Category Archives for "Intermittent Fasting"

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Jun 12

Episode 269: Heavy Meals, H. Pylori, Digestive Enzymes, HCL, Modified Keto, OMAD, Lowering Fat, Measuring The Fast, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 269 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free BACON For LIFE Plus $10!!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Support Your Health With Delicious USDA Organic Beauty & The Broth Bone Broth! It's Shelf Stable With No Preservatives, And No Salt Added. Choose Grass Fed, Grass Finished Beef, Or Free Range, Antibiotic And Hormone-Free Chicken, or Their NEW Organic Vegan Mushroom Broth Concentrate! The Concentrated Packets Are 8x Stronger Than Any Cup Of Broth: Simply Reconstitute With 8 Ounces Of Hot Water. They’re Convenient To Take Anywhere On The Go, Especially Travel! Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free BACON For LIFE Plus $10!!

Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Listener Q&A: alexa - IF foods

Listener Q&A: Leah - Coffee Differences

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Trina - Keto AND OMAD question

Summary of Women, Food, And Hormones: A 4-Week Plan to Achieve Hormonal Balance, Lose Weight, and Feel Like Yourself Again (Sara Gottfried, M.D.)

MenuPause: Five Unique Eating Plans to Break Through Your Weight Loss Plateau and Improve Mood, Sleep, and Hot Flashes (Anna Cabeca, DO)

#157 – AMA #22: Losing fat and gaining fat: the lessons of fat flux

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 269 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get sugar free, nitrate free, heritage breed bacon for life, plus $10 off. Yes, free bacon for life, plus $10 off. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that's really hard to find by the way, and wild caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding grazing practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished that's really hard to find. They work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now, I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood, the value is incredible, the average cost is actually less than $6 per meal, and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, “This is honestly one of the best steaks I've ever had in my entire life.” On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks. And their bacon, for example is from pastured pork, and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? I'm super excited, because ButcherBox’ bacon for life is back and it's even better, because you get $10 off as well. Yep, right now, new members will get one pack of free bacon in every box for the life of your membership, plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's one pack of free bacon in every box for the rest of your life, plus $10 off. Just go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. And we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense, because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly, one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check on my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products. Deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. And you can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 269 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you today, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well other than two surly teenage boys.

Melanie Avalon: When did they get out for school?

Cynthia Thurlow: Officially on June 2nd. We've already had the award ceremonies, and I'm happy to report they had high academic honors, which was awesome. But they are teen boys and they did not permit any photos to be taken of them. And so, all the friends of mine that have daughters, there were pictures of the family, and their awards, and my kids, no, not so much. I took pictures from far away and I just decided I was like, “There are battles worth fighting and this is not one I choose to fight.” But yeah, they will officially be out on June 2nd and I'm pretty excited. This is really their first full year of school in two years, to be physically in school, the entire school year.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the pandemic has definitely-- It's not just my kids, it's every child, every family has been impacted by the pandemic. For me, I'm just so grateful that they were in school for an entire year. Things that you take for granted that we never imagined we would have two years of or a solid year of being at home and being in school, and then partial back to school last year. So, I'm just grateful they got to be in school with their peers, part of the year unmasked, then they've been doing really well, despite all the stress and the drama of the last two years.

Melanie Avalon: I'm getting flashbacks now. There's something so glorious and wonderful when you are growing up and summer vacation. It is just so exciting. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's done and to be honest with you as a parent, I always really, really looked forward to mid-May, because all of a sudden, the sports were over, [unintelligible [00:09:40] education was over, it was like the carpool nonsense that all parents go through just stops. And so, they would just go to school, and they would come home, and it was just a lot more togetherness, and they're probably getting more sleep, and my husband and I are obviously spending less time driving back and forth between multiple sports. It gives you a prelude to what the summer is going to be like. For me, I'm very much the kind of mom where I let my kids sleep in. They have chores, but I like them to actually decompress. I'm not super strict as long as they get their work done. I know that may be a departure from some families that are listening, but I've just come to understand like, “My kids do really well in school and they're good kids.” I let them do a lot of decompression activities during the summer.

When they were younger and they had to be in a structured activity, because they had so much energy, and they needed an outlet. Now, it's more thinking about what college does my oldest one to apply to. He's leading into STEM curriculum. Looking at AP classes and it's so different. You really develop a very different relationship with your kids as they're getting older and so, it's also to me picking my battles, So, it's less about keeping them under my thumb, and forcing them to do so many hours of reading every day, and now, it's a different playing field.

Melanie Avalon: That's very much the way I was raised as well. My parents were like that. Of course, I was very on top of things. I remember for summer reading, I would read the books a minimum of two times, sometimes more, which looking back, I'm like, “Why did I do that? Why did I read The Hobbit twice after already having read it” in the past as well?

Cynthia Thurlow: That doesn't surprise me that you would be a willing overachiever. Not someone who's doing it for any other reason than to thoroughly be invested, and really understand, and comprehend what you're reading. I love that we both share that although, we would not have been in school at the same time together. I do love that we are both very cerebral and enjoy-- Just enjoyed learning. What a blessing that is, right?

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of, Gin and I used to always talk about, “Would we be friends in high school and will we be at the same lunch table?” We decided that we might be, but probably not, probably slightly different lunch tables. Which lunch table were you at in high school?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's ironic that in high school and in college, I was part of a very popular crew. However, in my popular career, there was the subcategories of popular girls and I was part of the smart girls that got good grades, and weren't promiscuous, and had boyfriends, but we were nice to people. To me, at that stage, it was actually cool to be smart, whereas the people who were the creme de la creme popular people didn't care about school. I just stayed focused on like, “I want to go to college, and I want to do this, and I want to do that, and I know I'm not going to stay in this school.” But I was always nice to everyone. I was also vice president of my class and captain of back in the day I played field hockey. To me, it was important to just be kind and nice to people. Yeah, my kids cannot believe that I was popular. They're like, “You're so dorky and nerdy,” and I'm like, “Oh, but it's all in the down low. No one knows that unless they know me well." How about you? I would imagine you were like top in your class and super, super, super smart.

Melanie Avalon: There's the honors English class and it was basically the really intellectual “smart kids.” But it was similar. It had some popular people from the popular crowd in it. It was just like the nice, smart people. That was my main group. Yeah, I really excelled academically. You probably would have been at my school in the honors English group class. But you would have been in the popular like the popular people who are in the honors class.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's funny because I had this not so nice high school boyfriend. When I look back and he used to call it the nerd herd. He would make fun of the fact that I was in AP classes and honors classes, and I was like, “Who ended up doing better?” Looking at where he is and where I am, and let me be clear, I'm friends with his wife, and his mom, and his sister. I have a very nice relationship with all them. But I look back that he would like tease me and I was like, “There's nothing to be ashamed of for being smart. Smart people run the world.” That's my feeling. It's good to be smart.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. By the way you interviewed Robb Wolf again, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. He's so wonder-- It’s such an easy interview because he's just so gracious and humble. With my cardiology background, we’ve talked a lot about electrolytes and we did talk about overtraining, because I know and I'm very aligned with his perspectives on the overtraining goes along with the over restriction of food, goes along with over fasting, goes along with plateaus. We did touch on that which was really important to me, because I wanted him to also know, there are clearly people that go overboard with all of the above, but it was a really nice conversation. It was nice for someone else to talk about the value of electrolytes and not just me saying, “Oh, by the way, I worked for 16 years in cardiology and I got really, really good at replacing electrolytes.” I got really good at replacing electrolytes and no one really wants to hear about that because it seemingly seems so insignificant, but yet, it's so important. I was actually saying, “Robb, I had surgery almost a month ago” and I knew that my body was going to take a hit, because of this orthopedic surgery, and I was telling him, I said “My HRV, my heart rate variability has really been in the toilet.” [laughs] Clearly, as well as I'm sleeping, my body still perceives, there's all this ongoing stress and my cortisol levels must still be dysregulated. I said, “I just kept adding more sodium and they kept coming down.” I said, “It's just so amazing, something so simple.” It can be so helpful. So, yes, Robb was amazing. Then the other guests that I had most recently that really just-- I'm still in such awe of my conversation with Sara Gottfried, which I know you interviewed her recently as well and she's just so-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: We pushed it. So, it's in a few weeks.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, sorry. Well, mine just dropped. When I was listening to it, I feel so very grateful as I know you do that we have platforms in which we can connect with such profoundly influential individuals in the space and be able to share all of their wisdom with the world.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I am so, so excited to interview her. It's really exciting.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's so smart.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this upcoming week for me is actually unique. I'm only going on a podcast. I don't actually have an interview, but I'm scrambling. Every now and then, I have a little panic moment where like, “How am I going to prep everything?” But [chuckles] then I take a moment and I breathe. I'm really excited about the lineup. Oh, that's the next person I'm interviewing, Mark Sisson.

Cynthia Thurlow: No way.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: Did you sacrifice your firstborn child?

Melanie Avalon: Basically. [chuckles]

Cynthia Thurlow: I say that very lovingly. The facetious future born child, I'm like, “That's awesome.”

Melanie Avalon: That's going to be a really, really surreal moment, because it's surreal anyways with all the people that I get to interview, but really there's a handful of people that are the people I've been following from day one. It's basically Robb, Mark Sisson, Dave Asprey, probably those three. Yeah, and I haven't interviewed Mark.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so cool. Did I tell you that a couple years ago, I literally ran into him because I wasn't looking where I was walking.

Melanie Avalon: No way.

Cynthia Thurlow: And he could not have been more polite. I remember, I was so like, “Oh, my God, I just ran into Mark Sisson” and he was so polite.

Melanie Avalon: I got connected to him through Brad Kearns, who I'm pretty good friends with who's coauthor. And so, I've been talking with Brad about what direction to take the interview, because there're so many ways you could go, but I think I might focus more on him. His personal life, because he's done so many businesses, and I would just love to hear all about that rather than focusing on the primal stuff as much.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's so exciting. I'm so excited for you. It's interesting because a lot of these people when you've been following them for a long period of time, that's how I felt about Sara Gottfried in addition to the other people you mentioned. When I was talking to her, I was trying not to fan girl. I was really nervous. I told my husband, I was sweating, I tried to be as cool as I could be, [laughs] but to actually meet some of these people that we've been following for years, and valuing the message and methodology of their brands and their vision and to me its-- I tell everyone all the time like one of my greatest blessings in my business is being able to podcast because as you've said it's the best way to network. You just don't even realize how important it is until you get in a position where you either meet someone in real life and you're like, “Oh, my gosh.” I mean, you really do become friends and acquaintances with so many of these people. We're all trying to positively impact lives in a way that leaves people better off and to me, it's so amazing. So, I love that you-- That was probably a year or two ago, you're like, “Podcasting is the best way to network” and I was like, “Oh, my God, that's exactly what it is.”

Melanie Avalon: Because it's basically conversations that aren't superficial, because they're deep conversations where you're talking about their work, and you're really connecting, and then you're just doing that regularly, and it's all the amazing people. So, I'm just so grateful. I'm really in awe.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and for anyone who doesn't know this about you, I do know this about you. I probably spend five to 10 hours per each podcast, just organizing, listening to other podcasts, trying to get a sense for what the person's like. Melanie is next level, because she is graciously on a few times shared her notes and they are so detailed. For anyone that's listening, you have no idea. When Melanie says she's preparing, she's preparing to go do a doctoral dissertation. She's so well prepared. If you don't know that about her, you should know that about her. So, as I say, you always encourage me to level up how I prepare and how I get ready for my own podcasts.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you so much. I echo that back to you as well, because I feel there are a lot of podcasts out there. and there are a lot of people who don't prepare, and do just show up, and I get the exact same sense from you with the preparation. So, yeah, it's a good place to be.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I can tell you now that I've been on the other side having had a book launch, the people that were prepared, I really appreciated that because you get to a point where you're just doing so much press that you're exhausted. I remember, there were weeks where I was doing 12 to 15 podcasts a week on top of other media and you were like, “Where do I need to show up and what am I talking about?” You were just showing up, and being yourself, and being enthusiastic, and I would have people, they're like, “Yeah, I haven't really read your book and just tell me what you want to talk about?” I was like, “What?” [laughs] I was like, “Not even a skim, not even read the appendix or read the table of contents anything.” When there's no judgement, sometimes, I was like, “Oh, man, this is going to be harder than I thought.”

Melanie Avalon: When people ask me basically to provide all the questions for the interview. I still do it and I'm so grateful, but I appreciate it much more, like you said, when it's really evident that they've read the book, and they come with the questions, and everything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting, because I interviewed Dr. Avrum Bluming and Carol Tavris about their book, Estrogen Matters. It was funny. After we recorded, they both said to me, “Cynthia, your assistant reached out to us and asked us to tell you what we wanted to talk about.” They were taken aback and they said, “But now that we've met you, we understand that you really just wanted to make sure that you are aware of what we thought was most important.” But by the same token, you did so much prep work like that podcast, I probably spent more time on than anyone I've done this entire year, because I felt the Women's Health Initiative as an example, had led so many clinicians and patients to be fearful of hormone replacement therapy and I was like, “I know, I've got this platform.” So, I think in most instances, I really endeavor to think about how do I ensure that person knows I value their time, but also let them know like, “I'm in the game, and I'm super prepped, and I've read all your stuff, and I've outlined, and I've listened to podcasts to just to get a sense.”

I just interviewed the head researcher for HVMN and he was so delightful. He was like a Rick Johnson-esque person. So enthusiastic, so excited. He was able to translate the science into layman's terminology and that was such a joy, and I was like, “Wow.” I was so surprised. I instantly liked him and I thought to myself, “This is what's so awesome to be in this space.” We can actually have these opportunities to take real research and make it relatable for the average person, because that's really the platform that I think we're both on, although obviously you're on a biohacking platform and I'm on a 35 and up trying to translate how to navigate our lives without too much stress and distress.

Melanie Avalon: Two thoughts to that. One, so, the way I tackle getting the vibe of what they want to talk about while also having them know that I value their time, I just in the intake form, all of the questions are optional and there's just one question that says, “Are there any topics in particular you'd like to talk about?” Rather than asking like, “What questions you want me to answer?” It's just very open, I feel that accomplishes that goal, at least for me.

Cynthia Thurlow: I may have to borrow that. Of course, with credit given to you.

Melanie Avalon: No, I don’t need. No credit needed. I probably took it from somebody else. The second thought was, I was listening as per usual last night to a Peter Attia episode and they were talking about, it was one of the Q&As and the cohost was saying, how he always will reach out. When he read studies, if he has questions, he'll literally just email the researchers on the studies. The majority of the time they always answer and usually are really excited to talk about the studies. So, I was like, “I should start doing that.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting is, so, Dr. Bluming, who I just bow at his feet, his book is so amazing, and he sends me updates. He just did an editorial for a journal and sent me the update and I was like, “Thank you so much. I can't wait to read it.” I meant it genuinely, because he's helping to change the narrative, and the discussions around, and the fears around prescribing and taking hormones. I was like, “He's doing amazing, amazing things.” Yeah, they love to talk about that stuff.

Melanie Avalon: And for listeners, this is Cynthia's Everyday Wellness Podcast.

Cynthia Thurlow: That podcast dropped in February and as you know, I'm a big nerd. I like to look at my metrics. Number one for the year thus far is Megan Ramos and then, Rick Johnson.

Melanie Avalon: I'm interviewing her in a few months.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, there's no comparison. Her downloads are way more than anyone else's. And also who else is in there? Dr. Bluming is in there. So, clearly, these are concepts and methodologies that are really relating to people, which I think is great. Yeah, but Rick Johnson's amazing,

Melanie Avalon: I should look at my stats and see which ones were the biggest.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I trend it. I don't know if it makes me, like, it just allows me to see who do I want to bring back, what really resonates, what was a do-do? I think sometimes, you do a great interview, and it just doesn't resonate with your listeners, and you're like, “Gosh, that was surprising.” And then sometimes something that you-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: Or, the reverse. Yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: Correct? [laughs] That happens, the unicorns are like, “Where did that come from?”

Melanie Avalon: For me, I have genuinely, because people will ask me, I think actually, you've asked me before like, “Has there ever been an episode that I didn't want to air or didn't really like?” I can genuinely say, I have really loved every single interview that I've done. But sometimes, I do an interview and I love it, but I just don't know if the topic or the content will really resonate. Yeah, sometimes, I'm really surprised that they freak out and [chuckles] love it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I've only had three and almost four years of podcasting that I had to toss in the toilet, which is always disappointing. But I was like, “Sometimes, you just don't get a good interview.” You could have someone that's super smart and they're just not easy to interview or they go off on a tangent that is so not aligned with your own methodology that you're like, “I can't release this, because it would be a problem.” But yeah, I think that's how you just navigate knowing what your audience really wants to hear and resonate with.

Melanie Avalon: Definitely. Well, before we jump in, I have one really quick baby teaser and this is going to be such a vague teaser. But for listeners, I am so excited because in creating supplements now, there are a few supplements that I really want to create, but I don't know if I can, or it might be tricky, or things with like FDA regulations and such. So, this is just a baby teaser that I found out yesterday or the day before that one of the main supplements I want to make that I thought we couldn't, we probably are going to be able to, because we might have an FDA approved version. So, I get really excited.

Cynthia Thurlow: Now, I can’t wait to hear more.

Melanie Avalon: For listeners, if you'd like to know what that is, definitely get on my supplement email list because that's where I will be announcing the news. Also, I keep getting questions literally every day about when am I going to be releasing my magnesium supplement. The email list for all the information is avalonx.us/emaillist.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Let's jump in.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Alexa and the subject is: “IF foods.” Alexa says, “Hello, ladies. I'm on my second week of IF clean and I'm loving it. I tried IF last year, but was not doing it correctly as I was still putting creamer in my coffee. I recently found your podcast and I'm hooked. My question is regarding the type of foods I'm consuming after I break my fast, which I've decided to begin with a 16:8. I find that sometimes, I get hungry early between 9:30 to 10 AM, then it goes away. I noticed once I get past noon, sometimes, I can push through to about 1:00 to 1:30 PM usually, because I'm busy working. But I seem to gravitate towards a heavy lunch. For example, a tuna melt, bag of chips and water, or sometimes, I'll have Mexican tacos that are super delicious. Typically, carne asada or other type of meat. I am just wondering if I should be careful about breaking my fast was such heavy food. Also, sometimes, I don't get too hungry for dinner, so I'll have a light dinner. Do you have suggestions on how to eat correctly when IFing. I forgot to mention that I also work out three to four times a week. Thank you and sorry for all the rambling.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Alexa, I think first and foremost, just the fact that you're asking if you need to break your fast with a lighter meal demonstrates to me that you're already thinking that might be a problem. I typically recommend that you break your fast like maybe start with some bone broth as a light alternative or a light salad, and then perhaps, have a less complicated meal like maybe you're having some chicken, or some steak, or you're going to have a bison burger, or you're having a piece of fish with some vegetables like non-starchy vegetables, because it could very well be that between the mayonnaise, and the cheese, and I don't know if you're making the Mexican tacos or buying them out, you can be exposed to seed oils. It might just be overwhelming your digestive processes. So, that's my first thought is break your fast with something lighter and less fat dense that might be part of it.

The other thing is, depending on where you are in your cycle, so, I don't know if you're still menstruating. I am an advocate of women. You can get away with intermittent fasting for usually the first three weeks of your cycle. But if you're within a week of getting your menstrual cycle or bleed week, then I typically recommend you back off. The fact that you are feeling like you're having such a heavy meal and then you're not really hungry for your second meal makes me concerned that you may not be hitting your protein macros. For anyone who is new to listening to me on the podcast, I'm all about protein, protein, protein. We really need it for so many reasons. One of them is satiety and other one is to have adequate muscle protein synthesis. Hitting those protein macros is going to be really important. So, I would probably recommend you start with a lighter meal when you break your fast, so that it'll allow you to get in enough protein between your two regular meals during your fasting window.

Melanie Avalon: That reminded me of the interview that I did have in the interim since we talked which was Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who is as well all about the protein, and really, really knows the science of it, and why it's so important. I really can't wait to air that. I agree with everything that you said. I like what you said about the fact that she's asking means that she might be intuitively on to something. I do think that this is something pretty intuitive because we are really, really unique everybody, individually. Some people can handle having a big bolus of food and be fine, and some people are delicate butterflies, and need to really take a more measured approach like Cynthia said with maybe breaking with bone broth, or something more gentle. I found for me, I break my fast, I post about this all the time on Instagram so people know, with cucumbers and wine, but then I move into a really heavy meal, actually. But I do slowly ease into it. I will say, if you are eating heavier--

I don't know if we need to define what heavy mean, because on the one hand, you could have a meal like I eat, where it's a huge amount of protein, which would seem like a “heavy meal.” But it's not necessarily heavy in the sense that it's a lot of mixed macros, and fat, and processed foods and that type of heavy. I think heavy can mean different things. Mine's just heavy in a mechanical sense and that protein requires a lot of energy to break down. There's a reason it has the highest thermogenic effect of any food. You “burn” about 30% of the calories and protein just by breaking it down because it does require a lot of digestion and energy to do that. All that to say if you do want to eat “heavier meals” and find that you're not digesting it well, you might want to consider HCI supplementation and/or digestive enzymes. That might be something that can really help. I've always been really fascinated in the ordering of it, because the natural digestion process would happen in a certain order. So, basically, we release stomach acid first, HCl and then later as the food moves into the intestines that's where enzymes process that. I've always been a little bit haunted about just there needs to be a certain order to it. I've asked a lot of guests this and I get different answers. But the way I do things is I use HCI first in my meal and then I add digestive enzymes afterwards. So, that might be something to consider. I don't necessarily think there's a correct way, but we are really individual and it's good to be intuitive.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, this is just my little clinician caveat that in the past two years, I have not done one GI-MAP, maybe one or two out of hundreds of women that hasn't had H. pylori. I tend to be a little more conservative with recommending betaine or HCl, because if someone has an active or unknown H. pylori infection, that can actually exacerbate symptoms. I would say that under normal circumstances, I think digestive supports are great. But I think of in the hierarchy, digestive enzymes are pretty benign, but I tend to be a little bit more conservative about HCI just in case someone has H. pylori, which, if you're not familiar what that is, it's opportunistic organism that sometimes in the setting of low hydrochloric acid can flourish. And so, I'm just seeing so much of it now on GI-MAPS, which is a DNA based stool test that I'm tending to be really conservative with HCl until I have testing. So, I agree with everything that you're saying.

However, that how we define a heavy meal might be different to each one of us, but I define a heavy meal is something that's going to be harder on our body to digest. If you're not making the tuna melt, you don't know what the ingredients are, if you're not making those Mexican tacos, you don't know what seed oils are being used and so, that could be contributing to why it's feeling like you're having a little bit of a digestive backup or just feeling very full. The other thing is if you're sleepy after a meal that could be a sign that not only is it too large of a meal, but you might have eaten enough carbohydrate that you're getting some degree of blood sugar dysregulation. If that persists, you may want to check your blood sugar. I think that's certainly really reasonable. Glucometers are very inexpensive, but your blood sugar should come back to baseline within two hours of eating ideally, just a thought.

Melanie Avalon: Question about the H. pylori. So, it flourishes in low HCI environment or high HCI environment?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, low. Because it's like anything. We start producing less hydrochloric acid as we get older. It's much more common to see HCI flourishing, because it's the first line of defense. Hydrochloric acid is designed to kill things. If you have inadequate levels and certainly it gets depleted, you can get HCI depletion just from not having enough precursors like certain types of zinc. I remind people that until proven otherwise, until I know someone definitely doesn't have H. pylori, and this is just my own clinical environment. My sometimes will hold off on doing HCl, but there's certainly other things you can do to help support digestion. As you mentioned, digestive enzymes are great. I'm just seeing so much H. pylori now, I think it has a lot to do with the impact of stress on the gut microbiome. That's been my working hypothesis that the doctors at the GI-MAP lab agree with, because I've never seen so much H. pylori, never.

Melanie Avalon: Wouldn't taking HCI benefit that then?

Cynthia Thurlow: You have to kill the infection. You remove what doesn't belong and think about it this way. If you are getting H. pylori and you're taking a stool sample, it's gotten from the stomach through the entire digestive system, small intestine, large intestine, into the rectum and expelled. Whatever amount you're seeing quantified on DNA based technology is actually higher. We eradicate first and then we go to supplementation with HCl. But it's usually created in a low hydrochloric acid environment and that's oftentimes related to age-related changes or people don't have the cofactors to be able to create enough hydrochloric acid. That's where I go from, and that's what I was taught, and it's definitely been my clinical experience to see that that you want to make sure that you're not addressing HCI issues if someone has H. pylori.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I'm still not following. If the problem with H. pylori is low HCl because of the ulcers.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, there's many different types of H. pylori, and so some are prone to precancerous lesions, they can lead to certain types of duodenal ulcers, etc. When you do the testing, especially the type of testing I mentioned, it'll help you differentiate if they have any of the pathologic cofactors that go along with it. But here's the thing. If HCl is at a proper level, you should not have an issue with H. pylori. It's in the setting of a low hypochlorhydria. In that setting that is when you can make this opportunistic opportunity for things not to get killed off, that could be a parasite that you ingest. And yes, it is as horrifying as it is to think. We ingest a lot of things and we are dependent on this first line of defense in our stomach to have enough hydrochloric acid to kill things off. But what I see in most women that I work with is that they do not have optimal levels of hydrochloric acid and therefore, it bypasses this first line of defense. We should not have H. pylori in our stomach. Certainly, not at detectable levels. With DNA based stool testing, you are seeing signs of a mechanism that could be also a reflection of the impact of stress on the gut microbiome, because we know that impacts immune function as well.

Melanie Avalon: So, the reason not to take the HCl is, so that you can test and see if you have H. pylori.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that's one of the reasons. But that’s also, sometimes, people will start H. pylori and they all of a sudden get reflux, or they're burping a lot, or they're nauseous, or they're bloated and so.

Melanie Avalon: They start HCl or they start--?

Cynthia Thurlow: It can exacerbate their symptoms from H. pylori. Sometimes, it can be very subtle. They might just have bloating and they just assume bloating is normal like, “Oh, I had dairy and I'm bloated” or “Oh, I had some gluten and that's why I'm bloated.” But it could in fact be related to imbalance in the gut microbiome. There's a lot to unpack here, but certainly H. pylori is an opportunistic infection and more often than not it is attributable to a low HCI environment in the stomach.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. [chuckles] I'm just not understanding if it's attributable to low HCl, what is the reason for not taking HCI?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because you have to kill the infection, you remove what does not belong before you start adding digestive support like that. This is a clinical thing like this is a best practice thing. This is something that I learned in school and has been the case I don't start hydrochloric acid, unless I'm sure someone has cleared H. pylori. You think about digestion from a north to south process, what's in the stomach, you have to address what's there before you address Candida, or a parasite, or dysbiosis, or any other worms, which occasionally come up on diagnostic testing. You start north to south and so, you have to eradicate what does not belong in the stomach before you start addressing things that are going on lower in the digestive system.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. So, I just really want to understand what you're saying. To resay what you just said, you need to address these infections before you work on digestive support as a solution.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you want to. Before you prescribe or recommend HCl, you want to make sure they don't have H. pylori. That's where it stems from. If they don't have H. pylori, you could absolutely start hydrochloric acid. More often than not, people will see improvement in protein and amino acid breakdown. For many people that can be a simple fix to why they struggle with a protein bolus. But I always like to be thinking as a clinician and that's one of those things I always say, more often than not hydrochloric acid is pretty benign. However, here's my caveat in my clinical experience. “You want to be careful about dosing it if you haven't already ruled out H. pylori.” There's just so much of it. I have seen more in the past two years than I've seen the last 10 years. That's how much I've seen.

Melanie Avalon: Is that an easy test? Can people ask their practitioner for that test or would it be a GI doc that normally does that? I know you're not a GI.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would say it's someone that's functionally or integrative medicine trained. For me, before I started working with the DUTCH, I think the GI-MAP is one of the best tests I've worked with, because it's a starting point. It's been my experience that most primary care providers, internists, and most traditionally trained gastroenterologists are not using it. Because it's not part of that allopathic medical model. It doesn't mean that it's not valuable, but for a lot of people they do pay out of pocket. That can be something that's limiting. I've had people come to me who've been to their traditional, they've done the GI workup, they've had breath testing for H. pylori, and I tell everyone, the gold standard is stool. The best way to rule out H. pylori as disgusting as it is because think about it. H. pylori is in the stomach. If you get a positive test with stool that means it made it all the way.

Melanie Avalon: So, it won't find the dead DNA?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you're shutting it. It's really going in with testing. I can send you some of the information, so you can learn more about the testing. But it's been one of those things that that amount of shutting, if you get it all the way into your stool is pretty significant. I always say to people like, “Yeah, the numbers not all that high, however.” [laughs] We weren't going into your stomach and taking the sample there. Breath testing is not as reliable. If anyone's listening and they've had that testing, I oftentimes will say, “Gold standard is stool.” It's not impossible to get it done. You just have to advocate. For a lot of people that are experiencing reflux, and heartburn, and burping, and belching, they're put on proton pump inhibitors, which in and of themselves have a lot of long-term health complications. I say this with respect, because we put everyone in the hospital on Protonix, which is a PPI. But the more I learned about how important stomach acid is, we're actually making it worse by putting people on these drugs long term.

Melanie Avalon: I cannot agree more. I've had that stool test and I've had-- Do they test for H. pylori when they do endoscopies?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they can do little samples and send them off. And obviously, that's up close and personal. Think about it in the hierarchy of costs, it's much more cost effective to do a stool test versus an invasive procedure. But sometimes, you need the invasive procedure. If they're in there, they can do a biopsy or testing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Awesome. All right, shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is from Leah. Subject is: “Coffee differences.” “Hello, I wrote before with a question, but now, I have another one. I'm listening to an episode, where a listener asked about teeth whitening strips and it made me think of the time, Gin said, she had black coffee from McDonald's and it made her shaky. Now, I stopped getting flavored roast and only finished off my current stock of flavored roast during my window once I started fasting. My question is that besides the flavored roast, by flavored, things like hazelnut, toffee, winter mint, etc., how would we who are still relatively new to IF know if black coffee effects are fast in a bad way like McDonald's did for Gin? I buy whole bean coffee from Gobena, a not-for-profit that sends its proceeds to help orphans around the world and partners with adoptive families to help them fundraise and have been getting the Yirgacheffe light roast instead of the flavor roasted beans. I grind them at home and send about half of a five-pound bag overseas to my fiancé, who has also started fasting with me. He already liked his coffee black, so, no trouble there. What could have made that McDonald's coffee different? How could we find out? I want to fast clean, but the sheer relief. I could keep coffee even if I just stopped putting cacao in it during the fast was so nice. You gals will never run out of things to talk about on the podcast. We'll always have questions. Leah.”

Melanie Avalon: All right, Leah. Well, thank you so much for your question. I do remember when we were talking about this, and so, I looked up the McDonald's coffee and it is just coffee. There're no additives. I thought this was interesting. They say there's the potential of a dairy allergy. I'm guessing that's cross contamination from they're assuming with the coffee machine that it's possible that dairy could get into it. That's what I'm guessing rather than from the source. I don't know. It could be a few things. One, there's the whole movement of mold free coffee like the Bulletproof coffee with Dave Asprey. Do you drink coffee, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not drink coffee. However, in our house, we have Purity and we have a company called Square Feet, and the latter of which is a very small like home-based business, but the man who runs it is very OCD about mycotoxins and tests multiple different ways. So, that's typically what we have in our house and what I generally recommend.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. We will put links in the show notes to these coffees. The show notes by the way will be at ifpodcast.com/episode269. My coffee intake, I literally have a sip every morning. It's very, very small, but I drink Dave Asprey’s Bulletproof coffee because of the mycotoxins and mold issue. I've also used Ben Greenfield’s Kion coffee in the past. But people who react to these mycotoxins and mold, I think it can really be a thing. I think it could create that shaky affected people. So, it could be that. I don't know what else it would be. Do you have thoughts about it, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think the concern about mycotoxins is a real issue, but I just can't imagine that McDonald's quality would be-- Who knows what else it's cross contaminated with. Could it have been blood sugar dysregulation, could have been a spike in cortisol? Because we know in some people coffee or whether it's the polyphenols, we know that you can get some appreciable cortisol dysregulation, which is going to raise your blood sugar, which is going to raise insulin. The shakiness could have been from a few different things. But certainly, quality is important. And so, it sounds Leah’s makes a very conscientious effort to select a product that sounds it's probably high quality. But I always think mycotoxins until proven otherwise, because coffee beans are readily known to be a mold sensitive or mold prone product, just like peanuts and legumes and things like that. So, that's probably where I would lean first. Yeah, I agree with you.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay. We have a question from Trina and the subject is: “Keto and OMAD,” one-meal-a-day question. Trina says, “I've been using OMAD for just under a week and have been doing okay. No weight loss yet, but I do have hunger pains periodically and some lasts for over an hour. I'm also doing keto while I'm having my one meal a day. Is this too much to do OMAD and keto at once and could this be causing me to feel hungry while I'm fasting? Or, should I stay the course or if I'm not going to lose weight, because I'm being too restrictive by using keto, should I add bread, pasta, etc., here and there? I do think I'd feel fuller at the moment, but I don't want the grains/carbs to spike my insulin. I've been keto since April 1st pretty strict and only up and down a few pounds weight loss, but overall, still the same weight. I did IF for 18:6 for a couple of weeks, no weight loss. Now, trying OMAD has been about a week. I maybe adrenal fatigued. Could this be my body healing instead of losing weight? If so, when oh when, can I hope to see any weight loss? I really do like the OMAD, but I'm getting frustrated. By the way, I eat in the middle of the day currently, but maybe shifting to an evening OMAD might help. I work full time, very busy, and was worried. I'd be dragging if I didn't eat in the middle of the day. But eating with my family would be more enjoyable for all of us.” And then she has a second question, but I thought we could answer this first.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack here. Unfortunately, the toxic diet culture has convinced women in particular that weight loss is the only metric to demonstrate if a new strategy is effective. If you look at the research typically, because women have different body fat to muscle mass composition, as well as hormonal fluctuations. I don't know how old Trina is. I don't know if she's insulin resistant. But depending on where you are life stage wise, it may take six to eight weeks to start seeing significant and when I mean significant, really one to two pounds a week over six, eight weeks, yes, I would expect to see some weight reduction. I think it's important to focus on non-scale victories. Meaning, are you getting changes in body composition, are your clothes fitting a little more loosely, are you having more energy, more mental clarity, etc.? I think there's a couple things to focus on. One meal a day for many people may not allow you to get enough macros in. I know this is something that Melanie and I have talked a lot about outside of the podcast. There's a lot of layers to this question. Obviously, the first one being be patient. I know it's easier said than done, of course. But I think that it's important to understand that you may not see a scale shift immediately and to just trust the course.

The other thing is, can you get enough protein in one meal a day? That's always my concern with women. If you really just have one meal, are you getting enough food in? You also mentioned being adrenal fatigued and so, there's a lot to look at. When women are fasting, I think it's really, critically important that you focus on what's your sleep quality like. That's foundational. If you can't sleep through the night, your sleep quality is eroded, you need to back off on fasting. Number two, what's your stress management like? That's not three minutes of meditation once a week. Anti-inflammatory nutrition, I think keto can be helpful. However, maybe you need to really be thinking thoughtfully about what's working for your body. Protein, non-starchy vegetables, right types of fats. Then the last thing that I think about is, I don't know if you're exercising. It sounds like you've got a very busy schedule. But we know that insulin resistance starts in our muscles as an example. Some type of physical activity is going to be very important to help with insulin sensitivity. But it's hard for me to completely provide some perspective about the adrenal fatigue. If you're in perimenopause or menopause, more than likely your adrenals need some love and support and that's why the stress management and sleep are so important and the right types of exercise and food. Melanie, what would you add to that?

Melanie Avalon: That was very comprehensive. That was wonderful. The only thing I would add would be, so going back to the keto, I think there's this binary dichotomy that people have viewing keto, where they're either keto or they're eating bread and pasta, where I think it's much more nuanced than that. Adding carbs to keto doesn't have to be bread and pasta. It doesn't have to be this huge whack of high GI, potentially inflammatory carb source. You can add in some carbs while still existing more within a “keto paradigm.” A lot of people on keto do include berries, for example like small amounts of berries. Even upping the vegetable intake could potentially up the carb count. I would not go to bread and pasta to make yourself less stressed or less restrictive. I don't think for most people that that would be the solution. Some other thoughts about existing within the keto paradigm and frame, Cynthia mentioned this, but the role of protein is so important. I don't know if you're doing a super high fat version of keto or not, but adding that more protein and maybe if you are doing super high fat, titrating down the fat, that might be a way to A, feel more full because the protein is going to do that. B, more nourished via the protein and potentially encourage weight loss by titrating down the fat.

Also, switching out the types of fats might be helpful. Depending on what type of fat you're having in your keto diet, MCT oil, for example, is a very thermogenic fat. If you are adding oils or butter, or things like that switching some of that out for MCT oil might have a beneficial effect on your weight loss. There is the option because you're worried about keto plus fasting being too stressful. There is the option of trying fasting with not keto. That is an option. Trying a higher carb, lower fat approach, for me personally that works really well. Again, we're all individual. When did she start this? Only a couple of weeks. Okay. I wouldn't jump to this right now, because like Cynthia said, it's only been a couple of weeks and I would stick it out a little bit longer. That said, if you make it months, and you're still not happy, and you're not seeing weight loss, some people do find that they do better on a higher carb, lower fat approach with the fasting. So, that is definitely something to try.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, It's interesting. When I talked to Sara Gottfried a few weeks ago, one of the things she was talking about is, women have to use keto differently than men. It's been my experience that men seem to be able to eat copious amounts of both plant-based and animal-based fats. We really have to reflect on the fact that carbs and protein are four calories per gram, even though I don't encourage people to count calories. Let me just put that in there. Whereas fats are nine calories per gram. You don't need as much fat as you think you do. As an example, if you're having a piece of salmon steak or a ribeye, guess what the fats are already in there. You don't need to add more fats. This is where I see a lot of women get into trouble, because dairy, cheese, cheese is delicious and nuts are delicious. And so, people are like, “Yay, I'm doing keto. This is awesome.” Before they know that they've eaten four portions of cheese, and three have nuts, and they've blown, any caloric deficit that might have even been created by intermittent fasting. So, just something to think about that plant-based fats for a lot of people including myself. I tend to do better with those, so less heavy fats, but really leaning into where you life stage wise, are you insulin resistant, and maybe being really mindful about your portion sizes of fats.

Melanie Avalon: Three thoughts to that. I'm glad you mentioned Sara Gottfried because I was going to bring her up in my answer because I was going to say that her, and you, and Dr. Anna Cabeca, all of you guys are really wonderful in talking about the nuances of keto for women specifically and how that might need to be adapted for women. I think that's really valuable. Cynthia's book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation, Dr. Gottfried’s-- What is Dr. Gottfried’s most recent book?

Cynthia Thurlow: Women, Food, and Hormones.

Melanie Avalon: Wait. Straight to the point.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, Women, Food, and Hormones.

Melanie Avalon: So, if that title doesn't just say it. Dr. Anna-- What's Dr. Anna Cabeca’s most recent book?

Cynthia Thurlow: MenuPause. So, it's like M-E-N-U-pause.

Melanie Avalon: I actually haven't read-- I think that's her only book I haven't read.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's beautiful. The photos, and the recipes, and she really did a nice very thoughtful, very, very thoughtful job. Yeah, it's a beautiful book. The photography is so pretty. We think about we eat with our eyes. And so, I told her, I was like, “Oh my gosh, the book is so beautiful.” If you do nothing else, it's artwork just to look at.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to have to check it out. That's amazing. Well, we'll put links to all of those books in the show notes. The other thought I had was, again, listening to Peter Attia last night, one of the episodes I was listening to was, he was talking about people not losing weight on keto. He said, the first thing, if that's the case is he suggests titrating down the fat, which is just to echo what we both just said, Oh, yeah. The third thing is, I'm so glad you brought this up, because I think about this a lot. I think because we do live in such-- especially with the keto movement and this idea that has to be super high fat, we just have this feeling that with all of our food, we need to cook it in fat, and add all these oils, and you don't have to. Especially, if you're talking about salmon, salmon has a lot of fat in it. A not lean chicken breast, chicken thighs or chicken breasts with skin, that has fat in it. Steak has fat in it. So, you don't necessarily have to add a ton of fat. I know there are people like, is it Dr. Gundry, who says he pours olive oil by [laughs] a liter?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think about it. He's a dude. I always say like, “That's the one thing we--" Bio-individuality rules, but I don't see a lot of women that can eat copious amounts of fat. The worst thing is when someone says, “Oh, my God, I did keto and it was great until I gained 10 pounds.” It's almost always because they didn't realize how calorically dense fats are. I always say like, “If a little bit is good, too much is not good.” I will fully disclose that my favorite healthy fat, I love macadamia nuts. I have to portion out a quarter cup because they're so easy to overeat. I literally take the bag out, take my measuring cup out-- I don't measure my food otherwise. Take my measuring cup out, put in a bowl, put the bag away, and I'm like, “I'm done.” Because it's like kryptonite, it’s very easy to overeat fats.

Melanie Avalon: Nuts are a gateway food for me. I've said this on the show a lot. I don't know if I've said this to you. But one of the biggest epiphanies I had with all of this was, people will say that on keto, for example, that you can have unlimited fats, because they don't raise insulin. But the reason they don't really raise insulin is because they don't really need insulin to get stored. The ironic thing is, the same concept of fats not releasing insulin and the conclusion you could draw could be one of two things that are complete opposites. The conclusion that most people draw is, “Well, no insulin. So, it's not going to get stored. I can have all the fat I want.” But really no insulin, because it's so easily stored. So, just something to ponder.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting. Ben Azadi always says, “You want to burn endogenous fat before you consume exogenous fat,” which means all of us have plenty of fat just to burn off. We want to burn the fat in our bodies as opposed to ingesting lots of fat. When we're thinking about evolved keto, meaning, as Melanie just said, people say, “Oh, I've no blood sugar spikes on my CGM.” It's understanding because you make it very easy for that extra energy just to get stored as fat. And so, we want to burn the fat inside before eating copious amounts of exogenous or external sources of fats as delicious as they are.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link in the show notes to that Peter Attia episode because it was his AMA #22.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love his AMAs.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. The title is Losing fat and gaining fat and it was all about the concept of fat flex, and how does fat actually go in and out of cells, and how does keto affect that. So, be very helpful for people. Trina had one last quick question. She said, “Also, do we count our fasting from beginning of eating window to the next beginning of the eating window or do we count it from where we end our eating? I'm getting confused on the whole 22:2 or 23:1, and where the hours are counted from. Thanks for all you do and I appreciate your time.”

Cynthia Thurlow: I always count it from when you stopped eating.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting because I'm running a fasting group right now and there were two or three women that were struggling because they were thinking about it too much. I just said, “Whenever you stop eating is when your fasting window starts and that's the easiest way to think about it. Don't overthink it.”

Melanie Avalon: People get really caught up because when you end your meal, you're fasting but you're not in the fasted state. It can be confusing. If Cynthia said, if you're overthinking it, but don't overthink it. You are fasting and that's what you're counting. So, fasting is when you're not eating.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I tell people it really takes about 12 hours for your body to get to a point where it's burned off or working through that last meal. It's important to not stress yourself out, because I tell everyone, I'm like, “We're so hard on ourselves, we endeavor to integrate these new strategies to make ourselves healthier.” Then next thing I know people are down a rabbit hole stressing and I'm like, “Listen, no stress. There's no stress.” When you stop eating is the beginning of your fasting window until you eat again.

Melanie Avalon: Here's a question for you that we've often discussed on this show and I'm always curious what people’s thoughts are. If you're doing a time approach where it's a 16:8 or something like that, would you rather count the fasting hours or the eating hours? I can clarify more if you need me to clarify. So, Gin, for example, likes to have a four- or five-hour eating window, whereas I like to have minimum fasting hours. I like to count the fasting hours.

Cynthia Thurlow: I count the fasting hours. I really lean into how I feel in terms of-- Because I have a wider eating window. That's one way I can get in the amount of protein that I need every day. For me, I really reflect on what my minimum fasting hours should be and that's usually what I work from.

Melanie Avalon: Same. It's exactly what I do.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm checking myself like, “When I stop eating last night?” Last night, I went out to dinner with my 16-year-old, so, I ate a little later than I normally do which is okay. Yeah, I usually focus on, “Okay, how do I need to adjust my fasting windows to make sure I'm at least hitting that minimum for me?”

Melanie Avalon: Same. What I don't like is, I don't like the thought of having to close my eating window at a certain time. Once I start eating now, I have this amount of time to eat that I find that very stressful.

Cynthia Thurlow: When do you open up your feeding window, because I know you stay up a little later than I do?

Melanie Avalon: Like nine.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's hilarious. For listeners, I know, you know that Melanie stays up a little later and I go to bed a whole lot earlier. But I was thinking one day, I was like, “I wonder what time she starts eating,” because I know what time I start eating and they might be like 12 hours apart. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's very possible. The only time I eat earlier is if I'm getting dinner out. I've been doing it for so long, too.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's what we're-- This is really leaning into what works for you and your body. If I eat at 9 o'clock at night, my sleep would be a disaster. [laughs] But I also go to bed a lot earlier. So, I think last night I was up late. My Oura was like, “You stayed up till 10:15.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I would be so proud of myself if I went to bed at 10:15. I would be so proud of myself if I got up when you get up, too.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, well, it's funny. My Oura was squawking at me last night that it wants me in bed between 8:30 and 9:30 and I'm like, “Oh.” Sometimes, I just don't want to go to bed that early. And then it squawks at me, because my sleep latency is two to three minutes because I take progesterone which is sedating and helps me fall asleep. So, I just say I'm not going to worry about the sleep latency. I know why I fall asleep quickly.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I've said this before, but I I've hit up ceiling on my Oura Ring. I don't think I can get better than a certain score that I received. I don't think I can get higher than 90, because of how late I go to bed. Even if everything else is great, it considers that a problem, even though it tells me to go to bed late. It's ironic. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. I want to just keep answering questions, but I guess, we'll have to wait till next week. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly emailquestions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. I will say, Cynthia, we've been getting because you weren't here before you were here. There's definitely been an influx in questions and Cynthia has come onboard and it's really exciting. I think people are really excited to get your perspective on things. So, keep the questions coming. The show notes again will be at ifpodcast.com/episode269 and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon. Okay, wait. Let me try. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Just to make it complicated.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm loving all the questions. In fact, as Melanie stated, we have an influx of questions and we're just trying to diligently hit a couple every episode. So, keep them coming and I've been encouraging people that have been asking questions in my DMs across social media to email them to us, so we can answer them on air.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Because people will DM me as well. But if you want it on the show, the email is where it needs to be. That's how it goes through the system to potentially get into the lineup. So, all right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Happy Memorial Day weekend.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks. To you, as well.

Melanie Avalon: I will see you next week.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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LINKS

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Jun 05

Episode 268: Episode Giveaway!, Dry Mouth, Oil Pulling, Sleep Apnea, Adaptogens, Autoimmunity, Botox, Urine pH, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Episode 159: Anna Cabeca, Keto Green, Hormonal Changes, Menopause, Alkalinity, IF for Women, Reversing Infertility, Sexual Health And More!

Welcome to Episode 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener feedback: Scott - Dry mouth

Glucose Revolution: The Life-Changing Power of Balancing Your Blood Sugar (Jessie Inchauspe)

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Maria - Struggling With IF

Listener Q&A: Jessica - Botox

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Free LMNT Sample Pack With Any Order! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

Listener Q&A: Leah - Urine pH

Acid Alkaline Food Chart

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check on my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products. Deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. And you can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 268 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. How are you today, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well, my friend. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm very good. I'm excited to hear we were just talking before recording about how you're going to be speaking at KetoCon. Would you like to tell listeners a little bit about that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's exciting. They haven't had KetoCon in two years because of the pandemic and so some of my absolute, favorite humans in the health and wellness space are going to be there. People like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, and Chris Irwin, and Ben Azadi, and Anna Cabeca, and Mindy Pelz, and all sorts of humans. I am going to be the first speaker on the first day, and I'm doing a book signing, and I'm doing a couple other things, a little Q&A. And so, I'll have an opportunity to actually see people up close and personal as opposed to its smaller events that I've been doing over the last year and a half. And Austin, such a great foodie city. For anyone who's been there, they have great restaurants and they generally tend to avoid inferior seed oils that you and I are both not fans of. It's always a location that I enjoy visiting. We actually have family there as well. But it'll be hotter than Hades, because it's Texas in the summer, but we will navigate lots of air conditioning, and I'm really excited to be going, and so, we'll make sure that we include-- I have a discount code if people would like to go to the three-day event, we'll include that in the show notes for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: What is the discount code?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's EWP, but I'll double check.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, awesome. We've had Anna Cabeca on the show twice, I think, on this show. So, listeners loved those interviews.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Anna's amazing. She is amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Out of our whole audience, I'm sure some people are going. Hopefully, they can see you. That'd be really, really exciting. I'm actually interviewing, well, hopefully, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Monday. This Monday, tomorrow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think your listeners are going to love her. She's so smart, she's coming out with a book next year, and she has such a fresh perspective on muscle protein synthesis and the value of muscle as an organ of longevity. I've just learned so much from her. In fact, I jokingly tell her, I quote her almost on the Daily, because she's made such a large impact on my own, not only on my own personal health journey, but also the information I share with women. I think your listeners will get a lot out of it. It'll really keep people thinking about how to be ensuring they're getting enough protein into their diets, because she did her residency and her training, working with gerontologic population. Older patients and so sarcopenia, which is this muscle loss with aging is a huge issue.

And ladies, it's not a question of if but when. It will happen if you don't do everything you can to work against it. The one thing that I think is really important to dovetail into this conversation is that insulin resistance starts in our muscles. It really reaffirms the need to consume enough protein, and make sure that you are getting enough rest, and your strength training. It's really, really important. It's not just for aesthetics. I think a lot of people assume that those of us that talk about this that we're just concerned about aesthetics. I'm like, "No, no, no. This is really about your health and understanding that metabolic flexibility really starts with your muscle physiology."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it is just so important. I think that insulin resistance starts at the muscle. It's such a paradigm shift because I think most people think it would be in the fat cells that we first become insulin resistant, but yeah, the role of muscle is just so, so huge. I think there could be a lot of benefit of people, because we're so fat focused, but there could be so much benefit if we shifted our focus more to supporting muscle. Even when it comes to diet, eating more protein and rather than cutting calories, or cutting fat, or cutting carbs, just focusing on the protein is huge.

Cynthia Thurlow: Because I know even in the work I do with women, we've been conditioned that we want to count calories, we want to count macros constantly, and I just say, "Listen, if you can aim for 100 grams of protein a day, everything else will fall into place" and that blows people's minds. Even, I'll use a good example. I don't know if I've told you this. My husband is the meal prep guy in our house, because he's an engineer. He doesn't mind spending two or three hours prepping protein. That's really the most important thing because we have teen boys. This morning, all of the normal things we would have in the house weren't here and so, I had leftover shrimp, I had leftover mahi mahi. I calculated how much protein was in this meal. I'm always trying at a minimum 40 to 50 grams in a meal because it's so important to me make sure in my two meals. I'm really pushing the envelope with protein a little lower than what I would normally eat, and my husband was laughing at me, and he was saying, "Yeah, I know. I completely flummoxed your meal prep today, because we had to go to the grocery store." Sometimes, I think you just have to make do with what you have. But for me, if I hit a certain threshold of protein intake, I'm very full and then I'm ready to eat four or five hours later.

Melanie Avalon: I think that is so important, especially, because we get a lot of questions from people who struggle with feeling full or just reaching satiety. It's really incredible if you just focus on the protein aspect. That's what I do. As I eat exuberant amounts of protein. I probably eat too much protein. I don't know. I'm going to ask Gabrielle that tomorrow.

Cynthia Thurlow: That'd be a great question for her.

Melanie Avalon: I do. I don't know. I think I texted you at the other day. It's over 200 grams definitely each night.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's amazing. And for ladies that are listening, this is because Melanie is at different life stage, like, if I ate 200 grams of protein, I probably would fall over and my stomach would explode. That's why I do a bolus in two meals and I generally can hit it. I met Gabrielle in 2020, sorry. The first thing she said to me is, "You probably don't eat enough protein." I looked her like she was crazy. Of course, she was right. Since then, I was like, "You made such an impression." I went home and started measuring how much protein I was eating and I was like, "She's right." Pushing those protein values like Melanie is a unicorn. Don't listen to what Melanie is saying and feel somehow, you're inferior. It's just she is it a different life stage. She can probably bolus her protein that way. I have to divide it between two meals, but always aiming for 100 grams a day. Somedays I hit 110, somedays, if I'm really good, I can hit on her 120, but that's always the goal, two big meals.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to her about this and this is actually really helpful for me prepping for tomorrow because I'm thinking about what I'm going to ask her. Because I actually wonder about myself. I've been eating this way for so long. The reason I'm eating this way is because I had an epiphany like a decade ago. I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this, but the reason I did this was I realized, protein is the one macronutrient that is most likely to become muscle and least likely to become fat. I realized, "Oh, if I just eat protein, I can literally eat as much as I want, and probably lose weight," and that's what happened. But then I just started loving protein so much. I'm wondering if my body preferentially uses protein as its fuel source, which I don't think is, I don't know necessarily that's healthy. So, I need to talk to her about that aspect.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I can't wait to hear your conversation. She's just such a firmly science-based clinician and so smart. I was teasing her the other day because she's on all podcasts. She was just on Lewis Howes, and Drew Pruitt. Gosh, every day I turn around, there you are. [laughs] I love that she's getting information out there that all of us need. It's so, so important.

Melanie Avalon: How did you meet her?

Cynthia Thurlow: I met her at a conference. I was actually out in Portland, and we were on a panel together, and it was instantly, she was just one of these people I wanted to get to know and be friends with. I met her husband and her daughter. She now has another child, but just an instant connection. As I still do one of the first things she said to me, "You're probably not eating enough protein" and I was like, "What?" [laughs] After hearing her speak, I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm totally not eating enough protein."

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm excited. And then one other little thing for listeners yesterday-- Was it yesterday? No, no, a few days ago, I interviewed Rick Johnson for this show. I can't wait. I'm not sure when we're going to release that episode, but that'll be very exciting for listeners to hear, because he just dived so deep into metabolic health, and insulin resistance, and fructose, and all these really cool things, and why our bodies naturally want to store fat based on our diet and lifestyle.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, he's probably, I would say, I was just looking at my metrics on my podcast today and he is a top three downloaded podcast for the whole year, which is just incredible. I think it's because he makes the information accessible. You and I both know, there are a lot of researchers that are just brilliant, but they don't bring it down to a level where the average person has something, they can take away. They just go, I don't know what that person just said, [laughs] "I have to have-- Melanie needs to translate it or Cynthia needs to translate it." But his enthusiasm is infectious, and his book is wonderful, and I just-- For anyone that's listening, before we even recorded together, he read my book. I was so touched because I thought to myself, "Here is this very respected researcher, who's reading a book about fasting and women" and he had so many nice things to say. He's just a really nice human, who just happens to be kind, compassionate, smart, and as far as I'm concerned, utterly brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: I sent him my book, I think after I interviewed him, maybe. He sent me a picture and he was like, "Here it is on my shelf. I'm reading it." I was like, "Oh, my goodness, [laughs] I'm so honored." Yes. So, I think listeners will really, really enjoy that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Exciting announcement for listeners. We are actually going to do a giveaway for this episode. So, what all is included in the giveaway?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's products from one of my favorite pharmaceutical grade companies, Designs for Health and it's some of their special chocolates, and also some of my favorite products that they utilize. We thought it would be fun for people to participate in the giveaway. I think what we had talked about was, if you have purchased my book, we'd like you to leave a review, and screenshot, and share that with us, and we will enter you into the giveaway that will be sent to you, whoever is the lucky participant. But it's some of my favorite designs for health products, including things like inositol, which can be helpful for blood sugar regulation, as well as sleep support. And those chocolates, which are really interesting. Some of them have reishi in them, so medicinal mushrooms, not wacky mushrooms, medicinal mushrooms and some other things. So, really, it's a fun, a fun grouping of products.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We're going to put that picture for the giveaway on our Instagram today, the day that this episode airs. So, again, to enter to win that, go to Amazon. Amazon, or any other review, or what are the platforms?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so, Target, Barnes & Noble, your local bookstore, wherever you purchased it from, you just need to screenshot the review, and share that with us, and we will enter you into the giveaway.

Melanie Avalon: So, to recap, friends, listeners, go to Amazon or wherever you review your books, write a review of Cynthia's incredible book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation, send a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com, and we will enter you into that giveaway, and instructions, and pictures of the giveaway, and such will also be on our Instagram. So, check that out. Our Instagram is @ifpodcast. And important note for that giveaway. It is open only to listeners in the continental United States. Okay, shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have some listener feedback and this actually comes from Scott. It is feedback from a question which was pre-Cynthia. So, Cynthia, we got a question from a listener who really struggled with dry mouth and was looking for suggestions on how to deal with that, especially with fasting and things like that. Scott wrote in and he said, "Hello, ladies, on the April 11th episode, a question on dry mouth was asked. Here are two tips that helped me significantly. After coffee in the morning, coconut oil for 10 to 15 minutes." So, he's referring to oil pulling, not eating coconut oil.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's an important distinction.

Melanie Avalon: Do you do oil pulling, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: I do.

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't. I scrape my tongue. I use Primal Life Organics and I love their products. I don't, I don't I think for me, it's one extra step I just don't want to do.

Melanie Avalon: I do it. I remember when I started doing it, I was on-off, on-off because, I saw it as something like you just said, where something extra to do. But now, it's just so integrated in my routine that I do it while I'm-- because I eat really late, as listeners know. Every morning, I'm cleaning up the kitchen from the night before, unloading the dishwasher, and such. So, I oil pull while doing that. [chuckles] It's basically where you take coconut oil, or I use MCT oil, and you swish it around in your mouth, like Scott said, for 10 to 15 minutes. I think it's an Ayurvedic tradition. I know it's debated, but the thoughts are that it pulls toxins out of your mouth and potentially even bloodstream. Again, it's debated. I really enjoy it. He's saying that it might help dry mouth. Then he says, "He also oil pulls after each meal." I do not do that. Oh, and "he does one last oil pull right before bed." And then he says, "Lastly, if you have no breathing obstructions such as apnea, try mouth taping before sleep." Have you done in mouth taping?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have, but I'm not an obligate mouth breather, and I've actually had a sleep study, and I do not have sleep apnea. So, I've done it, but I didn't see an improvement. For me, I track my sleep on my Oura anyway. It gives me some degree of objectivity. But when I think about dry mouth, I start thinking about, "Are you taking a medication that's drawing your mouth out, like antihistamines?" I then think there are certain autoimmune issues that people can develop where they will get a dry mouth. And so, that's the direction my brain goes in. I think Scott's suggestions are really easy things to do upfront, while you're considering that maybe it's related as a side effect to a medication, maybe you're not drinking enough water, especially with electrolytes. I know we were just talking about Robb Wolf and I'm a huge fan of electrolytes. In fact, I would say that my HRV stuff has been off since I had surgery, which is not surprising and it was like, after two weeks, I was frustrated. I was like, "Okay, I'm doing all the things. Now, what do I need to--?" For the last three days, I've been really dedicated about electrolyte repletion, and my HRV numbers, and my sleep scores are improving. I have to believe that that's part of it. When I'm thinking about how this could pertain to Scott, I'm thinking about definitely thinking outside the box. But I love that he brought up oil pulling because that certainly doesn't hurt.

Melanie Avalon: Two thoughts to that. I'm glad you said that, because that jogged my memory about the original question. The woman who wrote in, she was on medications, which were non-negotiables for her at that moment and they were causing dry mouth. She was looking for ways to mitigate it while still being on the medication. And then the LMNT. I'm glad you brought that up. Did not play in this. They're actually a sponsor on today's show. So, listeners, listen for the ad in today's show, because our offer actually will give you a free sample pack. You can get some of those for free. I think our link is drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. Oh, and then the mouth taping, just really quickly, I know you and I both interviewed James Nestor. After I interviewed him, I tried mouth taping, but I didn't continue. I'm not a mouth breather as well. So, yeah, I've never done a sleep study though. Is it outpatient or inpatient?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it was a little device shows up at your house, and you do it, and then it uploads all the data, and then someone meets with you and evaluates. Mine was fine. It didn't suspect that I had sleep apnea, but my integrative medicine doc insisted I do it. Probably, based on my age, this is one of those things I'm like, "Based on your age, we should probably do those" and I'm like, "Okay." [laughs] So, I'm happy to report that I'm middle aged without sleep apnea.

Melanie Avalon: I have three questions for you about that. One, is the device uncomfortable in any way? Would it interfere with your normal sleep wearing it?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. It was a little electrode and then I had a little pulse oximeter. If anyone's familiar, it almost looks like a little clip you put on your finger. It's monitoring your heart rate, and your pulse rate, your oxygenation. No, it wasn't. Although, the instructions identify, if you toss and turn, you might impact the validity of the test, so I made sure, I'm a corpse sleeper, meaning, if you were to ask my husband, I don't really move around a lot at night. By the time I fall asleep, I either lie flat on my back or on my side. I don't really toss and turn much. But I would imagine if someone's a disruptive sleeper who's back and forth that they could potentially knock the apparatus off. But it was pretty benign. It wasn't as cumbersome as a traditional polysomnography test, where you're in an environment where you've got electrodes all over your body, and you're in a lab sleeping in a hospital bed, which of course is not at all akin to the average person really having a restful night's sleep under those circumstances.

This is probably a screening tool. If they're concerned about it, this might be a good screening tool, but it certainly is sensitive enough that if there isn't an indication that you're having periods of apnea, or hypopnea, or anything like that, that they can successfully rule out that you've got something significant. Plus, the other thing is, your listeners may or may not know this, but when I worked in cardiology as an NP, especially with men, if someone had a really big neck size, let's say, a size 17 shirt or greater, you assume they have sleep apnea until proven otherwise. Yeah, so, if someone has-- Even if it's a woman and they have a big neck, I'm going to be thinking about sleep apnea. Just one of those clinical pearls over the years that I learned. I used to, sometimes, I was like, "Do you snore when you sleep?" And people were like, "What?" I'm like, "Well, you have a big neck." And then as we get older, collagen and elastin don't work quite as well. And so, it's more common for people to get floppy in the back of their posterior pharynx, which can obstruct things or if they've got a deviated septum. I mean, there's a whole slew of things that can make you more prone to developing sleep apnea beyond just being overweight.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that was the reason I asked was because I've always been suspicious of the inpatient studies, because that just seems-- especially, if it's somebody who is already struggling with insomnia, it seems being in a foreign environment like that. It wouldn't naturally capture your normal sleep state. Being able to do it at home in a noninvasive manner, sounds pretty cool. I didn't even know that was an option.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I'm presuming they leave it for people that they think there's a low threshold for them actually having a positive test. I know in order for insurance to cover CPAP or BiPAP, which is the traditional technologies to address sleep apnea. Beyond the lifestyle stuff, you have to have a formal test. We actually had a sleep specialist in our practice that just that's all they did. [laughs] All day long was sleep studies and so, I would sometimes circulate to that part of the practice and would marvel at all the technology that goes on with it.

Melanie Avalon: So, is it measuring things beyond something that an Oura Ring would capture?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. You have electrodes everywhere. They've got a 12-lead EKG that's going on, they're looking at brainwaves. It depends on how sophisticated the environment is, but more often than not untreated obstructive sleep apnea puts you at risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. We know that if you're not properly oxygenating your body, it's a stressor and not in a good way. We used to always say like, "How many of these patients--?" Once we started treating their sleep apnea, their blood sugar got better, their blood pressure got better, they lost weight. And so, much to what I tell my female patients and clients is, "If I can't get you to sleep through the night, I can't get you to lose weight." And for a lot of people, it's oftentimes that missing link. If anyone's listening to this and they know they snore or they have periods of apnea, where they stopped breathing, you definitely want to connect with your internist and ask them to consider evaluation. Now, some internists will actually just order the test. Others want to refer you to a pulmonologist or a lung doctor, so that they can follow you.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that is insanely helpful and it also reminded me of one super random, very quick tangent, I promise. But the jostling of the device, I was listening again to another Peter Attia episode, and he mentioned something that I have always wondered and didn't understand until now. This is his theory. I don't know if this is true, because he said, it was his theory. I'm not sure if this is actually what's happening. But why do you think when people put in a CGM that it takes a few days to be correct? how the first few days that they say it can be off?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, they tell you to throw the data away. I thought it had more to do with the device itself and trying to get acclimated, but is that due to people that are making changes because they then have the CGM.

Melanie Avalon: He said he thinks-- I thought it was as well what you said. He said he thinks it's because putting it in creates an injury to trauma in that area and that affects the use of glucose in that area. And so, it has to regulate. I was like, "Oh."

Cynthia Thurlow: When I think injury, I think-- [crosstalk]

Melanie Avalon: He said trauma.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's like a micro trauma? Yeah. I have to tell you, I generally think Peter's pretty brilliant. I'll have to think about that.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't googled it or researched it, but I was like, "That's interesting."

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I call it the Peter Attia rabbit hole, because sometimes he makes me think about something and I'm like, "All right, I need to process." And then after I process, I need to go down a couple rabbit holes and then I have to think more about it. But I think what's important is that we understand and consider that there might be different variables that impact how well a glucometer is reading things. Sometimes, I put on my CGM and I have to calibrate it. within 24 hours. My glucometer says one thing, and my CGM says another, and there's such a disparity. This one I have on beautiful, because I waited two and a half weeks after my surgery to even put it back on, because I just didn't want to know [laughs] what my body was doing. But I'm happy to report my blood sugar is looking pretty darn good.

Melanie Avalon: How often do you wear one?

Cynthia Thurlow: I wore it for about 18 months and then I needed a break.

Melanie Avalon: Who, whoa, whoa. I thought I was doing a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, because I was fascinated with it. And then in March, I decided because of the book launch, I didn't want to know, because I'm the type of person I get excited when I do a podcast. I get excited when I do something when I connect with other people. Every time I would do an interview, my cortisol would go up, and my blood sugar would go up, and I could literally just watch these little micro spikes all day long, and I was like, "This is going to make me crazy." I took a two-month break and it was good. Now, I'm putting it back on and I'm like, "Okay, now, I'm ready to--" I've got two more upstairs. I'll do it for a little while and then I'll reassess. But I think it's helpful. I don't think you have to do it for 18 months, but I tend to be a data geek and I tend to really enjoy tracking information. But I acknowledge I don't stress about it. I just go, "Hmm, okay, what do I need to do differently today?"

Melanie Avalon: I probably wore one for maybe four or five months and then I haven't recently. I actually just reached out to NutriSense and asked them to send me some more, because I want to jump back on. But that was something else-- Because the episode I was listening to was, it was either the CGM episode or just a blood sugar episode. But he was talking about HbA1c, and blood sugar regulation, and he did mention similar to what you just said, and I think this is important for listeners to know. He said, the highest spikes he sees and he thinks are often possible for people actually aren't from eating. They're from things like exercise, from the liver shunting out glucose. High stress events can definitely cause things like that. He was actually suggesting, if it makes people uneasy or stressed about it like you were talking about with the launch, just not looking at that data during-- because you know why it's happening. So, you have to know yourself, and know your relationship with the data, and how it makes you feel, and what's the most healthy way to engage with it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's important. It's interesting. So, listeners may or may not know this. I carb cycle. On Friday. I decided Friday was going to be my higher carb day of the week. I had some sweet potato. I was happy to see that I didn't get much of a glucose or blood sugar spike. It was a difference of I think it went up 25 points, but it came down almost immediately and that's really what you want to see. Not this prolonged elevation in blood sugar. For me, on higher carb days, I'm really mindful of what mitigates my blood sugar response, and I almost always start with protein, and then add in the carb, and it's interesting. Have you read Glucose Goddess yet, her new book?

Melanie Avalon: She's an author.

Cynthia Thurlow: She, I believe is a biochemist and her book is do doing really, really well. But she's a proponent of starting with vegetables first and then protein. I haven't gotten the book. I haven't ordered. It should arrive this week.

Melanie Avalon: It's a new book?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. It's a new book and there a lot of people in the metabolic health space that are talking about it. I actually reached out to her, because I was like, "I'd love to interview you, I'd love to understand more about your book and your work, etc." But I think she's a biochemist. I think she's got a refreshing take and she's in Europe, I believe.

Melanie Avalon: Does she have a book before this or is this her first book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I thought this was her first, but it could be mistaken.

Melanie Avalon: I'm looking on Amazon right now. Is it how to be a Glucose Goddess?

Cynthia Thurlow: She's called Glucose Goddess, but I think-- What's the name of the book?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yes. I just found it. So, it's--

Cynthia Thurlow: Glucose Revolution.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Glucose Revolution: The Life-changing Power of Balancing Your Blood Sugar by Jessie. I've no idea how you say your last name. Do you know how you say her last name?

Cynthia Thurlow: In-cha-chauspe. I don't know if she's French, but she speaks English really clearly. But I think she's French.

Melanie Avalon: It came out March 31st of this year and it already has 732 ratings five stars. Her endorsement is by Tim Spector. Have you heard back from her?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. She said yes and I'd be supposed to reach out to her. I was like, one of those things I wanted to make sure I mentioned it to you, because I know you would want to have her on your radar, too.

Melanie Avalon: Her other endorsement is from David Sinclair. Very cool. One of my favorites. I've to check it out and listen to your interview with her.

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Melanie Avalon: Going back to Scott, he had a quick PS. He said, "Also that ashwagandha and kefir have both been shown to help with dry mouth." Are you a fan of adaptogens, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, gosh, I use tons of them. I'm a huge fan. In fact, when my HRV was off and my readiness score was in the toilet, [laughs] I've been that way since I had surgery. I started tweaking with some adaptogenic herbs. And so, I'm a big proponent. I don't use them all the time, but clearly my body was still perceiving a significant stress response. I've been, again with the electrolytes last couple days, and then adding in. There's an herbal blend that I will sometimes use by Designs for Health that has got a little bit of licorice root, so it can be a little bit stimulative, it's got ashwagandha, it's holy basil. It's designed to be nourishing to the adrenal glands. To me, it's not at all stimulating. I don't take that if I feel I need an adrenal glandular, but I do love adaptogens. They're plant-based compounds, if people are unfamiliar with them. But to me, it's a really nourishing way to help balance cortisol.

The really cool thing is that a lot of these adaptogenic herbs can help buffer cortisol if it's high and they can-- If your cortisol is low for some people, ashwagandha is a good example of this. It can do both. It can also be a little bit stimulating. That's the amazing thing with these plant-based compounds and that's why it's also important to work with someone that understands how a lot of these plant-based compounds worked. But to me, it's one of the easiest ways to provide adrenal support and stress support in the body, and it could be as simple as drinking holy basil tea. You don't even have to make it complicated, it doesn't have to be in a capsule form. There's a lot of different ways, a lot of different ways. I love teas in particular. There's a friend of mine, who's a master herbalist and an acupuncturist, and she has a company called Striving for Health. She makes the most amazing tea blends. I used to be able to see her in person, but I order her teas as gifts all the time, because people really enjoy them.

Melanie Avalon: I know. People are going to ask, "Are these teas okay for the clean fast?"

Cynthia Thurlow: It depends on which tea you're looking at. A lot of them have got different components, because she's a master herbalist, she pulls different things together. There are a couple, but I always say, when in doubt, just have it when you break your fast or have it before bedtime. Most of her herbal teas are not caffeinated. If they are, she is very clear about identifying which ones are. She's got some for immune support, she has some for stress, she has some that she calls them like love. It's not meant they don't boost your libido, but they're very calming and so, you can definitely check out her products on her website. It's really high-quality teas, and she sources very carefully, and she's a bit OCD. She used to have CBD products that were phenomenal. I think with the pandemic, it really changed her business model a bit. I think those are now on hold, but she really has some beautiful, beautiful tea as if people are tea drinkers or just want to try different things. One thing about tea, people may or may not know, a lot of it's contaminated. So, you always want to make sure you're getting from a good source, whether it's organic or working with a master herbalist, who knows a lot about where they're sourcing their products from.

Melanie Avalon: The adaptogen, I've had the most success with personally, at least, because I think something to understand is that we're all unique. And so, different adaptions might work for different people. The one that always works for me really well was rhodiola. I just respond well to that one.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting. I've only had one patient who didn't do well with rhodiola. Generally, it's very nourishing. You take it before bed, it's very calming, it helps buffer cortisol. There was some genetic SNP. I forget what it was. But she took it in and she was like wide awake all night long?" I was like, "Oh, my God, I've never seen this happen." But yeah, we'll have to do a podcast and we'll dig into the adaptogens, because they're really fascinating. And how some are better before bed, some are better if you need things to be stimulating. There's really good research on ashwagandha and maca. Those are two that I generally say are-- there's enough research on both of them to feel comfortable saying. You can go, pull research, and look at the effects in women, and it's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have thoughts on--? I remember when I was in my adaptogen research crazy phase people will say that ashwagandha is a nightshade. Have you heard that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And so, if you're sensitive to tomatoes, and potatoes, and peppers, you want to be careful with ashwagandha. To be fair, it's in that family. If you don't tolerate eggplant, and white potatoes, and peppers, you might want to be careful with ashwagandha.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. Shall we go on to our next question. Thank you for the feedback, Scott. That was really helpful and inspired a lot of tangents. Shall we go on to our first question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Maria. Subject is: "Struggling with intermittent fasting." "I have been fasting for approximately five months, but I am struggling. I started with 16:8 and I've worked my way to fasting 20 to 22 hours a day. I have done two 24-hour fasts. I have Raynaud's, which makes fasting difficult on some days because I get so cold and it is hard to get the blood flowing in my hands. On a recent visit to my doctor for my annual exam, my blood work showed a positive result for inflammation specifically RA and ANA. I have an appointment with a specialist soon. I feel better than I did when I was eating all the time and I've lost a few pounds, but I'm not really seeing any changes in my body. Although, I'm not going to give up on fasting, I'm feeling discouraged. I know the process is different for everyone because everyone's body is different, and has different needs, and I keep reminding myself to let the process work. But I'm wondering if I need to tweak what I'm doing and what that should look like. I'm basically eating whatever I want during my window including sweets. I used to work out all the time, but I have not since school started in August. I hope to get back to it this spring. I am not sleeping well and I definitely do not feel energetic. Could I be one of those that will need to modify my diet, looking for some guidance on what to do? I don't want to give up on fasting."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Maria. Well, thank you so much for your question. I've always said Raynaud's. Is it Raynaud's, or Raynaud's, or--?

Cynthia Thurlow: We used to call it Raynaud's. And so, it's a vasospasm in the fingers.

Melanie Avalon: I used to struggle with that pretty badly. I think a lot of people don't realize that it's considered to be an autoimmune condition as well, which makes sense. It might tie in to your blood work that you got back about autoimmune indicators. I think this question is really important because they think there's a-- When she says at the end, "Could I be one of the few that will need to modify my diet? I think there's this big misconception in the fasting world that fasting is the be all end all. It will magically solve everything and that your diet choices don't matter. I just feel so strongly that your diet choices do matter and especially, if you're struggling with autoimmune conditions. With autoimmune conditions, your immune system is reacting to things and it has misidentified certain proteins in your body as being problematic, and having an immune attack on those, and that can very intensely be linked to dietary choices, and what you're eating, encouraging that, or sparking that, or keeping that going. Because I've had a lot of episodes on autoimmune issues, and elimination diets, and stuff.

I would check out my interview with Dr. Will Cole for his book, The Inflammation Spectrum, because we really dived deep into autoimmune conditions and how they start-- By the time you see antibodies on your results, that was a long time coming. They don't just pop up overnight. That episode, the show notes are at melanieavalon.com/inflammation. 0

You don't need to give up on the fasting, because the fasting is not working. It is that's probably something else you're doing is not working. [chuckles] I don't think you are one of the few that needs to modify your diet. It's just my personal opinion. I think a lot of people will thrive when they find the diet that best suits them. This can be very empowering Maria, because there's so much potential here for change, especially since you haven't made any changes in what you're eating. There is so much potential here. I think you can make radical shifts, if you find the diet that works for you and figure out what's exacerbating these conditions. Oh, and I want to bring up to the Raynaud's. My Raynaud's went away when I adopted-- I was low carb, but I wasn't "paleo." I was still eating a lot of processed foods, a lot of gluten, even additives, and a high-fat, low-carb diet, and I had Raynaud's. When I switched to paleo, and cut out the additives, and just ate a diet of Whole Foods, fruit, vegetables, meat, my Raynaud's went away. So, there's a lot of potential. Do you have thoughts, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. The first thought is, once you have one autoimmune issue, you're more prone to them again. Autoimmune issues almost always speak to hyperpermeability of the small intestine aka leaky gut. So when I think about, we already know she's got some type of inflammation. She's not sleeping well, she's eating a lot of sweets. She mentioned that she's eating sweets. This is not a judgment. I'm just pointing out what she shared with us. I think this really speaks to we need more information. When she sees that specialist, who I'm assuming is going to be a rheumatologist very likely. They may or may not talk to her about nutrition, but the lifestyle piece is critically important. You got to dial in on the sleep. And in fact, in my book, I talk a lot about the fact that if you can't sleep through the night, your body's not in the position to be able to add the hormesis or the hormetic stressor of fasting. This isn't to suggest 12 hours a day isn't great. That's a great starting point. But this is absolutely, positively. I don't know how old Maria is. She's perimenopausal, menopausal. We don't respond to stress the same way.

My first recommendation would be, obviously, you're going to see that specialist which I think is great. You're already prone to developing another autoimmune issue. That's number two. Number three, you got to dial in on the sleep and the nutrition. I love Melanie's suggestion about looking into Dr. Will Cole's book, The autoimmune-- When we look at autoimmunity and we're looking at diets that re going to reduce inflammation in the body. It's pulling out the most inflammatory foods. Gluten, and grains, and dairy, and sugar, and alcohol, and really looking at your relationship with each one of those, if that's triggering, if that is bothersome to hear, really looking at like, "Well, maybe I'm eating the sweets, because I'm so tired, because my body's not getting the degree of nourishing sleep that it really needs." And so, that's really a great starting point. Start with the lifestyle piece, but the sleep, if you are not sleeping through the night and that's the way it is consistently, you have to address that first. Because we know based on research what is happening in your body when you're not getting restorative sleep, we know that it leads to blood sugar dysregulation, it leads to issues of leptin and ghrelin, which are these hunger and satiety hormones. You don't make good choices when you're sleep deprived. You're not going to crave broccoli, you're going to crave sweets because your body's looking for a quick fuel source. So, definitely keep us posted. But when I read that, those are the things that stood out to me.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought up the sleep aspect. It's interesting. I was recording my intro, because the episode is releasing, I think in two weeks on my other show is with Dr. Michael Breus. I released one episode with him about sleep, but this is a Part 2. When I was recording the intro, I made the statement that I think sleep is, out of all the health things, the thing that I think about the most or most prioritize. I said it and then I was like, "Is that a true statement?" Because I think a lot about fasting, I think a lot about diet, but it is. I think sleep is so, so important. So, I'm really glad you brought that up.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I love Dr. Breus. He's another person that I think of like Rick Johnson, whose enthusiasm for what he does is infectious.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, he's so enthusiastic. All right. We have a question from Jessica. I'm really excited about this question. This came in and I was like, "Cynthia, would you be able to speak to this?" She said, "Yes, so." I was excited. The subject is: "Botox." And Jessica says, "Hi, Melanie. Welcome, Cynthia. I believe I've listened to all of the IF podcasts and I don't think I've heard any Botox discussion. Could IF I make my body metabolize Botox quicker? It usually lasts about three months. I have some non-IF friends, who have Botox that lasts longer, closer to four to five months. We go to the same plastic surgeon. So, same Botox supply, same Botox areas and injection procedure. I'm 40 years old, very healthy overall. I've done IF for two years and now I'm in maintenance mode. I'm 5'6" and I weigh 135 pounds. I've only been doing Botox for the last year. I don't know how my body would have reacted to Botox with no IF. I'm also curious on your thoughts on Botox in general. Do the two of you do Botox? I know it's a personal question, but I trust the two of you so much and would love any insight on the risk versus reward. I will say it makes me feel good when I look in the mirror, which is just one piece of the puzzle for my overall wellbeing. Thank you."

Cynthia Thurlow: This is a great question. I will be happy and transparent with everyone, and say that I have used Botox for about 12 years. I initially started using it because I have a very hypermobile forehead and it just bothered me. I also have one eyebrow that sits a little lower than the other. I think that Botox is fine for people to utilize. I think it really requires a very precise application, because no one wants to look like the real housewives who are over Botoxed, and overfilled, and over plumped. I think on a lot of levels-- I'm very transparent about this on social media because people are shocked when they hear me talk about. I said, "There's no shame, if you decide to use Botox." I've never had a bad situation with Botox. I've always gone to the same provider, who's in Northern Virginia and is arguably one of the most talented providers I've ever met in my entire life. I think there's nothing wrong with doing Botox.

Obviously, I was middle aged when I started using it. The irony is that my Botox doesn't last as long as my friends does. The general school of thought because I've talked to plastic surgery friends of mine, I've talked about this with my own provider, and they think there are just some people who metabolize the Botox toxin faster than others. It isn't always in thinner, fitter people. Sometimes, it can be in heavier people. I think that's really speaking to our own physiology. Actually, what I do now is what we affectionately refer to as baby Botox. I do very small increments, but I do it more frequently and that's worked better for me. That's actually lasted longer than when I was doing, I don't know, 20 to 30 units every six months. Now, I do about half of that and do it more frequently. And that has worked well. I don't want to have a frozen face, I don't have any desire to pretend that I'm not a 50-year-old woman, but I even looked into research to see if there's anything to suggest. There's an association with being a faster metabolizer. There was nothing that I was able to locate, but I think this is probably just what makes you unique.

Jessica and I share the same issue. I think on a lot of levels that the more often those of us that are on platforms that are connecting with a large variety of men and women, the more transparent we can be. We can destigmatize talking about these kinds of things. I think there's absolutely no shame. If you choose to get filler, or you choose to get Botox, or you just choose to get a laser, or whatever it is you decide to do, there's no judgement. I think we each have to decide what works best for us. I just build this into my discretionary budget that I use. I just say, "Okay, every eight to 10 weeks this is what I do." I do a little bit of Botox at a time, and that works a whole lot better for me, and it ends up being the same amount of money, because I'm not doing as large of a dose. I'm just doing a little bit at a time and that's worked better for me. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I have not done Botox. I've been interested in doing it, actually. One of my friends said she did it. Well, she's done it in her face and then she did it for TMJ or I know it's not TMJ. It's TM. The right acronym is different. TMJ is actually just the name of the joint.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, that inflammation or people that have migraines still use it therapeutically.

Melanie Avalon: I clench my jaw and I get inflammation there. She said, "It's been a complete game changer getting it in her jaw actually." I'm glad to hear that you went into the research on the fasting. I probably would have thought that it speeds it up, but it's interesting to hear that there's not really any research. I was of the same opinion that people are so different. Some people metabolize things much faster than others and it's just really unique. I cannot agree more about the stigmas. I echo what you said and then what Jessica said, where she said that it's one piece of the puzzle for her overall wellbeing. I find it really ironic that and maybe I'm going to go on a soapbox, but we don't stigmatize makeup. And that's arguably changing your appearance. The only difference is that it's temporary and you can wash it off.

Cynthia Thurlow: Or, how's it different than a filter? That's the one thing I struggle with this a little bit, because I'm obviously 50 years old and listeners may hear me say this more than once that there's so much [smoke and mirrors, and it's not unique to any one age group. But there's absolutely nothing wrong if you want to get your hair highlighted, or you want to go to the gym and exercise, or you choose to use an injectable, or you want to get your teeth whitened. I think of it all on a similar continuum, although, I do find and I'm sure you probably see this on social media. Sometimes, if someone looks really good for their age, they just assume they have to had done something to themselves. I think that's unfair. There are some people who are just unicorns and they look great, probably rolling out of bed. But the rest of us may require a little bit of, I don't want to use the word, smoke and mirrors. We might require a little bit of makeup or we might require-- Maybe we've got Spanx on underneath their dress. These things that make us feel good about ourselves. It's not for external validation. It makes us feel better.

Melanie Avalon: If we're going to stigmatize cosmetic surgery fillers, Botox, I honestly think it should be in the exact same bucket as filters on Instagram, makeup, even the clothing you choose to wear, because all of it is be at the motive to make yourself feel more attractive for yourself or for other people. The motive is making you feel better in your own skin and your actual appearance. And so, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think people should just do what makes them feel good. Yeah, I have no issues with it at all. I do think it's really important to do your research and make sure you're working with practitioners, so that you'll be happy with it. So, it doesn't become something that you obviously regret.

Cynthia Thurlow: We don't want anyone to look like a muppet. That's my general gestalt. I have teenage boys and sometimes, they'll ask if they see something on TV or in a print ad. They'll say, "What's wrong with that person's face?" I'm probably going to guess they used a little too much filler." There's no judgement, but to each his own about what works for you and what aligns with you philosophically and otherwise. I just think the world is a better place when we don't pass judgment on one another and we just accept that we may have different opinions about a lot of different things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And with the judgment piece, what does it matter? What does it matter what somebody else looks like? [chuckles] Why do we have to judge them or even have a feeling about that either way? It's people's personal life.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think people get triggered, and then they get nasty, and they're keyboard warriors, and--

Melanie Avalon: Projection.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly, exactly.

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Melanie Avalon: All right, shall we answer one more question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep. This is from Leah. "Hello, I was introduced IF via Gin's book, Fast. Feast. Repeat by one of my best friends three weeks ago while I was visiting her. I quick read through two thirds of it while I was there. I agree with everything I saw so far and started IF that very day. Now, I'm binging the podcasts. Melanie, I just discovered you have a separate one like Gin does and will be starting that one very soon along with searching out your book, What When Wine. I'm on episode 104-ish of this one. I vaguely recall an episode with a guest. I think that mentioned testing urine pH or maybe it was in the Stories Podcast, but can't really remember what the pH is supposed to ideally test as alkaline or acidic, nor what this indicates.

I have a matchbook pH strips that I ordered immediately after hearing about such an easy and inexpensive way to test things, but ADHD and can't remember what I'm testing my pH for. Could you all shed some light on this, and maybe go into the science behind it or something? You both explain things so well and in layman's terms, so it makes sense to all of us listening. I did have another question originally, but I wanted to catch up on the present before asking. And although, I'm only a third of the way through the episodes, they've all been answered in the podcast so far. Joovv, Dry Farm Wines, and the bone broth people, I'll hear the name next podcast, LOL. All sounds awesome and I intend to give each one of them my business as I'm able and when I have the freezer space. Thanks for such awesome recommendations. Much appreciated. Leah."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Leah, thank you so much for your question. Perfect timing. The guests that you're referring to was Dr. Anna Cabeca, who we were talking about earlier. We'll put a link in the show notes to the episodes that we've had with her. But so, basically, the idea with urine testing for pH is that our bodies need to maintain a certain pH in the blood. I just asked Cynthia on it. She said, "It was what 7.35 to--"

Cynthia Thurlow: 7.45.

Melanie Avalon: 7.45. Here's the thing. People will often make the argument that your food choices and everything don't matter, because we don't really see a change in the blood pH, because our bodies buffer it accordingly, which tends to be true. When you measure your blood pH, you're usually not going to see it outside of the parameter that needs to be in. If you're eating a really acidic diet, for example, your body has to do things to buffer that acidic load and create the more alkaline state that needs to be in. That requires certain minerals and nutrients. Those have to come from somewhere. It's a stressful process for your body to maintain the pH that needs to be, if the diet that you are eating doesn't quite support that. The place that you can see that, because again, measuring your blood, it's probably not going to show up in your blood. You can see it in your urine, because that's where you're going to see the metabolic byproducts of that process. Measuring your urine with a pH strip can show you if your body actually is "more acidic." And again, the confusing thing about it is your body's actually not acidic, because your body is mitigating it but it's a stressful process that can be pulling minerals and such from your bones, for example, so eating a diet that supports a healthy pH state and they often call it an alkaline diet can support that.

And then there's a lot of controversy around that because there's a difference between-- If you go online and you google alkaline versus acidic foods, you're going to get a lot of different lists. Because some people will say, the certain foods are alkaline and acidic based on the actual food itself. Some people go by the PRAL score, which I think is more important and that's the potential renal acid load and that actually speaks to the metabolism of those foods and the resulting acidic or alkaline effect it has based on the ash that is created from those foods. I would go by those lists. You can just actually google PRAL, P-R-A-L. We can actually put a link in the show notes. There're some pretty good lists online. But yes, so, the purpose of the pH is to see if your body is more easily maintaining the pH that it needs to be at. What are your thoughts on that, Cynthia? I might have screwed some of that up.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think you did a beautiful explanation. When I think about pH and obviously, my backgrounds in ER med in cardiology. We did arterial blood gases. We were looking at really minutia of information on people who are very sick. I think that testing urine pH is certainly reasonable to be looking to see if you're leaning more alkaline or acidic. I think what's most important is that you're really leaning into a healthier, less processed diet. Lots of polyphenol rich foods, if you tolerate-- I start thinking about eat the rainbow along with less processed meats, eggs, fish, etc., you're going to more naturally lean towards an alkaline-based methodology. Do I routinely check my urine?" No, but my integrative medicine doc every once in while wants me to check. I have these strips in my house. You can buy on Amazon and it's very easy to do. I use it as a check in. I can pretty much tell you that I exist in an alkaline state more often than not, but if I were to eat too much dark chocolate or if I ate a bunch of processed food, I'm sure I'd probably lean more acidic. But I don't think anyone should worry or stress about this too much, because our body does a great job of buffering. We have bicarbonate, we have things in our bodies that are designed to buffer pH. There's a whole methodology in our respiratory system and our kidneys really do a nice job fine tuning this. So, don't put a lot of stress into it. I'm so glad that you are enjoying Gin's book. And yeah, there's so much goodness in this podcast. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Yeah, I've actually also heard, I don't know if this is true, but we actually talked about this before on the show when I was going down my rabbit holes of researching pH and alkaline and acidic states. People will say that the reason you sigh after a big meal is because one of the methods of offloading, because you're talking about all the different ways that we buffer that acidic load is actually through our breath. I don't know if that's the case, but it actually makes sense to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, you saying the lungs and the kidneys are what provide the buffering, whether it's alkalosis or acidosis. When you look at results from an ABG, it can show you how the body is trying to compensate and it's really cool. Back in my critical care days, I loved diving into all the science behind that. But the body really is very sophisticated. Unless you have a kidney problem or you have a respiratory problem, your body works very, very hard at fine tuning your blood pH and pH in your body overall because we know for homeostasis it's really important that we keep things in this very narrow parameter.

Melanie Avalon: I know we're running out of time, but even something-- Because when talking about how our body regulates things, it really is impressive. For example, calcium, people could be following a pretty low-calcium diet. I don't want to make absolutes. But if you go to the doctor and test your blood calcium, it's probably still going to be fine. It's really impressive what the body can do. Even when you think about blood sugar, I know we talk about people's blood sugar spiking. Even the massive spikes that we think of, if you compare that to the amount of sugar people are taking in that led to that, it's really impressive that the body even keeps it at numbers that we would think would still be really high. I think we see that with people who have type 1 diabetes because that's when they will get blood sugars that are even in the five hundreds or something. It's like, "Oh, so, this is what would be happening if the body actually couldn't regulate."

All righty, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. A reminder to listeners to definitely enter the giveaway that we talked about in the beginning of the episode that was to win an awesome collection of goodies from Cynthia's team, supplements and some really fun things. Check out our Instagram, @ifpodcast.com to see what you can win. And again, to enter, write a review of Cynthia's book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation on Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, wherever you got the book from. Send a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you into that giveaway. This is open to listeners in the continental United States only.

And then some more resources for you guys before we go. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode268. The show notes will have links to everything that we talked about as well as a full transcript. So, definitely check that out. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon on Instagram and Cynthia, I promise, Sunday, I'll remember your handle. Wait, let me try, let me try @_cynthia_thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: @cynthia_thurlow_. I know and for everyone who's listening, it is innately frustrating, because I was not able to have the same name across social media. So, yeah, my team even scratches their head. It's @cynthia_thurlow_ and I have a blue check, so, you'll be able to find me.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, you're very easily findable. So, that's good. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript Provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

May 29

Episode 267: Melatonin, The New Controversial IF Study, Fasting Insulin, Visceral & Subcutaneous Fat, Creatine Use For Men & Women, Sarcopenia, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Calorie Restriction with or without Time-Restricted Eating in Weight Loss

Welcome to Episode 267 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Discussing The New Calorie Restriction/IF Study

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 267 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 267 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with, Cynthia Thurlow. How are you today, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm doing well, my friend. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: What's crazy and new in your life? I know you're all over the place with shows, and book madness, and everything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, I think our mindset were four weeks away from a vacation. It's getting two teenage boys, and my husband, and myself mentally prepared. If anyone's listening has teenagers, that they grow so fast at this point that they have to try on a bunch of clothes, because where we're going to we're going to need some nicer things for dinner. And so, nothing that they had from last summer fits them. Absolutely nothing. There's been a lot of growing pains in this past weekend. Lots of boy hormones and nonsense, but I think we finally got it organized and under control. We live in a part of the country where we have four seasons. I was transitioning closets, and sheets, and all of these things, lots of motherly things, and then gearing up for a busy week of Everyday Wellness podcasting myself.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I know, how old are they?

Cynthia Thurlow: My oldest is 16 and my youngest is 14. One is six feet tall and the other one is 5'5". They're wonderful, but we have moments. Hormonal moments with boys, even though, they keep to themselves. I would say, it's almost living with a college student, because they stay up really late, they sleep in and I let them sleep in, because we're coming off of spring sports, we haven't yet started summer sports. And from my perspective, as long as they get good grades and they've got a nice group of friends. I'm pretty tolerant. But yeah, it's like they come out of their rooms to eat, and shower, and then they go back. They are like moles. I just think it's very different than when I grew up. My mother would not have been tolerant of that, but I just think it's coming off the past two years of a pandemic. The fact that they had an entire school year, where they were physically in school, and got to participate in sports, and got to spend time with friends that I'm like, "Them sleeping in on the weekend is really not a big deal," although, they do stay up later than my husband and I. It's a known fact. They're probably up till two on the weekend and then they sleep until noon.

Melanie Avalon: I'm researching sleep a lot, and adolescence, and even like in your teens and stuff you really do need more sleep. Whenever I read that, I get jealous of my former self because I still sleep in and so back then it was scientifically normal. And my mom as well always let me sleep in which I'm very grateful for.

Cynthia Thurlow: They really do need to sleep. If you understand physiologically what's happening with their bodies that to me, there's no value in waking them up at 7 AM and having them be really grumpy and disagreeable. I'm like, "I'd rather they sleep." Much to the same point, one of the blessings of the past few years is that I was much less regimented about getting up really early to go to the gym. And now, most days, I wake up without an alarm clock and my body naturally on its own will wake up somewhere between six and seven, and I'll go to bed between 9:30 and 10. But I think it's important for all of us to lean into our biologic needs as it pertains to honoring our own unique chronobiology. I know that I tend to get up early, and you tend to stay up late, and even as adults, I think each one of us has our own innate, I don't want to say peculiarities, but things that make us unique. I think I would never have survived working in medicine, if I was not someone that could get up early, because we had to be rounding really early in the morning like obscenely early.

Melanie Avalon: That's something that we'll carry on. Gin, as well was or is [chuckles] a lion, an early bird as well. We balance that dynamic. It's funny. I sleep in, I stay up really late, I work late, I sleep in, I still feel guilty about it every single morning. I should probably work on that. Because I don't think I need to be feeling guilty, but I do.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. No, you shouldn't. Well, because I think as a culture, we praise people.

Melanie Avalon: it's out of line with society.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's like we praise people. But now, if the past two years have taught us nothing, we have way more flexibility than we ever thought were possible. If you have the ability to work from home, find the schedule that works for you. I can tell you quite honestly, I would much rather work really hard while my kids are generally in school, and then late afternoon when carpool starts, I can jump into that, and then I can relax into my evening as opposed to-- Years ago, I would fight myself to stay up really late and work, and there's this law of diminishing returns that I fervently believe in. And for me, especially, when I was writing my book, I was like, "I'm much better in the morning. Much better in the early afternoon." And then as the day goes on, I get a little less patient and a little-- It's not that I can't do podcasts recordings, because I'm sure both of us have had to be flexible with people that live overseas or have varying types of different work schedules. But as a rule, I've just come to find out like I'm at my best earlier in the day.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. And I'm at my best at night.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] And so, we record in the afternoon when we're bridging both.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [chuckles] Works well. My mom, though, she's been very supportive of my sleep schedule like you, she let me sleep in. Every time I come to her, and lament my staying up late, and sleeping in late, she's like, "Melanie, that's just the way you are. Don't try to change it," because she's a night owl, too, and her mom and her dad are.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's really interesting. My mom was one of those people, who worked. She's always had a very demanding job. Before she retired as a CIO of a huge medical system, I think she was probably getting by on three or four hours of sleep a night. And now, that she's retired, it is so nice to see her actually sleeping in. There was a Sunday morning, I think I called her at nine and she was like, "Oh, we hadn't gotten up yet." I was like, "I'm glad to know you're becoming a normal human and listening to what your body needs." She even acknowledges now that all those years where she didn't get enough sleep and it impacted so many things including her metabolic health that she wishes she had listened more to what her body was trying to tell her.

Melanie Avalon: Have you interviewed Matthew Walker?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: I really want to interview him. He's the sleep guy. What's his book called?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm not familiar with his work. But yeah, I think all the chronobiology and all the research that's emerging about circadian biology to me is really fascinating. The more I understand and the more I can share with people. It just explains so much about melatonin clocks, and digestion, and why we shouldn't eat two to three hours before bedtime, and how that impacts insulin sensitivity. All of a sudden, all these things make sense. I don't know about you, but if I eat too late into the evening, my Oura Ring's just squawking at me the next day. Your heart rate was up, it was elevated overnight. I'm like, "How does it know I didn't even eat that much?"

Melanie Avalon: It's funny. I eat very late, and right up until bed, [chuckles] and my Oura Ring, so, It's interesting. I've hit a glass ceiling I think in that-- It'll say that I slept really great and it will give me a good readiness score. Actually, when I interviewed Harpreet, who was the CEO at the time of Oura, he's not anymore. I don't know-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: I know. I know, because I was trying to get him on the podcast and then they politely told me he was gone.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I saw that on Instagram. It says former CEO. I was like, "Oh." Basically, I could have a perfect sleep, but because I go to bed so late, even though, the Oura Ring knows I go to bed late, and it recommends that I go to bed at 2 AM, it's not going to give me over a certain score. Because one of the factors is, if you went to bed early, so, I think that hinders my score. But it's interesting. It will say, "Did you eat too close to bed?" But I still get a really good score.

Cynthia Thurlow: But I also think there's an age-related variable. I think Peter Attia was talking about as an example like HRV, if you plot it someone at 30 is going to get a different HRV than someone say, my age. I'm 50. If listeners don't know that, I'm 50. He was talking about like an HRV predicted average for a 30-year-old might be very different than someone at 50. I have patients that are always fixated on their HRV information or a variability, and I have to point them to his article and I'm like, "Maybe you need to take a look at this," because there is some age-related variance. Just like my bone mass and my muscle mass isn't going to be the same as it was in my 30s and that's okay. I think HRV is another one of those metrics that can be impacted by age. Just based on chronologic age, not that I'm not a good example of a healthy 50-year-old, there're some variances that you got that are unique to the aging process.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, I finally bit the bullet and subscribed to his subscriber feed. I'm working my way backwards through all of his Q&A episodes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: They are so good. I just listened to the HRV one. It took me a while to bite the bullet, but totally worth it.

Cynthia Thurlow: It was totally worth it. I was actually telling my husband is obsessed with Peter Attia and now, listens to his podcasts and Huberman. He's an engineer. To him, the level of detail he really appreciates, even though he's not someone that's an academic and he's works for a German-based company. I was trying to convince him to get the insider with Peter Attia and he was like, "Well, you can just tell me what I need to know." I was like, "Buddy, I take notes." When I listen to Peter, I have a notepad out, same thing with Huberman. I just take notes, because I'm learning so much. I think that's one of the really amazing attributes of podcasting is you have the ability to impact so many people unknowingly. It's a wonderful resource and it's a wonderful way to learn.

Melanie Avalon: If I get to interview him, I told you how I finally connected with his people, right? So, if I get to, I will be so nervous. I don't even know. Oh, my goodness.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that'd be a really cool thing.

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Melanie Avalon: For listeners, we have gathered some feedback, which I was posting in my Facebook group, IF Biohackers about Cynthia being on board, which is just so exciting. I'm already just so enjoying this. But it was interesting because people were putting comments of what they were looking forward to-- Oh, which if you haven't heard the announcement. If you would like to get the missing secret Episode Number One of this show, which was lost for a long time, and I did get a question about this. Somebody emailed and said, "I thought you said this was lost. How do you now have it?" It was lost. When Gin was working on making the transition, she was cleaning up her emails and everything, and she found it in our old emails to each other. That's how it randomly popped out of the universe. If you would like to hear the missing Episode number 1, we will send it to you. Just write a new or update your old iTunes review for this show and include in the review what you are excited to experience or learn about with Cynthia specifically, and email that to questions@ifpodcast.com, and we will send you that first episode.

All of that to say, one of the feedbacks that we have been getting is that people are really excited, especially, so, Cynthia is a Nurse Practitioner, and has a clinical background, and so, people I think are really excited for us to dive a little bit more into more clinical stuff, and studies, and things like that. We thought for today's episode, which is still listener Q&A, but we would start things off by, it was actually perfect timing. A study came out which a lot of you might be familiar with because it hit all of the headlines. The study itself is called "calorie restriction with or without time-restricted eating and weight loss." It was published on April 21st, 2022 in the New England Journal of Medicine. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode267. But in any case, what is so special about this study is that it took over the news. The headlines were things like, "time-restricted eating, no better than counting calories study finds," that was on CNN. New York Times said, "Scientists find no benefits to time-restricted eating." It definitely created a lot of controversy. We thought we would actually take a moment, and look at this study, what is it showing, what is it finding, are these headlines correct, and what they are portraying? You want to start Cynthia, anything to say about the study?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting. The media likes to just be sensational and sensationalize information. As soon as it came out, I went and pulled the study, and looked at it, read through it, and most of my clinical peers felt very similarly that when you're looking at research, and I'm not sure. If you've talked about this on the podcast before when you're looking at research, you want to look at how many people were enrolled, were they healthy, was there a breakdown? One of the things that stood out almost automatically was that I think the BMI range like as an example. Body mass index, which isn't per se necessarily, particularly accurate, especially if you're muscular. But the body mass index was between 28 and 40. And for context purposes, a BMI of 30 and above is obese and then 40 and above is considered to be morbidly obese for most metrics that are used. It stood out to me initially, they're saying that no one is diabetic. But yet, clearly, this is not the healthiest population of people to start with. That was the first thing that stood out.

Another thing that stood out for me was that in terms of looking at the population, there was no accountability for physical activity. They weren't observing people eating and they had some degree. I forget how the terminology they use, but there was some type of processed food products that they were expected to consume. We don't really know, per se, and this is why nutritional science is so confounding is that it's actually very hard to track with every single thing people put into their mouths, unless they're in a controlled environment. So, those were the first two things that stood out to me. How about you, Melanie? When you were looking at the research what stood out for you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I actually have it pulled up right here, so they can comment on what they were eating. They were following, for men, it was a 1,500 to 1,800 calorie per day diet and women, it was a 1,200 to 1,500 calorie per day. And then that processed food you were talking about was they were provided one protein shake per day for the first six months to help improve adherence, which speaks to what you just said that it's difficult when it's an outpatient study, where it's not controlled, [chuckles] where they're not in a metabolic ward receiving all of their food, it's difficult to actually have people to know exactly what they're eating and if they're adhering.

That was one of the big things that stood out. Because the study is talking about the benefits of intermittent fasting versus calorie restriction. It's actually shocking to me that they did not pull the participants on their ease of use. They didn't ask them at all about their psychological experience of it, because oftentimes, they'll ask that in studies. I forget the terminology they use, but it'll be like, "Was it difficult or not?" And they didn’t ask them that at all. We have no idea if the people who were doing the calorie restriction versus the fasting and calorie restriction, if one of those was an easier protocol to follow or not, which would have major implications for how this actually would apply to real life.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting not to interrupt you, but one of the other things that something you said reminded me of this one issue. When you were looking at the macro breakdown to the breakdown of protein, fat, and carbs. I was like, you already have a potentially, metabolically unhealthy group and it was very heavy on carbohydrates. I'm not anti-carb. Let me be really clear. I don't think that everyone has to be low carb or ketogenic. But if you already have a population of people that are being enrolled in a study that we know are probably insulin resistant or at least are diabetic, even though they screen for diabetes, but there's no way someone with a BMI of 40 is not insulin resistant. It's really interesting to me that instead of pushing the protein lever, it was still a very carbohydrate focused diet. With a macro breakdown to me was not the macro breakdown I suggest for people when they're trying to lose weight.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, that's an excellent point. I wonder the screening, because they did screen for diabetes. I wonder if they were screening for type 1 and type-- They're probably screening for both, but they didn't screen at all for prediabetes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. The conventional Western medicine or allopathic model is still really looking at fasting glucose and A1c, which is a 90-day snapshot of blood sugar control. The thing that I like to always introduce, well, your fasting blood sugar can be okay and your A1c can still be okay. But if your fasting insulin is dysregulated, that's oftentimes the very first biomarker that will dysregulate, they're very likely not even looking at that. I can't tell you how many people, like, I talked to them and they'll share their labs and I'm like, "Where's the fasting insulin?" Then they get a fasting insulin back. And instead of being between two and five, which is where ideally it should be, it's 20. I'm like, "Okay, well, this explains why your weight loss resistant."

I don't think that they provided information about how they were screening. I agree with you that that could have also very likely been a way that they may have missed people, who would not have been metabolically flexible enough to be able to participate in a meaningful way. Not to mention the fact that oftentimes, insulin resistance can also be connected with leptin resistance. I'm sure our listeners are really savvy about leptin being this other hormone. I just start to think about all of the little nuances like as a clinician that I didn't see were even addressed or mentioned in that study. I think the other piece is like, New England Journal of Medicine is a preeminent Journal. Even really good journals can have research in them that cause us all to scratch our heads and say, "Okay, well, it was helpful. We have to do more research to look at these variables, and we have to be even more conscientious about who we're enrolling in these studies, and what's really going on for them outside of this laboratory environment."

Melanie Avalon: So, something you said sparked a very tiny little baby rabbit hole for me tangent. Actually, the episode I was listening to last night that Peter Attia, Q&A episode, I was listening to the one on continuous glucose monitors and he was talking about, "Would we ever have a continuous insulin monitor?" The potential with that or the issues with that he answered the question of what did he think was the first biomarker that would be off that would indicate prediabetes or headed that route? Do you want to guess what it was?

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably, not going to be like uric acid or something like that.

Melanie Avalon: It's in the realm of what you were talking about.

Cynthia Thurlow: So, did he think it was insulin?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, but what type. when?

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably, postprandial?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Basically, after eating, the insulin that would be the first thing. But that's something that we're not really ever testing. So, that's why he was saying, one of the benefits of having a continuous insulin monitor would pick up on that. In any case, back to the study. I guess, we can talk about what it actually found. This is probably the first thing that stood out to me the biggest thing, which was, if you had come to me and said, "We're going to do a study, where we will compare people on calorie restriction and then people on calorie restriction with fasting," what do you think we'll find? Honestly, I think I would say, "What this study found is pretty much exactly what I would have anticipated finding," which is I would anticipate that they both lose weight or I would guess that the fasting people would lose a little bit more weight. But I wouldn't think that it would be a massive amount more, because both are calorie restricted. I would expect that all other biomarkers would probably improve a little bit more in the fasting group, which is exactly what this study found, despite the lack of "statistical significance," which is something I can comment on in a little bit of detail. We'll put a link in the show notes.

Jason Fung did a nice write up on this in his Substack. We can put a link to that. He talks about this in that right up. But basically, for people who aren't familiar, when you have a study, significance means statistical significance. It doesn't mean because if people hear significance, they might think it means like, "Oh, that was like a really good effect." But it just means that it's showing statistically that this is happening. But I think a lot of people don't realize is, it's not you do the study, and then you look at the data, and then you determine if what you found was statistically significant. It's set up from the beginning to only be statistically significant if a certain outcome happens. That's a subtle nuance, but it's really important and it has to do with something called powering a study.

This study was powered to find a weight loss difference of 2.5 kilograms, which is five and a half pounds. What that means is that if the fasted group did not lose five and a half pounds more than the other group, then the conclusion is it's not statistically significant. What ended up happening was, the fasting group lost about four pounds more, not 5.5. Because of that, they can conclude, "Nope, there's no statistical significance," which I think is doing a bit of disservice to the whole concept. What Jason talks about in his write up is he says that if you look at the numbers, so, basically, the calorie restriction group, they lost 6.3 kilograms after 12 months, which means that the fasting group in order to be statistically significant would have had to have a 40% increase in weight loss, numbers wise.

As Jason points out in his overview, that's a really high bar, [chuckles] especially when they're already losing a significant amount of weight. But when I say significant, I don't mean statistically significant. In any case, the study was underpowered. Not that it was set up to fail, sort of was. We can put a link in the show notes. Peter Attia also has a really nice write up, where he it's a five- or six-part series, where he talks about how to interpret and read studies. He talks about this about powering studies and he talks in that about how just because something is not statistically significant, it doesn't mean that it's not showing something. And just because something shows something, they don't necessarily correlate. So, I have other thoughts, but I'll stop because that was a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think you did an excellent job. I think on a lot of levels, right after that study came out, I jumped on and did a really short IG live saying, "This is not going to change my perspective on fasting." I think this really speaks to the fact that the media likes to jump on one little snippet and say to propagate this misinformation that, "Oh, fasting isn't valuable." I always explained that if you looked at the groups, the fasting group always did better. It just didn't reach, as you mentioned, the statistical significance that had been set up prior to the study starting. I think this is a really important reason for why even at a very basic level, each one of us need to understand how to properly interpret a study or even to be able to look at some of the big highlights that you and I have talked about, so that you can examine it and say, "Is this really valid?" Can we extrapolate from one study, that fasting is invaluable or is not valuable, rather? I think it really goes back to not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, I hate that expression, but it just seems really appropriate in the circumstance. And certainly, you and I both have seen thousands and thousands of people that have benefited from eating less often.

The other piece is, and someone asked me this, and I never dove down the rabbit hole to figure out who had sponsored the study. I know it was done in China, but I don't know who sponsored the study. Because sometimes, when you see who's sponsoring particular research, it makes you understand why they're getting results that might be contrary to what is commonly believed to be true.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It says that it was supported by some Grants National Key Research and Development Project, Outstanding Youth Development Scheme of Nanfang Hospital, a lot of other research programs. It's just so interesting. In a way, it's arbitrary. If the researchers had decided beforehand, let's set it up to look for a four-pound difference, then it would have been a completely different interpretation. Isn't that crazy? You would have a completely different headline, same findings, probably, to that point about the benefits extending beyond just the fasting. Basically, in the fasting group, because they looked at the participants results six months out and 12 months out, and basically, everything got better in the fasting group compared to the calorie restriction groups. The HOMA-IR, which is huge comparing insulin and glucose, the insulin, glucose, HDL, triglycerides, blood pressure were all better in the fasting group. LDL was very similar in the two groups, which is interesting. I don't know why that might be. I was actually wondering if you had any theories on why the LDL is really interesting. At six months, it was down negative 5.9 in the fasting group and down negative 11.3 in the calorie restriction group. So, almost double. But then it evened out at 12 months. Negative 8.4 compared to negative 8.9.

Cynthia Thurlow: I wonder if it's really a marker in that instance of inflammation and a reduction in oxidative stress, because it's not uncommon. For listeners benefit, when we're looking at LDL, it's only one piece of a puzzle. I always like to look at advanced lipid analysis. Looking at particle size and as an example, you can have light and fluffy or you can have dense and small. The latter, it tends to be more atherogenic. If you're already looking at a population that to me sounds, they're not metabolically healthy. I think that weight loss is probably what's driving the lowered LDL numbers. Why the HDL--? Well, they didn't account for physical activity. I think that was one of the things that stood out to me, because we know that HDL is-- There are many things that impact HDL, obviously. But one of the things that's impacted by HDL is exercise. If these people were couch potatoes, I don't know what the equivalent would be. I don't know how physically active this group was. I'm assuming they weren't. That could account for why there wasn't a significant change in their HDL, my first thought.

Melanie Avalon: I think the biggest difference just looking through the charts, the area of abdominal subcutaneous fat was really different. At 12 months, the calorie-restricted group lost 37 centimeters squared and the time-restricted eating group lost 53.2.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's significant.

Melanie Avalon: This was subcutaneous. The visceral was still it was 21 for the calorie restriction and 26 for the fasted group.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, so that differentiators, the subcutaneous fat is an annoying fat. That's the one that most of us, when we think about fat on our bodies that we don't like, that's not as pathogenic as visceral fat. I think that with weight loss, you'll see changes in both, but one is certainly more significant than the other. And obviously, where we carry fat is significant. On our butt, in our thighs, as women is much less significant than our abdomen area like our truncal. They call it truncal obesity, but that area is much more significant, because that's closer to our major organs and generally correlates with metabolic inflexibility and insulin resistance.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. That's all in my head right now because I'm prepping to interview Sara Gottfried on Monday, who Cynthia just interviewed as well. She talks a lot about the role of different types of fat in the body and how it changes for women in menopause and good times. But yeah, so, basically, it's frustrating, honestly, because the study showed in my opinion, really great things about fasting and just the takeaways in the headlines are just so not representative of what it actually found. And then on top of that, I can see the benefit of comparing fasted calorie restriction to calorie restriction. But at the same time, I think, in general, the reason people love fasting is they get the benefits without the calorie restriction. I was reading one comment on the study and I actually laughed, because it's not funny, but it's the type of thing I would laugh at and it was like-- Somebody said, "Well, basically, all the studies showed is that calorie restriction works," which yes, [laughs] if it's actually controlled.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and I think it goes back to there's always this debate about calories versus the carb, insulin hypothesis, and weight loss. It's two different dogmas really fighting fervently to better understand what drives inflammation, and weight loss resistance, or weight gain, and so. The debate is still out there. There's no question that fasting is a valuable resource. For a lot of people, who don't want to calorie count and I'm definitely one of them, I just enjoy knowing that I can eat within a particular window and I can modulate a lot of different factors that helped me maintain a healthy weight.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I think what's interesting and this is a question that has stuck with me in my show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I've interviewed so many people, but every now and then I ask a guest a question, and it just sticks with me asking them, and it sticks with me their answer. And one of those questions was, when I had James Clement on the show. He wrote a book called The Switch and we've become really good friends. But I asked him all of these different things like fasting, calorie restriction, protein restriction, are they additive, or are they all activating similar pathways? So, they're not additive. He said, "They're not." They basically cancel each other out. If you're doing calorie restriction and calorie restriction in fasting, you're not necessarily going to see a huge additive benefit, because they both work by similar mechanisms even though fasting doesn't necessarily require calorie restriction. They activate similar pathways. So, yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: I haven't interviewed him, yet.

Melanie Avalon: He's lovely. Although, I was just talking to him, because [chuckles] I was giving him my monologue of what I thought about the study and to see what his thoughts were and he said he basically agreed. So, I felt good. [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Good to have that validation.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was like, "Okay, from the scientist." He runs a lab that studies the blood work of super centenarians. He did this huge super centenarian study, and then he wrote The Switch, and right now he's actually working with Steve Horvath, who I would die to interview. [laughs] George Church wrote the foreword to his book, it's all the big wigs in the genetics world. He did say, last night, he's not really doing podcast interviews anymore. I don't think they're his thing.

Cynthia Thurlow: A lot of those researchers-- I always think like Rick Johnson, for anyone that's listening, he's this amazing fructose researcher. But he is probably one of the most gregarious, happy, extroverted researchers I've ever met in my entire life. I thought when I recorded with him that it was so dense in terms of content that I was like, "Well, I'm going to be curious to see how this resonates with my listeners" and they loved it. They're like, "Oh, my gosh, he makes it so clear." I agree with you that sometimes these research folk tend to be a little more cerebral, they're a little more introverted, they might be less comfortable doing podcast interviews, which is a shame because I think podcasting is such an amazing way to really get a sense for what people are doing and to share ideas in a way that can inspire others to take better care. My feeling is, I listen to podcasts, because I'm always looking for another angle to look at to help patients take better care of themselves. But not all of us are extroverts and introverts. Some people are just true introverts. The thought of being on a podcast probably gives them hives.

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Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you brought Rick up. When Gin and I were discussing, transitioning her out of the show, and I wasn't sure yet about Cynthia, I was like, "Oh no, I need to bank up some interviews." I actually reached out to Rick to see if you'd like to come on this show, because I just think his content is so valuable and listeners of this show would really love his work, because I had him on the other show. So, I'm actually interviewing him for this show. I don't know when we'll air it, but just to have it. I'm interviewing him this week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think he's amazing. He's probably easily one of my favorite interviews I've done this year.

Melanie Avalon: He's just fabulous. [laughs] So, listeners get excited. I'm not sure when we'll air that, but we will have an episode on this show with him upcoming. Okay, I think we tore that study apart. Again-- [chuckles] For listeners, again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode267. We'll put a link to that study there. If you want to read the whole study, it is in the New England Journal of Medicine. Right now, only the abstract is available, but you can sign up for a New England of Journal Medicine account and you get I think at the beginning three free studies. Use them wisely. [laughs] So, you can grab this one if you like. Okay, shall we jump into some listener questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, this is very exciting, because Cynthia and I were brainstorming about topics to talk about and Cynthia, specifically, wanted to talk about creatine and I was like, "Well, I got you covered," because if listeners are curious, we have this massive document of all questions that have ever been submitted to the show ever and it is hundreds and hundreds of questions. If there's ever a topic we actually want to talk about, we don't have to make up a question. I just have to go in there and find it, because I'm sure somebody has submitted one before. We have two questions about creatine that I'm going to read and then I'm super curious to get Cynthia's thoughts on this. The first question is from Zach and the subject is: "Creatine." And Zach says, "Hi, thank you for all the work you do on this podcast. I'm a former American football player, who has had great success using intermittent fasting one meal a day, paleo eating, and HIIT workouts to lose weight and develop an awesome fulfilling lifestyle. When I finished playing football, I was 300 pounds with zero diet discipline. Luckily, my brother." Hi, John, "told me about your podcast and your books and in the 10 months since my football career ended, I've lost about 80 pounds. I'm still losing weight, but I am also at the point, where I would like to work on muscle mass and tone again. In pursuit of this, I've hidden my scale, opting instead to focus on being happy with my body and not relying on what the scale tells me for my happiness. I use a one-meal-a-day approach. While I have tons of energy for my workouts, I am looking for something to maximize my muscle recovery given my intense workouts. In the past, I've had success taking creatine for this purpose, but that was during my football, eat everything, and get as huge as possible regardless of impact on your body stage. That's my comment." That sounds really intense. He says, "I don't think that creatine has been discussed on the show yet and if so, I apologize for the repeated question. What are your thoughts about supplementing creatine, whether it is beneficial or harmful? If beneficial, when to take it, how much to take, etc.? Thank you so much in advance and keep up the amazing work." And then, Cynthia actually got a DM question from Laura Dana or Laura Dana. And she says, "That she would like advise/education on using creatine as a woman. When, how much, expected reaction, brand? Thanks." She says she loves Cynthia's book, which, by the way is Intermittent Fasting Transformation. So, creatine questions from a man and a woman.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love it. It's interesting. I started working with a new trainer in 2021 like out of her mouth, the first thing she said to me and she's very research based, she's a former attorney, she's just incredible. She was like, "You need to use creatine." I was like, "Wait a minute." I was like, "I've heard so many conflicting things." For benefits of the listeners, there are sex differences between the utilization of creatine. But in terms of benefits, they include things like increased muscular endurance, they increase muscular power, strength, they can improve bone health, and we know that it improves brain health, and it can improve cognitive function, and it helps recycle ATP, which I'm sure Melanie and Gin have talked about, it decreases the effects of sleep deprivation, improves mood and memory. There's lots of benefits, obviously.

And obviously, the first question comes from someone who played what sounds to be professional football. The second question comes from a young woman, who's asking and so, what I always say is that there are sex-related differences with creatine. We know that women make 70% to 80% less amounts of endogenous creatine in their muscle tissue. But what's interesting is we have increased higher resting concentrations of creatine. It's like, what we do have is significant in terms of, it's almost like testosterone. Women make less testosterone, but what we have in our bodies is the most bioavailable hormone. So, much the point of what we're saying with creatine, there are sex-related differences. What's interesting though is when I looked at the research, we know that there are changes during our menstrual cycles with creatine. We actually get, when we have a more higher estrogen state, so in the follicular phase, we have increased creatine kinase and this can impact glucose oxidation. We know that creatine supplementation in women can be really beneficial in perimenopause and menopause, can actually improve muscle, bone strength and help ward off sarcopenia, which is a term that is essentially muscle loss with aging.

It's not a question of if but when, it starts to accelerate after 40. For those that aren't aware, we have peak bone and muscle mass in our 20s and 30s. I, of course, didn't appreciate this until I got to middle age. It's really important. I think even if you're looking at a review of randomized controlled studies, it definitely looks like supplementation with creatine has a lot of benefits. If people want us to go into a deeper dive into these things, there's a lot. It's so interesting. If you look at the research, sometimes, people will talk about needing a loading phase. I'm not sure, per se, that we all need a loading phase. But I do think it is interesting and what I generally recommend people aim for is a gram a day and the product that I use and take which was recommended to me by my trainer. I want to give her full credit is a product called Con-Cret. It's CON-CRET. And the manufacturer is Promera Sports. You can go to their website.

What I like that is important is that a lot of times people are worried about taking creatine, because they think it's going to make them bloated, it's going to make them look bulky. As it pertains to women, we just don't have enough circulating testosterone for that to be an issue. Obviously, I use one scoop a day in a protein shake and that works really well for me. Do I feel like it has to be timed around workouts? No. That's oftentimes the question I get. But I do take it during my feeding window. I don't take it in a fasted state. I would imagine men could definitely start with a higher starting dose. This Con-Cret product, it's 750 milligrams in a scoop. Obviously, if we're aiming for a gram a day, you probably want a little more than a scoop and a half or a woman. For a man, you might want a product that has more concentration of the product per scoop. Because for men, it was looking like maintenance phase is somewhere between two to five grams a day. Now, with that being said, I think low and slow is the way to go. Try it out, see how you feel, be careful sourcing supplements on Amazon. I don't know if you've talked about this before.

Melanie Avalon: We talk about this so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. You may actually get something legitimate on Amazon, but the statistical likelihood is pretty low. As it pertains to creatine, you can go directly to the Con-Cret website. I have no affiliation with them whatsoever. But that's generally the recommendation, because there's a lot of junk that's out there. I'm not going to name stores that I think of when I say this, but you really want to look like-- My trainer at one point was an IFBB like bodybuilder. She now looks like a very petite normal person. But this is the product she uses and recommends for her clients, and she's very research based, and very smart. And so, I always like to give her props. But creatine, yes. Creatine supplementation, especially for women really important. We don't have as much circulating in our tissues. In our menstrual cycles, we definitely want to be supplementing it. If we are perimenopausal, menopausal, we want to be more apt to be utilizing creatine because it can help with muscle and bone strength. Like I mentioned, it's not an if but when. Sarcopenia will happen if we don't work against it. That's why Melanie and I always talk about this. You have to eat enough protein, make sure you're doing some weightbearing exercise, getting high-quality sleep, all of which can help you ward off sarcopenia.

Melanie Avalon: I love this. Did you listen to--? How many times can we say Peter Attia on today's episode? Do listen-- [laughs] We're such fan girls. Did you listen to his interview with Layne Norton, recently?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not, because I went down a rabbit hole listening to-- So, do you know the Low Carb MD Docs?

Melanie Avalon: I do. Who are they? I think so.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's Dr. Tro and then Brian Lenzkes. They're very good friends. But Tro and biolane as he calls himself have had some knockdown drag outs. But they did actually have a very respectful conversation. I've listened to him on a few other people's podcasts and I have to set aside the time, because as anyone who knows Peter Attia, or Huberman Lab, or any of those, it can sometimes be a two-and-a-half-hour conversation. I have to mentally be on my game to set aside that amount of time and take notes. I haven't listened yet. That was my long explanation for having listened yet, but I do intend to.

Melanie Avalon: Do you what's funny? Speaking of sleep earlier, I listen to very specific podcasts at night during my routine. The shows I listen to at night are always either Ritual, Well-Fed Women, or Peter Attia. I just wonder if I were to listen to Peter Attia during the day, if I would get sleepy, because I'm so conditioned to-- It's like my wind down. I find it very comforting to hear him talk about. [laughs] In any case, though, that recent episode, we can put a link to in the show notes, because they did a deep dive into creatine. Layne was talking about the importance of what you just talked about of finding a good version. They were talking a lot about all the claims that are often put on them are just marketing.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Melanie will share the research study I shared with her via text message before we jumped on. My hope is that we are going to be able to offer up some research-based opinions on a lot of topics that people are interested in learning more about. And obviously, if people are interested in learning more, I actually have a lot of notes. I took a lot of notes when I was reading a lot of research articles, because there's a lot to creatine, it's really interesting. Maybe what we'll do is create a mini-creatine PDF or something in the future.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that'd be amazing. Questions for you. "Should everybody be taking creatine?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, from what it sounds like, I didn't see any major contraindications. Meaning, things that people shouldn't be doing. But I think when women are in their follicular phase, that's when actually creatine is at its lowest. It's reduced in pregnancy, it's obviously lower in postmenopausal women. Obviously, if you're pregnant, I'm not advocating you take this. Let me just put that caveat in there. You have to have a conversation with your OB or your nurse midwife. But menstruating women, yes. Postmenopausal and Perimenopausal women, yes. Because what people don't understand is that muscle loss with aging also impacts our insulin sensitivity, and impacts our metabolic health, and we want to do everything we can to maintain as much lean muscle mass as we can throughout our lifetime. What's interesting is we become insulin resistant in our muscles first. This is really important for people to understand.

To me, I want to do everything I can to preserve my muscle mass and to continue to build it. I know you're going to interview Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. She's a good friend and I've interviewed her on my podcast. We can even include that link. But she is a muscle protein synthesis expert and she talks a lot about these kinds of topics. I always say she's rubbed off on me entirely, forced me to really understand muscle physiology to different level. For everyone that's listening, unless you're pregnant, I'm not making any blanket statements about pregnant women. But menstruating women, men, and women in middle age like perimenopause and menopause, you can benefit from this. I think it's fairly inexpensive. I want to say, when I bought Con-Crete, I think it was under $25 and it's got 64 servings. You might buy a couple of these a year trying to see how you feel it does for you. But for me, because I'm at a stage where I need to continue to preserve, and maintain, and build what I have, and I'm working at a hormonal disadvantage at this stage. If you're under the age of 40, you're at a hormonal advantage to someone who's middle age. So, it's easier to build and maintain muscle. But at my stage, I have to work harder at it and I'm okay with that. I'm not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: "Since it's an amino acid would you consider breaking the fast?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I would take it. I take it in a shake. To me, I can consume it in a feeding window. I think one of the things that I've seen pretty consistently in your communities and our new shared communities, but also in your own community, people are trying to figure out like, "When they can take something?" When they can't take it, take this with food, or take this with a meal, or take it in a shake. There's no taste to it. I've even put it on water. That's not my preferred way, but you don't have to take it immediately after exercise. Just like you don't have to consume 30 grams of protein immediately after exercise. Your body keeps track over a 24-hour period of time. Don't get caught up in the before and after nonsense. There's so much misinformation about that in particular that I just see across social media. People are paralyzed about when to take stuff. This is definitely something worth taking in your feeding window.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that was actually something from the Layne Norton episode. He's all about eat protein constantly all day.

Cynthia Thurlow: Have you seen him? He's pretty big. He's a big guy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's interesting about the creatine, so, it recently, semi-recently came on my radar, independent of all of this conversation. I'm going to interview a guy named Simon Hill, he wrote a book called The Proof Is in the Plants. Do you know him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-mm.

Melanie Avalon: He's big in the vegan world. He was on Rich Roll and they were talking about creatine because there is this study that is, I guess, hotly debated. It's called The Influence of Creatine Supplementation on the Cognitive Functioning of Vegetarians and Omnivores. And basically, what it did was it looked at omnivores and vegetarians before with no creatine supplementation, and then gave them these different cognitive tests, and then had an arm who took creatine to see how they performed with the creatine. When they did that the vegetarian arm performed way better, way better. Whereas before, they had been pretty similar in their performance on the cognition test. It's complicated and the reason it's debated is people debate about how to interpret those findings. But the main way it's been interpreted is, since the vegetarians did way better with creatine supplementation than the omnivores indicates that maybe they were deficient in creatine. That might be something to consider, which is that if you are everything. Cynthia was just saying, if you're not getting all of your protein, or if you're on a vegetarian, or a vegan diet, this definitely might be something that you would like to supplement with.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I'm so glad you brought that up because that was a part of my little segue. The other thing that I just want to interject that I thought was interesting is, we know that creatine has benefits on sleep, because it interacts specifically with glycine and GABA. These are these inhibitory neurotransmitters in the brain. A lot of people take GABA before bed. But I will say that since I've been taking creatine, I feel there's a whole mountain of things I take to support sleep. I'll be totally transparent. But when I've been consistently taking certain supplements, I've definitely noted an improvement in my sleep quality for sure. But there's also research to show that it can be helpful for sleep support as well.

Melanie Avalon: Out of curiosity, what have been some of the main things that you've implemented that you've noticed? Again, it's hard like you just said because there are so many factors. But what are some of the things that you've noticed the biggest effects on your sleep?

Cynthia Thurlow: In terms of supplementation or just lifestyle?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess, anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: I would say GABA and L-theanine for me have been huge, huge. Those two in particular and then high-dose melatonin, and obviously, north of 40, we make less melatonin. Just like every other hormone, we start producing less and less of things. I started working with a new integrative medicine doc towards the tail end of 2021. When he looked in his labs, the first thing he said was, "Oh, my God, you need some melatonin." I said, "Well, my sleep isn't that bad." And then we started talking about the role of melatonin and how it's this master antioxidant. And so that's something I've been using with my own patient's, high-dose melatonin that has really been life changing. This is not medical advice. Obviously, have a conversation with your healthcare provider. But if you're north of 40, you're making less of it and melatonin is more than just helping you sleep. I think those three things for me, the GABA, the L-theanine, the high-dose melatonin has really made a tremendous net impact. I think you're going to interview Dr. John Lieurance, right on your Biohacking.

Melanie Avalon: I did interview him.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. He reschedules, I reschedule. He reschedules, but he has a product called Sandman. Have you tried it?

Melanie Avalon: No, it's in my refrigerator.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it freaks everyone out, because it's per rectum, which my entire family thinks it's hilarious. I only maybe use it once a week. But wow, that stuff-- it's pretty powerful. Don't be afraid of it. But I think when you're younger, there's probably less need of being on super physiologic dosing. I look forward to connecting with him because the more I learn about chronobiology, and circadian biology, and melatonin, the more I feel I'm just I'm like, "Wow, my eyes are open to a whole new world."

Melanie Avalon: I think you and I talked about this when I interviewed you on my show. But I interviewed John, I read his book, which is I think called like Melatonin Miracle or something like that. I was like, "Well, this is very convincing." I still even despite reading his whole book, which talks a ton about there not being a feedback loop system that would hinder your natural melatonin production, I was still not quite sold. He sent me that you use different words that I normally hear. What word did you use for it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, per rectum, it's how you take it. I was trying to explain to people like you put it up your bum, that's how you take it. It's a very vascular area. So, it's a good way to administer medications or supplements.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, what's funny-- It's fit in my refrigerator. I feel like John will text me every month or so. I'll be like, "Have you tried it yet?" I'm like, "It's still there."

Cynthia Thurlow: No, don't freak out about it. But I do agree with you, Melanie. Even when I was talking to Michael Breus, I asked him what he thought about high-dose melatonin. He wasn't a fan. I think it always needs to be taken in the context of, for me, I'm 50 years old. My body makes less of it. I sleep better with some supplementation. I'm okay with it. But would I have taken that at 30? Probably, not. Your body's still making vibrant amounts of that hormone and so I think maybe cut it in half and use half the dose.

Melanie Avalon: Well, two things shifted my thinking on that. One was I-- Three things. One was, when I got COVID, the doctor I was working with who is more-- He's a conventional MD, but more open minded. Part of his protocol was getting on melatonin for COVID. I was taking pretty high-dose melatonin during that and not experiencing any perceived negative benefits of that. And then two other things happened. One, the melatonin I currently use is by Pure Encapsulations. It's the exact same bottle as my digestive enzymes. Same size, same color, same everything. I take an exuberant amount of digestive enzymes, like a ton, especially I eat pounds and pounds of protein. I took half a bottle, not realizing it. [chuckles] What was interesting was, I woke up the next day, because I didn't realize that I'd taken that much-- I didn't realize until the next night that I'd taken in half a bottle of melatonin. I was like, "Oh, okay, I think may be my perception--" I didn't experience any feelings of grogginess or anything. I just felt really good the next day. I was like, "I wonder how much my perception of melatonin making me feel too drowsy or an issue. How much of that is psychological?" Because when I took half a bottle not realizing it, it was fine.

The third thing that sold me on it was interviewing Dr. Steven Gundry for his newest book. His book, Unlocking the Keto Code, he talks a lot about the mitochondria in the cell and everything that's happening with energy production. And even though, John Lieurance talked about in his book, I don't think I really grasp the fact until I read Stephen Gundry's Unlocking the Keto Code that in our cells, the two things that are really keeping those mitochondria going and serving as antioxidants are glutathione and melatonin. Then I was like, "Oh, so, melatonin, it has a lot of benefits on a cellular level beyond just sleep." Now, I do supplement with it more. I'm trying to find my right dose, but I take at least one of my pills each night. I think it's three milligram.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it sounds appropriate. It's funny. MD Logic makes a product and I was transitioning from designs for health. They have a sustained release formulation. In my mind, I was like, "Okay designs for healthy dose and I'll make the equivalent with this other product." It's the first time I've taken too much melatonin. Three of the same, it was the same dose, but MD Logic's product was stronger. I woke up the next day and I could barely get my eyes open. I was like, "The thing you do if you've taken too much melatonin as you get sunlight exposure on your retinas that will help suppress melatonin, increase cortisol." I'm oversimplifying, but yeah, I got out and took a two mile walk outside in the Sun without sunglasses, and then felt better. But I was like, "Whoa, that is not the same. It's much stronger."

Melanie Avalon: Which brings us back to the importance of vetting your brands. There actually is a study, when I was researching, I think for this show, I was researching, when they test supplements, the actual-- what's included in the supplement and there's a study on testing melatonin supplements. Oh, my goodness, the range of what was in them compared to what they said is just so scary. [chuckles] You definitely want to make sure that you are taking brands that you trust, and it sounds like MD Logic's melatonin probably, actually has what it says it has.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, no, no, it was unbelievable. I was stunned. I think after many years of prescribing medications, and supplements, and things like that, I'm pretty savvy. But that was a little humbling. I was like, "Oh, thank God, I'm glad I didn't have to be talking on a stage that morning. I would have been feeling I was struggling a bit." I'm like, "I got a little too much melatonin," but you can work around that.

Melanie Avalon: If you would like to get their melatonin, we'll put a link to their website in the show notes, but the code, MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount code on their website. So, okay, well, this was so fun. I'm excited, because this was our first-- Last week, I just interviewed you. But this was our first normal episode [chuckles] and I really enjoyed it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. No, it's nice to have a forum to be able to discuss some of these things, because it's hard on social media. I endeavor to try to respond like when that New England Journal medicine article came out, I did a very brief IG live, just so that it was available to be able to send out and share with people. But as I'm sure you're in the same boat, it's impossible to get to every question and answer every question. I look forward to seeing what the listeners want to learn more about. And obviously, we didn't get to all the questions that we've been asked. So, we'll get to those in future episodes.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Yeah, it's really nice to have, especially the creatine as well, to have had a foundational conversation. Then in the future, when people are like, "What about creatine?" We can be like, "We talked about it on the IF podcast. For listeners, if you go to ifpodcast.com, there is a search feature there. Because we have transcripts for all the episodes, you'll usually find the episode, where we talked about it, which is really nice. Definitely take advantage of those transcripts and the search function, which some resources for you guys. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. I will say, Cynthia, you're one of my Instagram role models. [chuckles] You do it so well. You do all those IG lives and I'm like, "Ah." They drain me so much, the IG lives.

Cynthia Thurlow: You and I've learned shorter is better. Not only does it get more views, because I used to get so many questions when I would do Ask Me Anything. I was like, "Oh, I'm going to do an IG live and I'll answer all them all at once." No, no, it turns into an hour-long discussion. I told my team, "Now, I'm going to just be targeted." When I come on, I've got something to say. My team did reels yesterday that has gotten some interesting feedback. I may have to address that in an IG live this Week at some point.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, exciting. For listeners, if you'd like to see all of that content, okay, tell me your handle, again. There are underscores in it, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's @cynthia_thurlow_. If anyone who's wondering, I used to have a business name. And so, after the viral TED talk, I got the bright idea that I was going to change all of my social media handles to the same thing. The unfortunate thing for me was that a lot of the handles that I wanted were already taken by other Cynthia Thurlow. So, I was left with-- It's bizarre constellation of different usernames on different platforms. But yeah, @cynthia_thurlow_, you'll see me there.

Melanie Avalon: And I am just @melanieavalon. I've actually been pretty surprised with social media that knock on wood. Melanie Avalon was pretty much always available everywhere. Even on Venmo, [chuckles] it's like a unique name that I guess nobody has.

Cynthia Thurlow: This is my married last name. And so, there are a lot of Cynthia Thurlows and that's their maiden name. So, inevitably, at least once a month, I get a message asking, if I'm someone that's from Maine, and I'm like, "No, this is my married name. I'm nor that person. Nope, nope, nope."

Melanie Avalon: So, yes. Well, I think that is all the things. This has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

May 22

Episode 266: Introducing Cynthia!, Fasting In Middle Age, Diet Recommendations, Peri- And Post-Menopause, Accepting Success, The Wellness World, Being Realistic, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Intermittent Fasting: Transformational Technique | Cynthia Thurlow | TEDxGreenville

Welcome to Episode 266 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Leave a new review (or update an old one) on iTunes to get exclusive access to the lost epsiode: Epiosde 1!

about cynthia

Allopathic Medicine

having serious health challenges

when your TedTalk goes viral

creating a fasting program from scratch

confronting old wounds; doing the internal work for healing

accepting an award and appreciating your success

being in the wellness sphere

how Cynthia started fasting

having fasting variety

being realistic about habits

AVALONX: Order At avalonx.us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At melanieavalon.com/avalonx!

Cynthia's Podcast Everyday Wellness

how to fast for your cycle

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

progesterone and hunger

what type of diet approach does cynthia recommend?

the clean fast

Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Creating the book

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 266 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. And no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. Low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams, they are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more. Guess what? We worked out an exclusive deal for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast listeners only. Guys, this is huge. They weren't going to do a deal, I begged them, here we are.

You can get a free LMNT sampler pack. We're not talking a discount, we're talking free, completely free. You only pay $5 for shipping. If you don't love it, they will even refund you the $5 for shipping. I'm not kidding. The sample pack includes eight packets of LMNT, two Citrus, two Raspberry, two Orange, and two Raw Unflavored. The Raw Unflavored ones are the ones that are safe for your clean fast and the other ones you can have in your eating window. Word on the street is the Citrus flavor makes an amazing Margarita, by the way. I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will, too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IFPODCAST. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last four years

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so, you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list, that's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So definitely check it out. And you can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a band of Beauty member. It's like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 266 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am so, so excited and thrilled to be here with our new cohost, Cynthia Thurlow. Cynthia, welcome to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here.

Melanie Avalon: Listeners, you might be familiar with this change that happened. We talked about it on the episode last week with Gin. We sent some email announcements, talked about it on social media, but basically, the story leading up to this whole change and transition that we are very excited about, it's been an amazing five years having this show with Gin Stephens, who is a wonderful partner and we've just really had a beautiful time doing this show. But just due to her life's transitions, and what she's doing, and she has two other podcasts, and she's focusing on her personal social media community, Delay Don't Deny community that she has, we decided that it was time to part ways on this show. The backstory that happened and I knew I had to find the perfect cohost for the show. And honestly, the first thing I thought was that Cynthia Thurlow would be the perfect cohost for the show. I didn't know if it would actually manifest. I was hopeful, but I put it out there to the universe and I was so, so thrilled that Cynthia was even remotely open to the idea.

Our personal connection leading up to this, I've had Cynthia on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast twice. I've also been on her show, Everyday Wellness, which is absolutely incredible. And Cynthia herself is basically a legend in The Intermittent Fasting Community. I'm sure that many of you are probably very familiar with her. But actually, probably, just be asking Cynthia more to tell her story about all of this, but she has a TED talk that went viral about intermittent fasting called Intermittent Fasting Transformational Technique. If you look at it today, it has over 11 million views, which is crazy. And she recently released the fabulous book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation and for my second episode with her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, we dived deep into that. And she's been everywhere all over the news like ABC, and Fox, and Medium and Entrepreneur. On top of all of that, as if those credentials aren't enough, Cynthia and I are personally friends. We even before as being cohosts now, we're talking most days. She's a beautiful, kind, amazing, incredible human being. She's also a Nurse Practitioner. She really has the savvy of the science and the clinician knowledge when it comes to all of this. When I say that Cynthia is the perfect cohost for the show and I am just so excited. I really mean that. So, again, Cynthia, thank you so much for being here.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's ironic that I think back to when I first got an email from you in 2019 to interview me for your podcast, that was really the first opportunity we had, and we became fast friends, and certainly, it's just been a very organic friendship and conversation. I was telling my team earlier today that in so many ways, you inspire me to be a better interviewer, a better podcast host, to be curious about the world as I always have been, but to do it through a different lens, and so it's really exciting to have us both together to be able to tackle some of the topics that come up for our listeners and for people that follow us on social media, I was laughing and sharing with Melanie that I was already getting DMs with questions about things specifically, our listeners hope that we will discuss on this podcast. And so, that's really exciting. As many of you probably already know, there's a real natural ease to our discussions and so, my hope and my intent is to continue to provide really valuable conversations to my community, to your community, to this joint community, and to be able to honor the wonderful work that both you and Gin have done in the past, and offer a different perspective moving forward as a clinician, and as a human being, and certainly, as a fasting aficionado as well.

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, thank you for saying that. That is so, so kind. Yeah, I was just thinking about how, because you and I talk offline all the time. We often talk in voice messages via text. So many of our conversations could be podcast episodes just by themselves, because we're always just talking about health-related stuff and fasting. I just think there's so much content that we can dive into that actually answers a question I was going to address for the audience. The format of the show is going to be staying pretty similar to the way it has been, still listener questions, we're going to be answering them, but we will be bringing Cynthia's new perspective. It'll be really, really exciting to dive deep into all of that. Today's episode is actually going to be more of an interview style to introduce you guys to Cynthia. No listener questions today. They will be coming in all of the future episodes. And actually, I will go ahead and mention this now. We have an exciting announcement.

As you guys know, there is the mysterious missing Episode number 1 of this show, which is not available to the general public and we get questions about it all the time. Well, we now have it. It's not going to be public. It's not on the feed right now. But if you would like to get it, we came up with a fun, little incentive that we thought we would do to welcome Cynthia and also give you guys access to that episode. If you have written an iTunes review, go into iTunes and update it and/or if you haven't written one before, you can write a new review. All you have to do is review the podcast, but include in there somewhere, what you are excited about or what you're looking forward to with Cynthia being on board. Anything that in particular you're excited to experience with her, and send a screenshot of that review to questions at ifpodcast.com, and then we will send you a link, so that you can listen to the mysterious Episode number 1, which will also be a nice little thing to do in honor of Gin, as well. So, very excited about that. Okay. To start things off, Cynthia, for those who are not familiar with you, would you like to tell them a little bit about your personal story? So, what was your personal health journey, what led you to intermittent fasting, and why you are doing what you're doing today?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a great question. One that I think is really important because I would imagine that the span of the IF Podcast audience is probably 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond. We can speak about it from two different perspectives. The easiest way to explain it was that I fell into intermittent fasting, because I hit the wall of perimenopause. For anyone, who's unfamiliar with what that represents, it's the five to 10 years preceding menopause. It was in my early 40s, doing all the wrong things. I had a very demanding job. I, at the time worked for a really high-level cardiology practice in the Northern Virginia suburbs. I was seeing patients in clinic, in the hospital. I had two young boys. I had a husband, who did a lot of international travel, and I probably wasn't sleeping enough, and was doing the wrong types of exercise, and that represents doing things like CrossFit in the context of all those other variables, and so, I got stuck.

I woke up one morning, I was exhausted, and I stayed exhausted, it wasn't getting better no matter how much sleep I had. I was starting to feel like I was becoming increasingly sensitive to the foods I ate. For the first time in my adult life, I was weight loss resistant. It didn't matter what I did. I couldn't lose the weight that I'd packed on during this timeframe. A colleague had mentioned intermittent fasting to me and this was completely contrary to anything I had learned as a clinician. I used to tell my patients, "Eat to stoke your metabolism, and eat every two to three hours, and make sure you have snacks," and things that make me cringe at this point. I rather tentatively started fasting and felt so much better. Didn't lose weight automatically, let me be clear about that. But I felt so much more cognitively clear. I had so much more energy, I started sleeping better. Then I started weaving it into the work that I was doing with my own patients. I would talk about it, which of course, their expression when I talked about fasting was probably the same expression I had when it was brought up with me that it seemed completely contrary to what the antiquated dogma had been.

My journey really started with that. But as it pertains to how I got so well known in this space was that six years ago, about six years ago, now, I left clinical medicine. I've gotten to a point where I was really struggling with the volume of prescriptions I was writing that I felt very unaligned with the traditional allopathic model, although, let me be clear. If you're emergently or urgently sick, allopathic medicine is where it's out in terms of technology. We just don't do a great job with prevention and we certainly don't do a great job with chronic disease management. For me, I was so disaligned with how I had trained and so, I left clinical medicine without a business plan, which I would not recommend doing. Then leaped into the space and said, "I'm going to be successful." My husband thought I was insane. I did become successful pretty quickly, because I started attracting the same type of woman that I was. Middle-aged women, where there's not a lot of emphasis on care, physicians, and other Nurse Practitioners, other providers don't really know what to do with us in this stage of life. Sometimes, they offer things up like oral contraceptives to "control our menstrual cycles," they offer things like IUDs, and ablations, and hysterectomies, and then sometimes, they offer up hormones.

But the point of why I'm sharing this is that it really empowered me to want to be someone that would speak on behalf of all middle-aged women, because we were so poorly represented. And then quite frankly when I started really digging into management for women in middle age, it became even more glaringly obvious that we were so underrepresented. And so, being an introvert, I decided to do a TED talk. I thought this was really safe way to work through my introverted nature. I was offered one in probably October of 2018 and talked about the super sexy topic of perimenopause. Very relevant, I promise. And very soon after I was offered the opportunity to do a second one. It was very special to me because I was going to be delivering this talk in South Carolina. For many listeners, they may not know that's where I was born. My father was finishing his PhD at University of South Carolina. South Carolina has always held very special memories. I still have a lot of family there. And I kept saying, now, this is going to be great. I'm going to do this second talk in South Carolina. This will be wonderful. Family will be able to come.

But fast forward to a couple of weeks before then I actually got quite sick. I almost died. And part of my healing journey was convincing myself and my children that I was okay. And so, the intent that I set for that second talk that you alluded to at the very beginning of this introduction was really just to show my kids I was okay that I had gone from being a super healthy person to suddenly being critically sick. I did that talk with a ruptured appendix and really the rest is history. Because when that talk came out in May of 2019, it changed everything. I didn't realize that I would be standing on a platform, not only for women, but also as an expert in intermittent fasting. So, I very humbly share that story, because all of those pieces all now make sense, although at the time they did not.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get two free weeks of Prep Dish, a meal planning service where you can get delicious, healthy meals that can be paleo, low carb, or keto and that are all gluten free on the table when you have limited time. One of the reasons that Cynthia and I love intermittent fasting is that it saves you so much time, because time is precious. We are also super concerned with meal quality that is made from Whole Foods, free of gluten and truly supportive of your health. We also love paleo diets as well as keto diets. Making those meals every night can be a little bit time consuming and overwhelming, especially if you have kids and a family. That's where Prep Dish comes in. Here's how it works. With Prep Dish every week, you receive an organized grocery list and instructions for prepping meals ahead of time. One day a week, you can go to the store, you do all of your shopping, get everything done at once, then at your convenience, you have a prep day, and that's where you do the majority of prepping for the entire week all at once. That means come dinnertime every day, everything is super quick and easy.

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Melanie Avalon: I forgot that your experience of the hospital and everything that happened prior to that talk, it's interesting because it's something we've talked about before, because I had my own experience in the hospital with my severe anemia, and being admitted, and all of that. It's an experience unless you've had that where you could in theory technically die, and you're in the hospital, it provides such a layer of empathy to other people, who are going through health challenges on whatever spectrum that may be of severity. Not that I love that you went through that or that I went through that, but I think it's really nice that we both have gone through that and we can empathize with people, who have struggled with health conditions to a really intense effect.

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree. I think my mindset is always through adversity comes opportunity. For many people, no one would have questioned if I hadn't done that talk, no one would have ever questioned it. But to me, so much of it was proving to my children that I was okay. I think for anyone who's listening, we've all had instances in our lives, where are you showing up? For me, that's a large part of who I am as an individual. And although, I didn't realize it at the time how critically important that was on so many levels, because I think there's this forgotten misnomer that individuals don't realize that when we have those circumstances, when we have those instances where we have opportunities that come up after going through an illness, after going through a struggle and it doesn't have to be something health related, it allows us to show up differently. And so, I say all the time that those little micro decisions that made no sense to me at the time now are so abundantly clear to me why they happened as they did. I sit in complete gratitude. I say to everyone, I think as a clinician, how many thousands and thousands of patients I took care of over 20 years. Until I got sick, I really didn't appreciate and understand how powerless you are when you're lying in a bed and you're that sick.

I remember, there were very specific nurses, I had great nursing care and I had terrible nursing care. It's not just about nurses. As a nurse, I can say, there were certain nurses, I would pray when they came on board, because I could relax. Because as sick as I was, I was aware of how sick I was. I had such great physician care and I was really fortunate, because not everyone has that. But I was so, so grateful and I remember really coming from a place of gratitude and deciding that from that day forward that I would in some way practice gratitude, because it is a practice every single day for the rest of my life, and that I would ensure that if I was given this opportunity, and it was a choice. If I was given this opportunity to live, I was not going to play small. I was not going to be fearful, or timid, or tentative. Because as an introvert, I sometimes can-- The before me, I might not have jumped at that chance, whereas the new me is always "everything is either a heck no or hell yes and there's no in between." That's how my life exists. Just like when you ask me, if I might be interested in being your cohost, it was a heck yes. There was no hesitation. So, that's the world that I now exist in. It's what I would encourage anyone who's listening to consider how are you living your life, how are you showing up, how are you practicing gratitude?

Melanie Avalon: I am so happy to hear you say this, because the gratitude piece is just so important to me as well. I think it's so powerful and I'm really excited that we can integrate this whole roll of mindset into our conversations. Oh, this is wonderful. I remember when I had my hospital experience, I as well like the whole nurse thing, some that are not so pleasant and some that were amazing. When I did have the great ones like you, I was just so grateful. I just felt, I was just like, "How do I thank this person for being here with me during this time of darkness?" So, yay for gratitude. I have a question about the TED talk. Did it go viral right away or did that happen later?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. And it's interesting, I knew that it was going to come out in May. Actually, I was standing in line, my kids were getting measured for swimsuits, and yes, you get measured for swimsuits, because they were competitive swimmers at the time. A colleague texted me and she said, "I think this is going to be different." I was like, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "Your talk is out and it's got a lot of views." The first day, I had 89,000 views and that was a little overwhelming, because I had just gotten through telling my children that we were going to have a laid-back low-key summer. And then we had a million within a week and then it just kept rolling forward. And so, yeah, it happened pretty quickly. I think I was still processing what was happening. And then my team wasn't prepared for that to happen. My website crashed and people were finding backdoors into the website, which is a whole separate topic.

Melanie Avalon: What do you mean finding backdoors?

Cynthia Thurlow: I guess, if your web so-- I don't have the same website person now. But if your website isn't fully secure and I wouldn't know because this is not my area of expertise, but they were finding backdoors into programs, they were finding backdoors into stuff that I obviously was not properly secured. And then there was all this attention on me, like, people came to me and they're like, "I want you to teach me how to fast." I was like, "What?" [laughs] So, I didn't have a formal program. But the irony is, so from that viral TED Talk in May of 2019, within two weeks I created a program which was the foreshadowing to IF-45. When I tell people that the book that I completed last year, which was just published in March that it was easier to write than I had anticipated, because I had this existing program that became the backbone of the book with a lot of fleshing out. So, this is where all the lines make all the little dots that got me to where I am. It started making sense that that was the universe's way of creating this opportunity. Like, are you going to step up and take full advantage? That's a terrible way to explain. Are you going to take full ownership of this opportunity that awaits you? Give people what they're asking for. People are coming to you. They want to learn how to fast.

And obviously, the complete irony is that the organizers of that second TEDx, so, the TEDx Greenville organizers asked me to do a gender slanted talk. They were women all the time, feel they're underrepresented. We really want you to do a talk just about women. Before then I worked with men and women. And then all of a sudden, I was evidently only going to talk about women and fasting. The things that make us unique and why we need to fast differently. It's another opportunity where the universe gave me another blessing, where I was able to continue to fine tune what I was doing. Not realizing that in December of 2018 when I accepted that talk that I would then be doing all the amazing things I've been doing the last several years. I always sit in complete gratitude. And truly when I say that it's not just for lip service. I really practice it every day being true to who I am, but also, acknowledging that these are blessings, these are amazing opportunities that came out of a talk that I did to demonstrate to my kids that I was okay like setting that pure intention.

I never did a talk for any other reason other than challenging myself and wanting to show my kids I was okay. The irony is, last year, I accepted an award and I cried through my entire acceptance speech. And anyone that knows me knows I'm not a particularly emotional person, but it was my brain finally processing. The trauma of being hospitalized for 13 days and what came out of that which-- If anyone's ever gone through a traumatic experience in their lifetime, it's like opening up a can of worms. Like all the stuff you thought you were dealing with, it's like, "Oh, no. The universe is going to throw you a wrench." And now, you got to work through all of it. It gave me an opportunity to deal with stuff that I hadn't dealt with before. I'm a huge advocate of doing internal work all the time. I have a Reiki provider I work with, I've got an energy person, I have a therapist, and I think it's been important for my trajectory of my lifetime to ensure that I'm consistently working on my stuff. All of us have stuff. I'm just using it in air quotes. All of us have stuff, but working on the stuff so that I'm a better mother, I'm a better wife, I'm a better human being, I can give more to people by being honest about how I'm showing up, and how authentic I'm being, and how transparent I'm being, and how honest I'm being. So, I look at that as one enormous exercise in evolving as a human being and as an individual.

Melanie Avalon: I love hearing you say that about working on yourself, and the therapists, and all of that stuff, and hearing you cry during the acceptance speech, and then how it related to your hospital experience. It's interestingly, I didn't realize the extent to which my hospital trauma had affected me, but then when I started working with my therapist on it, whenever it would come up in a therapy session, the subject of actually just even doctors or any of that I would just start bawling. I think it's so fascinating how we can hold trauma deep inside of us and not realize in our day-to-day life what it's doing until something opens it up and so, your experience when you were accepting that award. Which award was that, by the way?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm part of a Mindshare Mastermind community. It was an award. It was Health Influencer of the year. But part of what made it so significant was, sometimes, I don't think I'm necessarily cognizant of what other people's perceptions are of how we define success. Joining that mastermind for me came at exactly the right time. It forced me to level up and stop being scared, or tentative, or fearful about embracing what had transpired in 2019. I'm very coachable. I tell everyone that like I'm very coachable. When I got direction, I took it. It meant a lot to me because it meant out of thousands of people that are in this big community, I'm the person that they felt best represented or help people define like, "Who in this space is really doing amazing things?" I kept saying very humbly, "You have to understand, I just did that talk to show my kids I was okay." And from that came all of this incredible success professionally and personally. There have been so many things that have come from that that have allowed my family to do things we wouldn't have otherwise been able to do.

I was raised with the mindset of-- I have specific family members that have been incredibly and this is really taking off on a tangent. So, my apologies. I have family members, who've been very, very successful and I'd always been conditioned to believe that as a nurse and a Nurse Practitioner that I was just going to make a decent amount of money and all these things put in motion that I was going to be able to do a lot of different things. It goes back to that gratitude piece of just saying, I acknowledge that decisions I made, and things that were put into motion, and things that happened including winning that award very humbly were just things that came along the way from a lot of hard work and effort. I think sometimes people forget. I don't know if you recall that. There's a graphic out there that talks about people's perception of success. They just see the top of the iceberg and yet underneath there's all this other work. People will say, "Oh, you're so fortunate." I'm like, "Yeah, but I've actually been working hard for a while. This didn't just happen. But I'm really humbly grateful that all these things have occurred." Yes, I think for both of us we definitely have been through some health challenges that provide a lens and a perspective that we're able to see people differently and that is such a gift, because there are a lot of people that go through life who don't ever see that. They don't ever see adversity or they haven't experienced it. So, it colors their lens with which they view the world.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Two thoughts about that. One is that I'm really grateful and it's really thrilling that we are alive at the time that we're alive right now, because we are able to do this thing that we're doing in the health sphere that wasn't a thing. Even five, not maybe five years ago, even 10 years ago, which is this whole social media influencer sphere with health, and spreading education, and awareness. We're really able to create our worlds in that which I just think is so cool. Because with my background, with acting in the entertainment industry, and always wanting to do something related to that, it's a really cool hybrid that has manifested and I just really love it. The second piece was that I did it so because I've been hit with so many diagnoses, hypothyroidism, anemia, heavy metal toxicity, mold toxicity, even Lyme disease, or digestive issues, SIBO. For the longest time, I was like, "Someday, I'll be grateful for this, but not really [giggles] like maybe." But now, I think I can honestly say I am because I wouldn't be doing all of this if that hadn't happened. With each diagnosis that came it really put me on a fervent tangent research craziness to try to find what was going on and how to address it, which has just led to a cumulative ocean of knowledge. Not to say that I know everything, but I think it's all worked for purpose like you were saying. Question about fasting. So, when you first started fasting, how did you do it? What type of window?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. To be honest with you, I think I started with a 14:10, because in my mind, I was like, "I'm going to die if I'm not eating more regularly." I think many people face these concerns and then I think fairly quickly within a week, I was probably doing a 16:8 and I felt really good. The nice thing was that the way my work schedule was, I had an augmented-- I'd a very part time augmented schedule. They just kept accommodating what other crazy schedule I asked for as a Nurse Practitioner and so I was able to accommodate said crazy schedule, because I could eat when I needed to. Oftentimes, I would break my fast in the morning in between seeing patients and then I pick my kids up from school at 2:30, so then I would then eat another meal. And then sit down with my kids when they had dinner. Initially, probably, a 14:10 and then progressed to a 16:8. But back then I didn't know that variety was a good thing to do. I probably steadily kept at that pace for, gosh, probably six months. And then as I started doing more research and learning more then I got more creative and by then, I think my husband had started fasting as well and he just effortlessly, like, he stays up later and likes to fast till a later point during the day. And so, it was fascinating to see how he was fasting.

And then I would work with my women and see, because at that point, I also had this private business. I was taking on clients and on days, I wasn't working in the clinic or the hospital. I was working with these other people. It was really interesting and fascinating to me to see all the variables that are at play with women in particular, whereas my husband could do the same fasting schedule every day effortlessly with no problems. I couldn't do that. I very early on recognized there were times in my menstrual cycle when I could fast easier than others, but I didn't really understand why, and so that probably got me down a rabbit hole of figuring out what was contributing to that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm so, so glad to hear you talk all about that. That will be a little bit of a change or not a change, a different perspective that I think you'll bring to the show because both Gin and I, we are like your husband. [giggles] Gin maybe breaks it a little bit more than I do. We both do the one meal a day, all day, every day. We both have later windows. Mine is really late. Gin's is more normal, socially late with dinner. It'll be really interesting to hear your perspective on the different windows and such. So, I'm curious. When you're working with women, how many people are like me and Gin, where they do just stick to the same thing every day compared to more fluctuating windows, or adjusting for their cycle or longer windows, what have you seen?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, I can tell you the most people if they're working with me were, we have variety, because I think that's just fundamentally, I feel that's important to embrace what's going on in our cycles while we're still getting cycles and just having variety. I remind my patients, "We don't eat the same foods every day, we don't do the same types of exercise every day, we should fast differently most days." Because I think our bodies are really primed or if we want to think about it that way for variety and adaptability. Now, everyone's an individual. You'll oftentimes hear me say the term bio-individuality, but it's really leaning into what makes you feel good. And for me I don't feel good and my Oura Ring barks at me if I eat late. As an example, we were talking before we started recording and we were laughing about Oura Rings. I said, "My Oura Ring wants me in bed at 8:30," which is a joke, because I'm never in bed at 8:30. But I endeavor to be in bed by 9:30. And Melanie was joking and saying, "Her Oura tells her to go to bed at 2 AM."

Melanie Avalon: That's a true statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. It just goes to show you, I'm an early bird, you're a night owl, or if we want to embrace the terminology of Dr. Michael Breus, we might know the dolphin and I'm a lion, but I'm completely aligned with that. But to me, I guess, because I'm looking at this as a middle-aged woman, the things that I see with OMAD that concern me for middle-aged women is, can you get your protein intake in? That's always the basis of the conversation of, these are the macros that I want you to aim for and that usually gets the conversation going. Because when I was in my 20s and 30s, my macros were different, my sleeping was different, it was effortless, and that's something I didn't appreciate enough until I got to be where I am. Now, it's like an art form in order to make sure I sleep through the night. But in all sincerity from my perspective based on insulin sensitivity and looking at research on where we are in our menstrual cycles, those variations of fasting in terms of windows and macro breakdown can be very important. But I think first and foremost, it always goes back to honoring yourself as an individual. I can make recommendations, but I really try to teach women to experiment to find what works best for them.

But then also look at the science and say, "Okay, well, the science says X, but that doesn't work for me and I have to find something that's sustainable." I always say like, "I'm a complete realist." I can say we used to call it ivory tower back in the day because I went to this big academic research center. There were ivory tower nursing and then there was reality. I think of it very much the same way. We can look at the research and make recommendations, but we'll have to be realists. If you come to my house, Melanie, if you came to my house, I have two teenage boys. We have some junk food in my house, but it is the healthiest "junk food" that is out there because of some parameters that I set for my husband. When we go grocery shopping, however, I'm a realist. When it comes down to, we'll have to live our lives. If I make a recommendation and someone says, "I cannot do that," that does not work for me. That's okay. It goes back to the bio-individuality.

Does this work for you? Is it something that's sustainable? Because that's something that I think is unique is that if something is not sustainable for you, you're not going to be successful with it. It's the recognition of what are your hell yeses and hell noes, and I have some and I know you have some as well. But my hell noes, I can't commit myself to doing because I cannot sustain that. We want to make sure or at least my endeavor is to make sure recommendations I make are something that can be potentially sustainable for someone as opposed to a quick fix. I'm not a big quick fix person. I will never be the person that's going to recommend, do this five-day cleanse and lose 30 pounds, like, that's not sustainable and that's crazy.

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What is serrapeptase? It's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. When you take it in the fasted state, it actually breaks down problematic proteins in your body. So, it can really help anything where your body is reacting to problematic proteins. That's why it can radically help with allergies, it clears my sinuses like none other, and it can clear brain fog, studies have shown it may help reduce inflammation, enhance wound healing, help with pain, even reduce cholesterol, and break down amyloid plaque. Basically, it's the coolest supplement ever and it is an awesome way to really amplify your fast. I take it every single day. We also recently launched subscriptions so that you can get a big discount on my supplements, as well as help, support, sustainability by reducing emissions from shipping. And my next supplement is coming soon. That is magnesium. Get excited. If you want to get the latest information, specials, news about new supplements, and stay up to date on everything, AvalonX. Definitely get on my email list. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. When you join that list, check for the welcome email to make sure it doesn't go to spam. And you can shop, of course, at avalonx.us. Again, that is avalonx.us. AVALONX dot US, avalonx.us. And I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: I bet listeners can now see even more why I'm so excited about having you on the show. You just referenced all the things. I'm super excited about one, the importance of bio-individuality and finding what works for you. I cannot express enough how important I think that is, and just being open to new ideas, and really looking at the science, and knowing what you think is probably accurate, but also being open to different ideas and different things working. And then, yes, Cynthia does the things I do with the Oura Ring and I'll do another plug for your show, Everyday Wellness. A lot of the guests, because Cynthia mentioned Dr. Michael Breus, who wrote The Power of When. A lot of the guests that I've had on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, Cynthia has had on her show as well. That's another show for you guys to check out if there are certain guests that you really like and like to hear more content. That's amazing. And also, this is probably giving listeners ideas of questions to ask. If you do have questions about fasting, and the menstrual cycle, and hormones, and all of that, definitely start sending them, because we will really be able to talk about them. Listeners are probably dying to know, because I'm sure we have so many episodes together coming up or I'm sure we'll talk about this. But just briefly, how are you encouraging women to adjust fasting for their cycles?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. If a woman has a regular cycle, so, I'll just say, if you have the textbook, 28-day cycle, day one is when you start bleeding and up until day 14, that's the follicular phase when estrogen predominates and I always say, estrogen is our superpower. We are more insulin sensitive, we can go keto or low carb, we can push our workouts, we can also do all the things with fasting, longer fasts, 24-hour fasts, shorter fasts, whatever kind of fasts you want to do, you can get away with it. Then we ovulate, then we have the luteal phase when progesterone predominates. Progesterone is a hormone that is designed to be more a little more mellow, a little more laid back. You might not have as much energy. You become increasingly less insulin sensitive, which is really important, because we know most Americans are not insulin sensitive. About 90% of the population based on a study from 2018, which was pre-pandemic. You start to think about, what changes do I need to make. I always say that the closer you get to your menstrual cycle, this is usually when I will ask women to think about shorter fasting like 12 hours of digestive rest, which is still a great-- You're still doing great things for your body, 12 hours, 13 hours.

And perhaps, leaning into the fact that your body might need a little bit more in terms of quantity of carbohydrate to help with progesterone production. When I think about this, it could be as simple as hundred more, I don't count calories and I want to be clear about that. I'm a macros counter. If you want to count macros, great. But it could be that you have half a cup of sweet potato or maybe you're having a third of a cup of squash. Let me just also stick this little caveat in. I do with middle-aged women. Middle-aged women as they are getting closer to perimenopause, the five to 10 years preceding menopause, you become less insulin sensitive for a variety of reasons. One of them is that you're losing progesterone because your ovaries aren't producing as much and you are becoming increasingly more estrogen dominant. You're having a lot of symptoms. But a lot of times when I'm talking about recommendations, it's really for most of the women that I'm talking to. However, this can apply to younger women. You're going to want a little more discretionary healthy carbohydrate. And by that, I mean, don't go after like the bread and the pasta. Get some real whole food sources. Maybe for a younger woman, you can go with a couple of berries, maybe for a middle-aged woman, it's half a cup of berries, but experiment to see what works well for you.

But understanding that as we are getting five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle, we're going to back off the gas of fasting. Maybe we're just doing 12 or 13 hours of digestive rest, because we're having fluctuating amounts of progesterone. This is when women sometimes have sleep disturbances, this can be when women have more cravings. I find if we're really attuned to the changes physiologically that are happening in our bodies, then all of a sudden, the beautiful thing happens where we have less cravings, you're not struggling to get to 15 hours. I get DMs from women almost every day about this and I just always say, "If you're close to your menstrual cycle, don't fast for long times. And then when you start bleeding, you're heading back into your super power phase. And so, you can really push the envelope." That's a general methodology. Now, if you're a perimenopausal woman with really irregular cycles, if you're someone, who has PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome and has really irregular cycles, this is when I think testing can be helpful and we can obviously go into this in more depth in the future.

More often than not, PCOSers are insulin resistant and they have a luteal phase defect. Meaning, their bodies aren't producing adequate amounts of progesterone, so it can prolong this anovulatory or cycle without ovulation. That's why these women can have cycles of 40 days, and they never ovulate, or even perimenopause when women are either on oral contraceptives, or IUDs, or maybe they've had a hysterectomy, but have their ovaries or they've had an ablation. They've no idea where they are in their cycle. There're definitely ways that you can hack that or maybe not hack, but you can work around how best to strategize with fasting. And so, lots of different ways we can look at that. But I always say, menopause is when women don't have to worry about those variables as much, but they do have other things they have to consider. So, a lot to unpack and definitely, I want the listeners to be sending questions, so that we can help honor wherever they are in their cycling or non-cycling journey.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm really excited to see all the questions that I'm sure will come flooding in. Whenever I hear PCOS now, I always think of somebody we found on both of our shows Dr. Benjamin Bikman and everything that he talks about with the role of insulin and PCOS. So, I definitely recommend listeners check out those interviews if they're interested more in that.

Cynthia Thurlow: I bow at his temple. I think he's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: He's so amazing. He's so nice, too.

Cynthia Thurlow: I heard he's writing a new book.

Melanie Avalon: Really?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Do you know what it's about?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't know. He keeps alluding to it like, "What do you think I'm writing a new book about?" I'm like, "Ben, about insulin." "But what about insulin? That's always my response." I'm like, "I'll have to like pay more attention to what he's showing on IG Stories and what he's showing in his IG Feed, because I think he's probably giving us hints."

Melanie Avalon: Ooh. Oh, okay. He's going to have to come back on our shows [chuckles] for that one. Speaking about diet, actually, before that really quick question. Is progesterone, it's the reason we get really hungry right? Doesn't it boost metabolism?

Cynthia Thurlow: It can. The mindset methodologies, even if you don't want to get pregnant, your body is preparing itself for the potential pregnancy. And so, yes, it's going to increase and it falls along with that insulin. Lack of less insulin sensitivity, your body is looking for a food source. It is looking for a growth mindset. It is a time period in our bodies where the potential and I always put air quotes, "potential" for an ovum, and fertilization, all those things. It's really getting your body fine-tuned to prepare for the potentiality of that happening, even if it's not what you want to have happen. But yeah, I think it nicely correlates with the cravings that drive more caloric consumption. It's interesting because a lot of women will say, "That's the only time in my cycle I'll crave salts or that's the only time in my cycle I crave sugar." I think it's our body's way of trying to ensure those additional macros or calories, however you want to think about it. It's your body's biologic drive to prepare for the potentiality of growing a human.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, very, very fascinating. A question about, because you mentioned the dietary choices, the protein, counting macros, what in general, and again, we'll dive deep into this in future episodes. But in general, what type of macronutrient approaches are you recommending for women? Do you find women can find success on different macros? And also, because I imagine, I don't know what percent exactly of our audience, but there is a portion of our audience that does fasting and they don't really want to make any changes to their dietary choices. So, what do you find with that? Can you find women can be successful without changing what they're eating as well?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, actually, I have a college sorority sister who said to me, "I did nothing else other than eliminate breakfast." She wasn't eating the healthiest diet, admittedly and she lost 10 pounds right off the bat, and so, she was thrilled. It was later that she then became more vested and interested in changing her diet. Can people lose weight just with fasting? Absolutely. But I find for most women, especially, someone who's experiencing weight loss resistance, there's a reason for why that's happening. That the common errors that I see being made with macros are as follows. One, not enough animal-based protein. Number two, too much of the wrong type of fat. And the most consumed fat in United States right now, a la Bikman, is soybean oil. Number three is the wrong types of carbohydrates. I'm not anti-carb, but I do find for most women they have to flip all that. More protein, which is going to help us satiety, which is going to help with muscle protein synthesis. I know you're going to be interviewing Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who I think is absolutely brilliant and she talks a lot about muscle protein synthesis and why you need to be hitting your protein macros. Changing up those fats, I'm not anti-fat either, and then changing up your carbs.

The methodology in my mindset, when I'm teaching someone about intermittent fasting is talking about the macros. More protein with your meals, it could be maybe you're eating 25 grams of protein with your meals, but really you need to be hitting 50. You're slowly working up and really thinking thoughtfully about the types of fats. I do better with plant-based fats like olives, coconut oil, etc. I don't do as well with animal-based fats, lard, duck fat, etc. Some people do, I just don't. I also gravitate towards leaner meat. I do better with that. So really, this is where the bio-individuality piece is really interesting. And then carbs, I eat carbs, but I cycle my carbs. I think it really goes back to what is sustainable. You said there are probably listeners that they can fast, but they don't want to change their diet. What is sustainable? Maybe it's just fasting and that's okay. If you want to take it up a notch, it's changing your macros. If you are a middle-aged woman and you are dealing with sarcopenia, which is not a question of if but when, meaning muscle loss with aging it will happen if you are not consuming enough animal-based protein, you're not strength training and you're not sleeping well. And for a lot of women, they struggle with all of those that can be a real possibility.

I think it really goes back to what is sustainable. Because you and I can talk about the intricacies of different macros with different nutritional paradigms. But if someone's listening saying, "Hey, I can't do that and sustain it," then you stay with just do the fasting piece. And then if you want to add another layer, then maybe you tweak your macros. And then if you really are super, like, I always say if you're the Type A class, you want to be the teacher's pet. that next level is taking it up a notch, and getting really nuanced about ingredients, and where things are sourced from. But I remind people all the time, we have to meet them where they are. The way that people can successfully fast and change their lifestyle is based on meeting them where they are. I got shamed the other day, which drives my team crazy, because I had done a post about quick protein that people could take with them or quick to put together. Someone said, "I cannot believe that you are recommending a protein powder." I said, "Well, I'm all about meeting people where they are and do I use protein powder? Yeah, not every day. But I do on occasion."

I think it goes back to the same thing, like, my intent is things that we talk about. I want things to be sustainable and I want people to feel they're getting those wins, and that they feel good about themselves, and that they're not feeling shamed. That's one of the things about social media, that's good/bad is that if we compare ourselves to everyone else, we're not going to feel good about ourselves. We have to just like, "What's working for me, what can I sustainably do, what makes me feel good, what makes me sleep well?" That's the stuff you lean into. Not the stuff that when you compare yourself to the FitPro, who's photoshopped on every social media platform that is not sustainable or realistic for anyone. If that's what you're using as your-- that's who you're comparing yourself to. You're setting yourself up for disappointment because that person doesn't even exist.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so happy to hear you talk about the protein stuff, because that is just so, so important to me. I think it's so important and I think, especially, women who struggle with not feeling full or-- yeah, or hunger cravings, really focusing on protein can be pretty magical for that. I know we've both interviewed a lot of people, who talk about that as well. I'm really excited to interview Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. Thank you, by the way, Cynthia introduced me to her. Robb Wolf talks about it a lot, who I absolutely love. So, teaser. I think because we just had a question come in recently about recommended protein powders or our thoughts on protein powders. We'll have to maybe answer that next week and we can hear more about that. Here's a big question for you. I bet people are dying to know. What are your thoughts on the clean fast?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am very aligned with clean fasting. The reason why is I want people to get their best results. The best results mean you don't cheat. If you are coming from a Standard American Diet and you are completely sedentary, you may need to have a dirty fast for a period of time until your body is able to go a little longer without food. If I'm asking someone to go from three meals a day, snacks and mini-meals, and a highly processed hyperpalatable foods, that is going to be a big shift for them. The methodology about how we go about doing this, but it's a slow Band-Aid tear off. We're not going cold turkey. Remember what I said. We want this to be sustainable. It starts with no snacking, and then we move on to restructuring your meals, and then we go from dinner to breakfast, and then maybe this person is going to add a little bit of MCT oil to their coffee or they're going to add in a little bit of cream, because they're really struggling. Their body is not metabolically flexible. And metabolic inflexibility does not happen overnight and it's not going to be fixed overnight. That's, unfortunately, the conditioning with the toxic diet culture here in the United States that people assume that they're going to be able to remedy what other health issue they're having. I have to remind people it probably took you 10 years to get here. It's not going to change overnight. But we are going to make small incremental changes that are going to make it easier for you to get to your goals.

When I talk about clean fasting, I always say for certain people that is a goal. For some people, they're like a duck to water and it's not a big deal for them to be able to drink bitter teas, and drink unflavored electrolytes, and etc. But for a lot of other people, it's meeting them than where they are. But it's always with the understanding. You're not going to have a stick of butter in your coffee every day for the rest of your life. Really being very clear and intentional about what are your goals, what's realistic for you? No shaming, because I think Dave Asprey does a really good job of talking about how he was a metabolic inflexibility disaster and that Bulletproof coffee, well back then, it wasn't called that, but fatty coffees were what allowed him to get to a point where he could consider fasting, like, truly fasting. I think they have their place. But dirty fasting is not the methodology that I really come from. I do think clean fasting is the best way to get the results. It's also when people realize and there are FitPros out there, God bless them. They talk about, "Oh, if it's under 50 calories, that doesn't count on." Its food. It technically counts and that stuff can add up. If you're someone that has tried fasting and you feel you're not getting the results you want, it could be because you're unknowingly consuming these types of things. This is impacting insulin sensitivity and you're not clean fasting, you're not becoming fat adapted.

To answer your question, again, yes, I'm a proponent of clean fasting. But it's always in the context of like, "What are your goals?" Because some people will fat fast like a champ or they want to do bone broth fast I'm like, "Okay, well, that's a different type of fasting, and it's a different goal, and looking at what people want to do." But clean fasting is the way if you want to do it in a way that I believe is sustainable, and also is going to get you the best results. It's really with that understanding. I always say if you're weight loss resistant, and you're really struggling, and you want to get back to change body composition, or you want to get back to a healthier weight, then you have to toss out the extra. It's just like condiments. If you're putting five tablespoons of salad dressing on your salad and you're wondering why you're weight loss resistant. It's like let's look at our condiments. It could be that little. That kind of data and information can be the missing link for why you are struggling. So, it definitely gives the listeners a sense of that we're definitely aligned on this. But it's always in the context of, who are you, how metabolically flexible are you, what are your goals? I think all of that's super important.

Melanie Avalon: I love hearing this as well, because I love the clean fast, obviously. I think we've had very consistent messaging on this show about the importance of the clean fast, which is basically, water, black coffee, tea, unsweetened. I think I've been consistent about this when I have been asked this or addressed it. It's because my own experience of starting fasting, I did not jump in to the clean fast automatically. I was doing at the time artificial sweeteners like commercial artificial sweeteners. Not like stevia or something like that. I think I was probably doing a little bit of cream in my tea or coffee and that worked for me. It worked as a transition. And yes, ultimately, I did come to the "clean fast," but I know for me, it actually worked fine transitioning that way. I know we've always been a proponent of just jumping in and committing in to the clean fast. I do think for a lot of people that actually will make it easier even if they think it won't. But I also think it's okay for people to go on the path that they need to go to. So, sounds like we're very much aligned in that aspect. Really quick thing about Dave. So, I've had Dave on my show. Cynthia has been on Bulletproof Radio, which is super cool. And has Dave been on your show as well?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. His last book, which is Fast This Way. It's like having a little mental moment. I was like Fast This Way. Yes.

Melanie Avalon: It's just a little fun fact. Did you know he just released a new coffee line?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do because I think he had disassociated with Bulletproof.

Melanie Avalon: I just learned about this because we actually have a mutual friend and he was saying that-- I think he's still a shareholder in Bulletproof coffee, but they wouldn't let him have the coffee in his coffee shops. [giggles] So, he had to make his own. Just a little fun fact. In any case, we are coming up on time. I'm sure that listeners are just so excited about sending questions and the future of this show. Maybe a good question to end with, because you did just recently release Intermittent Fasting Transformation, which friends go get this book right now. It is such a valuable resource. It is all of Cynthia's thoughts on all of these things that we've touched on. But in great detail, it is specifically speaking to women, which is amazing. It's a deep, deep dive into all the hormones, which you guys know, I love the deep dive into the science of things. Maybe two little quick questions to end with about the book. What was the most challenging thing writing the book and also, what were you most excited to share in creating this book?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, great question. Actually, I've never been asked that question. The book proposal. Now, unless you've ever written a book proposal, you have no idea how difficult it is.

Melanie Avalon: I remember when you were writing it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, it was painful. I didn't get a lot of guidance initially by my lit agent, who's wonderful.

Melanie Avalon: We've the same agent, yeah.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And so, I didn't get a lot of guidance. That was issue number one. Once I got set guidance, I've realized how far off base I was. That was the hardest part by far. It was much easier to write the book, which does a lot. In terms of what I was so excited about was probably, this book was written with the intent. Remember, we started talking about intention. Written with the intent of this is the book I wish I had when I was younger and that was the sole intent that I really wanted women to feel heard, and understood, and by sharing my embarrassing perimenopausal journey that women would align with that and understand. This is not a book just written for middle-aged women. It's written really with the intent to be helpful to all women, women in 20s, and 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond.

I think what got me excited was the realization that all of what had been percolating in my brain for the last six years was coming to fruition and knowing that the intention had been set that I wanted this book to make an impact. Women would feel really loved and would feel they were in literally, I was there with them. Because I'm such a heart centered person, which I know Melanie knows this, but the listeners may not yet know this that the reason why I became a nurse, and the reason why I became a Nurse Practitioner, and the reason why I left clinical medicine and became an entrepreneur was because I wanted to make an impact. I wanted to connect with people, I wanted people to feel heard and valued, and there was such an enormous void in this space. So, there weren't any nurses that were writing books like this. I felt like it was an opportunity to really fill a void that was really needed. It comes from that heart directed place of wanting to help women, navigate the stages in their lives in a way where they felt hopeful, as opposed to scared, because that's the unfortunate thing, Melanie is that I feel a lot of women fear getting older for a variety of reasons.

But what I hear from women most often is that women are fearful of not having a sense of what's happening to their bodies as they get older. When I say older, you could be like 35. When I say older, the things I didn't know were happening behind the scenes in my body, because I had two little people that required all my attention. I think there's really not enough for women that allows them to feel empowered about these life stages in a way that's accessible information, because you can go read a textbook or you can read a book that is written by a clinician, who's trying to prove to you how smart they are. I wanted it to be accessible and I'm sure this is becoming a convoluted explanation, but there were a lot of things that were on my mind when I was writing it, but the intent was to make women feel heard, and to make sure people understood that I cared, and I wanted them to feel empowered, and not to be scared.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that is definitely the feeling that I had reading your book. So, goal accomplished. For listeners, we'll put a link to the book in the show notes, so that you can get it, and Cynthia does record the audiobook for it. It is on Audible. They're one of the sponsors for our show. That's really exciting. And again, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode266 and the show notes will have a full transcript, and links to everything that we talked about. Definitely check that out. And again, just a reminder. If you would like to get the mysterious missing Episode number 1 of this show, those many, many years ago, and also help welcome Cynthia to the show, just go to iTunes, find your old iTunes review, and update it, or write a new iTunes review, and include somewhere in that review. It can be however short or long you like, but just include somewhere in there what you're excited about having Cynthia onboard as the new cohost of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. So, oh, my goodness, it's just such a good moment. I'm so happy. We're like ooh, first one in the books. [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and I think for me, because I interview people on my podcast. It's so different to be just talking. it's refreshing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's fun.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's refreshing. I have to be honest. I have two podcasts on Monday and I'm knee deep in prep work, but it's nice to be in a position, where I'm talking to a trusted friend, talking about topics that we both love and embrace, and hoping that our conversation inspires others to do great things. There're so many layers to what I want to communicate.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad to hear you say that. That's actually something that Gin and I would reflect on a lot when we were doing the show, which is, because we have so many other things going on like you do as well. The fun, amazing thing about this show is, all of that just fades away and we get to just come here, and talk, and it's just like a conversation with friends. But we have a wonderful, amazing community listening with us. Yeah, so, I think it's going to be really fun. I'm excited. [laughs] All right, well, again, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode266. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon. Your handle is Cynthia Thurlow, right? Just your name?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, but I'm realizing, when I changed everything over from my old business name to just my name, it was never so easy. So, it's @cynthia_thurlow_ just to make things more complicated.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I got it. @cynthia_thurlow_. Just look for the verified [laughs] profile. Yeah. All right. Well, I think that's everything. This has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

May 15

Episode 265: All About Supplements With Scott Emmens, The Supplement Industry, Purity, Potency, Testing, Toxins, Authenticity, Organics, Common Additives, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Melatonin Natural Health Products and Supplements: Presence of Serotonin and Significant Variability of Melatonin Content

Welcome to Episode 265 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 2 10 oz. ribeyes, 5 lbs of chicken drumsticks, and a pack of burgers for FREE!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

scott's personal story

orphan drugs

MD Logic

purity, potency, and testing

GMP (Good Manufacturing process)

testing for authenticity, purity and potency

melatonin

organics

Other Ingredients

variances in dosage

BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

fillers and side effects

MCT as the flow agent

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #136 - Dr. Steven Gundry

enteric coatings

Frequently Asked Questions

serrapeptase

timing

long term supplemental use, should you take a break?

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rotation

vitamin d

magnesium

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taking with or without food, fasted or unfasted

HCL and digestive enzymes

heartburn medicines

Recommendations for other supplements

use the code melanieavalon for 10% any Order At AvalonX.us and mdlogichealth.com, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 265 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get a free grilling bundle with over seven pounds of delicious meat all for free. Yes, for free. We are so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught sustainable and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency, regarding grazing practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated. I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished. That's really hard to find. And they work personally with all the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves, but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens, which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick, for example often tests high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally, completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 265 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with somebody very, very special. Friends, I've been so excited about this episode for so long. You guys know on the podcast, we have been fans of a supplement called serrapeptase for quite a while and a lot of you're probably familiar with it now, but I actually, recently in winter of 2021 launched my own supplement brand AvalonX and the first supplement was serrapeptase. And you guys were so, so excited. It's done so well. I learned so much in that process about the world of supplements, how they're made, how they're created, what you need to be looking for with brands and ingredients, and I have learned so much. I've been getting so many questions from listeners. I thought it would be very, very appropriate and welcome to bring on my fantastic partner, who made the entire AvalonX product line a possibility, I would not be here today if it were not for this incredible man, this human being, who has become one of my dearest friends of all time, I am here with Scott Emmens. He is the co-founder and Chief Operating Officer, COO of MD Logic supplements. And we've been looking forward to this episode for so long to tell our stories about how we met up and started the whole process of creating the AvalonX supplement line. And yeah, actually, just having an educational episode as well on the supplement industry and what you need to be looking for when taking supplements. There're so many things that I'm excited to tackle. And Scott, thank you so much for being here.

Scott Emmens: Melanie, thank you so much and we do have quite the story to tell about this journey that we've both been on together. I'm thrilled to be on The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I've been listening to you for quite some time now. It's quite a privilege to be a guest on the show.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is a really surreal moment. I'm just taking it in right now, because I remember-- Well, Scott and I have a debate about in the beginning, who reached out to who and who rescheduled on who, because Scott insists that I rescheduled on him multiple times and was pushing him off to talk to [giggles] in the beginning.

Scott Emmens: I'm sticking with that story.

Melanie Avalon: But just going back to the beginning, it's really surreal from that moment that we first connected to where we are now. Because I know, regardless of the details of how it happened, we did have a phone call to meet each other many, many months ago, about a year ago now, right?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. It was almost a year to the day. It's just about a year.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's crazy. We had a phone call. Basically, Scott reached out to me. Again, we debate how this actually went down. But he reached out to me to talk about his MD Logic line and just the potential for synergy there. We weren't quite sure in what capacity, but I had been wanting to potentially create a supplement line and potentially make a serrapeptase. When we had our first call, we just connected on so many levels. I think we literally talked about the role of enteric coatings in supplements for probably 45 minutes and I think that's when we know that there's something here. I'm going to stop talking though, Scott, would you like to tell listeners a little bit about your personal story, because you do have a history in the pharmaceutical industry prior to your work at MD Logic. So, what's your background, what's your story, how did you come to MD Logic, why are you and I working together now, just all the things?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. I'd love to tell my side of how we met. Actually, I think it was you that either responded quickly or maybe liked something I sent your way and it was near infrared and my DYI infrared sauna. So, I put that on Instagram. I think I just either copied you or sent you.

Melanie Avalon: Scott, I don't think that happened.

Scott Emmens: It did. You totally loved my DYI Infrared Sauna.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, maybe. I think maybe you DM'ed me it and maybe I liked the DM. Is that possibility?

Scott Emmens: You know what? That's very possible. That's probably more likely. I said I'd love to catch up with you and discuss how we could partner together. And you said, "That sounds good. We'll be in touch." And then we set up a date, and then you rescheduled, and then we set up a date, and then you rescheduled, and then I thought, "Well, if the third one doesn't happen, this is probably not going to happen." And then we ultimately did connect by phone and you're right. It was supposed to be, I think, a 30-minute exploratory phone call and we've spent two hours on the phone just talking about the geekiest stuff you can possibly talk about when it comes to supplements, and science, and biohacking. It was a great conversation. I knew immediately that we'd end up working together from that moment. I was excited.

To answer your question a little bit about my background for you and for your audience, so, I did start my career in pharmaceuticals. I spent a good 20 plus years in the biotech pharmaceutical space and it ranged from your mundane blood pressure medications, all the way to orphan drugs, and rare disease medications. Orphan drugs are drugs that are for diseases. They're really made for orphan diseases. And those are diseases that are defined as, I believe it's less than 20,000 patients. You have to double check me on the number. But if you have a drug that's in the orphan or rare disease space, orphan being the most rare. Then the FDA gives that usually Fast Track approval and typically, they're going to give you a voucher to get your product to market sooner.

The reason that they do that is, if it's a disease that's "an orphan disease" and then 20,000 patients that have it, well, there's not a lot of impetus or motivation from a pharmaceutical company to take the time and energy to find the population, to conduct the study, and then to make a drug that's reasonably priced enough, that's not going to break the bank of those 20,000 patients, but these people need help and support. So, the FDA gives special timelines and a slightly different review process for orphan drugs. It really just allows them to get to market much faster for less capital upfront.

Melanie Avalon: Last night, I was listening to Peter Attia, one of his Q&A episodes on drug trials, and he was talking about how Phase 1 of the drug trial is testing only for toxicity, basically. So, in that situation, do they even Fast Track that, because not to be morbid, but there's less chance of hurting people?

Scott Emmens: No, you're still going to have to do all of your toxicity studies right and you're going to have to do all of the basic toxicity studies, and metabolite studies, and you're going to have to do all the essential things to make sure the product is essentially safe and effective. However, where there are some differences is, for example, the size of the trial. For a cholesterol medication, you might need to do 5,000 to 7,000 patients. But for an orphan drug, you may only need to study, let's say, two studies of hundred patients per study. Because it's so difficult to find those patients and enroll them, you're not going to be able to do that with 5000 people. It's only 20,000 people. Where you see the speed pickup is in the number of patients that are in the trial, it's going to be a much smaller trial, and then the FDA expedites review of that product.

The other thing that can happen is, in the regulatory decision, where the FDA has to make a decision on this drug for said orphan disease, they might be more inclined to approve it, even if it has some known side effects. Because there's nothing else or there's the other products in the market also cause side effects, they're not very effective. So, you might get a little bit more leniency in an orphan drug or disease state that's very serious, but just really doesn't have any effective treatments.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. That's what I think I was getting at the leniency. That would make sense.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. When the FDA board votes, they'll take everything into consideration. Risk benefit ratio and when you're looking at an orphan disease, obviously, the benefit to risk ratio is going to bump up a little, because you've got so few patients that are really, really sick, because typically, these orphan diseases, the outcome is a lot of morbidity and mortality and it's rather quick. Often, they're going to give the benefit of the doubt to get that product to market. What they'll do if the product, let's say, has some side effects they're pretty concerned about, they might do what's called an extension trial. I think it's called [unintelligible [00:15:39] the acronym. And that's basically a post-marketing tracking of every prescription written to every patient that gets that drug and then you track everything that happens with that patient for a period of two to three years to make sure that those concerns you might have had don't show up in a larger population or in a more significant way.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so, back to your story.

Scott Emmens: I spent a lot of time in the biotech industry. But my mother was an early influence on me. She was a little bit of a hippie in the day in the 70s. Everything was organically made, everything was homemade. For Easter, I literally got sesame sticks, like, that was my Easter candy. [laughs] My treat might be some grapes. I didn't know what a cookie was or a Ring Ding until I went to kindergarten and I tasted another kid's lunch and I was like, "What is that spectacular thing you're eating?" I kind of grew up in this health environment and then in sixth through maybe 10th grade ate a lot of junk food as most kids that age do. But I did notice, I didn't feel as good. I started playing sports, and I started wrestling, and I really wanted to get healthy. That's when I got back into, "How am I going to keep my performance as a wrestler in peak performance?" and this was the 80s, 90s. I'm dating myself a tad, but that's Muscular Development. What was the other magazine that was out of the time? Ironman, something or other. I don't even know if Men's Fitness was out at that point.

I really started to dig into that and then I started to dig into some biology books, and just felt like, "This was what I wanted to do." I loved understanding how the human body worked, I loved enhancing the optimization of my own personal physical performance. Then I just loved science, it was my thing. As you know, all things sci-fi including Star Trek. When I went to college, I became an environmental science major, to kind of dig in that, but I got more and more into weightlifting, which then turned into bodybuilding. Now, bodybuilding is probably one of the greatest ways to self-learn biohacking, but I don't recommend it. It's not exactly the healthiest sport that there is on earth. But you do learn exactly how your body feels. You get to the point, where when you're bodybuilding, you've got to get down to 4% body fat, you've got to keep your muscle mass going. I was a natural bodybuilder, not doing steroids. For me, I had to work a little harder, I had to know the nutrition a little better, I had to really make sure that what I was doing was working, because I was going up against these guys that I knew were doing other testosterone therapies, we'll call it. So, I really wanted to continue on that path and so I switched majors at that point to become a biology major with the intention of going into sports medicine as a physician assistant. So, that was the path.

While I was doing, my physician assistant rotation in the hospital, these pharmaceutical people were coming into the hospital to talk to doctors. Well, a few folks started talking about it, a couple of managers met me and the next thing I knew I was getting recruited/drafted into the pharmaceutical industry. I found myself with a really well-paying job and I really enjoyed teaching the science and helping, spread the message about education, about how to prevent diabetes or whatever the disease I was working on at the time, prevent hypertension. And then, explaining to the physicians, where our drug was appropriate, where it wasn't appropriate. It was a really good career and I really enjoyed that for a long time. Ultimately, though, I started my own biotech company. That worked out really well. We sold that in 2020. And then my passion, which has always been optimizing human health and longevity, I had an opportunity to begin building this wellness company with one of the other partners from my biotech company and we decided to do that in February of 2020, literally, one month before the pandemic.

Melanie Avalon: A few thoughts to that. First of all, I know your story and I've gotten to know you so well over the past year. But just hearing your story again now, it just iterates to me how perfect of a partner you are, because you have the background, and the experience, and all the things like you just talked about. You have the health and wellness background from growing up and realizing the importance of nutrition, the bodybuilding world, which is such a world, I think for understanding. Again, like you said, how things really do affect your body and including things like supplements. Then you have the pharmaceutical background, and then ultimately, MD Logic. Can you talk a little bit more about MD Logic and also, because MD Logic already existed prior to 2020? So, what brought you to that company and what are their current goals? What do you guys do?

Scott Emmens: That's a great question. MD Logic was started in 2005 by a group of physicians, who were really struggling at that point. There were a number of physician-only brands, but not nearly as many as they are today. And they didn't feel they were getting the exact products that they wanted. They created MD Logic, and worked with our manufacturer to design and make their line of products. They didn't want them to be private label with their physician, individual physician names on it. They want it to be a brand of products that physicians could trust and go to. They created that brand in 2005 and brand again till 2020. What made us decide to take on MD Logic was, it just really happened organically. My partner, Wes and I both are big tennis buffs, we love playing tennis, and we would talk about strategy, and talk about playing tennis.

One day, Wes just got into the topic of, "What do you do for maintenance of health and how do you keep your joints in shape?" Because Wes is about my age. I'm 51 years old. At that age, these things are important. I started telling you, "Oh, actually, I'm really into the supplement world and in the biohacking world, here are some things I can give you some guidance on." I started giving Wes some tips on what you might want to take for tennis in terms of a pre-workout mix, what do you might want to take post workout, how to avoid--? He was getting some cramps in his legs, things like that. We just had these informal discussions. And then as we got closer to selling our biotech company, the opportunity to buy MD Logic came along, because the owner of the brand had moved the other physicians, only two or three physicians still actively using it at that point. We had an opportunity to purchase it and we said, "You know what, this looks like a really good brand. We know the manufacturer and we know that they're going to continue to support the product, we know that they have the highest standards of quality, they test the product before they-- every ingredient is tested before it even comes in for purity, for potency, for toxic metals, mold, and then its composition to make sure it is what they say it is." Every single ingredient is tested before it even walks in the door.

And then all those products that are made are retested, again, to make sure that they have that same purity, that same potency, that they have all the things that we've said that they were going to have in them and they pass all the compliance tests as well. We knew the quality of the company, we knew a few of the positions, we interviewed with them. They raved about the brand, they raved about the products, they just felt like it needed some tender loving care. Having been in the biotech industry and being a supplement buff, Wes also liked supplements. He was into health. We just said let's pool our money together, and bring in some investors, and start this company. And so, that's what we did. We bought MD Logic, the brand and then turned it into a company in 2020.

Melanie Avalon: Well, congrats on that, by the way. A few things I wanted to touch on. One was, I just want to tell the listeners, when Scott says that he's into the biohacking stuff, he really is into the biohacking stuff. That's been one of the most amazing things about our relationship, as well as we can just geek out on all of the biohacking things for so long. You listen to all of the stuff I listen to and are really interested in all the different dietary and lifestyle approaches. It's been really, really wonderful. I'm glad you brought up the purity and the potency and the testing and all of that, because there're two really big topics that I definitely want to tackle in today's episode. And one is the actual supplement industry itself and what's going into that, what to look for, and then also the huge topic of what supplements people actually need to take, or should be taking, or might want to take? And as a teaser, I do have a lot of questions from listeners I'll be leaving those in as well.

I was debating which avenue to go first, but maybe since you did touch on that purity, that potency that testing, so, stepping back a little, supplements in general, because there's pharmaceuticals that require a prescription from a doctor, then there's this whole supplement world, where people can get supplements on the shelf to the store, they can get them online, they're very easily accessible. And at least from my understanding, there seems to be very little regulation. So, here's the first question. I think supplements can seem more credible if they're on a store shelf, but what does that even mean? Are all supplements safe to take? What are your thoughts on where we get our supplements from, what should we be looking for in supplements?

Scott Emmens: There's a lot of different questions and a lot of nuances to what you're asking. I think everyone has those questions. Everyone wonders like, "Is this generic brand from drugstore A, is this a good brand?" "Is this stuff from large, shipping company, is this a good supplement?" The brand itself may very well be a good brand. The issue with them going and being sitting in other warehouses or sitting in third party warehouses with the brand have no control over what's going on. It could accelerate the degradation of that product. Yes, I think people tend to think when they see it on a shelf that it might have a higher quality in point in fact, though, it might just be easy to take those products and put them on the shelf, because they can manufacture them in huge bulk for very little cost, and they're using ingredients that aren't necessarily the best forms of ingredients. For example, you and I will talk more about this. I'm sure have been working on a magnesium and what are all the right forms you want. We've discovered there're somewhere between 12 and 16 different magnesiums depending on how you want to define which ones are "allowed in the US," which ones are under patent, et cetera, but there's no less than 12 forms of magnesium.

We know that magnesium oxide, for example, while it contains a high amount of elemental magnesium, your body only absorbs about 5% of it. It's not a very good magnesium by itself to replace low dietary magnesium. Just because something's on a shelf, or at a store, or even at a high-end store, a lot of times those products are just third-party manufactured for that high end store by another manufacturer. Since you don't have visibility into who that manufacturer is, you don't necessarily know if it's good. The things to look forward that a lot of folks know are and the most important is, United States manufactured, meaning assembled. Now, they're going to get ingredients from all over the world. You're going to source ingredients from all over the world. But you want a manufacturer in the United States, so that it's done under certain stringent guidelines, and those stringent guidelines are the same ones that the FDA has for prescription drugs and that's called GMP or good manufacturing process. Most people don't recognize that if you have GMP, it's not just a certification that you get once. If you're a GMP-certified manufacturing facility for supplements, you were under the FDA's purview all of the time.

Just part of their natural way that they do business, if you're a GMP facility is they're going to come to your facility, every year, sometimes two or more often, if they suspect something is going wrong, but at least every year, sometimes it's a surprise, sometimes they announce it, and they come in and they look for various things you're not doing correctly to the GMP process. For example, one of the things that they want you to do is isolate ingredients, so that you're not getting cross contamination. If they were to come into a facility and see two ingredients that were crisscrossing or touching one another, that might be a note in their findings. And then you can get various degrees of warning letters that will either create them to want to be in your facility more often. They'll ask for a written, how are you going to resolve this. That's the GMP manufacturing portion. The FDA does inspect all of the GMP certified facilities and make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to do. That's why that GMP certification is so important. So, you don't see that on your bottle or it's not clearly clear, then you probably don't want to go with that company.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, I learned so much just now. I didn't realize all of that nuance behind that certification. I've learned a lot. This is very helpful. Does that certification include the testing for purity, and potency, and toxicity as well?

Scott Emmens: Yes. Order for the products to be considered safe for human consumption, you've got to do a baseline of certifications. Now, if you get a CFA from the vendor, some companies would take that CFA from the vendor and say, "Okay, this is clean, because we have the CFA vendor put it on to the vendor." Meaning, the person who sold you the raw ingredient. The problem with doing just that way though, is A, you're not really following the spirit of the laws of GMP meeting. You've tested it. And B, there are companies that will sell active ingredient that maybe is a little old, maybe it's supposed to be 80% pure, but it's only 75% pure, it's not quite reading specs, and they'll try and discount it, and there are some shops that will purchase that stuff. Now, there's nothing wrong with it as long as it doesn't go bad and they disclose that their percentage is lower. But if they don't test it, how would they know. It's really important that every company test their active ingredient or the raw ingredient that comes in for the potency of that product, the purity of that product, and then to make sure that that product is free of toxins, and molds, and heavy metals. And finally, that the product that you've gotten is in fact, the product that you said. Meaning I asked for astragalus, and I got astragalus or I asked for astragalus, and it's 60% astragalus and it's 30% just cellulose.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to that, there are some pretty shocking studies where they do just that they look at different brands and see if they actually contain what they say they contain and it's just not. Like, did you say that study on the melatonin?

Scott Emmens: I did not. But it's interesting, you bring that up a mutual friend of ours, who just tried the MD Logic melatonin. She said, "She took three," because she always takes three of her brand and she said, "it knocked her out," because and then she said, "I don't think that the brand I'm taking actually has six milligrams, it says six milligrams, but I was taking three and I was fine in the morning. I took three of yours, which are five milligrams and I was so tired in the morning." She said clearly, they weren't six milligrams. So, I'm curious to hear this melatonin story or study I should say.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I haven't read it in a while. So, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But it basically just looked at these different melatonin supplements from multiple brands and it was all over the place as far as if it actually contained what it said. It was pretty scary.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, that doesn't totally shock me, especially with melatonin, because I have had some interesting experiences with melatonin as well, much like our friend. But I think that's why it's so important. Again, if you're following GMP all the way, and then you're going that extra level, for example, we don't just test the ingredients as they come in, we then batch test, meaning, we randomly pull bottles off of the assembly line, and then test those bottles, and the product in it to say, "Okay, we've said there's five milligrams of melatonin in every capsule, is there five milligrams of melatonin in every capsule?" Or the multi-ingredient like our immunologic, which has seven, I think it's 14 different ingredients. You got zinc, quercetin, vitamin D, vitamin C, astragalus, selenium. We have to then take those and individually test a few of those bottles coming off the shelves as the batches going through to say, "Does it have 10 milligrams of selenium or does it have the 50 milligrams of zinc that we've said." It's not just that we're testing the ingredients as they're coming in. We make sure that once the final product is done, that final product also passes all of those same tests in the additional test is, does it have the milligrams of each ingredient that we've said it has. If it doesn't, then it just gets thrown away and we either check the batch or that might be a bad bottle, maybe it's a one off, or you just make an entire new batch. We're not going to send something out that does not have what we say is in it.

Melanie Avalon: It's something else that this made me think of and it's something you and I have talked about a lot, because you're talking about testing for the toxins and the mold and things like that. Because we've been working on formulating a berberine, for example. It was really important to me to get a USDA organic berberine. But then the more we are talking about it, the more I was realizing that say you don't use an organic berberine. If you yourself are doing all of that testing to ascertain if there are toxins or not, it's almost like not that the USDA organic label isn't important, but I can see how it'd be possible that you could have a non-organic supplement tested that would be "safer" than an organic supplement that wasn't tested. Thoughts?

Scott Emmens: Yeah, that's absolutely true. I think it's just like when we say natural flavors versus artificial flavors, you could have a natural product or natural flavor. There's just as many downsides or more than something that is artificial. There is some truth to that. To your point, because you're testing for the purity of that ingredient, you're testing for the heavy metals and the toxins in that ingredient. You're likely going to the point mitigate the risk of "it's not organic." Now, it's always better if you can, not always, it's mostly better if you can start with organic, because then you are more likely to have less toxins and then there are some things that are just really difficult to detect like pesticides and to what level of the pesticides in there. Those are tests that are not necessarily as easy to complete with every single ingredient. So, if it's organic, you're a little more confident that it's not covered in some sort of pesticide.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, 100%. Another question from that. That said, we're testing the actual ingredients for toxicity, and mold, and issues, and heavy metals. But there are all of these other ingredients that are very, very common in supplements, GMP-certified supplements as well, but might actually pose an issue. I've learned so much about this with our own formulation for the serrapeptase and our future supplements. Why are there these other ingredients in the first place? Jessica says, "How can I better understand what the other ingredients in a supplement may be doing to my body?" What are these other ingredients, are they necessarily safe, why are they there, other ingredients? And for listeners, I mean, maybe this is being too over clarifying. But if you look at the supplement bottle, you see the actual supplement that you're buying it for the active ingredient, but then there's this other ingredient list and it often includes these other things. So, what are those and should we be concerned about them?

Scott Emmens: Before I get into what those are, because I think your listeners are going to learn something about what the purpose is. They might know what those things are, they might have heard of magnesium stearate or calcium palmitate, but what is the purpose and why are they used? I want to take one quick step back, because earlier you had said, it's not a lot of FDA supervision on the supplement companies. I would say, actually, the FDA does a really good job of monitoring claims of companies that are making claims about their supplements. They do a good job on the companies that are GMP certified and making sure that they're following the good manufacturing processes to prevent contamination, to prevent any toxins from getting in there to make sure that all of the processes are being followed, so that the ingredients are correct. They do a pretty good job of that and they do a really good job of watching what people are putting claims on. There is a good bit of scrutiny from the FDA on supplements.

I think where the public perception comes in is what you were talking about earlier, that sometimes, the ingredients are just not to the level that they say. They're a little bit too much, a little bit too little. But interestingly enough, that can actually happen with prescription drugs. A generic drug can actually have a variance of 10%. Meaning, they say it's got 1000 milligrams in it, maybe it only has 900, maybe it has 1,100. There are variances. Even within prescription drugs, they allow for a slight variance within that spectrum. What might happen is, these companies are is taking a variance a little too far. But there is a good oversight. I just want to be clear that there's a good oversight. I think the majority of companies try to do the right thing, especially in today's climate and with a lot of the quality companies that are out there. But there are a lot of folks that are just either trying too hard to get their product to market and maybe taking advantage of that 10% on either side.

Melanie Avalon: That's a good clarity. Really quick question. The 10%, is it 10% across the board or is it adjusted for--? If you have a supplement, where the effective dose is a very narrow range, like, the 10% might have more implications based on what the original dosing is?

Scott Emmens: Yes. Especially, if it's a medication that has a really narrow therapeutic index to put that into normal terms, that means that the dose that you take for getting well and then the dose that will make you really sick are really, you're talking about a couple of milligrams difference. If 10 milligrams makes you better, but 12 makes you sick, that's a narrow therapeutic window. In that case, you've got to be really spot on with your product. There are some products, for example, that have been generic for decades. But the main manufacturer is still the one that makes it, because the process to do it and make sure that it stays within that that really tight, narrow therapeutic index is so difficult that the generic companies don't want to take it on.

A great example of that are some of the thyroid hormones, because they have to be really specific. I think Premarin might still be manufactured by the original makers of it, it might be generic, but I think it still might be manufactured by them, don't quote me on that, but there are drugs like that. Antidepressants, there's some where the generic version wasn't quite getting it done. So, they had to go back to the branded one to make sure it was within that therapeutic window. So, very astute, Melanie, I think, if you've got a product that has a narrow therapeutic window, meaning, a tiny miss on either side could cause problems, yes, at that point you're going to have much more stringent guidelines and you should.

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Melanie Avalon: There's a book I've been wanting to read and now, the title of it is slipping my mind. I was discussing it actually with Dr. Alan Christianson. He wrote an array of books like The Thyroid Reset Diet and The Metabolism Reset Diet, but he works a lot with the thyroid. And he, for example, is not a fan of compounded thyroid medication, because of the potential for what you just spoke about. It's such a narrow range that if it's even just off a little bit, it can have massive implications. And there's some book that came out recently that was all about this. I'll have to find it and put it in the show notes. But it was about compounding pharmacies doing the wrong amounts of things and the issues that happen with that.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, compound pharmacies are a great thing to have. Because there're certain people that need very special designs of medications or kids that can't swallow pills. Compound pharmacies serve a really important niche in the healthcare space, where they've gotten into trouble is where exactly what you've said. They're not spending enough time being precise with the exact dose on medicines that it really makes a difference in and to the listeners so I'm sure most know what a compound pharmacy is, but in case you don't, a compound pharmacy is a pharmacy that will take a medication that's in a pill form or gel form, and they'll blend it into a liquid for a child, for example, or they'll take two or three other medications, and they'll blend them together to get to the right progesterone or estrogen ratio, let's say they were working on a hormone product, for example. So, that's what they do and they serve that great purpose.

But yes, you're right, Melanie. Where they've gotten into trouble is, where they've got these products that are narrow therapeutic windows and they're over or under prescribing or adding that active ingredient. And the other places, sometimes, there was one big case in the early 2000s I want to say, where there was a tremendous amount of cross contamination with bacteria, and viruses, and things that were getting into the, I think, it might have been even E. coli that was getting into this one particular product.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that brings everything together full circle, because the other use of compounding pharmacies could be included in what you just said, but it might be a little bit different, which is sometimes, they will rather than get the generic form and crush it up or dose it differently, they'll get just the source ingredient and then you can actually choose your own fillers. This is why everything comes together. For example, I get things compounded often, because I'm on thyroid medication. I do actually use a compounding pharmacy, but they get just the pure thyroid hormone and then I choose the filler. So, I usually compound them with ascorbic acid, which is vitamin C, which brings us back to this filler thing.

Scott Emmens: It does, pulls that to full circle.

Melanie Avalon: So, the fillers, I've been very specific about them for a while. So, what are they?

Scott Emmens: There're two things that people sometimes get confused. There are anti-caking agents and then there are fillers, and they're used for two very different purposes. The most common thing you're going to see on your labels is going to be magnesium stearate, or calcium palmitate, or silicon dioxide and that will be on the other ingredients list. You also see micro cellulose from time to time, stearic acid, hypromellose things like that. But the big ones are the stearate, the palmitate, [unintelligible [00:48:17], silicon dioxide rather and those are anti-caking agents. Why do you need an anti-caking agent? Well, when you're making these products in massive quantities, they're going through these machines and then you have to get into this tiny little capsule at a very high rate of speed. But a lot of these supplements are sticky and they attract water. Well, as soon as the water, let's say, the machine is cold, and you're putting warm powder in there, and condensation, all of a sudden, the moisture from the air, the product starts to kick up. And then if you're adding another product that maybe is a little bit sticky, the product really starts to kick up.

They use these anti-caking agents, which are things like magnesium stearate, and calcium palmitate, and so forth, so that the product just flows through the machine quickly and easily into the capsule without jamming up the machines, so, they can make 20 million capsules at the price that it would cost to make 20,000 capsules if you're doing it smaller. That's why those anti-caking agents are used and they're the mainstay of the industry. In terms of their health benefit or health effects, magnesium stearate is actually in foods that you eat. You're going to see magnesium stearate and other stearates in things like beef, and milk, and eggs. It is a natural stearic acid. I believe it's a long chain saturated fatty acid. But again, it's a flow or anti-caking agent. Its main deal is just keep a barrier, so that that powder gets in there and the consistency of the medication is precise. That's what it's doing.

In terms of what it could be doing negative, there are people that feel it could have a laxative effect on you, for folks that do have delicate bowel situations, which I know is something that you talk about quite a bit, it can irritate the mucous lining of your bowels and trigger some issues in your bowels that aren't necessarily going to be positive. There are some studies, however, they haven't really panned out that there could be a minor in large doses mind you not like one pill, in large doses. There could be some mild impact on immune system if you're taking them in significant amounts. And then there's a little bit of a concern from people that think that pesticides might be in that stearate, because a lot of the stearate comes from seed oils and seed oils are particularly of concern, especially some of the genetically modified ones that are designed to be sprayed with various insecticides and pesticides.

In terms of what the FDA says, magnesium stearate is G.R.A.S., which is generally recognized as safe as are all the other anti-caking agents. If you're taking one or two supplements a day, I wouldn't be concerned about at all. Even three or four supplements a day, I wouldn't be concerned about at all. But when you start taking 10, 11 supplements a day, many of us biohackers do, that's where you start to think maybe I'd like to dial down my magnesium stearate. I know that was a particular point, when we were creating your serrapeptase, you were adamant that you did not want any serrapeptase in your--magnesium stearate, palmitate, anything that was on that spectrum of potentially bad, you didn't want that in there. And I'll pause there to get your either follow up question or thoughts on that.

Melanie Avalon: I look at so many supplement brands. I'm always looking at different supplements, because it's been a huge part of my life for so long with my focus on health and wellness in biohacking and all the things. And maybe I err on the side of being overcautious. I thought what you just gave us a very nuanced and excellent answer to the question, because you're not saying like, it's going to kill you. It's bad automatically, nor that it's completely fine. It seems context is really important.

Scott Emmens: Dosage and context.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Although, interestingly, I was just thinking, because there's again, I'm going to reference a book that I don't remember. Although, I did remember the other book, the compounding book was called Kill Shot. It came out in February of 2021. The tagline says, The Untold Story Of The Worst Contaminated Drug Crisis In U.S. History.

Scott Emmens: That's the one I was talking about, where they--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. What year was that? Early 2000?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure, probably.

Scott Emmens: What year was that?

Melanie Avalon: That it came out or that what it's about?

Scott Emmens: When the contamination happened? I was thinking early 2000s.

Melanie Avalon: It was the New England Compounding Center. They don't say the date.

Scott Emmens: And that's really what got compounding pharmacies on the radar in a negative way. That was a landmark case.

Melanie Avalon: They don't say the date in the brief description, but I'll put a link to it in the show notes. There was another book, I don’t know if it was a book or just a person in this sphere, but he was advocating the idea that potential toxicity of the buildup of these fillers and things in our supplements in our body, which again, it's hard to know to what extent these things are actually having certain effects. But I guess, just for me, I just would love to err on the side of-- If I can take it all out to the extent that I can, that would be amazing. Okay, friends, listeners, so, when I met Scott, this is going to answer this topic, this question that we're talking about, we decided to create serrapeptase for the first supplement and maybe we can circle back to why we made that decision. But in the initial formulation process, I was so intense and Scott had to look up so many things for me. I was like, "He's going to leave, he's going to give up on me."

Scott Emmens: It was close, Melanie. it was borderline for a while there. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I felt so bad, because I would basically veto everything and then he would go and do all this research, and he would come to me really excited with an ingredient we could possibly use and I'd be like, "Nope, we can't use that either, because of blah, blah, blah." He found an organic rice related supplement and then I was like, "No, because people with autoimmune issues might struggle."

Scott Emmens: I was so excited about that one, because you would say, "I don't want any magnesium stearate, I don't want any--" I'm like, "All right, I still need some sort of flow agent." And so, I found this flow agent that was made from rice husks and I was like, "Oh, perfect, organic rice husks. This is perfect. She's going to love it." And then you're like, "Yeah, no, I don't do rice." I was like that was the one that broke me. I was like, "Oh, my God." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because you also came to me with acacia and you were so excited. You're like, "This has been shown to help people's bowel movements, it has benefits" and I was like, "No, we can't do acacia. It's a no for people who have-- I think people, who react to FODMAPs."

Scott Emmens: Yes, which I learned about that day. Yeah, I remember.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, thank you for sticking with me, because I know that was really rough. [giggles] But then I'll let you tell the story what we came to.

Scott Emmens: The reason that I stuck with you was because I had the same vision of like, "What's the cleanest possible product that we can create?" Not just the first product, but to the entire line. You and I have discussed that, MD Logic is beginning to look at all of our products and figure out, where can we get rid of the stearates and the palmitates, and what will we use to replace them. It's not as easy as just swapping out. For each product, we're making with you, Melanie, as you know and well, tell it to the audience, it's not like we can just come up with a system that works for every product, because each ingredient has its own level of stickiness. Enzymes happen to be particularly sticky. Serrapeptase is particularly prone to caking up. That one took a lot of how are we going to make this with just medium chain triglycerides, which was a huge, huge success. The fact that we could make a high-potency serrapeptase in MCTs which our research as you and I were discussing it not only could act as the flow agent, but also might enhance its absorption as what we saw in the literature said that the serrapeptase is likely helped by fatty acids and medium chain triglyceride in terms of the absorption through the intestine. So, it was like a double win.

You're getting this pure MCT with no other fillers, just the capsule and the serrapeptase in the flow agent of MCTs and then that MCT also helped absorption. It was such a huge win. But it was a challenge to get to that point. But the reason I was so hell bent on figuring out how we're going to do this is, I just knew that if we can do it for this product, we can do it for others. And that's where the long-term vision of MD Logic and that's the long-term vision for AvalonX. To your point, let's have the cleanest powerful product. Maybe the magnesium stearate, it's not that bad. But if you're taking, again, 10, 20 capsules a day and you can eliminate it, why not?

Melanie Avalon: I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much. Because I just see what you told me going back and forth and bringing me these things. Even with the MCTs, it was an up and down situation. We thought it would maybe work, but then it was like a no, but then it was a yes, but then it was a no. I was riding on the edge of my seat wondering what was going to happen and I just can't even imagine all the phone calls and things that you had to do to make that happen. So, thank you so, so much. The thing I love about the MCTs is and to clarify for people, because this is the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Listeners are concerned about the clean fast and things like that. And actually, a lot of listener questions about that. So, from my perspective, the MCTs, well, first of all, it's a tiny, tiny amount in these supplements. It's not like you're taking a tablespoon of MCT oil.

Scott Emmens: No, much smaller than that.

Melanie Avalon: It's tiny. But even in that amount, I personally don't see any way that it would break your fast, if anything I think it would actually enhance your fast. And then on top of that, it really helps with the absorption and things like that like we said. And actually, after interviewing Dr. Steven Gundry on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast for his newest book, which was Unlocking the Keto Code, he really got me thinking, maybe I should be supplementing a tiny bit of MCTs in my diet every day. And so, maybe this can contribute to that a little bit through the supplements.

Scott Emmens: That product will soon to be coming.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, teaser, teaser, teaser. Actually, another question though because this actually relates to all of this, because with serrapeptase specifically, and we should probably define what that is. But before we do, I'll just ask this question. A lot of people historically have experienced GI effects with serrapeptase. For example, Morris said, "Why do some people experience GI distress because of serrapeptase?" Actually, before we created our AvalonX serrapeptase, I thought it was from the enzyme itself. I thought it was something in serrapeptase that was upsetting people's guts. That might be the case, but I actually now, after everything we went through and ended up creating our formulation, and myself, so many of my audience reporting back that they experienced no GI distress with serrapeptase, and I can say personally, because I've been taking serrapeptase for years, and I always experienced a little bit of discomfort with it and with my AvalonX, none, gone, like it's completely gone. I think it might have been actually from the enteric coatings that are often used in serrapeptase.

Scott Emmens: That's a good point. We should probably talk briefly about that maybe.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I think so. Especially, because I think there's a lot of confusion out there about enteric coatings versus acid-resistant capsules like we use. What is the purpose of enteric coatings and acid-resistant capsules?

Scott Emmens: In enteric coating, whether it's on the product itself in the bead, where they make those little enteric-coated time release beads or within enteric coated-capsule.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Wait, can I pause you really quickly? Now, I'm getting a flashback. That was the thing, because when we first had our phone call, I was saying that the enteric coating was what we bonded over. But it was this discussion, when I was asking you about the enteric-coated beads versus the enteric-coated capsules. You were so excited, because I don't think anybody probably asked you that before and it was something you had thought about. So, yeah. Sorry, I interrupted.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I was very excited, because I'm like, "Ooh, I have studied this. I have this answer." Yes, I was excited to be able to discuss it. You were equally as excited to talk about it. I remember distinctly we were having a conversation about, you said, "Well, shouldn't it be enteric coated, because it has to get through the acid of the stomach." I said, "It absolutely has to make it through the stomach." It's acid liable, meaning, it gets destroyed in acid. Yes, we've got to make it get through the stomach intact. But I don't think enteric coating is the best way to go for a couple of reasons. The first is, it's either a chemical coating on the capsule itself and that chemical coating is usually some plasticized chemical. Basically, it's like a plastic. These enteric-coated capsules, they don't necessarily tell you the ingredients in that enteric coating either. It might say, enteric-coated beads or enteric-coated capsule. But it doesn't always tell you what that enteric coating is made of. When the enteric coating came up, I said, "Well, if you do the enteric-coated beads or capsules, you're going to be putting another-- a different chemical on and/or a chemical/plastic, that's going to act as protectant before it gets into the stomach."

The other thing with enteric-coated beads, especially is, some of those beads break up before others, some don't make it through intact, so just to be wasn't the right way to go for your brand, because you wanted it so clean. Once we had the discussion, I think memory serves, you were like, "Yeah, absolutely I'm on board with that." The difference between your capsule and most of the "enteric-coated capsules" is it's a very, very robust, delayed, release capsule that is designed to not degrade in acid, but designed to degrade much faster in a pH of seven or above. I took four brands plus yours, and I had a video that I'll send out to you at some point in time. We put them in vinegar, which is about a three pH or so. The AvalonX brand was literally still intact three hours later. However, you put that in water and it dissolves in 10 minutes. I think that also might have something to do with the fact that you're not getting an upset stomach, because you're not having to digest plastics or other enteric-coated chemicals that are on these enteric-coated products that could have an impact on your GI system for sure. Your serrapeptase uses the capsule is a vegetable delayed capsule release, so it's vegan, there's no chemicals, nothing else on it. It's just designed to be acid resistant through its thickness in its osmotic layer and that's it. So, you're getting a pure delayed capsule versus an enteric released capsule or beads.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I was so thrilled when you took those videos and did those experiments at home, because that really shows the effectiveness. You can see that our AvalonX serrapeptase is not breaking down in the acidic conditions compared to how some of the other brands were, and then it does break down in the alkaline environment that you need it to release into the intestine. And then actually, since we're talking about it, that would answer-- Tracy's question was "serrapeptase." She wants to know, will coffee affect it and other people have been asking me that as well. Now, people can understand, why coffee is okay to have with it, because coffee is slightly acidic itself. And then I actually asked you this, Scott and you were saying that, coffee on top of once it gets mixed with your stomach acid, that environment will still be acidic enough that it's not going to break down the capsule.

Scott Emmens: I take my serrapeptase every morning with my coffee. That's the first thing I do is, I have my coffee, put a pinch of salt in my coffee. For a couple of reasons, it helps with bitterness and it also keeps you a little hydrated. Then I take my serrapeptase, no problem. You're right. Once you drank that coffee, it's hitting your stomach and that's a pH of two or three. It's not going to be anywhere near alkaline enough to dissolve that capsule.

Melanie Avalon: And then actually, we have another good question from Bridget. She says, "I just received your serrapeptase. I'm wondering when to take it? Will it break my clean fast and are there any contraindications with other supplements?" We've answered a bit of this, but we can recap. And also, for listeners, they can actually go to avalonx.us/faq and we have a lot of questions there. Briefly answer your questions, Bridget, "Well, will it break my clean fast?" I was talking about that earlier that it's fine for your clean fast. And then when to take it? It is super important to take it on an empty stomach for the reasons discussed, because if you take it with food and maybe this is the time, where we can actually talk about what it is, then there's a potential that it will break down, because it's a proteolytic enzyme that breaks down things that will actually attach to your food and break down your food rather than getting into your bloodstream, where it then breaks down problematic proteins in your body. So, to define serrapeptase, this actually goes back to Scott and I's first conversation because you hadn't heard of serrapeptase, right?

Scott Emmens: No. I got to say, we both caught each other with a supplement that neither of us had heard of. You had mentioned serrapeptase, I was talking about galantamine and I said, "I can't believe it, but I've never heard of serrapeptase." And then you started telling me about it. I think there's something here.

Melanie Avalon: Even now, I'm actually still shocked that you hadn't heard of it. But yeah, it's just funny, because it's a very niche supplement. But our audience on this show, they're so familiar with it, because I'm very well experienced and versed in supplements and I experiment with a lot of different ones, and we can talk about that a little bit later about what you should or should not be taking. But my cohost, Gin at the time, she doesn't take a lot of supplements, but there was one supplement she was currently taking when she and I first met, and it was serrapeptase. It created this whole serrapeptase fan club. Yeah, so, I was really passionate about it for so long. What it is? It's an enzyme originally created by the Japanese silkworm and it is not cultured in the lab, so yes, it is vegan. That's a big misconception. But when you take it in the fasted state, it actually goes into your bloodstream and then it can break down problematic proteins in your body. So, it can really help potentially alleviate conditions, where your body is reacting to these protein buildups.

The reason I started taking, for example, was for my allergies. It will clear your sinuses like none other. It's amazing for me for that and a lot of listeners have experienced that as well, and then people may experience reduced brain fog. And since then, I've gone and dived deep, deep, deep into the clinical literature about all the studies on it. There's been studies showing how it may reduce inflammation, and even potentially break down amyloid plaque, and reduce cholesterol, and enhance wound healing, and so many things. It's really just a wonder supplement and that it can really enhance so many beneficial processes in your body. That was a reason I wanted to create it as the foundational beginning enzyme. Do you have any thoughts about that or should I--?

Scott Emmens: Well, that's why I was so in favor of it, because one of the key success factors is that the person selling the product has to have a knowledge of it and a passion for it, and then their audience needs to have some education about what it is. Based on what you told me, I've been on an Intermittent Fasting Podcast for many years, it became a cult little enzyme amongst the audience that you and Gin talk to. I think that was part of the reason I wanted to do it with you as you had such a conviction and passion for it. After having done the research that you had sent over to me that you had and then doing my own research I thought, "This is some kind of product." I had actually ended up buying a few bottles of other brands to test them out. There were a couple I tested out that I was like, "I could feel after three or four capsules, my nasal passages clearing out, allergies getting better, and then I dug into the research on the amyloid plaque. Wow, there's really something here." Yes. I thought, "It was the perfect for supplement to start." It turned out to be true.

Your audience, thank you all. You guys have made it just such a tremendous success. It's really remarkable. I just want to circle back to the question of when to take it and about the fast. I think you've said this, Melanie. But actually, first thing in the morning is probably the best time to take it while you're still in your fasted state, because of the way that it works to the proteolytic enzyme and breaking down problematic proteins, it's going to do that better when your body is already in an autophagy state anyway, and you're almost assisting your body giving you that extra little boost during that time. I will also take it in the evening if I haven't had anything to eat for two or three hours. I'll take one before bed and I find it that helps me kind of wake up a little bit-- a little bit more pep in my step.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because we had a question from Teresa and she said, "Do you get benefits from taking serrapeptase more than once a day as in taking two at first wake up, then taking more, say, four hours later while still fasted?" That's actually a different situation than before bed like you were saying, but so, yes, you can take it multiple times and presumably if you're getting more into your system, there's more enzyme to be doing its magic.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. I think anything that you take multiple times is always going to be better than one time. That's just if you look at the way your body metabolizes things of the half-life of certain things, you're going to get a better outcome if it's in your system for a little bit of a longer period of time. Take one in the morning or two in the morning, one four hours later, you're going to spread the power of it over a longer period of time. For me, the reason I take one in the evening is, doing the research, although, it's mostly in animals. But when you look at the research that it has on breaking down various clots in the blood and various issues in the brain, I thought your brain does this rinse at night when you're sleeping. The cerebral fluid goes in your brain. For lack of a better word, like dishwashes your brain, cleanses it out. So, that's why I take my serrapeptase in the evening with my magnesium.

Melanie Avalon: And now, I'm so glad we're talking about this, because this actually ties into a much broader topic that we got a lot of questions about. There're actually two big questions here. One, we definitely need to get to, "Which is how to know what to actually take?" I think we can circle back to that. But first, since we're talking about the timing, we got a lot of questions about, "Should you be taking supplements regularly or should you be switching things up?" I'm just going to read some of these and then maybe we can just address all of it in a general answer. For example, Kimmy says that, "She has quite a few supplements that she likes to take and she wanted to know if it could or would be beneficial to take a few supplements one day and then on the next day take different supplements and alternate on different days."

I think the reason she's asking this is because Terry, for example, said, "should supplements be rotated, so that the body doesn't rely on them?" And then Tina wanted to know, "How do you know what to take long term versus short term?" Oh, and then also, Teresa wanted to know, "How frequently should we test changing doses or skipping doses and what might be assigned that a supplement is no longer working?" I think there's a lot of questions out there about, "should you take supplements every day, do they need to be rotated, do you build up a tolerance?" I think the answer is very long and nuanced, and it depends on what you're taking, and why. I have a lot of thoughts, but Scott, what are your thoughts about this?

Scott Emmens: As an avid taker of supplements, both personally and then as part of my profession, I understand where this question is coming from, because I have had this discussion many times. As a bodybuilder, one of the things you do is you switch up your exercises, so, your muscles don't get used to that same exercise and you continue to get growth. It makes a lot of intuitive sense to ask that question. The first thing I'll say, though is, this is a question you definitely want to work with a health coach on or a physician, someone qualified to work with you. If you can get some testing done, I think a lot of folks want to take supplements and just let their body tell them if it's working. If you're in tune with your body that's going to work more often than not. But I think you want to know where you're at from a testing perspective.

You know Melanie, we're working with a company right now as you are aware that does some great bloodwork that looks for various, I think it's almost 50 different biomarkers in your blood to determine what nutrients you need. They can combine that with a DNA test. We also have a DNA company working with, and you can combine those two things to look at what's going on, and then you can track that over time to see how it's going. So, there are ways to track what's happening in your body and what's going on both physiologically, meaning, how you feel and then what is happening from a blood chemistry level. I think those are important things to do. Now, they're expensive. So, I don't do them very often.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I don't know what company you're speaking about specifically, Scott. For listeners, I will provide a resource to a very similar company, which is InsideTracker and they've actually sponsored quite a few episodes on this show. They do provide bloodwork testing and I'm glad you were talking about that, because it goes into a broader question, which I think we need to answer. In order to answer the when to take and if you should rotate and all of that stuff, which is Sharon's question of, "How do we know which supplements to take to benefit us?"

Scott Emmens: That's exactly why I wanted to start there. Because if you don't know what's going on, you're using InsideTracker, they're going to let you take a blood test pretty much anywhere. The Quest Diagnostic is who they're mostly connected with. They'll even send someone to your home to take the blood for you. That's pretty easy. But that's your starting point. Because if you have no idea where your blood levels of magnesium, and iron, and copper, and manganese, if you don't know where they are and you just start randomly popping nutrients, you could be offsetting the balance.

One of the things that I've learned in this industry is that everything has a tradeoff. If you take too much vitamin A, you can bump down your vitamin D. Too much vitamin D, you bump down your vitamin A. Too much copper, you're messing with your iron. Too much iron, you're messing with your copper. Everything you take is going to have an impact on other nutrients, and so, you want to have them in balance. The first thing to do I think is to test. Once you've got that baseline test, you can decide what you're going to focus on and optimize, and then retest later, and see what's going on. That's I think pretty important to do because listening to your body is only going to get you so far. If you're taking things you don't need, you could be shifting the delicate balance of minerals in your body in the wrong direction. So, I'll leave that at that.

Melanie Avalon: These are examples of nutritional supplements. Vitamin D, iron, things like that, but I think it's important to step back, and there're big categories of supplements with different goals, and I think that informs what testing is needed, and how you might be taking it, and if it would need to be rotated. Things like the nutritional supplements that you just talked about, you're taking it for nutritional purpose, it's something that probably depending on what it is. It can be tested, so, you can actually see where your levels are. And then that would inform the frequency or the dosage that you're actually taking of that supplement. It would be a goal that would be related to what your blood level is showing. It's not necessarily-- I would love to hear your thoughts and if you have different thoughts about any of this, Scott, but it's not really something I don't think where you're going to build a tolerance, because you're filling in a nutritional gap. It would have been anyways an external nutrient that the body would need. For whatever reason, you're not able to get it via your diet or you need it in a different, more concentrated dose. So, it's not something where I'm as concerned about the tolerance effect. It's more about just what is the amount that you need and what are you getting? That'd be one category.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. First, let me start with, I completely agree with, what are your objectives in taking the supplements? Are they for beauty, are they for brawn and muscle, are they for your brain health, are they for emotional health, are they for hormonal health? I think the objective of why you're taking it and what you're trying to accomplish is just as important as the testing. You've got to know like, "What is the objective of trying to achieve? If I'm just trying to optimize my nutrition or am I trying to optimize my nutrition for a specific outcome?" That's important. Once you know those two things, you know your DNA says, "Oh, you've got a problem converting folic acid into usable folate." And then you go get tested and sure enough your folate levels are really low. Now, you know that folate it's probably something I'm going to need to take. Now, at what point do you want to "rotate it out?" Well, you may never want to rotate out folate because you've been tested, you know that your DNA doesn't process folic acid. So, that might be a vitamin that you just keep on going.

Another one, for example, is going to be magnesium. I'm never going to not take my magnesium, because I know I'm not getting it in my diet and I know it's crucial to so many different enzymatic processes of my body. It's crucial for athletic performance, it's crucial for ATP performance, it's crucial for bone manufacturing. I know there's no way in heck I'm getting enough magnesium. Things like that, I'm not going to necessarily rotate out. Things that I do rotate out, for example, are things that are more hormonally based or maybe a vitamin D, vitamin D3, I take in the wintertime, but I don't necessarily take in the summer, because I try to get out in the sun and get natural vitamin D. However, I was once surprised to see that I was doing that tactic, went and got my blood tested and my vitamin D was 32. Now, 32 is actually "normal." But for me, I like to be around 50. So, 32 was surprisingly low considering how much I was in the sun, at least how much I felt I was in the sun and how much vitamin D I was taking.

The other things I'll rotate, I rotate DHEA. I don't want to take DHEA all the time. I take that from time to time, give my body a little extra boost in the hormone arena. And then there's a product we make called Estro Detox. And that's for both men and women. I think men see that and they think it's a drug just for women. But there are so many plastics in our diet that act as estradiol, or estrogen mimickers, or what do they call muscle obesogens. On top of that, there's a lot of conversion from testosterone that can be to various forms of estrogen. I will do two weeks, I call it a cycle. Two weeks of Estro Detox, three capsules a day, and then I'll go three months and I won't take that. And then I'll retake it again and cleanse my body out of all that estrogen and plastics. There are things I do rotate. But in general, rotation to your point is not something you need to do for building up a tolerance to it. I think it's really more about do you really need it? And if you don't need it, why you're going to take it?

Melanie Avalon: For example, with a vitamin D, I think vitamin D is so, so important for immunity and so many things. That's something where it's been so helpful to have InsideTracker. For listeners, because it can be pricey, we do have a discount code. If you go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the coupon code MELANIE20, you can actually get 20% off sitewide. So, that's super helpful. But I just pulled up, for example, my InsideTracker app and I can see my vitamin D levels since 2019 on this really cool chart, and I can actually see every test what it was at. When I started, I was pretty low. I started at 36, I dropped at 27, down to the lowest I think was 24. Similar to you, Scott. And then I really got on top of it and I went overboard. So, I started doing one-to-three-minute sessions in UVB tanning booth and supplementing vitamin D and I actually shot it up to 126.

Scott Emmens: Wow, that's a big bump. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It was a slow. It went to 38, and then to 45, and then the next time I tested it was 126 in the red and I was like, "Oh, we need to backtrack a little bit." [laughs] I've actually been pretty good. The last four tests have been between in the 80s, which is the upper high range for InsideTracker's range. Yeah, so that's something super helpful. And then I'm really glad you mentioned that about magnesium because that's a perfect example. Because in my dream world, we get all of our nutrients from food. That's just the way it would be. But unfortunately, that's can be really hard to do with today's modern diet, and farming practices, and nutrient depleted soils. Magnesium is one for example that is involved in so many processes in the body. Our soils are so magnesium depleted that it can be really hard to get enough and most people are magnesium deficient. That's why we've been so excited to be working on our next supplement, which is magnesium.

I got so many questions when I asked her questions. Jobeth, "When is your magnesium available? Susan, "I'm wondering the same thing. I need to reorder my magnesium before too long." Carly, "Is your magnesium available yet?" Tony, "When will your magnesium be available?" Friends, it is coming soon. I did get questions about, because we've been partnering on this show historically with BiOptimizers that's a really good example of me being really concerned for brands before I had my own and still the importance of finding brands that you really, really trust. I know the founders of BiOptimizers. I've had them on the show multiple times. I felt really, really comfortable partnering with them. I know so many people have benefited from their supplements. It's really been a wonderful thing, because I got this question from Lizzie, for example. She says, "You use to advertise a magnesium. Do you still recommend it?" This is an example, where when I create with Scott and MD Logic, the AvalonX brand, basically, my goal is to look at the supplements that I'm currently taking. So, I was taking Magnesium Breakthrough by BiOptimizers. Find what's there, find what's working, and if I can at all improve on it in any way, do that. Yes, I still recommend BiOptimizers and the AvalonX magnesium that we are creating that I am so excited about. We're basically just going a step above with some things that I really wanted to fine tune. Really making sure they're no extra fillers that are in there.

There'll be less fillers than there are in BiOptimizers. We wanted to add in, Scott was talking about the role of people having issues processing certain like B vitamins, for example, and that can be a genetic thing. We wanted to put in cofactors for magnesium that takes that into account. We're using activated forms of B6 and manganese, which are cofactors in magnesium absorption. And then putting it in a glass bottle, because something that's really, really important to me is the health of not only our bodies, but the planet and I'm just really concerned with plastics in our environment, in our bodies, in the planet. Yes, your BiOptimizers magnesium, I'm not reneging on everything I said about that. I'm grateful to them for creating such an amazing product and I'm really excited to create my own manifestation of magnesium and the best way that I see possible. That was long. So, you have thoughts about that, Scott?

Scott Emmens: Yeah. Condensed that into this one sentence, which you basically did the same thing with serrapeptase that you did with magnesium and we worked with you to do that. How do we make this magnesium? It's really good, take it to insanely perfect level and that's what we did. If you like BiOptimizers, you're going to love AvalonX. And if you want to skip your BiOptimizers, you can certainly do that. But I promise you, this is going to be a tremendous magnesium. I think some of the surprises you're going to announce that are going to go along with that Melanie will just make it all the better. So, I won't spoil that for you.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so excited about everything in the future.

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Melanie Avalon: We are going back to those different pillars of foundational supplements. The nutritional ones, something like serrapeptase though, that's not a nutrition. That's an enzyme. That's taking a supplement, where it has it's like a verb. The other supplements are like nouns. The serrapeptase is like a verb, because it's doing something in your body. That's something where you don't have to really worry about tolerance or something like that, because it's doing an action that you are supporting your body with. I think the issue with tolerance and things like that comes in with supplements that are more stimulant related. You know caffeine, coffee, things like that or neurotropics, where you might be playing around with neurotransmitters, where there could be the potential for some downregulation of your brain's neurotransmitter system, that's where I think you might need to take into account rotating on and off. Thoughts about that?

Scott Emmens: Yeah, no, I agree completely. I think the area that I brought up where I rotate things on and off are the hormone products or detox products. I don't want to be on a detox product long term. Alpha-lipoic acid is great. But if you're on alpha-lipoic acid all the time, you're in a chronic state of detox and you might just be pushing a lot of things to float through your blood if you're not using a binder with it. There are things that are designed for a specific purpose and a specific timeframe. And then there are things like magnesium and serrapeptase that have specific reasons you're taking them that don't have any build up effect that you should take. A detoxifying agent like a colon cleanse, you're not going to take that on a regular basis or alpha-lipoic acid that's always detoxifying. You could become anemic, because you pull out too much of your iron, or copper, or zinc, for example.

In the hormones, I rotate, because if you overdo hormones like DHEA or Estro Detox, those can start having some odd effects that you don't want to have either. Those are the only ones I rotate really. If it's got a specific purpose, it's an essential nutrient that I know I'm not in getting my diet. I don't rotate that out and I don't see necessarily a rationale or reason to do so. But in the examples, you and I both gave, I think it makes perfect sense to rotate them out or pause them for a while.

Melanie Avalon: One more topic that it relates to all of this, but we got a lot of questions about taking into consideration the fasting and the eating window. Terry wants to know, "Best supplements to take on a fast versus an eating window." Amy said, "Best timing of supplements. Should it be while fasting, with food? If it's with food, is it before or after and how much? If it's with fasting, how long from the start of the fast to how long before breaking the fast?" Aaron wanted to know, "When to take supplements?" This might be in relation to the serrapeptase fasted or not. Jocelyn, "When best to take if you only have a five-hour eating window."

My thoughts on that is that, it was a type of supplement, where it is nutritional based. A lot of them can be taken in your eating window with food. I try to put everything that I can in the eating window into the eating window, because why not err on the side of keeping the fast as clean as possible. I take probiotics in the eating window. I know a lot of people take this fast, but I take them in the eating window. I really take most things in the eating window, unless it specifically needs to be fasted. So, that would be serrapeptase, which I think really enhances the fast. Something like-- I'm trying to think, what do I take? Oh, I take berberine fasted, as well as you can also take that before food. But yeah, Scott, you have thoughts on fasting versus eating?

Scott Emmens: Yes. I take most of my water-soluble vitamins and things that are liver supporting or detoxifying on a fasted state. My B vitamins, I'll take on a fasted state, because they're stimulating anyway. I usually take those in the morning. I will take my magnesium. Sometimes, I'll take it one in the morning along with maybe some zinc, although, that's not an optimal way to do that, because zinc can be a little upsetting on the stomach. So, you got to be careful. Certain liver things, I'll take. Milk thistle for example, and berberine. I'll combine those and take those on a fasted state. A lot of the water-soluble vitamins or vitamins that are specifically there to help detox or help with autophagy, I'll take those during my fasted state.

Things that are there that are antioxidants, that are fat soluble vitamins, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin K2, CoQ10, all of those I'm going to take with food. And then if I'm taking something like immunologic, which has a lot of different nutrients in there, I'll take that with food. And obviously, my digestive enzyme, I'm going to take with food as well. I'd say, if it's a water-soluble vitamin, that is going to be working alongside the fast and supporting the fasting or supporting detoxification. I'll take those in the fasted state, usually in the morning, or late morning, or early afternoon. And then I'll take all of my fat-soluble vitamins and other types of nutrients typically with my first meal of the day. And then with dinner, I'll take a few extra things like krill oil, and phosphatidylserine, and then I'll do two more magnesium before bed.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you mentioned the digestive enzymes, because that's definitely something where for example, I take HCl and digestive enzymes with my meals every night and I probably will be for life and that really helps me radically, and helps me absorb my food, it helps with any potential GI issues. I just feel like a better person taking them. I know people will say, "Oh, but maybe you're down regulating your natural production of enzymes." But I've looked into it, and I think it's debated a little bit, and I just know that I personally experienced so much benefit that I have no problem taking it every night.

Scott Emmens: I don't think there's any sufficient evidence to show that it downregulates your own acid production. But there is evidence to suggest that heartburn medicines will upregulate your acid production. Proton pump inhibitors, they have a history of studies that show that they have a conglomeration of various side effects. There's a rise in all-cause mortality, there's a rise in fractures, there's a rise in I think, even maybe-- Don't quote me on this. I might even say it, but there's rise in many disease factors of long-term use, not short-term use, but long-term use. And I was on those suckers for 15 years and I decided it was time to get off. I restarted researching like, "How do you get off of these acid blockers?" Because if you're taking acid blocker by virtue of that, you can't digest all your calcium properly. You can't digest your magnesium properly. Your body needs acid to break down your proteins properly, to get vitamin B12 properly, to get your minerals, especially properly. I decided I had to get off it and I started taking the digestive enzymes. This is about four or five years ago.

I wouldn't leave the house without my proton pump inhibitor. Because the heartburn was so bad. I literally was able within a month or two to get almost completely off. And within three months, I only needed those on rare occasions when I just really overdid it. It got to a point where even I didn't even need the digestive enzymes every single night. I only needed to take them with large meals, like, if I was eating dinner out, or having a large holiday meal, or tons of meat, or tons of fat and meat. It's the only time I really need them now, which tells me I didn't downregulate anything. In fact, my digestive system seems to be working better than it was when I was taking the proton pump inhibitors. Ironically enough, my best friend just came to visit me. I haven't seen him in two years since COVID and I was telling about the digestive enzymes last night. He goes, "I always get heartburn. Let me try one of those."

He had this massive meal, he took only just one of the digestive enzymes, and this morning he woke up he goes, "Dude, I have never slept so great without heartburn in my life." That was just his first time taking it. There're no question digestive enzymes are really important. We know as you age, your acid in your stomach begins to decline, your digestive enzymes begin to decline. So, I think that's one that you probably will be taking for life. But in terms of downregulating, I personally haven't seen it. In fact, my digestive system seems better than ever.

Melanie Avalon: That's definitely. Yeah, it'd been my experience, and what I've seen from a lot of our audience, and what I've seen just from my own research. I won't say anything in set in stone, but I'm very passionate about digestive enzymes and I'm very passionate about making things that I'm passionate about. I'll just leave it at that which actually speaks to maybe something that we could end with which is we got a lot of questions about other supplements. Shannon wanted to know about, "NMN recommendations," which was something that I had previously thought we were going to be making soon, but we ran into some issues with regulations surrounding that. Christina wanted to know about "Algae supplements." Linda wanted to know about, "Berberine," Nicole wanted to know about "Multivitamins," Carly wants to know about, "Collagen and fiber." So, the future of both AvalonX and MD Logic with these supplements, not sure what we want to say or what you want to say, Scott? Yeah, what would you like to say about just questions about future supplements?

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I'm comfortable answering those. I think you had told me there was a question about the algae and we be able to offer algae at a less expensive price and something like that.

Melanie Avalon: I'll read it. Christina said, "Is there any way you could offer algae supplements that are less expensive than what is available now?"

Scott Emmens: Ah, well, the answer to that is yes. We are working on three different USDA organic forms of algae. I'll leave it at that, but I think they are the ones that you're looking for, the packaging, they will not be tablets, they will actually be in a powdered form, and it'll be in a travel size, so you can take them on the road, you can just rip it open, pour it into your smoothie, no chewing necessary. We're pretty excited about that. They will be less expensive and you will get more total grams of algae per unit. I think you'll be happy with that. Expect that sometime in July, maybe a little sooner. In terms of berberine, how could we not do a berberine and that's going to be an AvalonX product and that is likely not too far off from the magnesium, which don't hold us to this date, but we think we're going to launch in late May. We're pretty confident, it will be ready for shipping sometime in late May and we're also extremely confident. You're going to love the formula for all the reasons Melanie mentioned.

In terms of collagen, that one I will definitely answer. We are literally about to launch an MD Logic marine collagen sustainably wild caught, sustainably caught white fish that is tested for all types of toxins and mold, etc. Also tested to make sure that it is in fact pure fish marine collagen. It is top tier marine collagen. It is highly dissolvable. So, it's not going to cake up. It is flavorless. But what we added to it, which is very important, there are small amounts of the collagen cofactors. What folks may or may not know that are collagen junkies like I am is that, in order for your body to utilize the collagen that you're taking in, you have to have copper, zinc, vitamin A, C, and manganese. Those are those five.

Now, there are others, but those five are absolutely essential for your body to be able to convert the collagen you intake, because the collagen peptides we all drink in our coffee, or OJ, or whatever we put it in, those collagen peptides are essentially broken down collagen. It's broken down into its amino acids. Your body then has to reconstitute those amino acids from the collagen into functional elastic or elastin skin. To do that, it's either got to turn into tendons, or skin, or cartilage, or whatever it's turning that collagen you've eaten into. But every time it does that, it requires molecules of copper, zinc, manganese, and vitamin A and vitamin C is actually one of the most important to create collagen. Without that, without those cofactors, to create the enzymatic processes, your body literally can't reconstruct that collagen. If it does it can't do it in an efficient way, where the collagen is meeting the needs that the body wants. If we added those cofactors, plus we added biotin for hair, skin and nails, because collagen by itself without biotin is a great ingredient.

But again, you need that biotin for your body to really grow that hair. We've created a collagen that gives you just the right amounts and the right proportions of these cofactors all in one minus the manganese, because manganese tastes horrible. You've got to flavor this collagen with the biotin in it that you can put in your coffee or wherever. We're super excited about that. MD Logic Health is going to be launching that soon. If you're looking to get it, please sign up to MD Logic Health. I'm sure Melanie can put something in the show notes, Melanie, if that's possible. So, in summary, collagens are not all created equal. You definitely want to have those cofactors in your collagen to get the most of it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. For listeners, I know a lot of you guys have been wanting a collagen supplement. When I say that the person you want to trust with this collagen is Scott Emmens at MD Logic. The person that you want to trust with this collagen is Scott Emmens at MD Logic. He has been telling me about this collagen for so long and is so excited about it. When people, who have the knowledge, and the science, and the savviness get really excited about something, that's when you get really amazing products that you want. I'm just so thrilled, Scott that you are creating this and I can't wait for listeners to try it. Information because I know people are probably really excited and want all this right now. The things that are not available, you need to get on my supplement email list, because that's where I'm going to be sending the emails to let you know when these products launch. You can always, of course be checking mdlogichealth.com. But if you want to get the latest and know when it's coming, and get it before it sells out, because there's always the potential with first runs that things sell out, get on my email list. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. A-V-A-L-O-N-X dot US slash emaillist. So, get on that right now.

And then I do have a coupon code for listeners, a discount code, and this code will work on both AvalonX supplements, which right now, I just have the serrapeptase, but the magnesium will be coming soon. Although, the launch special for magnesium will be pretty amazing. The code will probably not work on the initial launch of any new supplement, but it will after the launch. The serrapeptase and then also, you can use this code sitewide at mdlogichealth.com. They have so many supplements. Definitely, definitely go check out all the supplements. And again, we talked about this earlier, but some of those supplements do have things like stearates and such, which, may or may not be a problem for you. It's really an individual case by case basis. But in general, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Scott.

Scott Emmens: Yes. We're working on a few major projects right now. The big one is taking our core product line-- I mentioned this earlier, taking our core product line and getting the stearates and palmitates out. One of your listeners had a question about, "If you're taking seven different supplements of magnesium stearate, at what point does it become a problem, etc.?" The FDA says 2,500 milligrams. You have to take fistfuls of vitamins. Literally, fistfuls to hit that amount, because there's very little in any of these products individually. But I also agree with you, Melanie. If you can take it out, why not take it out. That's what we're trying to do. But as I alluded to before, so, for example, every time you change a formula, you need a specific anti-caking for that particular blend of formula. For example, with your serrapeptase, we used a specific MCT. With the magnesium, we're using different kind of organic MCTs. And then for the berberine, we had to use a very specific, very pricey product for the anti-caking that's found in nature. We've got these very natural safe "anti-caking agents," they're almost really not even anti-caking. They're really just a way to make sure the flow happens, which is why we also have to make your products in small batches, which is a good thing, because then the quality control, again, is even higher on those products.

What we're doing is, we're looking at each one of our products at MD Logic Health to say, "How can we get the stearate and palmitate out and what's the proper ingredients or ingredients that are more natural and that will help the product with either absorption, or long lasting, or how can it benefit besides just not being a stearate?" Each one of those top five products and replace the stearates wherever possible and that will take some time, but that's our long-term vision to be as clean as we can. We're working on sustainable packaging in two different forms and that probably won't happen till 2023. But when it does, we're going to be very excited to be able to promote that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Those are all really, really exciting things. I'm personally so, so excited. But even before that, like I said, the supplements at MD Logic Health are amazing. Definitely check out that whole catalog. I don't know if I got to saying this, but that coupon code MELANIEAVALON will not only get you 10% off at avalonx.us but also at mdlogichealth.com. So, super, super amazing. This has been so amazing. We've got through a lot of stuff.

Scott Emmens: We did. There's one last question that I would like to answer, because I'm obsessed with mitochondria and Shannon asked about "The NMN and any recommendations for mitochondria?" And I'll bet you'll have some, too.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Shannon wants to know, "NMN recommendations and any specific mitochondrial support," Scott.

Scott Emmens: I'm going to give you five supplements and two things to do. Supplement wise, copper between two and four milligrams a day, Vitamin A and if you listen to the copper book, I think it's called copper Cu-RE. It'll explain why copper is so important for your mitochondrial health and why vitamin A is so important for that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And to interject really quickly for listeners, I'm actually interviewing that author His name is Morley Robbins. It's called Cu-RE, spelled Cu dash RE and the Cu is like copper. Cu-RE Your Fatigue: The Root Cause and How To Fix It On Your Own. So, it's a whiles away, end of 2022, but I will be interviewing him on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Okay, so, sorry to interrupt. What were the other supplements?

Scott Emmens: I would just say, do not miss that interview. It will blow you away. I've been taking copper now for a couple of months and it has made a remarkable difference in my stamina. It's remarkable. Next, CoQ10, krill oil, melatonin, magnesium, and then PPQ is a question mark. I'm not sure just exactly how effective that one is.

Melanie Avalon: PQQ?

Scott Emmens: I think it's PQQ. Yeah. What did I say? PPQ? Then trans-resveratrol is probably a good one to do. Those are some of the core mitochondrial support nutrients I take on a pretty regular basis. And then proven mitochondrial support is red light therapy and deliberate cold exposure. Primarily, when I say cold exposure in a tub of very cold water about 50 degrees, obviously, don't do that if you have a heart condition, talk to your physician. Take your time, start with cold showers, work up to it. It takes a while. I was telling Melanie the other day. If I could only have one single bio hack, it would be cold immersion.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I think those are great recommendations. I do personally love NMN. I currently take another brand. I hope someday I can make my own or an NR, just because that whole industry, that whole world, I think there's a lot of benefit there, but it's really sketchy. It's really hard to figure out which brand to take. People ask me all the time if I recommend a brand and I don't, because I just don't know. But for mitochondrial support, I'm a big fan of that. I like the ones you mentioned. I don't supplement with resveratrol. I actually just try to get it from wine. I'm on the fence about my thoughts about supplementation with it, but I know there's like science behind it, so, I can see why you think that. CoQ10 is definitely a good one. But yeah, the lifestyle things, I love, love, love. So, Scott does his ice baths, I do my daily cryotherapy, which just makes me feel like a million bucks. I really, really recommend that. And again, red light therapy is amazing for mitochondrial health, even just the lifestyle things that we practice like fasting here on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I think fasting can be one of the best things that you can do for your mitochondria.

Scott Emmens: Fasting is a tremendous mitochondrial support.

Melanie Avalon: Which is perfect. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Scott, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so, so much for reaching out to me like a year ago and I'm just so grateful, and thrilled for how everything has manifested, and I'm so passionate about this journey that we're on and the future of everything that we're doing. What's really exciting and gratifying is, it's not just me and you. I see this manifest and all the listeners and they get to try the supplements and report back. I get testimonials and feedback daily, literally, daily from people, who have tried the serrapeptase, for example, and just experienced amazing benefits. So, I'm really excited. You're such a wealth of knowledge. I'm sure listeners got a lot out of this. I'm really excited to see what's in the future.

Scott Emmens: Well, thank you so much, Melanie. It's just a pleasure working with you and your audience is tremendous. They're always giving extra little tidbits of health. They're giving each other guidance and advice of what's working for them. They're super supportive of you and of each other. They ask really intelligent questions and it's great to see how engaged they are. They've really helped us be successful and I love working with you. Trust me, folks, when I say, when Melanie says, she wants it clean, she means clean and she goes out of her way to make sure she's looking at every single ingredient all the way down to every ingredient within each capsule, and you guys are getting the absolute best products possible when you're buying MD Logic or AvalonX. There's no question about it. She's just done a tremendous job and I think you're going to love the products to follow.

Melanie Avalon: Yay. I'm so happy. Well, again, for listeners, the show notes for today's episode, which you'll definitely want to check out, we'll put links to everything there. ifpodcast.com/episode265. To get on the email list, to get the updates about all of the future supplements, definitely get on that, avalonx.us/emaillist, to get the serrapeptase supplement, which is live now that's at avalon.us. You can save 10% on that serrapeptase or anything at MD Logic Health with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. I didn't mention this, yet. You can save 15% on serrapeptase, if you get a subscription. That's an amazing way to get a super discount and also help with sustainability, because you're reducing shipping, because you actually get three bottles at once at that lower price every four months. That's more sustainable for the planet as well. All of that is at avalonx.us, and there will be a full transcript, and all of the notes in the show notes.

This has been absolutely wonderful. Normally, I say to my cohost, I'll talk to you next week. But Scott, I talk to you pretty much every day. So, I will talk to you very soon.

Scott Emmens: Sounds great. Thank you, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Scott Emmens: Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

Everyday Wellness with Cynthia Thurlow

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Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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May 08

Episode 264: A Bittersweet Announcement! An Exciting Announcement! Serrapeptase Timing, Inflammation, IBS, Bloating, Diet Mentality, Junk Food, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #144 - Bill Tancer (Signos)

Welcome to Episode 264 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

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Listener Q&A: layla - AvalonX timing/B12/vegetarian

Frequently Asked Questions

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #46 - Dr. Will Cole

What is an Elimination Diet and Why Should You Do One?

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Listener Q&A: Julie - Delaying certain foods

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 264 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody, and welcome this is Episode number 264 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And [giggles] before I say, how are you today, Gin, so, people I think we might have announced this before this episode airs. So, people might be familiar, today is a special, sad--

Gin Stephens: It's bittersweet, right? Is that the right word for it?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The people might have heard about it on as of the episode comes out on maybe Instagram, or in your Facebook group, or in my group, but for some people who just only listen, this might be the first time they're going to hear it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, Gin--

Gin Stephens: I know. We haven't rehearsed this, we haven't talked about it.

Melanie Avalon: Normally, I'm a planner. So, normally, I have everything planned out. But Gin will be leaving the podcast.

Gin Stephens: Yep, this is my last episode. This is the last one and it isn't anything, like, there's not a giant reason. All of a sudden it felt it was time for me to go in a different direction and that's all. I've loved this podcast. If you listened last week, we were reflecting on. We already knew. We've been talking about this. Gosh, it's been about a month that we've been talking about it and planning for the transition?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Probably.

Gin Stephens: Probably. Maybe even a little bit longer than that. But reflecting on five years, so, last week talking about the five years, and all the positives, and how grateful I am for this experience for all the listeners, whether you've been there since 2017 or whether this is the first time you've listened to everyone in between, I'm grateful for every minute of this podcast and for everything for you, Melanie. It's funny and I know we've talked about how we met when you came into the Facebook group. I think we talked about that last week. But the universe works in a mysterious way. The very week before you popped into the group asking, "If anyone wanted to start a podcast?" Do you remember that the very week before was the first time I'd ever been a guest on a podcast? Do you remember me telling you that story?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I had never been a guest on anybody's podcast before. I didn't listen to podcasts, which everyone knows. Someone, who had been in my Facebook group had started a podcast. I can't even remember the name of that podcast. I think it was political-- I don't even know. But he's like, "Would you talk about fasting?" I'm like, "Sure, why not." It went really, really well. I remember, I was talking to my sister and I'm like, "I'm good at this. I wonder if I could do a podcast?" Then like, "Yeah, I didn't know how to do a podcast." And the very next week, you popped in there asking, "If anyone wanted to cohost a podcast?" It felt divine intervention and I wouldn't have Intermittent Fasting Stories, we wouldn't have Life Lessons. If it hadn't been for you showing up that day, I might think that maybe one day I would have done it, but I didn't know enough about doing a podcast. I don't think I would have. So, I owe it all to you and the divine timing of you popping in there that day.

Melanie Avalon: It's so crazy. For me, I had been wanting to do a podcast for years, literally, probably, years, really years. I've probably been wanting to do a podcast since I started listening to podcasts in middle school.

Gin Stephens: I remember you saying that. You've said that before. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I wanted to do an Intermittent Fasting Podcast specifically, probably. We launched this in 2017, right? Probably, since 2014 or so I'd wanted to do this. I am so, so grateful as well, because what I just said, wanting to do this, what manifest is literally, the dream manifestation of what I'd always hoped for and I don't know, but I don't know if that would have been possible without you. I'm so grateful for our friendship and what we've created in five years.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, all of that. Me, too. All of it.

Melanie Avalon: It's been really, really wonderful. Oh, I feel it's been for both of us. It really launched both of us into the social media world more and everything that we're doing now, not that it's due to this at all, but this was definitely, at least for me a catalyst for so many things.

Gin Stephens: Well, it was huge. It was huge, because getting our message out there, mine and yours., the podcast, people found us all different ways. Some people found us through the Facebook groups, some people found us through maybe they read What When Wine or Delay, Don’t Deny, or Fast. Feast. Repeat., or maybe they found us through this podcast. But it all works together. Maybe they found us on Instagram, although, probably not me. [laughs] They probably didn't find me on Instagram. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Not me, not me in the beginning. [giggles]

Gin Stephens: Here I am. Here's my cat. [laughs] Anyway, it all just really worked together, and it's just been a beautiful journey, and I'm really, really grateful for it. Like I said, so, if anybody who's listening in and you're sad, don't be sad. I'm not going anywhere in the world. I'm still going to be everywhere I am right now. If you want to follow the ins and outs of my life, it's not going to be Instagram, because that's-- I'm pretty boring there. But the Life Lessons Podcast every Wednesday, I'll still be talking to share. If you're not a Life Lessons listener, you might like it. It's not about fasting. We really love talking about all the different topics on that show. Just like I know you love the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, where you get to talk about all different things. It's fun to explore different topics, sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think and also just stepping back, because both of us were doing so many things. I think for this show it was just a moment. With you and everything that you're doing, it just didn't really line up with everything that you were doing moving forward. I don't want to speak for you.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that's a good way of saying it. Like I said, it just felt like it was time to go in a different direction. I've always been a very intuitive kind, I make my decisions. I think about something, but then it just feels right. All of a sudden, it just felt right. I don't know. It's hard to explain. But it doesn't take away from how amazing this journey has been with this podcast and how grateful I am. Like I said to the audience, to you, to our wonderful assistants, who make it happen week after week behind the scenes, I'm grateful for every little bit of it. Everything we've learned, we've learned a lot along the way.

Melanie Avalon: What's really crazy is, I don't know if I ever mentioned this publicly on the show, but when we started, I just moved to Atlanta, too, I think, right?

Gin Stephens: Maybe so.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I moved to Atlanta in 2014.

Gin Stephens: Okay. You might have been just about to move back to LA.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's right.

Gin Stephens: So, it was Atlanta, LA, back to Atlanta.

Melanie Avalon: That's correct. Well, the guy I had been dating in LA before moving to Atlanta was an author and a podcaster. So, he was my mentor and able to tell me basically exactly what to do. But it's confused. If you haven't done it before, it's just confusing.

Gin Stephens: It's so confusing. I bought the book, Podcasting For Dummies when I was going to start Intermittent Fasting Stories, because even though, I had been a cohost with you on this one for over a year at that point, I didn't know how to do all the stuff you did. I didn't know how to edit, I didn't know how to-- Because you were doing all of that. I didn't know anything or how do you upload it? What's the host? I don't know. I got the book, Podcasting For Dummies and I'm like, "I'm so dumb. I can't even understand it from this book." So, that was when I was like, "Wait, I can hire a company" and that's how I ended up with resonate recordings. They helped me. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah, because what's funny about it, so, I think every other platform like YouTube, Instagram, you go into a platform and you create the content within the platform. It's like a one-stop shop. Podcasting, for those who are not familiar, it's very vague. [giggles] There're lots of hosts and then you have this feed that you submit to the distribution channels, but it automatically submits, but not. [laughs] It's weird.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I'm like, "I don't even know." The editing, I'm like, "I don't know how to edit audio. I don't think I'd be good at that." I mean, maybe I would. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, because I was at the beginning, I was editing it.

Gin Stephens: All of it. You did all it for a long time.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my gosh. [giggles] If listeners are curious, I was so neurotic in the very beginning, because we released our first few episodes, and I would go read iTunes reviews, and people would be nitpicking things, making comments about my voice or my laugh. I think I probably told you this, Gin. I don't know. Did tell you what I was doing with my laugh?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: I went through a period in the beginning. Somebody wrote a comment about how they didn't like my laugh. So, I would edit out my laugh.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my gosh, what a jerk. Who said that? Whoever doesn't like your laugh, I don't like their laugh.

Melanie Avalon: They're like, "it makes her sound like a valley girl or something." I'm very grateful. I finally reached the point, where it was like--

Gin Stephens: If you don't like the laugh, pick a different podcast, buddy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm just going to be me.

Gin Stephens: This is my laugh. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I remember at one point, I don't know if it was that show or for my other show, somebody emailed me to tell me that-- What did they say? They said that, it might have also been about my laugh. It was something about-- something I do after I ask a question to guests, I do something, and they were like, I don't know if they were saying it out of kindness, but he basically said, "I know you're a really strong, intelligent woman, but you do this thing that makes you sound like not intelligent." I answered her very nicely. But that was the moment where I was like, "I can't be in my head while I'm recording with somebody thinking about how I'm coming off. I just have to be there."

Gin Stephens: Yeah. 100%.

Melanie Avalon: You learn a lot.

Gin Stephens: You do learn a lot. And that's why I've never been a review reader. [laughs] I don't read them, because I'm like, "You know who Glennon Doyle is."

Melanie Avalon: What did they write?

Gin Stephens: She had a blog called "Momastery" or something that I read. It was a long time ago, and she is a blogger, and now she has a podcast, and she put something out that-- It was a blog post and it was early in the days of when I had just released Delay, Don't Deny, and I used to read all my reviews, and they would hurt my feelings. When someone then, I would try to answer them. Someone said, Delay, Don't Deny was plagiarized. I'm like, "What in the world?" Then somebody else was like, " Delay, Don't Deny is just the squirrels memoir." I'm like, "How can it be plagiarized and just my memoir?" That doesn't even make sense. I have a doctorate. I wrote a dissertation. I know how to not plagiarize. There's nothing plagiarized there. Anyway, I would get mad at the reviews when they would say things that were clearly not true.

This blog post by Glennon Doyle, she talked about how it is not our responsibility to follow our art around in the world and defend it. This is for any creator, anyone who's creating anything. She wrote it to a literal artist, who put art out in the world, and had a website with her art, and people would criticize or critique her art, and then the artist would get her feelings hurt and whatever. She's like, "No, you create the art, you put it out there, your part is done. It is not yours--" But the way she said it, "It is not your responsibility to babysit your art and follow it around the world and defend it." I thought, "Well, there you go."

Melanie Avalon: I can also apply to the artist, I think.

Gin Stephens: You don't have to defend yourself.

Melanie Avalon: Part of the art? Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Oh, right. Exactly. Yeah. But you don't have to defend it. It is what it is. Our art, our words, our writing, it is what it is, and it'll either resonate with you or it won't, and that is not my responsibility. I did the best, I could I put it out there.

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's been my philosophy. Literally, Glennon Doyle, I don't know if she knows I exist, but I know she exists and that really shaped my resilience when it came to not even needing to read a review.

Melanie Avalon: The thing that really shaped or it's more been more recent, but I had Bill Tancer on the Biohacking Podcast, and he wrote a book called Everyone's a Critic. If anybody has created anything, where they are dealing with reviews, I highly, highly suggest reading that book. It's an entire book about reviews and how actually negative reviews can actually help. You actually want some negative reviews, if you have a collection of reviews for something. It makes people less suspicious of the reviews, it makes people more trusting. He goes into the nuances, which you can probably guess this, Gin. So, the grammar of the reviews affects things.

Gin Stephens: Well, I feel if it's got really poor grammar, you might not take it as seriously. Is that true or is it the opposite, if that's true?

Melanie Avalon: If there are negative reviews that are poor grammar and things like that, people dismiss them and think they're spam. It makes them more likely to trust the entirety of the reviews, because they know they're negative reviews, but then they disregard the negative reviews, so, it actually helps. That's just one of the many fun facts in his book. Actually, speaking of reviews, they do really, really help and we have something exciting that ties this all together, because I do want to tell listeners about now, they're probably wondering--

Gin Stephens: What's going to happen? We did notice we didn't say we are ending the podcast. This is the last episode. We did not say that, because it's not. It's just my last episode as cohost.

Melanie Avalon: When Gin and I were discussing this, we decided that I would continue with the show. Obviously, I don't want to have the show by myself. I was looking for a cohost and I'm really, really excited and really grateful because we have a wonderful cohost coming on board, and listeners are probably-- I bet a lot of listeners are probably very familiar with her, already.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've had her on my show twice. How many times has she been on your show?

Melanie Avalon: Twice.

Gin Stephens: See. And I've met her in person.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you have. I've done an IG Live with her, she's very active in my groups. I want to play the guessing game with the audience, but I can't, as they can't talk back. [giggles]

Gin Stephens: I will tell you this. This is funny. I have a group of friends. They were moderators. It's just a few of them. We were the ones who were using the Biosense at the same time back in the day. Whenever that was, we were a little Biosense group, we were talking about it, but now, we're just talking about stuff. It's not even called Biosense anymore. But I said, "Y'all, I'm leaving the podcast." I was wanted to like-- Oh, no, because one of them very much listens to this podcast and she was mentioning something she'd heard on it. I'm like, "Well, I'm leaving it" and she said-- I'm like, "There's going to be a new cohost, but I can't tell you." I haven't told them who it was. But she guessed this person. She said, "I think it's going to be--" And then she said it. I'm like, "I can't tell you. [laughs] You'll just have to wait." Anyway. But she guessed the right person. So, in the guessing game, no one guessed anybody else, but it was this person was guessed.

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting is, I had spoken with a few friends when I was brainstorming, trying to think of who to bring on and two people, three people, I didn't get any other suggestions. But at least two people specifically suggested this person before I even said anything. I was like, "Oh, that's maybe a sign."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, oh, I think it is totally a sign.

Melanie Avalon: The new cohost will be, Cynthia Thurlow. For listeners, who have not met her yet, you will be meeting her. I'll tell you that the upcoming schedule for everything. But she is the author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation, a book that just came out that we have talked about actually a lot on this show. It's a fabulous intermittent fasting book, it's specifically geared towards women, and specifically, their hormones, and transitions like perimenopause and menopause. That's a really, really wonderful work. She actually became famous in the intermittent fasting world, because I would say that she's famous in the intermittent fasting world. She had a TED talk in May of 2019 called Intermittent Fasting Transformational Technique and it's had over 10 million views, and that really launched her into the whole IF world. She's a Nurse Practitioner. That's going to be really exciting for the show. Gin and I get a lot of more medical questions and we can give our opinions, but we're not doctors. She literally is in that vein. So, none of this is to say that, this is any better than what I have done. It's just going to be different. I'm really, really excited. To keep everything, like I said, bring everything full circle, so Gin found the other day, I am so excited. Again, I want to play the guessing game, but they can't talk back. She found the first episode-- the missing first episode for this show.

Gin Stephens: And it's funny. It was in my email. I sorted my email between the two of us. I was like, in the intermittent fasting email box that I've got and I sorted it from oldest to newest, because I wanted to look back and I was actually looking for something else. I was looking for a different document and apparently, [laughs] Melanie had sent me the audio file for Episode 1 after she edited it for me to listen to and there it was. I'm like, "What?"

Melanie Avalon: That is so crazy.

Gin Stephens: I didn't know I had that in my email. I didn't even know, I mean, email from 2017.

Melanie Avalon: Gin's excited when she emailed me and texted me at the same time to check my email. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I forwarded it.

Melanie Avalon: I know that will be very, very exciting for listeners, because we get questions all the time about the mysterious missing Episode number 1, which I started listening to it. Actually, need to finish listening to it. I told you this already, Gin, but we sound so young. I think I sound so much younger. Did you listen back?

Gin Stephens: I did. I listened to it. I didn't listen to the whole thing. I just listen to a little bit of it.

Melanie Avalon: It's like how Taylor Swift rerecording all of her music. You can tell her voice is older. You can hear it in the voice. In any case, we're trying to decide what to do with it. We're thinking of releasing it as an episode, but instead, we thought we would give it to the people who really, really want it, and also help support the show with reviews and the transition. If you would like to receive and listen to the mysterious missing Episode number 1, the first episode of this show, super easy. What you can do is, if you've written a review for the show The Intermittent Fasting Podcast on iTunes, take a screenshot of that. If you've already written one, you just need to update it, because you can go and update your review to include this one piece of criteria, which I'm about to tell you or you can write a new review and include this one piece of criteria that I'm about to tell you, and take a screenshot of that, and email it to us.

What we'd love to see in the review is what you are looking forward to with Cynthia on board, what you'd like to learn from her, what you're excited about. We just would love to hear your thoughts on that. That will help in so many ways. It will help us see, what you're thinking with where the show is headed, so we can incorporate that into the show. It'll help welcome Cynthia, because she's definitely coming on to, we've had the show for five years. That's a big transition. Those reviews really do help so much and then it helps us thank you for the views and then you guys get to listen to the series Episode number 1 will actually directly email it to you. So, to do that, send a screenshot of your updated old review or your new review to questions@ifpodcast.com and just make the subject: "iTunes review." Thank you in advance.

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Melanie Avalon: Just speaking of gratitude and Gin had mentioned our assistance, we do have a really, really wonderful team. It's not just me and Gin. I think that's another misconception about podcasts, Gin, that not that they're not a lot of work, but I don't think people realize that--

Gin Stephens: Oh, there's a ton of details, a ton of them.

Melanie Avalon: It's a job.

Gin Stephens: So much to do. You have to check each episode. Someone has to listen to the whole thing after it's been edited to make sure that there's not anything weird. For example, the most recent episode of Intermittent Fasting Stories that I have someone who listens to them and writes the show notes, there was some weird noise at a certain point in it. I had to send it back to the editor team and say, "At this exact point, you got to take this weird noise out." That's time, it takes so much time all these things from uploading, writing the show notes to everything.

Melanie Avalon: This show goes through three check stages. It goes to our main editors, who edit it altogether and add in the ads and stuff and then it goes to our show note creator Brianna. She edits a little bit more, and make show notes, and then it goes to Tamara, who listens to it for what Gin just said to make sure that nothing slipped through. We also have on our team, our assistant, Sharon and she actually just coauthored a book with Nancy. And I should have asked her how Nancy says her last name. Nancy DuCharme or DuCharme. It's D-U-C-H-A-R-M-E. Oh, my goodness. Sharon had sent me this book. It's called The Lifechanger Cancer-Fighting Cookbook: Learn How to Improve the Odds for a Full Recovery Using This Keto Based Program. I started reading it last night, because I wanted to talk about it on the show and promote it on all my socials. It blew me away. It's incredible. If you have cancer, if you have friends or family with cancer, or if you just want to learn more about cancer, this book, I'm so, so impressed and grateful with what they've created. It's very scientific, very nuanced. It dives really deep into the mechanics of cancer, things that affect it, things like HDAC inhibitors, and genetics, and ketones, and specifically, how a ketogenic diet can be a modality and fighting against cancer, because Nancy's hypothesis is that, when you treat cancer with just one modality, so just chemotherapy or something like that, then there's the potential that cancer can adapt to that and actually grow stronger that it can possibly be better to attack it from multiple avenues.

It was interesting because I'd actually just been listening to, I don't know if it was a Peter Attia episode or something. And the person there was talking about the same concept. She talks about the importance of diet and making sure that you're following a diet that is constantly supporting, you're fighting cancer. And this is a cookbook, because she has another book called Lifechanger: How to Starve Cancer Using Metabolic Strategies & Deep Therapeutic Ketosis. That's the deeper dive into the science of all of it. This is her follow-up cookbook, which like I said, approachably and briefly recaps the science, and the reasoning, and the game plan, and then it has the recipes created by Sharon, which just look amazing. Definitely, definitely get this book. I cannot recommend it enough. We will put a link to in the show notes. Congrats, Sharon and Nancy. You've done a really, really wonderful, beautiful job. I did want to plug that. So, we were debating on, if we were going to do anything else "special for this episode," but we decided just have our normal episode per usual.

Gin Stephens: Although, I will say, there was one that I was like, "Hey, let's leave that one for Cynthia" [laughs] already. We all have our areas of expertise and that's the beauty of it. We do not all have to be experts on the same exact things.

Melanie Avalon: This is true.

Gin Stephens: All right. Our first question is from Leila, and Leila, she is actually the person who guessed it was going to be Cynthia.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: Ah-huh. She's in that group. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow, this was meant to be.

Gin Stephens: It's not funny. That is a coincidence that wasn't planned at all. This question literally just came in. You can tell when I read it, but it just came in. The subject is: "AvalonX timing, B12, vegetarian." Leila says, "Good morning, lovely ladies. I have a question about AvalonX serrapeptase, B12, and vegetarianism. I've been fasting for three years, April 6th Is my fastaversary." Hooray. "My fast links have run the gamut over that time. I've done lots of window timings and fast links, including a couple month long rounds of ADF and I've settled into 24 fairly nicely at this point with some longer fasts sprinkled throughout every once in a while. At my lowest weight, I was 157 pounds. I'm 5'4". While that's not my ideal size, yet, it is a significant loss. As I started at 272 pounds with deadly inflammatory markers and was always so tired, I doze off on my commute home, and could never enjoy evenings with my sons, because I would need to go to bed." I'm going to say something about Leila here. I've been following her progress. She actually came on Intermittent Fasting Stories a long time ago. But she is just solid muscle.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow, really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, she is. She is very, very strong and even at 5'4", you would never guess in a minute, she reveals that she's weighed in at 164, but she is just solid muscle. She's a great example of body re-composition, and how you can be lean and very, very muscular, and the scale doesn't reflect that change in body composition. Anyway, I just have to throw that out there. She said, "Now, I have boundless energy, run nearly every day, and I'm getting ready to begin a weightlifting program." She's always done lots of stuff in to build muscle. I know that about her. She said, "I've had a bit of stress recently. My mother is in her early 60s and has dementia so badly. She's in a nursing home already, and I've had to take conservatorship over her, and I'm doing the same for one of my adult sons, who has a brain injury. I weighed in this morning at 164 pounds. I can feel the thickness in my middle, so I'm attributing it to stress and increased cortisol at this point, and just giving myself grace.

My question is on supplement timing. I am a morning eater. I usually wake around 4 AM, have a glass of water with one AvalonX serrapeptase, and then drink my black coffee. First question. Is it okay to have a cup of black coffee within minutes of taking the serrapeptase? I know the supplement is coded in a way that makes it open in the intestines and I wonder if I'm speeding up the opening before it reaches my intestines by drinking coffee with it." Do you want to just answer that first?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. This is a great question. And also, I'm glad she brought this up, because it's something to clarify, because I've been talking historically a lot. Backtracking really quickly. Serrapeptase is my first supplement that I launched with my AvalonX line with MD Logic. It's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state, it breaks down problematic proteins. It can really help your body with anything, where there is your body responding to these problematic proteins. That's why it can help clear allergies, reduce brain fog, enhance wound healing, help reduce inflammation. Studies have shown it may reduce even cholesterol and amyloid plaque. Serrapeptase is not the same thing as nattokinase, but that's another enzyme that people often take that's very similar and I was reading a book last night. Oh, I think Gin I told you, did I tell you that I actually, finally booked the Fiber Fueled, guy?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love him. Will, whose last name I can't pronounce. It starts with a B. It's long and has a W and Z. [laughs] I don’t know. I love him, though. He's also now on the board of ZOE. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: That's actually how I was able to lock him down.

Gin Stephens: And he lives in Charleston? I'm a huge fan of his. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, cool. Yeah, I'm really excited to interview him. Yeah, I was thinking of you, because I remember you're a huge fan of his book. He was talking about nattokinase in his book and he was pointing out how nattokinase has all of these anti-inflammatory, anti-hypertensive, cholesterol reducing, all of these different things. He was saying it was-- and he listed all these pharmaceuticals. I'm not saying serrapeptase is a pharmaceutical, but he was saying how nattokinase was a statin, and aspirin, and heparin, and all these different things all in one, which is an interesting way to think about it. But in any case, so, back to serrapeptase, which actually is appropriate that we're talking about that, because that was also one of the other uncanny, weird things that Gin and I connected on in the beginning. What are the odds Gin that--?

Gin Stephens: Well, I know. One person recommended it to me when I was talking about having fibroids. I think this is in my very first Facebook group I mentioned it, and it was just really there were just a few of us in there, and we were talking about personal stuff before the group got big, and she's like, "Oh, serrapeptase helps with fibroids." I'm like, "Oh, I'd never even heard of it." So, I'm like, "Well, let me try it" and I started taking it.

Melanie Avalon: And what's crazy as Gin was self-proclaimed like, not big on supplements, where me, I was into all the biohacking and lots of supplements, but it was my one go-to supplement that I've been probably taking the longest, and it was one of the only, if the only supplement that Gin was taking. I think I remember the moment on the podcast when we realized that, where I mentioned it. I remember I was sitting. It's crazy. In any case, the thing that needed to clear up was, I have been saying that the serrapeptase needed an enteric coating to reach the small intestine, so that it can properly be absorbed, because it is a very delicate enzyme and it will be destroyed in the stomach acid and that is correct. The caveat is that, enteric coatings, because you have two options. You can use an enteric coating or you can use an acid resistant capsule. Enteric coatings often have problematic plastics and things in them that you don't want. I promise you, when you look at your supplement, if it says enteric coating, it normally doesn't say what the enteric coating is made out of. So, I avoid enteric coatings and our AvalonX uses an acid resistant capsule. But to answer your question, Leila, coffee is completely fine. So, coffee is actually-- Oh, this is a good question for you, Gin. Do you know the pH of coffee?

Gin Stephens: I cannot remember which are higher, higher acids or bases. I know seven is the pH of water. I'm going to guess it's going to be either direction. I can't remember which way is acid, which way is base. But I'm going to say it's either a 5 or an 8.

Melanie Avalon: So, higher numbers are bases, lower numbers are more acidic.

Gin Stephens: That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't certain. So, then I'm going to guess that it is a six, but I could be totally wrong. That's just my hunch.

Melanie Avalon: You're closer before to a five. You said five the first time. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's what I meant.

Melanie Avalon: You're actually closer than me. I actually thought it was going to be more acidic. I thought it was going to be a 4 or 3.

Gin Stephens: Well, because we tend to think things are way worse than they are. Everyone's like, "Oh my God, coffee. It's so acidic" and I'm like, "It's not really that bad."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Even by itself, since the serrapeptase is in an acid resistant capsule, the coffee, because it is acidic, it's actually going to make the capsule not break down. Then on top of that, once your stomach acid, which is much more acidic, your stomach acid is around a pH of 3. When you take the serrapeptase with the coffee and your stomach acid, it will actually keep the capsule from breaking down and then when it reaches the small intestine, which is alkaline, it will open up there. So, you're good. You're good. Awesome.

Gin Stephens: All right. You ready for me to keep reading?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: All right. "In addition to serrapeptase, I also take a vegan B12 supplement. The brand is Live Conscious and it is 100% methylcobalamin." I don't know how you say that. Can you say that, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Methylcobalamin.

Gin Stephens: There you go. I've never heard anybody say that. But when you said it, that sounded just right. I'm just going to leave it there. B12, 5,000 micrograms per one milliliter. Leila, thank you for making me say all these hard things. [laughs] "The ingredients are water, glycerin, and organic citrus extract. Barely a hint of flavor, but I'm well versed in the clean fast and understand the citrus extract breaks my fast. I take it about an hour or two after the serrapeptase, then wait about 30 minutes before eating my meal. I know that's a lot of details, but I'm wondering a couple of things. Do you think I need to wait 30 minutes after I take it to eat? I've heard it is water soluble and I should, but there are no directions on the bottle. It's sublingual liquid. I'm around 18 hours fasted when I started my workouts and hit 20 by the time I'm finished and showered for work."

Melanie Avalon: I don't think you need to wait an entire 30 minutes, especially if it's sublingual. If it's sublingual, it's supposed to be absorbing under your tongue. If there aren't directions on the bottle, I would not stress about it too much.

Gin Stephens: All right. She said, "I've also battled psoriasis for 20 years, which has significantly reduced with a plant-based diet. But I do get flares, particularly, after eating highly refined flours from conventional bakeries and sugar. I'm trying to bake more at home with almond flour and that tends to help although, I'm wondering about the whole grains and links to psoriasis. I've also read that nightshade vegetables can cause flares, but haven't figured out which it is for me yet. I have not done an elimination protocol yet to find out as I am one who can fall right back into restrictive diet mentality at the drop of a hat. So, I try to be very careful in my approach to things."

Melanie Avalon: Fortunately, elimination protocols really can be game changers, if you're trying to pinpoint a food that's not working for you. I think what's really important to understand here, because I understand that you have a tendency to fall back into restrictive diet mentality. I think if you are able to step back, find an elimination protocol that you want to follow, and there are a lot of different ones out there. I like Dr. Will Cole's protocol. He wrote The Inflammation Spectrum. I've had him on my show for that book. You could check that out. But there are a lot of ones. You can just google AIP protocol and follow that. But maybe if you step back, and give it a timeline, and this is the good thing about it. I think a lot of people will try elimination protocols pretty casually and they'll just say, "I'm going to do an elimination protocol, I'm going to remove these foods, and then I'm going to reintroduce them." By not giving it a timeline and giving it specifics, it can make it seem like a more ongoing restrictive diet mentality that you might be jumping into compared to a plan that has a beginning, it has an end, it has a reintroduction protocol, and it's very specific, and it's not meant to be forever.

I think if you can separate that in your mind that doing an elimination protocol, because this is the purpose of elimination protocols. Because people often will do elimination diets with this restrictive diet mentality, and get stuck there, and can't come back out, and it's the very issue that you're talking about. That's not the way it's meant to be. It's supposed to be a flashlight and to show you where you're having your issues. I do want to emphasize too that I think a lot of people don't properly do the reintroduction period. They'll do the elimination and then they'll again casually approach how to do the reintroduction. But in all the different protocols, it's very specific. You're supposed to reintroduce one thing at a time. It depends on who you're following, but one thing at a time, you give it a certain amount of days, you look for symptoms. Amy Myers has a really good protocol as well. We'll put links to all of this in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. JJ Virgin has a great one, The Virgin Diet. That was one of the original, if not the original elimination protocol.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Awesome.

Gin Stephens: I heard her talking about it last week and I think she was one of the very first that actually had a book out there about how to do it for-- I'm not saying that doctors hadn't been doing it, but yeah, The Virgin Diet.

Melanie Avalon: We'll put a link to all of those. Leila, I encourage you to look around, pick one, and then tell yourself, "This is not like a diet. This is not a thing I'm going to be doing for life. This is a very specific protocol to find the foods that are your flares for your autoimmune conditions and psoriasis." I just want to clarify, because psoriasis is considered to be autoimmune. I honestly don't know that there's an alternative. If your goal is to find the foods that are causing this, there's not really any other way to do that.

Gin Stephens: Other than an elimination protocol.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. Any other thoughts about that?

Gin Stephens: No. I think just the whole idea that it is not-- Leila is somebody who can fall under restrictive diet mentality. I have seen her do it and I've also seen her come back out of it. The thing to keep in mind is that, you're not doing it as a diet. You're doing it for science just when we did ZOE, we did it for science and we weren't. When you ate the muffins, you ate them for science.

Melanie Avalon: I was just about to say, it's like ZOE. It's just a little bit slightly longer.

Gin Stephens: You're not manipulating what you're eating for the point of trying to lose weight. You're manipulating what you're eating like, "I'm not going to eat these foods and I'm going to see how my body reacts." It's nothing diety about it really and I know a lot of people use elimination diets to try to lose weight, but that would not be at all the purpose here.

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Gin Stephens: All right. She says, "One last question about AvalonX. I was hoping to take a second pill later in the day. I mentioned I had deadly high inflammatory markers in the beginning of my journey. While they were perfect a year ago when I tested, it's probably time to test them again. How long after I eat is it safe to take it again? I've been waiting around six hours. I'm usually done eating by noon most days. So, 6 PM or so feels okay. I do sometimes have to take melatonin however. If I take serrapeptase at 6 PM, is it safe to take a melatonin shortly after?"

Melanie Avalon: Yes, six hours will definitely be fine, Leila. The recommendation on our website is actually to wait two hours. So, you'll be good. Of course, the longer you wait, probably the better, but you should be good. And listeners, if you have questions, we actually have an FAQ all for this. Just go to avalonx.us/faq.

Gin Stephens: All right. Finally, she said, "Gin knows me in real life. Huh, so, she's probably rolling her eyes at me right now saying, "Oh, Leila." I'm not rolling my eyes, Leila. [laughs] Look, I love all the kids in the classroom, even the one with a lot of questions. I love the one with a lot of questions. Leila says, "I know, I know, figuring out all the things ha ha. Anyway, love you both. I've listened to every episode of this show and you've been my sisters, confidants, teachers, and friends through this journey, and it has been a wild ride trying all the things. I've done ZOE, then served as their first retests subject. I've tried using a glucometer, had a breath ketone meter, I've done red light, infrared sauna, all the things. I have appreciated and trusted your expertise throughout the entire process and I'm still here going strong and muscling through my little setbacks here and there. Thank you for all you do and I'm anxiously awaiting your response. Thank you," Leila from Iowa.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you, Leila. That brings everything full circle with her sign off at the end there.

Gin Stephens: It really does. It really does. All the things, Leila is an experimenter. She's very much about her study of one, and she's a biohacker, [laughs] and she wants to do it right, heard all those questions.

Melanie Avalon: All right. One more question. I wanted to end with a question that was the spirit of Gin. This is a Gin question. The subject is: "Delaying certain foods." Julie says, "Hi, ladies, I found your podcast very early on in my IF journey and it has been such a help to me, especially learning about the clean fast. I started in June 2019 and within about two months, I lost around 21 pounds in weight. I then went on holiday, put on a few pounds, and since then have been losing and regaining the same five to six pounds. I knew my window was getting longer and I was having more two meal days than one meal a day. Switching things up again a couple of weeks ago, managing to go around 19 to 21 hours fasting and having a window of between two to five hours. One meal a day five out of the seven days. Still no weight loss, no more shrinking or getting smaller, in fact.

My IBS, which initially got better seems to have gotten worse, and I am bloated, and experiencing intense cravings for sweet things. I'm so disappointed as this seemed to get easier at first, but now, it is very challenging. I wonder if I need to delay sugar and/or highly refined carbs until I lose some more weight and get rid of this GI distress, but I'm fearful that this will just bring back that diet mentality, which I have been so pleased to have shrugged off for the first time in 30 years. I'm 50 and just going through perimenopause. I feel hormonal a lot of the time, which doesn't help with the sweet cravings. Am I expecting too much of the fasting? Expecting to lose weight, get smaller while still eating so much junk during my window. I need you to tell me straight if I can't have my cake and eat it. Thanks," Julie.

Gin Stephens: Well, Julie, we do not need to tell you straight, because your body is telling you straight. No matter what, I say or Melanie says, your body is telling you that what you're doing right now is not working for you. Here's how you know it. You're not losing weight, your IBS has gotten worse, you're more bloated, and your cravings are intense. Your body is sending you very powerful signals that what you're doing right now is not working well for your body. Now, there's something in there that is really important and I'm glad you included it that you're 50 and that you're in perimenopause right now. I'm going to be honest with you. Our bodies change when we go through this very important hormonal change of life. If you could "get away with" I don't know that sounds kind of diety, but what we could do when we were younger is not what we could do as we get older. That is true. We can complain about it all we want, but it is just the fact that as our bodies change, we have to respond to these changes. I've really had to change the amount of alcohol I drink now versus before. I used to be just fine having a glass of wine every day and then sleeping great. Now, my hormones are different, I can't do that. I'm not mad about it, I just accept it. You have to accept that your body is changing.

You talked about, you use the words, junk. Ultra-processed foods really are not ideal for our bodies. If you haven't read Clean(ish), you may want to take a look at that and just see. I understand you don't want to bring back diet mentality, but that's assuming that, if you get rid of what you call junk, that everything else is just like gross food and you don't want to eat. But that is where you need to shift your mindset. Because once you start shifting towards real food, that stuff that you're calling junk, the sugar and the highly refined carbs that you're talking about that you said you're eating a lot of, those things are not as appealing once you really start eating real foods and feel good. The key is eat real foods that are delicious. You eat real foods that are delicious, that's not dieting. That's not diet mentality. That's nourishing your body. That's eating like a grown up, because you know your body needs those nutrients. Does that mean you can never have sugar or ultra-processed foods again? Of course, not. But if you know that that is making up a huge amount of what you're eating-- If you had a small child in your life, you wouldn't just feed it that junk, you would nourish that child. Nourish yourself the same way you would nourish a child. And feed yourself nutritious foods that you love, that are delicious. You're not going on a diet, you're eating to respond to what will make you feel better, you want to get rid of that bloating, get rid of all that intense craving. That's what I would recommend.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great and I think it speaks to one of, I think the biggest-- I don't know if it's a misconception or it's an association that people make that is a very small, subtle nuance, but it's so profound. It's that people think that saying no to foods, because they are dieting or they want to lose weight is the same thing as saying no to foods that because they don't make them feel well, that if you are restricting foods, that it's always the exact same mentality or reasoning behind it. That's just not true.

Gin Stephens: Like Leila said, she mentioned that, she didn't want to get in diet mentality with an elimination protocol. Same exact thing, but that's not what it is.

Melanie Avalon: It's so common. I think what it is, it's more of a triggering situation than being the same thing. People, who have dieted before, it looks the same on the outside to not eat a food. If you're not eating a food for whatever reason, because you want to lose weight or because it doesn't make you feel good, objectively from the outside, it's like, "Oh, I'm not eating this. I can't have this food or I'm not eating this food." It can trigger the reasons for not eating foods that are not the same reasons now. Not eating a food, because we want to lose weight and feel like you can't have the food, and the food has morality, and you're a bad person, if you eat it, and if you eat it, you'll gain weight, that's an entirely different mindset and reasoning than not eating a food, because it makes you feel unwell, because it's not doing good things for your body. So, choosing not to eat foods that don't make you feel well and don't support you nutritionally is not diet mentality.

Gin Stephens: It's powerful is what it is. It's an empowering moment to say, when I decided that French fries that I get at a restaurant made my stomach hurt, so, I'm not going to eat them. That's me having the power to say, "I don't want to have a stomachache."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Actually, this is the thing that is similar between both of those. It's letting the food not have power over you.

Gin Stephens: Right. You have the power. You're not dieting. You're helping your body feel good.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I feel there are a few different big misconceptions out there and I think this is one of them. We could do a whole episode on this. Like one would be that you have to be low carb to lose weight. I think this would be one. There's quite a few.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think that was a great question for us to end with. I have spent a great episode and again, thank you so much, Melanie for everything.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. For listeners. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Again, if you would like to receive the first episode of this show ever, send us a screenshot of your old iTunes review or new review. Just make sure that the review includes what you are looking forward to or excited to experience with Cynthia coming on board. Oh, yes, the timeline of that really quick for listeners. Next episode is going to be a very special episode with actually my partner Scott at MD Logic. We're going to answer actually a lot of questions about the AvalonX line and serrapeptase, and the upcoming magnesium, and all of those things. So, it's an intermission and then the episode after that will be Cynthia on board. So, Gin, thank you so much for the past five years. This has been such an incredible, beautiful, amazing journey. I'm so grateful.

Gin Stephens: 100% right back atcha.

Melanie Avalon: I'm grateful for our friendship, for the show and obviously, the good thing is, we'll still be here. So, we'll still be friends, we'll still be talking, and maybe we can bring you on the future for a guest episode. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Maybe. I'll be open to that. I will not say no, I will not say never. [laughs] But yeah, everybody can still find me on Intermittent Fasting Stories or the Life Lesson Podcast. If you really want to know what I'm doing in life, Life Lessons is where to get it. [laughs] All right, signing off.

Melanie Avalon: The show notes for everything will be at ifpodcast.com/episode264.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Gin's Delay, Don't Deny: Living an Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle
Feast Without Fear: Food and the Delay, Don't Deny Lifestyle
Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Clean Fast Protocol for Health, Longevity, and Weight Loss--Including the 21-Day FAST Start Guide
Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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May 01

Episode 263: 5 Year Anniversary, Bingeing, Weight Fluctuations, Over-Exercising, Mindset & Therapy, Less Restriction, Protein Intake, Blood Types, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Associations between liking for fat, sweet or salt and obesity risk in French adults: a prospective cohort study

Welcome to Episode 263 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AVALONX SERRAPEPTASE: A Proteolytic Enzyme Which May Help Clear Sinuses And Brain Fog, Reduce Allergies, Support A Healthy Inflammatory State, Enhance Wound Healing, Break Down Fatty Deposits And Amyloid Plaque, Supercharge Your Fast, And More! AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Order At AvalonX.Us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At melanieavalon.com/avalonx!

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SHOW NOTES

AVALONX: Order At AvalonX.Us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At melanieavalon.com/avalonx!

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Listener Q&A: Carre - Not losing but Gaining?! SOS

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode # 30 William Shewfelt And Ted Naiman

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Listener Q&A: Danielle - Why isn't if it's good for us ...is it not for our babies? Contradicting advice

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 263 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Basically, it's the coolest supplement ever and it is an awesome way to really amplify your fast. I take it every single day. We also recently launched subscriptions, so that you can get a big discount on my supplements, as well as help support sustainability by reducing emissions from shipping. And my next supplement is coming soon. That is magnesium. Get excited. If you want to get the latest information, specials, news about new supplements, and stay up to date on everything, AvalonX, definitely get on my email list. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. When you join that list, check for the welcome email to make sure it doesn't go to spam. And you can shop, of course, at avalonx.us. Again, that is avalonx.us. A-V-A-L-O-N-X dot US, avalon x.us. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens, which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally, completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 263 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, this is an exciting date. If you think about it, this podcast that's coming out today, the day it's coming out is May 2nd of 22. Our very first podcast came out in the beginning of May in 2017. So, we've crossed the five-year mark.

Melanie Avalon: Do we ever figure out what day it was, exactly?

Gin Stephens: It was the very first Monday of May, whatever that was.

Melanie Avalon: Of 2017?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, if we go back--

Melanie Avalon: Can you Google, like, a specific day, like, first?

Gin Stephens: I have my calendar right here. [laughs] I'll just look it down. If I go back, yeah, May 1st. It was May 1st. We have crossed the five-year mark. I think that's pretty remarkable. I also see that May 1st of 2017 was a Jeans Day at my elementary school. So, that was very exciting. I had it recorded in my calendar. We got through Jeans Days. Oh, Lordy.

Melanie Avalon: I was actually thinking about that, because how long were you a teacher before you weren't a teacher when we were recording?

Gin Stephens: Well, I retired in 2018. So, I taught for one more full year after we started the podcast. One more full year.

Melanie Avalon: Because what I was thinking about was, I don't really remember that experience of recording with you while you were teaching still.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was a lot, because I taught five days a week and I also taught Gifted Endorsement classes after school on Monday and Tuesday. I was working so hard. I was working constantly. We recorded on Sundays, because that was really the only time I could do it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I definitely remember when you switch to not being a teacher. Not like an identity crisis, but you were like-- You have such a different experience of your life.

Gin Stephens: Well, it was huge, because I thought about it. I was in school or teaching school from the time I started kindergarten until I retired in 2018. There was never a time of my life that I was not on a school schedule, even in college, of course that schedule is slightly different, but you're still on a school schedule. But then it was after I retired, the spring of 2018, it was May was when the school year ended and that was when I could start Intermittent Fasting Stories, because I didn't have time to record with people. I barely had time to record with you. But we have crossed the five-year mark. So, that just feels something we should celebrate.

Melanie Avalon: It's so weird for me to think about with me, because I was working the serving job and everything. It was just such a completely different experience of life back then.

Gin Stephens: Things were very, very different. I very much had to live my life around being at work at 7:45, [laughs] five days a week. I still think like a teacher. Right now, we're recording this. It's Master's week in Augusta. All the teachers have had the last week off, they're going back to work next week, and I still think about that, and I'm so grateful to have-- To be self-employed is such a different kind of thing. Yeah, thank you for all the teaching me how to podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you for podcasting with me for five years. Oh, my goodness, that's crazy. Half a decade.

Gin Stephens: And we didn't have an ad for the whole-- When did we get our first ad?

Melanie Avalon: The first few years of the show was when I was moving a lot.

Gin Stephens: You sure were? You were moving a lot.

Melanie Avalon: I was moving, and had my serving job, and then the podcast. Basically, I remember myself as serving and where was I living. So, I remember that first ad we booked, I was in an LA, I think. It would have been 2018.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't think we had an ad till 2018.

Melanie Avalon: I was so excited.

Gin Stephens: It really was. [laughs] I was at a conference this week. It was a virtual conference this weekend and someone was talking about starting a podcast. It was the guy, he has an entrepreneur podcast and he has it seven days a week. He's like, "I recommend you to have seven episodes a week." I'm like, "Oh, Lord have mercy. No."

Melanie Avalon: Wait, sorry. That just happened?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was yesterday, I was at this virtual conference and then someone in the chat-- because it was on the Zoom. Someone in the chat was like, "How profitable is a podcast?" I'm like, "Well, give yourself a year to make zero, at least." People don't want to hear that. You have to really put in the time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Ooh. Well, happy half a decade anniversary.

Gin Stephens: The day that this comes out, we will have just crossed it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I wonder how many listeners have listened to every single episode.

Gin Stephens: Now, that would be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Since the beginning.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't know. I don't even remember how many listeners we had back then.

Melanie Avalon: I don't either.

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I do think it went up pretty fast.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of people started listening.

Gin Stephens: And that was the genius of how we named it. That was the smartest thing we ever did was name it, Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: We had a lot of pun names.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, little cutesy names that we were throwing around and I'm like, "Wait, I don't know about any of these." We're like, "Let's just do Intermittent Fasting Podcast," and that really has helped people find it. Especially, now, anybody who's thinking about starting a podcast, there are so many podcasts.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's a bit overwhelming.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. And so many that are great.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: But think about this. How many podcasts, besides the guy who had put out seven a week, because Lord have mercy like I said. But how many podcasts never take a break, never replay, never have a hiatus? We put out an episode every single week for five years, now.

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking about that, too, this week, actually. I was thinking about how we've never-- Because a lot of shows will air an old episode.

Gin Stephens: Like a filler.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I was thinking how we haven't done that and I was thinking like, "Would I ever do that in any situation?" I know recently, this week on Peter Attia show, he aired an episode with a woman, who is pretty big in the low carb world, who passed away. So, he aired it like an honor of her.

Gin Stephens: Like a memorial, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And then I was thinking about my show and I was like, "Oh, would that be something I would do if that happened on that show." But--

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Hopefully, you'll never have to answer that question about someone passing away.

Melanie Avalon: Well, listeners, thanks for being here.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and if you've been around for five years, plus, listening to every episode-- I know there are people that have listened to everyone. People, who like binge listen, but I don't know if they started back there in May of 2017, because [laughs] that was a long time ago. I feel like a whole different person now.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I do for sure in a good way. Well, I'm so grateful for the show.

Gin Stephens: Me, too. It's been a great ride.

Melanie Avalon: And the listeners.

Gin Stephens: And seriously, if it hadn't been for you, I wouldn't. [laughs] I'm sure I would not have any podcasts, because--

Melanie Avalon: Well, likewise. I still think the funniest thing is--

Gin Stephens: When you got kicked out of my group?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Not by me. I just have to say that. It was my moderators. I don’t know for anyone who hasn't heard the story, it's been a long time since we talked about it. It was back when I did have two Facebook groups. I had the one-meal-a-day group and I had the Delay, Don’t Deny group. Just those two. And the one-meal-a-day group was by far the biggest. It probably had, I don't know, 4,000 members, which sounded so big to me, then. Delay, Don't Deny had barely been out, because it came out at the very end of 2016 into 2017. So, it was probably what's it like March or April of 2017. You made a post in the group that said, "Hi, I'm an author of--"

Melanie Avalon: Okay, okay. I really wanted to start a podcast. I was like, "I need a cohost. How do I find a cohost?" So, I was googling the Facebook groups for intermittent fasting. That blows my mind. So, it was only around 4,000 members?

Gin Stephens: Something like that. I can't believe it was much more than that, because when I wrote Delay, Don’t Deny, I think it had 3,500. But it was the largest one-meal-a-day group. It was the only one-meal-a-day group really for a long, long time.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "I really want to find a cohost." The important thing about the post I made was my goal with the post. I wanted people to know that I wasn't just some--

Gin Stephens: Right. You wanted to establish credibility.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I want to establish credibility. But I also didn't want to seem I was promoting my book. I don't remember the exact post, but I didn't even put the link to my book in the post. I said, "I had a book coming out, but I wasn't putting it in the link," because I didn't want to make it seem this was self-promotion. I was like, "How do I do this?" so that I establish credibility, but I make it super clear that I'm not trying to self-promote and it still completely failed. They kicked me out.

Gin Stephens: One of the moderators, they're like, "I just removed this girl." I'm like, "What?" Then I was like, "Oh, let me." Then I think I messaged you and I'm like, "Hey, sorry about that. The moderators thought you were in there." Because people would all the time come in and try to self-promote stuff, you know?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that completely makes sense, but it's just funny that I tried so hard to not do that and it failed.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, those moderators, they were very protective and I appreciate them so much, because they were like, "Not today, Melanie Avalon."

Melanie Avalon: Shut down. I was wondering if that post is still there in archived.

Gin Stephens: No, well, I guess, it could be. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Can you search through old posts?

Gin Stephens: I don't go to Facebook anymore. I haven't been on Facebook.

Melanie Avalon: Can a person, like, can I?

Gin Stephens: Yo-yeah. It's archived. The group is archived. It's frozen in time, and nobody can go in, and put mad face emojis or comments, but you can go in and search. You can't join. Well, I don't think you can join it. The regular Delay, Don’t Deny group, I think the moderators-- there are still a few moderators were letting people join, but you can't do anything. We're not. That one is not archived, but it's not active either, but you can still search it. That was a long time ago. But five years is not a long time, but it is a long time.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, so much has changed. But thankful for the journey.

Melanie Avalon: Likewise.

Gin Stephens: Anything new going on with you?

Melanie Avalon: Not really. Just finishing up the magnesium specs, finishing up the artwork for my EMF locking device, launching the subscriptions for serrapeptase, prepping the other shows. So, all good things. How about you?

Gin Stephens: Well, not much just still. Doing some packing, getting ready to make the move, not sure what the timeline is going to be, that sort of thing. There's a lot going on. Master's week is ending like I said, so, that's when the real estate market picks back up in Augusta. Fingers crossed. We will sell our house soon. Ready to sell it and get going.

Melanie Avalon: Very exciting.

Gin Stephens: It's a great house. Someone's got to love it as much as we did. I never thought I'd leave. The only thing that could get me out of here is going to the beach. So, [laughs] I'm really looking forward to being there all the time. Today, it'd be a beautiful day to go to the beach if I was at the beach, but--

Melanie Avalon: And you guys really fixed it up, right, the house?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we did. It's a house that was built in 1979. We didn't do everything that could have been done to it, of course. I'm also the kind of person that doesn't think every house has to match the year trends. You know what I mean? This is a house that was built in 1979. The kitchen does not look like 2022. It's a beautiful kitchen. It's a quality kitchen, but it's not updated.

Melanie Avalon: What about the appliances and stuff?

Gin Stephens: The appliances are really great. They're KitchenAid professional appliances, like, built in. They're all good appliances. They're not brand new, but they're not old appliances. It's a gas range that's built-- A gas stovetop that's built in and a microwave. You don't look at them and think they look old.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I don't know anything about house trends.

Gin Stephens: Well, I watch a lot of HGTV. [laughs] But the thing about house trends is, they really do come and go and you can't remodel your house every five years. So, eventually, you get to the point where you want more of a timeless look that isn't going to date it.

Melanie Avalon: When I build my dream house, it's my goals, my visualizing, it's going to be a biohacker house. So, I don't think it'll be any trends. It'll be like the biohacker trends.

Gin Stephens: I did not know you wanted to do that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really?

Gin Stephens: You've never mentioned that to me. Now, where will it be? Where is your biohacker house going to be?

Melanie Avalon: Probably, in Calabasas in LA or something. It's going to be so great. [giggles] It's going to have lots of natural light and stuff, but controllable light. So, you press the buttons and the things adjust, like the windows.

Gin Stephens: You can make it completely black.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes.

Gin Stephens: I was just at a beautiful home. I stayed with somebody and it was the most beautiful home ever. But it didn't have any blinds on the windows. I was like, "Is there a way I get that--" Nope. But I'm like, "Okay."

Melanie Avalon: They just don't want them?

Gin Stephens: They just didn't have blinds on the windows, but it was really bright, because the moon was out. Anyway, I like a very dark room.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too. Although, I would love a sky window.

Gin Stephens: A skylight kind of a thing?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Just you want to be able to close it.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Right. My bedroom will have to be a skylight window that closes, but then I got to mitigate all that EMF. So, I have to figure that out. It's going to be crazy and I want a cryotherapy chamber.

Gin Stephens: Well, that doesn't surprise me at all.

Melanie Avalon: Goals.

Gin Stephens: And a sauna, big sauna. I know you'll have that.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. And a cold plunge, but definitely hardcore with the EMF mitigation and grounded. I want the whole floor to be grounded.

Gin Stephens: Well, I think that's really smart.

Melanie Avalon: So, just putting it out there. This is whiles away, obviously. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait. That's going to be cool.

Melanie Avalon: You can come visit.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: It'll be super fun.

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Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have one, this is super random, but I'm always looking at random studies and I don't know how I found this one, but I thought it was really fun and I thought we could play the guessing game really quick.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: The title is: "associations between liking for fat, sweet, or salt, and obesity risk in French adults: a prospective cohort study."

Gin Stephens: Are you going to need to read that one more time? Me not being an auditory learner. Say it one more time.

Melanie Avalon: "Associations between liking for fat, sweet, or salt, and obesity risk in French adults.

Gin Stephens: Okay. It's whether people prefer salty, sweet, or what was the third?

Melanie Avalon: Salt or fat.

Gin Stephens: Salt, fat, or sweet.

Melanie Avalon: And how it relates to obesity risk? This was, okay, over five years among 24,776 French adults, they basically took a questionnaire about their likings and then also each year for five years, they collected their body weight data and stuff. The question is, what do you think for each of them, how do you think the flavors related to obesity? We can go through them one by one. So, either was linked to an increased risk of obesity, a decreased risk or no association.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, I would predict that fat was linked to an increased risk of obesity.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, that is correct. Do you think it was more in men or women?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. I didn't know we were gendering it to. I would predict that'd be men and women.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, correct. Women, it was 52% and men, it was 32%.

Gin Stephens: 52%, what? More likely to be obese?

Melanie Avalon: It says, "dietary intake explained 32% in men and 52% in women have the overall variation of liking for fat and obesity. Does that sound like it was a stronger correlation in women?

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, how about sweet?

Gin Stephens: I'm going to say that it did not have an association with obesity.

Melanie Avalon: Sensory liking for sweet was associated with a decreased risk of obesity.

Gin Stephens: See, I'm not surprised. That would absolutely run contrary to the conventional wisdom as "fat is your friend and sugar is the reason everyone is fat." I've said this before. A lot of people falsely associate things as being carbs are fat. They think that French fries are carbs when really, they're very high fat and high carb. I think people are just really confused. They're like, "See, I can't eat French fries. Carbs make me gain weight." But French fries are not just carbs. Anyway, that's what I think a lot of the confusion comes from that a lot of the food that's ultra-processed or "junk food" is lumped in the carbs category, when they're not just carbs.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Because I think of people, who really are looking for a sweet taste, they're probably people who eat a lot of fruit, for example.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And also, actually, if you think about it more, so, let's say even this is completely just me hypothesizing. So, this is not super scientific. But let's say we have two groups of people that are following a standard American diet. They are eating processed foods, but one likes more fatty and one likes more sweet. In that situation, it's possible that they're both eating processed foods, it's possible that the group that likes fat is going to be eating the fattier processed foods. They're both going to be in this state of food that is metabolically not healthy, but probably the high fatty stuff is going to just be a higher caloric load overall and more calories that are very easily stored as fat.

Gin Stephens: Well, I also think about myself and I'm someone, who definitely it's the fat that I like. For example, I don't want to eat plain fruit. I want to eat ice cream. I want my sweet to have the creaminess of the fat with it too or the fat from the ice cream. So, I totally get the fatness for even the sweet things I want or fat sweet, right? Not low fat sweet.

Melanie Avalon: And what about salt?

Gin Stephens: I'm going to say that had no correlation at all.

Melanie Avalon: No significant association between salt liking and the risk of obesity.

Gin Stephens: I like salty fatty and I like sweet fatty. I know that and I was obese. So, that's why it doesn't surprise me at all.

Melanie Avalon: So, we can put a link to that in the show notes, but I just thought it was a fun study.

Gin Stephens: I liked it and I'm so proud of myself for guessing it right.

Melanie Avalon: It's hard to go back and wonder what you would have guessed. but okay. For fat, I probably would have thought increased for sweet. I don't think I would have guessed decreased, but I might have guessed no association like you did. And for salts, I probably would have said--

Gin Stephens: Oh, I thought I said decrease for sweet or not associated. Okay. That's what I meant. I meant it was not-- Okay, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, there's decreased and then there's no association, which are different.

Gin Stephens: Right. The salt, I clearly said no association, but I meant for sugar the opposite. I didn't say it very well. Not associated with obesity. I meant associated the other way. Anyway, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It was interesting. So, prior to reading Rick Johnson's Nature Wants Us to Be Fat and David Perlmutter's Drop Acid, I would have said salt was no association. But after reading their books, I should actually, I'm friends now with Rick, I should send him this study. Now, after reading their books, they make a case that salt-- Actually, they reference a lot of studies where salt links to obesity. So, that's interesting.

Gin Stephens: Again, though, I think it's hard to untangle it from what you're eating. If you're eating French fries, you might think that it's the salt, but it's really the fat. It's hard to untangle. The study that you were talking about, if I'm correct, it was people who said what their preference was.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yes, right. Oh, yeah, rather than what they're actually eating.

Gin Stephens: Right. I can hone in on the fact that I like fatty tasty things, whether it's a sweet fatty thing or a salty fatty thing, I know that I need the butter, I need the sour cream, I need the whatever. So, I think that's probably a big variable.

Melanie Avalon: This says that previous studies have shown that subjects with high fat liking have higher fat intake, but also lower intake of nutrient dense foods such as fruits and vegetables, dairy products, whole grain products, and fish. That relates to what you were saying about the sweet tasting, where people who are sweet tasters probably are eating more fruits and vegetables, because they're going to gravitate towards that type of food.

Gin Stephens: Well, I gravitate towards all that really good food just with plenty of added fat now. In the past, back when I was obese, I was eating the ultra-processed higher fat foods. But now, I'm going to have potato wedges tossed in olive oil, baked in the oven. That's not a low-fat food. It's also not a low-carb food, but it's a healthy fat, it's a healthy carb, it's real food, but certainly it's both fatty, carby, and salty.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, shall we jump into questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, we have a question from Carrie and the subject is: "not losing, but gaining. SOS" and Carrie says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie." That's an interesting way to spell your name. You probably get all different--

Gin Stephens: Well, I do, I do. This one is Jin and I don't know that I've gotten that one very often. I get Jen, because sometimes people think it's like Jennifer, but it's Gin for Virginia like gin and tonic. So, that's actually how you spell it in case anyone wondered.

Melanie Avalon: She says, "I've been doing IF for the past year on and off, but regularly, the past two months. I tend to stick to a 20:4 window, but sometimes, do a 22 or 23-hour fast when the days are busy or an occasional 15 or 16-hour fast, if I am at an event or race. When I first started doing IF, it was to help me with binge eating, especially at night and it was worse at first actually. I was binging all the time, but now, I feel more in control with the fast and make sure I eat a giant salad or a delicious vegetable dish before I even think of anything sweet. My weakness is always the sweets, cakes, cookies, you name it." This is appropriate. This is what we were just talking about.

Gin Stephens: But again, all those foods are also very high fat. Cakes and cookies [giggles] are sweet and fat.

Melanie Avalon: So true. She says, "Sometimes, if I bike 40 plus miles or run 10 miles, I will tell myself, "I deserve the goodies" and it usually ends in a binge of chocolate-covered peanuts, and cakes, or donuts. However, now that I feel I have a handle on the fasting part, I am not losing any weight, but sometimes even gaining weight. When I started getting more strict with the fasting longevity in February, I was 135 pounds and now I'm in the 140s. I'm 5'4" and 22 years old and have an athletic build under all the chub. I love working out. I am kind of a cardio junkie with swimming, biking, and running. When I was in high school, I weighed 115 and was captain of the swim team, and I really hope to be able to get to at least 125 pounds with IF. I used to be able to run eight to 10 miles no problem a few months ago, but now, it's my body does not have the energy that it used to. Anyways, my questions for you two lovely ladies is, why am I not losing weight and how can I fix this? I clean fast only black coffee and water. I do need to take a probiotic B12, vitamin D, and a fiber supplement in the morning for my ulcerative colitis, and I am a vegetarian, and I don't consume too much dairy. On a normal day, I consume 1,500 to 2,000 calories. Should I cut calories, should I fast more? I know Gin mentioned she lost the most weight when she was doing ADF with a 5:2 pattern."

Gin Stephens: That's actually not true. I don't know where that came from, because I did not. [laughs] No.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to talk about that now?

Gin Stephens: I'm just popping in there to say, we can just say that is not when I lost the most weight. I lost the most weight when I was doing a one-meal-a-day pattern with delaying all processed foods and alcohol. That is where I lost the most weight. 5:2 with ADF was never the weight loss. I never lost weight with a 5:2 ADF pattern. I did lose some weight with a 4:3 ADF pattern, but two down days wasn't enough for me. I needed three. So, anyway, I'm just popping that in there.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I wonder why she thinks that. Okay, she says, "I want to try this but I'm scared to. Should I work out more or less? All the questions. Please help. Also, as a sidenote, to give you ladies as much information, I have experimented with all the fat weight loss hacks like apple cider vinegar, and Garcinia cambogia, my fair share of weight loss pills all throughout high school and college, even some Hydroxycut, and energy patches that are supposed to help appetite. I have always struggled with my self-image and thought I was fat when I was in high school. So, now, all this chub on my stomach, and arms, and legs is really making me upset and depressed. I am at a loss and I really am struggling with liking the way my body looks now that I am the fattest I've ever been. I love the podcast and listen to it while I'm running and biking. Please help," Carrie.

Gin Stephens: All right, Carrie. There's a lot to unpack here. First of all, I want to talk about the fact that you've just been doing this regularly for two months. You're still in very early days. That's really important to know. You are two months in, that's important. Also, I want to talk about the binging that you mentioned. When you first started, you were having trouble with binging and you were actually binging a lot at first. We actually find before people are fat adapted, their body is not really assessing fuel efficiently during the fast, so you're under fueled and so you are going to when you open your window be more likely to binge. We see that all the time with people in the adjustment phase. So, keep that in mind. But after you're past the adjustment phase, if you start feeling the urge to binge, that is linked to not fueling your body well enough for what you're doing. You're over restricting in one way or another and it sounds like how you just mentioned in this question, if you bike 40 plus miles or run 10 miles, you end with a binge. You're framing it as that it's because you're weak, because you said, "I tell myself I deserve the goodies and then it ends in a binge."

Actually, I want you to flip that. It's not because you're deserving the goodies or you're weak. It's because you just biked 40 miles or ran 10 miles and your body is like, "Help me, I need more fuel." I want everybody to really get out of your way when it comes to what a binge is telling you. It is not telling you there's something wrong with you, it's a sign that you're not fueling your body well. Now, again, at the very beginning, when you first start IF, you're not fueling your body well, because your body is not well fueled during the fast. But once you become fat adapted, your body should tap into your fat stores. This is assuming you're fast and clean. Your body should tap into your fat stores well, you'll feel much better, you should not be binging. If after you're adapted, you are still seeing a lot of binging kind of behavior, ask yourself, "Am I over restricting in my eating window or am I over exercising?"

Now, you said you're only eating 1,500 to 2,000 calories, but you're a cardio junkie with swimming, biking, and running. It sounds to me you might be under fueling your body even day to day. Please don't cut calories or fast more. That is not what I would recommend. I actually think you might want to try a little something more gentle with your working out. And again, you're only two months in. Fast. Feast. Repeat., I talk about the 28-day fasts are not to expect any weight loss at all. You're one month past that. It also sounds to me, like, the way that you phrased it, you said, "I am not losing any weight, but sometimes, even gaining weight" makes it sound to me you're putting a lot of focus on fluctuations, Not losing weight, but sometimes gaining over a two-month period, that's just what weight does. It goes up, it goes down. You fluctuate. I want you to take some time to pull out a copy of Fast. Feast. Repeat., listen to it, get it if you don't have it, and I want you to read the scale-schmale chapter or listen to it. I want you to have a well-rounded plan for how you're going to track your progress. Because if you get on the scale and the weight is up, that doesn't mean you just "gained weight." Technically, yes, it does mean you just gained weight, because it's up on the scale. But it might be inflammation from your muscle use, it might be water retention. It's not fat gain is what I'm saying. So, you need to have a strategy for looking at what your trend is doing over time.

Weighing daily, calculating your weekly average, an app like Happy Scale that will do that for you, I want you to take progress photos today. Put on your workout clothes, take photos from the front, from the side, from the back, and then I want you to look at those every-- Take new photos, maybe every three weeks or something like that. Same outfit every time and really compare. Because especially, with the amount of working out that you're doing, you might see your body shrinking in the photos, but the scale is actually continuing to go up with all the muscle building you might be doing especially at the age of 22. But I want you to really, really think about not overdoing it. It really sounds to me like you're fasting a lot and working out a lot. So, you may need a more gentle approach, you need to nourish your body, and take the sign of wanting to binge as an alarm sign and say, "Okay, this is telling me I need to nourish my body more or I need to work out less." That's really, really important. I think I got it all. [laughs] Oh, I had one other thing. I did forget something. The probiotic and the fiber supplement, I would recommend those in your eating window. I understand that you have colitis and that you need to take the fiber, but I would just move it to open your eating window instead of having it in the fasted state.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Yes, I thought that was all great. I think Carrie, well, first of all, I really empathize with you with feeling. It's interesting, because when I first started reading the beginning of it, it sounded you were looking back to your high school time as a time when you were happy with your weight. But then at the end, you revealed that you felt uncomfortable in your body this entire time, which is a long time to not be happy with your body. What's interesting about that is, it says to me that the piece here, yes, some of it might come from losing the weight. But the fact that you felt this way even when you were, because in high school, you weigh 10 pounds less than what you want to weigh now, but you weren't happy then with your weight either. I think there's a huge, huge reframe that can happen that is not even dependent on your weight. And that's going to be something that I would suggest looking into mindset practices or working with a therapist. I am a huge, huge proponent of working with therapists for everything. Just a really quick tangent about that, Gin. Do you think this is based on where you live? I guess the stigma around therapists, do you think that's still a thing today more?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. It might be age more than anything. I'm not really sure. Maybe older people feel more of a stigma, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was just thinking about it, because I've had a therapist since 2014. I've had a few different ones, because I've moved around, but it's just such a normal-- It's so helpful for me and it was just wonderful to have that space, where you can just discuss all of these things and reframe in a non-judgmental, safe atmosphere. But it was just funny, because I was going to my-- Did I mention this on the podcast already? I was going to cryotherapy the other day, and I mentioned that I had just come from a therapy session, and her response made it seem like she was like, "Oh, I hope everything's okay." It made it seem I was going for something traumatic that had happened. I was like, "No this is what I just go as part of my daily life." That was a tangent. Point being, I think that could be something that could be really helpful for your body image and all of that stuff.

Another reframe I think you can do and this is what Gin sort of talked about, with the binging for example, it can come from, like Gin said, your body is begging or screaming, I don't know what words you used, but for nutrition. A huge reframe that you can have there is probably right now, I don't know, but probably, since your habitual experience of having this signal from your body, this binge feeling, it sounds like the way you respond to that in the past is with sweets, and cakes, and cookies. You've created this association in your head that, when I get this really hungry, bingy feeling the solution or what I will do on autopilot is sweets, cakes, cookies. Have you tried when you have this feeling to look to the abundance of foods that you could have instead of sweets, cakes, and cookies? Because you might find that there's actually nothing to fear with this feeling that you get, because you actually can nourish yourself and you actually can eat all you want and it doesn't have to be these foods that will make you feel not so good in the end, these processed foods. I don't think it can be overstated, overstated, the importance of--

Gin Stephens: That's right.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think it can be overstated the importance of protein. If you weren't vegetarian, what I would have said, if so for anybody else experiencing this, I would have said really, really focusing on animal protein. Chicken, steak, fish, things like that. I think that can really, really help with hunger. There's especially something we've talked about a lot which is the protein leverage hypothesis, which is basically that your body will, you will feel hungry until you satisfy your protein needs. I talked about it with Ted Naiman and William Shewfelt, who actually they were on this show, too, weren't they? Yes, they were.

Gin Stephens: Ted Naiman was not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's just William on this show?

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, we've had William on the show and then I've had William and Ted Naiman.

Gin Stephens: Oh, they came on together to your show? Well, no, I take that back. Did we have Wade Lightheart and his partner on at the same time?

Melanie Avalon: We did, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. I can never think of his name.

Melanie Avalon: Matt Gallant.

Gin Stephens: Matt. But other than that, I don't think we've ever had four of us on this one. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'll put links in the show notes to the one on my show with Ted Naiman and William Shewfelt, because I really like Ted's book. It's called, I think The PE Diet, but it's about basically this idea of the importance of protein. You're vegetarian. I am wondering what your main protein sources are and I would turn to them in the beginning of your meal when you're having these post workout meals or even your meal situation that you're in. Yes, so, upping the protein, I think could be really, really helpful. And also, another reframe is, especially if you've had this experience in the past of not being happy and responding to these urges with binges, you can feel destined to repeat that, but you are not.

Every single day, instead of being scared of it as another day, where things might get worse, or you might gain weight, or you might binge. What if you reframe that every single day, you have newfound knowledge that maybe you didn't have in the past and so every day can be a step towards something better? I think you can feel really, really empowered, especially since Gin said, the focus we don't think shouldn't be on, it's not a restrictive answer. It's not cutting calories, it's not exercising more, it's not fasting more, it's providing your body with nutrition, which is actually state of abundance. So, the solution here is actually abundance not restriction, which is very exciting. I feel that was all over the place.

Gin Stephens: Well, I really agree with your recommendation for more protein, because that's very true as well. Your body sends you that signal. I very much believe that protein leverage hypothesis to be true.

Melanie Avalon: I really do. Even just for me like N of 1, I am starving if I don't get enough protein. I was actually thinking about this. During that study, I wish that they had had umami as one of the tastes. People who really like umami and like the protein.

Gin Stephens: I love umami.

Melanie Avalon: I do, too. That's my thing. The protein is my thing. I think I'm much more aware of how satiating protein is for me, but I think if I didn't naturally gravitate towards a high-protein diet, I wonder if I would fall into this state, where I wouldn't necessarily turn to protein. So, I would just feel perpetually hungry.

Gin Stephens: Well, I eat less protein than you. I don't crave it as much as you'd like. I don't eat as much meat as you do. But sometimes, my body directs me to want more meat. My body does let me know when I think back.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if so for vegetarians and vegans. I wonder if they naturally gravitate towards when they get protein cravings. I wonder if it appears as a similar food. I wonder if it's legumes and beans or if it's soy. How that craving manifests?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know. For me, when it's a really strong protein craving, it is meat.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. Me, too. That's why I'm super curious.

Gin Stephens: I had a great burger last night. It was Green Chef, by the way, one of our sponsors. It was so good. But it was so good. It was a burger with Monterey jack and then it had those potatoes that I was talking about sliced potatoes tossed in olive oil, roasted in the oven, so good.

Melanie Avalon: Now, I'm getting hungry, too.

Gin Stephens: I know. Now, I'm really hungry. Sometimes, I just really love some red meat. It's funny around our table. Will doesn’t like a ton of meat unlike, Chad doesn’t like a ton of meat, Cal is practically a vegetarian, because his wife is a vegetarian. So, Cal will eat meat, but they don't eat meat at home. I don't know, maybe he doesn't really eat it at all, just rarely. But it's interesting that we've all just naturally gravitated that way.

Melanie Avalon: I think I'm really the only you huge meat eater in my family.

Gin Stephens: And what's your blood type?

Melanie Avalon: O.

Gin Stephens: See. I don't think blood type is the whole thing, but there's some kind of connection there, something. We're all A. I don't think blood type, it's not quite as simple as eat right for your type, but we're all A and A is supposed to not need as much meat. And O is associated with needing more meat. So, I don't know that everything they say is right, but that sure seems to be on the money for a lot of people.

Melanie Avalon: A lot of it might be the stomach acid correlation to type O.

Gin Stephens: That could really-- That makes a lot of sense just because if I eat too much meat, it feels it sits like a rock in my stomach. That's the same way that everyone else in my family feels, too. That's why you naturally just don't want to eat too much of it, because it doesn't feel good to overeat it.

Melanie Avalon: It is a question, though, of chicken and egg with that even. Do people who are type O, is there something and then that needs more meat, so they have higher stomach acid or do they have higher stomach acids, so they naturally just do better with more meat? I don't know. But in any case, Carrie, we are sending you lots of love. We think you can do it. There's a lot of potential and I think a lot of just reframes on the situation can be very helpful here. Any other thoughts from you, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I think we covered it. There was a lot going on in that question.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Danielle. That is my sister's name. "Why isn't if it's good for us, is it not for our babies contradicting advice?" That is an interesting title. Danielle says, "Hey, ladies. Love the podcast. I'm currently binging all of your episodes. What a great duo you are. I've jumped on the IF train mostly interested in the health benefits as I have chronic disease mild and giving my gut a break is so good for it. I'm studying herbs and started listening to a new podcast called What's The Juice that focuses a lot on educating us about the lymphatic system. I love it. But in the first episode, she addresses IF and her opinion on it, she makes the statement, "would you have your baby fast until 2 PM?" And they talked about science reasons for why it's not good to fast for long periods. It made me start thinking and I was wondering what your opinion is about this."

Gin Stephens: Can we answer that part, now?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: That is just really not a good analogy at all that this host used on this other podcast, because I want you to think about how babies eat naturally. I don't know. My babies like to wake up every two hours and eat in the middle of the night. When Cal was a baby, I swear for the first four and a half months of his life, he ate every two hours around the clock, because they're building a body. You would never fast to baby, because they need constant fuel, they're growing, they're building. But we're adults. For adults, it's a whole different thing. I'm not trying to grow a body or build a whole new body. Here I am. I don't want to grow anymore, because we're not growing as a society physically bigger as far as getting taller like children do. We are growing horizontally. If you look at society, people are gaining weight, because we're eating too much. It's not a really good analogy to compare how a baby needs to eat with how an adult needs to eat, because it's completely different. You got a completely different goal there. We're trying to keep our bodies nourished as adults and eat the nutrients that our bodies need to function. We want to eat sufficient protein to maintain muscle mass, that sort of thing, nourish our bodies, but we don't need to eat around the clock. If we ate every two hours around the clock, how big would we get? It would not be good. So, not a good analogy. Good try, lady on the other podcast.

Melanie Avalon: On the flipside, you could say, "Why aren't we eating like babies?" Then we're not having breast milk and we're not eating a baby diet.

Gin Stephens: You can't compare how a baby eats to how an adult eats. In fact, what I like to say, whenever someone's like, "Well, how do I tell my children that I'm fasting, but it's not good for them?" I'm like, "Well, you just say, because you're not growing anymore." Growing bodies need to eat differently than bodies that are already grown. I think that's really important to know. When people start throwing away how "it's not good to fast for long periods," it depends on what you mean by long periods, obviously, there is a period of time that it's too long to fast for. But it sounds like they think 2 PM is too long. When I look at the people, who are scientists in the field, who have studied this, who have studied fasting and like Dr. Mark Mattson that I've talked about before, and I had a guy, gosh, Gil Blander, was he from InsideTracker?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I had him on Intermittent Fasting Stories. He's a longevity expert and he said-- Look, this is a longevity expert and he said, "The number one best thing you can do for your body for longevity is intermittent fasting." When these people are saying things like that, these hardcore research scientists who have studied longevity, the brain works and really understand intermittent fasting, I don't feel the need to then go out and defend intermittent fasting to someone, who has some opinion that they think it isn't good. Because I'm going to trust the scientists, who studied it and are doing it. That's all I have to say about that. So, I am giving you permission, Danielle, to stop listening to the naysayers and do what feels good to your body. That's really all you need to know.

Melanie Avalon: I don't want to say anything unkind, but especially, if it's that analogy or that comparison just doesn't make sense, like, it just doesn't make much sense.

Gin Stephens: There was some analogy someone gave about a car one time and how you needed to keep fueling your car and I'm like, "You don't stop every 20 miles and put more gas in?" No, fill it up and then your drive. I'm like, "That is such a bad analogy." When someone's making really bad analogies, it's like, they don't understand what they're saying. [laughs] That's what I think. So, no, please do not make your baby fast till 2 PM. That is bad. [laughs] But you are not a baby.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly.

Gin Stephens: Okay, now the rest of her question.

Melanie Avalon: The rest, she says, "The second episode also addresses this and her guest, I believe a neuropathy doctor also suggests that 13 hours overnight is good, but extreme fasting is bad, because going too long can spike cortisol, etc. I'm confused, thoughts, keep up the good work, ladies."

Gin Stephens: And again, this sounds it's somebody who doesn't think you should fast for more than 13 hours. If you listen to all the contradictory voices that are out there about any topic, you're going to get so confused. You don't know if you should fast for 16 hours or eat every two hours around the clock. You can really get confused, because no matter what anybody says about help, someone is saying, the 180-degree opposite, literally, about everything when it comes to health. If you're really interested in the health benefits of intermittent fasting, you need to really immerse yourself in podcasts, and books, and experts, who explain those to you. I would avoid the naysayers. And then you need to tune into your own body, because I actually agree with something that that guest said, that extreme fasting is "bad," but I would disagree with the definition of extreme fasting. Maybe this, this naturopathic doctor has experience working with patients, who are over fasting, overexercising, and over restricting.

In that case, if you're fasting 16 hours, which I wouldn't consider extreme, because I fast more than that almost every single day, but I also nourish my body well in my eating window, but if I were doing ultra-marathons, and fasting 16 hours a day, and then eating little tiny diet meals in an eight-hour eating window, 16 hours would be too much fasting. But it's not so much, because it's 16. It's because of everything else. 16 could be extreme fasting, if you are not nourishing your body well and overly working out versus 20:4 is not extreme if then you nourish your body well in your eating window. It's all got to be in context. We don't really know what this doctor, what this background it's coming from. But it's true, that over restriction is not good for our bodies, but to think that fasting is coupled with over restriction is I think the flaw in the thinking.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Context is so, so important. I think we actually talked about this last episode?

Gin Stephens: You talked about cortisol. You sure did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can briefly recap. Yeah, so, basically, it's a stress hormone. It has a really bad reputation. People think, "Oh, cortisol is bad. We never want cortisol," which is just not even true. It's not a bad hormone. Really, no hormones are bad or good. They all have a purpose and they all need to be in the right context. Cortisol is something, for example, that naturally spikes in the morning. We want that spike. That's actually a reason that people often get high blood sugars in the morning. It's the dawn effect and a spike in cortisol. But cortisol has a natural rhythm throughout the day. It can go up in fasting, but the context is important. Cortisol in a fasted state actually helps us burn fat. It actually releases fatty acids and helps us burn them. We shouldn't be scared of cortisol. Cortisol in the context of eating makes us more likely to store fat.

That's why it's really important to not eat in a stressed-out state to have, even a ritual surrounding eating, where you're in a, I don't want to say a meditative state, but we don't want to be just eating on the go and in a stressed-out state. So, fasting can actually help you have a really healthy relationship with cortisol, where you have higher cortisol during the day, you're burning fat. And then well, I'm assuming right now that you're doing a one-meal-a-day situation. But regardless of the window, you have cortisol higher when you're fasting, you're burning fat, and then when you're eating, you're in more of a rest and digest a lower cortisol state. The actual specifics of it is cortisol can make you preferentially store fat as visceral fat in your belly, if it's high while you're eating. So, misconceptions surrounding cortisol.

Gin Stephens: So many, and people just say it like it's--

Melanie Avalon: Fact.

Gin Stephens: Fact. Exactly. Again, I want to just reframe this, Danielle, one more time. You need to listen to your own body and how you feel. If fasting, as you get adjusted, again, get through the adjustment period. If you find yourself feeling better and better over time, trust that. If you're doing something that's bad for your body, you're not going to feel better, and better, and better over time. So, trust how you're feeling, you really can do that. Don't let the other voices get inside your head from people, who are giving the advice like, "Oh, yeah, you shouldn't fast." Do what's your body telling you.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode263 and then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and I think that is all the things.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Great episode. Five years.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Crazy. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

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LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

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Apr 24

Episode 262: Linguistics, ADHD Stimulants, Medication, CGM, Prediabetes, Berberine, Metabolism, Stress Related Weight Gain, Birth Control, And More!

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How Y’all, Youse and You Guys Talk

Welcome to Episode 262 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE!!

Listener Q&A: Sarah - The way you say words

BLUBlox: Go To blublox.com And Use The Code ifpodcast For 15% Off!

Listener Q&A: Rebecca - ADHD meds and elevated blood glucose levels

Methylphenidate has mild hyperglycemic and hypokalemia effects and increases leukocyte and neutrophil counts

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #128 - Dr. Michael Platt

Adrenaline Dominance: A Revolutionary Approach To Wellness

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #48 - Dr. Daniel Amen

FEAL: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Kristi - Weight Gain

PANDEMIC? WHAT'S AN INTERMITTENT FASTER TO DO?

Listener Q&A: Rosie - Those little pills

White Birch Professional Teeth Whitening Serum - Activated White Charcoal

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 262 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens, which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 262 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. It is a beautiful day and I'm loving it.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't been outside yet.

Gin Stephens: Oh, [laughs] It's sunny, and warm, and just the perfect spring day. So, it made me so happy to be out there. If you can walk barefoot outside on the driveway, that's my happiness.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I'm getting flashbacks to childhood. Yes. Do you put a wreath on your door?

Gin Stephens: Only at Christmas.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I have discovered the wonderful world of wreaths on Etsy.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's fine.

Melanie Avalon: Do you ever shop on Etsy?

Gin Stephens: Sometimes, when I need a special pillow, for example. I found this fabric that I loved and I had the name of it. I went to Etsy and sure enough, there was someone selling pillows made out of that fabric for a lot less than I could hire someone to make them. I could make pillows myself, but I no longer have a sewing machine. When we moved the last time, mine didn't make the cut. I'm at the point I'd rather just pay someone to do it for me, but I got pillows on Etsy. I love Etsy.

Melanie Avalon: If you want something very specific, you can find it. I found this amazing. Actually, it might have been a few different companies, but I found one girl that makes handmade wreaths. So, I made Disney-inspired ones for all the seasons.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's really fun. I think I've seen them on Instagram. I know I have seen them on Instagram. [giggles] I have seen your wreaths on Instagram. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I think I've posted all of them except the summer one. Oh, it's exciting.

Gin Stephens: You love the summer one?

Melanie Avalon: It's really pretty. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: What makes it super exciting in Melanie's world?

Melanie Avalon: Have you been to Disneyland?

Gin Stephens: Never Disneyland. Only Disney World.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Have you heard of World of Color?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Are you familiar with the setup of Disneyland?

Gin Stephens: No. I know it's a lot smaller than Disney World. You've been to Disney World, I imagine.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love Disney World.

Gin Stephens: I just know it's smaller. That's all I know about it. It's smaller and it's the original.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so, it's two parks. It's Disneyland and California Adventure. The weird thing about Disneyland, though, is if you've grown up going to Disney World and going to Magic Kingdom, Disneyland is like the same thing. Some of the stuff is the exact same, but then, some of the stuff is slightly different. So, it's like when you're in your dream and something's just off.

Gin Stephens: It's just how here and when I was a teacher, Columbia County where I taught had one elementary school plan that they built for several years, like, every elementary school had that same plan, but they were all slightly different. Where a hallway was they decided, "Oh, that was not a good place for a hallway." They closed it or whatever. You felt it was the same as model as like my elementary school. So, I'd always felt slightly lost. Yeah, I get it.

Melanie Avalon: That's it. It's weird, because you're like, "This is right, but not."

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Well, the house I'm moving into, the whole little neighborhood has exactly the same house plan built over and over, but with different colors. So, I bet when I start meeting people and getting to know them, it's going to feel wacky.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Oh, that's interesting.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The other park is called California Adventure. This comparison is not going to make any sense to you, because you haven't seen it. But there's this show called a World of Color and it is the most magical thing. It's water, and color and they project Disney clips and play music, but the color is the most. It's like the experience of color incarnate in magical fountains of overwhelming epicness. That is what I tried to embrace in my summer wreath.

Gin Stephens: Well, that sounds really pretty. I can't wait to see it. When do you put it out, like, June?

Melanie Avalon: I decided I'd put everything out on the day the season started.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: So, I think I learned this year when the season started.

Gin Stephens: It's not always the same number day. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: What? [laughs] Wait, explain.

Gin Stephens: It's astronomical. It has to do with the position of the Sun and length of the day. I think it can be very one way or another.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. Okay. I was also reflecting on this morning time. Because I was thinking about how we both show up at the time to start this podcast. In theory, when did they decide time? Could it have been different?

Gin Stephens: I guess. They could have divided it differently. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: When did they decide noon?

Gin Stephens: Well, technically, when the Sun is directly overhead, they call that noon. I mean, it does. But it's based on a certain time of the year, I don't know. I just looked up spring, the first day of spring in the northern hemisphere can either be March 19th, March 20th, or March 21st. It has to do with when it's the equinox, which is when at whatever point they used to just-- See, I'm telling you what, teaching elementary school just absolutely lets you know a lot of these things. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It never came up when they decided noon?

Gin Stephens: When they decided? I know it's based on when the Sun is directly overhead at whatever time of the year that is. I don't know. I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: It must have been some day, though, because every day would be slightly different, I assume.

Gin Stephens: It's when they came up with clocks. Once they came up with clocks and they were able to keep the time, of course, they were not accurate. But it was all rough estimate. Until we got to the modern era, there was no conformity, if that makes sense. It varied.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the clocks all around?

Gin Stephens: There was no like-- Here's the time it is everywhere in the world at this exact moment. Before we got to the point where we could communicate from place to place, it's possible every place had a different noon.

Melanie Avalon: Before the advent of railways in the 1800s.

Gin Stephens: See, I just know so many random things.

Melanie Avalon: All time was local. Noon was simply when the Sun was directly overhead wherever you were in what is called solar time.

Gin Stephens: Right. In that one, I just said I didn't know it was the railroad, but that makes sense. I knew there was a reason everyone suddenly synchronized, it makes total sense that it was the railroad. Yeah, time was pretty much like local. And then, they decided this is where it's this-- Whatever that was, that's when they decided, here's what we're going to call noon based on this and then, everybody just went along.

Melanie Avalon: Before that, when you traveled to another town, you would simply change your watch. I learned something else that was determined by railroads that relates to diet.

Gin Stephens: What's that?

Melanie Avalon: It's one of the main reasons we eat muscle meat and not the organs and different parts of the animal. Had to do with shipping and how they kept it cold.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, convenience. That makes sense. A lot of things are convenience related, aren't they?

Melanie Avalon: Yep.

Gin Stephens: But it's easiest to do. Very interesting. See, I just refined my knowledge a little bit more and you learned some new things.

Melanie Avalon: I know. So much to learn.

Gin Stephens: There really is. You realize the things that you don't know, when you start learning them, you're like, "How did I never knew that?"

Melanie Avalon: It's a little bit stressful to think about, because you could pick any one topic and you could probably, literally just study that topic for your entire life.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's what people do. Experts in fields.

Melanie Avalon: You could study leaves and just study leaves.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, Chad studies organic and heterocyclic chemistry. Most people are probably like, "I've never even heard of heterocyclic chemistry."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, never be bored, always something to learn. Anything else new or shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: Well, actually, our first question relates to all of this a little bit and it's not a fasting related question, but we got a really fun email from a listener, because Gin and I will often go on tangents about how we say words the same or differently. Sara emailed us and said, the subject was: "the way you say words. She said, "Hi. Okay, you guys keep talking about the different way you say words. So, have you ever taken the New York Times dialect quiz? It's so fun. You should take it together before or after podcasting, or with friends, because it's fun to see the differences." We both took this. What I thought was so interesting is, Gin, when you were taking it and it shows you all of those words, I immediately picked out my answer and a lot of other words I had never even heard of.

Gin Stephens: I had heard of a lot of them. There weren't very many that were unfamiliar to me, but it was very easy to know which one to choose, which is interesting, because I did grow up in the mountains of Virginia. I wondered how that would impact my results, but it was really funny what it said. It pinpointed me as being from Augusta Richmond County, which is where I was born and where I live right now. But I didn't live here all the time. I was always here, my dad was always here, but my parents got divorced when I was little, and I moved to Virginia, and so, I went to all of elementary school through high school there, went to college in North Carolina, and then, came back here after college, and have been in this area. But I knew, Augusta Richmond County. I was like, "This is bizarre."

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we actually both got Augusta, which is--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: You got Augusta, Montgomery, and Huntsville. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's me. That's me. I got I Augusta, Huntsville, and Montgomery, you got Augusta, Columbus, and Jackson.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But the fact that it pulled out Augusta, I did this in my community in the Delay, Don't Deny Community. If anybody's looking for that community, by the way, ginstephens.com/community. That gets you there. But we did it there and it was so interesting to hear people what they got. They come up with their little place. It was fun to do it as a community.

Melanie Avalon: You did it after receiving this email?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I just popped it up, because we like fun things in the Delay, Don’t Deny Community. I popped it in and said, "What do you all get?" People liked sharing what they got. I shared the link there. The people from Canada, they were like, "Well--" It gave them, like, they're closest to US. One person from Canada got, I don't know, somewhere in Washington State, because that's the closest. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. I'm glad that-- Sara, thank you for sharing it. It was fun to do, and fun to share with the community, and apparently, we say things pretty similarly, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: I know. It was weird for me, because I grew up in Atlanta, and then Memphis, and then LA. I didn't get anything by there. Yeah, Augusta is the closest. So, for listeners, we'll put a link in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: I feel Atlanta is right in the middle of all of that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But it's funny that both of us got Augusta and you didn't get Atlanta or neither of us got Atlanta. I think Atlanta says, things all weird. Sorry, Atlanta. [laughs] That's what all I can come up with. Or, Atlanta is also maybe more of a mixture of people from all over. It's very metropolitan. I wonder what the Atlanta dialect would be. Now, I'm curious, because I know there's people in Atlanta from really everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's true. Actually, my Huntsville is it's close-ish to Memphis.

Gin Stephens: I'm surprised I didn't get any Virginia in there.

Melanie Avalon: I'm surprised I didn't get Memphis.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's funny. Because some of those words-- There was a couple times, I was like, "Between a couple--" I'm like, "Well, I know what I probably should say based on where I live," but I actually say these other words, I'm going to pick it and I did. I always picked what I really said.

Melanie Avalon: It was fun to see words that had never occurred to me that it was a thing. The question like, "Do you say icing or frosting?" All the options for that, what did you put for that?

Gin Stephens: I think I put either as right.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. It never occurred to me that they were different. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I wish they'd had dressing and stuffing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that would have been a good one.

Gin Stephens: That wasn't there, which do you say?

Melanie Avalon: I would say both. If I could do a sliding scale, it would lean more towards stuffing, but I don't mind either.

Gin Stephens: See, we totally say dressing, because we don't stuff it. In our family, we don't stuff the bird. We don't stuff it in the bird. We've had big debates around the Thanksgiving table about y'all better not call this stuffing, [laughs] because stuffing is stuffed in, dressing is on the side. If I bake a turkey, I stuff it with chopped up onions, and garlic, and aromatics to flavor the bird, but we don't take-- I actually then take that out and make gravy out of it whatever was in there while I cooked goes into the gravy to flavor the gravy. I make some really good gravy, but the dressing is cooked on the side and a casserole dish.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the way it's always been for us. What did you say for fireflies and lightning bugs?

Gin Stephens: We say lightning bugs.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I said fireflies and lightning bugs. It's just interesting, because for listeners, when you take it for these answers, there'll be 10 options. Some of them I had never--

Gin Stephens: Which is why it's so odd that we both got Augusta.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The people in the community got so many different things. It's clearly not everyone gets Augusta. We're like, I got the exact town in California where I live. So, fascinating. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: And when you get your results, it's also really a little bit interactive. You can see all these different versions of your results.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and it shows you what you're not like. I'm super not like what was in Michigan or something.

Melanie Avalon: I was not like Milwaukee, Grand Rapids, and Detroit.

Gin Stephens: Yes. Oh, I am not like Minneapolis, St. Paul, Detroit, oh, and Seattle. That's where I was the most different. I was the most different Seattle, Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Detroit.

Melanie Avalon: I was laughing out loud with some of them. I don't know what will I do, know why, because there'll be the question and there'll be all the answers, and then, one of them would just say, "I have no word for this." That was me for some of them. Oh, good times. So, listeners, we'll put a link to this in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: And have fun with it, make your whole family take it and see if y'all get the same thing, that would be fun.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm going to email this to-- or text this to my family after this.

Gin Stephens: That will be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: So fun.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into some fasting related questions?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely. We have a question from Rebecca and the subject is: "ADHD meds and elevated blood glucose levels." She says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie, I was formally diagnosed with ADHD last year and I was prescribed a well-known stimulant medication after some discussions with my doctor. I've been taking the medication only on weekdays for about five to six months and have seen huge improvements in my quality of life and mental health. I am 29 years old, have a late-night eating window of four to five hours usually starting to eat anywhere between 6 PM to 8 PM. Eat mainly Whole Foods cooked at home, beets, fruits, veggies, grains, etc., but do enjoy an occasional restaurant meal some weekends or a dessert here and there. I have been clean fasting since November of 2019, lost 69 pounds, and have kept it off. Yay. I'm also relatively active. I stand all day at my standing desk, move around frequently, and then, go for about a three to four mile walk with my dog every day after work before I eat my first meal.

Last year before the ADHD meds, I used my NutriSense CGM, thank you for the rec, Melanie, for three months and learned so, so much about my body. I got the itch to do it again and so, I ordered more, popped one of those bad boys on, and was shocked to see how different my levels were from last year. I'm now on my third CGM this time around and I've seen consistent numbers or patterns in all three CGMs, so, I know it isn't just a fluke. Before my fasting blood glucose levels in the morning were averaging in the low 100s to 90s, and then, throughout the day, as I got deeper into my fast, they would steadily drop into the 80s, and then, sometimes into the 70s. Then, when I ate, my glucose levels would usually go to 110 to 130 and would almost always stay under 140. If I did have a larger glucose spike, I would recover relatively quickly. Now, it is completely different. Even though, I clean fast all day, my glucose levels almost never get below 100. I wake up and my glucose levels are usually around 120 to 130, then, I take the medication, and my glucose levels go up to 130 to 140 or even higher, and stay up there for about five hours, and then, will finally start to decrease. But even in the descent, it never gets below a 100, usually not even below 115 until I go for my daily walk.

After my walk, my levels will drop to around 100 or in the high 90s if I'm lucky. Then, when I eat, my glucose levels spike like crazy, almost always at least to 150 or 160, or sometimes higher if I eat anything even remotely higher carb, and then, will stay mostly high throughout the night while I sleep. Sleep average is around 135, but will oscillate above and below this number throughout the night. I've tried to eat right before my daily walk, so that the exercise helps to blunt the glucose spike of my first meal. But if I do this, one, I am forcing myself to eat when I'm not hungry and two, my blood glucose levels never get below 110, because I'm not exercising fasted. Any thoughts on this? What is better? Blunting the spike with a walk, but never getting below 110 or taking a walk getting my glucose levels down and then, eating and having a larger spike?

On the weekends, when I don't take the medication, I thought that my levels would go back to the way they were before but they don't. They are still about the same as during the week, but maybe slightly better. I assume this means that the stimulants are still affecting my glucose levels, even after two days of not taking them. Naturally, I was stunned and slightly scared about what I was seeing. So, I googled it. And apparently, stimulant medications are known to raise blood glucose levels. I'm so surprised that I've never heard this or that it isn't more widely discussed, especially because the effects, at least in my case are quite significant. Why did these stimulant medications cause the higher blood glucose levels throughout the day during my fast and then, the more exaggerated spikes when I eat my meals? What is the mechanism behind this? Is it the same mechanism behind what raises our blood glucose when we eat or is it different? What does this mean for insulin? Are my insulin levels raised this entire time, too? What are the possible implications? Is this something that could result in diabetes? Do these numbers mean I'm potentially pre-diabetic?

The medicine truly has made a massively positive impact on my life, but I also don't know how these higher glucose levels will affect my health long term. Any helpful info or advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping that this discussion will make other people with ADHD aware of this critically underdiscussed issue. By the way, I do plan to talk to my doctor about this, but don't necessarily have high hopes, since neither my primary care physician or my psychiatrist said anything about the topic when I started the meds. Thank you both so much for everything you do. You have no idea how much you have impacted my life. red heart, Rebecca."

Melanie, this was so interesting and I think it shows just how much goes on in our bodies, but before people had CGMs, people had no idea.

Melanie Avalon: I know.

Gin Stephens: This is what this is showing me. It's showing me that this has probably been going on for so many people, but people just don't know, because they don't see the data, but Rebecca has the data.

Melanie Avalon: That is such a good point. Yeah, for listeners, we talk about CGMs a lot, but they are continuous glucose monitors, and you put them on your arm, and they measure the interstitial fluid of your cells, and give you essentially 24/7 view of your blood sugar levels. Like Gin just said, they can be really eye opening, because you can realize things that you had no idea, or affecting you, or that your blood sugar levels are reacting to diet, or lifestyle, or exercise and you don't even know. What's so interesting is, the difference between hyperglycemia and hypoglycemia, I feel people can more often become aware of hypoglycemia, because you can get really symptomatic from that.

Gin Stephens: You feel it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But hyperglycemia not necessarily. Rebecca, thank you so much for your question. I thought I knew what was going on here, and then, I googled it, and it was what I thought. With stimulant medications, well, it's interesting, because some studies actually find that stimulant medications reduce blood sugar, but a lot show that they can increase blood sugar, which is what you're experiencing. I'll put a link into the show notes to one interesting study. That's a really long title. It's methylphenidate has mild hyperglycaemic and hypokalemia effects, and increases leukocyte and neutrophil counts. Rebecca actually told us the medication she's takin. I'm not going to comment on what she's taking specifically, but there are a few different types of stimulant medications, and they likely have a similar effect in this regard.

As stimulants they activate our body's stress response, our sympathetic nervous system. They can encourage the release of cortisol, and epinephrine, and norepinephrine. And that signaling to the body can encourage the body to release glucose from the liver, because it interprets the situation is needing fuel, so, like the fight or flight response. Some people, who are on these medications, it basically just creates a situation, where your liver is consistently keeping your blood sugar levels higher. The study I just mentioned, and then, it also summarized a few other studies, and it found that in general, there's around 22% increase in blood glucose levels for people on specifically methylphenidate, which is Ritalin, I think. So, yes, that is probably what is happening. To answer your questions, what is the mechanism? It's the liver releasing glucose. Is it the same mechanism behind what raises our blood glucose when we eat or is it different? It's different in that when we eat, we can immediately get a blood glucose spike from what we just ate rather than what was already stored in the liver and/or gluconeogenesis. The liver creating new glucose, because it needs it. When you're eating, it can be coming from what you ate, actually, in addition to the liver. So, it's a little bit different.

What does this mean for insulin, are my insulin levels raised this entire time, too? Quite possibly. You might want to actually get a fasted insulin test, because our pancreas can respond to high blood sugar levels and pump out insulin to try to reduce them. It is possible that you are releasing insulin to try to bring down those levels, but your liver just keeps pumping out glucose. That actually is not good and that's why there's a transition from being nondiabetic to prediabetic to diabetic as you are transitioning, as your body is constantly experiencing these higher blood sugar levels, your pancreas is working to keep them down with insulin, but if you just keep on that train, it can just get worse and worse, and so, you can end up diabetic. Is this something that could result in diabetes, do these numbers mean I'm potentially prediabetic? Technically, by the levels, yes, you are prediabetic because a fasting blood sugar level of 99 or less is considered normal. Prediabetic is 100 to 125. You definitely fall within that range. Over 126 or higher indicates you have diabetes and she said that, what is it during the day? Is it above--? Now, when she wakes up, the glucose levels are usually around 120 to 130 and then, they go up to 130 or 140. Actually, your levels right now are diabetic levels. I would not take this lightly. I'm not trying to scare you. This is empowering reframe. This is very empowering that you've done the CGMs and you've realized this. I would probably find an endocrinologist to look into this more. Also, maybe, okay, I'm not a doctor. I'm not saying change your medication. I would speak with your doctor though and maybe see if he can reduce your medication. I don't know what dosage you're on. Maybe that's a possibility.

Something I will say and I feel I might get negative feedback for this, but I had Dr. Michael Platt on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast and he has a book called Adrenaline Dominance. He talks a lot about this, and he's a big fan of progesterone, and his go to method, he has helped a lot of people with ADHD actually through progesterone supplementation. I'm not saying to quit your meds and do progesterone, but I'm just saying, because if this continues the way you are right now, this is not a good thing. Maybe looking into alternatives, I know that the medication is really helping you and so that's amazing. But maybe if you can work with your doctor to get on the lower dose, or maybe try a different one, and/or find some other options that might work. In the meantime, other things that you could do to help with this-- Her situation is that, when she exercises fasted, it brings it down. But then, she eats, and it spikes, and so, she's saying, "Could she eat and then exercise after to reduce that spike?" I would not eat to lower your blood sugar. I would not make that the goal of eating. Actually, Marty Kendall, his whole thing, is it data driven fasting? Oh, which speaking of tangent, if I may. He randomly DMed me this week and was like, "You've got to have Mark--" Is it Schatzker, The Dorito Effect?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, he's great. I love that book. Have you read the book?

Melanie Avalon: No, but you had mentioned it, and then people keep mentioning it, and then I actually saw a friend, and he mentioned it, and then I came home, and Marty Kendall was like, "You need to interview this guy."

Gin Stephens: There's the universe telling you. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I actually had an email from him this morning. I haven't read it yet, because I emailed him last night, but I think he is coming on. So, that'll be exciting. Marty Kendall's thing and actually, Cynthia Thurlow in her new book, Intermittent Fasting Transformation also talks about this. They are a huge, huge proponent of measuring your blood sugar levels before eating and not eating until your blood sugar levels are low. It's actually the opposite of what you are proposing, because you're proposing eating to lower them or eating to lower them and exercising after. Maybe you aren't proposing to actually eat to lower them, but you're going to move your exercise to afterwards. But they are a huge proponent of not eating when your levels are high. I would say, again, this is all just my thoughts and opinions, but I would exercise before and after. I would not switch. I would do as much as you can to help mitigate this. Definitely keep wearing a CGM and this might be something where I would really, really-- I know you're eating Whole Foods and it sounds like a really "healthy diet" and all of that stuff. But I would play around with that because you do notice you said that when you have a higher carb meal, it spikes even higher. This might be a situation, where low carb might be something that you might want to consider and see how you react with low carb.

And then, also, I would really suggest something like berberine, an herb that rivals metformin in the clinical literature. You could also do metformin, I suppose. Metformin, the pharmaceutical and berberine, the herb have very impressive effects on lowering blood sugar levels. Berberine is debated on how it does it, there's a lot of potential mechanisms. It's possible that it actually discourages the liver from engaging in that process I mentioned from releasing the liver or from gluconeogenesis creating new glucose and/or, probably and it seems to encourage or stimulate AMPK, which is normally or stimulated in the fasted state, and helps the body take up blood sugar, and burn body fat. It creates a state of the body thinking there's like a fuel deficiency, which is a little bit ironic, because the stress hormones that I was talking about also are similar, because the body thinks it needs energy and it's releasing blood sugar. But something like berberine or metformin is going to have a different effect. It's actually going to help lower blood sugar. So, that was a lot--

Oh, also the half-life of the stimulants can be around nine to 14 hours and potentially, 72 hours to be cleared. Like you picked up on, that's likely why you're still having issues over the weekend, because it's still in your system. I would not take this lightly. I would talk to your doctor, find an endocrinologist, wear CGM, and play with your dietary choices, try low carb, try berberine, and move around, exercise more. Cryotherapy might also help that can help lower blood sugar levels. Yeah, Gin, thoughts?

Gin Stephens: But I don't know how to add very much to that. [giggles] But what I would like to say is, this just really illustrates how things that we put in our body, this medication changes how our bodies function and what happens. Thank goodness for CGMs pointing out what's happening in her body. She now has the knowledge, and can address it, and talk to her doctors about what would be right for her if there might be another medication option that could give her the same mental health benefits that she's looking for, and not the negative effects that she's seeing. Knowledge is power. Again, it's just fascinating to think about how many people are taking so many medications and they're additive they add up. You take one, and then it gives you another issue related to that medication, and then you have to take something else to counteract that, and then you take something else, and it just grows and grows, which is why I think most people in America are taking multiple medications. I can remember, even before I was an intermittent faster, I had fibroids, and I had to have them surgically removed, and this is in maybe 2013, and I was obese. But I went to the pre-op treatment, or the pre-op appointment and they're like, "All right, what medications are you on?" I'm like, "None." [laughs] And they were like, "What?"

Somebody's coming in and especially someone obese like me having surgery, but was on zero medications. Every person kept asking me, "Are you sure?" I'm like, "Yeah, I promise you. I'm not on any." But the way that they reacted to me being on no medications in my 40s was eye opening. We're not meant to just need a lot of medications and I'm not saying anything about her not needing it for ADHD, clearly. I'm not saying she shouldn't take it, but it's just interesting. Like you mentioned, there might be a natural approach that could help our brain. With Will, I talked about in Clean(ish), cleaning up his diet. We kept him off medications. I'm sure he would have been diagnosed with all sorts of things had we not changed his diet. We took out artificial flavors, artificial colors, preservatives. Again, that's nothing to do with Rebecca's situation. The brain is complicated. You had Dr. Amen on your show before? I love Dr. Amen and the work that he does. I actually first saw him speak in person. It was a Brain-Based Learning Conference in 2006 in San Diego and I was fortunate enough to get to go there. My elementary school sent four of us to this conference and he had a session on the brain and ADHD, and all the different ways the brain can look different types of ADHD presentations. It was just fascinating, and I bought his book, and then I got his book about the brain and weight loss. Fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I really, really love his book. He does the brain SPECT scans. I actually got one at his clinic here in Atlanta, which was really cool. But yeah, and I was just googling the stats. This one study from 2018 said that-- This is a government study. It said that 6.6% of US adults use prescription stimulants in 2017. Yeah, just to bring it full circle. I bet so many people are experiencing this and they just wouldn't know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, if that many people are taking stimulants? Wow. What was the percent you said?

Melanie Avalon: The one I was just looking at said 6.6% of Americans in 2017 had used stimulant medication. I don't know if that's-- The first thing that comes up says that prescription stimulants 2.9 million people that's for 2020. Regardless, it's not a small number. This is something, though, that I think, Rebecca, we're happy that you found this out, I would definitely look into all of those things that I was talking about. And let us know, let us know.

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Melanie Avalon: All righty. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Christie and the subject is: "weight gain" and Christie says, "Hi, there. I have been doing IF for short while, probably about seven months. I was doing the Dr. Bernstein diet as well from January until March and lost about 14 pounds." Do you know what is the Dr. Bernstein diet? Do you know, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I don't really know.

Melanie Avalon: I just looked it up and it is a low-carb diet. Appropriately enough, it says an engineer by training Bernstein pioneered blood glucose self-monitoring and the tight control of blood sugar that is now accepted as the standard treatment of diabetes. She says, "I was doing the Dr. Bernstein diet as well from January until March and lost about 14 pounds. I normally work out five mornings a week at Orangetheory fitness. Since COVID hit, I have gained so much weight. All the weight I have lost and probably another five pounds despite being more strict with my eating window. I used to be 16:8, but now, my fasting hours are 17 and a half to 18 hours. I usually open my window around 12:30 and close it at 6:30. I still work out five days a week with at-home workouts, but they are not as good. I know for a fact, I'm not eating as clean as I should, but I do still eat relatively healthy with lots of vegetables and fruits. With that said, I do have a sweet tooth. I'm wondering if my body is reacting to having gone from such a restricted diet to now, basically, eating what I want. Have I messed up my metabolism? If so, how can I restart it? I am a 42-year-old mother of two, who is a teacher consultant and under a lot of stress right now trying to get materials out to our amazing educators in our district. I'm feeling so gross, I need to get this figured out, help. Thanks so much," Christie.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, we look this one up and it turns out this one came in April of 2020. This was the height of when we were all in that pandemic stress. There was so much stress related weight gain going on during that particular window of time and I was still on Facebook, I was in the Facebook groups. What Christie wrote in right here, we were getting posts in the groups every single day that were exactly like this. It was, "Help, I've been doing fasting, it's been working, all of a sudden, I'm gaining weight, encouraged me at the time." I was like, "I got to write a blog post about this and talk about it." If you go to ginstephens.com, The Blog Directory, I actually released a blog post at that time that talked about the effect that stress can have on weight. Basically, you can gain weight based on being super stressed, your body's like, "Okay, we're going to have to pack on some pounds, because something really terrible is going on." I talk about more of it in the blog post. You can take a look there. But all this to say, it is completely normal to find that if you're going through something exceptionally stressful, weight gain is likely to come along with that.

Now, with Christie, I would say, part of it is that physiological part that I talked about where your body starts storing more based on the stress response, but the other part is and I'm reading between the lines of Christie's post that she has changed up what she's eating and says, she's not eating as clean as she should, and having a sweet tooth, and she's basically eating whatever she wants. I found that to be true for me during the early days of the pandemic as well. I was having cocktail hour every day and baking more, and I have a little window creep, and my honesty pants started to get a little tight. I pulled out a fasting app and went back to that. I'm like, "I need a little bit more structure. I need to stop this one to creep in. I need to just nip that in the bud. And also, I do not need to be baking cinnamon rolls, and Irish soda bread, and cookies all the time." I knew that that was not helping my body, so, I stopped doing all that. Now, am I still going to eat cinnamon rolls here and there? Yeah. But I didn't need to have something new coming on every day. Basically, I went back to how I had been eating, my honesty pants fit again, that's how it worked out, and I didn't need to keep using the app.

Even though, the pandemic stress of April 2020 is behind us, there's still a lot of stress in the world going on. There's always something new, especially, if you're watching the news, something new to be stressed out about. It's almost we're in this constant state of fight or flight. If you are like Christie, finding that you're more stressed and suddenly, you're having a different weight gain than you had before, number one, examine your window, examine if you've really changed what you're eating. And if so, be really honest with yourself and you may need to make some tweaks there. But also understand, you may need to do some mindful things to get your stress levels down. You need to take some time for yourself easier said than done. If you've got family, small kids, job with lots of responsibilities, but you need to carve out some time for self-care, whatever that looks like for you. Even if it's getting up a little earlier and having meditation, or yoga, or prayer, or taking a walk around the block, or whatever feels like self-care to you, so that you can let your body know, "Ah, I'm going to be okay." Because that makes a huge difference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's great. Actually, it loops in a little bit to Rebecca's question just as far as their physiological responses to our bodies being in a perceived stress state. Rebecca's question, it was taking a stimulant medication that was telling her body to be in fight or flight mode with the COVID situation and stress from life, it can have that same effect. Actually, that was something I forgot to mention answering Rebecca's question was, one of the studies was looking at why there is this increase in hyperglycemia. So, blood sugar from the stimulant medications. It theorized that it might be unique to the individual and their own stress response.

Gin Stephens: There's that bio individuality, again. Some people drop weight when they're really stressed. It's very, very, very, very different from person to person, but I was choosing soothing foods. Like I said, the cinnamon rolls and stuff, because your body drives you to that. It's like, "Are you gaining weight, because you're eating for or are you eating more because of the stress?" But whatever it is, it's a very natural biological response driving you to eat those foods.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. Oh, this might help explain, because it can seem confusing, because the fasted state is in theory, it's releasing adrenaline, and it can release cortisol, and it can also be that state of needing fuel. How is that different from these other manifestations where we don't get health benefits? The context is just so important. Cortisol, for example, when we release cortisol fasted, it can actually help our body free up fat stores and release glucose to burn. But it can have a beneficial effect in burning through our bodies stored energy, but if we have high cortisol and then, we eat, it actually encourages fat storage. So, people often say, high cortisol levels create, or lead to fat gain, or weight gain, but it's always context dependent.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's great, because we hear that all the time from people like, "Yeah, but fasting's going to raise my cortisol. I'm going to gain a lot of weight."

Melanie Avalon: The key is, actually, I'm interviewing this week, Thomas DeLauer and he talks about this a lot in his book. But basically, cortisol while fasted can be a great thing, because it will help you burn body fat. Cortisol, while eating is not a good thing. He talks about the importance of when you're breaking your fast, making sure that your cortisol levels are reduced. You can do that by mindfulness practices like Gin was talking about, meditation, breathing, but he also talks about supplements like magnesium or even salt can help reduce cortisol. So, yes, it's all very important to take all the context into account. And also, Gin touched on this and it was something I was going to touch on, too, and I thought you did a nice job of this, Gin, but Christie definitely is giving-- Again, this was a while ago. Maybe it's resolved. I'd love to hear how it has gone for you Christie. I feel it's possible that there are things that you might be aware that you're turning to food more for stress relief rather than nourishment. I don't know. I was looking at how she says, I'm feeling so gross and that feeling of grossness from food that can often come from turning to foods that would make you feel gross, if that makes sense. I think language can be very revealing. I just really. I think it'd be hard to feel gross from food if it's eating purely just for nourishment, if that makes sense. Do you have any thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I would love to hear about how Christie's doing now. Again, that period of time, the panicked Facebook posts were coming in left and right. That's why I wrote that blog post just because people who had been maintaining for a long time, suddenly were gaining. They're like, "Is intermittent fasting stopped working?" I'm like, "That's not what happens." Intermittent fasting doesn't stop working. It's always "working behind the scenes," but it's not like a magic bullet when other things are starting to go out of whack.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Gin Stephens: All right. We have a question from Rosie and the subject is: "those little pills." "Hi, Gin, hi, Melanie. My name is Rosie and I live in London. I have recently begun my IF lifestyle and so found your fabulous podcast, I have binged up to Episode 45 in the last week and I am loving it. I started with a 16:8 window, but over the last three weeks, it has naturally shrunk to a 19:5. I'm interested to see how this changes when I am no longer furloughed from work. Anyway, to my question, how does IF work with contraceptive pills? I have recently changed back to pills from the contraceptive implant due to the lockdown. I can't get it replaced. So, needs must." That's a very British way of saying it. [laughs] "Should I be taking the pills during my window, are they okay to pop in the morning as I do my makeup, my old routine. I know some can spike hunger in a big way and I'm worried that I'm going to disrupt myself massively. Thank you so much for taking the time to do the research required to check this out and forgiving me a new lease on my eating life," Rosie.

Melanie Avalon: And then, she followed up to say, "I can confirm that my pill is making me hungrier and more sleepy, which is annoying as it is making IF so much harder. I know I am in adjustments. So, hopefully a month down the line, it will be much easier." But yes. To answer the question, you can take your birth control pills fasted or not. I would just suggest, which is sounds like what Rosie is doing. If I mean, obviously go by the, what's the word? What it says to do on the bottle? The prescribed method of taking it, I would just experiment to find when taking it works the most seamlessly with your fasting. Because this ties into the whole theme of today's episode that these things are going to have profound effects on our body's physiology. So, we have to work with that and adjust accordingly. Any thoughts about that, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, just honestly, take it when it works for you. If you take it and you feel fine, that's fine. But if you take it, and then you're starving, and you feel shaky and nauseous, then change it. Take it at a different time based on how you feel. Now, she has more to her question. She said, "I was just wondering, I am mainlining black coffee, and I'm getting worried about coffee breath, and staining on my teeth. Any hints and tips? My peppermint oil is in the post. I mentioned the charcoal tooth powders to my other half and he was appalled and basically forbid me from putting black powder in his shiny white bathroom. I am incredibly clumsy and messy, so I can see his point. Thanks, again, and thank you so much for all your super advice. I am now on Episode 54, and I am both excited to catch up and sad that I'll only get one episode a week. Ha, ha."

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Thank you for your question, Rosie. Yes, that black charcoal powder, there's like-- I don't know. I think there's two things that I've experimented with it just get everywhere and that would be activated charcoal powder. Spirulina and chlorella just is not easy. There are alternatives. I actually really, really I've been using-- I'll put a link to in the show notes. It's White Birch Professional Teeth Whitening Serum. It's something that you brush your teeth with. I really like that. Also, on Amazon, there are a lot of the professional at home teeth whitening kits and it's where you put this gel. Normally, it's a peroxide type gel in a tray, and you put in this light thing in your mouth, and those actually work really, really well. Because I know the dentists, they can charge a ton of money to basically give you the same thing. I found a lot on Amazon that work really well. But there is the potential for sensitivity, so you might want to take that into account. I like to do oil pulling every morning. I really, really like that. That's where you swish around in oil like coconut oil. Some people use other things. I actually use MCT oil for about 20 minutes. I found that really, really helpful. Some of the toothpastes have whitening things for them. But yes, this is definitely something that happens. Gin, do you have advice?

Gin Stephens: Well, no. As far as the coffee breaths, she's got peppermint oil. Well, I think we're good to go. But yeah, I was the same way about the charcoal. I was making a giant mess. I'm like, "Okay, no."

Melanie Avalon: It gets everywhere.

Gin Stephens: That's just so funny. It gave me a little flashback of remembering it like, "Yep."

Melanie Avalon: But there are some toothpastes that have-- The serum that I mentioned has white charcoal in it and then, there are some toothpastes that are made with charcoal and so that--

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've seen that. Well, you have your teeth all black, it's crazy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I know. I know. My problem used to be I use to get major stains from fruit, from the blueberries. Very, very bad. So, okay. That'd be something that you would think, this will be something if somebody could invent something that fix this problem with coffee stains. Think about how well that would. So, you think there would be something.

Gin Stephens: There are a lot of products out there that are targeted to coffee stains.

Melanie Avalon: Something preventative that somehow allows you to minimize coffee stain, like, when you're using straws, but you can't use straws with coffee. I just wonder if there's something out there that could-- I don't know. I'm going to think about it. All right. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode262 and you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

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Apr 17

Episode 261: Weight Watchers, Calorie Counting, Feeling Cold During Fasting, Food Induced Thermogenesis, Arthritis Pain, Dental Health, Oral Microbiome, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #122 - R Blank

Welcome to Episode 261 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Detra - Weight Watchers?

Listener Q&A: Tyloria - Why do I get so cold during IF

Lower core body temperature and greater body fat are components of a human thrifty phenotype

Core body temperature, energy expenditure, and epinephrine during fasting, eucaloric feeding, and overfeeding in healthy adult men: evidence for a ceiling effect for human thermogenic response to diet

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Listener Q&A: Sherri - Fasting length

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 261 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 261 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fantastic. I've got some very exciting news.

Melanie Avalon: I think I know what it is and I'm excited to hear.

Gin Stephens: We are moving.

Melanie Avalon: Again? [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, look, it's been over two years since we moved. It feels like we just moved. But by the time we get moved, it will have been over two and a half years in this house. [sighs] We only made eight-tenths of a mile. We're moving out of town, we're moving to South Carolina, and we're moving to the beach, and I am so excited. We found a house this week, and we're under contract, and now, we just need to sell our house, and move, and we're downsizing this time for real, which is thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: Because last time you were, too.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wanted to downsize last time, but I couldn't find the right house to downsize into. We upsized. We ended up in a 4,900 square foot house. Okay, nobody judge, but [laughs] now that we've been here. Going to the beach and being in our little tiny cottage, that's 900 and something square feet, I've realized how little I really need. The house we're buying is 2,700 square feet. It's 2,200 square feet smaller. So, not quite half the size, but similar. Almost half. But just slightly more than half is what I'm trying to say. I am getting rid of so many things. Here's a tip for our listeners, who probably all know this already if they're like me, but have an estate sale, get an estate sale company to do your moving sale. They sell everything that you don't want to take.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's fantastic. I don't have to-- Anything, I don't want to take, literally, anything. I just don't pack it and then, I leave.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa.

Gin Stephens: And then, they're doing an estate sale with everything else that I don't take.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Wait, wait, so wait. So, you just pack and leave, and then leave, and then they do everything?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We arrange it around the closing of the house and we're tentatively on the schedule, because we don't have a closing set yet, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, what about the stuff you leave that's not sellable. They toss it?

Gin Stephens: The company that we are using, they're just a local Augusta company that does a couple of these every month and they have a contract with someone, who buys them out at the end anything that doesn't sell, and they tell them how much the buyout is going to be. So, it's like, "All right, we got this much leftover, you're going to give us this much money for it," and the people say, "Okay." They don't like donate or anything. I know another company that we talked, too. They just donate what isn't sold and I'm like, "Well, I don't. It depends on how much that would be." But this company, they have that relationship with the company that does the buyout, and they always buy it out, and they don't argue about the price. They just pay what they say, because it's good stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Hmm. Why did my family not do that? Oh, wait, wait, so wait. Okay, I know so little about moving. How does it affect the next person moving into your house?

Gin Stephens: Not at all. They just move in after the sale.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Why didn't my mother not do this?

Gin Stephens: Maybe she didn't think about it, because I've always thought of estate sales as being like, when somebody dies, you have an estate sale. But someone in our neighborhood just a matter of note some point last year, had an estate sale. It was a giant house that's a really old house and it was like this mansion amazing house from, I don't know, hundred years old, beautiful house. They were having an estate sale and I was like, "I just want to see that house." [laughs] So, we went to the estate sale. They're actually moving to the lake. So, they were downsizing and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't even know people did that."

Melanie Avalon: That's a very helpful tip for moving people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's very exciting and we don't need so many of the things. I'm not going to have a formal dining room and I'm not going to have-- It's just not going to be any formal spaces. Just very casual, beachy living. We'll need to get some new stuff, because not everything we have is going to travel. But we're taking stuff out of the den, and stuff out of the master bedroom, and then our personal items. Today, I packed the books I want to take with me. You can't even tell that I packed them, because the library, and the bookshelves, and the halls are still fully stocked with books.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Well, that's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It is exciting. Anyway, so many changes. Chad's retiring, Will's coming with us. So, it's going to be nice. I have a room, that's going to be my podcast studio and my office. It's on the third floor of the house and it's the only room up on the third floor. And it's just going to be for me up there. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't an attic?

Gin Stephens: It's not an attic. There's attics on either side of it. It's in the little peak of the roof and I guess, they could have turned it into an attic, but instead, they turned it into a bedroom with a bathroom, and then you have attic access and a closet in there.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool. Well, keep us updated. That's exciting.

Gin Stephens: It's very exciting. I can't believe it's happening. Anyway, hopefully, send positive thoughts for sale. Masters week as we're recording this in a couple of weeks. Obviously, before it comes out, but Masters week is here in Augusta and how sales usually take off right after Masters, because people in Augusta don't really think about moving till after Masters because they rent.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Like all my neighbors. The neighbor across the street, who is now mowing. If anyone can hear mowing, they didn't rent, but we didn't rent, but everybody else on all the sides of us. A lot of the neighbors rent. We have a golfer staying next door.

Melanie Avalon: A famous golfer?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Nice.

Gin Stephens: I cannot reveal who it is, [laughs] but it's funny all week in Augusta. You see a lot of Mercedes Benz driving around, because a lot of people come to town, businessmen come, and it's just a different kind of week.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool.

Gin Stephens: So, what's up with you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I have a very exciting announcement. I think I announced this on the last episode, but I was fuzzy on the details. Now, I have all the details and this is perfect timing, because this ends tomorrow, if you're listening on the day that this episode comes out. We officially launched subscriptions for my serrapeptase supplement. I've all the details. It's very exciting. It's the biggest discount we have had yet on the serrapeptase. You get it 25% off, and not only do you get it 25% off, you get 25% off for life, because that's how it works. It actually not only do you save money, but it saves on time, and it helps support sustainability of the planet, which is super exciting to me. That's because the way we set it up is you get three bottles every four months. It saves on shipping, and emissions, and all of that stuff. You can pause or cancel at any time. There's literally nothing to worry about. My partner originally had it set up that you had to at least wait one or two cycles, I think before canceling, but I was like, "No, no, no, I want to have it pause or cancel anytime." Yeah, there's really nothing to lose. So, I'm really excited.

Oh, by ending tomorrow, so, we'll have the subscriptions as an option ongoing and the subscriptions will always be discounted, but it's not going to be 25%. If you want that, sign up right now. You do get that 25% for life unless you-- If you cancel and then rejoin, then you'll rejoin a whatever the current discount is, which will not be 25%. Yeah, that's my big announcement. Just for listeners who are not familiar, although I feel you're probably overwhelmingly familiar by now, but serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. You take it in the fasted state. It's very fasting friendly and it helps break down problematic proteins in your body. It can really help anything where your body is reacting to proteins. So, that's why it can be really good for allergies, clearing sinuses, brain fog, scar tissue, reducing it. There have been studies showing it can help reduce cholesterol, and break down amyloid plaque, and help with wound healing, and it's just really, really all the things. So, that's the thing.

I know people are eagerly awaiting my magnesium and that will be the next big thing and it's not that far away. We're in the very final process right now of locking down everything. My last baby teaser, which I can talk about more in the future, but I'm really moving forward with the EMF blocking product I want to make where you can put your phone on your nightstand at night and still receive calls. You don't have to put in airplane mode, but you will be protected from the EMF coming from that. Because so many people sleep with their phones. I'm very wary and concerned about our exposure to EMFs in general. But if I were to think about everything, I think probably the most problematic daily or nightly thing that people are experiencing is at night when they're sleeping with their phone right by their heads. So, I'm very, very excited. So, it's all the things, all my little entrepreneur stuff.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I really think that our house, I think I've talked about this before. The master bedroom is right next to where all the electrical comes in. I won't tell that to anyone looking at the house. Hey, everyone, check out where the electricity comes into the house right by the--, no, anyway. It's just something I never would have thought of before.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: But it's right by the master.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Even with me, the electrical panel for my apartment is in my bedroom. I purposely set up my bed. It's on the opposite side of the room, but still, I think it can have a huge impact on a lot of people and they might not even realize.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's probably true. And now, I'm like, "Where's it coming into the new house?" [laughs] I may have to look, plug and see where that is. I think all the lines are buried in this house, so that should help a lot and it definitely won't be by the master, because it's a raised house, the bottom floor, it's garage, and then there's a lower level living down there, but the master bedroom is up. The main living level is really the second floor. That's where the kitchen, and the living room, and the master, they're right in the middle.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Actually, there's something you might want to get for your house. I don't think you do. You don't use any grounding mats or anything like that, do you?

Gin Stephens: I do not. I just walk on the beach a lot.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Oh, yeah, I don't have that. That's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Walk outside barefoot whenever I can.

Melanie Avalon: The reason I was asking was R Blank, who I had on the show runs the company Shield Your Body and he makes EMF-blocking products, and he just created a product. A lot of people use grounding products and they actually feel it's making them worse. Grounding mats, and grounding canopies, and stuff like that. It's a few different things. He has a whole pamphlet about it. But it can actually be made worse based on how it's plugged in and what is actually feeding it. It can make things worse. He has made this thing that fixes all of that, so that you can use grounding products and not get the negative effects. I can put a link in the show notes to that. I think I have a coupon, too. So, I'll put a link in the show notes.

AvalonX supplements are free of all common allergens like wheat, gluten, eggs, soy, dairy, shellfish, nuts, even rice, which is very, very common in a lot of supplements. Check for that. They also come in glass bottles and are vegan. For my first supplement serrapeptase, we created a special process that requires small batches to make, that uses only a small amount of MCTs as the lubricant and filler. None of the other serrapeptases on the market are doing this. That was actually one of the biggest things to tackle, because most of the serrapeptase on the market has problematic fillers and suspicious enteric coatings, which likely contain plastics and other potentially toxic compounds you don't want in your body. We use a special delay release capsule that ensures the serrapeptase reaches your small intestine, so that it can be absorbed into your body. What is serrapeptase? It's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. When you take it in the fasted state, it actually breaks down problematic proteins in your body. So, it can really help anything, where your body is reacting to problematic proteins. That's why it can radically help with allergies, it clears my sinuses like none other. And it can clear brain fog, studies have shown it may help reduce inflammation, enhance wound healing, help with pain, even reduce cholesterol, and break down amyloid plaque.

Basically, it's the coolest supplement ever and it is an awesome way to really amplify your fast. I take it every single day. We also recently launched subscriptions, so that you can get a big discount on my supplements, as well as help, support, sustainability by reducing emissions from shipping. And my next supplement is coming soon. That is magnesium. Get excited. If you want to get the latest information, specials, news about new supplements, and stay up to date on everything, AvalonX. Definitely get on my email list. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. When you join that list, check for the welcome email to make sure it doesn't go to spam. And you can shop, of course, at avalonx.us. Again, that is avalonx.us. AVALONX dot US, avalonx.us. And I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: So, shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: To start things off, we have a question from Ditra and the subject is: "Weight Watchers?" And Ditra says, "Hello, my name is D." Oh, it's D. "My name is D, and I've read two of Gin's books, and I've been intermittent fasting for two months, and feel great. I'm not weighing myself or counting calories, just judging the progress on how much healthier I'm feeling. I know you state over and over not to calorie count, but a friend asked the other day if I could use Weight Watcher points with my food window to make sure I'm staying within a healthy range. And I tried to look it up, but I couldn't find a whole lot of info on how that would work to fuse them together or even if I should. So, that's my question. Are there people who do both to increase weight loss or is that something you would discourage, because it's tantamount to counting calories? Thanks so much for the podcast." Tantamount, I need to integrate that into my vocabulary. That is an excellent word.

Gin Stephens: It is a nice word. [laughs] Well, D, thank you so much for the question. I'm glad to hear that you're feeling great after two months of intermittent fasting. You asked, "Are there people who do both?" I'm certain there are, because there are people, who count calories with fasting, there are people, who count macros with fasting. Personally, I would encourage you not to just because whenever we have these external measures of how much we are "allowed to eat" that teaches us to disregard our body's hunger and satiety signals. Let me talk about how it causes you to disregard both of them. I've never actually done Weight Watchers. I've definitely done calorie counting. But Weight Watchers is similar. You've got points, and you have a point budget for the day, and you can have, like, I don't even know how many points it would be, but let's say the answer was 22. I don't know. 22 points. You're encouraged to eat no more than 22 points. For me, I'm going to relate it to when I was calorie counting.

Let's say I was trying to do a 1,200 calorie a day diet and I'm counting my calories or whatever. When I was counting calories, first of all, it led me to a lot of processed foods just because those were easier to count. I'm not sure if the same is for Weight Watchers as well, because I know certain things are zero points and those are things they want to encourage you to eat like fruits and vegetables. But I know that it steered me towards more processed foods than I would normally have eaten just because there's so much more easy to count. Also, I would eat something just because I had calories leftover. Even if I wasn't hungry, I'd be like, "Well, I've only had X number of calories today. I'm going to eat something else, because I can." That taught me to override any feeling of I've had enough just because I had calories leftover. With points, I know a lot of people are like, "Hey, I have points leftover. So, I'm going to eat something else." Again, the goal is really to reconnect with your body's hunger and satiety signals within your eating window. If you're still hungry, you're going to eat more. You're not going to say, "Well, I'm still hungry today, but I've already eaten all my points. I better not eat anything else." If you're still hungry, we want you to eat more, because our needs are not the same from day to day.

Somebody today in my community was talking about they had been on a 5K this morning. And they ran a 5K, and they were done with the 5K, and then they were really hungry. They decided to open their window earlier and have a longer eating window. That's what she's doing. She's listening to her body, she's hungrier, she's eating more. She's going to have a longer window. I would really encourage you to give up all those artificial ways of managing what you're eating and really listen to your body. Look back, I imagine you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat. If you've read two of my books, that's probably one of them. Going back to the chapter on calorie counting, and every time I use the word calorie, insert the words Weight Watchers points and really think about how you want to teach your body to let you know when you've had enough instead of relying on an external counting mechanism of any type. Because that's really the goal. Animals in the wild do not count calories and they know when they've had enough. So, what do you have to say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I think that is excellent. I'm glad you pointed that out that never occurred to me, the thing about how it would actually encourage you to eat more, because you can fill out your points.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that was me. If I had done Weight Watchers, I would have been the person eating all the zero-point stuff nonstop. I would just be eating zero-point stuff all the time and then, I would have 22 points of ice cream or something that would probably be the way I would try to game the system.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: If there's going to be a number limit, I'm going to game it.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting. I have not done Weight Watchers. It's so funny. I had a friend growing up in middle school and high school and she was always doing Weight Watchers. I remember, she would show us the food list. I wonder if this is still on there. It had things on the list that, I mean, this could be wrong. I feel it had stingray or something. It had all of these-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: That might be a really old list. My mother did it back in the day in the 70s, 80s, and she had this old Weight Watchers book, and it did have crazy stuff in there.

Melanie Avalon: I remember she would show us we were like, "What?"

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think they've modernized their lists and they have a million different plans, and lists, and programs. They keep reinventing it.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was actually just going to talk about, because I'm looking at their website right now and I'm wondering when they introduced this. I was trying to figure out when, but I couldn't quite figure out. Because they have introducing new zero-point foods. What's really interesting about zero-point foods, it says that it's personalized to you, so you'll get a different list. But the list, I find this so interesting. The list of zero-point foods includes something within these non-starchy veggies, potatoes and starchy veggies, fruits, low fat or fat free yogurt and cottage cheese, brown rice, and whole grains, avocados, fish and shellfish, oats and oatmeal, poultry, whole wheat pasta, noodles, tofu, tempeh, corn, popcorn, beans, peas, lentils, eggs.

Gin Stephens: Do you know how much food I would eat? I'd be like, "I had zero points today" and it would have been 5,000 calories or something. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I don't understand. It's funny, because it's basically all Whole Foods.

Gin Stephens: Well, whole foods are good. Whole Foods are really, really good.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder how this works. You get unlimited of that and then, you get also your points of other stuff. How does that work?

Gin Stephens: Say the zero, the zero points would be tripping me up. I'd be like, "Everything I ate was zero points." Like I said, I'm going to have 22 points of pizza. [laughs] I think I always knew I would do it wrong. That's why I didn't even try it.

Melanie Avalon: But what's really interesting though is, in theory, you could combine fasting with Weight Watchers, the zero points system only, and then, it basically would be fat. It would just be eating unlimited of Whole Foods, which is what fasting is.

Gin Stephens: Well, the goal is, we want you to eat foods that are delicious, nutritious, and satisfy you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, which is what this list is.

Gin Stephens: And stop when you've had enough. [laughs] Although, I wouldn't be having any fat free dairy. No.

Melanie Avalon: I do not mean to say fasting is eating nutritious Whole Foods. I meant an approach that would work for a lot of people with intermittent fasting is to eat "unlimited," because it's to satiety ideally and from my perspective from Whole Foods, which is what the zero-point list is. So, yes, I think we're team not combining.

Gin Stephens: You can't if you want to. I know people have. But I know there're people who count calories in their window, there're people who follow diets in their window. But the goal is to get away from that. The freedom of intermittent fasting is adjust your window until you find a window that gives you weight loss and you don't have to worry about what and how much you're eating. When you get your window dialed in, you're going to have something that really works for your body without having to do all that counting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I would actually also suggest, so, I don't really suggest calorie counting combining it with fasting in general. The exception might be, if you've been doing fasting for a while and you've plateaued, I think something that might could work for people is not calorie counting every meal, because then you're just basically doing calorie restriction. But instead of doing straight up ADF, I think something that could work would be every other day or a few days per week, calorie counting the meal rather than every single day. Because then you're sending your body that signal in general, the feasting signal, but then having being a little bit sneaky and having a few days in there, where it's lower calories, I think that might could work for some people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's the down day option of ADF, the 500-calorie down day.

Melanie Avalon: I guess, to clarify was saying like, you could do it and not necessarily make it 500 calories. You could make it thousand or maybe not go to the extreme of ADF of the down-day approach.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and if you do have a down day with 500 calories, the next day needs to be an up day. Remember that everybody. It needs to be at least two meals and it needs to be probably eight hours or more. I wouldn't try to restrict on a day after a down day.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Agreed.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have a question from Tyloria and the subject is: "Why do I get so cold during IF?" She says, "I've been doing IF since December and I've lost 14 pounds, three inches in my waist, two inches in my hips, and two inches in my bust. My endocrinologist recommended IF to me. When I saw her last week, I was shocked at how much weight I had lost. My A1c went from 7.3 to 6.7. My current weight is 203 and I'm looking forward to being under 200 pounds for the first time in 20 years. That being said, I have had a new experience. I get extremely cold, especially at night. I'm so cold that it's uncomfortable for me. I live in Mobile, Alabama, where the average temperature is 70 degrees plus and humidity averages 70% to 90%. But lately, in the evenings around bedtime, I'm so cold. I have to put on my heater and socks. I have a small heater under my desk at work that I keep running all day. I have read a few things online that talk about your body heat being diverted from your extremities during the digestive process. I have also read that this indicates fat burning or even ketosis. I have also read that it may be low iron or low blood pressure. When I started this, I listened to a few podcasts by Dr. Andrew Huberman. I think he mentioned your book Fast. Feast. Repeat."

Melanie Avalon: Okay, pause. Do we know if this is a true statement?

Gin Stephens: I don't know if that's true. But if it is that is.

Melanie Avalon: Can we find out?

Gin Stephens: I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: I read that and my jaw dropped.

Gin Stephens: Well, if it's true, I'm amazed. So, I hope it's true.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. For listeners, I'm sure there's people-- He has the number one health podcast normally. I'm such a fan of him. Listeners, if you listen to his show, I'm such a fan. I don't actually actively listen to his show. I'm more listen to him on other people's shows. Listeners, if you listen to his show and you've heard this episode, can you let us know?

Gin Stephens: That would be amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I would love to listen to that and hear what he says.

Gin Stephens: I bet he didn't. I bet he recommended something else. But it's good it's possible. Anyway, I love that the book was life changing.

Melanie Avalon: I am friends with his agent. I want to ask him. He's crazy. Okay. Well, if anybody knows, let us know.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that would be really mind blowing to me, so anyhow. I also love her endocrinologist recommended IF. That makes me so happy that doctors are recommending IF. Anyway, we go back to the question. She says, "When I read your book, it was life changing for me. That being said, I trust your opinion and your research. You covered every possible scenario, but I don't recall info on this topic." Actually, it's there in the Frequently Asked Questions section. But that's way in the back. I could see how somebody could miss it, but it is there. She says, "My brain is analytical. If I understand the science behind what's happening to my body, it makes sense to me. I would greatly appreciate any insight you could provide. I do subscribe to your podcast" and she also says, "Can you all let me know when this question will be answered? Thank you." I'll answer that. The answer's no. You just have to keep listening.

Melanie Avalon: We're answering it now.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, today.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Tyloria, so thank you for your question. Okay. I did a bit of research on this, which I'd actually talked about this. Now, I'm curious. I think I talked about this in What When Wine as well and I want to revisit what I say in there. I think in there, I talked about the blood flow aspect to the extremities, as well as the correlation to longevity of low body temperatures. That said, I did some more recent updated research and this was very interesting. I found two fun studies that I read through. One is called lower core body temperature and greater body fat are components of a human thrifty phenotype, and the other is core body temperature, energy expenditure, and epinephrine during fasting, eucaloric feeding and overfeeding in healthy adult men, evidence for a ceiling effect for human, thermogenic response to diet. Okay, let's go through this. So, question, Gin. What percent of our basal metabolic rate do you think contributes to maintaining our body temperature? I did not know this.

Gin Stephens: Huh. That's interesting. I don't know. I'm just going to guess 15%.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I would have guessed. It's 50.

Gin Stephens: Really? So, you would have said more 15 as well? That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: About half of our daily metabolism is just maintaining our body temperature. That's a really interesting concept to think about. The way it relates to all of this is, yes, people, while fasting often get colder and I think the primary reason for this isn't so much-- Well, it depends how you look at it. It's like a glass half empty, glass half full. Is it that you're getting colder or is it that eating makes you warmer? Because across the board, when people eat, there is something called diet-induced thermogenesis, which is basically heat production from the eating process. People's core body temperature consistently tends to elevate when we eat. If you are eating throughout the day, you are presumably going to have a higher resting body temperature than when you're in the fasted state. What's really interesting about one of these studies was talking about was and I'm going to preface it by saying other studies have not found this. There're conflicting findings. But one of these did find that, there're two phenotypes like the thrifty phenotype. That's like their body is less likely to lose weight, more likely to gain weight. It's trying to protect you from future starvation, and then they have the spendthrift phenotype, which is more laissez faire and more easily burns calories and loses weight. Between these two metabolic states, the thrifty phenotype people tend to get colder while fasting, and then, interestingly, when they eat, they don't get as warm. So, their bodies-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: You said that's the thrifty phenotype doesn't get as warm? Because I get so hot after eating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And do you get cold while fasting a lot?

Gin Stephens: Yes, but not crazy cold.

Melanie Avalon: But not crazy cold. The spendthrift phenotype, they're the ones that are more likely to not get overweight. They get hotter after eating. That all said, there's another little caveat to this and it's that, if you are the type that like your basal metabolic temperature is already at the ceiling, which is 37 degrees Celsius, what is that in Fahrenheit? If your normal basal body temperature is considered the ceiling of normal basal body temperature, which is 37 degrees Celsius or 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, then, you actually, probably won't get that much hotter from eating. Because they call it a ceiling effect. All of that is to say that it's nuanced and complicated, but if you are the type and it sounds like Tyloria might be this type, because she's struggled with being overweight. If you are the type of person that is their body more naturally gravitates towards becoming overweight, it's possible that you're in this thrifty phenotype. What's interesting is it means that you are probably going to get colder while fasting and then, when you eat you'll get hotter, because there's a higher potential for you to get hotter, because you're not hitting that ceiling. So, it even further exacerbates feeling colder. I don't know if I'm explaining that correctly. Because if you're constantly just running at a higher body temperature, you're not going to experience that big difference between fasting and eating, like, you would if you're this other phenotype.

As far as the reasoning for it, like, why is that happening, the study I was looking at was saying it could be due to a lot of things. It could be genetics. It could be sympathetic nervous system response. I was looking at another study and for example, epinephrine is a hormone that is often released in fasting. It's one of our stress hormones, but it has a lot of benefits like keeping us alert and releasing fat stores. So, people who naturally have higher epinephrine levels tend to run at a higher body temperature. So, that could be a factor. Prior weight loss attempts, so, your history could actually affect how your body responds with its body temperature. I didn't read the link studies for that, but I'm going to assume. Don't quote me on this, but I'm going to assume that you've dieted in the past that your body might become more "thrifty." Differing levels of physical fitness or individual hormonal responses, also, something like brown adipose tissue could be a factor. People, who have higher amounts of brown adipose fat, they'll actually be warmer when fasting or when cold, because one of the purposes of that fat is actually to generate heat.

All of that to say is that, yes, it is completely normal to have a lower body temperature while fasting. It's very different between individuals and it's possible that as you evolve in your body weight and are making beneficial changes, it's possible that it could change, because especially, with something like brown adipose tissue, for example, that's something that we know we can actually increase with cold exposure. It's one of the reasons I do cryotherapy every single day. If you were to build that up, that would help your response. So, that was all over the place. Oh, and lastly, I think some people if they are doing fasting and it's too restrictive for their body, I can see how it might negatively affect their thyroid and they might feel colder from that. That's something definitely to keep in mind. You might want to monitor your thyroid levels. But all of that to say and I said this at the very beginning, but a lower body temperature actually is correlated to longevity. So, maybe, you can reframe it as having some longevity spiking potential.

Gin Stephens: Yep, that's very true. We talked so much about not wanting to slower metabolisms, but actually a slower metabolism is linked to longevity. [laughs] Basically, once you get to your happy weight and you right now, I don't care what my metabolism is, because I'm eating in a point that allows me to maintain.

Melanie Avalon: What was in your book about it?

Gin Stephens: Well, I kept it simple. It was in the Frequently Asked Questions section and it's one paragraph. On page 307, I talked about the two just big generalities. First of all, digesting food creates a lot of heat, which keeps us warm and toasty. And also, when we're fasting, just like Tyloria said that when we're fasting, our bodies direct blood flow to our fat stores and away from our extremities to mobilize fat for fuel. So, having less blood flow to the extremities can make us feel cold.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, now, I'm just looking at what I said in my book as well and it also was very short. I said, "You shouldn't feel uncomfortably cold while fasting though, I've personally become a colder person in body not spirit." Since losing body fat from IF, I said, "If IF makes you a little chilly, make sure you're eating enough in your fasting window as unintentional undereating may or may not cause issues."

Gin Stephens: You didn't say fasting window there, did you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, sorry.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I was like, "Oh, did we just find a typo in your book?" Did you say fasting window?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I did.

Gin Stephens: Uh-oh. Typos are everywhere.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: Ain't that funny? You never noticed it, never would have. Yeah. Do not eat more in your fasting window everybody. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Well, so, if you read that, that's not what that supposed to say. I said to combat cold consider eating more, fasting less, or eating thermogenic foods such as coconut oil. Oh, no, I said, if you can't seem to fix your inner thermostat, consider getting your thyroid checked. I will say what I eat C8 MCT and add that to my food, I get so hot and it lasts throughout the next day. That might be something to consider trying. When I listened to your audiobook, Gin, I only heard one thing. Do you know what it was? I guess, you would want to know, because you would--

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: The MTHFR.

Gin Stephens: Oh, did I say it wrong?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it was the wrong order of the letters.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's so funny. That was just a tongue twisted. I'm sure just my mouth saying it wrong.

Melanie Avalon: What's funny about it is, because I was thinking about it and I was thinking like, do you talk about MTHFR much?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I was thinking. I was like, "So, people who don't have MTHFR or have never looked into it, they wouldn't think about the order of the letters."

Gin Stephens: It's funny that the director didn't notice that I said it wrong. I'm sure I didn't have it wrong in the book.

Melanie Avalon: I doubt you did.

Gin Stephens: I just said it wrong. Yeah, it is. So, you know. You've read audiobooks before. It is so hard to read audiobook.

Melanie Avalon: The reason I was thinking about it was, I was like, the only people who are going to notice it are people who have MTHFR. Because we say MTHFR is like a--

Gin Stephens: Was that in Clean(ish) or Fast. Feast, Repeat.?

Melanie Avalon: Clean(ish)

Gin Stephens: I was like, I don't think I mentioned it in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I didn't hear anything in Fast. Feast, Repeat. Oh, it's so--

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Well, I can't even find it. I don't even know where I was looking in the index here of Clean(ish). I don't even know where it is. [laughs] But yeah, I know I have it in there. I do know what it is, but who knows. I was also sick while I was recording that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. I can't believe you did that.

Gin Stephens: It's amazing that any of it is coherent to tell you the truth. I had a fever.

Melanie Avalon: It's a lot. I can't believe you recorded the entire audiobook for both. That's a lot.

Gin Stephens: For both of them, oh, I know, I know. I feel I had to, because everybody knows my voice or well, okay, not everybody, but a lot of people who know my voice would be listening, give their podcast listeners, they are more likely to want the audiobook. So, I had to do it, but I was happy to do it. I was mainly happy when I was finished it. I'm so glad I did it. I am not complaining.

Melanie Avalon: I've shared the story before, but my publisher made me audition and then they wouldn't even let me do the whole thing, which looking back is just so surreal to me, because I feel I should have narrated it.

Gin Stephens: You totally should have.

Melanie Avalon: It doesn't make much sense.

Gin Stephens: I made him put it in my contract, because I remembered that from you.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, really? Nice, nice. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Because I was like, "[unintelligible [00:45:14] going in the contract."

Melanie Avalon: I know it's a thing, though, because I just interviewed Bill Schindler recently and he said, they made him audition for him as well.

Gin Stephens: Really?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my gosh. I guess, it might also just depend on the publisher and who the team is. But it never even was a question, because I think like I said, they know that I have such a big podcast audience with this one and the other one that people would expect to hear me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Who was your audiobook publisher? Was it also--?

Gin Stephens: Macmillan.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: Macmillan Audio. They are amazing. Such a good team. So, fabulous to work with.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if, because my audiobook publisher, it was not my publisher publisher. It was Tantor Audio.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Which is a really big audio publisher. I think maybe if my audiobook publisher had been my publisher, I feel it would have gone differently. But it's like they were not outsourcing it, but they handed it off to this really big publisher. So, then, they were just looking at me objectively and we're like, "You got to audition."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, because your main publishing house was not one of the big giant ones, is it?

Melanie Avalon: It was an imprint at one of the big ones, but it wasn't. But they didn't have like a--

Gin Stephens: They don't do it there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Okay, okay. Yeah, I guess, I'm just lucky that they have Macmillan Audio right in there.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

Gin Stephens: It's quite a process. The amount of time that it takes to record an audiobook is crazy. But I am surprised nobody noticed. I said it wrong. Because the team that was with me recording Clean(ish) was amazing. They'd be like, "You said that a little weird. Would you read that, again?"

Melanie Avalon: I'm guessing none of them have MTHFR issues.

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Like I said, that's all I was thinking you're only going to notice it if you're a person that has gone down the MTHFR rabbit hole, because you use the word colloquially as like a phrase compared to just looking at letters, but fun times.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Sherry. The subject is: "Fasting link.' Sherry says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie, I'm a faithful listener to this podcast and the ones you each do separately. You guys are so knowledgeable and helpful. I have been intermittent fasting for over a year with a four-hour eating window. I am experiencing so many benefits that this is definitely my life. I know everyone must find their own path, but I was wondering about information on how long someone should fast for to reduce arthritis, pain, skin health, and dental health. Gin, on your podcast, Intermittent Fasting Stories, your guest said, she had to fast for so many hours to not have pain. I was wondering if you guys were familiar with this, I adore you guys and you have both found your calling. Thanks in advance. Intermittent faster for life."

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you, Sherry. I think Melanie and I would agree that we do believe we found our calling and we love it. We love the work that we're doing. I know we both do. I'm speaking for you, Melanie, but I knew that was the answer.

Melanie Avalon: That is correct.

Gin Stephens: Here's the thing about that question, Sherry. I have heard from so many people that they have had reduced arthritis pain, or their skin has gotten better, or their dental health has improved. But intermittent fasting doesn't always "fix" those things for everybody. It really just depends on why you have the pain, or what what's happening with your skin, or what's going on with your dental health. Intermittent fasting addresses inflammation, for example. Anything that's related to increased inflammation, if you do intermittent fasting, you can expect you'll likely see benefits there. But from what I understand not all arthritis is strictly just because of inflammation. I think there's other things like your joints can be damaged. It might not make any difference at all depending on the root cause of why you're having that pain. The same thing with skin. Someone in our community yesterday was talking about she's like, "I've been doing intermittent fasting and my acne is terrible. It's just not getting any better." I asked her, I said, "Did your acne get worse after fasting or has this always been a problem?" She said, "No, it's always been a problem." I said, "Well, then, unfortunately, it just seems like whatever is the cause of your acne is not something that intermittent fasting is correcting." So, that doesn't mean that someone else won't have an improvement with acne, thanks to intermittent fasting. It's really just a matter of what your root cause might be.

Perhaps, you're having arthritis pain or issues with your skin due to something you're eating, that's not working well for your body. Intermittent fasting isn't going to correct that to the fullest. If you're eating something that doesn't agree with your body, the best thing to do would be to take that out. You'd have to do an elimination approach to try to figure out what that might be. Dental health, again, that's also really, really complex. I've definitely heard from people on the podcast, who have an improved dental checkup after doing fasting, because you're not eating all hours of the day anymore. But I still had to have crowns and dental work done. It's like when you're doing intermittent fasting, you know it's doing great things in your body, but it isn't going to necessarily correct every issue that you have had, unfortunately. So, we can't say here's how many hours to fast not have pain, because fasting might not have anything to do with your pain as far as the underlying cause it might not correct that underlying cause.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was a great answer. It's so, so individual. I will say, I'll just speak briefly to each of them. The skin health and Gin just touched on this. My experience with fasting is that, it really, really helps my skin. I will say though, if you are having skin issues, I would really, really look at what you're eating, because I think that often really can affect our skin. I know for me, historically, even, I went through a period where I was really struggling with psoriasis, and I just could not figure it out, and I ended up figuring it out, and it was something I was eating. It was lettuce.

Gin Stephens: What? This is while you're doing fasting?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Lettuce?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The reason I figured it out was it was happening on my fingers, mostly. But it was also happening on my face. But I put [unintelligible [00:54:41] together that I was chopping lettuce every night, so it's where I was touching it, and then it was also manifesting my face. When I cut out lettuce, it all went away.

Gin Stephens: I wonder if it's something that they had sprayed on it?

Melanie Avalon: I've been wondering about that and I'm trying to remember, because this was a while ago and I'm trying to remember if I was just eating organic or if I was eating conventional as well. But I really feel for people, who struggle with psoriasis and conditions like that, well, also acne because I had acne growing up as well. I identify with you if you have skin issues, because you can feel just so helpless, because you just don't know how to make it go away. I remember when I had the psoriasis on my fingers, I was like, because this is when I was doing a lot of acting. I was always looking at casting calls and I would see casting calls [unintelligible [00:55:31] models, and I was like, "I can never apply for that, because I have psoriasis on my hands." I will say, looking at what you're eating can be huge. Especially, things like acne, I do wonder, if I could go back to growing up when I had really bad acne, because I ended up doing Accutane, which did fix my acne problem, but I do wonder going back if I had just done dietary changes that would have actually resolved the acne.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, I refused my boys wanted to take Accutane, because they had friends doing it. I'm like, "Nope, we're not doing that."

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. And boys, it's even worse, the side effects.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we didn't do it, but it all resolved. But I had zits here and there. What bad didn't have what you would consider acne, it wasn't-- Both my boys did. It comes from Chad's side of the family and it was hard for them. It's definitely a struggle.

Melanie Avalon: My experience, too. Have I shared this on the story before like they put me on birth control first?

Gin Stephens: I think you might have.

Melanie Avalon: I had to be on birth control in order to get on the Accutane, because it's part of the Accut--. I don't know if it goes this way now. I don't know if it's changed.

Gin Stephens: It leads to birth defects. Big time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. At the time, I'm really curious if they still do this. You have to do this whole thing. Accutane as the company has this whole-- You have to get a workbook. You have to take online quizzes, you had to be on birth control, you had to do all of this stuff. Yeah, I think I've shared this before, but basically, I had to go on birth control for certain amount of time, a long time, like a month or something. We went in to actually get Accutane, because I qualify now, because I've been on birth control for so long. The dermatologist was like, "Oh, well, I think the birth control is making enough of a difference. So, I'm not going to prescribe it." I just started bawling in the room and it's really frustrating to look back, because I shouldn't have been on birth control when I was 16. I don't know. All of that to say, oh, that's also when I realized when I went on birth control, I didn't change anything that I can see in my diet. But if you look at my pictures in high school, I probably gained-- Again, I was never overweight, but I definitely gained probably, a substantial amount in a very short amount of time and I really think that that was the birth control.

Gin Stephens: But I also wondered since you did it for a month and then you started the Accutane, I wonder if the Accutane affected your gut somehow.

Melanie Avalon: Mm, yeah, that's a good question. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Because you didn't do the birth control by itself very long.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, did I stay on it?

Gin Stephens: On the birth control or the Accutane? I feel they would make you take them both at the same time.

Melanie Avalon: Well, what ended up happening was, we gone to that one dermatologist and when she said, no, and I was crying, and we went home, we knew another dermatologist that was out of our network. The reason we gone to her was she was in network. We knew our friend's dermatologist would prescribe it without birth control. So, we went to her. She just trusted that you were not sexually active--

Gin Stephens: On our system.

Melanie Avalon: All of that to say, what I have learned from my journey and my experience is that, the food that you're eating has a major effect on your skin health. Also, if you want to support skin health in general, red-light therapy can be super amazing. Oh, we should have talked about this earlier because I think Joovv is actually sponsoring today's episode.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's funny.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I did not even realize that. So, listen to the spot for Joovv, because their red-light therapy devices are amazing. I think our link is joovv.com/ifpodcast and I think IF PODCAST gets you a code. That's something I would use daily for skin health. I do personally. And then, I just want to talk really briefly to the other things, which was the arthritis. Yes, I'm glad Gin talked about that, that there can be a lot of causes for that. I will do a plug for my serrapeptase, because there actually is clinical studies on it reducing arthritis pain. So, that might be something that you could use to amplify your fast and maybe help with that. And then, dental health, I'm so excited about this. I connected with a company called Bristle, recently. I will find out if I can-- I think I'm going to have a code for them, but they actually do an oral microbiome test which is so exciting. Have you done one of those, Gin or have you--?

Gin Stephens: I have not done an oral microbiome test. I actually have an oral hygiene company that sponsors Intermittent Fasting Stories and they are big in the oral microbiome as far as like, "You don't want to kill your oral microbiome." I was like, "I had no idea." "All the mouthwashes that you use and swish around, you're killing the good guys, too." I was like, "Mind blown, I never thought of that." [laughs] So, I switched to my toothpaste. Lumineux is the brand name.

Melanie Avalon: I've been thinking about that for a really, really long time and it's really interesting, because it's how the gut microbiome was a new frontier, and it's only relatively pretty recent that exploration of the gut microbiome has become so exploded.

Gin Stephens: Once they could sequence what was in there and figure it out, they used to didn't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But I think the next wave will be the oral microbiome. There're actually new theories that a lot of gut issues and such might actually, the root cause might not always be completely in the gut. It could be your oral microbiome.

Gin Stephens: Well, the whole thing is really from mouth to hiney, [laughs] is just a tube that just goes through straight through you. So, and everything along the way from mouth to backside.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually just got an email today saying that my results were received. It was super easy to do. You just spit saliva into this little tube thing and send it back.

Gin Stephens: That does sound interesting.

Melanie Avalon: If you want to try it, I can connect you with them. I'm sure they would send you one.

Gin Stephens: I actually heard someone talk about your digestive system is actually being on the outside of your body. Have you heard that?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You're like, "Wait a minute." [laughs] Because you're putting stuff. It's all and obviously, stuff goes in and out through, but stuff goes in and out through your skin as well. Just the same way.

Melanie Avalon: If you think about it--

Gin Stephens: You're like a hose pipe, a tube.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like, if you have a box and then you put a tube from one side of the box to the other side of the box, into the box, a hollow tube.

Gin Stephens: The interior of it is not in the box. It goes through the box.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Our digestive system goes through us and stuff goes in and out of it into our bodies. Just like I said, stuff goes in and out of our skin. I know that was mind blowing. I'm like, "What?"

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've been pondering that concept. I have not received my discount code from them yet, but I'll put it in the show notes, and I will try to make it MELANIEAVALON. If you go to bristlehealth.com, so, that's B-R-I-S-T-L-E-H-E-A-L-T-H dotcom, that's where you can get that system. Again, I don't have the code yet, but I'm going to email them right after this and I will try to make the code MELANIEAVALON. But you can check the show notes to confirm that and the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode261. Okay, so, that was wonderful. A few other things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and yes, you can get all these stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike.

Gin Stephens: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Gin before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: Okey-dokey. Well, this was wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

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