The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

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Jul 23

Episode 327: Binge Eating, Protein & Satiety, Slow Eaters, Disordered Eating, Mental Health, Biohacking Conference, Denver, Brisket, Birthday Cake, OMAD, And More!

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Luca’s Keto Birthday Cake

Welcome to Episode 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 Packs of Bacon Free for a Year plus $20 off your first order!

AG1: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At drinkAG1.com/ifpodcast!

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melaneavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code Melanieavalon!

Episode 324: Air Purification, Biking, Protein Intake & Exercise, Bolus Intake Of Protein, Allulose, Monk Fruit, Erythritol, Stevia, Hormones, Blood Sugar, And More!

Go To Toneprotein.Com To Get The Vanessa's New Protein Supplement With An Exclusive Pre-Launch Discount!

join me next year at the 10th annual biohacking conference! go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference for more information.

Stay Up To Date With All The News On The New EMF Collaboration With R Blank And Get The Launch Specials Exclusively At melanieavalon.com/emfemaillist!

Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What Is The Difference Between Omad And Binge Eating? My Doctor Seems To Think These Are Synonyms And I Can’t Disagree More.

Characteristics of binge eating disorder in relation to diagnostic criteria

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #166 - Megan Ramos

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 327 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello everyone.

Melanie Avalon: And Vanessa, how is life in Colorado?

Vanessa Spina: It's just so amazing and awesome to be podcasting with you during the day [laughs] feels so good. For both of us, it's much better times. It's early afternoon for me, midafternoon for you. So, it just feels really good that I'm looking out the window. There're blue skies, it's bright and sunny, [giggles] it's not dark outside. It just feels really good. So, yeah, coming to you from the Mile High city.

Melanie Avalon: Which city are you in?

Vanessa Spina: So, we're just in Denver, a little bit outside Denver. So, I'm looking at the beautiful Rocky Mountains from the view of the office here. It's beautiful. It's just amazing here.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was looking at pictures on your Instagram. First of all, the house looks really beautiful. And you could see out through the window, it seems like elevated. The room that you were in with the birthday party dinner?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we're a little bit elevated up here. Yeah, it's really nice views all around. Colorado is so open. It's so different from Prague, I guess, because we're more in the city, but everywhere you look, everything's just like wide open. Like, big spaces, everything's big, everyone has huge homes. We call them like little castles, because in Czech, everyone lives in smaller spaces, because there's way less space. Everything's just like on steroids here. It's just the contrast. You don't really realize it until you leave, and then you haven't been back in a couple of years, and then you're like, "Wow, [giggles] everything is so different here." It's another world.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. And I was listening to one of your episodes, and I heard your story about craving brisket.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, [laughs] yes. It's number one on my list when we're back in the US.

Melanie Avalon: It's so good. And Luca was not so much a fan?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he loves brisket, like smoked meat and especially beef. It's pretty easy to chew for him as well, like, much easier than steak because it's broken down. But my number one thing, whenever we were at KetoCon would be to go to Terry Black's, which is across from the place where they host the conference. They have the most amazing brisket there. We have barbecue, American style barbecue places in Prague. But there's nothing like the real thing. So, I was really excited to get to have some while we were here. Yeah, it was a huge treat.

Melanie Avalon: Another question for you, because I think this will relate to a lot of listeners. So, you had an adorable birthday party for Luca.

Vanessa Spina: Just this weekend. Yeah, a couple of days ago.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Well, first of all, what did he think about the cake?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was so much fun. So, he's turning two and we did a blend for themes. We had Choo Choo Train because he's obsessed with Choo Choo's and that was his main gift, was a train set. And also, Cocomelon. He loves Cocomelon, which is this character on YouTube that plays songs like the Wheels on the Bus. And so, he's obsessed with school buses because of Cocomelon. So, we had a hybrid, like Cocomelon school bus, Choo Choo Train theme, and it was awesome. Everyone had so much fun. I made him this cake, which I was sending you pictures of. I don't bake a lot. Like, I literally only bake once a year, usually, for a special occasion. So, last year was his birthday. And this year, because I want him to be able to enjoy a birthday cake and have it not have all kinds of weird stuff in it. So, I made him Luca's birthday cake. The recipe is on my website, if you want to check it out. But it's basically a layer of vanilla, a layer of chocolate, and a layer of strawberry. This year, I just did vanilla and chocolate with a vanilla frosting. Everything sugar free and gluten free.

This year, I ordered keto sugar free sprinkles that I found on Amazon. So, I covered the whole cake around the sides in the sprinkles, and then I had these cake toppers of a little Choo Choo Train, and a big 2 that was dipped in gold. It was so cute. We brought the cake out. He was just mesmerized by it. [laughs] Last year, when he had a bite of it, he clapped. It was the first time he ever clapped. So, he was so excited. It was really cute, because we were all singing him Happy Birthday, and he was just like, "What is happening right now?" [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. How did you respond to eating it?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he liked it a lot. The cool thing is, the people who are here, half of them are into actually keto and low carb. They're the only people in my family that do like low carb. Not full keto, but low-carb paleo, really big into paleo, low carb. And so, they totally appreciate having a gluten free, sugar free cake. The other half are not at all, but they all enjoyed it. Everyone thought the cake was delicious. I know they weren't just saying it like they all really enjoyed it. So, it's fun when you can make stuff that's healthy. This cool thing about the sprinkles, they were sugar free. And instead of having all these dyes in it, they colored the sprinkles with turmeric, with, I think, a couple of other-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: I've seen those sprinkles.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was like turmeric, paprika, and something else. And so, they were really colorful, but they weren't neon like bright neon because of using artificial dyes. So, even if you're not doing keto or sugar free, if you're serving something to your kids, you want it to have all natural ingredients. So, it's fun that we could all enjoy something like a healthy-ish treat. Yeah, it was really fun to make, and everyone really enjoyed it.

Melanie Avalon: I think you can actually-- because I have gone down the sprinkle rabbit hole.

Vanessa Spina: That's why I was sending you pictures. I was like, "I know she loves sprinkles too."

Melanie Avalon: I've actually ordered, I think, the same ones that you have. I recognize them. I was like, "Oh, I have those sprinkles." I've seen recipes though to make your own. I haven't done it. I know you can order dragon fruit powder, which is neon pink. You can order there's a blueberry powder that's like neon blue, like, think if you actually wanted to make it like neon.

Vanessa Spina: That'd be fun. Yeah, and I know, I think is it [unintelligible [00:07:28] powder, is like bright pink, and it's vitamin C.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, it's pink?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's bright pink. Pink, pink. Super pink.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I thought they were going to use. So, when I saw turmeric and paprika, I was like, "Oh, wow, that's really interesting that they use that."

Melanie Avalon: Then chlorophyll is neon green. We should make a sprinkle line.

Vanessa Spina: Totally. I actually have a friend from growing up who started a sprinkles company, and she sold it. Yeah, it was really cute. She had a really fun Instagram. Because of course, if you're doing an Instagram account for that, it would just be really fun of confetti and sparkles and all our favorite things.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. What flour did you use in the cake? We can put a link to the recipe in the show notes.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, I just used two flours, which is mostly almond flour, and then one part coconut flour, because coconut absorbs so well. It's really mainly just those two for the flours. And then there's butter and vanilla. It's very simple, but really delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Which sweetener did you use?

Vanessa Spina: So, I wanted to try allulose.

Melanie Avalon: I thought you might. Okay.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we've been talking about it. So, I actually did a combination, because I wanted to test allulose for my protein powder, and just see how I liked it. I hadn't really tested it anything, I'm like, "This is a perfect test." So, for the cakes, I used mostly allulose and a little bit of monk fruit. And then for the icing, I used powdered erythritol, because I already had it in the powdered form, like the confectioner's form. Otherwise, if I was home, I would just put the granulated form of the allulose in the blender for 30 seconds, and it would make it into the super fine powder one for the icing, because you need the powdered one, I use that. The allulose was good. I think that everyone was surprised by how much it tasted like actual sugar, especially the people who don't eat keto or don't really like those kinds of sweeteners. At one point, even one of our guests was like, "You know, it's probably better to just use sugar or a little bit less sugar than artificial sweeteners." And I was like, "Wait till you try this one." So, I think it tasted very similar to sugar.

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. I really feel like allulose is the big thing now and we'll continue to-- I don't think I've used it before, but just from everything that I read, people seem to say that it doesn't have weird funky aftertaste and tastes very similar to sugar. And then when we talked about it-- We can put a link in the show notes of the episode where we talked about it extensively, but the studies are really interesting on it. So, potential health benefits.

Vanessa Spina: I think that's really interesting, the fact that it has potential health benefits as well. And also, I think the thing with Europe was that-- At first, I was like, "Oh, I think it's not allowed yet in Europe." When I was looking into it more, it seems that it's just because there hasn't been enough research done on it yet. But some German scientists recently submitted some research studies that they did about allulose. So, it's possible now that they'll have enough research done on it that they will approve it there. So, just side note for anyone who's in Europe listening.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. Are you actively formulating your protein powder right now?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I actually just got the first sample today, like, an hour ago from Scott.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting.

Vanessa Spina: I know. He sent me the sample to test, and just make sure that we're on the right track with the first flavor, which is going to be vanilla. Pretty much after we're done podcasting, I'm going to make a protein shake and try it out. I smelled it and it smelled really good. So, it's got stevia in it, because that's what we've decided to use for now. It's vanilla flavored and it has this special formulation which is unlike anything else, anything else that exists on the market in terms of protein to really optimize it for building lean mass in the most efficient way possible. So, I'm really excited. It's really exciting to be making something that just doesn't exist really on the market yet.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you. That's so cool, because there are so many protein powders on the market. It's so true though that I haven't seen any-- because basically, you're tailoring which amino acids are in it, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, exactly. I'll be sharing more and more on the exact formulation in the coming weeks. But yeah, there is a lot of competition in the space, and I think that's why I've always been drawn more to biotech, because making something like the Tone, like the breath ketone analyzer, it's something super unique, whereas a market like protein powder is a lot more saturated until it became the right time, because I really figured out and zoned in on what kind of formulation would make it unique to anything else. That part's super exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Not just unique for the sake of being unique, but unique because it's what needs to be done in a way. Nobody has done this and it's what you would want, presumably, to be using or will be using. I'm so excited for you. Okay, so how can people get on your email list for updates for it?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, thank you. So, I wanted to offer an amazing launch discount for anyone who is a part of this community or who listens over to the Optimal Protein podcast, and to offer the biggest discount that'll ever be offered on Tone Protein, and that is by signing up at toneprotein.com, you'll be added to the list. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll receive an email where you can double opt in, and you'll basically be the first to know when it's available to order, and you will also get that exclusive launch discount if you are interested in checking it out. So, yeah, hopefully, in the next couple of months, it'll be out and available to order.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. So exciting.

Vanessa Spina: Scott and I were talking this morning about shipping products to Europe, because I'm setting up a warehouse there, and so that would potentially open it up to shipping other products at MD Logic to Europe too. So, yeah, [laughs] it could be exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that would be so exciting.

Vanessa Spina: We're also talking about Australia, because Australia is a huge wellness market-- I have a warehouse set up there, so we could potentially start shipping out to new markets also for your supplements.

Melanie Avalon: That would be exciting. Especially, with Australia, they are really hard to ship to. If I want to independently ship something to them, it's really hard with their customs and everything-

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: -to get stuff in there, because I have tried.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, we will put links to all of that in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode327. So, we haven't talked since I went to the biohacking conference.

Vanessa Spina: I know. Tell me everything. You've given me some updates, but obviously, we all want to know how it all went.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, my goodness-- This was my first conference. It was my first conference in this sphere. As listeners know, unlike Vanessa, traveling is not my forte. So, I was a little bit stressed about the whole concept. But it was so amazing. I really, really highly recommend going to it next year. Next year, it's in Dallas, but it's basically-- So, next year will be the 10th annual biohacking conference. It's Dave Asprey's conference, whose side note will be coming on this show soon, hopefully. We're trying to lock him down. But it was really exciting, because it was the first time meeting all of these people I know through the podcast and including guests who have been on this show in real life. It was so weird. I got to meet Matt and Wade from BiOptimizers. They've been on the shows. I just feel like I know them. They've been on the shows, I think, five times total. So, I met them.

I met Catharine Arnston with ENERGYbits. I met, oh, Dr. Patel. I did an episode on glutathione with him. Of course, I met Dave Asprey, which was a very surreal, mind-blowing experience because I've been following him. Basically, him and Robb Wolf are the two people that really informed my-- I'm going to start crying with gratitude. [laughs] My journey in this world. It's like when I interviewed Robb and I almost started crying. It's just really surreal to be so affected, so influenced by people for the better in health and wellness and everything that I'm doing today. And then to get to meet them in person is, I'm really grateful for that. Why am I crying? Okay, so, I really highly recommend people attend. And also, I actually sprained my ankle the first day.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. I need to know what happened. This is the thing I wanted to ask you about, because you mentioned it and I was like, "What happened?"

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. So, I went two days before it started. So, the night before, I was just walking back to my hotel, and I just stepped off of a curb, and I twisted it. Have you twisted ankle before or sprained an ankle?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, no.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't either. It's really bad. [laughs] It's funny, because it didn't hurt when it happened. I was fine, and I went to Whole Foods, and I was carrying gallons of water, and everything was fine. I was in high heels. And then I went to bed, and then I woke up in the middle of the night, and it was the worst pain I have ever felt. I had to crawl on hands and knees to the bathroom. And then I was really stressed, because it was, like I said, the night before the conference started, I was like, "What do I do? I can't go to the biohacking conference like this." I went back to bed. I went to urgent care the next day. It wasn't broken, it was just sprained. But this was interesting and this could be a whole tangent.

I don’t ever-- Well, I don't want to say ever. I very rarely take pain medications. I try to stay away from pharmaceuticals as much as possible. And no judgment to pharmaceuticals, but they have a lot of side effects. So, I don't take pain medications is the point. I was in so much pain, and I was assuming they would prescribe me pain medications and they would not. They were like, "Not legally allowed to." I was just reflecting. And then I started crying in the urgent care. I was like, "But I'm in so much pain." So, opioids, because of everything that's happened historically in this country now, there's a lot of laws in place about prescribing them because of the opioid epidemic crisis that we've had.

Vanessa Spina: So, some people could be faking an injury to get them.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I was just reflecting on the sad state of affairs with the pharmaceutical industry, and that A, the pain medication is being over prescribed in the first place, and all the problems with addiction, that's just such a problem and such an issue. But then when you actually are, like, you do need it, I couldn't get it. I was like, "Who can I call?" I called my dentist, [giggles] but he didn't answer. I called my psychologist friend, but he wasn't able to prescribe. But interestingly, I don't even normally take Advil. So, I took Advil and I had no pain. So, yeah, and I got crutches, and I learned a new skill of using crutches.

Vanessa Spina: That's so crazy. This happened the night before the conference started?

Melanie Avalon: I know. And then this was a huge step for me, personally. So, that whole day was basically gone. I was at urgent care, but I had to go get my media pass for the conference, and it closed at 05:00. So, I was like, "I'll just sneak in." I had no makeup on, I was in crutches, and I have a lot of insecurities surrounding my physical presentation. So, I was like, "I'll just sneak in, grab my media pass and leave." But of course, I was running into everybody. So, by that point, I was just like, "Okay, I'll just be here like this," which was a big step for me. My therapist is proud. [laughs] It's funny. Actually, the first listener that walked up to me recognized me like that and I was shocked. I was like, "You recognize me?" I don't look like my Instagram right now.

Then just as a side note, I barely was at-- the whole first day was mostly lost, and I didn't go to everything that I could have. But even then, so many listeners came up to me, and it was so exciting, and it was so nice to connect with people, like listeners from this show in real life, and see how the content is resonating and how they're into this stuff now from listening to the show. So, friends, go next year. I will definitely be there in Dallas. And please come up to me. Oh, because multiple people told me they were nervous about coming up. Please come up to me and say hi, and we can be friends. I will have a discount code for the conference. I don't have it yet, but the link is melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. So, you can go ahead and go there and see all the details about next year. Then once I have the code, I will share it.

Yeah, and then just lastly though, I didn't even get to go to the-- I haven't talked to you about the content of it. So, there're so many speakers, including so many guests I've had on the show. So, speakers for my show like, Mercola was there, Max Lugavere, the BiOptimizers guys, of course, Dave Asprey, tons of people. And then there's this expo with all of these brands, like, hundred brands. They have their supplements, and their things, and there's stuff you can try. It's so cool. It's like going to a Disney World mall, but biohacking. Highly recommend. Well, next year, any chance we'll be in Dallas?

Vanessa Spina: Who knows? Yeah, maybe at that point, it would be so much fun. Just hearing you talk about it, it reminds me so much of the fun that I would have at KetoCon, when I went there-- It was just so amazing, like you said, to get to meet so many people in person or when I went on my book tour, just people showing up for you and wanting to meet you in person is just really it's just so humbling. Like, you really want to come meet me. It's just such an amazing feeling, and just getting to hug people and take photos together and talk about what it is, like you said, that resonated with them. That's what makes all of this so meaningful and special and worthwhile that we get to do what we love. We get to podcast and also share information in different platforms. But it's also that it's so meaningful because people will come up to you and be like, "You inspired me to start a podcast or to start this or to change my approach to protein or change my fasting or whatever, and it did this for me and I feel so good." And you're like, "Oh, my gosh." I just wanted to share what made me happy and feel good, but then you get so excited when you genuinely hear from people that it impacted them in some way too. It just makes it all so worthwhile.

Melanie Avalon: It is so true. Yeah, I think next year, maybe I'll try to organize a meet up or something for--

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be so fun.

Melanie Avalon: For the listeners, that would be really, really fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's such a great idea. Didn't Gin do some cruise or something?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they did like a Delay, Don't Deny cruise. I don't know how many times they did it. They did it at least once. So, it's awesome. And then just one really quick. I know, it's a long intro, but one really quick announcement. I am getting closer and closer to releasing my EMF blocking product line today. Hopefully, I think I got the final packaging. I love designing packaging. Do you like designing packaging?

Vanessa Spina: The absolute favorite part of the process for me. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It is so fun. I have to send you what I'm designing right now because it's so beautiful. So, the IARC, which is the International Agency for Research on Cancer, they classify EMFs as group 2B, which means possibly carcinogenic to humans. So, basically, there's ample evidence to suggest that EMFs are quite likely carcinogenic to humans. And we see this in a lot of studies, they basically affect the calcium channels in our cells. I just think it's a major issue with all of our Bluetooth and our wi-fi and friends, I shudder when I see people putting their phones up to their ears. Don't do that. There's a lot of interesting studies on men having phones in their pockets and how it affects sperm quality. And also, the potential for women keeping phones in their bras, for example, and how it might affect breast cancer.

So, in any case, I am creating a line of EMF-free/EMF-blocking products. I am partnering with R Blank, who has been on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, the brand is going to be AvalonX, powered by SYB. His brand is Shield Your Body. So, there's a lot of things I want to make, but we are launching with air tubes, headphones. So, again, when it comes to your phone, friends, please, please don't use Bluetooth AirPods. Please, I'm begging you. Speakerphone is great and corded earphones like you might get from Apple. But even those, release some EMF. So, that's why we're launching with EMF-free air tubes, and they're going to come in pink and black. I'm really excited about it. So, you can get on my email list to get all of the launch specials, all the details, the announcements, for right now, I have it at melanievalon.com/emfemaillist. I do have a website for it, but I haven't set it up yet. So, I think that's all the things. Should we jump into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would absolutely love to. Oh, and we have new artwork.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. [laughs] Happy new artwork day.

Vanessa Spina: Yay. I've been waiting and so excited for this.

Melanie Avalon: We have been working on this for months, listeners. The attention to detail is a little bit intense. We kept getting drafts back and I'd be like, "I think the heel needs to be adjusted to properly represent our heights.' Our artist, Barbara, was amazing in all the adjustments because we asked for a lot of them. I think it looks really amazing. What do you think?

Vanessa Spina: I absolutely love it, and I love that you hired an actual artist to do it, because I always found the artwork on the podcast to be really interesting and unique. I can see why now, because you were working with an actual print artist, and she was painting this. I think it's important for people to know she wasn't just creating a caricature or something in paint. This is legit. She was painting this. And then when she had to do revisions, she would put these overlays on top. That's why it took so long. It wasn't just because we were being specific, but also because it's like real art. It's just incredible.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like actual art. [giggles] Actual. Yeah, and I told you about how I know her, right? Did I tell you?

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. So, when I published my book in stores, the original concept, they hired her for the original concept art. So, my Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, that logo, that was the original book cover for my book. I loved it. I was obsessed with it. And then we were actually going to go with it, and then when Barnes & Noble signed on the book for one of their features, Barnes & Noble was like, "You have to change the cover." Isn't that interesting? So, we changed the cover, which I love the cover. Now I do. But I was so sad. I asked them, I was like, "Can I just buy the artwork from her because I want it for myself?" And then that's when I started working with her. So, she did the artwork. Actually, originally for my biohacking podcast, I used to get art done for each episode for the guest. So, she did that. She did Cynthia and I's artwork, and then she did you and me.

Vanessa Spina: It's really amazing. Yeah, I'm really happy with how it turned out. That funny story for listeners, Melanie knows this, but I was just looking over the artwork one night. I think it was a month ago or something like that. And my husband, Pete, walked in, and he didn't know what I was doing or anything, and he glanced over at my phone, and he was like, "Oh, look, it's you." And I was like, "Do you really think it's me?" And he's like, "Yeah, it's you." And I'm like, "That's amazing." He had no idea what it was, or I could have just been looking at like a cartoon or a different podcast or anything, but he right away recognized it. So, this artist, last thing I'll say on it is, she took multiple photos of both of us, and then created the art based on our likeness from these actual photographs. So, I just thought it was so cool that he walked in and said that. My husband's very direct. He never says anything he doesn't mean. So, I was like, "Wow, that's so neat that you really think so."

Melanie Avalon: I love that story. That makes me so happy. So, awesome.

Vanessa Spina: All right, enough, enough.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Okay. So, would you like to read the first question?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, our first question is from Kimberly and the question comes to us on Facebook. And the question is, "What is the difference between OMAD or one meal a day and binge eating? My doctor seems to think that these are synonymous and I can't disagree more."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I am very excited about this question. And before that, like Vanessa said, this was from Facebook. So, you can submit questions to the show to questions@ifppodcast.com or on Ifpodcast.com. I also am going to start asking for questions more in Facebook, because when I did that, we got so many questions. Vanessa and I were talking about it, it feels very fresh getting them right away. So, definitely join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. I'm going to start asking more for questions in there, so that if you want to get your question put to the front of the line, that might be a good way to make that possibly happen. So, okay, I'm really excited to talk about this because I think there is and I'll be curious your thoughts on this, Vanessa. I just feel like there's so much with intermittent fasting. There's a lot of skepticism and confusion as far as the mindset behind it and people thinking that it is disordered eating. So, I actually really wanted to go look at the DSM criteria for binge eating. We can just go through it and we can see, is it binge eating? And then I went down the rabbit hole after doing that because it's very interesting to me. So, shall we go through the criteria together?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that sounds perfect.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, in order to qualify as binge eating disorder-- Oh, and a little bit of a backstory. So, binge eating was actually recognized as a clinical condition as early as 1959, but it did not appear in the DSM until May 2013. So, that's when they came up with this criteria. There are five criterion, I learned a new word, that must be met. So, the first one is there has to be recurrent episodes of binge eating. In order to qualify as binge eating, it has to be two things. One, it has to be eating in a discrete period of time. For example, within any two-hour period. An amount of food that is definitely larger than most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. Okay, I want to zone in on that. But the number two is the sense of lack of control overeating during the episode. For example, a feeling that one cannot stop eating, or control what or how much one is eating.

Then I found this really interesting review of this. It was looking at the criteria, what does it mean? What can we learn from it? Should it be updated? That article is a journal article and it's called Characteristics of binge eating disorder in relation to diagnostic criteria. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. It was actually calling out some of the issues with this first statement, which is, it's very subjective. So, it basically says, an amount of food that is definitely larger than most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. That is not very definitive, even though it has the word definitely in it. So, when we look at fasting-- And she was asking about one meal a day, right, specifically?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, the difference between one meal a day and binge eating.

Melanie Avalon: And binge eating. Okay, with one meal a day, what do you think most, like, time wise, most people are eating in? That would actually be a really good poll to do. Do you think it's like two hours, three hours, four hours?

Vanessa Spina: For the intermittent fasting like one meal a day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: From personal experience, when I would do one meal a day, it would usually be like a standard meal within an hour.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. So, you would have an entire-- Yeah, I think some people do it like they do have an entire meal in a short amount of time. For me, this goes back to the great one meal a day debate that Gin and I used to have, because I eat over four hours or five hours. It's a very long one meal a day. But let's say two hours, for example, especially since that's the criteria that they give. So, you could look at this two ways. You could say, people doing one meal a day in two hours that they are eating larger than what most people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. Okay. I think if you stopped at a similar period of time, that would be true for a lot of people because when you're doing one meal a day, you're getting your entire amount's worth of calories in this small meal, which would be more than most people. But I think the key here is under similar circumstances. So, if we take into account that the circumstances are one meal a day, as practiced for intermittent fasting, where you need to get all of your calories in that one meal, then I think most people doing one meal a day, they're not eating a lot larger than people would eat in a similar period of time under similar circumstances, because the circumstances are one meal a day. How do you feel about that?

Vanessa Spina: For me, I would say the thing that stands out for me is not so much the period of time, if we can maybe go in a different direction with it a little bit, just in terms of my thoughts. For me, when I looked up the definition, it said that person feels a lack of control when they're having that meal. I think that is a big distinction. There's lots of distinctions between one meal a day, which to me is just a definition, like, eating one meal a day versus binging, which is associated with having an eating disorder or associated with disordered eating and feeling like there's no control. It's like a primal or like and. I know you've done episodes with experts on binge eating. I think I did one on my podcast years ago. But I know you had an author on-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: With Glen?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait. Okay, so fun fact. So, Glen is one of my best friends in the entire world. He's one of the people I called when I was in the urgent care. He's the psychologist. I called Glen. I was like, "Glen, can you prescribe me pain medications?" [laughs] Yeah, for listeners, he wrote a book-- Well, multiple books. He wrote Never Binge Again, which I highly recommend it, not even just if you identify as binge eating, it's really about just that lack of control and feeling like you don't have control around your eating, and that you're not when you are feeling controlled by your eating. It's really amazing. His whole philosophy uses this thing called the pig and you identify this voice in your head as not you, as this pig, and you talk to your pig and you just basically say no. It sounds really simple to say that you just don't, but you basically are just like, "No, I'm not listening to you right now." Sorry, that was a tangent. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, for me, the period of time seems, I don't know, ambiguous. For me, it was the fact that it is in the definition of what binge eating is. And forgive me, because I don't know a lot about it, but just looking at the definition that it is eating with a sense of not having any control. I think that that's the big difference that stands out for me the most, and also, obviously, the association with having disordered eating. I think to just to classify one meal a day and the definition of that as how people who do intermittent fasting approach it and just say, "Well, there's some overlap, so that means they're the same thing." It doesn't really hold up for me. The overlap being, like you said, the time period depending on how people do that, because it does seem to be part of that definition.

Whenever I do like OMAD or one meal a day, especially since I changed my macros over the years and really healed my relationship with food, I always feel a sense of control because it's really hard to overeat protein. I have to invoke the protein leverage concept by Drs. Raubenheimer and Simpson, these scientists who studied insects and primates and humans on protein leverage, and they found that we, as humans and animals and insects as well, tend to overeat energy calories when we don't get our protein needs met. I think that when I look back at my younger self, when I maybe did have situations where say, I would do a really restricted diet, and then I would feel like I couldn't wait for the diet to be done. And then when the diet was done, I would over consume, maybe at a meal. Maybe that could be considered a binge feeling. At the time, maybe I didn't fully have control. And again, I don't know that much about it, but I'm just relating it back to my own experience. It was because I wasn't prioritizing protein. It was because I was doing vegetarian/vegan diet at the time, and I was super under muscled and not getting my protein needs met.

That protein drive is so high that when I corrected my protein intake and started prioritizing it, I found actually the opposite happens where it's very hard to overeat protein because protein is so extremely satiating on multiple levels in terms of the hormones that are released in the gastrointestinal tract, in the brain or and that communicate with the brain, and just in terms of the overall satiety signaling that you get when you consume the right amount of protein. I've always felt totally in control of all my meals, whether it's OMAD or whether I'm eating three times a day or whether I'm on holiday at a buffet, I always feel like as long as I get the protein in that I feel satisfied and full.

So, I think in terms of being classified as binge eating, it would need to be assessed by a professional if that's something that someone is experiencing, maybe something in this definition resonates, to have it professionally diagnosed or professionally assessed. Because I think disordered eating is very serious and is something that definitely needs to be addressed if it's a problem because it can cause a lot of distress for people. But that's the key part that stands out for me is the fact that there's a lack of control. I think that probably characterizes it the most stories that I've heard from people experiencing that kind of sensation of like they just can't feel satiated. It's like this feeling of being a bottomless pit where just no amount is enough kind of thing. So, that's what stands out for me the most.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more, so that second criteria B for criteria one, which is the sense of lack of control overeating during the episode, feeling that one cannot stop eating or control what or how much one is eating. I echo back everything that you were saying. There's such a different feeling between feeling this need to just keep eating. And sometimes, it's satiety. I know people have all different experiences of it, but I think for a lot of people, it's like the dopamine hit that you keep getting. Some people might even feel full, but they just have to keep eating, and they feel like they have no control over compared to when people are in a one meal a day pattern, intermittent fasting, getting the protein they need, getting the nutrients they need, and it's working for them and their body. I think a lot of people feel completely in control.

I do just love that nuance of the first one about eating larger than most people would in a similar period of time under similar circumstances. That definition is assuming that you're comparing a one-meal-a -day situation to a normal dinner, which would not be the same circumstance. [giggles] You would need to compare like a one meal a day to a one meal a day and are you eating definitely larger than other one meal a dayers? I guess, that's the way that it would be looked at.

Vanessa Spina: It's a really good point. It's a really good point, the context of it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's criteria one. Criteria two is binge-eating episodes. You have to have three or more of five different things, so it's eating much more rapidly than normal. So, I guess you can look at yourself when you're eating that. Two, eating until feeling uncomfortably full. This will be really interesting polling information to see if most people who do one meal a day if they feel uncomfortably full or not. I don't when I do my one meal a day.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, me neither.

Melanie Avalon: I feel satisfied. C, eating large amounts of food when not feeling physically hungry. Oh, I'm always hungry for my [laughs] one meal a day. Eating alone because of being embarrassed by how much one is eating. So, interestingly, I do get embarrassed by-- Still all of these years later, I do get embarrassed by the idea or how much I'm eating. I guess, it depends on the context. But even when I go to dinners though, I'll sometimes get double entrees, which is fine.

Vanessa Spina: I feel like sometimes, I have the issue, which is like, I'm such a slow eater because I like to chew everything a lot. [giggles] It really helps with digestion. I'm a really slow eater, and sometimes I'll feel subconscious, because I feel like everyone around me eats fast. And then I'm especially right now, we're visiting families of lots of experiences, eating with lots of groups of people, and I feel like everyone has done really fast, and I'm just slowly [giggles] making my way through chewing everything. I'm like, "I'm still eating like that." Sometimes, I get subconscious about that. But yeah, if anything, I'm the opposite. [laughs] I'm eating at a slower rate than everyone else.

Melanie Avalon: I'm the same. We would do so well together at a restaurant. And then I told you I'll get sashimi dessert, like, savory desserts at restaurants.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, same.

Melanie Avalon: So, you do do that?

Vanessa Spina: In Europe, they have a lot of cheese for dessert. So, that's always a great option like a nice-- if you still feel like having something. Or sometimes if we're at a restaurant, I'll just be like-- Last night, Pete and I had a date night, and they had all these desserts on the menu. I was like, "I'll just have dessert when I get home." So, I usually make some yogurt dessert for myself when I get home or I'll have like a piece or two of LILY'S dark chocolate or something like that. And that definitely makes it feel like I'm still getting some kind of sweet, finish to the meal, which is always nice. But yeah, if I'm at the restaurant and everyone else is getting dessert, I think it's nice to still participate in that. And so, if there is something savory, that's always what I'll get as well.

Melanie Avalon: So, I remember my last birthday dinner that I went to with my family. Everybody ordered dessert, and I literally ordered another entree for dessert. I had more fish. It was so exciting because it was the other entree I wanted to try.

Vanessa Spina: That's really smart. I'm actually going to bookmark that mentally to do sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: But then as a note, and I think I've said this before, but let the kitchen know ahead of time because they usually can't make a-- It's hard for them to make another entree.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you would need to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Give them a heads up. And then the last criteria is feeling disgusted with oneself, depressed or guilty after overeating. I think that goes into what we were talking about earlier about the mindset, and the control, and how you're feeling surrounding the food. So, you have to meet both the first two criteria of the first thing we talked about, and you have to meet three of those.

Vanessa Spina: So, that's the time eating it.

Melanie Avalon: So, for criteria one, you have to have both these things. One, the discrete period of time, eating more than most people would eat in the same circumstances in the same amount of time. And you have to have a lack of control overeating while doing so. So, you have to have both of those. Then you have to have three of these five things, eating more rapidly than normal, eating until feeling uncomfortably full, eating large amounts of food when not hungry, eating alone because of being embarrassed by how much you're eating, and feeling disgusted with oneself depressed or very guilty. You have to have three of those.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, if you, at first glance, maybe are someone who's just hearing about the concept of one meal a day, maybe for the first time or something like that, I could see how maybe you might go like, "Oh, how does that compare to this," which is like you were saying, "How does this compare with this other concept of binge eating?" I think especially when people hear like, "Oh, well, you're only eating once a day," someone might jump to conclusions that it could be similar, whereas when you really look at everything in terms of the definitions. When I see the comparison, my mind goes like, "What?" [giggles] Because I know that intermittent fasting is a pattern of eating, and we're really well informed on what that means. But then you could see how someone might jump to conclusions if they don't have all the information. So, I love that you really looked at all the different aspects of what characterizes that kind of style of binge eating. Especially for Kimberly to be able to do the research herself and maybe talk to her doctor about it if she wants to and just say, "Well, this is actually what OMAD is, this is actually what binge eating is, and this is how they're different." Like, this is how they're not the same.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And there's actually going to be a twist ending to this because we're not even done yet.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, I love a twist.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Okay, so, criteria number three. So, we're not even done yet. You have to have those two. Criteria number three, you have to have marked distress regarding binge eating. So, you have to be distressed about the whole concept. Number four, it has to occur, on average, at least two days a week for six months, or one day a week for three months, which if people are doing one meal a day. That's probably the one criteria out of all of this that people are meeting.

Vanessa Spina: See, now, I actually think it's a bit irresponsible of a care provider to just casually throw it out there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Sorry. I'm getting so excited. I know.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Based on everything that you presented, it's saying like, "Oh, maybe that person's bipolar because they cut you off in traffic." It's such a leap and it could cause a patient, like, Kimberly distress in terms of something that makes no sense at all to what she's actually doing and that it should actually-- I was saying earlier, it should actually be diagnosed and assessed by an expert who knows the DSM-5, who knows these categorizations who would sit down with you and say, "Well, look, obviously that's not what this is." So, don't stress yourself out about it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you said that. I think that's why I got so into this, because I started reading it and I was like, "Oh, there needs to be education surrounding this." I think we just so casually throw around labels today, like, labeling people with disorders, and it doesn't speak to the whole person, and I think it can be very damaging.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it almost feels sometimes like a lot of terms from therapy have made their way into our language in a new way, where people use terms that typically would have just been reserved for people who are experts or clinicians or psychiatrists. Now people are just using these terms very casually, and I think it does have a harmful effect when someone throws up. I hear all the time, people say, "Well, that's gaslighting, that's narcissism." These terms have actual definitions to them. They need to be diagnosed by a professional and to just casually throw them around. I think, yeah, it can cause damage.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I'm actually prepping right now to interview-- Have you interviewed Dr. Caroline Leaf?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I feel like I heard of her book maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she has so many books. She's incredible. She's a cognitive neuroscientist, and her new book coming out is called How to Help Your Child Clean Up Their Mental Mess. It's really wonderful. But she actually has a chapter on the over diagnosis of ADHD. The stats on it are shocking. I wish I had them in front of me, but basically, there's only really small percentage that we think probably actually do have ADHD, but the percentages that are diagnosed are so high. She also talks about how the DSM criteria is determined, especially for something like ADHD. There's not really a lot of science behind it. It's very subjective. So, yeah, that's a tangent. Are you ready for the twist ending?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, criteria number five, the binge eating is not associated, not associated with the regular use of inappropriate compensatory behavior, such as purging, fasting, excessive exercise, and does not occur exclusively during the course of anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa. The caveat is that they're calling it inappropriate, so maybe it doesn't exactly relate. But basically, if you're fasting, it's not binge eating. If you're considering the fasting inappropriate, which we could argue that fasting is part of your daily lifestyle, so maybe this criteria would fit. But my takeaway, so, if you're making the case that one meal a day is disordered eating in its approach and it's binging, then you would be assuming probably that the fasting is an appropriate compensatory behavior as well. I think you would make that association if you're making that assumption about the binge eating, which means it's not binge eating, it's actually bulimia, which is a whole another set of criteria. Isn't that interesting?

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Yeah, I didn't think about that aspect at all.

Melanie Avalon: The only way it would still be binge eating would be, if you think the binging is inappropriate, but the fasting is appropriate. So, if you saw it that way, you're like, "Oh, the fasting is fine, but they're binging," then you could say it's binging. But if you're saying, they're binging and the fasting is compensating for that, it's not binging. It would be bulimia. Probably bulimia, because bulimia actually requires additional criteria. Isn't that crazy?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there's just so much to learn. I don't know a lot about disordered eating, and I'm learning a lot from this episode. I think it's interesting that, yeah, they definitely have different definitions and classifications. I just think that going back again to people throwing terms around too loosely or easily casually, I see that all the time with any kind of approach that I consider to be healthy lifestyle approach or intervention. With keto, it's like ketoacidosis, which has absolutely nothing to do with ketogenesis, but because ketosis is a shortened term for ketogenesis and sounds like ketoacidosis, which is a condition that only type 1 diabetics experience for the most part when they're having massive dehydration issues, and extremely high uncontrolled ketones, and extremely high blood glucose.

Several years ago, although thankfully, it's changed now through education, which you were talking about the importance of education. Thankfully, people now recognize, especially physicians that those are two separate things. I love physicians. Some of my best friends are physicians. So many of my friends are doctors, and I respect and admire them so much. But there was a time maybe like six years, seven years ago where a lot of physicians would just say, "Oh, keto, don't do that. That's ketoacidosis. That's the lack of education and understanding that there was." So, that's what it reminds me of a little bit is just like, "Oh, fasting or intermittent fasting, that's an eating disorder." These kinds of things are thrown around really casually without actually looking at what the definitions of each are. Again, it's really important that we educate everyone on what these things actually mean and the distinctions between them.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's a brilliant analogy, and so true. That's bothered me as well so much. It's so frustrating, especially when you see it happen and you're just like, "Oh my goodness." And it's less now. Like you said, it used to be a little bit worse. It still happens. So, people are curious. For bulimia, it's pretty similar. You have to have recurrent episodes of binge eating just by the first two criteria that we talked about, so the discrete period of time and the lack of control. And then you have to have compensatory behavior that's inappropriate. So, that's where the fasting comes in, but vomiting, laxatives, diuretics, exercise. And then has to occur on average at least once a week for three months. And then here's the big criteria that's different for bulimia versus binge eating, or one of them is you have to be unduly influenced by body shape and weight. It also cannot occur while--

So, the binging and purging cannot happen if you have anorexia. So, it's really, like you said, and I sound like a broken record, but I really do think it's irresponsible for people, especially doctors, to throw around these labels without looking at what the actual criteria is. And then I'll just throw on just some very last quick other things that go beyond the DSM for binge eating. So, interestingly, so there's actually studies that indicate that binge eating is probably heritable. So, it clusters in families independent of obesity, and families with a history of binge eating are at a greater risk of obesity. I don't think we would say that one meal a day is heritable. [laughs] I think people make the decision to do it independent of their genetics or their family history.

Then binge eating is highly associated with psychiatric and medical comorbidities, functional disability, and impaired quality of life. So, when people engage in this behavior, it really negatively can affect their life. They've even done studies where it affected all criteria for negative quality of life. Compared to fasting, I feel like people do one meal a day and it changes their life for the better. That's a big difference there.

Vanessa Spina: Megan Ramos and I just had a really interesting discussion on my most recent interview with her on the Optimal Protein podcast, because she just came out with her new book all about intermittent fasting for women. That was one of the topics that we really talked about was like, what is the messaging that you want to get out there with your work and your book? It's basically that women get such bad messaging about how we're all doomed to basically just get uglier and fatter as we get older. And she's like, "No, you can be empowered. You can control your metabolic health and your waistline. There are tools out there that you can use." These tools are not the same thing as having problematic or disordered eating patterns. They're not the same thing. It's weird that they're often lumped together, because there's some maybe association with the word, fasting. But she really helps clarify in her book. I highly recommend her book as a resource for anyone who's interested in that.

But I also highly recommend that anyone who listening to the definitions and the criteria that you presented so eloquently, if any of those really resonated for you know, I would definitely recommend speaking to a clinician, someone who can assess you, especially if you're feeling distressed, because that was one of the criteria. If any of this resonates with you, if it feels familiar to you, if you think you may be experiencing some of it, and you are feeling distressed, definitely seek professional help because eating disorders are very serious things. I think that it's very important to reach out either to a friend or to someone who can give you a professional assessment if it's something that is causing you any kind of distress. I think that's definitely something that we both want to underline.

Melanie Avalon: I am so, so glad you ended with that. Yes, the purpose with this was twofold. One, to dismantle some of the myths about labeling people who are doing fasting in a healthy way for themselves mentally and physically, putting some clarity that that is not binge eating for them. But then on the flipside, people who are experiencing these issues with eating disorders or binge eating, and might be hiding that with fasting or fasting might be exacerbating that, hopefully, this is helpful for them to find a mental health practitioner to work with for that. So, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful.

A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there, or join our Facebook group or my Facebook group which is IF Biohackers. I'm going to start asking more for questions in that group. So, look for the posts about that. You can just post questions in that group as well if you like. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode327. We talked about a lot of things, so there will be lots of links, and there will be a full transcript, which I know is very helpful. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I really enjoyed the question from Kimberly, and the whole episode, and getting to catch up with you, and I'm excited to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Okay, talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Jul 16

Episode 326: Weddings, Castles, Ice Baths, Running, Hypoglycemic Response, Electrolytes, Sugar Free Gum, Strong Cravings, Autophagy, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 326 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I am doing awesome. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. We were saying last week or actually two weeks ago, because I think last week we had our fabulous episode with Paul, hopefully since we haven't recorded [laughs] it yet, but manifesting putting that out there. I was going to tell you about my experience at my brother's wedding.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I can't wait to hear everything.

Melanie Avalon: I decided-- I love weddings. Do you like weddings?

Vanessa Spina: I do, yeah. They're so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: It's so exciting because it's seeing people and hanging out and like, drinks and food and fun. But then it's also family and then the blend, did I tell you the blend of families at this wedding?

Vanessa Spina: Um-mm.

Melanie Avalon: So [chuckles] on my mom's side of the family, her side of the family is Southern, but very Christian, very religious, like conservative. Then my dad's side of the family is like, Southern, more like to have a good time, just a different vibe. [chuckles] And then on her side of the family, the bride's side, her father is Jewish, so there was a whole Jewish culture. It was actually a Jewish wedding. And then her mom is Puerto Rican, so everybody flew in from Puerto Rico. So, it was like this blend of families. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: It's just crazy to feel all the dynamics. So even like at the dance party, at the end, half the songs they're playing were all these Latin America songs that none of us knew, but they all knew, like, every word too. And it was my first Jewish wedding. I'd never been to it. Have you been to a Jewish wedding?

Vanessa Spina: I actually have never been to one.

Melanie Avalon: It was nice to see the traditions.

Vanessa Spina: I've seen it, it's so beautiful.

Melanie Avalon: Like in general Jewish weddings.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I've just seen some of the traditions in movies or shows and they just look so neat.

Melanie Avalon: It was exciting. I feel like it was educational and it was at a winery, which was fun. And I did successfully sneak in my Dry Farm Wines because if I'm going to be drinking more than normal, I have to have my organic low alcohol wines. So, I did that successfully. So that was helpful [laughs] for having a lot to imbibe in. But some takeaway highlights were my parents got down on the dance floor, which was-- I was not anticipating that. So that made my life beyond belief. My life is complete. And then I did give a bit of a speech. Have you given a speech before at a wedding?

Vanessa Spina: I was my best friend's maid of honor and it was huge, they had so many guests. I did a speech in front of all of them and it was really special but nerve wracking.

Melanie Avalon: Had you written it out and read it or how did you do it?

Vanessa Spina: I think I had notes. I think I had notes for it. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I kind of had like an outline as a joke. I got ChatGPT to write some of it because my brother and I always talk about ChatGPT. And then I just brought in some personal stuff as well. It was really fun. But then the funny moment for me [laughs] "Oh, I'm trying to decide if I should share this." So, my brother is he's younger, he's like 20-- I should know this. I think he's like 28. His wife, crazy, she's like 25, 26. Everybody was mostly younger as far as like the bridal party and everything. And so there [chuckles] was the party at the wedding and then the winery and it was amazing. And then we went to like, the "after party." I literally felt like I was back in college because it was like, at the groom's-- like the house where the groomsmen and the bridesmaids were staying. It was like old school, college vibes. [laughs] I was like, [laughs] "This is so fun." I saw somebody across the room who looked older. I was feeling like a little bit out of place. I literally just walked up to him and I was like, "Hi, you look old. Can we be friends?" [chuckles] Literally, that was my opening line. I was like, "How old are you?" And he was like, "I'm 38." And I was like, "Oh, great." [laughs] I was like me and you, we're talking. But then what's really funny is it was my brother's boss [laughs] who flew in for the wedding. So, I became like friends with his boss, which was just like precious.

Vanessa Spina: Became besties.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It was a really fun time, though, all around and it was really beautiful. The North Georgia mountains are very, very beautiful. There's like wineries. It's like very unexpected.

Vanessa Spina: That sounds gorgeous.

Melanie Avalon: So now, I want to go to another wedding. People need to get married [chuckles] so I can go hang out. That's my life. What's new with you?

Vanessa Spina: That sounds amazing. That sounds like so much fun. We had a really fun weekend too. We had a lot of fun, a lot of family fun. And we had a little birthday party for one of Luca's little friends, Maya. His little girlfriend was turning two, so we had--

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait. Pause, his girlfriend?

Vanessa Spina: No, not really his girlfriend, but him and Maya, they're just like two peas in a pod. They're almost the exact same age. So out of all their little friends here, him and her, they kind of get each other. They're always going through similar stages, and they're really cute. Like, Luca will feed her blueberries or I don't know. They're just so cute together. So, it was her birthday party, and we had, like, a barbecue in the park, this beautiful park in Prague. And we all brought, like, whatever we wanted to grill. Their extended family was all visiting from Arizona, so it was really fun to have all them there. And we just had a great time celebrating with them. And it was just a really fun weekend. They've had this thing called Children's Day here. And so, on Saturday, went to the Castle Royal Gardens, and they had this sort of recreation of what like a medieval carousel would look like. And I was actually asking them if it was the original, because Pete and I were debating if it was the actual original carousel from back then, and she said it's not, but they rebuilt it to look like the one in her grandfather's pictures. So, it was like, it was a good recreation of an original medieval style carousel with just all this so beautifully hand painted and gorgeous. There's just been all these events like that around the city, so Luca's gotten to go on all these carousel rides and stuff and he loves it. So, it's really fun just to have activities like that to go and do. And the weather has just been so sunny and amazing. Just glorious, sunny summer days.

Melanie Avalon: A carousel? Like a moving carousel? Like a ride. They had those in the medieval times.

Vanessa Spina: Apparently, they did? [chuckles] Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: What motorized them?

Vanessa Spina: There's one. So, the guy, like, cranks it.

Melanie Avalon: A guy's pumping it?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. He's like crank. And so, this one had like it was all wooden, and it was beautifully painted. And then they had these little boxes, so Pete and Luca sat in one. But there's another one near our house in the park that's from, I think, about 100 years ago or 150 years ago. And it's from Italy, and it's original, and it's the one with, like, the horses that go up and down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, that's what I'm picturing.

Vanessa Spina: So beautiful, it's so beautiful. And it's actually, like, authentically from that time. And that one's really fun, too. We can sit on the horse and stuff. I have a reel on my Instagram where Luca and I are on it together.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. I'm going to go find that ASAP.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's from last summer.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Just fun little things like that from another time. But as I was telling you last week, we're so excited to go visit more castles, and a lot of the castles here are actually were inspiration for the Disney Castles. I have to send you pictures of that. There's this one, it's about 2 hours south of here and it looks like the actual Disney, like, the main Disney Castle. Like, I'm pretty sure it's the one that inspired their creation of it. And it's so amazing because they have all the original furniture in it. All the original chandeliers like I was telling you. And you can walk through. It takes a couple hours to do a tour and it's so stunning. But I have to send you a picture of it because you'll be like, "Oh, my gosh, that's the Disney castle."

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. I want to live in a castle.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, same. [laughs] I always walk through, and I'm pretending that this was my house.

Melanie Avalon: You live there? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] This is my house. And this is, like, my little window sill where I would read books or write poems [laughs] or I don't know, whatever they were doing, like, stitching, needle points or whatever at the window. It just sounds tranquil.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Although we probably really idolize it. Can you imagine, like, the bathroom situation back then?

Vanessa Spina: That's not the medieval thing. You don't want a medieval bathroom, like no.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. And just, like, family dynamics, people. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think life was very good for just a few people. For most people, it was not very good. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I shouldn't laugh, but yeah, it's a gratitude moment, and I realize even now there are people privileged, but I'm just very grateful to not be, like, a peasant.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. The average person like today's peasant lives and I'm talking about the average person ourselves compared to those kings and queens back in the day, even an average person with a decent income has better bathroom situation than a king 100 years ago. You know what I mean? Our comforts, we talk a lot about the plagues of prosperity, like, the different issues we have from our convenient lifestyles, but we're so comfortable compared to-- we have things that emperors and kings and queens in the past would have only dreamed of. So, I think we have it pretty good. I agree. Thankfulness moment.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it really becomes present when you lose it. Like, when the power goes out or the water is not working, and you're like, "Wow, I really need to not take this for granted." It's kind of mind blowing. Even the shower, I can just go in this little room and turn on this thing. And water comes from the ceiling any temperature I want and immediately gets taken care of. It's not messy. [laughs] Everything I don't know, modern life, I appreciate it.

Vanessa Spina: It's about that every day. I'm thankful every day for my kitchen, for our bed, for the dishwasher. Everyday I'm like, "Pete, dishwashers are amazing." You put it on and it cleans everything for you. We have it so good.

Melanie Avalon: We really do.

Vanessa Spina: Technologies, amazing technologies. We're talking to each other right now from across the world. Like, we would have had to take a steamboat or something for, like, two months to have a conversation at a different time.

Melanie Avalon: Or, like, texting now. It's like the modern-day equivalent of writing letters. Think about how much you stress writing a text to your lover. And now think about if you could only do it via letters. And it was like months and months in between.

Vanessa Spina: caring.

Melanie Avalon: You wouldn't know if you've been ghosted because the turnaround time [laughs] is already like ghosting time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It feels like you have to be so patient.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: But it also sounds kind of romantic.

Melanie Avalon: It does. Did you ever send actual letters with people?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. When Pete and I first met, I sent him a letter with a CD I made for him. I think it was like a CD with mp3s on it of songs that made me think of him. And he loved it. [laughs] He was so excited and thrilled. And because we did long distance for a long time when we first met, I was in Canada, in Vancouver and he was in Denver. We really got to build such a beautiful friendship because we were just getting to know each other a lot. Just, like, talking to each other on, like, what was the messenger? We were on some chat on the computer. We would message each other on there. We would text, we would email, we would call each other, and then we would get to see each other. And it was so romantic. He'd come pick me up at the airport and take me on amazing dates, and then he asked me to go to Hawaii with him. After we had-- I think we'd been on two or three dates of seeing each other in Vancouver and Colorado.

He's like, "Do you want to go to Maui?" I was like, "Yeah." [laughs] So went to Maui together and we took, I think it was like a week holiday or something. And it was amazing because we're dating long distance. Like, normally a long-distance relationship, you're like, together and then you have to live apart. But dating long distance is totally different. So, we kind of had to figure out, is this going to work out? Is this worth dating long distance? We had to get to know each other a little bit faster, and that was, like, the best way. We had the most incredible romantic time there together. I just remember being in my pajamas, like, brushing my teeth with him, and I was like, this is so weird. I don't really know him that well. [laughs] And we're like brushing our teeth with our pajamas on, but it was so amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We're so similar because when I had a long-distance relationship, I was all about it for all of the reasons you just said. Like, you get to know the person through talking, so it's like all conversations and you don't get to know them one level physically. I don't know. You were talking about, like, cultivating the friendship. I feel like you get a lot of that aspect and then it's just, like, so magical when you actually are together because it's very limited treasure time. So, it's like magical romance and I need my space. So, I was like, "This is great." I was like, "I was made for long distance relationships."

Vanessa Spina: They're so great.

Melanie Avalon: We should write a book about it. I remember I was, like, looking up all the stats when I was in it because apparently the stats are not favorable. I was like, "I don't know. I'm down. This works for me." And I've said this before-- I don't know, if I'll ever be married, but I don't know if I could live with somebody. And if I did, I think I would still need my own bedroom. I need my space.

Vanessa Spina: I used to always say I would need a separate wing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: No matter the size of the house, I would need my own area.

Melanie Avalon: In our castle.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. In the castle, exactly, exactly. I think it keeps a little bit of the romance alive longer when you have your own bathrooms that’s definitely--

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if that would-- not that would solve relationship problems. But it's kind of a cool hack.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It really, really helps if you can do it just to have your own space. My husband uses

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have separate bathrooms?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, he uses our hallway/guest bathroom and I use our bedroom one. And it actually works out great for him because he has one of those standing showers in the what's it called? The door. [chuckles] It's got a door to it. I don't know what they're called. Just a shower with a door. Whereas mine is like a bathtub with a shower. So, we each have our preferences and it works really well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you take baths?

Vanessa Spina: I take ice baths. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I need to get on that.

Vanessa Spina: The only kind of bath I take lately. But I did like in the last six months, I think a couple of months ago I was having some muscle soreness, which I never have. And so, I did an Epsom salt bath and it was amazing. It really helped.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I've actually never done one, actually. I might have a long time ago. But people swear by those. Think about what people-- just to bring this awful circle, think about people back in the old times and how often they could take baths and showers. Their hair was probably really greasy.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I think maybe in some ways it was better because you'd have more natural oils in your hair whereas I think we tend to now like over bathe.

Melanie Avalon: That's true. They might not have had as much of the rebound effect from responding to all these stripping products. Yeah. Well, [chuckles] on that note, I will just make a really quick announcement, because the day this airs, tomorrow is the last day to get grandfathered in for life for my berberine subscription. So, friends, if you've been wanting to take control of your blood sugar levels with berberine, which is an herb that's been used in ayurvedic and Chinese medicine for thousands of years, can have a profound effect on your blood sugar, your cholesterol levels, even your gut microbiome, and can activate longevity pathways like AMPK. You definitely want my AvalonX Berberine. I sound like a commercial right now, [chuckles] but I'm not reading anything. I'm just saying this. Tomorrow is the last day to get a subscription for life and you can pick either two bottles every two months or two bottles every three months. And doing so is going to help us figure out what you guys most want when it comes to launching a large bottle option, which in the end is the most sustainable option for everybody. So definitely get that. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. And then would you like to give your landing page for your Tone Protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. If you would like to get the launch discount, make sure to go toneprotein.com and sign up with your name and email so that you can get the launch discount. It'll be the biggest discount that will ever be had on it. So definitely sign up if you're interested in checking out the protein that I am making. And it is going to be scientifically optimized for muscle protein synthesis in a way that no other protein powder does. So, I am super excited about it and that's at toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have a question from Evie, and the subject is actually questions for Vanessa. So, she has two questions, but of course we can both answer these. So, question one for Vanessa. She says, "I have been low-carb for years, mixing it up with being in ketosis. I am hardly ever hungry and feel good and healthy at the age of 48. What does it mean/what happens when I have a sweet cake and an hour later, I feel cold, sweaty and no energy?" So, I think we can answer that.

Vanessa Spina: So, my first-- Hi, Evie thank you for your question. And it's great that you've been doing low carb and sort of mixing it up with being in ketosis and sounds like you don't have out of control hunger and you feel good and healthy. But what I would say, my initial thought is that it's a hypoglycemic response and sometimes people who do a keto or low carb, they get a kind of hypoglycemic response, which is just temporary or transient. And it's because your body is not used to receiving these higher carb loads at one time because you're more optimized for fat burning. So, if you do eat something that's like really sugary or processed like a sweet cake, then it probably will send your blood glucose a lot higher than if you were eating carbs all the time. And it's just sort of a temporary response. So that's probably why you're having that, is that your blood sugar is going a lot higher. And then because it's going so high, it's then dropping quite low afterwards. And that's usually what that means if you feel like a cold sweat and no energy. But I'm not a doctor by any stretch, so I would definitely ask a properly trained doctor about that.

If you have concerns about it, just note that it's very common for people who do keto and low carb and then they eat something that they don't normally eat because you're just not trained to. If you were to go back and eat carbs for a week and then have a sweet cake, then you probably wouldn't have that effect, I'm guessing. But because you're so optimized for fat burning, your body doesn't-- it gets kind of overwhelmed by all of that sugar hitting all at once when it's not used to having much in there. And the body's always optimizing for whatever you're giving it on a regular basis. It's always preparing. And so, if you're eating carbs on a regular basis, it's ready to go. It goes, "Oh, I know what this is, it's carb coming in, I have the insulin ready to go to get the blood sugar under control so it doesn't go too high." But then when you're eating keto and low carb, you're not all ready for that. Your body not as primed for that, so it can send blood sugar higher than normal, and then you may have a low. But again, I'm not a doctor, so you'd need a professional interpretation of it. But I'm just thinking that's what it could potentially be. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I think I read it wrong. I think I said cold, sweaty, and it's cold sweat, like you were saying. That was my exact thoughts. Because basically when you get that swing up and then that drop, the body will often respond with like cortisol and adrenaline to raise back up your blood sugar, and that can create those cold sweat feelings. So, it's probably what's going on. This would be a great example of somebody who could benefit probably from wearing a CGM if you haven't. And actually, on today's episode, I did not plan this, but NutriSense is a sponsor of today's episode and I love using their CGMs. And if you wear a CGM, it's basically a continuous glucose monitor and it gives you a real time picture 24/7 of your blood sugar levels and how you are responding to food. It's technically testing your interstitial fluid, but it is a reflection of your blood sugar.

If you were wearing that during this experience, Vanessa, you could see if that is what's happening and what that would look like. It would go up and then drop down. So, yes, our code for NutriSense, you can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30 and it will also get you one month of free dietitian support. And the cool thing about the dietitian support is they will actually help you interpret what you're seeing on the CGM and give you guidance and advice. So, it's a very, very cool thing.

Okay. Her second question, she says, "What is important to eat in real food form as a lifelong runner?" I ran my first marathon last year. I don't take any supplements ever. I feel healthy now, but I don't want my joints to suffer. I want to be able to run as long as I can. I don't take collagen or protein or energy bars as I don't feel the need, but I worry it may catch up with me. If you recommend any products, please bear in mind, she lives in Prague. [chuckles] She says, "I live in Prague. I like you live in Prague and may not be able to get things." Thank you. I do have a quick question before we answer this. Vanessa being in Prague, is there an Amazon Prague?

Vanessa Spina: There's an Amazon Germany, so I do order from them a lot. But I usually-- if there's anything that I specifically can't get here, I usually just stock up on it when we're home, and there're a few things that I can get here, but they're just like two, three times the price. So, like, my magnesium calm, I always get that. I think Natural Vitality, I always get some of those when we're home. I bring back lots of LMNT, LMNT packs and there are certain things that now, over time, I've been able to find local replacements for most of them, but at the beginning, they didn't have as many things, so I was, like, bringing over more or my friends or family would bring stuff over also when they came. So, with availability, I would say it's gotten a lot better in even just the last five years. There're all these companies now that have supplements and all kinds of things and it's really popped up in the last few years. It's way more accessible.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Yeah. I think I was sharing with you when I was trying to mail you some Beautycounter stuff. I learned [chuckles] all about shipping. I literally went everywhere.

Vanessa Spina: It's so funny because I ship myself stuff all the time from my warehouse. I wonder what-- it's funny, but I'm so glad that you figured out in the end, even though you had to jump through so many hoops to send it to me.

Melanie Avalon: So that experience and then I mentioned him before recently, Mark Schatzker, who wrote The Dorito Effect, I was getting a signed copy of it. He lives in Canada and I was trying to get a signed copy of his book for a friend. I was trying to just send him money to reimburse him to Canada and that was a hassle. I literally went everywhere. I was like, "Why is this so hard?" This should not be this hard. But yeah, with the post office, they didn't even have Prague in the computer.

Vanessa Spina: That's so crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Just wasn't there.

Vanessa Spina: So funny, though.

Melanie Avalon: It's like okay, [chuckles] that's how we handle things.

Vanessa Spina: [unintelligible [00:27:20] this country, like what?

Melanie Avalon: It's like an ostrich putting its head in the sand. So, DHL was what ended up being the best option in case people are wondering, at least for me for international shipping.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. DHL, FedEx usually is great. UPS, it all comes here, [laughs] really, but it's gotten better and better. But I totally understand where you're coming from, Evie, because Evie, I know sometimes it's harder to find some of the products that you'll see online or you'll hear people using. And it's frustrating sometimes because sometimes you do find them. But for some reason, imported products are, like, two to three times as much as they normally would be. So that can be frustrating too but it's a really great question. Now, I think the traditional thinking with running is always like carb loading, etc. But I think there are certain sports where a low carb can really actually give you an advantage. And especially if you're doing like a marathon, anytime you're operating between 60% to 70% of your VO2 max, or you're doing that kind of aerobic activity where you're burning lots of fat, it's going to be advantageous to be a fat burner. So, you may have even felt that while you're running.

The biggest thing, I think, that trips people up can be the electrolytes. So, if you can find a good electrolyte supplement, Melanie and I love LMNT, and they have amazing flavors with the electrolyte packets as well. And that's something that I always take with us when we're doing any kind of like hiking or especially if it's going to be dry. And sometimes if I don't have access to that, I'll just sort of make my own electrolyte drink. And I'll do that with some salt and magnesium powder. And it's really the salt I think that's important, especially when it comes to doing endurance. If you're not eating as many carbs, it's going to be a little bit more of a challenge for you to retain electrolytes because your kidneys won't reabsorb as many electrolytes and so you'll sort of release more water and it can become harder to hold on to them. So, supplementing with electrolytes, I think, can be a big thing.

In terms of the foods, like I said, you could either go the carb route and eat lots of carbs and carb load before your races which some people do, but they tend to hit that wall once they run out of the glycogen stores in the liver and muscles. Whereas if you're a fat burner, it's possible to not hit that wall in the same way because you're not running out of glycogen like you're already primed to be fat fueled. I've actually never run a marathon and I don't know what the experience would be like, but I know that if you're doing intense activity, you definitely have to keep the electrolytes up in terms of what foods to eat or supplements. There's more and more protein bars and protein supplements and protein-type foods available here. I've seen them more and more. There's nothing really super special that I would recommend other than finding some local electrolytes. And I use LMNT, so I don't know what they would have potentially available in Europe. Maybe there's something similar. I don't think LMNT ships to Europe yet.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Vanessa Spina: There might be an electrolyte drink that does ship here or you can look up online different ways to make your own. It's pretty relatively easy to do and other than that, I can't think of any specific foods that would, like, whole foods or supplements that you would take to enhance running. I think just being adept at fat burning, being fat fueled can potentially give you an advantage if you are sort of in that heart rate zone. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Sorry, I got distracted. I was looking up where LMNT ships. It says they actually do ship to most countries. They have a list where they don't ship. Prague is not on that list, so it is possible that they ship there.

Vanessa Spina: I'm going to try to check out while you answer and see if it will ship to me here. I've never tried. I just usually get it when we're home. What are your thoughts on her second question?

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you brought attention to the electrolytes. I definitely agree. I as well do not have marathon running experience, so my apologies there. I agree with everything Vanessa was saying about how low-carb diet can work really well for a lot of distance running for the reasons she said about not hitting that wall. So, I understand about the want and the need to consume foods in real food form, which I totally love. So just to speak specifically, because you're talking about like joint health and stuff like that, so collagen, a lot of people do benefit from supplementing collagen. MD Logic Health has a great collagen that people can check out. If you don't want to take supplemental collagen, you could focus on whole food meat with a high glycine ratio. So gelatinous meats, if you're having chicken, like eating all of the whole chicken, so you get the meats around the tendons and all of that. Making bone broths or meat broths can be a good way to up that glycine ratio and get the collagen benefits without necessarily taking a collagen supplement.

And then as far as protein, yes, I'm totally down with whole foods form protein. If protein powders are not a way that you want to go, same with energy bars. But it does go back to just making sure that you're able to absorb and getting all the protein that you need. And some people struggle with that more than others and especially athletes probably have higher protein intake. So just making sure that you are getting what you need and if not, possibly supplementing accordingly. I'll make a brief plug because you're talking about your joints again. So, anything anti-inflammatory will be pretty beneficial for that. So, I really love my serrapeptase supplement, which was the supplement that I launched AvalonX with, just because it can be so anti-inflammatory and really help people with their joints.

It's a proteolytic enzyme, so when you take it in a fasted state, it goes into your body and it breaks down problematic protein buildups and can really help resolve inflammation and sort of be protective on that front. So that might be something to proactively take and then continually take. And then just like anti-inflammatory diet in general with the joints. So going back to that whole food protein, eating a lot of fish with a high omega-3 ratio can be something really great to focus on, low mercury omega-3 fish. So, I love The Better-- it used to be called Australias, now it's called The Better Fish Barramundi. You can get it at Whole Foods and Costco. I am obsessed with this fish. It's a lean whitefish, but it actually has the highest omega-3 ratio of any whitefish and it's tested to be free of mercury. I love that fish. It's a great protein to have. And then salmon, sardines, scallop, shrimp, things like that can be great on the protein front. Yeah, I think focusing on the anti-inflammatory diet sounds like the low carb will probably work well for you or is working well for you with the marathon and focusing on the electrolytes. Did it work, by the way, Vanessa, to ship?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it does ship here to Prague. So, if you want to order it and I know we both have links for LMNT as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, so the link for this show is drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and that will get you whatever the current offer is. So, when you go to drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast, you'll get a free gift with purchase, so you'll actually get a free element sample pack with any order. So that's really awesome. It includes all of their flavors to try. So again, that is drinklmnt.com/Ifpodcast. And then one last little piece about it. A podcast I was listening to recently, Vanessa, they were actually saying that BCAAs also could help with hydration, similar to the way electrolytes do. Have you heard that before?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't. I wonder what the mechanism of action would be.

Melanie Avalon: They were talking about it. It's the same-- [laughs] it's the same episode that I talked about recently with other-- I'm going to send you this episode and I'm dying to hear your thoughts and then maybe we can circle back on some of the points because it was interesting. It was an interview with Kion for their BCAA supplements. So, shall we answer another question?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, the next question is from Ben and the subject is, "Does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra ruin most of the benefits of intermittent fasting?" "Hey ladies, I love, love, love all three of your podcasts." I listen every day during my fasting to keep me motivated. I'm a 36-year-old man who has been intermittent fasting for three months. I've lost weight. I feel absolutely great overall. Still five pounds to lose, but not as worried about that since I feel great. I am curious though does chewing sugar free gum, like, extra completely ruin the benefits of intermittent fasting when eaten during the fasted state? I also count my calories and macros, so that may be the reason for my weight loss. I know intermittent fasting has helped me get rid of my hunger cravings and the eating window helps me to not snack all day and be able to stay within my daily/macros. But am I getting any other benefits, like autophagy, many other benefits that you'll talk about? I chew the gum to curb my appetite or cravings and I may have during the fasted state, which is from 7:00 PM to 1:00 PM the next day and it works great for that. I chew it both in the beginning of the fast as well as at the end. This is working for me, so I probably won't change it, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts on it. Thanks so much. Keep up your amazing work that is helping this farmer from Kentucky," Ben Winters.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Ben. Well, just a few comments first about you, Ben personally, one I love when listeners give us a little snapshot of who they are. Like a farmer from Kentucky, I can like, you know, I get like this whole picture of Ben now.

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: I love that also, Winters, best last name ever. That should be my last name. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I love the last name.

Melanie Avalon: I really love this question and it's something I've thought about a lot, especially being on this show, talking about intermittent fasting for so long, I know in my own personal journey and I'll be curious to hear about you as well, Vanessa. When I started fasting, I did chew all the gums. It was like training wheels. It was like a nice way for me to get used to the fasted state and sort of like Ben, I felt like it was really working for me, although it was bad. We had a conversation recently on the show about different artificial sweeteners and I would like== do you remember the dessert gums? Did you ever have those, the Dessert Delights or something? Vanessa, it was like Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. Did you watch that movie growing up?

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Of course, yes.

Melanie Avalon: They had this like Extra Dessert Delights. They had a cinnamon roll and they had an apple pie and a strawberry shortcake and it literally tasted like you were eating that dessert. I mean, it was magical. It was like Wonka level and it was bad. I would go through like he said I think he used the word eat in this question. I felt like I was eating a whole pack and I would often get GI distress as well, which was a fun time. So, my thoughts on all of it are I'm like pausing in the ideal world. I don't think it's ideal. And I know for me, on the flipside of not chewing these gums and having these flavors during the fast, it is so much better for me, so much better. I also used the training wheels with coffee and tea, really making it really sweet and flavored. And it was kind of like extending the eating window into the fast and just making the fast a non-caloric version of the eating window in a way.

It did work for me. It did help me transition to fasting. So, I can't tell people don't do it because it worked for me. And I know it works for people. Long term, though, I feel much better again not being that way and actually experiencing the fast naturally. And I do have, so it sounds like for Ben it doesn't create more cravings and appetites. Or maybe it is maybe if you cut it out, you'll realize that you don't have any appetite or cravings while fasting. And maybe this is the thing that's actually keeping that present and as long as you're doing it's going to stay there. I might bet money [chuckles] on that. So as far as the actual, is it ruining the benefits of intermittent fasting?

Well, one, these foods or these gums, they actually do have calories oftentimes like they feel like they're zero calories. But when you're having like a whole pack, I think legally they can have a certain amount of calories and still label it as zero. So, it'll stay zero, but it might have a few. And then if you're having a whole pack that can actually add up. You are sending your body signals of eating something. So, it's kind of like mixed messages to your body, I do think, because people will say, that if you take in artificially sweetened things that it does just stop all the benefits of fasting. And I don't agree with that because if you're not taking in any-- I just said that maybe you are taking in some calories with it. But if you're not, I still think you will get benefits of the fast. It just might be harder.

I think for a lot of people, it will make their body more reluctant to sort of really tap into that fat burning state because it's constantly sort of waiting for what it perceives as the need for something sweet or sugar. I think it can still create a blood sugar roller coaster for a lot of people even if they've been fasted for a while. This would actually be a good chance to try something like a CGM. You could see, Ben, when you're having these cravings and when you chew the gum, what's actually happening with your blood sugar levels, that would be really cool to see. We love NutriSense, if you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST you can get $30 off. As far as, autophagy, which he asked about and the other benefits-- well, first of all, autophagy, it's not this black and white on/off thing. And we also don't have a ton of information about the extent to which it ramps up on a timeline basis.

I think people make a lot of assumptions. They're like, "Oh, you're fasting. You have a lot of autophagy. You're not fasting. You don't have autophagy." And that's just not the case. You literally have autophagy going on 24/7. And it can get ramped up by certain things like fasting and exercise and calorie restriction so it's hard to know. I don't know, it's hard to know if there's an effect on autophagy from chewing gum or something like that. I would think it's still going on, but it's hard to know. My long takeaway for all of that rambling is that I think you're still getting benefits. I think for a lot of people, it's going to make it substantially harder, and they'll feel probably a lot better on the flipside. And you might find for you, Ben, you said that you still want to lose a few pounds. It might be that you could cut out this gum and keep everything the same and you might actually find that you lose the weight. That's very possible. It would be a fun thing to experiment with. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I agree with most of what you'd say. Yes, autophagy is occurring, like, every night as long as you are closing your eating window further enough away from bedtime to actually get a lot of that repair and restoration. But autophagy gets deeper at night and it can get really deep if you do an actual, like, just water only fast. And the research done on that in humans is measuring the autophagy genes and it seems to ramp up to significantly greater levels between 36 to 72 hours of pure water fasting. So that's like a whole different kind of fasting, in my opinion, than the daily intermittent fasting where you're getting-- I think I agree with you in the sense that you're getting greater cell turnover in that time, that you're not consuming food in that time that you are fasted.

A lot of the benefits that are talked about on this podcast and in the literature on just fasting and what happens, I think it occurs more so in the state of not stimulating insulin that much, but you probably can still get a small fraction of the benefits. But if your main goal, Ben, is weight loss and you're getting there, you're counting your macros as well, and your calories, and you're also finding intermittent fasting helps you to just stick to your calories and macros for the day, which a lot of people find it really supportive of, then I think you're doing great, and I really wouldn't worry about it too much. If you're in a situation where you're like, "Wow, I really want to spend some time ramping up autophagy, maybe doing a deeper cellular cleanse, mitophagy, getting all that stuff really going on. I would maybe do a longer, like an extended fast once a year or something like that for the purposes just of like autophagy, mitophagy, cellular renewal, anti-aging, etc.

But I wouldn't worry too much about it just in the day to day of intermittent fasting. Because like you said, Melanie, we just don't have enough information yet on what's really happening. But we know, okay, you're chewing gum, you're not eating protein, so you're not stimulating mTOR. You're probably still in that AMPK pathway of being in the fastest state of being in that catabolic state of breaking things down, tearing certain things down, repairing them, recycling some proteins, etc. But it's just hard to know exactly how much, like you were saying.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. It's interesting because he [chuckles] clearly really feels good with what he's doing. So, I think that's amazing and I love that he's fasting and getting benefits that he does perceive. He won't ever know, though, unless he cuts out the gum if there're even more benefits beyond that, you just won't know unless you try. I don't think you're ruining most of the benefits, but I think you'll get more benefits if you cut it out.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, perfect answer.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect answer, okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And when you submit the questions, feel free to insert your favorite emojis so we can see your personality.

Vanessa Spina: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: Please start putting your favorite emoji at the end so we can know. The show notes for this episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode326 and that will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: That was everything. It was so much fun. I absolutely love the questions and I'm excited to answer more in the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Well, have a fabulous night and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much, Melanie. Talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jul 09

Episode 325: Dr. Paul J. Arciero, Protein Pacing Diet, Vegetarianism, Metabolism, Caloric Restriction, Intermittent Fasting, Mindset, Antioxidants, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Protein Pacing Diet

Welcome to Episode 325 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% off InsideTracker’s new Ultimate Plan—complete with estradiol, progesterone, and TSH.

Dr. Paul's Background

the world of nutritional science

studying 7 day Adventists

Bioavailability of amino acids

protein pacing - bolus vs. distributed

combing intermittent fasting with protein pacing

protein before bed

the contrary schools of thought

autophagy provided amino acids

water fasting vs protein pacing + fasting

exogenous and endogenous antioxidants

caffeine intake

meal replacements vs whole foods

leptin levels and resistance

the microbiome & GI distress

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 325 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. This is Episode number 325, and we have a special episode today. I am not just here with my fabulous cohost, Vanessa Spina, but we have a very special guest on the show. This is actually the first guest that Vanessa and I have had together. So, we are very excited. We're here with Dr. Paul Arciero. And so, here is the backstory leading up to this conversation. Vanessa had actually been reading and sharing Dr. Arciero's work for quite a while. She shared a study on her Instagram. It published back in December of 2022 called Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss. And she posted about this, was talking all about it. So, then I read it and dove deep into it. And so then, we're talking about it on this show, and I thought why not just reach out to the head researcher and see if maybe he would entertain some of our crazy questions?

First of all, just so excited about the study. And second of all, had quite a few questions about the setup and all of that. Dr. Arciero was so kind. He responded to our emails. He actually already went on Vanessa's show, the Optimal Protein Podcast, and he was open to coming on this show, which was fabulous. I didn't realize at the time his work expands way beyond the window that I had seen, because my first exposure was reading this one study. So, then I dived deep into, I mean, not all of his studies, because he has over 70 peer-reviewed publications. So, I didn't read all of them, but I read quite a few of them. And he also has an incredible book called The Protein Pacing Diet. I didn't know exactly what to expect when I started reading it. I figured it would be about protein pacing, but friends, it dives into so many things. So, the entire concept of human metabolism, specifically how protein relates to it, and all the nuances you could ever want to know about protein. Also, caloric restriction, intermittent fasting, the importance of diet quality, exercise.

Then beyond that, a lot of really powerful work on mindset, actually. I just loved it. It's really funny, Paul. I was reading it and sending Vanessa screenshots of the book because your vibe in the book is like the vibe of Vanessa and I. I don't know, we are into the-- It was just really beautiful. Your book is very beautiful and motivating and very high spirit. So, we're just so honored to have you here today. So, thank you so much for being here.

Paul J. Arciero: Wow, that was one of the best intros I've ever had, Melanie. Thank you. That was really cool. You brought a word to my Zen. Yeah, it's interesting. Research sometimes can be obviously very cold and unfamiliar to a lot of people, just because it's hard for a lot of people to relate to. Whenever they start to see statistics and numbers and science, they run. And so, I really appreciate those words. Those mean a lot to me, because I want to try to make science more comfortable and harmonic with everyone's life. I think there's such a disconnect with science and research, with people's habiting of this world. And so, yeah. No, that was awesome. That was wonderful. That's my goal. So, I appreciate the shoutout to my book. I'm interested to know. I wrote two books, The Protein Pacing Diet and then The PRISE Life. And The PRISE Life was the shorter version of The Protein Pacing Diet. So, I'm not sure which one you have your hands on.

Melanie Avalon: I read The Protein Pacing Diet. Which one did you do first?

Paul J. Arciero: That was the one, The Protein Pacing Diet. And then, The PRISE Life was just a revised version of it, but yeah. Well, thanks again for having me. It's always a joy for me to be able to share my research, because oftentimes as a scientist our research is only shared with likeminded scientists. [chuckles] It doesn't get into the eyes and ears and minds and souls of the world that needs it. And so, I'm really grateful for you having me on.

Melanie Avalon: We are grateful for you, because this is exactly, I think, what the world needs. You just said all of it just now. There's just so much fascinating information happening in the science world, and I think it can be often hard to bridge the gap between that world and all of the people not in that world. That's one reason I love podcasting, for example, is because we can do awesome interviews like this, and bring your work to our audience. I'll have to check out the new version of the book. And so, a little bit about your bio for listeners. So, we just learned this. Congratulations to Paul. So, he was/still is the Professor in the Department of Health and Human Physiological Sciences at Skidmore College. He actually just accepted a position as well at the University of Pittsburgh in the Department of Sports Medicine and Nutrition with tenure, which is super cool.

Like I said, you've had over 70 peer-reviewed publications on PubMed, cited over 6,765 times. Your research has been all over the place, BBC News, WebMD, the Today's Show, USA Today, Time, all the places. So, we are very, very honored to have you here. A question to start things off. So, like we were just talking about, you really bring the human perspective, and I like that you use that word, Zen, to everything that you're doing. So, growing up, did you always want to be a scientist? Yeah, what led you to what you're doing today?

Paul J. Arciero: That's a great question to start with because people that know me know that I was on the opposite end of a studious young boy and on his way to becoming a scientist. Yeah, I didn't fare too well in school. School was a really rough part of my life growing up. I wasn't a good student at all. I was actually asked to stay back in the third grade. So, I struggled with school, with learning. And so, what I did was I dove into my physical body, just because I was a decent athlete, and that seemed to allow me to find an identity as a young boy, because otherwise, I would have had literally nothing in terms of identifying as something worthwhile. And so, thank goodness that at least from a physical standpoint, I was able to-- So, as it turned out, I was good enough in college to get a full tennis scholarship. But then reality set in, once again when I was in college, and I ended up dropping out, just because-- Well, it was either me being asked to leave or me leaving on my own. And so, I ended up leaving and going over to Europe and playing some tennis, professional level tennis, and became very homesick.

I was 19 at the time. So, I tried my first try in college. Didn't go so well. And then when I was over there playing tennis, thinking that this was one way to help get myself back together, I just became extremely homesick and despite having some actually pretty good success. So, when I returned home, I knew there was only one thing I needed to go back to, and that was trying to see how well I could stay in school and see if something stuck this time. Fortunately, I was really into nutrition and fitness, because I wanted to become a better tennis player. When I did return back to college, I realized that those two things were actually majors in college, exercise physiology and nutrition. So, that just started my path. And so, it was really just born out of my own personal need to find an identity and so that's how my path to becoming a scientist in the field of nutrition and exercise physiology started.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's a very unconventional path, I feel. So, when you first got into that, because there're so many topics in the world of nutrition and there's so much controversy and different opinions, what has your experience been like in that world? Because you focus so much on the power of protein. Did it take a while to come to that thesis or have your thoughts oscillated a lot throughout your journey? Just wondering what that was all like.

Paul J. Arciero: It was actually quite interesting. So, when I was over in Europe, I was becoming much more aware of the connection between how I nourished my body and how I performed. And so, I started to take on some eating behaviors that I felt were more beneficial to my performance. One was just eating-- I started to eat less meat, believe it or not, and more plant-based foods. That seemed to help, but I don't know if it was truly that beneficial for me. So, when I did return back to college and university, I became a vegetarian, because I started reading the scientific literature. This was back in the early 1980s, mid 1980s. Most of the science back then published research on vegetarians showed that they weighed less, they had less risk for cardiovascular and metabolic disease, heart disease, and diabetes. And so, I said, "Yeah, this could be the way to do it."

So, by the time I graduated and started graduate school, I asked my professor at the time, my advisor, "Could I test vegetarians and to see what their metabolism was like, because it seemed to influence so much of their health?" That's what I did. I conducted my first study at Purdue University with Seventh-day Adventist, because they follow a very, somewhat, strict vegetarian diet. Because I was a vegetarian, I could relate to them. What I found from that study was fascinating. I fed both vegetarians, myself included, and non-vegetarians, a standardized meal. It was a liquid protein meal at the time. It was a company called Sustacal, and it was one of those just meal replacements that they used primarily in the healthcare setting, hospital setting for patients that needed high-quality nutrition. So, it wasn't the best in terms of high quality, but it had some protein.

What I found was very interesting. It was a dairy, animal-based protein. I wasn't paying attention to that necessarily. But what we found was that when the group of vegetarians, myself included, consumed that meal with slightly higher protein than a typical normal meal would have, they hung on to those calories, and they had a significantly lower postprandial thermogenic response. That's a fancy word for-- We burned less calories after we ate that meal. It was the same relative amount. So, everyone got the same relative amount based on their body weight. So, there was no difference in the quantity that people were consuming. Whereas when the omnivores consumed the meal, they were burning those calories much less efficiently. They were just expending. They had a much higher metabolic rate. So, it contradicted what our hypothesis was. We thought that, "Okay, these vegetarians weigh less, maybe they burn more calories after they eat." In fact, we found the opposite, they were actually burning much less.

So, what was the reason for that? What we ended up finding, based on some of the other data that we collected was probably due to them not being accustomed to consuming that much protein at a serving. And so, the body sensed this higher amount of protein in this meal challenge we gave them as a vegetarian and it decided to hold on to those calories, because it knew it was a very vital nutrient. We know that protein in Greek stands for proteios, means primary, vital. And so, as it turns out, because vegetarians in general consume less protein, especially high-quality protein, when they are faced with a meal that contains more protein and higher-quality protein, their body makes the decision to hold on to those calories, and not burn them, and to preserve those. And so, that was my first eye opening research experience early on in my career where I found that, "Wow, the quality of what we consume makes all the difference in the world."

In fact, much less of our health is determined by controlling or managing the total number of calories we consume. The vast majority of our health and our physical performance, cognitive is determined by the quality of the nutrients. That was, again, way before many people were paying attention to this concept of nutrient density and the quality of the food that we consume. Most people still are focusing on the quantity and working off that outdated energy in, energy out or calories in, calories out energy balance formula. It's just simply outdated and has been proven time and time again not to be the most important way of looking at nutrition. So, yeah, that was my intro.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, that's fascinating. Can I ask you some questions about that study?

Paul J. Arciero: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: So, how long was it? How many days?

Paul J. Arciero: That was what was so powerful. This was just an acute meal challenge. So, it was just a single meal challenge that we were providing to these vegetarians-- We called nonvegetarians, omnivores. So, we had them come in, measure their baseline metabolism, so we had an understanding of what their resting metabolism was, and then we fed them the meal challenge, and then we measured their metabolism and their thermic response for three hours after along with hormones. So, we measured their thyroid hormones, insulin, glucose. So, yeah, it was a fun study to be a part of.

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have any idea since then? Have you learned how long it would take them to adapt or habituate? Do you think if they had another meal, it would have the same effect?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm not aware of too many other studies that have converted [chuckles] vegetarians during a study into becoming an omnivore. It's hard to do. It's hard to break that. So, I'm not aware. I think it's a fairly acute response. I think the habituation from that or the acclimatizing to that higher-quality protein, it probably occurs-- Obviously, it occurs acutely, so very quickly that the body begins to hold on to those amino acids, because they realize how precious they are. And then how long does it take before? Maybe the body becomes, and I caution to use this word, but desensitized to it or maybe feels like, "Well, we've got sufficient amino acids now. We don't need to necessarily conserve those at the same level as what we were."

I don't know how long that would take. Yeah, it really depends on the person, their activity level, because your activity is going to determine the degree to which your body holds on and utilizes, makes bioavailable, those amino acids for recovery and muscle protein synthesis. So, I think a lot of it would have to do with how active the person is at the time that they're making that transition. But the good news is, I guess, I go back to the bottom-line takeaway of the good news is that our body is very responsive. And that if we are eating poorly, or perhaps not to the level that the body optimally needs nutrients, once it's exposed and once it has an opportunity to benefit from a high-quality nourishing meal, the body can respond very quickly. That's what we took away, that the body is extremely responsive to consuming high-quality nourishment, even if a person has not been eating really well for a period of time.

Melanie Avalon: I think when people hear protein, they don't think it can be stored per se. So, when you say stored, was it storing the amino acids in the muscles? How does it store that protein?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, so storage is probably not the ideal word, but I would use the word, the bioavailable, the net utilization of the amino acids just become more available into the amino acid pool. So, when we eat those high-quality sources of protein, when the body begins the process of breaking that protein down and making those amino acids available to the body, they're incorporated into the cells to allow for the various pathways and functions that protein provides, which is abundant. We have so many different uses of amino acids inside of our body, making enzymes, making body tissues, hormones, structures, and immune cells. So, I think that's what the protein was being utilized for, as opposed to perhaps being oxidized and not utilized as efficiently.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe this actually ties in really well to a similar concept, because that would be the concept of two populations receiving historically more protein or less protein. What about for people, because you have this protein pacing idea. What about the timing of protein? So, if you are having protein throughout the day, does that change the body's thermogenic or metabolic response to it compared to, if you're having it in concentrated meals or doing it with fasting, for example, and having all your protein at once, how does that affect the body's thermogenic and metabolic response?

Paul J. Arciero: So, there's some good data coming out of some of the labs around the world. I can think of two offhand in Canada, one, McMaster, and then some of the other work that's been done here in the States. What they've shown is that, when they provide protein in various manners and they've looked at it as a bolus feeding, so two larger feedings of protein versus providing it in a more concentrated form, but distributed more evenly throughout the day, they did a bolus of two challenges of protein. So, they gave the same amount of protein over the course of the day, and they either delivered it in two, four, or eight feedings. I think those are the numbers that they used. What they found was that there seems to be an optimal amount. So, in terms of the timing that you're describing, when it's administered in a way that body can optimally digest it, absorb it, transport it, metabolize, store and utilize, it seems to be in this feeding of roughly 4 hours apart. And so, that would be a recommendation for people to try to see if they can optimize during a feeding day if they're not undergoing a fasting to try to optimize their protein intake.

This is what we follow in our lab. We follow this protein pacing schedule of about every three and a half hours, but more optimally every four hours. That seems to be an ideal time where the body has sufficient focus of digesting and absorbing the amino acids from the protein, as opposed to concentrating it into this much more larger amount of protein, it's just harder for the body to digest it. So, that's what we know about-- And protein synthesis goes up. So, if you're looking at one of the functions of protein in the body, it is to increase tissue repair, tissue growth. So, we call that protein synthesis. What we found is, when you administer the protein in that more pacing approach, four hours, the body just seems to be more ideal at absorbing it. So, that's an important take home for people to consume that protein.

We know that following an overnight fast, the body is starting to transition into a greater protein breakdown state. So, there's always the balance. When we talk about, at least from the muscle standpoint, muscle protein balance, the body is always trying to maintain, in an ideal world, a state of muscle protein synthesis. So, always having slightly more recovery, tissue repair, and growth than we are having breakdown, because we know that as we age, breakdown of our body protein stores is occurring at an accelerated rate, we have a blunting of our body's ability to build new protein and repair. And so, in the morning, we're in a slightly higher muscle protein breakdown state. That's why it's so important to start the day with a high-quality serving of protein, especially on a day that you're coming off, for example, an intermittent fast. We can talk maybe more about what that means. But when we undergo an intermittent fast, our body is undergoing some really favorable cellular changes. And one of those is preparing the body for the reentry of high-quality nourishment.

So, we're actually creating an environment during an intermittent fast, where the body wants to supercharge its protein synthesis. I know that sounds a little bit unusual. Most people, when they think of an intermittent fast, the body is breaking itself down, it's removing old unwanted tissue and cells, it's undergoing this process of autophagy, kind of the house cleaning. And so, there's some really beneficial cellular responses. One of them is preparing the body to optimize protein synthesis. So, there's an ideal window of time that when you are coming off of an intermittent fast, when you provide the first reentry of high-quality nourishment, it should be amino acids. It should be protein. The highest quality protein that you can try to get your hands on, because that's going to be put to really good use in the body when we combine intermittent fasting with protein pacing in that way.

So, the goal is to, every four hours, have that high-quality feeding throughout the day on a normal feeding day, that's the ideal. And then when a person has intermittent fasted, however long they decide to do it, it could be a 16-hour window, some do with the 16:8 method, some do a 24-hour intermittent fast, some extend it a little bit longer. The important point here is that, when you do break that fast, you want the highest quality protein that you can consume.

Vanessa Spina: I was really glad that you brought up the pacing period of three hours to four hours, because that's just a question that we get so much. We were actually talking about it last night when we were recording, and we're well aware that there's anabolic window about 24 hours for people who are not professional athletes. But people are often curious like, you know, what that amount of time is. So, I'm really glad that you brought that up and clarified it. I really want to try the protein pacing approach. I'm planning on trying it as an experiment later this summer to do this. Having the high-quality protein every three hours to four hours throughout my eating window, and seeing what happens with it, and doing some body composition before and after. So, it'll be interesting to see if it makes a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and then something else I wanted to comment on. A lot of people often say that it's not good to eat multiple hours before bed. But in your protein pacing approach, you actually do recommend eating two hours before bed, is that correct?

Paul J. Arciero: That is correct. Yeah, that's so controversial.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] Would you like to expand on that?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. So, is breakfast as not being one of the most important meals of the day? Then we can maybe talk about that, but the nighttime feeding is actually crucial. There's such a difference. I think that people need to understand that, again, it's less about the quantity, although that's important, you don't want to over consume later on the day. We call it the back end of eating, you want to do more front loading of your calories if possible. But definitely for athletes and people that have had more of a challenging window during the day to consume the nutrients. So often, people either get busy or they make the conscious decision to not eat too much during the day, and then unfortunately at night, sometimes, the floodgates open and they end up over consuming. Those two overconsumed nutrients are oftentimes simple carbohydrates and some fat. And so, that combination is not ideal.

So, at night, when you are trying to replenish the body with optimal nourishment, carbohydrates and fats together are not the ideal combination. We have lots of scientific proof to show that those two things are going to very, very quickly favor energy storage inside your body. Unfortunately, not in the form of healthy lean muscle mass, which is what the goal is during that overnight time period, because you have a hormonal environment that is very favorable to allowing the body to recover, repair, and rejuvenate during those nighttime hours. You want to provide the optimal nourishment and that comes in the form of amino acids of high-quality protein.

So, yeah, that two-hour eating window, before you go to bed, it does not have to be high calorie. It should optimally be high-quality protein, and then perhaps a little bit of healthy fat, because that will help keep the insulin level down, a little bit lower than it would be if you were to consume protein and a more simple carb or some optimal high-quality protein and some complex carbohydrates, that combination or a combination of all three, but definitely the protein. The amount seems to be somewhere between 20 g to 40 g. So, people often ask, "Oh, that seems like so much. How many calories is that?" Well, it's going to be somewhere between 80 calories and 160 calories of protein. Now, 40 does seem like a lot, but again, if you're a really intense high energy output athlete, that's not that much for those types of individuals that need to replenish, and rebuild, and restore muscle tissue, but somewhere within that range of 20 to 40 g of protein.

And then, like I said, the balance of the remaining calories could be in the form of healthy fat, whether it's avocado or nuts and seeds. Those would be some of the foods. And then some fresh fruit, perhaps blueberries, somewhat on the lower sugar side, but high antioxidant because of the favorable anti-inflammatory benefits you'll get from dark colored fruits. That could beneficial as well. So, that would be the recommendation. Yeah, that's actually a really important feeding, because not catching that window or benefiting from that feeding window at night for certain people. Here's what's interesting, Vanessa and Melanie. When we make this recommendation to people who want weight loss, that's one of the most important feedings that they end up doing. I know it sounds contrary, but yeah, for weight loss and for muscle mass maintenance and growth, that feeding is equally important for both of those groups. They're actually on opposite ends of the spectrum.

You have one group that's excess body weight and body fat and they're having that high-quality protein just before bed and benefiting from it tremendously. The data that we have from our lab that we incorporate that as really a required component to their nutrition, dietary regimen is a game changer in terms of the benefit that they have in their body composition, in terms of muscle mass maintenance and fat loss that occurs. And then we know from an athletic standpoint, that's also extremely beneficial to helping increase muscle mass.

Vanessa Spina: It's really, really interesting, because I've come across it before for athletes who are especially physique competitors to have a protein feed before bed helps with preventing any muscle protein breakdown at night. But most of the researchers that I've spoken to say, "You got to make sure to close that eating window as early in the day as possible, especially because of leptin docking around midnight. Like, you don't want to have high insulin competing with leptin." So, that's fascinating that that's what you found in your lab.

Paul J. Arciero: [chuckles] Yes. But I think the key, and I'm glad you pointed it out, we try to minimize the insulin spike when we do deliver that protein. And so, with weight loss, we generally recommend the protein with a small fat combination, a fat feeding whether it's nuts or some coconut or avocado, something that again helps kind of counter that insulin release we have found beneficial.

Melanie Avalon: And then, interestingly, to continue the controversy, it was so layered, because when it comes to the controversy with breakfast so, first of all, we have the very intense pro breakfast movement. Then we have the response, especially in the fasting community, trying to point out all of the potential issues with the breakfast funded studies. But then you point out the issues with the critique of pointing out the issues of the breakfast studies. So, where do you land on breakfast?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, so during fasting, obviously, you are not providing any nourishment during that time period. But I think that has to be done very infrequently. And again, because we've already discussed that when you are waking up in the morning after a fast, your body's not in an ideal environment for protein synthesis. It's actually starting to transition into a greater state of protein breakdown. But you're having less protein synthesis is what essentially is happening. That's not ideal, particularly for weight loss. So, let's just talk about it for weight loss. So, we really recommend with our study participants that it's most important that you start the day as soon as possible upon waking with a high-quality serving of protein, combined again with very, very high-quality nourishment of lower glycemic index carbohydrates and healthy forms of fat coming in.

But that is the ideal environment to transition immediately over into a greater state of protein synthesis. That's what's key, because they're doing it at the same time they're consuming less calories. So, they're on a lower calorie intake. But they need to safeguard against any further increase in muscle protein breakdown and decrease of muscle protein synthesis. So, that early morning feeding is paramount for them and for their success. It's actually essential for their satiation. Otherwise, they run the risk of becoming much too hungry, and making the wrong food choice. So, in our study participants, one of the main reasons we've had this success that we have is because we place such a very focused and heavy emphasis on that early morning feeding of high-quality protein. It's just absolutely essential.

By the way, it's important to point out that much of our research we do when we're dealing with weight loss in people, we are controlling further exercise. So, some of our studies, not all of them, because we do place a heavy emphasis on the lifestyle approach incorporating exercise, as you know through the PRISE protocol that I created. But for many people, we actually much prefer that we monitor and control and limit their exercise, because that can increase feeding behaviors, and we really want to focus on their nutrition only. And so, we're making this recommendation for them to eat first thing in the morning knowing that we're not recommending that they engage in any level of strenuous exercise other than normal walking and things like that.

So, yeah, that early morning feeding. And I think that's where the controversy has been, that much of the backlash against breakfast not being as beneficial or healthy or optimal for people's overall health is because they've missed the target. Again, they have not had their eye toward the nutrient that is the most essential and that's protein. They've just focused on a typical breakfast feeding, which is usually higher carbohydrate. And that's been why some of the data points to breakfast not being beneficial. And so, we deemphasize obviously the carbohydrate aspect and emphasize the protein. But yeah, it's super, super important. And it's particularly important that breakfast feeding after they come off, we do what's called a one day, 24-hour or two-day fast, 24, 48, it actually is a little bit longer than that in some cases, because we recommend on a one day that they hold off on that feeding that evening.

So, if they've gone from stopping eating the day before, let's say at 8 o'clock, and then they fast the entire day the next day, instead of them resuming eating at 8 o'clock the next night, we will often have them abstain from consuming their first meal until the following morning. So, they're actually doing the equivalent of a 36-hour fast. And then the ones that are doing a two-day are actually extending it to the following morning of the following day. So, it would be a 60-hour fast, which is a little bit longer. We don't have them abstain completely as Vanessa and I talked about in our previous podcast. We have them consume a very high-quality nutrient dense, adaptogen, antioxidant beverages, and some collagen protein as well during the intermittent fast, but it's very, very low calorie. But it's administered again on that pacing schedule of every four hours. But it's very low nutrition, so it's only about 100 calories each of those feedings. So, over the course of a day, it's equivalent of about 400 calories, which is not a lot to trigger any significant disruption in the benefits of the fasting that we're having them do.

So, yeah, I would say in conclusion, breakfast is super important whether you're looking to lose body fat and change your body composition favorably by losing body fat, particularly abdominal visceral fat, and maintaining and even increasing your lean body mass. And that goes hand in hand with the evening feeding as well. I think I shared that. Our 2013 Obesity Journal study showed that group of individuals, when they followed this protein pacing and calorie restricted regimen, they lost significant amounts of weight, but they actually were able to increase, although slightly but significantly, their lean body mass. So, yeah, it definitely makes a difference.

Melanie Avalon: I have some questions about the fasting. Before that, I have one really random question that I have been thinking about for so long. I don't know, if you have any thoughts or know the answer to this. The autophagy that occurs during fasting, does it create any measurable amount of "protein that we could measure." For people who are fasting, do they maybe need slightly less protein in their eating window because they're freeing up amino acids from autophagy while fasting?

Paul J. Arciero: I don't know if they would need less. It would make sense that during that process, the body is shuttling some amino acids into the free pool. But I don't know if less would be. So, when they resume feeding, is that what you're thinking?

Melanie Avalon: So, compared to eating protein all throughout the day, compared to if you're fasting and you have autophagy, are you freeing up, recycling getting more aminos?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I would caution about over providing. So, you probably wouldn't need more during that fasting time period. We do provide a little bit during the actual fasting window, but like I said, in very small amounts. We don't do it at every one of the four feedings. We only do it at one, maybe two of them where we'll provide, have them consume a little bit of additional protein. Usually, like I said, in the form of collagen or bone broth is the form that we use. Yeah, I don't know how much difference it makes in their overall protein balance and protein synthesis. Maybe it just helps provide that little bit extra to allow for a halting of any additional amount of protein breakdown.

Melanie Avalon: That's also what I would wonder about. Because I know a lot of our listeners and me included, do fast daily? So, I fast every day completely and then just eat in the evening. It works really well for me. I've been able to maintain and even build muscle doing that. Vanessa and I were talking about this yesterday. I'm like, "Well, when I get older, is it going to be a problem?" So, yeah, I'm very haunted by these questions.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, no and they're really good ones to ask. Yeah, so, let me just ask I'm curious how many people turn around and ask the host's questions. But when you do your fast, are they more than a 16-hour? It sounds like it is, because you're only eating within a very small window.

Melanie Avalon: I typically eat for about four hours or five hours in the evening. Very high protein, like pounds and pounds of protein and blueberries. [laughs]

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, that's great. It sounds like you're exercising, you're doing some resistance exercise.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I wear weights during the day around. I do a lot of EMSculpt actually. Are you familiar with that?

Paul J. Arciero: I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with the specifics of it.

Melanie Avalon: It's a machine that does tons of muscle contractions more than you could ever do consciously.

Paul J. Arciero: So, a little bit like e-stim?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm actually interviewing Terry Wahls this week as well. She talks about e-stim all the time. So, I've been looking at e-stim a lot. Yeah, similar to that. So, yes, I've been able to build muscle with that and fasting. I haven't broken my fasting pattern. Like I said, I do consume a very large amount of protein. So, with your fasting, because I know we're going to get a lot of questions about this, how do we know what enzymatic processes, and characteristics, and benefits of fasting apply to a person on a completely strict non-caloric fast compared to a fast where there is a small amount of calories? It sounds a little bit similar to Valter Longo's fasting mimicking diet. We've had him on the show a few times. Although your version-- because I was thinking about it. Because his version, the focus is low protein. That's the focus. Your version seems to sound like the focus is on higher protein, but low calorie, is that correct, while fasting?

Paul J. Arciero: You know what, it absolutely is. Yeah, Valter and David Sinclair, although he takes a slightly different approach with his fasting. Again, they're both lower protein. We just haven't found the same degree of success overall. Again, we're looking at it very broadly in the approach that we take with our model of intermittent fasting and protein pacing. We're not so concerned with-- I don't know, how do I want to say this without coming across as being too negative on their approach, but we're looking at it from an overall physical, cognitive and performance health outcome. And so, yeah, I think for body composition, we just believe-- Again, I could cite our last obesity study that you both had read, and Vanessa had come across and that you both had blogged about. That was a good example.

We had two groups. One was not following the intermittent fasting, but they were calorically restricting, and it was with lower protein. They just did not have nearly the same benefit. So, from an overall perspective, from a body composition, hormonal, cardiovascular-- So, it's hard to justify the lowering of the protein during the normal dietary eating window, feeding window without being able to counterbalance that protein breakdown that would be occurring as you come off that fast.

Melanie Avalon: So, here's a question, because I know Longo has said that, ideally people would just do a water fast, but he found it was too hard for people. So, that's why he created the fasting mimicking diet. It sounds like for you, although I'll ask you, if people did your approach with just water fasting, would you think that would have negative effects?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I do. I gave this analogy earlier that if it's only water, I struggle with that, just because I give the analogy that when we are undergoing a fast and it's only water, does it truly allow the body to counter the toxins, for example, that are being released because that's what's happening. Does it truly help facilitate and augment the old unwanted cells that the body is trying to dispose of and breakdown? Again, just speaking specific to our data, what we have found is that when you can help this autophagy, and mitophagy, and the whole process that's occurring during that fast, and as much as possible help support the protein synthesis that you want to optimize coming off of the fast, providing the body some additional support with the antioxidants and some of the adaptogens.

I know Sinclair talks about this a lot in his research, being able to provide some of these nutrients that the body definitely benefits from a gene expression standpoint and at an enzyme level as well that it just seems that during that intermittent fasting period, especially the longer you go with it. So, I guess, if it was a shorter window, maybe less than 20 hours, 18 hours. Some of the Mattson's work and de Cabo. If it's less than that time period and you're not quite into that ketosis state and water perhaps is sufficient. But I think if you're extending beyond that, and that's the model that we use, again, as I mentioned, our fasting window is longer. I think having those additional very low calorie but very nutrient dense antioxidants and adaptogens, I think, play a critical role in helping the body facilitate that process of autophagy and helping for the removal of some of those things, some of those toxic substances.

Melanie Avalon: Have you tested just the noncaloric antioxidant supplementation or is it always with the snacking aspect as well?

Paul J. Arciero: So, we've only used a caloric restriction model. So, where they're just paying attention to a daily caloric restriction and then this nutritionally fasted intermittent fast. Yeah, so, we will support it with these. Yeah, I hesitate to use the word snacking, although--

Melanie Avalon: [laughs]

Paul J. Arciero: No, it is right, because they are consuming that very small amount. In some cases, those adaptogens and antioxidants that they're consuming, it's not quite even 100 calories. In some cases, for some of them, it's down as low as 20 calories to 40 calories over a four-hour window. So, that's really negligible. But yeah, it's not standard across the board that they're all taking in 100 calories at each of those feedings every four hours. In some cases, it's as low as 20 calories to 40 calories. But yeah, no, that's a really good point. Doing that comparison where we're having that intermittent fast and matching calories over the course of a full day, I think would be a next study to clearly delineate what is the difference in terms of the body composition changes, the hormonal, metabolic, cardiovascular, even some of the mood state benefits that we have shown as well to a complete water noncaloric fast to this very low calorie, nutritionally supported fast.

Melanie Avalon: It would be awesome to see that for two camps, like, people who are doing fasting less, like you were saying, maybe 18 hours or 20 hours and then the extended version. That would be exciting.

Paul J. Arciero: It would be. Because again, there're two camps on that. If you look at some of the-- I know Mattson and de Cabo, they speak to that longer fast period as being beneficial and others do as well, and others have found success with the shorter window.

Melanie Avalon: Is there the potential that exogenous antioxidants would downregulate the body's endogenous antioxidant production?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I do. And we have evidence to support that. At those higher concentrated amounts, there very likely would-be a downregulation of the body's endogenous. But I think, again, although we're providing this nutrient dense source of these antioxidants and adaptogens, they're far below what you would find in a normal supplemented antioxidant product where it's more of a daily serving. So, when you think about some of the antioxidants that are commercially available and sold, they're usually in these very highly concentrated sources that you would take once during the day or maybe twice. But they would be very, very concentrated to allow for that absorption to occur over the course of a day. Whereas what we're providing in this liquid form is much more diluted and not nearly at the same concentration level. So, again, unlikely that it would create that downregulation that it would normally occur that we find when people are supplementing with those much higher concentrations.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, because I feel like we dove straight deep into the details, and Vanessa and I have talked about this so much that I forget that a lot of the listeners, this is their first-time hearing about this study. So, just to recap the findings of the study, what were the actual findings with-- You already said this, but I just want to draw more attention to it, with the weight loss, was it around the same calories that both groups ate?

Paul J. Arciero: Yes. So, great question. In our most recent publication, we provided, on average, the women about 1,200 calories over the course of a week-- Sorry, over the course of a day, although that changed slightly depending upon whether they were intermittent fasting for one day or two days, and the caloric restriction group, the same. They were consuming, the women about 1,200 calories, men we bumped up a little bit higher. And again, it was based on body weight differences between the men and the women. Men were at about 1,500 calories. Again, I'm so glad you asked that question, because it's a really important one to focus on, despite having identical calorie intakes over the course of the measurement period. In fact, I'm looking at the data right here. The energy intake was actually slightly higher in the intermittent fasting groups compared to the caloric restriction groups. So, that's telling that here they were consuming even slightly more calories, but they ended up losing significantly more body weight, significantly more fat weight. They reduced their waist circumference significantly more.

So, yeah, despite having slightly higher intakes, the intermittent fasting protein pacing groups lost more weight, lost more body fat, more visceral fat. They were able to maintain their lean body mass to a greater degree than the caloric restriction group. So, I don't think there's any controversy or disagreement that all calories are not the same, obviously. And even how we consume them makes a big difference, because our data shows very convincingly that when these two groups of people were able to change it up, it was almost a doubling of weight loss, a doubling of body fat, a doubling of visceral fat. They had a significant reduction in their desire to eat that dropped significantly. So, yeah, those are really important takeaways.

Vanessa Spina: I love that you recapped the findings on the study for everyone, for listeners, who haven't been talking about it as much as you and I have. It's really, really helpful. And I know that it was intentional that the calories would be equated, but it really stood out to me that the one group ended up eating more and still losing more, which is one of the amazing features of intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely. Okay, some other really quick rabbit hole tangent questions from some of your other studies or actually in your book as well. I was wondering if you could talk very briefly. There's something that Vanessa and I are a little bit fans of and that's being smart and using caffeine to your advantage. You had a cool section in your book on your thoughts on caffeine. What are your thoughts on caffeine?

Paul J. Arciero: [laughs] Yeah, so that was an interesting one too. But early on in my career, I was not a caffeine drinker and I had read a lot about the benefits of caffeine. Sometimes, the not so benefits, sometimes the detriments of caffeine. So, we don't necessarily control it to any great degree although we do control. We do ask them to report caffeine intake. It is a very powerful central nervous system and peripheral nervous system stimulant. So, it activates our central nervous system and our peripheral nervous system in the sense that from a metabolic standpoint, it increases the release of stored body fat. We call that lipolysis. So, it just breaks down our lipid stores, which are our body fat stores into our bloodstream. It makes the fatty acids, that's the equivalent of amino acids to protein, fatty acids to fat. It makes these subunits of our lipid stores available to cells to use as energy to burn. So, caffeine, to a very large degree, helps mobilize our body fat stores.

Here's where it gets a little bit interesting. When you consume caffeine, there are some differences between old and young people. And so, I was able to study that extensively early on in my career, and I was able to show that younger, more fit, and active people have an easier ability to mobilize their stored body fat into their bloodstream to be accessed and used as an energy source in their cells, primarily their muscle cells. Whereas we get older, we lose that ability with one caveat, the more active we stay, the more fit we stay. So, here's a plug for--

I know we haven't talked much about exercise or physical activity, but the more we can engage our body in movement as we're drinking this caffeine, especially as we get older, the more likely we are to maintain the benefits of the caffeine to release it from our fat stores. That's a really good indication of health. Our body's ability to release fat from its storage depot is an indication of health. We want to be able to do that. It's when we have become resistant to mobilizing our body fat into our blood to be circulating it to the muscle cells and other cells that would break it down and use it as an energy source is a sign of disease. And so, caffeine is really helpful for some people.

I'm not a caffeine drinker, although I understand the benefits from it. So, what we do in our research in our lab is we encourage a very strategic application of caffeine intake. We recommend that people consume it earlier on in the day is the ideal time to do it. If you are someone who does drink caffeine or consume caffeine, because then you will benefit from the rest of the day being active, and moving, and allowing for your body to use that storage release of fat into the body. So, earlier in the day, caffeine is ideal for people. It has some proven health benefits. We know that caffeine has some antioxidants or at least coffee does and tea that contain caffeine, chocolate, dark chocolate especially, 70% or more above of cacao. So, you have the added benefit of the caffeine in those products of coffee, tea, and chocolate providing some benefit to release the fat into the blood to be used as energy, and then also to provide some additional antioxidants-- naturally occurring antioxidants and levels that the body can benefit from.

So, yeah, I'm favorable to it, especially if people can tolerate it, but it's not for everybody. Sometimes, people are sensitive to the caffeine in terms of heart palpitations, irritability, insomnia, which happen also to be the same things that people experience when they have withdrawal from caffeine. So, it can be a double-edged sword. But I think for a lot of people who can tolerate it and enjoy it, just making sure that they're consuming it earlier on in the day is ideal, so that it doesn't interfere with resting and sleep.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, I think because when it comes to the whole caffeine world or even fat burner supplement world, which a lot of those are really crazy, and I wouldn't put them in my mouth, but I think people see it and they think, "Oh, well, there's no magic pill to burn fat," which is true. But if there are compounds which unlock the ability to burn fat, I think that's huge. So, being smart about it sounds like the way to go.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, I think we definitely don't have an underemphasis on caffeine. We have plenty of it available at our disposal anytime we want. So, yeah, if anything we have to be a little bit more cautious about overconsuming it. So, yeah, that equivalent of one cup to two cups a day is a safe recommendation as long as it's done earlier on in the day, it can be of benefit to people.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. And then another question I'm dying to ask you. You have a fascinating study. I know I had the title here, but it was looking at thermogenic response to a processed type of diet, but a nutritionally rich one compared to whole foods and actually finding a higher thermogenic effect with the supplemental form. What were your findings with that? That was really surprising to me.

Paul J. Arciero: That was. That was a fascinating study. I think if it was the one that you're referring to, it's the postprandial thermic response to unprocessed whole food meal.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I found it. Yeah, Lower Postprandial Thermogenic Response to an Unprocessed Whole Food Meal Compared to an Iso-Energetic/Macronutrient Meal Replacement in Young Women, August 2020.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. This was a really interesting study. We wanted to see-- We fed these two different breakfast meals. So, there's a lot of controversy over meal replacements. We wanted to somewhat dispel that because there's different processing that takes place with more traditional processed foods that are highly refined and not necessarily nutritionally engineered. They're looking to provide palatable food, high simple sugars, high refined carbohydrate, not very healthy from a perspective of nourishment, nutrient density. And so, we sought to change that. What we did was we took a group of women, we fed them two identical meals, so they ate pretty much the same thing, about half the number of calories in the meal, about 500 calories with carbohydrates, 26% fat, 24% protein. So, it was a relatively balanced if you want to use that much carbohydrate. We generally don't recommend carbohydrate intake that high. We're more on the side of a lower carbohydrate. Not quite to the level of ketogenic, but in some cases, we advocate for a much higher fat ratio compared to that level. But we were providing more of a typical meal.

And so, we gave a whole food meal or a meal replacement. What we found, given the same number of calories, same macronutrient distribution, the meal replacement, what we call nutritionally engineered meal, resulted in a much higher thermic response. So, they burned much more of their calories similar to what we found, actually interestingly enough with the vegetarian study that I described at the beginning. And so, this meal replacement just jacked up their calorie expenditure, energy expenditure, almost double compared to the group that was eating the whole food meal.

So, it's one of those conclusions and I have to be careful because I am a strong whole food proponent that I think sometimes we compartmentalize nutritionally engineered foods as being bad because they're processed. We can drink them out of a powdered container or already ready to drink mixed meal. I'm not saying all of them are necessarily good or bad, but some of them clearly can provide a nutritious meal replacement, especially if they have been formulated in a really smart way and beneficial way in terms of the ingredients that they use. And so, yeah, I think it was just important to highlight that.

Melanie Avalon: I had never seen that before. All the studies I had read before on that topic were finding the opposite. But like you said, I guess, there's a key difference in the formulation of those products.

Paul J. Arciero: They do range. And that happened despite any differences in hunger, satiety, blood glucose. So, that was interesting.

Melanie Avalon: What were you expecting to find?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Because of the composition of the meal, one obviously being a liquid and the other one being a whole food, yeah, I think we were thinking that there might be a difference in the blood glucose response, the satiety, because of, again, the administration of how the meal was provided. And so, that was a little bit in opposition of what we were thinking, that this liquid meal based on what most people would think, you would have this very high, perhaps, maybe glucose response, maybe the body wouldn't undergo as much digestion because it's already in a liquid form. And so, the fact that we found this higher thermic response was unusual.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe one last thing we could touch on, because I think it was the most recent publication I could find from you, but it was an editorial. How does exercise modify the course of Alzheimer's disease? It was really, really fascinating. But one thing I wanted to ask you about specifically was, you actually had a paragraph about the role of leptin in Alzheimer's. I was wondering what your thoughts are on that because leptin is a hormone that we talk about a lot on this show and how it's affected by things like diet and fasting and all the things. So, do you have thoughts on that?

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Well, as I say in that editorial, that's interesting that you found that one. That's been a hot topic for people lately, because leptin has those dual roles inside the body in one way. I don't know how you've talked about it on your podcast, but it's similar in how our body also deals with insulin. Insulin is obviously extremely important as is leptin in helping regulate our blood sugar insulin, leptin helping regulate our energy stores and our arcuate nucleus, and hypothalamus in terms of feeding and sending signals to the brain in terms of feeding and satiety. But I think it can get out of whack and we can become obviously leptin resistant. But we also know that, when leptin does get up too high, it has that inflammatory response. And so, we just have to be careful about that.

So, I talk about how leptin serves this dual role as this hormone in terms of how it helps mediate and regulate various endocrine and metabolic pathways, particularly around our energy storage. And then it's also a cytokine, which augments this inflammatory role. And so, we've shown, at least for as we age, and I'm talking about as we get into older age, lower leptin concentrations are actually associated with this increased risk in progression of Alzheimer's disease and related dementias. So, as much as we want to regulate leptin, if it gets too low, that's not healthy. But we know that when we have leptin out of control and it gets too high, it can become very pro-inflammatory and that's not beneficial.

So, we need to, again, undergo lifestyle strategies that provide the crosstalk between our energy stores, our body energy stores, particularly our adipose tissue and our central nervous system in a way that the communication is uninhibited. It's very sensitized. It's occurring in a very fluid, harmonic way. I think we do so many things to disrupt that communication signaling. We oftentimes have leptin circulating at too high levels, much like we do insulin. When leptin is circulating excessively, as it is too often in too many people, we just lose that sensitivity. We lose that communication pathway operating at the level that it should. We know that that creates a very pro-inflammatory state. It's not good for the brain. It's not good for the blood vessels of the body. It's not good for anything in the body.

So, what we have shown is that when our study participants undergo protein pacing and intermittent fasting, their leptin levels drop drastically from the very excessive levels that they're at. That's a very favorable response. It's not like they're dropping into these very dangerous low levels, where it would be implicated, perhaps, in this progression that we talked about with Alzheimer's when levels get too low. But a lot of times, that's associated with low energy stores when people are malnourished. So, there're other factors going on when that leptin gets down that too low. But if we can keep leptin communicating with the brain at a level that's manageable within the blood, so that it's not creating this pro-inflammatory state, it's not being dysregulated in its communication pathway with the brain, it's actually serving an instrumental role.

So, the good news is that we were able to document this really significant drop. In fact, in one of the studies that I sent to both of you, one of our first intermittent fasting protein pacing papers, we showed a 70% drop in leptin. And that was despite having other very favorable changes in the inflammatory state of the participants and cardiovascularly, the cardiovascular system improved drastically. We had much greater return times. We had very favorable changes in pulse wave velocity and augmentation index. So, we demonstrated that the arteries, the blood vessels, the vessels that manage our blood flow coming from the heart, all changed in a really favorable way. They got much more elastic and responsive at the same time these changes were happening in leptin.

So, yeah, leptin is a powerful, powerful hormone and plays a critical role in so many areas of the body. I think we just sometimes assume that it's only regulating our energy stores. That's not true. It's super important in general inflammation in our periphery, but also cognitively central nervous system wise.

Vanessa Spina: Just to circle back to the beginning, I know that one of the strategies for lowering leptin levels when they're too high is having a protein prioritized breakfast. So, I love that we can circle back to that. Now, one thing I wanted to make sure that we did touch on with you, when you were on the Optimal Protein podcast, you mentioned that you have an incredible amount of data that you collected on the gut microbiome. I wanted to make sure that we got to chat about that a little bit. That's definitely a topic that our listeners, and Melanie, and myself are fascinated by as well.

Paul J. Arciero: Vanessa, thanks for pointing that out. We have so much great data. I'm sorry that I can't share it all with you. Ah, it's heartbreaking. What we do know is that we've had some extremely favorable changes in the gut microbiome when people follow the intermittent fasting protein pacing compared to the calorie restriction. I know without having the no calorie--noncaloric fasting, we can't talk about that. I think that's a great next study. But at least from our model of the intermittent nutritional fasting and protein pacing compared to the caloric restriction, the diversity of the gut microbiome has changed extremely favorably. And that data will hopefully be coming out very soon. But I can just put that statement out that we have some very favorable changes.

The other thing that sometimes is not as emphasized, and I think we touched on this very briefly. But the self-reported gut, we call it the gut disturbance index. When people comment on their gut health just based on how they feel, "Oh, I have stomach issues. Oh, my stomach doesn't deal well when I eat that, or I'm having some GI upset and disturbance," people talk about it and refer to it a lot. But actually, being able to document this, there's not a lot of data right now that's out there that is examining how different dietary regimens impact our GI, at least in this case, the self-reported GI disturbance. What we were able to show in as little as four weeks and here's what I'm bringing this up for is because in as little as four weeks, we can manifest significant improvement in the GI response that people feel. We were able to show that in the four-week study that we published in the Frontiers in Nutrition, we were able to show gastrointestinal symptoms reduced significantly in people that were following a two-day intermittent fast compared to a one day. So, there's a little plug for people that do want to experiment with fasting a little bit longer. And that makes, I guess, sense too, because you're giving the gut a little bit of a longer time to rest.

Yes, but when we compared it to the group that was calorically restricting, so they were reducing their intake as well. As I already mentioned, they actually, over the course of the study period, were actually consuming slightly less on a weekly basis than the other group. We again showed that GI disturbance went down significantly in the intermittent fasting group, even though they were consuming slightly more calories over the course of a week. So, there was something really staying with that intermittent fasting. Something was really happening over the long haul in affecting a positive change in their GI disturbance symptoms. So, that's worth noting. There's something very unique and beneficial, not just happening within the gut microbiome that's changing very favorable with the diversity of the gut microbiome. So, the microflora, the different genus strains and things like that that were occurring. It was improving significantly. But the actual symptoms that people experienced were reducing significantly. So, yeah, another massive and I hope really valuable and important piece of scientific proof that, yeah, this intermittent fasting is real, and it definitely helps both within and in our heads in terms of symptoms.

Melanie Avalon: That's really exciting. Do you know when you'll be publishing that work?

Paul J. Arciero: Well, it's in the pipeline. And so, we haven't officially received an acceptance yet for it. So, we have to hold off until we get that. I'm hoping maybe, let's see, we're in June. This fall and I would be great to circle back with you and share that with you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, we'll have to have you back and talk about that, and maybe have some listener Q&A specifically for you if you're open to it. That'd be amazing.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah, sure.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely so amazing. I know, Vanessa and I both were just so grateful for everything that you are doing. You're just doing so much incredible work about topics that we personally are obsessed with, but that we see affecting so many people's lives. I really, really appreciate the humanity that you bring to all of it. You've just made it so approachable and understandable. Like I said, for listeners, definitely check out Dr. Arciero's books, because they are fascinating and also super motivational. They're very empowering. So, we just really can't thank you enough for everything that you're doing.

Paul J. Arciero: Thank you both for having me. And thank you for the work that you're doing. Melanie. I'm really grateful that you provide this platform to share this information with people. So, thanks for having me.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well--

Vanessa Spina: It was really wonderful to get to have this follow-up discussion with you.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it was amazing. I would love to have a debate episode, have you and David Sinclair. You and Valter Longo.

Paul J. Arciero: Yeah. Have you had David on?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, on my other show, a few times. Yeah, I just love all the different perspectives. So, it's really exciting to see your version, which is very similar in a way to their work, but the focus on the protein in a way, so completely opposite. At the same time, very, very exciting.

Paul J. Arciero: Well, I'll just make one comment on that and you can take it or leave it. But I think using humans in their natural living environment is really important, and their work that they're doing is amazing. It's cutting edge, it's providing incredible change, and it's revolutionary and innovative. But yeah, I'm hoping that there's some type of mutual coming together on this, because I think that in the perspective of the human model, living and engaging with the world in an active, dynamic, physical way where we know that these different modes of exercise play such a critical role in helping provide health, and cognitive, and performance benefit. I think to just, for example, recommend one type of exercise, high intensity exercise is the only means to provide health is a little bit short sighted.

To suggest that given protein's role in cancer, in certain cancer growth, yeah, I think we just need to continue to be open minded and look at it from the perspective of the free living out in the wild human in which we study and showing the benefits that are derived from this healthy amount of protein dispersed evenly over the course of a day. So far anyway is proven to win the day. And so, yeah, hopefully, we can make that fine tuning of recommendation.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I'm haunted by the question of longevity, and so then I'm definitely haunted by this low protein research versus real life application. Intuitively, I just feel like protein is not life, but it feels very crucial.

Paul J. Arciero: Well said. No, very well said. Yeah, I think that I hope comes to the surface with all of their work eventually here. But thank you, again, both of you for doing what you do and thank you for having me on and highlighting this research.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day, and we will hopefully talk to you soon.

Paul J. Arciero: Love to hear it when you're finished with it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. We'll send it to you, for sure.

Paul J. Arciero: Have a great day.

Melanie Avalon: Thanks.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you, Paul.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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LINKS

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Jul 02

Episode 324: Air Purification, Biking, Protein Intake & Exercise, Bolus Intake Of Protein, Allulose, Monk Fruit, Erythritol, Stevia, Hormones, Blood Sugar, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Allulose in human diet: the knowns and the unknowns

Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Lori - What does our body do with a bolus of protein if we have a shorter feeding window?

Listener Q&A: Samantha - Have you heard of Allulos?

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Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study

Allulose Attenuated Age‐Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF‐1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 324 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm great. Where should we start? I feel like it's been so long.

Vanessa Spina: I know. I've really missed podcasting with you. I was listening to today's episode, and just been really enjoying. Listening back to our episodes, it was just funny, because I remember when you first announced that you were going to be changing the host, and you and I first started talking, and I was so excited to be cohosting with you, but a tiny little part of me was like, "I'm going to miss listening [unintelligible [00:01:49]," but it's actually still quite fun to listen even though I already know what the answers are going to be, it's still fun. So, yeah, I'm really glad that we're back.

Melanie Avalon: I have so much fun. I was telling you this right before how I was talking with a friend yesterday and we were talking about the concept of loneliness and having connections and-- Well, actually, we're talking-- I was reading about this as well how especially men, I think, loneliness becomes more of an epidemic for them, especially when they age, and it's hard for them to find friend groups. But in any case, I was reflecting on how the people I get to hang out with daily in my work are also my best friends like you, and Scott, our supplement partner, and all the things. So, I'm really grateful for that.

Vanessa Spina: I am too. It makes it so much fun. I'm going to work at night and I'm so excited. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. I know. It's been so long. I just want to update listeners. I am still really, really obsessed now that I've used it some more with this CAROL AI Bike.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's like my gym. It's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I remember you said you were really into it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Because I think last time I talked about it, I just started it. I'm actually able to do it a couple times a week now, and it's just so easy. Basically for listeners, it's like HIIT, H-I-I-T, interval training, but it's called REHIT because it's even more efficient and it uses AI and the whole workout takes eight minutes. I was saying before, it acts like you're a hunter-gatherer walking in the woods, and then a tiger comes, and it yells at you, and you run. It's amazing. So, people are really looking to optimize their metabolic health and fitness and are not gym goers intense like me, then definitely check it out. The code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off of that. It's called CAROL AI. So, if you go to carolbike.com, you can learn about it, and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you a $100 off. I'm wondering if they'll be at the Biohacking Conference, which is next week, Vanessa. Oh, my goodness. I'm so scared. How do you travel so intensely? Give me your skills.

Vanessa Spina: I'm lucky that my parents brought me up traveling a lot. We did such long flights. But I always find packing to be challenging because there're so many micro decisions involved and you have to anticipate all these different scenarios and things. And now that we have a one-year-old, almost two-year-old, it adds a whole other [giggles] dimension to packing of anticipating their needs as well. And for me that's the toughest part about doing it. But I think I just try to plan as best as I can. Some of my friends make spreadsheet things, [giggles] especially when we have more than one kid, you know? My best friend, Jess, she has spreadsheet that she'll send to me on her packing methods and things like that, because there're just so many things you have to remember. But at the end of the day, if you need something, you can probably find it locally unless you're going to the middle of the jungle or something. But what is it about travel that do you find the most intimidating or challenging?

Melanie Avalon: Mostly, how it affects [giggles] the circadian rhythms of everything in my body. So, my digestion primarily, my sleep. It's really those things. So, it's not the actual travel. It is a lot to bring all your stuff, like, all my supplements, and all my red-light devices, and clothing and shoes, yeah. So, it's more like the environment I would like to have. Although, although, I just learned, when I interviewed-- Who was saying this? Oh, when I interviewed David Milburn at HypoAir, he makes a certain type of air purifier. Did you know this, Vanessa? He said that, if you call hotels and ask for the hypoallergenic rooms that a lot of hotels have special rooms for people with issues. And so, they'll use more cleaning stuff. Did you know that?

Vanessa Spina: No. That's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: He said most hotels do it and it'll have more air purification. The reason he knows about it is they actually outfit hotels with their technology for these either rooms or floors.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, interesting.

Melanie Avalon: So, I was like, "That's a--" I'm glad we're talking about this. After this, I'm going to--

Vanessa Spina: You could do that for your trip. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I'm going to do that. I'll report back.

Vanessa Spina: I was just reading about how air purity can affect the mitochondria and how important it is to have a HEPA air filter, which I've started looking into at least for our bedroom, because you spend so much time in there breathing every night. Yeah, I'm looking into one now. Apparently, it has to be HEPA designated in order to meet certain standards that would be beneficial to your mitochondria.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. So, that's really interesting. So, in the study, they were looking at HEPA filters specifically?

Vanessa Spina: This is in a new book I'm reading about Mitochondria and the Future of Medicine. It's really interesting, because they were listing out the top things that can affect your mitochondria. It's one of the topics I talk about on other podcasts when people interview me is, like, the ways that you can optimize your mitochondria. So, I'm always trying to learn more things. The author's number one thing when it came to optimizing mitochondria was getting a HEPA air filter. So, I was like, "Well, if it's our number one thing, then I think I need to look into this." It's because, as you know, the mitochondria need oxygen to make ATP and the ingestion of carbon monoxide is so bad for the mitochondria because it's basically a lack of oxygen. So, the ATP production stops and this buildup of electron happens. So, it's so crucial to mitochondria to have pure oxygen.

Melanie Avalon: So, that's really fascinating. When I interview David, I can't wait to air that episode, I learned so much about air purification, because apparently, there're multiple different modalities and methods. And so, HEPA, for example, has to do with particle size, so physically capturing particles in the air. The HEPA designation is designating that it can capture a certain-- I don't know if it's a certain particle size or number, but that's what it's addressing, basically. I should pull up the charts I had from when I interviewed him. So, in my apartment, I have multiple units that use HEPA air filter. So, I use Alen, I have AirDoctor, and then there're other technologies. So, his technology, HypoAir, it's crazy because it's like this really small little unit but what it does is it actually-- it's technology--

Now I'm forgetting exactly the technology. But it basically acts offensively instead of defensively. So, if you think of HEPA, HEPA is being like a defense because it's taking the particles out of the air. This actually changes something in the air that actually goes out and kills things. So, it kills mold spores and viruses on surfaces. And so, the air doesn't have to go through the unit for it to kill things everywhere in the room, which is really fascinating. Then there're other filters, a lot of HEPA filters will have carbon filters as well, and that helps absorb odors and gases. Yeah, there's just so much to air purification and I'm obsessed with it. I have so many units in my apartment.

Vanessa Spina: Do you also have plants? Because that's something that I know there're certain plants that can be natural air purifiers for you?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Well, I have you know my cucumbers-- I have cucumbers, I have a Dollar Tree, I have quite a few different plants. I know there are specific ones that are supposed to better, like, better at that. I'm not sure, you know, if any of mine meet those qualifications, but I do like the plants. Oh, I saw on your Instagram, your beautiful-- was that your deck that you did?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, we just redid the stone on the deck. So, we have a terrace going around, like, the front of our place and then on the side. And then we have a little garden on the side, and we are replacing the stone. It turned out really nice. They got it all done in one day. It just upgraded the side, because it was just like an older stone that had been there. Our building is actually quite new, but it just had been a bit weathered, so we replaced it. It looks all pretty now with the flowers and everything, but we actually live right next to a small forest. So, if you saw in the stories, there's just forest everywhere, and there's, basically, our deck, and then there's just forest. So, it's really amazing because we're still in the city too.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's best of both worlds.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really amazing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous. City and forest altogether?

Vanessa Spina: That's why I was telling you. We were so excited. Speaking of biking, when she kicked the episode off with CAROL Bike, we were so excited to get our bikes out. I keep telling you about it, because it's actually been three years since I've gotten to bike. Pete and I, that's what we would do every weekend. We would get on our bikes, go down, bike all along the river, stop somewhere, like, a cute little burger place and get burgers, and then get back on the bike. It was just so much fun. We did that all summer. And then, because I was pregnant and then had Luca, we haven't been able to. He's finally old enough that we got him a little bike seat, and he's on the bike seat on the back of Pete's bike, and so they go in front and I'm in the back, so I can watch him and interact with him, and we're just back at it finally it's absolute heaven just going through the woods. Because I was saying, the woods are all around us, we can just go up into the forest here, and bike for hours, and then discover little hidden castles in the woods and--

Melanie Avalon: Hidden castles?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one-- Yeah, there were .

Melanie Avalon: Wait, real hidden castles? Are they abandoned?

Vanessa Spina: Czech has the highest density of castles per capita in Europe. So, there're castles everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: Well, okay, wait, let's pause for one sec. Okay, so like people live in these castles?

Vanessa Spina: Well, some of them people still live. The original families will hand them down and they'll live in part of the castle, but that's what we do a lot of times on the weekend is go visit a castle. You can go to a tour of the interior. A lot of them still have original furniture in it. It's absolutely stunning. They have these incredible Venetian chandeliers from Murano in Italy. It's just so beautiful and so much fun. [giggles] We go to a lot of them on the weekends and we're starting to do that now that we're able to be more mobile and stuff. But there's one that we went to, we were just talking about this weekend, we stumbled upon and it looks like it used to have the Knights Templar or something there. We found another one that had all this grotto inside, and then we went inside, and there was all the Knights Templar relics and all of their, just like, clothes that they wore. It's just amazing, like, just find this stuff in the middle of nowhere sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: Woah. That's such an adventure.

Vanessa Spina: It's so much fun. Now we can take Luca with us. So, I want to get that CAROL Bike you're talking about, but we also love biking outside in the summer. It's just so amazing to be in nature. And now that we're back at it, it's all I think about during the week. It's like, I can't wait to go biking on Saturday and Sunday.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Now it's reminding me too growing up-- When I was growing up in Atlanta, I'm going to have to go back and find this. I'm going to do this. I wonder if it's still there. I remember outside of our neighborhood, there was a castle. It was like a person's normal house, but they made it look like a castle. It had like a moat, it had a moat. [laughs] I'm going to go find that by myself. When I first moved back here, I was like, "I'm going to go look at my childhood house." So, I drove to it and it was in a not the safest part of town now. Everything has changed. So, I drove and I just parked, and I just sat there for a second, and everybody was looking at me, and then I left. [laughs] But I looked at it for-- It's so crazy to see things from that, like, from your childhood. This was, like, my real childhood. This is until I was probably four or so.

Vanessa Spina: And you're thinking of moving, right?

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I should move to Austin.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so jealous. I would love to live there.

Melanie Avalon: You should. No, not really. You're in Prague with castles. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: I know. We could form this community with all the biohackers and people who are interested in health optimization, create some, like, what is it, like, a compound.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Commune? No, is that bad? I don't know the correct terminology. Yeah. No, I am seriously considering it. I feel like everybody I know now or a lot of the people I know in this sphere, all live in Austin. It's the place to be. Is it even hotter than here, Georgia? I don't know.

Vanessa Spina: Probably similar. But I know in the summer, when I would go to KetoCon, it was insanely hot.

Melanie Avalon: Is it more dry though? It's drier than the south.

Vanessa Spina: I'm not sure exactly, but I just know that you just go in the AC because it's so hot.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, we shall see. Okay, next episode, I have to tell you about the wedding, because I realized it's been so long since we've talked.

Vanessa Spina: I actually was planning to ask you about it. Okay. Let's save that recap for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Okay. So, one quick announcement before we jump in. My berberine supplement, we're we are launching subscriptions, and we launched a large bottle for serrapeptase a few months ago, and that went really well. We want to do it for berberine as well. It was easier with serrapeptase. With berberine, it's hard to tell how often people are taking it and how much they're taking. So, we're going to do a trial subscription thing where it's like you guys get to help us know what you want. So, this ends July 17th. So, you have a little bit longer, so grab it now. You can get either two bottles for two months, so the normal bottles or two bottles for three months. And you will get grandfathered in for life on a major discount. I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but I don't want to say because I don't want to be wrong. But it'll be basically one of the biggest discounts you can get and you'll be grandfathered in. So, as long as you keep the subscription, you'll keep that discount.

Then based on how that goes, we'll make a large bottle based on what's more popular. So, it's going to help us know what you guys want with a large bottle, and it also gives people the chance to get on a berberine subscription. It's really shocking. I mean this. I thought when I made my berberine that it would be the same. I was taking Thorne before. I thought it would look the same on my CGM, because I like Thorne. It's crazy that effect I've seen on my personal blood sugar levels using AvalonX berberine, and other people have said this as well, like, friends, other influencers. So, if you're looking to help your blood sugar and work with that, it also has antiaging effects because it affects the AMPK pathway, it can help with cholesterol, it can help with gut microbiome. It's really an awesome supplement. So, avalonx.us, you can get that subscription now. You can get updates at avalonx.us/emailist. And you can get text updates with a 20% off coupon code when you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And now with all of that, before we jump in, Vanessa, do you want to give your landing page for your protein powder that's coming out in the future?

Vanessa Spina: I am so excited about Tone protein, which is a scientifically formulated protein that is optimized for building muscle, triggering muscle protein synthesis. I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works. But if you would like to get on the exclusive VIP list, you'll receive a very special launch discount, and you just need to sign up with your name and email at toneprotein.com. That's toneprotein.com and I'm sure you'll link that up in the show notes for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited for you. I think about you now all the time. Last night, I was listening to an interview all about protein powders. Oh, it was about protein powders and BCAA. It was about everything protein and they were talking about their products, and I was like, "Vanessa's going to have the best product ever."

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. That means so much to me.

Melanie Avalon: Aren't you focusing on formulating it to be the--? I don't want to put words in your mouth. I feel very good about your formulation.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to be sharing more details on how it works, but it is-- Yeah, it's being scientifically optimized for building muscle in a way that no other protein is doing or has done. So, I'm really excited about it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Okay. So, yes, friends. Okay. So, on that note, shall we jump into questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I can't wait to get into them.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a question from Lori, and this was actually from Facebook. I think it was probably when I was asking for questions for you in Facebook. So, Lori says, "What does our body do with the bolus of protein, speaking of protein, if we have a shorter feeding window two to four hours? I've been trying to eat 100 grams of protein a day in my feeding window, but I have heard on other podcasts like, Huberman Lab, that it is best to take in the protein in two to three separate meals of 40 to 50 grams each meal, advantages/disadvantages. And then she also wants to know about the timing of protein intake with exercise."

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's such a great question. I'm sure you have lots of thoughts on this as well, Melanie. But I'll give you my opinion on the pros and cons. Optimally, if you were just going for building the most amount of muscle possible, so in the case of someone who's a professional body builder, for example, or just someone who really wants to build the most muscle possible regardless of other goals, that's your number one goal, you would want to eat at least 30 grams of protein as many times as you possibly could in the day. Now, most of us are not trying to be professional bodybuilders, but every time you eat a certain amount of protein, so around 30 grams of protein from lean chicken breast, or steak, or pork, or eggs, you are increasing the level of leucine in your blood, which is an amino acid. It's part of the branched-chain amino acids, but it actually has the biggest or strongest effect on triggering mTOR for muscle protein synthesis. And so, if you have under this amount of leucine, it's called the leucine threshold, basically. If you exceed it, which is for most people around 3 grams, it can be somewhere for 2.5 to 3 grams depending on how old you are. The younger you are, you can basically just look at protein and you'll build muscle. But if you're over 30, then you're probably going to need at least maybe 2.7 to 3 grams of leucine at that meal.

So, what that means is that, when you exceed that threshold, your body starts making muscle. The thing is, if you eat more than what you need to trigger muscle protein synthesis, you are not going to trigger it more. You can only trigger it once in one sitting. So, if you eat 30 grams of protein, you'll trigger it once. If you eat 100 grams of protein at that meal, you'll also trigger it once. So, if you're eating all of your protein in just one meal a day, then if your goal isn't to build more muscle than anything else, if you have other goals. For example, longevity or optimizing just body composition overall. There're so many different goals that you could have, then that's fine.

But if your goal is to say put on 4 to 6 pounds of muscle in a year, you're going to be missing out on those opportunities. I would put it at the very minimum to split it up into two separate meals or three up to four being more optimal if that's your goal. So, some people say, if you eat all of that protein in a bolus that-- I've interviewed amazing protein scientists like, Dr. Don Layman, who say that, "Basically, the rest for every 100 grams of protein that you eat, you get about 60 grams of glucose," like, basically, the protein just turns to glucose. But if you are eating it at separate meals, most of that protein is going to go towards building muscle. So, it depends on what you're optimizing for. I would say, at the very least, if your goal is 100 grams approaching a day to split it up into two at minimum up to three separate meals. If you're doing two, like, 40 to 50 grams, like you said, if you're doing three meals a day, then 30 to 35 grams per meal.

In terms of timing, protein intake with exercise, for most people who are not professional athletes, your anabolic window lasts about 24 hours. So, you could eat protein even the day before, like say, if you had protein at dinner and then work out the next day in the morning, and that protein is still going to go towards helping you lay down new muscle fibers at that workout. So, it's usually about 24 hours for anyone who isn't a professional athlete. Professional athletes are people who have been doing, for example, resistance training for years, they may need to time it a little bit closer within two hours to four hours of the meal. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That was amazing. Quick question. So, at the very beginning, you said, basically, ideally, if you're wanting to get maximum muscle, everything that you would be eating this protein as much as you can throughout the day, what is the actual window of each of those times?

Vanessa Spina: You would basically eat when you wake up. Professional bodybuilders, they'll eat proteins six, seven, eight times a day. That's why they're just always eating, like, the whole pretty much every two hours. So, I think within a couple hours, you could trigger it again. So, for example, in the Paul Arciero, the protein pacing, they had very specific time windows where they were eating that protein, every two hours to three hours. I think sometimes, three hours to four hours, but making sure to get it at regular intervals throughout the day. That's typically what aesthetic bodybuilders do. They wake up, have a protein meal at breakfast and some of them will even have a protein shake before going to bed, because it can also help with retaining muscle.

Melanie Avalon: That sounds very exhausting.

Vanessa Spina: It's a job. It's a job in itself, like, you're carrying around chicken breast with you everywhere you go.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, I agree with everything that you said. I will say, because I know people get worried about muscle retention with fasting, for example, specifically. It's a two-part thing, because you were talking about the anabolic window of exercise lasting for 24 hours. So, not the same thing because that's related to exercise but, for example, with intermittent fasting, a lot of people will eat all of their protein within a shorter window and they're worried about potential muscle loss. So, this is just N of 1 for me and again, I eat a protein a lot, and I do eat it over quite a few hours. I wonder your thoughts on this Vanessa.

I eat so much protein and I wonder if that's why I've been able to, not just maintain but build muscle with daily intermittent fasting window for years and years. Do you think most people would struggle with their protein intake in a shorter window?

Vanessa Spina: Sorry. The question is, would people struggle--?

Melanie Avalon: So, I think about this all the time, because I eat such a high-protein diet and I eat it in a "one-meal-a-day situation" and I have for a decade. I've had zero issues with muscle maintenance and zero issues with gaining muscle. So, I know it's possible, basically, in a shorter window. But I also wonder is the effect, is it because I'm eating so much protein, more than most people would. I just wonder how in the practical day to day life, do more people who do a shorter eating window find issues with this rather than not and your experience with all people you've worked with?

Vanessa Spina: I think because you're younger, that's part of it. You don't need to consume as much. Especially when you're in your 20s and 30s, you just don't need to consume as much protein and you don't need to consume as much leucine to just maintain what you have. Because every day you have a certain amount of muscle protein breakdown occurring. You just want to make sure that you trigger muscle protein synthesis enough, so that it at least equals the amount of muscle protein breakdown. You'll be fine with just one bolus of protein what you're doing every day. I don't want to say this will happen for you, but in 20 years or maybe 30 years, you might need to do two meals, I don't know. You might be fine because you're consuming such a big bolus of protein that you're probably hitting 5 grams, 6 grams, 7 grams of leucine, which is what you need when you're in your 50s and 60s. So, it could be fine just for maintenance and building. But if you were going to go be a full-time bodybuilder, you probably would find that you would need to do more than one meal just to compete with the amount of muscle that other people are putting on by consuming protein all day long.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Exactly. Yeah. Well, you hit on exactly what I've wondered, because whenever I hear people talk about this, and I told you before the show that I was listening to an episode all about this last night, and they talk about which I agree with and believe that as you age, it's more of an issue basically after-- Yeah, what I just said. I'm like, "But am I the unicorn here?" Because I just like to seeing myself eating all this protein for like ever. I just love it.

Vanessa Spina: Well, do you know how many grams you do in a day?

Melanie Avalon: I should probably check. I literally eat pounds and pounds of meat and seafood every night. I could throw it in Cronometer really quick.

Vanessa Spina: Maybe you're somewhere between 150 grams to 200 grams. Think one pound is like 50-- usually one pound is around 50 grams. So, if you're doing three pounds, it'd be around 150 grams, fours pounds would be like around 200 grams.

Melanie Avalon: This is a pound of protein, like, but salmon's fattier is 99 grams. Is that right? Let's see, tilapia 120 grams, trout 92 grams.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Maybe I'm thinking, maybe it's closer to 100 grams per pound.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I always thought with chicken, but chicken's very lean.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, chicken has so much protein in it. It's crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I would say it's probably in the 200s of protein grams.

Vanessa Spina: It may be also because you're not just eating it all within half an hour or an hour. You are eating it within your-- You have four hour or five-hour eating windows, right, something like that? So, maybe it's also spreading it out a little bit. So, you have this constant trickle of amino acids.

Melanie Avalon: I think that does need to be considered, because I probably am digesting that meal for a long time. So, it's probably a slower release of the protein of the amino acids.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because it takes four hours to five hours after a meal for them all to be broken down.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I did not mean to turn this into about me. I just been thinking a lot about that with the aging aspect. Interestingly, last night in the interview I was listening to, he was saying with leucine that it can actually turn catabolic. Does that make any sense to you?

Vanessa Spina: Mm-mm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I meant to take notes, such a fail. I was like, "I've asked Vanessa about this."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Ask me when you find out or send me the podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I will, I will.

Vanessa Spina: It would be catabolic if you eat a meal and you don't get enough leucine.

Melanie Avalon: I'll have to relisten and see what he was saying about it specifically. It's really interesting. He was talking about the EAAs and people used to focus on just leucine, val-- What are the three? Leucine, valine, and isoleucine.

Vanessa Spina: Isoleucine. Yeah, isoleucine is like a secondary triggered after leucine, but leucine, like, by itself. It just blows away the other ones for muscle protein synthesis activation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Gotcha. Yeah, I think it was in the context of-- I will revisit it and circle back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Does that answer her question mostly?

Vanessa Spina: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Our next question is from Samantha Tuff. "Morning. Just a quick hey y'all, I hope you are doing well. I'm sorry about the trolls of the universe. They're crazy, and jealous, and you guys are rocking it. Keep it up."

Melanie Avalon: I'll jump in to explain what she's talking about there, because I don't think you were here, Vanessa. Cynthia and I had a few episodes where we were talking about the environment of social media and just some of the negative energy we had experienced. So, I think this was Samantha reaching out to be supportive, which is very kind. So, thank you, Samantha.

Vanessa Spina: She asks, "Have you heard of allulose? I am going to do some research, but thought who best to send down a new rabbit hole than Melanie. Have a fantastic weekend. Hearts." Thanks, Sam Tuff.

Melanie Avalon: I like that you read the emoji hearts. We love emojis, by the way, if listeners ever want to add emojis.

Vanessa Spina: More emojis

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Just go whatever speaks to you. [giggles] Wait. Question, Vanessa. When you're deciding what emojis to use, do you do what I do, which is I just look at all them, I'm like, "What speaks to me right now"?

Vanessa Spina: For sure. It's like a catalog of feelings.

Melanie Avalon: It's like, I was talking with a friend the other day, and we needed to come up with an emoji to communicate something specific between us. It was so fun. I was like, "I just need to look through the catalog. I need to pick the one that will embody this vibe." What did we do before emojis?

Vanessa Spina: I don't know, but whenever there's an update, I'm so excited. Sometimes, I'll just scroll through to see if there're any new ones that I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, there's this."

Melanie Avalon: You further convinced me to update, so that I can see, when I get the question mark boxes, it kills me.

Vanessa Spina: So exciting. There's a new one which is, like, angel wings really into it right now.

Melanie Avalon: You know my sister, because I couldn't see what my sister was sending me, and I told her, so she sent me screenshot, and it was this beautiful new blue shade of heart.

Vanessa Spina: That's the heart I keep using. That's the one you're like I can't see what you're sending me. It's always the pretty blue heart."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Okay, I'm going to update. I'm going to join you in the blue heart, angel wing club.

Vanessa Spina: That's way better than just seeing a box question mark.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It reminds me of Mario though.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know. [laughs] My favorite.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, back to the question. Thank you, Sam, for your question. It's funny. So, I've had this one in the lineup for a little bit, but I didn't answer it because I thought we had just answered it. But then I remembered when we answered this, it was when Gin was the cohost. So, it's been a while. So, time to revisit this question. I went down the rabbit hole as requested and learned a lot. So, before I jump into this, Vanessa, do you use allulose?

Vanessa Spina: I use stevia and monk fruit, but we're actually researching allulose right now for the protein. So, I am super excited to hear your answer on this.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, this is exciting. Wow, this is in real life.

Vanessa Spina: My brother randomly this weekend was like, "I think you should use allulose in your protein powder."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is exciting. This is perfect. Well, I have noticed probably throughout the past year-ish, year and a half that I feel like allulose as the sweetener has skyrocketed. Well, it used to be artificial sweeteners. Let me know if you agree with this timeline. I feel like, first, it was artificial sweeteners. Then it was erythritol and stevia and they of floated there for a little bit. And then stevia, I feel got more popular. And then monk fruit came in. Then it was like stevia and monk fruit.

Vanessa Spina: What do you like?

Melanie Avalon: Well, back in the day, I don't use any of them really now. I did like stevia, especially when I was struggling with Lyme disease. I read a study about how stevia was anti-Lyme. So, I went through a phase where I was all the stevia, like, on everything. I don't know, I like stevia and I liked monk fruit. How about you?

Vanessa Spina: I like stevia or stevia. I never had any issues with it. I like that it's made from a plant. But there was a concerning report out recently that it can negatively affect male fertility. I was talking about it with Scott, because I was like, "Maybe we should look into a different one." I said, first, someone commented that on my post and I was like, "Do you have the source?" They didn't reply back. But I asked Scott and he was like, "Yeah. I saw that report." So, I was like, "Send it to me, please." So, I don't know yet if there's any truth to it or validity at all or if it was one of those things where there was a weird clickbait headline like the thing that happened with erythritol, which was, yeah, crazy.

Melanie Avalon: What happened with erythritol? That's ringing a bell a little bit.

Vanessa Spina: There was a study that came out this, I think it was sometime around Christmas time maybe or the early in the New Year, and it was a study showing that it increased risk for cardiac events. But when all these people in the community started breaking it down like, Robb Wolf, and all these people. Dr. Ryan Lowery, I know he did a really comprehensive breakdown and he was just explaining why. In the study, it turned out that the body can actually endogenously produce erythritol when people are obese. So, that's actually what was happening is that, there were higher levels of erythritol. Because of that, more so obesity was linked with cardiac events or a prior probability of that. They were somehow trying to paint erythritol the sweetener as the issue. But there're a lot of different breakdowns that were really good explaining it. But of course, the headline, I had so many people send it to me who just saw the headline and were freaking out about it, I don't really use it, but I have recommended it in my cookbooks and stuff. So, I was really glad to see that what people were saying it was.

Melanie Avalon: As far as taste goes, I do really like the taste of erythritol. And then, yes, stevia. I remember, I was using monk fruit a lot and then I was reading about how it could possibly mess with hormones, and I was like, "Oh, it's always something. Always something."

Vanessa Spina: So, allulose might be the

Melanie Avalon: So, what is allulose? So, actually, it is a sugar. It's a low energy monosaccharide sugar. It's naturally found in some fruits, so kiwis, figs, and raisins, but in very small amounts. And then compared to sugar, it's about 70% of the sweetness of sugar. It's 0.2 calories a gram, so that's 95% less calories compared to straight up sucrose what we think of as white sugar. So, here's the thing. It is similar to fructose and it actually uses the exact same transport and distribution pathways that fructose uses, but we don't have enzymes to metabolize it. So, basically, what happens is, it is a sugar, it tastes sweet, it goes down the fructose pathway, we don't extract energy from it. It actually almost completely extracted with the help of the kidneys and doesn't provide any calories. So, that's really cool.

On top of that, so not only is it sweet without any calories, there's actually been a lot of studies on its effect on blood sugar levels and insulin levels. It seems to have really beneficial effects. So, it actually has anti-diabetic effects. The majority or a lot of the studies especially in the beginning were in Asian populations, but they were pretty consistently showing this data. I found a newer study. It was called Effects of D-allulose on glucose tolerance and insulin response to a standard oral sucrose load: results of a prospective, randomized, crossover study. So, this was a 2021 study. They looked at a Western population to see the effects of allulose and they compared it.

So, basically, the participants were given a standard load. So, they were given a basic load of normal sugar, 50 grams and then they were randomized to either a placebo or they were given more and more doses of allulose, so 2.5 grams, 5 grams, 7.5 grams, 10 grams. It was a crossover treatment, so people did both things. And then they measured glucose and insulin levels to see the effects. They found it was dose dependent. Meaning, the higher the dose of allulose, the greater the effect of reducing blood sugar levels in the allulose group 30 minutes after the dose compared to the placebo. So, that is pretty cool. It didn't continue beyond that. They didn't have continued lower blood sugar after the 30-minute mark, but it did happen right after. Also, the insulin levels were trending towards lower as well.

Again, it's similar to the sugar, the insulin. Later on, it didn't have any effects, but it did immediately after the meal. So, their conclusion was that, I'll just read it to you. It said, " This is the largest study assessing the effects of D-allulose in Westerners demonstrating an early dose-dependent reduction in plasma glucose and insulin levels as well as decreased postprandial glucose and insulin excursion in subjects, oh, without diabetes." So, these were normal people. So, in addition to what I was saying about how the allulose is basically processed, but not processed by the body. There's also been a lot of other hypotheses. What's the plural of hypothesis?

Vanessa Spina: Hypotheses.

Melanie Avalon: Hypotheses. Hypotheses, I feel like I should know that for why this happens. It's like berberine. When I was researching berberine and I realized there're all these potential ways that it may be working. That seems to be the same with allulose. So, it may inhibit enzymes directly in the body, which suppress the glycemic response to carbs. It may also directly slow the absorption of glucose if it's there at the same time. So, basically, not only is it tricking the body, and tasting sweet, and not being metabolized, it might actually at the same time impede or stop the body from also absorbing any sugar taken with it. So, I've been reading about how people with blood sugar issues will actually add allulose to the carb meals to actually beneficially affect the absorption of the carbs as in slow it down or inhibit it a bit, which is very interesting.

It has been shown to stimulate glycogen synthesis in the liver and also promote faster restoration of glycogen in the liver and muscles after exercise. That's really interesting. So, not only is it impeding carbohydrate absorption, it's also helping promote the actual glycogen in the liver, which is I feel like that's a little bit counterintuitive, but very interesting. And then it also induces glucagon like peptide 1, GLP-1 released for intestinal cells and can regulate glucose concentrations after glucose and allulose intake. So, yeah, it seems to have a lot of really cool facts. Then I went down the rabbit hole, because I was reading in one list of benefits where they said it had potential antiaging properties and I was like, "What?" So, then I went and looked that up. These are all in animal trials, but there was one trial in mice called Allulose Attenuated Age-Associated Sarcopenia via Regulating IGF-1 and Myostatin in Aged Mice and they found that allulose actually improved sarcopenia in mice, and enhanced the antioxidant properties, and it was all by altering mRNA in their bodies and affecting IGF-1. So, it might support muscle maintenance like we were talking about earlier.

Another study, again, this was in yeast, they actually found that allulose affected, it might work as a calorie restriction mimetic. Meaning, it can send signaling to the body, like, a calorie restriction or fasting would do, specifically activating the AMPK pathway that we talk about a lot, which is you have the AMPK pathway and the mTOR pathway. AMPK, it's activated by things like calorie restriction, fasting, exercise, and it helps the body with repair, and it just has a lot of antiaging potential to it. Allulose might affect that as well. So, that was a lot there. But it sounds like allulose has a lot of potential benefits when it comes to blood sugar control, insulin and it's more practical because I know that was like a lot of sciency stuff. I think it bakes very similar to sugar. So, you can use it very similar to sugar in your goods, and it doesn't really have-- You've tried it, right, Vanessa, have you?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't actually tried it before.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so, it actually tastes very similar to sugar and acts the same. It doesn't really have any weird aftertaste at all. It's very surprising, actually. So, it seems to be a pretty cool supplement. I do have one concern about it, but before I do that, do you have any thoughts based on all of that?

Vanessa Spina: Well, I'm feeling really good about it. And then I was doing a little bit of research, and it turns out that it's banned in Europe, because it's a potential carcinogen. Canada also, but there's also current applications to have allulose approved in Europe. So, it sounds like the most recent update is that, it's actually going through the process as a novel sugar for approval. This was back in September. It's going through this process, a novel foods process in order to gain approval and be able to be sold in the EU. I don't know if it's in Canada. It's definitely approved by the FDA. There're some German researchers that published a study in nature and they said that allulose has real potential to meet customers' needs in the EU when replacing sugar or sweeteners with different forms of sugar, and taste is one of the most important factors. As you were saying, it tastes good, followed by its glycemic effect, and then on insulin and then the price, dental health, and calorie content. So, it sounds like it might get approved, but it's not yet.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because I'm just googling carcinogen. I wonder what studies they're using, because I'm not finding any studies. Nothing's coming up for studies showing that it's a carcinogen.

Vanessa Spina: So, it just hasn't been approved for use yet in Canada or Europe, because it's considered a novel food, which means it hasn't been available long enough for sufficient testing according to the governments in Europe. So, it may have no carcinogenic effect at all. That was just one thing that I read, so maybe it's new and they need more studies in order to approach this. It sounds like they're just being a little more cautious with it, but it's been improved in the US by the FDA since 2012. So, it sounds like they just need more research, but these German researchers just submitted a study, and so it's going through the process.

Melanie Avalon: Did it say the timing on that?

Vanessa Spina: That was September of 2022, the most recent, September.

Melanie Avalon: I'll be really curious to see how that unfolds. Studies were overwhelmingly positive. I did find one negative study and it was just hypothesizing. It was saying that, in vitro so not in vivo, but in vitro, basically, if they put this certain type of bacteria called [giggles] Klebsiella pneumoniae, which is an opportunistic human pathogen. So, basically, if they take this bacteria that we don't want flourishing in us and they put it in as a culture and they give it allulose, it uses the allulose, so they were saying that we need to make sure it doesn't support the growth of problematic bacteria. That was the only negative thing I could find.

My thoughts, "negative," and this is all-- This is going to be the case, I think, with any artificially sweetened thing, which it's mostly after interviewing Mark Schatzker for his book-- Well, he wrote The Dorito Effect, but he also wrote The End of Craving. I don't know if I talked about this when you were on the show, but he talks about studies where they give people artificially sweetened beverages, where they were either calorie matched to the actual amount of sugar or not calorie matched. Does this ring a bell?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we talked about it before-- Yeah, it's like his theory that it's really just a mismatch in what you're signaling to the body is coming in and what is actually coming in that causes confusion with the metabolism.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, look at you. On top of it. Yeah, so, he talks about these really fascinating studies where basically when people were given mismatched beverages. If it was artificially sweetened and it actually had less calories than it tasted like it did, it actually stopped the people's [giggles] metabolisms. So, it's really ironic, because basically, they'd be taking in less calories, but their body thought it was sweeter and it freaked out and it downregulated the metabolic rate. So, his whole theory is, well, not his whole theory, he has a lot of theories. But one of his theories is that, artificially sweetened things might create confusion with the body. So, that is separate from allulose. That's just the concept in general of artificially sweetened things. But when it comes to actual allulose, it's overwhelming the positive studies on it.

Vanessa Spina: I agree. I think it sounds overwhelmingly positive. My brother mentioned it, because he said, maybe it's the only sweetener that he can actually tolerate. I think that's also an issue that people have with these sweeteners is for some people they cause gastric distress. And so, yeah, if it's one that is well tolerated that would be a big plus too.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting and something to think about for the labeling if you do go this route and you'll come to this. I don't know if this will change, but when they label it on the packages, it has to be labeled as a carb, I believe. So, when you look at the label, it'll say that it has all these grams of sugar, but then you have to have a disclaimer saying that's from allulose and it's not metabolized.

Vanessa Spina: I've seen that for sugar alcohols. I wonder if it would be the same for stevia or for all of them, because I would never consider stevia a carb.

Melanie Avalon: Stevia, no. Monk fruit, no. Sugar alcohols, yes, but labeled as a sugar alcohol. The problem with allulose is that you have to label it at least right now, it's labeled as a sugar. So, it's really confusing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because it sounds like it technically is one, but your body just doesn't metabolize it.

Melanie Avalon: It requires a lot of education and it requires a lot of disclaimers on the bag to let people know that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate you sharing all that incredible research on it and I'm sure listeners will as well, because it was so comprehensive. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: No. Thank you. I'm really excited for your journey of designing the protein and what you-- You have to keep as much as you can without giving things away. You have to let me know. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yes, definitely. I'm just so excited for the formulation. I think stevia probably is going to make the most sense. I'm super interested to learn about all of them. It sounds like everything. There're pros and cons with everything. But yeah, we just got to research it a little bit more. But it's so much fun to just be in that creative space with it.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I will say if I'm just putting on my forecast hat, I do see allulose being the future, like, it's the trend I've seen. So, I think it will become more and more popular.

Vanessa Spina: I definitely have seen it trending more and more. So, I got to try it. Maybe I'll try it when we're in Denver, because I was pleasantly surprised with monk fruit. I tried that a couple of times at KetoCon, actually and I thought it was great. And Pete actually liked that one, he doesn't like the other one. So, I did get that one a little while for him. But it's great to see more stuff, more options available. Yeah, I personally use stevia most days, a little bit in my yogurt, sometimes in some water with lemon, like, make a lemonade, or in my protein shakes.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. This is so exciting. It's in real life, in real time. I feel like the audience is helping us develop the protein powder, so exciting. I love it.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, so many great questions on this episode.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, I remember we love emojis, just email questions@ifpodcast.com or go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode324, and those will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so that's super helpful. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. All right, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we wrap this up?

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to catch you all on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Talk to you next week. Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jun 25

Episode 323: Re-HIIT, Heated Fruit, Cold Therapy, Cold Plunging, Cryotherapy, Mood Boosting, Brown Adipose Tissue, Muscle Growth, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Peter Attia: The Drive #254 – AMA #47: Cold therapy: pros, cons, and its impact on longevity

Welcome to Episode 323 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

go to carolbike.com and use the code melanieavalon to get $100 off!

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Niki - Cold Therapy

Andrew Huberman: Huberman Lab: The Science & Use of Cold Exposure for Health & Performance

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 323 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 323 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing, feeling great. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing really well. I have a new contraption in my life, I'm a little bit obsessed with.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, really? I want to know.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. You are a gym goer, correct?

Vanessa Spina: Usually, but since having Luca, I work out at home.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Before Luca, did you do cardio, weights?

Vanessa Spina: Kind of a mix of both, depending on what I was working on at the time. But I also like to just do stuff in nature as much as possible. So, like walking, it's my time to listen to podcasts walking in nature, walking in the forest, hiking and we do a lot of that in Prague. Just like lots of outdoor activity and stuff. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, rapid fire question. Sorry. [chuckles] In Prague, in the outdoors, what animals do you have? Are there bears?

Vanessa Spina: It's like the cutest question.

Melanie Avalon: I need to know. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: I don't know if there's bears. I think the wildest thing that you would come across in the forest would be like a boar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, aren't those really intense?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I don't think I would be deep enough in the forest to encounter a boar [laughs] probably, mostly they don't really have so many squirrels and things. It's more like a lot of birds and bunnies. There're a lot of bunnies.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Nothing super dangerous.

Vanessa Spina: No, but I mean, like, the forests that I'm hiking are around our place and they're connected to parks and stuff, so there're huge parks. I think most of wildlife has moved out of them.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. I'm learning so much about Prague. To answer your question, I'm not a huge gym goer, as in I'm not a gym goer. And I've talked at length about EmSculpt on the show, so I do that. I find that incredible for building muscle, and then I wear weights during the day. But then when it comes to cardio, I pretty much just live my life [chuckles] and park far away and wear weights to the grocery store and all that stuff. But I have historically been intrigued and done high intensity interval training. And now there's this new version of it called REHIT. Are you familiar with this?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. We were talking about it, I think, on a recent episode, because of Dave.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Okay, so I did talk about it. Yes. I got the CAROL bike. Yes. Oh, my goodness. I'm obsessed.

Vanessa Spina: This is the bike that integrates AI and biofeedback, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I am so obsessed.

Vanessa Spina: So, you love it well?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs] Can I tell you about it?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to know.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Friends, I literally, exercise bikes are not my thing, so I was very suspicious. I'm obsessed, I'm going to stop saying that. So, it's an exercise bike, like Vanessa said that integrates AI. You wear a heart rate monitor that syncs with the bike. It has this screen and so you have to train it at the beginning. But basically, what it does is it uses AI. It coaches you through these REHIT, which apparently is the more efficient, faster form of HIIT, high intensity interval training and the purpose with that is to get the maximum, maximum bang for your buck health wise in the least amount of time possible. And so, the bike actually-- so it coaches you through these sessions where you go slow and then you go really, really fast and you go slow and then really, really fast, and it coaches you through it. And what I love about it, it adjusts the resistance of the pedals so that you're always exerting as much energy as you need to be exerting. So basically, like, if you're slowing down and it knows you need to be going harder, it'll make it harder to pedal so that you are still-- I don't know. I'm acting like I know what it's doing. It adjusts to do what it needs to do.

But the workout is only like the first one that I've been doing, and I think there are different lengths, but it's only eight minutes or nine minutes total. And you only have to do it. I did a whole call with them and I'm going to bring them on the show. You only have to do it three days a week to get all of the benefits they've seen in their trials, which is improve blood work cholesterol. They have so much data and I haven't even told you the coolest part yet, so [chuckles] they have a lot of different options. But you start with this one called Tiger. So rather than playing, like, music and stuff, it acts like you're a hunter-gatherer. And so, you're like on the bike and it talks to you and it's like, "You're a hunter-gatherer. You're walking through the woods." You get in the story of it and it's like you walk and then it helps you breathe. It's like, "Let's just breathe slowly in and out." And so, you're like doing it, you're just like, pedaling. And then it's like, "Oh, what is that? Is that a tiger?" And [laughs] it's like, "Oh, no, it's coming. What are we going to do?" And so, then you're like, "Oh, gosh, there's a tiger." And it'll be like, "It's coming, run." And then it flashes red in you, and then it screams at you, like, "Run faster. There's no time to think." And so, you're like, "I just got to run." And you get so invested in the story of it. And then you're like and then it's like, "Okay, you're fine." And then you walk again and you breathe and then you do that again. I love it. It's amazing. It goes by so fast and it doesn't feel like you're working out because the way it talks to you and the way it coaches you, it's so cool.

Vanessa Spina: That's incredible. And I was skeptical, too, when you were telling me about it because I was really interested to know what you thought. But the fact that it's so efficient time wise is, like, definitely sounds like it's got some really interesting aspects to it if you can save time and get so much benefit out of it. So, you're going to be super jacked [laughs] and extra toned.

Melanie Avalon: What I love at the end of the tiger track, so I've only done the tiger track because there are music tracks, but at the end, its little quote is it says something like, "Good job, you've done your workout for the day. Go to the gym if you want to, not because you have to." [chuckles] Oh, yeah. I'm really excited. I'm tracking my blood work, so I did blood work right before starting. They said that it takes, I think, 30 days to see the benefits. It's so cool, and I can't wait to interview the founder, but apparently there's just massive benefits to all out exertion, max capacity, a few quick brief times, and then the way your body compensates recovers, so, we shall see. I'm a fan thus far. So, you can actually get $100 off. $100 off with the code MELANIEAVALON so for that, just go to carolbike.com. And what's interesting is I asked two different people about it in our sphere, and they both told me how obsessed they are. One of them was Brad Kearns. Do you know Brad?

Vanessa Spina: Is he a scientist researcher.

Melanie Avalon: He writes all the books with Mark Sisson.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's where I heard his name. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love him. He's fantastic. And he is an ultra-endurance marathon runner, a triathlete champion and he's all into the athletics and everything. And I told him about it and he's like, "Yeah, it's like the most efficient way to get your exercise super quick."

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I want one now. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: I know I'm obsessed so I will keep listeners updated and then I really want to see the effect that it has. I was telling Vanessa my HbA1c has always been low/normal. Always for years, it's always been the same number. And it went up a lot. I mean, not into the prediabetic range, but it went up a lot. This last test that I had, which freaked me out a little bit, and I actually-- did you know that there are at home HbA1c? They're like glucometers, but they're for HbA1c.

Vanessa Spina: I didn't know that. I didn't know that was even possible.

Melanie Avalon: I didn't either. So, I remember I had a wonky test once on mine, and I thought it was off from my blood work and it was. And James Clement, who I also love, he wrote a book called The Switch, and he sent me in the mail a HbA1c blood fingerpicks. So, you can do it yourself when you're at home, which is amazing. I verified it recently for my blood test, and it was that number, which is high, which I'm very upset about. So, I'm excited to see, A, if this CAROL affects it and B, I think I know what I did that caused this. And I'm trying to decide if I should tell the audience now or wait and see.

Vanessa Spina: No, I want to know. [laughs] I've been waiting to know what this thing is.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, if you can guess it, I will tell. [chuckles] You get three guesses. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Okay. Wait, is it a food?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh. We're playing the guessing game. This is my favorite game of the whole world. [laughs] I love this game. involves food, yes.

Vanessa Spina: Involves food. Is it a sweetener?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Vanessa Spina: Involves food, involves food. [laughs] I don't know if it's a food or not.

Melanie Avalon: It is a food, It is a food, it involves food. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: It's obviously something you don't normally eat.

Melanie Avalon: No, I do normally eat it.

Vanessa Spina: You do?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-Hmm. And this might not be what it is, but it's something I've been doing. And intuitively, I'm like, "I feel like this might be having a bad effect." I really don't know. I really wish I'd been wearing a CGM during all of this.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that would have been super helpful.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's something that I thought of you. It's something you mention.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, protein powder.

Melanie Avalon: No.

Vanessa Spina: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's in your favor because [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: No, because I remember when we're talking about Tone protein recently, you said that you're not using them right now, but, like, you have in the past. So that's why I thought maybe.

Melanie Avalon: It's something that you have talked about on this podcast in your past. And I literally think about you when I engage with this behavior food.

Vanessa Spina: Tequila.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] No.

Vanessa Spina: Engage with this-- wait, behavior. It's not--

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah. Because that's why I'm saying it involves food.

Vanessa Spina: Man, I'm stumped. I just want to know. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm trying to decide if I should tell you. I've been doing something to my existing food.

Vanessa Spina: Geez.

Melanie Avalon: It's the exact same food.

Vanessa Spina: Cooking your fruit.

Melanie Avalon: Sort of. Yes. So okay. Did I start doing this? Not because I didn't start doing this because of you, [laughs] but I remember you talked about how you used to-- did you cook your fruit for dessert?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I would make, like, a big batch of sliced up apple and banana, and I would either fry it or bake it. And it goes back to my childhood because in China, growing up, there was these desserts that were like, cooked apple and cooked banana that we would have all the time in China. It's actually called Basi Pingguo, [laughs] which is like this hot apple and they also sell it on the streets. So, it was a comfort food for me. And I thought, "Well, fruit is so amazing, so healthy for you." So, I was having a lot of it at night after having all my other food and I was having a lot of it, just wasn't optimal for me. [laughs] But maybe if I was doing low fat and just like, protein and fruit, it would have been better.

Melanie Avalon: Because I historically, I've been eating pounds and pounds of fruit, blueberries every night for years, like, years. And I've always had the same HbA1c and it was a while ago now. Why did I do this? Why did I get the urge to heat up my blueberries? But I did [chuckles] in the microwave, which that's, like, debated, but in any case, I did and I was like, "Oh, wow. I was like, this tastes like a whole another level."

Vanessa Spina: It's like blueberry pie or something.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's what it tasted like. It tastes like pie. I was like, "This tastes like pie." And what's interesting is, shortly thereafter that night, A, it tasted way sweeter and B, I sort of felt like I was getting an adrenaline response to it. And it kind of like when I would have honey in the past. I didn't completely start heating my fruit, but every night I started adding in as, like, my final treat, like, heated up fruit. And I wonder and I realize I could be wrong with this, but it definitely, I think, breaks down the-- it increases, I think, the accessibility to the sugar in that fruit for sure, for sure.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That actually explains why it tastes sweeter. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That's really the only thing I've changed and so I'm stopping that, and I'm going to retest, and I'm going to see if the HbA1c is back down.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And then you have to do it again with the CGM.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. We are on the same page, Vanessa. We're on the same page because I was like, "Wait. Because I want to stop doing it now, but I also want to get a CGM and keep doing it and see what's happening."

Vanessa Spina: Because it could be completely nothing. It could be something else.

Melanie Avalon: So much to do. But all of that to say.

Vanessa Spina: That's most likely it, though.

Melanie Avalon: I really think it is. I really don't know. I don't know what else it would be, honestly. So, we shall see. Stay tuned. I will be using a Nutrisense CGM, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST will get you $30 off. Yeah, that's my whole tangent. So, CAROL bikes and CGMs and heated fruit. [chuckles] What's new in your world?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I'm really excited because we're going to Denver soon, to Colorado. I've been working really hard on transferring and setting up a new fulfillment center, a new warehouse for my Tone device, the red light panels. And I've just been growing, so I've needed to add new warehouses. I just set one up in Australia, working on Europe next, and I just set up this new center in Colorado. But a lot of that involves switching everything over from the one that is or was in California and then shipping everything over there. And logistically, it's just a lot so it's been quite stressful for me for the last few months to be working on that just like transition. And then when you set up the new ones, there's a lot of integrations. And I love doing this stuff because I'm a computer nerd. I love all this side of things. But it's just a huge relief that we're actually set up and up and running at the Colorado warehouse. And that's just been the most exciting thing for me.

Of red light panels that I have, the Tone LUX Gem, which is the small portable version, is now shipping out from the Colorado warehouse. So, it was a preorder all of this time from December until last week and we started shipping out the first orders. The preorders all went out. So that's been very gratifying and also just feels like so much of my bandwidth for focusing on things has been freed up that I can start focusing on other products. There's other red light sort of variations of products that I've been wanting to work on. I've been also working on developing some blue blocking glasses, like blue light blocking glasses. I've been working on a bunch of other things and I love product development, but finally having everything moved over just feels amazing. [chuckles] It just feels like a huge relief. That's been like a really big development for me.

And yeah, there's just so much that goes into running your, like having your different fulfillment centers. And the great thing about having these new locations is that, like, for people in Europe, Europe is coming next. I've been working on that for the past few months as well. But in Australia, I've been shipping out my Tone devices from California to Australia. But now we can ship out directly from Australia to Australia, New Zealand. And it just is so much more cost effective and fast for residents of Australia, New Zealand than shipping from California. It just takes so much more time. It's so much more expensive and especially with the red light panels because they're heavier. Like, the Tone device is really small and light. So, this is the stuff that [laughs] takes up a lot of my bandwidth and my time and my focus, but I love all of this stuff. And I've told you a few times that I've been working on the second generation of the Tone device that has a few different features and there's just a lot of testing back and forth that goes on and just trying to perfect the sensor as much as possible. It's kind of my mission right now to make it as sensitive as possible to smaller ketones for people who are not necessarily going into deep, deep, deep ketosis, but just maybe doing intermittent fasting during the day or maybe doing a couple longer fasts here and there during the week. So, I'm really excited for when it comes out because it also has a little bit of a fresh look to it, which I'm really excited about. So, this is the stuff that gets me going and that I love working on.

Melanie Avalon: That's so amazing. I feel like when I have you, I don't know what all we'll talk about, but when I have you on my show, I have so many questions for you about all of this. I'm so impressed with your development. I can't imagine moving alone is stressful. Like moving your own stuff from point A to point B. You're like moving stuff that then has to go out to people that's like a whole another level of craziness.

Vanessa Spina: It's been way more stressful than I think. I realized it would be and just feel so good now that it's done and just like seeing the orders going out to people and people who've been so amazing and supportive in preordering my products and then waiting for them to come out, I just appreciate it so much. So, it makes me so excited and happy when they finally can get them in their hands and they're like sending me pictures and telling me how much they love them and that's the gratifying part of it all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Congratulations. So, you literally just wrapped that up like that move.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, last week they just started shipping out and then yeah, we're still transferring some inventory over, but I'm going to be able to shut off everything that was going out of the California one, so yeah, it feels so good. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: Congratulations.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And wait, so to clarify, that's not why you're going to Denver though.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, sorry, I don't know why I went on that tangent. We're getting excited to go to Denver. Part of my excitement is that I get to go in person to the new fulfillment facility, which is why I even brought that up. So, I'm really excited to go see, visit with all my inventory there and meet the team and everything in person. So that's going to be really fun. But we're mostly going to visit family. It's been a while since we've been back. The last time we're in Denver, I was 13 weeks pregnant with Luca. It was Christmas time, so that was Christmas 2020 and then early part of 2021. It's been a long time and we've gotten to see all of our family. They've been coming over here to visit us but this is our first time back. So super excited to be back in the US for a few weeks and just be with everyone and visit with all our family there and have some celebrations. We're going to be there for the fourth and we have a bunch of birthdays, so it's going to be really fun.

Melanie Avalon: So exciting. We're going to be so close.

Vanessa Spina: I know we're going to be podcasting and texting each other on the same day, like same time zones and stuff. Melanie and I text every single day, so we're [laughs] always like, going to sleep when the other one's waking up. So, it'll be fun to be closer, same similar time zones.

Melanie Avalon: So exciting.

Vanessa Spina: I know you have exciting travel coming up too.

Melanie Avalon: Well, when this airs? So, this airs on the 26th of June. Oh, so when this airs, you'll be in Denver and I will have just come back from the Biohacking Conference.

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. [chuckles] Okay. Listeners will have to stay tuned to know how that went down.

Vanessa Spina: I just can't wait to hear how you enjoy it all. I will be like waiting for your text to hear how you're enjoying it because I know it's your first time really going to a big event like this or like a conference in our space. I just think you're going to have the best time.

Melanie Avalon: I know it's going to be such an experience. And then we're recording this way in advance. So yesterday was Memorial Day, so I definitely got on all the websites and ordered all the dresses to try to find what to wear for the conference. I'm going to return most of them, which I know it's not sustainable. Yikes. [laughs] But I'm so bad with online sales. Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, there was a lot of sales. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So basically, I was ordering all the-- because I'll need four black dresses for the conference. One during the day, then one for the dance, and then one for the next day and one for the dance.

Vanessa Spina: Oh my gosh. Yeah, I saw there were some fun-looking events at night and everything. So yeah, and you're being a night owl is going to be perfect for you.

Melanie Avalon: There's a 70s/80s dance party, which is not my decade. Like, the 70s and 80s are not attractive, dark clothing.

Vanessa Spina: I can't really get into 70s music as much. I love the style from the 60s.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 60s is cute.

Vanessa Spina: 70s, I don’t, yeah, not as much.

Melanie Avalon: I found a dress that I think is I don't know. I polled my audience, I was like, "Can this pass 70s or 80s?" 70s, which one's disco 70s, 80s.

Vanessa Spina: I literally couldn't even tell you what, 70s is like. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: 70s, in any case, it was 50-50, so I'm going with it. It's a really cool dress.

Vanessa Spina: And 80s is, like, so chaotic and crazy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Vanessa Spina: I love the music from the 90s that's my husband and I will like. It's so good.

Melanie Avalon: Who was your favorite pop 90s?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, Britney for sure. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: We had the best; we had the best 90s music. I was in college during, this will kind of give away my age, but I was in college during Kesha in her prime, which is the perfect artist to accompany college. I'm just so grateful. I'm literally grateful for that gratitude moment that Kesha was in her prime while I was in college.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: So yeah. Was anybody in their prime when you were in college? Like, artist?

Vanessa Spina: I had a poster of Britney in my dorm room and also this rapper, but I cannot remember her name right now for some reason. Was it Aaliyah? Aaliyah, maybe. Yeah, I can't remember. But there was a lot of really good music around that time. I don't listen to music as much as I used to back then. Something that I try to make a concerted effort to do because I spend so much time listening to podcasts. And then you realize sometimes like, "Well, I haven't listened to music in a while, [laughs] so I try to make it-- try to be more intentional about that."

Melanie Avalon: I have one last question. I know we're on all the tangent rabbit holes with the podcast. Do you have certain podcasts that you have to listen to at certain times of the day?

Vanessa Spina: At certain times of the day.

Melanie Avalon: I'll clarify. [chuckles] So I have certain ones that I listen to them during their day podcast, so they make me feel awake. And there's some that I listen to as they're my wind down podcasts, and so I listen to them at night while I'm having my dinner, and it kind of gets me in my wind-down time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I get that. I definitely get that. And for me, my brain shuts off at night. I just have to-- my days are so intensely cerebral, like reading, studies and reading really amazing books of so many of the people that we get to interact with and interview. And then it's like at night, I just crash and I have to turn my brain off completely. And I can't listen to anything educational. It can only be entertainment, like fluff. And I'll put stuff on in the background while I'm working-- I still do work at night, but I just want to listen to something that I don't have to focus on or think. And then in the morning, I like more affirmations. There's one podcast I love that has really good affirmations, and that is, like, the best early in the day. If you want to set the tone for the day, just like, positive affirmations, positivity? Yeah, I guess. Does that kind of work?

Melanie Avalon: Completely. What is that podcast?

Vanessa Spina: I think it's by this guy named Bob Baker, and I listen to it pretty much every day. It's called the Affirmation Meditation Podcast by Bob Baker. They're really short. They're like 10 minutes, but it's just so much positivity, appreciation, thankfulness. Like, the one from today was just, "I'm grateful for my life." 21 affirmations of gratitude and then he has other ones, even, that are about self-confidence or just like they're all just so positive, and he has, like, a really good vibe. So yeah, I love starting the day with that one. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Does he have, like, a "I'm grateful for Kesha during my college years?" Affirmation. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: You can add that one. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, that's amazing. Yeah. Actually, I realized I actually listen to audiobooks during the day and then at night is when I listen to my podcasts, which are really just Robb Wolf's Healthy Rebellion Radio, Peter Attia's The Drive, Noelle Tarr's Well-Fed Women and Rich Roll. Oh, and Rogan and Huberman. Okay, a few different things.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I have a lot of the same ones. I think we have a question that's actually about this.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, this is perfect timing. I was just going to say with audiobooks, since I'm prepping for the show, I have to be, like, taking notes, and it's more cerebral and it requires a lot of brain power. But with podcasts, I don't normally take notes unless it's prepping for, like this next one would be an exception. I just feel like more I'm like, hanging out with my friends or people I want to be friends with, like Peter Attia someday. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: I don't know about Peter these days. Some of his opinions are getting to me. Yeah, he's got some controversial opinions. And by controversial, I mean opinions I don't agree with lately. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Well, speaking of that goes nicely into our first question. Would you like to read it from Nikki?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, Nikki Bowen, subject cold therapy. Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. I'm super excited for you both to answer this question because I know it's something you're both interested in. On a recent Peter Attia episode of his podcast, he said that, "He doesn't think cold exposure really moves the needle as far as potential fat loss from increasing brown adipose tissue. " Crying face emoji, [laughs] what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: It's the streaming tear, crying face emoji.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I love it. "I have access to cryotherapy through my local Restore Hyper Wellness, so it's easy to do. I know it has so many other benefits such as workout recovery, sleep, and mood enhancement, but if I'm being honest, the fat loss is what truly motivates me to actually do the cold exposure thing. If you do think it's beneficial for fat loss, can you lay out a good protocol that takes into account, strength training sessions, fasting and red light, I eat how many times a week before or after a workout, before or after breaking a fast and before or after red light." Thank you for all you do Nikki.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Nikki. Thank you so much for your question. Okay, I know she's asking just about the brown adipose tissue. I however have a lot of notes about all of this so I was going to give a deeper dive if that's okay into the cold therapy.

Vanessa Spina: Of course. Yeah, love it. Because I'll talk about cold plunging.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. So, I did listen to that Peter Attia episode. He had a whole episode on his more updated thoughts on cold therapy and cold exposure and then appropriately enough I will relate his thoughts, which Nikki sort of touched on. Appropriately enough that same week, Andrew Huberman had an episode on cold exposure, an interview with--

Vanessa Spina: That one I actually listened to.

Melanie Avalon: Oh perfect. Dr. Soberg. Dr. Susanna Soberg. And it was kind of a nice anecdote to Peter's episode because it was all about this and very pro the benefits for metabolic health and especially brown adipose tissue. I'll go through first the notes I have from Peter's episode. So, his podcast is called The Drive. We'll put a link to it in the show notes but he went through everything and so he talks about how they're basically in the clinical literature, two different types of cold exposure therapy that are studied mostly. They don't really study cold showers as much, so it's usually cold-water immersion. So, like ice baths and things like that. And for those it's normally around 40 degrees Fahrenheit up until 60 degrees. Oh, until when you're colder than that, like 30s or on the lower side, like the 40s people will do it for about two to three minutes. And then sometimes there are protocols where it's warmer, like 50 to 60 degrees Fahrenheit and that'll be longer protocols, like around 30 minutes. And then on the other hand we have whole body cryotherapy so that's what I do every single day. And that's where you go from around 160 to around 260 degrees minus so negative Fahrenheit.

And some takeaways for example, so there was a 2022 meta-analysis of 52 studies of adults who were exercising and that was cold water immersion. And they found that cold water immersion did have a significant beneficial effect on muscle power 24 hours after exercise and that it had actually a large effect in reducing delayed-onset muscle soreness, 24 hours after high intensity and a moderate effect on reducing that after eccentric exercise, but not until at least 48 hours.

He talks about how this is one of the main benefits that people see with cold water therapy is this reduction in delayed onset muscle soreness. And then there were a few studies that compared cryotherapy to cold water immersion also for delayed onset muscle soreness and exercise recovery and they were mixed. So, some would find benefits, some would find no differences, some would find benefits of some, but not the other. So, it's kind of confusing. [chuckles] But he thinks that the majority of the research is supporting cold water immersion being superior for that. And then, okay, this was interesting, Vanessa, I had a moment with this. I had a big moment with this.

So, he has a section on mood and depression and the effects of cold on that. And the question they asked him in the episode was, "Is there any new research on how cold water or cold therapy can affect mood?" And I was surprised listening to it, because he only talked about one study, which he said was a 2020 study in 10 subjects, looking at how they responded to cold water immersion. And it found that they actually had an increase of over 500% in norepinephrine and over 250% in dopamine, but actually no effect on epinephrine. But that basically the effects were a beneficial increase in mood.

What was weird to me is I was like, "I thought there had been a lot of studies on cold and mood." And so, I went and did my own research, and I found a lot of studies. But not only did I find a lot of studies, the study he referenced wasn't 2020. It was a 2000 study, which isn't a big deal, people make mistakes. But even it made me realize just how much I need to be conscious of going and fact checking and even people I completely adore, like Peter Attia, I think it's always the responsibility is on us to double check source materials for things. I literally checked it like five times because I thought I was wrong. But in his show notes, yeah, it says 2020 new study, but it's actually a 2000 study, which is an old study that's like 23 years ago. The studies I found on mood, for example, I found this one is older as well, but a 2013 study, Mental state and quality of life after 10 sessions of whole-body cryotherapy that found a beneficial effect. It was 55 subjects and it found a beneficial effect in their-- they took a questionnaire for their mood and their quality of life, and it found that whole body cryotherapy-- this is cryotherapy had a significant influence on improving their well-being and their mood, leading to an improvement in their quality of life. And that the worse they felt before doing the cryotherapy, the better they felt afterwards.

Then I found a 2021 study, the Improvement of cognitive deficits after whole-body cryotherapy, that actually found an increase in cognitive performance with cryotherapy, which was interesting. And then a 2019 study, Whole-Body Cryotherapy, as a promising add on treatment for depressive disorder. That was in 30 adults, 21 who actually completed the study. And they did 10 two-minute cryotherapy sessions within two weeks, and they saw significant improvement in their depressive symptom scores. So that's really cool. And that's just a few. There were quite a few others, but I didn't want to put like a million. So, I just thought it was interesting that when asked that question, which was, what is the newest research on mood that not only did he say throughout the episode that there isn't that much cryotherapy studies, I actually found a lot of cryotherapy studies on mood specifically. And that's the benefit I personally experience the most from cryotherapy. Like, I go into that chamber, it's negative 270 degrees, I think the one I do for three minutes, and I just feel so good after. Like, the effect is just amazing for me.

And so, in that episode, Peter was hypothesizing why that might be and it seems to be possibly two things. So, the increase in those neurotransmitters as well as potentially a reduction inflammation, although, interestingly a lot of studies don't find any measurable effects on inflammatory markers. So that's interesting, especially because just subjectively when I do it just feels so anti-inflammatory. So, I'm not really sure what's going on there. But he did talk about another okay, my bad.

He did talk about another study in his podcast, which was a 2020 study, Efficacy of Whole-Body Cryotherapy as an add-on for treatment of depression. And that also found a statistically significant difference in clinical depression for the patients who are doing whole body cryotherapy. And what Peter talked about, what's super cool about this study is they sort of had a control placebo group because it's hard to have-- you can't really have like an actual placebo because you can't put people in shocking cold and tell them it's not cold. That's just not possible. But what they did do was they had people in like an actual cryotherapy. So negative 166 to negative 256 degrees Fahrenheit, five days each week for two weeks. And then they had another group that also went into a chamber, which is super cool, but it was not cryogenic. It was just negative 58 degrees Fahrenheit. And so, they did find more of a benefit for the cryotherapy. And so, like Peter said, "That's actually very telling because it was more placebo controlled." And so, again, I want to emphasize that he did list two studies related to mood, and then people did ask him about showers. Like, do you need your head to be under the water? And he was saying that the upper torso is actually probably the most or is the most thermally sensitive region. And so, you don't actually have to have your head under the water when you're doing cold showers.

Okay, to Nikki's question, the brown adipose tissue, so he says that there really isn't a lot of evidence. So, yes, cold exposure increases brown adipose tissue and brown adipose tissue is a type. So, we have three well, -- we have different types of fat in the body. We have white fat, which is the type of fat that we think of, which is its primary purpose is to store excess calories for the lean times. And it's the type that's linked to negative health effects, especially when it's visceral fat around our organs. There's beige fat, which is in between white and brown and has more mitochondria. And then there's brown adipose tissue, which is very rich in mitochondria, which is the energy producing part of a cell. And so brown adipose tissue, yes, it's fat, but it's actually very thermogenic and it creates-- it burns energy. So, it's linked to health. We have higher levels of it when we're young, we have lower levels when we're older. If you have more brown adipose tissue, it's better for your weight loss, things like Nikki is asking about. And one of the main ways to increase it is cold exposure. So, I actually thought it was really interesting that in his analysis, he thinks that the data on brown adipose tissue is pretty limited. So basically, we do see it increase from cold, but he doesn't think it will create any measurable effect long term. I don't agree with that.

And then I didn't really agree listening and then I listened to the episode on Huberman with Dr. Soberg and she has a book. I really want to get her on the show. She has done a lot of research on cold water immersion and how it affects metabolic health and brown adipose tissue. And her findings are, I mean, really interesting, especially like its effect on insulin production. Yeah, so metabolic health. And so, to answer the question, well, first of all, this is completely anecdotal, N of 1, not scientific. My weight tends to be the same, mostly the same year-round. I do tend to lose a little bit of weight in the winter and I'm eating the same. That's just me. But I think there is a benefit to the cold. And it's interesting because we'll talk about things like unconscious things that can really have a measurable effect on weight. So, things like meat, non-exercise activity thermogenesis so that's like the unconscious. It's the movement that you're doing throughout the day that is not conscious exercise. So, fidgeting and just like moving around more and doing your groceries and that can add up to measurable differences in people's calorie burning potential and their weight. I think activating brown adipose tissue a lot. I just think it's something that you could do more subtly that-- I think would be like a small thing that could have a long-term effect if you're doing it consistently. This is just my personal opinion. I have a lot of other thoughts and I know she wants to know about specific protocols, but I'm going to stop talking for a second. Vanessa, do you have thoughts about the brown adipose tissue and the cold?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, I think it's actually huge and hugely effective. But the key is the word that you just said is consistency. And so, a little anecdote that I can share is, so one of my listeners of the podcast, he heard me talking about cold exposure, I think on an episode, we're talking about brown adipose, and he has a Tone device which can measure your rate of fat burning. And he did a cold plunge and the next day, his level of ketosis or his ketones that he was reading on the Tone device were double. So, I was like, "That's huge." I actually remember texting you at the time that this happened and being like, "I need to tell you about the Tone and cold." So, I did the experiment myself, like, a week later, and I had the same thing happen. I did the cold plunge in the evening and the next morning, I took a reading right before I did it, and then I took it in the morning, and mine was also doubled. Now, it wasn't always doubled, but that first time I did it, it did double. And I think it's really the catecholamines, the norepinephrine, epinephrine that's released when you get into the cold that produces this shock in the body, but you're also literally activating brown fat. That brown adipose that, like you said, "We're born with so much of it, and then we're older. We don't have that much left." But unless you work outside or you're in the cold, or you do practice cold exposure on a regular basis, we mostly have a little bit left around the clavicle region.

But Dr. Soberg's research is absolutely fascinating because she actually studied, like, what is that sort of minimum amount that you would need in a week to get that minimum effective dose where you can really get benefits. And that's why I mentioned consistency. So, she found that for cold immersion into cold water, which is what I do and what my listener did and what I did in that experiment is getting into a cold bath up to the neck and really being immersed in cold water that is somewhere between 10 to 16-degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but I have posted about it before. And yeah, quick Google search could [chuckles] probably find what that temperature range is. But Dr. Soberg found that, that minimum effective dose with the cold immersion was 11 minutes total per week. That's it. So that means only going in for one to two minutes. I've done baths where I was in there for, like, 20 minutes. [laughs] And what's so cool about the baths is that when you get in the cold water, it's definitely really intense at first. But if you submerge to the neck, like, basically to your chin, you actually activate the brown fat through this process called the turnover, I think, turnover effect, where you activate the brown fat because it is located up around the neck, the clavicle region, and usually within a minute I'm warm. So, once you're in, it's very easy to stay in, the hard part is actually getting out again, because that's when you sort of experience the cold again. But I'm a huge fan of these for so many reasons, like in terms of overall wellness, in terms of supporting mitochondrial health, but in terms of fat burning, I really think there's a lot of actual, legitimate fat burning increase that happens from doing this on a consistent basis.

And what's amazing is that in some of Dr. Soberg's research, I think she actually mentioned this study in the interview, that there were these patients that had a benign tumor that was causing them to have excessive epinephrine release, and it caused them to grow or basically generate brown fat all over their bodies. So, we can grow it all over the body, not just around the sort of neck area. And we can do it through regular, consistent cold exposure. And over time, you can become cold adapted. I think it's an amazing tool because you're turning fat tissue, which normally is a storage form of energy, into a metabolically active tissue that is now burning energy for you. So, the more you do the cold plunging on a consistent basis, I think you can really ramp up fat burning. I know Tim Ferriss recommended it in his book as a great way to do weight loss, I think two to three times a week. So, 11 minutes total in a week, if you spread that out between two to three cold plunges, like it's only a few minutes at a time, it's really not that much. But I do personally think it can have tremendous benefits on ramping up the fat burning. As long as you're not overcompensating in some other way. It's going to help you burn more calories, not only when you're shivering afterwards and warming back up, but it's also going to make your tissue and your body more metabolically active because you're building more mitochondria in that brown adipose. You're making white adipose more beige, you're converting it to more brown, just like when you work out and build more muscle, you're generating more mitochondria in that tissue.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I felt like that was me talking. Like, I cannot agree more with everything that you said. I looked it up, so it's 50 to 60 degrees is what that correlates to.

Vanessa Spina: Okay, thank you. Yeah, thank you for that. And they said that the research unequivocally shows that cold immersion lowers blood glucose, lowers insulin, which probably helps with leptin, too, lowers blood pressure, which is a huge factor for overall health and cardiometabolic health, and improves brown fat distribution and density.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting because he said-- I think the quote he said and that what Nikki said, is that, "He doesn't think it really moves the needle or nudges the needle." I feel like this is the exact sort of thing that's like nudging the needle. It's like the example of the little thing under the radar that's making long changes. If you're doing it consistently.

Vanessa Spina: I think it's huge. And in terms of the protocol, I just wanted to mention a couple of things. So, you're talking about laying out some kind of protocol. One thing, that I do know about cold exposure -- cold plunging, you should never do it after a resistance training workout because it halts that muscle, sort of the inflammation that happens after doing resistance training that will cause muscle to grow. So, if you are talking about a framework in terms of how to incorporate these different things, I would do it in the morning or any time in the day before you do a workout. And I know that information isn't great because I'm one of those people who loved going in the cold plunge after a workout because you get all hot and sweaty and then you get in the cold plunge. But if you have access to a sauna, that's a great way to warm up and heat up before you get in the cold plunge, which makes it less uncomfortable to do. And in terms of red light, I would either do the red light before a workout to precondition certain areas on the body, if you wanted to do that for like stubborn fat loss or you could do the red light, which I've done many times after a cold plunge, because you get that infrared heat. You're generating all this heat to warm back up, and you have that nice warm, cozy sort of warming light, especially if your panels have infrared, it'll help warm you back up.

Melanie Avalon: To comment on that with the muscle afterwards. It was interesting because Peter did talk about a lot of studies showing a hindrance of sort in growing muscle with the cold like Vanessa was pointing at. He did find one interesting study where they had two groups, some used cold immersion and then some didn't, and all groups did still gain muscle mass and strength, but the cold group gained less than the other group. And the reason I'm bringing in that subtle nuance is I think it depends on your goals. So maybe, if you're doing resistance training and you just feel good having that cold exposure afterwards because of the reduction in delayed onset muscle soreness or how it makes you feel, I think it's possible you could still get some benefits from the resistance training, but it wouldn't be as much as if you had not done the cold. So, I think you have to ask yourself, like, "What do you really want from all this? What is your goal with your muscles? What is your goal with muscle soreness?" If it's just like cardio exercise or something like that, then it's probably fine to do the cold afterwards. So really you just have to see what works for you and what you're hoping to achieve.

And then two other little things I wanted to point out was, I'm glad you talked about the getting out experience and getting colder. And Huberman talked about that a lot as well. And basically, he said, what's going on there is like Vanessa was saying, so when you get in the cold, all these things are activated to keep you warm, and then all of the blood is going away from your extremities to your core to keep you warm. And then when you get out, all of that blood is now going back to your extremities, and so you actually get a drop in your core temperature after you get out, which is ironic. So that's why you might start shivering after you get out. And then to clarify about the shivering, so when you're doing shivering, that is not what is activating brown adipose tissue or that is not from brown adipose tissue. It kind of activates it in that it sets the pathway for brown adipose tissue to take over but shivering is the mechanical way that your body creates heat and warms you up. Brown adipose tissue is when that fat tissue gets activated and then the mitochondria within the brown adipose tissue is actually generating heat. I actually heard it wasn't on that podcast, but Huberman talked about on some other podcast. He was talking about hacking or tweaking your cold exposure and doing it so that you always, I don't want to say it wrong. It was something about like it's nice if you can get it to where you shiver just a little bit every single time, and then that will give you the maximum benefits probably. I don't remember the specifics about it.

Vanessa Spina: I wonder if in the Attia the study that you mentioned if it was because those people who are doing the resistance training were doing the cold after working out. Because if you do it before or 4 hours after your workout, it shouldn't impact the muscle growth.

Melanie Avalon: So, I have it right here. 24 people on a 12-week lower body strength training program. Half of them did cold water immersion in a bath of 50 degrees for 10 minutes after each training session and the controls didn't do anything. The cold people, they had to wait. They weren't even allowed to rewarm themselves after the cold. They had to wait 2 hours. Both groups did increase muscle mass and strength but the cold-water group didn't get as much. So, like the actual stats were that leg press strength increased by 200 kg in the control group, but in the cold-water group only 133 kg.

Vanessa Spina: See if they did that and they did the cold plunge before the workout or 4 hours after, it may not have negatively affected them. Right?

Melanie Avalon: Right. Yes, my point about it was that I think some people-- like for me, I just like doing it after things like that. But my goal isn't massive muscle gain, but if it were, I would want to do like you said before or way after.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That totally makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: So awesome. I don't know why he draws that conclusion, honestly.

Vanessa Spina: I'm frustrated with Peter because of his whole podcast recently saying that intermittent fasting causes lean body mass loss and stuff. I don't understand where he's coming from. He was someone who was championing intermittent fasting, and now he seems to have jumped on the-- well, he's been a big influence, too, in sort of interpreting some of these studies, saying intermittent fasting is just as effective as calorie restriction as being a negative when that's the whole beauty of them is that they're just as effective as caloric restriction without having to do the caloric restriction. So, I don't know why he soured on it so much. I think he still does some extended fasting I've heard him talk about. But yeah, I don't know what's going on with some of his opinions right now. And I was disappointed that he was negative on the moving the needle thing because Huberman's interview with Dr. Soberg, to me, just really, she brought up so much of the research showing this side. I don't know, I think maybe it doesn't move the needle if you just do it once a month or something. Right, like, if it's not a consistent practice,

Melanie Avalon: I agree. And actually, that's a good thing to clarify. So, the 11s minutes per week total, so that's not like one 11-minute session, maybe it could be, but it sounds like it's more multiple, like two to four sessions, one to five minutes each so that consistency. It's kind of like it goes back, brings everything full circle. It's like that CAROL bike. You're getting massive benefits from eight minutes three times a week and they have studies on it. So, I'll be excited-- Robb Wolf as well is not hardcore fasting fan anymore either and he's going to come on our show. I'm so excited. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yes. He thinks it's bad for telomeres or something.

Melanie Avalon: I know, for stem cells, he thinks.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, maybe it was the stem cells. He said, what is it the Hayflick.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well. The Hayflick limit is telomeres.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I heard him talk about the Hayflick limit and how he thinks fasting has a negative effect on the telomeres. But I think a lot of information about telomeres is like being debunked. Like, there're theories that it's actually deuterium that makes the telomeres look shorter. Anyway, I'm going on other tangents.

Melanie Avalon: This is why we're friends. [laughs] As I drink my deuterium depleted water. I love it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I can't wait to have him back on as well.

Melanie Avalon: It's going to be fun. I think we're supposed to circle back with him in the late summer or early fall. So that'll be fun.

Vanessa Spina: I'm planning on having him and Luis on my podcast as a joint interview.

Melanie Avalon: Have you interviewed Luis?

Vanessa Spina: I've had him on pretty consistently, about once a year, usually or every other. And I've never interviewed them both at the same time.

Melanie Avalon: That'll be so fun.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I thought it would be a fun one to do. Yeah, Luis has an amazing story. He went from being anorexic to being this amazing bodybuilder. He was an overweight child, and then he just restricted, and then he didn't eat very much for a long time. He became like skinny fat, and then he really got into fitness, and he's just so fit and really sets a great example, I think. And he's always been someone that I admire for sort of calling out the fact that you don't have to have high ketones to be lean and get good results or burn fat. So, I've always really respected him a lot for that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I love him. And for listeners, he created the Ketogains community, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Yeah, huge community.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And he also is one of the creators of LMNT with Robb as well. Actually, friends, if you listen today's sponsor, LMNT, one of the sponsors that's the electrolytes created by Robb and Luis and people love those electrolytes, so listen to that.

Vanessa Spina: They're so good.

Melanie Avalon: I know, Luis, they specifically formulated it based on the Ketogains community, the ratios that really actually help people with their electrolyte status and their hydration needs and they posit that a lot of reasons people get keto flu is from electrolyte imbalance. So, they're great for the keto diet, for fasting, the unflavored version is clean fast friendly, so listen to the ad. But you can actually get a free gift with purchase if you go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast you'll get a sample pack with your order. So that is awesome. Okay, well, all the things.

So for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode323, and then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things and I'm hoping-- I think next episode might be a special episode with a guest. He hasn't confirmed, unless he confirmed during this call hopefully, we'll see. [chuckles] We'll find out. So, yes, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I love the deep dive that we got to do on cold plunging. It was so much fun. So, yeah. Thanks again, Nikki, for your question and can't wait for the next one.

Melanie Avalon: I know, me too. I love that you love all of this stuff so much. Just casually throw in their deuterium. [laughs] Good times. Good times. All right, well, have a wonderful evening and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Vanessa Spina: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jun 18

Episode 322: Genetic Testing, Blood Testing, Food Allergies, Medical Care, Leptin Resistance, Insulin Resistance, Nutrient Deficiency, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Mitochondrial Health Series: Fructose & Dr. Rick Johnson Recap (Part 1) Optimal Protein Podcast (Fast Keto) with Vanessa Spina

Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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go to toneprotein.com to stay up to date on vanessa's new protein supplement!

Listener Q&A: dina - Blood Test

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

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Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Niki - Leptin Resistance

How to Start the Leptin Reset and Regain Leptin Sensitivity

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's been so long.

Vanessa Spina: It feels like ages. Like, I'm so happy that we're back at it.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. So, what is new in your life? You've been gallivanting about the world?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We just got back from absolutely stunning Greek Islands, which is one of our favorite places to go. And we go to this absolutely beautiful resort. It's actually a design hotel, but it's for families and young kids mostly, so everyone there has a one- or two-year-old or multiples. And it's really fun because it makes it so easy and casual to go to eat because they have baby seats already set up. And then if your kid makes a mess, like, you don't care, because they're used to doing that. And if your kid screams, there're two other kids who are screaming more. So, it's very nice to just be in that environment. And it's super easy because we do like this halfboards, they have breakfast and dinner, and it is one of the most phenomenal buffets I've ever experienced. It's just such high-quality food and it's Greek food, which is amazing.

We just had an incredible time. And they have this thing every night called the baby disco. So, after dinner, we usually go and watch the sunset at the beach. And then at 8:15, all the babies and the parents gather in this area they call the place. They also have movies and stuff there, and they do baby disco for like half an hour and they just do songs and all the babies dance along. And so, at the beginning, Luca was really overwhelmed and at the end, he was, like, doing all the moves and it was so adorable. It's some of the most adorable videos I've ever taken of him.

At one point, they all had sombreros on and they were dancing along to the music and it was so unbelievably cute. And then the babies, some of them like, one of this-- one girl tried to dance with Luca and was kissing him. It's just like so cute because they're like 1.5. It's the most adorable thing ever. So, we had an incredible time, like recharge, all the sun, all the grounding in the water, playing on the beach all day, swimming in the ocean. I feel incredible right now.

Melanie Avalon: That's so amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I was telling you I was thinking of you while we're there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited to hear.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, this buffet, I'm telling you, it's amazing. Of course, they have all the things. The breakfast buffet is, like, insane. And the dinner every night is different and it's just, like, never-ending and just so amazing. But every morning and every night, they have this station near the salads, and they have several different types of cucumbers. And they're all peeled, and some of them are in sections, like long sections, others are in just slices, and then they have cubed. And this is like a cucumber, just like this cucumber section. I love cucumbers. Like, sometimes just the seeds, like the seeded part in the middle, and they have these long stems of them and stuff. So, every time I went to get cucumbers, I was laughing. Melanie would love this as well. It's just like it all peeled for you, all sliced, all done and it's like unlimited.

Melanie Avalon: And it's different types of cucumbers?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they have a few different types. And then, of course, because it's Greece, they have Greek salad every night, which is, like, basically cucumber base. And then like, fresh feta and peppers and tomatoes and stuff. But it's just like the freshest food, so amazing. But the cucumbers are like it's just so nice to just-- I don't know, have a break from cooking, have a break from meal prep. And I was like, "Melanie would definitely appreciate this cucumber situation as well."

Melanie Avalon: I would wipe out that section, it would be gone.

Vanessa Spina: And they have amazing fresh fish, like every night, fresh seafood. Yeah, it's a dream.

Melanie Avalon: They have blueberries?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, actually, no, they didn't have blueberries because they're not in season there, but they had fresh strawberries and they grow a lot of the food that they serve there on the property gardens. So, it's so organic. They have this amazing organic garden that you can go tour and it's really high quality, amazing food. So, whatever diet you're doing, you can keep up. And then I switch up my intermittent fasting when we're there. And I do the breakfast and then fast till dinner. So, yeah, it's awesome. But how have you been?

Melanie Avalon: I've been good. Do you want to help me with my current conundrum?

Vanessa Spina: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I don't know if I should share this because I feel like it's going to make me sound crazy and neurotic, but I guess we're way past that point anyways. Okay. So, I love wine right. At home honestly, I only drink Dry Farm Wines, which listeners have heard me talk about all the time. I guess they don't deliver to Europe.

Vanessa Spina: I tried it at KetoCon once.

Melanie Avalon: That was a while ago, probably, right.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I had a friend who at some point she wanted to set one up over here. They really should.

Melanie Avalon: To do European delivery. Yeah. So, basically, for listeners who aren't familiar, it's not like a brand of wine. They go all throughout Europe and they find all the wineries that are practicing organic practices, and then they test the wines to make sure that they are low sugar, low alcohol, organic, free of mold, free of toxins, all the things. So, it's really only the wine I drink because it is what makes me feel really amazing still the next day. So, when I go out, I just look and I think I've talked about this at length, but when I go out, I just look up all the wines on the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic at whatever given restaurant because normally if it's like a nice restaurant and you look up all the wines.

Normally some of the wineries are practicing organic practices. And then I normally even go one step further and I'll try to find that alcohol content and try to find ones that are 13% or less alcohol by volume. Dry Farm Wines is 12.5% or less. In any case that's what works for me. But coming up is my brother's wedding this weekend. So, it's the rehearsal dinner on Friday and then the wedding on Saturday, which Vanessa, it is not my skill set to go out and do something very social two nights in a row. It's just not, I cap out at like once per week.

Vanessa Spina: I can relate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, like, going out and it's funny because I'm an introvert and I love going out. I love it. But I have to recover the next day. I'm already a little stressed at, like, going because it's far. It's like an hour and a half away. So, going to the rehearsal dinner, coming back an hour and a half, going to bed, rinse and repeat, an hour and a half, there wedding, and then coming back. So, all of that to say, if it was just one event, I would just suck it up and drink the wine. If I was just going to the wedding, I would drink the wine there. It'll be fine, live and let live. But I don't want to drink nonorganic wine on the rehearsal dinner and then go to the wedding the next day because I don't know how it'll make me feel.

Melanie Avalon: And like, literally, it's not like I go crazy. I just don't feel well now when I don't drink organic wine. So, the question is, at the rehearsal dinner. Can I bring up my own bottle of wine?

Vanessa Spina: Why not? I mean--

Melanie Avalon: Here's the caveat. It's at a winery.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh. Yikes.

Melanie Avalon: Can I hide it in my purse and then pour the wine in the trash?

Vanessa Spina: No, that's legit. Something I would do. I would put it in a nondescript bottle or something and just bring it because no one would really know or care. But I'm very specific about certain things like that. And I would say if it was anywhere other than a winery, go for it. But yeah, if it is at a winery, what I would do would probably be to put it in something else, like a water bottle, something that looks like a water bottle and just like.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have my wine bottle. So, like, when I went and saw Moulin Rouge, I got this amazing Moulin Rouge aluminum water bottle, but it's actually my wine bottle. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: That's perfect. You're all set.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so maybe I'll just do that. Although people are going to be like because the Dry Farm Wines wine is very light. It doesn't look dark. People might be like, "Where is that from?" Like "I don't know."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would just, like, be like, "Look over there." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Mm, what? Okay.

Vanessa Spina: Just ask them a question about themselves and yeah, they'll instantly be distracted.

Melanie Avalon: This is true. One of my friends, actually, Scott, my business partner, I was asking him, he's like, "Just bring a 20, go up to the server beforehand, can you just fill my glass with this wine instead?"

Vanessa Spina: That's a great idea. I would go with either of those. But it depends on how the wait staff is. If the wait staff works for the winery or if they're contracted in or something because they might have rules about that. And you're like going up to the owner's son or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. So, the things I stress about. And again, if it was just like the one event, I would just suck it up. But I want to feel really sparkly at the wedding.

Vanessa Spina: You should, it's your brother's wedding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Everybody else is staying down there, but as you know, traveling stresses me out. So, literally, that's why I'm like going there, coming back, going there, coming back.

Vanessa Spina: You got to do what works for you and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Thank you. For listeners though, so, if you'd like to get your own Dry Farm Wines, you can get it at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that gets you a bottle for a penny. Okay, I have one announcement, but just first, do you go to a lot of weddings? Are weddings different in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, we had our wedding here and it was amazing. It was like a fairy tale.

Melanie Avalon: Was it at a castle?

Vanessa Spina: We had it in this beautiful place called the Hall of Mirrors, which is like this incredible chapel. It looked like an Italian just frescoed, just absolutely stunning roof and room and everything. But we took a horse-drawn carriage after from there, all through the city, like through this main town, old town, over the bridge and then to the Mandarin where we had our reception. And I just felt like a princess because we had the horse-drawn carriage.

There're just so many things about Prague that are like a fairy tale. Weddings are pretty much the same here. They have some different traditions, but they're not all that different. It's definitely wedding season now because there's like a stag party or a stagette or a hen's party. People call it that in England.

Melanie Avalon: Is that like a bachelor party wait, a stag's party? What is that?

Vanessa Spina: Stag is like yeah, bachelor party, stagette. And then they also like there's a lot of Brits that come here for those events and some of them are called like a hen something like for the women, I don't know all the terms, but you regularly just see people in crazy costumes like if they're with their guy friends or things like on their stagette or stag party.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, awesome. Because I feel like I have a lot of family in Germany and I feel like they talk about weddings being days and days long.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, definitely traditional Czech weddings can be like that.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, well, one quick announcement for listeners because we finally just made a decision about this. We were really on the fence. I have four supplements out to date. And the last thing we did, I think maybe or I don't know if it was this last or the Magnesium Nightcap, but in any case, we released a large bottle subscription option for my serrapeptase. And the benefits of that is it's more sustainable for the environment because it's less bottles, less shipping costs and it saves money for everybody. So, everybody wins. Helps your wallet, helps the planet. All good things.

We don't currently have a subscription out for berberine, which I love berberine. For listeners who are concerned with their blood glucose levels, it is amazing for modulating blood sugar levels, it's been found to be comparable to metformin, the pharmaceutical. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that, like cholesterol lowering. It can even support longevity pathways like AMPK, which is something that we talk about a lot with fasting. So that's super cool. Beneficial effects on the gut microbiome. All cool things. I've been getting a lot of requests for a subscription for it. And we wanted to do the large bottle because people were loving the large bottle idea. But here's the thing. We aren't quite sure how people are currently taking it. We don't know how often, how many because people seem to be all over the place. The general recommendation is two of them before meals. You could do that once or twice a day. We don't know what size bottle to create and how many capsules to put in it.

So, what we're going to do is we're going to do a special trial launch special where you guys get to help us know what you want when it comes to a large bottle. Okay, so July 7 at 07:00 P.M., we're going to launch berberine subscriptions with two options. So, you can either get two bottles of the normal bottles every two months or three bottles of the normal bottles every three months. That will help us know sort of how often you guys are wanting to get the berberine and how many. And from there we'll make the large bottles.

Hopefully, that wasn't confusing. Basically, this is a chance for A, you to get an amazing launch special on the subscription and help us figure out what you guys want so we can make the best large bottle option possible. And just in case you're wondering, I've learned so much about the supplement industry. Like, before this, I would have been like, it's no big deal. Can't you just make multiple options? But friends, it is not that easy. You're like committing to order numbers and it's basically a pretty solid decision that we have to make. So that's why we're doing this trial run.

So, you can get updates at avalonx.us/emaillist or text updates by texting AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And doing that also gets you a 20% off coupon code. Okay. That was so long. Yes, Vanessa, I'm excited for you to maybe enter the supplement world with me.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. Yeah, I'm super excited for the first one, Tone Protein. And yeah, I think it's going to be just really exciting. I love creating things and just like creating all the things that go with it, especially the design aspects. It's just such a satisfying process to create something, especially when it's something that you feel passionately about, like mitochondrial health or ketones or protein or serrapeptase or magnesium. It really lines up with your values and what you are passionate about. So, I think it's really thrilling. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And how can listeners get on your email list for updates about what you'll be creating?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, if you go to toneprotein.com, you can sign up to be the first to know when we announce and release and also get access to exclusive sales and promotions and all the things. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And for listeners, something I love about Vanessa, you're just such a boss woman. Like, "Anytime I text you about anything, I don't even blink and then it's done." You're like "I'm doing it. You're amazing."

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for saying that. Sometimes I just feel like I'm running all these businesses, like, flying by the seat of my pants. So, it feels really nice to hear that. And yeah, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: You know, you're really efficient at executing things and you're doing it all with a child, which blows my mind.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: But in any case, shall we jump into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. I was previewing the questions yesterday and was really excited for these ones.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, would you like to read the first one?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We have a question from Dina, and the subject is a blood test. "Hello. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommend to figure out which foods suit me best? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Dina. Thank you for your question or Dina. Dina. What did you say? What do you think it is?

Vanessa Spina: Dina.

Melanie Avalon: Dina, probably.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Dina. Dina. So I have a curveball answer for this question. I wonder if you can guess.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I know you work with InsideTracker. We work with InsideTracker, but I also know, like, you did a bunch of testing with was it the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Mm. Okay. "Oh, that didn't even occur to me. Okay, that's a good one, too. Okay, you're very close." So, I will talk about InsideTracker as well. But actually, because when people think of what foods work for them, they're wanting to do a blood test. Often they're thinking of things like Dina said, so, like an IgG sensitivity blood test or an IgE panel. To clarify, IgE would be-- that's more "concrete." So, if you do an IgE blood panel, which is something that even a conventional doctor is probably more likely to test, that will show you what you are actually allergic to.

So, for example, I'm allergic to wheat, which was so exciting when I found out because I'd been gluten-free way before that. So, then I felt like I officially could say no to gluten-containing things. I do know that there's more to wheat than just gluten, but in any case and then I have an IgE reaction to sesame. Do you know if you have any IgE food allergies?

Vanessa Spina: My main one is gluten.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. So that's IgE, then there's IgG, which is a very debated food sensitivity topic. The debate is because basically, IgG are markers of the immune system's memory to things that you've been exposed to, like, often foods. And some people say that you have IgG just to things that you're eating anyways, that doesn't necessarily indicate an allergy or a sensitivity. Other people say that if you have a sealed gut, you wouldn't be reacting to those proteins. So, it's a whole debate. I don't know. Where do you stand on that debate, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I don't really have an opinion on it, actually. I don't think I know enough about it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, that's a nice place too because it's stressful. [laughs] Also, I really respect you in saying. Maybe we talked about this, one of my favorite things is just reserving the right to not have an opinion, especially in today's world, where everybody has an opinion about everything all the time. So, I love that concept. You don't have to have an opinion. It's very freeing. So that's that world honestly. And I realized I opened this by saying I was going to give my answer and I went on a rabbit hole. But for the IgG, I don't really have a go-to recommendation. Historically, I have done a few different ones, but honestly, I don't have a go-to for that. And then genetic testing. So, I'll circle back to InsideTracker because they do provide that.

But all of that to say the first thing I think of when it comes to food reactions is actually wearing a CGM. So, that does relate to ZOE like Vanessa was saying. And the reason I recommend that is because if you're wearing a continuous glucose monitor, you're going to see how different foods are affecting your blood sugar. So not necessarily an allergy per se or a sensitivity per se, but you are going to see what foods are suiting you because it's going to show you metabolically with your metabolic health, what is best supporting your blood sugar levels so that you're not getting crazy spikes or so that your blood sugar is not staying elevated. On top of that, some people will also say-- I feel like Vanessa, did you maybe talk about this in your book? Some people will say that "If you do have a sensitivity to a food, you might get a blood sugar spike just from the sensitivity aspect of it."

Vanessa Spina: I did talk about it in the book. I'm pretty sure.

Melanie Avalon: I think you did. Do you still feel that way or do you not have an opinion?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I think it's really interesting because you can get so much insight from measuring your blood glucose. And I think that it's definitely like one form of feedback. Like, I wouldn't say it's the be all end all, but if your blood glucose is spiking after something that maybe shouldn't necessarily be spiking so much after, it could give you some insight. But I remember it was one of the things I would get the most questions about that people were like, "Can I use this to identify sensitivities?" I just find the interpersonal variability on reactions to foods to be fascinating, but, yeah, it could definitely maybe signal something to look into more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's that. And then I know some people. I haven't sat down and done a test for this, but I have noticed it after eating, if you feel like your blood pressure is going up or you get an adrenaline response, that can often be a sign of reacting to the food. And then I don't remember who talked about this. "Oh, man, I wish I could remember." I was like, "Whoa, that's crazy." One person was saying what you could do. "Oh, man. Okay, make sure I say this correctly." It had to do with time perception. I'm going to have to find it. It was something about using a met, is it a metronome? Something that taps for time? Metronome?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there's one on my-- I'm not a musical person. Metronome sets like the pace, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm going to have to circle back to this and figure out what they said. But it was something about using a metronome for time perception before or after eating a food. And if you are reacting to the food, you would perceive the time differently because of the adrenaline response. I was like, "Whoa, that's next level." [laughs] It's next level. So, in any case, ZOE actually would be a really good example. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I had Tim Spector on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Have you had him on the Optimal Protein podcast?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, no.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if you'd like me to connect you to him.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: So, he has the ZOE program and they actually pair up a CGM with a food. So basically, you eat these-- We've talked about it a lot in the show. You eat these muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God the muffins.

Melanie Avalon: So, you've done it?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I remember listening that "You had to eat the muffins and you were like, I'm going to get to it." You were maybe stalling on it a bit or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was majorly stalling because I knew it was going to be after fasting for so long. After not eating processed food for so long, the idea of sitting down, eating a processed sugary fatty confection, and then just sitting with that and not like "I knew it was going to majorly create cravings." And then I was going to have to not eat. This is going to be miserable.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon: And I remember you might have been listening, but Gin and I kept debating because Gin was like, "You're going to hate the muffins." And I was like, "I'm going to love the muffins."

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I remember, you talking about that. And I was like, "She's probably going to love the muffins."

Melanie Avalon: That muffin, Vanessa, I still think about it, "Oh, it was so good."

Vanessa Spina: Was it because she didn't think they were that great?

Melanie Avalon: She said it was hard to finish them.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but if your receptors have been totally reset from not eating any confectionery like that, even the most basic, gluten-free, basic muffin would probably taste amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, it literally, I watched my brain light up like a drug. I was like, "This is a drug." [laughs] And then it was so sad. I had one bite and I was so sad because I was like, "This feels amazing and it's going to be over soon." And then I have to sit there. [laughs] It was so awful. Oh, man. And then interestingly, I did do a poll in my Facebook group after, and I asked people. There was like four options. It was, "Do you eat processed foods? Did you like the muffins? Do you eat processed foods? Did you not like the muffins? Do you not eat processed food? Did you like the muffins? Do you not eat processed foods? Do you not like the muffins?" And it was exactly what I predicted. People who normally eat processed foods did not like the muffins, and people who don't eat processed foods liked the muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would have guessed that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All that to say with that experiment, it actually helps, you know, how you clear carbs and fat. So, do you clear carbs better from the bloodstream or fat? And I actually have some thoughts about there.

Vanessa Spina: What were your results? I don't think I ever heard.

Melanie Avalon: It was what I thought, that I am better with fats, actually.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because I remember, I think Gin found out that it confirmed that she would not be optimal for keto or something like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

Vanessa Spina: I remember her saying it was showing that's why all those years ago when she tried keto, it didn't work for her. And now she knows that it's because she doesn't clear the fat well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she did have a whole thing with that. My primary issue with the program and I think it's a great program, and I talked to Tim about this when I interviewed him. But my primary thing is that the conclusion they draw if you don't clear fat well-- there's not a low-carb muffin. There's no setup for people to clear fat in the absence of carbs. But it's a higher carb, lower fat, and then it's a higher fat lower carb, but it's not low carb. I don't know if you can get the information that you need from it. And then on top of that, the irony is that it might say that you're not good at clearing fat and that might actually mean that a low-carb diet would be really good for you because it's signaling that you need a different context to deal with fat. This is just my opinion.

So, the conclusion they draw, like, if you don't clear fat well, you should not be having fat. I think some people, those might actually be the perfect people to go on a low-carb diet. Not necessarily a high-fat diet, but a low-carb diet, which is the opposite of what they recommend. All of that to say, "Oh, you also get a gut microbiome test with it." So, all of that to say, this is getting very long links for people. If you would like to get a CGM, get NutriSense and you can save $30, just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30, and it will get you one month of free dietitian support. And what I love about NutriSense, people love the dietitian support option. It's super cool from your results and it's optional, of course, you don't have to talk to anybody.

But it gives you so much data. Like, when you download the app, there's just so much data there, it can be hard to interpret it or know what it means. Did I even say what a CGM is? I don't know if I did. It's something that you put on your arm, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid around the cells constantly. So, you get a continuous picture of your blood sugar levels, 24/7 for two weeks. So, it's very telling. And like I said, it will really help show what foods are appropriate for you. So, $30 off with the code IFPODCAST at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and that will get you one month of free dietitian support. And if you would like to try ZOE, I thought we had an IFPODCAST code, but I'm not finding it. So, you can actually use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON10 and that will get you 10% off their program.

And then lastly, for blood and genetic tests, I do love InsideTracker. On the blood side of things, they're not going to give you food sensitivity options. It's more about biomarkers related to metabolic health, longevity, all of those things. It's all the things you really need to be testing to get a clear picture of your health, your metabolic status, but gives you something called your inner age, which is your, "biological age." And so, you can see how young you are on the inside and you can track your levels of everything over time, which is a game changer for me. And they actually just added some women's biomarkers, which is super cool. So, they added estrogen, progesterone, and TSH. And then right before that, they had recently added ApoB, which I'm very excited about. "Oh, I have a really quick story, Vanessa." So, doctors in Prague? Is the whole medical system completely different or is it similar?"

Vanessa Spina: It's quite different, I would say, but in some good ways and some negative ways. It's quite different.

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have insurance companies?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, everyone who's here has to have state insurance and they used to have private insurance companies. Now they're like debating in Parliament what they're doing with that. But what's fascinating is that if you go to the hospital, when we first got here, I spilled hot tea on my leg and we had to go to the emergency, and I paid just cash at the hospital for being seen by the doctor and getting medication. It was like $4.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Really?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because they still have this state sort of communist-style medical system where no one pays for medical, and they don't have the same systems where the prices get inflated and stuff too, by all the insurers. So even if you're here and you don't have insurance and something happens to you, you will never go bankrupt or broke or something like that because something happens, and then they really are not like a litigious society. So, I always find this funny, but say you slip and fall on someone's property, like in North America, sometimes people sue for that. You can't sue for damages. There's a schedule of-- if you broke your knee or you twisted your ankle, you get this much money, you just get a small fee, but it's all preset instead of these crazy settlements and stuff. So, it's quite different. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Does that work well, because it just stops people from-- I don't know like all this-- I don't want to say drama because justice can be served, but I don't know, does it make things easier?

Vanessa Spina: I think in a way it sets like a tone of self-responsibility. So, it's like, okay, if something happens, it's more so about your self-responsibility. If you spilled a hot beverage on yourself from a place, even if they didn't have a warning label on it, you could never sue for millions or something like that. They would just throw you out. They would just, like, laugh you out, of there because they'd be like, well, you spilled the coffee. There're a lot of things that they have different mindset mentality about. But it's really interesting as a North American to be an expat and compare and contrast the two systems because there's also things about it here that I really don't love. When you give birth, you don't necessarily have a private room assigned to you. It's only if there's enough private rooms. And that's one of the leftovers of that socialist system that is like, weird, where you'd be like, well, why don't they just give everyone a private room? So, there're definitely things that I love and things I don't love as much.

Melanie Avalon: And you had Luca there?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I gave birth to him here and it was a wonderful experience and we're lucky that we ended up getting private rooms so that we could all be together, because during COVID if you didn't have a private room, your partner just couldn't be there at all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, I have a lot of friends here who had really bad experiences where their partner couldn't be there or could just come for an hour or two for visiting hours. Things got so wonky all over the world during COVID. But yeah, that was, like, a very stressful thing. So, I was like, "Oh, my God, I hope we get a private room and you can be there with us." And luckily, we did get that. But I definitely had thoughts at times of just, like, going back to Canada, North America, and giving birth there, but we were at a really top hospital.

Melanie Avalon: What year did you have him in?

Vanessa Spina: In 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you have to wear a mask during delivery?

Vanessa Spina: No, thank God. It was, like, right after that. But yeah, there were definitely situations that people went through that were just so horrible, like, having to wear a mask during labor. I've heard some stories that are just pretty horrendous, but yeah, thankfully everything is pretty much back to normal now. But yeah, totally different systems. But why do you ask?

Melanie Avalon: Quick question. How long were you in labor?

Vanessa Spina: I was in labor for like two and a half days.

Melanie Avalon: I can't do it.

Vanessa Spina: No, it's fine. My whole life my biggest fear was childbirth.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's my biggest fear. [laughs] That's why I'm--

Vanessa Spina: Every time I would be like, in a stressful situation, I'd be like, "Well, at least I'm not pregnant right now. I don't have to give birth." Like, it would always make me feel better, but your body's built to do it, which in the end made me feel better. But I actually had to be induced. My pregnancy was so amazing and seamless and smooth, but I didn't like, Luca just wasn't coming out, and he was like two weeks late, so I had to be induced. And then I wasn't progressing. And then his heartbeat started slowing. So, after like, two and a half days, I just got so exhausted. And the doctor was like, I think we should do a C-section now before it gets more complicated and stressful and have to be unconscious. So, I was like, "Okay, let's just do it." And it ended up being amazing. I barely have a C-section scar, recovery went really well and also used red light for my recovery. And I have no C-section scar, but I'm going on so many tangents right now.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I love it. Man, I feel like if I had a baby, I'd like, outfit that delivery room, be like, let's bring in the red light, some cold therapy.

Vanessa Spina: I'm definitely bringing it this time because I started the red-light therapy quite a bit after giving birth and having the scar, and I still can like, you can barely see that I even have a scar. It's crazy. So, I only imagine just the internal and external healing that'll happen this time that I've got all these super powerful panels and I'm going to bring one with me. And yeah, it's definitely like, we'll see how things go the next time around. But yeah, I definitely could see you outfitting your room with a whole bunch of biohacking tools and things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Wow. And did you have your red light at that time, your product?

Vanessa Spina: No, it was before that. I was still, like, researching at that point, so I think I had a different red light, but I didn't think about it at the time to use it.

Melanie Avalon: So many things. And how can people get your panels? What's your link?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you. The panels that I created are called the Tone Lux and they are at ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out the three panels that I have there and yeah, thank you, for asking.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about it. Although now I have one other tangent. I am so sorry. When you spilled the tea on your knee, whenever I hear that, I think about the time that I spilled on my knee, because I feel like people hear that they're like, "Oh, that's not bad." "No, if you have spilled coffee or tea, it is the most painful thing."

Vanessa Spina: I can't believe that happened to you, too.

Melanie Avalon: It was coffee, but yeah, and the memory from it you know when you have a memory that's so impactful, it's in slow motion in your head?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Just like assuming.

Vanessa Spina: I know, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Melanie Avalon: This is on my list. There're a few key memories where I've seen very attractive people and it's in slow motion in my head. And I had this memory of spilling the coffee on my knee at the car shop in Santa Monica and them calling the ambulance. And then I just remember the ENT coming in slow motion and he was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. And I just have this vision in my head. So, every time I hear tea spilled, I'm like, beautiful, attractive ENT man running to my rescue.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. Yeah, it's one of the most painful things I've ever experienced.

Melanie Avalon: It's so painful. How did you spill it?

Vanessa Spina: We were in the car and went through a drive-through and I got hot tea, and I think I just put it between my knees for a second or something like that, and then I can't remember exactly what happened, but, yeah, it spilled all over my leg. And it's crazy because at first, you're like, "Oh, that hurts. That hurts a lot." But it's later that it gets so much worse.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I remember I spilled-- I don't know how I did it, but I spilled a whole thing of coffee. And at first, it was like this really intense pain, but I was like, "Oh, it's fine." Do you want us to call an ambulance? I was like, no, it's fine. And then I sat there and then I started getting nauseous, and I was like, "Okay, maybe this is not fine."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, good times. Good times in life. So, the reason I was asking about the doctor situation. So here I do have a conventional doctor through my insurance and I think I've talked about this before as well, but it's hard to find I know, for instance, it is hard to find a conventional doctor who tests what you want to be testing. And I don't want to judge the whole system, but I have personally found it hard to find a doctor who is really in line with my thinking who's on my insurance.

So, where I have landed is I have found a conventional doctor through my insurance. So, everything's covered, who will literally just test whatever I want him to test? Like, I don't think he really knows or cares. So, what do you want to test? And I just give them a laundry list and then they just check it all off. But the reason I thought about this, I was talking about InsideTracker and ApoB. I don't get my blood drawn at the office because I have in the past fainted.

So, I'd like to just go where I like to go, which is a certain Labcorp. Like, I like my routine, so they give me the order form and then I leave. And every time they give me the order form where they filled it out per my recommendations. And then I see all the other tests I want on it. And I'm like, can I just click off these boxes?

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I like the claim. You think they'll remember that I didn't.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: So last time the one I saw was ApoB. And I was like, "Ha, I just want to check the box."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I did not, though. So, I'll just get it from InsideTracker. To wrap this all up. "Oh, my gosh. I've talked the whole episode with this one question and you haven't even answered yet?". Okay, so InsideTracker, they do have blood testing and they have genetic testing as well. And what's really cool is they will show you when you get back your blood results what your genetic tendencies are. So, you know if you're doing worse or better than your genetics might indicate, because as we know or maybe we don't, but I think it's becoming more well known that epigenetics are highly much more influential than genetics. So, just if you have a genetic tendency towards something doesn't mean that you are destined to that, your diet and lifestyle have a much more profound effect even genes that people think are deterministic.

So, for example, people often think that the ApoE4 gene for Alzheimer's is deterministic, but it actually is not. It's actually something that people can really take agency with their diet and lifestyle. If you would like to try InsideTracker, our link for that is you can get 20% off their plan. Just go to insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. So that's 20% off at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. And I will say one last thing. One of my favorite things about InsideTracker is you can upload your own labs as well. So, for example, those results that I get back from my doctor, I upload them into the portal and you can see over time, you can track everything. And it's been a game changer for me. It makes charts, it makes graphs. It really just gives me sanity and peace when it comes to my blood work. So, Dina, you were probably hoping I was going to give you a food sensitivity test and I did not. So, Vanessa, what are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina: No, I think she was asking about the stuff that you've talked about before.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you think so?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I didn't actually prepare an answer because I don't have any to recommend. And as soon as I saw the question, I was like, "Oh, she's probably asking about what the ZOE one is?" Because I know you guys talked about it a lot in the past or maybe it was InsideTracker, but I could be wrong. Dina, I apologize if I'm wrong, but I think Dina is asking about the one that you have recommended in the past about the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because it's written in past tense. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommended? Ooh. Well, that was a nice recap then. Okay. Shall we answer another question?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: And this one is much more in Vanessa's court. So. this comes from Nikki. The subject is leptin resistance, and Nikki says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. I suspect I have leptin resistance in addition to insulin resistance, and I was wondering if you can give some advice on how to tackle this. I know some say to do low carb, but by way of background, I have a history of very restrictive dieting in my 20s, which then led to years of binge eating disorder. While I am no longer binging, I don't restrict foods because it would trigger binge eating. I practice intuitive eating and food freedom but within the context of prioritizing protein and crowding out the more processed foods as much as possible. So, while I do eat pretty well, going keto or low carb isn't really an option for me. But I do have Vanessa's Tone device, and I get into, "Light fat-burning mode every day." So, I don't want to think my carbs are out of control." And I do want to clarify for listeners because we've mentioned Tone now twice with Vanessa, but it's actually not this thing. So, we mentioned her tone protein and we mentioned her tone red light panels. This is actually her Tone ketone breath analyzer device. Is that also the same link that you gave?

Vanessa Spina: It's also @ketogenicgirl yes, it's the tone device, the original tone device.

Melanie Avalon: So different thing there. So, she says, "I do have Vanessa's Tone device and I get into light fat-burning mode every day, so I don't think my carbs are out of control. The other advice I hear is to stop eating after dark, but that's easier said than done when you're hungry at night due to the leptin resistance. I always feel hungry right before bed, even when I've had a great day of nourishing food. No amount of protein makes me not hungry at night LOL. Will more aggressive fasting 24-plus hour fast lower my leptin levels like they lower insulin levels? Do you have any other suggestions for how to tackle this problem?" Thanks, ladies. Nikki. So, this is a Vanessa question.

Vanessa Spina: I really love this question. Hi, Nikki. Thank you for submitting this question and providing so much background. Now, leptin is such a fascinating hormone because it's a more recently discovered hormone. So, we're still learning so much about it. And I definitely talk about it on my other podcast, Optimal Protein podcast, quite a bit. And I think that keto, as you mentioned, is definitely a great tool for lowering leptin. But I do have some other tips for you.

The first one would be to test your leptin levels because then you can really know for sure if you have leptin resistance. So, actually, Dr. Rick Johnson, I interviewed him. One of the interviews I did with him on the podcast, he talked about the specific range of leptin that you should look for for it to be optimal. So, I have to find that episode for you. But the first thing I would do is test because you said that you suspect that you have leptin resistance and insulin resistance. But I think it'd be good to confirm it to know because then you can know if these strategies and tools will sort of help with that.

What's so interesting about leptin is that you kind of want to have this sort of Goldilocks amount of it. You don't want to have too little leptin you don't want to have too much. And leptin is basically secreted from our fat cells, especially after we eat. And they are supposed to signal to the brain when they dock on the leptin receptors in the brain that we should stop eating now because we have enough fuel on board. And the fact that you said that you have this sort of insatiable hunger at night, sounds like it could potentially be connected to that.

And so, if your leptin signaling is blocked and what's really fascinating is if you have insulin resistance, insulin actually competes at a similar receptor site for leptin. So, if you have a lot of insulin floating around, then you could potentially be impeding that docking, that leptin docking. So, the brain is not getting the signal that you have enough energy and also, you're not able to then turn on sort of the fat burning as well, which is what happens in a lot of cases with obese people, is that it's a problem with leptin signaling.

So, one of the best things that you can do is actually, like you mentioned, is not eating at night, is closing your eating window early in the day because a lot of that signaling with leptin actually happens around midnight. So, if you've just eaten a big meal before you go to bed, then you also may be interfering with the leptin docking. So, it's definitely one of the big sorts of strategies. I would also recommend, like getting your circadian rhythm synced up well, getting morning light can really help with the cascade of hormones that's triggered from melanopsin and the eye detecting morning light.

That specific light wavelengths that you get in the morning, they trigger a lot of hormonal cascades so it could really help support that. And you mentioned that you prioritize protein and you crowd out the more processed foods as much as possible. And I think that's a really great strategy. As far as fasting, like sort of doing extended fasting, 24 hour-plus fast, that definitely is something that will lower both insulin resistance and leptin resistance. So, that's one of the things that is attributed to keto is that it lowers leptin.

So, it definitely could be something, especially because there is this interrelationship between insulin and leptin as well. If you lower blood glucose, you lower insulin, you're going to also be able to lower leptin levels. I haven't looked at specific research on leptin and doing extended fast. I don't know if you have Melanie and maybe you have anything to add on this question.

Melanie Avalon: I have not looked at it in extended fasting, actually I do have a question for you because you're talking about testing leptin levels. When do you test that? And what's the timeline of leptin in the system? And does leptin in the bloodstream reflect? What does it actually tell you?

Vanessa Spina: It's actually a question we should have Dr. Rick on for when we have him on.

Melanie Avalon: When we have him on, we should yeah, I'll make a note. So, he knows a lot about this?

Vanessa Spina: He does. And he tests for leptin with his patients and he knows a lot about it. I mean, he wrote a lot about it in his book, but he knows what that sort of optimal amount of leptin, like what healthy leptin looks like so that you are at getting the proper signaling. And when leptin is really elevated, it means that it's not docking because it's leftover circulating in the blood. But I don't know what the ideal time is for it. I don't know if there is an ideal time. Like, I don't know if you would get different measurements at different times of day because it is secreted after you eat from your fat cells. So, it's a great question and a great question for Rick.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm going to make a note now because we are bringing him on. That's going to be so fun. Vanessa and I are Rick Johnson fan girls. I showed Vanessa this. I got so happy the other day. He wanted to know how I enjoyed the Taylor Swift concert and said I looked like Taylor Swift at the concert. And my day, I like a life was made. He's a nicest, precious man.

Vanessa Spina: Precious gem of a man.

Melanie Avalon: And he loves musicals. His daughter is very musically talented and his son. It's so cool that I love when there are families like that are, like, sciency and creative.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that was a fantastic answer. I knew Vanessa would be able to do that much more justice than I can because I haven't done a lot of research into leptin, and I really probably should. The only thing I will add on is two things. So, this, well, three things. One Vanessa, do you have thoughts on "Is it Jack Kruse, the Leptin Reset diet?"

Vanessa Spina: Yes, he has a great Leptin Reset protocol.

Melanie Avalon: So, that might be something to check out. I have not done it, but I just know-- especially when I was really steeped more in the low-carb world and gallivanting about the forms and such, I would see people talking about his work a lot. That might be something to check out. I'll put a link to that in the show notes and then two other things. I completely hear you and understand. And first of all, congratulations with no longer struggling with the binging or no longer binging, I don't know if you're struggling with it emotionally. I am happy for you that you are finding what works for you.

So, I'm wondering two things. One, you're crowding out the processed foods as much as possible. I wonder if you're still maybe like I was talking about earlier with how I react to the muffin, for example. I wonder if you're still eating something that is creating a blood sugar drop and a response like if you're eating something that is not serving you. And if that's the case, of course, we don't want you to fall into a restrictive pattern or binge eating or anything like that,

I just wonder if that is the case, if instead it's possible to have a sort of paradigm shift where it's not about restricting, but maybe focusing on what you can eat. So, maybe you could try and experiment for just a day. I don't know if this is happening every night for her. Always feel hungry right before bed. So, what if you tried one day where you only ate whole foods, like nourishing whole foods to abundance, so no restriction, and just see how that affects your hunger before bed? Oh, also this would be a great time to try a CGM like we talked about earlier. You could see when you're hungry at night if it is from a blood sugar drop. Actually, you might want to start there or do that as one of the first things, because then you'll know in that hungry moment, are you having a blood sugar drop or not. And that will be so telling. So again, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast, coupon code IFPODCAST for $30 off.

And then my last recommendation would be I know you are eating nourishing food, but really focusing on high nutrient-rich food. It could be like a micronutrient deficiency of some sort. So, I don't know what you're eating, but seafood and meat and fish and things really, really high in nutrients, maybe egg yolks, if that's something that works for you. I just find that when people focus on nutrition that that can really move the needle for some people.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's a great tip. And I'm a huge fan of making liver pate and having it once or twice a month just for that nutrient density. But I love that you brought up the Leptin Reset protocol by Dr. Jack Kruse. And I know that his recommendation is to have like, 50? I think it's around 50 g of protein when you wake up, right? Yeah. Within half an hour to an hour of waking.

There's also a book, a really interesting book by an author, he wrote a book on leptin going through all the research and science on it. And he says, make sure you get that protein. But also, no snacking between meals is a really important thing for lowering leptin. Yeah, I think that's the last thing that I wanted to add, but, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things you can do to reset it. Yeah, let us know how it goes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, please keep us updated. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for this episode, which will have links to everything that we talked about, which is a lot of things, as well as a full transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode322. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl right. Yes, I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: No, I really enjoyed all the questions and I can't wait to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. All right, well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: All right, talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

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Jun 11

Episode 321: Vegetarianism, Red Meat Consumption, Cucumbers, Probiotics, Fecal Transplants, Coffee Recommendations, Powdered MCT Oil, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Effect of Lactobacillus rhamnosus HN001 and Bifidobacterium longum BB536 on the healthy gut microbiota composition at phyla and species level: A preliminary study

Welcome to Episode 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

Listener Q&A: Alissa - Probiotics and Supplements

The International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics consensus statement on the scope and appropriate use of the term probiotic

The impact of meals on a probiotic during transit through a model of the human upper gastrointestinal tract

ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At Athleticgreens.Com/Ifpodcast

Listener Q&A: Grace - What’s your favorite black coffee brand?

Go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee and use the code melanieavalon for an exclusive discount!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, some of which are clean fast friendly for free. Yes, for free, plus I have a very exciting announcement. An incredibly popular LMNT flavor is back. The more I research and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency.

Athletes, for example, can lose up to 7 g of sodium per day and if that sodium is not replaced, it is very common to experience muscle cramps and fatigue. But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone, whether it's after a few glasses of wine, oh hey, keeping an active lifestyle, or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key. That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing, so many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that and it contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

Also, super exciting announcement, friends. One of LMNTs most popular flavors is back. Starting May 25th, you can get LMNT’s grapefruit salt. It is the perfect way to balance the summer heat. Consider it your ultimate summer salt companion. You can mix it up in tasty summer recipes, energize your adventures, and most importantly, enjoy your health. Friends, this flavor is popular. It goes fast, so make sure to grab it once it's available, which is starting May 25th.

And of course, we have an incredible offer to go with that. Members of our community will get a free LMNT sample pack with eight flavors with any order when they order at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, that's drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. So, grab your LMNT order, grab that grapefruit flavor, and get your free sample pack. Now is the time. And of course, you can try this completely risk-free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and LMNT will give you your money back, no questions asked, you have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast for your free gift and grab that grapefruit salt flavor now. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Hi, friends. Are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina, and new customers can use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off sitewide. That's CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off sitewide. Definitely get on our Clean Beauty email list for all the latest special sales and updates. And I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. Mine is at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty and Vanessa's is ketogenicgirl.com/cleanbeauty. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, just go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off sitewide for new customers. beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi everyone. I'm so excited for today's episode.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I'm excited. I started reading your book, which I am embarrassed to say I hadn't actually read yet and I am loving it.

Vanessa Spina: I'm reading yours for your interview on my podcast next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm reading yours for your interview on my podcast in a few weeks. We match. That's so exciting. So, you were a vegetarian for a long time?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, when I was 16, it was more toward 17, I just suddenly decided to become a vegetarian. And it wasn't until I started keto, which was like in my early 30s, I was like, I guess I'm going to go back to eating animal products but fully because a few years before then, my naturopath in Vancouver, I had been going to see him for a while because I had such low energy levels. I didn't feel good in my body at all. I realized later my body composition was getting really poor and he was a full vegan. There're a lot of vegetarian people. It's a huge community in Vancouver.

He looked at me straight in the eyes. He's like, "I think you should start eating animals again." [laughs] And I was like, "Whoa," this is my vegetarian or vegan doctor telling me. And he's like, "Just start eating some fish, chicken, and turkey, just do like poultry." And I immediately started feeling better. And that's like when I started getting into intermittent fasting and keto and everything. I felt the more iron-rich food, the more nutrient-dense food I was eating, the better I felt, my energy levels started coming back. Then most of my adult life I was vegetarian. So, it was a huge, huge change.

Melanie Avalon: Because you thought it was healthy or was it an ethical choice or what was the reasoning?

Vanessa Spina: For first becoming vegetarian?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: It was partly because I loved animals so much and partly because I thought it would be a good way to lose weight. I think a lot of people go vegetarian or plan -based because they're drawn to that aspect of it. I thought it would be an easy way to maintain weight as well. So, it seemed like the perfect combination. There's also this virtue that you feel when you're vegetarian. It's almost like a religious feeling; you feel so virtuous that you're doing such good things for the planet. And it wasn't until many years later that I realized that there's no diet that's completely death free as virtuous as being vegetarian or vegan made me feel at the time.

I had a lot of bad facts and misinformation about it. I applaud anyone who chooses to make that decision for themselves. But my opinion on it now is that it's a privilege to be able to do a vegan diet, especially, which I did for a long time, and a vegetarian diet in a proper way with enough nutritional supplementation. And it really disadvantages people who are below the poverty level or who live in countries where it's almost impossible to get the kinds of supplements that you need when you're a vegan or vegetarian. To deny those things, I think, to people who are struggling because of some moral or ethical principle. I have a lot of problems with it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel really similar.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. What's your background?

Melanie Avalon: I think, I may be tried vegetarian for like a week. [laughs] I was like, this is not for me.

Vanessa Spina: That's was like, my husband, he tried it for, like, an afternoon. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I eat a very, very high animal protein diet, and I have for years and years, and years. First of all, I really do support people finding the diet that works for them like you do you. I just get so over the dietary wars and-

Vanessa Spina: Ah, so over it.

Melanie Avalon: -the virtue signaling that goes with it, especially because I think there's like you said, there's a lot of misunderstanding, but with a lot of aspects of it. The privilege, I do think is a big piece. And also, there's just a lot of debate about especially like the environmental concerns. There's a lot of nuance and complexity there that it's confusing because you can read either side and walk away very convinced. So, it's hard to know what's actually happening. I do really love Robb Wolf's book Sacred Cow. Have you read that book?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I interviewed him about it a couple of years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I love. We should have him on the show.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that would be awesome.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to email him about something random anyways, so I think I'll invite him back on. Would you be down?

Vanessa Spina: Of course. I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: I love that man. I've been following him for so long-- for listeners, literally, we were talking about origin stories last episode. Robb Wolf is the reason I started doing the paleo diet. He's had a huge effect on my life. But yeah, so, yeah, long story short, I think it's very complicated and nuanced and I do think it can be really hard for people to get enough protein and nutrition, especially on like, a vegan diet. But I also respect and I also respect people for their decisions and choices.

Vanessa Spina: Can I mention there's a really interesting paper that just came out. These researchers in Animal Frontiers, they said that what's really interesting is that the link between red meat and disease is almost eradicated when you combine it with a healthy diet. And it's really actually they're suggesting that it's really the rest of the diet that is the cause behind the health issues. Like, often the red meat is blamed. And it's a really interesting article. They're saying 1000 academic scientists are saying that meat and animal protein is crucial for human health and they're calling for an end to the zealotry pushing vegetarian and vegan diets. Speaking of Sacred Cow there's, almost 1000 academics from leading universities around the world signed an initiative that argues that livestock farming is too important to become the victim of zealotry. And they published in the Academic Journal Animal Frontiers as a part of a collaboration with professional animal science societies and dozens of experts.

And they looked at these claims saying that eating red meat causes diseases as well as being harmful for the planet. The people that they're really the most concerned with is the people who, like I was saying earlier, are below the poverty line. Or people who live in poor communities that have a low meat intake, they can't afford to have meat, or they're discouraged from eating meat. Like, a lot of schools are instituting, like, meatless days in the schools.

Melanie Avalon: Meatless Mondays.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's like that may be the only time that people from those communities actually get animal protein. These communities often suffer from a lot of nutrient deficiencies and diseases related to that, like stunted growth, wasting, and anemia. And this was reported in the Telegraph. Animal protein is responsible for providing B12 vitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, minerals, iron, and zinc in addition to organ meats, which we don't even talk about in here.

But I think that they were saying that if you remove fresh meat and dairy from diets, it would lead to more human harm. Women, children, elderly, and people who live on low income would be particularly negatively impacted. And foods that are derived from livestock, they provide a variety of essential nutrients and other health-promoting compounds which are lacking in diets, even among the populations with higher income.

So, well-resourced people, they might be able to achieve adequate nutrition while heavily restricting meat, dairy, and eggs in a vegan scenario. But this approach is not something that should be recommended for everyone. I think they're trying to fight back or push back a little bit on some of the zealotry. I'm not saying that every vegetarian or vegan is a zealot. Like, I was a vegetarian myself for most of my adult life and I don't think I was as zealot about it. Now that I've learned so much more about the bioavailability and nutrient density in animal protein and how animal proteins have amino acids that are made for us and plants have amino acids that are made for plants. Although if you can afford to, you can supplement and you can do a vegan or vegetarian diet well. But if you are below the poverty line, it's going to be near impossible and your health is probably more likely to suffer.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. Yeah, the concept of the healthy user bias, I think, is so important and it's not exactly the same thing, but it's what you were talking about with the diet that maybe it's not the red meat that's the problem, it's the other things with it. And so that's the idea. And I think there's been quite a few studies on this with the healthy user bias. I remember there was one study where they looked at-- they basically, I would have to find it. The way they did it was they looked at people who shopped at Whole Foods or certain grocery stores versus not and their red meat consumption and how it affected outcomes. And all of the health issues with red meat just are gone when you take into account the whole context of the person. And then on the environmental side, Robb Wolf makes a really good case in Sacred Cow that a completely plant-based system would just wreck the planet. I mean, he makes a very compelling case for that. It's not the natural ecosystem of the world. And yeah, just read the book.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so happy that he's out there with I think his co-author was Diana Rodgers. I'm so happy that she's out there, that Robb is out there speaking about this, and he's doing such a good job with it, just to understand the power of regenerative agriculture. And I don't know why farming has been-- it seems like farming has been under attack in the last year or two. And it's really sad to see because we need agriculture. We need regenerative agriculture so much and livestock and it's just all a part of this greater good for the planet like you were saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think we're so disconnected from our food, and I say this as a disconnected person. I haven't even gone hunting, so I don't have that experience of what goes into that system and ultimately manifests as food on my plate. I think we're just so disconnected. And I don't know, we don't really-- and I'm tiptoeing a little bit, but I feel like we often think of, especially in the US, like the Native American culture, as being something that was really in tune with the land and really connected and we idealized that. They were definitely not plant based. They had, like, a connection with the land and the animals and understood that it was like a circle of life type thing. I feel like I'm being esoteric right now, but I do think that we just waltz around in this land of ideals without understanding the practical implications of things and unintended consequences.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I think human suffering is also an important factor. And I know for myself, I was suffering a lot when I was denying myself animal protein, especially with my health and my body composition. And even though I had resources to supplement. Since making the change and going back to including animal protein in my diet, I'm not suffering on that same level anymore. My body composition is great and I feel like I'm effortlessly lean now from incorporating an optimal amount of protein and really nutrient-dense food. And I really think beef is a superfood. Salmon is a superfood. Why are we always talking about blueberries and kale and spinach? The real superfoods are animal proteins. And I agree we're very disconnected, but I think that it's really important to make sure to include foods that have a lot of high biological value of protein and bioavailability and absorption. It's going to reduce human suffering, which I think is an important factor as well.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. Also, this might seem a little like woo woo, but ever since I started growing my own cucumbers in my apartment, which I am looking at right now. Which I love.

Vanessa Spina: That is the cutest thing ever.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know about my cucumbers in my apartment?

Vanessa Spina: I did not know that you were growing them. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Vanessa, it's a thing.

Vanessa Spina: I think, I need to start too, because cucumbers are my number one plant food.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, wait. Okay. So. Have you heard of AeroGarden?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've seen it with tomatoes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I am obsessed. I have five units. They come in all different sizes, but the two really big ones that I have, I think it's called, like, the Farm XL. That's the one. It's about, I'm so bad at gauging height. It's probably 4ft high. You can grow tomatoes, cucumbers. So, I grow cucumbers and it's right by the window and they grow up my window panes. So, they grow, like, all the way up. I mean they grow high. And it's funny when I first started doing it, it's so crazy. "Okay, Vanessa, you have to grow cucumbers." Because they're so cute. They have these little tendrils to grab onto things. So, they go and they grab onto the windows and they wave their way up things. When it first started, the cucumbers started trying to grow onto the windows, and I was like, "Stop." And I would, like, pull them away and try to make them stay in their little farm, and I just let them do their thing. So, they go up, like, 10ft. The point is you would love it so much.

Vanessa Spina: I need to do it because I'm obsessed with cucumbers. Like, large, normal-sized cucumbers and small cucumbers or pickles. Like, when I discovered that pickles were small cucumbers, I was like, "Oh, my God, this makes so much sense." They're like my two favorite plant foods. One is just a smaller version. So, I would love to actually do that. Pete's been wanting to do plant boxes in our garden.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, outside?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, like, you set up a box and you fill it with soil. So, I think maybe we should do it this summer--cucumbers. I just always thought, how could I keep up with my demand for cucumbers? Because also, Luca loves them too. So, yeah, we go through a lot of them. Like, I'm constantly peeling cucumbers.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, I buy, like, pounds and pounds of cucumbers. And I get asked so often, people on Instagram will DM me all the time. They're like, what do you do with those cucumbers? I just eat them because I go to Costco and I buy, like a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked, how do you eat them and how long does it take you to eat those? Because I'll buy probably like let's see. I'll buy like 50 at a time, the really big ones, and I eat them pretty fast.

Vanessa Spina: I love that. I use them for everything. Like, when people-- when I was like, I used to make my turkey or chicken liver pâté all the time on my Instagram stories, and the number one question I would get is, "What do you eat this with?" And I'm like, "Well, you can do pork rinds or cucumbers and make amazing crackers. Whenever we have people over, dehydrate them, we have people over. Just fresh cucumber slices make an amazing cracker because it balances out, I guess, the texture of the pâté. But you can also use them for other things, like a salmon dip or like if you make any kinds of dips or things. It's actually quite nice to have a cracker that's not super dry, but it works so well just for a delivery device for pate or dips or things. Cucumbers are amazing. They're so refreshing. They're so packed with water and yeah, I'm a huge fan. I'm going to start growing them to you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, just really quick to that point. The reason I started eating them. So, I love drinking wine, obviously, and so I wanted to find something to munch on while drinking wine, like before my actual meal. And so, I started with lettuce. I would like, just eat lettuce plain. I was like, lettuce pairs so well with wine because it's hydrating. I can munch on something. It's like a nice little snack. I know that sounds crazy and I sound like a rabbit. It was fun. But in any case, I realized I was like, allergic. I don't know if I was allergic to the lettuce or like, maybe some of the I don't know, whatever they spray on it. I started getting psoriasis on my hands. I realized it was probably contact dermatitis from the lettuce, like, mind blown. So, I stopped. I was like I got to find something else. And so, that's when I found cucumbers and I never looked back.

Vanessa Spina: What was your favorite lettuce? Mine is iceberg. And I love, I could just have like-- I'll do like, salmon sashimi and I make the Japanese like ginger dressing and cucumbers and iceberg lettuce. It's so good. But sometimes I find that I don't handle the lettuce as well. And there's been a lot of, like, negative press in the last few years about lettuce as well. People always think that you get bacterial infections and things from eating meat, but a lot of times it's actually lettuce. I think it was a year before last, there were three deaths from E. coli and lettuce and stuff. So, I don't know what's going on with it, but I definitely haven't been having it as much as I used to.

Melanie Avalon: If you want to talk about controversy and I won't tell the whole story because it's a tangent, I would just say listeners, look up the history of why. Look up the history of milk production and raw milk and pasteurization.

Vanessa Spina: Bill Schindler?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Mind Blown. We both interviewed him.

Vanessa Spina: I think we must have both interviewed him. I remember listening to the interview you did with him. It was really, really good. And I loved having him on the podcast. I loved his book. He's one of my top 10 favorite guests. And just in terms of class and humility and kindness, he's just brilliant and so, so down to earth and nice. And I learned so much from him.

Melanie Avalon: Same. He's amazing. One of my favorite episodes. There's just so much shocking stuff there's A-- [crosstalk]

Vanessa Spina: Really disturbing.

Melanie Avalon: It's like, really, really disturbing stuff in the milk industry that was happening, and then I mean, disgusting stuff. And then on the flipside, the demonization of raw milk, he puts the stats of how many illnesses there's been contributed or deaths to raw milk compared to-- I mean, it's just shocking. It's almost nonexistent. And one of the top causes of death now is over-the-counter medication and stuff or yeah, but it's just crazy.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Accidental deaths. I think it's like number three or number four is like accidental deaths from healthcare.

Melanie Avalon: I could be wrong. I thought complications in hospitals was number one. I don't know if it's number one or number two. It's up there. It's really high. I'm going to bring this party home. The reason I brought up the cucumbers because I got to come full circle, is because when I started growing cucumbers the first time, well, A, I was like these things are alive. Like, these things are alive. Like, they've got, like, not thoughts, but they're like [laughs] alive. Like, they're like they have personality. And the first time I picked my own cucumbers, I was like, I feel like I'm eating something, like, not conscious, but it was an experience of, how do I wrap this up? I think plants are very much alive as well as our animals. And so, I find it really interesting and this would be a whole other conversation for another day, but it's like, again, going back to the circle of life, like, the plants die as well when we eat them. I'm just putting that out there. And they were alive.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: And when you eat them, they're alive. I feel like they're still alive when you're eating them. Okay, now I'm done.

Vanessa Spina: It's really interesting you said that. And I don't know if you've ever interviewed Dr. Gerald Pollack. I think he's one of the most brilliant yeah, he's absolutely brilliant paradigm-shifting scientist. But he discovered exclusion zone water and he believes that one of the best things we can do for our health is to eat foods that have a lot of water in them because plant foods that have a lot of water. He says that some of it is exclusion zone water that's made in the plant. So, I think there's, like, a vitality or something. I get what you're saying about eating, like, a fresh cucumber, but I think it's hilarious that we both love them so much.

Melanie Avalon: I just feel like not that plants are sentient, but if you think about-- I mean, they signal to each other things. I don't know. You can go down rabbit holes.

Vanessa Spina: I'm just picturing you, like, petting the cucumbers and like telling them compliments and like "Your tendrils are looking so beautiful today."

Melanie Avalon: No, I talk to them. I, like, play music for them. They like Lana Del Rey. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Okay. My goal is to grow at least one cucumber by the end of the summer.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, get an AeroGarden. We'll do it outside for sure. But if you get an AeroGarden, you can do it indoors, and it takes care of itself. And Luca can, like, play with them.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that'd be a fun educational project for him actually.

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So, on that note. [laughs] Shall we get into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. We have our first question from Alyssa, and the subject is probiotics and supplements. I know there are a lot of benefits to a probiotic supplement. When do you all recommend taking a probiotic or any other supplement?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I totally missed that she also had any other supplement. That's a big question. I did research for just for probiotics. This is really interesting because I thought that there would have been like, when I sat down to research this. And I had researched it historically, I thought there would be a ton of studies. I was like, "Oh, this will be easy." I couldn't find that many. There are not many studies looking at the timing of probiotics, which is very interesting. I did find a really good one. This was published in-- it was a while ago, though. It was 2011. And what's interesting, though, is I did find another article or journal or something talking about probiotics. And I was like, "Oh, another source." But then it was just referencing this one. I hate it when that happens. Like, I think I found something new. But then it's all just going back to this one thing.

This study was called "The impact of meals on a probiotic during transit through a model of the human upper gastrointestinal tract." It was published in Beneficial Microbes. And what they did was they looked at a probiotic that contained four different strains of probiotics. And I wonder if I should define probiotics. I'm sure most people are familiar with what probiotics are. Basically, they are bacteria, microorganisms that can beneficially modulate our own GI system. And some of them are natural to humans. So, some of them are like naturally in our system. Some are actually not natural, but still natural. And what I mean by that is like the lactobacilli strain, for example, that's often found in dairy products. It's normally a member of the human GI tract, but it's not actually from us, like we have to get it from food compared to the Bifidobacteria most people tend to have that if that makes sense. It's a really subtle nuance, but there is a slight difference there.

Then, of course, there's the whole strain of gut microbiome bacteria that we have that we can't get from probiotics. Also, and I'll circle back to this, probiotics, there's a thesis surrounding dead versus living probiotics because studies have actually found that dead probiotics can still have a beneficial effect on our health, which is really, really interesting. I've been fascinated by that. But what's really interesting about that is so I actually found a study by Professor Colin Hill and he has a paper talking about the definition of probiotics. That study is called The International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics Consensus Statement on the Scope and Appropriate Use of the Term Probiotic, that's a really funny title, that was last updated in May 2023. But he actually makes the case that a probiotic must be alive when administered, otherwise, it doesn't count as a probiotic.

And I think that's really important to keep in mind because if we do see that dead probiotics are having a beneficial effect, we might think, "Oh, it doesn't really matter if they're alive or not because they can be dead and we'll still see a beneficial effect." It's probably different not different mechanisms of action. But if it's a dead probiotic, basically you're still having an immune response to it. And so that might be a reason that there's a beneficial effect. But we're probably getting benefits from alive probiotics in and of themselves, so there's probably something to that.

So, coming back to the study, they looked at two different types of lactobacilli as well as a type of Bifidobacterium that I just mentioned, and then also Saccharomyces boulardii. And they put the probiotics they gave them to the participants at different times either before or after a meal. They also gave it with different things. So, like milk versus milk with oatmeal versus apple juice or water. Some of the takeaways they found was that they found that probiotics given after the meal did not survive as well as probiotics given before the meal. An exception was Saccharomyces boulardii was not affected by the meal timing or what you had it with. And Saccharomyces boulardii is actually a yeast, it's not a bacteria. And interestingly, in interviewing Izabella Wentz for her new book on Adrenal Fatigue, she talks a lot about the benefits of Saccharomyces boulardii. But then they also found that probably better to take it before and then as far as what to have it with. Lactobacillus strains seemed to do better when they were in the presence of glucose. And they think that might be because they actually use glucose as a source of fuel.

So, that's why it probably did better when they were with the milk and the milk and oats, oh wait. They also found that protein content of the meal in particular didn't really seem to affect anything, didn't really seem to affect survival rate, and that fat did seem to have a beneficial effect. So, their conclusion was for non-enteric-coated bacteria probiotics. And so, to clarify, some probiotics come in enteric coatings and those actually help the probiotics survive the harsh conditions of the GI tract.

So, for ones not in enteric coatings, it's probably best to take them just prior to a meal or with a meal containing some fats. And my thoughts on all of this is that-- I like to think about it from sort of like an evolutionary perspective. So, how were we getting these beneficial microbes in the natural world? So, lactobacillus and such we would get from obviously milk and dairy products. That like is the food, it's with the food and then the Bifidobacterium and stuff. Also, I feel like it would be when we're eating. To me, it makes sense that it would be like right before a meal with a meal compared to afterwards.

The long story short, I personally when I take probiotics and throughout my life, I've taken a lot of different ones and I usually take them right at the start of the meal. And then I did find one other study. It was called effect of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Bifidobacterium longum on the healthy gut microbiota composition at phyla and species level. This is a 2017 study. They did one month of administration of both of those bacteria, the Bifidobacterium longum and the Lactobacillus rhamnosus. And they found that in both the preprandial and the postprandial groups. So, they were comparing before and after that both of them led to a significant increase within the study participants of their gut bacteria. So, they basically found that both strains were able to colonize the gut taken before or after a meal. All of that to say, I would take it with meals err on the side of earlier. Just know that there's not a ton of data out there. I thought there would be more. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I think you covered the question so well. I love the recommendation of taking it with meals. I'm a little bit skeptical about probiotic supplements because of our stomach acid kills off so much of it, as you mentioned. And if you are taking a probiotic, please make sure that it has enteric coating because if it just has a vegetable capsule, it will just dissolve in your stomach acid. Our stomach acid is like 1.2 to 2 pH. It could dissolve almost anything. So, I also know that, although I'm more so a fan of getting probiotics from whole foods like yogurt, fermented foods, I think especially fermented foods, some of that can also be killed off by stomach acid. So, it might be beneficial to supplement actually in that case with a probiotic that has an enteric coating.

I'm also a little bit skeptical because I've heard from different experts that people have been taking so many probiotics now that it's actually causing more so the opposite problem of bacterial overgrowth in the intestines, like things like SIBO issues like that. But I'm definitely not an unexpert in probiotics and gut bacteria. I think there's so much that we don't know and that we're still learning about. So, it'll probably be more beneficial to supplement with some kind of probiotic if that's something that you want to do. I personally am not supplementing with one right now.

I get probiotics through fermented foods and through yogurt, which is also a fermented food and that seems to be working for me right now. I also believe that your gut microbiome naturally shifts and adapts to your diet, which is really fascinating. Like they've done research where people who are eating carnivore diets, they have a completely different microbiome that's shifted to just helping you process just animal protein. It's so fascinating, endlessly fascinating. But I think that the research that you looked at, on the timing of it just answered the question perfectly. So, those are just some of my opinions.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you brought that up about the stomach acid and interestingly. So, in one of those studies that I was talking about, they talked about that specifically and it's the lactobacillus strain, which is one that people often have fermented dairy for. They're actually intrinsically resistant to acid, particularly in the presence of glucose. I think a takeaway for that is, if you're having a fermented dairy product which would have a little bit of glucose from the carbs, it's possible that that is surviving. So, I think if people are having fermented dairy that maybe that condition sets it up to survive the journey naturally, like the natural probiotic. I agree. I just think it's just a huge ocean. We just don't even know what all is happening and I think a lot of people do. I mean, I personally had small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which is like the bane of my existence. It's all confusing. And I definitely think I'm so glad you emphasized the role of real foods because I think a lot of people turn to pills as like a fix all and I think starting with diet is key.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and there's something to be said about I'm a big fan of intuitive eating, not in the sense of how it's typically used, but in the sense of connecting to your body and listening and paying attention to your cravings and what you are particularly inclined to eat. And I'm a huge fan of yogurt and dairy in general for improving body composition. It's an excellent source of protein, it's an excellent source of calcium, and it's also got probiotics in it. So, I'm a huge, huge fan of fermented dairy and it's so great to learn that it's particularly resistant to stomach acid.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken soil-based probiotics before?

Vanessa Spina: I haven’t. I know there's a lot of buzz about them, but I haven't tried that yet.

Melanie Avalon: I have in the past. I've tried all different things in the past. Something else to consider too is some probiotic strains are more histamine-producing than others. People who have histamine overload issues might benefit from low histamine strains. So, lactobacillus is known to be higher in histamine.

Vanessa Spina: I think it would be super beneficial and I know that you and I think Gin have talked in the past about this maybe, really beneficial to get an assessment of what's going on in your gut and see what experts think of the strains that you have. Some of the most fascinating research that studies the actual types of gut microbiota have found that humans and animals that have a higher amount of Firmicutes bacteria tend to be more obese and those who have a higher amount of Bacteroides are just naturally more lean.

And I think there've been studies done with fecal transplants and that kind bypasses the whole stomach acid issue as well. But I think that there's a lot that we could potentially learn from that because I think there's actually studies where they did transplant the bacteria and the obese mice became lean when they had more Bacteroidetes. I mean, imagine if it was that simple that it was just like, "Oh, you've got the wrong gut microbiome ratio Firmicutes to Bacteroides. So, I think it's a really promising area of research.

Melanie Avalon: I think this is huge, especially people debate, like, calories in versus calories out. A different person with a different gut microbiome, they could eat a certain food and because of their gut microbiome, the gut microbiome could determine how many calories they extract from that food and ultimately store. It's sort of like there's some indigenous tribe where they ate, like, a really high bulk plant diet. Their gut microbiome specifically can pull more calories from that in a way. There's just so many factors involved with weight loss and weight gain, and I think the microbiome is a huge part of that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm exciting to see what the research discovers in the next decades.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I feel like we probably shouldn't answer because you also want to know supplements in general, but that's just, yeah, there're a lot of supplements. So, if you would like to know about a specific supplement, Alyssa, definitely write us back and we'll address it.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, friends. This episode is brought to you in part by AG1. Some of our listeners have really had wonderful experiences with AG1 and we wanted to highlight some of them on the show. Laurie says I like them. "My husband also takes it and for someone who doesn't like to take a pill-formed supplement, it is perfect for him. I like all the vitamins, pro and prebiotics, adaptogens, and much more than what AG1 offers. And the taste is pretty good. I can take it alone or with water or I'll even put it in my vanilla protein shake. Yes, it is pricey, but it's worth it for me." I love getting to highlight some of our listeners own experiences using Athletic Greens. If you would like to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. All right, now back to our show.

Our next question is from Grace and it comes to us from Facebook and she asks, "What's your favorite black coffee brand? I'm ready to try some other things besides Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, Folgers, and Maxwell. I would love your personal recs." Kindly, Grace.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, coffee. I'm excited to talk about this. I know we talked about this a little bit before. Do you drink coffee in the mornings?

Vanessa Spina: I usually do. The last month and a half, I have gone off coffee and I'm just doing ginger tea, but I am a huge coffee fan.

Melanie Avalon: How historically, did you ever, like, what was the most coffee you were drinking? Did you go through really intense coffee times in your life?

Vanessa Spina: I only ever did, I never drank coffee except for when I was in university because I had to stay up all night sometimes to study. And then I never drank it. And then when we moved to Prague, it was the hottest summer on record and we had this like 40 Celsius day. I'm sorry, I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but it's like, can't think hot. And we had some friends visiting and went to this cafe and I was like just bring me anything with ice in it. And they brought me an iced coffee. And it was the most delicious thing that I had ever had. So, I've been learning about coffee since then. So, I definitely want to chime in on this after you answer because I have a bit of a different take, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it. Okay. The times I was drinking the most coffee was definitely in college. And I shudder thinking about how much-- like how was I sur-- how did I not just kill me? [laughs] So, I drank a ton in college. And then after graduating, I did the Bulletproof coffee for a little bit. Did you go-- oh, no, you did, because you talked about it in your book.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it was a part of the keto craze.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Did you do like butter or MCT oil? What would you do?

Vanessa Spina: I was more the MCT oil or the powdered MCT. And I really like that combination. I still do it sometimes, actually. I have powdered MCT that I still put in my coffee sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, when I do that, it makes me really hungry. Interestingly.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I haven't noticed that. I usually find that it has a warming effect and interestingly, especially in the abdomen, because I think it has a thermic effect and it's signaling the mitochondria. So, I've been experimenting with it off and on in the last couple of years to see what happens. But yeah, MCT has really interesting reactions in people.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it definitely does.

Vanessa Spina: Do you do the butter?

Melanie Avalon: When I first did it, I read going back to origin stories, I'm trying to remember if I read Dave Asprey's The Bulletproof Diet book first or if I was listening to his podcast. I just remember in 2012 when I first discovered paleo with Robb Wolf. Also, around that time, I was finding Dave Asprey's stuff and I printed out his Bulletproof diet from his chart. Actually, I think it was like on his website. I printed it out and I made this thing on my refrigerator and I made it like Mulan themed because her transformation scene. So, I put all these Mulan stickers and I was like, "I'm going to do the Bulletproof diet." It was like a thing because you know the opening scene in Mulan where she like.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, [laughs] that's so cute, oh my God.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, good times. And so that's when I was experimenting with Bulletproof coffee. And I would put-- I would get the grass-fed, like, Kerrygold butter and do it. Yeah, it was fun. It was a fun time. That's when I started getting really cognizant of the role of clean coffee. Mostly because of how much Dave talked about it with like mold exposure. So, I started drinking Bulletproof Coffee, the brand, because he was just so intense about mycotoxins in coffee and his own mold exposure experience. And then the irony, the utter irony of all this is this is the time period that I was living in a mold-infested apartment and didn't realize it. And I really think that that did a huge number on my health. But in any case, so I've been drinking the Bulletproof brand since then, so over a decade because I trust him with it basically.

I have recently switched though because as of like a few weeks ago and I think I talked about this on a recent episode. I don't know if he sold the Bulletproof brand. I'm not sure what happened. Something happened. It's no longer his brand. So, he has a new coffee called Danger Coffee. And I just received it and it's a remineralized coffee, which is super cool because coffee can be-- like it can be demineralizing, I believe. And so, it has added minerals in it. I am loving it. And what's really interesting is I hadn't heard about it until I read his new book, Smarter Not Harder, and then interviewed him. I talked about in my Facebook group and I got a lot of comments from people who love it. And people were asking for coupon codes. So, that's my new coffee brand. You can actually get a discount if you go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. I think it would actually make a really good present for people because it is a little bit on the pricier side. So, this would actually be a really good present for people. It's funny, one of my assistants randomly was emailing me. She was like if you ever need birthday gift suggestions, I would love some Danger Coffee. Okay, I got you covered.

All that to say last thing about the coffee and then I'm dying to hear your experience. I literally just have like a sip of coffee now every morning. I basically don't drink a lot. I cold brew it. I leave it in the fridge all week and then I just have a little bit in the morning. And then I also splash it on my face. Do you do that? I don't know why I asked it like you would like because I feel like nobody does this.

Vanessa Spina: This sounds like a Melanie thing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because there're all these skin products and they're like tightening. And I realized that caffeine is often a compound in them and/or there're all these like face products where it's like with coffee. And so, I had a moment one day, I was like, I'm just going to put coffee on my skin and it works so well. I wash my face and then I just splash it all over and I feel like I probably absorb some of the caffeine through the skin. I need to research that a little bit, but it's tightening. I feel like I get the antioxidants. I mean, I'm sure I get the antioxidants.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, some people do coffee enemas, like you're putting it on your face.

Melanie Avalon: I do those too.

Vanessa Spina: I figured.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: I've heard about them a lot, like in clinics and stuff. But I'm a huge fan of coffee because as a sport nutrition specialist and someone who studies biochemistry, it's one of the only scientifically validated supplements that is effective. And it's effective for a lot of things. It's an ergogenic performance aid, so it's wonderful for performance if you're an athlete. It's also wonderful for fat burning and lipolysis because caffeine stimulates adrenaline and noradrenaline or epinephrine and norepinephrine to be released into the bloodstream, which then can dock on the receptors on fat cells, the beta-adrenergic receptors on fat cells, which then releases fat into the bloodstream.

So, it's a fat burner and it's why all those fat burner pills and things, which I definitely discourage, but they always contain caffeine because it's scientifically backed ergogenic performance aid and also a fat burner. So, I love it for a lot of reasons. I really got into it, like I said when I had it in Europe, and I think it's because the coffee is better here. I don't know what it is, but I think my recommendation, and this is not going to be for everyone, but I started noticing that I enjoy the coffee when I'm in Europe. I don't enjoy it as much when we're in the US or Canada and I think it's the way that they process it here. So, they have really good machines. Several years ago, I invested in a home-like Barista coffeemaker and I have found that it doesn't really matter so much which coffee beans you're using, because if you look the ingredients on all the different brands, they're all using the same thing. It's like Arabica or what is it called? The actual coffee beans. It's all the same.

And Pete and I have gone to actual coffee farms in Tanzania and spice farms and it's just all the same beans going to different brands, factories with different packaging, right? But they all have the same beans. So, I think what it comes down to is how it's processed because I have a home office, I invested in this, and Pete and I use it every day. And it basically you put the coffee beans, like in the hopper in the top and then it grinds them. So, it's fresh every time you make a coffee. It grinds them, grinds the beans. The beans stay fresh because they're in an insulated chamber, so you're getting fresh coffee each time, freshly ground, which you could also just do at home with a coffee grinder. And then it's being put into the actual machinery which at high pressure extracts all the oils and things.

And I make a coffee with a couple of shots of espresso and then add hot water. And it's so good, it just hits in all the right ways and it's just like the right amount of bitterness, the right amount of oils everything. And it doesn't really matter the kind of beans that I put in there. I think it's more about the processing. So, that's just my opinion on it. If you're really big into coffee and you're wanting to try something else, maybe sometime in the future I would suggest looking into the way that you're processing it. Are you freshly grinding the beans before you make your own cup and then turning that into coffee?

You don't have to invest in a whole legit setup like, I did because I'm a little bit crazy about my coffee. But I also think coffee is great if you're a busy person because it can help in the morning to just get that BM out of the way and then you can go on with your day. And some people find that's not necessarily good to rely on caffeine for that. But if you're someone who is busy and you're going to be out and about and you want to actually have your bowel movement in your home, it can be really helpful for that as well because it expedites things. So, I like it for so many different reasons and I've been taking a little bit of a break and just noticing because I think it's good to switch things up from time to time and just see how you feel.

And I actually had coffee for the first time in about a month, Sunday and yesterday and it made me a little bit too anxious. So, I think I have to crank down my dose to maybe like one shot because after being off of it for a month, I think my receptors had downregulated a bit. So, it's also just interesting to notice because today I was like I think I just don't want to feel that way today. So, I'm going to just go back to my ginger tea which I've been doing for a month and a half. And I'll probably go back to the coffee but just doing a little bit less expresso shots in it. So, that's all my thoughts on coffee. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I'm glad you brought up. I as well always get the whole beans and grind them myself. I think it's better for freshness. Also going back to the mold and the issues with that, I think that's much less of an issue with the whole beans. And interesting about the anxious reaction. Well first of all, it's really nice when you are not on a high normal dose of caffeine or coffee because it's like a tool in your back pocket where if you have a day where you just have to like, for example, when I was getting my Taylor Swift tickets and I had to wake up at like 08:00 AM., which is not my time, and I was sleep deprived and I had two shows, I pulled out some coffee and it was like bam.

It's like, magical. So, it's nice to have it in your back pocket that way. I do wonder as well if sometimes people getting jittery or side effects from coffee if it is like, the mycotoxins or I mean, it probably is primarily the caffeine if they're not used to it. I get very concerned about nonorganic coffee and the compounds that might be in there. And like Danger Coffee, for example. It's not certified organic, but I trust Dave in producing it and he's really big on the testing. And they even say on the website that they go above and beyond the testing of normal testing standards.

And actually, I've learned a lot about that, creating supplements because we're working on our next one, which I don't know if I'm allowed to announce it yet by the time this comes out probably-- okay so we're working on a chlorella and a spirulina, and it's been really interesting. I'm so excited. We've been looking at different sources for it and some are certified organic and others aren't. But it's like stepping back from that. If we ourselves go and do all the testing on our own, in a way, I trust that more because we can go above and beyond just what the organic certification would assure. So, I love organic. I always err on the side of organic and I think if you really trust the producer, it's possible that there are nonorganic things that could be even better than "organic." So, that's a whole tangent. One last thing, though, to end on. Are you going to come to the Bulletproof Conference with me?

Vanessa Spina: It was so funny because I was talking to Dr. John Limansky today, and he's a really good friend. He's with Heads Up Health and he's known as a biohacking MD, and he's just an amazing person. And he's like, "You know we've been talking about trying to meet up for so long." And he's like, "I'm actually going to be at the biohacking conference." And I was like, "No way. Oh, my gosh." What are the dates again? I feel like at least if it's not this year, it has to be at least next summer. But what are the dates again?

Melanie Avalon: Yes and to answer your text in real life, I don't know him. Vanessa texted me asking me if I knew him. It's June 22nd through June 24th. So, when these airs? It's 10 days away.

Vanessa Spina: June 22nd to July 4th. Wow, that's long.

Melanie Avalon: June. So, June 22nd.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "Whoa, this is like a month-long conference." [laughs] Oh, man.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I was like, Is this like a retreat?

Melanie Avalon: Can you imagine?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's a long time, two, three days max for me at an event like that because you just, like, are interacting with so many people.

Melanie Avalon:" Yes. June 22nd through June 24th. Listeners, please come. I am actually going. This is like mind blowing. This girl does not travel, so come see me if you're there. And I have discounts for people. So, it takes place in Orlando. June 22nd through June 24th. So many speakers, obviously. Dave Asprey, a lot of people I've had on my other show, like Dr. Mercola, Max Lugavere, the BiOptimizers guys, tons of people. Somebody I'm about to interview. I'm really excited about Molly Maloof.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, same.

Melanie Avalon: You're interviewing her, too?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It was supposed to be this month, but it was when we're traveling. So, I think it's going to be early next month, but I'm looking forward to chatting with her. So, that's great. She's going to be at the conference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she's one of the keynote speakers, so I'm really excited about that. I'm excited to finally just meet in real life all these people that I feel like I know it's going to be very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: Conferences are so fun.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't been to one of these, like, a health biohacking keto. I've never been to one.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you're going to love it. And you're going to have to pace yourself because so many people are going to come talk to you and want to get photos with you and everything, take breaks.

Melanie Avalon: I cannot go all day every day. I just can't in this conference situation. So, I'm going to be kind to myself and have boundaries and go to when I am most thriving, which is, like, not early morning. So, I will not be at the early morning speaker things, I'm sorry. But listeners, please come. You can actually get 40% off tickets, which is crazy. Just go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. Use the code M-A-4-0, MA40. And if you do come, Facebook me. Come to my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, or DM me on Instagram. I would love to meet people. It's going to be so fun. Vanessa, we have to manifest going to something at some point.

Vanessa Spina: I know we will. And I'm so excited for when that happens. It'll be so much fun. I know it'll get easier again in the future. Right now, with Luca being so young, I still breastfeed him. So, for me to be a part, it's like we're a unit right now. The three of us we are a unit. So, we either go everywhere together. There's a Biohacking Conference I was invited to in Europe in September, and it's like, either I go by myself and Pete and Luca are on their own or all three of us go together. Pete came with me before when I spoke at a different biohacking event in Finland but it's so different with a one-year-old. So, I know that this is like a season in my life. And I'm enjoying it so much. I never want it to end actually.

But it's not a season where I'm also prioritizing speaking, but I know that season will come around again. So, I am excited to be able to go to events again because they are truly so much fun, like the connections, getting to interact with people so much in real life, because so much of what you and I both do is online and it's also very much like a one-way medium. So, having Facebook groups is so helpful, but when you actually get to connect with everybody in person, it's just the best.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm so excited and I want you to know that I completely support you in the current season of your life. I really want you to come. And I also understand why it's probably not the time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, thank you for understanding, but we'll see.

Melanie Avalon: Completely. I mean, look at me. Like me going, I'm probably just going to go to the evening stuff. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode321. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out.

I think this will be the last time that I mention it. Last chance to enter to win over $500 worth of Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare from Beautycounter, which we love. You can check out the products online at our links, which is beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. But if you write a new Apple Podcast review or update your current Apple Podcast review and include what you're enjoying having Vanessa on the show and then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifppodcast.com, we will enter you to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products.

So, I'm going to make a note of when this airs so I can actually draw a winner shortly after this. Yeah, I think that is all the things. Oh, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. So, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: No. I enjoyed this episode so much. It flew by again in like two minutes and I can't wait for the next one already.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I feel the same way. I'm just having so much fun. So, I will look forward to next week and I will talk to you then.

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you then.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jun 04

Episode 320: Fasting & Hormones, 2022 Fasting Review, Menopausal Women, Androgen Markers, Rodent Studies, Hyperandrogenism, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Optimal Protein Podcast (Fast Keto) with Vanessa Spina: Fasting for Females: Research Review on Hormones and Intermittent Fasting!

Welcome to Episode 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get free ground beef for a year plus $20 off your first box!!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For A Year Plus $20 Off Your First Box!!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Nicole - is fasting good for your hormones. I am hearing that is extremely beneficial for woman nearing and in their 40s+

Effect of Intermittent Fasting on Reproductive Hormone Levels in Females and Males: A Review of Human Trials

Effect of time-restricted eating on sex hormone levels in premenopausal and postmenopausal females

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished beef for a year plus $20 off. Yes, free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught, sustainable, and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency, regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated.

I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all of the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. It's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, "This is honestly one of the best steaks I have ever had in my entire life." On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find?

ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year in every box of your subscription, plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year plus $20 off. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, Melanie. Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you?

Vanessa Spina: Just ecstatic, full of gleed, the usual, every time we get to hang out.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was just thinking about it. I don't know, I'm just so excited. [giggles] It's like going to a party.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, speaking of, I want to hear about this. You went to a musical festival where you burned things?

Vanessa Spina: This is so funny. This is so funny. So, it's a tradition in certain parts of Europe, but especially in Switzerland, Austria, central Europe, and Czech to mark the end of winter by blowing up either a snowman, which is my favorite, because it's just absolutely hilarious. The first time we saw it happen was actually in Switzerland in that big town square. We were just there. We actually just missed it, unfortunately. But they just like to mark the end of winter. They create a big bonfire and they put a snowman on the top of it, and in check, a little bit awkwardly, it's called the witch burning, but it's a tradition of doing the similar thing to the snowman. It's just like marking the end of winter and the end of the spirits of the winter. But I was telling Pete this week, I'm like, "They really need to rebrand the one in Czech," because although it's quite cute, it's like their Halloween.

All the little kids, boys and girls dress up in witches' hats. They all do face painting. So, it's like their Halloween, where we kind of-- Halloween is like our thing with the witches, but they make it into a huge family day. So, on Sunday, we went up. It's a park just above us, at the top of Prague here, and it's all music festival all day with local artists. The kids just have everything, like, face painting, all kinds of activities. There was this one huge play area with just, like, Legos. Oh, there was a giant fire truck, which Luca was so excited about. An ambulance, a school bus, like all his favorite things. He loves service vehicles. So, just getting touch the wheels and do all that stuff was amazing. They had food trucks from everywhere. They had American barbecue, which is what we settled on because it's our favorite. But they had food from all over the world. So, it's like a huge, huge festival. It's like the size of several football fields. And then there's just like food stalls everywhere, music everywhere, and just fun balloons. And then at the end of the day, they do the big bonfire, and it just marks the end of winter and officially beginning of spring and the summer weather.

Melanie Avalon: That is so cool. Can I ask you some questions?

Vanessa Spina: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Wait, first of all, how long have you lived in the Czech Republic?

Vanessa Spina: It's been about six, seven years now. We just came over here to do a year, but we just love it so much that we keep extending it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay. Now I want to interview about this for an hour, which I will not. I'm so intrigued. Okay, so, holidays, what holidays are the same as the US?

Vanessa Spina: Mostly Christmas and Easter. But Easter is huge here. It's two weeks long. It's as big as Christmas and New Year's. And then they actually had a holiday this week on Monday, the May 1st, so right after the Bonfire Day. And then next Monday, they have another holiday. So, it's like May Day. They have their own holidays. So, there's some that don't correlate at all, and then there are the big major Christian holidays, Catholic holidays, I guess that coincide. But yeah, they're all over the place. So, Pete and I like to celebrate the Canadian holidays, the American holidays, and any European holidays that we can get in, because May as well just [giggles] take advantage of living all over the place.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Luca gets all the fun times. So, is that the most major holiday that we don't have here, probably? Is there another really big one like that?

Vanessa Spina: I think this is probably the big one. But what's so cute, I'll have to tell you this is so May 1st on May Day, it's Lovers Day. And so, there's a hill, it's right where we live called Petrin Hill. And the whole hill gets covered in cherry blossoms. It's a tradition that you have to take your lover there and kiss them under the blossoms on May 1st. So, the whole hillside is just full of all these little sweet couples kissing. And Pete and I try to go. We walk through there all the time anyway to get a kiss. And on Monday, we couldn't go because of how the day worked out. And so, he went and brought me flowers home and held them above me and gave me a kiss. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, that's so cute.

Vanessa Spina: It's a really cute holiday, like, Lovers Day. I don't think we have anything like that in North America. So, I think it's pretty unique.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have Valentine's?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. There's Valentine's Day here. They celebrate it like the Hallmark holiday kind of things are coming more, but this one's more pure. It's like, just go get a kiss under some flowers. That's very Czech. They're very boho bohemian, like, hippie style. It's very sweet and very Czech. I'm not Czech at all, but I just appreciate as many different cultures as possible. So, yeah, it's a really cute one where you just kiss the person you love.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, that's so cute. I have one more question, especially because you mentioned the food. Last night, I was reading this really cool blog post about American restaurants and all these different countries, like, how countries view America and these American restaurants. It was pretty funny. They had one in the Czech Republic, actually. Is the food completely different?

Vanessa Spina: It's pretty different. So, the first time I went to Pete's house for Easter, like, a family dinner, they did duck, like, roast duck with cabbage. It's like a sweet-sour cabbage with dumplings and I was like, "What is this?" It was so foreign to me, but I'm so used to it now. There're a lot of dishes that are very Czech or Hungarian or German style. So, you probably are a little bit familiar with your German background, but there's a lot of goulash kind of meals that are really popular in Czech. A lot of sausages, like, sausages with sauerkraut is really big. Obviously, the duck one. Schnitzel is more like the Austrian side, but schnitzel is really big here, which is fried turkey or chicken or sometimes pork that's breaded. It's my husband's favorite meal. So, the food is pretty different. When you have an American style restaurant or an American style food truck, it definitely is a nice treat to get something like get some authentic Texas, like brisket which is really popular in Czech the last few years.

Melanie Avalon: Brisket. Oh, my goodness. It reminds me growing up, because you mentioned Germany, so I have family in Germany. I went over with my dad when I was five, and I just ate, basically bratwurst the whole time. I didn't super love it, but I liked it, because we went a lot. I remember I would go when I was a little bit older, like, eight or nine, and that's when I discovered schnitzel. I remember thinking, "Why did my dad not just get me schnitzel everywhere?" I don't know, I feel like it's much more comparable to American food than bratwurst. It's like fried chicken with cheese.

Vanessa Spina: It's hilarious. Okay, I'm dying to know how the Taylor Swift concert went, because I saw some of your pictures and posts and your messages about how it went, but I need to just know everything.

Melanie Avalon: It was the most amazing experience. I got into the Uber with my sister and almost started crying, like, before I was even there. [laughs] In the Uber, I was like, "Don't cry." But there were so many people. I realized I really like the Swifty audience. They're just all very nice. I was very surprised. I knew it would be very estrogen dominant. I knew it would be a lot of women. I thought there'd be more men, because I thought there'd be girls with their boyfriends. I could count how many men I saw. It was crazy. So, that was interesting. Had you been to a lot of concerts? I feel like I learned things.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we were actually supposed to go to a concert together this month here, but it got canceled. Yeah, I try to go whenever we can. It's something that I miss the most though. I think of having children is, it's just not as easy to go to concerts, because most of them are not child friendly. So, you have to get childcare. It just makes it not as easy. But I actually took Luca to his first classical concert last week, because they did one for babies, which was amazing. But unless it's specifically for kids or if it's outdoors and there's a lawn area, then you can do something like that, which is fun.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the reason I ask, I learned-- I've been to quite a few, but this one was loud, and I really wish--

Vanessa Spina: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was googling this. Did I permanently damage my ears? The night before, I was like, "Oh, maybe I should order--" Did you know they make concert earplugs, like, specific for concerts?

Vanessa Spina: I would totally get some of those, because sometimes you go and the bass is so loud that it's painful. Or, the next day you really feel it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, and there were so many screaming girls. I was screaming. Okay. I had so many out of body experience moments where I watched myself screaming. I didn't [laughs] hear screaming. I was like, "Oh, that's me [laughs] singing along." But in any case, so friends, they make concert earplugs, and I ordered them the night before, and they didn't come in time. And then I brought normal earplugs, and I didn't put them in, and I really, really wish I had because my ears still feel numb, like, I'm a little bit worried. I'm a little bit concerned.

Vanessa Spina: Wait, how many people were there?

Melanie Avalon: The stadium fit 75,000, and I didn't see any open seats. [giggles] I heard this from a friend yesterday, apparently, what people would do-- I don't know if I would do this. This is too much energy for me. If they didn't have tickets, they would dress up, get ready, go and be on their phone on Ticketmaster, and wait for tickets to get released, and then buy them and go in and get them cheap. So, I really don't think there was any emptied seats. But that was a moment, because I know how many listeners we have for this show. So, I was looking at the stadium and I was like, "Oh, I can--" We don't have the whole stadium's worth, but I know a percentage of the stadium that we have. So, that was like a moment. I was like, "Oh, that's how many people listen to this show? It's a lot of people."

Vanessa Spina: I always think about that too when I'm at a big, like, a hockey game or a concert. And sometimes, I'll just google images of certain thousands of people, because it's so hard to visualize those kinds of numbers sometimes. So, I always think about that too. It's amazing how incredible these communities are, and this community is or other podcast communities, it's just so incredible. I think that's part of why I get so giddy, like, not just getting to interact with you, but the caliber of questions that are sent in and the caliber of people listening in this community are just so amazing. [giggles] That's what it made you think of.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so grateful. An extension of that, I feel like Taylor Swift is very grateful. She's so nice [giggles] to the audience.

Vanessa Spina: Your dress was so exquisitely stunning.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's so funny. So, for listeners, if you go on my Instagram, I posted pictures. I posted my tips for the concert, if you want to learn more. Oh, which really, speaking of-- Oh, wait. Yes, I know you have an iPhone, because we do iMessage. Do you know about AE lock on the iPhone?

Vanessa Spina: No. Is this some filming technique?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Okay. So, friends, this is going to help you, if you ever go to a concert, game changer. I realize I might date myself, because stuff changes so fast. But as of right now, when you're having your iPhone, if you hold down, like, when you're taking the video, maybe a picture too, definitely a video. If you hold down where you want to focus, it locks. And then you put your finger to the right of the little box that pops up, and you just drag down or up, and you can change the exposure level, and then it locks that. So, if you want to get really crisp, because what you need to do for concerts, especially for people going to T Swift-- Actually, given how many listeners we have, probably are quite a few going. So, put your finger on Taylor, hold it down, it'll lock. Put your finger to the side, drag the exposure down, it'll be crystal clear, if you're close enough to zoom in like that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you got a really clear video. So, that's a super helpful tip.

Melanie Avalon: That was the key. That was the key. Oh, but just really quick, and then we can get into questions. The dress, it's so funny. It was a really, really intense dress. It was a black corset with this huge tool red thing. So, many people stopped me. My sister and I started counting, but then we stopped counting. I felt famous, because people get me, like, stopping me. People would ask for pictures with me, and then multiple people said they were googling my dress, because they thought it was some secret Taylor Swift dress. "Where's your dress from? We were googling it." I was like, "It's just from Amazon. It's not a secret message." So, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I know. She does those secret messages, and Easter eggs, and stuff, so that I can see how people would have thought that. But yeah, you guys have to go check out Melanie's dress, because it's just amazing.

Melanie Avalon: It was amazing. Wait, but do you like Taylor?

Vanessa Spina: I do. Yeah, I've always loved her music. I feel like I was someone who liked her for a long time. It's been maybe seven or eight years. I feel people now are like, "Oh, she's gotten--" Her popularity has surged recently. Definitely saw that with all the concert drama that happened. People were just trying to get tickets for hours and hours, and it just seems like-- Yeah, she's popped off in the last few years.

Melanie Avalon: Is she going in Europe? I feel like I heard that, but I might have dreamed that.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Maybe I dreamed that. I don't know. Maybe we both did.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. I'm just googling it really quickly.

Vanessa Spina: That would be exciting. I know we have listeners all over Europe too.

Melanie Avalon: I might be thinking of Trans-Siberian Orchestra. That's the other thing I always go to. But yes. So, it was amazing. Although, it would have been more amazing if I had been there with Peter Attia.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, [laughs] that was so funny that he went with his daughter and the outfit that he wore. That was classic. That was classic.

Melanie Avalon: I further appreciate that now, especially going and not seeing any men.

Vanessa Spina: What's your Peter Attia origin story, just before we get into the first question?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness, this is such a fun conversation.

Vanessa Spina: How did you first come across him?

Melanie Avalon: Such a good question, Vanessa. [laughs] What is your Peter Attia origin story? I don't know. Wait, I have to think about this. What is yours?

Vanessa Spina: I know. I can start. I heard him the first time on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and it was at the time when Tim Ferriss was geeking out with Peter Attia about ketones, and ketone esters and how he had been experimenting with them. They tasted like gasoline. And it was around the time that he interviewed Dr. Dom D'Agostino. That was the first time I ever heard him or heard him speak.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. What's very interesting about this is two things. One, I literally I don't remember. And two, I just feel like I've been listening to him for so long. But his podcast, The Drive is not relatively that old, because I've been listening to Robb Wolf since 2012, Dave Asprey since 2012, but The Drive, it's not that old. Yeah, I'm not sure when it started, but I know it's not-- Oh, maybe 2018, maybe?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I guess, three, four years. Maybe it's in its fifth year or something like that. Definitely around the time that we both started podcasting, because we were all so in sync.

Melanie Avalon: True. It's crazy how much we've been in sync with everything and didn't even realize. It might come to me. But I'm going to think about that, because I-- [crosstalk]

Vanessa Spina: Let's put a pin in it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. [laughs] Moving on. Oh, okay. Shall we answer some listener questions? It's going to come to me in the middle of the night. I'm going to be like, "Eureka."

[laughter]

Oh, man. Okay.

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So, to start things off, okay. So, this first question, I'm super excited about this and I picked it for two reasons. Would you like to know what the two reasons are?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, of course.

Melanie Avalon: One, I'm actually interviewing-- Have you interviewed Izabella Wentz?

Vanessa Spina: No, but she sounds like an actress, but she probably isn't.

Melanie Avalon: She has quite a few really big books on Hashimoto's. She wrote Hashimoto's Protocol and she wrote Root Cause, and they're both New York Times bestsellers. So, I've been really familiar with that work for a while. But she has a new book that just came out called Adrenal Transformation Protocol, and it's all about adrenal fatigue, which is, something people debate about whether it exists or not, which I find so interesting.

Vanessa Spina: It's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's really interesting. So, I'm interviewing her tomorrow actually. And so, I've been thinking a lot about fasting and hormones. So, I was like, "Oh, this will be a good thing to dive into a little bit more." And then two more of the reason I put this in here was, you had an excellent interview or episode recently on Optimal Protein Podcast where you talked all about. Was it a new study with women's hormones that came out?

Vanessa Spina: It's a 2022 review and it has some incredible researchers in it, including Krista Varady, who was one of the original researchers that did all the research with Dr. Mark Mattson that first really sparked people's attention when it comes to intermittent fasting. If you heard of 5:2 and all that, she was one of the lead researchers there. So, yeah, it's 2022. So, relatively recent.

Melanie Avalon: Because I was researching it some more last night, and I was looking at another recent Krista Varady's study, but this was one where they found nothing really changed, but DHA was reduced. That's a different study, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, with this one and we can obviously link it in the show notes. But this was last summer of 2022, mid-June, it was called the effect of intermittent fasting on reproductive hormone levels in females and males, a review of human trials. They found that there's, one, so little research done on fasting and hormones, and two, that there's a really big gap like, knowledge gap, research gap in this space. And so, they wanted to do a review of human trials on intermittent fasting and find all the studies that have been done on intermittent fasting, and what happened to women's hormones and also to men's hormones. That's one of the reasons I really like it. Not only is it recent, but it's a review of human trials. Not rodent trials or animal studies, just human trials.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Which month did you say it was?

Vanessa Spina: June 2022.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Yes. So, the study I was looking at last night was October 2022. I have a question for you about reviews. Okay. Because I feel like when people see reviews and I love reviews, and I felt your love of reviews just now in the energy in your voice, they're really a nice way to get a comprehensive picture and look at a lot of studies all at once and see what the trends are actually showing. Because I think we can get caught up in the minutiae of a single study and use it to try to either learn something or maybe prove a point, even. It's hard to see a broader picture. As they say, can't see the forest for the trees type situation. How do you feel though? I always wonder about with reviews, if there's a potential for bias. Because when you read the beginning, they always say what they chose to include and what they didn't include. And so, I feel like if you wanted to make a review and prove a point, all you have to do is decide your criteria to include to go that direction, if you would, maybe. What are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina: Absolutely. I'm a big fan of reviews, but I do think that they can be manipulated, and that's one thing that a lot of people don't realize. So, sometimes people will-- I think it was earlier this year, I remember one of my listeners of the Optimal Protein Podcast was like, "What do you think of this review on intermittent fasting?" It was a negative on intermittent fasting. I actually interviewed Dr. Mark Mattson specifically about that review, and he really opened my eyes, because he said, "Well, you're already familiar with all the intermittent fasting studies that we've talked about." We had already talked about on that interview, and all the beneficial effects they'd had. He's like, "They excluded all of those from this review." So, they took only the studies that had negative results with intermittent fasting and did a review of those basically.

So, I think they definitely can be problematic and they definitely can be used to, like you said, reinforce or make a point. But I do think they can also provide a lot of insight, because like you said, you're aggregating a lot of different studies together. I think you have to look through the ones that they picked, and what they chose to exclude, and why in this review, because there are so few human trials on intermittent fasting, and especially reproductive hormone levels in females and males. I think they included everything that they could find, but I'm probably biased as well towards intermittent fasting. But it's just such an awesome review. I can't wait to dig into it more.

Melanie Avalon: Well, so speaking of, the reason we're talking about all of this is we got a really great question from Nicole and she wanted to know, "Is fasting good for your hormones? I am hearing that it is extremely beneficial for women nearing and in their 40s plus." I will say, before we answer this, so for the duration of the show, when Cynthia Thurlow was the cohost of this show, we did answer a lot of questions about women's hormones. So, actually, friends, listeners, if you go to ifpodcast.com, that's our website, and there is a search feature there. The reason I point this out is because I think people don't really take advantage of it. You can search. And because we have transcripts of all the episodes, it will find pretty much all the episodes where we talked about anything. It's a really comprehensive search. So, you can type in, like, hormones, and it'll come up with all the different episodes where we've talked about it. But in any case, we haven't talked about it yet with Vanessa. And then, like I mentioned, she talked about this really awesome study recently. That study was the takeaway, beneficial or not so beneficial for fasting and women's hormones?

Vanessa Spina: Okay. I loved so many things about it, but I have to start out by saying that it answers your question. It actually is directed to your question, because you're specifically asking about women's hormones and 40s and above. In this research review, they specifically focused on women who were around or nearing menopause, so perimenopausal women. They did specifically focus also on women who have some obesity, but that wasn't the case in every single study. But in general, it does fit the age range. I know perimenopause, it typically starts around 45. I'm not an expert on it like Cynthia was, and I loved all the episodes that you guys did on women, either peri or post menopause, I learned so much from listening to your episodes with Cynthia. It's something that I definitely have in mind for the future.

When it comes to, I think early 40s, in some cases, people go into perimenopause early, but typically the age is around mid-40s. I think it still covers around the age range that you're talking about. So, the review specifically wanted to address this question of whether intermittent fasting is beneficial for women in fasting. They also talked about males. I addressed that on my podcast episode and some issues that I had with it as well. If you want to listen to a full deep dive and breakdown, which is a whole episode just on this one review. But what they wanted to really assess and as I said, they determined that there was this research gap that they wanted to be able to further clarify what the effects are of intermittent fasting, specifically on sex hormones. They found that there's been more and more evidence showing that various intermittent fasting regimens are actually effective for decreasing body weight, improving insulin sensitivity, improving blood pressure, and markers of oxidative stress in adults with obesity, in addition to having a lot of beneficial effects on hormones. They went through every single hormone that is in some way related to female fertility or to even milk production with prolactin they went through, all the androgens.

They have really had two main findings. The first one I just want to mention, because there has been a lot of fear around intermittent fasting and fasting for women. A lot of it comes from one rat study that was done by Kumar et al. and it's one of the ones that a lot of the popular media sites all the time uses, like clickbaity titles and stuff. They did an experiment where they had very young rats, I think they were three months old that did 24 hours of water fasting every other day for 12 weeks. Now, if you extrapolate this to humans, it would be like fasting nine-year-olds for a month, every other month for a year. [giggles] It's such an extreme amount of fasting for rats, because they have such shorter lifespans than we do, and also because they were only three months old.

Fasting is not recommended for children because of all the growth that needs to happen during that time. So, it's a bizarre study. It did contribute to our scientific knowledge, but it's cited all the time, because in that study, it did have some negative effects on women's hormones. They had negative changes in the menstrual cycle, in the blood levels of estradiol, and in luteinizing hormone, which decreased compared to the other control group. So, I just want to mention that they call it out, let's say, in the review and say, this is the reason why there's been a lot of fear around fasting being associated with having negative effects on women's hormones.

Now, what they found in their review is that the opposite is actually true, that intermittent fasting is very beneficial for a lot of different hormones. So, they looked at all the reproductive hormones, they looked at estrogen, at testosterone in women, androgens, gonadotropins, which are all the hormones associated with reproduction, including LH, luteinizing hormone, and prolactin, which is the hormone associated with milk production. I don't want to take the entire episode to go through what they found, but with every single hormone in all of the trials that they looked at, they saw beneficial effects. So, what they found with estradiol that after 12 weeks, women who had PCOS, when their participants front loaded their calories to have more than half of their daily calories at breakfast and before dinner that it had a really beneficial effect for women who have PCOS where they have excess estrogen production in their adipose tissue and their fat tissue. This can actually impair the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis.

So, having too much estrogen and androgens, which are hormones that are more so male hormones, is the primary cause of not ovulating and having when you have PCOS. So, what they found a lot in the review as well is that eating before 04:00 PM had the most benefits, which I think is another big point, because they also brought up some circadian rhythm effects as well. So, they also looked at sex hormone binding globulin, which affects women's fertility, and they found positive results on that. They also looked at lowering androgens, which are the hormones that you don't want to have excess levels of in women, and it had beneficial effects on that. It also had beneficial effects on the gonadotropins, which are all the peptide hormones that regulate our ovarian function and are essential for normal growth, sexual development, and reproduction. So, like, follicle stimulating hormone, FSH, which is secreted right before you ovulate, and luteinizing hormone as well, which peaks on the day that you ovulate.

They found that in previous studies, weight loss reduced this LH and FSH ratio, they call it. But in this trial that they were looking at in this review, they found that young women with obesity and PCOS who did an eight-hour time-restricted eating regimen for five weeks, their LH and FSH levels were unchanged, even though participants lost a small amount of weight and fat mass from baseline. Finally, they found that intermittent fasting was safe, had no negative effects in another study on prolactin levels, which again are the hormones that affect breastfeeding and breast milk production.

So, their overall conclusions were that fasting genuinely decreases the hormones that you don't want to have too high levels of the androgens so, for example, testosterone and FAI, and at the same time, increasing sex hormone binding globulin in premenopausal females with obesity. They really conclude that there's a lot of promise for the use of intermittent fasting in treating women who have hyperandrogenism, conditions like PCOS. They really want to note, especially that a lot of these findings were consistently found when people were eating most of their food at breakfast and lunch. And so, front loading the day is something that's really associated with the most benefits, I think, when it comes to intermittent fasting, or at least finishing eating by around 04:00 PM, especially when it comes to lowering the androgen markers. They also concluded that fasting does not appear to have any negative effect on the reproductive hormones like estrogen, gonadotropins, LH, FSH, and prolactin. And of course, more research is needed to confirm these findings, but I think it's a very extensive review and I thought it was so well done.

Melanie Avalon: That was so incredible. Thank you so much for doing that. How many studies was it a review of, did you say?

Vanessa Spina: So, they had five human trials of time-restricted eating, one human trial of the 5:2 diet, and one study that specifically examined the effects of meal timing on reproductive hormones. So, that's seven.

Melanie Avalon: So, there's about seven?

Vanessa Spina: They excluded cohort and observational studies, fasting performed as a religious practice or Ramadan or Seventh Day Adventist, trials that were less than one week, and studies that combined the data for men and women. They had five human trials of time-restricted eating, one human trial of the 5:2 diet, and one study that examined the effects of meal timing on reproductive hormones. So, that looks like seven. I thought it was eight, unless I'm missing one here.

Melanie Avalon: Does it say how many there originally were and then how many they ended up using?

Vanessa Spina: How many they excluded? Okay, yeah, so they had--

Melanie Avalon: I'm just curious.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. It says the number that they excluded, which was 3, 6, 10. So, there must have been 17 or 18 in total and they excluded 10 based on the fact that they were too short or they combined the data of men and women.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Some things to emphasize from what you were talking about. I think we talked about this recently on another episode. I really just think it's a huge disservice how we use the rodent trials as not in general, because it's a great place to start to look at mechanisms for fasting. Well, women's hormones specifically, but just a lot of things, because I don't know what the equivalent-- What do you think the equivalent would be? I've thought about this a lot, and I don't know if there are any studies that have done this. I'd be really curious. Intermittent fasting, like the way we practice it. So, a 16:8 pattern or a one meal a day. I wonder what that would look like in a rat, like the equivalent?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's so interesting because we've gotten, like you said, so much good data from rodent studies, especially when it comes to life extension and caloric restriction. That was the first big area of research where people started to get really fired up saying, "Well, if we calorically restrict rodents by 30%, they are living so much longer." I don't know if we would have had those findings if it weren't for rodent studies. There're so many other areas that they've contributed to. But again, that's a finding that, like you said, you could look into the mechanisms and also see, "Okay, well, life extensions happening from the 30% caloric restriction." But when it comes to their lifespans, I think it's pretty hard. I think you could probably ask Dr. Dom D'Agostino or some actual lab scientists their thoughts. They would probably have some ideas that they've formed on it.

I don't think I've formed any opinions on it, but I just know that with that Kumar et al. study that it is often used that-- it's not applicable to us at all. The only way it's applicable is, like I said, if you're starving children for a month, every other month for a year. Of course, that's going to negatively affect their reproductive hormones. So, I don't think anyone would ever do that kind of approach either. Not in a normal setting, unless they were morbidly obese or something and they were in a hospital, and you would never fast children. That's the main point. We can't extrapolate those results, because they were three months old. So, a scientist who actually does some of these studies, like even Dr. Mark Mattson, he would probably have some really good ideas on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've talked about this before on the show. I remember I heard Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about this, and then I did find the study that referenced it, but it was talking about how the amount of weight loss that a rodent can lose in that amount of time. It's a shocking percent. They can lose up to X amount of their body weight and it's a very, very high number. I think that really puts in perspective, because you realize, "Oh." So, these studies, the equivalent fasting is us losing-- I don't want to put the wrong number, but it was a very high, like, half their body weight or something. So, it's just not the same thing. I think it's done quite a disservice that we make these assumptions, because like you said, it's like the equivalent of a child. Of course, we're probably going to see negative effects on stress-related hormones if it's that extent of fasting, the analogy.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. One last point I wanted to make is something that I've been talking about a lot on my podcast recently is, there's been so much talk in the last year or two, negative talk about intermittent fasting, headlines especially saying, "Well, it turns out intermittent fasting is only as effective as caloric restriction." That is the takeaway that these articles and people are having. But everyone is forgetting that the whole reason intermittent fasting exploded when it did several years ago is because they found that intermittent fasting was as effective as caloric restriction. [laughs] That was the whole point. It was like, "Wait, you can get the same fat loss results as doing a chronic diet without having to chronically diet." Now it's being turned around and kind of used against it, which I find so funny, but people constantly message me like, "What do you think about this?" But this is the whole reason why we all got interested in it is because we could get great results without having to do the caloric restriction for prolonged period of time. So, you can get all those amazing effects from the metabolic switching, not feel hungry, not feel like you're chronically dieting, but get the same results. That's the whole point. So, I think it's humorous that it's being twisted around now as though it's some kind of new discovery.

Melanie Avalon: That's so ironic. You just can't win. That's the definition of you just can't win. Oh, my goodness.

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Another question about that study. Did they look at DHEA?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, sorry, I talked about this in the podcast episode I did about it. And so, when they were looking at the androgens in women under hyperandrogenism, which is a medical condition when you have two high levels of androgens, they included testosterone, DHEAS, androstenedione, and FAI, which is the free androgen index. It's a ratio that you divide the total testosterone by sex hormone binding globulin and then multiply it by 100. So, they looked at DHEAS.

Melanie Avalon: There was not a change or--?

Vanessa Spina: In females, it was part of all the androgens that decreased. There were three studies that they looked at which had enough to determine the effect of intermittent fasting on the androgen markers in females. So, the first one with premenopausal women with obesity, they did a 5:2 diet and they fasted with 500 calories two days per week. And after 24 weeks, the free androgen index significantly decreased with a 7% weight loss versus baseline DHEAS, testosterone, and androstenedione on the other hand remained unchanged. Then there were two other studies where they were studying the effects of fasting on androgens in women with PCOS. They did an eight-hour time-restricted eating trial. Young women with PCOS and obesity had all their calories between 08:00 AM and 04:00 PM, and then fasted with water for the rest of the day for five weeks. It significantly decreased body weight by 2%, along with the free androgen index and total testosterone levels.

Then finally, Jakubowicz et al., which I hear the study cited all the time compared the effects of eating over 50% of your calories at dinner with eating over 50% of your calories at breakfast in females with PCOS and they found that the free androgen index, DHEAS, androstenedione decreased significantly in the breakfast group relative to the dinner group. So, they really emphasize for women with PCOS who want to lower those androgens that they try to eat all of their calories for the day by 04:00 PM and also to front load, especially the breakfast and lunch.

Melanie Avalon: So, that was still a fasting study, it was just loaded a certain direction?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was called effects of caloric intake timing on insulin resistance and hyperandrogenism in lean women with PCOS. Yeah, they were front loading the calories early in the day versus backloading the calories later in the day.

Melanie Avalon: But they were still fasting or were they still eating all day?

Vanessa Spina: They were eating in an eight-hour eating window.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Cool.

Vanessa Spina: 08:00 AM to 04:00 PM.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, sorry. Oh, 08:00 to 04:00?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and then just water from 04:00 PM until 08:00 AM.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Got you. Yeah, the reason I was asking about the DHEA was the one I was looking at last night, which was also, like I said, Krista Varady, her people. So, it was called Effect of time-restricted eating on sex hormone levels in premenopausal and postmenopausal females. Again, it was October 2022. It's always interesting reading-- You can really tell what their goal is or what thesis they're trying to discuss because the objective, it says, is concerns have been raised regarding the impact of time-restricted eating on sex hormones in females. This study examined how TRE affects sex steroids and premenopausal and postmenopausal females. So, kind of speaking to what we were just talking about how there's this kind of fear out there. Even in the intro and discussion, they talk about the issues with that rodent study and they talk about how it's like the equivalent of a-- Was it a 12-year-old, a 9-year-old?

Vanessa Spina: A 9-year-old. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 9-year-old. Although these findings are concerning because they're referencing the rat findings, they say the female rats were very young, i.e., three months old, which corresponds to human aged 9 years old. TRE is not recommended for children under the age of 12 because it has the potential to negatively impact growth. I would have thought they would have said older than 12 even. But in any case, so this study what I thought was really interesting. I think this is a good example going back to what we're talking about with the thesis that you're trying to champion. I feel like if somebody else had done this study, they could have made a completely different headline because basically what they found was that TRE in the study, so that the way it was setup, so, it was actually a secondary analysis of a trial. They basically went back and looked at another trial, which was eight weeks for four to six hours in adults with obesity and they reexamined the data specifically this issue of female hormones. They found, in general, it didn't really affect hormones. There wasn't really that effect that we would anticipate based on all the fear mongering that's been out there. They did find a drop in DHEA. What I was talking about was the headline, I feel like if somebody who, not that people want to demonize fasting. If the intention was to add to the fear, I feel like they would have made the headline, fasting negatively affects DHEA. Literally, that would have been the headline. That would have been the introduction. It's just so interesting how you can-- But the way they spin it is their conclusion is that the study suggests short-term TRE, which produces minimal weight loss, has little effect on sex steroid levels in premenopausal or postmenopausal females with obesity. These findings will undoubtedly require confirmation by well-powered RCTs.

They mentioned the DHEA a little bit earlier, but what's also interesting is when they talk about the DHEA, they talk about how reductions in DHEA actually may be advantageous in premenopausal females with obesity, because they can translate into a greater reduction in breast cancer risk. They do talk about the negatives though as well, but they do note that the DHEA was still in normal range in the study. So, it's not like it dropped to below normal range. Again, this is just one study, but I just find it really interesting. A nice takeaway about it is that they didn't really see a problematic effect on hormones, but they did see a drop in DHEA and just goes back to what I was saying earlier about how I feel you can spin anything anyway, because these are people who are clearly pro fasting, I mean, it's Krista Varady. So, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, going back to the original question, which was from Nicole, she's hearing that fasting is extremely beneficial for women, especially nearing their 40s. What I find is a common theme throughout a lot of these reviews is that, if you have something that's out of whack from baseline, which so many of us do these days from our modern lifestyles, whether you're having too high androgens, too high estrogen, obesity linked with PCOS, or infertility from too high levels of androgens which is also related to PCOS or you're having insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome from obesity and poor body composition. Intermittent fasting can really help correct those situations. I think that most of the studies that examine that find that to be true. If something's out of whack, intermittent fasting can really help correct it.

I think a question that is probably not so much examined is, in average people who are normal and healthy and don't have anything, that's out of alignment, is fasting still beneficial for hormones. I think that for the most part, seeing that people who come to intermittent fasting usually have something that they're trying to sort out or fix or improve. The people that I know who everything is functioning perfectly for them, they're not really interested in this stuff. So, that's why these studies are done, these reviews are done, is to try and help people who are facing issues like this. There's just so many people who are unnecessarily suffering from some of the symptoms that can be related to having your hormones out of whack. So, it's really encouraging at least in a lot of these reviews, they're seeing overall positive results.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And to that point, I agree so much. I would love to see more studies in-- I don't want to say normal people, but people without obesity, normal weights, that would be really, really amazing. Going back to what I was talking about when I was cohosting with Cynthia, she's definitely very pro fasting for women's hormones. A huge takeaway I just took away from that chapter of the show was the profound beneficial effects that, if implemented correctly, fasting can have on women's hormones. I think something to probably end with about this whole topic is, I think people confuse oftentimes fasting with over restriction in that fasting by itself-- In my opinion, fasting by itself does not mandate or necessitate an overly restrictive state for the body, but it can become overly restrictive if done that way, and you can stack it on top of other stressors. So, if you're overexercising, undereating, and fasting, that might just be a perfect storm of hormonal issues. It's not necessarily the fasting per se. It's the over restriction of everything. I think that's important to keep in mind.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, absolutely. Well, are you ready for next question?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think we're probably out of time.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you're right. Next episode. Are you ready for the next episode?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: I'm still getting used to how this works.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Wow. Time flies by when you're having fun. [giggles] Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, for listeners who would like to dive deeper into all of this, we will put links to everything in the show notes. The show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode320. Again, they will have a transcript and links to everything that we talked about. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Oh, I do want to mention, because I haven't picked the winner yet. Although, by the time this comes out, I'll have to make note of when this comes out, you can still enter our giveaway. I'm giving away over $500 worth of Beautycounter products which is Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, free of endocrine disruptors which can be messing with your hormones. Speaking of, it can be messing of your hormones and actually can be a big crutch in weight loss actually. So, you can win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products, if you go to Apple Podcasts and write a new review for the show and/or update your old review. So, everybody can enter to win. Just make sure that it includes what you're enjoying having Vanessa on the show or what you're looking forward to having Vanessa on the show, just a way to help welcome her. And then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will submit you to enter to win. I guess, now I can mention because Vanessa, you have Beautycounter link now, right?

Vanessa Spina: I do, I am official. You've converted me to the Beautycounter life and I'm so excited about it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I am too. So, now friends, you can shop with both of us. We both have links. So, beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. So, that is super awesome. Just to wrap everything up, you can submit your own questions to the show by emailing that email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifppodcast.com and you can submit questions directly on the site. And lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So, anything from you Vanessa before we go?

Vanessa Spina: As always, I can't wait to get into the next episode with you and just continuing to answer these wonderful questions.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm just so happy. I just love that I get to talk about these fasting studies with somebody who cares, and [giggles] hopefully, people like listening. But yeah, no, I had a great time and I look forward to talking to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait. See you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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May 28

Episode 319: Romantic Compatibility, Protein Powders, Detox Diets, Smooth Skin, Cellular Renewal, Retinols, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Sue - Smooth skin

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Listener Q&A: Tara - What are your thoughts on retinols?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I have a question for you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yay.

Melanie Avalon: Is love blind?

Vanessa Spina: That is a great question. I think it definitely can be. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon: I have a lot of thoughts about this. [laughs] So, for listeners, Vanessa and I realize we're both big Love is Blind fans, the reality TV show, which I don't normally watch, like, I don't watch any other reality TV. I don't know why I'm obsessed with that show. Do you watch reality TV?

Vanessa Spina: I do. I like relationship shows like this one. They're kind of my mental relaxation. I'm just fascinated by interpersonal dynamics and especially what generates chemistry between people, especially what generates chemistry in a couple. What is it that causes chemistry between these two people that it doesn't and these other and I find it endlessly fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: It's so fascinating, especially when there're all these different options. You could be very physically attracted to somebody and emotionally attracted to them and like them as a person, or you could be physically attracted to them and not like them as a person, or you could really like them as a person and not be physically attracted to them. There're so many options. It's like what you just said, what is that visceral, chemical, physical attraction, like what's creating that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I find it endlessly fascinating because I know some of it is happening beneath the surface. We all know about pheromones, but then there's these fascinating concepts like your histocompatibility complex. While women who go out to bars and meet men, they've done research where women will be more attracted to the scent of men. Those pheromones of the men that have an immune system that is compatible with theirs for their offspring. The women that get hit on the most at bars are the ones who are ovulating, there's so much going on that we don't even know. It all has to do with reproduction. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: Also, apparently, I haven't read the book yet, but I know there's a whole book about this about how being on birth control affects who you're attracted to. And so, women will be on birth control, be attracted, select a partner, get married and go off of birth control and no longer be attracted to their partner.

Vanessa Spina: That's the same study I'm talking about with the histocompatibility complex. The women who could smell who were not on birth control they could tell which men had the compatible immune system. But the ones who were on birth control, when they smelled their sweat, they couldn't tell the difference and they couldn't figure out which men were compatible for their offspring. It's unbelievable.

Melanie Avalon: What I'm also very, very fascinated by and this goes back to the, is love blind question. I find it really interesting. I feel like I have to tiptoe saying this, not around you, just around the world [laughs] that we look down upon listing a person's attractiveness as a quality that we “should be attracted to.” You're supposed to like intelligent people or kind people that's okay to “like” and when I say okay, I mean sort of the way it's presented in the world. But it's like, oh, if you like somebody because they're very attractive to you, that's somehow seen as shallow when in reality all of these things are because this is my thoughts, you're looking for a mate that is most compatible with you. So, it's giving you something you need. So, the intelligence of another person. You're looking for a mate that will A, create intelligent offspring, B, be able to take care of you and survive in the world.

And then with the physical attraction, it probably goes back to that physical compatibility. The kindness would probably be like a whole. I don't know, there's probably debates about that, about whether we're naturally altruistic or not. Basically, my point is I find it really interesting that it's kind of looked down upon to use physical attraction as something that would be valid. I feel like thesis of Love is Blind is that love should be blind. I feel that's their thesis.

So, for listeners who haven't seen that show, people speed date without ever actually seeing the other person and they have to propose and they meet in the real world and do they get married or not. And then they decide on the wedding day if they're actually getting married or not. But just my thoughts, I feel like that show is championing this idea that love should be blind and that we shouldn't base on physical looks. But I just feel evolutionarily, I don't know, wouldn't you want to be with somebody who you are physically attracted to.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it is looked at in a superficial way, but I think it's a negative when people are making their whole decision, like, centered around that person's attractiveness. What I love about Love is Blind is that it takes the physicality out of the equation so that people can get to know each other more deeply. It's fascinating as a concept to watch people get to know each other without knowing what the other person looks like and making all those connections. But when they do meet in person, I think it's such a great point that you bring up about the importance of physical attraction because sometimes they don't work out and the main reason is because they're not physically attracted to each other, even though they've made that mental and emotional connection. The physical chemistry is really important aside from just sexual chemistry, but I think there's also components.

Like when I met Pete, I knew that we're going to have really beautiful offspring. I just knew I had a feeling. I know that part of my attraction to him was because I knew that he would impart qualities to our children that would beneficial and it wasn't just because he was hot. You know what I mean? I do think it's an interesting point because it is why I've personally always preferred just meeting people in person because you really can form so many of those micro decisions when you meet someone in the flesh, but you can also form amazing connections with people without even ever meeting them.

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, listeners, Vanessa's son Luca is just the cutest thing ever. He's going to be such a beautiful, I mean, he is a beautiful human being, but he's going to grow into such a wonderful man. I can tell.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon: Very excited for his future. Yeah. That's something they often say with dating apps today that I feel like I just keep hearing this. If you are interested in somebody on the dating app, you should meet them sooner rather than later, rather than draw out this long conversation, because you just won't know until you see them in person. Like you just said, you can answer so many micro decision questions, I think, about attraction and compatibility just by meeting somebody in person. So, yes, dating thoughts.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I love that we're both fascinated with the show, and I think the whole world has been really I mean, I know this podcast is coming out a little bit after when it's all sort of been blowing up, but it's a really fascinating concept. It's a lot of fun to watch. I was just amazed this season by how many couples really formed beautiful connections, loving connections, like real connections, and stayed together.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I was too, because I was watching it and I was like, “I don't think any of them are staying together.” [laughs] This is like a lost cause. But then, yeah, also something I like about the show, not to make this all about that show with most reality TV, I get the feeling, and I've been on a lot of reality TV shows, so I know this from the other side. Even, oh, sidenote, speaking of humans and evolutionary, I was on a National Geographic docuseries called How Human Are You? It was about all of this and it was like a speed dating thing and they were analyzing how humans interact and speed date, but it was just a little bit upsetting because it was all staged. I was like, I thought National Geographic was real, but it was casted, basically. So, the Love is Blind, I feel like they actually have non-actors. It's actually real people.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they're not trying to create fake storylines and things like that.

Melanie Avalon: So fun times. Well, anything new in your world before we jump into all the fasting stuff?

Vanessa Spina: I've been working on launching my new line of protein supplements. I've been working with your partner Scott at MD Logic. I'm just having so much fun with our conversations and how it's all going and I'm just really, really excited to be working on that. I'm working on some other just really exciting projects. I feel like everything is happening at once as it tends to.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you with that. I don't know how much you can share, but like protein powder-type situations?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've been wanting to make one for years. I've been looking into it for years. With Scott and MD Logic, I think it's just the perfect partnership because he has such high standards, which I know is why you partnered with him. And I think it's just the perfect fit. We're talking about a couple of initial products that we're going to do, but all of them are centered around helping women, especially men as well to build more lean mass and improve their body composition. I just want to have the highest quality possible protein supplement out there without fillers that's really clean and that you can trust. You can trust that it'll help you to optimize your muscle protein synthesis without having to just be eating protein all day long or drinking massive protein shakes. So, I'm really excited about the potential.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is so thrilling for so many reasons. Well, one, we get questions all the time about recommended protein powders. So now we will have a go to and it will be one that I can feel so, so good about because I personally don't really use protein powders, but I have in the past and the amount of-- there're just so many brands and they are full of so many terrible ingredients. It's really, really hard to find good quality clean protein powders, at least in my experience, because I have gone through periods where I would play around with them. That's really exciting that you'll be able to make the best of the best.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that's the biggest thing for me is I've gotten just endless questions over the years on the different protein powders and I've always stayed brand agnostic, but I always try to post guides on what to look for in a really good high quality protein supplement. The number one thing is checking the amount of leucine that's listed. So, the more detailed the packaging is, especially when it comes down to the individual amino acids. You can look at the ingredients and see the order that they're listed in to find out what it's made of.

But if you are looking at a really high-quality brand, they'll tell you how much leucine is in each serving. That amount of leucine should be, for example, with weight, it should be at around 11%. So, if it's not 2 to 3 grams for a scoop of 20 to 30 grams, then something would be off. And if you just don't see a breakdown of the amino acids of the exact amount of leucine, then I would question it. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily trying to be shady or anything, but I would just question it because you would want to see that they understand the importance of those leucine amounts and that they're putting in all the right things.

Melanie Avalon: That's so incredible. Yeah, I think that's something I mean, I imagine that people who are really into the bodybuilding sphere and really into all of that will be aware of it. But I'm just thinking about the audience on this show in general. I feel a lot of people are not aware of, there needs to be some education surrounding this. That's so exciting that you can provide the education and you'll be able to provide the resource.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. When this airs, I think that will probably be coming out around this time. I'm not sure. I just had a call with Scott yesterday about this, but we're probably launching subscriptions for my berberine supplement, which is exciting. We're trying to figure out right now.

Vanessa Spina: Let me ask you, what's new with you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, just launching that and we're trying to figure out right now what bottle size to go with and so much fun, yes. I was polling the audience. It's really interesting too. It's all these little things you don't think about until you have a brand like things, just so many decisions and hours and hours of conversations that people just have no idea. Like talking about bottle size for an hour.

Vanessa Spina: I love when I chat to Scott. I feel like I'm talking to you too. It just flies by. It's like I'm in the zone. I'm like, it's been 2 hours. I'm like, “Oh, my God, I got to go. I got to go make dinner.”

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's one of the problems about-- Scott's into all this stuff. Listeners are familiar with him because we've had him on the show, maybe three or four times now. When you launch your protein powder, we'll have to have him on and do an episode.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, what is new with you?

Melanie Avalon: Really? Just yeah, working on the supplements we are starting just really quick brief teaser, my next supplement. So, we launched the Magnesium Threonate which has been amazing. Which I think I told them to send it to you. So, hopefully it's hard to get stuff to Vanessa over in your land, but you should be getting it soon. That's been amazing for I've been taking it every night for sleep and relaxation. Now, baby teaser, we're starting on my next supplement, which is probably going to be in the chlorella, spirulina world. So, I'm very, very excited about that. And then Friday, I'm seeing the Taylor Swift concert.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for you. I was laughing the other night because I was on Twitter, and I was like, I think I'll follow Melanie. I went to your Twitter because I'm barely ever on Twitter, and your last tweet was something about how being on the phone crying to your mom about not being able to get Taylor Swift tickets is the definition of first world problems and I was laughing. It was so funny.

Melanie Avalon: It really is. It really is.

Vanessa Spina: I remember when you were doing that like trying to get tickets. So, that's so exciting. It's this week. Wow.

Melanie Avalon: I literally think about it too much, too much. So, that's going to be an experience on Friday. I don't know. I might have a heart attack. Like we'll see. I might faint. But all is well. All is too well. I will tell you, so yeah. So, I'll give links for listeners. For my current supplements, you can go to avalonx.us. You can use the coupon code MELANIE AVALON for 10% off sitewide. You can get email list updates on that at avalonx.us/emaillist. So, that's where you'll hear about the spirulina and chlorella and subscriptions and all the things. Vanessa, have you started an email list for your supplements?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. You can sign up for notifications about the protein at tonepotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Is that going to be the name you think?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm sticking with the Tone. I mean, it was perfect for the Tone device because it was like toning and ketones. But it's all about toning getting toned.

Melanie Avalon: That is perfect. I'm so excited for you. Okay. This is great.

Hi, Friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this. How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them. But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time.

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All right, shall we jump into questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, our first question today comes to us from Sue Kimpton. Subject is smooth skin. “Why is my skin smoother when I follow a good fasting protocol? For example, clean fast of decent length for a number of days. I've done IF for almost three years and I enjoy it immensely. Thanks for all your hard work.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sue. Well, thank you so much for your question. This is a great question and I did a deep dive into it. It's interesting because when I thought about the question before doing any research, I just felt intuitively, like it makes a lot of sense. The first things that came to my mind for this were reductions in inflammation from fasting, increases of stem cells, like the detox effect. It just seemed intuitively that it makes sense that fasting promotes good quality skin. But there actually is a bit of research. So, interestingly, there's actually a lot of research on calorie restriction and skin health. And I think a lot of the benefits that we receive from calorie restriction, we receive from fasting, there might be similar or there are similar pathways activated. So, I think a lot of that can extend to each other.

So, for example, calorie restriction specifically can affect plasma proteins, hemoglobin, and skin collagen. All of those are involved in our skin health. There was one study that looked at the impact of calorie restriction on side effects with topical retinoid treatment, and they found that there was a reduction in irritation from that retinoid treatment from calorie restriction. And they hypothesized that this might be due to a boost in local antioxidant levels, which is something we also see with fasting, and also specifically on the inhibitory effect of a transcription factor. It's called the matrix metalloproteinase, MMP genes. And those are involved in tissue destruction. So, basically stopping signaling that would otherwise be destroying our skin. So, again, this is calorie restriction that had that effect. But I do think we can probably extend some of that to fasting as well.

And then studies have also found in general that calorie restriction can improve the appearance of wrinkles and decrease oxidative stress. Again, we know that intermittent fasting definitely has a profound effect when it comes to reducing oxidative stress. I found a super cool study. This was published in very recently, March of 2023, and it's called The Effects of a Fasting Mimicking Diet on Skin Hydration, Skin Texture and Skin Assessment, a randomized control trial. It was published in the Journal of Clinical Medicine. This was looking at the fasting-mimicking diet protocol, which we talked about a lot on this show that was created by Valter Longo, who we've also had on this show, as well as on my Biohacking Podcast. Have you interviewed him, I think I asked you that before. Have you interviewed him?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we did talk about it because I was saying he's really hard to lock down. So, his protocol is a severely calorie restricted fasting mimicking-type approach for five days. They actually looked at that on the effects on skin health. Again, the reason I think this is applicable to intermittent fasting in general is they find that with the fasting-mimicking diet, it basically activates a lot of the circumstances and situations and benefits of fasting, but you're still just eating like a tiny, tiny bit.

So, in that study, they found that the fasting mimicking diet increased skin hydration in the participants. The participants were a group of 45 healthy women between the ages of 35 and 60. It also helped maintain their skin texture in the fasted group. But for the group that was not doing the fasting-mimicking diet, they actually saw an increase in skin roughness. And so, then they went and talked about the reasoning behind this, and they said that probably due to how it affects the skin barrier, the things I mentioned before with oxidative stress, also the role of stem cells and then super interestingly-- So, this was discussed in that fasting-mimicking diet study.

They were saying that another way that the fasting-mimicking diet might help skin health is actually through the gut-skin connection. So, basically, the effects of fasting can have a beneficial anti-inflammatory effect on the gut microbiome and support members of the gut microbiome that might be related to skin health. So specifically, those are lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria. They referenced another study, for example, and that was children with eczema. Those children were found to have less gut colonization of Bifidobacteria and lactobacillus compared to controls.

And then in another study, this was animal study, but they found that different strains of Bifidobacteria could actually help with supporting skin hydration and actually protected against UV damage, which is pretty cool. So, basically, they are hypothesizing that maybe the fasting has a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome and that might actually be supporting skin health as well. So that was very long. But all that to say, there's a lot of mechanisms whereby fasting can help promote skin health. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that was such an incredibly thorough answer. I love that you elucidated all of the main mechanisms and some of the studies there. I mean, I know that you're absolutely correct when it comes to stem cell production, stimulation of that cellular renewal that can happen through that, and definitely the autophagy makes a huge difference. I think the main point that you brought up about lowering the inflammation because you're spending more time in the fasted state. But I definitely always notice it for myself.

When I just did my recent five day seasonal fast, I had a massive improvement in my skin it just feels so soft, like a baby's bum. I've been combining it with red light as well. The red light therapy, I think, makes a big difference because it's stimulating all those epigenetic growth factors in the collagen and elastin. So, combining it with that's made a big difference. It's amazing how tangible the difference is. I think that's awesome that Sue is noticing that, because this definitely motivates you when you have those kinds of tangible results.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. My brother is engaged and he's getting married. His fiancée reached out to me, and she wanted to know about-- she said she wanted to work on her skin for the wedding, and she wanted to know my thoughts on doing one of those, like, juice cleanses. I think she wanted to do some lemon water juice cleanse.

Vanessa Spina: The Master Cleanse.

Melanie Avalon: It wasn't the Master Cleanse. Have you done the Master Cleanse?

Vanessa Spina: I did years ago when I was very misinformed.

Melanie Avalon: That's the one with the pepper, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's lemon juice, maple syrup, and cayenne. In Canada, anyways, we use maple syrup.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, in Canada you use--

Vanessa Spina: Maple syrup.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, Canadians are known for their maple syrup.

Vanessa Spina: But you're basically just drinking spicy sugar water.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds miserable. I don't think I ever did it. I remember my friends in college were doing it, and they said, [chuckles] I will never forget this. They were like, they say when you do that you shouldn't, I apologize if this is crude, “Don't trust a fart when you're on it.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I bet. Don't trust your farts for sure. People misinterpret that as, like, detoxification, but it's not.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's the craziest diet thing you did?

Vanessa Spina: Probably that, but I remember just being out of college, so many cleanses and detoxes. They were so popular. I think now, like, teas. Detox teas have been pretty big in the last few years, which I never tried any of that. But probably the Master Cleanse was the craziest thing. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: Two things, the cookie diet.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, that's right. You did the cookie diet.

Melanie Avalon: I was all about those cookies and then I went back and yeah, I looked at the ingredients, and it's literally gluten. I think the first ingredient is gluten. It's like fiber and gluten. It was so miserable. I will get these shipments, like, shipped, and I was living with roommates at the time, and they were like, “What is Melanie doing?” That one and when I ate, I did the apple, what's his name-- like the apple diet, Edgar Cayce or something, basically, where you're supposed to eat just apples for three days and then you take some olive oil and it's supposed to flush out.

Vanessa Spina: I've never heard of that one. That's hilarious.

Melanie Avalon: What's funny, though, is I did it for-- so you're supposed to do it for three days, oh gosh. You're supposed to do it for three days and I did this in college, and I felt so amazing. I felt high. This was before I had done intermittent fasting. I wasn't overweight, but I had weight to lose. Now I'm such a low body weight, I would not feel comfortable doing something like this. I want to clarify about that because I was reading not that I get wrapped up and we don't have a lot of trolls, but comments from people. But I did see a comment somewhere the other day about how I guess I talk about these crazy things I've done, so people shouldn't listen to me.

Friends, listeners, I'm just being completely transparent. Before I became super aware of the importance of food and how it affects our bodies and fasting and paleo and keto and all of that. I mean, I was just trying all the things because you so desperately want to find something to lose weight. So, I hope it's not a reflection on me now. I think people get confused about that.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I always say. I'm like, I have tried it all. Name me one thing. Okay, maybe I haven't done the apple one, but I've done it all. I've tried it all. And that's how you learn. It's part of how you learn.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I've been super transparent about how I went through my period where I just ate, like, every night, a massive rotisserie chicken. People are like, “You shouldn't listen to her because she went through a phase where she just ate rotisserie chickens.”

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God. When I heard you talking about that, I was like, that is the best. You're in college, you're on a budget, and you're taking advantage of a clearance sale at the end of the day. I had so much respect for you.

Melanie Avalon: 11:00 PM, my night classes would get over at 10:00, and then I would go to the grocery store and get my rotisserie chicken. It was amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I love rotisserie chickens. They're so good and they're never as good when you make it at home. They can be good, but the ones that you buy from, like, yeah, they're delicious.

Melanie Avalon: Really quickly so that was my whole disclaimer about the story I'm about to tell. Please don't, well, you can judge if you like. But I went three days only eating apples. I felt amazing. I was like, I'm just going to keep doing this indefinitely until I don't want to do it anymore. So, I did it. I wasn't drinking or anything, so I did it 10 or 11 days. I was in a film professional fraternity, Delta Kappa Alpha, shout out. We had a film school prom. And so, I went and I drank what I normally would have drunk going out, but this was in the context of only having eaten apples for 11 days. I died. I just died. [laughs] It was the worst night of my life. I remember the next morning I think my roommates thought I was dead. They were like, calling my mom. I was on the floor and my mom was on the phone. She's like, “Melanie, eat some bread.” I was like, "I can't eat bread. I'm not eating carbs now, I don't eat bread." With a very few exceptions, I have not had hard alcohol since then.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, yeah, that combination sounds deadly literally.

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever had a bad night?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I feel I used to have such high tolerance, especially when I was in university and I could go out and drink, and I could out drink like my guy friends. Now I'm such a light weight. Also, you just don't want to be hungover anymore. The older you get, it's like a day of my life lost, feeling miserable. When you're optimized and you're a biohacker and you feel amazing most of the time you have an off day. You're just like, “What is this?” Yeah, it's not a good combination. Actually, I've been thinking a lot about the but and thing, how if you're saying but, you're negating.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so good.

Vanessa Spina: So good. I was thinking about and about how it is fun. I do like to do a couple of big nights a year, like New Year's Eve or someone's wedding or something. It's fun to let loose. But when you have a kid and you're hungover, you never want to be hungover. [laughs] So, it's the next level.

Melanie Avalon: I can imagine. I was actually reflecting on this last night with gratitude. I do drink wine every night, and I drink Dry Farm Wines only, really at home. When I go out, I look up all the wineries of the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic, and then I also try to find the ones that are probably lower alcohol content as well. But I was reflecting last night on how grateful I was. It's so nice to like you said, I can have my drink and drink it too. I have my glass of wine every night to wind down, and I feel really wonderful the next day. I do all the health things and I just love it. It's just a great experience and that's me.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Get the polyphenols, get all those health boosting, the resveratrol all of it.

Melanie Avalon: All the things. So, for listeners, if you would like to get Dry Farm Wines, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and all of their wines are low alcohol, low sugar, and organic and tested to be free of toxins and mold, and you really notice the difference, drinking those. All of that to say, skin. That's what we're talking about. I don't even remember how we got on this. Oh, my brother getting married. His fiancée reached out to me and wanted to know if she should do one of these lemon juice things for her skin. And I was just reflecting on how, honestly, the first thing I think about with skin now probably is fasting. It's not really about what you put in. It's about giving your body that break and that detox period. I think people's skin really can glow with fasting. If I had to pick three things for skin health, like three lifestyle practices or things, I would say fasting. Well, fasting, and the foods that you're eating as well. And then red light therapy, which, by the way, how can listeners get your red light therapy devices?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, the Tone Lux. You can check them out at ketogenicgirl.com. I have three different models there and they have all the wavelengths of light that I found were the most associated with the evidence-based benefits, including boosting collagen in the skin and elastin and really giving the skin a softer, more youthful appearance.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Nice. So, listeners get that. The third thing I would say would be people's skincare and makeup. It's just so ironic because we turn to these products to support our skin health, and so many of them, especially in the US are they're toxic to our skin. They're marketed as making our skin better, but really we're putting in problematic ingredients that are contributing to our toxic burden and in the long term, probably not doing any favors for our skin's appearance. And then same with makeup. I'm all about makeup. I love makeup. It's ironic that we could be putting on makeup to improve the appearance of our skin, but really doing some damage by again exposing ourselves to these endocrine disruptors, these obesogens, these toxins. So, that's why I am obsessed with Beautycounter, because they make nontoxic skincare and makeup. So, yeah, I would say the diet, the red light, and the skincare products.

Vanessa Spina: One last one. So, exfoliation is my secret weapon with the red light, is for me those three pillars. I also love the nutrition one, but the fasting, red light, and exfoliation and using a facial scrub has been life changing. I also do the whole-body scrubs and I have various loofas and things for that. But exfoliation really is the key to maintaining youthful skin because you can remove that top layer of skin. I'm not a skin expert or an esthetician, but it works wonders for my skin if I do it once or twice a week, a high-quality facial scrub. You can also get chemical ones and different kinds of chemical, at-home peels that you can do or just go for regular facials. I don't have time, so I just exfoliate. I've spoken to estheticians in the past who've told me the key is just to exfoliate. Antiaging really is exfoliation. So, I notice a massive difference. Do you do much exfoliation?

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I know you just received, I sent Vanessa this massive shipment of Beautycounter products, which, by the way, they do not make it easy to ship to Czech Republic. I told you it didn't even come up in the USPS system.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my goodness. That's wild because I ship myself with USPS, like, the Tone device all the time and different things. I wonder what was going on there.

Melanie Avalon: So, they were, like, going through the computer. They're like, “Oh, it's not in the computer.” I was like, “The country is not in the computer?” Not like they listed it and were not available. They just took it out. [laughs] So, I literally went to UPS, FedEx, post office and then finally DHL. So, we got the box to Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: You know who ended up shipping it?

Melanie Avalon: DHL.

Vanessa Spina: USPS.

Melanie Avalon: What?

Vanessa Spina: Or maybe that was just a label that was still on it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, that was the label. Yeah, that was because basically when I went to the post office, I boxed it all up with their stuff, and I was like, I'm not going to rebox this. That's funny. So, to answer your question, one of the products in there is the Reflect Effect mask.

Vanessa Spina: I saw that. I can't wait to try it.

Melanie Avalon: So, okay, I'm obsessed. This answers your exfoliation question. You put it on your skin and it's like tightening and brightening and all the things, but it has little beads in it. There's a little tool that comes with it as well, which is optional, so listeners don't have to get the tool if they don't want. But when you remove the mask because you're scrubbing your face to wash it off, it exfoliates while removing the mask if that makes sense. Definitely try. It makes my skin glow. If you use a little tool that you can buy as an add on, you can remove it with that, and that will further exfoliate.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited to try that and also, I think there was also a chemical peel in there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Okay, let me tell you about it. It's the Overnight Resurfacing Peel. So, it's misleading in the name. It's not actually a peel. They call it that because it rivals the effects of getting a chemical face peel. But it's really a leave-on treatment. Every night I wash my face and then I put that on immediately.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm going to try it tonight.

Melanie Avalon: It's so great.

Vanessa Spina: I tried the foundation today I was telling you earlier. I tried the foundation for the first time and I had the little sample and it was amazing. I usually use Mac foundation, and I've always felt okay with it because we are in Europe, so I know that they control what's in it a little bit more. But this one, I felt like I could still see my skin, but I was getting coverage and more so just like an overall even, but not so even that it's unnatural. It was a more natural lighter weight. But I like to have a consistent shade across my face and then contour. So, it was just really nice. I felt like I could see more of my skin. So, I'm excited to order that one actually.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Yes, I think you texted it to me, but I'll order it for you to get it over there.

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to try all of it. It's a treasure chest. Thank you so much for sending it to me.

Melanie Avalon: You're welcome. The awesome thing about the makeup, because I used to honestly, for me, the last thing I “cleaned up” in my diet was my makeup and skincare because it was just so overwhelming. It's really hard to switch out your makeup because it's your makeup. So, I was just so thrilled when I found Beautycounter because knowing that is their mission about the endocrine disruptors, it makes me feel really good about everything. And then on top of that, I went through a phase where I was like, “Oh, everything needs to be completely natural.” It needs to be “natural.” But really the toxicity potential isn't about if it's natural or not. It's about if it's toxic or not. So, they still use a combination of, “natural” and synthetic ingredients, but the testing is surrounding toxicity. So, you can feel really good about what you put on and it means that the products really work.

Like, for example, I've mentioned this before, but the makeup when Tina Fey hosted the Golden Globes, she wore all Beautycounter makeup. So, it's really good makeup. It's ready for the high-definition cameras. Yeah, so, you have to let me know what you think.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm going to try all of it. You're converting me over I think. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So good. It's so good.

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Here's one last question from Tara and it's from the Facebook group, and it actually relates to what we just talked about, so we can quickly answer it. Tara wants to know what are your thoughts on retinols. “Do either of you use it in your skincare routine?”

Vanessa Spina: So, I know retinols are amazing for acne prone skin, which I have been really lucky to not have to deal with much acne. My skin is pretty normal, so I don't use a lot of it. But I think for people who do have acne prone skin, it can be a game changer. The one thing that I do know about retinoids is you have to avoid them when you're pregnant because of the potential levels of the retinoids in them. So, what about you? Do you use them?

Melanie Avalon: I do not. It's interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding them. People say that they might be damaging, might have toxic effects, and then that there aren't really super long-term studies on them. But I also had on Rachel Varga on my show and she was actually very pro retinols. She didn't think there was issues with them. I just-- So, I don't use them personally. I know they also increase sensitivity to the sun, I believe, so I don't personally use them. I've just stayed on the side of erring on not the counter timeline from Beautycounter. They formulated it to have the effects of retinols without having any actual retinols.

Vanessa Spina: That's really interesting that they avoided putting retinols in it. I think that says a lot.

Melanie Avalon: They gave a name for their complex that they created, that they have studies showing comparing it to retinols and showing similar effects. Since I can just easily not do it, I just go that route. So, yes, I would check out the counter timeline from Beautycounter if you're interested in an alternative. If you want to learn more about a supportive side of retinols, check out my episode with Rachel Varga and I will put a link to that in the show notes.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I really like all the exfoliation techniques that we're just talking about, and I like to use glycolic peels and masks that have glycolic agents in them. I know some of them can be a little bit stronger, like salicylic acid, but there's a lot that you can do, I think, without having to use retinoids. I think they're mostly for people who have acne.

Melanie Avalon: I always thought they were for skin, for antiaging. Maybe it's both.

Vanessa Spina: The retinoic acid, I think that's what's in Accutane. I think it's related.

Melanie Avalon: Did you do Accutane?

Vanessa Spina: I did do it because [chuckles] I had a boyfriend when I was in college and I had this weird episode where I did randomly break out, and he was like, “Oh, just take Accutane like I took it.” I think I did it for a week or something. My entire life never have any breakouts. I couldn't tell you the last time I had any kind of breakout or pimple or anything, so I've been really lucky with that because I know it's really difficult to deal with, and especially with using different creams, and then your skin becoming more sensitive and having to balance out an irritated eye. I just like I really feel for people who are dealing with acne.

Melanie Avalon: I had it growing up. It was the worst. I was always doing what was that brand, that Proactiv.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I remember those ads.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It was the bane of my existence. So, I empathize as well. Beautycounter has counter control, which I don't have acne anymore. I did Accutane as well. That was a game changer for me. I do wonder now about the effects. There's a lot of controversy.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Like, you have to get blood work done and everything. It's really intense.

Melanie Avalon: It was a whole thing for me. They made me go on birth control first before going on it. So, I went on birth control in 10th grade to get on Accutane, which, looking back, I'm like, that's just really annoying to me, you know the system.

Vanessa Spina: It's a good thing that you didn't pick your lifelong partner when you were on birth--

Melanie Avalon: I know. My high school sweetheart. Oh, that's so true.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, your immunities would have been just not complimentary.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Wow. Good point. Yes, so, friends, skin, fasting, red light, Beautycounter, exfoliation. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode319.

Something I didn't mention yet on this show. Speaking of Beautycounter, if you would like to be entered to win over $500 worth of products, just go to Apple Podcasts and pull up your review of this show or write a new review. To update it or write a new one and include in the review what you are excited to experience with Vanessa as the new co-host or what you're enjoying about the change in the show with Vanessa here on board, which we are having so much fun. So, send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter.

And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa's handle is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that's all the things. Anything for me, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun. I love all the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record the next episode with you.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Have a good evening.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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