The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

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Mar 07

Episode 255: Melanie’s Sexual Assault Experience, Increasing The Rate Of Weight Loss, Losing Your Period, Disturbed Sleep, Circadian Rhythm, Extended Fasting, Medication & Autophagy, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #135 - Cynthia Thurlow

Welcome to Episode 255 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

melanie's sexual assault experience

Listener Q&A: The tazmanian devil - ADF and weight loss

GREEN CHEF: Go To Greenchef.Com/Ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Nancy - Why Follow The Circadian Rhythm?

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

LEVELS: Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At Levels.Link/Ifpodcast!

Listener Q&A: Steven - Medications

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 255 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. Low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more.

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I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. When you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 255 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Doing great, feeling good. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I was wondering if I could share something, a story?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I will start by saying just brief disclaimer for people listening. If you have young children listening, maybe skip ahead, look at the show notes and skip ahead just a little bit, because I'm going to share something of a slightly sensitive nature. But it's very important to me. So, yes, that is a disclaimer. On Valentine's Day, which was pretty recently, I got a massage and I actually experienced sexual battery from the massage therapist. The situation was really, really scary and I felt very helpless. Right afterwards, I was just crying, and I was talking to my friends, and they were encouraging me to go to the police, and I was really scared about going to the police, because you don't know if you're overthinking it or if they're going to believe you. It's just a scary thing. But I did. The reason I'm sharing this is because I am so, so happy that I went. I immediately felt very safe. I'm very grateful for that whole situation. Actually, they were able to arrest him that night, which was very wonderful to hear. So, I will have a court date for that.

I just shared that, because since then I've done a lot of research on the whole issue of sexual assault. The stats are just really, really shocking. I think it's something that people just don't really talk about. First of all, I was thinking about it, like, it's one of the only major crimes, where there's often no evidence. If somebody steals something, then something's stolen. So, you know something happened. If somebody kills somebody, which is awful, but you know somebody's dead. So, you know something happened. With this often, there's not any evidence that you can see on the outside. Interestingly, that night, I was actually meeting with the investigator in the investigation room, like you see on TV. He told me in the room, he said, "Just so you know I'm going to go talk to this guy, but it's really, really hard to make arrests in the situation, because normally they'll just say that they didn't mean to or that they don't know what you're talking about. It's really hard to arrest them, because it's just two people's words against each other."

Gin Stephens: That is true. It makes sense that it would be hard to-- Then, I guess, people go through it and they're like, "Well, I probably shouldn't say anything, because we can't prove it." So, people keep it to themselves and really that doesn't help the situation for anybody. But I understand why.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. It's like--

Gin Stephens: Embarrassing. It feels embarrassing to talk about.

Melanie Avalon: It's a crime that feels shameful in a way, even though you didn't do anything. I just think it's a really big issue. Interestingly, he was able to arrest the man, because he asked him what had happened and he didn't say that he didn't do it, and he didn't say that he didn't know what he was talking about. He just asked for an attorney. He wouldn't say what happened. The detective was able to arrest him. because then he was only going off of my testimony. Again, very grateful for that situation. Yeah, so, I just think people aren't talking about this and I think it's so, so common. I was looking at some statistics and these are from RAINN, R-A-I-N-N, which stands for Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network.

It's most likely that sexual assaults are actually the most prevalent crime in the US, but they're also the most underreported. Every 60 seconds, an American is sexually assaulted, every nine minutes that victim is a child. Meanwhile, only 25 out of every one thousand perpetrators will end up in prison, only 5% of sexual assault reports filed have been proven false, 82% of all juvenile sexual assault victims are female, 90% of adult rape victims are female. In 2019, over 652,676 women were raped and nearly 1 million women were victims of sexual assault. So, I'm very grateful.

First of all, the support from in the Facebook groups, and Instagram, and everything was overwhelming. So, thank you so much, everybody. It was so wonderful. Oh, and so many guests that I've had on my show reached out and sent me messages and emails, and I was honestly overwhelmed with everybody's support. It was a really beautiful thing. So many people said that similar things that happened to them too, but they never said anything.

Gin Stephens: I think that's very, very common. I really do think it is important to speak up. Like we said, even though it's hard and even if it feels shameful, something like that believe it or not happened, where the salon that I used to go to. The guy, it was a male massage therapist. He'd been there for years. Someone reported some inappropriate touching and he was fired. I think it's important that the massage board or I don't know, who does the licensing, what it's actually called. They need to hear all these reports. Even if you can't get the perpetrator arrested, it's important to file it, because I think that once you start having it, if it continues to happen, that person should not be able to be licensed.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, if it happens once.

Gin Stephens: Again, it is he said, she said kind of a situation. But if it happens, if there's a pattern, I don't really know what the massage board would require as far as proof, as far as when they would take someone's license. Because there could be somebody who-- This may sound awful, no one plays things like this. There could be someone who makes a false report. I'm not saying that people are likely to make a false report, but it is a possibility. But if there're two reports, it's very unlikely that either of them is false. Does that make sense? So, I would never say someone is making a false report, but there is a possibility someone could and so, one report is really too many. But if you investigate it, they should all be investigated.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good point. Yeah, so even if you could file a report, even if there's not an arrest or a trial or prosecution, if we're all filing when these are happening, those reports will add up. If every time we file, because these people-- It's not just massage, it's all different things.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Any place that you could be alone with someone or it could happen anytime, but you need to file, definitely file a report, because I really think that there's strength in numbers. I guess, that's all I'm trying to say, strength in numbers.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly.

Gin Stephens: I hesitated to even say that someone could file a false report, because I know that sounds very much like not believing the person.

Melanie Avalon: People do. I'm sure. Like that stat 5%. I don't know how accurate that stat is, but I would guess maybe that sounds reasonable to me. I don't know. But I just think because of the sensitive nature of it, people are just so unlikely to and like I said, I was really scared, too. What happened to me was very, very most definitely qualified. So, it was-- [crosstalk]

Gin Stephens: No question that that was not something that he should have been doing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But even then I was really scared. Then I was scared talking to the investigator because he said, "If we are able to arrest him, then you have to make the decision. Do you want to prosecute, which means do you want to go to trial?" I said, "Yes." So, that's upcoming. Oh, somebody did say a really good comment on one of my posts. They said, if you're questioning, if something happened to you that was inappropriate, it probably was because people don't question things that are normal and appropriate.

Gin Stephens: Even if you can't-- I'm going back to, of course, to the spa situation just because that's where you were and it happened at a spa that I went to as well. You need to absolutely report it to the owner of the spa, also the authorities, the police, the massage board, all of those places just because you don't want that person to be licensed, you don't want the person to be rehired somewhere else, but you definitely want to get them out of where they are working now.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Something else, I think the thing that convinced me to actually go to the police and the thing that convinced me to say yes about did I want to prosecute was thinking, it's not even about me. It's about stopping this person from doing this to somebody else.

Gin Stephens: Right. 100% That's what I think if any of us have this situation and we feel embarrassed or we're not brave enough to say something, we need to be brave enough, so that we can stop it from happening to somebody else and our voices can be heard together. Because again, he probably has not only done that to you, he's done that to other people. The other people may just be traumatized and never going to get a massage again or never going to have a male massage therapist again versus if they had spoken up, it might have prevented it from happening to you.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: Even if you think they might not believe you, speak up. Because the more people speak up, the less that the person will be able to say, "Oh, nothing really happened." Because if a lot of people are saying, "where there's smoke, there's fire." There's the saying for a reason. If a lot of people have a similar story, then that person can't keep making excuses.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I actually heard what you said. I actually heard that from some other comments people were saying that they didn't say anything, but then later the person was fired or something. I'm on a mission. I actually recorded a PSA for my other show and I'm going to run it on every single episode, because I just want everybody to hear this. It all manifested fine. I went to the police, I feel very good about the situation, but if somebody had told me before all of this, I think I would have felt different during the experience.

Gin Stephens: You might have been empowered at the time. Yeah. I get it, because you're probably thinking, "Is this really happening?"

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: "Is this, okay?"

Melanie Avalon: Also, comparing it to the other crimes. The other crimes is just so obvious that something was wrong. But with this--

Gin Stephens: It's subtle, but against the law.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. It's almost worse because compared to theft, because it's a violation of your body in a space where--

Gin Stephens: You should be safe. We feel like if you're at a doctor's office, or in a place where you're getting massage therapy, or in a dentist's chair.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes, exactly.

Gin Stephens: Again, if something feels off, it is off. Really trust your instincts with that. Again, I just want to reiterate when I made the comment that someone could make a false claim.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, but they do, they do.

Gin Stephens: I feel almost like I shouldn't have even said that. But I think that it's important. It's hard to know what the law should be. One claim, you're out, I don't know. I guess, it's the mother of sons. Maybe that's why I'm sensitive to. [giggles] I don't know. I'd have told my children never do anything that we've had this conversation.

Melanie Avalon: I think all claims should be taken seriously. So, I think there should be a trial.

Gin Stephens: And investigation, a thorough investigation. I also feel if you just had other people talk to other people, they're probably-- I get this place where I was and the guy was fired. They started talking to other people and sure enough, it wasn't just one person. There was plenty. It wasn't just one. There were lots, but no one had spoken up. So, one person did, one person spoke up, and then the owner started asking around, and then that wasn't-- There was plenty of like, "Okay, corroborating evidence."

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was actually a pretty good candidate for having a stronger testimony, because the investigator in the room, he was asking me a lot of intense questions, which he said he was doing, because he had asked but also because he was like, "If this goes to court, this is the way they're going to ask you questions there." The good thing about my experience is, you guys know, I get a lot of massages. This is something I've been doing for a long time. It's not like this was my first massage. I've been going to that location for years. It's not I was just like, "This was my first massage and I was reporting it."

Gin Stephens: Wow. So, will you go back to that location?

Melanie Avalon: No, which makes me sad, because it's the only location by me where they actually have chair massages, which is why I like to go-- This was not a chair massage. That's why I'd always go in there.

Gin Stephens: You could get just a really quick chair massage.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, really quick. Yeah. Actually, the reason I went with this guy because I actually, normally as a rule always go with women when I do a full body, but I had gone in the week prior and he was new, and he gave me a chair massage, and it was just so fabulous, and I was like, "Okay." I was like, "I'm going to book--." He was like, "You should come do a full body massage." I was like, "Okay, I'll do that for Valentine's, that'll be fun."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, well, I'm glad that you got him out of there. I assume you talk to the people that run the place.

Melanie Avalon: I actually haven't.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I would do that right away or did the investigator tell you not to?

Melanie Avalon: I left right away. I just wanted to get out of there, because I anticipate they're probably going to ask me, why did I not talk to him then or talk to the owners then. Gin, I was so scared and so confused. I just wanted to leave and I didn't want him to think that I was on to him. I just wanted to leave and then deal [laughs] it’s like the freeze response.

Gin Stephens: Maybe check with the police and see if they're going to report it to the owner, because I think the owner needs to know.

Melanie Avalon: That night they had police squad over there.

Gin Stephens: Okay, so, they know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. That's what I was trying to get to. Does the police know? It doesn't have to be you, somebody has to let the place know. I want to make sure, because I know the guy knows, then you know, and the police know, but did the place know?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Where they talked to him was at the place.

Gin Stephens: Oh, good. Well, that makes me feel better. I also think that one report and you are not touching anybody else till there isn’t a full investigation.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I agree. I think the fact that he wouldn't say what happened and immediately asked for an attorney is pretty telling. Yeah, they immediately sent police over there and actually, then I went home, and then they call, and it was like 10 o'clock by that time. They like, "Can you come back? The detective's actually still here." Then I came back, and then I did that, and then he went over. So, it all it was all taken care of that night.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm sorry that it happened, but thank you for speaking up, and you're going to give someone that's listening is going to have the courage to tell what happened in the future, so that just from hearing the story. So, thank you for doing that.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you and I know we're going long, but the last thing is I also really encourage parents, I know it's a really sensitive topic, but I really encourage parents too, in their own time and when they think it's appropriate have these conversations with their children.

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%. And also, like I just said, as the mother of boys, have conversations with your boys about what is appropriate or not appropriate for them to be doing. Obviously, they can also be victims of abuse, but you also need to make sure they are careful not to be perceived as abusers or that they know what that means, so that they're not making-- I know, there was a thing I went to when the boys were, I guess, middle school age, it was called "Teen Years 101." It was put out by a judge here in town. He had a night for the parents and a night for the kids to go to, and he told us all the ways that your children could get in really bad trouble. You leave and you're panicked like, "Oh, my gosh. Yes. All the things your kids can do wrong, and then they're ruined forever." [laughs]

With Will, he's 22, I'm like, "Never date a girl who's under 18. Never, never, never." Stuff like that just because you got to protect your boys from making mistakes that they don't know are mistakes.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I can see how that would happen for sure.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, if they're not 18, do not even go on a date with them [laughs]. Yeah, make her show you her license. I mean, seriously. [laughs] Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: It's all funny, but it is funny.

Gin Stephens: I know. Well, as the mom, we want our kids to be safe and protected, but we also want them to make smart choices and not get in trouble for things that they maybe didn't even know were wrong things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's such a delicate, complicated topic.

Gin Stephens: If drinking is going on, you need to let them know what is consent. If everyone is drinking, they need to understand those things.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. I think we should just approach everything. I don't know with all events. I don't want to say automatically believe. I think there should be a thorough investigation into everything is my point.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I agree with that. Any report should be thoroughly investigated as true.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I agree.

Gin Stephens: But you do have to investigate. You don't just like, "All right, someone said it. So, you're out."

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. I want to reach out to that RAINN organization and see if I can get their president or something on my show. I want to do a show about it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I think that would be great for awareness. 100%.

Melanie Avalon: All right.

Gin Stephens: Well, that was heavy, but thank you for sharing it again, and I hope that everything I was saying comes across with the right intent and spirit.

Melanie Avalon: It 100% did.

Gin Stephens: Because I could see somebody being like, "Well, that was terrible. Why you didn't say that?"

Melanie Avalon: I got your message. So, and I agree with the messaging.

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Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we jump into lighter topics?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a question from the Tasmanian Devil is what she want?

Gin Stephens: I love it. Tasmanian Devil, that was one of my favorite cartoon characters.

Melanie Avalon: What is he?

Gin Stephens: He's a Tasmanian Devil.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's an animal?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: What do they look like in real life?

Gin Stephens: Not at all like the cartoon character. I think they're cute. I don't know. Maybe they're not cute. I can't remember. I know I've seen it before.

Melanie Avalon: Do they have little tornadoes around them?

Gin Stephens: No, that part is made up. Also, if you drop an anvil on a roadrunner, he's going to die. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wait, if you google Tasmanian Devil, they look really scary.

Gin Stephens: Do they? Okay. I can't remember.

Melanie Avalon: The first three pictures are terrifying.

Gin Stephens: Do you want to know something that's funny. What animal is super scary and you might not even realize it?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, I think I know the answer. There's a few. Oh, can we play this game? Okay.

Gin Stephens: Well, we could. He only looks scared because his teeth are out. He does look scary. Oh, yeah. Okay. When his teeth are out-- The Tasmanian Devil, he looks cute in this picture.

Melanie Avalon: His teeth are often out is the thing.

Gin Stephens: He looks super He does look cranky. This one, his teeth are not out, but he looks cranky. He does look pretty cranky.

Melanie Avalon: He walks around. I get the impression that like you walk up to him and he just like, [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Okay, all right. I'll say why, they're from Tasmania, and they're in New South Wales in Australia. All right, anyway. I saw an animal that usually we think of as super cute, and it was a little bit horrifying, and I was at an aquarium. So, that might help.

Melanie Avalon: In general, or just the one you saw?

Gin Stephens: Just this one. There's one that I saw at an aquarium last week that I would have thought of was--

Melanie Avalon: An otter.

Gin Stephens: No, otters are so cute.

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's why it's going to be mind blown, a dolphin.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, dolphins are so cute. They have smiles, they're so cute.

Melanie Avalon: Dolphins are so great.

Gin Stephens: They are. They're the kindest animals. Yeah, definitely wasn't a dolphin.

Melanie Avalon: You saw this animal and what happened?

Gin Stephens: It was just so creepy, but I've always thought of them as cute. It is not cute.

Melanie Avalon: Can I have hint? Was it a mammal?

Gin Stephens: No, it is not a mammal.

Melanie Avalon: Was it a fish?

Gin Stephens: No, it wasn't a fish, because fish are vertebrates. It's an invertebrate. Let me put it that way. It's invertebrate.

Melanie Avalon: Was it a reptile?

Gin Stephens: No. Invertebrate. Reptiles are vertebrates. This is my elementary teacher coming back to.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, snakes. Snakes?

Gin Stephens: Snakes are vertebrates. They have vertebrae, I promise. [laughs] They are vertebrate. They have backbones.

Melanie Avalon: I have to google this.

Gin Stephens: Well, you can Google it if you want to. Someone taught elementary science for as many years as I did. I know my vertebrate animals. [laughs] Are you surprised?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm just surprised that there's not one reptile that's an invertebrate.

Gin Stephens: Reptiles, they would not be a reptile. The reptiles are by definition vertebrates.

Melanie Avalon: You just don't think of a snake as having--

Gin Stephens: I know, you don't. In fact, I remember I was teaching third grade and one of my students said, "Our second-grade teacher told us snakes didn't have bones." I said, "Well, that's really sad in my head" [laughs] and then I said, "Well, that's not true. Let's look it up" and sure enough. But the all the other kids were like, "Yeah, that's what our teacher said." I'm like, "Well, okay."

Melanie Avalon: Was it an octopus?

Gin Stephens: Yes. Have you ever seen an octopus in person?

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so.

Gin Stephens: It was a-freaky.

Melanie Avalon: I've seen a baby octopus.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God. It was not cute at all. It was giant and instead of his cute little legs swinging around all cute, no, he was all balled up and his little tentacles were all over him. But they were all curled up and he kept rubbing with his tenta-- Oh my gosh, I was like, "I'm not an octopus fan."

Melanie Avalon: I would be so scared. I know, you should never have a pet octopus. But if I did, I would be convinced that I would wake up and it would be on me. Those things are smart. They get out of their cages.

Gin Stephens: Well, it wasn't cute. The seahorses are just adorable. Even the shark, it was like a tunnel you go under and the shark is over you, I didn't care. But the octopus gave me the heebie-jeebies, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Have you seen some of the videos of them getting out of their enclosures?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: It's terrifying. They get out.

Gin Stephens: Octopuses?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they're brilliant. Brilliant. There're some videos. Did you see the Finding Dory.

Gin Stephens: I didn't. I need to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. There's an octopus character in that one and he just gets out of everything. In real life, they do that. There're videos of, there's this one where he's in an enclosed container with a screwed-on lid thing. That octopus just gets out.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad I didn't know that. [laughs] I would have been running, running out of there. Anyway, so, all this because of the Tasmanian Devil, yes, they are creepy looking, but they're cute in the cartoon, and it is one of my favorite cartoon characters.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's why we're talking about this. Okay.

Gin Stephens: So, let's hear about the Tasmanian Devil's fasting question.

Melanie Avalon: The subject is: "ADF and weight loss." The Tasmanian Devil says, 'Dear Melanie, and Gin, thank you so much for your podcast, books, Facebook groups, and everything else you do. I hope the value you add to others lives leads to similar abundances flowing into your lives and hearts, too." That is so wonderful.

Gin Stephens: That really is.

Melanie Avalon: She says, "I have listened to all your podcasts, but couldn't find the answers to my questions. I finally decided to write you. My main question is about the speed of my weight loss with ADF and I am hoping you can suggest ways to speed it up. I'm a 46-year-old woman, not yet perimenopausal, and I first started IF two years ago. I lost easily with one meal a day and got to my goal weight of 63 kilograms from a starting weight of 75 kilograms very quickly within five short months. On that occasion, I combined it with weightlifting three times per week. I'm 5'5". I developed some ear, nose, throat health issues last year, and relaxed my window, and ate more unhealthy and processed foods. I gained more weight than I had originally wanted to lose and I got to 81 kilograms. I restarted my IF journey with one meal a day for one month, and then quickly moved to ADF, and have been doing true every other day water only fast for the last seven months. I haven't been able to exercise this time due to an ankle injury. I'm only losing one kilogram every three weeks or so. I eat really well on my eating days, mostly Whole Foods, mostly plant based, but some meat as well. I still have at least nine kilograms to lose to get to my goal of 63 kilograms. Although, this time I am a strangely smaller size at a higher weight." I don't think that is strange. I think I know why that's probably happening.

Gin Stephens: Body recomposition in action losing the fat, but maintaining your lean muscle mass. That is exactly why.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. She has a few questions. Maybe we can go through this one by one.

Gin Stephens: All right.

Melanie Avalon: Her first question. She says, "Is IF weight loss slower/harder/less actual scale weight loss, if you have to do it over a second or third time after regaining?

Gin Stephens: Well, I find it interesting that you're saying your weight loss is slow, or hard, or not happening, because here's why. A kilogram every three weeks is actually almost a pound a week and that is really right on target. That sounds perfect to me. It sounds she was doing a one-meal-a-day plan in the past, and was doing weightlifting at the time, and then stops doing intermittent fasting, gained weight, restart intermittent fasting, but now is doing alternate daily fasting, and not exercising, but losing at almost a pound a week. If you're losing a kilogram every three weeks or so, if you have nine kilograms to go, you'll get there in half a year. Just be patient. Again, here's something I want you to keep in mind. Instead of having that goal weight of 63 kilograms, since you've mentioned that you're having body composition, you may find that you get to your goal size, your goal body, and you're higher than 63 kilograms, because you're losing fat so well.

Alternate daily fasting, you're really tapping into your fat stores during those longer fasts that you're doing every other day. Clearly, you're maintaining your muscle mass very well if you're smaller at a higher weight than you had been before. I would say that you are just doing amazingly so great. The next question I can see it right here is, "What can I do to speed it up?" Not a thing. You do not need to speed it up. It is absolutely fantastic. That's what I have to say. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I will answer the question objectively, just in general. Her experience aside about, "Is IF weight loss slower, harder, less actual scale weight, if you have to do it over a second or third time after regaining?" That is very likely, actually. Just because we know that with regaining and losing, and regaining and losing, and regaining and losing for a lot of people, it does get harder and it could be a few different things going on. I've talked about this at length before on the show. But when I interviewed Joel Greene, he talks about what actually happens to fat cells, when we gain and lose weight from them, and it has to do with their extracellular matrix, which is basically their outer membrane clothing. The more you stretch and expand, and shrink and stretch, it makes it stiffer in a way, and it makes it less likely to actually make changes to the fat cell to be smaller. It can make it harder the more that you go through this process.

Then on top of that, depending on-- this is not speaking specifically to the Tasmanian Devil, but in general, if you're losing and regaining a lot, so not just a small amount fluctuating within normal weight levels, but actually becoming overweight and then losing weight, and then becoming overweight. When fat cells are overfilled, they release inflammatory cytokines. They're in an inflammatory state and that creates cellular damage to the cells, mitochondria, so, how they're generating energy, their willingness to burn fat. The more inflammatory state that you get in by gaining, the harder it can make it to lose. Not that you can't, but can just make it harder.

Then also, there are lots of theories surrounding setpoints, which is possibly governed by the hypothalamus in our brain, and this is hotly debated, but there are theories about the body preferring to be at certain weights. With gaining and losing, and gaining and losing, it might play with that and create a point where your hypothalamus more likely wants to try to maintain a higher weight. So, her aside, this can be a thing. It doesn't mean that you can't lose the weight.

Gin Stephens: Well, I also would think that one of the factors would be why did you gain it and it might be because something's different in your body that caused you to gain it. If there's something going on that caused you to gain weight, maybe you took steroids, or maybe you had an illness, or whatever it could be, maybe you're menopausal. If that caused you to gain weight and you also quit intermittent fasting, then it's also that thing that caused you to gain the weight is also going to make it harder to lose the weight. So, there's just so many factors. It's hard to say yes or no.

Melanie Avalon: Very true, very true. For speeding it up, I know we don't think she needs to speed it up.

Gin Stephens: She's also eating really well.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. In general, as far as speeding it up, I think there are little things you can do that can really add up. She is eating well. I'm always be the one to say that. I think there's a lot of magic though that can't happen with food choices. I talked about this, I think last show, maybe having a few days where you eat the high-protein, low-fat, and low-carb meals. If you're doing such a one-meal-a-day window, like having a few days per week when you do just those foods, that might be a way to really speed up your weight loss. The power of staying active in your fasting window, so, making sure that you're moving. If you are working out, if you do that near the end of your fast when you're really deep into a fat burning state, I think that can be pretty productive.

Gin Stephens: Yep, and she said that she had not been able to exercise because of an ankle injury.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When she is able to exercise again. Yeah, I really just look at those two things.

Gin Stephens: All right. You ready for the next question? Go ahead with that one.

Melanie Avalon: She says, "I have not had my period over the last two months. Could I be stressing my body out? I feel great while fasting and have very little hunger. I could extend my fast, but I don't go over 42 hours usually.

Gin Stephens: All right, so, this is a question that it does raise a bit of an alarm that you could be overstressing your body, but I feel that doesn't happen unless you're losing really quickly as well. You're not overexercising, obviously, because you're not exercising right now, and it doesn't sound you're over restricting. I would look and see what has caused you to lose your period. Also, you're 46. I know you said you're not yet perimenopausal, but how do you know that? Because if you've lost your period, that really is what happens when you're perimenopausal. That was exactly when I started having weird period stuff. My cycles got longer. Instead of every, let's say 28 days, it might be 72 days, and then boop, there's another period. That happened for years. I took a bunch of pregnancy tests all throughout my 40s just because things got wacky and I'm like, "Oh, God." Thank goodness, they all were negative, because I was in my 40s. But I have all of my period data from 2012 on because I got an app at that time and I could see how it changed over time. But I think it's pretty much textbook. I went through perimenopause like a textbook way. That actually started prior to intermittent fasting. So, I can't say it was because of intermittent fasting that my period got out of whack. It happened before.

But as I went through the transition, it just continued. I think that's just very, very normal. I would talk to your OB-GYN about that and it could just to be normal perimenopause, even though you don't think you're perimenopausal you might be, or you could have your hormones checked and see, or you could really dig deep. If you are over restricting, you'll know it. You said that you don't usually go over 42 hours, that's good. You're having a significant refeed or eating at least two meals on your up-day. If you have in the back of your mind, "Could I be over restricting and not eating enough?" If you think that might be true, I definitely don't think that about myself. I know, I'm not [giggles] in danger of over restricting, because I know I eat very, very well. But if you have that, "Could I be over restricting?" Then you might be? Think about that. But again, I would feel like, what would happen is you would have some other things going on that would give you a clue that that's what's happening. But definitely talk to your OB-GYN and see what he or she thinks.

And also, if you suspect that you're over restricting, then maybe it's time for you to stop with ADF. Maybe you should go with the daily eating window approach, and have maybe a five-hour eating window, and see what happens. I think that could make a difference if you feel like the ADF is over stressing your body. But we can't tell you yes or no. In general, the research on ADF, it didn't tend to cause that type of an issue or at least they didn't report it. If it did in the literature that I've seen, but also, we are all very much a study of one. It is possible. You could be over restricting, but it's also possible that you're not and it's just typical 46-year-old perimenopause happening.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. I thank you. I have nothing to add. She says, "Strangely, I sleep like a baby on the fasting day, but can't get to sleep easily on the eating days. Why is this? Shouldn't it be the other way around?"

Gin Stephens: Well, that would be more typical, but again, we're all a study of one. [laughs] I find I have a harder time sleeping if I overdo sugar or alcohol that keeps me very, very restless. Or, if I over restrict. If you feel you're on your eating day that you're in that wired ketosis state, that might mean you're not eating enough on you are up-days. Keep that in mind. You may need a longer, maybe just do 36:12 and see if that helps.

Melanie Avalon: Does she give the times that she's eating?

Gin Stephens: She doesn't. She's just doing a true ADF, but rarely fasting over 42 hours. But if she's doing 42:6, that could be restrictive.

Melanie Avalon: Just to speak to that, too, actually, I think 42 can very easily be restrictive for a lot of people really anything. For some people, they feel a one meal a day is too restrictive.

Gin Stephens: Well, when she says I could extend my fasts, I absolutely would not extend your fast. I would scale them back more than extend. More is not always the answer.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. But as far as the sleeping, the reason I was wondering when she's eating, it could be that you're just eating too close to bed.

Gin Stephens: For your body.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If you're especially maybe in this approach, you're eating more than your body was accustomed to historically eating before bed. So, I look at that, I will look at the food choices that you're eating, how digestible are they, are you having digestion issues at all? If you find that you sleep better fasted you might just want to try, again, I don't know when you're eating, but you might want to try not eating as close to bed when you do eat.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, open your window earlier. Breakfast, have breakfast. Breakfast, lunch, and an early dinner and see if that helps.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. She says, "Once I get to my goal would 5:2 be a reasonable maintenance to trial first?"

Gin Stephens: You certainly could. It's all about what you enjoy. Do you want to eat every day or do you want to have down-days? It's up to you, I like to eat every day. For me, I don't want to do any full fasts twice a week, or once a week, or whatever. I don't want to. I want to eat every day. But if you absolutely love having a 36-hour fast followed by an up-day, and you would like to do that twice a week, and then the other days, it can be whatever eating window feels right to you, do it. You are in charge at all times of what feels good. Would that be maintenance for you or would you continue losing weight, or do you need longer windows? You'll only know once you get there and see what feels right. You'll really listen to your body, because I got more hungry when I got to maintenance, I needed more food. So, that's very normal as well to be in slightly longer windows once you get to goal.

Melanie Avalon: Yep, it's really all about the thing that makes you happy with maintenance.

Gin Stephens: Yep. What feels good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She says, "Is lack of exercise stalling my weight loss?"

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's hard to know. Again, you're losing almost a pound a week and you're seeing body composition, which indicates you're losing fat, but maintaining muscle. Honestly, it sounds really, really good to me. I wouldn't stress about it. As you're feeling better and your ankle is better, if you can start being more active then you'll know the answer to that question. I'm one of those people genetically based on the limited genetic data we have based on the thing when I had my DNA and analyzed, it said, "I am genetically someone who is less likely to lose weight exercising." But some people are more likely. The people who are listening, who are like, "Yeah, I never lose weight unless I'm exercising," that's probably true. For me, I never in my entire life saw a connection between adding an exercise approach and weight loss. That's just me. People might be like, "That's not true." Well, that was true. It seemed true for me. I just got really hungry. [laughs] Whenever I exercised, I ate, it balanced out. My body just balanced it out with an increased appetite. I'm not saying exercise isn't great. I do exercise. We've talked about that before. It's just will it lead to weight loss. That's the question. What if I say to you, "No, exercise does not make me lose weight," that doesn't mean I'm saying, "So, you shouldn't exercise."

Melanie Avalon: By exercise, are you speaking more to cardio, or strength training, or what type of exercise?

Gin Stephens: Well, I never saw any increased weight loss with any of it, personally. But I know some people do some people-- we're all different when it comes to how our bodies respond to that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Again, I don't really do concentrated exercise sessions, but I feel best in my body when I'm moving a lot throughout the day, doing a lot of functional type movement, and wearing my weights, and all that stuff. So, yep. Although, I continue to be very addicted to Emsculpt, so, the muscle stimulation, I've been doing that a lot. I am seeing major, major changes with it.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: It's incredible. I've been doing my arms, glutes, hamstrings, and abs. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to do it for life, because I think it's really, really healthy to build muscle.

Gin Stephens: You're seeing muscle building?

Melanie Avalon: Oh yeah. Fat reduction, muscle building, toning. It's building because I just started doing-- While I'm on my third session on my hamstrings and I'm really feeling the changes there. The arms have been great. It's very exciting.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes, we have a question from Nancy and the subject is: "Why follow the circadian rhythm?" She says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, the information you provide is invaluable. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for teaching us and keeping us informed of the latest and accurate information. My question. Why do we follow the circadian rhythm of 24 hours when fasting i.e. 20:4 or 18:6. I have some health issues and I am wondering if a longer fasting rhythm would give me more of the healing benefits of intermittent fasting. I'm thinking 36:12 or 40:8. Is there research where people have consistently followed a longer cycle such as this?" Nancy. We just talked about that actually. Yes, we did. There is and I just recommended that Tasmanian Devil do 36:12. [laughs] So, Melanie, what do you say to this?

Melanie Avalon: I recently published a blog post and it was actually featured as well in the latest issue of Biohackers Magazine, but it is at melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming. I dive deep, deep, deep into the circadian rhythms of the body. This is just to answer "why do we follow the circadian rhythm of 24 hours when fasting? In general, and I believe the reasoning for that is that longer fasts assign our bodies as human beings and our hormones pretty regularly follow a 24-hour cycle with fluctuating rhythms. That has a lot to do with light. Basically, everybody's body daily is going to go through rhythms of different hormones involved in fat burning, and energy use, and so many processes in the body. That's ghrelin, the hunger hormone, leptin, the satiety hormone, insulin, which is involving if you're storing nutrients, cortisol, a stress hormone, but that can help you release energy stores as well. Adrenaline, norepinephrine, epinephrine, there's so many hormones and those hormones are not on a 36-hour or a 40-hour cycle. They're on a 24-hour cycle.

That would be a reason that, in general, we are adapting our fasting as a lifestyle to fit within that rhythm. That said, there are people who do the other approaches. But as far as like, she has some health issues and is wondering if a longer fasting would give her some of the healing benefits, quite possibly, I'm not sure what the health issues you experiencing are. It's always something that you could play with. Thoughts, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I just wanted to reiterate. One reason we talk about things in numbers like 20:4 and 18:6 or 19:5 is just because there're 24 hours in a day. We talk about them because that's how many there are. But when you're fasting, it doesn't have to-- We're fasting over an overnight period. It's part of two different 24-hour periods. Your fast is part of this day and part of that day if I'm explaining that well. It might not add up neatly to 24. I might do, for example, yesterday, Chad and I went out to eat, and I fasted until probably 7 PM. I had a 24-hour fast and then I had an eating window that was probably, we had a leisurely dinner, and then we went somewhere else and had dessert. I probably had a three-hour eating window. I did 24:3. [laughs] You're like, "Wait a minute, it's not possible to do 24:3. How did you do that?" Well, I did 24:3 because I fasted for 24 hours, then I ate for three and that's just how it worked out. Because part of that 24-hour fast was on Friday and the other part or whatever day, yeah, part of it was on Friday, and part of it was on Saturday, and then it just added up to be that. Don't get too caught up in the numbers of making an add up to 24. I just wanted to throw that in there. In a calendar day, it will definitely add up to 24. So, within the day of Saturday, there were only 24 hours in Saturday, but some of the fast was part of Friday's fast and some of it is part of Sunday's fast, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and it also to that point and to Nancy's question, it doesn't necessarily have to be either/or it doesn't have to be you're doing within a 24-hour daily thing, or you're doing this 36:12. You could be doing in general like 24-hour cycles and then have the occasional longer fast.

Gin Stephens: Right. That's exactly what we were talking about with Tasmanian Devil as well, where we were talking about 5:2 and I suggested she could do that with two 36:12 for example in a week. That would encompass four of your days. 36:12, then the next day, maybe you had a 19-hour fast and a five-hour eating window, and then you did another 36:12 or something. There's a lot of room for flexibility. But yes, Nancy, it is true that there's lots of research where people have followed a 36:12 cycle. If you have Fast. Feast. Repeat. read the "Alternate Daily Fasting" chapter because I talk about that research. It's a well-researched approach and it's great for certain things. If you are trying to heal insulin resistance, for example, 36:12 is a great way to do that. It really gets your insulin down, because you're fasting for 36 hours. If you have a slowed metabolism from years of dieting 36:12 would be great for that, because 12 hours for your eating day, your up-day. in the research that they did on that alternate daily fasting, they found that participants slightly overate on their up-day. In that 12-hour day you would slightly over eat, but that boosts your metabolism. That's why it's so great if you feel you have metabolic slowing.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: All right, we have one more question from Stephen and the subject is: "medications." Stephen says, "do any pre-workouts, or supplements, or anti-psychotics, or SSRIs, or medication in general break or stop autophagy from taking place if taken during your fasting window?"

Melanie Avalon: All right. Thank you, Stephen for your question. Out of these categories, things like medications, SSRIs, I don't really think that that's something that we should be worried about for autophagy. Autophagy in general, when the body breaks down old proteins, dysfunctional proteins, and gets rid of them, it cleans up shop or repurpose them in the body, it's a good cellular cleansing renewal process in the body. It's actually happening 24/7. It's always happening. It's gets ramped up in certain situations. So, exercise can ramp it up, fasting really ramps it up. Even coffee has been shown to ramp it up. It's not something that I would even think about as a factor and taking your medication. Things like supplements, straight up vitamins, you should really look at the fillers and things that are in them. A lot of fillers are actually made with amino acids as the filler and amino acids are things that would discourage autophagy. Vitamins and stuff shouldn't really affect autophagy, but depending on the ingredients in the supplements it might be a problem. Pre-workouts, so, if your pre workout is coffee, that's probably going to encourage autophagy. But if your pre-workout has sweeteners or often they have amino acids, things like that, that could hinder autophagy. So, yes. Thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, we don't recommend those pre-workouts out there that they're selling to you, because most of them do have fast breakers in them. You don't need them. They just want to sell you something. Black coffee is a pre-workout that does not break the fast. You can just have your black coffee and that would be great. Medications, never change up your medications without talking to your doctor or pharmacist. So, that's important.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I feel the autophagy thing, people-- not that they're taking it too far, but they're getting really obsessed with it and we don't have charts of, "This stops autophagy or this." We know that certain compounds increase it. In general, lifestyle things like I said, exercise and fasting increase it, but it's hard to say that this will have this X effect on autophagy. I just don't think we have that research.

Yep, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode255. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. Then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens and I think that is all the things. So, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that was it. Again, thank you for sharing your story. I know it was hard to experience it and to go through it, but sharing your story is going to help someone else be brave to share their story.

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you and thank you for being so receptive and for the dialogue. That was really wonderful. Yes, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: Awesome. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the intermittent fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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Feb 27

Episode 254: EMF Blocking, New IF Study, Alternate Day Fasting (ADF), Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF), Calorie Restriction, Supplement Timing, Collagen Peptides, And More!

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Differential Effects of One Meal per Day in the Evening on Metabolic Health and Physical Performance in Lean Individuals

Welcome to Episode 254 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 254 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 254 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Doing great. Coming to you from the beach cottage looking at the ocean. So, that's always good.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny to me that you made a last-minute trip there with the amount of time that it gets to get there. By this time, I wouldn't have been able to answer like a last-minute email and you made an entire trip to the beach.

Gin Stephens: Oh, by this time of the day?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. [laughs] Yeah, we decided yesterday, we would come down Will and I. Will came with me and we decided, and I'm like, "All right, we have to leave at 9:30."

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, you decided last night. Okay. Never mind, this will be different. I thought you decided today.

Gin Stephens: Well, we decided last night that we would get up and come.

Melanie Avalon: That I could do, because I would have planned.

Gin Stephens: I didn't have to do anything. The thing about coming to the beach, it's so easy. All you have to do is throw clothes in a bag and go, because I have everything I need here, including my toothbrush. I don't need to bring any of that. All I need is clothes. We literally just threw our clothes and bags, hopped in the car, and came down. It takes about four hours to get here with stops, and they're always bathroom, and get more coffee stops for me, but Will is a frequent eater. So, we had to get him food.

Melanie Avalon: Can I ask you a question?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Both at your house and at the beach house, what is on your nightstand?

Gin Stephens: Okay, well, at my regular house, I have a really good sized, a big nightstand that's like drawers. It's bigger than a normal nightstand. It's almost a small chest of drawers. We have one on each side of the bed. They're the same. I have a lamp, and I have a book, and I just chose it because it's Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, and I didn't choose that especially, but it's a southern book. But that's just the one I happen to have, because it's just a black, simple, and I like the name of it. On top of that, I have a vase. Well, it's a blue and white like urn kind of a thing with some dried roses in it. I had the blue and white vase, whatever it is, bowl, it's a bowl. But my neighbor, when we moved in gave me these flowers. They're roses that she dehydrates, and they're white, and they're sitting in. Anyway, that's what I have.

Melanie Avalon: That's all you have? There's nothing else?

Gin Stephens: Well, I have a coaster, in case I want to sit something on. But at the beach, it's a tiny, tiny little bedroom, because this whole house is just under thousand square feet. It's really a tiny little cottage, and it's three bedrooms, two baths, and just under a thousand square feet. That tells you how little it is. The bedside table is literally 12/12, it's tiny. So, nothing sits on that. I have a floor lamp that I turn off and on that's behind it. I have room for a floor lamp, and in that tiny little table and at night I do put my phone on it to charge. Is that what you're going to ask me?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Yes, I do sleep with my phone beside the bed.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I've been brainstorming and gathering data. Have I mentioned on this show about how I went to develop the line of EMF-blocking products?

Gin Stephens: I think you did. Yeah, because we talked about how I have all that electrical stuff coming into my house.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. I've been polling in my Facebook group what people have on their nightstand, because I really want to create something that goes on your phone, so that you can use your phone on your nightstand at night, and be protected from those EMFs. Most people are sleeping, phone is on their nightstand very near to their head. So, I really think that can affect a lot of people's sleep and health.

Gin Stephens: It would not surprise me. I actually started plugging it in the bathroom for a few weeks, and that just lasted a few weeks and I brought it back. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: The way that they finagled the studies, it is stuff that happens in the processed food industry and a lot of industries. The way they set up the studies to establish safety for EMFs, especially with things like phones, it's not any way you'd be using it in real life. It just is not. But when I did my poll about 80 people answered, what do you think was the number one thing and it was open ended. I just said, "What's in your nightstand?" and then I made an Excel doc.

Gin Stephens: A lamp or did they say their cell phone?

Melanie Avalon: Lamp was number two, phone was number three, what do you think number one was? Oh, no, books were number two. Water.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's interesting. I do not sleep with water beside my bed.

Melanie Avalon: I do.

Gin Stephens: Do you?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: You're waking up drinking water in the bed?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, just in case. I'm thirsty in the middle of the night.

Gin Stephens: Nope. I've never once been like, "Man, I'm thirsty in the middle of the night." I think I'll [laughs] some water. Unless I'm in the past days of when I was super hungover, I might would get up and go drink water but that's not something that's typical now at this stage of my life.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, water was number one, then lamp, then book, and then phone.

Gin Stephens: See, I didn't even say phone because it doesn't sit there all the time. That's not a part of my nightstand, it's just there while I'm sleeping. If you'd said, "What's on your nightstand while you're sleeping?" Phone would have made it. But if I just walked into the bedroom, the phone is not on my nightstand.

Melanie Avalon: Very, very true. Other things were like lotion, that had a lot. Phone charger, glasses.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I've got my phone charger. This is how I've made it pretty, so, you don't have to see it. I took one of those Command adhesive hooks and Command adhesived it to the back of the dresser, the bedside table, and then I have the phone charger tied in a knot around that hook. So, I just pull it up to charge, and I throw it back there, so you don't see it during the day.

Melanie Avalon: If I made something for you to put on your phone, when your phone is on your nightstand at night, how would you want it? Would you want it really minimal, would you want it to hold something? What features would you want? What do you want it to have a way that you put your charger?

Gin Stephens: That's super tricky. Could it be also integrated with the charger?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes, it could.

Gin Stephens: See, I'm very into aesthetics and minimal clutter. If it's not pretty and minimal clutter, I'm not going to use it.

Melanie Avalon: That's why my initial feeling was just a very minimalistic box that maybe was a tray on top, but very minimal, and then you put your phone underneath. The cool thing is the blocking. It does not have to go 360 cover completely. It just has to go vertically between you and the phone. Does that make sense? There just has to be like a vertical wall of protection between you and the phone. So, it could be one sided or it could be on a swivel, so, you can turn it around. This is way harder to brainstorm for than I thought. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I can imagine. That does sound hard. Plus, everyone has such a different aesthetic.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was thinking very minimal for the beginning, and then if it goes well make options for different more elaborate things. So, you vote minimal?

Gin Stephens: Well, I do. Just because I'm not going to put something that's bulky or whatever. That's just not my aesthetic.

Melanie Avalon: Well, listeners, if you have ideas or if there are other EMF blocking products you would like, let me know.

Gin Stephens: I was imagining just you slipped it into this little sleeve or something.

Melanie Avalon: That was my initial thought. Now, I'm thinking, but people do really like the charging option. What I really wanted to do was a wireless charging option. So, you're putting it in and it is wireless charging. But that actually itself emits EMF.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, it would have to be have cords, extra cords. I try to minimize the number of cords that are stretching all around when I can.

Melanie Avalon: Same, same, same. Yeah, maybe it just has a slot for the cord. I wish all phones had a universal charger, because then it can be integrated.

Gin Stephens: You wouldn't want it to just have a USB port, because I think all of them plug into that.

Melanie Avalon: Well, the thing about the USB port, because it's due to the USB port that makes it more integrated and easier, then there's the clutter of the cord. Because then you put the phone in, and you plug the phone into your cord, and the cord to the USB.

Gin Stephens: Well, then, I think you just want something with a slot that they put their charger cord that they already have through.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. The life of brainstorming. Did you see, I wanted to talk about intermittent fasting study that came out recently?

Gin Stephens: I might have seen it. I don't remember. I see a lot of things people share them with me obviously as you know. I think I did see something recently. What was it?

Melanie Avalon: It was January 11th.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I saw that.

Melanie Avalon: Differential effects of one meal per day in the evening-

Gin Stephens: Wait, then maybe I didn't.

Melanie Avalon: -on metabolic health and physical performance in lean individuals.

Gin Stephens: They didn't compare it to other meal timing there right.

Melanie Avalon: They compared a single meal and a 22:2 split, which is very cool, because normally I feel it's rare that these studies actually look at one meal a day in two hours versus three meals per day. It was only 13 participants.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure if I saw that. Actually, I can't remember. January 11th is a million years ago. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I know.

Gin Stephens: When I was also-- those were the days when I was hot and heavy recording all the time because Clean(ish) had just come out.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. They consumed the same amount of calories.

Gin Stephens: Okay, yeah, I have not seen this one.

Melanie Avalon: I'll put a link to it in the show notes, but the findings were very favorable. The conclusion was that a single meal per day in the evening lowers body weight and adapts metabolic flexibility during exercise via increased fat oxidation, whereas physical performance was not affected.

Gin Stephens: How long did they do it for?

Melanie Avalon: They did it for 11 days.

Gin Stephens: If I were designing an intermittent fasting study, it would certainly not be for 11 days. It needs to be longer, so that they really have time to develop their metabolic flexibility. It almost seems to me like that's just way too short. I'm happy they found positive things, but knowing what we know about how long it takes your body to adjust, 11 days is nothing.

Melanie Avalon: It was a randomized crossover. They did one of the options, then two weeks washout, and then the other option. What they were focusing on was athletic performance. Oh, and they were wearing a continuous glucose monitor, which is very cool and they did a lot of testing of different athletic performance tests. Like a cycle test, where they check their fat oxidation, and their maximum oxygen uptake, they did a strength test.

Gin Stephens: And again, I think that it would make so much sense to give them time to really adapt, because I bet and on a 11 day, I know that a lot of people, obviously, the group that they used was athletic lean males, so, they probably adapt more quickly than someone maybe a 45-year-old woman, who's been struggling with her weight for decades. It's a different group of people. But I could imagine for someone like that in the second group, someone who's metabolically not healthy. They could actually have reduced performance during the first 11 days. I would actually predict that instead of improved performance.

Melanie Avalon: These people were healthy, they were trainers-- Well, not trainers, they had training experience. Their BMI was between 20 and 30, their fat was between 12% and 30%. They were likely already a more metabolically healthy population. it was a small study, very small. It's only 13 people.

Gin Stephens: Anybody who's listening, we would love to have some studies where people have time to become really adapted before we see how their body change. Or, maybe you could check them all throughout as they adapt to. That would be fascinating. See how the body changes every day as you're going through the adaptation period and we certainly know anecdotally from people who go through it, it's very common to feel good, and then you feel terrible, and then you feel better, and there's a lot that our bodies have to go through as we're adapting. I would not judge intermittent fasting on what happens in the first month to your body is all I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think it's a little bit better just based on, this wasn't like menopausal women who are sedentary. This was like active, young, healthy people. Well, there was one really interesting finding. They actually found lower blood sugar levels during the second half of the day in the one meal per day group. Isn't that interesting?

Gin Stephens: Well, it echoes what I find in my experience. When I was wearing the CGM, my blood glucose went down and stayed down after my body flipped that metabolic switch every day. That's exactly what my body did. So, I'm not surprised at that at all.

Melanie Avalon: They ate between 5 PM and 7 PM for the one meal a day.

Gin Stephens: That's a cool study.

Melanie Avalon: So, we will put a link to that in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I had not seen that one. I saw something. I can't remember what I saw. Something came out recently and I don't remember a thing about it, except that it was positive. But it definitely wasn't that. Unless someone shared, and all I did was read the abstract, and didn't dig in, it is possible, and it didn't register. I know there was something that came out, but my brain is full. [laughs] Stuffs falling out right now actively.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. It was funded by a diabetes foundation.

Gin Stephens: Well, I definitely think that this is a great protocol for fasting for anyone who has diabetes as we know from The Diabetes Code.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into some listener questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a question from Shay and the subject is: "2.5 years of IF." Shay says, "I started IF in August 2019 at 125 pounds after hearing about the health benefits. I am 39 years old, five feet 4.75 inches tall." 4.75 that is very specific. She says, "I started with 16:8 and worked my way up to 20:4 within a few weeks as that felt good. I do not restrict anything in my window but aim to eat mostly Whole Foods. I am moderately active. I do Pilates two times a week and walk a few miles each day. I also take a few HIIT classes or HIIT classes here and there. I manage to maintain my 125 pounds, but I started mixing in two full down days when the pandemic hit and I started working from home. I enjoyed the way I felt doing the full down days. How long should we spend on a new method of IF if we decide to switch it up?

Within the past few months, I have gained some weight and now I'm at 133 to 135 pounds depending on the day. My pants are definitely showing the tightness as well. I'm not happy with how I feel or how my clothes are fitting. I played around with a modified ADF with two 500 calorie days a week. I'm not sure if I like the full down days or the modified down days better. I've been able to do both with no issue. I have blood work down with my doctor and everything came back great. I'm feeling very discouraged with IF and the fact that I've gained around 10 pounds. I believe that I am just able to eat a lot more than I should be in my eating window. This is where it would be helpful to have a guideline of how many calories, etc., I should be consuming per day, but I know we want to avoid a diet mindset. Help, I have no idea what IF schedule I should be following, or what type of diet I should be eating, or does IF no longer work for me. But I do know is that I'm 10 pounds up and I do not want to give up the health benefits of IF." frowny emoji.

Gin Stephens: Well, there's a lot in there, Shay, and I know it's super frustrating to be gaining weight, and not understanding why. I can remember this is before I was doing intermittent fasting, I gained 50 pounds in 18 months. I was not doing intermittent fasting at the time, but I gained 50 pounds in 18 months, and I did not change what I was eating or doing during that period of time. Well, okay, I say that. I did stop taking diet pills. [laughs] That was that period of time in my life when I stopped taking the diet pills. Other than that, though, I didn't change what I was eating or doing. But I was no longer taking diet pills and I gained 50 pounds in 18 months. I remember talking to the doctor, I'm like, "I don't know what's happening. I'm not eating more," but I probably was. I was under a lot of stress, I'd probably messed up my body in many, many ways, I had some hormonal changes going on, I had used one form of birth control and switched to a different one. There were so many variables going on at the time.

But something changed in what I was doing or in my body and the weight just piled on. It certainly didn't seem I was eating so much food that I should be gaining 50 pounds. But I tell that story to say that the body is really, really complicated and there are so many factors. So, let's unpack what's happened. You are between 133 to 135 right now, and you're almost 5'5". You and I are about the same height. You are in a healthy weight range, because the last time I got on the scale-- I'm 5'5". The last time I got on the scale back in 2017, I saw a weight of I think it was 130. We're a very, very similar size. I know that is no comfort if you feel you're fluffier than you want to be. It doesn't matter. Well, I don't care that Gin and I are the same size. I want to be leaner and I get it. But I'm telling you that you are in a healthy weight for your body. Now, if you are slowly gaining and you're going to keep gaining, that's definitely not okay. Now, if your body is just come to a new point where it's settling, that's different. Maybe this is the way your body wants to be right now at this stage of your life. Our bodies do change over time for whatever reason.

But I would ask you to look back and think, you've been doing intermittent fasting for two and a half years, and it sounds like for two years of it, your weight was stable or even just over two years, because it was only recently that you started to gain weight. Something changed. Something in your body has changed. When I look back to me at that time, when I rapidly gained 50 pounds in 18 months, there were several things that changed. I stopped taking diet pills, I moved, I was under a great deal of stress, my birth control was changing. All those factors, I can't put my finger on-- Well, it was the quitting the diet pills, that probably was a huge factor. Oh, it was the birth control change. Actually, my weight started to go up before I stopped taking the diet pills when I changed my birth control that really felt it was a factor at the time. All that again to say, our bodies are really, really complicated. You asked, does IF no longer work for me? Well, of course, IF still "works for you," because intermittent fasting is a very healthy way to live. Of course, IF is working for you. It's a very healthy way to live. We're talking about the weight gain.

Intermittent fasting itself does not "cause" weight gain. You haven't been doing this approach for all these years, and maintaining your weight, and all of a sudden, intermittent fasting broke, right? That isn't what happens. But something in your body has changed and I would see if I could figure out what that might be. It could be the stress, it could be a new medication, it could be maybe you were sick. I know, I've talked before. I don't know if on this podcast if I have, I probably have. I have a friend that got food poisoning, and it changed her gut dramatically, and it took her over a year to get back to health from that. So, see if you can go back and see what might have changed at the time. Intermittent fasting doesn't "stop working," but there's something you're going to have to dig into more deeply. I don't know what you said. Your very last sentence was, I do not want to give up the health benefits of IF. I don't know why you would. To me, if you quit intermittent fasting and went to an all-day eating paradigm, I can't imagine that causing more weight loss or health benefits than sticking to intermittent fasting. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Like quitting intermittent fasting, I feel you might would see really rapid weight gain at that point if your body's already having some weight gain. I don't feel that would be the answer, but I would try to figure out, what could it have been? What could have changed in my body, what happened right before the weight gain started, have I been under a lot of stress? Maybe your body doesn't like the down days, because you talked about how you're very, very active. You do Pilates, you walk every day, you do high intensity interval training here and there, you were maintaining, then you started doing two full down days, and you were working from home. Maybe that feels too much for your body. Maybe you need to go back to a daily eating window approach and see. I don't think that more fasting is always the answer. It could feel too much to your body, but that also might not be it. It could be something else. It could be something that's changed with your gut or something that's changed with your health. Something that's changed hormonally. Maybe you're like, "Oh, that's when I started taking-."

Melanie Avalon: Or, a medication.

Gin Stephens: -such and such medication. Exactly. "Oh, that's when such and such happened, that's when I had this illness and I'm still inflamed from that." For example, I'm just going to say COVID. We don't talk a lot about COVID on here, because that's not our expertise, and the science is unfolding. But COVID causes a great deal of inflammation in the body. Anecdotally from people that are in the Delay, Don't Deny community, we're seeing a lot of people, who after going through COVID have a lot of inflammation that sticks around for a really, really long time. What comes along with inflammation, weight gain. That's just an anecdotal kind of a thing, but that's a factor. We're still learning, of course, what the long-term effects of COVID might be on the body, but how long does the inflammation go on, long COVID, I don't know.

You didn't mention whether you had COVID or not, but I'm just throwing that out there. Maybe somebody is listening and they're now they're having the ding, ding, ding going off in their head of, "Oh, my gosh, I did start having increased inflammation after COVID, and my weight went up, and I had been stable before that." Does that mean intermittent fasting has stopped working? I would say in that case, that means your body probably needs it more than ever, because we know intermittent fasting tends to decrease inflammation. Anything you could do to decrease inflammation would be a good thing. I know I talked all around in circles. [laughs] I hope that this is just a temporary little blip weight gain and you're not just going to keep going up and up like I said, because really 133 to 135 is a healthy weight. I know if we've been 125 for two years, we feel really good at that. It doesn't feel good to go up at all, and then stabilize at a new spot. I know that's frustrating. So, hopefully some of what I said will help somebody. Hopefully, you. Hopefully, it'll help you go, "Oh, it's got to be this, and then you can start thinking about what to do next." But as far as the part about us telling you how many calories to eat, that wouldn't make any sense at all just because our bodies are all so different.

Calories in, you can only adjust calories in so much, but then it's the calories out that makes all the difference what your body does. If your body slows your metabolic rate, you can have the same exact amount of calories you've always had, and now, you're gaining weight, because your body has allowed your metabolic rate for whatever reason. There isn't going to be a calories formula we could give you, because our bodies are too different. I know I went all around, and around, and around on that answer, but there's just a lot going on in there, and it's hard to know. So, what do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I thought those were all fantastic thoughts as per usual. I actually had some follow up questions for you. It's such a perfect question she asked, because we were just talking about this with that other study. So, how would you answer her question about how long should we spend on a new method of IF if we decide to switch it up?

Gin Stephens: I think you need to give yourself time to see what happens. I can't give you a number of that as well. If you don't like it, then you can stop. You don't have to give it time. I say that, but with ADF, for example, some people might not like it the first day, but after they've done it for a week, they settle in. Maybe give yourself a week to see if you like it. Then two or three weeks, at least, minimum to see if anything changes or at least even a month. The longer you give it the more you'll know if it's suiting you. If you absolutely hate it, let's say you try a down day with full fast, no calories, zero calorie, clean fast down day for 36-hour fast, and then a 12-hour up day, for example. Let's say, you feel miserable and you hate it. You might be like, "Oh, I felt shaky, I felt terrible, I don't like that." You might want to try it one more time a couple weeks later just to see if that was just a one off or if really, "Okay, I feel the same way again, I don't like it." Then you have permission to never try that again if you hate it.

Melanie Avalon: And then second related question, because I find with ADF, I feel like most people are pretty aware of if they like it, don't like it, and then if they modified or just complete, like a full down day, she says that she doesn't know which one she likes better is one better, if they can do either one.

Gin Stephens: Here's some interesting stuff about the research. People actually lost more weight when they had the 500-calorie down day. There's this mistaken-- Oh, the full fast is "better," but they actually had better weight loss results or I think even fat loss results on the 500-calorie down day. Now, we don't recommend that you like to snack on the 500 calories all day long. Keep it in a really short eating window at whatever time of the day works better for you. For that, you're doing a clean fast, then you have the meal, then you have a second clean fast. Sometimes, people get really confused. They're like, "Doesn't food break a fast? So, why am I eating a meal?" Well, yes, it breaks the fast. It does break the fast. You're not fasting during the part of it where you're eating the 500-calorie meal. Because some people get really confused. They're like, "I did a 42-hour fast and I had the meal." I'm like, "Well, you didn't do it 42-hour fast with a 500-calorie meal in the middle of it. What you did was maybe a 21 hour fast and then the 500-calorie meal, and then you did a second fast that might have been 20 hours and a half or something. So, that's not a 42-hour fast.

Eating a 500-calorie meal does break the fast? Yes, but it is a well-researched ADF approach, and it was great at giving the participants the metabolic benefits because of the up day, they had great fat loss. So, there is no "better." It's all what feels good to you. You don't have to do it the same way every time. There are some people who just say, "You know what? I'm going to do a full fast if it feels right." If maybe around the time I normally eat dinner, I'm really, really struggling, I'll eat a 500-calorie meal, and then have the second fast, and that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have to be the same way every time, and it isn't always going to be one versus the other.

Melanie Avalon: You have good answers for both of those. Yes, so, going back to everything that Gin originally said about Shay's question, I agree 100% that there are so many factors that could have changed that would lead to this. It's not necessarily the fasting. There could be a big change that happened, so, revisiting all of that. Something I wanted to touch on was, she asked us a guideline of calories and Gin was saying that there's not one answer for people, which I agree with as well. But I wanted to touch on, you're saying that we don't give a guideline of calories because we want to avoid a diet mindset. I believe it is possible to live in a paradigm of what you're eating that does influence what you're eating without being a diet mindset. The calorie counting, that's where I feel it is becoming restrictive, because when you are calorie counting, you're putting an end point to, "I cannot have any more food after this point even if I'm still hungry." It's automatically being restrictive, because it's saying that you cannot have more food after a certain point in time when the eating period should be a time when you're eating to satiety till you're full, not to some imaginary finish line that you can't cross.

On the flipside, you can make conscious choices I believe about what you're eating and I don't consider that to be a diet mindset or even restrictive. It's just because you're choosing what foods you are choosing to eat. If you're making certain choices in that food realm, it can encourage in a way automatic calorie restriction potentially based on the foods that you're eating. I don't know what you're eating Shay, which actually--

Gin Stephens: Well, she said mostly wholefoods.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wholefoods, okay. Shay is eating mostly wholefoods. But just to expand the question a little bit beyond Shay and then I will come back to Shay specifically, if a person is eating more on the processed food realm just switching to wholefoods, for example, it could make a massive, massive difference, and their satiety, and the level of calories they consume to reach that satiety. I don't consider that a diet mindset. It could become a diet mindset, but I don't think it has to be. For Shay, mostly wholefoods is still vague. You could keep playing around and trying different fasting things or you could look at what you're eating, and maybe play around, and make tweaks there. That might have a pretty measurable effect. I don't know, if you have tried low carb, that might be something to try. I don't know if you've tried lower fat from wholefoods. That could be something to try. But there's a lot that could possibly be done there in regards to what you're eating. Then the mostly part, maybe it is really mostly wholefoods or maybe it's mostly wholefoods, but then enough of non-mostly wholefoods that create a state where you're not losing weight, that's a possibility as well.

Gin Stephens: The part that really strikes me is just that she was weight stable with what she was doing for over two years and then all of a sudden, bam, up 10 pounds.

Melanie Avalon: How did it align with a pandemic? So, she started working from home?

Gin Stephens: Yep, and then she started switching up to the down days, and I'm not really sure when the weight gain began. Yeah, I just don't know. I don't know when the weight gain started. That's the question that I'm not really sure about. But she's been doing it for two and a half years overall and she said that she's gained the 10 pounds. It sounded pretty quickly and recently.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, in a few months, basically.

Gin Stephens: It sounds like the pandemics been going on for a long time. So, it seems it just all of a sudden has happened even as the pandemic has been going on.

Melanie Avalon: As far as guidelines of how to help this, something else we could try. I recently interviewed Maria Emmerich. I have not aired the show yet. She talks a lot about the protein-sparing modified fast approach. The interesting thing about her approach, so the protein-sparing modified fast approach is, while there are a lot of definitions to it, but I think the clinical definition, like, when they would use it in the studies is, its calorie restricted and its basically just protein. It is very calorie restricted. It actually could fall into a modified ADF approach.

Gin Stephens: Is it down day? It's a down day, a protein down day.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, only protein and then weighing chicken breasts, and egg whites, and stuff like that. Then you can maybe add lettuce and I think broccoli, like, some greens. I do actually think so just stepping aside if one is doing some severe calorie restriction, making it mostly protein in my opinion is the way to go to maximize muscle mass preservation and overall health and wellness. Maria Emmerich's approach, though, is not calorie restricted at all. She advocates for having a couple days a week of PSMF day, and basically on that day you just eat PSMF foods. So, it's not calorie restricted, but the effect of it, and she has all of these recipe books. She gave me a discount code. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. She has amazing recipe books. But basically, you can eat these really delicious meals. I'm in shock with all the recipes she's come up with, but they're basically just protein. That for a lot of people can be the thing that can really jumpstart this whole process. That's something you could try, basically, keep doing-- Is she doing one meal a day? 20:4, yes.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's hard to know what she's doing exactly right now, because she said she's doing some down days with ADF. I don't really know exactly what she's doing this minute. She was doing a couple down days. I don't know if she still is.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. That is something you could try where a few days a week you do a one-meal-a-day type approach in your 20:4 window and you eat these PSMF foods. I actually think that that might especially since ADF in the past has-

Gin Stephens: Been something that she enjoyed?

Melanie Avalon: -enjoyed. Yes. I think that might really, really work for you. Then I also just reread the sentence, because all I was saying that she eats mostly wholefoods. I didn't read the part before that. I do not restrict anything in my window, but aim to eat mostly wholefoods. There might be things slipping in there that because of whatever they are, are going to make it difficult to lose weight. Those are my two suggestions. Looking at what you're eating anyways, and then possibly trying this PSMF days approach.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, let us know, Shay, and really, really do that deep dive into what changed. What change, what was different? Were you sick, was it a medication, something like that? If you can think of something, then let us know.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. The medication for example, that could be something that you might not notice it until you notice it, and then it's made metabolic changes that have encouraged your body to be at this new setpoint. I don't want to make a sound hopeless, but it's medications can make your body, and your hypothalamus, and everything slowly come to a different weight, and really want to stay there.

Gin Stephens: That's really my whole journey to when I gained all that weight. It was really I had been taking the doctor prescribed diet pills off and one to maintain my weight for several years and maintaining no problem. I wasn't taking them every single day of my life. There were periods of time when I would take them and then not take them. But as I took them from the doctor, like I said, but then I changed my birth control and then all of a sudden, I gained the first 10 pounds, but I was still doing the diet pills, and not changing what I was eating. Then, shortly after that I was like, "Well, I got to stop taking these diet pills. These are awful for me." I feel terrible. But then the weight gain just escalated. The weight gain began just from when I changed my birth control. There're just so many factors in there, it was hard to know.

We also moved and so that was another reason why I stopped taking the diet pills, because I didn't have the same doctor anymore. I don't know. I've never really made that connection, but that was a big part of it. I'm sure I could have gotten them, and we had been living in Carrollton, and then I moved to Augusta. I'm sure I could have gotten them somewhere in Augusta, but I was like, "Well, we've moved, and I don't have any more, and I don't like the way I feel. So, I'm going to stop now."

Melanie Avalon: I went on birth control in high school for acne. Relatively, rapidly to my life gained a decent amount of weight pretty fast, but you don't really like, you're not expecting it. Because you're not doing anything different besides the medication.

Gin Stephens: Well, see, I had been on birth control. I had two children, I didn't want to have any more at that point I didn't think, but I was on birth control regularly, but then I just switched to a new one. That's when my weight started picking up.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. All righty, well, let us know, Shay.

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Gin and the subject is: "bone broth collagen peptide timing, serrapeptase timing." She says, "Hi, ladies. Love the podcast, and all the great information, and recommendations you both have shared over the years. A bit about me. I've always been normal BMI and have been doing one meal a day IF with clean fasting for about two years now, typically, around 20 to 22 hours of fasting with a three-hour eating window. I'll also usually do a 40 to 44-hour fasts about once a week with a longer eating window the next day." As you want to pop in there, Gin, we recommend make sure you have what we would call an up day. I know you said a longer eating window. The recommendation is at least six to eight hours with at least two meals. Three meals would also be fine. All right, so, she said, "I'm omnivorous and typically eat a more wholefood-based diet, but still enjoy some processed snacky type foods and desserts.

My first question is about opening my window with collagen peptides or bone broth with my one-meal-a-day lifestyle. How long after collagen peptides or bone broth should I wait before eating my actual meal? Melanie has mentioned multiple times how breaking the fast with collagen peptides or bone broth can be very nourishing, especially since the gut has been rested and is primed and ready to receive these rich nutrients. That makes sense to me especially since I've heard how collagen can possibly help heal leaky gut. Of note, I don't have any digestive issues that I'm aware of and can eat pretty much anything comfortably, though my gut microbiome was rated as bad when I took the ZOE test. I want to maximize the benefits of opening my window with collagen peptides or bone broth and don't want to rush the process, but I also don't want to extend my eating window longer than necessary. Not because I'm trying to restrict my window, but because if I wait too long, I find I'm too full to eat as much of the actual solid food I was looking forward to having and/or I finished eating too late in the day and end up uncomfortable sleeping poorly and feeling sluggish the next day. I find I just naturally want to stop eating for the day after about three hours."

Melanie Avalon: All right, so that is a great first question. I love, love, love having bone broth on an empty stomach as a way to open your fast because like Gin said, bone broth is really, really rich in collagen and amino acids that can directly really help heal your gut lining. Actually, today's episode, we have Beauty & the Broth as one of the sponsors. That company makes wonderful concentrated bone broth, so you reconstitute it with water. We do have a coupon code. If you go to melanieavalon.com/broth and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON, you can get a discount, and you can listen to the ad about it to learn more about their practices. But it's organic, free of added salt, which is really, really hard to find and it's just delicious. I don't know if it's out yet, but she's launching a mushroom vegan version soon, which is exciting. Again, that one's not going to be as rich in the nutrients for healing the gut lining with bone broth.

That to say, I don't think there's a scientific answer to this question. I will just say anecdotally for me what I do is, I typically when I am opening it with a broth, you know how if you have a liquid meal, or a soup, or something, I think it's just intuitive how long you might need to wait before eating. You're not going to like chug a whole thing of liquid, and then want to eat right away with that dilution of your digestive juices, and HCl, and things like that. When I was doing it, I usually would just have some and then probably, because I tend to do it while I'm making the dinner, I'd be sipping on it. By the time I actually eat, it's probably about 15 minutes later, 20 minutes later. I like to think about it, like, if you were at a restaurant, you're having a soup course to start your meal.

Basically, I wouldn't stress about it too much. I would just have it probably minimum 10 minutes, again there's nothing scientific behind that, just intuitively what feels best. Then, that all said, I would not sacrifice because you talked about how if you eat too long or if your window doesn't end up being around three hours that it can interfere with your sleep and feeling sluggish. So, depending on your schedule and that night and what's happening, I would choose the overall eating window timing honoring your sleep rather than stressing about the amount of time after the bone broth. You're going to get the nutrients either way. It's not if you don't have it to open your window and you have it with your window that you're not going to get the benefits, you're still going to get the benefits. Basically, I would have it, maybe wait 10 minutes, maybe a little bit longer, but I would honor the overall eating window and how it aligns with your sleep most importantly.

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Gin Stephens: All right, so we have the second part of her question, and it says, "somewhat related, I started taking the Avalon X serrapeptase supplement about a month ago." Congrats, Melanie. "I don't have a specific goal in mind, though, I'm hoping it will help with some scar tissue I have. The directions say to take it on an empty stomach. Number one, how far in the fasted state do I need to wait until I can take it? And two, how long after taking it should I wait before opening my eating window? As with the collagen peptides or bone broth, I want to maximize the benefits of serrapeptase. Would it be reasonable to take it at bedtime about five to six hours into my fast, but wouldn't I still be in the fed state? Since serrapeptase somewhat mimics autophagy, I imagine I also want to wait a good while after taking it before I break my fast, so it can work. Its magic. Thank you, ladies. I appreciate the time you both take for your listeners," Gin.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Gin. Wonderful questions. I have answers for you. The serrapeptase for listeners, who are not familiar, it is a supplement created by the Japanese silkworm, but now we culture it in a lab. It is vegan. When you take it in the fasted state, which I will elaborate on for Gin's question, it goes into your bloodstream and it can break down problematic proteins that your body may be reacting to. It can really help with things like allergies, and inflammation, and brain fog. It's amazing for that. Then studies have shown that it can help enhance wound healing, actually reduce cholesterol, break down amyloid plaque, do so many things. As far as when to take it, she mentioned that it somewhat mimics autophagy. Autophagy is a process that happens in our body during the fasted state. It actually happens 24/7, but it's ramped up in the fasted state. When our body starts breaking down old and problematic proteins in our body to recycle, and reuse, and just clean up shop, the thing about autophagy is like a concept that our body is engaging in is it is influenced by--

If we're eating, that's going to ramp down autophagy, if we're fasting, it's going to ramp it up, if we exercise, it ramps it up, coffee can ramp it up. There are signals that turn it up and down. The way that's different from serrapeptase, once you get the serrapeptase enzyme into your system, it's not ramping up and down as activity based on other signals. It's just doing what it's doing because it's an actual enzyme doing stuff compared to your body deciding to do autophagy if that makes sense. Now, getting it into the bloodstream is why there are so many things you need to follow to take it to make sure that happens, because it is a proteolytic enzyme breaking down proteins. If you have it, it's absorbed in the small intestine, not the gut. It passes through your stomach into the small intestine, which by the way, this is a reason. The serrapeptase is on the market have to have some enteric coating or some sort of protection of the serrapeptase to make sure that it reaches the intestine. If the capsule opens in your stomach, it'll just get degraded. It's actually pretty sensitive enzyme. If it opens in your stomach, you won't get it in your body because it won't make it into your bloodstream. So, it's got to make it to your small intestine.

We've done some tests where we have ordered a lot of our competitor brands and put them in capsules of vinegar, because vinegar mimics the condition of your stomach. Many other brands, they open up really fast, which means they're not even getting to your small intestine. Ours does, which is amazing. All of that to say, if you have it when you have lots of food and in the small intestine, the serrapeptase enzyme can open up in the small intestine, and then instead of making it across your gut lining into your bloodstream, the enzymes will break down the food, the protein, and they won't be active to happen in your body. That's why they need to be taken in a very fasted state. The recommendation is to take it in the morning because then your fasted probably at least eight hours. The more fasted you are when you take it likely the better. But the good thing is, there's less of that window on the other side, because you just need it to be before the food, not after.

It's not like you take it and then you need to fast five more hours to get the effects. You just need to take it on empty stomach, so that it gets into your body. Then once it's in your bloodstream, it's not getting affected by what you're eating. All of that to say, I would recommend taking it in the morning. If you're only taking one and you want to up your dose, I would-- rather than taking it again later, I would try just upping your dose in the morning. But you could try taking it later as well, especially if it is at bedtime, you've been fasted five or six hours, that might be enough time, so that if you wanted to be having a higher dose, you could try that as well, but morning is probably what works best for most people.

Gin Stephens: All right, yep, [laughs] I don't know how to add anything to that. When I took serrapeptase in the past or when I've taken it, I would just take it first thing in the morning after brushing my teeth and then I don't have to think about it. Habit stacking, put things in together, then you won't forget. Brush my teeth, took my serrapeptase, moved on. That was how I did it. Then it was so far away from any eating that I knew it wasn't going to be a problem, perfect.

Melanie Avalon: Of course, to get my serrapeptase, it is at avalonx.us. You can also get on my email list for the whole Avalon X brand, because I will be releasing a magnesium soon. Super exciting. That email list is at melanieavalon.com/avalonx.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'd love to try your magnesium when it comes out.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I will send it to you.

Gin Stephens: I would love it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I want to try it.

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting to be in the final steps of formulating and all of that.

Gin Stephens: Definitely. It seems like now it's going a lot quicker than the first one did, because now you know what you're doing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, quick point to that and this relates to the serrapeptase question. I was so, so committed to finding a filler lubrication option for my supplements that's not toxic or even potentially toxic, because what I realized, I think people have an idea that magnesium stearates, they're cautious about them, but there's a lot of "fillers" that they make it look like it's something else. They make it look like it's vitamin C, but really, it's vitamin C like a palmitate. It's basically like a stearate, a fatty acid ester of these different things or calcium. They do with calcium. They try to make it look like, "Oh, it's calcium that's added, oh, it's vitamin C, when really it's basically a stearate or palmitate." Some supplements don't require any fillers, which is great, but some do.

That's why we came up with this MCT production process. It's a very, very, very small amount. There's a lot of studies on helping absorption of certain things, especially if they're in a liposomal format or-- actually some specifically say with MCTs. It's not liposomal, but it is more emulsified. I know I'm using a lot of supplement words. But the point of it is that we had to develop a whole production process to create this. That was a big hurdle for the first one, but now that we have that in place, we can use that for my other supplements if it requires it. It's definitely an easier step, and yeah, we have more of the parameters down, and working with the formulation, [unintelligible [01:02:54]. So, it's all been really, really wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad.

Melanie Avalon: I'm learning so much.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It's fun to create things. It's all just a very exciting process to accomplish new things that you haven't done before. It's fun to watch you doing something that I have no desire to do. I told Chad, I was like, "I'm never going to have a supplement." He's like, "What?" Because he's a medicinal chemist, drug design is his-- [laughs] Honestly, if I said, "Chad, I'd like to start developing supplements," he would probably get super excited. But I don't have any desire to. So, I'm not going to, but you can be the supplement guru, [laughs] and I'll just take the ones of yours that I want, and that'll be good. I'll know that they're good, because you designed them, but I don't have to do my own.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited to just eventually make everything that I take currently, because then I will just feel so good about taking it. Because I know what's in it. I put it there. I wish there was a way to get rid of, I don't know, I feel there's such a stigma surrounding supplements, because the industry is so unregulated and often scammy, and I don't want to be associated with any of that. But I'm trying to change that in any case.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad, because I think it is important to have good stuff going on.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's what people are putting into their bodies.

Gin Stephens: You'll never sell yours on Amazon or will you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure that. It's funny because I have a lot of friends in the supplement world and I get advice different ways based on that. Some have told me, "Oh, it's the best thing ever." Some have told me, "No, don't do it." We haven't talked about it recently with my partner but I'm not sure.

Gin Stephens: Well, I just know here's a story of a well-known supplement brand that we have endorsed before [laughs] and I still do, and I take their magnesium. Let me just put it that way. A friend of mine uses their magnesium, and instead of ordering it directly from them, decided to order it from Amazon, but she got a copycat that was not them that was pretending to be them, but wasn't.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Really?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. You know how I feel about buying supplements on Amazon?

Melanie Avalon: I noticed they were on Amazon and then I'm like not, were they ever legitimately on?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I don't know if they ever were, but she was like, "Oh, I found it on Amazon and it was less expensive, because it was the free shipping with Prime or something." But then, it was not really them. It was a copycat knockoff. She thought she was getting their brand of magnesium, but it wasn't.

Melanie Avalon: A benefit to not being on Amazon is you can say, I'm not on Amazon. So, if you're buying it on Amazon, it's not me.

Gin Stephens: Well, exactly. That is a good point.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's so nice to have one source.

Gin Stephens: You could actually say, "I don't sell it on Amazon, because I'm concerned that you might get a counterfeit, because you could." That's the thing because what I learned about the way the buy box works, and the way that whoever selling it for the cheapest price, if they were wanted to buy Delay, Don't Deny from Bob's booksellers, if Bob was selling it for $5, it would pop it in the buy box, and they would get Bob's booksellers counterfeit version, not the real one. For months-- we know back in what was it 2018, for months when I noticed my sales were way down, and it was crazy, and I couldn't understand why until I realized what was happening, but people were just clicking "Add to Cart," and they were getting the counterfeit, literally, a counterfeit version. With supplements, if that happened, you would be devastated that people are getting a counterfeit version. You'd have to look at it every single day, multiple times of the day, because see who's in the buy box.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, I hadn't really thought about it to that extent.

Gin Stephens: I like to put everything through the lens of, what if a counterfeiter stole the buy box?

Melanie Avalon: That would be really awful.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. And also, two or three times, one of those crazy Fast. Feast. Repeat. cookbook books that if you go look Fast. Feast. Repeat. on Amazon, there's a Fast. Feast. Repeat. cookbook or something. It's obviously not by me, it might be by Stephen Gin or [laughs] something crazy. You can't copyright a title. They have some crazy book that's just a blank book or something and you're charging $9.99 for it. But more than one time, that book has gotten linked to mine on Amazon. People are thinking they're buying Fast. Feast. Repeat. and it's that crazy one linked to mine. We've had to have it unlinked. It's not exactly the same thing, because it's not a counterfeit, but you know how when you go to a book, and it has the audible version, and the Kindle version, and the paperback version? You can click on the different versions, one of the versions was that crazy one that had gotten linked to mine, because it had the same title. There're just so many things you have to be careful of on Amazon.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know, but I wonder if my supplement being in a glass bottle with slightly deter counterfeit people, because it would be a little bit harder to counterfeit.

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: That's another thing that really sets our line apart. It's hard to find supplements in glass bottles, but yes, all very good points. Things I will think about. Thank you.

Gin Stephens: You got to think about that. What if someone counterfeited it, and it got in your buy box, and people were thinking they were getting yours, but they got the other one, then they're going to try to return it to you, then what do you do? You're like, "Well, I don't have a record of selling it to you." But they're like, "Here it is." It would just be so many can of worms. I would like to be able to say that Amazon is a perfectly great place to buy things and you don't have to worry about all that. But I think Amazon could do a better job, frankly. And I love Amazon. I love Amazon. So, anyone from Amazon who's listening, I'm not criticizing you, I'm just saying you could do better and shoot. I'd be on a committee for free to help you do better. I'm a teacher, I could be on a committee. [laughs] I will give you advice on how to make it better. That's all I have to say about that. They could totally make it better.

Melanie Avalon: It's like one of my best friends from college and I, we wanted to have a little committee, it'll be both of us, and we want final approval or we want final checks on all of the Disney films that come out because we can tell you if this Disney film was going to do too well or not.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. You're going to be on their advisory committee.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, like, I promise you, I can help you.

Gin Stephens: Right. Well, that's me. Amazon, I can help you. I can help you with how to clean up your book section. For example, Fast. Feast. Repeat. is a New York Times bestseller. So, to have a freaky version Fast. Feast. Repeat. blank cookbook published by Stephen Gin makes your site look trashy, Amazon. I'm sorry, but it does. Do you agree with that, Melanie? It's a self-published book. I could right this minute go to Amazon and put up some blank book that I run through their self-publishing arm and sell it in five minutes. You just have to have a cover design, you put it up, you call it a blank cookbook or whatever, bam, it's out there. I could make a book called What When Wine, blank journal, give myself a pseudonym, and sell it. But Amazon should have a quality control. They're like, "Oh, ooh, red flag. There's a real book called What When Wine. That's actually a real book. This is clearly trying to copycat on that." I think that would be a very easy thing to do to fix that problem.

Melanie Avalon: I agree.

Gin Stephens: I've actually had people email me and say, "I bought Fast. Feast. Repeat. on Amazon, and it came, and it was blank. Is it supposed to be blank?" I'm like, "No, it's not supposed to be blank. You bought the cookbook, didn't you? The cookbook or whatever." I would not put a book like that out there in the world. Anyway, Amazon could fix it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, Amazon, if you'd like to email questions@ifpodcast.com.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] You could just email me directly at gin@ifpodcast.com. I would just love to help them, because I have so much love for Amazon in the point that they-- I wouldn't have had a book if it wasn't for their self-publishing. I think their self-publishing is amazing and it changed my life. I love Amazon for that and being able to get Delay, Don't Deny out into the world, no publisher would have let me publish that. It was only because I could self-publish it, and I was able to get it out there, and Amazon allowed me to do that at no charge. But I hate to see Amazon tarnished by the fraud that's going on and I know they could they could spot, especially just if we only talk about within the self-publishing part. If they just had a little more quality control about what gets out there, it would make such a difference. There was one book one time it was some kind of Intermittent Fasting book and it was by Gin Fung.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Gin Fung is not a person. [laughs] That's all I had to say about that.

Melanie Avalon: In any case, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode254. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show or deliver feedback, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com, where you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and yes, I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All righty, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Feb 20

Episode 253: Vegetarians, Bone Broth, Chocolate, Protein, Fructose, Refined Sugar, Fasting While Cooking, Hypoglycemia, Scale Weight, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Effects of intermittent fasting on health markers in those with type 2 diabetes: A pilot study

Welcome to Episode 253 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email Questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

AVALONX: AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Order At AvalonX.us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At melanieavalon.com/avalonx

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Angelika - Newbie

Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

Listener Q&A: Joseph - Intermittent Fasting and Hypoglycemia

Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At Levels.Link/Ifpodcast!

FEALS: Go To feals.com/ifpodcast To Become A Member And Get 50% Off Your First Order, With Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Nancy - IF

Listener Q&A: Janet - Insulin

Intermittent fasting: is there a role in the treatment of diabetes? A review of the literature and guide for primary care physicians

Effect of Various Types of Intermittent Fasting (IF) on Weight Loss and Improvement of Diabetic Parameters in Human

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 253 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin, in turn, lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams, they are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more.

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I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is Episode number 253 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing great. So much to do, so much all the time, but I'm loving it. It's good to be busy, right?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, that is my favoritest thing. What's the thing that you're most excited that you're working on?

Gin Stephens: Oh, just a lot of little things. I love that the community is going so well, The Delay, Don't Deny Community. I'm really enjoying connecting with people in there. That's my favorite talking to people. I'm the kid who when I was in, I guess, it was sixth grade, my desk was put over to the side of the room, so I couldn't talk to people [laughs] because I talk to too many people.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you're that kid.

Gin Stephens: I was that kid. Yes. Arnold from what was that? Diff'rent Strokes? Is that the name of that show, Arnold from Diff'rent Strokes? There's that meme where he's there and he's like, "Sorry, Teacher. Moving my seat won't help, i talk to everybody." Have you ever seen that meme? It might have just gone through all the elementary schools, because it was a very teachery kind of a meme. But have you ever seen it?

Melanie Avalon: I have not.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Well, I've seen it a million times. Well, also, people send it to me or they used to. [laughs] But that was me, no matter where they put me, I'll talk to people. So, I had to be by the wall. I probably talked to the wall, too. I'm not sure. But I just remembered that from sixth grade and I love to talk to people, and so the community is where I get to connect and I love it.

Melanie Avalon: That was not me.

Gin Stephens: Really? You were the good little girl who followed the rules?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I wasn't sure what the rules were at any time. So, I was just probably, randomly just doing things that felt right, whatever it was.

Melanie Avalon: I was the one when nobody's supposed to be talking, and somebody else talks, and I get stressed for them. Yeah, when they be quiet, and then somebody whispering, and I'm like, "Oh."

Gin Stephens: I was the one whispering. [laughs] I wasn't even whispering. I was just right out. I don't know, I was a mess. I was probably ADHD just because knowing what I know now about my brain chemistry and how we've talked about this before, Benadryl hypes me up, caffeine makes me calm, and that's a hallmark of ADHD, stimulants calm you down. So, I'm sure I was ADHD. Back then, this was the 70s to 80s, and I'm sure there were places that were treating it, but I don't remember anyone ever talking about it about me, but I'm certain that it was true, especially watching my own children.

Melanie Avalon: I was not ADHD.

Gin Stephens: I was just all over the place. I'm sure. I wish I could go back in time and see myself from the perspective of the teacher. Here's something that's telling. I have no memory throughout my entire elementary school years of seeing a teacher in the front of the classroom teaching us. I'm sure teachers did that, I have no memory of it. Apparently, that was not what I was focused on whatever the teacher was doing. I don't remember the teacher teaching. I'm sure she was.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's like the majority of my memories.

Gin Stephens: You remember the teacher teaching?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: I remember my third-grade teacher playing the guitar and singing that caught my attention. [laughs] That's all. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I was laser focused.

Gin Stephens: Not me, uh-huh.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I have a little story, an announcement and an announcement-

Gin Stephens: Well, okay.

Melanie Avalon: -and they all relate sort of. So, super exciting. I got to meet my business partner this week for creating the Avalon X serrapeptase supplement. I felt such a business person on a business meeting.

Gin Stephens: Well, that is true. It does feel like that.

Melanie Avalon: Because he had to fly in from Pennsylvania. Shoutout to Scott, because he listens to the show. Because the majority of the stuff that I'm doing, business meetings and calls every single day, but they're related, I don't know, it's just different. They're podcast stuff. This is a different world.

Gin Stephens: This is business. Right here, we're having business [laughs] but it's different. You are right.

Melanie Avalon: It is different. Yeah. So, that was super exciting to just meet in person and brainstorm the future of the Avalon X line. I am so excited, that relates to my unannouncement and my announcement. My unannouncement is last episode, I think. I'm so sad. I talked all about an NMN and we are not making NMN, not right now. The FDA is very interesting, and its rules and regulations, and certain supplements are FDA approved, and some are not, which doesn't mean they're unapproved, but it means they're in a gray zone. Even though NMN is a fantastic supplement and NR, which is another version is FDA approved, it would not be a wise business decision to make a large NMN order right now, just in case something happened, and it didn't get approved with the FDA, then you just have a lot of products that you-- But good news, bad news. That's the bad news. Good news, we've decided what we're going to make instead, and actually our audience probably be more excited, because I know a ton of them love the supplement and already take it. You know what it is Gin, right?

Gin Stephens: Well, no, I'm not sure now. I have two ideas of what it might be, but I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: But I told you.

Gin Stephens: Well, you told me several things. So, I have two in my head that it might be--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I see. Oh, true. Yes. Okay. It's the one that you like a lot.

Gin Stephens: The one that I take all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Okay, that's what I thought.

Melanie Avalon: We are going to make a magnesium. I am so excited.

Gin Stephens: Oh, you did tell me that. You did. I think you texted it to me. So, I remember we had a conversation about it.

Melanie Avalon: Very, very excited, because as you guys know, both Gin and I have been big proponents of magnesium for a long time. In my dream world, we get all of our nutrients from food, that would just be the way it happened. But because of our modern soil, our farming practices, our food today is just not as nutrient rich, and then on top of that, we have a lot of gut issues, issues absorbing nutrients. So, magnesium is one of the nutrients that it's actually very, very hard unless you supplement to get enough of it in our diet. It's one of the ones I've been saying for years at this point. That is one of the ones I think most people can benefit supplementing from. There are a lot of forms of magnesium and people often will just get one form or not get the form that's correct for them because it actually involved in over 300 enzymatic processes in the body. So, so many things use it. But like I said there're different forms.

The magnesium that we're making is going to have multiple forms. I'm not going to say how many, I think I know how many, but those details have not been confirmed yet, so I can't say. But it has a lot. And then, it's going to be made without problematic fillers, it will be in a glass bottle, it's probably going to have methylated cofactors to help with absorption. It's going to be the best magnesium on the market and I can honestly say that.

Gin Stephens: Well, very cool.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm very, very excited. If listeners would like to learn more and get the updates, you can get on my email list. That is at melanieavalon.com/avalonx. By the way, when you sign up for that email list, look for the welcome email, because it might be going to your promotions folder, or your junk, or your spam. Then, once you get the welcome email, you can add that address to your favorites, or VIP, or whatever, so then, you don't miss the emails. Then, of course, if you do want to get the serrapeptase that we currently have, that is at avalonx.us. So, I'm very, very excited.

Gin Stephens: That is very exciting. Can I make a community service announcement just about emails in general?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I have found no way to fix this for me, but for whatever reason, a lot of my important emails go to the spam folder. Whatever, even emails from myself or people that are on my favorites list, and so just FYI. Check your spam folders, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How many email accounts do you have?

Gin Stephens: Well, I have a bunch.

Melanie Avalon: I have 14.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't have 14. [laughs] Maybe five, but they all behave differently. Every week in my calendar, I have things that pop up to remind me to do them. Every Monday, I have certain tasks. I always do on Mondays. So, they come up every week, but twice a week, my daily task reminder to-do is check junk email. I always find something important.

Melanie Avalon: You find something like, "Oh," right?

Gin Stephens: Everyone check it. You're going to be shocked. There was somebody, who was-- Just the other day, I don't know, she emailed me, or messaged me, or she was in my community, I can't remember how she communicated. But in one of those places, I think it was a private message in my community. She said, "Hey, I'm not getting emails for Intermittent Fasting Stories every week like I used to. Are you no longer sending them out? I used to like to get them because it would remind me it was time to listen to a new episode." I said, "Check your spam folder." There they all were. She had been getting them, then she wasn't. But again, for me, even it is people that I have marked as favorites, we'll go there sometimes. Even emails from myself, that's the weirdest. I'm spamming myself.

Melanie Avalon: That is weird.

Gin Stephens: It is, it's so weird.

Melanie Avalon: I always get really excited because I do the same thing. I always get a little bit excited checking the junk, especially if it's an email account where I know, because some of the email accounts have likely more important things coming than others. I check the junk and I'm like, "Ooh, what am I going to find today?" [laughs]

Gin Stephens: But yeah, twice a week, I have to check them. [laughs] Again, people I have marked as favorite in my contact still go to spam.

Melanie Avalon: Crazy.

Gin Stephens: I would like nothing to go to spam. I just don't want anything to go to spam.

Melanie Avalon: Me, too. You know why? Because then, well, except for one account that gets a lot of spam, I do appreciate. A lot of it is stuff where if it did come in, I could block them one and done or I could unsubscribe. It'd be a way to clear out stuff.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But instead, I have to look at them, and take the time, and yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yep.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so, to start things off we have some questions from Angelica and I was thinking we could just take these one by one.

Gin Stephens: That sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect. Oh, my bad from newbie, Angelica. She identified herself as a newbie. Angelica says, "Hi, both. Writing this as I'm listening to you both giggle." We do do that a lot. "Thanks for your podcast."

Gin Stephens: We're having a good time.

Melanie Avalon: We are. She says, "Hope you're both keeping safe. COVID-19 made me lazy and I've gained some weight which I want to shed. Fasting comes easy to me, so I thought of changing my lifestyle and doing IF. I'm currently in my first week and doing 19:5 daily. I have a few questions and appreciate you answering any of them." Well, Angelica, we are going to answer all of them. She says, "I would like to get a better understanding of what I should break my fast with, I'm vegetarian. Lots of confusing info on the net, but I'd like to clarify the whole carbs, fat, protein connection when breaking the fast and what is best to break it with? What are your meal suggestions?"

Gin Stephens: All right, that is a great question. My main suggestion is not a meal suggestion, but it is to stop googling it. [laughs] Sorry, I had to say it like that, because she's talking about confusing info on the net. Yes, you can google this question, or look on the net, or look everywhere and find everything but opposite of everything else, literally. Someone will say, "The best thing to break your fast with is a smoothie." Someone else will say, "Never break your fast with a smoothie or you must have this combination of fat and protein, or never include carbs when you--." There's so much conflicting information out there that I would stop looking at that. I'm going to tell you, there's only one source that you can trust in the entire world about what you should break your fast with. Do you know what I'm going to say, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: It's you.

Gin Stephens: Yep, it's your body. Your body will tell you. That's it. You'll know what works for you and what doesn't. For example, for me, I've just said, some people say, "Open your window with a smoothie." That would make me feel terrible if I had a smoothie to open my window. But for some people, they feel energized and amazing. It all depends on how your body responds to what you put into it and it's not going to be the same for each of us. So, you are your expert, you're your study of one. The only reason I know a smoothie doesn't work for me to open my window is because I've tried it. Someone, who thinks it works great for them, they've tried it, they feel great and energized. For me, it makes me have a crash. I can close my window with a smoothie and I'm fine, and I don't have a crash after having a more balanced meal in the middle. For me, this is Gin Stephens, what she needs. I need to have really a combination.

Like your grandmother said, "Well-balanced meal," I feel better when I have a "traditional well-balanced meal, or snack, or whatever." I need a mixture of carbs, and fat, and protein. If I have carbs by themselves, I don't feel good. If I have fat by itself, I don't feel good. I guess, I could probably eat protein by itself and I'd feel okay. It wouldn't make me satisfied, because I need carbs, and fat, and protein to be satisfied. There is no universal best. So, ignore anybody who tells you what it's supposed to be seriously. Now, real food is always going to be better. I will say that. Real food for the win, no matter what it is, your body knows what to do with real food. You're more likely to have a good experience if you're prioritizing real food.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. Yeah, in general, the actual food and what you're eating, like Gin just said do what works for you. For a lot of us with sensitive guts like me, that means eating the way that I best digest it. I can just tell and I just know. So, I wouldn't focus on the macronutrients or anything like that. There are some functional foods that people purposely open their fast with. You're vegetarian, so, bone broth wouldn't be a thing for you. But a lot of people find that having bone broth, for example, when they break their fast is really healing for their gut. That's an example of something a person might want to try. Although actually, this is perfect. Today's episode is not sponsored by Beauty & the Broth, but we do have a code for them, which is at melanieavalon.com/broth with the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. But Melissa, who runs that company, she just released a vegetarian version. So, that is perfect for you, Angelica. It's based on mushrooms. Anybody interested in that, definitely check that out.

But yeah, basically everything that Gin said, and as far as like meal suggestions, I don't know if you're saying in the context of IF or in the context of just meals, the answer to that is twofold. If it's in the context of IF, it's what we just said that it doesn't really matter, because it's you do you. If it's in the context of meals, that's just I don't really even have suggestions. There are many.

Gin Stephens: I bet she's coming across the people out there who are just so insistent that if you must open your window with a mixture of protein, and fat, and zero carbs. There are people who say things like that, like it's the law. I'd say ignore all of that. Ignore it. That doesn't mean that maybe you won't feel better eating that way but you're doing it, because you feel better and that's what you've tried not because this person made a video and said here's what to do.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, you know what I always open my window with?

Gin Stephens: I can't remember. You might've told me, but tell me again.

Melanie Avalon: Wine.

Gin Stephens: You open with wine? Your little tiny micro dose?

Melanie Avalon: I drink normal glasses now.

Gin Stephens: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: But not a lot. I probably drink less than a glass a night. But yeah, I have a very ritualistic one meal a day eating, wind down, work pattern, every night, sauna. It's a whole thing. Lana Del Rey, it's a whole thing. In any case, Angelica's next question. She says, "I still have a lot of obsessive sugar cravings during my window. Any suggestions on how to suppress them." She means her eating window because she says, "I ate a whole bar of chocolate after my fast yesterday."

Gin Stephens: Here's the thing about sugar. You just have to decide. Actually, I want to back up a little bit. It is not "bad or wrong" to have cravings for sweet things. That is very natural. Especially, you just started, you're in your first week. In your first week, your body is not well fueled during the fast. You open your window and your body is searching for quick fuel, sugar is going to give you that. So that might be a function of your brain saying, "I need some quick fuel because you're not well fueled during the fast, because you're not fat adapted." So, keep that in mind. You may find that gets better as you become fat adapted. However, even once you're fat adapted, it is normal part of the human condition to crave sweetness, and to like it and that is not bad, or wrong, or a sign that you're weak. I'm not in the mindset of you must suppress cravings for sweetness because they're natural. But what you fill them with can make a difference. It just depends on you and how you react. For example, for me I bought two bars of really high-quality chocolate about, I don't know over a month ago. You know that Bronner's, Melanie? Bronner's soap?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: They now make chocolate. Maybe, they've always made chocolate, I don't know. They make chocolate.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, that's funny. Because I feel like that's like me. Like my product expansion, it's going to just be such a random thing.

Gin Stephens: That'll be chocolate, but the ingredients are super clean, it's a really high-quality chocolate, and I love that company. They've been around forever. I bought two regular sized bars, one was filled with a hazelnut butter or something and one was filled with an almond butter. I just eat a little tiny piece of it, and that is all I need, and it's been over a month, and I forgot it was there for a while. [laughs] Then I'm like, "Oh, I saw this chocolate." I was hiding it, because certain members of my family who live here would be able to eat the whole thing, and it'd be all gone, and I was like, "I want it to be there when I would like to have some." So, I put it behind the macaroni or something. I remembered it was back there and I'm just eating a little bit at a time. If I was the kind of person and no judgment here, because I'm like this with potato chips, that's why I can't buy potato chips. But if I were the kind of person who knew that I would eat the entire bar or two bars, maybe I shouldn't have that there. But I'm the kind of person that can forget I have it, and then just eat a little bit at the time and it's okay.

Now, so, you just have to know yourself. Again, like I said, it might get better as your body adjusts. But instead of whatever it is, it's your trigger, maybe, you can have dates. I always have organic dates in the fridge. Couple of those satisfies my sweet craving. I know Melanie loves pineapple. Pineapple can satisfy your sweet craving. Right now, it's blueberries. Whatever it might be, that satisfies your sweet craving. In berry season, I like to buy organic blackberries, and then put some heavy cream over them. That satisfies my sweet craving. But I'm not going to just eat so many that it makes me feel terrible. I can stop, my brain is happy. So, it's all about what works for you. But as I've mentioned, there are things I can't include like potato chips, because my brain doesn't have an off switch with that. You just need to know what are things that your brain doesn't have an off switch around that you really don't want to be consuming a lot of. It might be chocolate for you and sugar, refined sugary stuff, or it might be something salty like me with potato chips, you just have to figure out what it is. But that doesn't mean I shouldn’t ever eat salty things. It just that this is one thing that I have to probably not have a lot of. I hope that's helpful.

Melanie Avalon: It is. This is ironic. This is going to seem like I again undid something that I just said. It actually is not. I was saying earlier there's not a certain order to eating things and you have to find what works for you. That said, what works for you, some people do find that ordering of certain things does work for them. One of those things is that opening your meal with protein for example. A lot of people find that really, really helps with satiety. There's the whole protein leverage hypothesis theory that basically when we're eating, we're eating to fulfill our protein requirements. We're just going to be hungry until we get enough protein. Especially, if you're a vegetarian, you might be finding it a little bit more difficult to get protein, although I know vegetarian can include milk and dairy, right? Or dairy and eggs.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it can. Vegan is not having any of those products, but vegetarian, you can. Yep.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting to see how far things have come in such a short amount of time because I remember when I was writing What When Wine, because oh, that would be a good resource for you, Angelica. It has 50 recipes and they note if they're vegetarian, vegan, or all the specifics like lacto, lacto-vegetarian, pescatarian, all these different things. But I remember when I was researching to write that, people knew all the differences, but it wasn't second knowledge. Now, I feel it's pretty common knowledge, the difference between vegetarian and vegan. This wasn't that long ago. This was 2017. I just remember looking up all the differences and it just wasn't as known as it is now. But prioritizing protein when you open your meal might be a way to help those sugar cravings. Also, I'm about to interview finally, next week, Dr. Rick Johnson, oh, my goodness, the amount of notes I have for this episode. But he's the one who really studies fructose, and they do a lot of studies on fructose and sucrose, and the refined forms versus Whole Food forms.

The issues that come along with refined sugar. Even though, he really believes the mechanism of action is the fructose and they're still fructose in naturally sweet things like fruit, they don't see the metabolic problems, when it's just coming from Whole Foods forms. The reason I'm tying that all back in is, cravings are often related to metabolic signaling, and hormones not working to your advantage. I think eating in a way that helps all of that work to your advantage, it can help quell those cravings. This is iterating what Gin just said. But if you can turn to-- I know she was talking about the chocolate bar as well. But if you can try starting with the protein and stuff to filling up that way and then turning to alternatives for those cravings, you might find that those cravings get easier and maybe even eventually go away. So, finding the fruit or the fruit that works for you might be helpful. Any other thoughts?

Gin Stephens: No. Just the same thing that you said about the sugar. If I opened my eating window with sugar, I would feel terrible. I would have a big blood sugar crash. It wouldn't feel good at all.

Melanie Avalon: I remember when I did the ZOE experiment, even though that's fat and sugar, but eating those muffins, I would eat the muffin and then starving, starving. You have to fast for four hours, miserable. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Whereas yesterday, I had a daily harvest bowl full of lentils and I don't know, I can't remember what was in the one I had yesterday, maybe brussels sprouts, and I was so satisfied.

Melanie Avalon: It's a big difference.

Gin Stephens: It really, really makes a difference. All right, she got more questions.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Her next question. She says, "My last question relates to my husband. He is a private chef, who works varied shifts. Sometimes, leaves the house at 8:30 to only come home after 10 PM. He has to taste all of the food he prepares. How do you go around that and try to fast? He is keen to join me on the IF train, but it seems impossible."

Gin Stephens: I am going to say that if he's eating, he's not fasting.

Melanie Avalon: We've had this question before and it's--

Gin Stephens: I know. It's one of those things-- I've talked to chefs before on Intermittent Fasting Stories and they structure their tasting within whatever their eating window is going to be. I understand that he has to work varied shifts, but he doesn't have to taste every minute. I've worked in restaurant kitchens before and I know for a fact that they're not back there tasting every dish that goes out of the kitchen. But I'm just talking about from a restaurant kitchen's perspective. I've never obviously worked as a private chef. But watching the people cooking in the kitchen, they're not constantly tasting every dish before they send it out of the kitchen. I understand that you have to taste frequently within the job, but he needs to figure out a way to structure his window, so that he's doing his tasting within his eating window.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I wish there was a better answer, but that is the answer.

Gin Stephens: If you're eating, you're not fasting. The tasting makes it hard. I felt I was getting a cold or something the other day. I was like, "I feel I'm getting a cold." My nose was a little tickly, like a sneeze was coming on. I've always used zinc to help me with fighting a cold or whatever, but I can't take it on an empty stomach. It makes me feel queasy. I was like, "What?" I wasn't ready to eat yet. I was like, "What do I have in the fridge that I could take the zinc with to coat my stomach so I don't get queasy. I was like, "Well, I've got some kefir or kefir, however you say it, but I think it's kefir. We've looked that up before. It's like a yogurt but unsweetened. This is an unsweetened whole milk version, no sweeteners, just the fermented whatever they do to it to make it into kefir. It's a probiotic yogurty kind of a drink. It's like, well, this is probably going to coat my stomach the best. So, I just had a tiny little bit with the zinc. Tiny bit. Barely even tasted it. So hungry.

I was like, "Well, I guess I'm opening my window now." I technically opened it with the kefir, but it's okay to open my window earlier I needed to take something. Then, I just opened it for real, I ate food. I finally ate food. So, I can't imagine long story short trying to taste food and then fasting. I just can't. I couldn't do it. And plus, you're eating and it gets the digestive process started, and just the taste of the food initiates the cephalic phase insulin response to the food because your body's like, "Oh, we're eating now. We're going to need some insulin, so it pumps some out" and that keeps your insulin high. It's not one of those things I feel would be easy.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I wish there's an answer but--

Gin Stephens: I know. Plus, you're really mega low-calorie diet if you're just tasting little amounts all the time.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. I wonder with the varied shifts, are they all dinner shifts, I wonder?

Gin Stephens: Well, he said he leaves the house at 8:30 and comes home at 10.

Melanie Avalon: Sometimes. I'm wondering if that's an example or if they're like, is he doing lunch? Does he do lunch stuff, too? If he's just doing dinner shifts, then I would just have the window be a fluctuating window. Fluctuating meaning it's just defined by whatever that night's event is. So, okay. Well, the rest of her email she says, "Again, appreciate you answering any of these and I'm sorry if you've already answered some of these in detail." Oh, she was on Episode 15. "So, many more to listen to. Sending warm wishes from London." London, have you been to London, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I've never been to Europe or anywhere over there. No, I haven't. [laughs] I've only traveled in the United States and then wherever cruises go out of Florida. I've traveled out of Tampa on a cruise, and I traveled out of the other side of Florida, and also Charleston on a cruise. I had been to Jamaica by plane. But you could also cruise there. So, really anywhere down there a cruise ship could go, I've been around in the islands in Mexico. But yeah, never been to Europe, never been to Asia, and never been to Australia.

Melanie Avalon: Would you like to go?

Gin Stephens: One day. I would really like to go to the British Isles, because so many of my roots are from there. A lot of family tree from Scotland, England. I would love to go. There's also a lot of people over there that I've met through my intermittent fasting groups that I would really like to meet.

Melanie Avalon: I know. You could have a meetup in all the different international cities. That'd be fun. I'll live vicariously through you. You can do that.

Gin Stephens: Well, have you been to Europe?

Melanie Avalon: A lot, actually.

Gin Stephens: Really? When did you go?

Melanie Avalon: All the time growing up. My family still goes, but we have family in Germany and we have an apartment there. Growing up, we would always go to Germany and then we would go to another country like London, Rome, Paris, see all the places, and then I went on school trip. So, my family still goes all the time. I tried to get me to go every single time. Someday. Traveling is just a lot.

Gin Stephens: Chad's never been, Will's never been, but Cal has. Cal and Kate, they did a whole and in summer of 2019, that's where they got engaged in Europe. They were in Venice. So, they've been all over the place. They love to travel.

Melanie Avalon: I am really grateful that I've been to have seen actual other cultures in person, I think as a nice understanding to the world. Not that you need that, but I think it's helpful.

Gin Stephens: Did I get what you're saying? Shall we go on to our next question?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: This is from Joseph, and the subject is: "Intermittent fasting and hypoglycemia." He says, "fantastic guidance and a possible cure for many problems. I have only been doing IF for a week and it's great to wake up without feeling pain. A question for your podcast. How should a non-diabetic with hypoglycemia best apply intermittent fasting. Thank you," Joe.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Joe. Thank you so much for your question. To start, so hypoglycemia for listeners who are not aware of the differences, hypoglycemia is low blood sugar, hyperglycemia would be high blood sugar. Joe is talking about low blood sugar. In general, a lot of people find after adapting to an intermittent fasting lifestyle that it can really help with blood sugar regulation issues. Especially, when people with hypoglycemia eating throughout the day, they can experience hypoglycemia and blood sugar swings, because going from meal to meal, their blood sugar might drop in between meals or they might have reactive hypoglycemia, where it drops actually after a meal. But it can be a roller coaster for sure. In the long-term, I think a lot of people see great benefits with managing their blood sugar and be it hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia with intermittent fasting. That said, when you first start, because you just started, he's been doing it for a week, although this is, oh, this is a really recent question, very recent, two days ago.

In the beginning, there is the potential for experiencing more intense hypoglycemia because you are fasting, and if your body's not fat adapted, and not used to that, your blood sugar might be going low. I guess, my first question is, your hypoglycemia now, Joe, I wonder how intense it is. Is it where you just-- you can feel yourself getting hypoglycemic and you eat, or is it something where you actually are doing a glucometer or even wearing a CGM? I doubt he's wearing a CGM. But how intense is it? Is it something where you've actually had fainting spells from it, because that would be a whole another level compared to somebody who just tends to get low blood sugar and get hangry as they say. I would use that approach when applying it to the intermittent fasting. Again, I'm not a doctor with any of this that I'm saying. But if it's something where you just have blood sugar swings, and it can be a little bit uncomfortable, again, I'm not a doctor, not a doctor, but it is possibly okay to experience those swings and get accustomed to intermittent fasting. If it gets too unbearable having something to eat and slowly working your way, because you could work your way to a smaller and smaller window if you need, so you could start with a longer window and slowly shorten it. But if it is something where it's more intense, I would recommend which you might already be doing by checking your blood sugar with a glucometer or even getting--

You know what, getting a CGM would actually, probably be a fantastic solution for this. Because they last for around two weeks. You could wear it when you're trying the IF, and be watching your blood sugar levels, and seeing if it's going too low, seeing how you're adapting, and also seeing the changes. If you do have a hypoglycemic moment, where you do need to address it, you eat something. Again, you could just slowly work on adjusting your window. I'll put a link in the show note to Levels. They provide access to CGMs for people who are not diabetic. If you go to levels.link/ifpodcast that will let you skip their waitlist that actually has around 150,000 people on it and get access to that. That link does let you skip the waitlist. For some reason, sometimes, people think that they still get put on the waitlist. But no, that link gets you direct access. I didn't even define what a CGM is. It is a continuous glucose monitor. It's going to monitor your blood sugar 24/7, actually via your interstitial fluid in your cells, not actually your blood sugar, but it gives you the blood sugar readings. So, those would be my suggestions. Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I agree with what you said early on and I wanted to highlight that again that we find that people who suffered with hypoglycemia in the past when eating a traditional approach where you get up and you eat breakfast, and have a snack, and all that, that gets you on that blood sugar roller coaster of ups and downs, and that is how I used to live my life. Even when I was a little girl, I would notice that I might would have a blood sugar crash if I ate certain things or had something sweet. I would say, I maybe really did suffer from hypoglycemic type feelings, if you feel shaky or you need to eat. But with intermittent fasting, I never ever, ever, ever, ever feel that way ever during the fast. [laughs] Did I say I never ever feel that way? Never, never, ever. When I actually had a CGM from Levels that I tried out, they sent me one to try and it was fascinating to see what my blood sugar did during the day.

Of course, I'm well adapted to fasting. I've been doing it for years. But after I would have my morning coffee, that causes your liver to dump out some glycogen. I would see my blood sugar go up a little bit, and then it would stay around a certain state for the morning, and then I would feel a little wave of hunger, and I would look and see what my blood sugar was doing. That was right when it was going down. It was just a little mild wave, "Huh, I could eat." But it wasn't shakiness or feeling like I was crashing. I just kept fasting, and then the hunger wave passed, and then my blood sugar stayed really, really steady right in the 70s. As long as I just kept fasting, my blood sugar stayed just right there in the 70s. It wasn't wildly fluctuating up and down, up and down or crashing, because it doesn't do that. It really responds to something coming in, whether you're having that cephalic phase insulin response, your body releases some insulin, that would cause your blood sugar to crash.

I feel if you're not fasting clean, you might have some hypoglycemia. Drink a diet soda, no sugar really comes in because it's artificial sweeteners. But your brain gets that, "Oh, some sweets coming in," releases the insulin, bam. Now, you're going to have that blood sugar crash. As long as you're fasting clean and you're adapted, you should really see that steady blood sugar instead of the big roller coaster frequent eating. Very much just repeated what Melanie said, but I wouldn't worry about it unless you feel shaky, and then you need to eat.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Nancy and the subject is: "IF." Nancy says, "I lost 30 pounds with keto and plateaued. I then found your book, Delay, Don't Deny and began IF. I started in March and to date." This is August when she's writing this. This is five months later. She says, "I have lost five pounds. I have lost inches most everywhere, but I still have too much tummy. From March at 146 to today at 141, I have been here for weeks. I have been doing one meal a day, which works well with my family, but do you think I need to do ADF to start losing again or something else? I do longer fasts in there, too. Thank you."

Gin Stephens: Now, this is going to be one of those situations, where it's really tricky for us to answer, because we don't know where your weight is as far as in a healthy weight. For example, you weigh 141 and 141 is just a number that could be at the low end of the healthy weight range for somebody at a certain height or it could be at the high end, you could be overweight at 141 depending on how tall you are. It's hard for me to say. It's possible that 141 could be your body's ideal weight and you just should weigh 141. Over time, you'll still see, maybe your tummy will very slowly change. My body changed really slowly over a couple of years. I changed two jean sizes over a year, but didn't lose a lot of scale weight, but my body really, really reconfigured. Thanks to body recomposition. The scale number doesn't always tell the story. It depends on really how much weight you need to lose to be healthy what my answer will be.

If 141 is a healthy weight for your body, then you don't need to change a thing and give your body time. If you need to lose fat on your tummy, then you'll probably see the shape will change, but you still might weigh 141, but you'll have some body reconfiguration, the body recomposition. However, if 141 is still in the overweight range for your body, and you're stuck there for weeks, and you need to think about, "Okay, I probably do need to shake something up." Now, if your body is still changing, take photos, use your honesty pants to see if your body is changing. Again, body recomposition can happen even if the scale isn't changing. But if really your body is not changing at all and you need to lose weight to be at a healthy weight, then you're going to just shake something up, okay? It could be the length of your window, the timing of your window, what you're eating in your window.

For example, you said that you're doing one meal a day, that could look like so many different things. For me, I have a snack and a meal within a window of about five hours perhaps, I could certainly shift that around a lot. When you say one meal a day, you talking about strict 23:1 for example. If you are doing a very strict form like a 23:1, then it's very likely that your body has adapted to that, and so, I would do some shaking up of things. If you've got Fast. Feast. Repeat., I would read the "Tweak. It. Til. It's Easy" chapter and see all the ways you might want to change it up. You don't have to go full on ADF unless you want to. You mentioned that you do some longer fasts in there, too. I'm not sure what you meant by that. So, maybe you're already doing a 36 hour fast here and there. Maybe a meal-less Monday, and then make sure you're having an up-day following that.

That really is the key is making sure that you have more of a rhythm that it's not always the same. Like up and then a down, and then up and then a down instead of just everything being the same, the same, the same, the same, the same. Have a little something in there that shakes it up. That would be my advice. As I said, it depends on really what 141 means to your body. Y'all, when you're writing in a question for us, it would really, really help to have just a few more details to know, because 141, if you're 5'10" is really different than if you're 4'10", for example.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I thought that was a great answer as per usual. Especially, since she lost inches, it sounds she definitely is experiencing body recomposition. So, that is great. The only thing I'll add on and this is what Gin just said, but I'll elaborate on it a little bit. As far as, she was talking about how if you're not seeing results with everything and it is time to make tweaks, a lot of people want to automatically make the tweak be something around the fasting related, but there's a lot that can be done by looking at the food and what you're eating like a lot can be done there. The only reason I say it is when people don't even mention at all what they're eating, I think that is possibly a sign that there's a lot of potential in that world compared to somebody who already has their--

Not to say you don't have your food dialed in or not though even need to dial in our food. But some people will tell us exactly what they're eating and all of that. For those people, maybe the focus shouldn't be on the food as much, maybe it should be other things. But when people don't mention at all what they're eating, it says to me that the case might be that there's possibly a lot of potential if you haven't looked at that yet at all. So, I just wanted to note that. But again, ADF might be something that works for you. The good thing is there's just a lot of things that you could try.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and a lot of people love ADF. People, who try it and the rhythm works really well for them, they just absolutely love it. You never know until you try it. But there are people who that is their preferred way to do it. A lot of people think, "Oh, ADF, that sounds so hard. I'm not going to like it. I'm going to force myself to do it because it's the only way I can lose weight." What if you try it and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I love this." You just never know. Try it with a curiosity instead of dread, if you want to try it. If you don't like it, you don't have to do it. But you might love it. Surprise yourself and see. But it isn't right for everybody. I eat every day.

Melanie Avalon: It does not work for me, but it works really, really well for some people.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I just really enjoy eating every day. Sometimes, I eat for reasons other than the fact that I'm hungry. [laughs] We just--

Melanie Avalon: For shame.

Gin Stephens: I know. I said that in a sarcastic tone, because there's a bit of a thought, a train of thought that if you're craving stuff or you're eating for reasons that are not just-- if you're eating for enjoyment or if you're eating because you're not hungry, that it's wrong or bad. But it's not. Food is one of the greatest pleasures of the world of living, of being alive. I enjoy eating every day. But if someone enjoys fasting, and then the next day, they have an up-day, and they love the up-day, and they love the fast, that is the right thing to do. This is all about what feels good to you and sustainable and you can switch it up. There's a lot to be said for switching it up, keeping the body guessing.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Do we have time for one more?

Gin Stephens: Sure. The one that we have next is one we could definitely get to. All right, so, we have a question from Janet. Janet says, "I wanted to try this fasting to lower my blood sugar. I was diagnosed with diabetes about seven years ago. It has gotten worse, although I'm not on insulin, but I take 2000 metformin daily." I'm not sure 2000. What is that? Anyway, her dose is 2000. Probably, people who take metformin would know what that means. She says, "I also have high cholesterol, which I think is from the diabetes. It runs in my family. I work out every day, I am not overweight. I was paleo for six months and it still didn't lower my A1c. Could the fasting work for me?"

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I told you this was a quick one.

Melanie Avalon: There is a ton of literature on fasting and its effects on blood sugar regulation and A1c. For listeners, A1c refers to glycated hemoglobin. It's a longer-term measure of your average blood sugar levels, because basically, based on whatever your blood sugar levels are consistently affects the amount of glycation on your red blood cells. Glycation is a problematic process that happens with sugar. Like I said, there's just so much literature. It's almost overwhelming how much literature there is on fasting for helping blood sugars, A1c, and metabolic health. I don't really have much more to say, but we can put a link in the show notes to some studies.

Gin Stephens: The answer is yes. It absolutely could work for you. I feel fasting is the most powerful thing you can do to lower your A1c, lower your insulin resistance, all of that. I think it's the most powerful tool in our toolbox. Even more powerful than the what, although, the what does matter. But you see that Janet, when you did paleo for six months without fasting, that was not enough to lower your A1c, but if you eat in a style that includes healthy whole foods and incorporate intermittent fasting, that's like magic.

Melanie Avalon: I just thought of a random fun fact I wanted to share that relates to an earlier question. Can I share it really quickly?

Gin Stephens: I love random fun facts.

Melanie Avalon: I should probably find the exact numbers, but I'm sure you know this, Gin. But I'm prepping to interview Dom D'Agostino, who is the ketone researcher guy. There have been really fascinating studies. This goes back to the question on hypoglycemia. I'm not advocating this, but people on really intense ketogenic diets, they did studies way back in the day that I think would have been stopped now with these findings, but back then they didn't, this was decades ago. The blood sugar levels, the level of hypoglycemia that people reached in some of these studies, where they were doing a long-term ketogenic approach was shocking. They shouldn't even have been alive, but they were fine. But just because they were fueling on ketones, which was just a random fun fact. I wonder if I have the number, but that is not going to be the case probably with people. Now, I'm not saying that shockingly, low blood sugar is okay. This would be at a clinically controlled, really intense ketogenic therapeutic diet study. But the point of it is that there's a lot more going on then, I think, what we often-- like, the basic facts we think of when we think of blood sugar, but there's a lot more with ketones, and fasting, and all of that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's true. There's a lot. A lot going on in the body that so much of what we think about, what we've been told, for example, is not always accurate. The first time I read The Obesity Code that really just blew my mind. So many of the things that I was like, "What?" The Diabetes Code. If I were if you, Gin, I would read The Diabetes Code.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. That's a great suggestion.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Jason Fung, The Diabetes Code. Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: All righty. This has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email at questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode253. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. Then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon and Gin is @ginstephens. So, I think that is everything. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Feb 13

Episode 252: Longevity, NAD+, Keto & Carnivore, Weight Gain, Essential Oils, Coffee, Soft Drinks, Glucose Spikes, Fructose, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Gin Stephens: How To Reduce Your Toxic Load (Without Going Bananas)

Welcome to Episode 252 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

AvalonX Serrapeptase: Get Melanie’s Serrapeptase Supplement: A Proteolytic Enzyme Which May Help Clear Sinuses And Brain Fog, Reduce Allergies, Support A Healthy Inflammatory State, Enhance Wound Healing, Break Down Fatty Deposits And Amyloid Plaque, Supercharge Your Fast, And More! AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Order At Avalonx.us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At melanieavalon.com/avalonx!

LEVELS: Learn How Your Fasting, Food, And Exercise Are Affecting Your Blood Sugar Levels 24/7, By Wearing A Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM)! The Levels App Lets You Log Meals And Activities, And Interprets The Data For How They Affect Your Metabolic Health. Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At levels.link/ifpodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE!!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At MelanieAvalon.com/beautycounter, And Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SERRAPEPTASE: Order At avalonx.us, And Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At Melanieavalon.Com/Avalonx!

Listener Q&A: Quincy - Fasting question - Getting fatter !!!

Listener Q&A: Sharon - Essential Oils

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #25 - Eric Zielinski

Listener Q&A: Ashley - 2-year backslide

LEVELS: Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At levels.link/ifpodcast!

Listener Q&A: Scott - Blood Glucose Spikes

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 252 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life. Yes, for life. Gin and I are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. As you guys know, it can be hard to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. ButcherBox is the solution. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, nitrate-free, sugar-free bacon, heritage-breed hotdogs, and wild-caught seafood all directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community that is focused on doing what's better for all parties. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying better nourishing meals together. They go to great lengths to assure the highest quality, so you can find actual 100% grass-fed grass-finished beef. If you've seen the Netflix documentary, Seaspiracy, you might be aware of fish fraud and problems in the seafood industry. ButcherBox maintains very, very high standards for that and the whole process is so easy. They deliver all of this directly to your door. Once you sign up, you choose your box and your delivery frequency. They offer five boxes. Four curated box options as well as the popular custom box. With that one, you can get exactly what you and your family love. They ship your order frozen at the peak freshness, and packed in a 100% recyclable box, and the shipping is always free.

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Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 252 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stevens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am doing great, although I'm freezing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, is it wonderful?

Gin Stephens: No, not wonderful. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love the cold. I finally got back to cryotherapy after not going for about two or three weeks with COVID. So, I love cold.

Gin Stephens: Are you feeling fully recovered?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, pretty much.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: It's wonderful. I do have an exciting announcement to make.

Gin Stephens: Well, I can't wait to hear an exciting announcement. What is that?

Melanie Avalon: I think I can officially announce the next supplement that we're going to be making.

Gin Stephens: Very cool. I already know what it is but announce it.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, you don't.

Gin Stephens: You changed it? Well, okay.

Melanie Avalon: It was going to be one thing, but due to sourcing of materials, because I'm very, very stringent in the ingredients that we're using and so for the other supplement, we really wanted it to be an organic version and its craziness in the world with sourcing of materials. We had to push back that timeline. But there's another one we can do before then that is also something that I take every single day of my life. So, I'm very excited. And I'm very excited because I just rebooked actually two guests. I'm really excited. I'm just always excited.

Gin Stephens: That's a good way to go through life, excited.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was having a moment with my business partner this week and he made a joke because something really great had happened. He was like, "Merry Christmas." I was like, "I really feel like every day is Christmas." I really do feel like that sort of. But in any case, I rebooked David Perlmutter and Dr. Steven Gundry, which is very exciting. But do you know what Dr. Gundry's new book is?

Gin Stephens: I actually don't know. What's his new book?

Melanie Avalon: It's called Unlocking the Keto Code: The Revolutionary New Science of Keto That Offers More Benefits Without Deprivation. It comes out March 8th. That's been a fun time. I almost sent you a screenshot, because I have a galley copy of it. His whole thesis is that we've got ketones all wrong, all wrong. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: His basic thesis is that their benefit is not that they are a super fuel, that they actually make our bodies waste fuel. Their main benefit is not being a fuel, but rather it's their signaling effects on our mitochondria. It's been a really fun read. But I was excited because last night, I was reading it and he started talking about NAD. This all relates, NAD and how important it is. I talked about NAD on the show before. NAD is not a supplement, you cannot-- Well, you can do NAD like blood IV, but that's not what I'm talking about. NAD, he makes a really nice analogy. All of our cells in our body have mitochondria and that is the powerhouse of the cell. It's responsible for ourselves generating energy, so it's just really important within the mitochondria, if you think of electrons, which are involved-- This is the analogy that he made. If you think of electrons that are involved in energy, it's like a baseball and a baseball game being thrown around. NAD is like the, I think he called it a second baseman. It's one of the players, who's responsible for moving around the electrons. It's super important for basically everything you do. Levels go down as we age and it's often thought to be one of the contributing factors to aging, our levels going down. Also, disease, and illness, and stress can all deplete it. There are two supplements that you can take to boost it, and this is actually one of the things we've been debating between. There's something called NR and then there's something called NMN. They're both precursors. I've taken both and I've done a lot of research, and I feel really good about NMN. That's what David Sinclair personally takes and recommends. That's what my friend, James Clement, who wrote the book-- Sorry, who wrote The Switch takes and recommends and he actually has a lab and he's often testing NAD levels and supplements for NAD. His lab is about studying longevity.

I've actually had Chris Shade from Quicksilver Scientific on my show and we talked-- because they have NMN supplement. If you want to learn all about the signs of NAD, my interview with him is really helpful. It's at melanieavalon.com/nad. All of that to say, I am making an NMN. I'm so excited. We've been sourcing trying to find the most pure version on the market. The one we found they're actually ordering it this week, because it has all the criteria, like, non-GMO, and pure like kosher, and 98 point something percent purity. It's very exciting. I'm very excited because this week the way it works with the supplement making industry is you find what I'm all learning about. You know what you want to make, and then you have to find the sources of the ingredients, which thankfully, I don't have to actually find those companies because I'm working with MD Logic. My business partner, Scott, who's mostly in charge of this. He finds the sources and finally we order them and then they do inhouse testing to make sure it's all what they say it is. So, that's the process that we're at right now. If it tests according to what they say then we will probably have it in, I don't want to put a date but sooner rather than later.

Gin Stephens: Well, very cool.

Melanie Avalon: This is the supplement that David Sinclair in his book, Lifespan, which is my favorite health and longevity book. He talks about it, how they were doing studies on NMN in his lab and really finding the benefits of it. Then he tells the story in his book about how his student and I might have shared the story on the podcast before, but one of the moments he had was his student had got his mom on NMN, and then the student came to him one day and said that he needed to talk to him about something and was really nervous and David didn't know what he was going to say. Then he said that his mom that basically her menstrual cycle had come back, like, she was in menopause. But she started on NMN and her menstrual cycle had come back, which is crazy.

Gin Stephens: That's not what I'm looking for.

Melanie Avalon: I know but just as far as the implications of the anti-aging. Basically, in a way, almost reversing aging. Super valuable supplement. Oh, it's also the supplement that-- I'm sorry, it's so long, almost done. It's also a supplement that when I had surgery probably a year ago, I was really wrecked from that. I was just laying on the couch and I was like, "What can I do?" Because I couldn't do my sauna. I couldn't do cryotherapy, I wasn't supposed to lift anything heavier than an iPad, it was just really miserable, and I was really lethargic, and I started high dosing NMN, immediately started feeling better. I remember I asked James, I was like, "Is it possible that it's actually making me feel that much better?" He's like, "Yeah." It's really great supplement. To get more information on my email list where we will be releasing information, that is melanieavalon.com/avalonx, A-V-A-L-O-N-X. Then to actually purchase that or the serrapeptase, which was my first supplement that's at avalonx.us. I'm really sorry, I'm just so excited. What are your thoughts? What's new with you?

Gin Stephens: Well, nothing. I'm just rolling along. [laughs] January, we're at the end of January. By the time this comes out, of course, it'll be February. But January was just a blur, new book, lots of podcast appearances. They're starting to wind down, which is good because I had so many things going on. But I've got a little bit of a busy beginning of the week, but then I can take a little breather. I'm going to the beach with a friend next week. I'll be there for five nights. I'm so excited. My friend will be there for three nights, but I'll be there for two nights by myself. One night ahead of her getting there, then she'll be there for three nights, then I'll stay one more night.

Melanie Avalon: What has been your favorite podcast interview?

Gin Stephens: Well, it's really hard to say. I enjoy all of them.

Melanie Avalon: What has been one you really enjoyed?

Gin Stephens: Well, I really enjoyed Abel James. He was great.

Melanie Avalon: He's so nice. I know we say this every time, but--

Gin Stephens: I think the reason I really enjoyed his is because it was the first one, I had done on Clean(ish) ever, the first one. No one had read it except for my editor and the people like, the proofreaders, and the lawyer had read it. No one in the health world had read it, that isn't someone who really knows a lot about me. I was nervous, but he read it and really liked it. So, that was exciting. That's why that one I think sticks out.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that makes sense. Nice. Has it aired? Do you know?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it did air. It came out maybe a couple weeks ago.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, we can put a link to it in the show notes.

Gin Stephens: All righty. But yeah, other than that, just rolling along, enjoying everything I'm doing.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Merry Christmas.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] Happy New Year. By the time this comes out, we will be on the other side of Groundhog Day. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, what day's Groundhog Day, again?

Gin Stephens: It's February 2nd. It's always February 2nd.

Melanie Avalon: I feel we've had this conversation maybe every year. So, what is it again, if he sees his shadow?

Gin Stephens: It scares him, and he hides, and we have more winter.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, thank you for telling me that. I'm going to remember now going forward. That makes sense. I vote that he sees his shadow.

Gin Stephens: No, I'm ready for spring. I have this fabulous screened porch that's been waiting for me that we finished in late October. So, I need warm weather so I can go outside.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I need cold.

Gin Stephens: Well, you can turn on your air conditioner and stay inside.

Melanie Avalon: You could turn on your heater and stay inside.

Gin Stephens: But I want to go outside. I want to be out in the yard.

Melanie Avalon: I want to go outside, too. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: Go to your cryotherapy, Melanie, and let me be warm outside in the nature.

Melanie Avalon: I literally still wear my halter dress all winter.

Gin Stephens: That's so funny. I have my uggs on every day.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get 20% off my serrapeptase. This ends today for Valentine's Day. Friends, I am thrilled to announce that my serrapeptase supplement is now available. Most of you probably know about serrapeptase. We've been talking about it on this show since the very beginning. It just so happened to be the one supplement that both of us were taking. I'm obsessed with it, and take it every single day of my life, and that's why I knew it had to be my first supplement in my supplement line. I've been so thrilled hearing all of your responses, and thoughts, and testimonials trying my serrapeptase. It makes my life hearing how it's helping you and I'm so excited for more people to try it. Once I started doing the research on formulating my own serrapeptase, I've realized all of the ones on the market I actually don't want to be putting in my body. That's why I'm thrilled with my AvalonX Serrapeptase. It is so pure, so effective, free of toxic fillers, free of all common allergens like wheat, gluten, dairy, nuts, shellfish, yeast, soy, even rice, which is very, very common in a lot of supplements. It's tested multiple times for purity, potency, and that the enzyme is effective, and it's tested to be free of heavy metals and mold. You guys know that is so, so important to me. It's vegan and comes in a glass bottle to prevent the leaching of plastics into our bodies and our environment.

Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm. When you take it in the fasted state, it goes into your bloodstream and breaks down problematic proteins. It can address so many things, where your body is creating inflammation or reacting to proteins. This includes alleviating allergies, clearing your sinuses, reducing brain fog. It's been shown in clinical studies to break down fibroids, reduce fatty deposits and cholesterol, and even break down amyloid plaque. It may help reduce pain, and address wound healing, and so much more. It's incredible. I take it every single morning, and it clears my brain, clears my sinuses, and really it just makes me feel amazing. I'm so honored to partner with MD Logic to make it. My partner Scott there really went above and beyond to help make a formulation that meets all of my high standards. They even had to come up with an entire new production process to make ours. You can get it at avalonx.us, A-V-A-L-O-N-X dot U-S. Our Valentine's Day Sale is ending today. Yes, today. It is 20% off, that's on the site, get it now, stock up, now is the time. If you want to learn about all of my future supplements, because now honestly, with everything that I found, I just want to make my own version of everything I'm currently taking. Get on my email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/avalonx. Again, you can get my serrapeptase including the Valentine's Day sale today for 20% off at avalonx.us. And I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so, to start things off, we have a question from Quincy and the subject is: "Fasting question getting fatter!!!". Quincy says, "Hello, Gin. Enjoying the book and I've gotten my way through 28 days only to realize I was botching up the schedule. I'm two weeks in to the proper schedule."

Gin Stephens: Can I pop something in real quick?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: The only way you can mess up is to not fast clean really in my opinion. The schedules that are in the 28-day FAST Start as far as like, easing your way in or ripping off the Band-Aid. Those are just suggestions. So, there is no what I would call the proper schedule as long as you're fasting clean. That's really all I want to say. It's not regimented. There's not a right way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: How would people think that they botched it?

Gin Stephens: I don't know what he means by botching up the schedule.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe he just wasn't fasting.

Gin Stephens: Maybe or maybe he wasn't fasting clean. That is likely. So, I don't know. Anyway, we'll just have to not know exactly for sure, but I just want to clarify. There's no proper schedule unless you're not fasting clean. That's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Okay. Perfect. Or, if you're not fasting.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah. But if you're not fasting clean, I think you're not really fasting. [laughs] Anyway, so, back to the question.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Quincy says, "I'm convinced I'm getting chunkier. To qualify, I can feast like no other. Quick history, 2014-keto, 2018-carnivore, 2019-carnivore, keto." I'm just reflecting because if he was doing carnivore in 2018, I don't think you can do carnivore and not be keto. So, he was probably carnivore keto 2018 and 2019.

Gin Stephens: Or maybe he was just not adding fat and now he's focused on adding more fat, do you think? Maybe he was lean protein carnivore and then he was more fatty carnivore? Is that possible?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, maybe. You'd be keto either way.

Gin Stephens: Well, yes. But I don't really know the lingo in the carnivore community. Maybe he alternates between carnivore and keto?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's possible.

Gin Stephens: That might be it. Maybe he was strict keto, then he was strict carnivore, and now, he alternates between carnivore and keto, I don't know. Good question, though.

Melanie Avalon: All right. He says, "Present, still carnivore, keto." He's been effectively low carb since 2014. All sorts of fasting during those years, seven days, five days, 48, 36, 24, one meal a day, did one meal a day 2019 to 2020 pretty consistently. That being said, "I can eat 30 ounces of meat or more in one sitting. When you say, feast, I can." I just want to pop in there, Quincy. I eat 30 ounces of meat.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I would to die if I ate 30 ounces of meat. Oh. [laughs] We went out to eat, something happened and my box was delayed. So, we didn't have a meal. I was counting on it to come. So, we had to go to eat, we had gift cards, that was fine. But I had a five-ounce filet mignon and I was stuffed. I only got the small one. I'll have the petite filet. Well, I wasn't starving because I had potatoes, and salad, and rolls. If I tried to eat 12 ounces of meat it would be too much meat for my stomach.

Melanie Avalon: You remember when I went in the snow to get the scallops?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: They still had a few more scallops at that Costco an hour away. I went again yesterday an hour to get scallops and cucumbers, and I posted it on my story, and I got so many comments. I thought I was going to comment about the scallops because about 13 bags, but everybody was commenting about all the cucumbers in the picture. When people were like, "How do you eat all those?"

Gin Stephens: How many do you eat at a time?

Melanie Avalon: Every night? Probably, it's the long English cucumbers, the really long ones. I probably eat--

Gin Stephens: Like the long skinny ones, the real skinny ones?

Melanie Avalon: No, the normal ones. They're thick and long. I probably eat 10.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] All right. How many scallops would you have alongside that or should I say, how many bags of scallops? I don’t know. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Well, yeah. Well, that's why I was thinking because when I was reading his question 30 ounces, so, I normally eat almost a whole bag and it's a two-pound bag. That's 32 ounces of scallops. Then I also eat chicken or some fish. I supplement with more meat probably, another six ounces. So, I'm probably eating-- I really need 35 ounces of meat every night-

Gin Stephens: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: -and 10 cucumbers. Then I eat probably two pounds of fruit.

Gin Stephens: Wow. I can't even imagine. That's a lot of food.

Melanie Avalon: It's wonderful.

Gin Stephens: I do not eat that much food. [laughs] I don't know where you're putting it, Melanie. I don't know how it’s getting inside your body.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, well, yeah, that's true. But it's over four hours. The thing I love about it though is when you don't-- Well, I don’t want to make blanket statements, but I found for me and I found for people who have-- Well, most people don't go this crazy, but if you don't add, if you really just stay whole foods like don't add, because I eat high protein lower fat diet, don’t add fat. You can really just eat as much as you want. I don't want to make a blanket statement, but it's very satiating. I don't feel I'm over eating at the same time even though it's massive volumes. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm actually glad I said all that because I got to tie it into Quincy's question.

Quincy says, "So, when you say feast, I can." Us both, you and me both Quincy. He says, "Generally my meals are red meat with eggs or bacon, coffee with heavy cream. I'm intent on following this through for several months because your version of this is from a scientific standpoint. I'm just concerned that by this point, I may be out kicking my coverage on feasting days and getting fatter. I'm in panic mode because pants and shirts are fitting more snug, I recall you saying one could plan on gaining weight during the first 28 days. I'm strength training and doing little cardio. There are other factors I'm sure." I appreciate the email access to us, I guess. So, he is a soon to be 44-year-old male. Thanks.

Gin Stephens: Here's what I'm questioning. It doesn't sound he changed his diet at all, but he's just-- He's also done a lot of fasting. I'm not really sure what's different. It might be like, let's say for example that he's just eating in a shorter window. Instead of eating spread out throughout the day, he's eating all of his food, but it was the similar kind of food as before. But in a shorter window, that might make your clothing feel they're fitting more snugly just because you've got more food inside your digestive system at a time. I'm picturing a snake that's eaten, I don't know, a little animal, and you can see it going down the-- Does that make sense? You know what I'm talking about? That little animal's bulging its way down to the digestive system.

Melanie Avalon: Or, when the snake eats the egg and it's like--

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It could just be that. If you're eating in a shorter period of time than you're used to, you might just feel like, "Oh, here's a whole lot of food inside my body because it's a shorter period of time." I don't know. The thing that makes me puzzled about why he would feel he's eating too much is, because it doesn't seem like his food has changed. What are you thinking, Melanie? I have a lot of questions here. A lot of questions, Quincy.

Melanie Avalon: The vibe I'm getting and you can let us know if this is correct, Quincy. It is confusing, because he's done fasting a lot, and he's done similar diet the whole time. But the vibe I'm getting is that now he's committing to this fasting schedule with the 28 days, and I think he's probably doing a shorter window because the thing that he's focusing on is how he is eating so much and he feels he's just feasting. I feel maybe he feels he's using it as excuse to just overindulge and go crazy consistently and he feels he's gaining weight from that.

Gin Stephens: He's overeating perhaps.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what I'm getting from him.

Gin Stephens: Okay. You can overeat and that's not what we would recommend it if weight loss, but I don't know that Quincy may not want to lose weight. It seems maybe he just wants to not gain weight, because he's strength training, he's doing cardio. I would just see if what Melanie said is right and you feel you're overdoing it, just scale back a little bit.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because he says that he's in panic mode and he feels he's gaining weight and he feels he's kicking his coverage on feasting days. It sounds like he feels even though he's fasting because he's feasting so much that he's not being protected by the fasting in a way. What I was going to suggest and this relates to everything I was saying before, if you do indeed want to stay carnivore, or keto, or whatever you are doing, which you've been doing it a long time, I have two thoughts here. One is the feasting that you're having and you feel you're overindulging presumably. Are you doing so because you would really feel you can't get full? What is that experience or is it more of a mindset of feeling you're just what's the word, more for pleasure rather than feeling you can't get satiated? Regardless, either way, if you do want to stay with these foods, I think if you just switch to a leaner version of the food choices that might work. Because right now, it sounds you're eating a fatty version of carnivore because bacon is very fatty, red meat, cream, eggs. You can still do carnivore and low carb, and it doesn't even have to be crazy fat free carnivore. It doesn't have to be chicken breasts and egg whites. It could just be like so for the red meat, it could be fillets and sirloin rather than if you're doing rib eyes.

Then, eggs you could keep or you could do a mix of egg whites and normal eggs, bacon, you could maybe nix the bacon or have less bacon, reduce the cream. I would try a lower fat approach to carnivore and keto and still allow yourself to feast. But this goes into what I was saying a second ago about, I think a lot of people if they are eating leaner versions of whole foods, it's harder to gain weight with that situation compared to a higher fat meal. I've talked about this before and I will say it again. I think one of the most important things to understand, because a lot of people think with keto, and carnivore, and low carb high fat, they think that doesn't release insulin. So, unlimited fat, because it's not going to get stored, because it doesn't release insulin. But the thing to understand here is, it does not release insulin, because it is so easily stored.

Gin Stephens: It doesn't require insulin to be stored.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is the paradigm shift. I say that just to express the fat is very easily stored. So, Quincy, I would suggest if you're happy with carnivore, if you're happy with keto, just try a lower fat approach to carnivore and keto. I think that might do it for you.

Gin Stephens: It would help me to know what actually has changed versus what he was doing before. Because what he was doing before, if he was eating the same exact things and now, all he's doing is eating it in a shorter window, I can't think of a way that it would actually make you gain more weight unless, like I said, it was just the weight of the food. That's the thing.

Melanie Avalon: Or, it could be that when he doesn't eat in a window that he just eats substantially less.

Gin Stephens: That's the thing. If he's shortened his eating time but greatly increased the amount, that would be interesting. That's what I don't know. Because honestly, the adjustment period, if someone's been keto, low carb since 2014, the adjustment period is to get you metabolically flexible. If you've been keto since 2014 and carnivore, you're already metabolically flexible. The adjustment period part about needing to get metabolically flexible wouldn't really apply. If the only thing that's changed is the puzzle. But if when and amount have both changed, that's important. Just think of all the variables or examine what you're doing, Quincy. Think about, what did I change? Whatever variable you change, just changing time, having shorter eating windows versus what you had before would not make you gain fat. But changing amount and time that's two variables, so the amount is likely the issue.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The reason I'm just emphasizing maybe trying that lower fat approach is I'm getting the sense that he sounds like me. He sounds like he likes to just eat a ton volume wise, I relate. That's why I think that approach might work for you.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, write back, Quincy, and let us know. Give us a follow up and tell us and of course by the time you hear this some time will have gone by, so, you can tell us what you might have changed over the time, that sort of thing. I would love to know.

Melanie Avalon: And also, do you want to comment on his coffee with cream? It could be in his eating window.

Gin Stephens: I think it's in his eating window because that's what he said. He said meals. Yeah. He said my meals are. That was in the meals section. So, yep. Cool. All right. We have a question from Sharon and the subject is: "Essential oils." She says, "Love your podcast. I await eagerly each week for a new podcast. Lost 30 pounds since starting last August. My question is, any research about using essential oils while in a fasted state? I love my essential oils, lemon, peppermint oil, and my water, etc. Just curious about your thoughts on this. Thank you."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sharon. Thank you so much for your question. I actually recently re-interviewed Eric Zielinski. He and his wife Sabrina are authors of The Healing Power of Essential Oils, and The Essential Oils Diet, and I brought him on for his new book, The Essential Oils Apothecary. It's super fun because I've talked about this on the show before, but they actually live near me. I've actually met them in person and had dinner which was super fun. But I just want to put them out there as a resource for anybody interested in essential oils, using them, people who are not too familiar might be a little bit casual about them, but they really are medicine in a way. They are super concentrated forms of plant compounds that can have massive beneficial effects on health. They're not just something to be taken lightly. As far as using them in the fast, in The Essential Oils Apothecary, they actually talk about all the different ways to make essential oils and how to use them, be it an inhaler, so, breathing it in, or topically, which would be a roll on or something, or internally, which would be what Sharon is talking about, but they also take them via pills sometimes. As far as using them during fasting, so, I do personally use peppermint essential oil and a breath spray, but I don't put essential oils in my water to drink. Gin, how would this line up with the clean fast?

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100% same thing. Peppermint is in the gray area in my diagram on the clean fast because some people can't use it. They put a little peppermint oil on their tongue, they're starving, they're shaky. Definitely, their body's like, "Foods coming in." For me. No. It doesn't bother my body at all. Maybe because I use peppermint Burt's Bees all day long and my body's like, "Oh, yeah. That's nothing." [laughs] I don’t know. [laughs] But definitely, I wouldn't put it in your water because that's a different sensory sensation that goes on and on and on. I'm no with any kind of water enhancers at all. Drink plain water, it doesn't need to be flavored. If you want to have flavored water, have it in your eating window apart from lemon or anything. But yes, I use a little bit of peppermint oil for breath when needed. Not a lot. I don't need it frequently mainly just at home. I don't use it around the house. But if I'm out and talking to people close, I might.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Actually, at my cryo place the other day and they were having a celebration for something. They had water and they had water with cucumber in it, and I hadn't had that spa type of water in a really, really long time, and I was like, "Oh, this will be fine. This won't affect my fast." I had some and I was like, "Oh, this makes me feel not so good." I think it definitely had an effect, an insulin release.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. I would 100% expected to just based on anything that I've ever experimented with ditto. Once you recognize the clean fast, you know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We have question from Ashley and the subject is: "two year backslide." Ashley says, "Hi, ladies. Thank you for everything. You're both amazing. I have a question about unexpected weight gain. I know, I know who doesn't right. I've been doing IF for two years with amazing weight loss and health success. I'm 5'5", starting weight was 140, and I reached my goal of 120 six months in. I was able to maintain for a long time but for several weeks my Shapa has been dark gray." For listeners, the Shapa scale is a scale that uses colors rather than numbers to keep track on your weight gain or weight loss. What are the colors, so dark gray means you're gaining?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, dark gray is gaining pretty quickly or a substantial amount. Light gray is slight weight gain. Green means maintaining, teal means you're losing slow trend, and blue is you're losing more quickly.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome.

Gin Stephens: If anyone wants to see more about it, go to ginstephens.com/shapa.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I was using Shapa, but then I've realized I prefer the numbers, which is interesting. I thought it was something that resonated with me but not as much.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I really liked the Shapa. I stopped using it just because my year subscription is over. I'm like, "All right, that was fun." [laughs] What I really enjoyed it, I learned you could game the system by looking at your Shapa age. I'd never looked at a weight number but my Shapa age would change. So, I always knew if my Shapa age was going up. [laughs] That was my weight went up. But because my age didn't have any negative connotation like a number right, the weight number, I didn't care. The lowest I got was I was 18 years old on my Shapa scale. Isn't that fun?

Melanie Avalon: How did you look at the age and not the color or what?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it'll just shows you. I looked at the color, I didn't look at the number. I looked at the color and the age every day.

Melanie Avalon: It does have a number?

Gin Stephens: Oh, you can. If you sync it with your Apple Help, you can look at the number. Oh yeah, so you can see a number. I never looked at the number but I just looked at the color and the Shapa age but I noticed it, I figured out. Some of my friends were using them at the same time. So, we were like, "Yeah, the age is really showing your fluctuations." When your age would go up, you're like, "Okay, I fluctuated upward." Even if your color didn't change, you could tell from your age what your fluctuations were doing. If your age started going down, you knew your color was going to start to go down. Anyway, I enjoyed being 18 on the Shapa scale. Thank you, Shapa.

Melanie Avalon: Back to Ashley's question. She says, "I finally checked the number and I'm back to 135." Oh, okay. She just said that she checked the number. "I haven't changed anything. Seriously, I have OCD, the diagnosed kind, not the kind that just likes to clean a lot. I eat exactly the same foods every day. I break my fast with oatmeal or bananas, snack on some cheese, then have dinner with my family that usually includes some kind of pasta, meat, and veggies. I also have wine. I know my diet isn't amazing, but it literally hasn't changed. So, what do you think the deal is with the game? I am also experiencing other issues like getting hungry earlier. Although, I'm a teacher on holiday break, so that could be part of it, constipation." She says, "sorry if that's gross," but it's not gross, Ashley, "and fatigue." I feel bloated/puffy all the time and even my skin looks dull. I'm only 37. It seems too early for menopause. Should I be playing around with my eating window? I'm afraid of making a bad situation worse. Also, because I know Gin will ask, my honesty pants are too tight. I know that pesky scale is telling the truth. Thank you both. Your voices make my Chicago commute bearable. I love Melanie's inquisitiveness for all the things. I find strange being cold on purpose, for example." Oh. "And Gin's expertise delivered through that sassy southern accent," Ashley.

Gin Stephens: All right, Ashley. Gosh, I know that's got to be frustrating. The fact that your window hasn't changed and your diet hasn't changed, but other things have changed, make me think something is going on behind the scenes. Constipation, fatigue, bloating and puffiness, your skin looks dull, I wonder if you were sick at some point. If you can pinpoint any medical change in your body that was different than the normal, if you've changed your birth control, or had a medical procedure, or anything that's different, that could be causing increased inflammation in your body. Because that's what it sounds like. If you haven't changed your eating window, you've been doing IF for two years, and you eat exactly the same thing, and you had reached homeostasis, then something has changed and made your body be more inflamed in some way. It could be your thyroid, it could be autoimmune, I don't know. I could start naming things that would cause your body. But something has changed and it's just really hard to know what that is. You could have some vitamin deficiency. The weight gain alone is one sign, but the fact that you're having bloating, puffiness, that all sounds like inflammation. What do you think, Melanie? Oh, the fatigue? Yeah. Thyroid is something that really pops up as an idea for me. I don't know. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Since her OCD is diagnosed, if she's done any medications related to that, that could be a huge factor. I agree and because her question was, "Should she be playing around with the eating window?" I would probably look at the foods, if you're going to play around with something. When people think that maybe they could be making different food choices that might benefit them better, that vibe usually syncs into the question.

Gin Stephens: The only part that's interesting to me, though, is that she hadn't changed her food. It's the same food that she ate when she went from 140 to 120. I don't know why she would go back to 135 with the same exact food.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, but regardless, I still think addressing it could possibly bring benefit. Especially, if it's something that if it is hormonal or something else, I just think it could be benefited by looking at food choices. If any of the food choices are creating inflammation or not working with your body, it's going to be hard to fast your way out of that. That's going to probably be a continued issue. Things like constipation can, I think, really be helped if you find the foods that work for you, especially me struggling with IBS. I know that the foods that I eat really affect that. So, that was just to answer the question about like, "Should I be playing around with my eating window?" I would probably look at the food choices first rather than the eating window. What do you think about her thoughts about afraid of making a bad situation worse, playing around with the eating window?

Gin Stephens: It just depends on what's the root cause here. I don't know how she's going to make a bad situation worse by playing with our eating window, but the only reason I would look to the eating window is, if you think you might have had window creep, because that does happen sometimes in maintenance and people don't realize it. She said, "I'm getting hungry earlier," so, now she's opening earlier, so now she's got window creep. She's like, "Everything's exactly the same," except when you really dig in, it isn't. Maybe you used to have a three-hour eating window and now it's more six. And also, opening earlier can lead to being hungrier because now you're used to having the longer window and you're not quite getting into ketosis as early, you're not having that same energy that you have because of that window creep. I would look really hard and if you have had a window creep, you'll be able to find it. If not-- Because it didn't happen to me when I started not going to school anymore. Because I used to open my eating window at home when I got home from work and it was 4:30. But now, I'm home all the time. Well, it's two, I think I'll open my window now because I can, if I want to. That's window creep.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, because I was looking back at the dates. She's doing IF for two years, and then she lost 20 pounds in six months and was maintaining, and it was only in a few weeks that she probably gained 15 pounds, but it aligns with her being on break.

Gin Stephens: And the holidays. The holidays also, a lot of people gain weight over the holidays. So, that could be it as well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that could be a huge thing. Your routine changing around, maybe not being as active, and then on top of that, I know she says she's eating the same things.

Gin Stephens: But if the answer is really your window is exactly the same and your diet hasn't changed at all, then I would dig in because fatigue, bloating, puffiness, constipation, all that shouldn't just come out of nowhere, but that would come along with window creep or eating more over the holidays. It really just depends. I would say, "Ashley, really think about it. Oh, I did have a little window creep or oh, I did eat a lot more because it was the holidays, and I was celebrating, and maybe I didn't think about that." Then all those symptoms would be explained by that.

Melanie Avalon: Or, did you change medications or start a medication?

Gin Stephens: Exactly or have an illness. I have a friend I've talked about her before, but it's just a striking example. She had food poisoning and it completely changed her gut for years. She started losing weight like crazy, lost so much. Everybody's probably like, "Oh, I wish I had that problem." You don't want the problem because she was like constant diarrhea, so very sick, and couldn't eat or tolerate any foods at all, was losing so much weight that she was skinnier than her 12-year-old son. It was not good. But because her gut microbiome was so disrupted from that food poisoning, she had to really build back her health. But that lets you know that there's so many factors, she could not eat enough food to not lose weight like crazy. That lets us know that it's not just always in our control. When things are going on behind the scenes, those things are powerful.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we answer one more question?

Gin Stephens: Yep. We have a question from Scott and the subject is: "Blood glucose spikes." Scott says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie. I just recently subscribed to your podcast and enjoy listening. Just to give you some background, I'm very new to IF. I've been practicing the one meal a day version for about two months, losing 20 pounds. I have about 25 more to go before I met my target weight, but still plan on staying on the one meal. I may start having beer, wine, and dessert with my meal. I walk lately about seven to 10 miles per day, five to seven miles per week." That is a lot of walking, Scott. [laughs] Oh yeah, maybe I wonder if it's his work. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I was wondering if it was concentrated or if it was during what he's doing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So Scott says, "I have normal blood sugars before I started the fasting regimen and currently they are in normal ranges. Now, to my question, I only drink water, black coffee, and calorie free unsweetened soda water during my fasting window. So, I'm also assuming that's unflavored as well, unflavored, unsweetened?

Melanie Avalon: Well, he talks about it in a little bit. It as essences in it.

Gin Stephens: Uh-oh. [laughs] Alert, Scott, alert. Okay, so, let's see. He said, "As an experiment, I wanted to track my glucose levels during my fasts. During the one 48-hour fast I did recently, what I've noticed is when I wake up as an example, I'll take my glucose level via finger prick and home testing meter and my glucose level goes up by 10 to 12 points a half hour after the coffee." Very normal, by the way, Scott because coffee makes our liver dump some glycogen, which makes our blood glucose go up still in the good range, though. "In the afternoon between all the tap water, I'll have a can of Perrier, calorie free soda water, strawberry or watermelon essences and the same thing will happen. I'll check my glucose level before and then a half hour later, it is up 10 to 12 points. On a different day, I drank only plain soda water and there was no spike in blood glucose. Am I hurting the gains of fasting with the 10-to-12-point glucose spikes or am I overthinking? I can easily switch to plain soda water." Yes, Scott, I would do that. Switch to plain soda water. But I'm not sure how I can give up coffee. You do not need to give up coffee. "Any insights you have would be greatly appreciated." Then he said, just for your benefit, these are his blood glucose levels. "Wake up 95, after black coffee 107, afternoon after a long walk 78, after Perrier flavored 89. Best regards, Scott."

Melanie Avalon: All right. Scott, thank you so much for your question. Are you overthinking? I think it's a yes and a no and I will tell you why. I don't think it's overthinking at all to monitor our biomarkers. I think it's super amazing that you are taking your blood sugar measurements and trying to figure out what's going on. So, I don't think that's overthinking. I think that's awesome. Where I do think you're overthinking is the conclusions that you might be drawing based on limited data. Limited data, which as well is not concerning. The numbers he's giving us, those are all good in my opinion. 107 is higher but after black coffee that's a really normal response. But waking up 95, after black coffee 107, 78 after your walk, even 89 as a "spike" and the 80s is typically considered very good blood sugar levels. Actually, what I would recommend though in getting more clarity with all of this, I think you're the type of person, Scott, that would really, really benefit from doing a trial with a CGM. If you haven't done one before, it is a sensor that you wear for around two weeks, and it will give you constant data about your blood sugar levels 24/7 during those two weeks and it updates to an app if you get it through a service that provides it and then that app will show you trends and show you how you are reacting to different things. So, today's episode is actually sponsored in part by Levels. I did not plan for this, I promise. Just really perfect.

They actually do provide access to CGMs because in the past, historically, CGMs required a prescription from a doctor, typically you needed to have diabetes. If you listen to the ad, wherever that ad is in this episode, you can check out the show notes, and there'll be more information about it. But the reason I think this will really benefit you, Scott, is because when you wear a CGM, you realize just how much our blood sugar levels do and can fluctuate, and you realize that just checking it at one moment is like a snapshot. It's like watching a movie scene and just seeing a screenshot of the movie. You don't know what's happening in that movie scene just seeing one screenshot. So, I think that could really, really benefit you. I know Gin has thoughts about soda water, but try CGM. I think you'll get more clarity. Personally, I'm not a doctor, but be concerned with those numbers.

Gin Stephens: Exactly. I will say, Scott, the clean fast is plain water, black coffee, plain tea, plain sparkling water. Avoid the flavored waters because of the cephalic phase insulin response. For example, you drink the strawberry Perrier, and your brain's like, "Ooh, strawberries are coming in." But you're not really having strawberries come in but your brain thinks they are. You kick out some insulin to deal with it. Now, we want to keep our insulin low during the fast because that's where the magic happens is in a low insulin state. We want to tap into our fat stores well and low insulin helps us to do that. Also, after reading, I'm really behind. I haven't read much more of why we get sick by Benjamin Bikman. We want to keep our insulin low and his premise is so much of what's wrong with our health now has to do with insulin resistance and having chronic high levels of insulin. If you think back, the 1970s, the 1950s, the 1920s, keep going back. People drank plain water. There were no water enhancers. We're pretty much living in a state of constant taste stimulation now. So, I think that is a big reason why. Honestly, if everyone in the world changed nothing except their beverages, I'm saying nobody needs to fast, nobody change your diet. The only thing we change in the world is that people only drink plain water, plain sparkling water, black coffee, black tea. I bet we'd see a huge health improvement with just that one change.

Melanie Avalon: To that point, I'm about to interview Dr. Rick Johnson for his book, and I've talked about it on the show before. But his new book is called Nature Wants Us to Be Fat and he's the one that studies fructose and high fructose corn syrup. He really makes the case that, especially beverages I know, we were talking about non-caloric beverages in this question. But the role of soft drinks in the obesity epidemic, I think is just so huge.

Gin Stephens: But I think the role in the flavored beverages to the zero calories, even the ones that are not sweetened, but the zero-calorie unsweetened just fruity ones, I think have a role, too. I really do.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, this was something interesting. Did you know that, well, these aren't normally in those drinks, but sorbitol, the non-caloric sweetener? It actually becomes fructose in our bodies.

Gin Stephens: That's interesting. I wouldn't think that they might not be in those. Who knows? All those different flavored things, especially the water enhancer drops, Lord knows what's in those.

Melanie Avalon: Agreed.

Gin Stephens: They could have sorbitol. I don't know. [laughs] I haven't ever bought any of those lately, obviously, since I've been fasting. I used to buy that kind of stuff. I never drank unflavored anything. I was living in a French Vanilla water enhancer stevia world honestly. I had huge abdominal obesity. My waist was so big, I couldn't touch my toenails, I mean, I could touch them. I couldn't paint my toenails. I could barely reach them. My belly was huge and I never had a big belly. Then, all of a sudden, there it was. Now, my waist measurement is not big.

Melanie Avalon: I've always been really fascinated by this. They did a poll on people, who had once been obese. I think the option was, would you be obese again, if you--? It was some huge amount of money and most of them said, no.

Gin Stephens: No, I wouldn't. Mm-mm.

Melanie Avalon: Because that experience was not worth returning to.

Gin Stephens: It didn't feel good. No. I would not trade the way I feel in my body for any amount of money.

Melanie Avalon: And to clarify, I'm not saying that all about a judgment on obesity. I'm talking about the experience of being an--

Gin Stephens: Oh, I've been obese. I've been there. It didn't feel good. I'm definitely not one to judge because I struggled. I feel most people who were like me, obese, don't feel our best in our bodies. We feel hopeless, and so we give up or well, I'm just going to embrace it, because I was at that point. I was like, "You know what? I'm just going to embrace it. This is who I am. [unintelligible [01:00:42] size, I'm going to feel good in my body. I'm not going to--." But I could tell myself that all day long, but I still did not feel good in my body. When I'm trying to walk up the Mayan ruins, I've told the story a million times, and I hit rock bottom on that trip, because I was so overly fed on that cruise, and I was just miserable, and got home and weighed 210 pounds, and I didn't feel good in my body. But today, I feel great in my body and it's not just because of the size of my jeans, I literally could run up the Mayan ruins and feel fantastic, and then run back down, and then-- My body does what I need it to do. I can get on the floor, I can get up, I can paint my toenails, I can clean my house, and I feel good doing it. So, that's the difference. It's not the, "Oh, there's shame with being overweight."

There's no shame. Anyone, who is overweight, you get rid of that shame. You're overweight because of our culture, our foods are different, ultra-processed foods. They're designed in a lab to be addictive. We've been told to eat six times a day, it is not your fault. You're not weak. We've been made to think, "Well, you're just overweight because you're weak and you're not good enough to lose the weight." That is not true, either. It's just having really faulty dietary advice. Being fed these ultra-processed foods, and our body responds the way, the way it responds and it's not our fault. We've tried so hard. I would bet anyone who's obese has probably tried harder than people like Chad, who never tried. He didn't have to. He hadn't had to struggle. He's just always been lean. So, anyway that's probably all I have to say on that.

Melanie Avalon: I agree and just to comment again and not to be on a soapbox, but I believe we should love ourselves at any size, but I think the healthy at any size can be problematic because then people might feel, if they want to change from that experience and try to lose the weight, they might feel like they're not, then they're not accepting themselves. But I think there should be agency in making changes while still loving yourself at any size. I found the link for Scott. If you would like to get a CGM, so, Scott, you can go to levels.link/ifpodcast. That will let you skip their waitlist of 150,000 people and get it today. Sometimes, people tell me that they're still on the waitlist, and if that happened that's probably because you somehow got on their main site and didn't go through our link because our link will let you skip the waitlist. So, levels.link/ifpodcast. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode252, and then you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens. Yeah, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that's it. Looking forward to go into the freezing beach. That's it. That's all I've got going on.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I hope the cold comes back. I hope it stays forever.

Gin Stephens: No, it will not stay forever because we have seasons.

Melanie Avalon: I need to move to somewhere where it does stay cold forever.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's possible.

Melanie Avalon: Forever Winters, Taylor Swift says. All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Feb 06

Episode 251: EMF, Diabetes, Melatonin, Circadian Food Timing, Organic Cheese, Raw Milk, Insect Protein, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #122 - R Blank

Welcome to Episode 251 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #85 - Dr. Joseph Mercola

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Listener Q&A: Christie - Is Diabetes a Circadian Disorder?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #112 - Dr. John Lieurance

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Listener Q&A: MaryEllen - Organic Cheese?

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 251 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. Low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to team USA Weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more.

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Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome, this is episode number 251 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I am fantastic. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. Can I tell you two nice things that happened that I can speak to just how far my journey has come in the podcasting world?

Gin Stephens: 100% yes, and then in a minute, I have to talk about snow because I promised I would.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, let's talk about snow first.

Gin Stephens: That's I promised that would be the first thing I talked about this week.

Melanie Avalon: This snow that did not happen.

Gin Stephens: It happened.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it happened for you?

Gin Stephens: Yes. We had an inch of snow.

Melanie Avalon: What?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. We had snow on Friday night.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say, what happened to the snow because it didn't snow here.

Gin Stephens: Okay, we had an inch of snow. It was so much fun. I was watching the radar and it was actually hilarious because you know how I talked about the fall line, and where we are in our geography. All day long, you could see that line. Even when it started to be freezing rain and snow north of us, there's that line. You're like, "There's the fall line. There it is." It stayed like rain, rain, rain. I was looking-- Myrtle Beach was under a winter storm watch. At one point, I looked at the beach and it was snowing at my beach house, but raining here.

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know. But around about 10 o'clock, when they said, Will and I stayed up as to watch it. Right around 10, a little before that it started you could hear that it was ice and then just clockwork, there was the snow, and it was so much fun. It was 10:30 at night, and we were outside, and it was snowing, and you could hear kids in the neighborhood because look, we stay up because we're really want to see it. The kids in the neighborhood were up. All over Instagram, people had posted pictures of their kids at 11 PM because we stayed up, buddy. We knew it was coming. Then I woke up the next day and it was still on the ground.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. We had about an inch like I said. It didn't stick to any of the pavement because the pavement wasn't cold enough, but it stuck to the grass, it stuck to the roof for a little while, and then it was gone. I got my snow fix. That's all I needed. That was it. Good times.

Melanie Avalon: After our recording last week, I'm really obsessed with scallops. I don't know if you saw this on my Instagram.

Gin Stephens: I didn't.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really obsessed with scallops and they're nowhere now. Whole Foods doesn't have them anymore and they haven't been at the Costco by me. So, I call Costco and asked if they had any of the frozen scallops anywhere near me and the closest one was an hour away. So, I drove in that snowy, icy situation. I've realized I hadn't driven in snow. I didn't know. I was like can the car drive, is it okay to drive? I drove an hour and then I bought--

Gin Stephens: All the scallops?

Melanie Avalon: $700 worth of scallops. Because I have a chest freezer. I had to stock up because I think they're going to be gone for good. I got stock up for, I don't know.

Gin Stephens: From Costco?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Have you ever had them, the frozen scallops?

Gin Stephens: I don't like scallops.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, right. I don't know. I called Costco and they said they were deleting them from the system. He said there're 71 bags at this one an hour from you. It's like I'm going in the snow.

Gin Stephens: That person who came right after you who was needing some scallops was really sad. They should have called sooner. That's all I'm saying. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: But it's just funny because I was driving and I was in the car, I guess it's fine. I was looking around I was like other cars are driving.

Gin Stephens: It all depends on what the pavements doing. Cars are fine.

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: I grew up in Virginia, we didn't do anything special with our car other than you had special tires, like your snow tires or chains.

Melanie Avalon: Will the car slide?

Gin Stephens: That would be if the pavement was icy.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Then I was thinking like, "Well, there's always snow in Colorado and they're driving around."

Gin Stephens: Well, it's a bit. A lot of them have snow tires, which are designed different. You put different tires on in the winter. That was true. We also had chains I remember. You would put chains on your tires. I don't know if they still do that. But this was the 70s, 80s, we had snow chains, and the chains helped you get traction. I remember when it would snow, we would hear people going down the road because we lived in the mountains and you could hear [imitating sound] the sound of the chains on the cars. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was really excited because my car does have a snow button. A physical button that says sport. I don't know what the sport is for. Sport and snow. I was like, "I'm going to use this button."

Gin Stephens: Awesome. My car warns me if it's cold. So, that's good.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Nice, nice.

Gin Stephens: Tell me your good news. I had to talk about the snow before I forgot, but tell me about your other news. I'm excited to hear.

Melanie Avalon: I had two moments last week that have really just been a sign of how far I feel my other show has come. The first one was, I was listening to Rich Roll, and he had on this guy, who wrote a book called The Proof Is in the Plants, and I loved the interview. I was like, "I got to interview this guy." I wrote him down on my list of people to interview. But the thing is, I have this really long list of people I like to reach out to, but I don't actually really reach out to them because I'm so booked out. It's at the point where people come to me. I book people to come to me, but I'm not actively trying to book people is the point.

Gin Stephens: That's just like me for Intermittent Fasting Stories. There're just so many people waiting, I have to put them off, which is sad.

Melanie Avalon: On a rare occasion, I'll know a book is coming out and I'll be like I've got to get this person but usually I just don't. But this guy's in the vegan world. Like I said that with an attitude. My audience is not hardcore vegan. So, there's not much of an overlap. He commented on my Instagram. I had a post of about cholesterol from a guest. He said, "I have a different perspective. I would love to come on your show."

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's awesome. The universe connecting you.

Melanie Avalon: I was so excited. So, he's booked. Isn't that exciting?

Gin Stephens: It is. I actually had a week that was pretty exciting for me I didn't share on Wednesday. I got to interview my two scientist heroes on the same day.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait. Let me guess. Tim Spector?

Gin Stephens: Yep. We did a webinar together in my community. It wasn't really an interview. So much as it maybe we talked, but we were face to face on the Zoom webinar for the community. But who's the other one?

Melanie Avalon: Bert Herring?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: What does it start with, the initials?

Gin Stephens: M.

Melanie Avalon: Mark Mattson.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: That's why I was going to say but I couldn't remember his name.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Mark Mattson. Can I tell you, you will get this because you use the same booking software that I do where people go into a calendar link and book it?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Well, I got a message from Mark Mattson. For anyone who can't place him, he's the guy, he wrote that New England Journal of Medicine article that came out in 2019 that everyone went crazy over and suddenly people were wanting to do intermittent fasting for the health benefits. That's Mark Mattson. He is a superstar in the medical world. He works at Johns Hopkins and neurological work. That's his specialty. He's been doing intermittent fasting since the 80s. So, he has a book that's coming out in February. Yep, actually I have an early copy of it right here. It's called The Intermittent Fasting Revolution: The Science of Optimizing Health and Enhancing Performance. Anybody who really wants to dig deep into the science, you want to read his new book. Because it's super-duper digging into the science. It sounds like the New England Journal of Medicine article.

Anyway, so, his publicist had reached out to me about being on the podcast, I'm like, "Sure. Here's the link, I'd love it," and that made me super excited. Because people have been saying, I should have him on for a long time. He's been doing intermittent fasting personally since the 80s. But I just thought if it happens, it happens, but then they reached out to me. The morning on Wednesday, I was out driving around with Will and I got an email from Mark Mattson that was like, "Could you send me the link for the recording?" I'm like, "I would love to. First, you go ahead and sign up for a time." He's like, "Are we not doing it at 9 AM today?" I'm like, "What?" Apparently, he had gone and chosen the date, but it didn't save or maybe I don't know but he wrote it on his calendar.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, he thought he booked it.

Gin Stephens: But it hadn't booked fully. I don't know if there was a glitch or if he hadn't pressed that one final button to confirm and I've no idea. But I was like, "Okay, Mark Mattson thinks I'm flake."

Melanie Avalon: Wait. So, it was before 9 AM or after 9 AM?

Gin Stephens: Well, he sent the first message right at 9:00. Then I replied and then at 9:07, he's like, "I thought we were recording at 9:00." Fortunately, we were able to do it at 10:30. I booked myself back home [laughs] as fast as I could and I was like, "I'm so sorry. I promised I'm not flaky." But it was a great interview. I don't know what happened because that's never happened. I've never had anyone say, I booked and it didn't.

Melanie Avalon: I've had that but I'm always booking six months out. So, it's not a problem.

Gin Stephens: I remember thinking I'm surprised he hasn't booked yet. I need to reach back out to him. But I was giving him time to book it, but apparently, he had. Anyway. But both of them were the same day. So, that was very exciting and I was so tired. I was supposed to record Life Lessons with Sheri at 3:00. She was like, "Do you just want to do that tomorrow?" I'm like, "Oh, thank God."

Melanie Avalon: One per day for me, one per day.

Gin Stephens: I had two for the day and that was a lot, but then when I had that third one to pop in with Dr. Mattson and then the stress of that, and then I started thinking I used to teach all day long. I was in front of kids all day but it wasn't the same. It wasn't as intense. Was there something else you wanted to share and I just interrupted your exciting share with my other share?

Melanie Avalon: These are all related. These are the stories of how far we've come. I have two more. Also, last week, there was a guest that I actually-- Before I launched the show, that's when I was trying to book guests for the show and there was a guest that I tried to book, and this guest, their team said that they declined, which completely makes sense because when you're not a show yet, it's hard to know if it's going to be a show worth going on. This is a high-profile guest. This high-profile guest now wants to come on my show.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's good. Is it the one I know about?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. What's funny is, I remember when they declined two years ago or three years ago whenever that was, I was like, "Someday, they're going to want to come on my show." So, I'm very, very excited about that.

Gin Stephens: That is very exciting. Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. The third thing that you and I were just talking about was, I just emailed one of the guests that I've had on my show asking for an intro to somebody I would die to have on my show and it was really funny because I didn't realize they are not on speaking terms, so that was a really funny moment and also just goes to show how far we've come the people we're interacting with.

Gin Stephens: I don't take a minute of it for granted as I know you don't either, right?

Melanie Avalon: I know. It's just so wonderful. I don't know. I feel I'm going to feel like this forever. I feel I'm going to be the starry-eyed fangirl. Like, "What is happening in a decade?"

Gin Stephens: Oh, I know. That's how I felt with Mark Mattson. I'm like, "It's Mark Mattson." I was like, "I don't know if you're familiar with my book, Fast. Feast. Repeat,." He's like, "Yes, I've seen it." [sound] [laughs] Then Tim Spector, the fact that he agreed. The first day that was super exciting for me is when I was on Instagram a couple years ago maybe and I look, maybe, I don't know. Just over a year ago, Tim Spector, I went to look at his page and it said, follow back, that was so exciting. Now, I'm pretty sure it was probably his team. I don't know if he was [laughs]. Now, I understand a little bit more. On Instagram, I am pretty much it's just me. I don't have a team doing anything with Instagram but I know he probably does. It was very exciting. Then now that he knows who I am, I looked back, I actually read his book, his first book, I read it in 2015. I've known who he was in 2015 and he was shaping my thinking.

Melanie Avalon: Like Robb Wolf, 2012 was when I read his book. I guess, Robb's book, The Paleo Solution is what catapulted me into paleo. But what really catapulted me into low carb was Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes, and I read that in 2010.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it was a while ago. I read that a long time ago. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: The whole idea that it wasn't just calories in, calories out, that was what was astonishing. I don't agree with his whole carbs are bad manifesto but it helped me to understand the baby beginnings of, oh, insulin, oh, hormones. Oh, it's not just counting.

Melanie Avalon: It's such a dense book.

Gin Stephens: I haven't read that one in-- I don't know it's been a while.

Melanie Avalon: Remember I pulled it out when I interviewed him and all my notes were in it still, and highlights. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is such a moment." One little thing I just want to throw out there for listeners, listeners, I'm thinking this is just the baby beginning. I just started doing calls about it, but I'm thinking of making an EMF-blocking product. Let me know if this is of interest and what you would want.

Gin Stephens: That's very cool. I'm pretending EMF didn’t exist right now because I'm so bewildered about what to do. I don’t know [laughs] what to do. I'm like, "La, la, la." I didn't bring it up in Clean(ish), because I had no idea how I would even address this topic. So, I'm going to pretend it isn't real because [laughs] I don't want anyway. Oh, one more funny thing in a minute. Go ahead with your EMF.

Melanie Avalon: The thing I really want to make, I want to make a night slip that I sleep in. Like Victoria's Secret, but EMF blocking. But I did poll on my audience to see what people would want, the top ones were headphones and when you put your phone on your nightstand at night, something that you'd put on your phone so that you can have your phone on your nightstand at night, but it would be protected.

Gin Stephens: Oh, that's a good idea. I've started to have a hunch that perhaps some of my sleep issues that I claimed were wine/menopause might have to do with when we moved, in 2019 because our bedroom is on the corner of the house where the electric meter is. I sleep 10 feet from our electric meter.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. A smart meter? Yeah, no bueno.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's where the master bedroom is. [laughs] I need a cage. I don't know. Because I sleep so much better at the beach. I'm like, "Hmm, anyway."

Melanie Avalon: If you get one of the canopies?

Gin Stephens: Will see. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: If you do, you need to get it properly installed because I think I told why. I put mine up and then I read that if it's not properly installed it'll just make things worse, so I took mine down.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we're energy beings. If we have energy disrupted, it all makes sense. But I don't understand the ins and outs of it enough to really-- That's why, I didn't put it in the book. Because I just can't go down that road yet, I'm not ready.

Melanie Avalon: R. Blank is who I had on the show. Well, I've had on Dr. Mercola and R. Blank. I'll put links to both of those in the show notes. But R is the one that I've been doing calls with and you would love him. He's so science minded. I think he taught engineering at USC, actually, I think. But his dad was really big in the science of EMF world, I think. But he's so science driven. In the call, we had the call, because the biggest request I got was for jewelry. I was like, "Can we make jewelry?" and he was like, "That doesn't do anything." [laughs] I was like, "No."

Gin Stephens: I wanted it too. Yeah. He knows, he knows. Can I tell you a funny story?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Jason Fung, he and I have never actually spoken to each other or back and forth. I know you've had him on your show, but he's now with our same agent. Did you know that?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no. I didn't know that.

Gin Stephens: They're trying to connect us to do something like an Instagram live, he and I together or something. Something together. His publicist or somebody was like, "I'm working on, you're getting a date, when we can do this? But can I send you, his book?" If someone said, "Could I send you his book?" Would you assume he had a new book coming out? Well, I did. I assumed he had a new book coming out. I'm like, "Sure, send it to me." I thought he might have a new book. They sent me The Obesity Code. I'm like, "Oh, that's so sweet." I read that in 2016 when I preordered it. That's what's so funny. I preordered it. They thought I might not have read it. But I was like, "Oh, anyway, that was just funny," because I've been talking about it since I read it to anyone who would listen and that was before I even had. [laughs] It's recommended reading in both of my books, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: He has had a few books.

Gin Stephens: He has, he has. But I just assumed he was working on a new one and they were going to send me that. Then it came in. I was like, "Oh, this is so exciting." I opened it, it was The Obesity Code. I'm like, "Oh, my Lord." [laughs] Now, I have an extra copy of it. That's one I have on Kindle, in the paperback, and now I have another one. Anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I had him on for The Cancer Code.

Gin Stephens: Right.

Melanie Avalon: That was a really, really good-- I actually really liked that because I would like to talk more about fasting with him, but it was really nice to not talk about fasting with him, an entire different topic. I hadn't done an episode on cancer. So, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Well, anyway, I just thought that was funny. I had to share that. He and I might be doing an Instagram live at some point. Our schedules are hard to sync.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you've done Instagram lives.

Gin Stephens: I don't like to do them-- I don’t like to do I don't know why.

Melanie Avalon: I don't either, actually.

Gin Stephens: It's because we've talked about this before. I feel Instagram is some place I don't understand. [laughs] I've got to know how to do a lot. One time someone asked me to do an Instagram live on their page, and I thought they were just going to be interviewing me, but I had to do it all by myself. I'm like, "Wait a minute, why did I agree to this?" I'm talking straight into the camera, that's just not me, I don’t like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I wouldn't like that.

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Melanie Avalon: Okay, shall we answer some listener questions for today?

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: All right. To start things off, we have a question from Christie. The subject is: "Is diabetes a circadian disorder?" Christie says, "Hi, ladies. Y'all are awesome, amazing. I took a Dental Sleep Medicine course this week. The MD presented that diabetes could be a circadian disorder. Physiologically, based on hormones, the best time of day to eat is when the sun is shining. For instance, shift workers eating at night instead of eating during the day have a higher incidence of diabetes. Of course, this is not taking into account IF, I just thought it was interesting and a great conversation starter. Thanks for all, y'all do," Christie in Arkansas.

Gin Stephens: I find that to be so interesting. We do know that shift workers do have a lot of circadian disturbances. That does often show an increased weight. She said they are increased incidence of diabetes, but there's so much more to it than just that they're eating. We aren't supposed to be awake all night either. Sleep disturbances, forget about the eating. Let's just take that completely out of the equation. People who have bad sleep, poor sleep, in general, tend to have also higher instances. I just don't know that we can untangle. Oh, it's because they're eating at night. That could be a factor but there're so many factors at play. It's just not natural. I don't think it's natural. I would just come right out and say that physiologically based on hormones, we aren't supposed to eat for 16 hours a day. I think that that's more to go along with it, because now we're eating from early in the morning, early, early to late, late, late at night, and that's not natural. It's really hard to untangle all the factors.

But I would still love to see a study, we haven't got one yet. There's a lot of theory. We like to take theories and make blanket statements using them. We all do it. We like to find patterns, we like to make connections, but we still don't have a really good quality study that compared eating windows, all else being equal. The only thing being timing of the eating to see exactly what happens hormonally. We draw a lot of conclusions based on by the end of the day, our hormonal response is not as good, but that's in a paradigm of eating all day. So, it's hard to disconnect the paradigm of eating all day versus only eating during this period of time.

Again, overnight is very different, because you're not in sync with your normal circadian rhythm. Yeah, that was a whole lot of me saying, that's an interesting question and it's really hard to know exactly what is the root cause? This is the one thing when really, it's likely to be a combination of factors. Can I just say, Wednesday, when I was talking to all my science heroes, I love talking to hard scientists, because they are so not likely to make blanket statements. Tim Spector at one point is like, "Yeah, a lot of people say that we don't really know it. We just say it." Sounds that is so cool [laughs] to hear a scientist say that, instead of like, "Yeah, we know everything there is to know about that and let me tell you all the answers." Instead, he's like, "That's a theory, we don't really know, we're still figuring it out." That made me happy to hear.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more with everything that you said, so many things. The first thing that you were saying Gin about, there're so many factors involved in, it's not just the eating with the shift workers. Melatonin alone is probably going to be drastically affected in shift work. I have had on Dr. John Lieurance on my show. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. He talks all about the role of melatonin not really related to sleep so much as it being the master antioxidant in our body and all of these overwhelming effects it has. When you're not getting melatonin production appropriately that it can be a huge problem. It's really actually very mind blowing.

Gin Stephens: It's not just a sleep hormone, basically.

Melanie Avalon: That would be super messed up with or probably is messed up with shift workers. I actually have a really funny story, Gin. He promotes high dose melatonin and he actually has a melatonin suppository. Interestingly enough, I've interviewed Cynthia Thurlow yesterday and the topic of melatonin came up, and she was just going on and on about how incredible his melatonin suppositories are. I actually have some in my fridge and I haven't tried them. If listeners would like to try them, they're called Sandman. I'll put a link with a discount code in the show notes. Something that I did do recently. This is so funny.

When I had COVID, I was taking melatonin that's actually recommended to take more for its benefits. I was taking melatonin and it's the same brand as a brand of digestive enzymes that I take. Same bottle like it looks the exact same, the pills look the exact same, I take a lot of digestive enzymes. I was eating and I thought I was using the digestive enzymes. Then the next day I looked at my melatonin bottle and it was half empty. So, I had taken over 100 grams of melatonin, [laughs] which I felt really good the next day. The high dose, the Sandman melatonin suppository that he has I'm pretty sure it's like 100 and something grams. But I just thought it was funny that I accidentally high dosed myself with melatonin.

Gin Stephens: I wonder why it makes me feel hungover.

Melanie Avalon: I was really thinking about like the placebo effect and I wonder how much people feeling groggy from melatonin is placebo.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wasn't expecting to feel groggy from it. I didn't even know people said they felt groggy. All I ever hear is people talking about how amazing it is. The fact that I felt hungover was just not-- I didn't know that that happened because I haven't really studied melatonin much.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's interesting. Well, because the thing I was thinking about was, I wasn't tired at all and I took so much.

Gin Stephens: Benadryl also makes me not sleep.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, and Benadryl knocks me out.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I've got that weird brain chemistry.

Melanie Avalon: In any case, the point of that is that, the melatonin aspect alone. After reading John Lieurance's book, it's called Melatonin: The Miracle Molecule. That alone would be a huge thing for shift workers. Then something I wanted to speak to as well. The actual studies, I'm really excited, I was going to post this blog post already. The reason I have not is because-- I was on the cover of Biohackers Magazine in December. I'll put a link to in the show notes. If you want to get that issue, it has an interview with me and lots of fun stuff. The next issue that's coming out, they asked if I wanted to write any content for it. I decided before posting this on my blog to put it in that magazine. You'll be able to get it in that magazine when it comes out, which I'm not sure when it might be out by the time this is out. If so, I'll put a link to it. It will eventually be on my blog, and the link will be melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming.

Actually, if you go to that link, there'll be a link to that Biohackers Magazine, but in any case, the blog post is called "early versus late night eating, contradictions, confusions and clarity." I, friends did so much research, months and months, and I went and actually read all the studies, and I nitpicked, and I tried to really find what was going on with all of this. One of the sentences I wrote, it's basically what Gin just said. We are not well controlled studies directly comparing an early eating window to a night eating window and what they do and Gin was talking about this oftentimes is, they'll have the majority in the evening or the majority in the morning. While you might think that can tell you something, it might actually tell you nothing. The thing that I wrote, I'm just going to read it because it sounds it's similar to what Gin said. I said, "Perhaps most importantly, can we realistically draw any conclusions from late-night eaters correlating to health issues when the majority of these late-night eaters were likely also eating throughout the day. Simply skewing the majority of the calorie intake to earlier versus later in the day may have drastically different implications than only eating earlier, only eating late."

It's a huge hurdle in evaluating the studies because the former, those who eat throughout the day but with the majority at night may seem searingly relevant and their implications about meal timing. When in reality, it may bear little if any relevance. It may be that fasting throughout the day and then eating only in the evening reduces, if not eradicates all the issues of eating later when you're also eating earlier. Unfortunately, it's hard to know are there a few studies directly comparing early versus late night eating?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, and I also am 100% of the mindset that we are not all the same when it comes to that. I don't think that just like the whole glycemic index is a lie because it's based on an average. I think that even if they'd said here's the perfect time for everybody to eat because we averaged everybody together and this is the best time average, that would also be a lie. It'd be like saying, if we averaged all women's height together and said, "All right, the average height for a woman is--" I don't know. What? 5'5", I'm making that up. If you're a woman, you're 5'5", because we're not average. There are people that I know, like you, Melanie, who like to stay up really late because that's how your body feels the best. I could write a book all about how you're supposed to wake up at 5:30 in the morning because then you'll be super productive, and feel your best, and you should go to bed at 8:30. I could say I feel tired every night at 8:30. So that means you should, too, and I would be wrong. We're also very different with our circadian, what feels right and what our body likes to do.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Even her question, she's saying is diabetes a circadian disorder?

Gin Stephens: It could be.

Melanie Avalon: It's not necessarily the eating late version of that is the disorder. It might more be the individual person and what their hormones are, their natural rhythms, and if they're living in accordance with that or not. Interestingly, so one of the studies I discuss in my article, it was a 2021 nutrient study and it was called Beneficial Effects of Early Time-Restricted Feeding on Metabolic Diseases. Importance of Aligning Food Habits with a Circadian Clock. It was a bit frustrating to read because it dives deep. It was a really excellent overview of basically every single hormone when it's released and what that meant about when you should eat. Just reading it objectively, the takeaway I took and I think I will briefly go through the example of the hormones, but after I looked at what they said the data honestly the best window seemed to be between I concluded probably 4 PM to 7 PM.

Gin Stephens: Your eating window? That is very similar to what I do.

Melanie Avalon: But their agenda is so clearly for early eating that they conclude the opposite, not the opposite, they conclude that you should eat in the morning. The examples, I'll just go through briefly and again read this whole article if you are interested because it goes in deep. Here's what they said and why I interpret it that way and Gin, you can let me know if you agree with my interpretation. It's a really fun game. They say that the hormone when it peaks and then I said, just based on that one hormone when I would eat, and that's how I came up with the window that I thought was best. Okay, so, the first hormone is cortisol. That's a catabolic hormone. It breaks down muscle. A catabolic hormone often associated with the fasted state and it encourages the release of all fuel substrates into the bloodstream, fatty acids, glucose, and amino acids. That's what cortisol does in relation to eating or not eating. It peaks in the early morning.

Gin Stephens: Right. I would want my body to be breaking things down in my body and not eating.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That was my takeaway. You don't want to be eating when you're already releasing fuel from yourself. I would not want to eat in the early morning with cortisol. Okay, so, then adiponectin, that's a hormone which promotes fat burning in carbs. It correlates to eating disinhibition.

Gin Stephens: Not being hungry.

Melanie Avalon: Right. But interestingly, not eating restraint or hunger. It's nebulous. It has mixed eating behaviors and this is really interesting. It can have different roles but it's actually secreted basically all day from 10 AM to 9 PM. It peaks at 11 AM between 8:00 and 4:00 though specifically, so 8 AM to 4 PM, that's when it's also produced with a hormone called FGF-2, FGF-1. And together they're produced and they promote fatty acid oxidation, glycolysis, and they actually inhibit fat accumulation. That one's confusing. But my takeaway was, it's always going but you're in a more fatty acid burning state from 8 AM to 4 PM, which doesn't speak to me that you should be eating earlier because that's an earlier window. Oh, here's the second part. The nuance of it is that it can actually be catabolic or anabolic and it has to do with whether or not insulin is involved.

Gin Stephens: If you're low insulin, it's catabolic and if you're high insulin, it's anabolic.

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Another reason to keep your insulin low during the fast.

Melanie Avalon: Natural insulin secretion occurs from 2 PM to 6 PM and peaks from 4 PM to 5 PM. My takeaway from that was that 2 PM to 6 PM would be a good time to eat. Then also the hunger hormone ghrelin, which makes us hungry peaks at 6 PM. That said to me that perhaps a perfect time to eat is around 6 PM.

Gin Stephens: Well, all that is hilarious because my body told me that I feel my very, very best if I open my window around 4:00 and I'm finishing my dinner sometime just around after 7:00.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is okay because that was literally the window that I came up with. Ghrelin, it is higher at noon than at 8 AM and it peaks later. Basically, around that afternoon to early evening was really the takeaway that I got. Then, so one other hormone is leptin, which makes us feel full and it actually begins to rise at 4:00 and peaks at 7:00.

Gin Stephens: Love it. Thank you, body for already knowing that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay, so to recap, the hormones in general just seem primed for us to eat late afternoon, maybe even a little bit later 4:00 up until 6:00 or 7:00. That's what's my take away. They concluded the complete opposite that early eating was better. I don't really know how they did.

Gin Stephens: I have another question.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: I'm thinking back to the glycemic index example. When they were like, "Yep, this is the glycemic index of potatoes" because they average their body's response together and then came up with that. I wonder if we all have different pulses of when these hormones peak, also, when they're like, "All right, whatever, between 4:00 and 7:00, maybe that's the average, and yours peaks between 9:00 and 11:00." Somebody else, theirs might peak in the morning. I know people who have morning window is what feels best for them. They feel great with their morning window. I wonder if their hormones do different things than mine do.

Melanie Avalon: I would guess so. I think the shift might be the same. The patterns of-- what is the terminology for it? In comparison to each other, what we just discussed with the different hormones like cortisol being earlier and then later, ghrelin and insulin like that might be similar, but the actual times would be different.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The way that it goes one after the other in that time sequence. Yeah, that makes sense. But just with the whole normal curve that we have the normal distribution curve, there're people that are exactly average right in the middle. Maybe I am just a lucky average right in the middle. My average is the same as what that article discussed. But somebody else might be shifted to the left side of that and someone else is on the right side. You're on the right, you're in the later part of the day versus there're people that are on the left extreme feel better in the morning part of the day.

Melanie Avalon: Can I read you this one part? This is where I was like-- I don't know what to do with this. Because they talk about when the different hormones are released and then they literally they draw the conclusion on the hormone based on what they want it to be, which is an early window. When they're talking about insulin, first they say, "It was based on the timing of, I think that the window they wanted to promote." They say, "The consumption of food should not occur during the insulin peak because it induces fat storage." First, they say, "We shouldn't eat when insulin is high because it'll induce fat storage." I could talk about how that doesn't make much sense to me because I think Insulin is the storage hormone. We probably should be eating when it's high like the reason we're eating.

Gin Stephens: That's its purpose. The reason it's high is because that's when your body is dealing with food.

Melanie Avalon: What are you going to do? You're not going to store food when you eat it? [laughs] But then later they talk about insulin levels at night, and they talk about how insulin levels are low, and they say that you shouldn't eat when insulin is low because it says, "If glucose consumption occurs during the evening, the body will not be able to process it properly because of the low insulin." [laughs] Basically, they literally draw the exact opposite conclusion about insulin.

Gin Stephens: It all goes down to this, what feels good to you do that. If I tried to do the wrong thing, if I tried to eat at a time that doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel good.

Melanie Avalon: Well, and then to that point, what's actually really interesting is at least one, maybe two of the studies, they talked about how they were looking at these late-night eating windows, and that the people would be full-- Okay, I think it was two different studies where they might have been overlapping. But in one of the cases, they wanted to make the calories equal. For the late-night eating window, they had to make it really processed. They had to make it high calorie in order to make sure that they ate enough. Then in another study, they literally said the people would not have eaten all of it if they hadn't been forced to eat all of it.

Gin Stephens: They force fed people food that [laughs] they didn't want to eat.

Melanie Avalon: They were looking at a shortened eating window at night. The irony of it is in that study at the end they talk about how the window probably only-- The benefits might require a calorie restriction. But in the study, they forced the people to eat more than they wanted. I was saying that, when people follow intermittent fasting pattern in their natural day to day life, they're probably naturally going to eat less, because in the studies they're forced to eat more. In any case, it's definitely very individual.

Gin Stephens: It really is. It's why I will never tell you what is, "The best time to eat." I genuinely think you've got to find that for yourself. If I did exactly what you did, Melanie, I would not feel my best, and you would not feel your best doing exactly what I do. That doesn't mean what you're doing is wrong or what I'm doing is wrong. We've been doing this a long time. [laughs] If it was not sustainable, we wouldn't be able to sustain it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

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Melanie Avalon: Hopefully, that was helpful. Do we have time for one more?

Gin Stephens: I think we have time for this next one.

Melanie Avalon: All righty.

Gin Stephens: Okay, this is from Mary Ellen and the subject is: "Organic cheese." She says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie, I feel like a stalker because this is the third question I've submitted, but instead I'll coin Melanie's term 'fangirl' and go with that." Now, if you show up on my doorstep, Melanie that would be stalker. [laughs] Sending lots of questions, we'd love that.

Melanie Avalon: Mary Ellen, you mean?

Gin Stephens: What did I say?

Melanie Avalon: You said me.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I meant Mary Ellen, Mary Ellen. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to show up at your door.

Gin Stephens: Well, you could show up at my door anytime.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, likewise. Actually, just let me know. I'm a planner. I would actually not do well.

Gin Stephens: Okay. Yeah, that's true. I like planning, too. Yeah, I met Mary Ellen. She said, "My last question was regarding celery powder and I thank you for your timely in-depth response. I am 50 years old and have been following IF for a few years. I had mentioned previously that I had a concerning colonoscopy, and am reducing my meat intake, and removing bacon and processed meats from my diet. I have also decided to follow Melanie's advice and Gin's advice in Clean(ish) to remove vegetable oil and canola oil from my diet when possible. In my quest to improve my colon health, I'm trialing no dairy. I have had lifelong issues with constipation. Hence, my first question about a year ago regarding magnesium supplements.

I plan to be dairy free for a few months to see if my bowel habits improve. My question is, when I reintroduce dairy into my diet, are there some cheeses that are healthier than others? For example, is ricotta less inflammatory than cheddar or should I be okay as long as I buy organic cheeses only? Cheese is one of my favorite foods, and although I will reduce the amount, I eat overall. After my test, I plan to take a Clean(ish) approach. Life is too short to never eat pizza. Thank you again," Mary Ellen.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Mary Ellen. Thank you so much for your question. This is a wonderful question, which has an answer. I feel similar to the question we just did and that it's very individual as far as the inflammatory potential of cheese, I think. This is very timely because I just finished reading a book somebody I'm going to have on the show. His name is Bill Schindler. He's been on a lot of National Geographic crazy stuff. I don't even know what the shows are that he was on, but really intense living like a caveman-type stuff. His book is called Eat Like a Human: Nourishing Foods and Ancient Ways of Cooking to Revolutionise Your Health. This book blew my mind. He talks about the historical things that we ate as hunter gatherers and our evolution, and he's all about eating like a human. He talks about eating nose to tail, and insect protein, and soil, and just so many things, but he has a whole section on dairy.

The reason I bring this up is I share his opinion. But there are so many different opinions on dairy. I'll tell you what he says, but then other people are going to say something completely different. For dairy, I really think you'd have to find just what works for you. Gin, do you know the history of why raw milk is considered to be so problematic?

Gin Stephens: I can't tell you the ins and out, but yeah, it's a little bit maddening because anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He talks about this in the book. The regulations on raw milk started in the 1920s. Prior to that, there were dairies next to distilleries to maximize profits, and they would actually feed the cows, this grain swill mashed stuff that was created from the alcohol production, it led to really disgusting milk from these cows. Then they would doctor up the milk with I'm not making this up, things like molasses, plaster of Paris, animal brains, and probably some other things. They would make it look all pretty, and then they would sell it as country fresh milk, and this led to the sickening and killing of thousands of people. There're 8,000 deaths and it was mostly children that were dying from it. Then regulation started in 1920s and milk had to be pasteurized and raw milk was banned. The thing is actual raw milk that's not coming from alcohol grain-fed cows with plaster of Paris, and brains in it. Between 1993 and 2012, almost 10 years, I don't take hospitalizations lightly but there were only 144 hospitalizations in a decade from raw milk.

Gin Stephens: We've had more hospitalizations from spinach or iceberg lettuce.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I don't know those 144 individual cases. I don't know. I would guess that maybe a handful of them probably wasn't even entirely the raw milk. These aren't deaths. These are hospitalizations.

Gin Stephens: It makes me wonder though how much of it is because people just don't have access to it. I've only had raw milk when I was a little girl, and grew up, and some friends had a dairy farm. I had it there. But I can't buy it in my state. We can't buy it. I don't know. That's just a factor. I am not anti-raw milk and I wish I could buy it. I'd be buying it all day long. But that's just a variable.

Melanie Avalon: I wrote that down. I'm going to talk to him about that. That's a really good point.

Gin Stephens: But I would 100% buy raw milk if I could.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's just a little bit, like, you're talking about being political. The CDC, they actually say that raw milk is one of the riskiest health things that there is. There're arrests, and there've been fines, and loss of family farms and so. But in any case, he's a huge, huge fan of raw milk because it has all of the enzymes. People have issues with milk, it has all of the enzymes in it naturally needed to help it digest properly in our system because when it's pasteurized, it kills all those enzymes. Pasteurization also kills the bacteria that can have a really beneficial effect potentially on our gut. He advocates out of like, "What are the best milks to buy?" This is milk, realize, but this would extend to dairy as well. He says, number one, high-quality raw from a small dairy farm, but don't buy if you don't know the source. It's really, really important to know the farm that it's coming from. Then two, low temperature, non-homogenized, organic from a small dairy. Three, pasteurized, non-homogenized, organic whole milk. Four, pasteurized, homogenized, organic, whole milk. Then for cheeses and stuff, he's all about, again, made from non-pasteurized, and organic, and made actually using-- it's called, is it rennet or rennet that's used to make it?

Gin Stephens: I think it's rennet, but I could be wrong. In my head, I've always said rennet, which doesn't mean it's right.

Melanie Avalon: I'm not sure. Rennet, rennet. Using that rather than a lot of cheeses now are very produced and they use things like citric acid. He's all four like the original form. Also, I don't know. I don't really see like cheese made from A2 milk but that's the type of milk that is supposed to be less inflammatory because it's the original type of milk that we were originally drinking. Oh, another reason that pasteurization can create a problem, so, casein is a type of protein in milk and cheese. When you pasteurize it, it actually de-natures that protein, and it can make that protein inflammatory and hard to digest. If you are getting non-pasteurized milk and cheese, it's the potential that it will be less inflammatory.

Another thing that can be inflammatory for people might be the lactose. The sugar in the milk, when you get it in its raw form and non-pasteurized, again, it has those enzymes in it naturally to help break that down and/or if it's fermented dairy, then the bacteria can actually ferment that lactose and convert that sugar into lactic acid. So, people who have lactose intolerance can often have fermented cheese and dairy products. But all of that to say, that's his opinion. He would be for raw cheese's, fermented, non-pasteurized, but then you could talk to somebody else. I'm reading Rick Johnson's new book right now called Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. He's actually all for dairy because he thinks it's not involved in the obesity spiking problems that we have from protein foods rich in umami. That savory taste that we get. But he's all for actually low-fat dairy, which would be the complete opposite of what Bill Schindler is saying. You're going to get all different answers.

As far as what is less inflammatory, I don't think there's a blanket statement. If I were to make approaching a blanket statement, a lot of cheeses are pretty processed. You go to the store, and if you actually look at the ingredients, and it has all this stuff in it, I would stay away from that. That's in the spirit of Gin's book, Clean(ish). I think going closer to the source and not having those additives is probably going to be better but you really have to find what works for you.

Another thing to keep in mind is some people have problems with FODMAPs. You can get my app, Food Sense Guide, melanieavlon.com/foodsenseguide, It will tell you the FODMAPs potential of all the different cheeses. I put so many cheeses in it. So, that might be a helpful resource. For her question, "Should I be okay, as long as I buy organic cheese?" I would dive a little bit deeper. I would look at the cheese that you're eating, and the ingredients, and just see what works for you, and that was all over the place. But Gin?

Gin Stephens: Cheese is just so tricky as far as organic. Anyway, I just have to tell you finding organic cheese is not easy. There are so many amazing cheeses out there that they don't claim to be organic. I bet a lot of them probably are. Some of the imported cheeses but they're not USDA certified because they're not American. [laughs] I don't know. Cheese is just tricky. If I said I'm only going to buy organic cheeses, I would be very limited to my cheese options. I prioritize organic dairy, like, organic cream. Yes, I can find that, and organic sour cream, yes, I can find that. But if I'm looking for Brie, I don't have a store on Augusta with organic Brie. I don't. If I want to eat Brie, I'm just buying the French Brie. I try to stick with the ones that I feel probably were made more traditionally and that's probably from another country. That's just a little something right there. Did you watch Michael Pollan's, Cooked on Netflix, Melanie? Did you ever watch them?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: You should watch it. You would love it. There're only four episodes. You would love it. But there was one on one of them, I can never remember which one is which. But maybe it's air where they talk about fermented things, I can't remember. Whichever one talks about-- they talk about kombucha, I think, but they also talk about cheese. There was a story that really sticks out to me. It was a nun, and she was making cheese in a cave, and they're like, "That is not hygienic. You cannot make cave cheese in a barrel." It wasn't "hygienic." Then they made her make it in a kitchen in a stainless steel, whatever, but it ruined the cheese, and it actually was worse and spiked the levels of whatever it was. Because anyway, so, then she was ended up making it back in the cave. Just because we think that being germ free and bacteria free is what we want but that's the opposite of what we want really. We need those things. Kids, who are out playing in the dirt correlationally tend to be healthier than the kids that are in their hygienic hand sanitizer bubble.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: There is a book called Eat Dirt. Do you Remember that book?

Melanie Avalon: Is that Josh Axe?

Gin Stephens: Maybe.

Melanie Avalon: You would like this Eat Like a Human book. I think it's really interesting.

Gin Stephens: I like things that are interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I learned so much. I do wonder about the future of insect protein.

Gin Stephens: Not interested.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm excited to talk to him about it and I think he is a-- Is he a professor at college? He talks about how he tried to have insect protein at the college. They said, no, because I guess they said it wasn't according to the regulations. But then because it's technically grass what generally recognized as safe, he was like, "No, we can have this." So, we set up like an insect food cart at the college and it was very popular. Like a taco thing or something. I'm really excited to talk.

Gin Stephens: Well, look, I don't even like scallops. I'm definitely not going to eat insects. Sorry. Unless they're hidden in my food. Because so many insects are in there. Anyway, you don't even know it.

Melanie Avalon: Here's a question for you. I've been doing a lot of research on pet food because I think I want to do a pet food brand. I'm doing all the things, Gin.

Gin Stephens: I love it. Live your best life. [laughs] You're so young, you have so much time.

Melanie Avalon: I want to make all the things. One of the trends because I've been doing a lot of market research, and one of the projected trends actually is alternative ingredients in pet food, and including insect protein. Would you buy that for your cat if it had insect protein or would your initial reaction that you just had about insect protein? Would that extend to your cat as well?

Gin Stephens: Well, I have seen my cats eat bugs. That's probably what they're naturally eating. I don't mind if chickens eat bugs because they're supposed to eat bugs. I'm not against bug eating. I just don't want to eat them myself. The only time, the only experience I have in my mind of watching people eat bugs is always if they're stranded in a really bad situation and they're like, "I guess, I'll eat these cockroaches because that's all there is," There's no model that I have in my mind of like, "Here's the delicious plate of bugs." That's our society, our culture, I don't know of any positive bug experiences I have in my mind.

Melanie Avalon: I wonder if there ever will be a rebranding because he talks about the health benefits of cricket protein, and he talks about all different ones, but it's very impressive. It's very high protein, it's very high nutrients, it's very sustainable.

Gin Stephens: Is there a point where I just get to say, I'm old now, I'm not doing that? [laughs] Y'all do that young people. I'm just going to do this. [laughs] That's what I feel about that. I don't think I'd mind with pet foods because it's different. My cat, I've seen Ellie eat an entire lizard except for the head, literally like ate the whole thing, there's the head still there but I'm not going to eat a lizard. But I'm sure people do but I'm not going to. No, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: I read his book, I read all about the insect stuff and then when I was doing the research, there was this whole section on how insect protein is projected to be a trend in the pet food industry.

Gin Stephens: I have heard that. By the way, I know lizards are not insects. That was two separate examples. People are like, "Does Gin think of lizard is an insect?" No. [laughs] Although, let me tell you this funny thing. Will is here with his cat, Pepper, who's nine months old. Pepper had something last night in the kitchen and I'm like, "Oh, my God. Is that a snake? What is that that he's got?" It was a stick. This cat all day long has been bringing in sticks. We have a whole pile of sticks now next to the cat door. The cat is out there catching sticks and I'm like, "Ah, poor little baby." [laughs] Ellie brings in lizards. Listeners know this. Lucy will play with a roach if one is in the house or so then there's Pepper, he's got his pile of sticks. Okie-dokie. He's actually a very smart cat but it's just funny.

Melanie Avalon: Is he a kitten still?

Gin Stephens: He's nine months old.

Melanie Avalon: I'm bad with evaluating, how big a cat is at a certain age.

Gin Stephens: He's pretty big. Will's had him since he was tiny. Will adopted him really early but he didn't know how to be with other cats. So, we're having that problem because now he's living here with our cats, and he doesn't know how to be a cat friend. My tip for anybody is now adopt two from the same litter if you can. So, that'll teach them how to be and they'll love each other because they literally came out together. But anyway, he's got his pile of sticks right there by the cat door and it is so funny.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: It is. Yeah, good luck with the pet food. That sounds fun.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, thank you. There're so many things.

Gin Stephens: I'm going to sell cat sticks. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Would you make a product ever do you think? If you could what would you?

Gin Stephens: I actually have. Have I ever talked about my teacher pocket chart?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I had a company that made it and I bought it. They did all the work. I just like intellectual property. I'm like, "Here, I designed this. Now, you make it and sell it and send me my checks." That was what that was. Yeah. I had a teacher pocket. I didn't make very much. The biggest check I ever got was 400 bucks and I got the checks quarterly. [laughs] I didn't make a lot of money from it but it was really exciting. I don't know. I'm not going to say I would never have a product. Remember I did that merch for a while?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: It was a lot of work. If something was wrong, I had to manage that. I didn't like that. I don't like doing customer service.

Melanie Avalon: That's why I've realized I think the thing that works for me is finding people already doing and I partner with them and then I'm like, "Yeah, I come up with the idea, and the branding, and I oversee the creation," but then I'm not actually producing, and shipping, and customer service. But customer service, I am on all the emails and for my supplement, I do answer emails.

Gin Stephens: I would do merch again because I thought that was fun with Delay, Don't Deny or whatever some fasting stuff. I enjoyed designing those. The graphic design of it and some of the images that I came up with I really liked, but the companies I was using at the time, the print on demand with coffee mugs, or t-shirts, or whatever. You had to be very involved. They did part of it but if there was a problem, you had to like-- If someone's coffee cup arrived broken, I don't have time to be dealing with that. I've yet to find a company that really did that.

Melanie Avalon: That's nice with my supplement, my AvalonX Serrapeptase. We haven't had barely any issues, but the issues that we have had, I don't have to do any of that.

Gin Stephens: Again, though, I'm at this the phase of my life where I'm more winding down. I remember, there's something I saw one time, it was an article about women, and when we should retire, and start to ease up a little bit. I don't know that's what the science was based on but it's stuck in my mind. I'm like, "Oh, okay, I'm close to that age now." I want to walk on the beach, and I want to do the podcasts, and I don't know that I'm going to do lots more new things, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I feel I'm probably going to be like this until [giggles] 90.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's interesting to see because I remember there was a period of time when I was teaching full time, teaching the gifted endorsement classes two nights a week after school that I stayed after school to teach, and teaching for two online universities, and starting to manage my Facebook support groups, all at the same time.

Melanie Avalon: The question is, with the teaching did it make you feel alive?

Gin Stephens: It all did. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Did you wanted to just keep doing it forever?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I loved doing it. Then one day, I was like, "I'm tired of doing this now."

Melanie Avalon: Okay.

Gin Stephens: I was basically-- I look back, I'm like, "How did I do all that?" But I did. The boys were still at home. But really it did energize me. Now, I'm in a phase where I wonder if menopause has something to do with that, the hormones, but now I'm more in a reflective phase where it's easier for me to pick and choose to let things go if that makes sense. Releasing things, I don't need to be amazing on Instagram, and I don't really want to, and that's okay, or I don't need to have multiple new business strains, whatever. Simplifying. I feel there might come a point and we'll have this conversation when you're 90. We can talk about because we'll both be alive because of intermittent fasting. We'll be doing great. One day, I bet you will want to slow down but you've got decades before.

Melanie Avalon: I was listening to an interview on Rich Roll. They were talking about somebody else. I don't remember who it was, but she was this woman who just keeps on keep going-- just is this vibe that I'm trying to articulate. They're saying how she's 80 and she has her 10-year plan right now for her next endeavors. I feel like that's me.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Well, I've just started a new business in the past year. My community, I started that business less than a year ago, and that was my pivot, and that's business. Okay, so you know what I'm lying? Because Will and I are talking of our dream of running a coffee shop together with coffee and I would like to be part of that, and it's just different things. All right. So, I'll never stop. My ideas are different than just-- I don't really want to sell products. I would like to have a little coffee shop with Will, where he can hang his art and have open mic night, and we're making a community coffee shop.

Melanie Avalon: I like creating things. It's not really selling products is creating things that change people's lives.

Gin Stephens: I like community. I want a little coffee shop where people come and it's the same people and they come together. I'm a community creator. One day, I bet we'll do something like that, and me and Will. Yeah, I'll probably do more things and more businesses, but I don't know, it's an interesting question. I know I've got a lot more time to do things. Also, I do have three podcasts, and a full-time community that I'm running, and [laughs] just released a book. But what I'm saying is it's funny that I consider this is slowing down is my point. I have really slowed down lately. [laughs] That's what's really funny.

Melanie Avalon: That is funny. Last thing. I had a major epiphany this week and this goes to now, I'm like, "Oh, maybe this should be my long-term goal in the entrepreneur world." There is not a Whole Foods version of Target. There's not a Sustainable Green Target or Walmart. Isn't that crazy? You think there would be like where the grocery section is Whole Foods and then the clothing is all sustainable brands and there's not.

Gin Stephens: That would be amazing. Yeah, that would be great. Let's see, I have zero desire to be in charge of that.

Melanie Avalon: This idea came to me, I was talking with my business partner, Scott. Hi, Scott. He listens to all of our shows. I was like, "Long-term goal now." [giggles] Have the sustainable green target. The only thing is I don't know, the brick and mortar stores-- I don't know the longevity of those with everything being like Amazon and stuff.

Gin Stephens: See, that makes me really sad because I like to be able to touch stuff. I like to go to the store.

Melanie Avalon: Actually, how about we just replace all the Targets and Walmarts with this new store?

Gin Stephens: That would be amazing. Oh, when I do, Will and I've been talking about this, I don't know if we'll ever do this. But he's not sure what he wants to do, but he likes to be in food service. He likes that. He enjoys getting to know people and the arts. This is a nice way to combine them one day, like a little cafe kind of a thing also with the music and the art going on. But I was like, "Well, it needs to be organic" because we don't have anything like that. Everything organic coffee, organic pastries.

Melanie Avalon: Are you going to do it?

Gin Stephens: We might do it one day. We're really talking about it. Oh, right now, we're not ready to do it right now. He's not ready. He is 22. He needs to learn more. I've recommended that he work at a bunch of different restaurants. Yesterday, we went to a coffee shop that's local that we like and he's like, "These tables, I don't like them." He being able to really look critically like, "If I had this place, I would--" Ambience would be a little different for example.

Melanie Avalon: Has he worked in a coffee shop?

Gin Stephens: He's not ever worked in a coffee shop, but he's worked in several different types of restaurants. He's been to coffee shops, you know what feels good. But I think working in a coffee shop would be another-- I think we're a few years away but he's got to get older, experienced, on-the-job training. He's basically going to the college of life. There's no better way to really learn about the restaurant world than to be immersed in the restaurant world.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Maybe the next step down the line after he has more experience. We have a local school like a technical school they might call it. I'm not really sure. It's got college in the name of it, but they have a one-year program that teaches you the business and the culinary. It's a culinary school.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay, yeah.

Gin Stephens: Anyway, what were you going to say?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was just going to say the difference between the service industry, how you really just need that experience. It's not at all related really to education at a collegiate system. I graduated summa cum laude from USC, and I couldn't get a restaurant job because I didn't have experience.

Gin Stephens: Right. It's a different experience. I always worked in restaurants as a server.

Melanie Avalon: I did end up working in restaurants.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. It wasn't easy to get your foot in the door.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "I could do this job." [laughs]

Gin Stephens: But Will likes behind the house thing, back at the house I guess is the word. He likes back at the house and he doesn't like waiting on the tables.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode251. The show notes will have a full transcript and links to everything that we talked about, and we talked about a lot of stuff. So, definitely check that out and then you can follow us on Instagram like we've been talking about. That is @ifpodcast and Gin is @ginstephens, and I am @melanieavalon. All right, great show. Anything from you, Gin before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 30

Episode 250: Building Muscle, Everyday Movement, Cellulite, Authenticity In Research, Fructose, Insulin Resistance, Female Independence, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Episode 23: 16:8 vs. OMAD, Cold While Fasting, Stubborn Fat, Cellulite, IF & Brain Function, All Day Social Events, Cram It In Or Space It Out?

Welcome to Episode 250 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LEVELS: Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At levels.link/ifpodcast!

GREEN CHEF: Go To Greenchef.Com/Ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Kelly - Research, Cellulite, and Weightlifting

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 250 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can skip a 150,000 people waitlist and finally get something that we love and talk about on this show all the time, a continuous glucose monitor, also known as a CGM. Wearing a CGM has honestly been one of the most profound bio hacks that I have personally experienced for understanding how I respond to food, what type of diet and fasting work for me, and truly taking charge of my health. A continuous glucose monitor is an easy to apply sensor that you put onto your arm and guess what it continuously monitors your blood glucose, also known as your blood sugar. With a CGM, you can literally see in almost real time how foods are affecting your blood sugar levels, how your blood sugar levels change during your fast, how exercise affects them, and so much more. CGMs used to only be available to diabetics or if you had a prescription, but now, Levels is changing all of that. Yep, Levels is making CGMs accessible to everyone. With Levels, you get a prescription for a CGM and then you sync it with their amazing app, which lets you track your blood sugar over time, see graphs of your data, get your own metabolic score, and see how that changes, log your meals, and so much more. I am obsessed with wearing CGMs. I've been experimenting with them and talking about them on this show for months now. But even if you just wear one once, I think, you will learn so, so much about your body and about your health.

Here's the thing. Levels has a waitlist of 115,000 people. But no worries. For my audience, you can skip that and get one right now. Just go to levels.link/ifpodcast. That's L-E-V-E-L-S dot link slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T to skip that waitlist of 150,000 people. If you'd like to learn all of the science of Levels, you can check out my interview with the founder, Casey Means, that's at melanieavalon.com/levels and definitely check out my Instagram, because I have so many reels about how to put on a CGM, it is painless, and so, so easy to do, I promise. Again, that's levels.link/ifpodcast and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often tests high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient in their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on and on top of that their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combined the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 250 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody. Yeah, 250 seems like a milestone, doesn't it?

Melanie Avalon: I know. Actually, one of my Facebook moderators asked me, "If we were doing anything special for it?" I was like, "No, sorry. 300, I guess we'll do."

Gin Stephens: 300, we will, we will.

Melanie Avalon: Will be the next one.

Gin Stephens: Or, we could do something for the birthday, Wasn’t it like May 1st? When did the first one come out?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I don't know. Was it in May?

Gin Stephens: Here's what I think happened. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You're like, "I'm going to submit it to iTunes and see when it publishes because they just accept them when they accept them." Then it just happened to be a Sunday night and that's why we publish on Sunday, because that just happens to be when it happened.

Melanie Avalon: Do we post a little teaser thing, so that we could lock it in?

Gin Stephens: We did not. We did not. I did that for my podcast and I'm sure you did that for yours, but we did not.

Melanie Avalon: We just posted it blind?

Gin Stephens: That's what I think we did. I remember that. It just happened to hit on a Sunday and that might be why we posted on Sunday. I swear I think that's what happened. That's how I remember it.

Melanie Avalon: I remember us wanting to do Sunday. Interesting how we have-- This trivially makes you just question everything about reality. I remember us wanting to do a certain day. but not knowing if it was going to post on that day. So, we were going to let the first one hopefully, land around that time and then we were going to pull it together. I don't know.

Gin Stephens: The reason why it sticks in my head that I don't think we did that is because when I was creating the Intermittent Fasting Stories Podcast, Resonate Recordings was helping me get started, and they are like, "We suggest that you release as Episode Zero, so that Episode Zero will be the trailer episode and then you make sure to have plenty of time before you can have your first episode be on the day you want it." So, I was like, "Oh, that's so interesting. I'd never thought it." I feel like I would have remembered if we had done that, too. It wouldn't have been so like, "Wow, what an interesting strategy." I don't know. That's just how I remember it. But it was somewhere, I think we were shooting for May 1st but maybe it came out early, I can't remember those details.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it has been a long time.

Gin Stephens: It really has.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy. How is the weather for you right now?

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm living in FOMO land here in Augusta, Georgia because everyone who lives north of a certain line is getting snow. You said, you've got some snow, we're getting wet rain. I mean, I guess, wet rain is the only kind of rain. Well, there's freezing rain but it's still wet. But we're just having regular rain and it's 37 degrees. [sighs] and people are like, "Oh, it's snowing." I'm like, "Not here." So, you've had some snow.

Melanie Avalon: It is snowing right now.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I wish I could see that.

Melanie Avalon: I am looking out the window and there is snow falling from the sky.

Gin Stephens: So, people often wonder why Augusta so often doesn't get the same weather as Atlanta and it has to do. Can I put on my third-grade science teacher hat for a minute?

Melanie Avalon: Please do.

Gin Stephens: One thing about Augusta is we are in the coastal plain of Georgia. We're literally the very northernmost part of the coastal plain because actually, when you look at all the oldest cities like Augusta has been around for a long time. When you look at some of the oldest cities that are inland up rivers like Augusta, they're as far as you could get. And then people got here and they're like, "Well, let's just make a city here." So, if you're sailing up from the coast up the Savannah River, Augusta's as far as you can go because they had the fall line which means that there's rapids and stuff. So, just north of Augusta are the rapids. You're not going to get a big boat up there.

Anyway, because of the change in the, I guess elevation, and the river, and the way it all, Augusta's just right on that line. It's almost like an anti-snow bubble. You can be watching the radar. I can remember back in my teaching days, when they would be like, "We might have snow, we might not have snow." You'd be watching the radar and it would be like, there was a dome over Augusta, and the snow would just like blew right north of it every time. So, we've not had a good snow or any snow that I've seen in really a few years now. Thanks to us being on the coastal plain.

Melanie Avalon: Does that same thing happen in Memphis? I feel like that's what they always said.

Gin Stephens: Memphis is right there by the Mississippi River. So, I'm not certain. A coastal plain is generally close to a coast, but it's definitely something because-- of course, Memphis is not. But I don't know what that region would actually be. Probably, the Mississippi River basin is probably what they call it. So, the elevation would definitely be a factor there. The Mississippi River basin is also fascinating. I had a lesson that I used to teach when I was a science lab teacher and we were learning about rivers. I think it was maybe fourth graders that I did this lesson with.

If you take a big giant map of the United States, a laminated map and Sharpie markers or something, and you start at the mouth of the Mississippi River right there in New Orleans, and you trace up north you're going north, trace the Mississippi River all the way to its origin, but then you also trace all the tributaries, you're going to the east, you're going to the west. It just shows how much of the United States empties out right there at the mouth of the Mississippi. It's like everything on the side of this Rockies and on this side of the Appalachians, it's like a giant tree. The image that it makes looks like a giant tree and the root is right there at the mouth of the Mississippi.

Melanie Avalon: Wow.

Gin Stephens: I know it's fascinating. I love geography.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's ringing lots of vague bells. I just remember we rarely got snow and they would say it had to do with something about something with the geography.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Certainly, the topography makes a huge difference. The way the mountains keep it away or the change in elevation causes the temperature to do different things. But we're just right on that edge. My brother lives just over an hour away in South Carolina and they're like, "Right there in the snowbelt." So, although can I tell you this? Next Friday, they do have snow in the forecast for us one inch. We'll see if it happens because that can disappear very quickly.

Melanie Avalon: Well, fingers crossed for you. It's such a wonderful feeling to-- I'm literally looking right by the window and I'm just watching the snow.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, it's amazing how just a few degrees make a difference.

Melanie Avalon: It's very exciting for me.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad. Oh, no, snow makes me excited, too. I don't like to be cold unless it's snowing or if I was superhot and now, I'm cold for a minute, then it feels good, but [laughs] anyway, enjoy your snow.

Melanie Avalon: I will. Speaking of cold, I'm using that as my barometer for when I'll know that I'm really on the up and up from COVID. I have not done cryotherapy since getting COVID. I was doing it every single day and I'm just like, "I can't."

Gin Stephens: You just don't feel like being cold?

Melanie Avalon: It was seeming like it might just wipe me out. But today's the first day that I'm like, "I think I could do it except it's a Sunday." So, I probably won't make it in time. That's going to be my barometer. I'm excited to get back in it.

Gin Stephens: Oh, how are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon: I'm feeling so much better. My taste and smell are coming back.

Gin Stephens: I'm glad. That's huge.

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners, join my Facebook group, IF Biohackers. I debated for a while if I was going to do this, if I was going to actually post like what I was taking and what I was doing? Just because it's so polarizing. But I decided to because I think it can help people. So, if you join my Facebook group, you can find the post where I posted everything. I was doing a blend of nutritional support and data supported pharmaceuticals, and then I spoke with the doctor, actually, a doctor that I've had on my show, and he recommended some more nutritional support and pharmaceuticals, and that has really, really helped. So, join my Facebook group.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I'm glad you're healing and getting better. I have had the craziest two weeks. I want you to take a guess. How many podcasts do you think I have recorded in the time between January 1st and January 14th counting the ones that I host and cohost, but also once I've been guests on in 14 days? I don't know. Now, I've probably like, I've made it seem so big that you'll guess something way too big but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: 12.

Gin Stephens: 18.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Wow. That's a lot.

Gin Stephens: I was like, "Why am I so tired?"

Melanie Avalon: It's a lot of talking.

Gin Stephens: It was a lot of talking.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: What's really funny is, I started to think about that, I was like, "Man, that was a lot of talking to them." I'm like, "Wait a minute. I used to be a teacher. I literally talked all day every day." But it was different. It's different when you're standing in front of your class that you see every day and you're just hanging out with them versus you have to be on when you're on a podcast. You have to be on the stage.

Melanie Avalon: Well, and it's like, this show feels more like that compared to where you're with a guest or you're being interviewed.

Gin Stephens: Being on this show, it does not make me feel like I'm on stage anymore. It just feels calm and casual. Also, life lessons is like that. Intermittent Fasting Stories for the most part is like that, although, I still have to be more on than here. Because I'm guiding the conversation, that's different. But when I'm a guest on someone's show, it just feels like a whole different thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, same. I don't know. I feel like I should be more resilient but I don't-- Like, something where I have to show up and be on camera. I don't like to do more than one a week.

Gin Stephens: Oh, one a week? I did three in one day. The first week of January. Three in one day. It just worked out that way and that was a lot. Three hours was a lot. So, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It takes a lot out of me, I don't really like going out more than once a week. I mean I will, but I'd rather not. I can't do more than one thing in a day.

Gin Stephens: It's been hard because I've had many days. Obviously, if you can tell with 18 in 14 days, there were many days where I had two in a day. So, anyway, I'm getting off that. It's calming down. So, that's really good. It's calming down a little bit. I still have some a few busy weeks ahead but I'm like, "Ooh, I'm ready to just take a little break." So, anyway, at least we can take a break today when we're talking together because it's no stress.

Melanie Avalon: Even when I got COVID, I was like, "Well, I rescheduled," because I had two or three episodes for the other show. But this one, I was like, "It's fine." [laughs] Pull it together.

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Melanie Avalon: All right. Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Absolutely, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a question from Kelly and she has a few different questions in here but the subject is: "Research, cellulite and weightlifting." Kelly says, "Hello, I started your podcast two weeks ago and your approach instantly motivated me to try IF. To say I'm a novice is an understatement, and I have over hundred episodes to listen to," if she just started two weeks ago, she has more than-- Oh wait, this is probably an old question. Wow. No, I'm not thinking. Okay. She says, "Believe me when I say that I am really looking forward to this. Keeping my newness in mind, I would like to address the following. First, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU in all caps for addressing authenticity and manipulation in research. I just finished Episode 152. I'm bouncing around the episodes right now. I am an English teacher, teachers unite, Gin, for 11th, 12th and introductory college classes at my local community college.

Too often, my students are lazy researchers and do not value fact checking what they are reading because we have information at our fingertips in today's world, we have become lazy consumers rather than informed questioners. I just really appreciate that you provide a real-life example of why we need to be empowered researchers." Do you want to comment on that at all, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I think that's awesome, Kelly. Thank you for pointing that out and it's so very true. You have to be empowered to question. I've always been a questioner, always, [laughs] my whole entire life from when I was little. Just because people said, "This is what it is," I'm like, "Hmm, how do we know that's for sure?" So, I've always been a questioner and I always will be. Thank you for appreciating that, Kelly.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I could not agree more, especially, like what Kelly was saying. We have so much access now to so much information that you really can fact check things for yourself, and the backlash I've seen though, and I don't know how you feel about this, but [sighs] I feel like there's a backlash where people will say, "You're not qualified to interpret or read scientific studies and information because it requires a certain level of education or profession to read the studies and interpret it." But I just really want to empower people that like, you can do it. You can read things, and learn what's out there, and make your own judgments. True, some things might require a certain level of knowledge to fully understand, but I don't like to see that as a barrier to just listening to what everybody else says about something rather than going to the source material yourself.

Gin Stephens: I've actually found errors in scientific journals. Who am I to be qualified to judge that? Well, I found an error and one that they cited a study, and they said, the study said something, and then I went to that study from the study-- from the one study to another study, and it was the opposite of what they said it said. They interpreted it wrong. I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose. It was an accident, I'm certain but we're all humans and everybody-- Two people can read the exact same thing. Two people that are highly credentialed can read the exact same thing and come away with a completely different interpretation. We see that all the time. So, understanding that there's always been disagreement in the science world.

Melanie Avalon: 100%. And then not the same thing as far as it being technically wrong. We've talked before about how news articles can skew what's actually being said, but just whatever the researchers like, whatever their agenda is, what they choose to focus on in the abstract or the conclusion, you can draw completely different conclusions than what's really being seen and told if you look at the entire data just by-- Actually, this is a really, really good example. We have a girl helping us run our Instagram now and she's incredible and amazing. So, we send her quotes from this show for her to pick out quotes to put onto the Instagram. We had sent her this one a few weeks ago and it was a whole paragraph of what I had said about whether or not you could gain weight on 700 calories. So, she shortened it down.

By shortening it down, it actually changed the meaning completely. It was still a direct quote of what I said but by taking out one sentence, and she didn't realize that this had happened, but it made what I was saying be the complete opposite meaning. So, yeah, but it was really enlightening for me because it just really made me realize even more how you can still literally quote what somebody is saying, but if the context is just ever so slightly off, it can mean something completely different. So, yes. People, do your fact checking for yourself and also, just to further empower you. I feel like there's a vibe now of fact checking and so sources will fact check things. But you also want to make sure you trust the source that's doing the fact checking. So, I don't know. I'm just trying to empower people to think for themselves. Okay.

The rest of Kelly's question, she says, "Now, on to my personal questions. Have you noticed less cellulite from an IF lifestyle? I have struggled with cellulite since I hit puberty. Although, I live an extremely active lifestyle among teaching on my feet all day, teaching dance lessons in the evenings, choreographing school musicals, and going to the gym four to five days a week, I cannot rid myself of the cellulite on my thighs and glutes. Yes, I've tried every remedy out there with little success. Since you're not advocates of the scale, maybe I can measure my success in cellulite, huh-huh?"

Gin Stephens: Can we talk about cellulite before we go on?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: Here's the most important part of this, Kelly. The part where you said you've struggled with cellulite since you hit puberty. To me, that indicates a very genetic form of cellulite. I'm the same exact way. I wish I could tell you, I'm a big proponent of the magic that IF does. Did it solve my cellulite problem? No, it did not and I have also tried every single remedy. In fact, there's one I tried, there was this tool you could buy that you could use it. I think it made it worse, honestly, over time. I think my cellulite is worse now than if I'd never used that remedy truthfully. The thing is, is that, we've just been conditioned by airbrushing and magazines to think that cellulite is something that we should be ashamed of, and we should have got to just wear our shorts and our bathing suits proudly, and have the cellulite because that is how skin looks when you're not airbrushing it. There might be some people who genetically are, we can use the word fortunate, because I think every one of us if we could snap our fingers would prefer to not have it, even though, I'm sitting here saying, we need to not worry about it, it's easier said than done.

If I could snap my fingers and have perfectly smooth, no cellulite, I would do it. But I can't and I recognize that it is just naturally how we're built. So, I am choosing to embrace it in lieu of there being an alternative because there isn't. I can either hide it and feel bad about it or I can just say, you know what, this is the way my legs look, this is the way my mother's legs look, this is the way my grandmother's legs looked, and there's no shame in cellulite. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Melanie Avalon: We've done a few episodes on cellulite in the past. I'll put a link in the show notes. I know there was one where we dive deep into the potential mechanisms.

Gin Stephens: That was you digging deep? [laughs] It was me saying, if you have it, you have it. You're just going to have it. There are people who find that intermittent fasting helps with their cellulite but they probably have different skin architecture than I do.

Melanie Avalon: There's a lot of debate as well about the cause of it. I know for example, people in the PUFA world will say that, PUFAs are the cause of cellulite. A lot people say that's hormonal. It's definitely something that can be very, very stubborn. That is for sure. I think it's actually, probably something and this is something I've talked about before, but if you were to go the topical application route, I've also talked about this a lot in the past, but there's a lot of skin tightening type things that med spas and stuff will do. They can be a little bit pricey, but I do think those are probably more effective.

I think some people can probably address it through fasting, and diet, and stuff like that, but I think probably the most effective and I'll probably talk about this a little bit more in her next thing about exercise. Like I've talked to the past about something called CoolTone, which can work for cellulites. I've started doing something called Emsculpt Neo, which I'm going to talk about in the exercise thing that's been helping a little bit. I do think cellulite is something where doing something topical in combination with diet and fasting is probably the best approach. I actually want to develop a topical cream for cellulite as well.

Gin Stephens: Can I pop one more thing to think about in there?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: Have you looked at the work of Rubens, the painter? I just looked up to see when he was a painter, he was born in 1577 and he died in 1640. He's the guy who painted all the women that have a lot of cellulites back in the 1500s, 1600s there. I'm pretty sure they weren't eating PUFAs. [laughs] I don't know. That's just my thing. Women that he painted in the 1600s were gorgeously full of cellulite. So, I just don't know that we can say, "Oh, it's just the modern world."

Melanie Avalon: So, I wonder if that's because I'm reading right now. I'm still reading Dr. Rick Johnson's book, Nature Wants Us to Be Fat and he talks about the cultural changes in society. Was that during a time when-- I don't know exactly what you're referring to, is that during a time when he painted lots of really overweight women because that was what was associated with beauty due to like the royalty were fat?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure I would say that they were super overweight women. They were just normal. I mean they were curvy I don't know. I think that it was just like he celebrated the woman's body. I mean people just were wearing clothes all the time out in public, so that, I don't know. People certainly weren't wearing bathing suits or in shorts out in public. So, I think that he celebrated the female form. Probably yes, we know there were different periods of time where what was viewed as the ideal body changed and plumper body was more a sign of wealth and prosperity but they had plenty of cellulite is what I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: His book is blowing my mind and I talked about this last week, but he's the one who thinks fructose is the cause of everything. This is so interesting. He thinks the whole insulin hypothesis that it's not about insulin either. The reason low-carb diets work isn't about insulin. He thinks it's all fructose activating the polyol pathway, which creates sorbitol, which actually creates more fructose. I'm on a tangent.

Gin Stephens: I don't understand how you could say that. To me, the whole "insulin hypothesis." We know that high levels of insulin-- insulin is anti-lipolytic. That's not really a question, right?

Melanie Avalon: So, what he says is that, if you remove the ability-- so, he'll do studies on rats and if you take out their ability to metabolize fructose, they can be overfed with fructose and they won't get the metabolic syndrome.

Gin Stephens: Well, okay. See, now, they've lost the ability to metabolize fructose. That's a very strange-- I don't know that that proves that point. Think about like for example, type 1 diabetics, before we understood what type 1 diabetes was. They weren't making insulin. They lost the ability to make insulin, they would die. That's not a normal body state.

Melanie Avalon: I just realized had left out the main thing. So, he thinks the fructose creates uric acid, which damages the mitochondria and basically creates the survival switch state, where the fat cells just want to take in fat and store fat. The reasoning for it is back in the day we'd eat fruit in preparation for hibernation and that would tell our bodies to start storing ahead of time store fat. This is for animals, I guess by the time winter came, you live off your fat stores. He thinks dehydration also sparks it. I can't wait to interview him because it's really interesting to hear him say that about the low carb world. He even says in the book, so, he says that he spoke with Jimmy Moore. Jimmy was saying that he had to cut out all carbs to lose weight. Rick Johnson originally thought that it was just fructose. So, you could have glucose and be fine. But he spoke with Jimmy Moore and Jimmy Moore was saying that he had to cut out all carbs and that didn't make sense to Dr. Johnson, but then they did more research and they realized that, if you eat a ton of glucose, it actually turns into fructose. So, he still thinks it's fructose.

Gin Stephens: I also have not sure that we can look at one guy's example. It's like, "Oh, Jimmy Moore proves this theory." I don’t know. That seems a little strange to me, too.

Melanie Avalon: No, no, no. It wasn't. Jimmy Moore didn't prove the theory. Jimmy Moore was an example of he was questioning how it could just be fructose if Jimmy had also reduced glucose as well. Just the concept. Not like Jimmy specifically. Why am I on the--? Oh, I'm on this tangent because he talks about historically, culturally, we would be in times where to be overweight was seen as the royalty, and the people could afford the food, and people would preferentially-- I should find the examples. He talks about like societies where they would literally put women, the wives of the royalty or whatever would be in rooms and they'd just be fattened up, basically. It's crazy. I just wonder with that picture if that was part of any of that time period or not.

Gin Stephens: Well, certainly. But my point was that, if the theory is, cellulite is related to the modern world and PUFAs, then I think we can say, I know you can go back historically and see that they had cellulite way back then when they didn't have all these toxins.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, yeah, I see. I don't know. I'm not saying it's necessarily PUFAs. I'm saying, there're a lot of theories like some people think it's a seed oil. So, the PUFAs, I bet I should ask him about cellulite. I'm sure he probably thinks it's the sugar.

Gin Stephens: They ate too much fruit. No, I just think it's how some of us are built. I don't think that it's any more complicated than that. Just because I know what happened to me, I didn't change my diet from pre-puberty to post-puberty. I didn't suddenly start eating differently and I had zero cellulite. Went through puberty, bam, there's the cellulite. Obviously, some of that's hormonal but as your body changes, hormones have a big impact on what your skin does as I'm noticing on the other side of menopause.

Melanie Avalon: I do think it's largely hormonal, and for me I didn't have any cellulite at all, and then, I took a medication, I got cellulite after that, which it's empowering in a way. I do think that probably it can be addressed. I just don't know what the answer is. I don't think you're necessarily destined to be that way for the rest of your life. I think if you could find the answers, I think there are answers out there. I just don't know what they are.

Gin Stephens: I feel like if there were answers that we knew of, everyone would already be doing it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think a lot of them are cost prohibitive. So, I was mentioning those different things if you can do at med spas, I think those actually do work. They're very expensive and you have to do them a lot. I do think there are solutions. I just don't know if they're always approachable for everybody.

Gin Stephens: There's one more sentence Kelly said that I want to address. She said that we're not advocates of the scale. I really want to say that, that's not true. I don't weigh. But I did weigh for the whole time I was losing weight and the whole first year because I could handle it, and then all of a sudden, the scale started to mess with my mind and maintenance and I didn't like it anymore. So, I am definitely not an anti-scaler. I believe that the scale has a role in the lives of many, many people. Then, there are other people that it does not have a role in their life. You have to know yourself well enough to know which you are.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Same page. Same, same page.

Gin Stephens: We are. I knew you were, too, but I just wanted to pop that out there because I don't hate the scale. I don't use the scale but I embrace it as a very meaningful tool for a lot of people.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's super important to know your own relationship, how it makes you feel and how it works. That's probably something where you could probably find data to support either side. I do know there been studies on people who weigh daily being more successful, but there are some people just happier not weighing and I think it's really just about finding what works for you, like everything.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. There's definite research that I could find right now that shows that weighing frequently is associated with better weight control for a lot of people. So, that is true.

Melanie Avalon: The question there though is--

Gin Stephens: Cause versus effect.

Melanie Avalon: Is it the type of person that would be weighing every day is the type of person that is really going all in and tackling it and doing it.

Gin Stephens: I actually, I remember my sister and I talking about years and years and years ago. This is way before intermittent fasting. There was some supermodel and I can't remember which one. But I remember my sister had read something. She was in a magazine and her quote was something along the lines of like, she was an older, had been a supermodel, and then this is later, and they're like, "How do you maintain your weight?" She said, whoever it was said, "I get on the scale every day, and if my weight is up, I put on my tightest jeans and I wear them all day." I think that reminded her to not gain weight. But I just skip the scale part and wear my jeans. [laughs] Yeah, I go straight to the honesty pants. I don't need the scale to tell me. My pants always tell me.

Melanie Avalon: That's really funny. I like that. Yeah.

Gin Stephens: All right for honesty pants.

Melanie Avalon: So, okay, rest of Kelly's question. She says, "I am also curious about your exercise schedule. I know in earlier episodes that both of you address that you do not work out but rather try to live actively in your day-to-day activities. Although, I completely support that, I was hoping you would address more on the decisions not to exercise when both of you are concerned about longevity. As a mother to two daughters, I want them to see a woman who values physical strength over the number on the scale. Now, as I just admitted this hasn't helped much with my cellulite, but I don't need to ask the men in my life for help when strength is of a concern. I suppose what I'm really asking is, as independent women, how does exercise manifest in your life and what are your rationales for such manifestations?" This is a deep question about exercise. I think it's something really important to talk about because I definitely, definitely don't want to make it seem like I think we shouldn't exercise.

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Gin Stephens: I highlighted four words in there that puzzled me as to the fact that that's how she interpreted what we say, our decisions not to exercise. Really, I think nothing could be farther from the truth. I haven't made a decision not to exercise. I've made a decision not to do-- I don't go to the gym. I can't say, I do Pilates or I do yoga, or I do whatever but I'm very active. When I go to the beach, I walk several miles a day. Even here around the neighborhood, Chad and I might go for a walk after dinner. That's exercise. But I don't like put on an exercise tape and do it like I used to in the past because I don't enjoy doing that. I clean the house, I have, I don’t know, it's pretty good-sized house. We were going to downsize and we accidentally did the opposite. I clean my own house. We don't have someone who cleans for us. I clean it myself. That's exercise. When I'm on my hands and knees scrubbing a bathtub that's exercise.

My frame of reference would be that being active is what we want and it doesn't have to look like formal exercise unless you love that. But I also have a vibration plate that I stand on, which is good for muscle building. I have a rebounder that I jump on. I would say, I do everyday something that would be considered as exercise if I wanted to formally say, now I'm exercising. But I just don't segment my day like that. I'm like, now, I'm going to jump on the rebounder for a few minutes or now, I'm going to walk around for a while, and go for a walk on the beach. So, I don't think either of us have decided to "not exercise."

Melanie Avalon: Completely. I think one of the most important things is being really active in your life. I think by exercise, I just don't tend to go the gym, and then run on the treadmill for 30 minutes, and then go home or I don't tend to do a lot of exercise classes. But I think that daily movement and activity is so, so important.

Gin Stephens: Like, don't you have a standing desk?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Gin Stephens: That's activity and moving.

Melanie Avalon: So, the chair that I'm on right now, it's a wobble chair, so that you're always having to stabilize. It moves. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. Muscle and longevity is so, so important. It's really interesting speaking about metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance, I'm pretty sure, it's hypothesized if not known. I know I've heard a doctor talking about this before that insulin resistance actually starts at the muscle, which is really, really interesting. But I think muscle being a sink for excess glucose, and then muscle is just correlated to longevity in so many ways. So, like, Gin was saying cleaning our house, I love being active and cleaning, and I wear weights-- As you guys know, I wear weights during the day, all day, every day, not all day, a large portion of the day. So, I'm always stimulating my muscle.

Then I mentioned this earlier in the cellulite question but my new obsession now and I'm really interested by this concept because I have some cognitive dissonance surrounding it that I've realized it's probably a societal thing. But I have started doing a lot of this thing called Emsculpt Neo, which is muscle stimulation. You lay there and it stimulates your muscle. I've talked about it on the show before but it's like when you do your arms, it's the equivalent of 40,000 curls, when you do your abs it's the equivalent of 20,000 crunches, and I've been doing my glutes. I don't know. It's probably like 20,000 lunges.

Gin Stephens: And you go somewhere and do it?

Melanie Avalon: You lay there, it's a machine.

Gin Stephens: But you go somewhere that has the machine is what I mean? You don't have one at your house?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, no.

Gin Stephens: Okay. That was my question.

Melanie Avalon: I don't even know how much that machine costs. What's interesting is, I am finding it so beneficial for building muscle and very, very time effective because a session last 30 minutes, arms last an hour because you have to do biceps and triceps. It feels like a lazy thing to do, you know?

Gin Stephens: Well, that's my vibration plate. [laughs] Sometimes, I might actually hold weights while I'm on the vibration plate. I'm standing there on the vibration plate, watching TV and holding weights at the same time. So, the thing is we don't call ourselves fitness enthusiasts, but we're definitely active people. I can't wait to get back to the beach when it's warmer and kayak. I'm going to kayak all over the place.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's so exciting.

Gin Stephens: I love to kayak. See, that's me. I don't think of I am kayaking because I need to exercise. I think kayaking is a lot of fun. I want to go kayaking or swimming in the ocean is so much exercise, because you're fighting with the waves but it doesn't feel like exercise.

Melanie Avalon: I love just dancing around my room.

Gin Stephens: Me, too. I dance with music when I'm getting ready.

Melanie Avalon: But what's so interesting about that the Emsculpt Neo, so, the effects that I am getting from is so much more than you can get from the gym, especially, when you line up like, the amount of time you would have to spend at the gym, and then on top of that, it actually contracts your muscle way deeper than you consciously can without really any soreness or only little bit. It also works to break up the lactic acid while it's working. It's basically getting what would take possibly months at the gym in just a few sessions. Some of it is very unpleasant. I will say that like painful. But it's just interesting just from a societal cultural thing because I'll lay there like, "Am I being lazy or am I being just really, really efficient?" I can do work-- well, during some of that, I can [unintelligible [00:48:47] arms because you can't hold a phone. The thing I like about it though is, I think it's so, so healthy and it goes back to building muscle. I just think building muscle is so, so important.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. Me, too. I think so, too. That's one reason why the vibration plates has been such an important part of my life and that I use it frequently because I believe it's a great way to maintain muscle mass. I also, what was it? I can't remember. There's something on the tip of my tongue and I forgot what it was. Never mind, ignore me. [laughs] But can we answer her very last question, where she said, "As independent women, how does exercise manifest in your life and what are your rationales for such manifestations?" I think that in a nutshell, I would just say, I consider myself to live an active life and the rationale is that it's fun. I've tried to be the person who took classes at the gym or did the gym equipment and that isn't me.

We even bought our house. I know I've probably talked about our house that we lived in before this one that came with gym equipment in the basement. Do you remember me talking about that? It had a whole gym full of Nautilus equipment because the lady of the house ran like a little fitness studio in the basement. People paid money to come and exercise there. So, I was like, "Man, this is going to be amazing. I'm going to be in great shape." I didn't even like going down to the basement to do it. That's not the way I like to move my body. So, my rationale is, I want to have fun and enjoy what I'm doing. So, I move my body and I'm active every day in a way that feels good to me and is fun.

Melanie Avalon: I will answer that question too. First, I wanted to mention really quick. It's not the same thing as the Emsculpt but when I had Dr. Terry Wahls on my show, she's the doctor that reversed her MS through diet. But we talked a lot about e-stim which is also muscle stimulation, and she talks about how it can reverse a lot of the metabolic issues and things that people have with MS. It's basically the similar concept of stimulating muscle. Actually, NASA is currently studying this technology for the astronauts because they lose muscle mass in space.

Gin Stephens: That's actually where vibration plates came from, NASA.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I didn't know that.

Gin Stephens: Yep. Because with astronauts that is the root of that technology.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's awesome. One last thing. So, I sound like advertisement for Emsculpt. I'm just so obsessed with it. This ties into the cellulite thing. In addition to building muscle, it actually also can address cellulite and destroys fat cells, like, the energy in it can actually breakdown fat cells and they're then processed through the lymph system. What's also really interesting is you get effects in muscle growth 30 days after your last treatment. Your muscle keeps rebuilding that long, which I find really, really interesting, and also, I think that speaks to-- if you can keep growing a month later, it speaks to, clearly muscle growth doesn't necessarily happen just right after you exercise. This goes into the whole thing about fasting and when do you need to eat and muscle growth, but that is all tangent.

To answer the question about the independent woman, so, I'm wondering if she's asking this because she says, I don't need to ask the men in my life for help when strength is of a concern. So, I actually have a lot of thoughts about this. It doesn't bother me. So, I consider myself a very independent woman, a very independent woman. I think it's funny. I need men and they get a little bit confused I think by my independent streak. It doesn't bother me in general.

Gin Stephens: Oh, by the way, husbands that you've been married to since 1991 also get confused by independence streaks. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.

Gin Stephens: So, you were saying it doesn't bother you?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. So, it doesn't bother me though that in general men are stronger than women physically. There are women who are stronger than men, but in general men physically are stronger than women. So, if I can't pick up something and a man could, I don't think that says anything about my role as an independent woman in society.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If I have a jar that's too heavy or not too heavy, but I can't twist the lid off, I'll hand it to Will or to Chad if I can't do it, because they have a little more physical strength than I do.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, that is the perfect example. Yeah, if I can't open a jar, am I subscribing to some patriarchal system by asking a man to open the jar?

Gin Stephens: Literally, I would ask anyone in the room if I couldn't. My friend, Sherry, if she was here, I'd be like, "Can you try to open this? I can't do it." Then we would probably pass it back and forth a few times till one of us "loosened it." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I could talk about this forever. I just think this is such a fascinating topic. So, I think my role to answer her question about an independent woman and how exercise manifests in my life. So to answer that in regards to what she's talking about strength and needing a man for help with physical strength things, I want to be as strong as I can be but if I am not the strength of a man, I don't think that says anything about my role as an independent woman. It doesn't bother me at all.

Gin Stephens: If someone needs to move a washing machine, I'm okay not to be that person.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Me, too.

Gin Stephens: I don't feel like that keeps me from being an independent woman.

Melanie Avalon: The same with other things that might be seen as typically like man jobs versus female jobs. I'm not a car person. So, fixing a car in general, I'm probably going to go to a man to fix that.

Gin Stephens: Or, a mechanic. You're going to go to a mechanic. Well, it could be a female mechanic.

Melanie Avalon: Right. But it doesn't bother me that probably the mechanic is going to be a man. That doesn't bother me.

Gin Stephens: I can do a lot of things that Chad can't do. We complement each other very well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly.

Gin Stephens: In fact, actually pretty much everything. What he's good at is not what I do, what I'm good at is not what he does, and that's I think the beauty of any kind of relationship when you have people that support each other's strengths, whether you are men or women. Like, the two of us in this podcast. The things that you do for the podcast are different than the things I do for the podcast. We complement each other.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Also, on the flip side, though, maybe this speaks more to what Kelly was getting at. I don't want to be like, "Oh, I'm a woman. So, women aren't strong. I'm not going to build muscle." That's the opposite and no.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no. I love to be strong. If the UPS man comes to the door with my Green Chef box and it's really heavy, he's like, "Do you want me to help?" I'm like, "Nope, I got it." I'm just like, boom. I feel super powerful carrying a heavy box.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. Okay. This does happen, though, all the time. All the time. When I go to the grocery store, I wear weights. I don't use a cart ever and I always bring in two really big bags. So, I carry everything around in the bags and I always buy lots of water. So, I'm usually carrying gallons. I carry a ton. Probably, 30% of the time somebody will make a comment like, "Don't you need a cart or do you need me to carry that for you?" I'm like, "No, I'm fine." Then, oftentimes, they'll be like, "Are you sure?" Every time that happens, I always think, "Hmm. If I was a man, I don't think anybody would ask me this."

Gin Stephens: Well, we are in the south and I think that a lot of men for example have been taught. They've been raised to be assistants. I don't feel like that is a bad patriarchal way. I just think it's like the manners were raised on. Like, teaching our sons to open the door for someone. If someone opens the door for me, I am grateful that they were considerate. Even if it's a man, I don't feel like [laughs] I'm like, "Thank you for doing that." I don't know. It's just the way we were raised to be helpful.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I have this whole analysis of the situation in my head every time it happens. Because I think it's kind and yes, maybe, it is happening just because I'm a woman. But in general women are-- It doesn't bother me. But I think people take a lot of implications from it. But I also do feel when it happens, I do feel this need to be like, "No, I'm fine. I can carry it by myself."

Gin Stephens: Then you feel pride there like me. I feel instead of being irritated that someone might think I need help, I feel proud that I'm strong enough to show them what I can do.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel and I know we're running out of time but how do you feel Gin, if you were so talking about that upbringing with the south and everything if you dated somebody, well, back in the day before you're married? [laughs] Who subscribe to those beliefs?

Gin Stephens: Like what beliefs? Like, subscribed about beliefs.

Melanie Avalon: Like opening the door, or paying for women, or things like that?

Gin Stephens: I mean, I like those beliefs.

Melanie Avalon: What if you wanted to pay, what if they would not?

Gin Stephens: No. There's not going to be a time where a person is not going to let me do something. So, if they're like, "No, I will not allow." I'm like, "Okay, goodbye." I would not be in that relationship [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I have experienced that.

Gin Stephens: Uh-huh. No, see, that's different. No. If I want to carry the heavy thing or if I want to pay my own bill, it's fine to offer but I still get to decide. You're not going to tell me what to do. There's the independent woman.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've had that experience.

Gin Stephens: Maybe, I've just had really good role models of strong southern women who stand up for ourselves and don't put up with any kind of-- We know how to handle ourselves when any of that comes along. Do you know what I mean? [laughs] Oh, no. No one's going to be telling me what I can and I can't. [laughs] I can say no with a smile.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I was dating somebody who said that I was never allowed to pay.

Gin Stephens: Okay, no, bye. No, you don't tell me. Uh-huh.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know how I feel about that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I absolutely know how I feel about that. That would not be okay to me. I think someone could say differently. They could say it makes me feel really good to pay for your or whatever. That's a different thing. I'm happy to have you feel good to pay for me but I will not allow you to pay. No, sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I probably feel like I'm giving too many specific details but even you would get really uncomfortable if we went to a restaurant and I was the one who had made the reservation because that was the man's job.

Gin Stephens: Well, see, he's got a lot of issues that man. Whoever he is. He got some issues. [laughs] That is not how we raise our men here in the south, [laughs] uh-huh.

Melanie Avalon: So, I think this is one of my favorite questions. [laughs]

Gin Stephens: No, we raise our-- Well, I'm just going to speak to what I did. I raised my boys to be polite to everyone and to help anybody who looks like they need help. If someone struggling with a lot of stuff, you can open the door for them whether they're a man or a woman. That's just courtesy.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Did we just do one question today?

Gin Stephens: We did but there's one more little while she ended up. The last little part that you could read that you didn't read this.

Melanie Avalon: I can't believe we really did one question.

Gin Stephens: Well, but it was three in one.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it's true. She says, "Thanks so much for taking the time to read this. I deeply admire what you're doing and cannot express enough how motivating you are. I deeply believe that you're helping me better understand my relationship with food and wellness."

Gin Stephens: I love that. That is really how I view myself and my work. My work is to help people rediscover their relationship with food and wellness. We're all on a journey and we're in different places. So, we all want to have a good relationship with food and with our bodies, and like we were talking about with cellulite here. I have a much better relationship with my body, even though, I would pretty much say that if I looked at myself from my 20s, my legs don't look as good as they did back in college, right? But I'm 52 and I'm more likely to wear a bathing suit and shorts now, because as you heal your relationship with food and wellness and your body, you become so much more confident in your own skin.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. I feel super bad because that was a really beautiful way to end and I just remembered that I gave one of the wrong resources. So, I want to just say that really quick. Even though, that was a beautiful way to end the episode. I was saying, CoolTone earlier, Cryoskin is the cellulite thing that's often at med spas. CoolTone is actually similar to Emsculpt Neo, which is the muscle stimulation, so, just to clarify. But yes, back to Gin, everything that she just said exactly. Wonderful vibe. Gin, since we've recorded, so, when we started there wasn't really snow on the ground, it was just snowing. Now, there's snow on the ground.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, I'm so envious. I envy your snow and we're sitting here, and it's all just dreary. The cats aren't even happy. I hope we get some next weekend. Next time we record, I will know and I hope I have some good snow news for you. So, don't forget to ask me. I hope it's good news. Please, just a little bit of snow. Now, what I don't want is the we in 2014, which is the last time we really-- I don't know if it's the last time but that's when we had the famous ice storm. The terrible ice storm of 2014 was so bad. We also had an earthquake. That was the worst week ever.

Melanie Avalon: What? You had an earthquake?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It was 2014. It was such a bad ice storm that Jim Cantore was here. I remember being at school and they're like, " Jim Cantore is on the Riverwalk." I'm like, "Oh, my God, we're all going to die."

Melanie Avalon: Wait, who's Jim Cantore?

Gin Stephens: The guy from the Weather Channel. Wherever he goes where the weather is worst and he's there. He was on our Riverwalk and it was really, really bad. A lot of trees came down and we didn't have power for almost a week. But then actually on February 14th is when we had the earthquake because we still didn't have any power.

Melanie Avalon: On Valentine's Day?

Gin Stephens: Yes, it was a Valentine's Day earthquake and I don't know why. I was awake at 11 PM because I'm never awake at 11 PM but I was, and I remember exactly where I was standing, and the bathroom doorway to the bedroom, the whole room started to shake. I'm like, "What was that?" I pulled up Facebook, and of course, there was still charge in my phone because we would go to Chad's office because they had generators. So, we would go in, we would all charge our stuff up, and then come back home. I was taking showers in the janitor's shower at university. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Did the toilet work?

Gin Stephens: You can flush the toilet without electricity. Yeah, because that that does not rely on electricity. But unfortunately, our hot water heater did rely on electricity. We had a tankless hot water heater that required electricity to work. Here, we have several hot water heaters here in our home, but the one that feeds the master bath is gas. So, I'll be able to get hot water here no matter what. But anyway, it was quite the time people were like, "Did we just have an earthquake?" We were joking like "What was next? The plague of locusts." It was really a tough week. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I remember hearing Noelle Tar talk about the cicada thing in Virginia.

Gin Stephens: The bugs?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. They are locusts.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's what it is.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I think we call them locusts. I remember, when I was a little girl that kind of came out like every 17 years or something. I can remember them being out and they were freaky.

Melanie Avalon: I have one last question that just hit me and it's going to bother me. I'm staring at the snow coming down. I don't buy what they say about no two snowflakes being alike. That doesn't make any sense.

Gin Stephens: Well, they do say it.

Melanie Avalon: Because think about it. When a snowflake is formed, it doesn't know if that's been formed before. Is there some source that's like, "Oh, this has been formed before, we can't make another snowflake?" That's the same. I don't buy that.

Gin Stephens: Well, that is a very interesting thought. I will say, one time I was at school when it started to snow, and here we are in the south where it doesn't snow very often, and we had so much fun. I think I had third graders that day because when I was the gifted teacher, we would often go in and out through the window of my classroom, which was probably illegal. I took the screen out and threw it away when no one was looking, so, we could use that as a door. We'd just climb in and out and do science stuff outside the window. So, I gave all the children black construction paper, and we climbed out the window, and we had magnifying lenses, and we had so much fun catching snowflakes on black construction paper and looking at them. That just brought me that flashback.

They were like, "This is the best school day ever." I'm like, we were the only people out there. I don't know what all those other teachers were doing. But I'm like, "It is snowing. There is a 0% chance we're going to go inside and do work." We're having science outside. It was just fabulous. I hope that they all still remember that I'm sure they do. But everyone out there who has children, that is a really fun activity. Get some black construction paper--

Melanie Avalon: I think, I did that at some point. That's ringing a bell.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But you catch the snowflake right on there. These were big fat snowflakes you could really see. You just use the hand lens and it was really fun. I'd also doubt you that no two are alike. But there's zero way to prove that, unless maybe there is some way of scientific modeling that I don't understand. So, maybe they can, I don't know. But I also share that skepticism.

Melanie Avalon: It just doesn't make sense to me.

Gin Stephens: I'm sure there was one just like this back in, I don't know, anyway.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to Google that after this. But in any case, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode250. You can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon, Gin is @ginstephens, and you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. All right. Well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope. I think that was it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right, talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Gin Stephens: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoy the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

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LINKS

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Jan 23

Episode 249: Headaches, Baby Weight, Appetite Hormones, Fructose, Metabolic Syndrome, Jaw Clenching, Medication Timing, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 249 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

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Listener Q&A: Alexandra - Eating Window

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Listener Q&A: Tyler - Fasting Headaches

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Listener Q&A: Jane - need food with meds

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 249 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life yes for life. Gin and I are huge fans of a company called ButcherBox. As you guys know, it can be hard to get high-quality humanely raised meat that you can trust. ButcherBox is the solution. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, nitrate free sugar free bacon, heritage breed hotdogs, and wild caught seafood, all directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community that is focused on doing what's better for all parties. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying better nourishing meals together. They go to great lengths to assure the highest quality so you can find actual 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef. If you've seen the Netflix documentary, Seaspiracy, you might be aware of fish fraud and problems in the seafood industry. ButcherBox maintains very, very high standards for that and the whole process is so easy. They deliver all of this directly to your door.

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Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products is extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on. And on top of that, their products actually work. That's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 249 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm doing fabulous. Clean(ish) is out, it's out, and I can stop stressing about it, and [gasps] it feels so good.

Melanie Avalon: How did it go, the launch and everything?

Gin Stephens: It went fantastic. It went great. I'm doing a book study in my community more than anything else. Obviously, you care that you've written a book that people will like, but the most important people to me are the people that are in my community. And the people going through the book study, and so far, I've gotten so much positive feedback from the community. People are saying things like, "Well, the part where you wrote about Will really opened my eyes, or my daughter's the same way, or that I understand so much more now, or I thought I was making good choices, and oh, my goodness. Now, I'm realizing I'm not." The one message I wanted to get across with the whole Clean(ish), even the title of it was that perfection is not expected nor required, and it's a process, and that you're in charge at all times. So, the fact that that message really seems to have come through is really important to me.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's so important. I think it's very unique perspective, at least in regards to stuff that is typically published on this. Because normally, when people are putting something out there, it's because they're-- I don't know. They're really wanting you to go really intense all in. So, it's really nice. I think it's very approachable.

Gin Stephens: Well, the thing is, is that, you can't get rid of everything. You just can't. Especially, not all at once and it's a process. Now, the me that is living right here in 2022, if I went back in time to the me from five years ago, I might be overwhelmed at how different my life is now, but I've gotten there over time. Oh my gosh, I had a reminder of why it matters so much and it was yesterday. I rode to the upstate of South Carolina with my sister in her car and I still have a headache. She had one of those air freshener things in there. Oh my God, I got in and I was like, "Oh, I should have driven. Why am I riding this car?" I was like, "We got to put this in the back." But still, she had it in the air vent and I thought putting it in the back might help. No, it made my head hurt, my sinuses still feel inflamed. I was in her car for probably a total of six hours. My sinuses are inflamed, my head's been hurting a little bit the whole time. I just don't do well with those fragrances and now, I understand why. But I was in there long enough that it did make a difference in my bucket. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, every time I get in an Uber that has some sort of smell, I'm like, "Oh, my goodness. How was I doing this for so long?"

Gin Stephens: Now, imagine, you had to ride there for six hours-- six hours in that Uber, it was too long. So, I told her I was like, "I don't know how--" She's like, "I don't even smell it and I don't know how--" I think it would change her life. But people are not always ready. My sister's not ready to hear that. So, I handed her a copy of Clean(ish) before we even went, So, I think that these changes, people don't realize. I will feel it because normally, I don't have any of these kinds of things in my home. I used to. I used to have those, I don't even if you're old enough to remember them, Melanie. There's Bath and Bodyworks plugins that you would plugin and they would--

Melanie Avalon: I did those in college. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not Bath & Bodyworks, it was Target plugins. They're from Target.

Gin Stephens: Well, the Bath & Bodyworks, once were really popular in the late 90s. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Febreze is what I'm thinking of.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, I had it in one of my classrooms. So, I thought it just smelled so nice and now, I'm thinking, "How much did that negatively affect the students in my classroom?" I'm so sorry that I did it but I didn't know. I didn't know any better. But the way I feel after riding in that car all this time, the way my head feels. Really drives home, how much better I normally feel. So, again, if anybody just feels just not themselves and they're like-- they are low level, don't feel fabulous, if you've got a bunch of plugin air freshener stuff, that makes more of a difference than you realize.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. There are alternatives essential oils that might work for people. Oh, and I didn't want to say, listeners, I'm not yet read Clean(ish). I read the books based on the timeline of when people are coming on the show. So, it's in the calendar. It has to be read at a certain time. I'm very excited to read it, though.

Gin Stephens: Well, I hope that you'll love it. But at the end of each chapter, there's a part where people reflect and take action. That's really, the teacher in me coming out because it's taking stock of what you have and what little change could you make today without driving yourself crazy. Because that's really the key. I wasn't ready to hear everything five, 10 years ago. But every little step along the way, lowers your what you're putting into your bucket. Because you're going to ride in the Uber and smell it, and you don't need to freak out, and think you've ruined your health. But having it in your own car is a whole different thing where you're in there all the time. The dose over time does matter.

Melanie Avalon: I did think about this, actually, because the last Uber I got in was very scented and I was thinking that, if I ever had to take a really long Uber somewhere, I would somehow clarify not to have. Because I think there's an option Uber, the comfort option. I don't know if you can put in a note, but I think I would make sure I got one without.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure but.

Melanie Avalon: I think that should be an option.

Gin Stephens: Well, I felt it should but I think it probably, people don't understand it enough to know. I certainly didn't. I was putting them in my classroom and how many children did I make their allergy load worse or even affect their behavior? This is before I had kids. It was the 90s is before I had Will. I stopped all of that once Will, I knew that he reacted to those artificial smells dramatically. We hadn't used them since but the fact that I've had a headache ever since is telling and I started to feel queasy right away also.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you still have a headache?

Gin Stephens: A little bit, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Gin Stephens: I really felt like it inflamed my sinuses. I sound like a big whiny baby but [laughs] it was very important, it reinforced to me, yes, it really, really does make a difference. I knew it already but I didn't whine to my sister the whole time, so, I'm just whining here. I kept my mouth shut the whole time. I said it one time to her and then I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to suck it up and I will always drive from now on."

Melanie Avalon: You probably talk about this in the book but it's interesting how you can be more or less sensitive at different times of your life based on if your own internal bucket is filled up or not. For me, I went through a period, especially, when I had really intense mercury toxicity and everything like that. I could not even step in the aisle in the grocery store that has all the cleaning products and all the things. I would feel sick if I step in that aisle.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I actually did talk about that. It's the whole once your bucket is full, when you put more in it, that's when it overflows. But if your bucket is not full, that's really the whole premise of Clean(ish) is keeping your bucket level as low as you possibly can because you're going to get into an Uber or an elevator with someone who has on way too much cologne, you're going to have those experiences, and your body can handle it better if your bucket is lower. So, that's the whole premise, but it's a lot more detailed than that. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Super excited. So, for listeners, we'll put a link in the show notes to all the ways to get Clean(ish). Congratulations, it's very exciting.

Gin Stephens: Yep. ginstephens.com/clean(ish) is a really good place to go.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Can I share my story with listeners?

Gin Stephens: Please do.

Melanie Avalon: So, listeners, you might already know this because you might have seen it on Instagram. But I got COVID. So, that's been fun. I do have it right now and what's interesting, though, and I again, I posted this on Instagram, but it hasn't been that bad for me, I think I probably got the Omicron variant because my symptoms match it and that's been said to be not as bad as the original or the Delta. I woke up with a little bit of a headache, which I just don't get headaches, and I don't think I would have thought, I don't know. It didn't seem bad enough to be COVID. So, I don't think I would have really thought it was COVID if my Oura ring hadn't pointed out things.

So, I posted this on my Instagram, but so, the first day I had symptoms, you get a readiness score on your Oura ring which includes your heart rate variability, your respiration, your sleep, your body temperature, your resting heart rate, a few other things. It goes up to 100. My score is usually in the 70s or 80s, occasionally 90s. So, it was 60 and I'm just reading it right now and it said, "Pay attention, it said go easy, both your body temperature and resting heart rate are elevated. How are you feeling to help regain balance, give yourself time to recover today?" It actually said that my body temperature had gone up by 0.9 degrees. I think 0.9-- Oh, 0.8 degrees, even though, I wasn't getting a fever on any thermometer. So, I was like, "Oh, well, that's pretty telling." Then the next day, the readiness score dropped from a 60 to a 36, which I have never seen.

Gin Stephens: You are not ready.

Melanie Avalon: I know. I still didn't feel that bad but I was like, "Oh, there is something going on." So, I went and got tested, and I got a positive COVID test, two positive COVID tests because I wanted to double check. Then the next day I got a 28, and then the next day it actually started turning around. So, the next day, I got a 58, and then a 67, and then an 82, and I'm back today I think 81 again. This is the first time that I've-- because I really haven't gotten sick sick, I don't really remember the last time. So, this was the first time getting sick while having the Oura ring. You basically can track the progression of your illness on the ring, it really does know. That's very cool. But it's actually been really, really nice because you have to quarantine and so I cancelled all my appointments and it's like vacation. Like, I got to just work. I love working. Normally on vacation, you're not supposed to work but this isn't real vacation. This is resting vacation. So, I got to just work on stuff. It's been a really nice week.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad you're feeling good. That's the most important thing that it's been nice and mild, and I read something that talked about the Omicron colonizing the nasal passages more so than getting into the lungs, which is actually a positive as far as the severity of our symptoms. So, that doesn't mean that people aren't going to get sick from Omicron obviously and have to be hospitalized or whatever, or that we shouldn't still be cognizant, but you sound a little nasally, like you never have before. So, it sounds like it's right up there. It's in your nasal passages and your body's fighting it off like it's supposed to do.

Melanie Avalon: Yep. I'm really grateful. It's nice. I felt very appreciative of my body during this. I'm like, "Go body."

Gin Stephens: Been able to see it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: So, how about your sense of taste and smell? That's the most fascinating symptom for me.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, ironically, even though, yesterday was the first day that my Oura ring was back to normal, that's when my taste went away, which I did Google it and apparently that's common. It goes away a little bit later but it was so interesting. So, I was eating last night, and I had no taste. I was really reflecting on how much of what we do is habitual because I noticed that I wanted to eat the exact same amount of food, I wanted to eat what I always eat, even though, I couldn't even taste it. I was watching myself eating, it was really mindful moment, especially, because I'm interviewing tomorrow, not in person.

Oh, yeah. Obviously, our interviews are not in person. Dr. Anna, I don't know how you say your last name. I should figure that out for tomorrow. Dr. Anna Lembke, I think she wrote a book called Dopamine Nation about addiction. I'm really excited to talk with her about the concept of addictive behavior but I was reflecting on it while eating, and I could see, I was like, "Oh, we engage in these things that are pleasurable, even when pleasure's not there anymore." I wasn't getting any pleasure from taste, zero. But I was still getting a lot of pleasure from the event of eating the same amount. Does that make sense?

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting. Can you smell?

Melanie Avalon: No.

Gin Stephens: I'll hope it comes back quickly because that's a symptom that for some people sticks around a long time and I know that would be awful. I feel so bad for anyone who that sticks around for.

Melanie Avalon: I was googling it last night and they released a study on people who had lost their taste and smell from it. At one year, it was almost 100 people that they were following and everybody had regained it, except for I think two people. Yeah, most people had regained it sooner rather than later.

Gin Stephens: That's good.

Melanie Avalon: I will answer one question, not medical advice, but people have just been asking a lot of questions on my Instagram. A lot of people have asked, "Did I keep fasting during it?" I did because I wasn't feeling the need to eat any-- I wasn't feeling any different.

Gin Stephens: I always continue to fast when I'm sick unless, I feel like I need to eat. I really, really listen to my body. But the only time I really would feel like I needed to eat when I was sick is if I was nauseous and I felt like I needed food in my stomach to combat nausea. Other than that, I just continue to fast because I feel that gives my body time to heal and repair.

Melanie Avalon: That's what I feel like. Like I said, I definitely ate the same amount of food even though, I wasn't-- I don't know. It's been very, very interesting, the eating experience of this. Eating the same amount, not even knowing if I was that hungry for the same amount and also not tasting it, but still, I don't know. It's very interesting. I did notice that despite not having any tastes, it's like I could still sense in my body when I was getting nourished, even though, I couldn't taste anything. I thought that was really cool. So, for listeners, if you get COVID and you lose your sense of taste, it will be an interesting experiment to watch your relationship with food and yeah, that whole experience, it's been very interesting.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm glad that you're feeling better and fingers crossed that the senses return soon.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right, so to start things off, we have a question from Alexandra and the subject is: "Eating window." Alexandra says, "Hi, Gin and Melanie, for reference. I am 31 years old and 5'5". I weigh 168 pounds and would like to get down to 140 or 135 pounds. I hope this email finds you well. One of my favorite things to do is cook a delicious dinner in a fasted state while listening to your podcast. I can truly say this podcast is one of my absolute favorites. It keeps me motivated and I am fully invested in the Whole Foods guy saga." I do have an update about that, Gin. So, I'll report back.

Gin Stephens: You have an update about it you can share today?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Should I share it now?

Gin Stephens: Share it right now.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. He's gone. It's so sad.

Gin Stephens: Do you know anything about it or just one day, he wasn't there anymore?

Melanie Avalon: No. I know about it. I talked to him. He got an internship somewhere. So, he's no longer working there. So, I gave him a copy of my book as a going away present.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, sad face. But yes, I wish him the best wherever he is at his internship. Okay. Oh, actually, though I will say, so his internship-- I doubt he'll be listening to this. So, his internship is for engineering. We had a really nice conversation about engineering.

Gin Stephens: Oh, is he a Georgia Tech guy?

Melanie Avalon: No. Well, I don't know.

Gin Stephens: Well, if he's been in Atlanta and he's an engineer, that's Georgia Tech. So, anyway, I bet he is.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. it's a good question. I would have asked if he was still at the store.

Gin Stephens: Because it's the best engineering school in the United States and it's right there in Atlanta, and he's got an engineering internship.

Melanie Avalon: He's interning at a company.

Gin Stephens: Right. Exactly. Yeah, that's what they do.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think he's in school right now. Regardless, I got very excited because have I expressed to you what is one of my ongoing fears/concerns if I think about it, so, I just don't think about it.

Gin Stephens: I don't know what it is. I don't know if you've expressed it. [laughs] Tell me what it is and I'll tell you if you have.

Melanie Avalon: I have an ongoing fear/concern if I think about it about structure support-

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, no. You've never shared that.

Melanie Avalon: -in buildings. If I start thinking about roofs or I'm in an apartment, and there are apartment buildings above me, it really stresses me out. So, I just don't think about it. I got so excited because I got to ask him all my questions about structural support of roofs.

Gin Stephens: Like structure failure?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because that's what he said he wants to do and I was like, "Oh, my goodness, let me ask you questions." [giggles] Because I was like, "How did buildings not just collapse and how there've been buildings around for so long?" It just bothers me. And then I had never thought about this, Gin. Have you ever thought about that there are buildings from forever ago and they're still here? Did you know they've been checking them since they were built? That blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: That doesn't surprise me but I know, I'll often see, we have a house here in the United States that's from 1920, and you're like, "Man, that's old." You're like, "Yeah, over there." The UK, they're laughing at us with our old 1920s buildings because our building has been here since 1407.

Melanie Avalon: But did you ever think about-- they probably ever since 1407 had a building inspector come and check it.

Gin Stephens: It also makes me feel everything is fixable. There's no house that's beyond repair, because the ones from 1407 are still around, and they've just been able to keep them going.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that just really blew my mind.

Gin Stephens: I know there are buildings that are beyond repair. But my point being that, if it looks like you could probably fix it, I'm sure you can.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I walked away feeling a lot better about my fear I have. That was a tangent. In any case, back to Alexandra's question. She says, "So, my question, I have been doing IF on and off since 2019 because I was pregnant with my second baby, and then breastfeeding, I had to take a solid break. Losing my baby weight after my second baby with IF compared to losing it after my first with IF has been different. The baby weight the second time around has been harder to lose. Just for reference, I really struggle when I am pregnant and I gained a good 60 plus pounds. I'm constantly hungry, nauseous, and basically, just in survival mode." Survival mode sparked a memory for me. I'm going to circle back to that. She says, "Slowly but surely, I'm losing the weight, maybe about 0.9 pounds a week or a bit less. Not kidding, it never averages out to one pound.

But then depending on what's going on, I will have a week when I go up a bit or I don't lose any weight. As Gin always says, tweak it till it works. I've been doing just that. Tweaking and tweaking away and I discovered that if I close my window around six or seven with a nice dinner and maybe a snack to open my window that my weight has really started to drop. But I am confused about is the amount I'm eating has really not changed. Before doing this, I would open my window with a nice homemade dinner and have some dark chocolate and crackers around 8:30 PM when I finally got my toddler in bed. But I can't figure out is why closing my window at six or seven would make such a difference in my weight loss. I'm writing to you about it because I'm upset, ha-ha as I like to have my evening snack. Perhaps, I will just need to do this as I am working to lose these last 25 or so pounds, but I was curious what your take would be on this matter. I just can't see how the time in which I eat but not the volume could make such a difference, wishing you," oh, this must have been in Christmas because she wished us an amazing Christmas season, Allie. Oh, I've been calling her Alexandra, but her name.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's her official name.

Melanie Avalon: She goes by Allie.

Gin Stephens: Well, Allie, that's a great question and I'm going to 100% tell you one thing that was true for my body. The baby weight the second time around was harder to lose. I don't know why but it absolutely was. I don't know. There're so many changes that go on but when I had Cal, I still remember exactly how much I weighed. I remember being like 123 pounds when I found that I was pregnant with Cal, and then I got up to a high of 163, and then I wore my same jeans till like five months into the pregnancy, and then I just had to do that rubber band trick where you'd take a rubber band and you hook it around the button and then you go through the little loop and then put it. They probably have better tools for that now. You can actually buy them but I used the rubber band that kept my jeans go in for probably till six months in. And then I barely had to wear maternity clothes, it felt like for that one. Oh, then I was back in my jeans, I swear a week after Cal was born. That's one of those, my body bounced back, right?

I wasn't super young. I was in my upper 20s at the time and then with Will, they're 18 months apart. It's like the minute the pregnancy test was positive, my abdomen went bloop [laughs] and I was already in maternity clothes right away. More than most of the time and I got up into the-- It was either high 180s, low 190s, like I didn't even want to tell Chad how much I weighed at that point. And then after I had Will, my body did not bounce right back. I thought my body would and it didn't. I remember sitting around 163 and I'm like, "That's where my body settled in." I was like, "Gosh, that was my high weight when I was pregnant with Cal was 163" and here I am. I'm just weighing 163 and it's normal now. It was hard. That's when I went down the diet pill rabbit hole that was right after that and long story there. But the thing is that, for whatever reason, my body really had that same exact situation as you're describing. It was harder to lose the weight after baby two.

Now, when we're getting into your weight finally starting to drop, there are two things that could be in mind here. One, your weight was just about ready to be start to drop anyway and it was a coincidence that it happened to be when you've shifted your window. That could be it, I don't know. Also, though it might have to do just with water weights. I'm not sure if you just-- Let's say there're two scenarios. Maybe whether your weight suddenly had a sudden drop, and then it's kept going down at your same pace or has the rate of weight loss increased, that would be what I would like to know. Because if you had been losing 0.9 a week, and then you switched your window, and then it had a little whoosh, but the 0.9 a week from that whoosh has continued, then the timing probably just meant that maybe you weren't retaining as much water later on because it's been longer since you ate. That could cause your weight to be lower, if that makes sense. The amount of time since you last ate because our bodies retain water to deal with the food, and when you have more food in your system, you're retaining more water to manage it, and then the food's working its way out, you drop the water.

If your rate of loss has actually increased and before it was 0.9 or less and now it's more, then it could just be your body was ready to do that or it could be that that really is a better window for your body for whatever the reason might be. So, keep experimenting with it and see, because theoretically you're right that if all you've done is change the time, but it's the exact same amount, and it's not like you've changed it a ton. Closing it at six or seven versus closing it at 8:30, it doesn't seem like a giant difference that it would physiologically change the workings of your body, right, Melanie? What do you think about that?

Melanie Avalon: I have two concepts that might be going on and one speaks to what you just said. So, one, and I should have timed this question differently because I haven't posted this blog post yet, but I'm actually glad we're doing this because this is just going to force me to post it. I've been working on a blog post for months, months, I tell you about really looking at what did the study say about timing of eating and its effect on weight loss, particularly, things like late night eating and stuff like that. But the takeaway, it's such an epic blog post. So, I'm going to try to post it this week actually. I'll make the link to it regardless. So, even if it's not up when this comes out, but hopefully it will be. I'll make the link for it melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming. The takeaway from it was that, there are a lot of hormones involved in us eating, and us burning fat, and not burning fat, and there's just so many hormones. There's insulin, there's ghrelin, there's leptin, there's norepinephrine, there's cortisol, there's so many hormones, and they're all on rhythms. How we eat interacts with that and it can affect our weight.

The problem is that, it's not black and white. People like to say, "Oh, if you eat, after a certain time, it becomes fat for everybody all the time." That's just not what I saw, especially, if you're doing things like intermittent fasting, and you're only eating in a certain window. The takeaway that I took from it is that we're all very individual and I do think some people are eating at different times for given person. So, I'm not comparing between people. I'm comparing within the same person. I think for a given person, it is very possible that if they have a window at a certain time, they might lose or gain a different amount of weight than if they have a consistent window at a different time. I don't think it's standard between people like I just said. So, I don't think you can say, if this person eats at this time and this other person eats at this time, they're going to gain or lose the same amount of weight. I think it's individual. The reason I'm saying all that is that, I actually do think that with your individual biology, it might be that eating, even though, Gin did point out that it's not that big of a difference when you're changing it. The timeline of those hormones is on a rhythm where I think it could be affected by something like this.

Gin Stephens: Or, not. You think an hour and a half would really make that much difference?

Melanie Avalon: I think it could. I'm not saying that it is but if it's a consistent change and if it is working ever so slightly better for your body with all those hormones, I think it could make a difference. I don't know if that's what's happening but I think it could be. If that is what's happening, I don't think it's like we'd be able to point to-- I couldn't say which hormones it is. I just think it could be a thing. Something that could also be a thing, so, that was option number one. Option number two is, she says the only thing she's changing is the timing, but the situation that she gave us, she's eating differently as well. She says that when she closes at six or seven, she maybe starts with a snack and has a nice dinner.

Gin Stephens: I had that same thought Melanie that you're saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But when she closes at 8:30, she starts with a dinner and ends with a snack. So, she says what the snack is on the 8:30 but not on the six or seven. Small nuances but you actually might be eating more.

Gin Stephens: It might be different.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's what it sounds like. So, it could be a combination of all that. It could be that you are a little bit better when you eat. By better, I mean, hormonally, for whatever reason you don't gain as much weight when the window is a little bit earlier. Then on top of that, maybe-- oh and there's something else to point out. So, it could be that hormonally when you eat earlier, your hunger driving hormone. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be the hormones that are determining if you store fat or not. It could be the hormones regulating appetite and it could be that when you eat a little bit earlier, you get fuller faster or you're not as hungry, little things can be different that are resulting in you actually eating less when you eat earlier. I do think with what is happening if it's not water weight like Gin said, which it could be that as well. But if it actually is, different weight gain or loss, then I would guess what you're eating is actually changing, even though, you think it's not the amount of food.

Gin Stephens: I wonder if the question would be, has the rate increased week to week? If she was losing 0.3 a week and now, she's losing 0.9 a week average, then the rate of weight loss has increased. But if she had a whoosh in there at some point, but the rate has stayed the same, then actually, it hasn't made her lose weight faster if that makes sense. Because sometimes we just have a whoosh, our weight will just drop a few pounds, but overall, your rate stays the same week to week. That's a question that would be interesting to know. But really, it doesn't matter. You just keep doing what feels like it's working. Use that data to test different things and see what happens. It's a study of one. So, maybe now, try the old way that you felt like you'd liked a little bit better, see what happens. If you have a reverse whoosh but the rate stays the same, if you put on a few pounds, pop back up. But is then your rate is the same as it was the rate of loss, then that really isn't just indicating more fat loss or less fat loss. It just your weight pops up a little bit and then your rate of loss stays the same. That would indicate it's more likely water weight is what I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's a really, really great point. I will say, when I was reading the studies for that blog post, oh, my goodness, I read so many studies, and they were so long, and it was really interesting because some of them, I mean, most of them were really in depth but there was probably one or two where the researchers were so clearly approaching the subject matter with an agenda of finding the problems with late night eating that they would point out because it would have so much data on these different hormones at different times, and they would point out things that would be in complete contradiction to other data in the study but only when it was supporting their thesis. It was very frustrating. So, I didn't mean for my blog post to get so in the weeds, but I was like, "I just have to really point out what they're doing in these studies," because this is how information I think it's-- I don't know. it gets put out there with an agenda and then people don't get the full story. So, I'll be curious to see what listeners think about it. Two other really quick things.

The concept of harder to lose the weight the second time around with the baby weight, definitely check out my interview with Joel Greene, who wrote The Immunity Code, I think is his book and he's the one I've talked about in the show before. He's the one that talks about why it's actually harder every time you lose weight to lose weight again. His theory which he supports with scientific data is that, every time you lose and gain weight, it affects the structure of fat cells, which is called the extracellular matrix ECM. So, it's basically like wearing clothes. Oh, this is a good analogy because Gin, you're talking about your clothes, like if your fat cell has clothes and every time you gain weight, you have to make the clothes bigger, and then basically how easy it is to shrink back down that ECM versus just it's easier just to keep it filled rather than taking in your clothes. Your body would rather just keep the weight rather than go in and fix that extracellular matrix. Go in and basically alter your clothes is a very energy heavy process that the body does not really like to do. Every time it has to do it, it gets stiffer and stiffer. He calls it the stiffening of the ECM. So, it's a really cool explanation for why gaining weight and losing, and gaining weight losing gets harder and harder every time.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, my body was like, "All right, we're just going to stick around right here." [laughs]. I don't even think I really hardly even tried after Cal. My body just bounced right back but that second time, there was no bouncing. I didn't bounce all the way back down to 123. So, I did not. But I bounced back down to what was a good weight for me. I also wasn't really as much-- back in that time, I just didn't stress about it as much. I don't know. It got harder and harder over time and then that number became more and more important.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Another thing and I need to finish reading the book because I haven't. I'm so excited because I just started reading it. Oh, this book is like a cliffhanger. I'm going to interview, have you heard of Rick Johnson, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure.

Melanie Avalon: He wrote a book called The Fat Switch. He's probably the authority on fructose, probably. He's probably done the most research on fructose.

Gin Stephens: I might have read that a long time ago. I feel like I might have. Did that book come out in maybe 2016? Was it around then?

Melanie Avalon: It was a while ago.

Gin Stephens: I remember reading a book about fructose a long time ago, maybe, 2015.

Melanie Avalon: It came out in 2013.

Gin Stephens: That sounds right about when I might have been reading it.

Melanie Avalon: 2012.

Gin Stephens: They talk about animals that eat a lot of fructose?

Melanie Avalon: Probably. I'm reading his new book. The cover of it is these two silhouettes of a woman.

Gin Stephens: The Fat Switch, just I'm going to look it up on Amazon and then I'll know, because it will tell me because Amazon knows everything I've ever bought. But that doesn't mean I saw it on Amazon or read it on Amazon. I didn't buy the audiobook, I didn't buy the hardcover. Melanie, this is hilarious. I purchased it on April 18th, 2016. [laughs] Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, I knew when I read it. I remember. So funny. You know what? After I had read it was, "Okay, this puts it all in perfect perspective." It was right after I had read The Obesity Code because The Obesity Code came out in March of 2016. So, I was going down that rabbit hole at that time. That was what I was learning about. So funny.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited because he's been on Peter Attia's podcast a lot and Peter literally calls him 'the number one fructose authority.' So, I'd had The Fat Switch in my lineup to read, and then his people came to me for his new book, which is called Nature Wants Us to Be Fat. It's not out yet. The subtitle is The Surprising Science Behind Why We Gain Weight and How We Can Prevent and Reverse it. I was so excited. I was like, "Oh, my goodness," because I've been dying to interview him. So, I am interviewing him in a little bit over a month, I think. According to my Kindle, I'm 21% of the way through his book, but he is making the argument thus far. I don't know how it's going to materialize for the rest of the book. But he's making the argument. He calls it the survival switch, which is I said there was a key word in that question that reminded me of something. He talks about how metabolic syndrome seems like we've switched on this survival switch, which is basically what animals do when they go into hibernation and/or migration. So, their body becomes very insulin resistant, they get abdominal obesity, they store fat, they get high triglycerides. So, yeah, he's making the case that basically it's our bodies hibernating.

Gin Stephens: That's exactly, I remember he talked a lot about animals in that book that I read. Because remember that was what I thought I remembered something about how the animals like really, really-- when they're trying to gain the weight, they eat a lot of fruit or something. That's what I think I remember from the book. [laughs] I remember that. I had a friend that was struggling and she was eating a lot of fruit. I think that's one of the reasons I might have read it. I'm like, "You got to read this book." I remember that. I'm like, "I know you're eating a lot of fruit. Read this book." [laughs] He is not a fan.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm obsessed with it because context dependent, I mean, I eat a super high fruit diet. So, I'm really excited. I have so many questions for him.

Gin Stephens: I have a theory that it has to do with maybe your liver health. If your liver is super unhealthy, maybe a high fructose diet might be more fat promoting than if you've got a really healthy liver.

Melanie Avalon: I think so as well. I think the context is so important. I think fructose in the context of high fat diet is probably pretty problematic. But in the context of what I do, which is high protein, high fruit, low fat, I really want to talk to him about that. Oh, but he talked about the hummingbird. This is what I read last night and he might talk about this in the first book. Did you know that the hummingbird every day eats four times its amount of its body weight and nectar, and it gains so much fat, and it gets a fatty liver by the end of the day, and it's basically diabetic by the end of the day, and then overnight it burns it all off, and then it's back to normal?

Gin Stephens: I do think I remember reading that the hummingbird had the highest metabolic rate, it has a really high metabolic rate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The equivalent though, I think he said, it's blood sugar at the end of the day is the equivalent of 700 for us. Then it burns it all off because its metabolism is so fast and it wakes up lean and not diabetic, and then it gains the weight all again. Isn't that crazy? I'm really enjoying this book. So, yeah. I'm really curious to see what he says about humans being in this survival state, this hibernation mode. I want to ask him though if hibernating animals have high blood pressure, because that's one of the other things about metabolic syndrome. So, that was a tangent.

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to the next question?

Gin Stephens: We have a question from Tyler and the subject is: "Fasting headaches." Tyler says, "Hello, Melanie and Gin, I have been intermittent fasting for about eight months now using the 16:8 method. I have lost roughly 25 pounds thanks to intermittent fasting. I have an issue though but I don't know if it has to do with fasting or not. I have tension headaches almost every single day. They started sometime around when I started fasting. They do not go away when I break my fast. Could this possibly have anything to do with fasting? I have been to plenty of doctor appointments with no results and figuring it out. Thank you."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Tyler, thank you so much for your question. So, headaches. Yeah, it was so interesting because like I mentioned, I was getting a headache with COVID and I used to get headaches growing up, it was just normal to get headaches. Now, I never get headaches unless something's up, like my current situation.

Gin Stephens: Same thing. I never do unless it's something.

Melanie Avalon: Did you used to get them?

Gin Stephens: I used to get more hormonally-- I would get monthly headaches at some point. I don't know. I would get them every now and then. I remember more in my late teens, very early 20s than later.

Melanie Avalon: It's just so interesting because I'm sure we're growing up, it's like, "Oh, if you get a headache, take an Advil." I never really thought about it. It just was a thing. I didn't question like, "Why am I getting a headache?" So, it just seemed like a thing that happens.

Gin Stephens: I did notice even at my late teens that it was awful and hormonal for me. I made that connection.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, interesting. Okay, yeah. So, headaches. There are a lot of potential causes for headaches, and especially if you've been getting them Tyler, you've probably been going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out all the causes. If it is related to fasting, the thing I think that it could be for anybody in general would possibly be electrolytes. So, I never experienced issues with headaches, and electrolytes, and fasting. But especially since we've been partnering with LMNT, they make electrolyte supplements that are completely free of problematic additives, they're developed in part by Robb Wolf, they have an unflavored one that is fasting friendly, you could take it during your fast. I have seen so many people say that their headaches were gone when they started using electrolytes. So, there could be other things related to fasting that could cause that, but I think if it was something related to the fasting that it might be that. So, that might be something to try.

You can get a free sampler pack at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast if you want to try that out. If it's not that, I'm sorry, I don't know what it is, but there are a lot of things you could definitely look at. It could be related to what you're eating, it could be food sensitivities, I doubt it. But that could be a way that'd be related to fasting and that maybe if it was something that you're eating, that's a problem. Maybe having more of it in a concentrated form in a shorter eating window could be causing an issue. Whereas before, you didn't really notice because it was spread out. I don't think that's what's going on but that could be. Other things that you could look at just in general, blue light exposure. So, a lot of people find that using blue light blocking glasses, especially, if they're staring at computer screens all day can really help with their headaches. Trying to think what else. Do you have suggestions, Gin?

Gin Stephens: I have two ideas here. I would experiment to see with your fasting. I might would take-- if you feel it's related to fasting, I might would say, "You know what? I'm going to not fast for this week and I want to see if my headaches go away." If the headaches go away, then you can say, "All right, it is definitely something to do with the fasting." Because there are some things that can cause headaches that are related to fasting. One would be something about your blood sugar response. There are certain people who get headaches after opening their eating window, you can find articles about that, eating-related headaches. That's the thing that I've seen. I wouldn't know this if I hadn't been in those communities for so long where people have all the problems and we talk about them. But here is a thing that does happen and the fact that Tyler's had tension headaches, it made me go ding, ding, ding. If you feel they're tension headaches, you can actually get tension headaches if you're doing any kind of jaw clenching.

I have heard through the community, this is not something that you hear all the time, but sometimes, ketosis can make people clench their jaw. If you Google it, you can find that something they talk about in the keto community, jaw clenching and being in ketosis. So, that is something that could be happening. If you feel you're clenching your jaw when you're in ketosis, then perhaps that's causing your headaches. But again, I would experiment to see if it had to do with fasting by taking a few days off to a week and see if your headaches go away. Again, that could still be, it might be ketosis, it might be what you're eating, experiment with what you're eating if you have your blood sugar doing some wacky things, that could be related to the headaches. But you're just going to have to experiment and see. Have you ever heard that before about clenching your jaw with ketosis?

Melanie Avalon: I haven't but I was thinking about it and that completely makes sense. Because we know that with fasting or keto that it can upregulate stress hormones in general. So, I can see how it would have that effect. I actually do that.

Gin Stephens: 16:8 is a pretty gentle fasting approach. So, I only mentioned that just because it's a possibility. If I were doing 16:8, I would not be getting deep enough into ketosis to have any jaw clenching. But it's something to keep in mind because it could definitely happen in an eight-hour window if you eat lightly and have a lot of activity.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder how much it has to be ketosis or just the stress hormone upregulation potential from fasting.

Gin Stephens: Well, it's something you hear in the keto community more so than the fasting community, which is why I believe it's linked to ketosis. Because not everyone in the keto community is of course fasting.

Melanie Avalon: True. That's been a lifelong-- not lifelong, it's been since 2012, long struggle for me, like TMJ and jaw clenching and--

Gin Stephens: Oh, really?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Ever since I had my wisdom teeth out.

Gin Stephens: When did you start fasting?

Melanie Avalon: 2010.

Gin Stephens: Well, I wonder if there's a connection with ketosis and jaw clenching.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think so, because it started from when I had my wisdom teeth out. I'd been fasting for two years already and didn't have any issues, and then I had my wisdom teeth out, and then it just--

Gin Stephens: Not everybody who clenches their jaw has this problem. My grandmother had a real problem with clenching her teeth and grinding her teeth, and she didn't fast. So, TMJ definitely could be unrelated to fasting. That's why I recommended that Tyler experiment with taking a week off of fasting and seeing that would really make it clear. If the headaches completely go away, then okay, there's something going on related to the fasting.

Melanie Avalon: And also, try the electrolytes as well because I've just seen that helps so many people. So, anything else?

Gin Stephens: I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: Okie-dokie.

Gin Stephens: I think we have time to answer one more question.

Melanie Avalon: I think so. So, quick question from Jane. The subject is: "Need food with meds" and Jane says, "Hi, ladies, my sisters and I are interested in an IF challenge, but I take meds first thing in the morning with a banana in order to not get nauseous. There is no way I can't do that. How much will that screw me up if I'm going to attempt the 16:8, which is 8 PM to noon fast, noon to eight eat? Is there something better than a banana I could eat?"

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you, Jane, and the answer is 100% yes. I would not choose a banana. But let me tell you this. [laughs] I want you to first explore the idea of having to take your meds first thing in the morning. I am not a doctor or a pharmacist, but I recommend probably the pharmacist is who I would talk to about this, because they're the ones who are trained even more so than possibly your doctor, probably more so than your doctor. They're the ones trained in what meds need to be taken when. So, just because you've been told to take it first thing in the morning that doesn't mean that you absolutely have to take it first thing in the morning. So, that's why, I wouldn't change it up yourself without talking to your pharmacist. But I 100% for every person that's taking medicine would recommend that you talk to your pharmacist about timing it because of your fasting.

In this day and age with how many people are doing intermittent fasting and what we know about the benefits, I would think that every pharmacist would be able to tell you, how best to take your medicine structured around your fast. Because there are some medications that you 100% don't want to take and then fast for a while, because it could have negative effects on your blood sugar, for example. So, you really want to say, "Okay, I'm doing intermittent fasting or I'm about to start intermittent fasting, I would prefer to not have to eat with this medicine, because obviously eating breaks the fast. So, can you help me tie my medication to go with the fasting approach I'd like to?" You might be surprised that might say, "Oh, yeah, there's no reason you can't just take your medicine with your first meal at noon." That might be absolutely fine. So, just because it's always been first thing in the morning, it doesn't mean it has to be first thing in the morning. So, have that conversation.

Now if you do have to eat, yes, it does break a fast. But I would choose something that's going to have a smaller insulin response, something like higher fat. You definitely don't want to have something high carb. But something that's going to be more of a blip to go along with it. But personally, I would not do well having to have a little bit of anything. Because once I have something to eat even if it's high fat, even if it's just a little bit, then I would be struggling. It would be harder for me to fast. But people do maybe a tablespoon full of heavy cream or something. It helps the medicine not affect your stomach in a negative way. Or, Jason Fung suggested in his book, like a small amount of leafy greens. They're going to have less of an effect. But you really might not need to take it at that time, even though, you've always taken it at that time.

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was great. It reminded me of, I was just listening to David Sinclair on Huberman.

Gin Stephens: Oh, my God, that's so funny. Because yesterday while I was at brunch, when I was with my sister right in the car, we went and met a bunch of relatives in Clemson, South Carolina, and the waiter was, I don't know how he got on the subject of intermittent fasting but he just said he had listened to Sinclair on the Huberman Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: I swear everybody has listened to that episode.

Gin Stephens: The waiter had listened to it. So, I pointed him to your Biohacking Podcast. I thought he would like yours a lot. He was interested in some of the same kind of things that you're interested in. He's young, a young waiter guy, and I was like, "You got to find Melanie." But he's interested in fasting. So, I said, "First go to Intermittent Fasting Podcast." Because I was like, "You should listen to David Sinclair from Melanie's podcast, too." Because he was asking me about that, what's that NAD thing?

Melanie Avalon: NAD?

Gin Stephens: Yeah, whatever. I don't know much about it. But he was asking me about that. I'm like, "All right, you got to go somewhere else to hear that information." But I said, "Look for Intermittent Fasting Podcast, find Melanie," because it's really easy to remember Intermittent Fasting Podcast, but harder to remember The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. He can find you from finding us. So, anyway, so funny.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Really quick story about that. Well, I'm friends with David Sinclair's agent, who is also Andrew Huberman's agent and Andy Huberman, his podcast is one of the top podcasts on podcasts. He was on Rogan and all this stuff. Before any of that, I remember his agent was like, "You got to have on this guy, he's going to be huge," and it was him. We never locked it down and I forgot about it because he didn't have a book. So, he wasn't on my radar. Now, I'm like, "Oh, I really should have locked that down," because now, I reached out recently to his agent and I was like, "Can you please come on?" He's like-- Oh, and now he's completely booked up because he has his show, missed out on that one. Oh, so David Sinclair went on his show and talked about how he takes his NMN, and maybe some other things that he has to take with a fat. So, he does daily intermittent fasting but he does take some supplements.

He used to take it with a little bit of yogurt every morning. That's what I think he said when I interviewed him. But now, apparently, he does it with olive oil. So, he talks about it in that episode. He said he does like a little bit of olive oil with-- He says, it tastes like an Italian salad dressing. That's what he does because the supplements that he takes actually requires fat with them and he said, he doesn't-- this would not be in line with what we talk about with a clean fast, but he said he doesn't really consider it breaking his fast, being just pure fat and not changing any of the signaling there. So, I'm not saying that you can have fat and that doesn't break your fast. But I'm saying if you do have to take a little bit of medication with something, maybe something then to try would be-- if you are able to take it with just a little bit of olive oil or something like that.

Gin Stephens: And also, be aware that if you take oil on an empty stomach, it can have a laxative effect. Especially, MCT oil. [laughs] Ask me how I know. Anyway, yes, good times.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode249. You can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, Gin is @ginstephens, I am @melanieavalon. We'll put links in the show notes to Clean(ish). Again. Congratulations, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And yeah, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: Nope, I don't think so.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice. We're not doctors. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, theme music by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 18

Episode 248: SIBO, Antibiotics, Insulin, Wine, Alcohol Metabolism, Fatty Liver, Whole Foods Diet, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

The Melanie Avalon Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

Welcome to Episode 248 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A Sample Pack For Only The Price Of Shipping!! Learn All About Electrolytes From Our Great Interview With Robb Wolf!

Go To audible.com/ifpodcast Or Text IFPODCAST To 500500 For A 30 Day Free Trial, Including A Free Audiobook!

Go To thebeautyandthebroth.com To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon! Learn about the wonderful benefits of bone broth by listening to this episode with the creator melissa Boloña!

Listener Q&A: Keri - Seeking Patience and Answers. My Saga and road to IF

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

The Delay, Don't Deny Community

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/avalonx Or Head Straight Over To Avalonx.Us To Place Your Order Now!

This Naked Mind: Control Alcohol, Find Freedom, Discover Happiness, and Change Your Life

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Episode 125: Roxi

Episode 50: Renee and Joel

Episode 170: Kristi Osborn

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 248 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free electrolyte supplements, some of which are clean, fast approved, all developed by none other than Robb Wolf. Have you been struggling to feel good with low carb, paleo, keto, or fasting? Have you heard of something called the keto flu? Here's the thing. The keto flu is not actually a condition. Nope. Keto flu just refers to a bundle of symptoms. Headaches, fatigue, muscle cramps, and insomnia that people experience in the early stages of keto dieting. Here's what's going on.

When you eat a low-carb diet, your insulin levels drop. Low insulin in turn lowers the production of the hormone aldosterone. Now aldosterone is made in the kidneys and it helps you retain sodium. So, low aldosterone on a keto diet makes you lose sodium at a rapid rate. Even if you are consciously consuming electrolytes, you might not be getting enough. In particular, you need electrolytes, especially, sodium and potassium, in order for nerve impulses to properly fire. Robb Wolf, who as you guys know is my hero in the holistic health world worked with the guys at Ketogains to get the exact formulation for electrolyte supplements to formulate LMNT Recharge, so you can maintain ketosis and feel your best. LMNT Recharge has no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no junk. They're used by three Navy SEALs teams. They are the official hydration partner to Team USA weightlifting, they're used by multiple NFL teams, and so much more.

Guess what? We worked out an exclusive deal for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast listeners only. Guys, this is huge. They weren't going to do a deal, I begged them, here we are. You can get a free LMNT sampler pack. We're not talking a discount, we're talking free. Completely free. You only pay $5 for shipping. If you don't love it, they will even refund you the $5 for shipping. I'm not kidding. The sample pack includes eight packets of LMNT, two Citrus, two Raspberry, two Orange, and two Raw Unflavored. The Raw Unflavored ones are the ones that are safe for your clean fast and the other ones you can have in your eating window. Word on the street is the citrus flavor makes an amazing margarita, by the way.

I am loving LMNT and I think you guys will, too. Again, this is completely free. You have nothing to lose. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom forward slash IF Podcast. And I'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before you jump in. Are you fasting clean inside and out? Did you know that one of our largest exposures to toxic compounds, including endocrine disrupters, which mess with our hormones, obesogens which literally cause our body to store and gain weight, as well as carcinogens linked to cancer is actually through our skincare? Europe has banned thousands of these compounds for being toxic, and the US has only banned around 10. It's honestly shocking. So, when you're putting on your conventional skincare makeup, you're likely putting toxic compounds directly into your body. These compounds can make you feel bad, can make it really hard to lose weight, can affect your hormones, your mood, your health. And ladies, if you're thinking of having kids, when you have a child, these compounds actually go directly through the placenta into the newborn. That means your skincare makeup that you're putting on today actually affects the health of future generations.

Did you know that conventional lipstick for example often test high for lead and the half-life of lead can be up to 30 years in your bones? That means when you put on your lipstick, 30 years later, half of that lead might still be in your body. Thankfully, there's an easy, easy solution to this. There's a company called Beautycounter and they were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient and their products are extensively tested to be safe for your skin. You can actually feel good about what you put on and on top of that, their products actually work that's because they're not “all natural.” They actually combine the best of both worlds, both synthetic and natural ingredients to create products that actually support the health of your skin and make your skin look amazing. They have skincare lines for all your skin types, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, anti-aging and brightening peels, and vitamin C serums, and incredible makeup. If you see my makeup on Instagram, that's all Beautycounter. You can shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter.

And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also, definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right, now, enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 248 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi, everybody.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Gin?

Gin Stephens: Well, I am fabulous. It is January 2nd and I was late putting up my Christmas decorations this year. So, I took them down earlier than usual. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I was going to ask you. I've been stressing about the proper time to take them down. I was going to take them down today.

Gin Stephens: Well, I follow the, like, take them down to the 12 days of Christmas kind of a thing. So, therefore, January 5th would be the official or 6th depending on what you count as day one, I don't know. But right around January 5th or 6th.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, I thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.

Gin Stephens: No, that's when it begins.

Melanie Avalon: What? Are you sure?

Gin Stephens: Yeah. There's the season in the Christian faith called epiphany. That's the name of the season. If you look up epiphany.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, listeners, I feel good. I typed in when are the-- It is the 4th search. People are wondering.

Gin Stephens: [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to know what the first three are?

Gin Stephens: What do you mean? The first three what?

Melanie Avalon: What people are searching for when they search for? When are the-

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: -college football playoffs, Winter Olympics, Grammys, 12 Days of Christmas.

Gin Stephens: Love it.

Melanie Avalon: Then, Oscars. Whoa.

Gin Stephens: What?

Melanie Avalon: Mind blown. I always thought the 12 days of Christmas ended on Christmas.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. See, Gin knows her stuff about stuff. [laughs] So, officially, I always keep it up till later. But I've got so much going on this week. Yesterday, I was like, I'll just take down a few things and leave up the trees. And then, I was in such a roll and I was already all dirty from taking dusty stuff and whatever, and then, I'm like, "I'm just doing it." So, I did it. So, my house is un-Christmased, whatever. un-Christmased. That is a hard word to say. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I feel so much better now. I was stressing about-- Because this is my first time having my own tree, and I was like, "When do I take it down?" Okay, I thought I was late.

Gin Stephens: No. I was just early and was a little sad. But like I said, I was on a roll, so, I did it, and here we are 2022. Officially, our first time talking in the New Year.

Melanie Avalon: I know. A question for you. I asked you this before, but you sent me a Christmas tree that is in a pot. What do you think will happen if I keep it in the pot? Will it overtake the container? What I was asking you before is, they say that goldfish, and I don't know if this is true, because I just briefly googled it, and I think it might not be true. But I'd always heard that goldfish grow to the size of their container. So, that's why like when you have a goldfish at home, it's small, but if the goldfish in ponds are big.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, I don't know the answer to either of those questions because I am the last person to ask about how to keep a plant alive. So, Chad does all keeping plants alive and I keep other things alive, like, children and cats. [laughs] He keeps plants alive. Here's what I always do. I keep it in the pot until it dies, and then I throw it away. Now, when I was a teacher, one year Chad gave me this beautiful orchid on the first day of school, and I kept it in my classroom, and it was beautiful, and then it died. There was another teacher at my school who saves things.

Melanie Avalon: Wait, you know about orchids?

Gin Stephens: I don't know anything about orchids, but I know that my friend, who was like, "I can save that." So, I gave it to her instead of throwing it away.

Melanie Avalon: Fun fact because Gin and I have the same agent. All the people that I worked with there, so, the main agent and then two assistants, they're actually agents now, I sent them an orchid plant, three of them. It was so perfect. They came in three different colors. So, I was like, they can pick whatever color they want. Are you ready? So, the orchid blooms once a year. It "dies," but it comes back. So, it might not have been dead.

Gin Stephens: Well, I gave it to her. Normally, I just would throw them away, and then I felt bad. Here's my whole rationalizing this. I felt bad. I'm like, "This plant died and then then I had to throw it away, and that's like a waste of a good plant." Then I'm like, "Wait a minute. Anytime we cut flowers, since you cut flowers, they die and you throw them away."

Melanie Avalon: And it probably wasn't even dead.

Gin Stephens: I don't know. Hopefully, she revived it.

Melanie Avalon: The thing is, I had never realized this. So, I put everywhere in the note. I explain this because I didn't want them to think it died, because they were dyed.

Gin Stephens: Brittle looking?

Melanie Avalon: Well, the flowers were dyed. D-Y. Dyed colors. It said that it would die and then it would come back, but it would be its normal orchid color. So, then, I sent them a follow up email and I was like, "Maybe this is common knowledge. But just FYI about those orchids."

Gin Stephens: No, no, when I think an orchid is dead, it's not that the flower falls off. It's that the entire stem is now brown and twiggy looking. That's what I call it, it's dead now. Not just because the flowers fell off. I mean, I do know if it's still green just because the flower fell off, that doesn't mean it's dead. But once the stem would get twiggy, actually, I do know my friend did save it. When I said, I hope she saved it, she did. She told me she did.

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of plants, this is actually so perfect, unplanned. I interviewed Farmer Lee Jones last week.

Gin Stephens: His book is beautiful.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, Gin. So, up until this point, so, I've had over a hundred something guests on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Up until this point, everybody's been really incredible, really amazing, a lot of people are really passionate, but when I'd interviewed Wim Hof, he was just like another level of passion. Everybody was like at this kind of hit this glass ceiling of passion, and then he was just lightyears ahead. Farmer Lee Jones is on the Wim Hof spectrum of passion. He was yelling at the microphone. I was like, "Oh, my goodness." He was incredible. I have never felt so inspired to support regenerative agriculture, and bring back nutrient density, and revive our soil, and take charge of our health through growing better food. This man is incredible. He's so amazing. So, for listeners when that episode comes out, definitely check it out. The entire time I was just smiling. I was watching myself having the interview and I was just smiling. Can you imagine if everybody had that type of energy, what type of world we would live in?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I know.

Melanie Avalon: So, it was amazing.

Gin Stephens: That's great. Oh, I'm actually, finally listening to Why We Get Sick.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Dr. Gregor.

Gin Stephens: No, no. Benjamin Bikman.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's how not to die.

Gin Stephens: You had Benjamin Bikman on your podcast, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Oh, I loved that. Oh, he's amazing.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Spoiler alert, insulin. [laughs] But it is everything I already thought and he's saying it, I mean I haven't gotten all the way in but so far, the beginning talking about hyperinsulinemia.

Melanie Avalon: [sighs] I remember when I was doing all that and I was like, "Gin, read this book." It's basically like the insulin manifesto.

Gin Stephens: It really, really is. What inspired me to go ahead and get it as someone in my community said that it was available included through Audible Plus, with their new Audible Plus Catalog where you don't have to use a credit for it. You just can listen.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't used that yet.

Gin Stephens: What Audible Plus?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-mm.

Gin Stephens: I've always just had Audible and didn't ever join it. I just had it as my audiobook library and I would just buy a book. I didn't buy very many. But now, I'm driving to the beach and back--

Melanie Avalon: Sorry to interrupt. So, this is different then, because I have a membership with credits.

Gin Stephens: This is the Plus membership. They have a new membership level, the Audible Plus.

Melanie Avalon: And this book is on it?

Gin Stephens: And you still get a credit, but you also have more things that you can listen to that are included that don't take credits and this is one of them. It's got good stuff in there. It's not just like, stuff you don't want to listen to that you can listen to for free. No, it's stuff you do want to listen to and it's included and you don't have to use a credit. So, that finally got me to pull the trigger on getting Audible as a membership, especially, now that I'm driving to the beach so much and in the sauna I can listen. So, I'm finally listening to something.

Melanie Avalon: I'm obsessed with Audible. Actually, for listeners, because right now, as of the time of recording I'm not sure if they're still sponsoring the show. We were actually booked on inventory but I'm so passionate about them that might see if I can keep them in. So, if we do have a code for them right now, because this airs in January. I'll put in the show notes. We probably do.

Gin Stephens: They do sponsor IF Stories. I just read an ad for them today, but yeah.

Melanie Avalon: There probably is still an offer at the link, listeners, if you go to audible.com/ifpodcast or text IF PODCAST to 500-500. Well, I'm glad, Gin that you are on the Audible train with me now. Audible is like my life.

Gin Stephens: It's funny as an author of course. As soon as our books come out, you find like a typo, right? You're like, "Oh, they're--" I was just looking through Clean(ish) and they've already been printed, and of course, by this time, they come out, everybody will have them already, because we're past the date that will be released when this podcast releases. But as soon as I got my copy of the final version, I look, there's some kind of weird typo in one of the reflect and take action sections, and it's clearly just an extra character got inserted, because it's not a letter of the alphabet in the middle of a word, like an and or something. I don’t know.

In the middle of the word, someone just leaned on their typewriter, I don't know, or their keyboard. I'm like, "Well, there's one right there." But that was not in the original document. But typos get in there all throughout the way. But I was listening to Why We Get Sick today, and an entire paragraph was repeated. I swear, I just heard that exact--

Melanie Avalon: In the audiobook.

Gin Stephens: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: That's funny.

Gin Stephens: It exactly is in there twice. So, I'm like, I don't care how many people are part of the process, things happen. It makes you feel better when you see in other places, because you want your work to be perfect, but perfection is an illusion.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I told you this before on the show, but when my narrator recorded my audiobook, she did find an error in mine, but she said every single book she's ever recorded has always had an error.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. Also, one of the websites that I mentioned as a resource no longer exists and I hate that. Because it existed all the way through, and even when we checked it, and all the way through all the final, and then, all of a sudden, it's not there anymore. I'm like, "Great." [laughs] So, people would be like, "I can't find that website." I'm just waiting for the emails to start. Yes, it doesn't exist anymore. Sorry. The internet is elite living thing and it changes.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get 15% off of my favorite bone broth, which is an incredible way to open your eating window. I've been talking about the incredible health effects of bone broth for years. Bone broth is so nourishing for our body. It's rich in collagen, which can really support your gut health, your skin, curb cravings, boost your energy and your immunity, but there are a lot of brands out there, a lot of them have ingredients that I don't like, and making it yourself can also be very time consuming. That's why I am thrilled about Beauty & the Broth. So, Beauty & the Broth was created by Melissa Bolona. She's an incredible actress and entrepreneur. I've had her on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But Melissa started Beauty & the Broth after she realized the profound effect that bone broth was having on her own health specifically, gut issues, and its ability to give her radiant skin perfect for the camera. She founded Beauty & the Broth which hits everything I could want in bone broth. It uses 100% whole organic ingredients. Yes, it is certified USDA organic. It is one of the only few bone broth companies in the entire US that has a USDA certification for organic bone broth. It has no artificial flavors, no preservatives, no phthalates, no sugar, and something that I love no salt.

Friends even other bone broth that I really love always have salt added. This doesn't. Her bone broths are made from grass-fed ranch raised beef and vegetarian-fed free range chicken bones from Certified Humane USDA Organic Farms and all certified organic vegetables are used in the broth as well. There're no antibiotics, no hormones, only the good stuff. Here's the super cool thing about Beauty & the Broth. It can be a little bit of a hassle to transport bone broth. It's heavy, you have to keep it frozen. Guess what? Beauty & the Broth comes in shelf stable packets with no preservatives that you keep at room temperature and they are in concentrated form. That means that you add back water to reconstitute and you can make it any strength that you like. They're single servings, so you can take them with you on the go and even on the plane, as yes, they are three ounces and they're delicious. Oh, my goodness, friends, they will just make you light up. They're honestly one of the most amazing things I've ever tasted. So, if you've been looking to finally jump on the bone broth train, do it now and do it with Beauty & the Broth. And Melissa has an amazing offer just for our listeners. You can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com or melanieavalon.com/broth and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 15% off. That's thebeautyandthebroth.com with the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. All of the listeners who have tried it, ever since I aired my episode with Melissa have talked about how much they love it. It is so delicious. You guys will definitely love it. So, definitely check that out.

By the way, bone broth does break your fast. So, this is something that you want to have in your eating window. In fact, it's an amazing way to open your eating window because when you're in that fasted state, when you take in bone broth as the first thing, all of those rich nutrients and collagen go straight to your gut, help heal your gut, help with leaky gut, help digestive issues. And again, you can go to thebeautyandthebroth.com and use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON for 15% off. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today?

Gin Stephens: Yep, let's get started.

Melanie Avalon: All right. So, to start things off, we have a very long question. It's from Carrie. Carrie, I cut down your question a lot. But it has a lot of good stuff in it, and a lot of good questions, and a lot of stuff to discuss. So, I thought we could just tackle it. This question comes from Carrie. The subject is: "Seeking patient answers, my saga and road to IF." Carrie says, "Hey, Melanie and Gin, I'm 46 and I started IF-ing two and a half months ago to lose weight. I haven't lost a pound yet nor an inch. Clothes still fit the same too. But I do love the convenience of it and the way I feel while I am fasting, energy, clarity, productivity. I clean fast. I was pretty sure drinking black coffee and giving up my Coffee-mate would cause certain death and it still hasn't. I haven't read any of your books but I did just start What When Wine this week. I chose that one because my story is very similar to Melanie's. So, I went with that one first in hopes of finding help.

In May 2013, I had my appendix out. A couple of weeks later I got a sinus infection and they put me on, I'm thinking it's an antibiotic, which wrecked my gut bad. I was also nursing our third kid. The doctor said, I should do the BRAT diet which is Bananas, Rice, Applesauce and Toast. A week or two later, I got a positive C. diff test, more antibiotics, it worked. The C. diff was gone and eventually, I felt like myself again. Over a year later, I was training for another half marathon and doing daily HIIT for training. I was tracking calories and MyFitnessPal, and I never want to do that again. I lost 15 pounds which was the rest of my baby weight and I was very happy. But while the weight was coming off other things were starting. Anxiety, panic attacks, brain fog and hives. If I bumped my arm or leg on an edge or the counter or something that scratched it, I would end up with hives. In hindsight I think all the training and running exacerbated gut problems from all the antibiotics, but I have no proof.

By the end of the summer, I gained 40 pounds. In spring, 2016, a chiropractor who does kinesiology put me on herbs for a liver parasite and liver virus. I added essential oils and that helped not needing Zyrtec. In 2017, she said she started a, it is a name brand 'Weight Loss Drink' thing. She says, eventually, the brain fog and anxiety cleared and I lost 15 pounds, but I plateaued and quit those. In 2019, I gained the 15 pounds back even though I ate very healthy 80% to 90% of the time. June 2020, a naturopathic practitioner put me on some remedies from Europe to support my organs. My once very poor digestion has improved, but it still has its poor movements. I did a parasite detox remedy and a heavy metal detox. I had my fillings replaced. Believe it or not, I had tiny pieces of metal coming out of my skin. I would be skeptical if I hadn't lived it. All of my traditional blood tests are always normal. A few elimination diets, food tests, which change every time, my thyroid appears fine. Now, I'm contemplating a SIBO test. It's like throwing noodles against the wall and waiting for something to stick. There's a reason I'm going through this, I just haven't discovered it yet.

I did start that 'Weight Loss Drink' company thing again a couple of months ago because it worked the first time until it didn't. Now, it's almost 2022 and I still have 40 pounds. If not for your podcast, I'm sure, I'd have jumped ship by now. But you two keep me afloat in this sea of confusion. I fast a minimum of 16 hours, sometimes, up to 20 to 21. Eat later in the day, so I can eat with the family at night. IF worked for me in all the ways, except the one that outward shows every day and my clothes size, clothes comfort, self-esteem etc. I have three active kids and I cannot keep up with them at this size. I'm 5'4" and I currently weigh 175 pounds on a small frame. I spent so much time researching and going down rabbit holes. For exercise, I love walking and yoga. I don't do it regularly because it's not helping. I used to focus on 10,000 steps a day, but I've lost my motivation and discipline. One of the reasons I can't lose weight is also probably because I'm stressed.

I also love wine and beer. Beer for socializing and I'm very good at it. I do try to get organic wines, I'm anxious to get to that part of the book that discusses it. I admittedly drink too much alcohol. It's how I deal with stress. I drink nearly a gallon of water daily. A couple of random things to share, I started serrapeptase a while back not for anything specific, but to see if something happened, I wouldn't have thought of. The verdict is still out on that. I did the ZOE program. While interesting, the foods still require tracking and I really don't want to track anything, and maybe, I misunderstood the program, but healthy foods were what was encouraged and less healthy were not. They seemed geared towards plant based and I'm not plant based. I was born to eat meat as well."

Gin Stephens: That actually is the point of ZOE is teaching you what is healthy for your body so they're going to give those higher scores. That's the point. They are encouraging you to eat what will help your microbiome be healthy. They don't want you to eliminate plants, though. They're not like, "No, don't eat any meat." We're also not trying to get a score of a one hundred. So, I think that's where a lot of people get confused when they do ZOE, because they're not trying to teach you, only eat these foods that give your body a hundred, a score of hundred and don't eat anything else. It's wanting you to live in the real world by encouraging you to emphasize certain foods and de-emphasize other ones, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon: I'm very, very impressed with their--

Gin Stephens: Support.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You're connected with somebody who can answer your questions, and I've been drilling them on some of the questions I have about some of the foods in the app, and they've been very good at getting me really detailed answers. I do agree that I think it is very plant based. Some of it, I think is a little bit off with the meat and the seafood just as far as some of the things that it recommends. But in general, the concept that it's addressing is processing fats versus glucose like carbs and that effect. Then, the foods have to do with effects they've seen in the gut microbiome. I think it's a really helpful app and it's really interesting seeing feedback, especially, my Facebook group. Some people are like, "This is a game changer, this completely helped me break through a plateau, I feel better." For some people, it tells them what they feel like they already knew, and then, some people, especially people I think who are more low carb parts of it don't quite resonate. But either way, regardless the information that you get with the CGM and the gut microbiome test, there's a lot to learn there. So, it's really cool. I'll put a link in the show notes. I interviewed Tim Spector, the founder. So, that was a really, really cool conversation.

Gin Stephens: Oh, and I'm talking to him. When this comes out, what, is this comes out on the 17th? I'm talking to him on the 19th. We're doing a webinar in my community. We've never actually talked, even though, he wrote the foreword to Clean(ish), we've never actually talked. So, we're going to do a webinar only available for members of the Delay, Don't Deny Community. Go to ginstephens.com/community. You still have time to get there. But the replay will be there in the community as well. That's the only place it will be available. But they're very gut focused. So, that is why they're encouraging the foods that will feed your gut really, really well.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Just we're talking about little pieces as we go. I want to say briefly about the serrapeptase. So that's the supplement that we've been talking about for a while on this show and I finally developed my own, which is very exciting, and it's a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and when you take it in fasted state, it actually goes into your bloodstream and it breaks down potentially problematic proteins. So, things that your body might be reacting to, it can help address. So, inflammation, allergies, it can clear your sinuses. Things on the backburner that you might not quite notice but you need to be on it long-term to possibly see difference in your bloodwork would be things like it can break down fatty deposits, and it may reduce cholesterol, it just has a myriad of potential benefits, wound healing.

It's really interesting to see because so many people in my audience have been getting it, and some people go to it with a very specific goal like, "I want to clear my sinuses," and people have really been seeing that. Some people are more like Carrie, where they're not quite sure what they're taking it for. But I just know for me personally, I think it has a very just general synergistic helpful effect on the body like fasting does in a way. So, if you'd like to get your own, it's at avalonx.us.

Gin Stephens: All right, well, if we're going back, I have one more thing that I highlighted that was farther back. The part about alcohol and she said, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." and it's how she deals with stress. I'm going to just come right out and say, Melanie and I have a different recommendation when it comes to how much alcohol might support weight loss are affect it negatively, and I think a lot of it is your own bio individuality. But for me, alcohol, when I was trying to lose weight absolutely stalled my weight loss. Like the period of time when I was trying to get to my goal weight, I didn't have alcohol for about 10 weeks at all, and I really focused on eating real foods. I didn't count fat grams, I didn't count carbs, I didn't count calories. I just didn't eat ultra-processed foods. I didn't drink alcohol. I lost two pounds a week. My body did so much better. Over the holidays, yes, I'm still drinking Dry Farm Wines. Yes, I love it. But my body doesn't feel it's best, even if I drink too much Dry Farm Wine. So, to feel my best, I'm better with zero alcohol, am I going to be alcohol free for the rest of my life? No. But if I wanted to lose weight and I knew I was-- If I actually said the sentence, "I admittedly drink too much alcohol." I would really start there.

If you're worried like, "Oh, my gosh, I can't stop drinking alcohol, I just can't. How am I going to have fun?" Well, that's really when you need to start looking at how much you're drinking. And that's where I would recommend the book This Naked Mind. Annie Grace is the author, and I read it, and I was like, "Wow." Because I always have this, like you said, beers for socializing. I almost like that, too. I was like, "If I get together with my college friends, we're going to be drinking. That's what we do. We always have." So, the first time we got together, I was having a month where I wasn't drinking at all, and I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to tell them till we get there." It sounds like, they're going to be like, I'm not even coming or whatever and then when I got there and I'm like, "I'm not drinking, surprise." They're like, "Oh, okay, that's weird but that's fine." So, I was the designated driver, I had just as much fun, I socialized great, and I felt great the next day. So, I just really want you to-- Like I said, This Naked Mind, consider that book. It really will make you think about your alcohol consumption even if you like me decide you're not going to be alcohol free. But if you feel like you're drinking too much, I would not hesitate to read this immediately. Sorry, I had to pop that in there.

Melanie Avalon: No, no, no. I'm really excited for her to get to my section on the book on alcohol and I agree. I think it's super context dependent on two things. Before that, I think there is something different between having what a person would consider minimal or moderate alcohol and trying to lose weight by adjusting it compared to knowing that you're probably overdrinking and wanting to lose weight. Like that's two different situations in my head. As far as the context, I think, people can be very different in how they metabolize alcohol. And then, also, I think the context of the diet that you're having it with is huge. So, for example, like for Gin, it sounds like for you, you would rather cut out the alcohol, that's an extreme approach to the alcohol compared to a more extreme approach to the food.

Gin Stephens: Well, for me, I learned through the DNA testing that my body metabolizes alcohol slowly. Some people metabolize caffeine slowly, I don't. But my body does metabolize alcohol slowly. So, my liver has to work on the alcohol like, we had that breathalyzer that would test your ketones, I actually was using that for a long time, I don't know about a year ago or a little before a year ago. When I would drink, it would vastly affect the amount of ketones I would produce the next day. To the point like, it would take me a while to get it. My liver was busy processing alcohol for a long time is what I'm saying. So, it really affected my body. If I want to lose fat, my liver needs to not be busy processing alcohol.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I guess, what I meant about the food context is, so, I don't want to use Carrie as an example because she's admitted that she does think she overdrinks. But for another person who is moderately drinking and not losing weight, so, one option might be cutting out the alcohol completely and seeing what happens, or another option might be keeping in the alcohol and adjusting the food more, and either of those situations could potentially lead to progress.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. But putting them together, one, two, I think would also very likely supercharge it for almost anybody. I just really feel that way.

Melanie Avalon: That's the thing I actually don't know.

Gin Stephens: I know. But I do want people to try it, just to see if they think. I don't know. Go ahead.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm just going to say, I'm not actually-- and I talk about this a lot in What When Wine. So, people can check that out if they'd like to learn more. But I think some people might lose more if they're really intense on the food but still having alcohol, just because of some of the ways that alcohol does affect metabolism, and its thermogenic effect, and its effect on insulin, and especially like wine, potentially its effect on insulin, its effect on like a few different things. I think some people, let's say that the diet is controlled and it's a certain type of controlled diet, be it macros, Whole Foods, whatever it is, some people might lose more actually having wine with it, and I'm saying wine, but some people might not.

Gin Stephens: I think probably a lot of it has to do with whether you're a good alcohol metabolizer or not. I've just seen my effects over time knowing how I feel. Also, having that feedback from the breathalyzer showing how it really affected how long it took me to get into ketosis versus when I didn't have it. I mean, that's huge for me. So, it would just be something I would always recommend as a tool in the toolbox for somebody.

Melanie Avalon: I will say, if you are drinking wine, specifically drink Dry Farm Wines.

Gin Stephens: Oh, 100%.

Melanie Avalon: So, I went out on New Year's and we went to two different places, and the first place I went, I was able to get a wine that I had looked up the winery, like I'm pretty sure it probably wasn't as low alcohol as Dry Farm Wines or as low sugar, but I can tell now when I drink a wine at a restaurant that's not from Dry Farm Wines. I can pretty much tell if it's approaching the Dry Farm Wines spectrum. So, that one was and I was like, "Okay, I'm good." But then we went to another bar, and I got the only organic one I could find. But now, I can just so tell how high in alcohol and sugar, a lot of wines are. I wasn't hung over or anything but I had a tiny, tiny little headache and I was like, "Oh, my goodness. I got to stay with my Dry Farm Wines." So, if listeners would like to get Dry Farm Wines, they can go to dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and they can get a bottle for a penny there.

I do have a question for listeners. I was brainstorming actually on New Year's Eve with one of my friends. Let me know, would you be interested and I'm contemplating developing an app that would, I know there's so many wines in the world, but you would look up wines and it would tell you if they're organic, or sustainable, or biodynamic, like that would just be so helpful for me personally, when I'm out at restaurants. Let me know if that would be something of interest for people.

Gin Stephens: I think it would be of interest, but there really are so many different-

Melanie Avalon: Wines.

Gin Stephens: -wines that I don't know how you would compile that. Because some are produced in small amounts and here's what I do. I always stick to, if I'm out, I try to get something from France. [laughs] That's my metric. You know, France. If it's made in France, it's smaller kind of a thing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, actually, so, my people, if they want to know my protocol, I look at the wine list. I don't even look at US. I don't.

Gin Stephens: No. Not at a restaurant.

Melanie Avalon: I look at the European ones, and then, I google the winery, and this is why I want to make this app. I google the winery and you'd be really surprised how many of them actually are implementing organic practices. The thing that Dry Farm Wines goes one step beyond is, they test the wines on top of that to make sure they are organic, and free of pesticides, and free of mold. But then they also test the alcohol and the sugar content, which when you're drinking low sugar, low alcohol wines, it's just such a massive difference. But yeah, the reason I'm thinking it's doable is the Vivino app I love and you scan bottles with it and it comes up with the bottle, and people write reviews, and it has all the information, and it has almost every wine that I scan ever so it's possible to do. Let me know listeners if that would be something of interest.

Back to Carrie. She says, "I feel like my body is not my own even after all these years of battling the things I have not grown accustomed to it. I feel like I am battling it all the time, but I do not know why. I cannot figure out what is wrong and that is hard for me because I am a fixer." And then, what's interesting is, Carrie sent us this whole email and she didn't mention what she's eating, which is something I actually want to talk about. I emailed her to ask, what she's eating? And she said, "I eat meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salads with homemade vinaigrette, feta or parmesan, and toasted walnuts or pecans, a variety of fruits, fats, butter, avocado, olive oil, occasional cheese, processed foods like tortilla chips, occasional candy, especially, when the kids share Halloween candy, taco shells, occasional desserts, basmati rice a few times a month. I rarely eat bread and when I do its usually Ezekiel, no milk, sometimes a tiny bowl of ice cream but again once a month, a little sour cream. We do not eat out a ton because we're busy with the kids and work. I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, nope."

I want to circle back to this. She says, "So, I try to make the best choices as often as I can. Sometimes, I have the cupcake the kids didn't take to Boy Scouts. So, I guess my questions for you are, here we go. Number one, "Podcast listening. I love it. But should I continue working my way through it," because she has started at the beginning, "Or start with the most current and go backwards?" I'm about three years behind right now." I thought this was a really great question. I don't think anybody's ever asked us this before.

Gin Stephens: No. I don't think so either.

Melanie Avalon: Gin, what are your thoughts?

Gin Stephens: I don't know. I feel like I might would start with the most current and go backwards. When we started, so many things have changed. For example, remember when we like the first year, we got that question about CBD oil and we're like, "We think that might be illegal. Don't do that." [laughs] And now, it's like there's a CBD store on every block, right?

Melanie Avalon: I was just thinking about that. I was ordering some more Feals and I was like, "Wow, things have come so far."

Gin Stephens: Because we're like, "I don't know. It's against the law probably. Don't use that." Times have changed so much. So, probably listening to the early ones might even be like a hilarious. [laughs] I don’t know.

Melanie Avalon: I probably suggest doing-- so, the way I handle podcast is-- so, I listen to the new ones as they're coming out, and then, well it depends on what type of show it is. But then, I usually go back and find the episodes that look intriguing and listen to them. But yeah, you could binge listen. A lot of people tell us that. A lot of people write in and say that they're starting at the beginning. I'd be really curious to know how many people, in general, our listeners-- our new listeners, how they approach it. Like, do they go back? That's a good question.

Gin Stephens: I would definitely listen to the new ones as they come out and also Intermittent Fasting Stories. If people are not listening to that one yet, that's one that I think-- and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. So, I would be more likely to listen to recent of all of them versus going deep dive way back in the archives, unless, you're really looking for something to listen to, and then, that would be tell us the funniest thing you heard from Episode Two or whatever we know. Anyway, I just think we would probably cringe at some of the things we might have said early on.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's such a different format, like the Biohacking Podcast would definitely be one. It doesn't--

Gin Stephens: It's not sequential.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's like episodic. So, any--

Gin Stephens: Same with IF Stories.

Melanie Avalon: You would basically just go on the topics that you want to listen to. This one it's a lot of the same topic but yeah, it's a good question. So, number two is, "Two and a half months with zero results a thing. All the questions I've heard, no one else asked about going this long with no weight loss. I keep listening, thinking someday someone will ask all the same questions and the clouds will part, the angels will sing, and I'll know what to do." So, two and a half months with zero results.

Gin Stephens: All right. So, here is a place where Intermittent Fasting Stories can come to the rescue. There are lots of episodes. Lots and lots of episodes out there, but two that really stand out for me as episodes for going a long time with no weight loss. One of the most recent ones that I did has still been a while. Episode 125, Roxi. If you just go to like Google and type in Intermittent Fasting Stories, Roxi, it'll help you find Roxi's episode. But Roxi started intermittent fasting, she was feeling great, she was rolling along, losing no weight at all. Then, she went back to her doctor and had a re-check. She had been diagnosed with fatty liver disease before she started fasting. Doing intermittent fasting for all these months, went back to the doctor, her fatty liver disease was completely reversed, but she hadn't lost any weight. So, it didn't show up on the scale, but clearly her body was busy doing something, which is pretty exciting.

Now, there's another episode to look at. Oh, and by the way, I just want to say imagine, if Roxi had quit, because she thought it wasn't working for her. "Oh, this isn't working. I'm going to quit." She was clearing out a fatty liver. So, eventually she did go on to start losing pounds on the scale and she's gotten smaller or sizes changed, but that episode just really always inspires me and her story.

Melanie Avalon: How much did she weigh?

Gin Stephens: I don't remember the weight exactly but she was overweight.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if she was obese.

Gin Stephens: I'm not sure exactly whether she was in the obese category or not but she definitely had the fatty liver. So, having a fatty liver, it's not something you want. So, here's another story that is, it's Episode 50, and it's Renee and Joel. They are mother-son. Renee is the mother, Joel is the son, and when they started intermittent fasting, they both started it at the same time. He did not lose a single pound for the first eight months of doing IF. But in the ninth month, the weight just started to fall right off, he didn't change a thing, just boom. The weight started to go and he lost the 20 pounds that he wanted to lose after eight months of losing nothing. So, listen to those two stories.

The thing is that something is happening in the body. You know what was going on in Joel's body? I don't know. Maybe, his insulin was coming down. Listening to this, Why We Get Sick? If he had hyperinsulinemia, insulin is such a storage hormone. It may be all that was happening for eight months is his body's fasted insulin level, his level of circulating insulin that goes around all the time was going down, down, down, down, down. Then, when it got to a certain point, bam he was able to lose the weight he wanted to lose. That 20 pounds dropped off so quickly after nothing.

Melanie Avalon: That's like Gary Taubes' theory about the insulin threshold.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, absolutely. I totally believe that could be a factor. For Roxi, fatty liver, fatty liver, fatty liver, bam. All of a sudden, she started losing the weight. So, something good is happening in the body when you're doing intermittent fasting and you can't always see it. So, there was that.

Melanie Avalon: She didn't say what window she's doing, does she?

Gin Stephens: Well, she said that minimum of 16 and sometimes 20 to 21. Here's what I've noticed from years in the Intermittent Fasting Community. When people would say, "I always do at least whatever, and sometimes, I did this." If they start tracking their fasts on an app, they realize that they might skew a lot more to the 16 and less to the 20 than they thought. That's just something to keep in mind. If you're fast or usually 16, 16, 16, 16, every now and then you do a 20 or 21, you're likely not getting into that peak fat burning that starts to ramp up around our 18. Just pushing it to 19 consistently instead of 16 consistently could make a difference. Just something to consider. Try an app and see what you're doing. Because for me, I needed a consistent 19 to really get that fat burning in and to lose the weight that I wanted to lose.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I guess for me, so, I think it's very telling for Carrie, well, first of all, Carrie, I really, really identify with you and I can see why you feel like our stories are really similar because for listeners, who are not familiar, a lot of my health issues started with GI distress, and SIBO, and antibiotics, and just feeling like my gut got off after this catalyzing incident, and just being a rocky road ever since then. So, I completely identify and I know what this is like for so many people. This isn't even about the weight loss. This is about the health issues that she was experiencing. You just you know something's off, and you just want to find answers, and you try all the things like Carrie has done. So, parasites, and heavy metals, and herbs, and cleanses, and going after this liver virus, and antibiotics, and just trying all these different things. I know that it's very scary and it can feel very disheartening. So, I'm completely there with you.

For me what happened, I hit burnout with all of it. I hit a point where I was like, "I don't care." Like, I'm not testing anymore, I'm not going to try to fix whatever the specific thing is through a specific supplement or through a specific thing, and I don't know that the ideal mindset to be in either, but the takeaway that I learned from all of that and where I am now, it's really easy to get caught up in the minutiae and try to go after these specific things that you think might be in you or that might be off. When I think if you just step back and breathe, and take a more holistic approach that's foundationally based on diet and food, I think there's massive, massive potential there. You can be doing all these things, but if you're taking in food that is not supporting your gut microbiome and it's contributing to these issues, that's difficult to address. And then, on top of that, there's so much potential that can be gained when you are eating a diet that's really, really supporting your body and helping address that. All that said, so, as far as like, where to focus and like, "Where the answer is?" There might be things that you really, really do need to focus on and address.

So, for me, the heavy metals were really bad for me. My blood levels of mercury were over 30 which is just shocking. So, that was something I did need to address. For me, I do have to keep monitoring my anemia, for example. That's not something I can just be like, "Oh, I'll just eat food and be okay." No, I actually, I use InsideTracker and I stay on top of my ferritin and my iron because that mine has a tendency to drop. So, there are things that are important to focus on and keep in mind, but I think maybe getting out of the detox mindset and entering a healing diet food mindset can't be understated. I also empathize as well. Carrie has this mindset of the perfectionism mindset. So, she's worried that, I'm going to say it again. She says, "I'm not perfect with my diet partly because I know it's not sustainable and if I try and fail, I will just say, no." So, that's really hard to navigate because I as well, I'm a perfectionist and an all or none person. And I know it's very easy, it's a slippery slope, where some people respond to not being perfect with just throwing it all out the window, which is a really interesting mindset justification that we make that doesn't have to be. So, you can still strive for perfect and then, if you're not perfect, that's okay. But if you're not perfect, it doesn't mean that you throw everything out the window and just lapse into rebelling against perfectionism. You can still strive for perfect but things can be good.

It's interesting, I just finished Cynthia Thurlow's new book, and she talks about this, and she recommends a, I think, she calls it a good, better, best mindset. So, she says, "Every single day is either a best day." So, that would be like the equivalent of "perfect." So, you ate all the foods you want to eat, you did the fasting the way you want to do it, etc., Then, there's the better day. So, that's where like, you're almost there but some things were like a little bit off, and then, there's the good days, which maybe more things are off, but either way, you're always making progress. So, I would really suggest that mindset, Carrie, applying that to your diet. So, striving for those best days rather than saying, "I'm not even going to try." Because I know you don't want to track and you don't want to be perfect, but it might be that you're not going to be able to make the progress that you want without addressing the actual food choices of your eating window. Intermittent fasting can be amazing. But for some people, it's not going to be enough to actually make the change. We can tweak the window, we can fast more, but at some point, some people, you've just got to look at what you're eating.

Gin Stephens: And you know to me, that's funny to hear you say that, because what she described is what she eats sounds pretty great. It sounds very cleanish. It's very much like the way I eat. She's eating meat, seafood, eggs, lots of veggies, salad with homemade dressing. It sounded like a pretty, pretty great diet to me.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's the thing. So, I think what it sounds like to me, just looking at it briefly, skimming through the foods like, "Oh, this is a good diet." So, I think maybe she's found a safety within that, when you're saying people, they think they're fasting a certain amount but they're not quite. I think it might be the situation with the food. So, she feels like it's healthy, but the cheese, the fat, the processed food, if her insulin levels are high enough and her carb intake is enough such that she is at a more of a storing mode than having the fats, the cheese, the things like that, they might be every time she's eating, adding in enough excess nutrition that she's not going to ever lose weight unless she gets a little bit more strict.

Gin Stephens: That's what my tweaks recommended would address that exact thing would be try to delay the alcohol for a month. See what happens if you just avoid the alcohol and just push that window length a little bit. That would give you the same benefit in lowering your insulin because you're fasting a little bit more. It seemed like a pretty good a balanced kind of a way because otherwise you're just like dieting hardcore. So many of us don't want to diet hardcore.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's the mindset I'm trying to dismantle right now. Because she's eating what she's eating but she doesn't want to diet hardcore.

Gin Stephens: Right. I don't think she needs to change what she's eating.

Melanie Avalon: She could substantially change what she's eating without it being dieting hardcore.

Gin Stephens: See, I don't think she needs to substantially change what she's eating. I guess, that's where we're having that disconnect. She has occasional candy. I eat tortilla chips. I eat occasional candy. She seems like she's eating a very good diet to me. I don't know. To change it up would seem hardcore to me.

Melanie Avalon: I think for some people if they're eating fats and carbs in their meals, especially, cheese in there, butter in there, nuts in there, cheese, nuts, things like that can easily be very weight promoting. It might be that in order to lose the weight, it doesn't have to be crazy. But eating just Whole Foods, so no longer adding additional fats like still eating your normal meats but not adding the fats, not adding nuts, not adding cheese, you might see massive, massive changes. It doesn't have to be like counting calories, and it doesn't have to be super intense, but just making some tweaks, and that's what I'm trying to dismantle like, there's a lot of change she can make to her diet. That's not going to be crazy dieting, it doesn't have to seem like really restrictive, but it might make super, huge changes pretty quickly. It could also be a macros approach. So, if you do want to keep in the fats, maybe, you're trying low carb. There're different ways that you could try it. But you could tweak it within a paradigm that is not super restrictive, not super crazy, but might be addressing the things that might be making it impossible.

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Gin Stephens: I think that probably a good majority of the people out there don't want to tweak by eating less fat, or less carbs, or go low fat, or go low carb, I think we just want to eat real food. I don't want to have a potato with no butter or butter with no potato. I want to have a potato with butter. The way that I and a lot of people are able to have the potato with the butter is by focusing on maybe a 19-hour daily fast instead of 16, and by being careful with how much alcohol and things like that. I know that some people are really excited to try leaving out certain macros. But I think a lot of people really just don't want to do that. I don't know. Something to think about. She could certainly do whichever of those seems appealing to her. We've given her a lot of tools to pick from, I think.

Melanie Avalon: I don't want to make blanket statements because I don't know what the majority of people want.

Gin Stephens: Can I be honest with something? Somebody in my community listened to last week's episode, where we talked a lot about cheese and nuts, and was a little salty about it. There was some feedback of feeling like, we are telling people what to eat and what not to eat. She said, "We." She wasn't talking about you, it's about me and you. A very interesting discussion ensued in the community. So, that's why I wanted to bring that up. A lot of people really don't want to count macros. They don't want to do the low fat, they don't want to do the low carb, they just want to eat food.

Melanie Avalon: What's interesting is, I had some feedback as well, but it was the complete opposite. This is why I think like, I'm just about telling people options and you find what works for you. People just find what works for you but we had one listener write in and she was saying that, I think she was talking about the protein and the fruit. We made the suggestion about maybe trying to bring in other types of carbs because, maybe you could have them and then she reported back to me, she was like, "Nope, you know that didn't work at all." I think it's all very individual and I think we see the world through the way we approach it. So, for me, I do better with macros, and I do better being more strict on what I'm eating. And some people are like that as well. I think you see through the lens of not like that.

My foundational thing, though is that, I think people are so nervous about falling into restrictive diety mindsets and they don't want to ever count calories, they don't want to ever track anything that sometimes it can be-- we like to ignore the fact that certain foods are very likely weight promoting, and make it harder to lose weight if they're in there, and that might just be-- I don't like to ever saying something is a reality, but approaching a reality. That's why I'm trying to suggest like the good, better, best approach, and I just thought it was really interesting that she didn't even mention what she was eating. The email I cut it down from, it was probably three times as long. But there wasn't any mention of the foods, which said to me that there wasn't a focus at all on the food. She probably feels like the food is a healthy approach, and so, there's not much tweak there, and I just think there's so much progress that can happen if things are tweaked. I am never trying to enforce or impose my beliefs on anybody. This is going to sound callous, but I really could care less when people do. Like, "Do what you want, I don't care." I just want to tell people, what has worked for me and it may or may not work for you. But if things aren't resonating with people, I'm sorry. But it doesn't really bother me-- that does not bother me.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. The feedback was that, we were demonizing cheese and nuts. I really don't think that we came across as demonizing cheese and nuts. We were just saying, they're easy to overeat. But that's not us saying those are off the menu. I eat cheese, I eat nuts, but I am mindful that I can easily over eat cheese. But I'm not overeating cheese right now.

Melanie Avalon: I know the way I've talked about cheese and nuts. I don't think I've demonized them. I have not intended to. I do think pretty objectively they are foods that can be very weight promoting. So, it sounds like a defensive reaction because people want to keep it in.

Gin Stephens: Well, I definitely want to keep cheese and nuts in my diet and I want to eat them. I just need to be mindful. The same with like tortilla chips. She eats tortilla chips, I eat tortilla chips. But I mindfully eat them and I choose really high-quality ones.

Melanie Avalon: So, a simple concept of cheese is easily weight promoting. Again, I don't like to say anything black or white, I'm fairly certain that that's a pretty accurate statement. So, what you do with that is up to you. So, you know you can keep it in moderation, find the way that it works for you, it doesn't change the fact that it might be weight promoting if had in excess, which often happens.

Gin Stephens: Right. I think that's often very key said in excess and it's just hard to know. You're probably not going to have broccoli in excess, but it is a lot more likely to have cheese in excess. So, I just wanted to point that out.

Melanie Avalon: Literally, listeners, do what you want. [laughs] Do what you want. I just think it's funny because I think people, I know we're on like tangents, but I think sometimes people think that I have an agenda or I'm trying to convince people of anything. I really not. Like, do what you want. I'm just going to tell you what worked for me, and what I've learned, and what I think might help. Yes, I have no agenda.

Gin Stephens: I do have an agenda. Do you know what it is? I want people to enjoy what they're eating without stressing about it. That is it. That is what I know you do, too. But that is what Clean(ish) is all about. it is figuring out what things you want to include. There's the 'ish.' I know that a tortilla chip fried in an oil that is one of those inflammatory oils is not great for my body. But I'm still going to include them in small amounts because I enjoy them. I'm not going to veer so far to perfection that I'm not enjoying the way I love and you're not either, Melanie. You very much enjoy the way you live. But it's a matter of finding your own balance of what foods you enjoy that make you feel good. My friend, Laurie Lewis, she says it beautifully. She says, "You want to love the foods that love you back. You want to pick the foods that make you feel great and are delicious, and you're balanced in a way that your weight ends up being at a stable level, where you feel comfortable." Sometimes, you do have to make some, like that period of time where I didn't drink alcohol and I didn't have those tortilla chips or other ultra-processed foods for 10 weeks.

This was in the spring of 2015. So, would you say that I was dieting? All right, maybe so. I was not having certain things because my goal was to lose weight more quickly. I still ate a lot of good things, I had plenty of fats and carbs together, but I just didn't have alcohol or ultra-processed foods. Potato with butter, yes. Tortilla chips, no. I lost weight the most quickly I ever lost two pounds a week and then kept it all off. That was that kind of a thing. But it was delicious and I enjoyed it. So, my agenda and I think Melanie's, too, is for you to find a way to get the results you're looking for while loving the journey.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, exactly. This is what you just said but it might be for certain people with certain goals. But you do have to do some sort of tweak.

Gin Stephens: There's the delay, delay, delay the extra cheese that whenever you eat it, you don't lose weight. Whatever it is. For me, it was delaying the alcohol. So, someone might say, "Gin is anti-alcohol." No, I'm not. I wish I could enjoy it more. My body tells me, "Nope, that's too much for you. I have to have a little bit." But I'm certainly not anti. I just know that for me, that is a big, big factor. So, I'm always going to suggest that, that might be something to look at.

Melanie Avalon: I'll just read really quickly her next question. She says, "I'm sure there will be more supplements introduced to me through future episodes as I catch up. Based on my situation, do you have any you really recommend for me? Obviously, you're not doctors. I get that. Based on anecdotal evidence, are there any that you recommend?" Again, so, this was from her original email, which did not mention anything about food? Again, it was this five I got of looking for the answer in a supplement rather than the foundation of diet.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. I don't think there're any supplements out there that you can take that. It is like the reason you're not losing weight that I can just blanket say is everybody's reason. Maybe, let's say, your thyroid is all messed up. A thyroid medication or thyroid support is obviously going to be transformational for your body. But that doesn't mean everybody needs to go take thyroid medicine or a thyroid supplement. So, there's nothing we can blanket say, "Here's what you need to help the weight loss happen."

Melanie Avalon: I will say, one I do in general, that one that I do take every day though. But this is not to lose weight but to help with insulin sensitivity and stuff like that is I do take berberine every day. But there's not some sort of magical supplement that is going to make you lose weight. And then, her last thing she says, "Tips, advice, or anything I may not have thought of. I wish you both a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Much love," Carrie. So, keep us updated with how your journey goes. I will say, I really, really like her mindset. Despite all of this, she said multiple times, she said things like how she like, I'm paraphrasing, but something about how she doesn't know why she's going through this. But she knows there's a reason, and she's not giving up hope, and we're right there with you. Like, your mindset is really, really wonderful, and I know you'll find answers, and I do want you to know that I've definitely been there with everything just feeling like it fell off the wagon health wise, and not knowing what to do. So, I applaud you for really taking agency and trying to find answers, because a lot of people don't. So, yeah, you'll find it.

Gin Stephens: I did have one more thing I wanted to pop in there, and it was me circling back to the fact that she did the ZOE program, and I really think if you've got all that data from ZOE, that could really help you figure out your diet without trying to be perfect about it. Because again, ZOE doesn't expect you to be perfect, you're not trying to get hundred on your score. So, if you put the meat in and it takes you down to a 70, you might be like, "Oh, this is terrible." But actually, it's not. That 70 is not a terrible score. So, you may want to listen to Episode 170 of Intermittent Fasting Stories. I interviewed Kristi Osborn. She's also really active in the Delay, Don't Deny Community. For anyone who's looking for that, you can go to ginstephens.com/community. Kristi's story is pretty amazing. She was also having a really hard time losing weight, loved intermittent fasting, and how she felt.

But once she really embraced ZOE, and she doesn't like tracking either. She's not like loving the tracking part or trying to be perfect with ZOE. But it absolutely changed everything. So, I just wanted to pop that in there. She finally lost a lot of weight. She's actually in the community and she is part of the-- we have a little ZOE space in the Delay, Don’t Deny Community where people can come and talk about their experiences. She really does a great job guiding people how to make the most of it without letting it make you crazy. Because if you look at it through the lens of perfectionism, and like, it's a diet that's telling you what you have to eat and what you can't eat, that would be very like that diet brain kind of thing going on. Instead of like, "Oh look, my avocado toast score is higher with more avocado than adding an extra egg or something." It just might surprise you. You had to tweak those food combinations to get a higher score for you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually to that point, the mindset that's worked well for me. So, if you are addressing the types of foods you are eating, focusing on unlimited of certain types of foods rather than like, "Oh, I can't have this, I can't have that." Being like, "Oh, I can have unlimited of all of these foods and then--"

Gin Stephens: [laughs] That's just so the opposite of the way I could be. If I get told myself, "I can have unlimited of anything, I just don't do well with that approach."

Melanie Avalon: Within the certain macronutrient that I'm following.

Gin Stephens: I know. But I'm just saying that, it is just so interesting how our minds like the way that we-- I'm trying to explain how to put it. I don't know. I could overeat something if I told myself that's unlimited. Okay, I'm sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Even if it was within an intense macro nutrient. So, unlimited within a low-carb world or unlimited within a low-fat world.

Gin Stephens: I'm pretty sure I did overeat when I was unlimited in the low-carb world because I never lost any weight.

Melanie Avalon: I guess, I do high protein, low fat. It's so funny. IF turned so many people onto this. I'm really trying to think of this should be my next book.

Gin Stephens: High protein, low fat, is that what you said?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But lean meats and fruits specifically for me. This is what I've been doing for years. It is like unlimited lean protein, unlimited cucumbers, unlimited fruit, all I want. It's just a setup because of the metabolism of those macronutrients, especially, within a fasted window. It's very unlikely you'll gain weight and if anything, you might lose weight.

Gin Stephens: I just know that the one reason I never did Weight Watchers is, they have the zero-point foods. I'm pretty sure I would be overeating zero-point foods, I'd be gaming that system and probably gaining weight. [laughs] I don't know. I just know my own mindset. I do much better focusing on satiety, listening to those hunger cues instead of telling myself this one's on limited. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Which I guess the foods I focus on, like, protein is the highest for satiety. So, it's like a double whammy. But yeah. People view the world all different ways.

Gin Stephens: It is. Just like, we were naming foods whether we liked them or not. We were the opposite on all of them.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Gin and I, yeah, [laughs] I can tell you, every food Gin won't like or will like based on if I like it or not.

Gin Stephens: Probably for a lot of them. Does Gin like cucumbers?

Melanie Avalon: You like cucumbers?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Do you like lima beans?

Gin Stephens: I love lima beans.

Melanie Avalon: I can't stand lima beans.

Gin Stephens: If you told me, I could just have unlimited lima beans, I would just eat lima beans till I exploded.

Melanie Avalon: If there's one bean I can't, like, lima beans. Or, what about hazelnuts?

Gin Stephens: I like hazelnuts. They're so good.

Melanie Avalon: I don't like hazelnuts or oranges.

Gin Stephens: I love oranges.

Melanie Avalon: I love most foods. So, that's the thing. There are very few foods I don't like.

Gin Stephens: There's really very few foods I don't like.

Melanie Avalon: What do you not like?

Gin Stephens: I don't like cucumbers. Well, when I start listing them, I don't like anything that you're going to have on sushi. Let me put it that way. When I was in Tampa--

Melanie Avalon: Ginger?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I like ginger. Okay. I like ginger. I like ginger, I like wasabi, I like the sauces. But everything they roll up, I mean, I like rice. But anything else practically that they're going to roll up in there, I don't like the cucumber and they all have cucumber. I don't like fish, they all have fish.

Melanie Avalon: I love fish.

Gin Stephens: [sighs] Anyway, it's like the one restaurant I do not want to go to you with is a sushi restaurant because I have a hard time finding anything I want.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. What is the one food you dislike the most? Oh, I don't like oysters.

Gin Stephens: I don't like any kind of fish and I don't like oysters.

Melanie Avalon: But mine is probably oranges.

Gin Stephens: I love oranges. You do not like oranges that much?

Melanie Avalon: They give me a raging headache.

Gin Stephens: Oh, no, I love them. If I'm ever sick, I start to crave orange juice and it always makes me feel better. I need the pulpy kind. Pulpy orange juice, love it.

Melanie Avalon: Oranges and grapefruits.

Gin Stephens: I like grapefruits.

Melanie Avalon: I think I have a reaction to some compound--

Gin Stephens: To citrus?

Melanie Avalon: I love lime and lemon. There's something in orange that just--

Gin Stephens: That's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: You're not a huge watermelon fan, right?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I hate it. It's gross. I don't like any kind of melon. See, I think cucumbers are in that Melanie kind of. I don't like cucumber or any kind of melon. I don't eat a fruit salad that has melon in it because it has infected the rest of the fruit with its grossness. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the best, because I'm a fruit lover and out of the fruits, all of the melons.

Gin Stephens: I like pineapple, I like oranges, I like strawberries, I like any kind of berry.

Melanie Avalon: I like berries.

Gin Stephens: I'll eat an apple if it's in a pie.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny.

Gin Stephens: It really is. It is so funny.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was a fun time. So, for listeners, if you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go at ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode248. Definitely follow us on Instagram because we just got actually a new fabulous woman who is going to be helping us with our Instagram. Shoutout to Shannon. So, we're going to start posting and interacting there more. Oh, and in case you're wondering, it's not like just Shannon. I am very much-- Gin and I are both, we see it and I'm there. When I go on to my Instagram on my phone, I'm there. Don’t want to think they were like outsourcing it. So, definitely follow us on Instagram @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon on Instagram. Gin is @ginstephens, and I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this was absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember that everything discussed on the show is not medical advice. We're not doctors. You can also check out our other podcasts, Intermittent Fasting Stories, and the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. The music was composed by Leland Cox. See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Gin: GinStephens.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know!

Jan 11

Episode 247: Eating The Correct Amount, Restrictive Diet, Planning Ahead, Serial Dieting, Macronutrient Focus, Scar Tissue & Autophagy, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON ITUNES!

Clean(ish): Eat (Mostly) Clean, Live (Mainly) Clean, and Unlock Your Body's Natural Ability to Self-Clean

Welcome to Episode 247 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Gin Stephens, author of Delay, Don't Deny: Living An Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LEVELS: Learn how your fasting, food, and exercise are affecting your blood sugar levels 24/7, by wearing a continuous glucose monitor (CGM)! The Levels app lets you log meals and activities, and interprets the data for how they affect your metabolic health. Skip the 150,000 people waitlist at levels.link/ifpodcast!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LEVELS: See how your fasting, food, and exercise are affecting your blood sugar levels 24/7, by wearing a Levels continuous glucose monitor (CGM). Skip The 150,000 People Waitlist At levels.link/ifpodcast!

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Listener Q&A: Bethany - Too Much, Not Enough?

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Listener Q&A: Ratunda - Question

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #30 - William Shewfelt And Ted Naiman

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #57 - Robb Wolf

GREEN CHEF: Go To greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 And Use Code IFPODCAST130 To Get $130 Off Including Free Shipping!

Listener Q&A: Katie - IF, autophagy, and scar tissue

Intermittent Fasting Stories Episode 13: Donna Dube

Fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2

Stay Up To Date With All The News About Melanie's New Serrapeptase Supplement At melanieavalon.com/avalonx Or Head Straight Over To avalonx.us To Place Your Order Now!

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 247 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Gin Stephens, author of Fast. Feast. Repeat.: The Comprehensive Guide to Delay, Don't Deny Intermittent Fasting. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ginstephens.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this podcast do not constitute medical advice or treatment. So, pour yourself a cup of black coffee, a mug of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can skip a 150,000 people waitlist and finally get something that we love and talk about on this show all the time, a continuous glucose monitor, also known as a CGM. Wearing a CGM has honestly been one of the most profound bio hacks that I have personally experienced for understanding how I respond to food, what type of diet and fasting work for me, and truly taking charge of my health. A continuous glucose monitor is an easy to apply sensor that you put onto your arm and guess what? It continuously monitors your blood glucose, also known as your blood sugar. With a CGM, you can literally see in almost real time how foods are affecting your blood sugar levels, how your blood sugar levels change during your fast, how exercise affects them, and so much more. CGMs used to only be available to diabetics or if you had a prescription, but now, Levels is changing all of that. Yep, Levels is making CGMs accessible to everyone. With Levels you get a prescription for a CGM and then you sync it with their amazing app, which lets you track your blood sugar over time, see graphs of your data, get your own metabolic score, and see how that changes, log your meals, and so much more. I am obsessed with wearing CGMs. I've been experimenting with them and talking about them on this show for months now. But even if you just wear one once I think you will learn so, so much about your body and about your health.

Here's the thing. Levels has a waitlist of 150,000 people, but no worries. For my audience, you can skip that and get one right now. Just go to levels.link/ifpodcast. That's Levels dot link slash IF podcast to skip that waitlist of 150,000 people. If you'd like to learn all of the science of Levels, you can check out my interview with the founder, Casey Means, that's at melanieavalon.com/levels, and definitely check out my Instagram, because I have so many reels about how to put on a CGM, it is painless, and so, so easy to do, I promise. Again, that's levels.link/ifpodcast and I'll put all this information in the show notes.

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And if you're thinking of making safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely suggest becoming a band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership, totally completely worth it. Also definitely join my clean beauty email list at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty, I give away a lot of free things on that list and join me on my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. I do a weekly giveaway every single week for Beautycounter, people share their experience and product reviews, and so much more. And again, the link to shop with us is melanieavalon.com/beautycounter. All right now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 247 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with, Gin Stephens.

Gin Stephens: Hi everybody.

Melanie Avalon: And this is not really relevant anymore for listeners but happy late Christmas, Gin.

Gin Stephens: Well, thank you. Thank you and happy New Year to you and all the things.

Melanie Avalon: I know. When this airs, it will be 2022. Although, last week, last week as well, I guess.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. This is our second New Year episode even though, we're still recording it in the past. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Crazy, how that works.

Gin Stephens: Wonder how the future looks.

Melanie Avalon: How are things in your world? Anything new?

Gin Stephens: Well, I just want to say thank you for being such a good, well-prepared podcast host on your Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast because I just had a podcast interview last week and it was set up by my publisher. It's a big-name person. I'm not going to say who because I don't want anybody to listen to it. [laughs] Because it's very clear this person didn't even read my book. But yeah, it was so very clear. He had not read anything. First of all, he got the title wrong when he was saying it. Did he got the title of my other book wrong? Didn't he like said, "Oh look, a book that lets you cheat." I'm like, "Oh, my God, no. What? No." Then he's like, "How many days a year can you cheat?" I'm like, "Oh, my God, why am I here?" What am I doing? [laughs] It's really, really-- Everybody else I've ever talked to has been like, you could tell they read it, or at least they read enough of it to really understand what it was about. I think all he did was look at the cover. Maybe, just a picture of the cover. I don’t know.

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny.

Gin Stephens: That really goes to show you take the time you read the book, you dig in with your guests. I've been a guest on your podcast and I just wanted to say thank you for doing that, and I know your audience appreciates it as well. Maybe, he doesn't have a lot of people that listen to his podcast. I hope not. It might be millions. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've found that, I actually think because I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I think the ones that really shine are the ones where they do do a deep dive, like I talk about how I listen to Rich Role a lot, and he is well, really, really-- You can tell, he's like really reads all the books. He's at that show for about, I think six years or seven years, and he always talks about how-- he never takes a vacation and how he's working on it just 24/7. And it makes me feel better because I'm like, "Okay, it is normal to be doing this 24/7."

Gin Stephens: Well, if I have a guest on-- For Intermittent Fasting Stories, most of my guests are just not authors. They're just intermittent fasters, telling their stories. But sometimes, I do have someone on there like, Cynthia Thurlow with her new book that's coming out in March, and I read it before I talked to her about it. I mean, I did. I took that time and it just feels, it was just so funny, because luckily it was a really short. It's like a 17-minute interview, which is really it was like a segment of a bigger one. But I was like, "Well, this certainly, nobody's going to be reading it after listening to this interview anyway."

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. Oh, my goodness.

Gin Stephens: it was funny but the others I've had have been fabulous. I'm grateful to all of them and I'm grateful for this one too, because maybe one person who hears that as be like, at least interested to look it up. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: Were you able to redirect with your answer like clarify?

Gin Stephens: I tried. I did my best but-- [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's funny.

Gin Stephens: It is. It is funny.

Melanie Avalon: Crazy that you bring up Cynthia Thurlow. That's what I was going to talk about.

Gin Stephens: Oh, I love her.

Melanie Avalon: In the intro, two things. I as well, am reading her book right now, because she's coming on my show as well. I'm really enjoying it a lot. I really like how she dives into the hormones, like all the specific roles of the hormones, and for listeners, it's geared towards women specifically for fasting. It's funny because when I first started reading it, I was like, "Okay." I mean, it was really good, but I was wondering if I was going to learn anything new. But I do really appreciate her dive into hormones. I have not gotten to the part yet with the actual specifics of her plan. So, I'm not sure how it lines up exactly with things we talked about on this show, but it does seem to be a very good resource for listeners.

Gin Stephens: She's a bit more conservative when it comes to women and fasting than I am and you are. That's just important to know like with your cycle. It might be like, I'm such a big eater, and you like to eat a lot, too. So, I just have less fear that women aren't eating enough because you know, if you're listening to your body, you're not going to over restrict. So, I don't know. I think she's more of a restrained eater, perhaps. So, if you're a restrained eater, I feel like you would worry more about women not getting it being able to eat enough. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: Like if you'd experienced it before?

Gin Stephens: Through your lens, someone who doesn't eat a lot is more of a restrained eater and they would realize that maybe you can't eat "enough" [laughs] in a certain window.

Melanie Avalon: I just had an epiphany. She's like a blend-- well, she's more like me in that she does prescribe eating certain types of food in your window. So, she advocates like Whole Foods based and typically lower carb, but she talks about carb cycling as well. But she does talk about what foods to eat. I do think when you're eating, well, just from a pure calorie percentage, it is more likely if you're eating Whole Foods or eating like low carb, specifically, I think that you might eat less. Because if you're eating all processed foods, it's really easy to eat thousands, and thousands, and thousands of calories.

Gin Stephens: Oh, well. Yeah. I don't know anybody who promotes that's the best way, the processed foods, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon: Not that they promote that.

Gin Stephens: Well, I mean some people do, I guess. That's what they think IF is.

Melanie Avalon: True.

Gin Stephens: Or if you just read the title of any of my books, you might think that's what I say, too. Then, you actually read it and go, "Oh, that isn't what Gin said."

Melanie Avalon: So, the difference would be, so with Fast. Feast. Repeat., there's not a huge, huge focus just as much as there could be.

Gin Stephens: The whole feast section is about choosing, going away from ultra-processed foods towards real foods, but when you're ready.

Melanie Avalon: Right. It's not to the extent of my book or Cynthia's book.

Gin Stephens: Well, I'm not taking a side. Like, you should be low carb, everybody should be low carb, or everyone needs carbs, a lot of carbs. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: So, maybe, the type of person who's addressing both of those right at the beginning and more intensely could more likely underrate. Maybe, I don't know. I'm just thinking.

Gin Stephens: Yep. And I love her. She is more delightful in person than she is even virtually. Because she's great. I met her in Tampa when I was there in November. She and I definitely agree that women should not over restrict. That's important. Especially, hormonally, it can definitely affect our hormones. I don't think you just shouldn't do fasting certain times of the month. I never stopped fasting just because of what day of my cycle it was, but I may have had increased hunger naturally. Because I got better at listening to my body. I naturally had a longer eating window.

I actually remember joking in my Facebook group one time that, every month, I would have a day where I was starving and be like, "Why am I so hungry today?' And every day, yeah, the next day, you know, boom, there we go, it's low or whatever you call it. But every month that surprised me, but I always had that day of increased hunger where I ate more, and I was like, "Wow, that was surprising. Why am I so hungry?" I'm like, "Oh, da." [laughs] But I always listened. I didn't feel like I was feeling. If I have different hunger, I'd always listen.

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited to talk to her about that specifically, when she comes on my show. For me, I would never want to-- because I eat do pretty much the same eating window every night. For me, personally, I would not want to change my fasting in eating windows for my cycle. Honestly, that would just add more stress to everything. I'd rather just eat more in my eating window when I'm hungrier. That's how I would compensate.

Gin Stephens: I've always just been very, like, even when I was trying to have a five-hour window every day, I talked about this before as well. I made a goal that like, it was like, it was 2016. June of 2016, it's my goal, I'm going to have a perfect month where every eating window will be five hours or less. Well, that didn't happen in June, and I was like, "I'm going to do it in July." It didn't happen in July. I've never had a month of my life, or every month, or every day was five hours or less. Because I just said like, "Oh, we're out. Let's go out to eat."

And I'll have two meals that day, and maybe it's an eight-hour window, and I'm more of like a social kind of, "Today, I'm going to open my window wider or I'm hungry today. I'm just going to go ahead and eat now." So, I just tossed those in. I think that's been helpful over time. I've never been overly rigid. even when I tried to be. Other than, there were like 10 weeks in the spring of 2015, when I was trying to get to goal that I was a little more strict for those 10 weeks. I don't even know if I was perfect for those 10 weeks, I doubt it knowing myself, but that's been a long time ago.

Melanie Avalon: For me, it's not that I'm being, because I'm just thinking about it more like super rigid, it's just that the way I have my life set up. I'm working the same amount every day up until I eat. So, opening up the window earlier doesn't really make sense for me, and then, it's not like, I can eat later because I go to bed. So, it takes care of itself. It's self-contained.

Gin Stephens: I'm just a little more spontaneous and flexible, just because that's my personality, I guess. I don't do well with overly rigid. If Will came home right now and said-- you know, I don't normally open my window right now. But it's a lot earlier in the day, although I mean, I totally could. If he came home and said, "Hey, I really want to go blah, blah, blah, here with you. Would you go with me out?" I'll be like, "Sure."

Melanie Avalon: I think that's one reason that our show works so well, because we're able to cover a lot more approaches. It works so well that we are like that. Because you cover all the people that are more fluid and like what you just said, and then, I'm the people that are like the same window all the time.

Gin Stephens: On the flip side of that, when I was that 10 weeks, when I was really trying to get to my goal, I was a little more rigid. If you have a goal to lose weight, if you're too flexible, it just probably isn't going to happen. You may need to tighten up for the weight loss phase. But again, if I look back to my history of intermittent fasting when I really committed in 2014, now, here we are when this airs in 2022, right? That's a long time. 2014 to 2022 is a lot of years. I was a lot more mindful for the very brief period of that time when I was trying to lose weight. But once I got to my goal, that's where the flexibility came in. If my honesty pants get tight, I'm like, "Okay, time to tighten up my window a little bit." And it's the ebb and the flow that really make it work long term.

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Melanie Avalon: The reason I was bringing up Cynthia was too par. I was going to talk about something else, but while we're talking about it, this actually relates completely to our first question. Do we want to go ahead and do that one?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: I really like you like dovetails in into it. We have a question from Bethany, and her subject is: "food not enough too much?" So great. She says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I absolutely love your podcast. I have learned so much and I look forward to listening every day. Like most listeners, I have tried several diet programs including intermittent fasting done incorrectly. I came across your podcast by accident a few weeks ago, and I'm so happy I did. I've lost 10 pounds and several inches since I realized putting stevia in my coffee, was hurting me, not helping me. Clean fasting makes all the difference. I am on episode 20, but I've been listening nonstop to try to get caught up. So, I apologize if this is something you've already covered in your future podcasts, I would definitely skip ahead to hear the answer. People post questions on the Facebook page about not seeing results and in the comments, people are asking, "Are you eating enough?"

What do they mean by this? What happens if you don't eat enough and if you are not counting calories, how are you supposed to know if you are eating enough? Right now, I'm doing an 18:6, opening my window from 1:30 to 7:30. I have a slow-paced job and I get bored. So, I find myself watching the clock waiting for 1:30 not so much to eat, but to have something to do. When I do eat, I don't have a full meal. I try to bring a veggie, fruit and maybe some crackers for my lunch/snack, but then, I struggle to make it home to eat dinner with my family around 6:30. I don't want to increase my lunch or snack because most of the time our dinner is Chick-fil-A drive thru which should start their own weekly delivery box, LOL.

I thought, maybe, I won't eat during the day and just wait until dinner. But when I tried doing one meal a day a couple of times, I ate everything in sight when I got home. Chocolate, candy chips, everything easy but not healthy. I have two little kids by the way. I want to work my way to eating one meal a day but I guess my body is just not ready right now since I have only been doing IF the correct way for a few weeks now. I'm seeing results and I don't want to backtrack due to eating too much during my window. I appreciate any suggestions you can offer and I look forward to your reply."

Gin Stephens: There's a lot in there. I wonder what Facebook page she's on? Of course, I haven't been on Facebook since March of 2021. So, wow, it's almost a year of being off of Facebook.

Melanie Avalon: I think this was a really old question.

Gin Stephens: Old. It's really old. Okay. That's what I was wondering. Now, I wonder who's asking, "Are you eating enough?" Because I don't think that's the right question. The right question is actually very similar. The right question is not, are you eating enough? It's, are you restricting too much? Which sounds like the exact same question, but I think it isn't. Restricting too much does mean you're not eating enough. But I would think about your eating window and what you're doing within it, and like for example, when Bethany says, "She wants to work to one meal a day," it sounds to me like, she's thinking one meal a day is like 23:1 or something. We've talked about this before, neither you nor I Melanie, eat one meal a day in a one-hour window. We have a longer period of eating. So, we stretch our eating out in one way or another over a longer period of time, then like just an hour.

So, I feel like if you give yourself a long enough window like 18:6, or 19:5, or 20:4, and you allow yourself to eat intuitively within it, you're not going to fit in two full meals in a six-hour window, probably, two full meals. It's probably going to be like one big hearty meal or multicourse kind of thing over that period of time. I would think you're probably not overly restricting if you're in that period of time and eating to satiety. But it's when you try to really force it into a small period of time, and you do that day after day after day after day, that's when it becomes restrictive. You might be eating "enough in that 23:1 paradigm enough to maintain your weight, but your metabolism will downregulate overtime if you do the same thing day after day after day, and especially, if it's a little bit restrictive for your body. So, when we say not seeing results, like, if you're not eating enough, you're not going to gain weight. I mean, we can agree on that, right, Melanie? You don't gain weight by not eating enough.

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. People will say that they're eating severely restricted diets and gaining weight and you can't-- I don't know.

Gin Stephens: I mean that could happen if you have over time slowed your metabolism to the point. Like let's say, you did a 500 calorie a day diet for a year, I'm just you know, hopefully, no one would ever do that. But let's say, you did. You ate 500 calories a day for a year, and now, you eat 700 calories a day, could you start gaining weight? Yes. Because your body has adjusted to 500 calories and your metabolism is slowed. I mean that's an extreme example. So, could you gain weight on extremely low-calorie diet? Yes. But that's only if you've really slowed down and now, you're eating more. Does that make sense?

Melanie Avalon: I don't know. If they're actually taking in 700 calories.

Gin Stephens: I know. That's a very severe example. I don't know. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Well, the reason I think it's actually really worth discussing is, I think people think about it that way. They think that their metabolism could slow enough to the point where they could gain weight on 700 calories,

Gin Stephens: I have heard from people who have gained weight on like a thousand. These are not people who don't know how to count calories. People who have a long-term diet history, and they are used to counting calories, they know how to count calories, and they're really have been restricted for a long time, they do have to keep lowering, lowering, lowering, and so that gets to the point where they actually could gain weight on a very small number of calories like a thousand. Because your body is downregulated to the point. So, you can't fix your metabolism if it gets downregulated. So, if you're not eating enough as we just said, if you're keeping it in a very restrictive window day after day after day for a long enough period of time, you can plateau there.

But that is absolutely not where we are right now with you, Bethany, because you just started a few weeks ago. So, I don't think that's time to downregulate your metabolism. The key is really just listening to your body and making sure you're not over restricting. You kind of would get an idea if you've dieted at all before in the past, think about when you did a restrictive diet, and how much food you were eating, and if you're eating like way less than that now in your eating window then you used to eat over the course of the day, that's a sign you might be over restricting.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I have a few thoughts and it kind of ties into what we were talking about earlier with, you know, how easily do people under eat. I do agree that not eating enough is actually very different from over restricting. It sounds like it'd be the same thing but-

Gin Stephens: It's really not that, right? I'm glad you get it.

Melanie Avalon: -it's not, because and I guess we would even need to define what under eating is, but let's say that under eating is not eating the amount of calories. Well, I don't know, because you do have to under eat to lose weight in a way. Well, if that's what under eating is, that's not the same thing as over restricting which is like providing way too much of a restriction to your plan. They are different. What actually something that I was thinking about, it wasn't about eating, it was a study about runners and their exercise levels compared to, if they had amenorrhea from it. So, if they lost their cycle from running and it did not relate to the amount of exercise they were doing. So, like, everybody could exercise the same amount intensely. That was not the factor for if they lost their cycle, it was their body weight. I bring that up because I think the analogy or the comparison to fasting would be that-- so, you could be doing a lot of fasting or "under eating," but if your actual body is not in a baseline state of stress, which I think the equivalent is like in the running study, it's like the people who are underweight, that might be okay for you.

Gin Stephens: I just had an epiphany, a huge one.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Go ahead.

Gin Stephens: It's only overly restrictive if your body perceives it as being overly restrictive in which case, it would downregulate your metabolism. But if you're fast and clean, your body's tapping in your fat stores well, and you're switching up your window day to day, some days you eat more, some days you eat less, your body is not going to perceive it as being overly restrictive, you're well fueled from your fat stores. But the definition of overly restrictive, it's not really something we can say. Like, here's the number that's overly restrictive.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, for example in that study, I just talked about with the runners, so, these are intense endurance athletes training. They're doing a lot of running. Again, it's the women who are too low body fat, those are the ones that affected their cycle. So, they didn't have the body weight to support that intense running, and so, the body is perceiving it as too restrictive compared to the women who had the adequate fat store. So, the body didn't perceive that same amount of running as restrictive and I think you could apply that to fasting as well.

It also brings it to my second point, which is ironically, I was talking about how people following a Whole Foods diet are more likely to "under eat." Ironically that actually might be for some people less "restrictive" because if it's more nutrient dense, like the body is looking for nutrients, and so, you could eat less calories wise, but if it's coming from what your body needs, so, like higher protein really nutrient dense, like our body is looking for nutrients. So, that's going to send a completely different signal to our body than eating the same amount of calories of processed nutrient depleted food. So, I think that's a huge thing. So, like, Bethany's question of like, how much to be eating? For me, the focus isn't even calories, it's the nutrients.

Gin Stephens: I've said it before our bodies don't count calories, they count nutrients. Everything I've ever seen in the literature reinforces that. I actually talk more about that in Clean(ish). Did you get your copy of Clean(ish), by the way?

Melanie Avalon: I did.

Gin Stephens: I thought it got to you. I thought it did, I thought it did. Isn't it so pretty?

Melanie Avalon: It is beautiful.

Gin Stephens: I love it, but there's a section in there. I can't remember which chapter it's in, where I talk about a study they did with little kids back in like the 1930s and how they ended up being master nutritionists who designed the perfect diet when the adults just left them alone and let them eat, what they wanted to eat, that they were looking for the nutrients their bodies needed. If you don't feed them the right things like what Bethany says here. She tried doing one meal a day a couple of times. Now, again, it's early on, so, she's probably not well fueled during the fast. So, that's why she's so hungry when she starts eating because her body is like, " I'm not well fueled? I need a lot to eat." But then, she's eating chocolate, candy, and chips, which is also not nourishing your body. And then your body's like, "That wasn't it, that wasn't it, that wasn't it." And you just keep going in a frenzy of over eating.

Melanie Avalon: The majority of time she says, they're eating Chick-fil-A, which that could be a lot of different things. But I would encourage her to try if she is doing for example, a one meal a day window, which we just discussed is not necessarily a frenzied one-hour of eating experience. It could be starting at 6:30 dinner and much longer or it could be even a snack before dinner, but later, so, like five to nine or something. I would encourage you, Bethany, instead of eating chocolate, candy, chips, because when you're in that hungry state ready to open your window, chocolate, candy, chips is not providing what your body needs at that moment.

Gin Stephens: It's not giving you any of it.

Melanie Avalon: Gin just said this. One, you're going to eat all that. It's not giving you what your body is looking for. So, you're going to still be hungry. Two, it's going to be really messing with your insulin levels. So, you're probably just going to crave even more because it's going to give you massive blood sugar swings. So, if you instead open your window with a very nourishing meal, maybe, I don't want disrupt your entire habit because it probably works well to pick up Chick-fil-A. But if you are able to find another dinner alternative that is possibly more nutrient dense, and more Whole Foods based, and opening with that intense nutrition, especially, high protein, try that and see if it's the same experience of frenzy and feeling like you're overeating and feeling like you can't get full.

It'll probably be a very different experience. Maybe, you can go to Costco and get rotisserie chickens or something like that. I think it'll be quite possibly a different experience or oh, Green Chef, [giggles] is one of our sponsors today. Not planned. I'm so excited. I love it when this happens. Something like Green Chef would be probably amazing for you. So, listen to the ad that we run for them in today's episode. We have an amazing offer from them.

Gin Stephens: The offers just get better and better. That's a really good offer.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I want to pop in and say real quick that, Bethany did say that, when she opens at 1:30, she's usually having a veggie and fruit. When she opens earlier, she's opening with veggies and fruit, more nutrients. Then, if she waits later, she's choosing those quick chocolate, candy, chips kind of a thing or the drive thru. So, it really is about I think being prepared like you said.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It's so interesting because people think that it's a whole lot more of a hassle or time to "eat healthy" or to change to that sort of dietary lifestyle. But it does take some time in the beginning because you got to sit down, and like, Gin said, "You got to be prepared." So, you have to figure out what the plan is that's going to make this materialize. But once you find the plan that works for you and your family, it doesn't have to be hard.

Gin Stephens: Right. You know the saying, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail," right? You've heard that saying before.

Melanie Avalon: I like that.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. If you fail to plan, just plan to fail. I mean, you know, not all the time. Obviously, but it's true with me with food. If I let myself get really hungry and there's nothing nutritious to eat, I'm going to grab the quick stuff, too. Because I'm hungry now. I'm just grabbing it. I've done that before. But would you have something in the fridge like my Green Chef meal? I can go to that, I don't have to drive thru somewhere because I'm like, "We're having this and it's quick. I don't have to think about it." I love Green Chef. I, literally, do love Green Chef. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: And I just checked our offer right now for Green Chef. So, again, all the details will be in this spot, which will probably air later in the episode. So, greenchef.com/ifpodcast130 and the code IFPODCAST130 will get you $130 off, which is awesome. They just provide access to really nutritious meals and you can choose if you want keto, or paleo, or vegan, or vegetarian, or gluten free, and they use organic ingredients.

Gin Stephens: Or, balanced living, which is what I do. [laughs] I use the balanced living plan which isn't any of those. I always say it when I'm talking about it because that's the plan that I choose is balanced living. I think they're trying to really just promote. People like me that are balanced living, we're just going to pick foods we like. If you're a keto, for example, you want to know they have keto.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Gin Stephens: I already know what I'm going to be eating when this podcast comes out. The week this podcast comes out, this is what I'm having from Green Chef, cheesy Italian meatloaves. It's got broccoli, and it's got bread, crispy chicken with honey drizzle, it's got mashed potatoes, and like this vegetable slaw, and butternut squash chili. I just looked on my app. Those are the things I'm getting.

Melanie Avalon: What I really like about them as well is, you can really make it your own. So, as you guys know, I eat more simply. So, I just got my box and it had like a barramundi, had salmon, and a chicken dish, and the ingredients are all separate. So, you can choose if there's something that doesn't work for you, you know not to include that in the dish. So, I was able to really make it my own, which was super cool.

Gin Stephens: One thing about Green Chef that's so great is a lot of the stuff is like pre-prepped. They had something I made recently and it had already. They'd already diced up like the-- I can't remember what was it, like sweet potato or something. It was already diced up. Dicing up a sweet potato is not always easy. But it was already diced up but I just had to dump it in. But I mean, it was real sweet potato. But there it was, already diced and just the exact amount that I needed.

Melanie Avalon: I think, Bethany, definitely report back. Again, I do think this was--

Gin Stephens: A really old question. [laughs] Yeah, because if it talks about Facebook, because that was March. That's been a long time. Sorry, it took so long, Bethany. You've probably figured it all out by now.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] So, let us know, the other reason I was bringing up Cynthia Thurlow was, she introduced me to a woman who has a company called SoWell. Her name is Alexandra Sowa. I wonder if she decided to call it SoWell sort of related to her last name or if that was not related at all. What's super cool is, so, she's actually an MD, and I had a phone call with her recently and I'm super excited. I'm going to bring her on my show to talk all about her company. But what I love is Gin and I are always talking on this show about the super importance of testing your insulin levels, and how none of the companies we currently work with like at home ordering, provide insulin, and doctors just don't readily prescribe an insulin, a fasting insulin test. So, she's all about that. Her kits are at-home test, kind of like with ZOE or with Everlywell, or LetsGetChecked. They syndicate to your house and you just do a finger prick yourself, and I'll make a redirect. So, you can go to ifpodcast.com/sowell, S-O-W-E-L-L.

And so, what's really cool is they have two kits right now, but they're going to be launching a new one soon that I can tell you about, but their weight biology kit, so, I'm literally holding the kit in my hand because she just sent it to me, which was super kind. The weight biology kit, it tests your HbA1c, your glucose, your insulin, cholesterol panel, so, like HDL, triglycerides, LDL, your TSH for your thyroid, your vitamin B12, it factors in your BMI and then, it calculates your HOMA IR, which is what we've been talking or I think I've been talking about it a lot. And that's basically a ratio of your insulin and your glucose, and that can actually give you a really good picture of your metabolic health. So, that's super exciting and then they also have their PCOS Biology kit, that's coming soon and that is going to be specifically to help people who have PCOS, which is super cool.

And then, the third one that they're coming out with, I think she said in the New Year, I'm so excited about this, it's going to be just a HOMA-IR test. So, that glucose-insulin measure, and I think they're going to have it like on a subscription type basis thing. I'm not really sure, but she made it sound like you get it monthly. So, you can keep track of your HOMA-IR. So, very, very exciting. It's such a great resource, and I can't wait. I talked to her on the phone like I said, and she was super great, and she just really wants to help women, have access to this testing. I mean, literally, that's testing the things that I think we both believe that you need to be testing. So, we have a code. I'm not sure what the discount is exactly, but if you go to, ifpodcast.com/sowell, that's S-O-W-E-L-L, and you can use the coupon code, IFPODCAST, and that will get you a discount. I will clarify with her what that discount is and put it in the show notes, which by the way, the show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode237. So, yay for great resources for listeners.

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that sounds great.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm excited to have her on the show and really, you know, dive deep into what she's doing. So, all right, shall we go on to our next question?

Gin Stephens: Yes. I'm going to tell you also, this one must be really old, because I know this girl, this lady, I should say. [laughs] She is 53 now. She's in my group. She's on my community. Anybody, if you go to ginstephens.com/community, you can find my community but Rotunda, and I'm not really sure how she pronounces her name, because you know, we're all typing stuff. We're not saying things or talking to each other out loud. So, I'm not sure how she pronounces her name. And in my head, I've always said Rotunda. How would you say it, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I would say, Rotunda.

Gin Stephens: Rotunda. Well, she is in my community and she posted 25 days ago, a follow up that she is now 53. So, when she typed this email, she was 51. So, we know it's been a while since she put it. So, I know, this question has already been answered in her life. I'm certain she's not doing this anymore. But she says--

Melanie Avalon: Can I jump in really quick?

Gin Stephens: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I want to clarify something for listeners about that. I'm super glad you mentioned that. If listeners are curious, so, we have every question ever submitted to our show in this massive document. It's very long. I'm telling you this, listeners, because I want you to know, if you submitted a question a long time ago and you haven't heard on the show yet, go ahead and send it again. Because the way I've been prepping the show now is as new questions come in, when I really liked them, I just put them into our prep document to prep, and then, it's only when new questions don't fill up an episode that like when I think we don't have no questions, then, I go back to this massive long document and I pull out. I don't even look at dates. I just pull out something. So, that's what happened with this for example. I say that, so that feel free to submit again because you're more likely to get on the show if you submit now.

Gin Stephens: We changed how we did it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I used to like every time go through the whole document and pick ones out but that's too much. So, if you want your question on the show, submit now, even if you submit it before. Other tips to get your question featured as many details as possible without making it long. It's the whole writing thing of like, saying the maximum amount in the shortest amount possible. That's a golden way. So, as many details but not like a novel.

Gin Stephens: I've been doing IF for six weeks, why have I not lost weight? That is not enough information. We do not know.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, we love specific, we love details, we love personality, but also, if it's like 10 pages.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. But we don't have time to read 10 pages. All right, so, here's her question from two years ago. [laughs] She said, "Hi," and then, maybe, I'll read what she just wrote 25 days ago that you would like to hear.

Melanie Avalon: Does it relate to this?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really good. I love it. She answers her own question. It really kind of-- Okay. So, she said, "Hi, I just learned about you and your podcast today." This was two years ago. So, she said, "I listened to Episode 2. I couldn't find Episode 1. Today, during my lunch break, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I've purchased Delay, Don’t Deny and I can't wait to start reading it. I've been experimenting with IF for about a year now off and on. I like how I feel while IF-ing. I've been practicing the 16:8 approach. I think I may need to up my game to a five-hour eating window as I'm a 51-year-old perimenopausal woman. As of late, I've been following Jorge Cruise's method, which includes tricking my fast with healthy fats by drinking bulletproof coffee in the morning. Jorge recommends a macronutrient balance of 20% protein, 30% carbs, and 50% fats. Considering your success, I was wondering, do you two pay attention to the macronutrients you consume specifically, complex and simple carbs."

So, fast forward to now, two years later, I'm not going to read the whole thing. She said, "Gin, you have no idea how much you have changed my life prior to stumbling upon your podcast just over two years ago." She said, "My life has changed drastically. I used to be a serial diet or starting a new diet every Monday." Again, she was looking for Jorge Cruz, like what he said to do. That's her serial dieting. I did that, too. Well, how does he say to do it, I'm going to do it like that. But listen to what she says this gives me goosebumps. She's like, "Starting a new diet every Monday. They never worked. I cannot tell you how many diet books I bought. Of the 53 years of my life, I'm confident, I've spent a good 34 years dieting unsuccessfully, not enjoying my life. Since I started IF-ing, the dieting chains have been broken and I've slowly lost 53 pounds over the past two years. I don't care that it has taken me two years. The weight comes off and it stays off, best of all, I'm not on a diet, I'm free. Thank you so much. I'm forever in your debts."

I'm pretty sure, Rotunda has figured out that no, we do not tell you what macronutrient balance you need to eat. We are all going to be different with that. And also, even if I knew what my perfect balance was, I still don't want to calculate it. I just want to eat delicious food, trusting my body to let me know when I need more protein or if I haven't had enough if my food isn't delicious, it probably needs more fat, and I know, also, she knows that you absolutely can't "trick a fast" with the bulletproof coffee. We're both definitely thumbs down on that being fasting because that's a lot of energy you are consuming. So, I know, she's not drinking that anymore.

Melanie Avalon: Well, that's super exciting.

Gin Stephens: Isn't it exciting? I'm so glad. I was able to pull it up and that she had such a great-- I mean, now, we know. Two years later, she's done great and she's no longer worrying about the bulletproof coffee or counting her macros, she's just lost 53 pounds since she initially wrote in two years ago.

Melanie Avalon: I'll provide an answer separate from her experience just talking about how I perceive macronutrients, like, whether or not I focus on macronutrients. Two things I really like about macronutrient-based approaches and I don't count macronutrients like the way people count calories or the way people count macronutrients. I don't do any of that. However, I think if people are taking a macronutrient approach, it can work for a lot of people, especially, if they're focusing on protein. So, especially, for people who and again I'm going to do this a little bit separate from Rotunda's question and just talk about the concept in general. Especially, some people who are trying to lose weight and not feeling full or not losing weight, like, focusing on protein as the center of your meal can be very, very effective for a lot of people for weight loss, and for satiety, and for health. I think what's funny is I've always been that way intuitively, like I just crave protein, and I eat high protein. But some people, I don't think it's intuitive at all and it doesn't necessarily occur to them.

For some people, they might benefit from making a conscious decision to focus on protein as the center of their meal, and that can be really, really effective. I've done some episodes on it. So, if you check out my conversation with Ted Naiman and William Shewfelt, that's at melanieavalon.com/protein. We talked about it, you can check out my first episode with Robb Wolf, I believe at melanieavalon.com/sacredcow. We talk a lot about protein. I will be having an episode coming up with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon in the future. That's going to be about protein. So, be on the lookout for that. I also recently recorded with Maria Emmerich, but that's not out yet, but that will be good as well. That's part one is that, just focusing on protein, other macronutrients aside, focusing on protein could be a great route to go and like 20% protein would be much less. That's a much lower protein proportion than what people could be focusing on I think.

Second macronutrient thing is that, especially, if weight loss is your goal, or metabolic health is your goal, having a macronutrient paradigm can work for a lot of people. So, not counting anything per se and I feel like a broken record stuck about this all the time. But doing either low carb or low fat can work for a lot of people. Different things might work for different people at different times. But I do think there is a benefit to focusing on macronutrients. The reason I started focusing on macronutrients actually is, I basically had an epiphany I've talked about this a lot on different shows. But I had this epiphany where I was like, "Hmm, I can look at macronutrients, and I can take in certain macronutrients, and I can pretty much guarantee that I won't gain weight." And if anything, I'll lose weight. I'm not prescribing what I did when I had this epiphany because I don't think it's that healthy. I basically realized that if I just ate protein for example and drink wine that it was pretty much unlikely I would gain weight, and if anything, I would lose weight, and especially, if combined with fasting and that worked really, really well.

But that was just the realization that I had that you can focus on macronutrients. You don't have to count like a single calorie and if there's a hack, I think that's more of a hack than this whole drinking fat while fasting. I think macronutrients are in a way sort of like a "hack." It kind of reminds me of something, I think Peter Attia once said, he was talking about dieting, but he was saying basically, you really just have to monitor one thing. You can count calories or you can count macronutrients. He was saying you can restrict one of three things and likely see benefits. Calories, micronutrients, or time, which for a lot of people restricting one of those can possibly have an effect.

Gin Stephens: Well, it did for me. I only restricted by time when I was losing my 75, 80 pounds, I just did time. I wouldn't count in macronutrients or calories. I just did it with time.

Melanie Avalon: And then on the flip side, I know, we're not fans of calorie counting. But if you really, really did severely, restrictedly count your calories, that can work. It's not sustainable, and you'll probably gain it back, and it probably won't be fun, but it can work. And then, same with macronutrients. If you're really, really intense, monitoring your macronutrients even without the fasting or the calories that can probably work, too. I think the magic is finding the thing to focus on that works for you, and just really making it work for you. So, a lot of our listeners, for us, it's fasting. I like to add in the macronutrients as well for the health benefits of focusing on the macronutrients that fuel my body and then also, I really don't have to ever worry about overdoing it in my eating window because of focusing on macronutrients. So, that was a long answer but those are my thoughts.

Today's episode is sponsored by Green Chef. I'm sure you know by now, how much I love them. And we've used them since around 2017. Green Chef is America's number one meal kit for eating well with dinners that work for you, not the other way around. Green Chef's options for every lifestyle include keto, and paleo, vegan, vegetarian, fast and fit, Mediterranean, and gluten free. No matter what your eating preferences, Green Chef has flavorful good for you recipes that are sure to satisfy, and I can attest to that as can Chad. I choose the balanced living plan because that's a great way to describe how I like to eat and live. This week we're having creamy chicken and potato soup with corn, roasted red peppers, sharp cheddar cheese and chives. Sriracha-tamari beef bowls with jasmine rice, broccoli, cabbage, and carrots, peanuts, and sesame seeds, and roasted chickpea and carrot bowls with kale, rice with dates and feta, and creamy turmeric spiced vinaigrette.

But besides the fact that all meals are window worthy, what do I love the most, Green Chef saves me time by taking care of meal planning, grocery shopping, and most of the prep for me week after week. So, I have time to do other things. I also love that Green Chef's pre-portioned ingredients mean, I've reduced food waste by at least 25% compared to grocery shopping. Maybe, even more than that. I was not a good grocery shopper. Anybody relate to that? Go to greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and use the code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. That's greenchef.com/ifpodcast10 and don't forget to use the promo code IFPODCAST10 to get 10 free meals including free shipping. And now, back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: All right, are we ready for the next one?

Gin Stephens: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so, we have one more question from Katie. The subject is: "IF, autophagy, and scar tissue." And Katie says, "Hi, Melanie and Gin, I, so, appreciate your podcasts and all the work, research, and love that you put into each episode. I've been doing one meal a day with clean fasting for a little over a month and I love it. I was doing about 16:8 for a couple of years without knowing it was a thing. I just knew I had weight loss results if I didn't eat after about four. I have been in the normal weight range for a couple of years after losing 90 pounds, but a recent bout with breast cancer led me to IF for the health and autophagy benefits.

My question is whether, you have ever heard about IF-induced autophagy having any effects on scar tissue. The reason I ask is that, I just noticed today that my scars are remarkably different. I am 58 and I've had a big ropey keloid scar on my side since kidney surgery as a teenager. Well, it has suddenly reduced to just a thin white scar. And my breast cancer surgery scar has almost completely disappeared. The surgeon even remarked a few days ago that it was pretty amazing. I really attribute it in great part to IF and I was curious if you have ever heard of this effect, presumably due to ramped up autophagy, thanks for all you do," Katie. And before we answer it, just sending you love and healing Katie with your breast cancer. I'm sorry.

Gin Stephens: Oh, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: So, I did a lot of research on this one but Gin, do you have thoughts?

Gin Stephens: Okay. You have a lot of research. So, I'm just going to give you very quick short thoughts. The answer is yes. If you go back to, gosh, I can't remember what episode it was Donna Dube on Intermittent Fasting Stories. If you just type into any Google, Intermittent Fasting Stories, Donna Dube, D-U-B-E, is how you spell her last name, the episode will pop up. But if you listen to her episode, she's older than me, she's older than you, Katie. She talks about, she had a C-section scar that was thick and ropy. I mean, for decades, like 30 years after her kids-- 30 years, she had this thick ropy C-section scar. After doing IF, it was exactly like you said, a thin white scar. So, I can't think of another single cause for a scar to disappear other than autophagy knowing that we know that autophagy breaks down junky proteins that we don't need anymore, and what else would a scar be except, tissue we don't need anymore. So, to me, that's the most plausible explanation.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, this was super interesting to me. I went down the rabbit hole. I was not able to find many, actually, really any studies on autophagy and scars that were there that had been there, and then, having them go away through autophagy later on.

Gin Stephens: Like, knowing how they fund scientific studies and why they do them, I can't imagine anyone would actually do one. Because it would take such a long time and it's a very specific thing, right? It doesn't sound like something they would study.

Melanie Avalon: But what's really interesting, I did find studies on fasting before or after wounds and how it affected the healing process, which relates to the scars. I also learned all about scars. I learned, this had never really occurred to me, Gin, but do you know the difference between scars from a surgery and then like fibrosis?

Gin Stephens: No.

Melanie Avalon: So, scars from surgery is like it's done. So, you had a wound, the surgery, or whatever you had done, then, a scar forms, like the process is done and the scars purpose is to-- it's the healing process and then, eventually, the scar should go away over time. So, fibrosis, and it never really occurred to me what fibrosis was. Fibrosis is actually when the body is perpetually-- It's like, it's messed up. Like it's perpetually creating new scar tissue. The scar tissue forming process should be done and it just keeps creating scar tissue. So, I thought that was really, really fascinating and was interesting, and the reason it's important to talk about this is autophagy has different effects on those two different things.

So, I found a study called fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and SCG2. So, I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But it was basically looking at fasting effect on wound closure, scar formation, collagen deposition, skin cell proliferation, and other things. I believe this was in rats, but they did find that fasting patterns, well, they looked at before and after wound injury, that it helped with the wound healing process. So, it was definitely better for like the scar formation and all of that. So, that was promising. They didn't really talk about autophagy, specifically. When I went down the autophagy rabbit hole, that's how I ended up at this fibroid world because all of the studies on autophagy and scarring was mostly related to fibrosis and fibroids. The interesting thing was it is hotly debated.

Gin Stephens: As to whether it helps or not?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: [laughs] I'm just laughing so hard because I think the two people who have now told us about and I've heard from more than two that their scars went away but they'd not debate it.

Melanie Avalon: Well, this is different.

Gin Stephens: I know it is. But still, I'm just laughing.

Melanie Avalon: So, this is not the scars.

Gin Stephens: I know. I get it. But I'm just laughing in general because they would hotly debate that this would happen for our people too, right? Anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no, I'll further clarify so I don't confuse listeners. So, basically, the reason it's debated is the role of autophagy and fibrosis. So, in the body perpetually creating new scars, some studies show that inhibiting autophagy actually increases fibrosis. So, some of the studies find that autophagy actually plays a role in a way feeding that process. Listeners, I tried to read all of the studies more but they were really, really long. But the takeaway that I think I was taking from them was that, especially, since like I just said that the fibrosis process is the body unnecessarily creating scar tissue when it really, actually shouldn't be. Autophagy can actually be used to help that because it can be feeding that process. On flipside some of the studies do show that it helps reduce fibrosis. So, it's very confusing.

All of that to say, that's different than a scar on your skin at which I could not find studies about, but I think anecdotally, we do see that, like Gin just gave the example, I've noticed it in myself, a lot of people have reported it, and it makes sense in theory. I think the important thing though to focus on, especially for her question is, even if autophagy is not the main mechanism, we see it happening. So, I don't think you even need to necessarily know exactly why. But I think we can just anecdotally say that we see it with fasting and scar tissue. I mean she even saw it. And also, last thing, especially since she was fasting before, the study I talked about that was looking at fasting before or after wound healing, I found that both helped. I found that before was more effective. So, especially, since she was fasting before these procedures, it might have been even more so that that pre-fasting prior to the procedures that created a better healing process in the first place that more allowed for a scar that faded. And then, on top of that, after it can help with the wound healing.

Gin Stephens: I just think the fact that her scar faded from when she was a teenager is just incredible. If you wrote that in a book when you do intermittent fasting, your old scars that you've had for 30 years are going to go away. That sounds fake. [laughs] You'd never make that claim, but it's happening to people. Anyway, I love it.

Melanie Avalon: Quick plug as well. I become more interested in the fibroids as well because I've been researching it in relation to my serrapeptase product because there's a lot of studies on serrapeptase and fibroids, and being a fi-bri-no-lytic. Wait, fibrinolytic means it's breaking down fibroid, right?

Gin Stephens: Oh, I don't know. It sounds like it to me.

Melanie Avalon: I've been researching that process a lot more and when serrapeptase being an enzyme that breaks down proteins, it makes sense that when it goes into your bloodstream, it can actually help break down fibroids, and I've noticed-- I'm really excited because I wasn't sure if it was going to be affecting this mole that I have on my nose, but I think it is actually making it go down which is very, very impressive. But I think that might be another-- If you're looking to potentially address scars and such therapeutic enzymes like serrapeptase, it might be something as well to try and to synergize your fast and that whole process. So, mine is at avalonx.us if you'd like to get it. All right. Anything else about scars? Have you had any scars go away, Gin?

Gin Stephens: You know, I've often examined my scars trying to see and I don't really know. I didn't have like a ton of scars. But there is one of my hands that I've had since I was a little girl and I do think it's not as raised as it used to be. I cut my hand when I was at Girl Scout camp. [laughs] I was slicing an orange and I had a new Little Girl Scout knife, you know, and back then they just gave knives to children, and here's your knife. I'm like [noise] slice in my hand. Maybe, that's why they don't give knives to children anymore.

Melanie Avalon: Was it really traumatic?

Gin Stephens: I know. What you know, know, it wasn't traumatic. I just always had that scar from it. That was all and it wasn't that it was traumatic. It's just that I knew--

Melanie Avalon: It just sounds traumatic. You still have the scar this long.

Gin Stephens: I mean, I cut my hand pretty badly. I think it used to be thicker than it is now. Now, you can see it but it's not as thick. So, I don't know. I think it's pretty obvious if it's like a ropy scar from kidney surgery or from a C-section, it would be more apparent. Whereas for me, I just have little scars here and there.

Melanie Avalon: The other reason like speaking of the enzymes and this mole that I have on my nose, what's interesting about it is, its skin color. You can't even really see it. I see it more than anybody. People probably don't even notice it. The only time it super went away like it went away was when I was in my high pineapple phase. Like when I was eating a ton of pineapple which contains bromelain which is a protein digesting enzyme, it went away.

Gin Stephens: Well, that's interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I know. When I stopped eating the pineapple and switched to-- I went low carb and then I went high carb again, but I had been eating blueberries. I wanted to go back onto a pineapple diet and see if it really does go away again. There's really a benefit to protein digesting potential of things be it autophagy, be it enzymes like serrapeptase, be it bromelain. Those really can work magic in your body for breaking down these old dysfunctional, unused proteins and scars.

Gin Stephens: We just have to give our body time to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly.

Gin Stephens: That's the thing. If you're eating all the time, like I did yesterday, we're recording the day after Christmas, I sure enjoyed my window. It was long, long, long. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: What did you have?

Gin Stephens: Oh, it was such a good day, though. We always start with-- I had this cheese and sausage balls recipe. It's like--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my mom used to make those.

Gin Stephens: We have them every Christmas. My grandmother made them. It's cheddar cheese, spicy sausage, and like a Bisquick kind of thing. Although, this year, we didn't use Bisquick brand because I didn't have any, so, we got a different brand, and it actually was better. So, you just mix that together, and bake it, and they're so good. So, I started to eat. They came out of the oven at 9 AM and they're never as good as the moment they come out of the oven. Like, they're going to be okay later or they're still going to be delicious but never saw. I'm like, "All right, window open." So, I started at 9 AM and then, we went over to my dad's for-- we have a brunch every year. So, we had the brunch, came home and probably I wasn't hungry again.

You know, I did a little nibbling here and there while we were at the brunch. Like, "Ooh, I'm going to have this olive and ooh, I want to have this." They had these pickled green beans that were spicy and I loved them. So, I kept eating those green beans. [laughs] Eating early in the morning, then, I was so tired. So, like mid-afternoon it was like 2 o'clock, she's like, "Do you want me to make some more coffee?" My stepmother and I'm like, "Yes." So, because my window was open, I had like more of a hot milkshake kind of coffee. It was like dessert. So, then, I was even more tired [laughs] because of the sugar. And then, I came home and I wasn't hungry at all till probably, I don't know, I was hungry again and had dinner maybe at like 6 PM. Leftovers from Christmas Eve dinner. It wasn't a lot but then, I closed my window. I did have some champagne. Chad and I played cards.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Gin Stephens: Yeah. So, it was really like 9 AM to maybe 7 PM by the time I finished with the champagne.

Melanie Avalon: Dry Farm Wines?

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah. It was Dry Farm. It absolutely was.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't had their champagne. They send it to me sometimes. I haven't had it though. Is it good? I re-gift it because I'm not a champagne person.

Gin Stephens: Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, but my fridge is fully stocked right now. [laughs] So that was good. But even so, it felt like I was eating for like forever, but 9 AM to 7 PM is 10 hours and really that's not long. You know, like, people are like eight-hour window is fasting. So, anyway, a 10-hour window, it felt like the longest window ever. But today, I'm still fasting. So, right now, I'm at let me think about it. All the time we're recording, if I've been fasting since seven, I'm at 20 right now.

Melanie Avalon: It's so interesting how you know, if you have a more indulgent day, just how effective fasting can-- It really feels like it's just cleaning out. It can really, really quickly just reset you. I'm hesitant saying that because I think people can be like that you're trying to undo damage by over restricting and it's not that at all. It's just that when you have this fasted period, I'm just always really impressed by how fasting can make me feel.

Gin Stephens: Well, yeah, I think about ADF. Honestly, ADF is having an up day like yesterday, Christmas Day was like an up day, and then, today, I'm not having a down day today but I could. But that's the whole plan. Big eating day, small eating day, big eating day, small eating day, and you alternate it. It's not like you're binging and then making up for it, and binging and making up for it. I didn't binge yesterday. There was no binging. I ate longer, and more, and differently than I normally eat. Those green beans were probably one of the few vegetables I had. [laughs] Really, now that I think about it. Not a lot of vegetables on the plate. I did have pumpkin pie. Does that count? It's pumpkin. We're going to count it.

Melanie Avalon: Did you know that-- That's something else I learned. Oh, did you get your Farmer Lee Jones book?

Gin Stephens: I did. Oh, my God. That's a beautiful book.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it amazing?

Gin Stephens: Yes. It's really an encyclopedia of vegetables. That's how I described it. I have a friend who lives in UK. Shoutout to Lucy. She teaches cooking and she's a chef herself, and she always has the most beautiful food. She's in my Delay, Don’t Deny Community and was a Facebook moderator before that. So, I've known her for a while. But I was like, "Lucy, you need this book." She's like, "Well, I'm on cookbook restriction. I'm not allowed to get any more cookbooks." I'm like, "Well, this is not a cookbook, even though, it has recipes. I would not call it a cookbook." So, she asked for it for Christmas and I'm pretty sure she got it.

Melanie Avalon: The reason I'm thinking about it, I think he says that the majority of canned pumpkin, I think it's not pumpkin. I think that's yam, usually.

Gin Stephens: Well, I don't care. I had yam. Whatever I had, it was orange and delicious. I have the best pumpkin pie recipe that I just found this here. It is so good. You know, how most pumpkin pie has a regular crust?

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

Gin Stephens: I'm now making it. I thought, wouldn't it be good with Graham cracker crust? So, I googled it to see if anyone had had that idea and I found, you know, Bobby Flay?

Melanie Avalon: Wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought they are always Graham cracker crust. I thought I was going to say.

Gin Stephens: No, uh-huh, pumpkin pie is usually regular crust.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's funny. You said that and I was like, "Yeah, Graham cracker crust."

Gin Stephens: Maybe, that's the way your parents, your mom makes it. I don't know. But I've never seen it that way and our family, it's always just a regular crust. So, it's like, blah, you know? So, I googled that and it was a throwdown. He had that throwdown where he would have people competing to make the best pumpkin pie and this was, I think, the winning recipe. And of course, I did tweak the spices that I used a little bit. I did a little bit differently but homemade Graham cracker crust, I will never buy a Graham cracker crust again. I'd never made one from scratch. I mean, you're still starting with Graham crackers, right? But it's still, it's Clean(ish) because even though, they're processed Graham crackers, you're using real butter. Hence, it's got a lot fewer additives like a premade Graham cracker crust would. And it was so much more delicious. And then, the pumpkin filling, it's like real pumpkin, and heavy cream, and pumpkin pie spice, and oh, my God, it was good. Egg.

Melanie Avalon: It's really funny. I know, we're like way over time but one more thing. One of the brands sent me a, it was like a credit for this, what was it called? Treat box or something. And you can go online and pick out what you want, and it's a lot of like normal stuff that people would get in treat boxes, like treats, and cheese, and fun little gadgets. But they had a meat and seafood section. I see why they do it, why the company does it because you can get more than the credit they gave you. So, you can make the box even bigger. So, I got for the box. I got wild caught salmon, and scallops, and cod, and it ended up costing me so much money because I was like, "Oh, I want all of this."

Gin Stephens: Yeah, that's how they get you.

Melanie Avalon: I know. But it was pretty funny. That's a good Christmas gift. So, all right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike, and then, again, the show notes, which we'll have links to everything we talked about will be at ifpodcast.com/episode247. Alrighty. Well, anything from you, Gin, before we go?

Gin Stephens: No, I think that's it. I did just yawn because after having such a big eating day, I'm not quite as glycogen depleted as I usually am at hour 20.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I hear yeah. I'm going to tell you right before hang up one of the presents that I got that you will think is funny.

Gin Stephens: Ooh, I can't wait to hear it.

Melanie Avalon: But listeners can't know.

Gin Stephens: Oh. [laughs] Dun, dun, dun. All right.

Melanie Avalon: All right. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Gin Stephens: All right. Bye-bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

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