The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

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Jan 11

Episode 247: Eating The Correct Amount, Restrictive Diet, Planning Ahead, Serial Dieting, Macronutrient Focus, Scar Tissue & Autophagy, And More!

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Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 247 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LEVELS: See how your fasting, food, and exercise are affecting your blood sugar levels 24/7, by wearing a Levels continuous glucose monitor (CGM). Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At levels.link/ifpodcast!

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Bethany - Too Much, Not Enough?

Get Well. Stay Well. Go to ifpodcast.com/sowell and get 10% off with the coupon code MelanieAvalon!

Listener Q&A: Ratunda - Question

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #30 - William Shewfelt And Ted Naiman

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Katie - IF, autophagy, and scar tissue

Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 13: Donna Dube

Fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 247 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can skip a 150,000 people waitlist and finally get something that we love and talk about on this show all the time, a continuous glucose monitor, also known as a CGM. Wearing a CGM has honestly been one of the most profound bio hacks that I have personally experienced for understanding how I respond to food, what type of diet and fasting work for me, and truly taking charge of my health. A continuous glucose monitor is an easy to apply sensor that you put onto your arm and guess what? It continuously monitors your blood glucose, also known as your blood sugar. With a CGM, you can literally see in almost real time how foods are affecting your blood sugar levels, how your blood sugar levels change during your fast, how exercise affects them, and so much more. CGMs used to only be available to diabetics or if you had a prescription, but now, Levels is changing all of that. Yep, Levels is making CGMs accessible to everyone. With Levels you get a prescription for a CGM and then you sync it with their amazing app, which lets you track your blood sugar over time, see graphs of your data, get your own metabolic score, and see how that changes, log your meals, and so much more. I am obsessed with wearing CGMs. I've been experimenting with them and talking about them on this show for months now. But even if you just wear one once I think you will learn so, so much about your body and about your health.

Here's the thing. Levels has a waitlist of 150,000 people, but no worries. For my audience, you can skip that and get one right now. Just go to levels.link/ifpodcast. That's Levels dot link slash IF podcast to skip that waitlist of 150,000 people. If you'd like to learn all of the science of Levels, you can check out my interview with the founder, Casey Means, that's at melanieavalon.com/levels, and definitely check out my Instagram, because I have so many reels about how to put on a CGM, it is painless, and so, so easy to do, I promise. Again, that's levels.link/ifpodcast and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 247 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And this is not really relevant anymore for listeners but happy late Christmas, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you. Thank you and happy New Year to you and all the things.

Melanie Avalon: I know. When this airs, it will be 2022. Although, last week, last week as well, I guess.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. This is our second New Year episode even though, we're still recording it in the past. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Crazy, how that works.

Gin Stephens: Wonder how the future looks.

Melanie Avalon: How are things in your world? Anything new?

Gin Stephens: Well, I just want to say thank you for being such a good, well-prepared podcast host on your Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast because I just had a podcast interview last week and it was set up by my publisher. It's a big-name person. I'm not going to say who because I don't want anybody to listen to it. [laughs] Because it's very clear this person didn't even read my book. But yeah, it was so very clear. He had not read anything. First of all, he got the title wrong when he was saying it. Did he got the title of my other book wrong? Didn't he like said, "Oh look, a book that lets you cheat." I'm like, "Oh, my God, no. What? No." Then he's like, "How many days a year can you cheat?" I'm like, "Oh, my God, why am I here?" What am I doing? [laughs] It's really, really-- Everybody else I've ever talked to has been like, you could tell they read it, or at least they read enough of it to really understand what it was about. I think all he did was look at the cover. Maybe, just a picture of the cover. I don’t know.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: That really goes to show you take the time you read the book, you dig in with your guests. I've been a guest on your podcast and I just wanted to say thank you for doing that, and I know your audience appreciates it as well. Maybe, he doesn't have a lot of people that listen to his podcast. I hope not. It might be millions. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've found that, I actually think because I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I think the ones that really shine are the ones where they do do a deep dive, like I talk about how I listen to Rich Role a lot, and he is well, really, really-- You can tell, he's like really reads all the books. He's at that show for about, I think six years or seven years, and he always talks about how-- he never takes a vacation and how he's working on it just 24/7. And it makes me feel better because I'm like, "Okay, it is normal to be doing this 24/7."

Gin Stephens: Well, if I have a guest on-- For Intermittent Fasting Stories, most of my guests are just not authors. They're just intermittent fasters, telling their stories. But sometimes, I do have someone on there like, Cynthia Thurlow with her new book that's coming out in March, and I read it before I talked to her about it. I mean, I did. I took that time and it just feels, it was just so funny, because luckily it was a really short. It's like a 17-minute interview, which is really it was like a segment of a bigger one. But I was like, "Well, this certainly, nobody's going to be reading it after listening to this interview anyway."

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: it was funny but the others I've had have been fabulous. I'm grateful to all of them and I'm grateful for this one too, because maybe one person who hears that as be like, at least interested to look it up. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Were you able to redirect with your answer like clarify?

Gin Stephens: I tried. I did my best but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's funny.

Gin Stephens: It is. It is funny.

Melanie Avalon: Crazy that you bring up Cynthia Thurlow. That's what I was going to talk about.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love her.

Melanie Avalon: In the intro, two things. I as well, am reading her book right now, because she's coming on my show as well. I'm really enjoying it a lot. I really like how she dives into the hormones, like all the specific roles of the hormones, and for listeners, it's geared towards women specifically for fasting. It's funny because when I first started reading it, I was like, "Okay." I mean, it was really good, but I was wondering if I was going to learn anything new. But I do really appreciate her dive into hormones. I have not gotten to the part yet with the actual specifics of her plan. So, I'm not sure how it lines up exactly with things we talked about on this show, but it does seem to be a very good resource for listeners.

Gin Stephens: She's a bit more conservative when it comes to women and fasting than I am and you are. That's just important to know like with your cycle. It might be like, I'm such a big eater, and you like to eat a lot, too. So, I just have less fear that women aren't eating enough because you know, if you're listening to your body, you're not going to over restrict. So, I don't know. I think she's more of a restrained eater, perhaps. So, if you're a restrained eater, I feel like you would worry more about women not getting it being able to eat enough. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Like if you'd experienced it before?

Gin Stephens: Through your lens, someone who doesn't eat a lot is more of a restrained eater and they would realize that maybe you can't eat "enough" [laughs] in a certain window.

Melanie Avalon: I just had an epiphany. She's like a blend-- well, she's more like me in that she does prescribe eating certain types of food in your window. So, she advocates like Whole Foods based and typically lower carb, but she talks about carb cycling as well. But she does talk about what foods to eat. I do think when you're eating, well, just from a pure calorie percentage, it is more likely if you're eating Whole Foods or eating like low carb, specifically, I think that you might eat less. Because if you're eating all processed foods, it's really easy to eat thousands, and thousands, and thousands of calories.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. I don't know anybody who promotes that's the best way, the processed foods, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon: Not that they promote that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean some people do, I guess. That's what they think IF is.

Melanie Avalon: True.

Gin Stephens: Or if you just read the title of any of my books, you might think that's what I say, too. Then, you actually read it and go, "Oh, that isn't what Gin said."

Melanie Avalon: So, the difference would be, so with Fast. Feast. Repeat., there's not a huge, huge focus just as much as there could be.

Gin Stephens: The whole feast section is about choosing, going away from ultra-processed foods towards real foods, but when you're ready.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's not to the extent of my book or Cynthia's book.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not taking a side. Like, you should be low carb, everybody should be low carb, or everyone needs carbs, a lot of carbs. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe, the type of person who's addressing both of those right at the beginning and more intensely could more likely underrate. Maybe, I don't know. I'm just thinking.

Gin Stephens: Yep. And I love her. She is more delightful in person than she is even virtually. Because she's great. I met her in Tampa when I was there in November. She and I definitely agree that women should not over restrict. That's important. Especially, hormonally, it can definitely affect our hormones. I don't think you just shouldn't do fasting certain times of the month. I never stopped fasting just because of what day of my cycle it was, but I may have had increased hunger naturally. Because I got better at listening to my body. I naturally had a longer eating window.

I actually remember joking in my Facebook group one time that, every month, I would have a day where I was starving and be like, "Why am I so hungry today?' And every day, yeah, the next day, you know, boom, there we go, it's low or whatever you call it. But every month that surprised me, but I always had that day of increased hunger where I ate more, and I was like, "Wow, that was surprising. Why am I so hungry?" I'm like, "Oh, da." [laughs] But I always listened. I didn't feel like I was feeling. If I have different hunger, I'd always listen.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited to talk to her about that specifically, when she comes on my show. For me, I would never want to-- because I eat do pretty much the same eating window every night. For me, personally, I would not want to change my fasting in eating windows for my cycle. Honestly, that would just add more stress to everything. I'd rather just eat more in my eating window when I'm hungrier. That's how I would compensate.

Gin Stephens: I've always just been very, like, even when I was trying to have a five-hour window every day, I talked about this before as well. I made a goal that like, it was like, it was 2016. June of 2016, it's my goal, I'm going to have a perfect month where every eating window will be five hours or less. Well, that didn't happen in June, and I was like, "I'm going to do it in July." It didn't happen in July. I've never had a month of my life, or every month, or every day was five hours or less. Because I just said like, "Oh, we're out. Let's go out to eat."

And I'll have two meals that day, and maybe it's an eight-hour window, and I'm more of like a social kind of, "Today, I'm going to open my window wider or I'm hungry today. I'm just going to go ahead and eat now." So, I just tossed those in. I think that's been helpful over time. I've never been overly rigid. even when I tried to be. Other than, there were like 10 weeks in the spring of 2015, when I was trying to get to goal that I was a little more strict for those 10 weeks. I don't even know if I was perfect for those 10 weeks, I doubt it knowing myself, but that's been a long time ago.

Melanie Avalon: For me, it's not that I'm being, because I'm just thinking about it more like super rigid, it's just that the way I have my life set up. I'm working the same amount every day up until I eat. So, opening up the window earlier doesn't really make sense for me, and then, it's not like, I can eat later because I go to bed. So, it takes care of itself. It's self-contained.

Gin Stephens: I'm just a little more spontaneous and flexible, just because that's my personality, I guess. I don't do well with overly rigid. If Will came home right now and said-- you know, I don't normally open my window right now. But it's a lot earlier in the day, although I mean, I totally could. If he came home and said, "Hey, I really want to go blah, blah, blah, here with you. Would you go with me out?" I'll be like, "Sure."

Melanie Avalon: I think that's one reason that our show works so well, because we're able to cover a lot more approaches. It works so well that we are like that. Because you cover all the people that are more fluid and like what you just said, and then, I'm the people that are like the same window all the time.

Gin Stephens: On the flip side of that, when I was that 10 weeks, when I was really trying to get to my goal, I was a little more rigid. If you have a goal to lose weight, if you're too flexible, it just probably isn't going to happen. You may need to tighten up for the weight loss phase. But again, if I look back to my history of intermittent fasting when I really committed in 2014, now, here we are when this airs in 2022, right? That's a long time. 2014 to 2022 is a lot of years. I was a lot more mindful for the very brief period of that time when I was trying to lose weight. But once I got to my goal, that's where the flexibility came in. If my honesty pants get tight, I'm like, "Okay, time to tighten up my window a little bit." And it's the ebb and the flow that really make it work long term.

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Melanie Avalon: The reason I was bringing up Cynthia was too par. I was going to talk about something else, but while we're talking about it, this actually relates completely to our first question. Do we want to go ahead and do that one?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: I really like you like dovetails in into it. We have a question from Bethany, and her subject is: "food not enough too much?" So great. She says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I absolutely love your podcast. I have learned so much and I look forward to listening every day. Like most listeners, I have tried several diet programs including intermittent fasting done incorrectly. I came across your podcast by accident a few weeks ago, and I'm so happy I did. I've lost 10 pounds and several inches since I realized putting stevia in my coffee, was hurting me, not helping me. Clean fasting makes all the difference. I am on episode 20, but I've been listening nonstop to try to get caught up. So, I apologize if this is something you've already covered in your future podcasts, I would definitely skip ahead to hear the answer. People post questions on the Facebook page about not seeing results and in the comments, people are asking, "Are you eating enough?"

What do they mean by this? What happens if you don't eat enough and if you are not counting calories, how are you supposed to know if you are eating enough? Right now, I'm doing an 18:6, opening my window from 1:30 to 7:30. I have a slow-paced job and I get bored. So, I find myself watching the clock waiting for 1:30 not so much to eat, but to have something to do. When I do eat, I don't have a full meal. I try to bring a veggie, fruit and maybe some crackers for my lunch/snack, but then, I struggle to make it home to eat dinner with my family around 6:30. I don't want to increase my lunch or snack because most of the time our dinner is Chick-fil-A drive thru which should start their own weekly delivery box, LOL.

I thought, maybe, I won't eat during the day and just wait until dinner. But when I tried doing one meal a day a couple of times, I ate everything in sight when I got home. Chocolate, candy chips, everything easy but not healthy. I have two little kids by the way. I want to work my way to eating one meal a day but I guess my body is just not ready right now since I have only been doing IF the correct way for a few weeks now. I'm seeing results and I don't want to backtrack due to eating too much during my window. I appreciate any suggestions you can offer and I look forward to your reply."

Gin Stephens: There's a lot in there. I wonder what Facebook page she's on? Of course, I haven't been on Facebook since March of 2021. So, wow, it's almost a year of being off of Facebook.

Melanie Avalon: I think this was a really old question.

Gin Stephens: Old. It's really old. Okay. That's what I was wondering. Now, I wonder who's asking, "Are you eating enough?" Because I don't think that's the right question. The right question is actually very similar. The right question is not, are you eating enough? It's, are you restricting too much? Which sounds like the exact same question, but I think it isn't. Restricting too much does mean you're not eating enough. But I would think about your eating window and what you're doing within it, and like for example, when Bethany says, "She wants to work to one meal a day," it sounds to me like, she's thinking one meal a day is like 23:1 or something. We've talked about this before, neither you nor I Melanie, eat one meal a day in a one-hour window. We have a longer period of eating. So, we stretch our eating out in one way or another over a longer period of time, then like just an hour.

So, I feel like if you give yourself a long enough window like 18:6, or 19:5, or 20:4, and you allow yourself to eat intuitively within it, you're not going to fit in two full meals in a six-hour window, probably, two full meals. It's probably going to be like one big hearty meal or multicourse kind of thing over that period of time. I would think you're probably not overly restricting if you're in that period of time and eating to satiety. But it's when you try to really force it into a small period of time, and you do that day after day after day after day, that's when it becomes restrictive. You might be eating "enough in that 23:1 paradigm enough to maintain your weight, but your metabolism will downregulate overtime if you do the same thing day after day after day, and especially, if it's a little bit restrictive for your body. So, when we say not seeing results, like, if you're not eating enough, you're not going to gain weight. I mean, we can agree on that, right, Melanie? You don't gain weight by not eating enough.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. People will say that they're eating severely restricted diets and gaining weight and you can't-- I don't know.

Gin Stephens: I mean that could happen if you have over time slowed your metabolism to the point. Like let's say, you did a 500 calorie a day diet for a year, I'm just you know, hopefully, no one would ever do that. But let's say, you did. You ate 500 calories a day for a year, and now, you eat 700 calories a day, could you start gaining weight? Yes. Because your body has adjusted to 500 calories and your metabolism is slowed. I mean that's an extreme example. So, could you gain weight on extremely low-calorie diet? Yes. But that's only if you've really slowed down and now, you're eating more. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. If they're actually taking in 700 calories.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's a very severe example. I don't know. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, the reason I think it's actually really worth discussing is, I think people think about it that way. They think that their metabolism could slow enough to the point where they could gain weight on 700 calories,

Gin Stephens: I have heard from people who have gained weight on like a thousand. These are not people who don't know how to count calories. People who have a long-term diet history, and they are used to counting calories, they know how to count calories, and they're really have been restricted for a long time, they do have to keep lowering, lowering, lowering, and so that gets to the point where they actually could gain weight on a very small number of calories like a thousand. Because your body is downregulated to the point. So, you can't fix your metabolism if it gets downregulated. So, if you're not eating enough as we just said, if you're keeping it in a very restrictive window day after day after day for a long enough period of time, you can plateau there.

But that is absolutely not where we are right now with you, Bethany, because you just started a few weeks ago. So, I don't think that's time to downregulate your metabolism. The key is really just listening to your body and making sure you're not over restricting. You kind of would get an idea if you've dieted at all before in the past, think about when you did a restrictive diet, and how much food you were eating, and if you're eating like way less than that now in your eating window then you used to eat over the course of the day, that's a sign you might be over restricting.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I have a few thoughts and it kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier with, you know, how easily do people under eat. I do agree that not eating enough is actually very different from over restricting. It sounds like it'd be the same thing but-

Gin Stephens: It's really not that, right? I'm glad you get it.

Melanie Avalon: -it's not, because and I guess we would even need to define what under eating is, but let's say that under eating is not eating the amount of calories. Well, I don't know, because you do have to under eat to lose weight in a way. Well, if that's what under eating is, that's not the same thing as over restricting which is like providing way too much of a restriction to your plan. They are different. What actually something that I was thinking about, it wasn't about eating, it was a study about runners and their exercise levels compared to, if they had amenorrhea from it. So, if they lost their cycle from running and it did not relate to the amount of exercise they were doing. So, like, everybody could exercise the same amount intensely. That was not the factor for if they lost their cycle, it was their body weight. I bring that up because I think the analogy or the comparison to fasting would be that-- so, you could be doing a lot of fasting or "under eating," but if your actual body is not in a baseline state of stress, which I think the equivalent is like in the running study, it's like the people who are underweight, that might be okay for you.

Gin Stephens: I just had an epiphany, a huge one.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Go ahead.

Gin Stephens: It's only overly restrictive if your body perceives it as being overly restrictive in which case, it would downregulate your metabolism. But if you're fast and clean, your body's tapping in your fat stores well, and you're switching up your window day to day, some days you eat more, some days you eat less, your body is not going to perceive it as being overly restrictive, you're well fueled from your fat stores. But the definition of overly restrictive, it's not really something we can say. Like, here's the number that's overly restrictive.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, for example in that study, I just talked about with the runners, so, these are intense endurance athletes training. They're doing a lot of running. Again, it's the women who are too low body fat, those are the ones that affected their cycle. So, they didn't have the body weight to support that intense running, and so, the body is perceiving it as too restrictive compared to the women who had the adequate fat store. So, the body didn't perceive that same amount of running as restrictive and I think you could apply that to fasting as well.

It also brings it to my second point, which is ironically, I was talking about how people following a Whole Foods diet are more likely to "under eat." Ironically that actually might be for some people less "restrictive" because if it's more nutrient dense, like the body is looking for nutrients, and so, you could eat less calories wise, but if it's coming from what your body needs, so, like higher protein really nutrient dense, like our body is looking for nutrients. So, that's going to send a completely different signal to our body than eating the same amount of calories of processed nutrient depleted food. So, I think that's a huge thing. So, like, Bethany's question of like, how much to be eating? For me, the focus isn't even calories, it's the nutrients.

Gin Stephens: I've said it before our bodies don't count calories, they count nutrients. Everything I've ever seen in the literature reinforces that. I actually talk more about that in Clean(ish). Did you get your copy of Clean(ish), by the way?

Melanie Avalon: I did.

Gin Stephens: I thought it got to you. I thought it did, I thought it did. Isn't it so pretty?

Melanie Avalon: It is beautiful.

Gin Stephens: I love it, but there's a section in there. I can't remember which chapter it's in, where I talk about a study they did with little kids back in like the 1930s and how they ended up being master nutritionists who designed the perfect diet when the adults just left them alone and let them eat, what they wanted to eat, that they were looking for the nutrients their bodies needed. If you don't feed them the right things like what Bethany says here. She tried doing one meal a day a couple of times. Now, again, it's early on, so, she's probably not well fueled during the fast. So, that's why she's so hungry when she starts eating because her body is like, " I'm not well fueled? I need a lot to eat." But then, she's eating chocolate, candy, and chips, which is also not nourishing your body. And then your body's like, "That wasn't it, that wasn't it, that wasn't it." And you just keep going in a frenzy of over eating.

Melanie Avalon: The majority of time she says, they're eating Chick-fil-A, which that could be a lot of different things. But I would encourage her to try if she is doing for example, a one meal a day window, which we just discussed is not necessarily a frenzied one-hour of eating experience. It could be starting at 6:30 dinner and much longer or it could be even a snack before dinner, but later, so, like five to nine or something. I would encourage you, Bethany, instead of eating chocolate, candy, chips, because when you're in that hungry state ready to open your window, chocolate, candy, chips is not providing what your body needs at that moment.

Gin Stephens: It's not giving you any of it.

Melanie Avalon: Gin just said this. One, you're going to eat all that. It's not giving you what your body is looking for. So, you're going to still be hungry. Two, it's going to be really messing with your insulin levels. So, you're probably just going to crave even more because it's going to give you massive blood sugar swings. So, if you instead open your window with a very nourishing meal, maybe, I don't want disrupt your entire habit because it probably works well to pick up Chick-fil-A. But if you are able to find another dinner alternative that is possibly more nutrient dense, and more Whole Foods based, and opening with that intense nutrition, especially, high protein, try that and see if it's the same experience of frenzy and feeling like you're overeating and feeling like you can't get full.

It'll probably be a very different experience. Maybe, you can go to Costco and get rotisserie chickens or something like that. I think it'll be quite possibly a different experience or oh, Green Chef, [giggles] is one of our sponsors today. Not planned. I'm so excited. I love it when this happens. Something like Green Chef would be probably amazing for you. So, listen to the ad that we run for them in today's episode. We have an amazing offer from them.

Gin Stephens: The offers just get better and better. That's a really good offer.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I want to pop in and say real quick that, Bethany did say that, when she opens at 1:30, she's usually having a veggie and fruit. When she opens earlier, she's opening with veggies and fruit, more nutrients. Then, if she waits later, she's choosing those quick chocolate, candy, chips kind of a thing or the drive thru. So, it really is about I think being prepared like you said.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It's so interesting because people think that it's a whole lot more of a hassle or time to "eat healthy" or to change to that sort of dietary lifestyle. But it does take some time in the beginning because you got to sit down, and like, Gin said, "You got to be prepared." So, you have to figure out what the plan is that's going to make this materialize. But once you find the plan that works for you and your family, it doesn't have to be hard.

Gin Stephens: Right. You know the saying, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail," right? You've heard that saying before.

Melanie Avalon: I like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you fail to plan, just plan to fail. I mean, you know, not all the time. Obviously, but it's true with me with food. If I let myself get really hungry and there's nothing nutritious to eat, I'm going to grab the quick stuff, too. Because I'm hungry now. I'm just grabbing it. I've done that before. But would you have something in the fridge like my Green Chef meal? I can go to that, I don't have to drive thru somewhere because I'm like, "We're having this and it's quick. I don't have to think about it." I love Green Chef. I, literally, do love Green Chef. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And I just checked our offer right now for Green Chef. So, again, all the details will be in this spot, which will probably air later in the episode. So, greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 and the code IFPODCAST130 will get you $130 off, which is awesome. They just provide access to really nutritious meals and you can choose if you want keto, or paleo, or vegan, or vegetarian, or gluten free, and they use organic ingredients.

Gin Stephens: Or, balanced living, which is what I do. [laughs] I use the balanced living plan which isn't any of those. I always say it when I'm talking about it because that's the plan that I choose is balanced living. I think they're trying to really just promote. People like me that are balanced living, we're just going to pick foods we like. If you're a keto, for example, you want to know they have keto.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I already know what I'm going to be eating when this podcast comes out. The week this podcast comes out, this is what I'm having from Green Chef, cheesy Italian meatloaves. It's got broccoli, and it's got bread, crispy chicken with honey drizzle, it's got mashed potatoes, and like this vegetable slaw, and butternut squash chili. I just looked on my app. Those are the things I'm getting.

Melanie Avalon: What I really like about them as well is, you can really make it your own. So, as you guys know, I eat more simply. So, I just got my box and it had like a barramundi, had salmon, and a chicken dish, and the ingredients are all separate. So, you can choose if there's something that doesn't work for you, you know not to include that in the dish. So, I was able to really make it my own, which was super cool.

Gin Stephens: One thing about Green Chef that's so great is a lot of the stuff is like pre-prepped. They had something I made recently and it had already. They'd already diced up like the-- I can't remember what was it, like sweet potato or something. It was already diced up. Dicing up a sweet potato is not always easy. But it was already diced up but I just had to dump it in. But I mean, it was real sweet potato. But there it was, already diced and just the exact amount that I needed.

Melanie Avalon: I think, Bethany, definitely report back. Again, I do think this was--

Gin Stephens: A really old question. [laughs] Yeah, because if it talks about Facebook, because that was March. That's been a long time. Sorry, it took so long, Bethany. You've probably figured it all out by now.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] So, let us know, the other reason I was bringing up Cynthia Thurlow was, she introduced me to a woman who has a company called SoWell. Her name is Alexandra Sowa. I wonder if she decided to call it SoWell sort of related to her last name or if that was not related at all. What's super cool is, so, she's actually an MD, and I had a phone call with her recently and I'm super excited. I'm going to bring her on my show to talk all about her company. But what I love is Gin and I are always talking on this show about the super importance of testing your insulin levels, and how none of the companies we currently work with like at home ordering, provide insulin, and doctors just don't readily prescribe an insulin, a fasting insulin test. So, she's all about that. Her kits are at-home test, kind of like with ZOE or with Everlywell, or LetsGetChecked. They syndicate to your house and you just do a finger prick yourself, and I'll make a redirect. So, you can go to ifpodcast.com/sowell, S-O-W-E-L-L.

And so, what's really cool is they have two kits right now, but they're going to be launching a new one soon that I can tell you about, but their weight biology kit, so, I'm literally holding the kit in my hand because she just sent it to me, which was super kind. The weight biology kit, it tests your HbA1c, your glucose, your insulin, cholesterol panel, so, like HDL, triglycerides, LDL, your TSH for your thyroid, your vitamin B12, it factors in your BMI and then, it calculates your HOMA IR, which is what we've been talking or I think I've been talking about it a lot. And that's basically a ratio of your insulin and your glucose, and that can actually give you a really good picture of your metabolic health. So, that's super exciting and then they also have their PCOS Biology kit, that's coming soon and that is going to be specifically to help people who have PCOS, which is super cool.

And then, the third one that they're coming out with, I think she said in the New Year, I'm so excited about this, it's going to be just a HOMA-IR test. So, that glucose-insulin measure, and I think they're going to have it like on a subscription type basis thing. I'm not really sure, but she made it sound like you get it monthly. So, you can keep track of your HOMA-IR. So, very, very exciting. It's such a great resource, and I can't wait. I talked to her on the phone like I said, and she was super great, and she just really wants to help women, have access to this testing. I mean, literally, that's testing the things that I think we both believe that you need to be testing. So, we have a code. I'm not sure what the discount is exactly, but if you go to, ifpodcast.com/sowell, that's S-O-W-E-L-L, and you can use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, and that will get you a discount. I will clarify with her what that discount is and put it in the show notes, which by the way, the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode237. So, yay for great resources for listeners.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm excited to have her on the show and really, you know, dive deep into what she's doing. So, all right, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm going to tell you also, this one must be really old, because I know this girl, this lady, I should say. [laughs] She is 53 now. She's in my group. She's on my community. Anybody, if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can find my community but Rotunda, and I'm not really sure how she pronounces her name, because you know, we're all typing stuff. We're not saying things or talking to each other out loud. So, I'm not sure how she pronounces her name. And in my head, I've always said Rotunda. How would you say it, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I would say, Rotunda.

Gin Stephens: Rotunda. Well, she is in my community and she posted 25 days ago, a follow up that she is now 53. So, when she typed this email, she was 51. So, we know it's been a while since she put it. So, I know, this question has already been answered in her life. I'm certain she's not doing this anymore. But she says--

Melanie Avalon: Can I jump in really quick?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I want to clarify something for listeners about that. I'm super glad you mentioned that. If listeners are curious, so, we have every question ever submitted to our show in this massive document. It's very long. I'm telling you this, listeners, because I want you to know, if you submitted a question a long time ago and you haven't heard on the show yet, go ahead and send it again. Because the way I've been prepping the show now is as new questions come in, when I really liked them, I just put them into our prep document to prep, and then, it's only when new questions don't fill up an episode that like when I think we don't have no questions, then, I go back to this massive long document and I pull out. I don't even look at dates. I just pull out something. So, that's what happened with this for example. I say that, so that feel free to submit again because you're more likely to get on the show if you submit now.

Gin Stephens: We changed how we did it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I used to like every time go through the whole document and pick ones out but that's too much. So, if you want your question on the show, submit now, even if you submit it before. Other tips to get your question featured as many details as possible without making it long. It's the whole writing thing of like, saying the maximum amount in the shortest amount possible. That's a golden way. So, as many details but not like a novel.

Gin Stephens: I've been doing IF for six weeks, why have I not lost weight? That is not enough information. We do not know.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, we love specific, we love details, we love personality, but also, if it's like 10 pages.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But we don't have time to read 10 pages. All right, so, here's her question from two years ago. [laughs] She said, "Hi," and then, maybe, I'll read what she just wrote 25 days ago that you would like to hear.

Melanie Avalon: Does it relate to this?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really good. I love it. She answers her own question. It really kind of-- Okay. So, she said, "Hi, I just learned about you and your podcast today." This was two years ago. So, she said, "I listened to Episode 2. I couldn't find Episode 1. Today, during my lunch break, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've purchased Delay, Don’t Deny and I can't wait to start reading it. I've been experimenting with IF for about a year now off and on. I like how I feel while IF-ing. I've been practicing the 16:8 approach. I think I may need to up my game to a five-hour eating window as I'm a 51-year-old perimenopausal woman. As of late, I've been following Jorge Cruise's method, which includes tricking my fast with healthy fats by drinking bulletproof coffee in the morning. Jorge recommends a macronutrient balance of 20% protein, 30% carbs, and 50% fats. Considering your success, I was wondering, do you two pay attention to the macronutrients you consume specifically, complex and simple carbs."

So, fast forward to now, two years later, I'm not going to read the whole thing. She said, "Gin, you have no idea how much you have changed my life prior to stumbling upon your podcast just over two years ago." She said, "My life has changed drastically. I used to be a serial diet or starting a new diet every Monday." Again, she was looking for Jorge Cruz, like what he said to do. That's her serial dieting. I did that, too. Well, how does he say to do it, I'm going to do it like that. But listen to what she says this gives me goosebumps. She's like, "Starting a new diet every Monday. They never worked. I cannot tell you how many diet books I bought. Of the 53 years of my life, I'm confident, I've spent a good 34 years dieting unsuccessfully, not enjoying my life. Since I started IF-ing, the dieting chains have been broken and I've slowly lost 53 pounds over the past two years. I don't care that it has taken me two years. The weight comes off and it stays off, best of all, I'm not on a diet, I'm free. Thank you so much. I'm forever in your debts."

I'm pretty sure, Rotunda has figured out that no, we do not tell you what macronutrient balance you need to eat. We are all going to be different with that. And also, even if I knew what my perfect balance was, I still don't want to calculate it. I just want to eat delicious food, trusting my body to let me know when I need more protein or if I haven't had enough if my food isn't delicious, it probably needs more fat, and I know, also, she knows that you absolutely can't "trick a fast" with the bulletproof coffee. We're both definitely thumbs down on that being fasting because that's a lot of energy you are consuming. So, I know, she's not drinking that anymore.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's super exciting.

Gin Stephens: Isn't it exciting? I'm so glad. I was able to pull it up and that she had such a great-- I mean, now, we know. Two years later, she's done great and she's no longer worrying about the bulletproof coffee or counting her macros, she's just lost 53 pounds since she initially wrote in two years ago.

Melanie Avalon: I'll provide an answer separate from her experience just talking about how I perceive macronutrients, like, whether or not I focus on macronutrients. Two things I really like about macronutrient-based approaches and I don't count macronutrients like the way people count calories or the way people count macronutrients. I don't do any of that. However, I think if people are taking a macronutrient approach, it can work for a lot of people, especially, if they're focusing on protein. So, especially, for people who and again I'm going to do this a little bit separate from Rotunda's question and just talk about the concept in general. Especially, some people who are trying to lose weight and not feeling full or not losing weight, like, focusing on protein as the center of your meal can be very, very effective for a lot of people for weight loss, and for satiety, and for health. I think what's funny is I've always been that way intuitively, like I just crave protein, and I eat high protein. But some people, I don't think it's intuitive at all and it doesn't necessarily occur to them.

For some people, they might benefit from making a conscious decision to focus on protein as the center of their meal, and that can be really, really effective. I've done some episodes on it. So, if you check out my conversation with Ted Naiman and William Shewfelt, that's at melanieavalon.com/protein. We talked about it, you can check out my first episode with Robb Wolf, I believe at melanieavalon.com/sacredcow. We talk a lot about protein. I will be having an episode coming up with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon in the future. That's going to be about protein. So, be on the lookout for that. I also recently recorded with Maria Emmerich, but that's not out yet, but that will be good as well. That's part one is that, just focusing on protein, other macronutrients aside, focusing on protein could be a great route to go and like 20% protein would be much less. That's a much lower protein proportion than what people could be focusing on I think.

Second macronutrient thing is that, especially, if weight loss is your goal, or metabolic health is your goal, having a macronutrient paradigm can work for a lot of people. So, not counting anything per se and I feel like a broken record stuck about this all the time. But doing either low carb or low fat can work for a lot of people. Different things might work for different people at different times. But I do think there is a benefit to focusing on macronutrients. The reason I started focusing on macronutrients actually is, I basically had an epiphany I've talked about this a lot on different shows. But I had this epiphany where I was like, "Hmm, I can look at macronutrients, and I can take in certain macronutrients, and I can pretty much guarantee that I won't gain weight." And if anything, I'll lose weight. I'm not prescribing what I did when I had this epiphany because I don't think it's that healthy. I basically realized that if I just ate protein for example and drink wine that it was pretty much unlikely I would gain weight, and if anything, I would lose weight, and especially, if combined with fasting and that worked really, really well.

But that was just the realization that I had that you can focus on macronutrients. You don't have to count like a single calorie and if there's a hack, I think that's more of a hack than this whole drinking fat while fasting. I think macronutrients are in a way sort of like a "hack." It kind of reminds me of something, I think Peter Attia once said, he was talking about dieting, but he was saying basically, you really just have to monitor one thing. You can count calories or you can count macronutrients. He was saying you can restrict one of three things and likely see benefits. Calories, micronutrients, or time, which for a lot of people restricting one of those can possibly have an effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it did for me. I only restricted by time when I was losing my 75, 80 pounds, I just did time. I wouldn't count in macronutrients or calories. I just did it with time.

Melanie Avalon: And then on the flip side, I know, we're not fans of calorie counting. But if you really, really did severely, restrictedly count your calories, that can work. It's not sustainable, and you'll probably gain it back, and it probably won't be fun, but it can work. And then, same with macronutrients. If you're really, really intense, monitoring your macronutrients even without the fasting or the calories that can probably work, too. I think the magic is finding the thing to focus on that works for you, and just really making it work for you. So, a lot of our listeners, for us, it's fasting. I like to add in the macronutrients as well for the health benefits of focusing on the macronutrients that fuel my body and then also, I really don't have to ever worry about overdoing it in my eating window because of focusing on macronutrients. So, that was a long answer but those are my thoughts.

Today's episode is sponsored by Green Chef. I'm sure you know by now, how much I love them. And we've used them since around 2017. Green Chef is America's number one meal kit for eating well with dinners that work for you, not the other way around. Green Chef's options for every lifestyle include keto, and paleo, vegan, vegetarian, fast and fit, Mediterranean, and gluten free. No matter what your eating preferences, Green Chef has flavorful good for you recipes that are sure to satisfy, and I can attest to that as can Chad. I choose the balanced living plan because that's a great way to describe how I like to eat and live. This week we're having creamy chicken and potato soup with corn, roasted red peppers, sharp cheddar cheese and chives. Sriracha-tamari beef bowls with jasmine rice, broccoli, cabbage, and carrots, peanuts, and sesame seeds, and roasted chickpea and carrot bowls with kale, rice with dates and feta, and creamy turmeric spiced vinaigrette.

But besides the fact that all meals are window worthy, what do I love the most, Green Chef saves me time by taking care of meal planning, grocery shopping, and most of the prep for me week after week. So, I have time to do other things. I also love that Green Chef's pre-portioned ingredients mean, I've reduced food waste by at least 25% compared to grocery shopping. Maybe, even more than that. I was not a good grocery shopper. Anybody relate to that? Go to greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and use the code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. That's greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and don't forget to use the promo code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. And now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: All right, are we ready for the next one?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so, we have one more question from Katie. The subject is: "IF, autophagy, and scar tissue." And Katie says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I, so, appreciate your podcasts and all the work, research, and love that you put into each episode. I've been doing one meal a day with clean fasting for a little over a month and I love it. I was doing about 16:8 for a couple of years without knowing it was a thing. I just knew I had weight loss results if I didn't eat after about four. I have been in the normal weight range for a couple of years after losing 90 pounds, but a recent bout with breast cancer led me to IF for the health and autophagy benefits.

My question is whether, you have ever heard about IF-induced autophagy having any effects on scar tissue. The reason I ask is that, I just noticed today that my scars are remarkably different. I am 58 and I've had a big ropey keloid scar on my side since kidney surgery as a teenager. Well, it has suddenly reduced to just a thin white scar. And my breast cancer surgery scar has almost completely disappeared. The surgeon even remarked a few days ago that it was pretty amazing. I really attribute it in great part to IF and I was curious if you have ever heard of this effect, presumably due to ramped up autophagy, thanks for all you do," Katie. And before we answer it, just sending you love and healing Katie with your breast cancer. I'm sorry.

Gin Stephens: Oh, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, I did a lot of research on this one but Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Okay. You have a lot of research. So, I'm just going to give you very quick short thoughts. The answer is yes. If you go back to, gosh, I can't remember what episode it was Donna Dube on Intermittent Fasting Stories. If you just type into any Google, Intermittent Fasting Stories, Donna Dube, D-U-B-E, is how you spell her last name, the episode will pop up. But if you listen to her episode, she's older than me, she's older than you, Katie. She talks about, she had a C-section scar that was thick and ropy. I mean, for decades, like 30 years after her kids-- 30 years, she had this thick ropy C-section scar. After doing IF, it was exactly like you said, a thin white scar. So, I can't think of another single cause for a scar to disappear other than autophagy knowing that we know that autophagy breaks down junky proteins that we don't need anymore, and what else would a scar be except, tissue we don't need anymore. So, to me, that's the most plausible explanation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, this was super interesting to me. I went down the rabbit hole. I was not able to find many, actually, really any studies on autophagy and scars that were there that had been there, and then, having them go away through autophagy later on.

Gin Stephens: Like, knowing how they fund scientific studies and why they do them, I can't imagine anyone would actually do one. Because it would take such a long time and it's a very specific thing, right? It doesn't sound like something they would study.

Melanie Avalon: But what's really interesting, I did find studies on fasting before or after wounds and how it affected the healing process, which relates to the scars. I also learned all about scars. I learned, this had never really occurred to me, Gin, but do you know the difference between scars from a surgery and then like fibrosis?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: So, scars from surgery is like it's done. So, you had a wound, the surgery, or whatever you had done, then, a scar forms, like the process is done and the scars purpose is to-- it's the healing process and then, eventually, the scar should go away over time. So, fibrosis, and it never really occurred to me what fibrosis was. Fibrosis is actually when the body is perpetually-- It's like, it's messed up. Like it's perpetually creating new scar tissue. The scar tissue forming process should be done and it just keeps creating scar tissue. So, I thought that was really, really fascinating and was interesting, and the reason it's important to talk about this is autophagy has different effects on those two different things.

So, I found a study called fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But it was basically looking at fasting effect on wound closure, scar formation, collagen deposition, skin cell proliferation, and other things. I believe this was in rats, but they did find that fasting patterns, well, they looked at before and after wound injury, that it helped with the wound healing process. So, it was definitely better for like the scar formation and all of that. So, that was promising. They didn't really talk about autophagy, specifically. When I went down the autophagy rabbit hole, that's how I ended up at this fibroid world because all of the studies on autophagy and scarring was mostly related to fibrosis and fibroids. The interesting thing was it is hotly debated.

Gin Stephens: As to whether it helps or not?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I'm just laughing so hard because I think the two people who have now told us about and I've heard from more than two that their scars went away but they'd not debate it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this is different.

Gin Stephens: I know it is. But still, I'm just laughing.

Melanie Avalon: So, this is not the scars.

Gin Stephens: I know. I get it. But I'm just laughing in general because they would hotly debate that this would happen for our people too, right? Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I'll further clarify so I don't confuse listeners. So, basically, the reason it's debated is the role of autophagy and fibrosis. So, in the body perpetually creating new scars, some studies show that inhibiting autophagy actually increases fibrosis. So, some of the studies find that autophagy actually plays a role in a way feeding that process. Listeners, I tried to read all of the studies more but they were really, really long. But the takeaway that I think I was taking from them was that, especially, since like I just said that the fibrosis process is the body unnecessarily creating scar tissue when it really, actually shouldn't be. Autophagy can actually be used to help that because it can be feeding that process. On flipside some of the studies do show that it helps reduce fibrosis. So, it's very confusing.

All of that to say, that's different than a scar on your skin at which I could not find studies about, but I think anecdotally, we do see that, like Gin just gave the example, I've noticed it in myself, a lot of people have reported it, and it makes sense in theory. I think the important thing though to focus on, especially for her question is, even if autophagy is not the main mechanism, we see it happening. So, I don't think you even need to necessarily know exactly why. But I think we can just anecdotally say that we see it with fasting and scar tissue. I mean she even saw it. And also, last thing, especially since she was fasting before, the study I talked about that was looking at fasting before or after wound healing, I found that both helped. I found that before was more effective. So, especially, since she was fasting before these procedures, it might have been even more so that that pre-fasting prior to the procedures that created a better healing process in the first place that more allowed for a scar that faded. And then, on top of that, after it can help with the wound healing.

Gin Stephens: I just think the fact that her scar faded from when she was a teenager is just incredible. If you wrote that in a book when you do intermittent fasting, your old scars that you've had for 30 years are going to go away. That sounds fake. [laughs] You'd never make that claim, but it's happening to people. Anyway, I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Quick plug as well. I become more interested in the fibroids as well because I've been researching it in relation to my serrapeptase product because there's a lot of studies on serrapeptase and fibroids, and being a fi-bri-no-lytic. Wait, fibrinolytic means it's breaking down fibroid, right?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. It sounds like it to me.

Melanie Avalon: I've been researching that process a lot more and when serrapeptase being an enzyme that breaks down proteins, it makes sense that when it goes into your bloodstream, it can actually help break down fibroids, and I've noticed-- I'm really excited because I wasn't sure if it was going to be affecting this mole that I have on my nose, but I think it is actually making it go down which is very, very impressive. But I think that might be another-- If you're looking to potentially address scars and such therapeutic enzymes like serrapeptase, it might be something as well to try and to synergize your fast and that whole process. So, mine is at avalonx.us if you'd like to get it. All right. Anything else about scars? Have you had any scars go away, Gin?

Gin Stephens: You know, I've often examined my scars trying to see and I don't really know. I didn't have like a ton of scars. But there is one of my hands that I've had since I was a little girl and I do think it's not as raised as it used to be. I cut my hand when I was at Girl Scout camp. [laughs] I was slicing an orange and I had a new Little Girl Scout knife, you know, and back then they just gave knives to children, and here's your knife. I'm like [noise] slice in my hand. Maybe, that's why they don't give knives to children anymore.

Melanie Avalon: Was it really traumatic?

Gin Stephens: I know. What you know, know, it wasn't traumatic. I just always had that scar from it. That was all and it wasn't that it was traumatic. It's just that I knew--

Melanie Avalon: It just sounds traumatic. You still have the scar this long.

Gin Stephens: I mean, I cut my hand pretty badly. I think it used to be thicker than it is now. Now, you can see it but it's not as thick. So, I don't know. I think it's pretty obvious if it's like a ropy scar from kidney surgery or from a C-section, it would be more apparent. Whereas for me, I just have little scars here and there.

Melanie Avalon: The other reason like speaking of the enzymes and this mole that I have on my nose, what's interesting about it is, its skin color. You can't even really see it. I see it more than anybody. People probably don't even notice it. The only time it super went away like it went away was when I was in my high pineapple phase. Like when I was eating a ton of pineapple which contains bromelain which is a protein digesting enzyme, it went away.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I know. When I stopped eating the pineapple and switched to-- I went low carb and then I went high carb again, but I had been eating blueberries. I wanted to go back onto a pineapple diet and see if it really does go away again. There's really a benefit to protein digesting potential of things be it autophagy, be it enzymes like serrapeptase, be it bromelain. Those really can work magic in your body for breaking down these old dysfunctional, unused proteins and scars.

Gin Stephens: We just have to give our body time to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: That's the thing. If you're eating all the time, like I did yesterday, we're recording the day after Christmas, I sure enjoyed my window. It was long, long, long. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: What did you have?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it was such a good day, though. We always start with-- I had this cheese and sausage balls recipe. It's like--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my mom used to make those.

Gin Stephens: We have them every Christmas. My grandmother made them. It's cheddar cheese, spicy sausage, and like a Bisquick kind of thing. Although, this year, we didn't use Bisquick brand because I didn't have any, so, we got a different brand, and it actually was better. So, you just mix that together, and bake it, and they're so good. So, I started to eat. They came out of the oven at 9 AM and they're never as good as the moment they come out of the oven. Like, they're going to be okay later or they're still going to be delicious but never saw. I'm like, "All right, window open." So, I started at 9 AM and then, we went over to my dad's for-- we have a brunch every year. So, we had the brunch, came home and probably I wasn't hungry again.

You know, I did a little nibbling here and there while we were at the brunch. Like, "Ooh, I'm going to have this olive and ooh, I want to have this." They had these pickled green beans that were spicy and I loved them. So, I kept eating those green beans. [laughs] Eating early in the morning, then, I was so tired. So, like mid-afternoon it was like 2 o'clock, she's like, "Do you want me to make some more coffee?" My stepmother and I'm like, "Yes." So, because my window was open, I had like more of a hot milkshake kind of coffee. It was like dessert. So, then, I was even more tired [laughs] because of the sugar. And then, I came home and I wasn't hungry at all till probably, I don't know, I was hungry again and had dinner maybe at like 6 PM. Leftovers from Christmas Eve dinner. It wasn't a lot but then, I closed my window. I did have some champagne. Chad and I played cards.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, it was really like 9 AM to maybe 7 PM by the time I finished with the champagne.

Melanie Avalon: Dry Farm Wines?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. It was Dry Farm. It absolutely was.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't had their champagne. They send it to me sometimes. I haven't had it though. Is it good? I re-gift it because I'm not a champagne person.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, but my fridge is fully stocked right now. [laughs] So that was good. But even so, it felt like I was eating for like forever, but 9 AM to 7 PM is 10 hours and really that's not long. You know, like, people are like eight-hour window is fasting. So, anyway, a 10-hour window, it felt like the longest window ever. But today, I'm still fasting. So, right now, I'm at let me think about it. All the time we're recording, if I've been fasting since seven, I'm at 20 right now.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how you know, if you have a more indulgent day, just how effective fasting can-- It really feels like it's just cleaning out. It can really, really quickly just reset you. I'm hesitant saying that because I think people can be like that you're trying to undo damage by over restricting and it's not that at all. It's just that when you have this fasted period, I'm just always really impressed by how fasting can make me feel.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, I think about ADF. Honestly, ADF is having an up day like yesterday, Christmas Day was like an up day, and then, today, I'm not having a down day today but I could. But that's the whole plan. Big eating day, small eating day, big eating day, small eating day, and you alternate it. It's not like you're binging and then making up for it, and binging and making up for it. I didn't binge yesterday. There was no binging. I ate longer, and more, and differently than I normally eat. Those green beans were probably one of the few vegetables I had. [laughs] Really, now that I think about it. Not a lot of vegetables on the plate. I did have pumpkin pie. Does that count? It's pumpkin. We're going to count it.

Melanie Avalon: Did you know that-- That's something else I learned. Oh, did you get your Farmer Lee Jones book?

Gin Stephens: I did. Oh, my God. That's a beautiful book.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it amazing?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really an encyclopedia of vegetables. That's how I described it. I have a friend who lives in UK. Shoutout to Lucy. She teaches cooking and she's a chef herself, and she always has the most beautiful food. She's in my Delay, Don’t Deny Community and was a Facebook moderator before that. So, I've known her for a while. But I was like, "Lucy, you need this book." She's like, "Well, I'm on cookbook restriction. I'm not allowed to get any more cookbooks." I'm like, "Well, this is not a cookbook, even though, it has recipes. I would not call it a cookbook." So, she asked for it for Christmas and I'm pretty sure she got it.

Melanie Avalon: The reason I'm thinking about it, I think he says that the majority of canned pumpkin, I think it's not pumpkin. I think that's yam, usually.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't care. I had yam. Whatever I had, it was orange and delicious. I have the best pumpkin pie recipe that I just found this here. It is so good. You know, how most pumpkin pie has a regular crust?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I'm now making it. I thought, wouldn't it be good with Graham cracker crust? So, I googled it to see if anyone had had that idea and I found, you know, Bobby Flay?

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought they are always Graham cracker crust. I thought I was going to say.

Gin Stephens: No, uh-huh, pumpkin pie is usually regular crust.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's funny. You said that and I was like, "Yeah, Graham cracker crust."

Gin Stephens: Maybe, that's the way your parents, your mom makes it. I don't know. But I've never seen it that way and our family, it's always just a regular crust. So, it's like, blah, you know? So, I googled that and it was a throwdown. He had that throwdown where he would have people competing to make the best pumpkin pie and this was, I think, the winning recipe. And of course, I did tweak the spices that I used a little bit. I did a little bit differently but homemade Graham cracker crust, I will never buy a Graham cracker crust again. I'd never made one from scratch. I mean, you're still starting with Graham crackers, right? But it's still, it's Clean(ish) because even though, they're processed Graham crackers, you're using real butter. Hence, it's got a lot fewer additives like a premade Graham cracker crust would. And it was so much more delicious. And then, the pumpkin filling, it's like real pumpkin, and heavy cream, and pumpkin pie spice, and oh, my God, it was good. Egg.

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. I know, we're like way over time but one more thing. One of the brands sent me a, it was like a credit for this, what was it called? Treat box or something. And you can go online and pick out what you want, and it's a lot of like normal stuff that people would get in treat boxes, like treats, and cheese, and fun little gadgets. But they had a meat and seafood section. I see why they do it, why the company does it because you can get more than the credit they gave you. So, you can make the box even bigger. So, I got for the box. I got wild caught salmon, and scallops, and cod, and it ended up costing me so much money because I was like, "Oh, I want all of this."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's how they get you.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But it was pretty funny. That's a good Christmas gift. So, all right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and then, again, the show notes, which we'll have links to everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode247. Alrighty. Well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I did just yawn because after having such a big eating day, I'm not quite as glycogen depleted as I usually am at hour 20.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I hear yeah. I'm going to tell you right before hang up one of the presents that I got that you will think is funny.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, I can't wait to hear it.

Melanie Avalon: But listeners can't know.

Gin Stephens: Oh. [laughs] Dun, dun, dun. All right.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 02

Episode 246: Window Placement, Protein Timing, Nitrites & Nitrates, Celery Powder, Colon Cancer, Mushroom Supplements, Turmeric & Berberine, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 246 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The Ultimate New Year’s Bundle, More Than 7 Pounds Of Meat Added To Your First Box For FREE!!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get The Ultimate New Year’s Bundle, More Than 7 Pounds Of Meat Added To Your First Box For FREE!!

Biohacker's Magazine

BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes From Our Great Interview With Robb Wolf!

Listener Q&A: Taylor - Window Placement Issues

Listener Q&A: MaryEllen - Celery Powder

Listener Q&A: Christine - Mushroom Supplement

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you wan to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 246 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm so excited. I have something I want to say that I'm excited about. But first, I want to tell you, thank you, for my Christmas present.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was going to ask you if it came.

Gin Stephens: It did, it did and I love it. It's a bread warmer, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have one?

Gin Stephens: No, I don't have one. I always just throw it, you know, bread in a basket and put like a dish towel over it and wrap it up. But this is official. It's like a stone that you warm in the oven, and it's in a little basket, and you put the bread on top of it. It's really going to keep the bread warm. So, that's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I saw it in a catalog and I was like, "Gin Stephens needs this."

Gin Stephens: And we're recording this the week before Christmas. Has yours come, yet?

Melanie Avalon: No. I don't think so. Unless, it's there today. Okay, I was sad because I ordered it and they had a version that had a top, but it was completely out of stock and wasn't going to come in until January. But I think, I don't know if I can order the top separately.

Melanie Avalon: I don't need the top because I'm probably going to still cover it with a dish towel or a cloth napkin. Let's say, it's Thanksgiving, and I have a bunch of people over, and I have all the rolls. I'll put them in there and they'll probably be bigger than the container like domed up a little bit, and then, I'll put something on top to hold it in there. So, a top would just like limit the amount of bread I could put in.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That makes sense because I know nothing about bread baking and I was like, "Why do they even make a version without a top?" But okay, that makes sense.

Gin Stephens: Well, but I usually have more bread [laughs] than that if I have a lot of people. So, that's perfect.

Melanie Avalon: Yay. I didn't even know this was a thing until I saw it. I was like, "That's cool."

Gin Stephens: Well, I never would have thought to get one but I love it. But I have another thing to share because the date that this episode is coming out is the day before Clean(ish) arrives. I'm so excited. I actually just got two big boxes of books from my publisher and the boxes said Gin Stephens, Clean(ish) on the outside. It's like the book. That's what they're sending to bookstores or wherever they're sending. It was like the official book box with what was inside.

Melanie Avalon: I would be more excited by the box.

Gin Stephens: I was so excited by the box. You know, it was like, "Do not put on sale till January 4th." It's like, "We're not kidding." I'm really excited. But it is so great to hold the final copy in my hand because the copy I had before was the early reader copy that it's not formatted properly, and it has the typos still in it. So, to have the real one, it looks so beautiful and I just am loving it. So, if you haven't pre-ordered everybody, this is honestly your last day to pre-order. And if you pre-order the electronic or the audible version, you'll have it tomorrow. But if you order the paperback, you'll have it soon as soon as Amazon can get to you, but pre-orders really help a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Did you see my story? I pre-ordered on Audible.

Gin Stephens: I actually did see that. Oh, this past week I got my list of what my pickups that I had to do from recording the audiobook and there were only six lines I needed to read again. It was like, I was amazed. Yes. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: What was it last time? Was it more?

Gin Stephens: I can't even remember. The producer was like, "This is amazingly short of a list." I credit that to the wonderful team that was with me while I was doing it. They caught most of it while I was live with them. We actually did it from home that they were on with me. I had an engineer and also director on with me. So, if I made a mistake, they caught it. So, it's not really that I was such an excellent reader, I'm not taking the credit. It was that I had a great team and they were fabulous.

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting. Can they send me a copy, so, I can take pictures and promote?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely, I will make that happen.

Melanie Avalon: So, I can promote it before it comes out.

Gin Stephens: Yep, we'll see if how fast we can get there. But yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, maybe not.

Gin Stephens: Well, we have a while because we're a couple of weeks out here in the real world, even though, listeners are one day away. But here's something else is exciting. Can I just share one more thing?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Sometimes, I like to make sure that Delay, Don't Deny isn't counterfeit. For example, being sold by a third-party person. So, I'll look at Amazon just to see how things are going, and I want to see how Clean(ish) is doing. The pre-order for is like new releases, how's it ranking? Fast. Feast. Repeat., though has been number one in weight loss on Amazon for weeks. Like, number one on weight loss.

Melanie Avalon: That's insane.

Gin Stephens: I'm just sitting here in my house in Augusta, Georgia like, "I've got the number one weight loss book on Amazon week after week." It's like shocking. It's done pretty well all along but you know, The Obesity Code has been number one all the time. Usually, The Obesity Code. Sometimes, Fast. Feast. Repeat., will be there. But it has been solid number one at least a month, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Do you think that's because of the growing interest in intermittent fasting?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do and I feel like, it's the go-to book that people are reading. For example, in the Delay, Don't Deny Community, if anyone's interested in finding that go to ginstephens.com/community. There's a link there. But it's our paid membership community that I'm just loving because I can spend a lot of time there. It's a great supportive place. But one of the members said, she found Fast. Feast. Repeat., because she went to her doctor's office for a routine visit and was talking about her health in general. He had a photocopy of the front of Fast. Feast. Repeat. taped to the-- You know, how to have cabinets in the exam room?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It was taped to the cabinet. So, she sent me a snapshot. She showed it to me. So, her doctor is got my book taped up in his exam room like a picture of it, like read that. That blows my mind. I'm like, "What? How is this even possible?" It's because I'm a teacher. That's the only thing. I'm not like a health guru or a big expert, but apparently teachers can write a good book. I just taught through it. That was it. So, anyway life is good. It feels a little bit like surreal. I don't know who that Gin Stephens is, but she's done a good job. [laughs] Oh, yeah, that's me.

Melanie Avalon: Every now and then, I'm like, "What if I wake up?" And this was actually all a dream. I have that moment sometimes.

Gin Stephens: You know, like, right this minute, it's the five-year anniversary of Delay, Don’t Deny. Not today. But five years ago, I was putting the finishing touches on it today as of this recording day. I was finishing it. I was waking up in the middle of the night like editing in my sleep, still finishing it. It came out December 31st of 2016. So, we're five years into Delay, Don’t Deny and it changed my entire life having that book.

Melanie Avalon: That's a shocking amount of-- Like, I don't know, the years go by so fast, but that is so much. I don't want to say progress, but so much. I mean so much has happened just in those five years.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You know, 2017 was the year we met and started doing the podcast. 2018 is when What When Wine came out, right?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: 2018 is when I started Intermittent Fasting Stories. It just has grown and grown.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I'm so grateful to every listener, everyone who's read the book, everyone who's recommended it to somebody else, and everyone who's shares intermittent fasting without fear, because that's why it's so popular and widespread. It's the people. This is a true grassroots effort. You know, a teacher from Augusta, Georgia, writing a number one weight loss book that is growing and growing, and the community is growing and growing, and here we are. Happy New Year. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. It couldn't be possible without our community.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. The community is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: It really, really is. Especially, I listen to a lot of stuff about people moaning and groaning about social media. I understand because I think social media is creating so many issues today and it's a very toxic environment in general. But my experience with it, it's just so wonderful. My community and everything, and so I'm really grateful for everything.

Gin Stephens: My Facebook community was 99.9% wonderful. But when you have almost half a million people, even 0.1% hurt, [laughs] which is why it got too big for me. Someone said, I don't know if I said this on the podcast before. Someone said, "Oh, Gin got too big for Facebook." I'm like, "I thought, I was too good for Facebook or something?" I'm like, "Actually, it's the opposite. Facebook got too big for me. I couldn't manage it anymore and I just couldn't and have a good quality of life." But I'm grateful to the time I spent on Facebook.

And even that 0.1% of roughness was worth all the headache and there were tears, it was hard. I'm grateful for the whole experience because I'm really enjoying the private community. Like I said, we're over 2,000 members there, since we switched it to the new, new platform, which is so good. We're loving it, and everyone is really finding the support we wanted all along. But anyway, life is good, and I'm grateful, and intermittent fasting makes it easy just to feel good in my life, too, right? It's the gift that keeps on giving.

Melanie Avalon: I was reflecting on that actually, this morning, because I was thinking about how before intermittent fasting with the holidays, even when I was doing like low carb, I guess, it was just low carb because when I did paleo, I was already fasting. In any case, before intermittent fasting, whenever the holidays would come around, I would be so nervous about weight gain, and all of the holiday food, and recovering. I was just thinking about, I'm like, "There's no difference to me in the holidays now than there is the rest of the year." If anything, I do better during the holidays.

Gin Stephens: I do. You know I don't weigh. I haven't weighed for years now. Probably if I did weigh, would see weight gain over the holidays, because I do indulge more. Because there's just different kinds of events and different kinds of food. I have a fully festive season and then, that season is over. [laughs] I don't stress about it and any weight gain I do have goes away without me stressing over it. I don't like have to tighten up my belt January or get back on the wagon. I'm actually tired of the festivities by the time New Year's Eve is over. I'm like, "Okay, thank goodness." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I think, there's two types of approaches like who you still indulge more but it doesn't create these unchangeable ramifications. But then, like for me, I don't really indulge more because I literally don't crave it anymore. I'm just as happy eating what I normally eat that there's no point for me to have other things. So, they both work.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to make eggnog today, probably. Yeah, I wouldn't normally be having eggnog. I mean, we're still the week before Christmas here. So, when we're recording this, so, I'm going to make some RumChata eggnog. [laughs] We're going to enjoy it. But I'm not going to make eggnog all year long. Yeah, it just feels like we're sitting by the Christmas tree, I feel like, we should have something festive. Will's here. He's staying here at our house for a little while. He's got a house that he's been living in, but he was feeling lonely. He's like, "Can I just come back home?" He's 22 and he's got his cat, and he's like, "You know--" I think, he's had all the fun and he's like, "Yeah, that wasn't really as much fun as I was expecting." You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon: With college?

Gin Stephens: Well, he's not been in college. He only went to college for a year and a quarter. He's just been here living at home for a while, but then he moved out. He moved out, I guess, two years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Gosh.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. He moved out two years ago and he's been living on his own for two years, but not in college. He's had all the fun he could have and he's like, "Okay, I'm done. Done with that if that makes sense."

Melanie Avalon: Is he not finishing college?

Gin Stephens: No. He dropped out of college after a year and a quarter. There's nothing that he wants to do in college right now. So, he's my musician, he's my artist.

Melanie Avalon: Artsy?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, he's playing music, he's got a band, and he likes to write music. But he's here at home and it just feels best of having him here. So, we're having our little holiday festive time. [laughs] So, what's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm super excited because I'm on the cover of Biohackers Magazine right now.

Gin Stephens: That is really exciting. Is that like a paper magazine that you can actually get? Or is it a digital magazine?

Gin Stephens: It's digital.

Gin Stephens: It's still exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can get it on Kindle or Google Books. I made a redirect link for it if you want to get it on Amazon. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/biohackersmagazine or their website is biohackersmagazine.com. I'm on the cover.

Gin Stephens: That is so exciting.

Melanie Avalon: You're a great biohacker. [laughs] It has like an exclusive interview and I talk about fasting and wine, and I talk about the pandemic, and sleep, and it's really, really great. I had a really fun moment. So, it's created by a guy named Jean. I guess, his last name is Fallacara. But he's super incredible, he's really intense. He's all into calisthenics bodybuilding world. If you look at his Instagram, it's very impressive. So, it's his magazine and he wanted to have me on the cover. Yeah, so, that was exciting. But then something else that was fun was, I went on his IG Live this past week, and it's so interesting because Gin, have you done an IG Live?

Gin Stephens: I have. I don't love them. I feel silly talking [laughs], I don't know, I don't like it. Yes, I have.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, it's interesting, because you can see how many people are popping in and out. So, it was just an interesting experience. I've done them before, but not with like a really big audience. But he has like thousands of people who watch his Lives. So, you see this number ticking of like, now, there's 2,000 people watching, now there's 1,500. It changes so fast, because people on Instagram, it's just so interesting how fast people's attention is. So, it's so interesting to see that number. I was getting so fixated on the number like, "How fast it was changing?" Then, I was comparing it to this experience with a podcast because we have a lot more than 2,000 people who listen to this show. But there's something different about it not being Live. I was much more aware of the audience.

Gin Stephens: Doesn't it feel a little frantic? To me, it does when I'm on a Live.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was much more aware of the audience and feeling watched or listened to, compared to this where there's thousands, and thousands, and thousands of people listening because they're not listening right now. It's very interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it really, really is. I don't even mind being on a radio show. I just don't like people looking at me live on a video. I don't know why. Looking into a camera like I'm actually better in front of a live audience than I am.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, me, too.

Gin Stephens: I don't mind being in front of a live audience. I'm going to do an event in January in Greenwood, South Carolina where I'm going to talk to just you know, people about intermittent fasting. For some reason sitting in front of the little screen trying, I don't know. [laughs] It's not my thing. I don't like doing lives at all. I don't like them. So, I just don't do them unless, I mean, I will if someone asks me and it's a big thing, but I'm nervous. I don't like it, it's out of my comfort zone anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Same page. So, yep. So, we'll put links to everything that we've talked about thus far in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. One more thing Gin to talk about before we jump in. So, this is the brand-new year, the first episode of 2022. So, something that's pretty exciting is we work with-- that's another thing to be grateful for. All the amazing brands we work with on this show, especially, just how many brands that are out there, and it's just really wonderful that we have such long-term relationships with so many companies, and its things we really, really truly care about and love. So, I wanted to announce that we have a new brand that I think is going to be throughout the entire year.

As listeners know, I'm a huge, huge fan of bone broth. I just think it's so, so healing for the body. Basically, it's a concentrated nutrient rich broth made from bones, and you get collagen, and so many nutrients that really, especially, can heal the gut lining. To clarify, I'm not talking about bone broth fasting. Bone broth is not fasting friendly. But I think, if you enjoy it, it's one of the best ways to break your fast actually, because at the end of a fast, your digestive tract is primed for receiving nutrients and it's the exact nutrients that your gut really needs to heal the lining.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, have them as a window opener. That would be a great recommendation. Bone broth window open, yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it'd be perfect for that, especially, if you have digestive issues, but really just in general. There are a lot of really great companies out there. Well, not a lot. There are a few great companies out there. But one of my new favorite companies is a fabulous woman named Melissa Bolona. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I can put a link to that in the show notes. She's also an actress, entrepreneur, started the bone broth company because she realized as an actress, she was having a lot of digestive issues, and skin problems, and she started drinking bone broth, and it had an amazing effect on her health, and her wellness and her, like, just perception of her vitality and all of that, especially, needing to be camera ready. So, she started her own company called Beauty & The Broth, and what's so cool about it is--

I know all of this having had her on the show. Originally, she was going to make the way most companies do, which is the actual bone broth. But that's actually really expensive to ship as you guys can imagine. When she was in a meeting trying to figure out formulations, she saw that they had the bone broth samples concentrated down and she was like, "What is that?" They're like, "Oh, well, that's just how we concentrate it down in the in between stage." So then, she was like, "Wait, can't we do that, if that's going to happen anyways?" So, yeah, so, she basically came up with this whole idea to sell bone broth concentrate that ships to your home.

Gin Stephens: I mean, that's genius. Because you're not shipping water. That's like the cleaning products that I use now. They send me the concentrate and I mix it up myself. So, it's like much better for the environment. You're not shipping giant packages of water into someone's house.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's much more environmentally friendly. Yeah, so it really is genius. It's much better for the environment. And then, the actual broth itself meets all of the criteria that you guys know I love. So, it's USDA organic, which I love. So, Melissa and I are really, really good friends now. I love hearing her lament about, ooh, the things that you have to go through to get USDA certification is just insane. So, it's USDA organic, it's shelf stable, it has no preservatives, oh, it has no salt added. That's huge. I was looking at all the other bone broths that I had in my freezer from other companies, because like I said, there are really great other companies but they all had salt. This one has no salt. It's delicious.

She has two forms right now. She has a grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and then, she has a free-range antibiotic and hormone free chicken. Again, both of those are completely organic. The other great thing is, you can take them on the go with you, because they're in these packets. So, she ships a reusable mug made of rice, which is so cool. So, environmentally friendly. And you can just heat it up and cook it in the rice. So, no plastic with that cup. I love it. My listeners, ever since I aired that episode have loved it. So, I'm just so excited to have her sponsoring so many episodes this year. So, you guys will be hearing a lot about it and definitely, definitely try it. You will love it. We do have a code for listeners. So, her website is thebeautyandthebroth.com and the code, MELANIEAVALON will get you 15% off. So, definitely check that out.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean, fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean, fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued, or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in.

These supplements are formulated to give your body the exact electrolyte balance that you need including sodium, magnesium, and potassium because electrolytes are actually charged minerals that conduct electricity to power your nervous system. So, not only are they regulating your hydration status, they're actually determining how your cells conduct energy. If you want to learn all about the science of electrolytes as well as a lot of commonly asked questions like, can you just drink to thirst, is low sodium or high sodium dangerous, how should you supplement with electrolytes based on your diet and physical performance? Definitely, check out the interview I did with Robb Wolf on this podcast. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I cannot tell you how many times I get listener feedback about people who have tried his LMNT and told me that it basically was the thing that felt like it turned their body back on. It's honestly, truly incredible. And it's not just you guys, LMNT is actually the exclusive hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, also dozens of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams use and recommend LMNT, Navy SEALs, FBI Sniper teams, Marines, a lot of tech leaders, it is basically the supplement to get when it comes to electrolytes.

Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean, fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Taylor. The subject is: "Window placement issues." Taylor says, "Hello, ladies. I have a lot of windshield time while working and I'm so glad that I found y'all's podcast. Y'all are wonderful to listen to and very informative. I am a 28-year-old male, father of three girls, two of them being twins. So, between home and work, I have very little extra time. Being so short on time, I go to the gym at 5 AM to make sure I get the exercise in, but I don't start my window until 11 AM for the 11:6 window. I guess, my main question is, what is better between eating after the workout or before bed to supplement my body?"

Gin Stephens: I guess, Melanie, he's asking like, "When does he need the protein, you think?" What do you think he means by supplement my body?

Gin Stephens: I just took it to mean like, what eating window should he be doing in general given the fact that he's exercising at 5 AM? So, should he be having an earlier window?

Gin Stephens: Closer to that?

Melanie Avalon: He says, or before bed. Well, I guess, he probably goes to bed earlier, too. He's getting up that early.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, he is getting up early.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, should he have like an earlier breakfast-lunch window you think or should you have like a lunch-dinner window?

Gin Stephens: I don't think there is a best answer for this Taylor, other than how do you feel. If you work out at 5 AM and then it's very easy for you to wait till 11 to eat, and that's a great time to open your window, and it fits with your routine, and then, you eat from 11:6, and then you close your window, and you continue to feel good, and then, you go to bed feeling good, then that sounds like ideal. Ideal is, what feels like a lifestyle to you, so that you don't want to be white knuckling it through your fasts on either end of your fast. If you eat too early, you might be too hungry later in the day. If you eat too late, you might be really hungry after your workout more like 11, 12 you're starving. So, don't fix what ain't broken, right? [laughs] If 11:6 feels good with your 5 AM workout, keep doing it.

On the flipside, if you find you're so hungry that you just can't wait till 11, then, maybe you need to shift a little earlier. Or, if you're closing at six, and then you're so hungry at eight you can't stand it, shift it a little later. It's just really all about finding the sweet spot that works for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I cannot agree more. A really important question or actually, it is probably pretty important would be with the exercise, the type of exercise, and the goals of the exercise. Because he doesn't say anything about his stats, like he doesn't say if he's trying to lose weight, or if this is like muscle building, which are all different situations. Because for fat burning, for example, you might get the maximum fat burning benefit if you do wait longer to eat. You stimulated a lot of fat burning from the exercise, and then, you're really ramping up the fat burning mode with the fasting. But if it's not about that at all, it's like what Gin said. It would really be what's more comfortable for you.

One thing we do know we've talked about a lot in this show before is, there's a thought out there that you have to eat immediately after working out and a lot of that is likely not accurate. So, some people think on the fueling side of things, "Oh, you need to refuel right after working out." But especially, for like weight loss goals and things like that, that's not necessarily needed. Especially, if you're in the fat burning state, you have energy coming from yourself. It's not like you completely run out and then don't have energy. Then, for the muscle building, the anabolic window can be up to 24 hours. Meaning, you do have 24 hours to take in your protein to build muscle.

The only thing about building muscle per se is, there is the argument that can be made and this wouldn't exactly be super applicable for Taylor, because he already has a longer window that could encompass two meals. But it is possible that if you're actually trying to build muscle that you might benefit from multiple muscle protein synthesis moments. So, you might need a longer window with punctuated protein intake compared to one shorter window with a large protein intake. That's more for when you're getting into body building, muscle building, things like that. But yeah, it really is what's working for you. So, if you're doing what you're doing, and you're not hungry, and you're sleeping well, because sleep would the other thing, a lot of people adjust their windows to address their sleep habits. But if what you're doing is working, just do what's working.

Gin Stephens: All right, I think, we got it. We have a question from Mary Ellen and the subject is: "celery powder." She says, "Hi ladies, I've been intermittent fasting for a few years and I love it. I recently had my first colonoscopy, and they found a lesion that will need to be removed in a separate colonoscopy. So, I am now changing my diet to be more conscious about the threat of colon cancer. I followed the Atkins diet for about 10 years prior to starting IF. So, I have a history of eating a ton of meat, beef, chicken sausage, cold cuts, anything that didn't have carbs. Thanks to you. I, now know about grass-fed, grass-finished meat and I will be giving up all cold cuts. I've been doing some research on uncured products like the bacon from ButcherBox. I'm finding that companies are now using celery powder in their uncured products instead of nitrates. This sounds like it's becoming controversial, because celery powder isn't necessarily safe in the way it's processed, but is being listed as organic. Melanie, have you looked into this at all? I know that you do a lot of research on the things you eat. Would you be able to give me any input if celery powder is truly safe? Thanks," Mary Ellen.

Melanie, this is just me adding, I'm interested to hear what you have to say because I haven't looked into celery powder at all. I don't eat even like bacon. I rarely eat any kind of bacon or cold cut or sausage. Well, I do eat like sausage but that's different. But when I say a sausage, I mean like a summer sausage, like a hot dog or you know what I mean by that, kind of sausage?

Melanie Avalon: Like hot dogs, yeah?

Gin Stephens: Well, but not exactly even like hot dogs. It is more like Hickory Farms kind of sausage or something. I'll use loose sausage that's very-- It's basically just ground pork with maybe some whatever in there. So, I'll be interested to see this. But I really don't eat a lot of cured meat. I can't even think of the last time I had bacon.

Melanie Avalon: Same here. I was excited to get this question for the reason that you just said, Gin, because I didn't know the answer. I was like, "Oh, that's actually I want to know this." So, I did a lot of research. First of all, I'm happy that you found the lesion that you had that colonoscopy. It's really wonderful that now you can be changing your diet accordingly. So, that's really, really wonderful that you found that. When it comes to meat and colon cancer, I'm not going to go into huge tangent on that. So, meat has been associated with colon cancer. The presentation of the studies has been a little bit overhyped because of material released by the WHO about meat being potentially a carcinogen. We talked about this on a recent episode, but the correlation is much stronger with processed meats, the correlation with actual meat, if you look at the actual data and what the numbers are saying, and especially, I think, if you take in factors like diet context, and the healthy user bias, and things like that, I'm not really personally worried about the meat-cancer connection. But the processed meat does have a lot more evidence behind it.

One reason for that is because of the added nitrites and nitrates. That's what we're getting to with the celery powder here, that whole conversation. There's nitrites and nitrates. They're different things but they can have the same effect. They are added to meat for a few different reasons when they're curing meat to make processed meat like bologna, and bacon, and sausages, and things like that. So, they help preserve the meat, they work as anti-microbials. So, they can get rid of a lot of potentially problematic bacteria that can grow in meat, they give them meat a pinkish color. So, bologna, for example, would actually be great if it didn't have--

Gin Stephens: Oh, gross. [laughs] I'm sorry. That just sounds-- I don't think anyone would eat grey bologna. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know they extend the shelf life and they also add a flavor, and I thought this is really interesting. I was researching the flavor that they add. So, there's like this distinctive flavor that's in all processed meats, and it's really hard to put your finger on it, and they don't actually know what part of the nitrites and nitrates cause it, but it is from that. So, the problem is that, when these nitrites and nitrates I'm lumping them together, but when they're exposed to high heat, or iron, or if they bond with protein, those are things that are often found in meat. So, protein, iron, and then, meat is often heated, they can convert to nitrosamines and those are the compounds linked to cancer. So, nitrites and nitrates themselves are not carcinogens, but nitrosamines that they can form are.

Our dietary load of nitrates and nitrites is actually about 50% to 75%. This was data from the UK and France, not the US. But this seems to be the general idea across the board. So, about 50% to 75% of our overall dietary intake every day is not from meat, it's actually from vegetables and water. It's a very small amount, even if you're eating processed meats that comes from meat. That said, it is in a concentrated form in the meat and like I said it is linked to cancer. So, meats that are cured with added nitrates and nitrites, they often have vitamin C or vitamin E added because those antioxidants can actually stop that reaction. It can actually stop them from becoming nitrosamines. So, I found one really fascinating study and it said that, if there's a ratio of antioxidants of 2:1, so, two times antioxidants to nitrite, it actually will completely inhibit nitrosamine formation.

If you have adequate antioxidants that formation won't take place. I will not add added nitrates and nitrites to your diet. I do think that that's probably a reason that processed foods are linked to colon cancer. Okay, celery. So, in order to avoid this whole issue, companies started looking for alternatives to preserve meats and have the same effect. And celery powder is actually very, very highly concentrated in nitrites because remember how I said before that our vegetable intake is actually usually our highest source of exposure every single day. So, they're very high in celery.

The controversy is that, when nitrates and nitrites are added in the form of celery powder, it's not considered added nitrate or nitrite. So, the product can actually say that it's uncured, even though, it's technically cured, it's just cured through the celery powder instead. The product can also say because of the regulations and I'm not going to stop myself and going on a tangent, but it's like the supplement industry like the nuances of regulations and how things can get twisted. The celery can be non-organic and it can be added for this purpose to an organic product. Why is that a problem? The EWG actually did a study and the vegetable with the highest amount of pesticides and chemicals was non-organic celery.

Gin Stephens: Probably, because it is so watery, that makes sense. Like it just holds on to things, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It concentrates all of them. The irony is that you could have some organic "uncured meat," and then, you flip it over, and it has celery powder. So, it actually still has nitrates and nitrites and that celery powder is likely not organic. Then, on top of that, a further issue is that, when the nitrates and nitrites are in the form of added nitrates and nitrites, they have to be regulated. So, there's a maximum amount that can be in the product. When it's in the form of celery, it doesn't have to be regulated. So, we don't know but there could actually be way more nitrates and nitrites in theory, if celery powder is added because there's no regulation. All that said, some people say, "Well, it's from celery powder. So, it's more natural and it has probably more natural antioxidants and it's not as problematic."

I thought for sure there would be like a really good study comparing celery powder to added nitrates and nitrites. So, I did find one study comparing them and it found that, when celery juice was added, used as a nitrite it created between 30 to 60 milligrams per kilograms of residual nitrate levels compared to 90 for added nitrites. So, somewhere between 300% or I guess, we're doing it reverse somewhere between 50% to 300% more in added versus celery. So, where do we go from here? Basically, I think that, oh, and then, one last point is that, the nitrites and the nitrates from celery can have the same effect. They can still convert to nitrosamines. It's really going to be the context of, are they in a context of heat, of iron, of proteins, and are there ample antioxidants? So, where do we go from here? I think that it's definitely something to be wary of. So, we are huge, huge fans of ButcherBox. They are actually a sponsor on today's show. They do have a bacon. For example, that is said to be like nitrate free, but that's because it has no added nitrates or nitrites. It still has the celery powder.

If I had to choose between bacon with added nitrates and nitrites from pure form, chemical formulation compared to the celery, I would still probably choose the celery. I'm just more comfortable with that but that said, I think, it's really important just to have this education and make the choice for yourself. What's probably most important with all that is the actual meat itself. So, with ButcherBox's bacon, for example, like, it's pasture raised, it's sustainable, it doesn't have added sugar. So, if you're like a bacon person and you're having bacon, I would look at the entire context and make your decision with all of this in mind. But if you are super concerned about colon cancer like Mary Ellen, it probably would just be best to avoid processed meats. So, if you're ordering ButcherBox, maybe don't get the bacon maybe get everything else. That was really, really long, Gin. What are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Well, you know, that just goes to show they can hide all sorts of things with innocent sounding words. We find that in all products, foods, cleaning products, personal care products, I talked about this a lot in Clean(ish). But here's the way I look at it. Think of a continuum of foods, right? Okay, I'm going to put bologna on the far end of ultra, ultra-processed probably don't want it. And then, on the opposite end of the continuum would be like, a slab of meat from a pig, like the actual just the pork, right? Just pork, and you're going to do something with it. Then, along that continuum, you've got things that are closer to the bologna, things that get closer just the pork itself. And that's the whole part like I talk about being Clean(ish). Where are you going to fall on that continuum?

You could only eat the whole pork and that's. I was going to say, you couldn't but then I thought Melanie probably does, [laughs] decided not to say that. But most of us are probably not going to only just eat the pork. We're going to be on that continuum somewhere. So, I think like a ButcherBox kind of bacon is definitely closer to that, just the pork side. I just tried to be closer to that when I can. If you have a real health concern that you're really working on, then, you might want to err on the side of not having any processed meats at all. But it's really easy to avoid the super processed ones like the bologna's and the standard kind of bacon or things like that, the lunch meats. It's easy to not have those and just get closer to the real food continuum. You can start going down the rabbit hole of now you're afraid to eat anything and you're just eating like a slab of meat and vegetable. I don't want you to live like that, unless that is how you love to live. If it feels really good and that's how you like to eat, eat that way. But I'm going to eat bacon, I don't eat a lot of it. And that's why, I don't stress out so much.

If something happened to my food delivery box, that happens from time to time, it will get lost in transit. The packing company will lose it. I don't know. So, we have to scramble for meals. We sometimes do breakfast for dinner, and Chad will buy bacon. It doesn't happen very often, thank goodness. But you'll buy like a really good quality, high-quality bacon, and I'm sure it's got celery powder in it, but it's on that continuum closer to the better side. But we don't eat that a lot. So, I'm not even at all worried about it. Because we're getting the best bacon we can find locally. It's not an everyday thing. So, it's just a matter of coming to terms with what you can feel comfortable with. If you were rarely eating bacon, then, I wouldn't hesitate to use one that had a celery powder kind of a thing in it. If it's an everyday thing, then it's time to be a little more choosy about it. That's really how I decide.

If I were at a restaurant, and when I go out to eat, we don't have anything around me that's like super organic or you can't even find it. So, I don't even like investigate. If I wanted to eat a burger that had bacon on it, I would just eat it, and it would be closer to that bologna side of the continuum, but it's very rare. On the flip side, if I were someone who ate out a lot, I would be more choosy about what I chose to eat there. So, that's just a long way of saying, I think, the amount that you eat it, how much it's in your diet would determine how much you would want to be concerned about it. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I was actually thinking that. So, I'm glad that you that you said that for sure. Yeah, and then just like keeping in mind the context of everything, so, having some bacon that's like super, super cooked and burned with other iron and high heat is going to be a lot more problematic than like some bacon in the context of a salad or like the context can make a huge difference. So, especially, if you're adding those antioxidants.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Oh, and by the way, I would eat bologna. Probably, not ever going to buy it but we used to eat fried bologna sandwiches and they were so good.

Melanie Avalon: See, fried bologna would probably not-- [laughs] That would be an example of.

Gin Stephens: You would not eat that ever.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, it'd be an example of a way to really increase the nitrosamine potential.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I'm sure, it would be awful. I'm sure, it would be. But I'm cleanish. I would not probably eat that a lot. But if I were somewhere, let's imagine I'd had a couple of beers. Okay, hypothetically, [laughs] and there was like a fried bologna sandwich. Oh, my gosh, I would totally eat it. But it's not a day-to-day thing. So, I wouldn't stress about it. Like you're not ruining everything by having that one time. But probably, I 100% would not eat fried bologna sandwiches every day of my life and I wouldn't feel guilty if I ate one. It's all about keeping your toxic load low as over time by making good choices most of the time.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Clean(ish), available now. [laughs] Tomorrow, available tomorrow. [laughs]

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Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Christine and the subject is: "Mushroom supplement." And Christine says, "I read that mushroom like Reishi, Cordyceps, etc., supplements should be taken while fasting but I really want to check with you first because I can't find information on this anywhere else."

Gin Stephens: All right. So, here's just a little quick tip. You can literally read that anything is okay to have while fasting like somewhere, just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean it's right with fasting. Because there is the train of thought that as long as you have fewer than 50 calories, it doesn't break a fast. I mean, I do not. Neither Melanie nor I agree with that. But that would mean you could literally have 50 calories, 49 calories of pizza, and it wouldn't break the fast. So, anyway, a lot of bad information out there. But I'm glad you're asking us, Christine. So, here's the thing. What you know, it depends if you're taking it as a supplement, we've got three fasting goals. We want to keep our insulin low by not taking anything that our body's going to think is food, anything that's going to-- we also don't want to stimulate digestion, we want to tap into our stored fat for fuel. So, we don't want to take in anything that's going to interfere with that. We want to keep autophagy going strong, we don't want to take in any source of protein, we want our autophagy to be maximized during the fast. For me, personally, my rule of thumb is, if it's food like I don't have it during the fast. So, I don't take supplements during the fast. Now, I will say, back when I took serrapeptase, oh, by the way, Melanie, I ordered some of your serrapeptase, it's coming.

Melanie Avalon: Oh really? Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I ordered some. I want to see what it does. I'm just going to try it. Anyhow, so anyway, that is coming in. I will take that during the fast because it has to be kept away from food. Other than that, I don't take any supplements and I absolutely wouldn't take any supplements that were made from food, just personally as a rule of thumb. So, if I wanted to supplement with mushrooms, first of all, I would just probably eat mushroom. But I know these are some specialized mushrooms that have special properties. I would still keep it in my eating window. That's what I would do. Anything that's food like are made out of food, I just didn't like that sounds like food. I'm going to keep it during my eating window. So, what do you think about that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I agree as well. It's interesting. Somebody was posting in my group yesterday asking about taking turmeric and serrapeptase at the same time. I was thinking about this concept, because turmeric, people take it as a supplement. But to me, turmeric, I still think of it as a food, like a spice. For me, anything that is food related like Gin said, I would not take fasted.

Gin Stephens: Here's something like turmeric for example. Can I just pop in with this? It actually works with food. I feel like, you would have better results from turmeric taking it with food. So, many things work synergistically with food. So, actually taking it in the isolated state is like not as good. It's not better.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. The difference to clarify with serrapeptase like, so, why is it magical? Like why can we take it during the fast? It's not a food. It's an enzyme. It's not providing any energy. I don't know what else to say besides that it's an enzyme. So, it's going into your bloodstream, and it's working on cells, and it's actually, I think, it synergistically works with fasting incredibly, because it's up regulating processes that your body would be doing while fasting. Like, breaking down old proteins and it's very much like in a way, it's like amplifying the fast, I think. So, anything that's like nutrient or food related, I would definitely take as part of your eating window and I agree, Gin that I think it works synergistically with your food when it's food related.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, like turmeric and black pepper work together. I mean, you would cook with both of them. If you're making a dish that had turmeric and would probably add pepper, because it's delicious and that's how we cook. But they actually, those compounds work synergistically together and provide more benefits together than they would in isolation. So, that's the thing. If we just stick with food, and the herbs, and the spices, and just keep them in the context of food, they're helping you get the phytochemicals out of the food. They work together and they give you more benefits together than if you're just popping a pill in isolation. I don't know. We've gotten said it like, we want to just take a pill for it or have it used in isolation when the magic is with the food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, so, I'm actually super on the fence about the turmeric, black pepper combination, because that is often proposed as a way to make it more bioavailable. But then, I've listened to research saying, "The Black pepper does something with inhibiting some enzyme and something, something, something." I have to find the research that I was looking at. But basically, it's debated if that's actually what you want. So, that's why, I actually get nervous about concentrated pills that are black pepper-curcumin, or black pepper-turmeric combinations. But like in the context of a meal, adding pepper and adding turmeric, I just think it naturally regulates itself and probably does what it needs to be doing when it's in like its Whole Foods form. I actually get a little bit nervous with trying to figure out the specific mechanism of action of turmeric, and then, concentrating it.

For example, with turmeric, they'll often make curcumin supplements which is basically the active ingredient in turmeric that is often thought to be the cause of the health benefits. So, they'll make curcumin supplements. But then, the literature on curcumin isn't exactly what you would think it would be for all of the benefits that we see with turmeric. I think, it's probably because there's probably a lot going on synergistically with a lot of stuff in turmeric that just taking the isolated curcumin, it might not be having that same effect.

Gin Stephens: I, 100% talk about this in Clean(ish). No, yeah, Clean(ish), like we're going to talk about that. Yes, Clean(ish). [laughs] What's the name of my book, where am I, what am I doing? Anyway, in Clean(ish), I talk about this. We think that we know what is doing it. Like you just said, we think we've identified, this is the compound in turmeric that makes it so magical. Let's isolate it, and then, take just that. But really in these herbs, and spices, and plant foods like a tomato, there are thousands of phytochemicals in there. So, there are actually some studies, I can't remember exactly what it was about. But there was a study that I talked about that, off the top my head, they isolated the compound, and they're like, "This is going to be beneficial" and it actually made people worse when they isolated it. I can't remember what it was. But that just goes to show, we really don't know as much as we think we do. It's not like that's the one magical thing in there that's providing the benefit. It's really all of it is in there doing stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, actually, the massive rabbit hole I'm in right now is, I've been researching for berberine, because berberine is this compound that has incredible effects and studies for regulating blood sugar levels, reducing A1c. People focus on it for blood sugar, but it does so many other things as well. Now, they make dihydrate berberine, which is like, it's one of the metabolites of berberine because it is supposed to have greater effects on blood sugar levels and be easier to absorb. I'm so haunted and torn right now about, is it possible that there are things in berberine besides the dihydrate berberine that maybe we're missing out? It's really hard to know.

Gin Stephens: I would say highly likely. That's highly likely. Because whenever we try to keep isolating, drilling down to that one thing, you're missing all those other things like, that you don't even know what they're doing, and they might be really, really important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, not that I'm developing a berberine or anything, but I'm like trying to figure out the answer to this question. But yeah, it's really, really interesting and I think, context is so important and so key. Oh, and I want to throw in a link because if anybody would like to get my serrapeptase, you can get it at avalonx.us. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. Again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode246. You can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and I think, that is all the things. And Gin, happy launch night. So, for listeners listening today, is it like at midnight that it starts?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I don't know, like when it downloads on your Kindle, I have no idea. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you ever do a midnight launch, just take into consideration. People might not like it.

Gin Stephens: Look, I got nothing to do with this launch. I just wrote the book and turned it all in. The publisher is 100% in charge. If there's something wrong with a copy of your book, don't email me. I didn't know. That does happen sometimes. [laughs] Printing error, go back to where you bought it. They will be able to help you. I cannot help you. Believe it or not. I'm just the one who wrote the book. But in the publishing world, that's less important than you would think. I mean, no, not really. But you know what I mean? There's a lot of people with their hands on this along the way.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, congrats in advance. I'm very excited for you. This is very exciting. What a way to start the New Year?

Gin Stephens: I know. I'm so excited and scared. I'm scared.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, don't be scared, but I think all feelings are fine.

Gin Stephens: Well, when you put anything out into the world, you don't know how people are going to perceive it, or like it, or if they won't like it, and I know the main people who have read Clean(ish) so far, believe it or not, or people who are not in my main audience, you know, people like Abel James, or I mean, I love Cynthia Thurlow, but she doesn't listen to my-- You know, she's read it. You know, people like that, I was just on someone's podcast this week and he had a copy of it. So, those people have all really liked it. But I'm like, "But what if my audience doesn't like it?" Just because these other people like it, it doesn't mean my audience is going to like it. So, I hope, the people do.

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure your audience will love it. I haven't read it yet, but I don't see why they wouldn't, based on what I know.

Gin Stephens: I hope they do. It actually has more science. It's more sciency than anything I've written before.

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to have you on the show for it.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait either. You know, it's long. It's like 400 and something pages long ,but there were things I had to leave out. I mean, you can't talk about everything.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I know.

Gin Stephens: There're too many things.

Melanie Avalon: So many things.

Gin Stephens: It could have been like a million pages long. I finally would like had to stop writing things. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited, too. I'm going to listen to it on, because whenever I'm prepping for the show, it's always like, "Am I reading it or am I doing on Kindle, am I reading it or am I listening on the audiobook?" And yours, I will be listening on the audiobook.

Gin Stephens: I'll drop a copy in the mail because I've got all these copies that they sent me. So, I'll get a copy sent off to you. I can pop it in there.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Dec 26

Episode 245: Modifying Eating Windows, Plant Based, Processed Food, Chronic Fatigue, Soy & Tofu, Sugar Alternatives, Corn, Potatoes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #61 - Dr. Cate Shanahan

Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

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Listener Q&A: Melanie - episoode #1 and eating earlier

Listener Q&A: Angela - Processed vs. Plant Based

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Listener Q&A: Julie - How did i get here?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 245 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 245 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fabulous because I am at the beach cottage with Will and we're having a great time.

Melanie Avalon: That's lovely.

Gin Stephens: It was a spur of the moment kind of a trip. I was going to come this weekend with college friends, but then we had the ACC championship. So, we did that last weekend. So, they're like, "We can't get away again." I'm like, "That's fine. I'll go by myself." Will didn't have anything to do. I'm like, "Come with me." So, yeah, he's doing a lot of painting. Now, he's sitting on the beach with his guitar. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: He's so creative.

Gin Stephens: He really is. He is so creative. He's 22 and completely right brained and is happiest when he's creating something. He likes to create music, he writes music, and now, he likes to paint. So, I love that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I had a fun event on Friday.

Gin Stephens: Oh, what was that?

Melanie Avalon: I had dinner with one of my podcast guests.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fun. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It was very exciting. It's weird. I was thinking about it. Most of my really good friends now are all people I've met on my Biohacking Podcast. Isn't that weird? It's so crazy.

Gin Stephens: You know, it sounds weird except that a lot of my really good friends are people that I met through my Intermittent Fasting Groups and like their real good friends. I mean, obviously, my college friends are people I've known a long time but a lot of my really close friends have been on my podcast. All right, I didn't meet them till after they were on my podcast like face-to-face.

Melanie Avalon: The people I talk to pretty much every day are people I met in the podcast and then just started talking to after and really got to know really well. So, the person I went with though, I'm not super close or anything, but it was Dr. Eric Zielinski. So, he wrote The Healing Power of Essential Oils. I think that's the title of his first book. I didn't even realize we have the same agent, all of us.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's great. So many people do.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Same literary agent. Yeah, it was so fun. So, it was me, and him, and his wife, and their new baby, and my sister, and it was just a really fun time. It was really fun because yeah, like I just said it was only the second person I've met in real life from the show. Because he actually lives here in Atlanta.

Gin Stephens: I've met people in real life that you haven't met in real life that I met through you.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. Are true. So, yeah, it was really fun.

Gin Stephens: Like, I can think of three. Three people that I've met in real life that I know through you only, but I've met them in real life and you have not. [laughs] And I'm not counting Cynthia Thurlow, because I actually met her first.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she and I met first. We were on a radio program together. We didn't know anything about the other person and we both talked afterwards about here, we're like, "What is she going to say? Is it going to be the opposite of what I say?" But we found we were very in sync.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually reading her book last night, her new book.

Gin Stephens: Her book comes out March.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, in March. Okay. So, her book is about intermittent fasting and I'm not saying this to sound like a 'no' at all, but when I read a book about intermittent fasting, it's just so overwhelmingly familiar, like all of the information.

Gin Stephens: You're like, "Yep, yep, yep."

Melanie Avalon: It's hard for me to think what would this be like to read this.

Gin Stephens: For the first time?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I know what you mean. I 100% get it. But yeah, I met her first and then, you met her later. But the other three, can you think of all three of them?

Melanie Avalon: Shawn Wells.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Anna Cabeca.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I forgot about her. Okay, four. [laughs] Yes, Anna Cabeca, four, because I forgot that I met her through you. But I did. Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Wade Lightheart.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And, okay, so, there's one more.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Somebody, he is been on our podcast. Oh, and there's another one, too. There's five. Both of the others have been--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Todd White.

Gin Stephens: Yes. And of course, we can't forget the main one. The reason I was at the conference.

Melanie Avalon: JJ Virgin.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: Isn't that fun? Now, I've met all of them face-to-face.

Melanie Avalon: That's so crazy. That was a fun game. I like guessing games.

Gin Stephens: I know you do. That's why I was happy to do it because I was like, "Melanie's going to like this." You did a good job and you've got all of them. [laughs] And they're all just lovely. That's the best thing.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was reflecting on. Because I was posting about it on my Instagram today, and I was just reflecting on how it's all really, really wonderful people. Literally, it's my closest friends now, not necessarily that group that we just mentioned but--

Gin Stephens: The conference that I went to where I met all of them face-to-face, you know, JJ Virgin puts it on, and it is the best community of people. You know, the people that you know from your podcast are all probably very in the same circle. I really think JJ Virgin has a lot to do with that because she has a philosophy of, we should all work together and lift one another up, and like a rising tide lifts all ships and that everyone works together, and that we're not in competition, we're in collaboration.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's definitely the way I feel it.

Gin Stephens: That's exactly the way this whole community feels. So, everyone is a generous supporter of everyone else. Even if you don't have the same philosophies about things, people talk about them respectfully together, and it really is just an amazing group that she has put together and cultivates.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's so important. I also, think there's often, I don't think it's necessarily true but there's this cultural idea that like women in particular get competitive when it comes to business rather than collaborative, and yeah, that just doesn't resonate with me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And the whole idea that we can disagree about things and still like each other. I'm talking to in a big general, not like just me and you. But in a general world of like the health world.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.

Gin Stephens: Like Wade Lightheart and his partner that eat differently. We've talked about them a lot but that you can have different philosophies and still collaborate. Anyway, I just love it.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too. I have one more update. I can't say what it is yet exactly.

Gin Stephens: That's a fun one. No, I'm kidding.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But I just want listeners to know that I'm really getting closer to currently developing a supplement number two and it's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Oh, here's the funny story. Can I tell you a funny story about supplements?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I was telling Chad about your supplement and how great it was going. I'm like, "I'm never going to make a supplement." He's like, "What do you mean?" Because he's a medicinal chemist. [laughs] So, I actually have someone living in my house who probably could formulate a supplement. He's like, "What do you mean? We could make a supplement." I'm like, "I don't want to make a supplement." He's like, "But we could. We could do that." He's at the point. He just found out he can retire after one more semester. He can retire and start drawing retirement. He's not sure if he's going to. He hasn't decided but he can. So, he might be like, "Let's make some supplements." I'd be like, "Oh, okay, you're in charge of that, Chad." But after I've always said, I wouldn't, I'm still not planning to but the way he reacted was just so funny.

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny.

Gin Stephens: He's like, "I could do that." I mean, he totally could. Drug design is his thing but [laughs] he's going to have to be 100% in charge. It'll be Chad not me. I don't really want to make supplements. But I'm glad it's going well for you.

Melanie Avalon: It's going so well. It's just so fun and I said this before, but it's just really exciting to see this concept manifest in real life and for it to work so well. Oh, my goodness, so, the supplement, I haven't mentioned the one out right now, which is serrapeptase. I think, I've mentioned before that I have this mole on my nose that won't go away that I keep getting it like lasered off or shaved off and it keeps coming back. I was wondering if the serrapeptase would do something, but I think it's actually going away now.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, then I've got to get your serrapeptase and take it because I've got an eyebrow mole and I need that eyebrow-- It drives me crazy. The hair grows straight out of it like a witch's mole. I mean, so, I have to pluck it. Like right in the middle of my eyebrow, I have to pluck all that hair out, and then, I have a bald spot in the middle of my eyebrow. It could be worse, right?

Melanie Avalon: So, it's colored? Like it's brown?

Gin Stephens: No. It's skin color. It's a skin color mole.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. That's what mine is, too.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But it is right there in the very middle of my eyebrow, and the hair that grows out of it right there just sticks straight out like crazy. One day when I'm really old, I'll just let it go. I won't care.

Melanie Avalon: Well, maybe you can try my serrapeptase and maybe it will.

Gin Stephens: I need to. Does that make my mole go away then that would be amazing?

Melanie Avalon: That would be so exciting.

Gin Stephens: So, I will never do a supplement because you'll have all the supplements. So, I don't need to.

Melanie Avalon: I think, I definitely know my next five that I want to do. So, when this episode comes out, we're doing a holiday special. Okay, we're logging down the details probably tomorrow. So, this might change. But what I think it's going to be is, I think, it's going to be 25% off which is crazy. So, 25% off, and then, I think, it's going to be that if you order it while it's 25% off, then you get like a special link. You can send to your friends, and then, if they use that link, they get 20% off of a future order, and you also get 20% off for every friend that purchases. It's like refer a friend thing. So, that's all at avalonx.com, and then my email list for information about the future supplements, and then, like that special and all the things is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So, yeah, and last thing, do you know what I really want to develop Gin, I guess, it would be under my supplement line, but it's not a supplement that you take internally.

Gin Stephens: I don't know if I could ever guess.

Melanie Avalon: I want to make a fasting fat unlocking cream.

Gin Stephens: Okay. What? You're going to have to explain it. I'm so confused. [laughs] I feel like fasting just unlocks the fat already.

Melanie Avalon: Well. Okay, so, a lot people have stubborn fat. It's often subcutaneous fat. So, it's like that fat that you can pinch. So, love handles, and maybe on your arms, or on your abs. So, yes, fasting puts you into a fat burning state and encourages fat burning but a lot of times those actual fat cells, there's receptors on fat cells that basically determine whether or not they are releasing their fat or storing their fat. Even if you're fasting, fasting does not necessarily mean that you'll automatically, easily open up all your fat cells to be used. Especially, depending on their metabolic state and where they're at like people who you know, yo-yo diet, I think, the more you lose and regain, and lose and regain fat, the more resistant your fat cells come to losing their fat again. So, if you literally put a compound into the fat cell topically that activates receptors that encourages the fat cells to release their content, then, I think, you can more easily burn stubborn fat while fasting. So, it's like upgrading your fasting, like if people were to drink coffee and find that that helps them burn more fat.

So, there are different compounds that do this like caffeine, and menthol, and green tea, and I found one that I currently use, and I like the ingredients mostly, but it's not completely clean, and I just want to make one that has no problematic ingredients and just these active ingredients, and I think, it can go two ways people who have really stubborn fat and maybe a lot of it, it can help that for sure. But also, people who don't even necessarily need to lose weight, but they have like, just it seems little stubborn areas, I think, it can really, really benefit that while fasting. So, it would be a fat unlocking cream. It wouldn't actually burn any fat, but it would make it easier to burn, to spot treat fat burning while fasting.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: That's my pitch. [laughs] I'm so excited. Yeah, I'm inspired because the one I've ordered is actually, I'm a bit shocked how well it's working, but it has stuff in it that I don't like. So, I've got to make my own version.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's fun to know connections so that you can make things that have just the ingredients you want in them.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Like the one I'm using right now is like bright blue. I'm like, well, it was not good, dyes and stuff like that.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off-- Oh, I don't think I even realized this was from a Melanie.

Gin Stephens: I've actually met this Melanie face to face.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: Yes. She was on my podcast. So, I wonder when she sent this one in, it might have been like a long time ago. It might be an old one because I've met her face to face and she was on my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: Well, hello, Melanie. The subject is: "Episode number 1 and eating earlier." So, Melanie says, "I just listened to my first IF podcast." So, she had just listened with this had been a while ago, you think?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't know because I don't know when people listen to Intermittent Fasting Stories, and then, they might run out of those, then, they start Intermittent Fasting Podcast, so, it's hard to know. The question that she asked about me makes me feel like maybe this was before. You'll see when you keep reading it.

Melanie Avalon: So, she says, "It was fantastic. I really enjoyed it." And this is a question we get a lot. She says, but where is Episode 1, on iTunes, it starts as number two. Yes. There is no Episode 1. We had technical difficulties with it and it's lost forever. I don't even know. Yeah, it's lost. [laughs] I'm sorry. It's funny. Sometimes, I think, occasionally we've had a question where they say, they actually heard Episode 1, and that's how you know they've been there since day one. Her second question. She says, "Gin was talking about how if there is a family gathering i.e., brunch she eats earlier. Does she still follow up with a five-hour rule and stop eating after five hours no matter what time of day it is? Thanks, and again loved my first episode, you both sound great together." She's from Canada.

Gin Stephens: Yep. And this is why I think she probably knows the answer to this now. But the answer is, of course, probably, people who've been listening a long time know that I do not time my window anymore at all. For example, yesterday, I had brunch with Will. It actually wasn't very early we went at 2. There's this place down here they have this jazz brunch, and it's fantastic, and I love to go there. It's called LOCAL. It's in Pawleys Island. If anyone's ever down in the Pawleys Island area, go to LOCAL, I love it. They made me a mocktail, I had eggs Benedict, we split avocado toast, we listened to jazz, yum. But it was 2 o'clock. And then, if I was still following the 5 o'clock rule, I would be like, "All right, must stop eating by seven." Nope. [laughs] I no longer do that at all. I just go with the flow depending on what day it is and what's happening. There are many days that my window is shorter.

For example, let's see what day is it. Today's Sunday. We're recording. We came to the beach. Okay, Wednesday and Thursday--, both Wednesday and Thursday, I was busy. So, I didn't eat until later probably, 6:00, 6:30, something like that. I had dinner, closed my window less than an hour, two days in a row. Then, I've had a couple of days right after that with longer windows. So, I feel like it all balances out. I would really be, I mean, of course, I don't track it. It would be interesting to see what my average is. I bet my average is probably five hours or less but I don't even know. So, I no longer track anything. I just wait till I open my window and then I close it when I'm done whatever that may be.

Melanie Avalon: When you're tracking, would you adjust for that?

Gin Stephens: Well, when I was trying to lose weight, see that was a different thing. When I was trying to lose weight, I was following Dr. Bert Herring's Fast‑5, and he had 19:5 as the foundation of his plan. And his one rule is, find a consecutive five-hour window every single day and stick to it. That was the only rule. It needed to be a consecutive five-hour window. And he didn't even talk at all about tracking the fast. It was like, you have that, the boundaries of the five-hour window, you open, you close it within five hours. He's like, "Of course, you're going to have some days where it's longer, some days were shorter, but in general, five-hour window." So, that's the way I was raised up my early days with the Fast-5 program. So, when I was losing weight, that's what I tried to stick to.

Melanie Avalon: When you were doing that, if you had opened it earlier, you would just do it earlier five-hour window?

Gin Stephens: Yes. But that didn't always work so well. People have heard me talk about this before, when I open early, even if I have a giant brunch at noon, a giant meal. Let's say, I have a Thanksgiving dinner at noon.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: I'm probably going to feel great till about 8 PM. It is just about what I've noticed for myself. So, I'm like, "I'm just going to eat this one big meal, and then, I'll be fine. And then, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine." 8 PM rolls around, I'm starving. So, I have two options at that point. I can be like, "I'm just going to push through the hunger and go to bed." But I don't do that. If I'm starving at 8 PM, I eat again. I don't like to go to bed starving. That's not the right answer for everybody. Maybe someone else push through. But it's easier for me to push through, after I wake up in the morning, fast longer than it is for me to push through in a day when I've closed my eating window, and now, I'm starving again.

Melanie Avalon: We talked about this, but I'm the exact same way-- The exact same way. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. And this is from Angela, and the subject is: "Processed versus plant-based." She says, "Hi, hello, Melanie and Gin. I am a 33-year-old female who has been experimenting with intermittent fasting since November of 2019. I lost a total of 20 pounds between November and December of 2019 and have over 50 more to go. Then, I slowly went back to my old ways in February, but never fear I'm going to continue IF immediately. It is the only thing I have found that has helped combat my chronic fatigue in addition to weight loss. So, we know that processed foods aren't the best for our bodies and Whole Foods provide more nutrition. My body doesn't do well with most meats. I can have very lean meat and fish. So, I've been looking into incorporating plant-based foods into my diet. My question is kind of threefold. First, if I am eating pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, is it counterproductive to try to increase nutrition?" It's never counterproductive to try to increase nutrition. I'm just going to say that.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: Although, we can talk about the first part in a minute, but it's never counterproductive to increase nutrients. All right. "Second, what should we be looking for so far as no added this in plant-based products? Last, are there any plant-based foods or food brands that you can recommend? Thank you, ladies for all that you do. You bring so much inspiration and information to us all and all I can say is," she's going to love Clean(ish). Angela needs to read Clean(ish), because it's all explained in there. So much detail. But anyway, you get to go first, so, I'll let you talk about it first.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Angela. This definitely in my opinion touches into something that I see a lot now, especially, with the plant-based food movement, which is where a lot of people are making the dietary choice for health, or environmental, or ethical reasons to go plant-based, which can be really great for the individual depending on the individual's constitution. But there are a lot of like Angela said, you know, pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods that may come with their own array of issues.

Gin Stephens: Like Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies. I think, they're vegan. [laughs] So, yeah, they call something vegan and you're like, "Oh, it's so healthy." No, it is a Girl Scout Thin Mint cookie.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I mean, think about how many just like of the breakfast cereals on the market are probably technically vegan. Sugar is vegan. Yeah, so, a lot of things. I did a lot of research on this, by the way for brands and stuff, the different thoughts. There is the option of less processed, less pre-packaged plant-based foods. So, you could still be making meat alternatives yourself and I know that might require more time, but once you figure out the system that works for you and how to cook it and what you like and integrate it into your life, I think, the cost benefit of learning how to make food closer to its natural form that you really like long term in the health world will have massive, massive benefits. So, if that's an option, I would definitely go that route. So, that would be things like, if you are eating soy or tofu, getting that more plain and cooking it the way you like or things like mushrooms or-- Did she say, she's vegan or vegetarian?

Gin Stephens: She just said plant-based.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, she does have lean meat and fish. So, you might be having eggs, and lean meat, and fish. You could still stay in the Whole Foods world and make it work plant-based wise. If you are having more of the pre-processed, pre-packaged plant-based foods, things you would want to look for, it's really, really shocking. If you turn over most of the things in the market and see the ingredients, there's just so much stuff. So, things I would look for are anything you can't pronounce or don't know what it is, that's probably not the best sign. A lot of like gums and carrageenan are added to these foods, and those can be problematic, they can be inflammatory. If it ever says like natural flavors that can be anything, so that's a little bit sketchy.

Gin Stephens: It could be MSG. They hide that under all sorts of flavor kind of things.

Melanie Avalon: Something I personally am very concerned with is refined seed oils, and I've done an episode with Dr. Cate Shanahan all on this. If you'd like to learn more, that's at melanieavalon.com/fatburnfix. But that's all about the potential problematic issue of refined added vegetable and seed oils. So, that's vegetable oil and there's like you can remember it because there's three C's three S's, there's probably more but that's a way to remember the main ones. So, it's canola, corn, cottonseed, soy,-

Gin Stephens: Sunflower.

Melanie Avalon: -sunflower? Yeah, sunflower. I would be really wary of those in the foods. The ironic thing about it is that, a lot of the vegan and vegetarian foods will actually use these oils because it's a way for them to have less saturated fat, and it works for them, and what they're trying to make the label say. But the problem with these oils is they are highly, highly unstable. So, when they are refined like that and then in these foods, they can really create a lot of inflammation in the body and oxidative issues. So, I would really, really avoid added C in vegetable oils. If you are having soy which is going to be pretty prevalent in the plant-based world, the majority of soy is GMO. So, I would look for organic soy only. My thoughts on soy have been changing. So, I've always sort of historically been on the fence and a little bit confused, and I didn't do a really, really deep dive until pretty recently because I interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard, who is one of the top vegan proponents of all the vegans.

A lot of listeners probably know who he is because he's in all the documentaries, he has a lot of books. I interviewed him finally, like two weeks ago. So, that episode I think will come out around March or so. He wanted to come on actually for his study about soy. So, ooh, I went deep. I read everything I could find and my takeaway was that-- we've talked about this on a recent show, so I won't go too deep into it. But my takeaway was that, it's probably very context dependent. It probably depends on your gut microbiome, it probably depends on your genetics as to whether or not you benefit. I think, it might depend on your current estrogen burden. But in any case, I think, going the natural route, so, non-GMO, organic soy and/or like fermented soy, which is called tempeh would be the route to go if you go that route. So, yes. So, my suggestion would be to turn over, go to like Whole Foods, and look at all the brands, and turn them over, and see what's in them. I will list some brands that I like.

So, Primal Kitchen does make some vegan, and like non-dairy condiments and things like that. So, you could check them out. Check out Amy's. If you're sensitive to gluten, that's something that you would want to be looking for. So, any grains or gluten and the products. I like Eden Foods. That's a brand they make some soy milks, and soups, and they're mostly organic, no additives or they might be all organic. A good dairy alternative is coconut milk but it's pretty hard to find coconut milk without gums and carrageenan, but I know they do have one at Trader Joe's and Native Forest is also a brand. If you're going with the vegan milk still, it's like almond milk, it's really hard to find one without additives, but MALK is a brand that doesn't have any problematic ingredients, For the soy, SoyBoy is a brand that I like. They have soy and they have a Tempeh.

Again, check their ingredients though because some of the different flavors have problematic additives. There's a meat alternative made from jackfruit and Upton's makes an original form that doesn't have any additives. So, that's something that you could try. You can also get organic canned jackfruit. So, that might be something to cook with. Mushrooms, by the way, are also fun things to add and use as meat alternatives. Especially, the really big like portabella mushrooms. I like some of this Dr. Praeger's that they have at Whole Foods, but it's not organic is the only thing. Maybe that's a place to start but I would definitely either way, there's going to be like, if you really want to invest in this, there's going to be a learning curve, where you are going to just need to familiarize yourself with brands, and then also, like I said maybe learn how to make vegan or vegetarian plant-based alternatives yourself in a more whole foods form.

Gin Stephens: I have a few things to add, although, you've said a lot as usual, which is good. [laughs] You are thorough, that's the word I'm looking for. So, I really think like I said, Angela, you're going to love Clean(ish), because it can get really hard to decide, you know, how perfect do you want to be? That's where the ish comes in. We know for certain but there's a lot of stuff we don't know for certain in the health world. You'll find a study that says one thing, you'll find something else that says something contradictory, but I will pretty much say, Melanie, see if you agree with me here. We know for certain that no one gets healthier by increasing the amount of ultra-processed foods in their diet. Would you say that's pretty much one thing we know for sure?

Melanie Avalon: No one gets healthier by increasing ultra-processed foods. I don't like to ever say I'm certain about anything.

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't either. But this is one where I'm pretty certain.

Melanie Avalon: That is the closest to approaching certain that I can get.

Gin Stephens: I've never seen a study that implied otherwise, more and more, ever since the term ultra-processed came out, which really hasn't been very long. I talk about this a lot more detail like I said in Clean(ish). We used to just say processed, but that is a misleading term. Because if you shuck an ear of corn and slice it off the cob and cook it, you've just processed it. But if you grind your wheat into flour, you just processed it. So, processing itself is not a bad thing. It's the ultra-processed, that's the problem. Once we got that terminology, it really helped make things clear. You want to eat things that are not ultra-processed when you can. But again, I'm cleanish. Melanie just listed a whole bunch of options that are probably considered to be ultra-processed but still better than other options that are ultra-processed. Feed foods can be organic, and also ultra-processed at the same time. We think that if it says organic on the label, it's a good choice. Those organic seed oils are just as inflammatory to me. I mean, maybe not just as inflammatory, maybe the ones that are not organic or would be less inflammatory, but they are inflammatory as well.

There's a term that I learned when I was at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition called crowding out. It's a great concept. It really helped me come up with my own personal definition of Clean(ish). You want to focus on high-quality Whole Foods, whether you're looking at the paradigm of plant-based or whether you're going to be paleo. Melanie, you know for sure that as paleo got popular, paleo ultra-processed foods became available, which is the opposite of what paleo was supposed to be.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was going to say that exactly.

Gin Stephens: Right. So, we can ruin anything in America or the world by ultra-processing it and it still quote fits the guidelines, but it doesn't at all. I've talked about this before as well when I did the low-fat diets of the 90s, I read the T-Factor Diet and the only takeaway that I took away from that was eat less fat. So, I started eating SpaghettiOs, and SnackWell's, and McDonald's had a fat free Apple muffin, you could drive through and get and you could have a coke with that and the whole thing was fat free. I mean, that is not what the T-Factor book said to do. I went back through it recently and reread it, and he wants you to eat whole foods that are low in fat. That's really what it is. No matter how you're choosing to eat, the more real foods you can fit in there, the better you're going to be, and over time, you'll figure out, what proportion of ultra-processed foods you can allow in there. Melanie, are you zero with ultra-processed foods, would you say? Do you eat any?

Melanie Avalon: So, in my everyday day-to-day life, I don't have any. When I go through my low carb phases, that's when I'll do the MCT oil which is ultra-processed. Every now and then if I'm having like a crazy celebratory craving, I will get the low carb like keto cake mixes with the least amount of additives. So, they're typically like almond, or coconut flour and erythritol, or monk fruit or stevia.

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're on the continuum. Really close to whole foods all the time, but you still allow the ultra-processed sometimes. And that's your definition of Clean(ish), right?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: But I on the other hand, I wouldn't choose something with monk fruit or erythritol, I would use real sugar or coconut palm sugar instead. That's because we each have a different what we want to do. That's the whole in the book, Clean(ish), which you need to order right now, because it's coming out January 4th, which is so very soon. In Clean(ish). It's all about figuring out your own personal definition of how that looks for you and what will you have and what will you not? I talk about in there that, I avoid these oils, I like to stick to organic things, but there's a mayonnaise I love that I grew up with and I don't eat mayonnaise very often. So, if I do need to eat mayonnaise or want to eat mayonnaise, I use this brand. It's probably GMO. I'm sure it is full of funky stuff, but I like it. But I don't need it all the time and I don't eat those oils day-to-day. So, it's just like I said, a matter of figuring out your perfect balance. My diet has more ultra-processed stuff in it than Melanie's, but it's way different than how it looked one, two, three, four, 10 years ago. So, it's a process.

Like I said, before, that I ate out twice yesterday, I am feeling so puffy today and I know, it's because when I eat out, they use all these things, these inflammatory ingredients I don't use at home. So, I don't feel my best. When I get home tomorrow, I'm going to make something that has very high vegetable content, and I'm going to feel better. And it's just a matter of finding that balance that works for you. The more ultra-processed foods you can eliminate, but still enjoy your life, I really think the better.

Melanie Avalon: To that point for me with eating out like I've just learned how to order where I'm equally happy with what I'm ordering but then I don't get any of the negative effects because I'm so specific in how I order. For some people, it's worth it to do that and for some people, it's not. So, it's really just a matter of like you said, Gin, what's worth it to you and what makes you happiest in the long run. Have you tried Primal Kitchen's, mayo?

Gin Stephens: Yes, [laughs] and it's good. It's fine. If I were someone who ate mayonnaise every day or used it a lot, then, I would really think about the brand that I use. I would not want the brand of mayonnaise that I prefer. I'd like Duke's mayonnaise, and I grew up with it, and it is what mayonnaise is supposed to taste like. If I want something, it needs to be Duke's mayonnaise. But I don't eat mayonnaise every day. If I did, I would probably switch to Primal Kitchen. But it's a sometimes thing. So, having a little bit of this once a month or however often, I really only put it on if I'm making pimento cheese, which I don't do hardly ever. [laughs] Maybe at Christmas, I'll make my cranberry cheese or I'm having an egg sandwich which I have, I don't know, not even once a month. So, I'm going to eat it it's going to be Duke's, but I don't eat it very often. I don't think I explained what crowding out was. Did I explain what it was or did I just say it and then go down another rabbit hole? Crowding out is when you focus on high-quality Whole Foods as the main part, and then you crowd out, let's say, I wanted to have some homemade hummus with a few pita chips on the side, and then a big salad or something. So, I'm crowding out those chips. I'm still allowing them but I'm filling up on the good stuff first.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I will say speaking to the sweetener stuff, I reserve the right to change my opinion on this but the sweetener, I'm most interested by as far as I think it probably has--

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm predicting in my head what you might say, go ahead.

Melanie: Oh, ooh, ooh, yay. I like this game. I think it probably has the most health benefits, minimum side effects. Allulose, all right, that's not I was going to say. What did you think is?

Gin Stephens: Well, I was thinking you might would think blackstrap molasses was interesting because it's got so much mineral content.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, or manuka honey. Pay 100 bucks for a tablespoon.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Have you looked at blackstrap molasses at all?

Melanie Avalon: I've seen vaguely at different times. I know, it has certain things in it nutrient wise. The allulose is really interesting because it's becoming more and more popular. I went and read all the studies that I could find on it, and it actually, it has a very beneficial effect on especially for like diabetics on just carb content in general. I'd have to revisit what I was saying but the mechanisms of action are really interesting. I think, I don't want to put up misinformation, but it's something like it either competes with carbs or it seems to have a pretty beneficial effect, and it tastes very similar to sugar, and it acts very similar to sugar.

Gin Stephens: To be honest, for me, the reason I avoid all those others is, I just don't like the way they taste. I don't like any of them.

Melanie Avalon: Have you tried allulose?

Gin Stephens: I haven't tried that one.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's what it is. I think, it's actually a natural like sugar. That's what it is. It's a natural sugar found in certain fruits but we just literally can't metabolize it into carb energy. So, it's getting sugar without getting any sugar.

Gin Stephens: Well, they said all about the sugar alcohols, all those things and I just don't like them.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I agree. It's not a sugar alcohol. No, it's an [unintelligible [00:45:58].

Gin Stephens: Those are the kind of things they said like, "Oh, it's natural, oh, it's still not like--" [laughs] I would love to try it but I just stick to coconut palm sugar is really good. It's got that brown sugar flavor. Have you ever had it?

Melanie Avalon: Nope. Do I know a fun fact? Do you know the difference between sweet corn and corn?

Gin Stephens: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like the variety?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. I just learned this because I'm prepping to interview FARMER LEE JONES. Do you know who he is?

Gin Stephens: I did not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited. He's like this epic regenerative agriculture farmer. He always wears overalls. That's what he's known for. I think, his farm pioneered microgreens, and they're all about creating really interesting varieties, and species, and using all the parts of the plant, and they're just really cool. But I learned in his book, which is epic. Okay, now, going on to some other tangents.

Gin Stephens: I would probably love his book. What's it called?

Melanie Avalon: So, his book is called The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. And it came out in April. It is the most beautiful book and it reminds me--, Gin, it reminds me of you so much like what I was reading it. It's really like, "If Gin were to make a, well, actually--"

Gin Stephens: All right, I'm going to order it right now.

Melanie Avalon: It's like if both of us were to make this book because--

Gin Stephens: Tell me the name of it, again.

Melanie Avalon: The Chef's Garden: A Modern Guide to Common and Unusual Vegetables -With Recipes. I got so happy because so his people asked to come on the show and I asked if they could send me like the book, and they sent it, and he signed it with a message to me. It made me so happy. So, I have a signed copy but it's a beautiful book and the reason it reminds me of you is the recipes are--

Gin Stephens: I just ordered it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yay.

Gin Stephens: It's coming.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know what you think when you get it. You'll see why when you get it, but the recipes are all there are whole foods and stuff, but they also use sugar and they're not like--

Gin Stephens: They're Clean(ish).

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's really an amazing, incredible book. Oh, but I read the whole thing front to cover, which I probably didn't need to do because you will learn so much about every vegetable ever known to mankind.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait, I'm so excited about that.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it should be required reading in a way because the amount of information I learned about, I think, I shared it, did I share about the potato?

Gin Stephens: I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: The fun fact about the potato that I learned from this book?

Gin Stephens: You said something about corn. First of all, tell me if I'm right. This is what I think like when I said yes, I need the difference and then, I was like, "Maybe, I don't" as I started second guessing myself. This is what I think the differences between sweet corn and corn. Most of the corn they grow is not sweet corn and that is to feed animals. Then, sweet corn is the corn we eat, am I right or is that wrong?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's what I thought. There's something about most of the corn they grow is for animals.

Melanie Avalon: Most of the corn that we grow is, I think to feed animals.

Gin Stephens: It's not the kind of corn we eat. It's a different variety of corn. That's not the kind we eat and then the kind we eat I thought was the sweet corn. Okay, so what's the difference?

Melanie Avalon: So, corn is a grain, sweet corn is a vegetable.

Gin Stephens: Okay. What?

Melanie Avalon: I know. It blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I don't know about that.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want hear the potato fact that blew my mind?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but I've got to look up this thing about corn and sweet corn.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I'm telling you what Southern Living thinks, I'm right and he is not. I just looked up, Southern Living said, "The variety of corn we enjoy eating is called sweet corn, which does not grow nearly as tall as field corn. Sweet corn has a higher sugar content than cow corn and is picked while immature before the sugar has a chance to turn into starch." So, that is exactly what I thought. So, I don't really know what he's talking about. I'm going to have to read this book and figure it out. Sweet corn and field corn, it's different, but it's who's going to eat it.

Melanie Avalon: Corn can be considered either a grain or vegetable based on when it is harvested.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, that does make sense. Okay, but It's the variety of corn, sweet corn is a different variety than cow corn, right? So, they do let the kind that they're going to feed to the animals dry in the field, and I guess, that's the difference is when you harvest it. Whether you would consider it a vegetable or if you let it dry, then maybe it would be considered a grain. No, we were both right.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, maybe, that's what he meant like the corn that's fully mature and dry.

Gin Stephens: We harvest it while it's still considered a vegetable. But if you let it sit in the field, but we don't do that with sweet corn. Sweet corn, we do not let it sit in the field and dry. We harvest it and then we eat it. But the other kind of corn is the kind that is for the animals and they do let it dry in the field. When I looked that up, it was because I was driving around and I'm like, "Why is all the corn looks so bad? Why is it all so dried up?" And then, I searched it, I was like, "Is something wrong with the corn this year?" Then, that's where I learned, "No, that's field corn. They're letting it dry for the animals."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So much learned about corn. You're going to love this book. Here's the potato on. Are you ready?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, the potato became this massive thing when they discovered-- I don't remember when it was like 1,700s. When they discovered that it had a high nutrition value in Europe, it was like a good food source, basically. And it was the royalty people that figure this out. So, they wanted to have it as like a food source for the European population. What did they do to make the people start all growing and eating potatoes?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: They did something. They use some reverse psychology to make the non-royalties like the peasants start growing corn. Do you have any guesses?

Gin Stephens: Do you mean, potato?

Melanie Avalon: Potato. Sorry. To start growing potato.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. You just have to tell me.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I am just going to tell you because I played this game at Christmas with my family and it took a long time for them to guess. So, I'm just going to tell you. They planted potatoes in guarded fields, so that the peasants would think the potatoes were like really special and expensive or something worth getting. So, then the peasant would steal the potatoes, and then they started planting themselves.

Gin Stephens: Well, joke's on you royal people, because potatoes are amazing.

Melanie Avalon: No, that's what they wanted to happen.

Gin Stephens: But I know, I know. I know. But they're so good. They were like, thinking they're just for peasants, like wanting the peasants to eat them.

Melanie Avalon: They wanted to spread potatoes as a food source in general. So, it was like, how do we--

Gin Stephens: But they liked them, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But it was like, "How do we make the peasants start doing this?" So, they made it seem like they were really exclusive.

Gin Stephens: All they needed to do is just give them a potato and they would have been in. [laughs] He also talks all about the difference between like yams and sweet potatoes.

Gin Stephens: I've done some reading about that, too. Does he say that yams and sweet potatoes are not the same thing and that yams are--? I think, yams might be in Africa?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I knew they weren't the same thing but I would go down so many rabbit holes before this being like because I'd be like, "How to identify a yam or sweet potato at the supermarket?" He says, "If you're at a normal supermarket, so not--"

Gin Stephens: It's the sweet potato.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's a sweet potato. The yams are only ethnic type.

Gin Stephens: Super specialty. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't wait for you to get this book.

Gin Stephens: I apparently know a lot about food already.

Melanie Avalon: You're going to love it. He has sections on every single vegetable, and then all the different varieties, and some of them, there'll be like 30 varieties. They'll talk about 30 varieties of tomatoes. It's mind blowing.

Gin Stephens: And then, it'll make me want to have all those varieties, then, you go to the store and it's just the plain old boring ones.

Melanie Avalon: I know. There is a farmer's market here in Atlanta called Buford's Farmers Market, and I've gone a few times, and I think, they have basically everything. It's crazy.

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Melanie Avalon: That was a tangent. Shall we move on to our next question.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, we have a question from Julie. The subject is: "How did I get here?" Julie says, "Hello, I started IF in August 2018, 49 years old, 5'2", 134 pounds. I've always been active, walking, yoga, and elliptical weights, workouts. My body mind and lifestyle adapted quickly to IF, a negative self-talk about weight and food finally subsided. I felt healthy free and in eight months, I was 123 pounds. Fast forward to yesterday having not stepped on the scale in months. Now, 51 years old and I weighed in at 136. I maintain clean fast, little alcohol, healthy eating, and 20:4. Please help. Is it age, cortisol? I have read/heard Gin talk about this in relation to COVID-19. ADF is not for me. So, I just try to keep positive, drink more water, almost a gallon daily, eat healthier, etc., but I don't understand how I got here. IF has worked for me and I'm committed to this way of life.

My weight gain shows in the mirror, my clothes, and my mind. Negative self-talk has returned and I feel like I did pre-IF. Side note: I am in good health, and my doctor supports IF, and the lower weight range for my size. Blood test for my annual physicals were good, no health or thyroid issues. Do you have ideas on supplements or vitamins? Any support is welcome. Thank you." She wants to know if we reply by email or only respond on the podcast, do we give heads up to listeners. Grateful for your expertise and advice. And we do not usually reply via email. Occasionally, we do. Sometimes, emails come through and we just must address something. But normally, it's surprise on the podcast. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Kate, you got to listen. Hopefully, you'll hear it. So, Julie. We can't answer the why. We can't tell you because you said, is it age? Could be. A lot of people gain weight as they go through menopause and you're right at that exact age for that. Cortisol? Could be. She's referring to a blog post that I put out in 2020 about the pandemic, and stress, and weight gain because all of a sudden, in 2020, people who were maintaining beautifully with intermittent fasting, and had been for a long time started having sudden weight gain. So, we talked about the stress that comes along with the pandemic and we're certainly not over that. [laughs] The stress continues as things continue to like, "Oh, here's a variant." And yeah, the media pumps us full of fear, and we're living in this constant Loki stress state, day after day. So, I would absolutely not minimize the effect of that and I would just say, so, you've gained-- It looks like, you lost 11 pounds initially, and now you're back up the 11+2 more. So, 13 pounds. So, you went down 11 and then you went up 13. So, I know, it's frustrating, but it really could be. It could be a combination of hormones, menopause, and stress that we're living through right now. So, we can't tell you what it is.

And also, there are no magical supplements and vitamins that we could say, this is what you need. Boy, I wish there were. I'd make that supplement. [laughs] There was a magical supplement that could make us lose the weight, but there isn't. We've been down that road, all of us have, and you buy them and you saw them on the famous TV doctor who had the different episodes about this magical supplement. I bought everything that was on there. Never once did it make me lose magical weight. Sadly, I wish it had. But it could be so many things. I would really suggest, you might need to be someone who does way more frequently. That might be hard to hear, because I'm someone who doesn't weigh at all, and I haven't weighed for a long time. But if I knew that I had gained weight, and I couldn't figure out why, that scale was really good feedback for me when I was trying to lose weight. It really made a difference. And doing my weekly averaging or using something like happy scale, and really being able to see if you can find what's going on. I'm trying to see what she eats. Did she talk about her diet?

Melanie Avalon: She just says-- I was actually going to talk about that. Yeah, she says, healthy.

Gin Stephens: Healthy eating is such a big phrase. You know what, what you think is healthy eating, what I think is healthy eating, what Melanie thinks is healthy eating, what Paul Saladino thinks is healthy eating, there are all going to be different definitions. So, there may be some room to improve in your diet, especially, if you're choosing foods that don't work well for you. I could be eating in a way that fits a lot of definitions of healthy eating, but I'm eating too much of it or my body doesn't like those healthy things. My body would like something else. So, it's really time to tweak if-- You haven't done ZOE, yet? You might really enjoy that, ZOE test. I have a blog post about that ginstephens.com/zoe. You've probably heard me and Melanie talk about it. You also might need to switch it up a little bit.

I know, you said, you like 20:4 with a four-hour eating window. You don't want to do ADF. You said, it's not for you. Although, I will say, the number of people who have said, I didn't think it was for me, and then I tried it, and guess what? I love it. There are a lot of people who say that. So, you might be surprised. But you could do a mild, not really ADF version, where one day, you have 23:1, and then, the next day you have 18:6 or something. You just keep alternating those. That's a very mild up down, up day pattern and see how that goes. That might be enough to get things going. But there're so many things you could try. Unfortunately, though, like I said before, we can't identify the why of the weight gain. We can just point out some suggestions or some ideas of what it might be.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I thought that was great. The healthy eating was actually what I was going to focus in on because I thought it was really interesting that the thing, she asked advice or to adjust the way it is vitamins or supplements, that would be the last, well, not the last thing, but that would not be high on my priority list for addressing weight loss. The foundational things, I believe for addressing weight loss are the actual food that you're eating and when you're eating it.

Gin Stephens: And you know, that just shows how programmed we are to look for that in a bottle. Because we've been taught here's what you take, and then you will lose the weight, and that's not how it goes. I wish it did.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I think the healthy eating, it's really easy to eat what may be healthy eating and maybe healthy eating for you, but healthy eating that will create weight gain. Because if you're eating certain foods that are "healthy," but are promoting fat storage, easily stored as fat and eaten higher than you are burning off every day, then, you're going to gain weight as a necessity of that.

Gin Stephens: People often think that because we say, don't count calories that we are saying that calories don't count. Calories are a terrible way of measuring what's coming in, what's coming out. But neither Melanie nor I or really anybody that I really trust and follow thinks that you can really just overeat eat, eat, eat, eat, eat and not gain weight. If you eat too much, you will gain weight. So, I'm not saying that's what Julie's doing. But you can overeat in a four-hour window if you're eating like a lot of cheese for example. That's my own little-- [giggles] my nemesis of overeating is usually cheese and dairy products because I love them, but they're easy to overeat.

Melanie Avalon: And that's an example we're looking at the type of food rather than the calories or even the amount can take care of itself in a way. Because if cheese is a greenlit food for you, you can most likely very easily overeat it and gain weight from it. Same with like nut butters and things like that compared to with, you know, you're like, "Oh, I can have unlimited protein." It's unlikely you're going to eat so much protein that you gain weight if anything. It has high thermogenic effect, if anything, you'd probably get full faster and probably lose weight and while also boosting your metabolism for example. So, I would focus in on that healthy eating, and look at what you're eating, and I would suggest, and I say this a lot, so, I feel like a broken record. But if you're not looking at your macros at all, there's a lot of magic that can happen. You don't have to count calories, you don't have to count even amounts, but if you play around with a macro approach that can work really, really well for a lot of people, and it doesn't have to be forever, but it can be just while you're losing this weight. So, that would be either low carb or low fat, and seeing how that works for you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's a good suggestion.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode245. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. All right. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Well, I guess, I'll just put in one more plug for go ahead and pre-order Clean(ish) if you haven't already.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: It's coming out really soon and I'm excited.

Melanie Avalon: Really soon when this airs.

Gin Stephens: Yes. And even really soon.

Melanie Avalon: Five or six days, like a week. Like a week after this.

Gin Stephens: Even really soon like now. It's really soon just in general.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think, it's about a week after when this airs. Already well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. And this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Dec 19

Episode 244: Low Fat Diet Success, Protein & Fruit, Being Discouraged, Gut Microbiome, Prebiotics, Probiotics, Fiber, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Josh - Suggestions For My Wife?

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Listener Q&A: Erin - Microbiome

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 244 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolytes that are clean fast approved. Yep, free electrolytes with no additives, no fillers, clean fast approved, here's the details. So, as you guys know, I am a huge fan of Robb Wolf. He's basically my hero in life. He wrote The Paleo Solution, and he's the reason that I'm doing what I do today. He co-founded a company called LMNT. Because he realized just how important the role of electrolytes are in our health. And not just our health, but our performance, our wellbeing, and so much more. In fact, a lot of times, people struggle with issues on low-carb diets, keto, or fasting. They might be fatigued or have headaches, muscle cramps, basically a decline in mental and physical performance. That's because electrolytes are key for your body's hormonal and cellular function. And when we fast or do low-carb diets, they can often get out of whack. Most electrolyte supplements on the market are full of crazy additives, sweeteners, extra calories, and toxic ingredients that you just don't need in your body. That's where LMNT comes in.

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Because LMNT hears so many amazing stories from customers every single day and often hear about how people get samples and then just get turned on and then want to tell all of their friends, LMNT decided to have an amazing VIP offer for our community. Yes, in the spirit of the holidays, LMNT is launching their saltiest offer ever for a limited time. Our community will be able to claim a free LMNT sampler pack. It only covers the cost of shipping. That's $5 for US customers. That's right. You'll get eight packets of LMNT, eight different flavors, the offer is limited one time per customer. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's d-r-i-n-k-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF p-o-d-c-a-s-t. When you get that sampler pack by the way, the raw unflavored one is the one that is clean fast approved. All the other ones will be for your eating window. Again, to get your free LMNT sampler pack, just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information as well as that link to Robb Wolf's episode in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in.

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is episode number 244 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I have so many things.

Gin Stephens: Well, good. I've just rolling along waiting for Clean(ish) to come out. On the date that we're recording this, we are less than a month away and on the day it comes out, we're less than a month away. So, if people have not preordered Clean(ish) yet, pretty soon, you'll just have to real order it because [giggles] it comes out January 4th. So, go ahead and preorder it now. You're going to want to have it.

Melanie Avalon: So, when this comes out, it'll be just a few days before Christmas, which is very exciting. So, people can preorder almost order Clean(ish). I will be having a sale-- holiday sale right now, I think, in theory on my serrapeptase. And I think we're literally locking down the details right now. But I think we're going to do, if you were on the list, so, get on my email list. Hopefully, we can do this some sort of like refer a friend thing where if you refer the serrapeptase to a friend, you get a code, or a credit, or discount. Hopefully, that'll be in the works.

Gin Stephens: It's just figuring out logistics for that?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But either way, there'll be a sale. So, that will all be at avalonx.us.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I'm actually running a Clean(ish) special for my DDD community. Well, if you want to join the Delay, Don't Deny community, we're having a Clean(ish) book study that starts on January 5th. So, with the promo code CLEANISH, you can save 15% on your Delay, Don't Deny community membership if you go to ginstephens.com/community. And we figured out the math of it. If you join with the promo code, CLEANISH which is 15% off a yearly membership, it costs less than $1 a week for a year. I mean, that is like, I don't know, that's just like buy different brand of butter one week and you've saved-- I don't know. [laughs]

You know, it's a very, very small amount and you get the community, and we're doing the Clean(ish) book study which is included. So, ginstephens.com/community, promo code CLEANISH. That's just going to be good until we start the book study. So, get on it. It's very exciting. I'm loving the new community, by the way, since we moved it. It is so good like it works and I got an email today from the company. They just got a $25 million investment from some kind of investor. So, their goal is to be the best community platform out there and I'm very excited that we're on it. That's a big deal.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: So many exciting things coming.

Gin Stephens: So, people are still loving your serrapeptase, then?

Melanie Avalon: As of this recording, people are just now starting to get it, so that the pictures are flooding in with people taking it, but it's really exciting. Yeah, people have already reported back. Some people have said that they've noticed differences already, and everybody is saying that they're not having any GI issues because serrapeptase is like the one thing that some people react to. And now, since, people are not reacting to mine, I really think it's probably the enteric coatings. Yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the serrapeptase as much as serrapeptase requires special coatings normally to be absorbed. So, I think people might have been having issues with that aspect. But mine, we'd like it's good. [giggles] So, I'm so excited. We're developing my second supplement. I'm not going to say what it is, but I'm trying to decide which form to do, and I've been doing a lot of research, and I think, it's going to be surprising the conclusion I reach, so listeners can stay tuned.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'll be so curious to hear.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Can I share a Christmas related story?

Gin Stephens: No. [laughs] I'm just kidding. Of course, you can. Please, I love Christmas. I'm sitting here with my Christmas coffee mug with empty in it. I've got my little Christmas tree. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners. What is empty for those who are not familiar?

Gin Stephens: It's hot water in a mug?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, two things, I went and picked out a Christmas tree with my dad, and I posted this on Instagram, but there was the most attractive Christmas tree man there like the man in charge of the Christmas trees, who like saws it and stuff. Oh, my goodness. And so, I posted about this through the video. And so, now, whenever I post anything, people ask about, am I going for Whole Foods guy or Christmas tree guy? My epiphany that I had-- I had this dumb blonde moment last night. Like this is definition dumb blonde, I can't even. So, when we were picking out the Christmas trees, I was thinking, "Hmm, people pick out smaller Christmas trees now." I was like, when I was little people picked-- Like the trees were bigger when I was little. I literally was thinking this seriously. And then, last night, I was decorating my Christmas tree with the lights, and I realized the reason I thought all the trees were smaller was because when I was little they looked bigger.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, yeah, that's true. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Literally, I felt like-- I probably for a week, I was like, "This is-- It's so weird." When I was little, people were buying bigger trees. But I guess with like COVID and--

Gin Stephens: Well, this is how you'll really know that's true. If you ever go back to your elementary school-- You'll go back to your elementary school and everything looks so different because you thought it was all giant, now it looks small? Yeah. That's a really good indication of that. But you're right. If you ever look at how children draw adults, they draw them with like giant legs like little kids. If they draw like a little family, the adults tend to have really long legs that are way out of proportion to the rest of their body. But imagine you're a tiny child, you see mostly leg. See, it is fun having an elementary teacher in your podcast. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I frame some pictures that my niece-- my niece and nephew drew. And I'm looking at them. Yeah, they do have very long legs.

Gin Stephens: I know. But that is because those kids are little and they look up and your legs look like they go on forever. It's just the proportion is wrong.

Melanie Avalon: Anyway, that's so funny. It was when I was decorating the top of the tree last night and I was like, "Oh, this was probably the size of the tree." When I was little, it probably wasn't. So, that was a moment. One more thing I just want to share really briefly, I plugged this last time, so, I'm currently creating my epic gift guide email lists. So, hopefully, people got that. So, that's actually on, oh, I didn't mention the email list earlier, so two email lists from people to get on. If they want information about the serrapeptase, go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase, S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. Now, list will also have information about the new supplement that I'm creating. But if you want my general updates like my Biohacking Christmas guide list that I'm working on right now, that's at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. In any case, I'm writing it right now and I'm putting all the things that are great for gifts, and I want to tell you, I mentioned it last time, Gin. ReMarkable. Do you know about reMarkable?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You told me about that. Yeah. Well, I think we talked about it last time.

Melanie Avalon: But not on the show.

Gin Stephens: I thought, we did. Because was it off the air?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I said, I had to tease it for listeners.

Gin Stephens: That's right and then he told me. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Because I was like, "I swear to God, you told me that," but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I did. Okay. You know when you get something and every time you use it, you're like, "Wow," Like, "Wow. this is changing my life." And then you're like, "How was I living without this?"

Gin Stephens: Does it save the notes?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, it's like-- kind of like an iPad, but way skinnier. You write with this pen thing. It feels more like writing on paper. That's how they market it. So, it doesn't really feel like a screen. It doesn't feel like paper, but it feels good. You can pick if you're-- Oh, so many options like a pen, a pencil, a ballpoint pen, a marker, and depending on what you're using. It feels like you're using that thing. So, if it's a pencil, it will look like pencil lead. If you go harder, it makes it darker compared to a pen where it pretty much always looks the same. You can make different notebooks or sheets of notes, and you write your notes, you just click convert to text, and you email it to yourself, and you have everything typed up. I can't believe I was-- I mean, this is saving me hours.

Gin Stephens: Does it have to convert to text because I like things that look like handwriting?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Because I would like to save handwritten notes because that just for me, that's how I remember things better. Tactile, because-- For example, I have a big notepad next-- on my desk, next to my computer, when I'm talking to somebody or doing something, I write stuff down. So, it's like all the stuff written down but it's like random stuff. Like, if you flip back, it's just a random, but it would be nice to have all that random stored somewhere. Because I'll be like, "I know. I wrote that on my notepad." But yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's actually even easier because so it automatically syncs, I think, with your eye clap. You can get it to sync with your computer. So, if you don't convert it to text, that's just automatically synced. So, I think, it is a drive on your computer.

Gin Stephens: But it looks like, you see it, it's written on paper while you're writing it. It feels and looks like you're writing on paper, and then it uploads it automatically. That is definitely something for me to play with. I would probably like that.

Melanie Avalon: And I was super impressed. I was playing with it at Thanksgiving and my mom started writing on it, and she was doing cursive, and I was like, "Oh, this is not going to figure out cursive." It figured it out perfectly when we converted it. Literally, listeners, my pattern of prepping for my other show, my Biohacking Podcast, every night for about three hours I read a book that I'm prepping and I take handwritten notes, and then the next day, I would retype them. So, now, every time I use it, I'm like, "I can't believe I was retyping this every day."

Gin Stephens: Now, I will tell you something from a teacher point of view. Retyping it--

Melanie Avalon: You are going to say you learn it more.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. [laughs] Like for me, what I was-- you know, if I really wouldn't, that would be like a way I would study is rewriting anyway. But if you don't need that extra step, then--

Melanie Avalon: When I was retyping it, it was pretty mindless. Like I would watch stuff and I wouldn't really pay attention. It's when I reorganize the retyped information that I learn it.

Gin Stephens: Okay. So, you're not using the typing as a learning. Okay.

Melanie Avalon: No. Essentially, rewrite what I retyped. And that's when I--

Gin Stephens: Because that rewriting part actually gets it into your brain better rather than just rereading your notes actually rewriting it, because it's going in your brain differently. Your processing it more. The more you process it, the more you're going to remember it.

Melanie Avalon: It's when I reorganize the information that I really learn it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's also why the teachers now that just write up notes and hand them out to the kids like, "Here are your notes that I wrote for you to have," they are missing the important step of the children taking notes and processing it. They are impacting learning. Anyway, I could talk about that a lot. [laughs] Taking the notes, and I also really believe writing them by hand is better than typing them as far as memory. That tactile writing versus click, click, click. It just gets it in there differently.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. A fellow podcaster reached out to me and they were like, "Can you tell me your process? How many hours do you spend on each show?" I had never thought about that. Like, how many hours do I spend prepping? I really don't know, but I told them, I think, it's probably between like 10 and 50 hours or 40. I don't know. But now that I have reMarkable-- [laughs] take it down. I don't have a code. I've been begging them. I'm like, "Please give me a discount code." They said, "They might in the future." So, I don't know. If you guys get it, tell them I sent you. So, I'm really trying to convince them to give me.

Gin Stephens: So, they'll be like, "Yeah, I'd to give you a code."

Melanie Avalon: I want them to know that like, literally, I want everybody to have this and I want them to know how much I am sharing them. So, they'll maybe in the future, give me a code.

Gin Stephens: Because we love it or you love it. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds like I would love it. But that's the thing about the things we share. It's stuff we love and a lot of the things for example that I promote on Intermittent Fasting Stories that have ads for, it's because I've said to my ad team, "I would like to have like for example Green Chef because I use them. Please, get me Green Chef." And then, they did. Because I'm like, I really, really love them. Like, Daily Harvest. I'm like, "Please get me Daily Harvest," and then, they figured out how to. Because I was already using it and like for you, reMarkable, give me a code. [laughs] Because it's stuff we love, and we talk about it, and it feels better to promote something we love. I will never promote something I don't truly love.

Melanie Avalon: Me neither. It's pretty much all I do. Just tell people what I love.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's really what we do. It's so much fun. I used to tell people what I loved all the time just as a random person. My elementary school is where it would be, you are like doing something about. But I'm like, "Ooh, let me tell you what I love. Let me tell you the best dry erase markers." And they were trying to be like, "Wow, these are better. We are mavens according to--"

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe that's why we're podcasters.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, according to, what's his name? Malcolm Gladwell, 'we are mavens.'

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, a really quick tangent. I just listened to an interview on Peter Attia with some guy who wrote a book, there's some book about like geneticism, and-- The Genetics of Talent.

Gin Stephens: I mean, is it Malcolm Gladwell? Because he has a book about Talent, but it's not about necessarily genetics.

Melanie Avalon: Well, no, this guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.

Gin Stephens: Well, Malcolm Gladwell does talk about the 10,000 hours in his book.

Melanie Avalon: Right. This guy was deconstructing the 10,000 hours.

Gin Stephens: Like the opposite of that?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure that I haven't seen that one. Yeah, Malcolm Gladwell is who actually introduced me to the idea of there being 10,000 hours. If you practice something for 10,000 hours, you will be a master of it. So, this guy's saying, no?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Peter Attia interviewed David Epstein. The book they were talking about was The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance. I've read a lot of Malcolm Gladwell stuff, and I'd read the 10,000 hours, and according to David Epstein, those studies are all incorrect, like, they were just wrong. He basically makes the case that it's not 10,000 hours, and it's genetic.

Gin Stephens: I think that 10,000 hours might be an overly simple way of looking at it because for example, I could practice gymnastics for 10,000 hours and I would not be able to go to the Olympics. I would never be a great gymnast. I don't have the right genetics like you're saying. But if you do, like for example, Will-- my son, Will is an amazingly gifted trombone player, who wasn't going to do music when he went to Davidson Fine Arts, we'd already signed up for something else, and then we were picking Calla, we walked in the music room to pick up Cal, and they had like, the new students were looking at the equipment. Will picked up a trumpet, never had held a brass instrument before. It's really hard to make a sound on the mouthpiece of a trumpet and a trombone. I don't know if you've ever tried.

Melanie Avalon: I think I tried once in middle school and I was like, "This is not for me." Oh, yeah, that's what it was. It's like, when you do the band class or like to see if you actually want to do band and you're like, "Nope." Oh, I was like, "No." [giggles]

Gin Stephens: Well, Will picked it up, had never touched one, held it to his lips, and made a beautiful sound the first time. And the girl that we were actually picking up said, "Mr. Kennedy, come listen to this." I thought, she was a student. Will played it for Mr. Kennedy, and the guys like, "Sign up for band." [laughs] So, we went and switched everything, and we got to the-- I mean, Will was first year All-State Band. He also put in the hours. I really do think you have to have a combination of talent and the practice. I think, you can't do without both, right?

Melanie Avalon: I think so. They were talking about that a lot in the interview. I'll put a link to in the show notes. It was David Epstein on Peter Attia. The Peter Attia episode was called How a range of experience leads to better performance in a highly specialized world? which is about one of David Epstein's other books. They were talking about that. Like the nuances and complexities of talent versus--

Gin Stephens: Practice.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You got to have a little bit of both. Like I said, there is no way-- you know, my mom was a dance teacher. I do not have a ballet body. My legs are not right, I'm not limber. I can get more limber. I know I could increase my-- But I'm never going to have the lines, the long legs. I'm not built that way. So, I could practice for 10 million hours. [laughs] I wasn't going to be a ballerina.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

In fact, I even got robbed last year and I went from crying with stress and anxiety to taking some Feals and laughing. I said to my mom, “Mom, see how effective this is.” Due to all of its health benefits, we knew we wanted to partner with a CBD company for the podcast, but I have very stringent criteria. You guys know this. So many brands approached us, and I kept just saying, “No,” because nothing fit all of my criteria. I wanted CBD oil that was full-spectrum, tested for purity, organic, made with MCT oil as the carrier and that I actually experienced benefits from, that's a pretty tall order to fill. We said no to a lot of brands and then Feals came along and it was meant to be. I personally tried it out and started seeing massive effects on my sleep and stress. Feals is so easy to take. You can just put a few drops under your tongue and you'll feel the difference within minutes. I truly do feel it within minutes.

Of course, it is important to remember that CBD works differently for everybody based on your own unique cannabinoid system. You might need to work to find your perfect dose. Experiment over the course of a week or so, and you may find that you need more or less depending on the effects that you're looking for. I'm also super grateful because they have an incredible offer for our audience. You can start feeling better with Feals. Become a member today, by going to feals.com/ifpodcast and you'll get 50% off your first order with free shipping. That's F-E-A-L-S dotcom slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping, feals.com/ifpodcast. When you get that offer, you'll be joining the Feals community and you'll get Feals delivered directly to your doorstep every month. You'll save money on every order. Of course, you can pause or cancel anytime. Definitely try it out for the first month with our code for 50% off and see how it works for you. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: So, a lot of listeners will DM me on Instagram, and ask questions, and also on my Facebook group, IF Biohackers which everybody should join, and I try to answer everybody that I can, and this one listener reached out to me, we were first talking because she was playing around with her ZOE, the ZOE program that Gin and I've both done, which is where you eat muffins at certain macronutrients, and you were a CGM, and you see how your body processes carbs and fat, and you see about your gut microbiome. So, in any case, she had gotten back her ZOE results. Oh, and she said, I could say her name. I think she wanted me to say her name. Her name was Tracy.

Gin Stephens: Hello, Tracy.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And so, she has gotten back her ZOE results and her blood sugar was good. It was 74 but her fat control was 57, which was not so good. She'd been fasting for 20 hours, and she'd been doing keto, and she was talking to me because she was saying that, she's never satisfied and she's not losing weight, and that she was eating beef, fish, low carb, always under 40 grams in medium fat, and then etc. And so, I told her, I was like, "Have you tried upping your protein and have you possibly tried high protein, high carb, low fat," which I would have suggested anyways? But especially with her ZOE results, which were showing that she was good with carbs, not so good with fat, and I just thought this was such an interesting conversation, and I wanted to share it because of her experience, because people are so scared often to-- if they've been doing low carb to switch to high carb, low fat. They're just convinced they're going to gain weight. I'm just like I always have to explain that, if you're doing fasting and you're doing high carb, low fat and actually low fat and especially if you have a smaller eating window, which you know, she was doing a four-hour eating window, at the very least, it's unlikely you're going to gain weight, even if you gain like water weight.

Gin Stephens: Like four pounds. Right. For me, the low carb effect was four pounds, I would start a low-carb diet, I would immediately drop four pounds and then I never lost another pound again ever no longer matter how long I did it. And then, the minute I introduced carbs again, backup four pounds. So, my glycogen storage water weight issue is four pounds.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And the thing is, so, besides that four pounds it's unlikely you're going to actually gain weight if you're actually doing low fat. Because protein does not easily become fat, carbs actually don't easily become fat, and then if you're fasting everyday as well, it's unlikely. So, you can at least know that. Like at the very least, I'm probably not going to gain weight which is what most people's fear is. So, I was asking her about it, she said, "I haven't tried high carb, low fat. I'm kind of nervous. I usually stay under 40 grams of carbs and fat is usually 70 to 80 grams."

I encouraged her more to try it, and she said, "I'm going to try. I'm nervous, but I'm definitely going to try. I appreciate you." And then, I explained a little bit what I just said to you. So, the first day she reported back, she said, "Yesterday, I had all protein with raspberries, and strawberries, and blueberries, I woke up feeling really good, I checked my ketones and my blood, and my ketones were 0.6, and my blood was 71." So, her blood sugar was 71, and she's still high ketones. So, she was very surprised and she said like, "How low is too low for fat? Not really eating anything with fat and other than my protein, do you think that's okay? I almost reached for the nuts but that's a slippery slope." And I told her that, if you're eating animal protein at least you're probably getting fat in there. So, I told her not to stress about the fat issue, especially, because she was eating chicken breast, 4% beef, and fish. And when-- then I told her that nuts, nuts, yes, nuts can be a slippery slope, and those would be adding some fat.

So, then she kept doing it, and then she reported back again a few days later, and she said, "This is very interesting. I am on--" Oh, no. She says it was day two. She said, "I'm on day two with protein and fruit. I have more energy after fasting 20 or 21 hours than I've ever had before. My ketones are higher within the last two days than they have been in the last couple of weeks. The only thing is, I don't know how long I can keep eating the fruit and protein. But for now, I'm just going to enjoy it and I'm down a pound. It's probably all water, though."

Gin Stephens: Well, I wouldn't say so, especially, if she's introduced more carbs. If she's down a pound and has reintroduced carbs that would not be water weight. That would be fat loss in my mind.

Melanie Avalon: So, then she said-- the next day, she said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm down another pound, what?" And then, she reported back the next day, she said, "I'm so happy about this new way of eating. I'm actually even eating dates and I feel amazing, low fat for the win, I appreciate you." So, I didn't share that to say everybody needs to do low fat. I just found it so inspiring for people who maybe fasting, maybe doing one of the approaches, possibly low carb or keto. And if it's not working, it's okay to try something else and it might work.

Gin Stephens: Here's what stands out to me. She followed the ZOE recommendations. See, if you read the science written by somebody who loves low carb or keto, they tell you all the reasons why it's how everyone should eat, and it's very convincing, and then you're like, "I'm going to do that," and then, like her, you're like, "You know what? I don't feel satisfied. I'm not really liking this. It's doesn't feel right." Well, her ZOE shows why. She has great blood sugar control, not as great fat control. So, she flip-flopped it, matched her ZOE recommendations. They're not just giving everybody the same ZOE recommendations, right? We're all getting personalized ones. She started eating based on that and she felt better.

Now, I don't know that she has to just stick to fruit and protein. I would like to see her add in some other carbs. They give you lists, and scores, and dig into their app, and look into your score. You make-- craft a meal that has a high score using their app. That's why it's there. Don't feel scared. She's scared. We're scared to change our diet, right? If you feel like one way is like "best." She had gotten in her mind, "I got to be doing this low carb. That's what my body wants and needs." But number one, she wasn't satisfied. I was never satisfied on low carb. When she switched to something that fit her body better, she was satisfied and losing weight. Love it.

Melanie Avalon: And I saw this exact same thing. I've seen it with a lot of people but there's another girl that follows me on Instagram. She was doing carnivore for the longest time. We were having a dialogue about, how I do lean protein and fruit. She was super, super nervous to try. But then, she finally did and it's just funny because it's always the exact same sentiments. It was the same thing that this girl said. She was saying like, "I have so much energy all of a sudden, like I'm full, I just feel better." I know you were saying like adding in other different types of carbs, but I do think there is a subset of people that do really well on a fruit and protein type approach.

Gin Stephens: But you'll never know if you're going to do better with other ones unless you try. Just because you're doing well on fruit and protein, it doesn't mean you're not going to do-- I mean, keep in mind. The ZOE is also been looking at your gut microbiome because they're not just blindly making recommendations. It's based on your control and your gut microbiome. So, you can trust that they've got some scientifically based data from you that they're making these recommendations on. That's all I'm saying. Maybe not everyone's going to be great with the same things like corn, I don't know. But if it doesn't work for your gut, but that doesn't mean that it won't work for someone else's.

Melanie Avalon: We know what's interesting about the ZOE thing because that was a really good point about how Tracy switch to what matched her ZOE. But what's interesting is that, my ZOE, I'm good with fat and not good with carbs, but what I do is pretty much high carb, low fat with fasting and that still does work for me. So, I think there's something to even if you're not good at processing carbs, I think, if one is going to process carbs and they're not good at processing carbs doing it in a lower fat context, it can be key for a lot of people.

Gin Stephens: Well, see now for me, I'm going to just say, maybe, it's because you always have it with protein. If I have high carb, low fat in isolation, I feel awful.

Melanie Avalon: Without protein or with protein?

Gin Stephens: Or, without protein or fat. I really eat and I got to have some fat.

Melanie Avalon: Without protein, I would be starving.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If I don't have enough-- I feel better with mixed meals, honestly. I'm more likely to have-- and not all carbs are the same but as we know with bio-individuality, but certain-- if I just have really low fat, if I just ate certain fruits by themselves, if I just ate pineapple for example, I don't think I'd feel good.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I can't eat fruit by itself. I would be miserable. It has to be with a protein. The [unintelligible [00:36:22] people, which is basically where that idea really exists a lot, that high protein, high fruit, they like the fruit because it mitigates some of the stress response of eating just protein. One thing I love about ZOE though I'm very, very impressed with-- So, when you do it, you actually have a call with one of the people there. I have been sending my contact there. She's not special not special for me because I work with ZOE, this is the contact through just doing the ZOE program. I've been asking her so many questions about different foods in the app, and how they relate to certain scores, and I'm very impressed. She has checked on every single question that I've asked. Sometimes, it takes her over a week because she's asking the science team, but she always gets back to me. It's very, very impressive. [unintelligible [00:37:10].

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I'm impressed with them just in general. Oh, we are. Actually, I'm going to be having a webinar with Tim Spector in my community in January. I'm so excited. It's going to be just for people who are in the DDD community. They'll be able to join like-- 500 people will be able to join the Zoom call live, and then it'll be play but it'll only be in the community. But I've never actually talked to him person to person. So, I'm excited. You have, you've talked to him. He wrote the foreword for Clean(ish), which is thrilling because I love him. Anyway, so, I'm going to have face to face webinar with him for my community.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, congratulations on that by the way. It's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: I know.

Melanie Avalon: The foreword.

Gin Stephens: I know. It really is. I'm just really grateful to have that connection with him because I've been a fan of his, before I ever wrote my first book or appeared on my first podcast. I was just a person and I read The Diet Myth and it blew my mind. And it really informed me, I learned so much.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I'm going to be a perpetual fan girl my entire life. I interact with these people, I'm just so excited. It's just very surreal, even though, I've had hundreds of guests.

Gin Stephens: Well, we don't take it for granted, right? We know that they are special people and we're grateful for the opportunity to be able to talk to them.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: And everyone's so nice. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know, I know, I know. I think on Friday I'm getting together with hopefully knock-on wood. Dr. Zielinski, who wrote that Essential Oil book. I didn't realize he lives in Atlanta. So, I'm getting together with him and his wife for dinner. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love that. It's so fun.

Melanie Avalon: Already. So, we have a question from Josh. The subject is: 'Suggestions for my wife?' Josh says, "Hey, gals, I discovered your podcast a few months ago as I began intermittent fasting. Your information is very valuable and I have learned a great deal from you. My wife dabbled in fasting about a year or so ago, but struggled and backed out. Since, I have started shortly after Valentine's Day 2020, she decided to start again. However, she again is struggling and told me very recently that she gained five pounds in about four days of clean fasting and is taking a break from it once again. She's convinced that the only way she can lose weight is via calorie counting. Background, she is 30 years old. In the last year or so, she had a tubal ligation and prior to that tried numerous forms of contraceptives. She and I are pretty certain that her hormones are all over the board, mood swings, acne, heavy periods, constant stuffiness, etc. She recently started taking primrose and flax daily to begin correcting hormonal imbalances, but has stopped because of a suspected food intolerance that is currently being tested by Everlywell. The results should be here any day. I am unsure exactly of what she ate inside her window. I just know it was an eight-hour window. Her and I have tried talking about IF, but I can be abrasive and the talks don't go well. Any thoughts or advice you may have would be great as I just want her to feel better about her health and appearance. I know IF would help, if not eradicate the issues over time, but any advice would be better received from you gals."

Gin Stephens: All right. So, Josh, I love that your wife is interested, she's intrigued with the idea of fasting, but struggling, and I'm glad that you want to help her. So, there are two things that pop out at me as so important. First of all, she gained five pounds in four days of a clean fast. It is 100% impossible to gain five pounds of fat in four days. I don't really say that, but I can't imagine [laughs] I know it's impossible for your wife, but what she was eating in eight hours. But I can't imagine a scenario where anyone would really be able to store five pounds of fat in four days, especially, if they've just started fasting. So, that's the good news.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Can I just comment really quick on that?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: That'd be really hard to do. Even if you literally took in all the calories needed for that, the body does not want to gain five pounds of fat that fast.

Gin Stephens: No. But so, that's not what happened. She did not gain five pounds of fat. She is somebody it sounds like to me that is very scale focused, but fluctuations mess her up. So, she needs to learn get a long-term approach with that. But also, she had an eight-hour window, but she only did it for four days. So, here is what I want you to have her do. I want you to buy her a paperback copy of Fast. Feast. Repeat, not just because I want to sell her a book, but by the way, Melanie, this is super exciting. Fast. Feast. Repeat has been number one in weight loss for like, I don't know, a week or two now. Number one every day. I look at it, it's been number one. Like Obesity Code is not number one, and I love Jason Fung, I love The Obesity Code. But it's just so much fun to see Fast. Feast. Repeat number one. So, anyway, I really think she needs to read it herself. You can tell her all day long, but she's got to read it from me. That's the best way.

Have her start with the 28-Day FAST Start chapter. Even though, that's not chapter one because it wouldn't flow well for that to be the first chapter, but have her start reading the 28-Day FAST Start chapter first, where she's going to weigh and measure before she starts, and then she's never going to weigh and measure again until day 29. Then her scale can go crazy and also, she won't see it. Also, you know, it's fine to start with an eight-hour window, especially, if you're choosing the fast start approach where you're easing in. But if weight loss is her goal, an eight-hour window may not be her weight loss sweet spot. A lot of guys can just boom, do an eight-hour window, boom, they lose the weight. Women are different. Our bodies have different needs, we may not need as much food as that. So, an eight-hour window is probably not her weight loss sweet spot. That doesn't mean it's not a great place to start and it doesn't mean that it won't be her sweet spot. I know women who especially, if they're more restrained eaters. They're used to eating slightly and that feels good to them. Maybe, an eight-hour window is perfect. For someone like me, I like to eat a hearty meal, eight-hour window was a disaster.

She needs to also really understand the difference between low-calorie dieting and why intermittent fasting is so different in the body. That's all fully explained in the introductory chapters of Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, she can start with a 28-Day Fast Start, then go back to the beginning and read through it, and really understand how a low-calorie diet lets us down. Because very few of us, I mean, I'm not going to say it's impossible because that would be wrong. There are people who can long term do a low-calorie diet and through sheer will and determination and because they can stick to it and they keep their calories low enough, they can lose the weight and keep it off. But that's not what happens for most of us. We might be able to lose the weight, but then we rebound weight gain or there it's back again. We yo-yo. That's how it was for me. You can only white knuckle a low-calorie diet for so long for most of us. Before your body starts to rebel and then you're binging, and then you're overeating, then you're like, "This low-calorie diet, I hate it." Then, you regain the weight, you feel like you failed, but really, it was your body doing what it does when it thinks you're starving. So, all throughout Fast. Feast. Repeat I explain why fasting is different from those typical low-calorie diets.

So, I really think that's the best thing. Let me explain it to her through the form of Fast. Feast. Repeat, have her start with a 28-Day Fast Start chapter, then go back through the part about low-calorie dieting and the Biggest Loser study and all of that, and the Minnesota Starvation experiment, then you really understand it and you start reading about it, you're like, "That's exactly how I felt when I did a low-calorie diet." And now, you understand why and you can like be relieved like, "Oh, I didn't fail. When I regained all the weight. It was my body." She also needs to really focus on the 'Scale, Schmale' chapter because if she is seeing the weight fluctuate up five pounds, I mean, as women our weight can go up five pounds because we're starting our period. But if those kinds of fluctuations make her give up, then she's got to have a long-term approach and in the Scale Schmale chapter I explain how to do that. Only her trend matters, not the day-to-day fluctuations. All right, that's all I got to say about that. I'm like Forrest Gump today.

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Gin Stephens: Shall we go on to our next question. Did you have anything you wanted to add?

Melanie Avalon: I did. I just wanted to comment that this kind of reminds me of what we were talking about earlier with Tracy. So, Tracy was so, so nervous about switching to high carb, low fat and it's kind of like with Josh's wife, she's super, super nervous about not calorie counting. So, I think, it requires a paradigm shift. If the person can understand and Josh rather than telling her this, you can just have her listen to us talking about it. But if the person can understand that, maybe that paradigm that they're holding about diet might not actually be necessarily true, there's a lot of potential freedom on the other side. When it comes to IF, again, like Gin was saying, eight hours might not have been short enough of an eating window for her. If she tries a shorter eating window, even if she's not calorie counting, it's harder to overeat in a shorter eating window calorie wise.

So, she really doesn't have to be calorie counting with fasting if she can find the window that works for her and still be getting the benefits. If she does want another added "safety" to that eating window and that not calorie counting, things I was talking about earlier with like looking at the macros. You know, if she tries eating either low fat or low carb in that eating window as well that will make it even less likely that she will, at the very least gain weight changing to the fasting. And on top of that there's just so many potential benefits with the fasting, possibly, it can help with her hormones and also hoping that she figures out the food intolerances that she's having. But there's definitely, just goes back to like Tracy saying like, I sense a lot of fear with her, it might be unfounded.

Gin Stephens: And also, four days is just really not enough time to judge fasting. That's why I had the 28-Day FAST Start and I'm so glad I thought of that putting that in the book. It was through all those years of guiding people through the Intermittent Fasting Support groups, and realizing that if people could just make it a certain amount of time, they would be okay. But it was getting them there. If you're expecting, you're going to lose weight in the first four days and then you don't, then you're like, "Well, this is crap. I'm not doing this." But if you go into it knowing, "Hey, I'm not even supposed to lose weight at the beginning and my body is adjusting, I'm going to learn how to fast first, then I could focus on weight loss." If you go in with that expectation, now, you've let your body adjust, you're much less likely to quit. I just saw that over time, so, I'm really glad I actually thought about how to put it in the book.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Shall we do one more question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. This is from Erin and the subject is: 'Microbiome.' "Hello, Gin and Melanie, I've been listening to your podcast for about a year and I love it. I've learned so much and appreciate your layman's approach to some of the sciency topics. One area that I've learned a lot about thanks to you, ladies, is our microbiome. I've kind of become obsessed with gut health and digestion. My question for you is about prebiotics and probiotics. Can you get enough via food or need to take a supplement as well? Are there better kinds than others? Basically, what's the skinny on prebiotics and probiotics and what are your recommendations? Thank you for taking the time to review my question and keep up the good work, Erin."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Erin. So, thank you so much for your question. So, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I also can say them pretty simply, which is that I think the gut microbiome is so, so important. I think it's affecting so many things and I also think we know so very little about it. I think the more we learn about it, the more we realize that we don't know that much. It's shocking everything that the gut microbiome affects. So, we don't even realize like, for example, I was researching berberine recently. A supplement that you can take to lower your blood sugar. A lot people will say that that dihydroberberine form is more easily absorbed in the body and so I was researching it and actually, the way we absorb berberine normally is we take in berberine and then our gut microbiome actually converts berberine to dihydroberberine and then it goes across our cell wall and then it converts back into berberine, which is super crazy. The point of all that is that, the gut microbiome is doing so many things with how we process food and we don't even realize it. That said, as far as modulating our gut microbiome via probiotics and prebiotics, so, what are the differences?

Probiotics are the actual microbiome strains, so the different gut bacteria. Prebiotics are the foods that feed the gut microbiome. So, they help you grow certain gut bacteria. There's a lot of debate out there about whether or not you can grow new bacteria if you don't already have that species. That's something, I actually, recently interviewed Dr. Neal Barnard and [giggles] it was a very interesting episode. We talked about that and I talked about it with Tim Spector as well. One of the things that Tim Spector pointed out was that, it's easier to actually wipe out your bad bacteria than it is to grow good bacteria, all of that to say, choosing between prebiotics and probiotics. So, probiotics, I just think it's like this swamp land where we don't know very much. I think try different probiotics, see how they make you feel, definitely give them some time if you are trying them. Some people might benefit from particularly low histamine producing probiotics because some probiotics are high in histamine or can produce histamine. So, you might want to look for a low histamine probiotic blend.

We often work with BiOptimizers. They have a P3-OM probiotic. It's a single strain probiotic. I do really like that probiotic. But when it comes to probiotics, it's really just try once and see what they do for you. I actually really like fermented foods for helping introduce probiotic cultures to your gut. As far as prebiotics, it's ironic because in a way almost every food is a prebiotic. Because a prebiotic just means that it's feeding your gut bacteria, and pretty much everything we eat feeds some sort of bacteria in some way. But the concept of prebiotic is that it's beneficial. I personally am not a fan of like prebiotic supplements. I would rather eat the foods that will cultivate a certain gut microbiome. I just don't see any reason for it. It seems like we're trying to feed things that we might not even know if they're there. It's a refined form of food. I would just go to the foods.

Gin Stephens: Eat food that's prebiotic. Yeah. Me, too.

Melanie Avalon: So, do you have thoughts about that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I just you know, in general, it's better to get it from food. Both the prebiotics and probiotics like Melanie said, with the fermented foods and everything, so, I don't take a prebiotic or a probiotic. I do eat fermented foods. When I think about it or when I can, I eat a high vegetable diet. I try to get a lot of different variety of vegetables in my diet. Tim Spector talks about this. I see him on Instagram him always mentioning, trying to have a wide variety of different plant foods. I think you're better off to try to eat, I don't know, 20 or 30, I can't remember. Some big number of different plant foods every week because then you're also going to get the phytochemicals that we're not even knowing what they are all in there. There're thousands of them in those foods. So, you're going to be getting so many benefits that you don't even know you're getting, but your body knows what to do with it. So, try to eat a variety of different foods and I'm talking about the vegetable foods and fruits. But I don't need as many fruits.

Melanie Avalon: And then, it also might depend on your actual resident microbiome, how you tolerate those foods or not. Check out last week's episode because I think that's when we talked about the study that looked at people eating fermented foods versus a high-fiber diet. I'm pretty sure, Gin that we talked about it last week.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember when that was, but it was just interesting if you've been eating the standard American diet long term, you're very likely to have a damaged gut lining because that's what happens with a standard American diet. So, you're going to have to take the time to rebuild it and that's the part that's tricky. So, people eat the foods, they're like, "These foods make me so sick or they don't work for my gut." Well, it's because your gut is damaged that the foods don't work. You've got to slowly rebuild your gut. I love, I can't pronounce the author's last name. It's Will something with the B, the book, Fiber Fueled, such a good book. I would read it-- Have you interviewed him, you have? Haven't you?

Melanie Avalon: I have the contact for him. He was supposed to book and he never did.

Gin Stephens: Well, I love his book. Fiber Fueled, great book. I talk about it in Clean(ish), but get Fiber Fueled and read it. Who was that guy we had on that was the gut guy before? Both Fiber Fueled and--

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Rochelle.

Gin Stephens: Maybe. But both of them talk about how your gut can heal. That's the takeaway. Your gut can heal, and so, maybe grains don't work for you now, but you can heal. We're supposed to be able to tolerate a wide variety of foods in a healthy body. So, it's all about healing the body, but I really think Fiber Fueled is a great book. I would check that one out.

Melanie Avalon: I need to read it. I was going to read it when I thought he was coming on the show. So, I'm going to reach back out to them today.

Gin Stephens: Somebody, actually, today asked me if I'd ever heard of it. I'm like, "Not only have I heard of it, but I recommend it highly." He also is working with ZOE now. I read his book before he was associated with ZOE. I think he's on the board of directors or something. But when I saw that they had added him to the board of directors. I was like, "I already love him," and he's from Charleston anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. The show notes, which will have-- and full transcript and everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode244. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, but enjoyed it, and I'll talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

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LINKS

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Dec 12

Episode 243: Fasted Exercise, Post Surgery Biohacks, Antibiotics, Probiotics, Fermented Foods, Nut Milk, Soy, Veganism, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 243 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 243 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. Winter aka sick season is upon us and we all know that this is the time of year to take extra care to protect ourselves from germs and bacteria. Of course, you can do everything right, wash your hands, keep your hands away from your face, carry around some hand sanitizer, but you still get sick. That's why you need to protect your body from the inside not just the out. And you can do that by building up your immune system with some high quality and high strength probiotics. That's why I'm really excited about P3-OM. P3-OM is a patented probiotic that might be the most effective probiotic ever developed. P3-OM fights bacteria and strengthens immunity. It's basically a germ fighting superhero. But it also helps digestion, it speeds up metabolism, and increases energy throughout the day, which is way more than you might have thought probiotics could do. And just when I thought P3-OM couldn't get any more powerful, I watched a video which you can see at p3om.com/ifpodcast of the probiotic literally breaking down a piece of steak. After I saw that, I was all in. You guys are going to be so amazed, too. Definitely, check out that video.

Here's some more awesome news. You can get 10% off P3-OM right now by going to p3om.com/ifpodcast and typing in the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And here's the thing. If you order it and it's not everything you hoped for, BiOptimizer support team will give you all of your money back, no questions asked. So, if you want to protect yourself from whatever bug is floating around this year, and take your digestion to a new level, visit p3om.com/ifpodcast to get a 10% discount with the coupon code IFPODCAST10. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right now back to the show.

Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 243 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great. I'm getting super excited. Well, the time, this comes out December 13th, we are just really close to the release of Clean(ish).

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is and so, I have been flushing out my plans for what we're going to do. And we're going to have a book study in the Delay, Don't Deny Community.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, anybody who's listening, if you would like to take part in that book study, go ahead and preorder now. Even if you don't want to take part in the book study, I'd love you to preorder now. It comes out January 4th, you're going to want to have it. But if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can join the community. And we're going to be doing the book study right there. Like we're going to be walking our way because Clean(ish) is not the kind of book you sit down and you read the whole book, and then you're like, "All right, I read that book." No, it's like you work through it. It was written by a teacher and it's very teachery. [laughs] So, it's like a step-by-step process. So, we're going to go through the chapters and take our time, we're also going to be having a book study on the Life Lessons Podcast starting January 5th. So, January 4th, preorder now, January 4th is when you'll get the book. January 5th, an episode of Life Lessons will come out, getting us kind of started on the book study, then we'll have every other episode will be about Clean(ish) topics. And then in the DDD community, ginstephens.com/community, we'll be actually having a community book study where we work our way through it and support each other as we become more cleanish.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that is very exciting.

Gin Stephens: I have so much work to do. [laughs] But it's teacher work and I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Did you finish recording the audiobook?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm so glad. I love to talk, but I don't love to read my books out loud. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's a lot.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, recording a podcast, love it. Recording an audio book, would rather stab daggers into my eyes. Not really but you know what I mean.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is. It's a lot.

Gin Stephens: It's tedious. The word is tedious.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited to read Clean(ish). I haven't read it yet.

Gin Stephens: I know. I don't want to send you a copy till we have the good ones in. The ones that are out right now that people have the early reader copies. Like the moderators in my group got them and a few people got them, but there's a lot of formatting flaws in the early reader copy, because it was based on a very early version you know, how that works. And so, they didn't have the chapters formatted properly. So, you're reading and then there's something that looks like a heading, but it's really a new chapter title, and you can't really tell. We fixed all that. It's perfect now, but it's just weird in the early reader copies. I like it to be right when people see it.

Melanie Avalon: I understand. I'm excited to read it.

Gin Stephens: You need the good copy. So, anyway, January 4, it's coming out.

Melanie Avalon: Although, depending on, I might listen to the audiobook actually.

Gin Stephens: This is really a book it's-- I think its-- I know you love to listen to audiobooks. This is one, I mean, I'm not going to say no one get the audiobook. People will enjoy the audiobook, but I think you also want a paperback copy. This is one of those times when just the audio is not quite going to be enough if that makes sense. You want the paperback and you can supplement with the audiobook to listen to the chapter. I mean, it's totally up to you, but this is one you're going to want to look at.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, I might do the audiobook and then--

Gin Stephens: I'll make sure you get a copy of the final. You do not have to buy one. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, also, preorder to support. Let me write that down.

Gin Stephens: Well, I appreciate that. That's really nice of you, preorder the audible then if you think you want that.

Melanie Avalon: I will. Oh, perfect. Yeah, that's what I'll do.

Gin Stephens: You can use an Audible credit. Oh, my God, Audible is sponsoring this episode.

Melanie Avalon: Are they really?

Gin Stephens: I didn't even know but yes. [laughs] There'll be an ad coming later everyone at some point.

Melanie Avalon: Listen to the Audible ad.

Gin Stephens: But yes. So, you can use one of your Audible credits for Clean(ish). But you also are going to want the paperback for Clean(ish) just-- Like I said, it's not like Fast. Feast. Repeat., I feel like a lot of people would like to have the paperback for that one, but the Audible is enough if you're a really good listener. But for Clean(ish), I think you're going to want both. Not just because I'm trying to sell you two books, I'm not.

Melanie Avalon: I understand exactly what you're saying. Some books, just because of the formatting and the content, they just need that print version for the full experience.

Gin Stephens: Yes, you got it. So, anyway, I'm very excited about the book coming out, and I really hope people love it. I want people to really understand the 'ish' part. Because I know that when people read it, they're going to be wanting to do everything 100%. But it's the 'ish' that makes it doable. Because we can't do everything on day one. I don't do everything. I'm ish, cleanish.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very excited. So, for listeners, we'll put links in the show notes to all of those things. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode243.

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you? Tell me.

Melanie Avalon: Can I tell you about my serrapeptase launch?

Gin Stephens: I was knowing you would and excited about it. People haven't gotten it though, have they?

Melanie Avalon: Some have.

Gin Stephens: Oh, ooh, that's so exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. We haven't talked since then. I was going to tell you but I was like, I'll just wait and tell you on the show. So, then, it's not repetitive. So, well, I have learned so much about so much [laughs] very short amount of time. So, as listeners are likely familiar, I released my first supplement, which is serrapeptase that we've been talking about for years on this show. Since, almost day one of the show, we've been talking about it. It's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream, and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins, so, it can help things like allergies, and inflammation, and fibroids, and it helps with wound healing, and it may reduce cholesterol, and it can breakdown amyloid plaque, it just does so many things.

Gin Stephens: And I tell you, I actually saw something about it the other day in the scheme of like COVID.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there is a study about that, that I am not allowed to talk about.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, I just mentioned it, but I saw something about that because you know, you got to be really careful. You can't say you know anything about COVID but I saw it, and it made me think "Ooh, maybe I should take serrapeptase."

Melanie Avalon: There's a really good study about serrapeptase and COVID. It's funny though, working with the company that I work with. We just want to be super careful.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Can't make any claims about COVID. But people can read the study themselves.

Melanie Avalon: I have an epic blog post about it on my website. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/serrapeptasescience, that's my original blog post that I wrote with a deep dive into the science, and it does have that study referenced. I was doing a shorter, modified version for the supplement website, which is avalonx.us. And I was talking with my partner and he was like, "You got to take out everything COVID." So, I still had it in the references. He's like, "Nope, [laughs] take it out of there." He's like, "Nothing on the site." Yes, if you want the full version, go to the melanieavalon.com. But in any case, things I have learned, so, I really wanted to do a midnight release because midnight releases are so exciting. It reminds me of, what things come out at midnight? Like Taylor Swift's music or book releases, Harry Potter. So, I want to do it for the excitement, nothing to do with my sleep cycle being a night person. So, I got so many comments from people saying that, a midnight release was really only for the night people. Like that it was wasn't fair for morning people. So, that was a lesson learned that I don't know, to be wary of that.

Then, so, the day of the release, we realized there was something wrong in the website that I had created. Again, avalonx.us. So, they decided-- the company I work with, MD Logic, they decided to rebuild my entire website themselves, which was insane and brilliant and I'm so grateful. But so, they rebuilt all of it to fix that error. It went live beyond my control around like 11 instead of midnight. Once it did people started ordering because I guess they were checking, so, I was like, "Oh, well, people have been upset that it's a midnight release, so I'll just go ahead and announce it since it's up." So, I sent an email and I announced that it was up early, but then people got mad because they had set their alarm clocks for midnight, and they were like, "Why did you release it early? You said it was midnight." So, I learned so much.

Gin Stephens: Well, and also, some things are out of our control because when you're releasing something new, it sometimes just happens. You just don't know how long it's going to take.

Melanie Avalon: The site was going to go up at midnight, but then it went up early. I was trying to make people happy because I received feedback.

Gin Stephens: I know. We try so hard.

Melanie Avalon: I just want to make everybody happy. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Impossible. I've learned impossible through moving the community, we had the first one, the DDD social network, and the platform ended up being unacceptable. So, instead of using the whole--, we spent tens of thousands of dollars on that platform. So, for it to be unacceptable, we just abandoned it because that was not okay for the community. So, we lost money on that part of it, but anyway, we moved everybody. But no matter how hard we tried to move everybody in a way that made them all happy, there were people mad at me. And I'm like, "I just want you to know, I'm doing the best I can." Because the alternative would have been just to stay there and suffer through it being awful till the year was up but we didn't want to do that. So, no solution was perfect. That's what I'm trying to say with that story. No solution is perfect, you're just do the best you can, and if people get mad, and can't roll with it, there's nothing you can do.

Melanie Avalon: The reason people were so eager was, I was pitching that it would probably sell out which I-- Oh, it was such a moment because I just really had no idea like would it sell out, but I thought it might, but I just didn't know how it was going to go, and it went so well. [giggles] So, it sold out-- the first run, sold out in less than eight hours. So, there was a big spike at around midnight, and then there was a big spike in the morning, but that's what I'm telling people.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, so the people, when I went early, it's not like people missed it.

Melanie Avalon: But the first 300 bottles were super discounted. So, I think, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, those super fans who were checking early, [laughs] they got lucky. That's what I think. Sorry, if the super fans just-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, there was about two hours where it said it was out of stock on the website, and that's when they were-- at MD Logic, they were trying to figure out if they could place another order. They were trying to forget the logistics of the second run. So, there was like a two-hour period where people were checking and thought that it was sold out and that they had missed it. So, I had to do like damage control, and then two hours later it was available for the second run to preorder. I realized, like, in my messaging, I said, "You can now preorder the second run, which would ship in December," but people thought that they couldn't order until December. I've just learned a lot about clarity. But in any case, the takeaway is that, it went so well, and you can order it now. You can preorder it. The people who have ordered, although, when this comes out, this will be a little bit older news, but people who ordered that first run, by the time this comes out there's should have shipped. They probably will have received it. And then people who are ordering from the current run assuming, it's not sold out. That is probably shipping around mid-December. So, I think when this, because this episode comes out mid-December, right?

Gin Stephens: Yep, December 13th.

Melanie Avalon: So, it should be shipping around that time. People listening right now, their orders should be shipping if they had already ordered at the second run. I'm just so grateful like I've just been walking around in the state of happiness, and gratitude, and excitement for a few reasons, oh, my God, I will start crying. Okay. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I get it. Look, when I was reading a section of Clean(ish) out loud where I talked about Cal, and his wife Kate, I started crying while I was reading the audiobook. I'm like, "I've got to read that again because now I'm crying." [laughs] We get emotional about stuff. I get it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm just so grateful because this is something I've been wanting to do for so long, and the guy I work with, Scott at the company, we just really, really are on the same page, and understand each other, and it's just like the most beautiful power team. I'm so happy about how the product turned out, the serrapeptase. I get no GI distress with it, which is something that a lot of people experience. I've been noticing so many benefits from it. It's just really, really incredible, and amazing, and I'm so excited that everybody ordered, and that it sold out so fast, because I was so nervous about-- I really wanted to like, I guess, "perform” because I was working with this company, and I really wanted them to see that my audience really was interested.

Gin Stephens: Well, because imagine if you had released it, and put it out, and you sold like five bottles.

Melanie Avalon: My brother texted the next morning and was like, "How did it go?" I was like, "We sold out in less than eight hours." Then my mom was like, "Oh, good." She was like, "I was super worried that nobody was going to buy it." I was like, "Mom?" [laughs] She said, she said-- she said when my brother texted that she was like, "Oh, no. Don't ask that." But now I'm just really thrilled because so that serrapeptase now should be available ongoing. You shouldn't have to worry about it going out of stock, because hopefully we'll be on top of it. Now, we're developing my second one. I know probably the next five ones that I want to do because now, all the supplements I'm currently taking I want to make my own version because then I can really feel good about all of it, and then, I can have something I can really recommend to people. So, I'm really excited. So, the second one, I'm not going to say what it is, but I will say, it's something that we talked about a lot on this podcast, and people asked me for my recommended brand a lot.

Gin Stephens: All right, does it start with M?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Okay, well then, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I'll tell you off air.

Gin Stephens: So, yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, that was a long story, but I'm just so excited and listeners I would love, love, love, love to hear your experience with my brand specifically. And so, you can get it at avalonx.us. Some people have received their bottles and they're posting pictures of themselves with the bottles in the group and it makes me so happy.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's how I feel when someone's holding Clean(ish). Like someone that's gotten the early reader copies, one of my moderators, or it just makes me really excited to see.

Melanie Avalon: It's exciting to see, it's like your dreams manifested in a physical form.

Gin Stephens: It's right because it comes out of your head, and then you make it happen, and then, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The bottle like holding it like it's everything I could want. The way it looks, the actual product, I'm very excited.

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited. Well, job well done.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. You, too.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

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Melanie Avalon: Long intro. Shall we jump into some questions?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, the first question actually relates to what we were just talking about and I thought it would might be something good to clarify, especially, after telling you guys my whole story about my supplement launch. So, this comes from Bianca and the subject is: "What supplements to take! And Bianca says, "Hi. I always love hearing the information you ladies have to share. Sometimes I hear about new health trends, but I never jump on it until you guys have done your research and share it on the show. So, thank you for being a reliable source of information that I can trust to objectively evaluate all the new health packs. So, my question is this. What supplements do I need to take if I am generally healthy? I know, Melanie, you are obsessed with so many things, lol. But what are the supplements that I absolutely need to take? Do you ever suggest a multivitamin? I am 45 years old and I have to lose 30 to 40 pounds. I do take meds for an underactive thyroid. I could always use more energy or a mood booster, especially, once a month when I get my period. I don't get reflux or constipated." I just want to say, "I'm very jealous of you, Bianca."

She says, "I don't get brain fog or anxious. My knees hurt a little from running but it seems like normal aging. I currently take ginkgo biloba, fish oil, and vitamin C. After binge hearing your shows, I suddenly feel the need to drink apple cider vinegar, chlorophyll, magnesium shots, serrapeptase?" And then she says, "(silkworm stuff and CBD oil)." Should I-- "For someone like me that has no specific complaints or ailments, would we need to supplement anything to our diet?" Gin, what do you take on a regular basis? Since you and I are closer in age perhaps you could share with me what you'd like to take. I also want to say, how much I appreciate the two different experiences.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, I'm glad to answer this. But first I want to say one thing. I have realized that supplements are incredibly personal. What I take might not be right for you. Here's an example of that. One of my friends was taking some supplements that she said that changed her life. It's actually my friend, Sheri that cohosts Life Lessons with me. I'm like, "Oh, well I need to take that supplement that changed your life." So, I started taking it. I can't remember what it was. This is a couple of years ago maybe and I started getting this crazy anxiety and weirdness, and I'm like, "Could this be the supplements, I looked it up?" Yes. [laughs] She takes it. She has like a different genetic profile than me and it works for someone with her, whatever genetic, something or other that I don't have. So, I don't need that supplement. If you don't need it and you take it, it can lead anxiety. So, there are very few supplements that I would consider to be universal. Like serrapeptase for example, I took it for a while for a targeted reason. I had fibroids, I do think that it helped. I do think it has broad benefits for a lot of people, but I'm very keep it simple when it comes to supplements.

I take magnesium every single day and I have for years. It helps me to sleep. I really notice a difference if I forget it. I did change my brand over the years. Right now, I'm doing BiOptimizers, and I think the brand I used to take changed their formulation because it stopped being effective for me. I think I wasn't absorbing it, whatever. So, it's really important to find a brand or something that works really well for you. So, I take that. As far as multivitamins go, there's a brand called Ritual that sponsors IF Stories and I do take that one, ritual.com/ifstories. It's really minimalist and clean. So, as far as like vitamins go, they really are transparent with their ingredients. As far as other supplements like as needed basis, like I had a little touch of a flu a few weeks ago. So, I supplemented with things that are known to boost the immune system, zinc, quercetin, C and D. But I just did that for that targeted period of time where I needed a little more immune system support, I felt. So, that's really it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, we are on very similar pages, and I think it's funny, because I think people might assume that I am about all the supplements all the time, and I'm really not. I'm actually pretty minimalist myself with supplements. Everything that you said, Gin about us being unique, and I'm all about the actually the minimal effective dose, because I went through a period where I was taking all the supplements and I got really overwhelmed with that. It's really hard to know what's doing what. So, I'm all about being very specific. There's a word being very, just puts the word.

Gin Stephens: Intentional?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, intentional with what you're taking. So, the serrapeptase for example, I think, it has just such broad ranging benefits kind of like Gin mentioned that I think, most people can benefit from it in some capacity. So, it's one of the reasons I wanted to make it for my first one is, it is one of the only supplements that I actually have been taking consistently every day for years.

Gin Stephens: And honestly, one reason I stopped was because I got spooked about things on Amazon, and not sure what brand to buy, and I was like, "Well, never mind." [laughs] I might would take a Melanie Avalon brand version.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. After developing it now, people were asking in the meantime until yours is available, which one should I order and I was like, "Honestly, I can't recommend any of them now."

Gin Stephens: Once you understand, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, that's an example of one that I think most people can probably benefit from it in some capacity. Beyond that, so, Gin mentioned vitamin D, that's one where I think people really should be getting their blood levels tested for vitamin D, because I think, it's super important for so many things, and for immunity, and a lot of people are low.

Gin Stephens: But you can't know unless you get it tested and that really helps you dial in what you need.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I love InsideTracker because they always test vitamin D, but your conventional doctor can run it as well. But you probably have to ask because most doctors aren't just randomly testing it. I think when it comes to things like digestive enzymes and HCl, that would be case by case basis of, do you have digestive issues and do those help you? They helped me so much but if you don't have digestive issues, if you're not experiencing that, I wouldn't worry about it and it sounds like Bianca, she doesn't experience digestive-- Well she talks about not getting reflux or constipated.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't take any kind of digestive support stuff, zero.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm jealous. It's a gamechanger for me taking the digestive support. Then, so, vitamin C, I actually don't recommend that, especially, if you're taking it while fasted. I don't recommend it as like a daily supplement while fasted.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. That's also important. Supplements, not all supplements are great during the fast but some are.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think there are studies on this taking vitamin C can actually be counterproductive for your body's endogenous production of antioxidants. So, I don't really recommend taking vitamin C is like a thing. But if you get sick for example like Gin said that might be a case where you'd want to high dose vitamin C. Fish oil, I'm perpetually on the fence about. I go back and forth. I'll listen to one person being like never take fish oil and then I'll listen to Rhonda Patrick doing an episode, I'm like, "Oh, everybody should be taking fish oil." But I know one thing. I think, most of them are often rancid.

Gin Stephens: Right. Quality is so-- The problem with supplements, that's why I'm so skeptical of like, I have a section in Clean(ish) where I talk about, like she said, she takes ginkgo biloba, and I have a whole section on Clean(ish) where I talk about a study they did where it like, wasn't even in there. I mean, it was crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's crazy. Actually, speaking of, because I've been getting questions about what testing we do. So, for my serrapeptase for example, it's tested for four different things, pre and post production. So, when they're creating the supplement they test it for toxins, for purity, for active ingredient, for-- It's on the website. I can put a link to in the show notes. But basically, that it is what it says it is that it is effective, and then they do a separate test just on the serrapeptase because they have to do an enzyme test to make sure the enzyme is active, and then they do a batch test, which is where with a finished product, they randomly pull jars and tests that it's still everything that it says it is.

Gin Stephens: Like quality control-- random quality control stuff, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: So, I think that is so important and minor tested for heavy metals and mold which is so, so huge to me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you don't want to be putting that in. [laughs] We want to be taken out the bad stuff not putting more bad in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I just think this is all so, so important. The fish oil for example, I shudder thinking about it now, like we often order that off of Amazon, and Amazon, especially, during the summer are really, really hot warehouses. I just would not order fish oil off of Amazon. It is probably been sitting, especially, in the hot months.

Gin Stephens: Well, then you have to look at, that's not the only place but the warehouse or a truck. I mean, it's hard to know about anything. Honestly, who knows how it got to the store. So, when you really start thinking about supplements, you start going down the rabbit hole of-- That's why I take so few.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. And even serrapeptase is temperature sensitive. So, that's another case where you'd want to be buying direct from somewhere where it's been climate controlled. So, if I ever do a fish oil in the future, I think, it would need to be a little bit down the line because I think it's going to be super expensive. Because I want to do all the criteria to keep it cold shipping and all of that. That's probably going to be like down the line if I do a fish oil. But I'm just looking at the other things she said. Interesting that from the show, she thinks she should drink apple cider vinegar. I guess we talked about taking it like before eating maybe. Chlorophyll, I do take chlorophyll. It's good for iron levels, but I take that with my food. Magnesium, Gin said, she benefits from, CBD is something that has helped me so much, but I realize that people respond differently to CBD.

Gin Stephens: They really do. Yeah, one of my family members responds great to it like amazing. It helps with mood and for me though, it made me-- I took it for a while because it feels [unintelligible [00:32:55] and I took it and I tried to find my right dose but basically, I never found a dose that made me feel like better, different like it was doing anything. Does that make sense? So, I stopped taking it. But I believe in it because I've seen it make a difference. So, I'm not like anti-CBD. I think it is powerful and amazing. But you need to meet with the people and they will talk you through it. If there's a right dose for you, they'll help you find it. But the answer might be, you don't need that.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. For me, it's a game changer. Like a game changer. It makes me sad because they run whitelisted ads through my Facebook account. So, basically like you might be on Facebook, and you'll see a sponsored ad for Feals from my account. I mean, CBD is such a touchy topic. So, a lot of comments are very abrasive and intense and I'm like, "I shouldn't be like I'm not making this up. Like this supplement changes my life."

Gin Stephens: No, I've really seen it make an amazing difference in other people. I've seen it firsthand with my eyes in my house. But for me, the magnesium helps me sleep, and I don't have anything that I need help with that. I don't know. Whatever it does in your brain, my brain is okay with. I've got other things in my brain that might need you know like the magnesium, but we're also different. I really think it's the thing that, like now, I pretty much sleep through the night all the time. I think it took a while of finding my dose and doing it consistently, but I take it every single night, and I think it has modulated my entire cannabinoid system.

Gin Stephens: That's good. You know what changed mine is changing my magnesium. Honestly, I am sleeping great, and I am even drinking a little bit more alcohol, and it's making a huge difference. It's not making me wake up. After if I have like a glass of wine, I don't instantly wake up not able to sleep like I had been for so long. It could, maybe, my body is calmed down after going through menopause, that could be it, because some people told me they had trouble with one. While they were going through menopause then it got better, but I really think it's changing my magnesium that made a difference. But it really, once you find what works for your body, huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: We do have a discount for Feals which is I think one of our best offers and it's feals.com/ifpodcast. It changes around, but it's usually 40% to 50% off somewhere in there.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: But like Gin said, like I've said, it's really just a matter of individuality. Like another one I take every single day is berberine. I've seen wearing a CGM that that really does really nice things for my blood sugar levels. It actually really helps my digestive issues as well, which I didn't anticipate. But that's something that I just really like in my proverbial and real cabinet. That'd be something where I think if you've done a CGM, or you've taken blood tests, and you've seen high blood sugar levels, that might be something to play with. But yeah, we could say a lot more about supplements. But something else I will suggest is not trying multiple supplements at one time, because then like new ones--

Gin Stephens: Don't change everything up. Think of it as a one at a time tweaking kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Oh, another one I think a lot of people can benefit from in general is NR and NMN, which are the NAD precursors. But that's another one that I really want to do one, but it's also going to need to be down the line because that is another supplement that needs to be cold, and it's light sensitive, and they just don't really talk about that. So, that's something that I would want to-- cold ship for example. I've so many plans. But yeah, hopefully, that was helpful.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think it was. There's just so much confusion about supplements. And it's because again, we're all different. So, when my friend said, "Take this one, it's--" or she said, "I take this one." She didn't tell me to take it. She said, "I take this, it's changed my life." I'm like, "Well, I'm going to change my life, and it made me worse and bad and awful." Then I was like, "Well, I've never going to just take something because someone said they take it again."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Another one I do think a lot of people might benefit from is depending on what their issues are as progesterone. I'll be airing an episode, I think, in January with Dr. Michael Platt, and he pretty much thinks that progesterone can fix all ailments for everybody all the time, which I don't know if it's that intense, but I personally have been taking it, and it's radically helped my sister, got rid of her PMDD. I can put a link in the show notes. I have a discount code for them.

Gin Stephens: That's another one, I would recommend having working with a doctor who's skilled in that and testing your levels. Dr. Anna Cabeca always says, "Test, don't guess" [laughs] which I like. Just because you don't know what you need.

Melanie Avalon: He makes the argument that with progesterone, there's not really a issue with--

Gin Stephens: Taking too much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that like, basically, if you have any sort of issue that might be related which really, he thinks is almost everything. You can start taking it and you'll see pretty fast if it's helping.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, that's interesting. So, he has his own kind of it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and it's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well, send me that info. I might look at that.

Melanie Avalon: I bumped up his episode earlier than it should have been released just because I want to tell everybody about it. And we just got the discount code. So, I will put a link in the show notes, too. I think it's like a 10% off code. Yeah, that's the one. I said this multiple times, but my sister has had PMDD for 10 years, and they got rid of it in a week.

Gin Stephens: All right, shall we move on to our next question from Paula?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and she has a few different questions.

Gin Stephens: She does. Paula says, "Hello, again. Thank you" and more random questions. You want just take them one at a time?

Melanie Avalon: Sure.

Gin Stephens: She says, "Gin and Melanie, thank you for answering my questions on the podcast. You're my Monday workout buddies and I am a fan." I love that. People will often tell me they love to walk and listen to the podcast or my other podcast. I'm sure people tell you that, too. I just I love it. It's like we're regular and we're in their head.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Few DM me on Instagram or few reach out to me on Facebook groups, I really try to engage with everybody who reaches out to me. It's getting hard. But I do try to and people often say, they feel like they know me and I know that feeling because I listened to podcasts and I feel like I know the people, although, now, I often do know them.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's funny. Well, here's the thing is that we are just really ourselves. I mean, I don't know how to be any other way. Love me or hate me, this is who I am.

Melanie Avalon: And I've been thinking about that because so, my Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, it's me but it's like interview Melanie. It's like Melanie having an intense conversation with an expert, but this is just like me.

Gin Stephens: This is us. And you know what? On Intermittent Fasting Stories, I'm able to really be myself, too. Just because it's like me having coffee with a friend is how it feels. I kind of like this one and on Life Lessons. So, anyone who listens to all my podcasts, it's exactly how I am. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I can attest to that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. All right, so, anyways, she says, "A few more random questions. Number one, I exercise fasted like a lot of people in the IF community, has anyone ever researched if exercising fasted would be equal to an extra hour or two of fasting. For example, I close my window at 9 PM, exercise from 6 AM to 7:30 AM, and only open my window at 3:30 PM. Would that mean that I fasted more than 18 and a half hours?" No. [laughs] Sorry, I had to just answer that. Now, Melanie's going to give a longer answer.

Melanie Avalon: I knew you were going to say, no.

Gin Stephens: You knew I was going to say no? Well, maybe because you didn't fast more.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "Wait for it." [laughs]

Gin Stephens: You fasted for 18 and a half. That's how much you fasted. But it's a lot more subtle than just-- Here's what happens when you fast 18 and a half hours every single day, all things being equaled. That's not the case. So, 18 and a half might not be equal to 18 and a half.

Melanie Avalon: Right. So, no, you did not fast more than 18 and a half hours. But I think the question that she's getting at which is actually a very good question. It's something definitely worth thinking about. The processes that happen, or the actions that transpire, or things that happen when you're fasting can also be instigated, or upregulated, or increased, enhanced by exercise. So, there would be fat burning, there would be autophagy. So, it's a little bit of a different question but basically, I do think, if you do exercise while fasted, the benefits that you were trying to achieve from fasting, you might get those same benefits or you might get more of those benefits even, but having fasted less.

Gin Stephens: Right. Like, think of the exponential curve. We all have seen a graph. You know, think of a graph with a straight line going just up straight. That's not what I'm talking about. An exponential curve is when it starts off sloping gently and then the slope gets higher, I think, by adding exercise, it would make that slope go up higher, like for the things that are happening in your body. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Especially, I just mentioned them but depending on the exercise you're doing, that it might deplete your glycogen stores faster or it might burn more fat, and then the autophagy thing I think is huge, because there's a lot of studies on exercise increasing autophagy, and it does. It's one of the best ways to do it. So, yeah. You might get the benefits that you're trying to get potentially more so and potentially with less fasting.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right. I'm just going to say the exact same thing, yes. I agree with all of that. All right, number two. "I love wine, but cannot eat any sugar with that or I throw up. Actually, any mix of alcohol and sugar thoughts." Well, I've got a thought there. Don't do that. [laughs] Sorry. I just can't control myself today. I'm feeling super punchy.

Melanie Avalon: I'm wondering like, "Does she just drink wine and then throws up?"

Gin Stephens: Well, she said, if she has wine with sugar, it makes her throw up.

Melanie Avalon: Cannot eat any sugar with it. Okay.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Did I read it weird?

Melanie Avalon: No, no, I'm just thinking about-- because she says, a mix of alcohol and sugar, I've thinking like, "Oh, is it like cocktails that she throws up?" But then she says like, eat.

Gin Stephens: Well, anything like, I think cocktails or having alcohol with sugar, either.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. It could be something about your liver health and trying to process all the stuff. I don't know. I would just say what Gin said, don't do that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Honestly, that's just your body saying, "I don't like this." So, you just going to have to stick to like a Dry Farm Wine that it that has low sugar itself, and don't eat sugar with it, and don't have sugary cocktails. Because I wouldn't want to throw up. So, I wouldn't do that. I don't think there's any way to fix it. Here's the thing you can do to stop that. You just can't do it.

Melanie Avalon: Like I'm wondering if she gets nauseous. Is it like at the end of the night type thing or is it like she has it and then gets nauseous?

Gin Stephens: That's your body sending you a powerful signal not to do that.

Melanie Avalon: But that is one reason like Gin mentioned that, we love Dry Farm Wines because they actually-- I love, love, love. They put on the back of the bottle, the sugar content, which is so cool.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just ordered Chad's Christmas present. We had paused our subscription for a while because I was barely drinking. [laughs] So, I just got him a year's subscription to Dry Farm Wines. He likes the red and I just drink a tiny bit of red like a Melanie dose of red and I'm okay, but that's what I got him.

Melanie Avalon: The old Melanie dose?

Gin Stephens: The old Melanie dose.

Melanie Avalon: Gin is referring to when I was having a sip of wine every night.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, okay, I have more than that. But when he has one but it's still a very small amount of glass. We have tiny little wine glasses and they put a little bit in there and that's enough.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: Nothing like I'm not getting a buzz or anything, but he likes to have red wine with dinner here and there. So, that's his Christmas present.

Melanie Avalon: I'm literally contemplating. I'm going to a wedding on Friday. I'm like, "Can I bring a bottle of Dry Farm Wines?"

Gin Stephens: For yourself?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't. Not to a wedding. I would not.

Melanie Avalon: I could like slip it to the bartender be like, "Can you just pour mine from this one?"

Gin Stephens: No, I would not do that. Thumbs down on that idea. Just don't drink at all if you are worried. Look, the reason I say that is because when I was drinking less, especially, the past year, I realized I have just as much fun with zero alcohol like honestly.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm definitely going to be drinking.

Gin Stephens: Do not bring your own wine to a wedding.

Melanie Avalon: I already like joked about it with the bride. She's like, "Are you going to bring Dry Farm Wines?" I'm like, "Maybe."

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, if she's like, that's cool. I guess, it depends on your comfort level with the guests, the other guests.

Melanie Avalon: I'll probably just drink whatever they have. Our link for Dry Farm Wines is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast, gets you a bottle for a penny.

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Melanie Avalon: All right, number three.

Gin Stephens: Yes. "I'm having surgery elective cosmetic, any supplements that would speed up my recovery."

Melanie Avalon: So, when I had surgery, I thought I was dying and I was just wrecked. It was when I had my nose surgery. It could have been a coincidence. But I started high, high, high dosing NR and NMN, and I started feeling better the next day.

Gin Stephens: I don't even know what that is.

Melanie Avalon: Nicotinamide riboside, probably saying that wrong, NR and nicotinamide mononucleotide, NMN.

Gin Stephens: Can I tell you something about that real quick?

Melanie Avalon: Uh-huh.

Gin Stephens: When I was reading Clean(ish), there are so many words in there that I had no idea how to say like when I'm talking about chemicals, and I had to say them. So, every time the director would look them up, and then I would try to say it, and then, she's like, "That was not right," and I would try again as like, "This is too hard, who wrote this." "Oh, yeah, me."

Melanie Avalon: I read especially with that subject. You probably had a lot of--

Gin Stephens: Well, I did because chemicals, and stuff, and so, anyone who's listening to Clean(ish), if I sound really stupid saying something wrong, it's because there's a lot of words, a lot of words. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: The one I can never remember is phthalates.

Gin Stephens: Phthalates, I got that one.

Melanie Avalon: Because it's like ph-tha-thalates.

Gin Stephens: I can't say athe-roscle-rosis. Atherosclerosis like my tongue won't do it.

Melanie Avalon: I cannot say that word.

Gin Stephens: I can't say it. She'll say it. I can't. My tongue doesn't do that. They need to change that word.

Melanie Avalon: They do. No, I remember because when I was recording some audiobook, they had that in a lot, that word.

Gin Stephens: My tongue will-- athero-- I can't do it. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can't either. Yeah, same page. So, NR and NMN are precursors to NAD which is it regulates your body's metabolism of energy. So, it's super important for turning food into energy for your cells producing energy. It's just really, really important. And NAD levels decline as we age, so, supplementing NR and NMN can boost your NAD levels. I take it currently every day like a smaller dose. But if I were doing something like surgery, I would just like high dose it. The two brands I currently take, I take Elysium and Basis, NR and I take Quicksilver Scientific, NMN. In the future, I want to make my own version.

Yeah, I would take that during the whole process, because you could take that. I mean, ask your doctor, but you should be able to take that before, during, and after, afterwards serrapeptase might be something to take because it enhances wound healing, lots of studies on that. Lots and lots of studies on that. So, I wouldn't take it before because they're probably telling you not to take blood thinners, things like that and serrapeptase can have a thinning effect on the blood. So, you won't want to be taking it before but afterwards could be really good thing. Those are the two things that come to mind for surgery specifically. And then just in general, any supplements that you're taking to support your personal health state kind of like we talked about before. Any thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm going to talk about fasting. I know that's not what she asked. But sometimes people will have surgery and they'll ask about, "When should I start fasting again?" I would just say, "It's always great to talk to your surgical team about that and get their advice." But really, you want to listen to your body. You might need to eat more than you think you will. As part of the healing process, your body may like say, you know, be craving protein. If you're hungry for protein and craving it, eat it. Really listen to your body as you're recovering. Don't try to be like, "Well, I'm going to just fast for 20 hours." Maybe that's the wrong thing for your body. Maybe, it's the right thing. Animals in the wild know when to eat and when not to eat, and they listen to their bodies. So, really connect with your body, and see how you feel, and listen to those cues. Like if my body said eat potatoes, I would eat potatoes. If it said eat meat, eat meat. I would just do what it said to do.

Melanie Avalon: Depending on surgery and everything like protein will likely be important, especially, depending on what you're getting.

Gin Stephens: That's right. You need it. Here's something interesting. When I had that flu like illness a couple of weeks ago, the whole time that I wasn't feeling well and had a fever, I could not eat meat like I didn't want it. My body was like, "Nope." I would try to, "No, couldn't eat meat." Then as soon as I was better, I was craving meat like a crazy person. I just ate so much meat. [laughs] It was just weird. My body was like, "No meat." Now, I just want meat.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, our bodies are very intuitive that way.

Gin Stephens: Yep. All right, question four related to surgery. "Will have antibiotics for the first time in my life for that. My mom was very against it. So, never took in my entire life. What to take with it to minimize gut damage? Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're an amazing duo." You know, I haven't had any antibiotics since, I don't know, 2014 or 2015. I used to take them all the time because I was always having an infection when I was a teacher before fasting. But now, I don't have them. I don't need them. Anyway, she's never had an antibiotic. That's amazing. A-mazing.

Melanie Avalon: Looking back in high school, I was on antibiotics for so long for acne. It's upsetting, but live and learn. So, this is a really good question and interestingly, I'm going to say something that might surprise people. They've actually done studies on antibiotics and recolonizing of the gut post-antibiotics, and they've actually found that supplementing probiotics directly after antibiotics can potentially slow down the body's return to its pre-antibiotic state. Because I think a lot of people will think they should take antibiotics and then immediately dose probiotics. I actually don't suggest that. I actually suggest taking antibiotics, fermented foods are a completely different case. I would focus on fermented foods instead.

Gin Stephens: Like natural versions of probiotic foods.

Melanie Avalon: I can put a link in the show notes to the study that talks about this, but I would probably suggest doing the antibiotics, framing it as in the positive because if you have to take it, no sense having a negative perspective of it and actually, can have a huge effect on things. It's something called the no SIBO effect, which is basically, if you anticipate bad things happening from whatever you're taking, it can actually make bad things happening. So, I would reframe it as, maybe this is like knocking out some bad guys. When you're done with it, I wouldn't do the probiotics right away. I would return to normal diet or standard diet throughout this, bring in natural fermented foods, and then a few weeks later, if you want to start on a different probiotic, that could be something to try. Its interesting people have asked me like, "Will I create a probiotic?" I just think there are a lot of probiotics that help people so much like this episode, for example, is sponsored by BiOptimizers. They make their magnesium.

Gin Stephens: Oh, it is, isn't it? I didn't even notice that and me talking about my magnesium that I take that's theirs. [laughs] That was-- See, we really like the products that we have on the show. We use them. That's why we have them up on the show. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. So, they make an amazing probiotic P3-OM. So, that might be something to try a few weeks after going off the antibiotics. But I do think probiotics are another thing where it's just so individual. Like some people benefit, some people don't, and it's really just finding what works for you. So, any thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was everything. And then, oh, that was it. We got them all.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so, to end things, we have a question from Brittany. The subject is: "COFFEE WITH LOTS OF EASE."

Gin Stephens: Coffee.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Yes. She says, "Hello, I just started listening to your podcast. So, I'm at the very beginning and I just listened to the coffee Episode 5." I forgot. We did that.

Gin Stephens: I know. We were different then, we didn't know what we were doing yet.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we were trying to figure out like, what format and where we going to do topic episodes, and then we realized that the listener Q&As is just the way to go. She says, "I'm wondering about nut milks? Are they okay to add to my coffee while I'm transitioning or if I wait and break my fast with coffee? Thanks in advance."

Gin Stephens: I have super bad news, Brittany, but I think you already knew what I was going to say. No, do not add them to your coffee. There's no freebie kind of milk of any kind that you can add to coffee that is not food for the body. Keep the nut milks in your eating window. I would recommend if you're new to intermittent fasting, really, I would Fast. Feast. Repeat. Because I really put everything in there that you're going to need to know and the why. Like, "Why can't I have--, why should I not do that?" It's all in Fast. Feast. Repeat again. Like I talked about with Clean(ish), I'm not just trying to sell you a book, but I spent a lot of time on that book as a resource because I wanted people to have something. So, instead of doing a Google search, where you're going to get crazy advice from people everything from yes to no to you know, "I only drink that milk--." There're all sorts of-- everything is conflicting. I put my very best advice in there based on the science and also what people are having success with, people in my communities.

Oh, well, I'll tell you something funny, Melanie. Someone just yesterday in the DDD community, the private community that I have, somebody asked a question about butter in coffee, and we were talking about that, and then someone said as a comment, they're like, "You know, Gin, when I read Fast. Feast. Repeat, there were all those personal stories that you included from people about the clean fast and why." I was like, "That's a little bit of overkill." But as I kept reading, I was like, "Oh, no, this is actually [laughs] the best part." Because it's not just me telling you, it's people who are like, "Well, I thought you could have butter in your coffee because I heard that you could, so I did it, and fasting was hard, and then I saw what Gin said, and then, I stopped and oh, my gosh, it's better. It makes such a difference." So, that's why, I really would encourage you to take that clean fast challenge even if you think, "Well, I've always had butter in my coffee or I've always had nut milk in my coffee and it works for me,"

I would have sworn to you that stevia works for me until I read The Obesity Code and realized the connection between insulin, and fat burning, and blood glucose levels because if your insulin goes up, your blood sugar goes down, that makes you hungrier, that sort of thing. Once I understood it, the science behind it, I took it out, made such a difference. I would have sworn to you that it "worked" for me till I removed it, and then realized it wasn't working for me. I didn't realize until I stopped that it wasn't. You don't know how good you can feel until you really feel good. So, that's why I would encourage anybody to do the clean fast. Black coffee, plain tea, don't use all the sweet herbal flavor or whatever in even things that are Swedish like chamomile, avoid those. Plain water, plain sparkling water, don't add anything else. Fast, clean, see what happens. Give yourself at least a month. Maybe six weeks of the clean fast, and then you know try that nut milk, and you will absolutely be a believer. You'll be like, "Oh yeah, that doesn't work for me." You're going to feel different. Then you will never doubt it again. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I knew you would have the perfect answer to that.

Gin Stephens: I used to put cinnamon in my coffee back in those days, too. Cinnamon and stevia as part of my fast. So, one day just-- then I realized, "Okay, cinnamon is our body foresees that as being a tasty treat." So, I was like one day, it's been since 2019 because it was in this house where we moved in 2019. I remember, I was about to open my window and not too long, and I'm like, "You know, I'm just going to test cinnamon now. Just I want to see. I just want to see what happens." It made me so starving, and shaky, and I was like, "All right, there you go." And luckily, I was about to have my window, so I just did, but it wasn't like psychological. I was like, "Maybe, this will be fine." It wasn't fine.

Melanie Avalon: I knew you'd have the perfect answer to that. I have two tangential thoughts.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I never realized how much Swedish sounds like sweetish.

Gin Stephens: Oh, like sweet-ish.

Melanie Avalon: Sweetish, like the same word. Two, on the nut milk front, guess who I'm interviewing tomorrow?

Gin Stephens: Well, I have no idea.

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Neal Barnard.

Gin Stephens: Does he love nut milk? He's like vegan, right?

Melanie Avalon: He's like the vegan. The vegan of vegans. I'm nervous. I'm actually nervous. I don't get nervous much anymore. I'm very nervous.

Gin Stephens: Here's my advice. If someone is awful or rude, just don't air their episode. So, there's nothing that can go wrong.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't think he'll be awful or rude.

Gin Stephens: I wasn't saying him. I didn't think he would. But my point is don't be nervous because if someone is awful, not him, but just anybody in general. You got nothing to be nervous about. I get it though, I get it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by the whole veganismness. I feel like I have a lot of knowledge about it but I wish I had more if that makes sense, but I have a lot of questions for him.

Gin Stephens: Well, he is very much like, "This is the way everyone should be."

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I think that's one of that part of the reason that I'm--

Gin Stephens: That you're nervous? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I get it. I totally get that because obviously, neither of us believe that is the way everyone should be. And I'm not saying no one should be [laughs] either. Between everyone and no one is where the reality is.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe, this is another reason that I'm nervous. I haven't listened to any debates with him between-- Mostly when I see him, it's him-- Listeners, he's in all the documentaries. So, like any of them. Like What the Health like all of them. He's there. So, it's normally like, he's normally in an environment where it's just him putting forth his position. So, I don't know how he acts. I'm not going to be debating him, but I have a lot of questions. So, I don't know how that dialogue is going to go. So, we shall see.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon: I have learned a lot though about soy.

Gin Stephens: So, he's a big fan of it.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. That's something that really goes back to, I think, now, the gut microbiome. It depends if you have gut bacteria that produces compound called Equol. I think around 90% of western population doesn't have that gut bacteria. So, it's like, I think that's a huge factor and if you get health benefits from soy or not.

Gin Stephens: I also think there's a huge genetic component to soy and the populations that traditionally had that as part of their diet are going to be more adapted to it. I am not one of those populations. I'm European, the British Isles over there, and a little bit of also other Europeans sprinkled in for the most part, and we were not ever there eating soy. My ancestors were not. I like edamame, but tofu can't do it. Can't do it, I've tried, just can't.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'll let you know how it goes.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, I can't wait to hear.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. [giggles] All right. So, for listeners, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there or you can directly email questions@podcast.com. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything we talked about. I think we talked about a lot of stuff that is at ifpodcast.com/episode243. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin's @ginstephens, and I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: I just remembered something. I'm going to talk about next week that is changing my life.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait to hear that and I'm not-- really can't wait to hear.

Melanie Avalon: That's why I thought about it. So, yeah, all right. Well, I will talk to you next week. Happy holidays.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You, too. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Dec 05

Episode 242: Breaking Fast For The Best Digestion, Live Podcasts, Talk Shows, Early Weight Gain, Endurance Sports, Feeling Too Full, Morning Sickness, PMDD, Hormone Regulation, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

INSIDETRACKER: Go To Insidetracker.Com/Melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

Listener Feedback: Andrea - Thank You!

Listener Q&A: Sally - Best Type Meal To Eat When Breaking Fast

Listener Q&A: Paul - You Guys

Listener Q&A: Phoebe - IF & Weight Gain

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Windows, Endurance Sports, Leaning Out

Get 10% Off With Coupon Code MelanieAvalon at Platt Wellness Center!

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Feeling full

Listener Q&A: Carla - Hormones

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 242 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny® Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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I interviewed the founder Gil Blander on my show, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. What is so amazing about InsideTracker is that their blood tests, include the biomarkers that you need to be testing that are key to performance that you don't get from traditional blood tests. These are things like ferritin, vitamin D, GST, which is a liver enzyme that you will rarely ever see on a blood test. My favorite part, they don't just give you the data, they provide you with nutrition and lifestyle tips to take action. They also can track your inner age. Basically, how old you really are based on your blood markers.

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One more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, you can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 242 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Guess what I am holding in my hand.

Gin Stephens: Water?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Because you just said you're going to drink some water before we started recording. So, I just assumed.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I do have water. Guess what type of water the water is?

Gin Stephens: Oh, Lord, I don't know. Some kind of weird wacky water?

Melanie Avalon: Deuterium depleted.

Gin Stephens: I knew it. I knew it was going to be that one. I'm holding a mug of hot water, some [unintelligible [00:06:38].

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man.

Gin Stephens: So, I'm going to guess that you're holding your Serrapeptase?

Melanie Avalon: I am.

Gin Stephens: I knew it.

Melanie Avalon: It's so beautiful.

Gin Stephens: Have you taken any yet?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I have. So, it came yesterday that like the box of my samples. Oh, the samples, that means I can finish the trademark registration. So, last night, I got the bottle and I tried it for the first time, and it was great. No GI issues. That's one thing I was a little bit worried about was GI distress because Serrapeptase doesn't really have side effects. But that is the one thing that is sometimes reported, but it felt amazing. My brain felt so clear after, and I took some today and the same thing. I'm so excited. And then I was chatting with my business partner. And he-- wait, did I tell you this already? He put one--

Gin Stephens: Oh, in the vinegar, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I told you that last time. So, I'm excited.

Gin Stephens: Yay. It's good to see a plan come together.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting to see an idea manifest in its physical form in front of you.

Gin Stephens: It really is. It really, really is to know that you could do this. I was always a big dreamer as a kid, like I had all these ideas and I was like, “I'm going to do this. And I'm going to do that.”

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: I believe it. And you're like, “Wow. Look, we did these things.”

Melanie Avalon: I know, you really can. When listeners get it, the logo, the Avalon X logo. The Avalon is my signature, and then the X is, it's like a DNA, but I designed that, and then they designed. I told them what I wanted the imagery to look like. It just really came together very nicely. So, by the time this episode airs, pretty sure it probably should already be in preorders if it's not sold out. So, if you'd like to preorder the supplement, which really quickly is an enzyme originally created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it breaks down protein buildup, so it can help with inflammation and allergies and brain fog and it can reduce cholesterol, breakdown amyloid plaque, and fibroids, and pain relief, and all these things. The website for it, is avalonx.com, and the email list for all the information on it as well as future supplements, is melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. So that is that.

Gin Stephens: Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's actually releasing as of this recording date this week, most likely. Like a midnight release thing. So, we shall see. Anything else new with you?

Gin Stephens: No. Not really. I stopped to finish recording my Audiobook. So, got that coming up. I'll be glad when it's over. I love all the people who love to listen. But Lord, it's hard. [laughs] It is really hard to read a book. Clean(ish) has a lot of hardness in it. A lot of difficulty.

Melanie Avalon: Hard words.

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm like, “Why did I write that? Why? Why did I write that?” I will be talking to the director and I'm like, “Can I just change this?” She's like, “No, that's a direct quote out of a journal. You cannot.” I'm like, “Okay. But why did they write it like that?” Like, how to say things, it's so hard.

Melanie Avalon: You know what I would be curious to hear?

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: I think Fast. Feast. Repeat. is on Blinkist.

Gin Stephens: What is Blinkist?

Melanie Avalon: It's this, I don't know-- it's a website. I keep hearing about it on [unintelligible [00:10:17]. But it's a website where they put 15-minute summaries of nonfiction books. So, you can like, learn a lot really fast. I think your book is on there.

Gin Stephens: I feel it might be. I think someone might have told me that, that sounds familiar. I don't really know anything about it.

Melanie Avalon: I was contemplating downloading it not to replace researching books for my show, because I always have to read everything. But just as a recap at the end, like a summary of the book.

Gin Stephens: For Fast. Feast. Repeat?

Melanie Avalon: No, just in general for prepping my other--

Gin Stephens: Oh, I see. Okay. I was like, “What? Why do you need to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat.? Whatever. Okay. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Like prepping other books.

Gin Stephens: Well, that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Melanie Avalon: I'd be curious if you listen to the Blinkist, did they put in what you would want to be the 15 minutes?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. See, that's the kind of thing that would drive me crazy. So, I'll probably never listen. I don't want to know. That kind of stuff is so frustrating.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have some feedback. This is from-- Oh, no. We had this discussion recently. This is from, here we go, Andrea, Andréa, A-ndrea, And-rea, one of those. Andrea. She sent this email to me, but I asked her if we could include it because I thought it was a nice email. She said, “Hi, Melanie, I'm really fan crushing emailing you right now. I have not had a good enough question that felt worthy of emailing to the show. But I want to take this opportunity to thank you and Gin for all that you do. I'm a 44-year-old that found intermittent fasting after a long battle with my weight and anemia, that I later learned stemmed from methane based SIBO that developed after years without an appendix and gallbladder. While everyone understands how the gallbladder works. Did you know the appendix produces a probiotic that helps balance the microbiome? It's not so useless. after all.” I'd never heard that. Had you heard that, Gin.

Gin Stephens: I haven't heard that. No, but I'm not surprised that it's not useless, because-- just because we don't understand what something is doing, doesn't mean it isn't doing something important. One of those things that never made sense to me. “Oh, you don't even need it. It's just there.” I'm like, “I doubt that.” [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if there is anything that as a species did become purposeless that we lost that we don't have now.

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, that's something to research. She says, “After resolving my gut issues with high dose herbs, biofilm disruptors, and antifungals, then healthy probiotics and prebiotics. I started intermittent fasting, and I've never felt better. I first started listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast and from there, discovered your podcast,” and she's talking about the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. She says, “Now I am into so many of the hacks, I'm sure my family thinks I'm nuts, lol. But they have no argument when the results so clearly speak for themselves. I appreciate all you do to bring light to sometimes little-known topics and speaking with the experts in an understandable way.” So, those are some great feedback from Andrea. For listeners, SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and it's a gut issue that a lot of people, especially with IBS often struggle with, and it can be difficult to address. So, it's nice to hear that she worked out her gut issues and that intermittent fasting is really helping with that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think so too. It also made me reflect by listening, she's a biohacker now listening to the Biohacking Podcast. I think it's just perfect the way we each are so different. Here we are together on the intermittent fasting podcast, but we each have our different strengths here. But our strengths here have spun off into completely 180 podcasts. I mean, your podcast and my podcast couldn't be more different.

Melanie Avalon: You think so?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, we both interview people, but we're not talking about biohacking on my podcast. It's making intermittent fasting a lifestyle on Intermittent Fasting Stories.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's personal stories.

Gin Stephens: It's personal stories. It's day to day stuff. It's nitty gritty of a life.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Mine is all the random tangent rabbit holes into all the biohacking.

Gin Stephens: I just think that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: We create a lot of good content.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, but it's so different.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But then it comes together here on this show.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, good. Thank you, Andrea.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, thank you.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Sally and the subject is: “Best type meal to eat when breaking fast.” “I'm hearing protein/good fat meal is best when you're breaking your fast. Wonder why I'm being told that, and is there any validity to it? What are your responses knowing that Melanie likes paleo, so that kind of goes hand in hand, but Gin enjoys some carbs, including grains and starchy veg. So, do you really care? You just eat what you want? Or, is it beneficial to do something more intentional? And should the big meal be first within your window? Or, would you recommend maybe eating a handful of nuts as a start? And then maybe an hour later, have your bigger meal while in your window? Thanks.”

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, this is a great question from Sally. Something I'd like to clarify because people often say that to me, people think I don't eat carbs. I might eat more carbs than Gin every night.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I doubt it.

Melanie Avalon: How many carbs do you think you eat?

Gin Stephens: I mean, I don't count things. I just eat.

Melanie Avalon: I eat pounds of fruit every night. So, there's a lot of carbs.

Gin Stephens: Well, I do not eat pounds of anything.

Melanie Avalon: So, I eat pounds of meat, pounds of cucumbers, and pounds of fruit.

Gin Stephens: I just like eat a meal of food. I'm not eating individual ingredients, like separately. Last night, I ate a burger from local farmhouse burger, which is really good high-quality burger. I had grass-fed meat, I had a whole grain burger bun, I had really high-quality French fries. So, that's not my typical meal. I usually cook at home. But last night, I was just craving a burger, and we actually were talking about it. Did I talk about it on the podcast? We're recording two days back-to-back. So, did I mention that I wanted a good burger? I think I did.

Melanie Avalon: You definitely did to me.

Gin Stephens: I can't remember if I said it on the air. Well, anyway, spoiler alert, I had one. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: How was it?

Gin Stephens: It was really good. It hit the spot. My body was craving that beef.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: It wasn't like pounds of anything, but it was a nice meal.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm just trying to see how many carbs, it probably equals out to.

Gin Stephens: Like what you're eating?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I just don't think of food as macros. I just think of food like-- I am sensitive to the idea that my body doesn't clear fat as well. So, I shouldn't load up on the fat. But I'm still going to, like, if I'm having bread and butter, I'm going to put butter on there till it's delicious. Not like a slab just to go crazy, but it's really good. Bread and butter are good together. So, I eat the food that makes me satisfied, and that tastes really good. I add olive oil to my vegetables, so that they roast well. It's part of the cooking process kind of a thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'll have to look it up later, but it's definitely a lot of carbs in the form of fruit. But as for her question, so the answer we always say, it's very individual. You have to find what works for you. I think a lot of the concern about needing to be super specific and careful when you “break” your fast is, in general, likely more applicable when you're breaking a much longer fast. So, like an extended fast, because there's just idea of slowly reintroducing foods.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That is not every day what we're doing. I don't have to be careful at all. There are some people who have digestive upset even with a daily eating window. I mean there are. People have like a supersensitive system, and if they're not opening carefully, they experience dumping. We hear it a lot in the community. I didn't know if you had, but that really is something that happens to a small segment of the people, never happened to me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it doesn't happen to me either. But as far as to break it with, so I think a reason people say, like protein and fat is because that will likely fill you up fast, if you're trying to not overeat or get satiety signals soon. Protein is often the macronutrient that really leads to satiety. There's the whole protein leverage hypothesis, which says that we will eat to get our protein needs. So, we'll keep eating in any given meal or situation until we get our protein needs. So, that might be a reason somebody might want to start with the protein, because they'll fill up faster. But it really is a matter of just what digests for you, what you like.

For me, I would not want to start with something like that because that would really slow down my digestion. I do do a specific ordering to my food, and it's because with that order, that I had found that works for me. I digest it well, none of the food compounds slow down the other compounds because I tend to lean towards digestive issues, so I do have to be careful. I would just experiment and find what makes you feel good.

Gin Stephens: Nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. So, I absolutely would not start with a handful of nuts. That would be the wrong thing for me. I talk about how a lot of things don't bother me. Well, tea makes me queasy on an empty stomach and nuts make me queasy on an empty stomach. I also don't think protein and good fats on their own would feel good to me. That would probably also make me queasy on an empty stomach.

Melanie Avalon: Make you queasy?

Gin Stephens: Yes. My stomach needs starchy carbs.

Melanie Avalon: That's funny, that settles my stomach. If I ever have an upset stomach, if I just eat a big hunk of protein-

Gin Stephens: Oh, God, no.

Melanie Avalon: -that will always settle my stomach.

Gin Stephens: Nope, nope, no, opposite. When I was sick last week and not really hungry, I couldn't even look at me. I didn't want me, I wasn't interested in me. I was like, “Chad, you're in charge of your own dinner. I just can't.” I cannot eat any meat. I did eat eggs. Eggs sounded good. But it wasn't a big piece of meat. Like scrambled eggs, I was eating like egg sandwiches, that sort of thing. So, I was still getting protein that way. But I absolutely did not think I could eat meat. Which is why when I suddenly felt better, I was like, now I need a cheeseburger. Isn’t that interesting?

Melanie Avalon: That's so interesting. If I ever have an upset stomach, or if I'm ever sick, the thing I will crave is just pure animal protein.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and a grilled cheese sandwich. I always crave a grilled cheese sandwich. Grilled cheese sandwich and apparently egg sandwiches.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, we talked about that because I've never had an egg sandwich.

Gin Stephens: So good. Scrambled eggs on bread. The whole moral of the story is, we're all very, very different with what makes you feel great. And you're just going to have to figure it out. The person who is telling you to eat a protein/good fat meal, probably that's what makes them feel the best. So, they're like, “Well, everyone should do that.” But that doesn't make it true.

Melanie Avalon: I did have an experience though, like the different foods, if it has a big effect on you, you can really notice. For example, I, at my birthday dinner this past week, it was amazing. I was having wine and I had fish and mushrooms and everything was delicious, and I was feeling satiated. And then they brought out so many random things that most of them I didn't eat, but they did bring out this dessert plate. They told me what was gluten free and so there was a strawberry gummy bear thing. I was like, “It's my birthday. I'll just eat this.” So, I ate it. It was tiny. And it was so sweet, I ate it, after eating a full meal and then I was starving. It was such a good moment to experience just how much of an effect the foods can have. I went from being like completely full and fine, to starving from a tiny little gummy bear.

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Because it made my blood sugar drop. Reactive hypo, I'm guessing, or just like that craving from the sugar, like switching over to that mode.

Gin Stephens: Today's episode is sponsored by Prep Dish. I want you to think through your day. What are the hectic daily moments you dread? For many of us, it's 5:00 PM when you realize the dinner hour has somehow snuck up on you again and you have no plan. Naturally, this is also the time young kiddos start losing it. Trying to throw together a healthy meal amidst that chaos is just plain hard. Even though my kids are grown, I remember those days well. Often, I would just hit the drive thru, again.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we move on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: So, this is a question from Paul. The subject is: “You guys.” Paul says, “How did you guys get to be so funny? [laughs] I don't think we're that funny.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just realized that my zipper is down, so that's kind of funny. I'm fixing it now, sitting here with my zipper down.

Melanie Avalon: You wear zippers?

Gin Stephens: I'm wearing jeans. I wear jeans all the time.

Melanie Avalon: I don't remember the last time I had a zipper, that was not addressed. He says, “Truth is, you brighten my day with your always upbeat conversation. Will you ever take your show on the road for some live tapings? And, of course, will you start with Boston?” Doubtful.

Gin Stephens: That does sound fun, though, but we first have to meet.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Atlanta is where we'll start.

Melanie Avalon: So, this is just a little fun fact into podcasting. The setup for recording in the same room is drastically different from the setup--

Gin Stephens: That is true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for the setup, like right now, it would be a completely different setup.

Gin Stephens: It's harder. When I was at the beach in August, I had to record two episodes of people live. And they were just not as good. I recorded one with my friend Michelle, she's amazing. I don't regret that we did that. I love that we did that. But sounds are different and trying to share the same microphone.

Melanie Avalon: Did you share microphone?

Gin Stephens: We did. I was just listening-- You sent me a podcast yesterday, I'm not going to say who it was, but I listened to it. And I noticed they had wacky quality of sound.

Melanie Avalon: On both sides?

Gin Stephens: Well, the host, the main guy, the one whose podcast it was. There was a beginning part and that part was really professional sound quality. And then the part where he was interviewing his guest, it sounded like he was like in his car or something, I don't know. Or maybe on his phone, it sounded like maybe he was on his phone, but I just thought that was interesting. So, I don't get real stressed out. The point of my story is, not to criticize someone else's podcast, but that it makes me feel better because I know that sometimes if I have a guest, the audio is not perfect, and I don't let that stress me out. That's my point.

I was listening to this amazing podcast or who had great content, and I really enjoyed it. And thank you for sending it to me. I just noted that the audio wasn't amazing, and I didn't judge it. But it made me feel better about myself. That was why I told that story. [laughs] Anyway, it might not be perfect, but it's-- actually my director told me that when we were recording the Audiobook. She's like, “Podcasts can be recorded on the street, but for Audiobook, it has to be perfect.”

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's interesting. I have had a few requests on my other show to do it live. So, I remember when-- I haven't released this episode yet, but I did an episode on hyperbaric chambers. And I'm like friends adjacent with the guy, like he's a friend of a friend. He was like, “You should come down to my hyperbarics and we’ll record from the chamber.” I was like, “No.” [laughs] He was trying to convince me to do that for a month.

Gin Stephens: Seriously, though, it doesn't have to be perfect. Just have some fun.

Melanie Avalon: Well, so here's the other thing. And then I had Brad Kearns on recently, and we've become really good friends. And he's like, “We're going to do another one. We're going to do it live.” And I'm like, “No, no, no,” because here's the thing, with my other show, well, it might be different if it was more casual, like talking again with Brad. But, in general, I have so much prep work that, I need my notes, I need to not have the camera because they need to be like-- basically, I like have to be in my zone, as the way I perceive myself as a performer. If I was in real life with these guests, it would add a whole another aspect of me being aware of like what I look like.

Gin Stephens: 100%, I get that, yep. People have been like, “Why don't you do a video of your podcast too, and then you could put it on YouTube, because so many people do.” Because I don't want to. I don't want to be on video while I'm recording with someone. I take notes while we're talking, I take notes what my guest is saying, and then I circle back to things, but I'm writing and I don't want to have to think about how my face looks. And do I look weird? Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon: Do you do video?

Gin Stephens: Well, we can see each other while we're recording, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, but you don't want to air it.

Gin Stephens: But we don't record it. We don't record the video. No, no, I've no desire to record that and air it.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I'm that plus one step more. I don't even let the other guests see me because it would just take me out. I have so much going on in my head when I'm doing those shows. I can't-- It would really stress me out, too bad.

Gin Stephens: I enjoy being able to see the person we like, we see each other. That's okay. Sometimes if we have weird internet, we'll have to turn off the video and I don't like it as much. I like to be able to see the person I'm talking to, but I don't want the world, I don't want to have to worry about it, because when I'm being recorded, sometimes someone will record me for a podcast and it'll be video and it just feels-- it feels like I have to be like on in a different way that I don't want to be. It's a different thing to think about.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like most of the shows I go on, I don't seek out going on other podcasts, but if people invite me-

Gin Stephens: Ditto, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: -which is a good problem to have, because I know a lot of people would die to be on some of the shows I've been on, but most of them are video. And it is-- it is a completely different experience, but it's easier for me on video if I'm the one being interviewed because then I'm not-- I'm just answering the questions.

Gin Stephens: That's true. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The one I did this week-- did I mention it on the show that I did one with Bill Tancer, New York Times bestselling author, but he's going to come on my show.

Gin Stephens: I know you told me. I can't remember if you said it on the show.

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I could tell, especially interviewing with him, we were very similar. We were talking about this, we see the world kind in the same way and he understood right from the beginning, I told him, I didn't really want to do video if that was an option. He totally understood. So, I do appreciate that. I mean, obviously, my dream is still to have a talk show and that would be completely video. But that would be different.

Gin Stephens: I wouldn't mind doing a Clean(ish) television show. Wouldn't that be fun?

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: Like Marie Kondo came in and help people say goodbye to their things. I could go in and help people get Clean(ish) in their bathroom or in their makeup or their pantry.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe I could produce your show.

Gin Stephens: That would be fun. I think I would have fun with that because it's just me and regular people and here we are, and let me help you with this, and look at this product, can you believe it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I would do that. That would be fun. I love people. I love hanging out with people and talking to people and doing stuff with people.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is why I want like a talk show. I like people in a controlled setting, so I would want everything to be very controlled.

Gin Stephens: I'm the opposite. I'm like, “Let's just see what happens.”

Melanie Avalon: I want studio audience, I want the lineup, everything is very much on point. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: The people have the card that says 'applause' and everybody would applaud.

Melanie Avalon: More so just the outline of where it's going to go in the segments, and we're going to do this at this point. And, yeah, I'll let the audience person handle the audience, but I would die to have a show with an audience. That would be so amazing because it would be doing the shows that we do now, but then I will get to interact in real time with people reacting to this stuff. Ah, it'd be so fun. Goals.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, Paul, thank you so much. I'm glad you think we're funny. Yeah, we get to do this for a job. That is so-- I can't believe it.

Melanie Avalon: I'm super grateful.

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I really love it.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. I really do. Now we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is: “IF and Weight Gain.” Phoebe says, “Hi, I first want to say how informative your podcast is. There is so much “bad science” out there. And I think it's great you're both espousing, so much reliable knowledge to your listeners. So, thank you for that. I started IF about two weeks ago, I found 16 hours tough in the beginning, but now I can get to 19 to 20 hours before wanting to eat again. I've been doing HIIT or strength training with small weights for about an hour each day. I feel great during the fast and I love waking up with a flat stomach. I had no issues switching over to clean fasting within the first week and only have black coffee and water in the day. My issue is I have not lost any weight, and instead I keep fluctuating around the same mark. Some days I eat more, and others less, I only really ever seem to go down on the scale if I drink wine the night before, but I don't know if that's due to dehydration.

I'm 5’7” and 24 years old, but I've gained about 20 pounds about 10 during quarantine that I'm desperate to lose. I'm sensitive to dairy and I have digestion issues when I eat high fiber foods such as rye bread and bananas and also cruciferous vegetables. I can eat in very small doses and be fine, but too much, and I get stomach pains/gas/bloating. I don't know if I haven't given it enough time or if maybe I'm eating too much in these meals and I should calorie count. I really want IF to work and I'm sad at the lack of my own progress. I know, Gin, you say that I might be getting smaller/building muscle, but all of my jeans still tight. Do you think it's something to do with cortisol levels or water retention?”

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] I know--I know Gin has been like dying this whole time.

Gin Stephens: No. I do not. I do not think that’s it, Phoebe. Sorry. [gasping] Go ahead, keep going.

Melanie Avalon: One more sentence-- One more sentence Gin.

Gin Stephens: It's none of that, Phoebe. All right, go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: “Would love your advice on the issue. Sorry for the giant mega essay. Phoebe.”

Gin Stephens: I highlighted three words.

Melanie Avalon: Can I guess what they are?

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Two weeks ago.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Those are the three-- those are the three words I highlighted. That's all you need to know, Phoebe. You just started two weeks ago, there's no diet plan of the world that is going to cause you to lose amazing amounts of fat quickly. You might go down really fast on the scale and certain diets you've done in the past, but we don't lose fat that quickly. But with intermittent fasting, we definitely do not lose weight quickly. It sounds to me you probably have not read Fast. Feast. Repeat. I would really recommend that you read that. Anyone who's starting out, is not just because I want to sell you a book, I promise. It's because I think it's valuable. If I just wanted to sell people book, Delay, Don't Deny, I could have just kept selling that one. I wrote Fast. Feast. Repeat. because I wanted a better book out there. I'm really proud of Fast. Feast. Repeat.

I would recommend, if you're starting out, take the time to listen to Fast. Feast. Repeat. if you don't like to read, it's on Audible, I read it to you. I want you to start with the 28-Day Fast Start chapter. In that chapter, I'm very, very, very clear that you should not expect weight loss in the first 28 days. That's because your body is learning how to do something new. You're learning how to tap into your fat stores for fuel. So, you're like fasting during the day, then you're also working out in there, and then you're eating, and then your body's doing all these changes. A lot of things are going on behind the scenes. But what your body is probably not doing great yet, is burning fat and metabolically flexible, and all the magic that we want to have happen. So, I don't think that it's that you're building all this muscle and you've lost all this fat. I mean, it's only been two weeks.

I also want to encourage you to read the Scale-Schmale chapter, that is a very, very, very important chapter. It talks about all the different ways that I want you to measure your progress. The scale is a tiny little piece of that, especially since you're doing high intensity interval training or strength training for an hour every day. That is going to lead to muscle building. I'm not saying that's what's happened already, because it's only been two weeks. But you are going to probably see body re-composition with the combination of fat burning once your body is adjusted. And then now you're doing this high intensity interval training and strength training, so you're going to be building muscle well. You're going to need to use a lot of different tools to measure your progress, and the scale is likely to be the least effective. Especially since you only have 20 pounds to lose, and you're young, you're 24 years old. So, you're probably going to be better at building muscle than someone who's my age.

You're going to need to use things like progress photos, honesty pants, measurements. If you just are desperately staring at the scale, you're going to be really, really disappointed because you will probably find that you get down to your dream body, and you probably aren't going to see the actual number on the scale you think you need to see, because your body is going to change so much. But it's way too early to be stressing about that for now. You got to give it a long time. It might take you 20 weeks to get to your dream body. Like I said, it might not even be the number on the scale that you think it's going to be ever. You got to let go of that that number and instead focus on what your body does. And your clothes, your measurements, your progress photos, that is really the best way to judge it.

I don't want you to be all worried about, “Oh, my gosh, I got to change everything because this isn't working.” Your body's doing what it's supposed to do. Just keep going. And don't be sad, because again, two weeks is not very long in the whole scheme of things.

Melanie Avalon: I really have nothing to add to that, I think. [laughs] Our next question is actually similar about as far as like weight loss. So maybe we can see if there's any nuance to be added for Ashley's question. But, yes, hopefully, Phoebe, feel free to write back and report back if you are still having issues way down the road.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because that's really important. You really have to give it the long-term approach. And even if you are using the scale, it can be an important tool, but you still have to focus on your overall trend. I talk about and Fast. Feast. Repeat. why it's important to weigh daily if you're using the scale, and calculate your overall trend. There are apps that do that for you, like Happy Scale. I like to do an old school because that's just me. I wrote it on paper, got out my calculator, added it off, divided by seven. I even put it on a little graph by hand. There was just something pleasing and plotting it, that made me feel like, “Here I am. I'm plotting it on my graph.” Knowing the overall trend is really important.

We have a question from Ashley, and the subject is: “Windows, Endurance, Sports, Leaning Out.” All right. She said, “First off, let me say that I love you ladies and feel like we are friends. I've never been into podcasts until I found you. My dad actually said, ‘You need to listen. They are like you.’” Oh, I love that your dad said that. I mean, your dad is listening. Hi, dad or Ashley’s dad. All right. She said, “And I've been hooked ever since. I'm an elementary school counselor and have been following a paleo/primal diet for seven to eight years. I began IF 16:8, not really knowing what it was, and only stopped for pregnancy with my twins. I had to eat to help my morning sickness. I just completed two marathons and run half marathons about four to five times a year. In addition, I teach group fitness class with high intensity interval training, weights, and cardio two to three times a week.” I still have hard time just saying HIIT. I think they say HIIT, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I always say H-I-I-T.

Gin Stephens: She said, “Sorry for all the info, but I feel like it's helpful to have the background.” Yes, Ashley. We like the info, so thank you.” She said, “I currently alternate between a 16 to 24-hour window. I play around with what works for that day, with Sundays very relaxed. Here's my question. I'm looking for fat loss. Do I keep my window more consistent and pass the 18-hour or 20-hour mark always? Do I forego my paleo treats in my window? Do I focus on carbs? Please help and keep up the good work. Thanks so much, and keep on keeping on. Much love.”

Melanie Avalon: Did she say how long she's been doing IF?

Gin Stephens: Ah-huh. See, that's the thing. So, I have no idea.

Melanie Avalon: I vote that we approach this like she's been doing it longer.

Gin Stephens: Well, it sounds like she did it and then she got pregnant and stopped doing it. And then she started doing it again.

Melanie Avalon: If it's the situation where she hasn't been doing it long, then she can apply the Phoebe answer.

Gin Stephens: True.

Melanie Avalon: We can answer this now for if it has been longer. First, I want to comment though, on the morning sickness. I have not aired the episode yet. I'm not sure when it's airing. But I interviewed Dr. Michael Platt. And he wrote a book called The Miracle of Bio-Identical Hormones. And he talks a lot about morning sickness and makes a huge case for supplemental progesterone to resolve that. I don't have any experience with morning sickness and pregnancy and progesterone. So, I can't speak to it personally. But for any listeners that are pregnant and experiencing that, that might be something to try. And I've been using this cream every night. I've been using progesterone for years. But I switched over to his cream and saw a huge, huge benefit. And then on top of that, my sister, I don't know, I might have shared this on the show already. But my sister had PMDD, which is basically the really intense diagnoseable form of PMS. And she's had it for like a decade, and she's tried so many things. She started taking the progesterone cream. And he says in his book, and I'm sorry, this is a tangent. He says in his book that it'll just go away.

I told her about it, and she started taking it, and it just went away after 10 years. She was shocked. I was so happy. I was like he really makes it sound like this will resolve it and she's been dealing with this for so long. So, I will put a link in the show notes. I do have a discount code. Michael Platt is the brand. I think the code is MELANIEAVALON for discount. But that's just a resource for morning sickness. But back to the question. Ashley is doing a lot of activity. Just want to note that. Okay. Assuming you have weight to lose, because she doesn't--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she sounds like she's trying to lose fat and she's maybe having trouble with that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The important things to focus on is the diet that provides the nutrition that you need, especially when you're doing all of this exercise. All of the protein, all the nutrients, but is ultimately two things. One, supporting the fat burning state. Of course, with intermittent fasting, the fasting is creating that, but you can really tweak that even more by finding the dietary macros that your body burns very efficiently and lets you really go into the fastest state with no hunger and continue the fat burning mode. And then also, if it's-- fat loss is the goal, focusing on foods that really fill you up without adding a huge surplus of calories because a lot of people think, “Oh, I'm fasting, so it doesn't matter.” I'm not saying that you think this actually, but a lot of people might think that they're fasting, so it doesn't really matter the calories that they're eating. Again, we're not about counting calories. We already said we don't count calories. But choosing the type of foods that are not going to necessarily create a massive calorie surplus, especially calories that are easily stored can definitely have a huge effect on weight loss.

Gin Stephens: Like what are paleo treats? She said, does she need to forego paleo treats. I don't know what that might even be because I've never tried to do paleo.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know what that is. But a lot of paleo treats are often things like, nut butters and lots of nuts.

Gin Stephens: Like very nutrient dense, but also calorically dense.

Melanie Avalon: So in my book for example-- I'm just thinking about the recipes in my book. I have recipes for brownies made from avocado, like avocado brownies and cakes or things like that made from almond flours instead of normal flour. I do find that the-- It depends where they are, but the paleo treats can often be pretty high calorie. So, the point of all of that is, you can eat too many calories in your eating window, so that you don't lose fat in your fasting window. So, you can really choose where you want to focus and try different things because she also asked about, “Do I focus on carbs?” So, I do think if fat loss is the goal, looking at macros, to find the macros that work for you and experimenting is a really good way to go. Maybe low carb works for you. Maybe low fat works better. Maybe one works at one time, maybe one works at another time. But if trying a low version of either one, so either low carb or low fat can often work really well. If you are having those paleo treats, cutting those out can help really well. Ashley might not be eating this. It might not be in her “paleo protocol.” But just for people in general. If they're eating massive amounts of things like cheese.

Especially after-- I already thought this already, but especially after reading Dr. Neal Barnard’s book, The Cheese Trap. I don't agree with everything that he says, but he does make a very big case for just how incredibly fattening cheese is. If you're eating massive amount, even, maybe not even massive amounts, but a lot of cheese in your window, that could really be stalling weight loss. I think nuts can often stall weight loss. But then also, she asks about like, does she need to actually change the window? Does it need to be consistent? Does it always need to be longer? What I would probably do, and I feel like I'm all over the place right now is, I would probably first find the window that you're liking, if a consistent window does work for you, and then if that's not working, I would tweak with the food choices. And I would really just go in the order of what feels right to you. So maybe it's trying to just cut out these treats, or maybe it's working on the macros. But, yes, things can be done. Oh, and focusing on protein.

Gin Stephens: I would also be very cautious. If you're really, really doing a lot of physical activity, teaching group fitness classes, two to three times a week. I mean, you probably need a longer eating window, you need to fuel your body because we talk about how intermittent fasting is not a problem for women, but over restriction is. And if you're really hitting the gym hard, and restricting your diet, and intermittent fasting and pushing it more and more, that does turn into a state of over restriction. So, you just have to kind of find the balance, so that it isn't overly restrictive for your body. I just think that's really important. We've gotten to the point in society where we're like, “Well, let's just do more. Let's do more high intensity training. Let's have a longer fast.” Really, maybe you just need to, you did say Sundays are very relaxed, that's good. But that doesn't mean you need to just keep pushing it more every day necessarily, but I feel you already know, Ashley, because when you said, “Do I forego my paleo treats in my window?” I think that was you kind of knowing that might be it.

There're some things that are really easy to eat. It might be something that's like perfectly on plan, but that doesn't mean that it's helping you with your fat loss goals.

Melanie Avalon: This is just me personally. The thing I love about fasting and the eating window is, I don't ever want to restrict the quantity of the food I'm eating. I don't want to ever have to feel like I have to stop eating, and I'm not saying anybody has to do that. But when I focus on just whole foods, so I don't make these paleo treats. I don't eat nuts. I have been eating actually fat free cheese recently, I've been experimenting with that, but don't do high fat cheese or anything like that. If I eat the certain foods that I eat that are all whole foods, I really can just eat as much as I want it. It's going to support for me either like maintenance or weight loss. It doesn't really lead to weight gain. Whereas if I added in, at least for me personally, things like this, it could be made from the same substrates of “paleo foods,” but when they enter this more process form, it's a way to eat a lot of more processed calories really fast, and I might not be able to just eat unlimited amounts of that. So, yes.

Gin Stephens: All right. That was a lot, but I felt like it was good.

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All right. So, now we have a question from Jennifer. The subject is: “Feeling Full.” Jennifer says, “Hi, Melanie and Gin. I love your podcast. A friend of mine suggested IF and she suggested that I tune in.” This is the second question where it was suggested by somebody.

Gin Stephens: I know, I love that.

Melanie Avalon: She says, “I'm so glad I did. I spent years yo-yo dieting and it was awful. I've been following 16:8 and I'm about a week in. I feel great already. I've been told for years by my doctor and herbalist that I'm insulin resistant, but I didn't want to accept that. I finally have the mindset that it's time to take control and feel better. Here's my question. I have noticed that during my eating window, I get very full very quickly. I've stopped eating and found myself super hungry during the fasting period. I clean fast. I don't want to force myself to keep eating during my eating window either when I feel so full. Suggestions, I want to get my nutrients in, but I don't want to overdo it. I'm eating very little carbs.

Gin Stephens: All right so Jennifer, I'm going to give you the same advice I gave a few questions ago. And that is that you are still so very new. You are, what, one week in? You're not at the point yet where you're really tuned in to what's happening in your body. The whole idea of appetite correction, that's a term coined by Dr. Bert Herring. I talk about it in Fast. Feast. Repeat. So, if you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat., go to that chapter about appetite correction and read about it. I love the concept. Basically, the idea is that our bodies are born to know when we've had enough to eat so that we stop eating. All the animals in nature, they eat, they stop eating. You don't see obese lions out there. We only see that when animals are like human fed. We start feeding them the things they're not supposed to eat. We start feeding the ducks the bread and now the ducks are having problems. But as long as we leave the animals alone, they know what to eat and how much to eat without even counting a calorie. They just stop.

The thing about intermittent fasting is, once your body adjusts, and you're tapping into your fat stores during the fast and you're feeding your body nutritious foods, during your eating window, you can reconnect with those natural hunger and satiety cues that your body has. It doesn't really help that you're eating real food though, because just like those ducks that overeat the bread because they're not really supposed to be eating that bread, but we're feeding it to them and they just keep eating it. Same with us. If we're not eating enough nutrients, then we're not going to hear that we've had enough to eat. But my point is that, your signals are all out of whack because you're still early on. So, give it some time. You’re going to be hungrier during the fast now in the early days, then you will after a body adjusts. So, just be patient with your body. Read the chapter again, like I said, on appetite correction.

No, you do not want to force yourself to keep eating if you feel full. That is 100% true. But if you're really, really starving during your fast, that could just be the adjustment period and that's going to get better as you go.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good reframe. She was obviously thinking that the hunger was from the not eating enough, but it might just be the lack of adaptions. So, let's say she's down the road, and she's been doing IF for a few months, like it for anybody who had been down the road, and are still experiencing hunger. And if it is from not eating enough, what do you recommend in those situations?

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean, that usually doesn't happen. Especially when she's got an eight-hour window, I would have a really hard time with the idea that she couldn't figure out how to eat enough food in an eight-hour window. You could put two meals in there and it works its way out usually after you're adjusted. This is not something that usually keeps coming up after someone's adjusted.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, perfect. I think you answered that.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: So, we have one last question from Carla. The subject is: “Hormones.” Carla says, “I have heard that IF will help regulate--” She says she's not sure what the exact word is, but your hormones. “How long does this typically take? And how can you tell it is working? When I asked this question to an IF Facebook group, they couldn't answer it, and they just asked if I have insulin resistance? I have no clue. How do I know if I have insulin resistance? I'm so confused.”

Gin Stephens: Well, this is a very broad question like, “Will IF help regulate your hormones?” The answer is maybe yes, maybe no, depends. It depends on which hormones. Now I totally understand why they asked if you have insulin resistance, because that is one hormone that intermittent fasting will help you regulate your insulin levels. When they asked you, “Do you have insulin resistance?” That was them saying, “Well, if the answer is yes, you have insulin resistance, then yes, intermittent fasting will help regulate that.”

Hormones are such a broad topic in your body, you've got a lot of different hormones. You've got thyroid hormones, you've got metabolic hormones, you've got so many different-- female hormones.

Melanie Avalon: Even vitamin D is a hormone.

Gin Stephens: Right, we can't tell you how intermittent fasting is going to impact all those many things that are going on in your body because it's like a balancing act. One thing that happens over here and that changes something that's happening over there. Intermittent fasting does help get a lot of those things into balance, but it just really depends on what your underlying conditions are. We can't really say this is what IF is going to do because we can't know. It just depends on so many individual factors. So, if you don't know if you have insulin resistance, then maybe you don't. But if you're overweight, if you've been struggling with your weight for a while, you probably do. And if the answer is yes, you've been struggling with your weight for a while, then probably yes, intermittent fasting is going to help with that aspect hormonally, and help with your insulin resistance.

Melanie Avalon: I think as far as-- Gin said it really well. Hormones, it is such a broad term. I think we do throw it around pretty casually a lot. I already earlier was talking about hormones with-- I mean, progesterone, and that whole world, that's all hormones. I think a reason that IF does in general-- help hormones in general is that a lot of the hormonal dysregulation today often does come from our diet. The foods that we're eating, eating constantly can encourage a lot of hormonal dysregulation. And so having this fasted period, it can regulate in a way or potentially help certain hormones, definitely on the insulin resistance front. That's this very specific area of hormones that's dealing specifically with insulin, which is a hormone that's involved with your fuel use and fuel storage.

In the dietary aspect of hormones, it's most likely going to really help with that. But then beyond that, all the other hormones, the female hormones, I think in general it tends to help a lot of people, but it really depends on what is your personal hormonal issue as to how it's going to affect that or what it's going to do. So, it's a very broad question. You could work with a knowledgeable practitioner, though, if you wanted to check on some hormones, actually some different resources.

For example, if you listen to the ad on today's show by InsideTracker, they test for example, some hormones. Not a ton of them, but I think they test. They look at certain blood markers that correlate to metabolic health and longevity. They test the test that they think you need to be testing to really get a picture of your metabolic health. So, they test DHEA, testosterone, and sex hormone binding globulin because they feel like those are the most important hormones to be testing for metabolic health. So, you could check out their panel if you'd like to look into that. And then beyond that, you could work with a physician who could do other hormonal tests, you could do a DUTCH test if you want to look at hormones specifically related to women and estrogen and estradiol. And that is something that you need to look at on a 24-hour. I think it's 24-hours that you do the test and it's a urine test. Insulin would be something that you could test, doctors don't test it that much, but you can ask for it. Your HOMA-IR would be testing your insulin and comparing it to your-- I think your blood glucose and that can give you a good marker of insulin resistance or insulin sensitivity. So, it's a whole world. I encourage you to work with somebody on it. But in general, I do think a lot of people experience hormonal benefits with fasting.

Gin Stephens: Yep, absolutely. The thing that's so important for people to understand is, intermittent fasting is an amazing tool for help. But it's not the only tool and it doesn't fix everything.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: It also doesn't cause every problem that you might have. It isn't the cause of everything or the effect of everything or the fix of everything. It's a tool that's really useful, it will always be in my toolbox. But sometimes I need a different tool for a job. I got a hammer in there, but sometimes I need a screwdriver.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I really think that phrase, “When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail,” is a really enlightening phrase, because so many people think when they're looking through a certain lens, they might think everything is one thing, so that fasting will fix everything or that all the problems are from fasting. But there's so much more beyond that.

Gin Stephens: Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Alrighty. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode242. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we've talked about. And then you can also follow us on Instagram. I am @MelanieAvalon, and Gin is @GinStephens. Gin, I tagged you today in a photo, did you see that?

Gin Stephens: Oh, okay. No, I didn't.

Melanie Avalon: It's the flowers you sent from my birthday.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I'll have to look. Well, good. I'm just not really on Instagram a lot. So, I'm trying to still decide. But I will definitely look and see the flowers. I'm looking right now. Oh, there they are. Oh, it looks all fancy.

Melanie Avalon: See how they bloomed?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Do you see how they're huge?

Gin Stephens: They are huge.

Melanie Avalon: Because when I first sent you the picture, and I should have taken it so that it wasn't all the green ones because there's a lot of pink ones on the other side. When I first sent you the picture, they were closed up. Oh, by the way, random side note. You know how I told you my cucumbers died and I had to start over?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Now they're growing again up the windows and today is the first day that a flower, like a massive flower. After this, I got to go pollinate them with my pollinator. Oh, man. I'm excited.

Gin Stephens: Well, have fun.

Melanie Avalon: I will and you have fun.

Gin Stephens: All right, I will.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I guess, I'll talk to you after Thanksgiving, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. That's when we're recording next.

Melanie Avalon: So, have a fabulous Thanksgiving.

Gin Stephens: You too.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Theme music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Nov 28

Episode 241: Fasting For Health, Minnesota Starvation Experiment, Glycemic Index, Red Meat Vs. White Meat, Grain Fed Vs. Grass-Fed Beef, Saturated Fat, Clean Beauty Products, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

Listener Q&A: lynn - Best window for health benefits

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Ashley - Minnesota Starvation experiment

The Case for Keto: Rethinking Weight Control and the Science and Practice of Low-Carb/High-Fat Eating

Listener Q&A: rebecca - Eating red meat regularly

Sacred Cow: The Case for (Better) Meat: Why Well-Raised Meat Is Good for You and Good for the Planet

Episode 237: Our Taste For Sodium, Electrolytes, Low Carb Diets, Hydration & pH Balance, Fatigue & Muscle Cramps, Thermoregulation, Exercise, Sauna, Need Vs. Optimization, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Phoebe - Clean Beauty brands besides beautycounter

Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon Facebook Group

EWG’s Healthy Living App

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #77 - Dr. Jason Fung

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 241 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. Yes, free steaks for a year. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high-quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution.

It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers. They find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately your health so that you can finally get meat have the highest standards 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry.

But back to meat, ButcherBox's meat is delicious. Each box contains 8 to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want and it's shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious. The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the pork chops and the bacon. Basically, this stuff is delicious. And this holiday, ButcherBox has an incredible deal. They have never done this before ever and it won't last forever. They're actually giving new members pre–New York strip steaks for a year. Until November 30th, 2021, you can get two delicious 100% grass-fed New York Strip steaks for free in every box for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com/if podcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive this limited time offer of free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. And we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare and makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare and makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations. Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body.

Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, antiaging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 241 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I am okay but so, so disappointed. As you know--

Melanie Avalon: Me too.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The last time we recorded, we were going to be getting together in Atlanta. We've never met face to face still. But I had to not go to Atlanta because I got a little fever and I was like, "Well, team, should I still come to Atlanta if I have a fever?" They're like, "We can just record from your house." So, I'm recording from home instead of going to Atlanta and so we did not meet.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so sad. Listeners, I found the place we were going to go.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I looked at the menu. It was going to be great. I will go to Atlanta, again. I know I will.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I want to tell you, Gin, Gin sent me very beautiful flowers but it's funny. I sent her picture and she was like, "They're supposed to look like this." She sent another picture where they looked more full in the picture. They have since opened up. So, now, they look like the picture that you sent.

Gin Stephens: Were they already arranged or did you have to arrange them?

Melanie Avalon: I did.

Gin Stephens: See, it was supposed to be arranged. It did not work out. It was supposed to come already arranged from a florist.

Melanie Avalon: Well, really? Did it say that in the notes?

Gin Stephens: I mean that's what I ordered.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, okay. [laughs] Well, they were beautiful. Thank you. Lots of pink.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sorry, you had to self-arrange your flowers. That's new. When you do one of those, it goes to just a local florist and then I guess they decide what to do.

Melanie Avalon: Somebody else sent flowers from the same company in the same order in the same box and they weren't arranged either. Do you think those were supposed to be arranged?

Gin Stephens: Well, that's weird. I don't know. But I've used this company for a long time and they've always gone to people arranged before.

Melanie Avalon: Well, they were beautiful. Thank you.

Gin Stephens: But you know, with the whole pandemic, who knows? Maybe business models have changed. So, I'm glad they were pretty. Happy, happy birthday. Sorry that we didn't get to celebrate in person. But you know, thank goodness for modern technology where I can just record from home which is probably working out better anyway, because I didn't want to be in a hotel for all those days and in a recording studio.

Melanie Avalon: I think this happened last time. Remember last time you're going to come?

Gin Stephens: Well, last time, I couldn't come because the world shut down. I wasn't sick but all the recording studios shut down because it was March of 2020.

Melanie Avalon: Right.

Gin Stephens: They're like, "Sorry, no one can travel anywhere in the entire world ever because of COVID." It was just because they just shut down everything. I tried to find a place here locally, at a local radio station, they're like, "Nope, we're not letting anyone in because of COVID." So, I just recorded from home. But you know, we have it all worked out because I did it once before. If it ever happens again, I'll just plan to record from home because it really is nice just to be at home.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Nice.

Gin Stephens: I can do it. I can record professionally from home. So, it's really fun. I have a director, and there's an engineer, and we're all in there together, and the two ladies that are doing it with me are just delightful. We actually have a great time. As we're going through the book, they're like, "Okay, now, tell me more about that." [laughs] Lots of fun.

Melanie Avalon: How much more do you have to record?

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, I'm never going to be finished. It feels like it's going to be forever.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I've done a lot of audiobooks on my own but for my book, I just recorded the intro and that took long enough.

Gin Stephens: It takes hours. It's really intense.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it really is.

Gin Stephens: I really don't enjoy it. I'm making the most of it. I'm enjoying the company, I'm enjoying the process as much as I can, but I can't wait for it to be over. All the words, I'm like, "Who wrote this book? Who put all this garbage in there?" They're like, "Oh, yeah, me. It was me. I wrote it." Like, "Why did I write it like that? I should have not used that word." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm sure it will turn out fabulously.

Gin Stephens: Well, I hope so. So, how was your birthday?

Melanie Avalon: It was so good. I had a wonderful dinner at my favorite restaurant in Atlanta where I'd only actually been to the bar, I hadn't eaten there before. I went with the family, and it was just really, really amazing. Then, oh, can I tell the first thing that happened on my birthday?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: It is so exciting and it's only going to be exciting for a segment of our audience. But, okay, Taylor Swift, as you know, for all of her albums, she releases a signed version on her store, and they sell out in minutes, like minutes, like you cannot get the signed version. It just so happens that when I woke up on my birthday-- I do this thing where I wake up and you're not supposed to do this, listeners, but the first thing I do when I wake up is I check my email, because I wake up very groggy and I find that if I check my email, then I'm like, "Oh, I'm awake." So, I find it to be very helpful.

So, I checked my email. The first email I saw was from the Taylor Swift store announcing the signed CDs. I was like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm sure these are all gone. There's no way." I clicked on it. They were there. The email had just come in, and I'd just woken up, and I checked it. So, I got three of them. Then five minutes later, they were gone. But it was like, "Happy Birthday."

Gin Stephens: Perfect birthday. First thing I do is check my email too. Who said you're not supposed to do that?

Melanie Avalon: They say start your day off--

Gin Stephens: Who is they?

Melanie Avalon: They say, oh, no. They're like starts you off in a state of cortisol rather than gratitude. But I think it just wakes me up.

Gin Stephens: I've already been like resting, and I feel good, and so then, I just look at them. It doesn't stress me out.

Melanie Avalon: I like checking my email.

Gin Stephens: I think it would stress me out more not to check it. I'd be like, "What am I missing? What am I missing?" Then, I'd be all stressed out. Instead, it gives me a feeling of accomplishment like, "I just did all that," and then I get up about of bed. So, actually, they are not the boss of me or you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it gives me a sense, because I can't address all the emails, but I can see what all is there. So, I can have a sense of like, "Okay, this is the task for the day."

Gin Stephens: Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's the day started. I flagged things that I can't handle right at that moment. So, then I have flagged emails, then I go back to them later, but it puts that aside and then I can start my day.

Melanie Avalon: It might also matter-- I love in general my emails. It's all things I want to be talking about. It's like talking to guests. It's with brands. It's very fun. It's not like a drag for me. So, it's not like it's I very much look forward to emailing people. So, can I make one quick announcement?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: By the time this airs, for sure, I think the preorder special will have gone live last week, I think, for my serrapeptase. So, that's very exciting. If it's still available, you can get it now probably or preorder it now. I'm pretty sure-- because I was talking with my partner, I'm pretty sure it's going to be shipping pretty soon after the preorders. So, we thought it was going to be maybe January, but the turnaround has been pretty fast, and I think today that we're recording, not that this is released, I think I'm going to get my bottle of it because--

Gin Stephens: I was going to ask if you had had any yet.

Melanie Avalon: Scott at the company, he got his yesterday and he was sending me pictures, and he tried it for himself-- and oh, this is really exciting. So, it has an enteric coating, because serrapeptase, if you don't have a protective coating on the capsule to keep it from breaking down in the stomach, it'll break down before it reaches the small intestine where it needs to reach in order to get into the bloodstream. So, he did some tests where he was putting our serrapeptase in vinegar and then putting other competing brands in vinegar to see if they broke down or not. All the other brands broke down within like half an hour and ours was still good at the two-hour mark, which means it's definitely surviving the stomach, and then it'll open in the small intestine. They've tested it for the potency and the effectiveness because apparently enzymes die pretty easily. They'll become inactive. But this one is all good and it's tested for mold and heavy metals, and it has an MCT filler, no additives. Oh, I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: So, friends, you can get it. Long, long, long story short, it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. Now, it's created in a lab. That's why it's vegan. People were asking me how can it be vegan if it's created by a silkworm? It is grown in a lab. That is how. You take it in the fasted state it breaks down protein buildups in your body, problematic protein buildups. So, if you have allergies or inflammation, it can help that, it can break down fibroids, it can potentially reduce cholesterol, amyloid plaque which is involved in Alzheimer's. It's like a wonder supplement. So, you can probably order it now. The information for it is that melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase and the actual website to order is avalonx.com. And I'll put all that in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: So fun.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I know. All right. So, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have a question from Lynn and the subject is: "Best window for health benefits." Lynn says, "I am new to IF, and while I could see me lose a few pounds, I'm in good shape overall. No health issues to speak of, all blood work in normal range, and I work out with weights and cardio regularly. My goal, which leads to my question, is to gain optimal health from IF, not necessarily to lose weight. So, my question is what is or are the best fasting windows for optimal health gains whether that be gains in gut health, autophagy, insulin, etc.? What can I expect as a 53-year-old woman to gain from a 24-hour fast, 36-hour fast, 48-hour fast etc.? Is there a sweet spot of fasting that might be best for health gains? Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I love your podcasts. I listened to them all. No offense, Gin, but Melanie, I really enjoy your Biohacking Podcast." No offense taken Lynn. [laughs] I'm glad you love it. "For this podcast, I really enjoy it when you go on your tangents. I always learn something new. Wishing you both health and happiness. Lynn."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Lynn, thank you for your question. I'm glad she likes the tangents. This is a really great question and I feel like with diet where I don't think there's one right diet for everybody, and it's very individual, and you have to find what works for you, I think the same goes for fasting. Also for diet, [giggles] I think the idea with diet for long-term health, I think it's more about what you do for life, the thing that you can maintain and do that is healthy compared to a crash diet or a crash healthy phase, and then reverting back to a standard diet. So, with fasting, I think is a foundation, finding the daily fasting window that works for you in that you get in "ample fasting." So, probably a minimum of 16 hours fasting every day. Then, the window-- I think if you can fast longer than that every day, I think that's fine. But if you're doing a 24-hour fast and that leads to an unhealthy relationship with food where you feel like you overeat or you feel that it's not sustainable, then I would say fast less. For some people, that might be great. I think the first part to answer the question is just the daily fasting window that works well for you-- Of course, there would be an approach. Some people do better with something like ADF, where they're not fasting every day. So, that might be the "daily maintenance approach" that you do and that would be where you'd be alternating.

But then beyond that, like longer fasts, so 36-hour, fast, 48-hour fast, etc., I think those are concentrated endeavors that you might want to take occasionally to do some extra deep cleaning in a way. You can kind of think of fasting is your daily cleaning of the apartment or house, and then a longer fast might be like that time where you sit down to do a really deep clean. That said, I think you will get a fantastic epic health and never do a long fast. I don't think you have to do it to have incredible health benefits. But if it resonates with you and you want to do one, I also think that's fine. I don't want to be confusing to listeners. But I also don't have a problem with something like a fasting mimicking diet, which is Valter Longo's work. He has his version that you can buy or people do their own self constructed versions. You can google like D-I-Y-F-M-D. I'm not a doctor. I'm not endorsing that, but I'm saying that it's something you might want to do as well. That would be basically getting, according to his research, the effects of a long fasts or like a five day fast without completely water fasting for five days.

Gin Stephens: It just sounds so much harder to me than having to eat that little bit of food. I cannot imagine it being easier than just fasting.

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is for me, a 48-hour fast, I think, it would be much easier for me, complete water fasting. Five days, I don't know if I could fast five days. Mostly with the sleep issue, I think if I did-- I haven't done FMD, but I wonder if I did it, where I had all of the stuff just at night, if I could do the five days.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it just sounds like a really miserable low-calorie diet. It doesn't sound like fasting at all

Melanie Avalon: The benefits that you're getting, it's extremely low protein. So, you're really tapping into that autophagy. So, there's a lot of research on how it affects the immune system. Breaking down immune compounds-- I think most of his research is in rodents, but basically, breaking down immune compounds and as he says it can "reset" the immune system, and it might be like a level of autophagy that you wouldn't achieve otherwise.

Gin Stephens: So, you're saying that by eating those small amounts of food, you're having more autophagy than if you just completely fasted? That doesn't make any sense.

Melanie Avalon: No, no. Not more than if you just completely fasted.

Gin Stephens: Right. See, that's my whole point. That's what I don't get. I understand his research showing that there are benefits to his fasting mimicking diet, mimicking fasting, but I cannot wrap my head around it being easier than actual fasting or even better than actual fasting. That's the part I cannot make sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think as far as easier, I think it'd be individual, some people would find it easier and some people wouldn't. As far as equivalent or better, I think it's possible depending on the individual, it might be equivalent. I think it's possible depending on an individual, for some, it might be better, for some, it might be worse. It's hard to know. Yeah, it's a lot of unknowns. Basically, it's something that people could try if they want.

Gin Stephens: I do want to also say that personally, I always recommend, if you're going to fast more than 72 hours, you should be under medical supervision, just because you don't want to DIY it and get in over your head.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's great point. I'll put a link in the show notes. I have interviewed recently actually Dr. Valter Longo on the show that Lynn mentioned on the Biohacking Podcast. So, I'll put a link to that. But I said a lot, Gin.

Gin Stephens: I think Lynn has such an interesting question. We really haven't seen a lot of this recently. Maybe because I left Facebook, I don't know. People in the community are less likely to-- I'm not sure. All the time in Facebook, I remember people would try to post this one graphic that was like, "Here's what happens when you fast." By the hour and it was like, "Here's what happens at x and y and art 24 and 36." Unfortunately, our body just isn't like that. We don't really have like, "Here's what happens at 24 on the dot and here's what happens at 36." It's going to be really highly individual, because it depends on your own metabolic flexibility, it depends on what you ate, so many factors. So, it's not like we can say, here is the amount of fasting that's right for you. We very often-- well, actually, every time, I think we emphasize that we can't really say that, because it just depends so much on personal factors like how big your appetite is.

Like you said at the beginning, Melanie, whether you fast for 23 hours or 16 hours, it really just is going to depend on you. So, we can't give you a here's what a 53-year-old woman would gain from this particular fast or that particular fast. It's really all about being your own study of one and responding to how you feel over time in day to day. Some days, you're going to find that you feel great fasting longer, and other days, you're hungrier. I think for optimal health gains, your best fasting windows are the ones that feel good day after day. For me, that really looks like a flexible approach.

I started off back in the day, Dr. Herring's Fast-5, which was a five hour daily eating window, and I was fairly rigid with that when I was first starting out. But over time, it had become very intuitive and learn to listen to my body. That's really I think where the optimal health comes in, in the listening to your body. One day I'm really busy and have a short window and the next day I'm like, "Man, I'm extra hungry. I need an eight-hour window today." That is really I think where the best health comes in. Learning to listen to your body, being responsive, knowing when you need a longer window and fasting longer when it feels right. I was just sick last week and I wasn't as hungry when I wasn't feeling great. So, I didn't eat very much. Then, when I got my appetite back, I ate more food. So, it's just a matter of again really being responsive to your body.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. We are on the same page.

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Melanie Avalon: Now, we have a question from Ashley. The subject is: "Minnesota starvation experiment." And Ashley says, "Hello, Gin." So, this was directed at Gin. She says, "I absolutely love Fast. Feast. Repeat and I wish I had read it 10 years ago. I'm curious regarding why the subjects in the Minnesota starvation "failed," so to speak, and that they became obsessed with food and could not maintain a healthy weight loss? Is it simply a matter of extended eating window? I'm not fully convinced that the reason is based on the fact that their foods had high glycemic index. There are many, many people in this world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup. Yet, they aren't all necessarily obsessive with food, nor do most of them have weight problems. I would greatly appreciate your insight."

Gin Stephens: Yep. Thank you for asking, Ashley. Yeah, at no point, did anyone, me, or any of the things that I've read have any comments about their failure being related to the high glycemic index. You can go ahead and put that out of your mind. I've never read an interpretation of their failure as having anything to do with the glycemic index. I'm not even sure if the glycemic index had been created at that point, honestly. The reason that they "failed" had to do with their bodies perceived that they were starving. They were eating very low amounts of food. They were doing a typical low-calorie diet, where they were eating a little bit here and there. They were eating small amounts of calories over the day. So, they never really were tapping into their fat stores like you would during the fast. So, they were not fasting. Obviously, they were eating but they were eating a very low-calorie diet. So, their bodies slowed things down, their metabolisms got slower, they started to have problems with their hunger hormones going out of whack.

You may want to read that section again in Fast. Feast. Repeat, this is the teacher in me, because if you read it, again, I think, it's pretty clearly explained. So, whatever chapter that said, I guess, it's in the introduction. But basically, it's the classic what we've all been through and also the Biggest Loser study showed the same thing. When we do a really low-calorie diet, our bodies fight back. How is fasting different? Fasting is different, because we are metabolically flexible once we adapt to the clean fast, we are fasting. Our insulin is low, we tap into our fat stores, we're actually well fueled during the fast because we're tapped into our fat stores. So, our bodies don't see that we need to slow down. All I know is anybody who's done a low-calorie traditional diet, and struggled, struggled, struggled, knows what I'm talking about. When you fast clean, it is like night and day difference. I could never maintain a low-calorie diet long term. I always failed and struggled. But I've been doing intermittent fasting with no problems since 2014. It's just a completely different way of fueling your body. Did that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I have some thoughts about it. I'm super curious. I interviewed Gary Taubes and his newest book is called The Case for Keto. But he talks about how people are on protein-sparing modified fasts, which are severely restricted diets, much more so than the Minnesota starvation experiment, which was-- I was just looking at it, 1,560. Yeah, 1,560 calories per day. Like a PSMF, protein-sparing modified fast. Sometimes, that's like 500 calories per day. I remember he said, what was interesting and one of the studies on it was that, when people follow PSMF, they didn't experience hunger. So, if they had that diet, but then if they added to it just a little bit of carbs, then they would be like ravenously hungry, which is really fascinating. Basically, being in a certain state due to the dietary choices and the calorie restriction was likely putting them in a state of ketosis, so they weren't hungry because they were living off of their body fat stores. But then, when you add in these carbs that mess with the mechanisms, then all of a sudden, they get hungry.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, they were eating just enough to keep them out of ketosis, so they were lethargic, and draggy, and-- yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Few things I wonder like, because she was mentioning the high glycemic. So, they were eating-- I mean they're basically just eating carbs. They're eating potatoes, rutabagas, turnips, bread, and macaroni. I'm super curious if they've been eating keto, like if they've been eating 1,560 calories of keto, would they have been starving? I would posit that maybe they wouldn't have been. It sounds like they are basically on-- basically, if you wanted to create a diet, a calorie restricted diet to I think, make somebody starving, you would want to give them calorie restricted, but like you just said, Gin, not so severely calorie restricted that they're inevitably going to enter ketosis because there's just such severe restriction. So, it's enough to keep them pretty much in the fed state and then all from carbs to boot. So, they're basically just living from carb to carb.

Gin Stephens: And so, they were lethargic, and draggy, and never felt good. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: That's the setup. This has not occurred, because I know you and I have discussed this before in the show, but this hadn't occurred to me before, Gin, until just now. I bet also, this was 1945. So, the obesity epidemic was not what it is today. I imagine these people coming into the experiment, even if they did the same experiment today with the same "baseline" state of people, I imagine these people probably had lower body fat to begin with. So, that could have played a role too.

Gin Stephens: They started out leaner just because that's how people were back in the 40s.

Melanie Avalon: I really think they could set it up the same way and they would make it look like the same way, because it would be a not an underweight BMI. But I think people were just leaner then. So, even a not underweight BMI, it probably was just a basically different cohort.

Gin Stephens: Different variables.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The key thing is that they were not allowed to eat until they were satisfied. Because at the end of what Ashley said, she's like, "There are many, many people in the world with diets that are similar in nutritional makeup, and yet they aren't necessarily obsessive with food." The key is that people who follow a diet where they're allowed to eat until they're satisfied, that's a very different case. These are artificially constructed from eating, like they were kept from eating the amount of food that their bodies wanted, and also their physical activity was increased as well. So, it was like the perfect storm of eat less, move more while never allowing them to-- if they'd actually fasted, how would it have been different? So, of course, we can't go back because that's not the test that they did. That's not the experiment.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, this is interesting. Actually, yesterday, I was interviewed-- This is always so surreal to me, Gin. There's this guy named Bill Tancer. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he actually has a CGM company, and he'd reached out to me because he wanted to work with me on some stuff. He invited me onto his podcast. It was so fun because it's so like weird to me because he had read my book. He actually read my book like all of it, and with asking me specific questions about it. It's very surreal to me still to like, "Oh, a New York Times bestselling author reads my book and wants to ask me questions about it specifically?" So, it was really fun. But the reason I'm bringing it up was, one of the things he asked me about from the book was, I discussed in the book, so, it was the 2015 personalized nutrition by prediction of glycemic responses, and this is something that I know Gin and I discussed this study on the show before, but I reread it because he had mentioned that he wanted to talk about it. I was like, "Oh, I better reread it."

It's the one where they put people on CGM, it was 800 people, and they measured their responses to a total of 46,898 meals. They didn't just look at the CGM, the blood sugar response, they also looked at the gut microbiome, they looked at their blood markers, their activity levels, a lot of other factors, and this was the one where they found that-- and I'm bringing it up because she was mentioning-- We're talking about the glycemic index. Basically, it dismantled the idea of the glycemic index, because people had completely different responses to all different foods. So, while there was a trend, so when you put all the foods on a chart and see in general which ones create a higher glycemic response, it does match up with a glycemic index. There's still massive variability.

Gin Stephens: Do you know how they came up with the glycemic index? They tested 10 people from, the food and averaged it. That is like, it's ridiculous. It is ri-diculous. Yeah, the glycemic index is just-- it would be like if we gave everyone a height index and said, "All right, you are 5'5" because that's the average height for a woman, 5'5". So, you're 5'5". You'd be like, "But I'm not 5'5", I'm 5'2." They're like, "I'm sorry, but we averaged the height together. You are 5'5"." That is how they did the glycemic index. Everyone's 5'5".

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny. Yeah, and so they did find that within the individual, people react similarly. So, if you have a piece of bread on one day and then piece of bread on another day, you're probably going to react the same, but another person might react completely differently to bread. Actually, I think there was some comment in the study about how every single food, I think, had almost the entire span of responses. So, I mean, that's--

Gin Stephens: It really is astonishing. For example, ice cream was one of the foods they talked about. They said that some people reacted really poorly to ice cream, some reacted really well. You're like, "Well, that sounds nuts." I am someone who reacts really well to ice cream and I can eat ice cream and feel great. I can open my window with ice cream. Ice cream does not give me a weird, whatever. Cake, different. Totally different. But it's fascinating. I can eat bread, no problem. But cookies? No. So, it really is just different.

Melanie Avalon: And it likely involves-- like they say in this study, it's so many factors, not just the food.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Potatoes, they are great for my body. I can eat a potato and feel perfect. But not everybody can.

Melanie Avalon: That's just something to keep in mind.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Rebecca. The subject is: "Eating red meat regularly." "Hi, Gin and Melanie. First, I just want to quickly say that I cannot thank you both enough for completely changing my life. I've been IFing for two years, and it has improved my life in so many ways. Not only did I lose 67 pounds, but I've also seen major improvements in my mental health, my relationship with food, and my body, and the chronic pain I have from a previous injury. So, I just want you to know that you ladies are truly helping people and making a difference in so many lives by putting this important information out in the world. You two are amazing and I will be forever grateful." Oh, thank you, Rebecca. 67 pounds that is amazing.

"All right. Okay, on to my question. As you know, there is a pretty widespread stigma against red meat. Most people or doctors think it is detrimental to your health and should not be eating frequently. They say, it will cause cancer, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, etc. So, of course, these scary thoughts are always in the back of my mind. I now exclusively get all my meat from ButcherBox. Thank you for the rec, by the way. So, I know the meat I am consuming is high quality. Over the past year, my beef consumption has significantly increased to the point that it has become a staple in my diet. I eat mainly whole foods and try to focus on fruits, vegetables, and meats but I don't restrict any particular food or food group. However, I find myself no longer gravitating towards chicken or fish, never really was a fan of pork, which means that pretty much all of the meat I consume is now ButcherBox beef. I'm definitely eating at least a few servings of red meat five to six days of the week.

Is this really bad for my health? Should I start to force myself to eat different types of protein even though, it's not really what I want or crave? I've tried googling whether this is okay and pretty much everything that comes up says no. But the articles are almost always referring to conventionally farmed or processed red meat. I know there are tons of studies that show eating lots of red meat and processed meat can cause a variety of health issues. But what about grass-fed, grass-finished beef? Are there the same increased health risks from eating that too? I feel good doing what I'm doing but I would change it if it meant that I was harming my body. What do you think about this topic? I'd love to hear your thoughts because I really value your input. Sending positive vibes your way. Rebecca."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Rebecca. Well, this was a fantastic question and I'm so happy that you're enjoying ButcherBox and I promise I did not plan this. ButcherBox is actually a sponsor on this episode and I just checked the offer they have right now is for grass-fed, grass-finished steaks for free. So, that's perfect. If you want those, if you want to join Rebecca, listen to the ad in this episode for ButcherBox. The link is butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and that will give you the offer right now is free New York strip steaks for a year, which they've never actually done that before. So, that's huge and those are grass fed, grass finished, but again, details are in the ad that runs on this show. So, for your question, I have so many thoughts. I think about this so much.

Gin Stephens: I knew that you would.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I will just put it out there. I do think it is very important when you are contemplating a topic, especially related to health, to take in all different perspectives on the topic. It's very easy to get into an echo chamber. That said, I think one of the issues that can make this convoluted and confusing for people is that the two sides to approach on this, if we want to look at warring sides, it would be the pro-meat and then it would be the anti-meat. One of the issues is I think there is especially in a lot of the vegan literature or vegan voices, there's a morality clause that comes in where I think sometimes things get lost in the practical science, the health implications that I think often lead to more of a bias. So, I think that's really important to keep in mind when you are reading all the different perspectives because I do think you should read all the different perspectives.

All of that said, the best source of information I have found that I do not believe is biased that I think has been so helpful is Robb Wolf's book Sacred Cow. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. We recently had Robb on this show, but that was an episode all on electrolytes. I'll put a link to it anyways, but we didn't talk about this. But I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice. Actually, his second episode with me aired yesterday. But my first episode I did with him was all about this. So, I'll put a link to that as well. What I really liked about his book and what I learned in it is, he talks about the health benefits and the huge importance of the role of meat in our diets for health. I do think some people can thrive on a vegan diet. I think it's a very small percentage of people. It's the people who have the gut microbiome that can really handle that and can really create all the nutrition that they need. Most people's gut microbiomes aren't up to par for that and I don't know that dietary choices alone given your state can convert you to a microbiome that would long term subsist on that. So, basically, I do think nutrition wise that there's a huge important role for meat in most people's diets.

When it comes down to the actual type of meat, red meat versus fish versus chicken, Robb actually talks about this in his book the environmental impacts. I know she wasn't really asked me about the environmental impacts but he does talk about the environmental impacts of these different animals and dismantles some of the myths surrounding that about what is actually more sustainable. I do a lot of research on the different meats and how they affect our body. I do think, though, Rebecca, what your intuition about gravitating to what you are craving or what speaks to you is probably really telling, and I think, especially if you're not following-- because I think when we follow a processed diet or standard American diet, it can be harder to discern what our bodies actually need. But when you follow a more whole foods based diet that it can be easier to really hear your body signals about which protein source your body needs at that time.

I think, especially with red meat, it's something where people might need more of it at sometimes rather than other times. Especially women, they might be craving it because of the iron content and women often can become anemic. I mean men can too, but it's more common with women. If you're feeling good on the red meat and you're not craving chicken or fish, I wouldn't stress about it. I wouldn't try to convince yourself into eating not red meat, and chicken, and fish because you think that's what you "should" be eating. Especially, if you're eating this grass fed, grass finished, sustainably raised from ButcherBox that one of the things about ButcherBox is so amazing is they work really hard to support the sustainability and the health of the farmers, of the farming system, of our planet. It's just really, really wonderful what they're doing.

All of that said, to make things a little bit more complicated, I personally believe there is an incredible benefit nutrition wise to grass fed, grass finished over conventional beef. That said, Robb Wolf makes the case in Sacred Cow that there's not much difference at all, that the nutrition is actually pretty similar and that there's not a huge difference there. I do wonder a lot about the role of toxins in conventional agriculture. I think that might be playing a big role.

Gin Stephens: 100%, I agree with you.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really hesitant about that aspect of it. He doesn't seem to think it's that big of a deal in the book, but I think it probably is. So, my takeaway is that the best of the best is obviously the grass-fed, grass-finished beef. I think it's giving you nutrition and I would not succumb to the pressure to think that you don't have to eat it or that you need to eat white meat instead.

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting that he says that because I just read the part of the book for Clean(ish) where I talk about grass-fed, grass-finished beef and why it matters. I just read it yesterday, I think. Cows are not supposed to have grain. Their bodies are not designed to digest it, it makes them unhealthy. Then, they have to have all that medicine, because they're now sick from eating the grain. There's no part of that that is good, except that the beef tastes great. It's like fattier, but it's huge. I can't understand how he looked into all that and came to the conclusion that it didn't matter.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it was so much that it 100% didn't matter but it was like in the grand scheme of things just from a pure nutrition standpoint that there wasn't that much of a difference and I'd have to reread.

Gin Stephens: Well, it does have a better-- I think, a more favorable omega profile?

Melanie Avalon: That's something I've been saying historically, and I say it in my book, and I believe it. His thoughts on it are that it's not that big of a difference. If you're looking at it for omegas, it's not a huge difference, it's not a huge source comparatively to something like the fish side of things.

Gin Stephens: I guess, the real issue really, really is that because the cows are sick, because they're not fed in a way that their bodies are meant to be eating, they're eating the grains, their stomach is not designed to process those grains, so they have to have all the medication, the antibiotics, and then that residue is in the meat.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I'm very concerned about. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I mean it's huge. That is a huge factor. Do we want to get antibiotic residues from our meat? No.

Melanie Avalon: I personally think, it's huge.

Gin Stephens: I do, too. I've really come across to this thinking. I didn't used to think it mattered as much till I really looked into it. The more I looked into it, the more I realized it mattered.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I asked him about this. I'm going to have to revisit the transcript and see what his response was to that specifically. That's why I just really, really love something like ButcherBox, for example because they're really addressing this issue. Also, I think, a lot of the demonization of meat is about things like saturated fat and stuff like that. I just want to put out there because I'm haunted by the saturated fat question, actually. I do think a huge part of the studies and the literature on saturated fat and its health benefits are two things. One, it's looking at saturated fat as an isolated mechanism of action rather than in the context of an entire diet. So, how does saturated fatty acids on a cell affect insulin sensitivity or how does fatty acid levels in the bloodstream affect things, and then saying that's automatically the same, it's like the saturated fat that you eat, there's also the whole history of why saturated fat became demonized for heart disease and things like that, and it goes back to Ancel Keys, and there's a lot of controversy around his research, and was there cherry picking?

I think there's a lot of debate. I do think there are probably issues for a lot of people with saturated fat, especially too much saturated fat, especially today's-- Oh, that was it. I think saturated fat in the context of a processed diet, or a high carb diet, or a modern diet is a problem. But in a holistic, whole foods based diet, I think it's much less of a problem, if it even is a problem. So, I said a lot, Gin.

Gin Stephens: You did say a lot. I was just going to say, Rebecca, trust yourself. I have also gravitated really away from chicken because I just realized I don't love it, or crave it, or really want it. But beef, when I want to eat beef, I really am-- Now, I'm craving it right now. I'm pretty sure there's going to be beef in my day today. [laughs] And after, I'm like, "Ooh, I just really need some beef." So, listen to your body. You're getting in tune with your body, and how you feel when you eat certain foods, and I think your body is boss.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of this goes back to a study that was sensationalized in the media about the WHO's carcinogenic classification of various meats, and red meat, and processed meat. If you look at actually what was found in the study and the risk factors, it was grossly misinterpreted by the media. Because the headlines were things like, "Red meat is the same as smoking every day" or something like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I remember those.

Gin Stephens: It's just that's not what it found at all. Processed meat was a problem, red meat was like-- I have to look at it again. It was a higher level than the other meats but when you looked at the actual meaning of interpreting the stats in the data, it was not at all what it was made out to be. So, that is something to keep in mind. I think pretty sure Robb talks about that in Sacred Cow, pretty sure Gary talks about it in Case for Keto. I'll put links to all of that but that was a lot.

Hi, friends. Okay, we have thrilling news about Joovv. They have new devices and we have a discount. Yes, a discount, no longer a free gift, a discount. As you guys know, there are a few non-negotiables in my personal daily routine. I focus on what and when I eat every single day. And I also focus on my daily dose of healthy light through Joovv’s red light therapy devices. Guys, I use my Joovv all the time. Red light therapy is one of the most effective health modalities you can use in your home. I've personally seen so many health benefits, I find it incredible for regulating my circadian rhythm, helping my mood, boosting my thyroid, smoothing my skin, and I've also used it on multiple occasions for targeted pain relief. Anyone who's familiar with red light therapy, pretty much knows that Joovv is the leading brand. They pioneered this technology, and they were the first ones to isolate red and near-infrared light and make it accessible and affordable for in-home use. Since then, they've remained the most innovative, forward-thinking light therapy brands out there.

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Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Phoebe. The subject is "Clean beauty brands" and she says, "Hi, both. I have been listening to your podcast since March of 2020 at the beginning of lockdown. I feel I have learnt so much over the past year and a half." I love the word 'learnt.' It's very British.

Melanie Avalon: Do we say learnt?

Gin Stephens: We say learned. Learned. They say learnt. She said, "I have a question on clean beauty. Having heard both of your rave reviews about Beautycounter, I am desperate to use their products. However, I am based in London, England, and they don't have any stockists here, nor do they ship internationally. I know you've said that Europe has stricter rules on banning chemicals but a lot of the brands I have seen on sale in Whole Foods and similar health stores have compounds in them that are ranked poorly in the EWG Healthy Living app. Could you please recommend any comparable internationally available brands for beauty products and makeup? Thank you in advance for all you do. I look forward to your podcasts every week. Kind regards. Phoebe."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Phoebe. This is a great question. So, I will put a resource out for you. You can join my Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare Facebook group. That will be a great place to talk about this because we have a lot of members now. I think we have almost 2,000 members. People share a lot of reviews, and thoughts, and there are a lot of international people. So, that'd be a great place to discuss it there. Because I'm not personally familiar with any brands that are up to Beautycounter standard. It sounds like this is what you're doing already. You're looking things up on the EWG but that would be the resource to use for sure. So, for listeners, the EWG, they basically look at all of the ingredients and products and they rank them for toxicity so you can see how potentially toxic are your products on the shelves.

The thing that is so amazing about Beautycounter, for example is, you can look at the toxicity. So, that's one thing. But then beyond that, there are things like heavy metals, for example, and that's huge, huge, huge to me, and that's not going to be something that's going to be on the EWG. Like lipstick, for example, there's this one study that they did, I think it was in the-- I don't know how long ago it was. It was a few years ago, but they looked at so many makeup brands. It was like hundred something and every single one had lead in it, and most of them had really high levels, and that's something that you're not even going to see on the EWG. So, an amazing thing about Beautycounter they test everything six times for heavy metals. So, that's huge. I don't know if there are any international brands that do that as well but your best bet, I guess would be continuing to look on the EWG and trying to find things that are that are rated green. I'm sorry though that Beatycounter is not available internationally. I'm hoping someday that they will. Right now, it's just the US and Canada. I feel like it was not very helpful. But yeah, my resources are to keep looking on the EWG, and to join my Facebook group, and ask there.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I think that's great. Yeah, the EWG Healthy Living app is a great resource but I don't know about clean beauty brands in Europe either or England.

Melanie Avalon: It is true though about the higher standard. It also just speaks to the sad state of the US with all this because Europe has banned thousands of compounds in conventional skincare and makeup because they can be endocrine disruptors, meaning they mess with your hormones or obesogens, which actually literally cause your body to store and gain weight, and even carcinogens which are linked to cancer, and the US has only been at around a dozen, which is just really shocking. Then on top of that, there's essentially no regulations. So, even if there were products on the shelves that were found to be actually toxic, and this has happened. It happened, I don't remember when, but there was this whole thing where there were these products at Claire's that were found to be tainted with I think-- it was asbestos tainted with something, and nothing was done about it. There's really no regulation. It's really shocking. But yes, Europe does have stricter standards. So, that is nice because that will be a little bit on your side.

Gin Stephens: Yep, and all this is also in Clean(ish) which is available for preorder. So, [laughs] if you haven't preordered it yet, go ahead and preorder it wherever books are sold. But yeah, I talk all about clean beauty and why it's so important, and about grass-fed, grass-finished beef, and all the things. So, I can't wait for you to get a copy of the book, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. Do I get one soon?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We've got to get you on the list. We've got to get you-- Yep, yep. We got to get you a copy. I would like you to get a better copy. Right now, they're sending out the early reader copies and it's the ones with the typos and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay.

Gin Stephens: Can you wait till actual the real book comes out or do you want an early reader copy? I could get you an early reader copy now. Not till February, right?

Melanie Avalon: I think so.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, you've got time.

Melanie Avalon: Can I get it by January?

Gin Stephens: Or, January 4th is when it comes out.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Perfect.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Yay, anyway, all this is in there and why it matters, and how you can develop your own definition of Clean(ish) so that you change up what feels right to you.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I feel like we've come so far. We're on similar wavelengths about all the things.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's true. The more you learn about it, the better you feel. The more changes you make, you realize it matters.

Melanie Avalon: The more I study hormones, I've been interviewing a lot of hormone doctors recently, those are just signals affecting everything in our body, and the factors that affect them, it's our environment and our lifestyle. I mean it's our food, obviously, and you can help them with fasting but when you're exposing your body to compounds every day that are messing with your hormones, I just think the effects are just so not appreciated.

Gin Stephens: The part that was so striking to me is how different the world is now than it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, because basically, our body burdens are just so much greater. We didn't have all this decades ago. So, we're starting off with a worse-- babies are born with all these chemicals and their cord blood.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Ladies, if you're going to have children someday, when you give birth, a huge part of your toxic burden goes into the baby. I was actually listening to an interview this week, and they were talking about how one of the problems with these compounds is that the problem is actually that they're not so toxic that they outright cause cancer right away. If they did, they wouldn't be there. But they're not so toxic that they kill yourself right away, but it's that slow, accumulating damage.

Gin Stephens: Right. They bioaccumulate and they also work together in ways that are unexpected and not even understood because they don't study these chemicals together. They studied a little bit in isolation, like if you just had this, and "Oh, it's fine." But that's not the real world, that's not your body. It ends up being a toxic soup.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so cancer-causing compounds, there are not things that are so toxic that they just kill a cell because if that was the case you wouldn't get the cancer. Because in a way, they would get rid of themselves, because they would just kill whatever they're killing and be gone, but the fact that our cells can still survive in their presence, it's like a slow draining, it forces ourselves to adapt. That's what when I interviewed Dr. Jason Fung. He was saying, that's what makes carcinogens carcinogens is that they damage the cells just enough that the cells have to go rogue and form their own metabolism, their own state. They get very selfish in a way. So, in order to survive in the face of these carcinogens, they have to just basically defy living in a happy relationship with the rest of your body cells, and that's basically what cancer is. That was such a mind-blowing moment for me.

Gin Stephens: Wow. Yeah. But anyway, we put less in. So, clean beauty, you're putting less in, you are lowering your toxic load, and that is why it matters. You don't have to freak out because you're going to go through life and get exposed to things, but you can control a lot of things and just taking control of what you can and letting go of what you can't.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I love that. Yep. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can follow me on Instagram, have a blue check?

Gin Stephens: I do not.

Melanie Avalon: But you will probably soon, I'm assuming.

Gin Stephens: I don’t know. I'm not even trying.

Melanie Avalon: Well, in any case, we're both on Instagram. I'm @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show, super helpful because we mentioned so many things, those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode241. Yeah, you can get all the stuff that we like and ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right, I think that is all of the things.

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Nov 21

Episode 240: Moving To Maintenance Mode, Brain Health, Alzheimer’s, Suppository Supplements, Cheese, Veganism, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #108 - Dean & Ayesha Sherzai

Welcome to Episode 240 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get FREE NY Strip steaks for a YEAR!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Stay Up To Date With All The News And Pre-Order Info About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase!

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Goal Weight

Listener Q&A: Andrea - Health Benefits

The End of Alzheimer's: The First Program to Prevent and Reverse Cognitive Decline

Go To joinzoe.com And Get 10% Off The Zoe Program With The Coupon Code Melanieavalon10

Listener Q&A: Paula - Melatonin and so many other Qs

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #12 - Dr. John Lieurance

Use The Code MELANIEAVALON At MelanieAvalon.Com/SleepRemedy For 10% Off!!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 240 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. Yes, free steaks for a year. So, the holidays are upon us and I don't know about you, but when I think about holidays, I often think food and then the second thing I often think is, "Hmm, I wonder what will be the quality of all of the meat and seafood at all of the family gatherings." It can definitely seem intimidating and expensive to get high quality meat that you can trust. Thankfully, there is an easy solution. It's a company I've been a fan of for years and that is ButcherBox. They are an incredible company that takes out the middleman of the grocery store to directly connect customers to farmers. They vet these farmers, they find the farmers that truly support the health of the animals, the environment, and ultimately your health, so that you can finally get meat of the highest standards 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, and more. And trust me, the seafood industry is sketchy. ButcherBox goes to great lengths for transparency and sustainability, so you can truly feel good about what you're eating. I read Dr. Robert Lustig's book, Metabolical and was blown away by the shocking statistics of fraud in the seafood industry.

But back to meat, ButcherBox' meat is delicious. Each box contains eight to 14 pounds of meat depending on your box type. It's packed fresh and shipped frozen for your convenience. You can choose a curated box or customize it to get exactly what you want, and its shipped straight to your door, and it tastes delicious. The ButcherBox steaks are honestly some of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life. My dad is a huge spaghetti fan and he remarked that the ground beef was the best ground beef he had ever had. My brother reported back about the porkchops and the bacon. Basically, this stuff is delicious. And this holiday, ButcherBox has an incredible deal. They have never done this before ever and it won't last forever. They're actually giving new members free New York strip steaks for a year until November 30th, 2021, you can get two delicious 100% grass-fed New York strip steaks for free in every box for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to sign up. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast to receive this limited time offer of free grass-fed, grass-finished New York strip steaks for a year. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. And one more thing before we jump in.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead, and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients, to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future, like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 240 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing all right. I have a little bit of a cold. So, I'm drinking my hot water and trying not to cough.

Melanie Avalon: So, oh, first of all, I'm sorry. You have a cold. That is never fun. Although, it's appropriate. The weather changed, just kind of a cliche. It got cold and then you got a cold.

Gin Stephens: It sure did. It absolutely got cold. You know how I feel about that?

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I was so happy. I'm like prancing around outside. It's only been cold a few days and I've already gotten the comments of, "Aren't you cold?" I'm like. "Oh, yes, I am. But I love it." Because I wear the same like summer clothes.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's hilarious. Not me. Not me. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to modify your fasting window for your cold?

Gin Stephens: No. If anything, I might fast a little more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Is this a hungry cold or not hungry cold?

Gin Stephens: It's not a hungry cold. No. Chad was like "Do you want some orange juice and I was like, no, my window is not open. I don't want to start with orange juice right now." I don't feel that bad. I'm just tired. I have no energy. It's like just very low energy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I hope you feel better.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, thank you. I don't get sick very often. So, it's so weird. It always surprises me. I'm like, "What's happening? Why is this happening?" But I usually kick it pretty fast.

Melanie Avalon: Well. I will send 'kick it fast' vibes to you.

Gin Stephens: Thank you. I have to read my audio book next week in Atlanta. So, I cannot have a weird voice. So, I've got two days to get completely better.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I hope you get completely better because I really want to meet you.

Gin Stephens: I know. We're going to meet. That's so exciting.

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, this was a complete coincidence that Gin just happens to be in Atlanta over my birthday. What are the odds? I've been researching where you're staying Gin and I found some fun places.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good. Yay. It's near Emory. I do know that.

Melanie Avalon: You're going to be in Decatur, right?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But it's near Emory. I looked at the map and there was Emory University was--looked close.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. Yeah. And if we do meet on a Monday, there's one place I really want to go. It's on like the list of like best restaurants in Atlanta and it's always on that list.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. I like the sound of that.

Melanie Avalon: But it's not open on Mondays. But there're two other really, really cool places that are open on Mondays. They would have wine, and food, and a bar. So, this might happen assuming you feel better.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm going to feel better because I'm willing it to happen. Did I tell you I'm doing better with wine all of a sudden?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? No.

Gin Stephens: Like my sleep has gotten better. I don't know what it is. Maybe, it's the BiOptimizers magnesium finally kicking in.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. Very nice. That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I had an exciting moment.

Gin Stephens: What was your exciting moment?

Melanie Avalon: On Halloween, while not taking part in festivities, I actually was doing bowel prep because I had a PillCam.

Gin Stephens: That was not what I was expecting that to go. [laughs] On Halloween, it was not the festivities that bowel prep came out of nowhere. I'm like, "Pom, pom, pom."

Melanie Avalon: I do. Because I did a PillCam on Monday. I had to be up early. So, I had to do a laxative prep. The modern world we live in, it's so crazy like swallowing a camera. But in any case, so, I was on my couch lamenting my Halloween activities, and was just looking at Instagram, and then realized, I'm verified.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I saw that. Yep. Very exciting. So exciting. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. I feel like I've come so far. Like just the other day, I was still scared of Instagram, but now, I'm scared with a blue check.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm so happy. So, best Halloween ever.

Gin Stephens: I'm debating Instagram. Like I'm trying to decide--

Melanie Avalon: You're debating if you want to do it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, there's like, like what am I trying to do there? I went to this conference in Arizona and I went to a session about upping your Instagram game, and people pay people to help them do it, and they were talking about engagement scores and whatever. I'm like, "Do I really want to do all that?" I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I have an Instagram manager. Did you know that?

Gin Stephens: I did know that. You told me. That just doesn't feel like me. I don't know. But everybody's doing it, but it doesn't feel like me. So, I'm like, I'm on the fence.

Melanie Avalon: I feel maybe you should get my manager. Because he could like-- he could help you.

Gin Stephens: But see, I don't know if I want to. That's my thing. I left Facebook and I'm also going to just reject Instagram and just be like, "That is not for me." I love that you're verified. I don't want to put a sculpture on that. Because I know that's exciting. I'm not trying to wah, wah that. It's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's funny. We're just always complete opposites.

Gin Stephens: Well, we are. I'm just trying to figure out, I like to just share on Instagram, "Here's my cat." I said that before, but I'm not kidding. I don't have to think about it.

Melanie Avalon: For me it's really helpful for my audience. All the content I generate, it's really important vessel for my personal platform.

Gin Stephens: And that is-- you just nailed it. I don't know that I want to generate content for an audience. Does that make sense? That's what I'm struggling with. Do I want to generate content for an audience? I was reading something, when we were moving our platform, again, from the one to the new-new platform. We looked at several, and one of them, Mighty Networks. We did not go with Mighty Networks, but they sent out something I'm on their email list now, and it was talking about growing an audience versus growing a community, and that gave me a moment of clarity. I'm not saying that one is bad and one is good. I'm absolutely not saying that growing an audience is a bad thing to do or that everyone should be growing a community. But when I read that, I was, "That just feels like me." You know what I mean? I like leaving Facebook for example. I had an audience of almost 500,000 people on Facebook. But I was, "I'm out of here," and that sounds crazy.

Melanie Avalon: I definitely think mindset community.

Gin Stephens: Right. I get it.

Melanie Avalon: People in the audience become part of the community if they want to.

Gin Stephens: I'm not trying to come across as it's bad, because it's not. But I'm just trying to force myself into it and it doesn't feel authentic to me. Does that make sense? I'm trying so hard to like, I went to that session. I'm like, "I got t up my Instagram game." Then I'm like, "Wait, why? It doesn't resonate with me." It's an awesome platform. I mean, I know that.

Melanie Avalon: One of the things that makes me feel alive is creating content. So, it's doing what I love engaging with the community. It's everything that I love minus I can't stand selfies and I'm very insecure.

Gin Stephens: Well, you're doing great at those. I think that you just nailed it. I don't want to create content. I just want to talk to people. I just want to troubleshoot, and talk to them, and how you're doing, and what you do. I don't want to create content. That feels like stress to me. The whole idea that I have to create content and post it in a special way makes me feel freaked out.

Melanie Avalon: So, if you had a manager, he could create content for you based on the content you're creating. So, you're creating episodes right now, you're already creating content. If you had a manager, he could create snippets from that.

Gin Stephens: Turn that content.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. He could turn that content into content, and then you could just get on casually because you both get on it. You could still get on it. You could interact with comments, and you could do what you like to do, which is interacting with the community, and you can still post about your cats. I'm not trying to convince you into it.

Gin Stephens: A happy medium.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you wanted to do it, I think there's a way you could do it that wouldn't be taxing or stressful, but it would allow your part of the community that exists on Instagram to be able to connect with you there.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Because I know there is. I know there are definitely people on Instagram that I enjoy connecting with, but it's just the idea. I don't have to think about it. Like, "Here's my dinner, here's my screen porch, here's the beach, here's the starfish," those types of things. That's not content anybody needs. That's just-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: Well, the thing is-- the thing is, I think people like Instagram because it is like a snapshot into your daily life. So, you can have on the one hand the content that's the content that we just mentioned. So, fasting related stuff or stuff from your show, so people would tune in to your Instagram for that. But then the cool thing about Instagram is that, I just said, it's your daily life. The stuff that you just mentioned like people who like you, people who follow you because they're so interested in you. That's what they want to see is like--

Gin Stephens: Like what you're doing?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm really proud of you, excited, that was a goal and you accomplished it, and it's huge, and it's hard to do.

Melanie Avalon: It's really hard to do. I've had so many people reach out to me and be like, "How did you do this?" I'm saying like, "I've been Trying to do it for so long." I'm very grateful. It makes me really happy. [giggles] Can I tell you one other really quick story before we jump in?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I've been dying to interview Dom D'Agostino. He's the ketone guy, researcher, and I've been dying to interview him for so long. So, one of my friends, actually, a guest from the show has been saying that he would introduce me to Dom for like months, but he never did. Then, I was talking to another friend from my other show, when I say the show, it's the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I was talking to another friend from it, and he randomly brought up Dom, and I told him I was, "Oh, I've been really wanting to interview Dom." He's like, "Oh, I'll introduce you."

So, then, the next day, at the almost the exact same time like an hour apart, both of them emailed Dom about me. It was almost the exact same email. It was, "Dom, I want you to meet my friend, Melanie Avalon. She's an amazing podcaster. You should be on her show." So, he got hit with both of those emails back-to-back. He's probably, "Why is everybody throwing Melanie Avalon at me?" But point is, he's coming on the show now.

Gin Stephens: Yay. Well, congratulations. I know you'll enjoy that. Lots to celebrate.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, if anybody has questions specifically about ketones, he is the ketone guy. So, feel free to email those. Then one more announcement I want to make before we jump in. So, when this comes out, I think my supplement-- my serrapeptase supplement will have, I think, it'll be in pre-orders. I'm trying to finalize the date right now, but it's probably going to be mid-November that the pre-order went live. So, I'm like debating what links I should put out there. It probably will be available for sale if the pre-orders are not sold out, because I anticipate, I don't know, I think they might sell out pretty fast. If you haven't pre-ordered yet, go to avalonx.com That's A-V-A-L-O-N-X dotcom, and you should be able to pre-order or order there. And you can also get on my email list for it. That's melanieavalon.com/serrapeptase. S-E-R-R-A-P-E-P-T-A-S-E. And that is going to be the ongoing email list for information. So, you can get on that.

But long story short, a lot of our audience take serrapeptase, and it's an enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in a fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream, it breaks down residual protein buildups that your body might be reacting to. So, it can help you with things like inflammation and allergies. Studies have shown that it can reduce cholesterol, and there's even been studies on it reducing amyloid plaque, and fibroids, and it's just really, really cool. So, November is like my month. Verified, birthday, supplement.

Gin Stephens: So exciting. So much to celebrate.

Melanie Avalon: That's just all about me. But how are you besides being sick?

Gin Stephens: You gave me some Instagram coaching. So, that was good.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, true, true, true.

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Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to get things started, we have a question from Jennifer. The subject is: 'goal weight.' Jennifer says, "Hi, ladies. I've been doing IF 16:8 for about four and a half months now. It has been such a great lifestyle for me, easy to do, and it's brought me many benefits. Over that time, I have lost 20 pounds and I am now within two pounds of my goal weight. I love listening to your podcast, it's great to have a reliable source of info. So, I thought I would turn to you with my question. How do I move to maintenance when I reach my goal? Do I just open my window a bit more? If so, what increments would you recommend and how long do you think I should remain at that new window while monitoring my weight to see if I continue to lose, maintain, or start to gain? I appreciate your time and expertise," Jennifer.

Gin Stephens: All right. That's a great question. I remember, 2009, I was struggling with my weight and I was doing some crazy diet. I think it was the HCG diet. I was almost at my goal and my stepmother said, I was like, "I'm almost at my goal. So exciting. I'll be there." She said, "Yeah, but it's not the losing the tart. It's the maintaining." I was like, "Wah, wah." [laughs] such a downer thing to hear. But Jennifer, intermittent fasting is not like that. It's so much easier to maintain with intermittent fasting. So, as far as moving to maintenance, your body is really going to decide when you're at maintenance. Your goal is to have a window that feels good where you're eating until you're satisfied, and that might still be the same window you're doing right now.

If you're doing 16:8, and it feels great for you, I wouldn't have a longer window than eight hours, probably. You may find that your body actually continues to refine itself over time and get a little smaller, like you might still burn a little fat, but you might also be hungrier. So, that's what happened for me. When my body decided that it didn't want to lose any more fat, it ramped up my appetite a little bit. I know it sounds all wacky to say that you'll just know, but you will. If you're a little hungrier, eat a little bit more that day, and just really listen to your body. But it's just like riding a bike every day. You just ride that bike every day and there you go.

Now, if you had a shorter window than 16:8, maybe you were doing something like 21:3. I might say, "Hey, loosen up that window a little bit." But for 16:8, I feel like I wouldn't change a thing there. As far as monitoring your weight, I would adjust what you do in your window versus changing that window, since it's a 16:8. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I was just reflecting on my approach to intermittent fasting ever since I started which was forever ago. When did I start, 2010? I should have had a decade anniversary. I did a one meal a day from day one. I never really changed that. I think the thing that I did change was in the beginning, I was actively making sure that I fasted a minimum amount of hours, and then, as I became more comfortable with it, I just embraced a general evening window without counting anything. But what you just said, Gin about looking at what you're eating rather than the fasting window per se, that's what resonates with me.

The interesting thing is, I didn't do it, and I encourage other people as well not to do it based on some arbitrary goal number. So, it's not like I'm doing my fasting window. I'm doing my eating and then when I hit this number, boom. I'm in maintenance and now, I'm not losing anymore.

Gin Stephens: You want to stay at that number, right? There's not going to be a magic number. It's going to be more of like a maintenance range. It might even be a five-pound range. You might already be in it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. If you think about it, so, your body doesn't think in terms of a scale number. So, let's say you're going to this special number and you're doing a certain window, and you're eating a certain way, and then you hit that number. Your body's not like, "Oh, I hit this number. Now, I need to change around to maintain this number." I think it should always be intuitive. You can just keep eating the way you're eating. It might be that you don't even have to change anything. That's very likely that a lot of people find that they just naturally, their body reaches a new weight that it's happy at, and then, you just maintain at that weight without having to consciously make any decisions. What's interesting is, because it could go two ways. It could go where people find that they actually are losing too much weight maybe, and then, what they need to do is actually intuitively eat more. Or, it can be this opposite, where you're maintaining, and you're trying to not gain back the weight. But I think from our experience, that's not as common if you're in an intuitive relationship with how you're eating and your window.

Gin Stephens: It's basically not necessarily what you think it is. Because every other "diet," that's really how it was. You got to a goal, then you had to stay at that goal, and it was all about that number. But intermittent fasting is so different and you'll really see once you just start intuitively, living at maintenance. It just is so different than anything else. If you start having window creep and your honesty pants get a little tight, your window needs to get a little tighter for a while. It's really easy for me to do that over the years. I've certainly gone up and down within a range. Of course, I don't weigh and haven't weighed for years. So, for me, I don't know what the numbers doing. But my honesty pants tell me, when my jeans get a little tight, I know it's time to tighten up my window. So, it'll happen. Don't be afraid of it and don't be afraid if your pants do get tight. That doesn't mean you failed anything. It just means, "All right, time to get a little back to it."

Melanie Avalon: I think that question too, Jennifer, I pulled it from-- I think it's a really old question. But we have a list of questions from listeners since, I mean, for years. So, this question might have been a few years old. But I feel like we haven't addressed that in a while.

Gin Stephens: No, we haven't. So, that was a great question. Who knows what Jennifer is doing now? She may be at her goal and maintained it for three years. If so, Jennifer, if that sounds like you, write back in and say, "Yes, I wrote that three years ago, and I've been maintaining," and [laughs] we would love to hear.

Melanie Avalon: Please do.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Andrea and the subject is 'health benefits.' She says, "Hey, girls. So happy with this way of life. I started in May 2021 and quickly lost the weight I wanted. Above and beyond that, I had this other list of health concerns that was nagging me. Aches and pains, inflammation, aging/longevity, and HGH, just human growth hormone/hormones to name a few. And IF was the answer for that list as well. It's an explosion of wins." I love that, by the way.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too.

Gin Stephens: "An explosion of wins." I just had to say it again. "Through the education of your books and podcast, I've learned that IF is a beneficial lifestyle for preventing Alzheimer's through fasting/autophagy, is MADF, and that's Modified Alternate Daily Fasting," and that's like when you do alternate daily fasting with instead of a full fast like for 36 hours, you have that 500-calorie meal on the down day, people have started calling that Modified Alternate Daily Fasting. They're technically, it's just alternate daily fasting. Some of the Facebook moderators are irritated by the addition of the M because we called it just ADF forever. Because the people who researched it, just called it ADF forever, and then all of a sudden, the M came in, I'm not really sure. Anyway, that's what that is if anybody sees it. I'm not irritated by it, but it's just funny.

MADF is when you have the 500-calorie meal on a down day, and then "regular ADF" would be if you have a full fast. But technically, they both can be considered ADF. But MADF always means 500-calorie meal. All right, so she says, "Is MADF i.e., 5:2 a better strategy for brain health." And technically, MADF wouldn't mean 5:2 necessarily. True ADF is every other day. But 4:3 and 5:2 are in that ADF umbrella because you're having down days and up days. Probably, a lot of people don't do real 5:2 because real 5:2 is having two down days and five up days. So, it's like five days of "eating normally" and then two, if you're doing regular 5:2 the way it was written originally, you'd have 500-calorie days. It's like 5:2 originally was 500-calorie days. So, that's not modified. That was just how it was. Or you could do two full fasts and then five eat regularly days. But for people who have been doing intermittent fasting for a while, I can't imagine having five "regular eating days" in a week. Can you Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Not at all.

Gin Stephens: Not at all. So, anyway, I usually don't stop in the middle of a question and start answering things, but I had to really get into that MADF. All right. So, she says, "Is MADF, a better strategy for brain health? What else should I consider? Dietary approach, ZOE, anything from the stuff We Like list? In addition, please recommend any books, podcasts, etc., forever fasting," Andrea. I love that too, Andrea. Forever fasting explosion of wins. When we say is something "a better strategy for brain health," I always like to look what the experts do. You know, Mark Mattson is one of the top brain experts who also knows about intermittent fasting, and he studies the neurological benefits of fasting. Guess what approach he uses? Daily eating window. So, that says a lot to me. Sometimes, we think that, "Well, in order to get super-duper fabulous health benefits, we got to push ourselves and do more and more fasting." Well, when the number one neurological benefit expert of fasting, he has a daily eating window, that says a lot to me.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I think that is very, very telling. Yeah, just with the history of ADF I think it is such a thing, because it's a thing. Wow. I'm being very scientific right now. That is easy to study, it's a setup that can be looked at with all of the studies they do in the research. I think it has a lot to do with just the history of how the research has been done in the data more so than practically what might be the best. But sorry, just a side note, I hope you're feeling better when we do get to me because I was just laughing thinking about conversations we might have while having wine with you like [laughs] explosions of wins and forever fasting and I can't wait to see you in person. So, Andrea, oh, Andrea, Andrea, what do you say?

Gin Stephens: Most of the time, it's Andrea. Like around here but I don't know. I mean, it could be anything. But Andrea is what I would just automatically say, but there's a lot of ways you could pronounce it. I had one student one time. She had a crazy name. Not that Andrea is a crazy name, it's not. But this girl had a crazy name and she like-- I was like, "How do you say it?" Then she said it and then, another day, she's like, "You said my name wrong." I'm like, "Okay. How is it?" She said it a different way than she said the first time. Another student said, "That is not how you said it before." She looked [giggles] I'm like, "She's right. That is not how you said it before." She was a third grader. She was trying out the different ways. Anyway, [laughs] forgive us, Andrea, if that's wrong.

Melanie Avalon: So, Alzheimer's. I have a lot of thoughts on it. I actually have an episode 'you are looking for resources.' I interviewed the Sherzai's. You're talking about names are hard to pronounce. Their names are Dr. Dean and I think, it's Ayesha Sherzai. But they are the head actually of the, I'm not sure the exact title. I think, it's like the Alzheimer's or the dementia school at Loma Linda or Institute. So, their books are The Alzheimer's Solution and then their newest book is The 30-Day Alzheimer's Solution, which is kind of an abbreviated form and more of like a meal plan. But I did an interview with them. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/alzheimers, that might be something to listen to. We dive deep, deep, deep into Alzheimer's, the causes of it, they are huge proponents, and obviously, I'm a supporter of the idea that diet can largely be preventative for Alzheimer's.

I will say they are vegan and that is their approach to it. But regardless of if you're vegan or not, and if that resonates with or if you even agree with that or not the conversation, they were very, very welcoming and open to my audience which tends to be lower carb and inclusive of animal protein. So, we discussed all of that. I think if you listen to that, you'll walk away with some practical dietary and lifestyle things that you can do for Alzheimer's prevention. As far as the actual fasting, I don't know that there are studies on ADF specifically, or different dietary approaches in Alzheimer's. Basically, I wouldn't stress too much about finding the fasting pattern to prevent Alzheimer's. Instead, I would focus on the fasting pattern that you can really integrate in your life, and that feels good, and that you can stick to and really, really focus on your dietary choices during your eating window. I think that is so huge.

Oh, and then something that's really interesting, I was looking this up while Gin was reading the question, but I actually was just reading a study, and I almost don't want to bring this up because people like to draw very black and white conclusions from studies. So, we read something and it shows something, and then people think, "Oh, okay, this is black and white. This means this." What I encourage listeners to do is to really just try to take a more comprehensive picture and understand, we almost for anything-- I mean, it really is shocking. But almost for anything health related, you can probably find studies showing the complete opposite conclusion. That can be frustrating, it can be confusing, but I think that's also very freeing as well, because it just goes to show that you don't have to take anything as complete absolute truth when it comes to interpreting health studies and information and you can really read as much as you can, find what resonates with you and implement that. So, that's the lengthy intro to say that I was reading a study because she was asking about fasting in autophagy, and I was actually reading a study that was looking at ADF and comparing it to normal eating, and they actually did look at gene expression related to autophagy, and they did not find any effects on gene expression related to autophagy with ADF.

Does that mean ADF does not encourage autophagy? No. All it means is that, I don't know that we have a definitive answer on what is the pathway to autophagy. If we know anything, we know that autophagy is actually always occurring. 24/7, we know that exercise for example increases autophagy, possibly just as much as fasting, but there're so many factors that are related. So, I wouldn't make autophagy the end goal. I would make your overall lifestyle-- especially, when it comes to Alzheimer's, your overall lifestyle supportive of your brain health. So, I would check out that interview that I did, and to speak to what I just said about finding contradictory things. So, the Sherzai's who I had on the show, like I said, they're very vegan, their approach just by its very nature is going to be higher carb, lower fat. If you want the complete opposite opinion, you can read Dr. Dale Bredesen's book, it is The End of Alzheimer's, he actually takes more of a low carb approach. So, I know that's ironic. I really want to have him on the show, because I would love to have his perspective as well.

But basically, what I'd recommend Andrea is, maybe reading those two books and finding what resonates with you, finding what overlaps between them, and implementing that as well, I think, if anything, we do know that fasting is very supportive of health. It does enhance autophagy in general. And I already mentioned this earlier, but my supplement serrapeptase, and I did not plan this at all. I forgot that this question was even in here. There have been studies on it and it breaks down amyloid plaque, both in vivo and in vitro and rodent trials, and then, I think the other one was like the zebrafish or something. I don't know. It was so random. But the importance of that is, so, basically in vitro means in a cell dish, so, if they put serrapeptase on amyloid plaque just in a cell dish, it breaks it down. It also works in vivo that means within the organism, so that means if they give serrapeptase to rats, or to the zebrafish, or whatever they're testing that it breaks down the amyloid plaque within their brain. That's super cool that it does both. There haven't been human studies on this, but I think that's pretty telling. So, I would definitely, definitely go big on the serrapeptase supplementation for Alzheimer's prevention as well.

Again, I'm not a doctor and again, if you missed it in the beginning, mine will be at avalonx.com for that. Things like ZOE and stuff like that, we've talked about ZOE a lot in this show. It's a program where you eat these designer muffins, wear a CGM, do some blood tests, test your gut microbiome, and it shows how your body processes carbs and fat, it shows you where your gut microbiome is at, and then it makes recommendations to best support your metabolic health. That's not Alzheimer's, but that's taking charge of your metabolic health, which honestly like metabolic health, I think is the foundation for everything. Because it's how your body is turning food into energy, whether or not your body is storing that as fat, whether or not it's building up in your body creating the metabolic issue problems, you could argue that is where things start going wrong. So, when you're no longer to properly process your fuel, that's when things are building up. Amyloid plaque in the brain could be an issue from that. So, really, anything that supports your health, I think is the way to go. So, we'll put links in the show notes to those two books. I'll put links with discount codes for ZOE, we'll put link to the serrapeptase, but I think there's a lot you can do.

One last thing I did want to point out was that, yes, there is a genetic tendency, a gene for Alzheimer's, A-P-O-E-4. That said, even if you do have a genetic tendency for Alzheimer's, you can make massive, massive steps to prevent it. So, I would not be wedded to that if you get that diagnosis.

Gin Stephens: Well, you pretty much nailed everything. [laughs] You went through it. I'll keep it simple kind of girl. Find a lifestyle that feels good to you. The kind of fasting that feels good if you want to throw in like a meal less Monday kind of thing, once a week and follow that by an up day, so that you're getting that one longer fast if it just feels like something that is beneficial, and then, do what feels good the other days. I mean, I eat every day. So, I'm making that recommendation because you sound like you're interested in doing longer fasts, but I eat every day. I don't do meal less Monday. But a lot of people love it and I'm a huge fan of ZOE. And finding foods that make you feel great that you also enjoy eating. That's the thing about ZOE. It helped me figure out what foods worked well for my body. It gave me some tips like, "Hey, I shouldn't eat as much fat all at one time." Although, it didn't tell me to eat low fat, I just shouldn't eat like a whole lot of fat, then eat a whole lot of fat again like in a really tight eating window. So, it taught me some things about that. So, learning about your body is always a good thing. I felt so great when I was following their recommendations very strictly. I met my goal and I feel good. So, I loosely think about what I learned, but I don't like do it.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking with a meal less Monday, when I did the prep for the colonoscopy, so not the PillCam, but the colonoscopy, I drank the laxative stuff, but then I also did bone broth because you can have clear liquids. It was interesting because-- so just drinking the bowel prep stuff, which was this awful liquid laxative that I flavored with a strawberry kiwi stevia thing, just drinking that I was not hungry, but then, I had the bone broth, and I got starving. So, I was like mental note. I was like mental note next time just do a complete fast. So, on Halloween, when I was doing the bowel prep, I just did the bowel prep. This is also just talking to individuality. I sweetened it with stevia strawberry kiwi stuff. That's all I did. So, it ended up being a fast of about like a 48 hour fast-ish almost. I didn't the night before and then I wasn't going to eat that day, and so then I fasted, and then I had to go all the next day, and I was like, "Oh, I really I kind of like this," and I'm like, "Maybe I do want to try integrating a complete fast here and there."

Gin Stephens: A longer fast.

Melanie Avalon: Although, I will say I'm freezing when I do that. So, sleeping at night-- Normally, I always sleep with my Chilipad OOLER, and it's really cold, and it keeps my body heat down. But when I don't eat that night and sleep, I'm like really cold. That's typical for longer fasts. We hear that. So, but I was like, "Oh, this feels like a really nice clean out." But I don't know. I just love eating so much at night that--

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I want to eat every day.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I do too. But it's a nice reframe. Because now I'm like, if I ever have to do this again, it's nice to know that I can do it and it wasn't even that hard. It was hard though, when I felt when I had the bone broth because it made me hungry. Without the bone broth, it was easy.

Gin Stephens: All right. So, let's go on to the next question. Are we ready? Paula.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Paula, the subject is: "Melatonin and so many other cues." [laughs] "Melanie and Gin, thank you so much for all that you do. I'm a fan and listen to you weekly on my Monday AM workout session. I recently listened to Melanie's podcast on melatonin and have a lot of questions. Number one, does it interfere with metabolism/fasting etc.?"

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Before I answer, the episode that Paula is referring to, I interviewed Dr. John Lieurance on my show, he has a new book. He calls it like Melatonin Miracle Hormone something like that. I'll put a link in the show notes. But the episode is at melanieavalon.com/melatonin. Brief summary, he's a fan of high, high, high dose supplementation of melatonin. His book talks about how we think of melatonin as a sleep hormone which it is and that it instigates the sleep state in a way. But he talks about how it's actually sort of like our body's master stress hormone, and that it does all these other crazy things which it does. There's actually so much literature on it. So, it's a really fascinating read. He has a whole protocol of supplementing melatonin. So, question one. "Does it interfere with metabolism, fasting, etc.?" Not really. So, if you're taking it, it's not going to have an effect on you. You might could argue that it's going to support your overall health in general. So, maybe it's going to have a beneficial effect on your metabolism if you're utilizing it correctly, but you don't have to worry about it breaking your fast or anything like that.

Gin Stephens: I think also with melatonin it depends on the formulation about whether it breaks your fast. Like if you're eating melatonin gummies or something, that would be different.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, Gin. Thank you. Such a good point.

Gin Stephens: I know the nuts and bolts because that's what people ask. They're like, "Can I take melatonin and what if it's a gummy?" So, it does matter. If you're eating a melatonin gummy that would not be fasting. I don't worry about capsules so much. A real stickler might be like, "Yeah, but what's the filler?" But you know, you're about to go to bed. So, anyway. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: A lot of them are like chewables, or gummies, or syrups. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Number two, "Is it worth taking over the counter pills? I don't need them to sleep, but feeI they help waking up less through the night as I'm now going through menopause with some night hot flashes."

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, I find it really interesting that they help you with not waking up just because in general, they're more of a sleep instigator, but I guess people would find that an experience as well, where it does help with sleeping throughout the night. Is it worth it? It's totally a N of 1 experience. To recap, Dr. John Lieurance's approach is not really tackling sleep specifically, its tackling overall metabolic health, and it's a different protocol. But to talk about just melatonin in general, if it's working for you do it, if it's not, don't. I don't know, I get on the fence about dosing melatonin for sleep because the studies-- they've done studies on the melatonin on the market, and it's shocking. The amount that actually is in the supplements compared to what they say it is. It's really hard to regulate. It's very surprising to me. I won't go on a soapbox about this. But it's very interesting, what is regulated and what isn't and something like melatonin, that's a straight up hormone isn't really regulated, and there can be all these supplements. It's very strange to me.

You can find a brand that you trust, and you like it, and you take it, and it helps you, I would do that. I know a lot of listeners take Dr. Kirk Parsley's sleep remedy and that does have a tiny bit of melatonin in it, but I really like that supplement because it's a synergistic blend of basically all the different ingredients your brain needs to start the sleep state. So, it's not like it's knocking you out like a drug. It's just giving your brain what it needs to fall asleep and it does include melatonin. So, I would actually rather than do straight up melatonin, I probably take that instead. I can put a link in the show notes to it. I have a discount for it as well. But yeah, is it worth taking it? It's really you just have to experiment for yourself.

Gin Stephens: I feel hungover in the morning when I take melatonin. I don't feel good for melatonin. I don't know why. Taking a good quality magnesium is what really helps me with my sleep. I've changed the time that I'm taking my magnesium and that seems to have made a difference. That might be the key. I always took it at bedtime but now, I'm taking it with my dinner.

Melanie Avalon: I take mine with my dinner.

Gin Stephens: I'm now taking it with my dinner. I've always taken it with bedtime-- at bedtime. Now, I take it with my dinner. So, I don't know if that's making a difference. Maybe it has time to get into my system better but I'm sleeping through the night. That is very exciting or it could just be that my body is used to the hormonal changes, I don't know. But it's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon: I was just checking. This is crazy. So, listeners, the magnesium that Gin is talking about specifically, the ad in today's show from BiOptimizers is actually about that magnesium, and you'll get-- we have a discount code, it's 10% off. So, find the ad in the show and listen to it. But the link is magbreakthrough.com/ifpodcast. Coupon code IFPODCAST10 will get you 10% off. So, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It's a really good magnesium. It's got a lot of different types of magnesium in it. But taking it with dinner maybe the key for me.

Melanie Avalon: I get so excited which I guess is like the entirety of what I do. But when something works for me, and then I recommend it to somebody, and then it really helps them, I get so excited. So, I've heard this now-- I've heard it a lot from the audience, but just in the podcast world, Noelle [unintelligible 00:48:46] who has the Wealth & Women Podcast, BiOptimizers now sponsors them and I had introduced her to them and Noelle lauds magnesium breakthrough all the time that it really helps her with staying asleep and it's really exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yep. So, number three question. "Can you shed some light into supplements in suppository form? Had never heard about it until that podcast?"

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Supplements in suppository form.

Gin Stephens: Can we take a vote, I guess, can we make a guess? Has Gin ever done supplements in suppository form? Yes, or no?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: You're correct. You win a prize.

Melanie Avalon: Let's play with Melanie. Has Melanie?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Melanie has. Am I right?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Oh, darn it. I thought I was going to-

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's a twist ending.

Gin Stephens: Okay, it was literally.

Melanie Avalon: I've done all the other things. Enemas, and colonics, and I have now had two people on the show trying to convince me to take a suppository. You just insert a pill down there. I don't really know how to say it. Otherwise--

Gin Stephens: That's how you do it. You nailed it.

Melanie Avalon: In the back, in your back side. Not the front.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think there might be suppositories for that, yeah? I think they're called, I don't want to say it, vaginal suppositories. Okay, I said it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, I was going to say, "Are there?" That's interesting for like yeast infections and stuff or--

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think, oh yeah. Okay, and then I have done those.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. [laughs] Oh, my goodness. Surprise ending.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I could be wrong, but I think they're considered that, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, probably. The benefits of suppositories is the absorption, that route is actually very, very effective. So, for example, when people do coffee enemas, which I have done a lot of coffee enemas. One of the benefits is the caffeine basically goes directly to your liver compared to drinking it orally, where and again, I'm going to sound so unscientific. So, please forgive me, but drinking caffeine orally, it has to go through this whole process, and through your body, and affects other things, and it can take a while to actually get to the liver, and go through its half-life and all of that. When you take it as an enema, which is similar to suppository, it's like bam. Liver and it does-- it has this whole detox effect. Yeah, the absorption can be really great, especially, for supplements that struggle to get absorbed via the gut for multiple reasons.

A lot of people really struggle with absorbing nutrients and absorbing supplements because the state of our gut today with leaky gut, and our diets, and our environment. So, the suppository can kind of gets around all of those issues, especially, something like glutathione. Glutathione or NAD are two that it's really hard to get, even absorb it all orally. So, taking it that route is another way to go. It's funny. Dr. Lieurance keeps reaching out to me because he sent me a lot of his suppositories, and I still have them, and he keeps checking in like, "Have you taken them?" I don't know. I'm scared. I just don't want to-- for some reason, there's something about like putting it in and like it's like staying there that like bothers me. I don't know. Maybe someday. Maybe, I'll share on Instagram.

Gin Stephens: That is a lot of sharing. [laughs]

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Gin Stephens: All right. So, we have one more little section there and she says, "I'm 40 and according to my doctor premenopausal since I was 38, 135 pounds, 5'7" inches. Fast, 18 to 20 hours six times a week with an up day three meals on Sunday when I have breakfast with my kids. For me, only a mocha but since it's not fasting, I consider it a meal. Have not lost one pound fasting, but love how I feel. It would be amazing to lose five to 10 pounds though, but I do love my wine, cheese, and occasional bread. Again, thank you for all you do," Paula.

Now, I'll say, Paula, your weight at 135 at 5'7" sounds really ideal. So, here's what I would do for you. I would not focus on the scale anymore. I would never even look at the scale, but focus on your honesty pants. Because you're very likely to see your body change, but your weight not to change like body re-composition, losing a little more fat. I don't know if you've heard me tell the story before about how I lost two jean sizes over a certain period of time. It's like over a year. But it only translated to two pounds on the scale. So, you're at the point where I wouldn't try to lose five to 10 pounds on the scale, but just focus on changes in your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm really, really glad that you brought that up. I was going to bring that up as well. Do you know what book I'm actually reading right now? Well, I'm reading a lot of books, but one of the books. It's The Cheese Trap. Have you heard of it?

Gin Stephens: Is it the book that tells you not to eat cheese?

Melanie Avalon: Dr. Neal Barnard. He is very anti-cheese. I just find it really interesting that you can write an entire book about not eating cheese.

Gin Stephens: I mean, you know what? That's true. That is like I said, one I will never read because I don't want anybody telling me not to eat cheese because I love cheese.

Melanie Avalon: I'm learning so much about cheese, though. I do agree. The only reason I want to bring it up is, if a person is following a "healthy diet in general," but they're wanting to lose weight and they're trying to figure out what food to best remove to lose weight, if you're having cheese, it might be one of the ones to start with for sure.

Gin Stephens: I will say that's true. It is not a lose weight food. That is a fact. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: If anything, I'd say, more likely gain weight food. The reason I'm reading it as I'm going to be interviewing him which is very exciting because I think, I might have mentioned him on the show before, he's very vegan, very vegan. When you think vegans, you think Dr. Michael Greger, Dean Ornish, Dr. Neal Barnard. [laughs] So, I'm very excited to interview him. What I want to ask him about though, he's basically making the case in this book that, cheese's pretty much the worst thing we can be eating. But he hasn't talked about any of the studies on calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy. All the studies I've looked at that compare calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy to calorie-restricted diets without low-fat dairy show better effects in the calorie-restricted diets with low-fat dairy. So, I'm very excited to ask him about that.

I'm actually bringing him on for his new study about menopause. We [unintelligible [00:57:29] questions in here about menopause and a vegan diet, a soy inclusive vegan diet to reduce menopause symptoms. That's what he wants to talk about. So, I've been diving deep into the soy literature and I will say, Gin, I'm actually-- think I'm changing my thoughts about soy a little bit.

Gin Stephens: What do you mean?

Melanie Avalon: So, my stance or my thoughts about it in general were that it's likely estrogenic. So, probably should be avoided for hormonal issues with the exception being maybe--

Gin Stephens: Like fermented soy.

Melanie Avalon: -fermented forms. I still actually-- looking into literature. I think that this might be the case. I'm excited to talk to him about it. But maybe Asian populations in general respond better to soy than Caucasian populations?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that is very likely. Very much. So, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: The thing that I'm expanding my mind or that I'm rethinking a little bit is, I'm not finding as many studies as I thought they were showing that soy has in vivo and the food form has these negative estrogenic effects. But it seems very complicated. So, I'm very excited to interview him. But one thing I got really excited about, sorry, this is a tangent, and then I'll stop. He talks about, one of the reasons they think soy might have beneficial effects is because your gut bacteria turn it into a compound called Equol. E-Q-U-O-L. It might depend on your gut bacteria. So, if you have these gut bacteria that turned soy into this Equol thing, then you were like an Equol responder. So, you would respond nicely to soy. But if you don't have those gut bacteria, you might not produce that Equol and then you might not have the beneficial effects. But I got really excited because then I was reading a research on Equol, reading a study on it, and it was talking about other foods that increase Equol and it was like soy and then it was a list of like cheese, milk, like all these dairy things. I can't wait to ask him about this. I'm so excited.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just think that that's a fascinating example of-- Again, we are all different when it comes to what foods work well for our bodies. I think you nailed it when you said that certain populations genetically are adapted to eating for example soy or maybe seaweed because that's something that their ancestors have been eating. And that could even be-- Their gut microbiome as well something that's passed on from the culture where they grow up, and from the foods that they're eating when they're little, and from their parents. So many factors come into play. So, the black and white, this food's good, this food's bad. As long as it's a real food, I don't-- I don't like to put real foods in that good and bad like now. Like GMO soy, that's all over the place in the United States. Okay, I could say a note of that one. Most of this, I talked about this in Clean(ish). Most of the soy in the United States is GMO and it's in everything.

Melanie Avalon: Is it the highest?

Gin Stephens: I think it was. Like 90 something. Yeah, I think it was. I can't-- off top my head.

Melanie Avalon: Like the most GMO?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A huge question I have for him is like, "can you-- If you eat these foods enough, can you eventually get that gut bacteria that's going to turn it into that compound or do some people just not have that population? So, no matter how much soy they eat, they're never going to become like an Equol producer."

Gin Stephens: That's a great question. I wonder if he knows the answer.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to ask him.

Gin Stephens: Like, I wonder if anyone knows the answer, because you know our gut microbiome is still a mystery, because they're really still learning about it. When I had my analysis done in 2017 versus when I had it done again for ZOE in 2021, four years difference, huge difference in the amount of information that we can learn now versus 2017.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's crazy. Everything that we learn. I think the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. One of the biggest I feel sort of recent changes is, they actually, originally, drastically overestimated how many bacteria cells to human cells there are. It used to be this crazy stat of like, I don't know how many. It was a big amount of like, there are this many bacterial cells for every one human cell. Now, it's almost closer to a one-to-one ratio I think.

Gin Stephens: That is interesting. I say in Clean(ish) that the motto for scientists everywhere should be, "Oops, we were wrong before." [laughs] Because you know, that's the thing. Things change. The more we look into stuff, the more we're like, "Ha, that's not true. What we thought was not true at all."

Melanie Avalon: On a recent Robb Wolf episode, he went on this whole tangent about how frustrating the phrases when people say the science is settled. I don't think the science is really ever settled. I'm refining things, you know, like things that all the time that we're just wrong about like how can it ever be settled?

Gin Stephens: Well, one of my favorite quotes is "Questioning science is science." Literally, it's not a good quote?

Melanie Avalon: That is so true.

Gin Stephens: I taught the scientific method to elementary students. I was in charge of the science fair in Aiken Elementary for years, and then, I taught my fourth-grade gifted kids the scientific method, and they did project, science projects at school, 100% at school, which was so much fun. They didn't take them home and have their parents do them. They did them completely at school. But you know, that really is true. Questioning science literally is science, because everything starts with a question that you're trying to answer.

Melanie Avalon: The whole method is creating a hypothesis and then trying to prove it wrong like questioning it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, exactly. So, Chad's a research scientist and he always talks about the more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yep. That's literally how I feel. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com, and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode240. Those show notes will have a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. They'll also have links to everything we talked about and we talked about a lot of stuff that was linkable. You can follow us on Instagram. You can follow my Verified.

Gin Stephens: You can see my screen porch.

Melanie Avalon: You can follow my Verified profile. So happy. I'm @melanieavalon on Instagram and Gin is @ginstephens. And yes, so, I hope Gin that you are able to rest and I hope you're feeling sprightly.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to, I'm willing myself. I don't stay sick for long. Whenever I'm sick, it like comes, I'm like always surprised by it. It comes out of nowhere and I'm like, "What? I'm sick? How'd that happen?" Then I like, "I'll have maybe a day where I don't feel well," and then, I wake up the next day and I'm fine. So, that is what I'm claiming. I will wake up tomorrow and find that is what I am expecting.

Melanie Avalon: Do you come here on Sunday or Monday?

Gin Stephens: I'm coming Sunday. I'm not coming early because I'm coming on Sunday checking into the hotel and I'll be there Sunday night. But just get up and go, record Monday morning. I just didn't want to be driving in from home and having to be there at nine in the morning going through Atlanta traffic because, you know Atlanta traffic. The recording studio changed from one part of town to another and the guy was like, "Well--" You know MacMillan, the guy in charge of the audio book was like, "All right, well, we got to this hotel room in downtown Atlanta, but the recording studio just moved and it's 15 minutes away. Do you want to move your hotel?" I thought about it because the hotel I was booked in was a nicer hotel, but I'm looking at 15 minutes in Atlanta is like might be an hour and a half.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, easier to just be by there and I really did find some really cool-- I'm debating between two different places, but--

Gin Stephens: I would totally think that around Emory would have some excellent places to eat. I would have thought that. But I don't think the hotel is super great, but whatever.

Melanie Avalon: This will be so exciting. And it'll be the day before my birthday.

Gin Stephens: Yay.

Melanie Avalon: Like the night off my birthday.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, I can't wait. We can put a picture on Instagram.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Oh my gosh. Well, I'll see you soon.

Gin Stephens: Okey doke. Yes, you will. All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Nov 14

Episode 239: Melanie’s Zoe Results, Burning Fat & Carbs, Blood Types, Personalized Nutrition, Low Insulin & High Glucose, Diabetes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Michele - Fasting insulin and fasting glucose

Listener Q&A: John - Fasting

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 239 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 239 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm so excited because our screened porch furniture came this week. Now, I can actually sit on the screen porch. We've been eating dinner out there every night. I'm so happy.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: I know. It's a lot of porch. It's a big, big porch. So, [laughs] yeah, the furniture didn't go in like I thought it would. It looks way better than I thought it would, because of the way that we tweaked it, and I ordered a couple of rugs today, because it needs to be warmed up a little bit, but it is so cute out there. Ellie loves it. My cat Ellie, can I just tell you. The first night we always watch TV in the den which is right next to this room which Chad and I do before bed. Ellie sits or she might be outside. Ellie's in different places, but sometimes, she's outside, sometimes she's with us. But we always go to bed and I'm like, "All right, Ellie, time to go to bed."

The first night we were out on the screen porch watching TV before bed with Ellie and then Ringo was out there, too. There's a cat flap on the door, the screen doors, they can go in and out. But Ellie was out and like she didn't know how to use it. So, we're like, "Okay, no problem." But when it was time to go to bed, I'm like, "All right, Ellie time to go to bed." So, we get up to go in the house, and you could tell-- She has got so much personality. She was like-- if she was a person, she would have said, "I don't want to." [laughs] She hid under the sofa, and then, I got her out, and she was running, and she ran under the table, and she wouldn't come out. So, finally, I got her and I took her inside. I was like, "All right, we're going to bed now."

She did not go to bed. She ran outside through the other cat door. So, all right, whatever. She's mad now. The next morning, I woke up, she was on the screen porch. She had figured out how to use that because that cat flaps a little different. She had figured it out. She was like being super naughty and belligerent, and she's like, "You can't stop me. I'm going to sleep on the screen porch." [laughs] So, just a few minutes ago I was out there. She came in with a lizard. It was like old times. She ran right in with her little lizard, and dropped it at my feet, and start making that little noise she makes. So, she has claimed the screened porch.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that sounds like a very southern thing, the screen porch.

Gin Stephens: Well, it is, because it's just-- so much of the year, you can go out there. Of course, you know, here we are. We're recording this end of October. It comes out in November, but it's still warm enough to go out there. But I wish we finished it just a month ago instead of. You know what, I've had more time to enjoy it because there will be December, January. There'll be some days I can use it, but I won't get as much use out of it as I will in like spring.

Melanie Avalon: Will you guys put a fire pit or anything like that?

Gin Stephens: I don't think we're going to. We've thought about that, but we've got a couple inside fireplaces in. I don't know. What we're thinking about it, maybe on the deck but I don't know, outside.

Melanie Avalon: Well, very nice.

Gin Stephens: It is very exciting. It's only been like a year ago that we had the plans drawn. So, it was a yearlong process. We're still not finished. It's taking forever like gutters need to be put on. We don't know why the gutter people haven't come. The electrician needs to finish a few things. Landscaping, oh, Lord, it's going to be another year before all the landscaping is done.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I want to see pictures when it's all done.

Gin Stephens: All right. I have one picture on Instagram of a little table that we have out there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Take a look at that.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to look. I think I did see that pop up. Oh, that looks like indoors.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's outdoors, though.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. I love it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's very much like a-- here in the south, a screen porch is really very much three seasons. I can put on my Uggs and wrap up in a blanket and be out there on the warmer days. Probably, January, February, not as much, but--

Melanie Avalon: Very nice.

Gin Stephens: What's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, we said, last week that we would discuss my ZOE results.

Gin Stephens: I know and I've been waiting. I'm so excited about that.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think we ever talked about yours.

Gin Stephens: I think we did. I said that I cleared fat slowly and I cleared glucose slowly.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you were slow on both of them?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I wasn't surprised that I cleared fat slowly. But I was a little more surprised about the glucose.

Melanie Avalon: Were you like in the yellow, or the red, or was it really bad, or--?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. I don't remember that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't think we talked about it that granularly. So, mine was exactly what I thought it was going to be. I clear fat really well, like almost excellent.

Gin Stephens: See, yeah. I'm not surprised about that. Now, you clear glucose slowly, do you?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, I was so close. Fat, I was almost in the excellent category, and then for blood sugar, the four levels are bad or good and excellent, and it gives you an actual number. So, for blood sugar, I'm 35 which is poor. Good starts at-- It shows you like the average population and then it shows like what you are. So, the lowest of the low for the average population is 46. So, I'm below the average. I feel like I've said all along. I feel like I don't handle blood sugar very well.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I just pulled up my report. So, I'm going to look at mine. Tell me, again, what was your blood sugar control?

Melanie Avalon: My blood sugar was 35.

Gin Stephens: Oh, mine was worse than yours. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what was yours?

Gin Stephens: 23. And I'm not surprised because I can remember when I was a little girl, I didn't eat a lot of sweets and sugar because I could feel it make my blood sugar crash. This is when I was young. I never really ate a lot of sweets, I didn't really like it. I could feel, it made my blood sugar crash. So, I was always the salty snack kind of person versus the sweet snack kind of person. So, yeah, my blood sugar control is worse than yours. What was your blood fat?

Melanie Avalon: Is that in the bad category?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I was right at the threshold of poor and bad. Yeah, it's in the bad but close to poor, but bad. What was your fat?

Melanie Avalon: My poor, by the way, is dead smack in the middle of poor.

Gin Stephens: Smack in the middle of poor. What was your fat?

Melanie Avalon: 73.

Gin Stephens: Mine was 46. So, it wasn't as bad. Mine's in the poor. So, the blood fat wasn't as bad.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool. Yeah. Mine's, I'm so close. It's almost in the excellent. You know, that's really what I thought it was going to be something like that. I also think it's pretty telling because so clearly, I don't have good blood glucose or blood sugar control, but my fasting blood sugars are always good, my A1C is always good. So, I think that's pretty telling that the dietary approach that I'm doing with intermittent fasting and very high carb fruit, but low fat is working well.

Gin Stephens: That's true, too, for me because I--, same exact thing. My test results are always fine. Interestingly, personalized nutrition, we know that the form that something's in makes a difference, I know, we tested the muffin. Muffin is what we used for the test. I know that things like muffins, and cookies, and cake, I know that, that makes me crash worse than if I have ice cream. So, I would have predicted that baked goods would make me crash sooner if that makes sense. But I guess that the ice cream is also high fat. When I had the fat, that's the variable. So, now, I'm thinking about I don't know how they would test that because I guess, maybe, if I had like a low fat ice cream, that would be interesting to test.

Melanie Avalon: I would love to test just like the same amount of-- I mean, but it would be a huge volume. But the same amount of calories, and fat, and carbs, but from whole foods that would be from the type of foods I normally eat. But I know for me personally, eating the same amount of carbs from fruit, I tolerate really well. But if I eat that from starches or definitely processed foods, major spikes there.

Gin Stephens: I see that's so interesting. My body responds fabulously to potatoes and starchy like whole grain kind of things. But not as well to fruit. Fruit makes me crash more so. It's very interesting and I've never been a big fruit eater. People have actually said that like back when I was on Facebook and posting my meals all the time, they're like, "I never see you eat fruit." I'm like. "I never do." [laughs] Sometimes, I'll have strawberries and blackberries when they're really in season and they look great in the grocery store. But I don't eat apples. I don't buy fruit and eat fruit.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm all about the fruit. I feel like I should-- well, I was going to say I should start a dietary approach, but it really is sort of the way Peat approach already, but a lot of people have come to me actually, people who have been doing carnivore or low carb, but pretty meat heavy, and doing a paradigm shift where they go low fat, but keeping all of that meat, but just make it lean and add in the fruit, because that's what I do basically. I've had quite a few people come to me and say, they want to experiment with that, and they're super nervous, but it's gone really well for all of them.

Gin Stephens: So, low fat, low carb, high protein.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, basically keeping in the aspect of a carnivore low carb diet, that's high in the protein and high in the meat, but just replacing the fat aspect of that with fruit.

Gin Stephens: High carb, high protein, low fat. All right, I'm done just trying to wrap my head around it. I was trying to compare it to what it might be out there. I was thinking of the Dukan diet, but Dukan is not-

Melanie Avalon: It's Peat.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Dukan is low fat, low carb, just high protein. Yeah, that's how it's different from that. I was trying to remember but yeah, it's definitely not the same as Dukan. I felt so bad on Dukan. That was the worst I ever felt ever.

Melanie Avalon: It's basically what I did for a few years.

Gin Stephens: You felt good on that?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I've never felt worse. I only made it like a very short time on that. It was because it was like low fat, low carb, high protein and I just was like, I felt that I was going to die. [laughs] I didn't last very long at all.

Melanie Avalon: Interestingly, so Maria Emmerich, do you know her?

Gin Stephens: I know who she is. Yep, she's a keto person. She writes cookbooks, too, right? She's got a lot of cookbooks.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, her thing is the whole Protein Sparing Modified Fast, PSMF. But she just focuses on the protein sparing part and there's no calorie restriction at all. So, she advocates basically Dukan Diet days. Basically, days of really high protein, low fat, low carb. She had a webinar thing recently. It was an in person and a webinar. I have the playback and I'm watching it right now, because I'm prepping the show, and you've got to watch this. It's her and her husband, and they talk about everything we talked about. So, well, with slides and her husband, I think is some sort of, I don't know, if he's like an engineer. He's in that world. But literally everything we talked about, like chasing ketones, and the role of fat, but something he pointed out that had never occurred to me and I seriously just need to take a course, and I'm like, I don't know, metabolism. What would that be? Biochemistry?

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't really know. Chad would know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He pointed out something that never occurred to me. The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs. Do you know why?

Gin Stephens: Why?

Melanie Avalon: It's because we can't burn fat. This blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: Okay, wait a minute. We can't burn fat, but does he mean that we can't be fueled by fat?

Melanie Avalon: No, we can't burn fat. So, burning fat requires pyruvate. Pyruvate is created from carbs. When we don't have carbs, we can't form-- is it pyruvate or-

Gin Stephens: I don't know. But wait, we do burn fat. So, now I'm confused. I just don't understand what he means by, you can't burn fat. He's not saying our bodies are incapable of burning fat ever.

Melanie Avalon: -okay oxaloacetate. Okay. So, the thing he said that blew my mind is, he said, "The reason we enter ketosis is not because we can't burn carbs, it's because we can't burn fat."

Gin Stephens: But we can burn fat though. We do burn fat. I don't know. What do you mean by can't burn fat? Can't burn fat, so, we have to go into ketosis to allow us to burn fat? He's not saying, we don't burn fat from our bodies, is he?

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat in the Krebs cycle. To burn fat, it requires oxaloacetate which is made from glucose. So, when we run out of carbs or glucose, we can't make oxaloacetate, we can't burn fat in the Krebs cycle. So, the body has to instead switch into a ketogenic state, send fat to the liver, generate ketones, and also, it can break down fat for glycerol in the liver. So, that just blows my mind. Literally, the switch like, "Oh, making ketones. It's not because we ran out of carbs. It's because we can no longer burn fat without carbs."

Gin Stephens: Okay. The liver has to basically once it depletes the glycogen, then the fat comes in and we make the ketones out of that in the liver.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But the reasoning-- that just blows my mind. The reasoning is because we can't burn fat is the reason we start burning ketones, not carbs. Mind blown. Mind blown.

Gin Stephens: I guess I'm trying to understand the definition of can't burn fat.

Melanie Avalon: Literally, can't. So, to burn fat in the Krebs cycle it requires oxaloacetate from glucose. So, literally cannot burn fat. Don't have the substrate to burn it.

Gin Stephens: We have to convert it. When we say that we flipped the metabolic switch, we're not getting into deeper fat burning. We're getting into fat conversion.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess it's like trying to think of analogy.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's more than I want to go. [laughs] That's a lot.

Melanie Avalon: When we're not in ketosis, we're burning fat a certain way and the way we burn it, it requires carbs. It's like they always say fat burns in the flame of carbs. It's because it actually does require carbs to burn fat in the normal functioning state if you're not in ketosis. So, then when you run out of carbs, your body's like, "Oh, we can't burn fat anymore. This is a problem. What are we going to do?" So, it starts a whole different process.

Gin Stephens: Okay. You just wouldn't call the process of turning fat into ketones burning fat. It's converting fat and you're using the fat to convert it into ketones. But technically that's not "burning the fat." It's just the technical wording is what it sounds like to me.

Melanie Avalon: Well, in a way you are, but I'm saying before that happens. So, like the in between. The moment we start a new way of fat burning with ketosis is because we temporarily can't burn fat without carbs. So, it's like switching the way that we're burning fat.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm just going to keep calling it flipping the metabolic switch like Mark Mattson says. [laughs] That's my favorite way of referring to. It's we're flipping the metabolic switch, so our body is using fat for fuel through the ketosis process. That still works. We can still say that because that's still true.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a good clarification. I think the misconception that's out there is that while we have carbs, we're burning carbs, and we're not burning fat, and then we run out of carbs and it's like, "Okay, well now we've got to just burn fat, so we start ketosis." But actually, when we're burning carbs, we're also burning fat, and then it's when we run out of carbs that we can't burn fat for the long term, so then we switch to ketosis.

Gin Stephens: Basically, my takeaway is, there's a lot going on. So, I don't think we need to really worry about what's going on Fast. Feast. Repeat. and it'll happen. That's my take. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I literally wrote in all caps, 'MIND BLOWN, TALK ABOUT.' That's the note I wrote.

Gin Stephens: Well, cool. I'm glad. I'm just like, "Yeah." [laughs] Look, the teacher in me loves that you want to know all that. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Then I'm just like, "All right--." I tuned out when my teacher was talking about the Krebs cycle in biology.

Melanie Avalon: I might take a course in all my free time or get a book.

Gin Stephens: Keep in mind, I taught elementary school. So, my mind really loves elementary level science. Understanding it at the basic just-- Think about the greatest hits, right? You know, how you learned the greatest hits of every artist, like a lot of things but you're not like, you don't know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift? You know everything there is to know about Taylor Swift. You're the deep diver. I'm the greatest hits. There's the difference.

Melanie Avalon: You know why that's an even better analogy, because if you just hear the greatest hits from an artist, there could be like not misconceptions, but you could have like a certain-- because I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'm saying like you could have a view that's correct but is not actually quite as nuanced as--

Gin Stephens: The very best example of that is the Grateful Dead. I went to a Grateful Dead concert with Will a few years ago in Atlanta and I was like, "Where's Sugar Magnolia, where's Uncle John's band, what are they playing?" [giggles] Because I had the Grateful Dead Greatest Hits, if that is not what they played. So, I get it. I was like, "I do not like the Grateful Dead at a concert. It was not my jam." But Will was like, "This is amazing," and it was actually dead in company. I think, they call it now and it was with John Mayer, and Will is so excited, but I was, "This is terrible. What's happening?" Anyway, I just want to hear Sugar Magnolia. Anyway, I wanted to circle back to something from before. What is your blood type?

Melanie Avalon: Oh.

Gin Stephens: I knew it was, oh. I was going to say, "Oh, let me tell you why, now." Here's a caveat. I do not believe it is as simple as blood type. But did you ever read The Blood Type Diet?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: And my friend, who did great on the Dukan Diet and he loved it. She was type O. I am type A. So, I do not believe everyone should go out and read The Blood Type Diet and follow it, because I tried to follow it. It never-- what he said to eat for 'A' didn't quite feel right to me. Then, if you read his later books, it gets even little more convoluted. He's like, "Well, it's not your blood type. It's like whether you're this or genotype or whatever," and then I was trying to figure that out. Then, it directly contradicted what he said earlier, and then I was so confused. I was like, "Never mind."

But that really was the first time I ever-- I say the first time, I heard about personalized nutrition was 2017, but actually, it was when I read The Blood Type Diet, the whole idea that we are different when it comes to what foods might work for us. So, there's that whole genetic factor or whatever. So, I don't think it's as simple as blood type, and I don't think he ever really proved his concept sufficiently for me to be like, "Yeah, that's it." But I was predicting you were type O.

Melanie Avalon: My theory with that is-- and this is not a comprehensive theory. But one of my thoughts about what might be going on is, he says that blood type O naturally correlate to higher HCl levels. I think that probably plays a big role in the high protein intake.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense. Because your body is better able to break it down.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like having just a naturally more carnivorous gut in a way. The thing about his work is very fascinating. But he mentions all of these studies and these tests and like I don't know where they are. I think they're all of his own work, you know?

Gin Stephens: And his dad even. I think his dad started the-- I don't know. It's been years since I read it.

Melanie Avalon: I wish they were published or something because you have to just take his word at it.

Gin Stephens: Then when if you read his later work, did you read his later work or you started going into like, whether you're the farmer, or the teacher, or the warrior, or whatever, genotype stuff that and you could get this test and that test, and then I was like, "Wait, whether you're secreter or non-secreter." I'm like, "This is way too complicated. Forget it." He lost me. [laughs] You know, everything was so contradictory, that also confused me. But I do think, we're different. Blood type is definitely related to genetics, right? You know certain populations, so it takes you back to the part that we've got genetic differences, which I do think is the solid foundation of that theory of his.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Just his catalog is so specific and granular.

Gin Stephens: It's like this really specific food. Eight navy beans, don't eat lima beans. I'm like, "What? Right." [laughs] Yeah, eat almond butter, not peanut butter. It was kind of like that. I can't remember what it was. But I know that overall, 'A' was supposed to thrive on-- in general, you would describe it as 'A.'

Melanie Avalon: Was it agrarian or agriculture?

Gin Stephens: Kind of vegetarian-ish with less meat, but some meat. That is really how I eat and 'O' was more like protein and meat.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it did-- It did line up with me pretty well, which was interesting. I wonder if he goes on shows. I should try to get him on the show.

Gin Stephens: That would be interesting. He's an interesting guy. So, I don't think that everything he says is completely wrong. But I don't think it's quite as simple as just blood type. We know it's not because the work that Tim Spector's doing, we know that a lot of it is your gut. We're so complicated that whenever we try to drill down to just like one little thing, we're a lot more complicated than that.

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Melanie Avalon: How was your gut microbiome result from it?

Gin Stephens: I don't have that report of-- I had some good stuff and some not as good stuff. It wasn't bad. It wasn't terrible.

Melanie Avalon: Mine was, let me pull it up. Mine was pretty much where I thought it wasn't that good.

Gin Stephens: It wasn't?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: Let's see if-- I don't know if I can find it quickly or not.

Melanie Avalon: Because they test 30 different strains. I'm dying to know like, people who follow a carnivore diet, and don't perceive having any gut issues and feel really good, I'd be really curious what they look like on these panels. I wonder if this panel is something that is--, I don't know I'd be curious like vegan versus carnivore. So, I only had three of the good ones and I had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven of the bad ones. So, less than ideal.

Gin Stephens: I'm looking at it sideways. It's hard to say. I've got more than three of the good ones. One, two, three, four, five. I've got like, most-- I've got a lot of good ones.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I have a lot of [unintelligible [00:30:56]. How's your [unintelligible [00:30:57]?

Melanie Avalon: I don't have [unintelligible [00:30:59].

Gin Stephens: Okay. It's one of the good ones. I've got 9%. It's fecal bacterium [unintelligible [00:31:07]. I'm reading it sideways. Oh, listen to this. It says it's associated with higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower levels of insulin. Well, we know I have low levels of insulin. I have 9.3% and normal is 7%.

Melanie Avalon: You can see just all the good and bads. Can you see how many goods you have and how many bads?

Gin Stephens: I think my report might be different than yours because I did it so long ago. I don't see that information.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I have an overview of the 30.

Gin Stephens: Listen, I have a lot of Oscar too, which is Oscillibacter whatever and it's associated with higher insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin. So, again, the ones that are associated with higher levels of insulin sensitivity and lower levels of insulin, I seem to have a lot of those or more of those.

Melanie Avalon: I have Veronica with higher insulin sensitivity and lower inflammation, Violet higher insulin sensitivity and lower insulin, and Valentina, I have all Vs, higher polyunsaturated fat levels and lower inflammation. That's so interesting, all the inflammation ones. The other ones-- wow, wait, that's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: So, you've got really low inflammation according to your gut.

Melanie Avalon: I have the ones for inflammation.

Gin Stephens: Then the bad ones, I've got some good on the bad ones too. The one that's associated with less favorable fat profile, I have a good ratio of those. I have fewer of those. I get green because I have fewer of them in the bad bugs. I don't have a lot of bad bugs at all. I'm really good on not having the bad ones. That's good.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting.

Gin Stephens: It is so interesting. You know your gut changes, so that's good. How about the beneficial parasite Blastocystis?

Melanie Avalon: Blastocystis hominis?

Gin Stephens: I was negative for that one.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I have that. Let me find that.

Gin Stephens: It's supposed to be good for you.

Melanie Avalon: I don't have it.

Gin Stephens: And they said it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just one part of a very complex system, so that's good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I don't have it. Yes. So, for listeners, if they are interested, we didn't even say what it was. We kind of just assumed--

Gin Stephens: Well, people have been listening. They know. Oh, I just got a crick in my neck because I was turned my head sideways because the report was like sideways. So, now I've got like a crick in my neck. I need somebody to rub my neck. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin, last night, I went to-- I love massages and I went to the massage parlor that I always go to and normally they just do like a Swedish massage, the normal thing. But this woman, I don't know, she went straight-up Thai. The whole walking on top of me. I was like, "What is happening?" You know, where they hold on to the bars and then they walk on you?

Gin Stephens: No, I've never had a massage therapist that did that.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "What is happening?" Then she started pulling out these tools and she was like, "I'm going to do these things." I was like, "Okay." Then, she started doing cupping which is fine, but my whole back looks I don't know, it still looks like really scary. I hope it goes away.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, no, I have a massage therapist that I go to. I'm very like, I'll find somebody and that's who I go to forever until something happens to them. So, I have a girl. Her name is Ginny and she's amazing and I go-- I go every four weeks. I just make my appointment. I used to go every six weeks, now I go every four weeks.

Melanie Avalon: I probably go four days a week.

Gin Stephens: Really to get a massage?

Melanie Avalon: To get a chair massage, a 15 or 20-minute one, and then there's like hour long massage. I probably go once a month.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I go once a month. I do 90 minutes once a month.

Melanie Avalon: Well, she was saying, she was like, "Next time you should come for 90 minutes," and I'm like, "Mm, I'm not--" [laughs] No, I'm not going.

Gin Stephens: But I just really liked the girl that I go to. She's fabulous. I just started going to her over the pandemic. I lost the person I had been going to, anyway long story. She was no longer available. So, I had to find to somebody new. My hairstylist recommended, you want to know somebody good, ask your hairstylist, because they know who's good.

Melanie Avalon: But yes. So, ZOE. I don't remember why we were talking about that. Oh, you've got a crick in your neck.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I have a crick in my neck. I'm not going to your girl.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. No, I was scared. I was like, "Oh my goodness, what if I--" I was like [unintelligible [00:35:17], "I wonder how many people have died during massage." Like somebody walking on them, and then accidentally stepping on their neck or something.

Gin Stephens: Crushing them?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, that sounds like a bad idea. I'm not down for that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm not. She gave me her number and her name. She's like, "You know, next time, you can come back?" I'm like, "Okay." I'm not going to do that. So, ZOE for listeners, is a very super cool program created by Tim Spector, who wrote Spoon-Fed and The Diet Myth, oh, which, by the way, my episode with him airs. While we're recording it, it airs this Friday. So, it will have come outs. If listeners would like to listen to my interview with Tim, which was incredible and amazing. We dive deep into the gut microbiome. We talked a lot about the ZOE program. I was really excited because I talked about this before on the show, but he was very open and transparent about how the way it's set up right now.

Gin Stephens: It's not perfected yet, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. People are doing low carb diets, for example, because of the temporarily--, is it called physiological insulin resistance? So, basically, when you're on a low carb diet, your body becomes a little bit insulin resistant if you are exposed to carbs, because it wants to basically save those carbs for the brain. So, the muscles become a little bit insulin resistant. It's transient, and it's temporary, and it's not-- it's benign, and it reverses really quickly. But the way to reverse it is to basically reintroduce carbs. So, he was saying that, they've even been wondering, should they have some accommodation for that for people who do the muffins after coming from a low carb diet?

Gin Stephens: Oh, good point. Yeah, that makes sense. Isn't he brilliant? He's a brilliant man.

Melanie Avalon: Because I asked him that. I was like, "What about people on low carb diets?" He was saying, "They're thinking about that," and he was saying in the future, "They might--" Oh, he's saying also like, "What they have a version of it that is low carb, basically." Oh and I asked my question that I had which was people who get bad fat clearance scores, might it actually be possible that they actually would do well on a low carb diet, which might be higher fat. Anyways, we talked about all of that. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But he created this program. If you've signed up for the CGM arm of it, you get a CGM, you eat these muffins, it measures your blood and fat clearance, like Gin and I just talked about, you do a gut microbiome test, which Gin and I just talked about. It is very, very cool. So, we'll put links in the show notes to it.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. So, that was a lot. [laughs] But also interesting. Oh, we have some feedback.

Melanie Avalon: We have some feedback from April, and the subject is "Yay." April says, "I'm so excited. I'm listening to Episode 216 and you answered my question on a morning window. Thank you and I have an update on it. I've been fasting now for a while and I'd say I have adjusted and I'm fat adapted. I was feeling really good in my morning window. I almost hit my goal and was starting to incorporate some ADF to try and push through to it. I was getting comments about how good I looked and how much younger I looked. But my husband was not liking me not eating with the family at dinnertime since that's when he's home, and that's our only family meal together. So, I again moved to a later window and started gaining weight and felt horrible. I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't "work for some people."

Because if I had only ever tried a later window, I would definitely say fasting doesn't work for me. I know you always say you will never stop fasting, but if I only knew the later window, I certainly would not want to continue fasting. Anyway, as a compromise, I sometimes eat dinner with the family and just do a shorter fast that day, and sometimes have my morning eating window. That's working for now. Thanks again, April."

Gin Stephens: It really illustrates that there is no one size fits all. When people ask me, "What's the best window?" I can't tell you. I can only tell you what window works well for me. What makes me feel the best, like Melanie and I were talking before we started recording, my aunt recently died. She was 94. She had a good life. She really did have a great life and I got to see her the week before she died, and connect with her, so that was nice. But we were at the funeral yesterday and it was a southern church funeral. Anybody who [laughs] has been to a southern church funeral, all the people of the church brought just amazing food. Like fresh corn from-- Amazing. So, I opened my window at noon.

Then, I had a second meal at my sister's, we had chili. So, I ate twice. I was so full, and tired, and sluggish all afternoon, and then I realized I only had a seven-and-a-half-hour window. It felt like such a long drawn out window to me. So, I feel better when I have an afternoon/evening eating window with one real meal in it. But that doesn't mean that everybody will. Like Melanie, you feel better with a late-night window. I would not feel good with a late-night window.

So, April, I love that you figured out that a morning window is really where you feel the best. Everyone who feels like, they can't find their ideal fasting time and eating time, tweak it till it feels good. That really is the key. April's body let her know that it didn't feel good when she tried to have the evening eating window. I love that that she figured it out.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, we're talking about ZOE. The feeling I had-- because for me, if I were to do earlier eating window and then have to fast after it's so miserable for me.

Gin Stephens: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: I had that thought while doing ZOE because you have to-- with the muffins, you've to eat one muffin, then you've to fast four hours, and then you've to eat another muffin, then you've to fast two hours. I just remember thinking like, "This is the hardest thing I've ever done." I fast every day for almost probably 20 hours, but fasting especially after having eaten something like this only muffin, but I was like, "Wow, this is "me trying to fast," and this is so hard." I was just thinking if this was my only experience with something that I perceived as "fasting," I'd be like, "This is the hardest thing ever. I can't do this." It would be the same reaction that April had.

Gin Stephens: Whenever I tried to have an early window like I would be fine. I would feel more sluggish, then I'd be fine. But then by the time 8 PM rolls around, I'm like starving, starving and miserable and have to eat. If I ate a really big meal at 9 AM, I'd be fine for a while. I wouldn't feel my best throughout the day, but I'd be okay. But then later, I would be so hungry, I would eat again. So, that would be that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The weird thing for me is like, I have to eat to fall asleep. Yeah, I do not sleep well on an empty stomach.

Gin Stephens: But I love what April said. She said, "I wonder if this is part of why fasting doesn't quite work for some people." Yeah, I have a feeling that if someone feels like it doesn't work, it's because they haven't found the plan that feels right to them yet.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: 90% of the time when someone tells me, "Fasting didn't work," I say, "What did you drink?" [laughs] during their fast and they tell me-- There's somebody local that is at this store that Chad I go to, and we went back in there the other day and she's like, "Hey, I tried that fasting thing and it didn't work for me." I'm like, "All right, well, first of all, how long did you give it?" She said, "One week." I'm like, "Well, okay, that wasn't really very long." I said, "What were you drinking?" She's like, "Well, I like to put sugar free creamer in my coffee." I'm like, "Well, okay, let's examine this." I said, "Did you by any chance get my book and read it?" She's like, "No." I'm like, "Well, I would start there. Try that." You got to understand the clean fast and she's very open to it. We had a great conversation, but she was not fast and clean, and she gave herself a week, and she felt terrible. But as I would predict that if you're drinking coffee with sugar free creamer for a week, you're going to feel awful. Oh, anyway, that was good feedback. Thank you, April.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you, April.

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Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Michelle, and the subject is "fasting insulin and fasting glucose." She says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie. I love listening to your podcast. Thank you for all you do. My question is about insulin and glucose. I've been doing IF for one and a half years now and I love it. I've always had high blood sugar since as long as I can remember. I was hoping that IF would help me with that, but it's still high. I just got bloodwork done last week and my fasting insulin was great. It was three, but my fasting blood glucose was 130 and my HbA1c was 6.3, which is what it's always been close to.

I'm just confused as to why my fasting insulin was so good, but my blood glucose in HbA1c were still so high. I try to eat low carb, but lately I would say I'm eating a moderate carb diet. I probably should eat low carb. I just don't like feeling restricted and I work out a lot. So, I justify being able to eat some carbs. Also, I find that when I have a few alcoholic drinks, I crave carbs like crazy, it's really strange. Thank you for your help," Michelle. I want to throw in there. Yeah, if I have too much alcohol, I start eating just everything that's around. It lowers my inhibitions to all food. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it can lower inhibitions and then it can also drop blood sugar. So, then you're craving carbs-- This is a great question from Michelle. I'm not prescribing this as this is what Michelle has. But this profile of low insulin, high blood sugar, high HbA1c, that's like type 2 diabetes realm. Because that's not having enough insulin to deal with carbs and always having high blood sugar and high HbA1c.

Gin Stephens: Yep, I was thinking that exact same thing. Not enough insulin to do the job.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. So, clearly, she got this done through a doctor. I'm really curious what her doctor thought about all of that. But this would be a situation, again, not a doctor, but I do think it's a concerning situation to be have those high fasting blood glucose and that high HbA1c, especially for--she said it's like been a thing for a long time. Ironically, so we often talk-- or I at least often talk about how you can potentially get really good insulin and blood sugar control on like high carb, low fat diets or things like that. But if you have this situation where you're not clearing carbs, I would work with a doctor, I would really consider maybe a low carb or a ketogenic diet. I would look into it further basically because it's a bit concerning.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There comes a point with type 2 diabetes where you're not controlling your blood sugar, so your body stops making so much insulin, right?

Melanie Avalon: Your beta cells and the pancreas are not producing insulin.

Gin Stephens: Right. Then, you would have a low level of insulin and you might think, "Oh, that's really good." But really that's not, not a good sign. We've said before, yeah, low fasted insulin is good, but not always, not if you've got other things. If it's low because your pancreas is not working properly then that's a different situation. So, yeah, I think low insulin and really high blood glucose is just like you said, Melanie, that's something that I would dig into, let your doctor figure out.

Melanie Avalon: Or I said type 2, it's really-- it would be type 1 diabetes.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's like type 2, you are type 2 and then it like-- Do they say that it converts to type 1? I don't really know what they say. Do they change your diagnosis when your pancreas is no longer working?

Melanie Avalon: Then there's also like type 3 diabetes.

Gin Stephens: It's like a progression. You know what I mean? I'm not an expert in this.

Melanie Avalon: There's like type 1.5.

Gin Stephens: But it's like a progression. You're type 2 diabetic because you have high levels of insulin, but then over time your pancreas stops working because it's burned out. I don't know that's not like the medical term for it, maybe it is. Then your pancreas stops functioning properly, and then you have to start-- you're type 2 diabetic, but now you're insulin dependent. So, basically, Michelle, it's really complicated. You see what we're talking in circles a little bit around it. We're not endocrinologists, and there's a lot of factors, and so I would work with a doctor or endocrinologist, somebody who can pinpoint this and see what's going on. Make sure your pancreas is functioning properly because as we both have said, we're not doctors, but you may not be producing enough insulin to get your glucose down.

Melanie Avalon: So, basically like type 1 is autoimmune related, so the beta cells are being attacked by the body and you're not producing the insulin that you need, and then type 2 is more lifestyle driven?

Gin Stephens: It progresses.

Melanie Avalon: Well, type 2 does not become type 1?

Gin Stephens: No, but type 2 progresses to the point that you are insulin dependent like my dad, okay? My dad, type 2 diabetic, eventually became insulin dependent.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Because it like wore out. That's where I was using the terminology. I don't know what the correct medical terminology is. But it's like it wore out his pancreas.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Either way, the presentation of low insulin, high blood glucose, high HbA1c would most likely signify. If you just put that on paper, that's what type 1 diabetes looks like compared to type 2 diabetes where you have high insulin, high blood sugar, high--

Gin Stephens: Right. Well, that's true. Unless you get to the point where your pancreas is not producing insulin at all, which that's the part that's-- [laughs] I don’t know what they call that. What do they call that?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. The insulin being low in the presence of the high blood sugar, high blood glucose, that would be like a presentation of type 1 diabetes. Regardless, I'm really curious what your doctor said. So, you might want to keep monitoring this and work with a doctor, and yeah, definitely monitor it. I'm glad she asked about it because I can see how this would be a major misconception because we talk so much about how low insulin is good. But the context is super key and if you have low insulin and you're not releasing enough insulin to deal with your carb load and it's building up that's a major problem.

Gin Stephens: Again, not doctors, but I did just real quick find a study called Mechanisms of Beta Cell Death in type 2 diabetes. I don't know what the exact terminology should be, but it definitely can happen as it progresses.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's actually-- and I just looked this up because I was thinking it was a thing. There's also type 1.5 diabetes and that's latent autoimmune diabetes in adults. It's the one that shares characteristics of both type 1 and type 2. It's usually diagnosed during adulthood, it sets in gradually, like type 2, but unlike type 2, it's actually an autoimmune disease and that's where your beta cells stop functioning. So, I am not diagnosing but you might want to approach your doctor with curiosity about type 1.5 diabetes.

Gin Stephens: But if you get a fasted insulin level that's low, and your blood glucose is low, your fasted blood glucose and A1c is good, that's not something to worry about. It's only when insulin is low and your glucose is high that you might be like, "Huh." Your body, if it were working properly would pump out more insulin to lower your blood sugar because that's what your body wants to do. That's how it's designed to work. So, something's keeping it from doing that.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right, we talked around and around that one.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I did a Q&A episode. I recorded it. I haven't released it yet with NutriSense CGM with Kara Collier there and she's the founder. I learned so much about the studies about different levels and if you have certain spikes how that correlates to health and longevity. It was really, really fascinating. So, I don't think it'll be out by the time this airs. Point of all that is that it's very fascinating what we can learn from blood sugar levels and HbA1c. But in any case, something is definitely going on here with the insulin.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: All right. Do we have time for one more quick one?

Melanie Avalon: So, we have question from John. The subject is "fasting," and John says, "Hello, my name is John. I'm 57 years young, and I've been doing intermittent fasting for 31 days now. I do the 16:8. I eat mostly vegetables with about four to five ounces of protein per meal if I can. My eating window is from noon until eight. I've had increased energy, but for the last couple of days seemed to be getting tired around 3 o'clock. Should I go from 16:8 to 18:6? I'm losing weight on the 16:8, but I don't know if I should make my fast longer. What do you think? I'm reading Fast. Feast. Repeat. Great book," John.

Gin Stephens: Thank you, John, and it's been about a month since you wrote this question. So, hopefully you pushed through that. But this is what we find as your body's getting to the end of the adjustment period. Very, very common. Whenever that might be, you've been having an eight-hour window. So, as you get to the end of the adjustment period, your body is about ready to flip that metabolic switch. It's very, very typical to have like a lull, and they're like a feeling of decreased energy, like you're moving around through Jell-O a little bit, and then you get to the other side, and there's ketosis, and then you feel better, and there's the energy, again.

You asked if you should go from 16:8 to 18:6, you know, that was one way to push through. Just give yourself just a little more fasting to push through that, and then it's so much better on the other side. There's classic adjustment period description right there. The reason it took John, 31 days, because he's been doing 16:8. Had he been doing 19:5, he might have hit that wall in week two to three. It just really depends on your own personal metabolic factors, so many factors. Some people might not get that adjustment phase lull till week six.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect.

Gin Stephens: You were doing keto before, right? You were already fat adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It's the same with me. I went from summer of 2014, I had been doing keto all summer, we've talked about this before. So, I was fat adapted from keto from the fat from the keto, but not losing any weight. Then, I reintroduced carbs and started intermittent fasting and then bam. So, I didn't have a lull. That was the only time I was able to stick to it too. I felt so much better with the fasting and adding back in the carbs, and I immediately started to see weight loss of about a pound a week. But I was already fat adapted. So, yep.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you have your own questions for the show, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode239. Those show notes will have a full transcript. So, super helpful and we will put links to everything that we talked about. Then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is all of the things.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Anything from you, Gin.

Gin Stephens: No. I got nothing.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Oh, I will say, I'm very happy. The weather seems to maybe be getting a little bit cooler, maybe?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I'm not.

Melanie Avalon: All right. [laughs] I was so excited.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to the beach next week. So, I hope it's warm.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I'm so excited. Have fun.

Gin Stephens: I don't care if it's warm. It's still the beach. I'm still going to look at it and hear the ocean and I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon: I'm ready for it to be freezing.

Gin Stephens: No, no.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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