Jun 18

Episode 322: Genetic Testing, Blood Testing, Food Allergies, Medical Care, Leptin Resistance, Insulin Resistance, Nutrient Deficiency, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Flank Steak For Free In Every Box For 3 Months Plus $20 Off Your First Order!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
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AVALONX BERBERINE: This Natural, Potent Anti-Inflammatory Plant Alkaloid Reduces Blood Sugar And Blood Lipids, Aids Weight Loss, Supports A Healthy Body Composition, Stimulates AMPK And Autophagy, Benefits Gut Bacteria And GI Health, And More! Help Us Release What Works Best For You! On 7/07 At 7pm EST Select Your Favorite Option For The Pre-Launch Of The Berberine Big Bottle Subscription! 
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go to toneprotein.com to stay up to date on vanessa's new protein supplement!

Listener Q&A: dina - Blood Test

AG1: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At drinkAG1.com/ifpodcast!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #117 - Tim Spector

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NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Niki - Leptin Resistance

Mitochondrial Health Series: Fructose & Dr. Rick Johnson Recap (Part 1) Optimal Protein Podcast (Fast Keto) with Vanessa Spina

How to Start the Leptin Reset and Regain Leptin Sensitivity

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 322 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like it's been so long.

Vanessa Spina: It feels like ages. Like, I'm so happy that we're back at it.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. So, what is new in your life? You've been gallivanting about the world?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We just got back from absolutely stunning Greek Islands, which is one of our favorite places to go. And we go to this absolutely beautiful resort. It's actually a design hotel, but it's for families and young kids mostly, so everyone there has a one- or two-year-old or multiples. And it's really fun because it makes it so easy and casual to go to eat because they have baby seats already set up. And then if your kid makes a mess, like, you don't care, because they're used to doing that. And if your kid screams, there're two other kids who are screaming more. So, it's very nice to just be in that environment. And it's super easy because we do like this halfboards, they have breakfast and dinner, and it is one of the most phenomenal buffets I've ever experienced. It's just such high-quality food and it's Greek food, which is amazing.

We just had an incredible time. And they have this thing every night called the baby disco. So, after dinner, we usually go and watch the sunset at the beach. And then at 8:15, all the babies and the parents gather in this area they call the place. They also have movies and stuff there, and they do baby disco for like half an hour and they just do songs and all the babies dance along. And so, at the beginning, Luca was really overwhelmed and at the end, he was, like, doing all the moves and it was so adorable. It's some of the most adorable videos I've ever taken of him.

At one point, they all had sombreros on and they were dancing along to the music and it was so unbelievably cute. And then the babies, some of them like, one of this-- one girl tried to dance with Luca and was kissing him. It's just like so cute because they're like 1.5. It's the most adorable thing ever. So, we had an incredible time, like recharge, all the sun, all the grounding in the water, playing on the beach all day, swimming in the ocean. I feel incredible right now.

Melanie Avalon: That's so amazing.

Vanessa Spina: I was telling you I was thinking of you while we're there.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm so excited to hear.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, this buffet, I'm telling you, it's amazing. Of course, they have all the things. The breakfast buffet is, like, insane. And the dinner every night is different and it's just, like, never-ending and just so amazing. But every morning and every night, they have this station near the salads, and they have several different types of cucumbers. And they're all peeled, and some of them are in sections, like long sections, others are in just slices, and then they have cubed. And this is like a cucumber, just like this cucumber section. I love cucumbers. Like, sometimes just the seeds, like the seeded part in the middle, and they have these long stems of them and stuff. So, every time I went to get cucumbers, I was laughing. Melanie would love this as well. It's just like it all peeled for you, all sliced, all done and it's like unlimited.

Melanie Avalon: And it's different types of cucumbers?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they have a few different types. And then, of course, because it's Greece, they have Greek salad every night, which is, like, basically cucumber base. And then like, fresh feta and peppers and tomatoes and stuff. But it's just like the freshest food, so amazing. But the cucumbers are like it's just so nice to just-- I don't know, have a break from cooking, have a break from meal prep. And I was like, "Melanie would definitely appreciate this cucumber situation as well."

Melanie Avalon: I would wipe out that section, it would be gone.

Vanessa Spina: And they have amazing fresh fish, like every night, fresh seafood. Yeah, it's a dream.

Melanie Avalon: They have blueberries?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, actually, no, they didn't have blueberries because they're not in season there, but they had fresh strawberries and they grow a lot of the food that they serve there on the property gardens. So, it's so organic. They have this amazing organic garden that you can go tour and it's really high quality, amazing food. So, whatever diet you're doing, you can keep up. And then I switch up my intermittent fasting when we're there. And I do the breakfast and then fast till dinner. So, yeah, it's awesome. But how have you been?

Melanie Avalon: I've been good. Do you want to help me with my current conundrum?

Vanessa Spina: Of course.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I don't know if I should share this because I feel like it's going to make me sound crazy and neurotic, but I guess we're way past that point anyways. Okay. So, I love wine right. At home honestly, I only drink Dry Farm Wines, which listeners have heard me talk about all the time. I guess they don't deliver to Europe.

Vanessa Spina: I tried it at KetoCon once.

Melanie Avalon: That was a while ago, probably, right.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I had a friend who at some point she wanted to set one up over here. They really should.

Melanie Avalon: To do European delivery. Yeah. So, basically, for listeners who aren't familiar, it's not like a brand of wine. They go all throughout Europe and they find all the wineries that are practicing organic practices, and then they test the wines to make sure that they are low sugar, low alcohol, organic, free of mold, free of toxins, all the things. So, it's really only the wine I drink because it is what makes me feel really amazing still the next day. So, when I go out, I just look and I think I've talked about this at length, but when I go out, I just look up all the wines on the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic at whatever given restaurant because normally if it's like a nice restaurant and you look up all the wines.

Normally some of the wineries are practicing organic practices. And then I normally even go one step further and I'll try to find that alcohol content and try to find ones that are 13% or less alcohol by volume. Dry Farm Wines is 12.5% or less. In any case that's what works for me. But coming up is my brother's wedding this weekend. So, it's the rehearsal dinner on Friday and then the wedding on Saturday, which Vanessa, it is not my skill set to go out and do something very social two nights in a row. It's just not, I cap out at like once per week.

Vanessa Spina: I can relate.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, like, going out and it's funny because I'm an introvert and I love going out. I love it. But I have to recover the next day. I'm already a little stressed at, like, going because it's far. It's like an hour and a half away. So, going to the rehearsal dinner, coming back an hour and a half, going to bed, rinse and repeat, an hour and a half, there wedding, and then coming back. So, all of that to say, if it was just one event, I would just suck it up and drink the wine. If I was just going to the wedding, I would drink the wine there. It'll be fine, live and let live. But I don't want to drink nonorganic wine on the rehearsal dinner and then go to the wedding the next day because I don't know how it'll make me feel.

Melanie Avalon: And like, literally, it's not like I go crazy. I just don't feel well now when I don't drink organic wine. So, the question is, at the rehearsal dinner. Can I bring up my own bottle of wine?

Vanessa Spina: Why not? I mean--

Melanie Avalon: Here's the caveat. It's at a winery.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh. Yikes.

Melanie Avalon: Can I hide it in my purse and then pour the wine in the trash?

Vanessa Spina: No, that's legit. Something I would do. I would put it in a nondescript bottle or something and just bring it because no one would really know or care. But I'm very specific about certain things like that. And I would say if it was anywhere other than a winery, go for it. But yeah, if it is at a winery, what I would do would probably be to put it in something else, like a water bottle, something that looks like a water bottle and just like.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I have my wine bottle. So, like, when I went and saw Moulin Rouge, I got this amazing Moulin Rouge aluminum water bottle, but it's actually my wine bottle. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: That's perfect. You're all set.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so maybe I'll just do that. Although people are going to be like because the Dry Farm Wines wine is very light. It doesn't look dark. People might be like, "Where is that from?" Like "I don't know."

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would just, like, be like, "Look over there." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Mm, what? Okay.

Vanessa Spina: Just ask them a question about themselves and yeah, they'll instantly be distracted.

Melanie Avalon: This is true. One of my friends, actually, Scott, my business partner, I was asking him, he's like, "Just bring a 20, go up to the server beforehand, can you just fill my glass with this wine instead?"

Vanessa Spina: That's a great idea. I would go with either of those. But it depends on how the wait staff is. If the wait staff works for the winery or if they're contracted in or something because they might have rules about that. And you're like going up to the owner's son or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man. So, the things I stress about. And again, if it was just like the one event, I would just suck it up. But I want to feel really sparkly at the wedding.

Vanessa Spina: You should, it's your brother's wedding.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Everybody else is staying down there, but as you know, traveling stresses me out. So, literally, that's why I'm like going there, coming back, going there, coming back.

Vanessa Spina: You got to do what works for you and not worry about what anyone else thinks.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Thank you. For listeners though, so, if you'd like to get your own Dry Farm Wines, you can get it at dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that gets you a bottle for a penny. Okay, I have one announcement, but just first, do you go to a lot of weddings? Are weddings different in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, we had our wedding here and it was amazing. It was like a fairy tale.

Melanie Avalon: Was it at a castle?

Vanessa Spina: We had it in this beautiful place called the Hall of Mirrors, which is like this incredible chapel. It looked like an Italian just frescoed, just absolutely stunning roof and room and everything. But we took a horse-drawn carriage after from there, all through the city, like through this main town, old town, over the bridge and then to the Mandarin where we had our reception. And I just felt like a princess because we had the horse-drawn carriage.

There're just so many things about Prague that are like a fairy tale. Weddings are pretty much the same here. They have some different traditions, but they're not all that different. It's definitely wedding season now because there's like a stag party or a stagette or a hen's party. People call it that in England.

Melanie Avalon: Is that like a bachelor party wait, a stag's party? What is that?

Vanessa Spina: Stag is like yeah, bachelor party, stagette. And then they also like there's a lot of Brits that come here for those events and some of them are called like a hen something like for the women, I don't know all the terms, but you regularly just see people in crazy costumes like if they're with their guy friends or things like on their stagette or stag party.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, awesome. Because I feel like I have a lot of family in Germany and I feel like they talk about weddings being days and days long.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, definitely traditional Czech weddings can be like that.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay, well, one quick announcement for listeners because we finally just made a decision about this. We were really on the fence. I have four supplements out to date. And the last thing we did, I think maybe or I don't know if it was this last or the Magnesium Nightcap, but in any case, we released a large bottle subscription option for my serrapeptase. And the benefits of that is it's more sustainable for the environment because it's less bottles, less shipping costs and it saves money for everybody. So, everybody wins. Helps your wallet, helps the planet. All good things.

We don't currently have a subscription out for berberine, which I love berberine. For listeners who are concerned with their blood glucose levels, it is amazing for modulating blood sugar levels, it's been found to be comparable to metformin, the pharmaceutical. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that, like cholesterol lowering. It can even support longevity pathways like AMPK, which is something that we talk about a lot with fasting. So that's super cool. Beneficial effects on the gut microbiome. All cool things. I've been getting a lot of requests for a subscription for it. And we wanted to do the large bottle because people were loving the large bottle idea. But here's the thing. We aren't quite sure how people are currently taking it. We don't know how often, how many because people seem to be all over the place. The general recommendation is two of them before meals. You could do that once or twice a day. We don't know what size bottle to create and how many capsules to put in it.

So, what we're going to do is we're going to do a special trial launch special where you guys get to help us know what you want when it comes to a large bottle. Okay, so July 7 at 07:00 P.M., we're going to launch berberine subscriptions with two options. So, you can either get two bottles of the normal bottles every two months or three bottles of the normal bottles every three months. That will help us know sort of how often you guys are wanting to get the berberine and how many. And from there we'll make the large bottles.

Hopefully, that wasn't confusing. Basically, this is a chance for A, you to get an amazing launch special on the subscription and help us figure out what you guys want so we can make the best large bottle option possible. And just in case you're wondering, I've learned so much about the supplement industry. Like, before this, I would have been like, it's no big deal. Can't you just make multiple options? But friends, it is not that easy. You're like committing to order numbers and it's basically a pretty solid decision that we have to make. So that's why we're doing this trial run.

So, you can get updates at avalonx.us/emaillist or text updates by texting AVALONX to 877-861-8318. And doing that also gets you a 20% off coupon code. Okay. That was so long. Yes, Vanessa, I'm excited for you to maybe enter the supplement world with me.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. Yeah, I'm super excited for the first one, Tone Protein. And yeah, I think it's going to be just really exciting. I love creating things and just like creating all the things that go with it, especially the design aspects. It's just such a satisfying process to create something, especially when it's something that you feel passionately about, like mitochondrial health or ketones or protein or serrapeptase or magnesium. It really lines up with your values and what you are passionate about. So, I think it's really thrilling. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: And how can listeners get on your email list for updates about what you'll be creating?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, if you go to toneprotein.com, you can sign up to be the first to know when we announce and release and also get access to exclusive sales and promotions and all the things. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. And for listeners, something I love about Vanessa, you're just such a boss woman. Like, "Anytime I text you about anything, I don't even blink and then it's done." You're like "I'm doing it. You're amazing."

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for saying that. Sometimes I just feel like I'm running all these businesses, like, flying by the seat of my pants. So, it feels really nice to hear that. And yeah, thank you.

Melanie Avalon: You know, you're really efficient at executing things and you're doing it all with a child, which blows my mind.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: But in any case, shall we jump into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. I was previewing the questions yesterday and was really excited for these ones.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, would you like to read the first one?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. We have a question from Dina, and the subject is a blood test. "Hello. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommend to figure out which foods suit me best? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Dina. Thank you for your question or Dina. Dina. What did you say? What do you think it is?

Vanessa Spina: Dina.

Melanie Avalon: Dina, probably.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Dina. Dina. So I have a curveball answer for this question. I wonder if you can guess.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I know you work with InsideTracker. We work with InsideTracker, but I also know, like, you did a bunch of testing with was it the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Mm. Okay. "Oh, that didn't even occur to me. Okay, that's a good one, too. Okay, you're very close." So, I will talk about InsideTracker as well. But actually, because when people think of what foods work for them, they're wanting to do a blood test. Often they're thinking of things like Dina said, so, like an IgG sensitivity blood test or an IgE panel. To clarify, IgE would be-- that's more "concrete." So, if you do an IgE blood panel, which is something that even a conventional doctor is probably more likely to test, that will show you what you are actually allergic to.

So, for example, I'm allergic to wheat, which was so exciting when I found out because I'd been gluten-free way before that. So, then I felt like I officially could say no to gluten-containing things. I do know that there's more to wheat than just gluten, but in any case and then I have an IgE reaction to sesame. Do you know if you have any IgE food allergies?

Vanessa Spina: My main one is gluten.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah. So that's IgE, then there's IgG, which is a very debated food sensitivity topic. The debate is because basically, IgG are markers of the immune system's memory to things that you've been exposed to, like, often foods. And some people say that you have IgG just to things that you're eating anyways, that doesn't necessarily indicate an allergy or a sensitivity. Other people say that if you have a sealed gut, you wouldn't be reacting to those proteins. So, it's a whole debate. I don't know. Where do you stand on that debate, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I don't really have an opinion on it, actually. I don't think I know enough about it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, that's a nice place too because it's stressful. [laughs] Also, I really respect you in saying. Maybe we talked about this, one of my favorite things is just reserving the right to not have an opinion, especially in today's world, where everybody has an opinion about everything all the time. So, I love that concept. You don't have to have an opinion. It's very freeing. So that's that world honestly. And I realized I opened this by saying I was going to give my answer and I went on a rabbit hole. But for the IgG, I don't really have a go-to recommendation. Historically, I have done a few different ones, but honestly, I don't have a go-to for that. And then genetic testing. So, I'll circle back to InsideTracker because they do provide that.

But all of that to say the first thing I think of when it comes to food reactions is actually wearing a CGM. So, that does relate to ZOE like Vanessa was saying. And the reason I recommend that is because if you're wearing a continuous glucose monitor, you're going to see how different foods are affecting your blood sugar. So not necessarily an allergy per se or a sensitivity per se, but you are going to see what foods are suiting you because it's going to show you metabolically with your metabolic health, what is best supporting your blood sugar levels so that you're not getting crazy spikes or so that your blood sugar is not staying elevated. On top of that, some people will also say-- I feel like Vanessa, did you maybe talk about this in your book? Some people will say that "If you do have a sensitivity to a food, you might get a blood sugar spike just from the sensitivity aspect of it."

Vanessa Spina: I did talk about it in the book. I'm pretty sure.

Melanie Avalon: I think you did. Do you still feel that way or do you not have an opinion?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I think it's really interesting because you can get so much insight from measuring your blood glucose. And I think that it's definitely like one form of feedback. Like, I wouldn't say it's the be all end all, but if your blood glucose is spiking after something that maybe shouldn't necessarily be spiking so much after, it could give you some insight. But I remember it was one of the things I would get the most questions about that people were like, "Can I use this to identify sensitivities?" I just find the interpersonal variability on reactions to foods to be fascinating, but, yeah, it could definitely maybe signal something to look into more.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there's that. And then I know some people. I haven't sat down and done a test for this, but I have noticed it after eating, if you feel like your blood pressure is going up or you get an adrenaline response, that can often be a sign of reacting to the food. And then I don't remember who talked about this. "Oh, man, I wish I could remember." I was like, "Whoa, that's crazy." One person was saying what you could do. "Oh, man. Okay, make sure I say this correctly." It had to do with time perception. I'm going to have to find it. It was something about using a met, is it a metronome? Something that taps for time? Metronome?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there's one on my-- I'm not a musical person. Metronome sets like the pace, yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I'm going to have to circle back to this and figure out what they said. But it was something about using a metronome for time perception before or after eating a food. And if you are reacting to the food, you would perceive the time differently because of the adrenaline response. I was like, "Whoa, that's next level." [laughs] It's next level. So, in any case, ZOE actually would be a really good example. I'm so glad you mentioned that. I had Tim Spector on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. Have you had him on the Optimal Protein podcast?

Vanessa Spina: I haven't, no.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if you'd like me to connect you to him.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon: So, he has the ZOE program and they actually pair up a CGM with a food. So basically, you eat these-- We've talked about it a lot in the show. You eat these muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God the muffins.

Melanie Avalon: So, you've done it?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I remember listening that "You had to eat the muffins and you were like, I'm going to get to it." You were maybe stalling on it a bit or something.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I was majorly stalling because I knew it was going to be after fasting for so long. After not eating processed food for so long, the idea of sitting down, eating a processed sugary fatty confection, and then just sitting with that and not like "I knew it was going to majorly create cravings." And then I was going to have to not eat. This is going to be miserable.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon: And I remember you might have been listening, but Gin and I kept debating because Gin was like, "You're going to hate the muffins." And I was like, "I'm going to love the muffins."

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I remember, you talking about that. And I was like, "She's probably going to love the muffins."

Melanie Avalon: That muffin, Vanessa, I still think about it, "Oh, it was so good."

Vanessa Spina: Was it because she didn't think they were that great?

Melanie Avalon: She said it was hard to finish them.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, but if your receptors have been totally reset from not eating any confectionery like that, even the most basic, gluten-free, basic muffin would probably taste amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, it literally, I watched my brain light up like a drug. I was like, "This is a drug." [laughs] And then it was so sad. I had one bite and I was so sad because I was like, "This feels amazing and it's going to be over soon." And then I have to sit there. [laughs] It was so awful. Oh, man. And then interestingly, I did do a poll in my Facebook group after, and I asked people. There was like four options. It was, "Do you eat processed foods? Did you like the muffins? Do you eat processed foods? Did you not like the muffins? Do you not eat processed food? Did you like the muffins? Do you not eat processed foods? Do you not like the muffins?" And it was exactly what I predicted. People who normally eat processed foods did not like the muffins, and people who don't eat processed foods liked the muffins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would have guessed that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. All that to say with that experiment, it actually helps, you know, how you clear carbs and fat. So, do you clear carbs better from the bloodstream or fat? And I actually have some thoughts about there.

Vanessa Spina: What were your results? I don't think I ever heard.

Melanie Avalon: It was what I thought, that I am better with fats, actually.

Vanessa Spina: That's interesting because I remember, I think Gin found out that it confirmed that she would not be optimal for keto or something like that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

Vanessa Spina: I remember her saying it was showing that's why all those years ago when she tried keto, it didn't work for her. And now she knows that it's because she doesn't clear the fat well.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she did have a whole thing with that. My primary issue with the program and I think it's a great program, and I talked to Tim about this when I interviewed him. But my primary thing is that the conclusion they draw if you don't clear fat well-- there's not a low-carb muffin. There's no setup for people to clear fat in the absence of carbs. But it's a higher carb, lower fat, and then it's a higher fat lower carb, but it's not low carb. I don't know if you can get the information that you need from it. And then on top of that, the irony is that it might say that you're not good at clearing fat and that might actually mean that a low-carb diet would be really good for you because it's signaling that you need a different context to deal with fat. This is just my opinion.

So, the conclusion they draw, like, if you don't clear fat well, you should not be having fat. I think some people, those might actually be the perfect people to go on a low-carb diet. Not necessarily a high-fat diet, but a low-carb diet, which is the opposite of what they recommend. All of that to say, "Oh, you also get a gut microbiome test with it." So, all of that to say, this is getting very long links for people. If you would like to get a CGM, get NutriSense and you can save $30, just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, and that will save you $30, and it will get you one month of free dietitian support. And what I love about NutriSense, people love the dietitian support option. It's super cool from your results and it's optional, of course, you don't have to talk to anybody.

But it gives you so much data. Like, when you download the app, there's just so much data there, it can be hard to interpret it or know what it means. Did I even say what a CGM is? I don't know if I did. It's something that you put on your arm, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid around the cells constantly. So, you get a continuous picture of your blood sugar levels, 24/7 for two weeks. So, it's very telling. And like I said, it will really help show what foods are appropriate for you. So, $30 off with the code IFPODCAST at nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and that will get you one month of free dietitian support. And if you would like to try ZOE, I thought we had an IFPODCAST code, but I'm not finding it. So, you can actually use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON10 and that will get you 10% off their program.

And then lastly, for blood and genetic tests, I do love InsideTracker. On the blood side of things, they're not going to give you food sensitivity options. It's more about biomarkers related to metabolic health, longevity, all of those things. It's all the things you really need to be testing to get a clear picture of your health, your metabolic status, but gives you something called your inner age, which is your, "biological age." And so, you can see how young you are on the inside and you can track your levels of everything over time, which is a game changer for me. And they actually just added some women's biomarkers, which is super cool. So, they added estrogen, progesterone, and TSH. And then right before that, they had recently added ApoB, which I'm very excited about. "Oh, I have a really quick story, Vanessa." So, doctors in Prague? Is the whole medical system completely different or is it similar?"

Vanessa Spina: It's quite different, I would say, but in some good ways and some negative ways. It's quite different.

Melanie Avalon: Do you guys have insurance companies?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, everyone who's here has to have state insurance and they used to have private insurance companies. Now they're like debating in Parliament what they're doing with that. But what's fascinating is that if you go to the hospital, when we first got here, I spilled hot tea on my leg and we had to go to the emergency, and I paid just cash at the hospital for being seen by the doctor and getting medication. It was like $4.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Really?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, because they still have this state sort of communist-style medical system where no one pays for medical, and they don't have the same systems where the prices get inflated and stuff too, by all the insurers. So even if you're here and you don't have insurance and something happens to you, you will never go bankrupt or broke or something like that because something happens, and then they really are not like a litigious society. So, I always find this funny, but say you slip and fall on someone's property, like in North America, sometimes people sue for that. You can't sue for damages. There's a schedule of-- if you broke your knee or you twisted your ankle, you get this much money, you just get a small fee, but it's all preset instead of these crazy settlements and stuff. So, it's quite different. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Does that work well, because it just stops people from-- I don't know like all this-- I don't want to say drama because justice can be served, but I don't know, does it make things easier?

Vanessa Spina: I think in a way it sets like a tone of self-responsibility. So, it's like, okay, if something happens, it's more so about your self-responsibility. If you spilled a hot beverage on yourself from a place, even if they didn't have a warning label on it, you could never sue for millions or something like that. They would just throw you out. They would just, like, laugh you out, of there because they'd be like, well, you spilled the coffee. There're a lot of things that they have different mindset mentality about. But it's really interesting as a North American to be an expat and compare and contrast the two systems because there's also things about it here that I really don't love. When you give birth, you don't necessarily have a private room assigned to you. It's only if there's enough private rooms. And that's one of the leftovers of that socialist system that is like, weird, where you'd be like, well, why don't they just give everyone a private room? So, there're definitely things that I love and things I don't love as much.

Melanie Avalon: And you had Luca there?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I gave birth to him here and it was a wonderful experience and we're lucky that we ended up getting private rooms so that we could all be together, because during COVID if you didn't have a private room, your partner just couldn't be there at all.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, I have a lot of friends here who had really bad experiences where their partner couldn't be there or could just come for an hour or two for visiting hours. Things got so wonky all over the world during COVID. But yeah, that was, like, a very stressful thing. So, I was like, "Oh, my God, I hope we get a private room and you can be there with us." And luckily, we did get that. But I definitely had thoughts at times of just, like, going back to Canada, North America, and giving birth there, but we were at a really top hospital.

Melanie Avalon: What year did you have him in?

Vanessa Spina: In 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you have to wear a mask during delivery?

Vanessa Spina: No, thank God. It was, like, right after that. But yeah, there were definitely situations that people went through that were just so horrible, like, having to wear a mask during labor. I've heard some stories that are just pretty horrendous, but yeah, thankfully everything is pretty much back to normal now. But yeah, totally different systems. But why do you ask?

Melanie Avalon: Quick question. How long were you in labor?

Vanessa Spina: I was in labor for like two and a half days.

Melanie Avalon: I can't do it.

Vanessa Spina: No, it's fine. My whole life my biggest fear was childbirth.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's my biggest fear. [laughs] That's why I'm--

Vanessa Spina: Every time I would be like, in a stressful situation, I'd be like, "Well, at least I'm not pregnant right now. I don't have to give birth." Like, it would always make me feel better, but your body's built to do it, which in the end made me feel better. But I actually had to be induced. My pregnancy was so amazing and seamless and smooth, but I didn't like, Luca just wasn't coming out, and he was like two weeks late, so I had to be induced. And then I wasn't progressing. And then his heartbeat started slowing. So, after like, two and a half days, I just got so exhausted. And the doctor was like, I think we should do a C-section now before it gets more complicated and stressful and have to be unconscious. So, I was like, "Okay, let's just do it." And it ended up being amazing. I barely have a C-section scar, recovery went really well and also used red light for my recovery. And I have no C-section scar, but I'm going on so many tangents right now.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I love it. Man, I feel like if I had a baby, I'd like, outfit that delivery room, be like, let's bring in the red light, some cold therapy.

Vanessa Spina: I'm definitely bringing it this time because I started the red-light therapy quite a bit after giving birth and having the scar, and I still can like, you can barely see that I even have a scar. It's crazy. So, I only imagine just the internal and external healing that'll happen this time that I've got all these super powerful panels and I'm going to bring one with me. And yeah, it's definitely like, we'll see how things go the next time around. But yeah, I definitely could see you outfitting your room with a whole bunch of biohacking tools and things.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Wow. And did you have your red light at that time, your product?

Vanessa Spina: No, it was before that. I was still, like, researching at that point, so I think I had a different red light, but I didn't think about it at the time to use it.

Melanie Avalon: So many things. And how can people get your panels? What's your link?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you. The panels that I created are called the Tone Lux and they are at ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out the three panels that I have there and yeah, thank you, for asking.

Melanie Avalon: I thought about it. Although now I have one other tangent. I am so sorry. When you spilled the tea on your knee, whenever I hear that, I think about the time that I spilled on my knee, because I feel like people hear that they're like, "Oh, that's not bad." "No, if you have spilled coffee or tea, it is the most painful thing."

Vanessa Spina: I can't believe that happened to you, too.

Melanie Avalon: It was coffee, but yeah, and the memory from it you know when you have a memory that's so impactful, it's in slow motion in your head?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Just like assuming.

Vanessa Spina: I know, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

Melanie Avalon: This is on my list. There're a few key memories where I've seen very attractive people and it's in slow motion in my head. And I had this memory of spilling the coffee on my knee at the car shop in Santa Monica and them calling the ambulance. And then I just remember the ENT coming in slow motion and he was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. And I just have this vision in my head. So, every time I hear tea spilled, I'm like, beautiful, attractive ENT man running to my rescue.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. Yeah, it's one of the most painful things I've ever experienced.

Melanie Avalon: It's so painful. How did you spill it?

Vanessa Spina: We were in the car and went through a drive-through and I got hot tea, and I think I just put it between my knees for a second or something like that, and then I can't remember exactly what happened, but, yeah, it spilled all over my leg. And it's crazy because at first, you're like, "Oh, that hurts. That hurts a lot." But it's later that it gets so much worse.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I remember I spilled-- I don't know how I did it, but I spilled a whole thing of coffee. And at first, it was like this really intense pain, but I was like, "Oh, it's fine." Do you want us to call an ambulance? I was like, no, it's fine. And then I sat there and then I started getting nauseous, and I was like, "Okay, maybe this is not fine."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, good times. Good times in life. So, the reason I was asking about the doctor situation. So here I do have a conventional doctor through my insurance and I think I've talked about this before as well, but it's hard to find I know, for instance, it is hard to find a conventional doctor who tests what you want to be testing. And I don't want to judge the whole system, but I have personally found it hard to find a doctor who is really in line with my thinking who's on my insurance.

So, where I have landed is I have found a conventional doctor through my insurance. So, everything's covered, who will literally just test whatever I want him to test? Like, I don't think he really knows or cares. So, what do you want to test? And I just give them a laundry list and then they just check it all off. But the reason I thought about this, I was talking about InsideTracker and ApoB. I don't get my blood drawn at the office because I have in the past fainted.

So, I'd like to just go where I like to go, which is a certain Labcorp. Like, I like my routine, so they give me the order form and then I leave. And every time they give me the order form where they filled it out per my recommendations. And then I see all the other tests I want on it. And I'm like, can I just click off these boxes?

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I like the claim. You think they'll remember that I didn't.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: So last time the one I saw was ApoB. And I was like, "Ha, I just want to check the box."

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I did not, though. So, I'll just get it from InsideTracker. To wrap this all up. "Oh, my gosh. I've talked the whole episode with this one question and you haven't even answered yet?". Okay, so InsideTracker, they do have blood testing and they have genetic testing as well. And what's really cool is they will show you when you get back your blood results what your genetic tendencies are. So, you know if you're doing worse or better than your genetics might indicate, because as we know or maybe we don't, but I think it's becoming more well known that epigenetics are highly much more influential than genetics. So, just if you have a genetic tendency towards something doesn't mean that you are destined to that, your diet and lifestyle have a much more profound effect even genes that people think are deterministic.

So, for example, people often think that the ApoE4 gene for Alzheimer's is deterministic, but it actually is not. It's actually something that people can really take agency with their diet and lifestyle. If you would like to try InsideTracker, our link for that is you can get 20% off their plan. Just go to insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. So that's 20% off at insidetracker.com/ifpodcast. And I will say one last thing. One of my favorite things about InsideTracker is you can upload your own labs as well. So, for example, those results that I get back from my doctor, I upload them into the portal and you can see over time, you can track everything. And it's been a game changer for me. It makes charts, it makes graphs. It really just gives me sanity and peace when it comes to my blood work. So, Dina, you were probably hoping I was going to give you a food sensitivity test and I did not. So, Vanessa, what are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina: No, I think she was asking about the stuff that you've talked about before.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, you think so?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I didn't actually prepare an answer because I don't have any to recommend. And as soon as I saw the question, I was like, "Oh, she's probably asking about what the ZOE one is?" Because I know you guys talked about it a lot in the past or maybe it was InsideTracker, but I could be wrong. Dina, I apologize if I'm wrong, but I think Dina is asking about the one that you have recommended in the past about the ZOE.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, right, because it's written in past tense. What is the blood test or genetic testing that you recommended? Ooh. Well, that was a nice recap then. Okay. Shall we answer another question?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: And this one is much more in Vanessa's court. So. this comes from Nikki. The subject is leptin resistance, and Nikki says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. I suspect I have leptin resistance in addition to insulin resistance, and I was wondering if you can give some advice on how to tackle this. I know some say to do low carb, but by way of background, I have a history of very restrictive dieting in my 20s, which then led to years of binge eating disorder. While I am no longer binging, I don't restrict foods because it would trigger binge eating. I practice intuitive eating and food freedom but within the context of prioritizing protein and crowding out the more processed foods as much as possible. So, while I do eat pretty well, going keto or low carb isn't really an option for me. But I do have Vanessa's Tone device, and I get into, "Light fat-burning mode every day." So, I don't want to think my carbs are out of control." And I do want to clarify for listeners because we've mentioned Tone now twice with Vanessa, but it's actually not this thing. So, we mentioned her tone protein and we mentioned her tone red light panels. This is actually her Tone ketone breath analyzer device. Is that also the same link that you gave?

Vanessa Spina: It's also @ketogenicgirl yes, it's the tone device, the original tone device.

Melanie Avalon: So different thing there. So, she says, "I do have Vanessa's Tone device and I get into light fat-burning mode every day, so I don't think my carbs are out of control. The other advice I hear is to stop eating after dark, but that's easier said than done when you're hungry at night due to the leptin resistance. I always feel hungry right before bed, even when I've had a great day of nourishing food. No amount of protein makes me not hungry at night LOL. Will more aggressive fasting 24-plus hour fast lower my leptin levels like they lower insulin levels? Do you have any other suggestions for how to tackle this problem?" Thanks, ladies. Nikki. So, this is a Vanessa question.

Vanessa Spina: I really love this question. Hi, Nikki. Thank you for submitting this question and providing so much background. Now, leptin is such a fascinating hormone because it's a more recently discovered hormone. So, we're still learning so much about it. And I definitely talk about it on my other podcast, Optimal Protein podcast, quite a bit. And I think that keto, as you mentioned, is definitely a great tool for lowering leptin. But I do have some other tips for you.

The first one would be to test your leptin levels because then you can really know for sure if you have leptin resistance. So, actually, Dr. Rick Johnson, I interviewed him. One of the interviews I did with him on the podcast, he talked about the specific range of leptin that you should look for for it to be optimal. So, I have to find that episode for you. But the first thing I would do is test because you said that you suspect that you have leptin resistance and insulin resistance. But I think it'd be good to confirm it to know because then you can know if these strategies and tools will sort of help with that.

What's so interesting about leptin is that you kind of want to have this sort of Goldilocks amount of it. You don't want to have too little leptin you don't want to have too much. And leptin is basically secreted from our fat cells, especially after we eat. And they are supposed to signal to the brain when they dock on the leptin receptors in the brain that we should stop eating now because we have enough fuel on board. And the fact that you said that you have this sort of insatiable hunger at night, sounds like it could potentially be connected to that.

And so, if your leptin signaling is blocked and what's really fascinating is if you have insulin resistance, insulin actually competes at a similar receptor site for leptin. So, if you have a lot of insulin floating around, then you could potentially be impeding that docking, that leptin docking. So, the brain is not getting the signal that you have enough energy and also, you're not able to then turn on sort of the fat burning as well, which is what happens in a lot of cases with obese people, is that it's a problem with leptin signaling.

So, one of the best things that you can do is actually, like you mentioned, is not eating at night, is closing your eating window early in the day because a lot of that signaling with leptin actually happens around midnight. So, if you've just eaten a big meal before you go to bed, then you also may be interfering with the leptin docking. So, it's definitely one of the big sorts of strategies. I would also recommend, like getting your circadian rhythm synced up well, getting morning light can really help with the cascade of hormones that's triggered from melanopsin and the eye detecting morning light.

That specific light wavelengths that you get in the morning, they trigger a lot of hormonal cascades so it could really help support that. And you mentioned that you prioritize protein and you crowd out the more processed foods as much as possible. And I think that's a really great strategy. As far as fasting, like sort of doing extended fasting, 24 hour-plus fast, that definitely is something that will lower both insulin resistance and leptin resistance. So, that's one of the things that is attributed to keto is that it lowers leptin.

So, it definitely could be something, especially because there is this interrelationship between insulin and leptin as well. If you lower blood glucose, you lower insulin, you're going to also be able to lower leptin levels. I haven't looked at specific research on leptin and doing extended fast. I don't know if you have Melanie and maybe you have anything to add on this question.

Melanie Avalon: I have not looked at it in extended fasting, actually I do have a question for you because you're talking about testing leptin levels. When do you test that? And what's the timeline of leptin in the system? And does leptin in the bloodstream reflect? What does it actually tell you?

Vanessa Spina: It's actually a question we should have Dr. Rick on for when we have him on.

Melanie Avalon: When we have him on, we should yeah, I'll make a note. So, he knows a lot about this?

Vanessa Spina: He does. And he tests for leptin with his patients and he knows a lot about it. I mean, he wrote a lot about it in his book, but he knows what that sort of optimal amount of leptin, like what healthy leptin looks like so that you are at getting the proper signaling. And when leptin is really elevated, it means that it's not docking because it's leftover circulating in the blood. But I don't know what the ideal time is for it. I don't know if there is an ideal time. Like, I don't know if you would get different measurements at different times of day because it is secreted after you eat from your fat cells. So, it's a great question and a great question for Rick.

Melanie Avalon: So, I'm going to make a note now because we are bringing him on. That's going to be so fun. Vanessa and I are Rick Johnson fan girls. I showed Vanessa this. I got so happy the other day. He wanted to know how I enjoyed the Taylor Swift concert and said I looked like Taylor Swift at the concert. And my day, I like a life was made. He's a nicest, precious man.

Vanessa Spina: Precious gem of a man.

Melanie Avalon: And he loves musicals. His daughter is very musically talented and his son. It's so cool that I love when there are families like that are, like, sciency and creative.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that was a fantastic answer. I knew Vanessa would be able to do that much more justice than I can because I haven't done a lot of research into leptin, and I really probably should. The only thing I will add on is two things. So, this, well, three things. One Vanessa, do you have thoughts on "Is it Jack Kruse, the Leptin Reset diet?"

Vanessa Spina: Yes, he has a great Leptin Reset protocol.

Melanie Avalon: So, that might be something to check out. I have not done it, but I just know-- especially when I was really steeped more in the low-carb world and gallivanting about the forms and such, I would see people talking about his work a lot. That might be something to check out. I'll put a link to that in the show notes and then two other things. I completely hear you and understand. And first of all, congratulations with no longer struggling with the binging or no longer binging, I don't know if you're struggling with it emotionally. I am happy for you that you are finding what works for you.

So, I'm wondering two things. One, you're crowding out the processed foods as much as possible. I wonder if you're still maybe like I was talking about earlier with how I react to the muffin, for example. I wonder if you're still eating something that is creating a blood sugar drop and a response like if you're eating something that is not serving you. And if that's the case, of course, we don't want you to fall into a restrictive pattern or binge eating or anything like that,

I just wonder if that is the case, if instead it's possible to have a sort of paradigm shift where it's not about restricting, but maybe focusing on what you can eat. So, maybe you could try and experiment for just a day. I don't know if this is happening every night for her. Always feel hungry right before bed. So, what if you tried one day where you only ate whole foods, like nourishing whole foods to abundance, so no restriction, and just see how that affects your hunger before bed? Oh, also this would be a great time to try a CGM like we talked about earlier. You could see when you're hungry at night if it is from a blood sugar drop. Actually, you might want to start there or do that as one of the first things, because then you'll know in that hungry moment, are you having a blood sugar drop or not. And that will be so telling. So again, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast, coupon code IFPODCAST for $30 off.

And then my last recommendation would be I know you are eating nourishing food, but really focusing on high nutrient-rich food. It could be like a micronutrient deficiency of some sort. So, I don't know what you're eating, but seafood and meat and fish and things really, really high in nutrients, maybe egg yolks, if that's something that works for you. I just find that when people focus on nutrition that that can really move the needle for some people.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's a great tip. And I'm a huge fan of making liver pate and having it once or twice a month just for that nutrient density. But I love that you brought up the Leptin Reset protocol by Dr. Jack Kruse. And I know that his recommendation is to have like, 50? I think it's around 50 g of protein when you wake up, right? Yeah. Within half an hour to an hour of waking.

There's also a book, a really interesting book by an author, he wrote a book on leptin going through all the research and science on it. And he says, make sure you get that protein. But also, no snacking between meals is a really important thing for lowering leptin. Yeah, I think that's the last thing that I wanted to add, but, yeah, there's definitely a lot of things you can do to reset it. Yeah, let us know how it goes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, please keep us updated. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for this episode, which will have links to everything that we talked about, which is a lot of things, as well as a full transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode322. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl right. Yes, I think that is all of the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: No, I really enjoyed all the questions and I can't wait to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. All right, well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: All right, talk to you soon.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jun 11

Episode 321: Vegetarianism, Red Meat Consumption, Cucumbers, Probiotics, Fecal Transplants, Coffee Recommendations, Powdered MCT Oil, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate
Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

ATHLETIC GREENS: 75 High-Quality Vitamins, Minerals, Whole-Food Sourced Ingredients, Probiotics, And Adaptogens In One Delicious Scoop! Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At Athleticgreens.Com/Ifpodcast

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

Listener Q&A: Alissa - Probiotics and Supplements

Effect of Lactobacillus rhamnosus HN001 and Bifidobacterium longum BB536 on the healthy gut microbiota composition at phyla and species level: A preliminary study

The International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics consensus statement on the scope and appropriate use of the term probiotic

The impact of meals on a probiotic during transit through a model of the human upper gastrointestinal tract

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, some of which are clean fast friendly for free. Yes, for free, plus I have a very exciting announcement. An incredibly popular LMNT flavor is back. The more I research and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency.

Athletes, for example, can lose up to 7 g of sodium per day and if that sodium is not replaced, it is very common to experience muscle cramps and fatigue. But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone, whether it's after a few glasses of wine, oh hey, keeping an active lifestyle, or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key. That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing, so many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that and it contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium.

Also, super exciting announcement, friends. One of LMNTs most popular flavors is back. Starting May 25th, you can get LMNT’s grapefruit salt. It is the perfect way to balance the summer heat. Consider it your ultimate summer salt companion. You can mix it up in tasty summer recipes, energize your adventures, and most importantly, enjoy your health. Friends, this flavor is popular. It goes fast, so make sure to grab it once it's available, which is starting May 25th.

And of course, we have an incredible offer to go with that. Members of our community will get a free LMNT sample pack with eight flavors with any order when they order at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, that's drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. So, grab your LMNT order, grab that grapefruit flavor, and get your free sample pack. Now is the time. And of course, you can try this completely risk-free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and LMNT will give you your money back, no questions asked, you have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast for your free gift and grab that grapefruit salt flavor now. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Hi, friends. Are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina, and new customers can use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off sitewide. That's CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off sitewide. Definitely get on our Clean Beauty email list for all the latest special sales and updates. And I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. Mine is at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty and Vanessa's is ketogenicgirl.com/cleanbeauty. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, just go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off sitewide for new customers. beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 321 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hi everyone. I'm so excited for today's episode.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing amazing. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I'm excited. I started reading your book, which I am embarrassed to say I hadn't actually read yet and I am loving it.

Vanessa Spina: I'm reading yours for your interview on my podcast next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm reading yours for your interview on my podcast in a few weeks. We match. That's so exciting. So, you were a vegetarian for a long time?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, when I was 16, it was more toward 17, I just suddenly decided to become a vegetarian. And it wasn't until I started keto, which was like in my early 30s, I was like, I guess I'm going to go back to eating animal products but fully because a few years before then, my naturopath in Vancouver, I had been going to see him for a while because I had such low energy levels. I didn't feel good in my body at all. I realized later my body composition was getting really poor and he was a full vegan. There're a lot of vegetarian people. It's a huge community in Vancouver.

He looked at me straight in the eyes. He's like, "I think you should start eating animals again." [laughs] And I was like, "Whoa," this is my vegetarian or vegan doctor telling me. And he's like, "Just start eating some fish, chicken, and turkey, just do like poultry." And I immediately started feeling better. And that's like when I started getting into intermittent fasting and keto and everything. I felt the more iron-rich food, the more nutrient-dense food I was eating, the better I felt, my energy levels started coming back. Then most of my adult life I was vegetarian. So, it was a huge, huge change.

Melanie Avalon: Because you thought it was healthy or was it an ethical choice or what was the reasoning?

Vanessa Spina: For first becoming vegetarian?

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: It was partly because I loved animals so much and partly because I thought it would be a good way to lose weight. I think a lot of people go vegetarian or plan -based because they're drawn to that aspect of it. I thought it would be an easy way to maintain weight as well. So, it seemed like the perfect combination. There's also this virtue that you feel when you're vegetarian. It's almost like a religious feeling; you feel so virtuous that you're doing such good things for the planet. And it wasn't until many years later that I realized that there's no diet that's completely death free as virtuous as being vegetarian or vegan made me feel at the time.

I had a lot of bad facts and misinformation about it. I applaud anyone who chooses to make that decision for themselves. But my opinion on it now is that it's a privilege to be able to do a vegan diet, especially, which I did for a long time, and a vegetarian diet in a proper way with enough nutritional supplementation. And it really disadvantages people who are below the poverty level or who live in countries where it's almost impossible to get the kinds of supplements that you need when you're a vegan or vegetarian. To deny those things, I think, to people who are struggling because of some moral or ethical principle. I have a lot of problems with it. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I feel really similar.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. What's your background?

Melanie Avalon: I think, I may be tried vegetarian for like a week. [laughs] I was like, this is not for me.

Vanessa Spina: That's was like, my husband, he tried it for, like, an afternoon. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I eat a very, very high animal protein diet, and I have for years and years, and years. First of all, I really do support people finding the diet that works for them like you do you. I just get so over the dietary wars and-

Vanessa Spina: Ah, so over it.

Melanie Avalon: -the virtue signaling that goes with it, especially because I think there's like you said, there's a lot of misunderstanding, but with a lot of aspects of it. The privilege, I do think is a big piece. And also, there's just a lot of debate about especially like the environmental concerns. There's a lot of nuance and complexity there that it's confusing because you can read either side and walk away very convinced. So, it's hard to know what's actually happening. I do really love Robb Wolf's book Sacred Cow. Have you read that book?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I interviewed him about it a couple of years ago.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I love. We should have him on the show.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that would be awesome.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to email him about something random anyways, so I think I'll invite him back on. Would you be down?

Vanessa Spina: Of course. I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: I love that man. I've been following him for so long-- for listeners, literally, we were talking about origin stories last episode. Robb Wolf is the reason I started doing the paleo diet. He's had a huge effect on my life. But yeah, so, yeah, long story short, I think it's very complicated and nuanced and I do think it can be really hard for people to get enough protein and nutrition, especially on like, a vegan diet. But I also respect and I also respect people for their decisions and choices.

Vanessa Spina: Can I mention there's a really interesting paper that just came out. These researchers in Animal Frontiers, they said that what's really interesting is that the link between red meat and disease is almost eradicated when you combine it with a healthy diet. And it's really actually they're suggesting that it's really the rest of the diet that is the cause behind the health issues. Like, often the red meat is blamed. And it's a really interesting article. They're saying 1000 academic scientists are saying that meat and animal protein is crucial for human health and they're calling for an end to the zealotry pushing vegetarian and vegan diets. Speaking of Sacred Cow there's, almost 1000 academics from leading universities around the world signed an initiative that argues that livestock farming is too important to become the victim of zealotry. And they published in the Academic Journal Animal Frontiers as a part of a collaboration with professional animal science societies and dozens of experts.

And they looked at these claims saying that eating red meat causes diseases as well as being harmful for the planet. The people that they're really the most concerned with is the people who, like I was saying earlier, are below the poverty line. Or people who live in poor communities that have a low meat intake, they can't afford to have meat, or they're discouraged from eating meat. Like, a lot of schools are instituting, like, meatless days in the schools.

Melanie Avalon: Meatless Mondays.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and it's like that may be the only time that people from those communities actually get animal protein. These communities often suffer from a lot of nutrient deficiencies and diseases related to that, like stunted growth, wasting, and anemia. And this was reported in the Telegraph. Animal protein is responsible for providing B12 vitamins, omega-3 fatty acids, minerals, iron, and zinc in addition to organ meats, which we don't even talk about in here.

But I think that they were saying that if you remove fresh meat and dairy from diets, it would lead to more human harm. Women, children, elderly, and people who live on low income would be particularly negatively impacted. And foods that are derived from livestock, they provide a variety of essential nutrients and other health-promoting compounds which are lacking in diets, even among the populations with higher income.

So, well-resourced people, they might be able to achieve adequate nutrition while heavily restricting meat, dairy, and eggs in a vegan scenario. But this approach is not something that should be recommended for everyone. I think they're trying to fight back or push back a little bit on some of the zealotry. I'm not saying that every vegetarian or vegan is a zealot. Like, I was a vegetarian myself for most of my adult life and I don't think I was as zealot about it. Now that I've learned so much more about the bioavailability and nutrient density in animal protein and how animal proteins have amino acids that are made for us and plants have amino acids that are made for plants. Although if you can afford to, you can supplement and you can do a vegan or vegetarian diet well. But if you are below the poverty line, it's going to be near impossible and your health is probably more likely to suffer.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. Yeah, the concept of the healthy user bias, I think, is so important and it's not exactly the same thing, but it's what you were talking about with the diet that maybe it's not the red meat that's the problem, it's the other things with it. And so that's the idea. And I think there's been quite a few studies on this with the healthy user bias. I remember there was one study where they looked at-- they basically, I would have to find it. The way they did it was they looked at people who shopped at Whole Foods or certain grocery stores versus not and their red meat consumption and how it affected outcomes. And all of the health issues with red meat just are gone when you take into account the whole context of the person. And then on the environmental side, Robb Wolf makes a really good case in Sacred Cow that a completely plant-based system would just wreck the planet. I mean, he makes a very compelling case for that. It's not the natural ecosystem of the world. And yeah, just read the book.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so happy that he's out there with I think his co-author was Diana Rodgers. I'm so happy that she's out there, that Robb is out there speaking about this, and he's doing such a good job with it, just to understand the power of regenerative agriculture. And I don't know why farming has been-- it seems like farming has been under attack in the last year or two. And it's really sad to see because we need agriculture. We need regenerative agriculture so much and livestock and it's just all a part of this greater good for the planet like you were saying.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think we're so disconnected from our food, and I say this as a disconnected person. I haven't even gone hunting, so I don't have that experience of what goes into that system and ultimately manifests as food on my plate. I think we're just so disconnected. And I don't know, we don't really-- and I'm tiptoeing a little bit, but I feel like we often think of, especially in the US, like the Native American culture, as being something that was really in tune with the land and really connected and we idealized that. They were definitely not plant based. They had, like, a connection with the land and the animals and understood that it was like a circle of life type thing. I feel like I'm being esoteric right now, but I do think that we just waltz around in this land of ideals without understanding the practical implications of things and unintended consequences.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I think human suffering is also an important factor. And I know for myself, I was suffering a lot when I was denying myself animal protein, especially with my health and my body composition. And even though I had resources to supplement. Since making the change and going back to including animal protein in my diet, I'm not suffering on that same level anymore. My body composition is great and I feel like I'm effortlessly lean now from incorporating an optimal amount of protein and really nutrient-dense food. And I really think beef is a superfood. Salmon is a superfood. Why are we always talking about blueberries and kale and spinach? The real superfoods are animal proteins. And I agree we're very disconnected, but I think that it's really important to make sure to include foods that have a lot of high biological value of protein and bioavailability and absorption. It's going to reduce human suffering, which I think is an important factor as well.

Melanie Avalon: I agree so much. Also, this might seem a little like woo woo, but ever since I started growing my own cucumbers in my apartment, which I am looking at right now. Which I love.

Vanessa Spina: That is the cutest thing ever.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know about my cucumbers in my apartment?

Vanessa Spina: I did not know that you were growing them. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, Vanessa, it's a thing.

Vanessa Spina: I think, I need to start too, because cucumbers are my number one plant food.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Okay, wait. Okay. So. Have you heard of AeroGarden?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've seen it with tomatoes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I am obsessed. I have five units. They come in all different sizes, but the two really big ones that I have, I think it's called, like, the Farm XL. That's the one. It's about, I'm so bad at gauging height. It's probably 4ft high. You can grow tomatoes, cucumbers. So, I grow cucumbers and it's right by the window and they grow up my window panes. So, they grow, like, all the way up. I mean they grow high. And it's funny when I first started doing it, it's so crazy. "Okay, Vanessa, you have to grow cucumbers." Because they're so cute. They have these little tendrils to grab onto things. So, they go and they grab onto the windows and they wave their way up things. When it first started, the cucumbers started trying to grow onto the windows, and I was like, "Stop." And I would, like, pull them away and try to make them stay in their little farm, and I just let them do their thing. So, they go up, like, 10ft. The point is you would love it so much.

Vanessa Spina: I need to do it because I'm obsessed with cucumbers. Like, large, normal-sized cucumbers and small cucumbers or pickles. Like, when I discovered that pickles were small cucumbers, I was like, "Oh, my God, this makes so much sense." They're like my two favorite plant foods. One is just a smaller version. So, I would love to actually do that. Pete's been wanting to do plant boxes in our garden.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, outside?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, like, you set up a box and you fill it with soil. So, I think maybe we should do it this summer--cucumbers. I just always thought, how could I keep up with my demand for cucumbers? Because also, Luca loves them too. So, yeah, we go through a lot of them. Like, I'm constantly peeling cucumbers.

Melanie Avalon: I mean, I buy, like, pounds and pounds of cucumbers. And I get asked so often, people on Instagram will DM me all the time. They're like, what do you do with those cucumbers? I just eat them because I go to Costco and I buy, like a lot. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked, how do you eat them and how long does it take you to eat those? Because I'll buy probably like let's see. I'll buy like 50 at a time, the really big ones, and I eat them pretty fast.

Vanessa Spina: I love that. I use them for everything. Like, when people-- when I was like, I used to make my turkey or chicken liver pâté all the time on my Instagram stories, and the number one question I would get is, "What do you eat this with?" And I'm like, "Well, you can do pork rinds or cucumbers and make amazing crackers. Whenever we have people over, dehydrate them, we have people over. Just fresh cucumber slices make an amazing cracker because it balances out, I guess, the texture of the pâté. But you can also use them for other things, like a salmon dip or like if you make any kinds of dips or things. It's actually quite nice to have a cracker that's not super dry, but it works so well just for a delivery device for pate or dips or things. Cucumbers are amazing. They're so refreshing. They're so packed with water and yeah, I'm a huge fan. I'm going to start growing them to you.

Melanie Avalon: Well, just really quick to that point. The reason I started eating them. So, I love drinking wine, obviously, and so I wanted to find something to munch on while drinking wine, like before my actual meal. And so, I started with lettuce. I would like, just eat lettuce plain. I was like, lettuce pairs so well with wine because it's hydrating. I can munch on something. It's like a nice little snack. I know that sounds crazy and I sound like a rabbit. It was fun. But in any case, I realized I was like, allergic. I don't know if I was allergic to the lettuce or like, maybe some of the I don't know, whatever they spray on it. I started getting psoriasis on my hands. I realized it was probably contact dermatitis from the lettuce, like, mind blown. So, I stopped. I was like I got to find something else. And so, that's when I found cucumbers and I never looked back.

Vanessa Spina: What was your favorite lettuce? Mine is iceberg. And I love, I could just have like-- I'll do like, salmon sashimi and I make the Japanese like ginger dressing and cucumbers and iceberg lettuce. It's so good. But sometimes I find that I don't handle the lettuce as well. And there's been a lot of, like, negative press in the last few years about lettuce as well. People always think that you get bacterial infections and things from eating meat, but a lot of times it's actually lettuce. I think it was a year before last, there were three deaths from E. coli and lettuce and stuff. So, I don't know what's going on with it, but I definitely haven't been having it as much as I used to.

Melanie Avalon: If you want to talk about controversy and I won't tell the whole story because it's a tangent, I would just say listeners, look up the history of why. Look up the history of milk production and raw milk and pasteurization.

Vanessa Spina: Bill Schindler?

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. Mind Blown. We both interviewed him.

Vanessa Spina: I think we must have both interviewed him. I remember listening to the interview you did with him. It was really, really good. And I loved having him on the podcast. I loved his book. He's one of my top 10 favorite guests. And just in terms of class and humility and kindness, he's just brilliant and so, so down to earth and nice. And I learned so much from him.

Melanie Avalon: Same. He's amazing. One of my favorite episodes. There's just so much shocking stuff there's A-- [crosstalk]

Vanessa Spina: Really disturbing.

Melanie Avalon: It's like, really, really disturbing stuff in the milk industry that was happening, and then I mean, disgusting stuff. And then on the flipside, the demonization of raw milk, he puts the stats of how many illnesses there's been contributed or deaths to raw milk compared to-- I mean, it's just shocking. It's almost nonexistent. And one of the top causes of death now is over-the-counter medication and stuff or yeah, but it's just crazy.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Accidental deaths. I think it's like number three or number four is like accidental deaths from healthcare.

Melanie Avalon: I could be wrong. I thought complications in hospitals was number one. I don't know if it's number one or number two. It's up there. It's really high. I'm going to bring this party home. The reason I brought up the cucumbers because I got to come full circle, is because when I started growing cucumbers the first time, well, A, I was like these things are alive. Like, these things are alive. Like, they've got, like, not thoughts, but they're like [laughs] alive. Like, they're like they have personality. And the first time I picked my own cucumbers, I was like, I feel like I'm eating something, like, not conscious, but it was an experience of, how do I wrap this up? I think plants are very much alive as well as our animals. And so, I find it really interesting and this would be a whole other conversation for another day, but it's like, again, going back to the circle of life, like, the plants die as well when we eat them. I'm just putting that out there. And they were alive.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: And when you eat them, they're alive. I feel like they're still alive when you're eating them. Okay, now I'm done.

Vanessa Spina: It's really interesting you said that. And I don't know if you've ever interviewed Dr. Gerald Pollack. I think he's one of the most brilliant yeah, he's absolutely brilliant paradigm-shifting scientist. But he discovered exclusion zone water and he believes that one of the best things we can do for our health is to eat foods that have a lot of water in them because plant foods that have a lot of water. He says that some of it is exclusion zone water that's made in the plant. So, I think there's, like, a vitality or something. I get what you're saying about eating, like, a fresh cucumber, but I think it's hilarious that we both love them so much.

Melanie Avalon: I just feel like not that plants are sentient, but if you think about-- I mean, they signal to each other things. I don't know. You can go down rabbit holes.

Vanessa Spina: I'm just picturing you, like, petting the cucumbers and like telling them compliments and like "Your tendrils are looking so beautiful today."

Melanie Avalon: No, I talk to them. I, like, play music for them. They like Lana Del Rey. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Okay. My goal is to grow at least one cucumber by the end of the summer.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, get an AeroGarden. We'll do it outside for sure. But if you get an AeroGarden, you can do it indoors, and it takes care of itself. And Luca can, like, play with them.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that'd be a fun educational project for him actually.

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So, on that note. [laughs] Shall we get into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. We have our first question from Alyssa, and the subject is probiotics and supplements. I know there are a lot of benefits to a probiotic supplement. When do you all recommend taking a probiotic or any other supplement?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I totally missed that she also had any other supplement. That's a big question. I did research for just for probiotics. This is really interesting because I thought that there would have been like, when I sat down to research this. And I had researched it historically, I thought there would be a ton of studies. I was like, "Oh, this will be easy." I couldn't find that many. There are not many studies looking at the timing of probiotics, which is very interesting. I did find a really good one. This was published in-- it was a while ago, though. It was 2011. And what's interesting, though, is I did find another article or journal or something talking about probiotics. And I was like, "Oh, another source." But then it was just referencing this one. I hate it when that happens. Like, I think I found something new. But then it's all just going back to this one thing.

This study was called "The impact of meals on a probiotic during transit through a model of the human upper gastrointestinal tract." It was published in Beneficial Microbes. And what they did was they looked at a probiotic that contained four different strains of probiotics. And I wonder if I should define probiotics. I'm sure most people are familiar with what probiotics are. Basically, they are bacteria, microorganisms that can beneficially modulate our own GI system. And some of them are natural to humans. So, some of them are like naturally in our system. Some are actually not natural, but still natural. And what I mean by that is like the lactobacilli strain, for example, that's often found in dairy products. It's normally a member of the human GI tract, but it's not actually from us, like we have to get it from food compared to the Bifidobacteria most people tend to have that if that makes sense. It's a really subtle nuance, but there is a slight difference there.

Then, of course, there's the whole strain of gut microbiome bacteria that we have that we can't get from probiotics. Also, and I'll circle back to this, probiotics, there's a thesis surrounding dead versus living probiotics because studies have actually found that dead probiotics can still have a beneficial effect on our health, which is really, really interesting. I've been fascinated by that. But what's really interesting about that is so I actually found a study by Professor Colin Hill and he has a paper talking about the definition of probiotics. That study is called The International Scientific Association for Probiotics and Prebiotics Consensus Statement on the Scope and Appropriate Use of the Term Probiotic, that's a really funny title, that was last updated in May 2023. But he actually makes the case that a probiotic must be alive when administered, otherwise, it doesn't count as a probiotic.

And I think that's really important to keep in mind because if we do see that dead probiotics are having a beneficial effect, we might think, "Oh, it doesn't really matter if they're alive or not because they can be dead and we'll still see a beneficial effect." It's probably different not different mechanisms of action. But if it's a dead probiotic, basically you're still having an immune response to it. And so that might be a reason that there's a beneficial effect. But we're probably getting benefits from alive probiotics in and of themselves, so there's probably something to that.

So, coming back to the study, they looked at two different types of lactobacilli as well as a type of Bifidobacterium that I just mentioned, and then also Saccharomyces boulardii. And they put the probiotics they gave them to the participants at different times either before or after a meal. They also gave it with different things. So, like milk versus milk with oatmeal versus apple juice or water. Some of the takeaways they found was that they found that probiotics given after the meal did not survive as well as probiotics given before the meal. An exception was Saccharomyces boulardii was not affected by the meal timing or what you had it with. And Saccharomyces boulardii is actually a yeast, it's not a bacteria. And interestingly, in interviewing Izabella Wentz for her new book on Adrenal Fatigue, she talks a lot about the benefits of Saccharomyces boulardii. But then they also found that probably better to take it before and then as far as what to have it with. Lactobacillus strains seemed to do better when they were in the presence of glucose. And they think that might be because they actually use glucose as a source of fuel.

So, that's why it probably did better when they were with the milk and the milk and oats, oh wait. They also found that protein content of the meal in particular didn't really seem to affect anything, didn't really seem to affect survival rate, and that fat did seem to have a beneficial effect. So, their conclusion was for non-enteric-coated bacteria probiotics. And so, to clarify, some probiotics come in enteric coatings and those actually help the probiotics survive the harsh conditions of the GI tract.

So, for ones not in enteric coatings, it's probably best to take them just prior to a meal or with a meal containing some fats. And my thoughts on all of this is that-- I like to think about it from sort of like an evolutionary perspective. So, how were we getting these beneficial microbes in the natural world? So, lactobacillus and such we would get from obviously milk and dairy products. That like is the food, it's with the food and then the Bifidobacterium and stuff. Also, I feel like it would be when we're eating. To me, it makes sense that it would be like right before a meal with a meal compared to afterwards.

The long story short, I personally when I take probiotics and throughout my life, I've taken a lot of different ones and I usually take them right at the start of the meal. And then I did find one other study. It was called effect of Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Bifidobacterium longum on the healthy gut microbiota composition at phyla and species level. This is a 2017 study. They did one month of administration of both of those bacteria, the Bifidobacterium longum and the Lactobacillus rhamnosus. And they found that in both the preprandial and the postprandial groups. So, they were comparing before and after that both of them led to a significant increase within the study participants of their gut bacteria. So, they basically found that both strains were able to colonize the gut taken before or after a meal. All of that to say, I would take it with meals err on the side of earlier. Just know that there's not a ton of data out there. I thought there would be more. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I think you covered the question so well. I love the recommendation of taking it with meals. I'm a little bit skeptical about probiotic supplements because of our stomach acid kills off so much of it, as you mentioned. And if you are taking a probiotic, please make sure that it has enteric coating because if it just has a vegetable capsule, it will just dissolve in your stomach acid. Our stomach acid is like 1.2 to 2 pH. It could dissolve almost anything. So, I also know that, although I'm more so a fan of getting probiotics from whole foods like yogurt, fermented foods, I think especially fermented foods, some of that can also be killed off by stomach acid. So, it might be beneficial to supplement actually in that case with a probiotic that has an enteric coating.

I'm also a little bit skeptical because I've heard from different experts that people have been taking so many probiotics now that it's actually causing more so the opposite problem of bacterial overgrowth in the intestines, like things like SIBO issues like that. But I'm definitely not an unexpert in probiotics and gut bacteria. I think there's so much that we don't know and that we're still learning about. So, it'll probably be more beneficial to supplement with some kind of probiotic if that's something that you want to do. I personally am not supplementing with one right now.

I get probiotics through fermented foods and through yogurt, which is also a fermented food and that seems to be working for me right now. I also believe that your gut microbiome naturally shifts and adapts to your diet, which is really fascinating. Like they've done research where people who are eating carnivore diets, they have a completely different microbiome that's shifted to just helping you process just animal protein. It's so fascinating, endlessly fascinating. But I think that the research that you looked at, on the timing of it just answered the question perfectly. So, those are just some of my opinions.

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you brought that up about the stomach acid and interestingly. So, in one of those studies that I was talking about, they talked about that specifically and it's the lactobacillus strain, which is one that people often have fermented dairy for. They're actually intrinsically resistant to acid, particularly in the presence of glucose. I think a takeaway for that is, if you're having a fermented dairy product which would have a little bit of glucose from the carbs, it's possible that that is surviving. So, I think if people are having fermented dairy that maybe that condition sets it up to survive the journey naturally, like the natural probiotic. I agree. I just think it's just a huge ocean. We just don't even know what all is happening and I think a lot of people do. I mean, I personally had small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which is like the bane of my existence. It's all confusing. And I definitely think I'm so glad you emphasized the role of real foods because I think a lot of people turn to pills as like a fix all and I think starting with diet is key.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and there's something to be said about I'm a big fan of intuitive eating, not in the sense of how it's typically used, but in the sense of connecting to your body and listening and paying attention to your cravings and what you are particularly inclined to eat. And I'm a huge fan of yogurt and dairy in general for improving body composition. It's an excellent source of protein, it's an excellent source of calcium, and it's also got probiotics in it. So, I'm a huge, huge fan of fermented dairy and it's so great to learn that it's particularly resistant to stomach acid.

Melanie Avalon: Have you taken soil-based probiotics before?

Vanessa Spina: I haven’t. I know there's a lot of buzz about them, but I haven't tried that yet.

Melanie Avalon: I have in the past. I've tried all different things in the past. Something else to consider too is some probiotic strains are more histamine-producing than others. People who have histamine overload issues might benefit from low histamine strains. So, lactobacillus is known to be higher in histamine.

Vanessa Spina: I think it would be super beneficial and I know that you and I think Gin have talked in the past about this maybe, really beneficial to get an assessment of what's going on in your gut and see what experts think of the strains that you have. Some of the most fascinating research that studies the actual types of gut microbiota have found that humans and animals that have a higher amount of Firmicutes bacteria tend to be more obese and those who have a higher amount of Bacteroides are just naturally more lean.

And I think there've been studies done with fecal transplants and that kind bypasses the whole stomach acid issue as well. But I think that there's a lot that we could potentially learn from that because I think there's actually studies where they did transplant the bacteria and the obese mice became lean when they had more Bacteroidetes. I mean, imagine if it was that simple that it was just like, "Oh, you've got the wrong gut microbiome ratio Firmicutes to Bacteroides. So, I think it's a really promising area of research.

Melanie Avalon: I think this is huge, especially people debate, like, calories in versus calories out. A different person with a different gut microbiome, they could eat a certain food and because of their gut microbiome, the gut microbiome could determine how many calories they extract from that food and ultimately store. It's sort of like there's some indigenous tribe where they ate, like, a really high bulk plant diet. Their gut microbiome specifically can pull more calories from that in a way. There's just so many factors involved with weight loss and weight gain, and I think the microbiome is a huge part of that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm exciting to see what the research discovers in the next decades.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I feel like we probably shouldn't answer because you also want to know supplements in general, but that's just, yeah, there're a lot of supplements. So, if you would like to know about a specific supplement, Alyssa, definitely write us back and we'll address it.

Vanessa Spina: Hi, friends.  This episode is brought to you in part by AG1. Some of our listeners have really had wonderful experiences with AG1 and we wanted to highlight some of them on the show. Laurie says I like them. "My husband also takes it and for someone who doesn't like to take a pill-formed supplement, it is perfect for him. I like all the vitamins, pro and prebiotics, adaptogens, and much more than what AG1 offers. And the taste is pretty good. I can take it alone or with water or I'll even put it in my vanilla protein shake. Yes, it is pricey, but it's worth it for me." I love getting to highlight some of our listeners own experiences using Athletic Greens. If you would like to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. All right, now back to our show.

Our next question is from Grace and it comes to us from Facebook and she asks, "What's your favorite black coffee brand? I'm ready to try some other things besides Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, Folgers, and Maxwell. I would love your personal recs." Kindly, Grace.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, coffee. I'm excited to talk about this. I know we talked about this a little bit before. Do you drink coffee in the mornings?

Vanessa Spina: I usually do. The last month and a half, I have gone off coffee and I'm just doing ginger tea, but I am a huge coffee fan.

Melanie Avalon: How historically, did you ever, like, what was the most coffee you were drinking? Did you go through really intense coffee times in your life?

Vanessa Spina: I only ever did, I never drank coffee except for when I was in university because I had to stay up all night sometimes to study. And then I never drank it. And then when we moved to Prague, it was the hottest summer on record and we had this like 40 Celsius day. I'm sorry, I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but it's like, can't think hot. And we had some friends visiting and went to this cafe and I was like just bring me anything with ice in it. And they brought me an iced coffee. And it was the most delicious thing that I had ever had. So, I've been learning about coffee since then. So, I definitely want to chime in on this after you answer because I have a bit of a different take, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it. Okay. The times I was drinking the most coffee was definitely in college. And I shudder thinking about how much-- like how was I sur-- how did I not just kill me? [laughs] So, I drank a ton in college. And then after graduating, I did the Bulletproof coffee for a little bit. Did you go-- oh, no, you did, because you talked about it in your book.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it was a part of the keto craze.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Did you do like butter or MCT oil? What would you do?

Vanessa Spina: I was more the MCT oil or the powdered MCT. And I really like that combination. I still do it sometimes, actually. I have powdered MCT that I still put in my coffee sometimes.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, when I do that, it makes me really hungry. Interestingly.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I haven't noticed that. I usually find that it has a warming effect and interestingly, especially in the abdomen, because I think it has a thermic effect and it's signaling the mitochondria. So, I've been experimenting with it off and on in the last couple of years to see what happens. But yeah, MCT has really interesting reactions in people.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, it definitely does.

Vanessa Spina: Do you do the butter?

Melanie Avalon: When I first did it, I read going back to origin stories, I'm trying to remember if I read Dave Asprey's The Bulletproof Diet book first or if I was listening to his podcast. I just remember in 2012 when I first discovered paleo with Robb Wolf. Also, around that time, I was finding Dave Asprey's stuff and I printed out his Bulletproof diet from his chart. Actually, I think it was like on his website. I printed it out and I made this thing on my refrigerator and I made it like Mulan themed because her transformation scene. So, I put all these Mulan stickers and I was like, "I'm going to do the Bulletproof diet." It was like a thing because you know the opening scene in Mulan where she like.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, [laughs] that's so cute, oh my God.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, good times. And so that's when I was experimenting with Bulletproof coffee. And I would put-- I would get the grass-fed, like, Kerrygold butter and do it. Yeah, it was fun. It was a fun time. That's when I started getting really cognizant of the role of clean coffee. Mostly because of how much Dave talked about it with like mold exposure. So, I started drinking Bulletproof Coffee, the brand, because he was just so intense about mycotoxins in coffee and his own mold exposure experience. And then the irony, the utter irony of all this is this is the time period that I was living in a mold-infested apartment and didn't realize it. And I really think that that did a huge number on my health. But in any case, so I've been drinking the Bulletproof brand since then, so over a decade because I trust him with it basically.

I have recently switched though because as of like a few weeks ago and I think I talked about this on a recent episode. I don't know if he sold the Bulletproof brand. I'm not sure what happened. Something happened. It's no longer his brand. So, he has a new coffee called Danger Coffee. And I just received it and it's a remineralized coffee, which is super cool because coffee can be-- like it can be demineralizing, I believe. And so, it has added minerals in it. I am loving it. And what's really interesting is I hadn't heard about it until I read his new book, Smarter Not Harder, and then interviewed him. I talked about in my Facebook group and I got a lot of comments from people who love it. And people were asking for coupon codes. So, that's my new coffee brand. You can actually get a discount if you go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON. I think it would actually make a really good present for people because it is a little bit on the pricier side. So, this would actually be a really good present for people. It's funny, one of my assistants randomly was emailing me. She was like if you ever need birthday gift suggestions, I would love some Danger Coffee. Okay, I got you covered.

All that to say last thing about the coffee and then I'm dying to hear your experience. I literally just have like a sip of coffee now every morning. I basically don't drink a lot. I cold brew it. I leave it in the fridge all week and then I just have a little bit in the morning. And then I also splash it on my face. Do you do that? I don't know why I asked it like you would like because I feel like nobody does this.

Vanessa Spina: This sounds like a Melanie thing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because there're all these skin products and they're like tightening. And I realized that caffeine is often a compound in them and/or there're all these like face products where it's like with coffee. And so, I had a moment one day, I was like, I'm just going to put coffee on my skin and it works so well. I wash my face and then I just splash it all over and I feel like I probably absorb some of the caffeine through the skin. I need to research that a little bit, but it's tightening. I feel like I get the antioxidants. I mean, I'm sure I get the antioxidants.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, some people do coffee enemas, like you're putting it on your face.

Melanie Avalon: I do those too.

Vanessa Spina: I figured.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: I've heard about them a lot, like in clinics and stuff. But I'm a huge fan of coffee because as a sport nutrition specialist and someone who studies biochemistry, it's one of the only scientifically validated supplements that is effective. And it's effective for a lot of things. It's an ergogenic performance aid, so it's wonderful for performance if you're an athlete. It's also wonderful for fat burning and lipolysis because caffeine stimulates adrenaline and noradrenaline or epinephrine and norepinephrine to be released into the bloodstream, which then can dock on the receptors on fat cells, the beta-adrenergic receptors on fat cells, which then releases fat into the bloodstream.

So, it's a fat burner and it's why all those fat burner pills and things, which I definitely discourage, but they always contain caffeine because it's scientifically backed ergogenic performance aid and also a fat burner. So, I love it for a lot of reasons. I really got into it, like I said when I had it in Europe, and I think it's because the coffee is better here. I don't know what it is, but I think my recommendation, and this is not going to be for everyone, but I started noticing that I enjoy the coffee when I'm in Europe. I don't enjoy it as much when we're in the US or Canada and I think it's the way that they process it here. So, they have really good machines. Several years ago, I invested in a home-like Barista coffeemaker and I have found that it doesn't really matter so much which coffee beans you're using, because if you look the ingredients on all the different brands, they're all using the same thing. It's like Arabica or what is it called? The actual coffee beans. It's all the same.

And Pete and I have gone to actual coffee farms in Tanzania and spice farms and it's just all the same beans going to different brands, factories with different packaging, right? But they all have the same beans. So, I think what it comes down to is how it's processed because I have a home office, I invested in this, and Pete and I use it every day. And it basically you put the coffee beans, like in the hopper in the top and then it grinds them. So, it's fresh every time you make a coffee. It grinds them, grinds the beans. The beans stay fresh because they're in an insulated chamber, so you're getting fresh coffee each time, freshly ground, which you could also just do at home with a coffee grinder. And then it's being put into the actual machinery which at high pressure extracts all the oils and things.

And I make a coffee with a couple of shots of espresso and then add hot water. And it's so good, it just hits in all the right ways and it's just like the right amount of bitterness, the right amount of oils everything. And it doesn't really matter the kind of beans that I put in there. I think it's more about the processing. So, that's just my opinion on it. If you're really big into coffee and you're wanting to try something else, maybe sometime in the future I would suggest looking into the way that you're processing it. Are you freshly grinding the beans before you make your own cup and then turning that into coffee?

You don't have to invest in a whole legit setup like, I did because I'm a little bit crazy about my coffee. But I also think coffee is great if you're a busy person because it can help in the morning to just get that BM out of the way and then you can go on with your day. And some people find that's not necessarily good to rely on caffeine for that. But if you're someone who is busy and you're going to be out and about and you want to actually have your bowel movement in your home, it can be really helpful for that as well because it expedites things. So, I like it for so many different reasons and I've been taking a little bit of a break and just noticing because I think it's good to switch things up from time to time and just see how you feel.

And I actually had coffee for the first time in about a month, Sunday and yesterday and it made me a little bit too anxious. So, I think I have to crank down my dose to maybe like one shot because after being off of it for a month, I think my receptors had downregulated a bit. So, it's also just interesting to notice because today I was like I think I just don't want to feel that way today. So, I'm going to just go back to my ginger tea which I've been doing for a month and a half. And I'll probably go back to the coffee but just doing a little bit less expresso shots in it. So, that's all my thoughts on coffee. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I'm glad you brought up. I as well always get the whole beans and grind them myself. I think it's better for freshness. Also going back to the mold and the issues with that, I think that's much less of an issue with the whole beans. And interesting about the anxious reaction. Well first of all, it's really nice when you are not on a high normal dose of caffeine or coffee because it's like a tool in your back pocket where if you have a day where you just have to like, for example, when I was getting my Taylor Swift tickets and I had to wake up at like 08:00 AM., which is not my time, and I was sleep deprived and I had two shows, I pulled out some coffee and it was like bam.

It's like, magical. So, it's nice to have it in your back pocket that way. I do wonder as well if sometimes people getting jittery or side effects from coffee if it is like, the mycotoxins or I mean, it probably is primarily the caffeine if they're not used to it. I get very concerned about nonorganic coffee and the compounds that might be in there. And like Danger Coffee, for example. It's not certified organic, but I trust Dave in producing it and he's really big on the testing. And they even say on the website that they go above and beyond the testing of normal testing standards.

And actually, I've learned a lot about that, creating supplements because we're working on our next one, which I don't know if I'm allowed to announce it yet by the time this comes out probably-- okay so we're working on a chlorella and a spirulina, and it's been really interesting. I'm so excited. We've been looking at different sources for it and some are certified organic and others aren't. But it's like stepping back from that. If we ourselves go and do all the testing on our own, in a way, I trust that more because we can go above and beyond just what the organic certification would assure. So, I love organic. I always err on the side of organic and I think if you really trust the producer, it's possible that there are nonorganic things that could be even better than "organic." So, that's a whole tangent. One last thing, though, to end on. Are you going to come to the Bulletproof Conference with me?

Vanessa Spina: It was so funny because I was talking to Dr. John Limansky today, and he's a really good friend. He's with Heads Up Health and he's known as a biohacking MD, and he's just an amazing person. And he's like, "You know we've been talking about trying to meet up for so long." And he's like, "I'm actually going to be at the biohacking conference." And I was like, "No way. Oh, my gosh." What are the dates again? I feel like at least if it's not this year, it has to be at least next summer. But what are the dates again?

Melanie Avalon: Yes and to answer your text in real life, I don't know him. Vanessa texted me asking me if I knew him. It's June 22nd through June 24th. So, when these airs? It's 10 days away.

Vanessa Spina: June 22nd to July 4th. Wow, that's long.

Melanie Avalon: June. So, June 22nd.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: I was like, "Whoa, this is like a month-long conference." [laughs] Oh, man.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I was like, Is this like a retreat?

Melanie Avalon: Can you imagine?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's a long time, two, three days max for me at an event like that because you just, like, are interacting with so many people.

Melanie Avalon:" Yes. June 22nd through June 24th. Listeners, please come. I am actually going. This is like mind blowing. This girl does not travel, so come see me if you're there. And I have discounts for people. So, it takes place in Orlando. June 22nd through June 24th. So many speakers, obviously. Dave Asprey, a lot of people I've had on my other show, like Dr. Mercola, Max Lugavere, the BiOptimizers guys, tons of people. Somebody I'm about to interview. I'm really excited about Molly Maloof.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, same.

Melanie Avalon: You're interviewing her, too?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It was supposed to be this month, but it was when we're traveling. So, I think it's going to be early next month, but I'm looking forward to chatting with her. So, that's great. She's going to be at the conference.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, she's one of the keynote speakers, so I'm really excited about that. I'm excited to finally just meet in real life all these people that I feel like I know it's going to be very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: Conferences are so fun.

Melanie Avalon: I haven't been to one of these, like, a health biohacking keto. I've never been to one.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you're going to love it. And you're going to have to pace yourself because so many people are going to come talk to you and want to get photos with you and everything, take breaks.

Melanie Avalon: I cannot go all day every day. I just can't in this conference situation. So, I'm going to be kind to myself and have boundaries and go to when I am most thriving, which is, like, not early morning. So, I will not be at the early morning speaker things, I'm sorry. But listeners, please come. You can actually get 40% off tickets, which is crazy. Just go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. Use the code M-A-4-0, MA40. And if you do come, Facebook me. Come to my Facebook group, IF Biohackers, or DM me on Instagram. I would love to meet people. It's going to be so fun. Vanessa, we have to manifest going to something at some point.

Vanessa Spina: I know we will. And I'm so excited for when that happens. It'll be so much fun. I know it'll get easier again in the future. Right now, with Luca being so young, I still breastfeed him. So, for me to be a part, it's like we're a unit right now. The three of us we are a unit. So, we either go everywhere together. There's a Biohacking Conference I was invited to in Europe in September, and it's like, either I go by myself and Pete and Luca are on their own or all three of us go together. Pete came with me before when I spoke at a different biohacking event in Finland but it's so different with a one-year-old. So, I know that this is like a season in my life. And I'm enjoying it so much. I never want it to end actually.

But it's not a season where I'm also prioritizing speaking, but I know that season will come around again. So, I am excited to be able to go to events again because they are truly so much fun, like the connections, getting to interact with people so much in real life, because so much of what you and I both do is online and it's also very much like a one-way medium. So, having Facebook groups is so helpful, but when you actually get to connect with everybody in person, it's just the best.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm so excited and I want you to know that I completely support you in the current season of your life. I really want you to come. And I also understand why it's probably not the time.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, thank you for understanding, but we'll see.

Melanie Avalon: Completely. I mean, look at me. Like me going, I'm probably just going to go to the evening stuff. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode321. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, so definitely check that out.

I think this will be the last time that I mention it. Last chance to enter to win over $500 worth of Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare from Beautycounter, which we love. You can check out the products online at our links, which is beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. But if you write a new Apple Podcast review or update your current Apple Podcast review and include what you're enjoying having Vanessa on the show and then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifppodcast.com, we will enter you to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products.

So, I'm going to make a note of when this airs so I can actually draw a winner shortly after this. Yeah, I think that is all the things. Oh, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. So, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: No. I enjoyed this episode so much. It flew by again in like two minutes and I can't wait for the next one already.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I feel the same way. I'm just having so much fun. So, I will look forward to next week and I will talk to you then.

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you then.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Jun 04

Episode 320: Fasting & Hormones, 2022 Fasting Review, Menopausal Women, Androgen Markers, Rodent Studies, Hyperandrogenism, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get free ground beef for a year plus $20 off your first box!!

 JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For A Year Plus $20 Off Your First Box!!

JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

Listener Q&A: Nicole - is fasting good for your hormones. I am hearing that is extremely beneficial for woman nearing and in their 40s+

Optimal Protein Podcast (Fast Keto) with Vanessa Spina: Fasting for Females: Research Review on Hormones and Intermittent Fasting!

Effect of Intermittent Fasting on Reproductive Hormone Levels in Females and Males: A Review of Human Trials

Effect of time-restricted eating on sex hormone levels in premenopausal and postmenopausal females

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished beef for a year plus $20 off. Yes, free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, that's really hard to find, by the way, and wild caught, sustainable, and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency, regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated.

I did so much research on ButcherBox. You can actually check out my blog post all about it at melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass-fed and grass-finished. That's really hard to find. They work personally with all of the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. 

If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry. Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal. It's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, "This is honestly one of the best steaks I have ever had in my entire life." On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks? And their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? 

ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year in every box of your subscription, plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. That's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for a year plus $20 off. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 320 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hi, Melanie. Hi, everyone. 

Melanie Avalon: How are you?

Vanessa Spina: Just ecstatic, full of gleed, the usual, every time we get to hang out. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I was just thinking about it. I don't know, I'm just so excited. [giggles] It's like going to a party. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, speaking of, I want to hear about this. You went to a musical festival where you burned things?

Vanessa Spina: This is so funny. This is so funny. So, it's a tradition in certain parts of Europe, but especially in Switzerland, Austria, central Europe, and Czech to mark the end of winter by blowing up either a snowman, which is my favorite, because it's just absolutely hilarious. The first time we saw it happen was actually in Switzerland in that big town square. We were just there. We actually just missed it, unfortunately. But they just like to mark the end of winter. They create a big bonfire and they put a snowman on the top of it, and in check, a little bit awkwardly, it's called the witch burning, but it's a tradition of doing the similar thing to the snowman. It's just like marking the end of winter and the end of the spirits of the winter. But I was telling Pete this week, I'm like, "They really need to rebrand the one in Czech," because although it's quite cute, it's like their Halloween. 

All the little kids, boys and girls dress up in witches' hats. They all do face painting. So, it's like their Halloween, where we kind of-- Halloween is like our thing with the witches, but they make it into a huge family day. So, on Sunday, we went up. It's a park just above us, at the top of Prague here, and it's all music festival all day with local artists. The kids just have everything, like, face painting, all kinds of activities. There was this one huge play area with just, like, Legos. Oh, there was a giant fire truck, which Luca was so excited about. An ambulance, a school bus, like all his favorite things. He loves service vehicles. So, just getting touch the wheels and do all that stuff was amazing. They had food trucks from everywhere. They had American barbecue, which is what we settled on because it's our favorite. But they had food from all over the world. So, it's like a huge, huge festival. It's like the size of several football fields. And then there's just like food stalls everywhere, music everywhere, and just fun balloons. And then at the end of the day, they do the big bonfire, and it just marks the end of winter and officially beginning of spring and the summer weather. 

Melanie Avalon: That is so cool. Can I ask you some questions? 

Vanessa Spina: Of course. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Wait, first of all, how long have you lived in the Czech Republic? 

Vanessa Spina: It's been about six, seven years now. We just came over here to do a year, but we just love it so much that we keep extending it. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay. Now I want to interview about this for an hour, which I will not. I'm so intrigued. Okay, so, holidays, what holidays are the same as the US?

Vanessa Spina: Mostly Christmas and Easter. But Easter is huge here. It's two weeks long. It's as big as Christmas and New Year's. And then they actually had a holiday this week on Monday, the May 1st, so right after the Bonfire Day. And then next Monday, they have another holiday. So, it's like May Day. They have their own holidays. So, there's some that don't correlate at all, and then there are the big major Christian holidays, Catholic holidays, I guess that coincide. But yeah, they're all over the place. So, Pete and I like to celebrate the Canadian holidays, the American holidays, and any European holidays that we can get in, because May as well just [giggles] take advantage of living all over the place. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Luca gets all the fun times. So, is that the most major holiday that we don't have here, probably? Is there another really big one like that? 

Vanessa Spina: I think this is probably the big one. But what's so cute, I'll have to tell you this is so May 1st on May Day, it's Lovers Day. And so, there's a hill, it's right where we live called Petrin Hill. And the whole hill gets covered in cherry blossoms. It's a tradition that you have to take your lover there and kiss them under the blossoms on May 1st. So, the whole hillside is just full of all these little sweet couples kissing. And Pete and I try to go. We walk through there all the time anyway to get a kiss. And on Monday, we couldn't go because of how the day worked out. And so, he went and brought me flowers home and held them above me and gave me a kiss. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, that's so cute. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a really cute holiday, like, Lovers Day. I don't think we have anything like that in North America. So, I think it's pretty unique. 

Melanie Avalon: Do you have Valentine's? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. There's Valentine's Day here. They celebrate it like the Hallmark holiday kind of things are coming more, but this one's more pure. It's like, just go get a kiss under some flowers. That's very Czech. They're very boho bohemian, like, hippie style. It's very sweet and very Czech. I'm not Czech at all, but I just appreciate as many different cultures as possible. So, yeah, it's a really cute one where you just kiss the person you love. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, that's so cute. I have one more question, especially because you mentioned the food. Last night, I was reading this really cool blog post about American restaurants and all these different countries, like, how countries view America and these American restaurants. It was pretty funny. They had one in the Czech Republic, actually. Is the food completely different? 

Vanessa Spina: It's pretty different. So, the first time I went to Pete's house for Easter, like, a family dinner, they did duck, like, roast duck with cabbage. It's like a sweet-sour cabbage with dumplings and I was like, "What is this?" It was so foreign to me, but I'm so used to it now. There're a lot of dishes that are very Czech or Hungarian or German style. So, you probably are a little bit familiar with your German background, but there's a lot of goulash kind of meals that are really popular in Czech. A lot of sausages, like, sausages with sauerkraut is really big. Obviously, the duck one. Schnitzel is more like the Austrian side, but schnitzel is really big here, which is fried turkey or chicken or sometimes pork that's breaded. It's my husband's favorite meal. So, the food is pretty different. When you have an American style restaurant or an American style food truck, it definitely is a nice treat to get something like get some authentic Texas, like brisket which is really popular in Czech the last few years. 

Melanie Avalon: Brisket. Oh, my goodness. It reminds me growing up, because you mentioned Germany, so I have family in Germany. I went over with my dad when I was five, and I just ate, basically bratwurst the whole time. I didn't super love it, but I liked it, because we went a lot. I remember I would go when I was a little bit older, like, eight or nine, and that's when I discovered schnitzel. I remember thinking, "Why did my dad not just get me schnitzel everywhere?" I don't know, I feel like it's much more comparable to American food than bratwurst. It's like fried chicken with cheese. 

Vanessa Spina: It's hilarious. Okay, I'm dying to know how the Taylor Swift concert went, because I saw some of your pictures and posts and your messages about how it went, but I need to just know everything. 

Melanie Avalon: It was the most amazing experience. I got into the Uber with my sister and almost started crying, like, before I was even there. [laughs] In the Uber, I was like, "Don't cry." But there were so many people. I realized I really like the Swifty audience. They're just all very nice. I was very surprised. I knew it would be very estrogen dominant. I knew it would be a lot of women. I thought there'd be more men, because I thought there'd be girls with their boyfriends. I could count how many men I saw. It was crazy. So, that was interesting. Had you been to a lot of concerts? I feel like I learned things. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, we were actually supposed to go to a concert together this month here, but it got canceled. Yeah, I try to go whenever we can. It's something that I miss the most though. I think of having children is, it's just not as easy to go to concerts, because most of them are not child friendly. So, you have to get childcare. It just makes it not as easy. But I actually took Luca to his first classical concert last week, because they did one for babies, which was amazing. But unless it's specifically for kids or if it's outdoors and there's a lawn area, then you can do something like that, which is fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the reason I ask, I learned-- I've been to quite a few, but this one was loud, and I really wish--

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I was googling this. Did I permanently damage my ears? The night before, I was like, "Oh, maybe I should order--" Did you know they make concert earplugs, like, specific for concerts? 

Vanessa Spina: I would totally get some of those, because sometimes you go and the bass is so loud that it's painful. Or, the next day you really feel it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, and there were so many screaming girls. I was screaming. Okay. I had so many out of body experience moments where I watched myself screaming. I didn't [laughs] hear screaming. I was like, "Oh, that's me [laughs] singing along." But in any case, so friends, they make concert earplugs, and I ordered them the night before, and they didn't come in time. And then I brought normal earplugs, and I didn't put them in, and I really, really wish I had because my ears still feel numb, like, I'm a little bit worried. I'm a little bit concerned. 

Vanessa Spina: Wait, how many people were there?

Melanie Avalon: The stadium fit 75,000, and I didn't see any open seats. [giggles] I heard this from a friend yesterday, apparently, what people would do-- I don't know if I would do this. This is too much energy for me. If they didn't have tickets, they would dress up, get ready, go and be on their phone on Ticketmaster, and wait for tickets to get released, and then buy them and go in and get them cheap. So, I really don't think there was any emptied seats. But that was a moment, because I know how many listeners we have for this show. So, I was looking at the stadium and I was like, "Oh, I can--" We don't have the whole stadium's worth, but I know a percentage of the stadium that we have. So, that was like a moment. I was like, "Oh, that's how many people listen to this show? It's a lot of people."

Vanessa Spina: I always think about that too when I'm at a big, like, a hockey game or a concert. And sometimes, I'll just google images of certain thousands of people, because it's so hard to visualize those kinds of numbers sometimes. So, I always think about that too. It's amazing how incredible these communities are, and this community is or other podcast communities, it's just so incredible. I think that's part of why I get so giddy, like, not just getting to interact with you, but the caliber of questions that are sent in and the caliber of people listening in this community are just so amazing. [giggles] That's what it made you think of. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm so grateful. An extension of that, I feel like Taylor Swift is very grateful. She's so nice [giggles] to the audience. 

Vanessa Spina: Your dress was so exquisitely stunning. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's so funny. So, for listeners, if you go on my Instagram, I posted pictures. I posted my tips for the concert, if you want to learn more. Oh, which really, speaking of-- Oh, wait. Yes, I know you have an iPhone, because we do iMessage. Do you know about AE lock on the iPhone? 

Vanessa Spina: No. Is this some filming technique? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Okay. So, friends, this is going to help you, if you ever go to a concert, game changer. I realize I might date myself, because stuff changes so fast. But as of right now, when you're having your iPhone, if you hold down, like, when you're taking the video, maybe a picture too, definitely a video. If you hold down where you want to focus, it locks. And then you put your finger to the right of the little box that pops up, and you just drag down or up, and you can change the exposure level, and then it locks that. So, if you want to get really crisp, because what you need to do for concerts, especially for people going to T Swift-- Actually, given how many listeners we have, probably are quite a few going. So, put your finger on Taylor, hold it down, it'll lock. Put your finger to the side, drag the exposure down, it'll be crystal clear, if you're close enough to zoom in like that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you got a really clear video. So, that's a super helpful tip. 

Melanie Avalon: That was the key. That was the key. Oh, but just really quick, and then we can get into questions. The dress, it's so funny. It was a really, really intense dress. It was a black corset with this huge tool red thing. So, many people stopped me. My sister and I started counting, but then we stopped counting. I felt famous, because people get me, like, stopping me. People would ask for pictures with me, and then multiple people said they were googling my dress, because they thought it was some secret Taylor Swift dress. "Where's your dress from? We were googling it." I was like, "It's just from Amazon. It's not a secret message." So, yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I know. She does those secret messages, and Easter eggs, and stuff, so that I can see how people would have thought that. But yeah, you guys have to go check out Melanie's dress, because it's just amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: It was amazing. Wait, but do you like Taylor? 

Vanessa Spina: I do. Yeah, I've always loved her music. I feel like I was someone who liked her for a long time. It's been maybe seven or eight years. I feel people now are like, "Oh, she's gotten--" Her popularity has surged recently. Definitely saw that with all the concert drama that happened. People were just trying to get tickets for hours and hours, and it just seems like-- Yeah, she's popped off in the last few years.

Melanie Avalon: Is she going in Europe? I feel like I heard that, but I might have dreamed that. 

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Maybe I dreamed that. I don't know. Maybe we both did. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait. I'm just googling it really quickly. 

Vanessa Spina: That would be exciting. I know we have listeners all over Europe too. 

Melanie Avalon: I might be thinking of Trans-Siberian Orchestra. That's the other thing I always go to. But yes. So, it was amazing. Although, it would have been more amazing if I had been there with Peter Attia. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, [laughs] that was so funny that he went with his daughter and the outfit that he wore. That was classic. That was classic. 

Melanie Avalon: I further appreciate that now, especially going and not seeing any men. 

Vanessa Spina: What's your Peter Attia origin story, just before we get into the first question? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness, this is such a fun conversation. 

Vanessa Spina: How did you first come across him? 

Melanie Avalon: Such a good question, Vanessa. [laughs] What is your Peter Attia origin story? I don't know. Wait, I have to think about this. What is yours? 

Vanessa Spina: I know. I can start. I heard him the first time on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and it was at the time when Tim Ferriss was geeking out with Peter Attia about ketones, and ketone esters and how he had been experimenting with them. They tasted like gasoline. And it was around the time that he interviewed Dr. Dom D'Agostino. That was the first time I ever heard him or heard him speak. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. What's very interesting about this is two things. One, I literally I don't remember. And two, I just feel like I've been listening to him for so long. But his podcast, The Drive is not relatively that old, because I've been listening to Robb Wolf since 2012, Dave Asprey since 2012, but The Drive, it's not that old. Yeah, I'm not sure when it started, but I know it's not-- Oh, maybe 2018, maybe?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I guess, three, four years. Maybe it's in its fifth year or something like that. Definitely around the time that we both started podcasting, because we were all so in sync. 

Melanie Avalon: True. It's crazy how much we've been in sync with everything and didn't even realize. It might come to me. But I'm going to think about that, because I-- [crosstalk] 

Vanessa Spina: Let's put a pin in it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Okay. [laughs] Moving on. Oh, okay. Shall we answer some listener questions? It's going to come to me in the middle of the night. I'm going to be like, "Eureka."

[laughter] 

Oh, man. Okay. 

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So, to start things off, okay. So, this first question, I'm super excited about this and I picked it for two reasons. Would you like to know what the two reasons are? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, of course. 

Melanie Avalon: One, I'm actually interviewing-- Have you interviewed Izabella Wentz? 

Vanessa Spina: No, but she sounds like an actress, but she probably isn't. 

Melanie Avalon: She has quite a few really big books on Hashimoto's. She wrote Hashimoto's Protocol and she wrote Root Cause, and they're both New York Times bestsellers. So, I've been really familiar with that work for a while. But she has a new book that just came out called Adrenal Transformation Protocol, and it's all about adrenal fatigue, which is, something people debate about whether it exists or not, which I find so interesting. 

Vanessa Spina: It's fascinating. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's really interesting. So, I'm interviewing her tomorrow actually. And so, I've been thinking a lot about fasting and hormones. So, I was like, "Oh, this will be a good thing to dive into a little bit more." And then two more of the reason I put this in here was, you had an excellent interview or episode recently on Optimal Protein Podcast where you talked all about. Was it a new study with women's hormones that came out? 

Vanessa Spina: It's a 2022 review and it has some incredible researchers in it, including Krista Varady, who was one of the original researchers that did all the research with Dr. Mark Mattson that first really sparked people's attention when it comes to intermittent fasting. If you heard of 5:2 and all that, she was one of the lead researchers there. So, yeah, it's 2022. So, relatively recent.

Melanie Avalon: Because I was researching it some more last night, and I was looking at another recent Krista Varady's study, but this was one where they found nothing really changed, but DHA was reduced. That's a different study, right? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, with this one and we can obviously link it in the show notes. But this was last summer of 2022, mid-June, it was called the effect of intermittent fasting on reproductive hormone levels in females and males, a review of human trials. They found that there's, one, so little research done on fasting and hormones, and two, that there's a really big gap like, knowledge gap, research gap in this space. And so, they wanted to do a review of human trials on intermittent fasting and find all the studies that have been done on intermittent fasting, and what happened to women's hormones and also to men's hormones. That's one of the reasons I really like it. Not only is it recent, but it's a review of human trials. Not rodent trials or animal studies, just human trials. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Which month did you say it was? 

Vanessa Spina: June 2022. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Yes. So, the study I was looking at last night was October 2022. I have a question for you about reviews. Okay. Because I feel like when people see reviews and I love reviews, and I felt your love of reviews just now in the energy in your voice, they're really a nice way to get a comprehensive picture and look at a lot of studies all at once and see what the trends are actually showing. Because I think we can get caught up in the minutiae of a single study and use it to try to either learn something or maybe prove a point, even. It's hard to see a broader picture. As they say, can't see the forest for the trees type situation. How do you feel though? I always wonder about with reviews, if there's a potential for bias. Because when you read the beginning, they always say what they chose to include and what they didn't include. And so, I feel like if you wanted to make a review and prove a point, all you have to do is decide your criteria to include to go that direction, if you would, maybe. What are your thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Absolutely. I'm a big fan of reviews, but I do think that they can be manipulated, and that's one thing that a lot of people don't realize. So, sometimes people will-- I think it was earlier this year, I remember one of my listeners of the Optimal Protein Podcast was like, "What do you think of this review on intermittent fasting?" It was a negative on intermittent fasting. I actually interviewed Dr. Mark Mattson specifically about that review, and he really opened my eyes, because he said, "Well, you're already familiar with all the intermittent fasting studies that we've talked about." We had already talked about on that interview, and all the beneficial effects they'd had. He's like, "They excluded all of those from this review." So, they took only the studies that had negative results with intermittent fasting and did a review of those basically. 

So, I think they definitely can be problematic and they definitely can be used to, like you said, reinforce or make a point. But I do think they can also provide a lot of insight, because like you said, you're aggregating a lot of different studies together. I think you have to look through the ones that they picked, and what they chose to exclude, and why in this review, because there are so few human trials on intermittent fasting, and especially reproductive hormone levels in females and males. I think they included everything that they could find, but I'm probably biased as well towards intermittent fasting. But it's just such an awesome review. I can't wait to dig into it more. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, so speaking of, the reason we're talking about all of this is we got a really great question from Nicole and she wanted to know, "Is fasting good for your hormones? I am hearing that it is extremely beneficial for women nearing and in their 40s plus." I will say, before we answer this, so for the duration of the show, when Cynthia Thurlow was the cohost of this show, we did answer a lot of questions about women's hormones. So, actually, friends, listeners, if you go to ifpodcast.com, that's our website, and there is a search feature there. The reason I point this out is because I think people don't really take advantage of it. You can search. And because we have transcripts of all the episodes, it will find pretty much all the episodes where we talked about anything. It's a really comprehensive search. So, you can type in, like, hormones, and it'll come up with all the different episodes where we've talked about it. But in any case, we haven't talked about it yet with Vanessa. And then, like I mentioned, she talked about this really awesome study recently. That study was the takeaway, beneficial or not so beneficial for fasting and women's hormones? 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. I loved so many things about it, but I have to start out by saying that it answers your question. It actually is directed to your question, because you're specifically asking about women's hormones and 40s and above. In this research review, they specifically focused on women who were around or nearing menopause, so perimenopausal women. They did specifically focus also on women who have some obesity, but that wasn't the case in every single study. But in general, it does fit the age range. I know perimenopause, it typically starts around 45. I'm not an expert on it like Cynthia was, and I loved all the episodes that you guys did on women, either peri or post menopause, I learned so much from listening to your episodes with Cynthia. It's something that I definitely have in mind for the future. 

When it comes to, I think early 40s, in some cases, people go into perimenopause early, but typically the age is around mid-40s. I think it still covers around the age range that you're talking about. So, the review specifically wanted to address this question of whether intermittent fasting is beneficial for women in fasting. They also talked about males. I addressed that on my podcast episode and some issues that I had with it as well. If you want to listen to a full deep dive and breakdown, which is a whole episode just on this one review. But what they wanted to really assess and as I said, they determined that there was this research gap that they wanted to be able to further clarify what the effects are of intermittent fasting, specifically on sex hormones. They found that there's been more and more evidence showing that various intermittent fasting regimens are actually effective for decreasing body weight, improving insulin sensitivity, improving blood pressure, and markers of oxidative stress in adults with obesity, in addition to having a lot of beneficial effects on hormones. They went through every single hormone that is in some way related to female fertility or to even milk production with prolactin they went through, all the androgens. 

They have really had two main findings. The first one I just want to mention, because there has been a lot of fear around intermittent fasting and fasting for women. A lot of it comes from one rat study that was done by Kumar et al. and it's one of the ones that a lot of the popular media sites all the time uses, like clickbaity titles and stuff. They did an experiment where they had very young rats, I think they were three months old that did 24 hours of water fasting every other day for 12 weeks. Now, if you extrapolate this to humans, it would be like fasting nine-year-olds for a month, every other month for a year. [giggles] It's such an extreme amount of fasting for rats, because they have such shorter lifespans than we do, and also because they were only three months old. 

Fasting is not recommended for children because of all the growth that needs to happen during that time. So, it's a bizarre study. It did contribute to our scientific knowledge, but it's cited all the time, because in that study, it did have some negative effects on women's hormones. They had negative changes in the menstrual cycle, in the blood levels of estradiol, and in luteinizing hormone, which decreased compared to the other control group. So, I just want to mention that they call it out, let's say, in the review and say, this is the reason why there's been a lot of fear around fasting being associated with having negative effects on women's hormones. 

Now, what they found in their review is that the opposite is actually true, that intermittent fasting is very beneficial for a lot of different hormones. So, they looked at all the reproductive hormones, they looked at estrogen, at testosterone in women, androgens, gonadotropins, which are all the hormones associated with reproduction, including LH, luteinizing hormone, and prolactin, which is the hormone associated with milk production. I don't want to take the entire episode to go through what they found, but with every single hormone in all of the trials that they looked at, they saw beneficial effects. So, what they found with estradiol that after 12 weeks, women who had PCOS, when their participants front loaded their calories to have more than half of their daily calories at breakfast and before dinner that it had a really beneficial effect for women who have PCOS where they have excess estrogen production in their adipose tissue and their fat tissue. This can actually impair the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. 

So, having too much estrogen and androgens, which are hormones that are more so male hormones, is the primary cause of not ovulating and having when you have PCOS. So, what they found a lot in the review as well is that eating before 04:00 PM had the most benefits, which I think is another big point, because they also brought up some circadian rhythm effects as well. So, they also looked at sex hormone binding globulin, which affects women's fertility, and they found positive results on that. They also looked at lowering androgens, which are the hormones that you don't want to have excess levels of in women, and it had beneficial effects on that. It also had beneficial effects on the gonadotropins, which are all the peptide hormones that regulate our ovarian function and are essential for normal growth, sexual development, and reproduction. So, like, follicle stimulating hormone, FSH, which is secreted right before you ovulate, and luteinizing hormone as well, which peaks on the day that you ovulate. 

They found that in previous studies, weight loss reduced this LH and FSH ratio, they call it. But in this trial that they were looking at in this review, they found that young women with obesity and PCOS who did an eight-hour time-restricted eating regimen for five weeks, their LH and FSH levels were unchanged, even though participants lost a small amount of weight and fat mass from baseline. Finally, they found that intermittent fasting was safe, had no negative effects in another study on prolactin levels, which again are the hormones that affect breastfeeding and breast milk production. 

So, their overall conclusions were that fasting genuinely decreases the hormones that you don't want to have too high levels of the androgens so, for example, testosterone and FAI, and at the same time, increasing sex hormone binding globulin in premenopausal females with obesity. They really conclude that there's a lot of promise for the use of intermittent fasting in treating women who have hyperandrogenism, conditions like PCOS. They really want to note, especially that a lot of these findings were consistently found when people were eating most of their food at breakfast and lunch. And so, front loading the day is something that's really associated with the most benefits, I think, when it comes to intermittent fasting, or at least finishing eating by around 04:00 PM, especially when it comes to lowering the androgen markers. They also concluded that fasting does not appear to have any negative effect on the reproductive hormones like estrogen, gonadotropins, LH, FSH, and prolactin. And of course, more research is needed to confirm these findings, but I think it's a very extensive review and I thought it was so well done. 

Melanie Avalon: That was so incredible. Thank you so much for doing that. How many studies was it a review of, did you say? 

Vanessa Spina: So, they had five human trials of time-restricted eating, one human trial of the 5:2 diet, and one study that specifically examined the effects of meal timing on reproductive hormones. So, that's seven. 

Melanie Avalon: So, there's about seven? 

Vanessa Spina: They excluded cohort and observational studies, fasting performed as a religious practice or Ramadan or Seventh Day Adventist, trials that were less than one week, and studies that combined the data for men and women. They had five human trials of time-restricted eating, one human trial of the 5:2 diet, and one study that examined the effects of meal timing on reproductive hormones. So, that looks like seven. I thought it was eight, unless I'm missing one here. 

Melanie Avalon: Does it say how many there originally were and then how many they ended up using? 

Vanessa Spina: How many they excluded? Okay, yeah, so they had--

Melanie Avalon: I'm just curious. 

Vanessa Spina: Okay. It says the number that they excluded, which was 3, 6, 10. So, there must have been 17 or 18 in total and they excluded 10 based on the fact that they were too short or they combined the data of men and women. 

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Some things to emphasize from what you were talking about. I think we talked about this recently on another episode. I really just think it's a huge disservice how we use the rodent trials as not in general, because it's a great place to start to look at mechanisms for fasting. Well, women's hormones specifically, but just a lot of things, because I don't know what the equivalent-- What do you think the equivalent would be? I've thought about this a lot, and I don't know if there are any studies that have done this. I'd be really curious. Intermittent fasting, like the way we practice it. So, a 16:8 pattern or a one meal a day. I wonder what that would look like in a rat, like the equivalent? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's so interesting because we've gotten, like you said, so much good data from rodent studies, especially when it comes to life extension and caloric restriction. That was the first big area of research where people started to get really fired up saying, "Well, if we calorically restrict rodents by 30%, they are living so much longer." I don't know if we would have had those findings if it weren't for rodent studies. There're so many other areas that they've contributed to. But again, that's a finding that, like you said, you could look into the mechanisms and also see, "Okay, well, life extensions happening from the 30% caloric restriction." But when it comes to their lifespans, I think it's pretty hard. I think you could probably ask Dr. Dom D'Agostino or some actual lab scientists their thoughts. They would probably have some ideas that they've formed on it. 

I don't think I've formed any opinions on it, but I just know that with that Kumar et al. study that it is often used that-- it's not applicable to us at all. The only way it's applicable is, like I said, if you're starving children for a month, every other month for a year. Of course, that's going to negatively affect their reproductive hormones. So, I don't think anyone would ever do that kind of approach either. Not in a normal setting, unless they were morbidly obese or something and they were in a hospital, and you would never fast children. That's the main point. We can't extrapolate those results, because they were three months old. So, a scientist who actually does some of these studies, like even Dr. Mark Mattson, he would probably have some really good ideas on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I've talked about this before on the show. I remember I heard Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about this, and then I did find the study that referenced it, but it was talking about how the amount of weight loss that a rodent can lose in that amount of time. It's a shocking percent. They can lose up to X amount of their body weight and it's a very, very high number. I think that really puts in perspective, because you realize, "Oh." So, these studies, the equivalent fasting is us losing-- I don't want to put the wrong number, but it was a very high, like, half their body weight or something. So, it's just not the same thing. I think it's done quite a disservice that we make these assumptions, because like you said, it's like the equivalent of a child. Of course, we're probably going to see negative effects on stress-related hormones if it's that extent of fasting, the analogy.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. One last point I wanted to make is something that I've been talking about a lot on my podcast recently is, there's been so much talk in the last year or two, negative talk about intermittent fasting, headlines especially saying, "Well, it turns out intermittent fasting is only as effective as caloric restriction." That is the takeaway that these articles and people are having. But everyone is forgetting that the whole reason intermittent fasting exploded when it did several years ago is because they found that intermittent fasting was as effective as caloric restriction. [laughs] That was the whole point. It was like, "Wait, you can get the same fat loss results as doing a chronic diet without having to chronically diet." Now it's being turned around and kind of used against it, which I find so funny, but people constantly message me like, "What do you think about this?" But this is the whole reason why we all got interested in it is because we could get great results without having to do the caloric restriction for prolonged period of time. So, you can get all those amazing effects from the metabolic switching, not feel hungry, not feel like you're chronically dieting, but get the same results. That's the whole point. So, I think it's humorous that it's being twisted around now as though it's some kind of new discovery.

Melanie Avalon: That's so ironic. You just can't win. That's the definition of you just can't win. Oh, my goodness. 

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Another question about that study. Did they look at DHEA? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, sorry, I talked about this in the podcast episode I did about it. And so, when they were looking at the androgens in women under hyperandrogenism, which is a medical condition when you have two high levels of androgens, they included testosterone, DHEAS, androstenedione, and FAI, which is the free androgen index. It's a ratio that you divide the total testosterone by sex hormone binding globulin and then multiply it by 100. So, they looked at DHEAS.

Melanie Avalon: There was not a change or--?

Vanessa Spina: In females, it was part of all the androgens that decreased. There were three studies that they looked at which had enough to determine the effect of intermittent fasting on the androgen markers in females. So, the first one with premenopausal women with obesity, they did a 5:2 diet and they fasted with 500 calories two days per week. And after 24 weeks, the free androgen index significantly decreased with a 7% weight loss versus baseline DHEAS, testosterone, and androstenedione on the other hand remained unchanged. Then there were two other studies where they were studying the effects of fasting on androgens in women with PCOS. They did an eight-hour time-restricted eating trial. Young women with PCOS and obesity had all their calories between 08:00 AM and 04:00 PM, and then fasted with water for the rest of the day for five weeks. It significantly decreased body weight by 2%, along with the free androgen index and total testosterone levels. 

Then finally, Jakubowicz et al., which I hear the study cited all the time compared the effects of eating over 50% of your calories at dinner with eating over 50% of your calories at breakfast in females with PCOS and they found that the free androgen index, DHEAS, androstenedione decreased significantly in the breakfast group relative to the dinner group. So, they really emphasize for women with PCOS who want to lower those androgens that they try to eat all of their calories for the day by 04:00 PM and also to front load, especially the breakfast and lunch. 

Melanie Avalon: So, that was still a fasting study, it was just loaded a certain direction?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was called effects of caloric intake timing on insulin resistance and hyperandrogenism in lean women with PCOS. Yeah, they were front loading the calories early in the day versus backloading the calories later in the day.

Melanie Avalon: But they were still fasting or were they still eating all day? 

Vanessa Spina: They were eating in an eight-hour eating window. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Cool. 

Vanessa Spina: 08:00 AM to 04:00 PM. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, sorry. Oh, 08:00 to 04:00? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and then just water from 04:00 PM until 08:00 AM.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Got you. Yeah, the reason I was asking about the DHEA was the one I was looking at last night, which was also, like I said, Krista Varady, her people. So, it was called Effect of time-restricted eating on sex hormone levels in premenopausal and postmenopausal females. Again, it was October 2022. It's always interesting reading-- You can really tell what their goal is or what thesis they're trying to discuss because the objective, it says, is concerns have been raised regarding the impact of time-restricted eating on sex hormones in females. This study examined how TRE affects sex steroids and premenopausal and postmenopausal females. So, kind of speaking to what we were just talking about how there's this kind of fear out there. Even in the intro and discussion, they talk about the issues with that rodent study and they talk about how it's like the equivalent of a-- Was it a 12-year-old, a 9-year-old? 

Vanessa Spina: A 9-year-old. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 9-year-old. Although these findings are concerning because they're referencing the rat findings, they say the female rats were very young, i.e., three months old, which corresponds to human aged 9 years old. TRE is not recommended for children under the age of 12 because it has the potential to negatively impact growth. I would have thought they would have said older than 12 even. But in any case, so this study what I thought was really interesting. I think this is a good example going back to what we're talking about with the thesis that you're trying to champion. I feel like if somebody else had done this study, they could have made a completely different headline because basically what they found was that TRE in the study, so that the way it was setup, so, it was actually a secondary analysis of a trial. They basically went back and looked at another trial, which was eight weeks for four to six hours in adults with obesity and they reexamined the data specifically this issue of female hormones. They found, in general, it didn't really affect hormones. There wasn't really that effect that we would anticipate based on all the fear mongering that's been out there. They did find a drop in DHEA. What I was talking about was the headline, I feel like if somebody who, not that people want to demonize fasting. If the intention was to add to the fear, I feel like they would have made the headline, fasting negatively affects DHEA. Literally, that would have been the headline. That would have been the introduction. It's just so interesting how you can-- But the way they spin it is their conclusion is that the study suggests short-term TRE, which produces minimal weight loss, has little effect on sex steroid levels in premenopausal or postmenopausal females with obesity. These findings will undoubtedly require confirmation by well-powered RCTs. 

They mentioned the DHEA a little bit earlier, but what's also interesting is when they talk about the DHEA, they talk about how reductions in DHEA actually may be advantageous in premenopausal females with obesity, because they can translate into a greater reduction in breast cancer risk. They do talk about the negatives though as well, but they do note that the DHEA was still in normal range in the study. So, it's not like it dropped to below normal range. Again, this is just one study, but I just find it really interesting. A nice takeaway about it is that they didn't really see a problematic effect on hormones, but they did see a drop in DHEA and just goes back to what I was saying earlier about how I feel you can spin anything anyway, because these are people who are clearly pro fasting, I mean, it's Krista Varady. So, yeah. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, going back to the original question, which was from Nicole, she's hearing that fasting is extremely beneficial for women, especially nearing their 40s. What I find is a common theme throughout a lot of these reviews is that, if you have something that's out of whack from baseline, which so many of us do these days from our modern lifestyles, whether you're having too high androgens, too high estrogen, obesity linked with PCOS, or infertility from too high levels of androgens which is also related to PCOS or you're having insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome from obesity and poor body composition. Intermittent fasting can really help correct those situations. I think that most of the studies that examine that find that to be true. If something's out of whack, intermittent fasting can really help correct it. 

I think a question that is probably not so much examined is, in average people who are normal and healthy and don't have anything, that's out of alignment, is fasting still beneficial for hormones. I think that for the most part, seeing that people who come to intermittent fasting usually have something that they're trying to sort out or fix or improve. The people that I know who everything is functioning perfectly for them, they're not really interested in this stuff. So, that's why these studies are done, these reviews are done, is to try and help people who are facing issues like this. There's just so many people who are unnecessarily suffering from some of the symptoms that can be related to having your hormones out of whack. So, it's really encouraging at least in a lot of these reviews, they're seeing overall positive results. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. And to that point, I agree so much. I would love to see more studies in-- I don't want to say normal people, but people without obesity, normal weights, that would be really, really amazing. Going back to what I was talking about when I was cohosting with Cynthia, she's definitely very pro fasting for women's hormones. A huge takeaway I just took away from that chapter of the show was the profound beneficial effects that, if implemented correctly, fasting can have on women's hormones. I think something to probably end with about this whole topic is, I think people confuse oftentimes fasting with over restriction in that fasting by itself-- In my opinion, fasting by itself does not mandate or necessitate an overly restrictive state for the body, but it can become overly restrictive if done that way, and you can stack it on top of other stressors. So, if you're overexercising, undereating, and fasting, that might just be a perfect storm of hormonal issues. It's not necessarily the fasting per se. It's the over restriction of everything. I think that's important to keep in mind. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, absolutely. Well, are you ready for next question? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I think we're probably out of time. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you're right. Next episode. Are you ready for the next episode? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes.

[laughter] 

Vanessa Spina: I'm still getting used to how this works. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. Wow. Time flies by when you're having fun. [giggles] Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, for listeners who would like to dive deeper into all of this, we will put links to everything in the show notes. The show notes are at ifpodcast.com/episode320. Again, they will have a transcript and links to everything that we talked about. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Oh, I do want to mention, because I haven't picked the winner yet. Although, by the time this comes out, I'll have to make note of when this comes out, you can still enter our giveaway. I'm giving away over $500 worth of Beautycounter products which is Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare, free of endocrine disruptors which can be messing with your hormones. Speaking of, it can be messing of your hormones and actually can be a big crutch in weight loss actually. So, you can win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products, if you go to Apple Podcasts and write a new review for the show and/or update your old review. So, everybody can enter to win. Just make sure that it includes what you're enjoying having Vanessa on the show or what you're looking forward to having Vanessa on the show, just a way to help welcome her. And then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will submit you to enter to win. I guess, now I can mention because Vanessa, you have Beautycounter link now, right? 

Vanessa Spina: I do, I am official. You've converted me to the Beautycounter life and I'm so excited about it. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I am too. So, now friends, you can shop with both of us. We both have links. So, beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/vanessaspina. So, that is super awesome. Just to wrap everything up, you can submit your own questions to the show by emailing that email questions@ifppodcast.com or you can go to ifppodcast.com and you can submit questions directly on the site. And lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. So, anything from you Vanessa before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: As always, I can't wait to get into the next episode with you and just continuing to answer these wonderful questions. 

Melanie Avalon: I know. I'm just so happy. I just love that I get to talk about these fasting studies with somebody who cares, and [giggles] hopefully, people like listening. But yeah, no, I had a great time and I look forward to talking to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait. See you then. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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May 28

Episode 319: Romantic Compatibility, Protein Powders, Detox Diets, Smooth Skin, Cellular Renewal, Retinols, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At Melanieavalon.Com/Insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% off InsideTracker’s new Ultimate
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SHOW NOTES

INSIDETRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off InsideTracker’s New Ultimate Plan— Complete With Estradiol, Progesterone, And TSH.

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SUPPLEMENTS: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

stay up to date on vanessa's new protein supplement at toneprotein.com

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Sue - Smooth skin

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Also For A Limited Time Grapefruit Salt Is BACK! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

Listener Q&A: Tara - What are your thoughts on retinols?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to episode 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 319 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. 

Vanessa Spina: Hi, Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: I have a question for you, Vanessa. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yay. 

Melanie Avalon: Is love blind?

Vanessa Spina: That is a great question. I think it definitely can be. What do you think? 

Melanie Avalon: I have a lot of thoughts about this. [laughs] So, for listeners, Vanessa and I realize we're both big Love is Blind fans, the reality TV show, which I don't normally watch, like, I don't watch any other reality TV. I don't know why I'm obsessed with that show. Do you watch reality TV? 

Vanessa Spina: I do. I like relationship shows like this one. They're kind of my mental relaxation. I'm just fascinated by interpersonal dynamics and especially what generates chemistry between people, especially what generates chemistry in a couple. What is it that causes chemistry between these two people that it doesn't and these other and I find it endlessly fascinating. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so fascinating, especially when there're all these different options. You could be very physically attracted to somebody and emotionally attracted to them and like them as a person, or you could be physically attracted to them and not like them as a person, or you could really like them as a person and not be physically attracted to them. There're so many options. It's like what you just said, what is that visceral, chemical, physical attraction, like what's creating that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I find it endlessly fascinating because I know some of it is happening beneath the surface. We all know about pheromones, but then there's these fascinating concepts like your histocompatibility complex. While women who go out to bars and meet men, they've done research where women will be more attracted to the scent of men. Those pheromones of the men that have an immune system that is compatible with theirs for their offspring. The women that get hit on the most at bars are the ones who are ovulating, there's so much going on that we don't even know. It all has to do with reproduction. [chuckles] 

Melanie Avalon: Also, apparently, I haven't read the book yet, but I know there's a whole book about this about how being on birth control affects who you're attracted to. And so, women will be on birth control, be attracted, select a partner, get married and go off of birth control and no longer be attracted to their partner. 

Vanessa Spina: That's the same study I'm talking about with the histocompatibility complex. The women who could smell who were not on birth control they could tell which men had the compatible immune system. But the ones who were on birth control, when they smelled their sweat, they couldn't tell the difference and they couldn't figure out which men were compatible for their offspring. It's unbelievable. 

Melanie Avalon: What I'm also very, very fascinated by and this goes back to the, is love blind question. I find it really interesting. I feel like I have to tiptoe saying this, not around you, just around the world [laughs] that we look down upon listing a person's attractiveness as a quality that we “should be attracted to.” You're supposed to like intelligent people or kind people that's okay to “like” and when I say okay, I mean sort of the way it's presented in the world. But it's like, oh, if you like somebody because they're very attractive to you, that's somehow seen as shallow when in reality all of these things are because this is my thoughts, you're looking for a mate that is most compatible with you. So, it's giving you something you need. So, the intelligence of another person. You're looking for a mate that will A, create intelligent offspring, B, be able to take care of you and survive in the world. 

And then with the physical attraction, it probably goes back to that physical compatibility. The kindness would probably be like a whole. I don't know, there's probably debates about that, about whether we're naturally altruistic or not. Basically, my point is I find it really interesting that it's kind of looked down upon to use physical attraction as something that would be valid. I feel like thesis of Love is Blind is that love should be blind. I feel that's their thesis.

So, for listeners who haven't seen that show, people speed date without ever actually seeing the other person and they have to propose and they meet in the real world and do they get married or not. And then they decide on the wedding day if they're actually getting married or not. But just my thoughts, I feel like that show is championing this idea that love should be blind and that we shouldn't base on physical looks. But I just feel evolutionarily, I don't know, wouldn't you want to be with somebody who you are physically attracted to. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it is looked at in a superficial way, but I think it's a negative when people are making their whole decision, like, centered around that person's attractiveness. What I love about Love is Blind is that it takes the physicality out of the equation so that people can get to know each other more deeply. It's fascinating as a concept to watch people get to know each other without knowing what the other person looks like and making all those connections. But when they do meet in person, I think it's such a great point that you bring up about the importance of physical attraction because sometimes they don't work out and the main reason is because they're not physically attracted to each other, even though they've made that mental and emotional connection. The physical chemistry is really important aside from just sexual chemistry, but I think there's also components.

Like when I met Pete, I knew that we're going to have really beautiful offspring. I just knew I had a feeling. I know that part of my attraction to him was because I knew that he would impart qualities to our children that would beneficial and it wasn't just because he was hot. You know what I mean? I do think it's an interesting point because it is why I've personally always preferred just meeting people in person because you really can form so many of those micro decisions when you meet someone in the flesh, but you can also form amazing connections with people without even ever meeting them.

Melanie Avalon: Well, first of all, listeners, Vanessa's son Luca is just the cutest thing ever. He's going to be such a beautiful, I mean, he is a beautiful human being, but he's going to grow into such a wonderful man. I can tell. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much. 

Melanie Avalon: Very excited for his future. Yeah. That's something they often say with dating apps today that I feel like I just keep hearing this. If you are interested in somebody on the dating app, you should meet them sooner rather than later, rather than draw out this long conversation, because you just won't know until you see them in person. Like you just said, you can answer so many micro decision questions, I think, about attraction and compatibility just by meeting somebody in person. So, yes, dating thoughts. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I love that we're both fascinated with the show, and I think the whole world has been really I mean, I know this podcast is coming out a little bit after when it's all sort of been blowing up, but it's a really fascinating concept. It's a lot of fun to watch. I was just amazed this season by how many couples really formed beautiful connections, loving connections, like real connections, and stayed together. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I was too, because I was watching it and I was like, “I don't think any of them are staying together.” [laughs] This is like a lost cause. But then, yeah, also something I like about the show, not to make this all about that show with most reality TV, I get the feeling, and I've been on a lot of reality TV shows, so I know this from the other side. Even, oh, sidenote, speaking of humans and evolutionary, I was on a National Geographic docuseries called How Human Are You? It was about all of this and it was like a speed dating thing and they were analyzing how humans interact and speed date, but it was just a little bit upsetting because it was all staged. I was like, I thought National Geographic was real, but it was casted, basically. So, the Love is Blind, I feel like they actually have non-actors. It's actually real people. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, they're not trying to create fake storylines and things like that. 

Melanie Avalon: So fun times. Well, anything new in your world before we jump into all the fasting stuff? 

Vanessa Spina: I've been working on launching my new line of protein supplements. I've been working with your partner Scott at MD Logic. I'm just having so much fun with our conversations and how it's all going and I'm just really, really excited to be working on that. I'm working on some other just really exciting projects. I feel like everything is happening at once as it tends to. 

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited for you with that. I don't know how much you can share, but like protein powder-type situations? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've been wanting to make one for years. I've been looking into it for years. With Scott and MD Logic, I think it's just the perfect partnership because he has such high standards, which I know is why you partnered with him. And I think it's just the perfect fit. We're talking about a couple of initial products that we're going to do, but all of them are centered around helping women, especially men as well to build more lean mass and improve their body composition. I just want to have the highest quality possible protein supplement out there without fillers that's really clean and that you can trust. You can trust that it'll help you to optimize your muscle protein synthesis without having to just be eating protein all day long or drinking massive protein shakes. So, I'm really excited about the potential. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. This is so thrilling for so many reasons. Well, one, we get questions all the time about recommended protein powders. So now we will have a go to and it will be one that I can feel so, so good about because I personally don't really use protein powders, but I have in the past and the amount of-- there're just so many brands and they are full of so many terrible ingredients. It's really, really hard to find good quality clean protein powders, at least in my experience, because I have gone through periods where I would play around with them. That's really exciting that you'll be able to make the best of the best. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that's the biggest thing for me is I've gotten just endless questions over the years on the different protein powders and I've always stayed brand agnostic, but I always try to post guides on what to look for in a really good high quality protein supplement. The number one thing is checking the amount of leucine that's listed. So, the more detailed the packaging is, especially when it comes down to the individual amino acids. You can look at the ingredients and see the order that they're listed in to find out what it's made of. 

But if you are looking at a really high-quality brand, they'll tell you how much leucine is in each serving. That amount of leucine should be, for example, with weight, it should be at around 11%. So, if it's not 2 to 3 grams for a scoop of 20 to 30 grams, then something would be off. And if you just don't see a breakdown of the amino acids of the exact amount of leucine, then I would question it. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily trying to be shady or anything, but I would just question it because you would want to see that they understand the importance of those leucine amounts and that they're putting in all the right things. 

Melanie Avalon: That's so incredible. Yeah, I think that's something I mean, I imagine that people who are really into the bodybuilding sphere and really into all of that will be aware of it. But I'm just thinking about the audience on this show in general. I feel a lot of people are not aware of, there needs to be some education surrounding this. That's so exciting that you can provide the education and you'll be able to provide the resource. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. When this airs, I think that will probably be coming out around this time. I'm not sure. I just had a call with Scott yesterday about this, but we're probably launching subscriptions for my berberine supplement, which is exciting. We're trying to figure out right now. 

Vanessa Spina: Let me ask you, what's new with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, just launching that and we're trying to figure out right now what bottle size to go with and so much fun, yes. I was polling the audience. It's really interesting too. It's all these little things you don't think about until you have a brand like things, just so many decisions and hours and hours of conversations that people just have no idea. Like talking about bottle size for an hour. 

Vanessa Spina: I love when I chat to Scott. I feel like I'm talking to you too. It just flies by. It's like I'm in the zone. I'm like, it's been 2 hours. I'm like, “Oh, my God, I got to go. I got to go make dinner.” 

Melanie Avalon: I know. That's one of the problems about-- Scott's into all this stuff. Listeners are familiar with him because we've had him on the show, maybe three or four times now. When you launch your protein powder, we'll have to have him on and do an episode. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, what is new with you? 

Melanie Avalon: Really? Just yeah, working on the supplements we are starting just really quick brief teaser, my next supplement. So, we launched the Magnesium Threonate which has been amazing. Which I think I told them to send it to you. So, hopefully it's hard to get stuff to Vanessa over in your land, but you should be getting it soon. That's been amazing for I've been taking it every night for sleep and relaxation. Now, baby teaser, we're starting on my next supplement, which is probably going to be in the chlorella, spirulina world. So, I'm very, very excited about that. And then Friday, I'm seeing the Taylor Swift concert. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for you. I was laughing the other night because I was on Twitter, and I was like, I think I'll follow Melanie. I went to your Twitter because I'm barely ever on Twitter, and your last tweet was something about how being on the phone crying to your mom about not being able to get Taylor Swift tickets is the definition of first world problems and I was laughing. It was so funny. 

Melanie Avalon: It really is. It really is.

Vanessa Spina: I remember when you were doing that like trying to get tickets. So, that's so exciting. It's this week. Wow. 

Melanie Avalon: I literally think about it too much, too much. So, that's going to be an experience on Friday. I don't know. I might have a heart attack. Like we'll see. I might faint. But all is well. All is too well. I will tell you, so yeah. So, I'll give links for listeners. For my current supplements, you can go to avalonx.us. You can use the coupon code MELANIE AVALON for 10% off sitewide. You can get email list updates on that at avalonx.us/emaillist. So, that's where you'll hear about the spirulina and chlorella and subscriptions and all the things. Vanessa, have you started an email list for your supplements? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. You can sign up for notifications about the protein at tonepotein.com. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Is that going to be the name you think? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm sticking with the Tone. I mean, it was perfect for the Tone device because it was like toning and ketones. But it's all about toning getting toned. 

Melanie Avalon: That is perfect. I'm so excited for you. Okay. This is great. 

Hi, Friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this. How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them. But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again, is a snapshot of that one moment in time.

What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now and I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. So, we are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. 

Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun. Then you can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more, and you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. 

One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. 

Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting, and so much more. Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. So, we definitely encourage you to choose a 6 or 12-month subscription, which are cheaper per month, and allow you to not only achieve your goals, but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. 

You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That is, nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends you want to be in the world of CGMs. It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. So, definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

All right, shall we jump into questions for today? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, our first question today comes to us from Sue Kimpton. Subject is smooth skin. “Why is my skin smoother when I follow a good fasting protocol? For example, clean fast of decent length for a number of days. I've done IF for almost three years and I enjoy it immensely. Thanks for all your hard work.” 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Sue. Well, thank you so much for your question. This is a great question and I did a deep dive into it. It's interesting because when I thought about the question before doing any research, I just felt intuitively, like it makes a lot of sense. The first things that came to my mind for this were reductions in inflammation from fasting, increases of stem cells, like the detox effect. It just seemed intuitively that it makes sense that fasting promotes good quality skin. But there actually is a bit of research. So, interestingly, there's actually a lot of research on calorie restriction and skin health. And I think a lot of the benefits that we receive from calorie restriction, we receive from fasting, there might be similar or there are similar pathways activated. So, I think a lot of that can extend to each other. 

So, for example, calorie restriction specifically can affect plasma proteins, hemoglobin, and skin collagen. All of those are involved in our skin health. There was one study that looked at the impact of calorie restriction on side effects with topical retinoid treatment, and they found that there was a reduction in irritation from that retinoid treatment from calorie restriction. And they hypothesized that this might be due to a boost in local antioxidant levels, which is something we also see with fasting, and also specifically on the inhibitory effect of a transcription factor. It's called the matrix metalloproteinase, MMP genes. And those are involved in tissue destruction. So, basically stopping signaling that would otherwise be destroying our skin. So, again, this is calorie restriction that had that effect. But I do think we can probably extend some of that to fasting as well.

And then studies have also found in general that calorie restriction can improve the appearance of wrinkles and decrease oxidative stress. Again, we know that intermittent fasting definitely has a profound effect when it comes to reducing oxidative stress. I found a super cool study. This was published in very recently, March of 2023, and it's called The Effects of a Fasting Mimicking Diet on Skin Hydration, Skin Texture and Skin Assessment, a randomized control trial. It was published in the Journal of Clinical Medicine. This was looking at the fasting-mimicking diet protocol, which we talked about a lot on this show that was created by Valter Longo, who we've also had on this show, as well as on my Biohacking Podcast. Have you interviewed him, I think I asked you that before. Have you interviewed him? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, we did talk about it because I was saying he's really hard to lock down. So, his protocol is a severely calorie restricted fasting mimicking-type approach for five days. They actually looked at that on the effects on skin health. Again, the reason I think this is applicable to intermittent fasting in general is they find that with the fasting-mimicking diet, it basically activates a lot of the circumstances and situations and benefits of fasting, but you're still just eating like a tiny, tiny bit. 

So, in that study, they found that the fasting mimicking diet increased skin hydration in the participants. The participants were a group of 45 healthy women between the ages of 35 and 60. It also helped maintain their skin texture in the fasted group. But for the group that was not doing the fasting-mimicking diet, they actually saw an increase in skin roughness. And so, then they went and talked about the reasoning behind this, and they said that probably due to how it affects the skin barrier, the things I mentioned before with oxidative stress, also the role of stem cells and then super interestingly-- So, this was discussed in that fasting-mimicking diet study. 

They were saying that another way that the fasting-mimicking diet might help skin health is actually through the gut-skin connection. So, basically, the effects of fasting can have a beneficial anti-inflammatory effect on the gut microbiome and support members of the gut microbiome that might be related to skin health. So specifically, those are lactobacillus and Bifidobacteria. They referenced another study, for example, and that was children with eczema. Those children were found to have less gut colonization of Bifidobacteria and lactobacillus compared to controls.

And then in another study, this was animal study, but they found that different strains of Bifidobacteria could actually help with supporting skin hydration and actually protected against UV damage, which is pretty cool. So, basically, they are hypothesizing that maybe the fasting has a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome and that might actually be supporting skin health as well. So that was very long. But all that to say, there's a lot of mechanisms whereby fasting can help promote skin health. Vanessa, do you have thoughts? 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, that was such an incredibly thorough answer. I love that you elucidated all of the main mechanisms and some of the studies there. I mean, I know that you're absolutely correct when it comes to stem cell production, stimulation of that cellular renewal that can happen through that, and definitely the autophagy makes a huge difference. I think the main point that you brought up about lowering the inflammation because you're spending more time in the fasted state. But I definitely always notice it for myself. 

When I just did my recent five day seasonal fast, I had a massive improvement in my skin it just feels so soft, like a baby's bum. I've been combining it with red light as well. The red light therapy, I think, makes a big difference because it's stimulating all those epigenetic growth factors in the collagen and elastin. So, combining it with that's made a big difference. It's amazing how tangible the difference is. I think that's awesome that Sue is noticing that, because this definitely motivates you when you have those kinds of tangible results. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. My brother is engaged and he's getting married. His fiancée reached out to me, and she wanted to know about-- she said she wanted to work on her skin for the wedding, and she wanted to know my thoughts on doing one of those, like, juice cleanses. I think she wanted to do some lemon water juice cleanse. 

Vanessa Spina: The Master Cleanse. 

Melanie Avalon: It wasn't the Master Cleanse. Have you done the Master Cleanse? 

Vanessa Spina: I did years ago when I was very misinformed. 

Melanie Avalon: That's the one with the pepper, right? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, it's lemon juice, maple syrup, and cayenne. In Canada, anyways, we use maple syrup. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, in Canada you use--

Vanessa Spina: Maple syrup. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, Canadians are known for their maple syrup. 

Vanessa Spina: But you're basically just drinking spicy sugar water.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds miserable. I don't think I ever did it. I remember my friends in college were doing it, and they said, [chuckles] I will never forget this. They were like, they say when you do that you shouldn't, I apologize if this is crude, “Don't trust a fart when you're on it.” 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I bet. Don't trust your farts for sure. People misinterpret that as, like, detoxification, but it's not. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. What's the craziest diet thing you did? 

Vanessa Spina: Probably that, but I remember just being out of college, so many cleanses and detoxes. They were so popular. I think now, like, teas. Detox teas have been pretty big in the last few years, which I never tried any of that. But probably the Master Cleanse was the craziest thing. What about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Two things, the cookie diet. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah, that's right. You did the cookie diet. 

Melanie Avalon: I was all about those cookies and then I went back and yeah, I looked at the ingredients, and it's literally gluten. I think the first ingredient is gluten. It's like fiber and gluten. It was so miserable. I will get these shipments, like, shipped, and I was living with roommates at the time, and they were like, “What is Melanie doing?” That one and when I ate, I did the apple, what's his name-- like the apple diet, Edgar Cayce or something, basically, where you're supposed to eat just apples for three days and then you take some olive oil and it's supposed to flush out. 

Vanessa Spina: I've never heard of that one. That's hilarious. 

Melanie Avalon: What's funny, though, is I did it for-- so you're supposed to do it for three days, oh gosh. You're supposed to do it for three days and I did this in college, and I felt so amazing. I felt high. This was before I had done intermittent fasting. I wasn't overweight, but I had weight to lose. Now I'm such a low body weight, I would not feel comfortable doing something like this. I want to clarify about that because I was reading not that I get wrapped up and we don't have a lot of trolls, but comments from people. But I did see a comment somewhere the other day about how I guess I talk about these crazy things I've done, so people shouldn't listen to me. 

Friends, listeners, I'm just being completely transparent. Before I became super aware of the importance of food and how it affects our bodies and fasting and paleo and keto and all of that. I mean, I was just trying all the things because you so desperately want to find something to lose weight. So, I hope it's not a reflection on me now. I think people get confused about that. 

Vanessa Spina: That's what I always say. I'm like, I have tried it all. Name me one thing. Okay, maybe I haven't done the apple one, but I've done it all. I've tried it all. And that's how you learn. It's part of how you learn. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. I've been super transparent about how I went through my period where I just ate, like, every night, a massive rotisserie chicken. People are like, “You shouldn't listen to her because she went through a phase where she just ate rotisserie chickens.” 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my God. When I heard you talking about that, I was like, that is the best. You're in college, you're on a budget, and you're taking advantage of a clearance sale at the end of the day. I had so much respect for you. 

Melanie Avalon: 11:00 PM, my night classes would get over at 10:00, and then I would go to the grocery store and get my rotisserie chicken. It was amazing. 

Vanessa Spina: I love rotisserie chickens. They're so good and they're never as good when you make it at home. They can be good, but the ones that you buy from, like, yeah, they're delicious. 

Melanie Avalon: Really quickly so that was my whole disclaimer about the story I'm about to tell. Please don't, well, you can judge if you like. But I went three days only eating apples. I felt amazing. I was like, I'm just going to keep doing this indefinitely until I don't want to do it anymore. So, I did it. I wasn't drinking or anything, so I did it 10 or 11 days. I was in a film professional fraternity, Delta Kappa Alpha, shout out. We had a film school prom. And so, I went and I drank what I normally would have drunk going out, but this was in the context of only having eaten apples for 11 days. I died. I just died. [laughs] It was the worst night of my life. I remember the next morning I think my roommates thought I was dead. They were like, calling my mom. I was on the floor and my mom was on the phone. She's like, “Melanie, eat some bread.” I was like, "I can't eat bread. I'm not eating carbs now, I don't eat bread." With a very few exceptions, I have not had hard alcohol since then. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, yeah, that combination sounds deadly literally. 

Melanie Avalon: Have you ever had a bad night? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I feel I used to have such high tolerance, especially when I was in university and I could go out and drink, and I could out drink like my guy friends. Now I'm such a light weight. Also, you just don't want to be hungover anymore. The older you get, it's like a day of my life lost, feeling miserable. When you're optimized and you're a biohacker and you feel amazing most of the time you have an off day. You're just like, “What is this?” Yeah, it's not a good combination. Actually, I've been thinking a lot about the but and thing, how if you're saying but, you're negating. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so good. 

Vanessa Spina: So good. I was thinking about and about how it is fun. I do like to do a couple of big nights a year, like New Year's Eve or someone's wedding or something. It's fun to let loose. But when you have a kid and you're hungover, you never want to be hungover. [laughs] So, it's the next level. 

Melanie Avalon: I can imagine. I was actually reflecting on this last night with gratitude. I do drink wine every night, and I drink Dry Farm Wines only, really at home. When I go out, I look up all the wineries of the wine list and I try to find the ones that are organic, and then I also try to find the ones that are probably lower alcohol content as well. But I was reflecting last night on how grateful I was. It's so nice to like you said, I can have my drink and drink it too. I have my glass of wine every night to wind down, and I feel really wonderful the next day. I do all the health things and I just love it. It's just a great experience and that's me. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Get the polyphenols, get all those health boosting, the resveratrol all of it. 

Melanie Avalon: All the things. So, for listeners, if you would like to get Dry Farm Wines, dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and all of their wines are low alcohol, low sugar, and organic and tested to be free of toxins and mold, and you really notice the difference, drinking those. All of that to say, skin. That's what we're talking about. I don't even remember how we got on this. Oh, my brother getting married. His fiancée reached out to me and wanted to know if she should do one of these lemon juice things for her skin. And I was just reflecting on how, honestly, the first thing I think about with skin now probably is fasting. It's not really about what you put in. It's about giving your body that break and that detox period. I think people's skin really can glow with fasting. If I had to pick three things for skin health, like three lifestyle practices or things, I would say fasting. Well, fasting, and the foods that you're eating as well. And then red light therapy, which, by the way, how can listeners get your red light therapy devices? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, the Tone Lux. You can check them out at ketogenicgirl.com. I have three different models there and they have all the wavelengths of light that I found were the most associated with the evidence-based benefits, including boosting collagen in the skin and elastin and really giving the skin a softer, more youthful appearance. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, awesome. Nice. So, listeners get that. The third thing I would say would be people's skincare and makeup. It's just so ironic because we turn to these products to support our skin health, and so many of them, especially in the US are they're toxic to our skin. They're marketed as making our skin better, but really we're putting in problematic ingredients that are contributing to our toxic burden and in the long term, probably not doing any favors for our skin's appearance. And then same with makeup. I'm all about makeup. I love makeup. It's ironic that we could be putting on makeup to improve the appearance of our skin, but really doing some damage by again exposing ourselves to these endocrine disruptors, these obesogens, these toxins. So, that's why I am obsessed with Beautycounter, because they make nontoxic skincare and makeup. So, yeah, I would say the diet, the red light, and the skincare products. 

Vanessa Spina: One last one. So, exfoliation is my secret weapon with the red light, is for me those three pillars. I also love the nutrition one, but the fasting, red light, and exfoliation and using a facial scrub has been life changing. I also do the whole-body scrubs and I have various loofas and things for that. But exfoliation really is the key to maintaining youthful skin because you can remove that top layer of skin. I'm not a skin expert or an esthetician, but it works wonders for my skin if I do it once or twice a week, a high-quality facial scrub. You can also get chemical ones and different kinds of chemical, at-home peels that you can do or just go for regular facials. I don't have time, so I just exfoliate. I've spoken to estheticians in the past who've told me the key is just to exfoliate. Antiaging really is exfoliation. So, I notice a massive difference. Do you do much exfoliation? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm really excited because I know you just received, I sent Vanessa this massive shipment of Beautycounter products, which, by the way, they do not make it easy to ship to Czech Republic. I told you it didn't even come up in the USPS system. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my goodness. That's wild because I ship myself with USPS, like, the Tone device all the time and different things. I wonder what was going on there. 

Melanie Avalon: So, they were, like, going through the computer. They're like, “Oh, it's not in the computer.” I was like, “The country is not in the computer?” Not like they listed it and were not available. They just took it out. [laughs] So, I literally went to UPS, FedEx, post office and then finally DHL. So, we got the box to Vanessa. 

Vanessa Spina: You know who ended up shipping it?

Melanie Avalon: DHL.

Vanessa Spina: USPS. 

Melanie Avalon: What? 

Vanessa Spina: Or maybe that was just a label that was still on it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, that was the label. Yeah, that was because basically when I went to the post office, I boxed it all up with their stuff, and I was like, I'm not going to rebox this. That's funny. So, to answer your question, one of the products in there is the Reflect Effect mask. 

Vanessa Spina: I saw that. I can't wait to try it. 

Melanie Avalon: So, okay, I'm obsessed. This answers your exfoliation question. You put it on your skin and it's like tightening and brightening and all the things, but it has little beads in it. There's a little tool that comes with it as well, which is optional, so listeners don't have to get the tool if they don't want. But when you remove the mask because you're scrubbing your face to wash it off, it exfoliates while removing the mask if that makes sense. Definitely try. It makes my skin glow. If you use a little tool that you can buy as an add on, you can remove it with that, and that will further exfoliate. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited to try that and also, I think there was also a chemical peel in there. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Okay, let me tell you about it. It's the Overnight Resurfacing Peel. So, it's misleading in the name. It's not actually a peel. They call it that because it rivals the effects of getting a chemical face peel. But it's really a leave-on treatment. Every night I wash my face and then I put that on immediately. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm going to try it tonight. 

Melanie Avalon: It's so great. 

Vanessa Spina: I tried the foundation today I was telling you earlier. I tried the foundation for the first time and I had the little sample and it was amazing. I usually use Mac foundation, and I've always felt okay with it because we are in Europe, so I know that they control what's in it a little bit more. But this one, I felt like I could still see my skin, but I was getting coverage and more so just like an overall even, but not so even that it's unnatural. It was a more natural lighter weight. But I like to have a consistent shade across my face and then contour. So, it was just really nice. I felt like I could see more of my skin. So, I'm excited to order that one actually. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited. Yes, I think you texted it to me, but I'll order it for you to get it over there. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to try all of it. It's a treasure chest. Thank you so much for sending it to me. 

Melanie Avalon: You're welcome. The awesome thing about the makeup, because I used to honestly, for me, the last thing I “cleaned up” in my diet was my makeup and skincare because it was just so overwhelming. It's really hard to switch out your makeup because it's your makeup. So, I was just so thrilled when I found Beautycounter because knowing that is their mission about the endocrine disruptors, it makes me feel really good about everything. And then on top of that, I went through a phase where I was like, “Oh, everything needs to be completely natural.” It needs to be “natural.” But really the toxicity potential isn't about if it's natural or not. It's about if it's toxic or not. So, they still use a combination of, “natural” and synthetic ingredients, but the testing is surrounding toxicity. So, you can feel really good about what you put on and it means that the products really work. 

Like, for example, I've mentioned this before, but the makeup when Tina Fey hosted the Golden Globes, she wore all Beautycounter makeup. So, it's really good makeup. It's ready for the high-definition cameras. Yeah, so, you have to let me know what you think. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'm going to try all of it. You're converting me over I think. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: So good. It's so good. 

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, some of which are clean, fast, friendly for free. Yes, for free. Plus, I have a very exciting announcement. An incredibly popular LMNT flavor is back. The more I research and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency. 

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But here's the thing. So many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that and it contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. 

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And of course, we have an incredible offer to go with that. Members of our community will get a free LMNT sample pack with eight flavors with any order when they order at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast that's drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom I-F-P-O-D-C-A-S-T. So, grab your LMNT order, grab that grapefruit flavor and get your free sample pack. Now is the time. And of course, you can try this completely risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and LMNT will give you your money back, no questions asked, you have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast for your free gift and grab that grapefruit salt flavor now. We'll put all this information in the show notes. 

Here's one last question from Tara and it's from the Facebook group, and it actually relates to what we just talked about, so we can quickly answer it. Tara wants to know what are your thoughts on retinols. “Do either of you use it in your skincare routine?” 

Vanessa Spina: So, I know retinols are amazing for acne prone skin, which I have been really lucky to not have to deal with much acne. My skin is pretty normal, so I don't use a lot of it. But I think for people who do have acne prone skin, it can be a game changer. The one thing that I do know about retinoids is you have to avoid them when you're pregnant because of the potential levels of the retinoids in them. So, what about you? Do you use them? 

Melanie Avalon: I do not. It's interesting because there's a lot of controversy surrounding them. People say that they might be damaging, might have toxic effects, and then that there aren't really super long-term studies on them. But I also had on Rachel Varga on my show and she was actually very pro retinols. She didn't think there was issues with them. I just-- So, I don't use them personally. I know they also increase sensitivity to the sun, I believe, so I don't personally use them. I've just stayed on the side of erring on not the counter timeline from Beautycounter. They formulated it to have the effects of retinols without having any actual retinols. 

Vanessa Spina: That's really interesting that they avoided putting retinols in it. I think that says a lot. 

Melanie Avalon: They gave a name for their complex that they created, that they have studies showing comparing it to retinols and showing similar effects. Since I can just easily not do it, I just go that route. So, yes, I would check out the counter timeline from Beautycounter if you're interested in an alternative. If you want to learn more about a supportive side of retinols, check out my episode with Rachel Varga and I will put a link to that in the show notes. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I really like all the exfoliation techniques that we're just talking about, and I like to use glycolic peels and masks that have glycolic agents in them. I know some of them can be a little bit stronger, like salicylic acid, but there's a lot that you can do, I think, without having to use retinoids. I think they're mostly for people who have acne. 

Melanie Avalon: I always thought they were for skin, for antiaging. Maybe it's both. 

Vanessa Spina: The retinoic acid, I think that's what's in Accutane. I think it's related. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you do Accutane? 

Vanessa Spina: I did do it because [chuckles] I had a boyfriend when I was in college and I had this weird episode where I did randomly break out, and he was like, “Oh, just take Accutane like I took it.” I think I did it for a week or something. My entire life never have any breakouts. I couldn't tell you the last time I had any kind of breakout or pimple or anything, so I've been really lucky with that because I know it's really difficult to deal with, and especially with using different creams, and then your skin becoming more sensitive and having to balance out an irritated eye. I just like I really feel for people who are dealing with acne. 

Melanie Avalon: I had it growing up. It was the worst. I was always doing what was that brand, that Proactiv. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I remember those ads. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It was the bane of my existence. So, I empathize as well. Beautycounter has counter control, which I don't have acne anymore. I did Accutane as well. That was a game changer for me. I do wonder now about the effects. There's a lot of controversy. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Like, you have to get blood work done and everything. It's really intense. 

Melanie Avalon: It was a whole thing for me. They made me go on birth control first before going on it. So, I went on birth control in 10th grade to get on Accutane, which, looking back, I'm like, that's just really annoying to me, you know the system. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a good thing that you didn't pick your lifelong partner when you were on birth-- 

Melanie Avalon: I know. My high school sweetheart. Oh, that's so true. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, your immunities would have been just not complimentary. 

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. Wow. Good point. Yes, so, friends, skin, fasting, red light, Beautycounter, exfoliation. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode319. 

Something I didn't mention yet on this show. Speaking of Beautycounter, if you would like to be entered to win over $500 worth of products, just go to Apple Podcasts and pull up your review of this show or write a new review. To update it or write a new one and include in the review what you are excited to experience with Vanessa as the new co-host or what you're enjoying about the change in the show with Vanessa here on board, which we are having so much fun. So, send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter. 

And then lastly, you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa's handle is @ketogenicgirl. Okay, I think that's all the things. Anything for me, Vanessa, before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun. I love all the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record the next episode with you. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise. Have a good evening. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 21

Episode 318: A New Fasting Study, Protein Pacing, Protein Sparing Modified Fast, Fasted Exercise, Muscle Loss, Signs Of Ketosis, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #194 - Dave Asprey

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Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss

Listener Q&A: Niki - Fasted Exercise

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ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

Listener Q&A: Amy - Can you use the joovv for 10 mintues all over your body, or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

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And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things, like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is BeautyCounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive.

I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all BeautyCounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 318 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with my still new co-host, Vanessa Spina. Vanessa, how are you today?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing wonderfully. How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: I'm so good. I've been looking forward to this. For listeners, we had to cancel one of our last sessions or reschedule it, so I've been so excited to talk to you, today.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. It's been way too long. I feel like it was forever ago that we got to record our last episode and it's been giving me extra happy just knowing that we were going to be recording today. So, I'm so happy to be here.

Melanie Avalon: I know we have so much to talk about. I have a super random question to ask you to start off, I thought about this like forever ago. I think I told you in a text, I was just going to save it for the episode. It's so random. It's very random. Are you familiar with the seven deadly sins?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And like the seven virtues?

Vanessa Spina: I mean, Pete and I talk about them a lot together, and he has taught me a lot about them. He's taught me the meaning behind some of them that I didn't understand. He was like a Catholic school kid, and we both love the teachings of Jesus, and we try to follow by His example as much as possible, but we talk about what they mean and what the deeper definitions that they are sometimes just like when we're walking, going for walks and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Okay, so that was a much deeper dive. [laughs] Okay, the question I have for you, and I can answer it as well for me, the seven of them are lust. I'm looking at them right now. Lust, gluttony, pride, sloth, wrath, greed, and envy. I am wondering, which one do you struggle with the most and which one do you struggle with the least?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's such a good question, such a good question. I need to look at the list again.

Melanie Avalon: You can pull it up if you want.

Vanessa Spina: I mean, I feel like I have a little bit of all of them, [laughs] and I'm trying to work on them all the time, and become better and just be conscious of when I am engaging in those things, if that makes sense?

Melanie Avalon: For me, it's very intuitive. Like, I immediately know which one I struggle with the most and I immediately know which one I struggle with the least.

Vanessa Spina: Okay, you start then.

Melanie Avalon: I struggle the most with envy, for sure. I don't like it either. And okay, what's crazy is I had been wanting to ask you this question on this show, and then last night I was listening to Joe Rogan and David Buss. Have you heard of him?

Vanessa Spina: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: His research is in evolutionary psychology. His books are all about evolutionary psychology of sexuality and sex. So, basically dating dynamics, marriage dynamics, the evolutionary purpose behind male-female relationships. But he was talking about the evolutionary purpose of envy. It's a good thing. It's because men don't know necessarily, they need to protect the female they are with because they don't ever know that they're necessarily the father, because only a female will know that the child is her own because it came from her body, but a male doesn't know, so he has to aggressively be protective of the female that he is trying to bear children with. So, that's like the purpose of envy. That was like a whole tangent. So, I struggle the most with envy and I don't like the experience of it either like I just hate feeling jealous. I just don't like it. So, I actively try to work on that. I struggle the least with sloth.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like when I was younger, envy was probably the main one until I realized that the feeling of envy means that you see something in someone else that you don't believe that you can have or experience. And when I realized that I could shift that to, if I feel joy when I see something in someone else that I would also like to have or experience, then that means I believe I can experience it as well. And that's when the joy grows and expands because you are like-- now when you see that quality in others, you're like, "Oh, that means I'm getting closer to it or I'm seeing more manifestations of it." So, it's a big shift, I think.

Yeah, but I think pride is the other one that jumped out at me. It's probably the one that I struggle with the most because I know we've talked about this before, just like in our personal conversations. But I really don't like excessive ego in others and because it's such an issue for me, I have concerns, there's probably some in me too or else it wouldn't bother me so much in other people. If I interview a certain guest and I feel like they have a really big head, it really bothers me. I really like humility. And so, I'm constantly concerned with am I being humble and meek in this situation. Am I grounding myself just being very self-aware of that? And the other ones? I think sloth also is not an issue for me. I like to hustle, but I love what Dave Asprey said in your interview with him, that biohackers are innately lazy and that humans are innately lazy and it's a survival mechanism, but that if you work smarter or you work really hard. I've always believed if you work really hard, then life gets easy. But if you take the easy route all the time, then life is hard.

Melanie Avalon: So, what's interesting about his thesis? Because you haven't read this book yet, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and for listeners so, I recently aired, well, as of this recording, an episode with Dave for his new book Smarter Not Harder. So, I'll pull a link to that in the show notes. He actually thinks we should be lazy because I realized we did. I was like thinking back on that episode, we didn't really hardcore go into his laziness principle. He thinks you should not have to work hard. Like basically if we optimize short-term acute stress, then we get this maximum stimulus and maximum gain. But you don't have to do this chronic, drawn-out, draining work. So, like a marathon compared to HIIT training or now this new REHIT training like super short burst.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I know he was specifically talking about fitness in that. I know he was talking about other areas too. But the main example he was using in your interview was fitness. He spent like two years or three years working out at the gym so hard and not really making much progress. And then he started using bio-hacks and he turned everything around, and he's like, at 8% body fat now and effortlessly so. [laughs] I like how he praised the value of work ethic and hard work. But it's a really interesting discussion to evaluate what laziness-- what role did that serve and why is it there and how can we work smarter not harder?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I love it. You need to come to the Biohacking Conference.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it sounds amazing. I wish I could come. I really do. It sounds like something I'm going to have to come to in the future for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Can you imagine, if we could hang out?

Vanessa Spina: And we would have so much fun. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I will give a link for listeners, so as listeners know. Okay, so Vanessa and I are so similar in so many ways, and we're so opposite in other ways. Actually, we're not the opposite in very many ways, but one of the ways is Vanessa has epic travel skills, which I'm envious of and I do not. So, whenever I am actually traveling that means it's like a big deal and it's something I find very worth having my presence there. So, friends, a month from now, because this comes out May 22, a month from now, on June 22, you can go to the Biohacking Conference, the 9th annual Biohacking Conference in Orlando and I am going to go, which is crazy, and I'm so excited because, Vanessa, you've been to a lot of conferences and you've done a lot of talking, so you've met people in real life a lot, right, from our sphere.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I was a regular mainstage speaker at KetoCon for the first few years before COVID everything got shut down. But I did a book tour, which I got to speak all across the US. When my book came out. But I've done a considerable amount of speaking at these different low-carb and Keto events in Canada, the US, and Europe, and they are so much fun. They're just so incredibly fun to get to meet everybody, all the other people that you know in person, and to just get to hug people all day. It's really, really fun to get to meet and connect with everyone and hang out with everybody. So, I'm excited to get to go to them again. It's been harder having a child, but we're figuring it out, so, I will get back to them eventually. The biohacking one sounds incredible.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick, what was your favorite topic that you presented on?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, hands down was autophagy.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I did a deep dive. That was my talk at KetoCon one year and The Low Carb Universe, which was in Spain, it was a deep dive on all the mechanisms of autophagy and mitophagy. A lot of people they know what it means, but in depth to really fully understand the mechanisms and what's happening is just fascinating. So, that was definitely my favorite.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. So, yes, I hope sometime you can come to the Biohacking Conference. That will actually be my first time at a conference for all of this stuff. So, I mean, what a way to start, I'm not speaking.

Vanessa Spina: You're going to get swarmed by so many people who know you. And I'll be so excited to see you. You're going to have so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: So, like, friends in the audience or listeners, you guys should come. We should come hang out because there're going to be so many people there, especially a lot of guests I've had on my biohacking show. You can look at the page if you go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference that will direct you to their page. And you can see the speaker lineup. So, people I've had on my other show, like, obviously, Dave Asprey, Joe Mercola, Catharine Arnston with ENERGYbits like the people at BiOptimizers, Max Lugavere, like so many people. Friends, come with me, and you can use the coupon code MA40, so MA40 and that will get you 40% off tickets, which is very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: That's huge. Yeah. I'm really tempted to come. It sounds like it's going to be so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I would die someday.

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to hear how it all goes, though, because I'm going to be in the US. I think, around that time. We're going to be on a more similar time zone, and it's going to be easier to communicate.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. Well, if you randomly want to make a pitstop in Orlando and come hang out. Although I feel bad because I feel like most conference-- I don't know, I feel like I'm not a conference person. I'm not going to be going all day to all the things. I'm going to respect my boundaries.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, you have to and then take breaks and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: I've been wanting to go to the Metabolic Health Summit for a while and they're moving it to Florida this year, so that's really interesting. And then there's the ISSN, which is the Institute of Sports Nutrition, which is like the organizing body of the sports nutrition specialization that I have. They do an annual conference in Florida. I just want to go to all of those. I would love to even just live in Florida because it would be amazing. It just sounds like there's a lot of people who have minded sorts of approaches to fitness and health in that area. So, I'm surprised it's not in Austin.

Melanie Avalon: I was going to say Florida and Austin. I actually feel like I might move to Austin. Honestly, like, everybody's there, everybody. I actually am surprised it's not in Austin.

Vanessa Spina: I would live there if Pete would move there. It's such a fun town that was one of the biggest motivators for me to go there for KetoCon, and they have the most amazing barbecue brisket ever. It's such a fun town. There's just so much going on. It's such a cute town. It's a walkable city. It gets very hot in the summer as were talking about, but I think it's an awesome place.

Melanie Avalon: Well, we should manifest hanging out in Austin sometimes. So, many things to manifest. Okay, so well, speaking of shows, that was again on The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I'll put links in the show notes. Come see me June 22. Use the coupon code MA40 for 40% off tickets. Oh, wait. I was just about to go into you. But one last link for listeners. Dave also talked about his new Danger Coffee. You probably haven't tried it. Have you tried it, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: No. You're the first person who told me about it but sounds like it must be interesting.

Melanie Avalon: I just started drinking it and I really like it. So, he made it with-- it has, like, minerals in it. It's supposed to be a mineralizing coffee rather than taking minerals from you.

Vanessa Spina: That's so smart.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I've been drinking Bulletproof coffee before that. Anyway, that was the brand I drank, just because I really trust him with the mold stuff, and I'm very concerned about that. But the Bulletproof brand actually isn't his brand anymore. He made Danger Coffee, and I just got it, and I am really, really liking it. I've actually been getting a lot of questions for a discount code for it. So, I got one for you guys. If you go to melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee, you can use the coupon code MELANIEVALON to get 10% off. Okay, that was all the links about me.

What I wanted to say was, friends, Vanessa, who I know this is our third episode together, but she is also the host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. That show is absolutely incredible. You guys should all check it out. Vanessa is very impressive and how she really dives deep into everything. And she recently did an epic interview deconstruction of a new study that came out about intermittent fasting and the role of protein. And so, two things. One, check out Vanessa's interview or episode on it. And we'll put a link to it in the show notes because she does a really, really deep dive. But we also want to talk about it a little bit in today's show. I've been excited about this. It's been a while.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. It's such an interesting study, and I was so excited to see it finally officially published because I first posted about it almost two years ago when it was presented. I think it was just presented at an obesity conference and I think it may have been in a poster presentation. To now have the full paper, the whole research article, everything. I was so excited to see it. I mean, everything that you and I both talk about on our own podcast, you've talked about for years on the Intermittent Fasting podcast. It reinforces so many of the concepts we've talked about for years. It's just so exciting whenever you see a paper that is really investigating something that is important and doing it in a novel way and doing it in a way that gives us new conclusions, new information. I was so excited when I saw that it was officially published.

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The title of the study is Intermittent fasting and protein pacing are superior to caloric restriction for weight and visceral fat loss, published in Obesity. Like Vanessa said, it was a while ago, but just more recently-- So, when did they actually publish it?

Vanessa Spina: The date on here says that it was received in June and then it was revised and accepted in November of this year-- But then the first article that I found or last year. Yeah, was that it was officially published in the latest version was like January of 2023. So, yeah, it's pretty recent.

Melanie Avalon: I have a surprise for you about it. Trying to say which order to go with this. Do you want to tell listeners a little bit about the setup of the study and what they were testing?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I'd love to. I think what was-- when I posted about this, definitely the main questions that people had were specifically about the protocol of the diet. So, I was really interested in seeing exactly how they did it, exactly what the methodology was, because obviously, they had positive results or favorable results so I wouldn't be excited about the study. But I even dived as deep as going through the menus that they were eating on the different days in the two groups. So, they basically separated participants into two different groups and they were equated for calories. But one group did this intermittent fasting. They call it the IFP diet, which was doing intermittent fasting and consuming protein at regular intervals throughout the day. The intermittent fasting that they did was they then subdivided that group into two groups that they then put back together after four weeks.

But in that group, they either fasted once a week for 36 hours or twice a week for 60 hours. And they had exactly the-- calories were equated, which, actually the calories in the just calorically restricted group, which was the other group, were actually even lower than on the intermittent fasting protein pacing group. And they still got better results in terms of fat loss and mostly body composition. That's what really gets me excited about studies like this is they are improving body composition.

There's another study that I was just sharing about on the podcast in the most recent episode because they did a similar approach, but they didn't change their calories in either groups and all they did was increase the protein percentage. And they saw really positive changes in body composition, which means you get more lean mass and you lose body fat, and lower your body fat percentage without even changing the amount of calories that you're eating. Just switching up the macros.

So, I'm really passionate about this study in particular because it's combining intermittent fasting with also switching up macros a little bit to focus on a higher protein percentage. That to me, really excites me for the potential for improving body composition because we all know that you can get results doing intermittent fasting and not changing anything about your macros. But if your goal really is to improve body composition, if that happens to be your goal and why you're doing intermittent fasting, you're going to see, I think, much better results if you bump up the protein percentage a little bit. I know that's something that you're also really passionate about, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: And you talked about this in your episode when you talked about the study as well. But something that really resonated with me about it or something that I thought was really, really important was I feel like there are a lot of studies. So, we have a lot of studies looking at intermittent fasting versus calorie restriction showing extra benefits with intermittent fasting. We also have studies. There was that one sort of recently where I don't know, I think there was like a few, but there's been somewhere it gets really sensationalized in the media and they say that intermittent fasting is no different than calorie restriction. And I just think it goes to show the major importance of, like you said when we focus on protein and on the diet quality and combine it with fasting, just the massive potential additional benefits in comparison to calorie restriction.

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, because so often it's not using something like that. So, I think it's really, really important. Although it's funny because I was reading the study and I kept reading it and I was like, I can't figure out what they're doing on the fasting day. And I was like, am I just not smart?

Vanessa Spina: I have to get the author of the study on my podcast somehow because I read this several times and I still cannot figure it out. When they talk about the protocol, they say that they fasted either for 36 hours once a week or 60 hours twice a week for two days a week. And then after four weeks, all they were doing was just once a week for 36 hours. So, it sounds like 36 hours fast. But then when you look at the menus, [laughs] it's a bit confusing. But it does seem like on the fasting days, they were still consuming things. But then when you look further into it, it's mostly like electrolytes and-- some ashwagandha like adaptogens, electrolytes sort of non-caloric beverages. That's what it mostly seems like. And then there is, I think, a snack that's consumed. So, in a way it almost makes like a fasting-mimicking approach, but it's really hard to almost impossible to figure it out from just reading the paper.

And then I don't know if that's what they did on the two 60 days. It's one of the issues I think sometimes you see in research is like, they'll say it's intermittent fasting, but it's like their version of intermittent fasting. I wish there was a little bit more clarity, like did they turn the clock on that day and then not eat anything for 36 hours? Which would make sense to me based on the results that they saw here or 60 hours. But then it's almost not even intermittent fasting at that point. It's more like fasting.

Melanie Avalon: So, like I said, I read it and I was like, I can't figure this out, and I was like, "Am I just not?-- Like, what am I missing?" [laughs] And then I listened to your breakdown, I was like, "Okay, it's not just me." Well, are you ready for my surprise? I emailed the author of the study.

Vanessa Spina: Oh my gosh.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. Did they write back?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: Oh my gosh. Paul Arciero.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, shall I read you his email?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, please. Oh my gosh, this is the best surprise ever.

Melanie Avalon: It's like Christmas. Okay, so this is from Paul. [laughs] He says, "Hi, Melanie and Vanessa." Because I talked about you in the email. Thanks for your interest in my research study on intermittent fasting and protein pacing and discussing it on your podcast. So, cool. To answer your question, sorry, I'm laughing. To answer your question, participants consume 400 to 500 calories during the 36 to 60 hours fast. They followed a similar timing schedule of consumption as they did on the protein pacing days. "Okay, ready for the good part?" Please know if you both agree. I'd love to be invited on your podcast and share the results in detail, including the effects of the intermittent fasting protein pacing on the gut microbiome. Thanks, and congrats on all your success with this awesome podcast, Paul.

Vanessa Spina: Wow.

Melanie Avalon: We should have Paul on.

Vanessa Spina: That is so incredibly exciting and wonderful. I was just going to say, when you said you emailed him, like, we have to get him to come on and talk about this because that would be so thrilling.

Melanie Avalon: So, isn't that exciting?

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. Good job.

Melanie Avalon: I remember, I've really found, especially having this show, the biohacking show, I feel like there's a whole potential ocean of people, like researchers who are not-- they're doing studies, but they don't have books, they're not like in the popular media. I feel like a lot of researchers are so accessible, if you actually just email them, they want to talk to you.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I mean, if someone emailed you and was like, I want to talk to you about your work, like your life's work, it's like, great. [laughs] Let's talk about it in front of thousands of people. Like yes, of course. I would love to. So, yeah, I agree. I love that you reached out to him because I wanted to but that's amazing. We have to schedule him ASAP to talk about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, Vanessa and I have been talking about all the random people we want to have on the show. We're going to have Rick Johnson back on. It's going to be so fun. So, yeah, okay, so I'll email him and we should have him on.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. I can't wait.

Melanie Avalon: And that's interesting though and I guess we can talk about it maybe more when we have him on.

Vanessa Spina: What are your thoughts on that protocol that they did?

Melanie Avalon: To clarify for listeners, if it wasn't clear from his answer, they fasted on the fasting days, 36 to 60 hours and they were actually during that time having 400 to 500 calories. It's actually like a fasting-mimicking diet approach with the exception that the fasting-mimicking diet is very low protein and this was very high protein.

Vanessa Spina: Which also has a great purpose to cycle once in a while low protein and switch off mTOR and ramp up autophagy and everything. But how interesting to see a study doing the opposite of that.

Melanie Avalon: It's also like I'm thinking of protein-sparing modified fast where people have extremely low versions. What I would love to see? Now I'm like "I should be making a list of questions for when he comes on." I'm really curious why they did it that way. I would love to see if they had done it the way you were hypothesizing that they had done it, which I was also hypothesizing. I was thinking maybe they had the 400 calories as a meal and then fasted straight. Like I would love to see a third arm where they did that.

Vanessa Spina: They mentioned in the study about the metabolic switching and how you're ramping up fat-burning oxidation. You're getting ketogenesis, you're getting more ketones, you're becoming more insulin sensitive and you're cranking up autophagy, lowering inflammation, oxidative stress, and enhancing lean body mass. But that really gets ramped up when you are just fully not consuming all of those things. It was really interesting to see that. And in my podcast recap, I said this looks like a protein-sparing modified fast to me, it's like doing one day a week or two days a week of protein-sparing modified fast which is very effective for doing these kinds of things.

But they're not just doing that on the other days of the week. They are doing protein pacing which is like consuming I think at least four to six times a day consuming protein. They're maximizing all those opportunities for muscle-protein synthesis. And I think that's a huge reason why they had such great results in terms of lowering fat mass and increasing the lean mass and that it just was way more effective than in the calorically restricted group.

Melanie Avalon: In the fasting protein people, the non-CR people on their eating days, on the days when they weren't "fasting," which maybe we can circle back to that. Were those days calorie-restricted with protein or not?

Vanessa Spina: Both groups I know they were trying to equate calories between the two, but it's really interesting. I have the exact menus from the study that I was looking at because I was trying to figure out exactly what they were doing. But the men were eating 1800 calories a day in the intermittent fasting protein group and the women were eating 1450. They were all at a caloric deficit. But the calorically restricted group was doing 1500 calories for the men and 1200 calories for the women. Like much more caloric restriction, you would expect that they would have lost more weight, but they lost or if anything, that they would have been at least equal. But in the intermittent fasting protein group, they were eating a breakfast, a lunch, a mid-afternoon snack, a dinner, and an evening snack, and all of them were high-protein meals. And so, it's amazing to me that the calorically restricted group was like 300 calories lower for the men and 250 calories lower for the women. And yet the intermittent fasting protein group got better results.

That's initially what launched intermittent fasting was some of the studies that came out with, like, Mark Mattson and Krista Verity, who were showing that the intermittent fasting groups were getting better results eating more than the caloric-restricted group. So, all the fanfare around these studies showing that intermittent fasting and caloric restriction can be as effective for weight loss. They don't really say much, I think because we know that you can get even better results. I'm so excited to actually talk to the primary researcher and that's going to be an amazing episode.

Melanie Avalon: If you added up the entire week and accounted for these "fasting days," that's where they were trying to make the calories sort almost equal, right. Like, if you added up every day, but wasn't the CR group was still slightly less, I think?

Vanessa Spina: I think it was still slightly less, but I know that the goal was to have them be the same.

Melanie Avalon: Basically, it was comparing calorie restriction to calorie restriction, but a high-protein version. And then they were also comparing this fasting, but it was really more like a fasting-mimicking diet or like a protein-sparing modified fast.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. In the calorically restricted group, they were doing like, the heart-healthy approach to diet. And I think the protein was between 5% up to 15% and the protein pacing group was closer to 25%.

Melanie Avalon: Got you. Okay. Yes. I can't wait to have him on. So, how do you feel about-- Do you call that fasting if they're eating the 400?

Vanessa Spina: Not really.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: I was actually a bit let down when I saw that there were menus, because I was like, why is there a menu for a fasting day? Intermittent fasting was really defined for me by Mark Mattson. He talks about it all the time is like it's a pattern of eating, it's not a diet. It's a way that you structure your eating window and your non-eating window throughout the day. And that non-eating window is non-eating. So, I was surprised. But we don't know some people may have consumed it all in one go, like when they were given their menu, they may have had it all and then fasted the rest of the time. I would have preferred it.

I think it would have been like you were saying, to have a third arm where that fasting time was actually just complete digestive rest, complete fasted state because every time you consume food, you go back into the fed state for 4 to 5 hours, depending on the size of the meal of course, but if you're constantly eating during that fasted window, then it's not really fasted. And then we know there're exceptions, right, with certain beverages that are not sweetened or that kind of thing. But yeah, I was a bit disappointed.

Melanie Avalon: I was too. I was like, womp, womp.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Exactly.

Melanie Avalon: I guess I wish as well-- It's a great study. I wish the title because the title Is calling it intermittent fasting and I think that's where we run into just in general, all of this confusion with understanding what's happening and what we can draw from it. It's one phrase, intermittent fasting, that we use to describe so many different things. So, this example here of what they're describing it for is not even remotely similar to somebody doing one-meal-a-day approach where they're not eating all day and then eating like 2000 calories, completely different thing or like a 16:8 window.

So, yes, but regardless and regardless, there's definitely a lot to learn from it though. I think, like you said, just to bring it home, I think it really shows the importance of diet quality and the role of protein, especially the takeaway-- I would take away from it wouldn't even be so much about intermittent fasting, it would be when you're using calorie restriction to lose weight, go high protein. That's my takeaway.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. If you want to improve your body composition and be losing fat mass and gaining lean mass, you really want to optimize your macros.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes. So, okay, we'll put links to that in the show notes. Hopefully, we'll be back soon with Paul. I'm excited to hear his microbiome stuff. Do you know what he's talking about? Have you read that other--

Vanessa Spina: I don't. And when you said that, I got even more excited to have him on to talk about it because I'm sure our listeners also would love to hear more about that too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm going to email him ASAP. All right, shall we get into some questions for today?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have a question from Nikki and this was specifically submitted for Vanessa. Oh, so, announcement, before that. We're still running our incentive. If you would like to help welcome Vanessa to the podcast, you can go to Apple Podcasts and if you already wrote a review, you can update it for this show. Or if you have never written a review, you can write a review. So, it's super easy to do. And just write a review and include somewhere in the review what you're excited to experience with Vanessa as the new co-host or what you're already loving about it with her. Send us a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com and we will enter you into a giveaway to win over $500 worth of products from BeautyCounter. I am not making that up. And you guys know that I love BeautyCounter's safe skincare and makeup free of toxins and endocrine disruptors, which can actually have a very obesogenic effect on the body. That's a whole tangent.

Actually. I recently had on Ben Azadi on my show, and we talked all about-- though think the number one cause of resistant weight loss isn't diet, isn't exercise. He thinks it's actually the build-up of these toxins in our bodies because they can cause weight loss resistance. They can literally act as obesogens where they cause cells to be in a more fat-storage mode and recruit inflammatory cytokines. And when people actually lose weight, it can have this negative detox effect where people release these endocrine disruptors. All that to say, I'm on a tangent, but our skincare makeup is actually one of our largest sources of those compounds every day. So, that's why I love BeautyCounter because they were founded on a mission to make products which are free of endocrine disruptors. Like, that is their mission. So, you can win over $500 worth of products if you go to Apple Podcasts, update your review or write a new review, say something about Vanessa, send us a screenshot, and we will enter you. Okay, all of that to say we have a question from Nikki and the subject is fasted exercise.

And Nikki says "Hi. Melanie and Vanessa. Welcome to the podcast Vanessa. Melanie asked us to send in questions for you." I did. She says, "So I'm so excited to get your thoughts on fasted exercise. You've talked about its benefits quite a bit in the Optimal Protein Podcast, but I'd like to break down the different types of exercise more because your answer may change my fasting days. My current protocol is 2 to 3 24-hour fasts per week with high-protein distinct meals on the other days, no snacking or grazing based off of the fasting method protocol. For my workouts, I strength train Monday, Wednesday, and Friday with a personal trainer and lift pretty heavy two of those days. If there's time, I might do a very short, less than 10 minutes HIIT session afterwards." Side note "Do you call it HIIT or do you call it HIIT?"

Vanessa Spina: A HIIT.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I never like, no. It's been like a decade of talking about it, and I never know what to say. "On Tuesdays and Thursdays, I do a combination of walking, easy runs, and hot yoga. My goal is body recomposition. While I'm really happy with my muscle growth, I want to lose some remaining body fat based solely off of the types of workouts I'm doing and assuming I want my longer fasting days to be on weekdays only for family reasons, which days make for the best fasting days?" PS, "I forgot to mention I normally break a 24-hour fast at dinner with a high-protein meal. Also, I normally strength train in the afternoons. So, I'd definitely be deep in the fasted state if I did that on my longer fasting days. Best, Nikki." This actually flows in really well with the study were talking about the importance of protein. So, what are your thoughts on this Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: This is such a great question, Nikki, thank you so much for listening to both of our podcasts. It's so nice to hear from you. I am really happy that you have been learning about the importance of fasted workouts and the main sort of benefit of fasted workouts that I talk about a lot on the podcast is the mitochondrial biogenesis because there is research showing that if you are doing fasted workouts, you will get more mitochondrial biogenesis or the genesis of new mitochondria which will help you to have better functioning mitochondria, a greater number of them and it really helps optimize overall wellness. I would say it depends on which of the two goals you're optimizing for, and I think the one that you're optimizing more for right now because we're always switching up our goals is to lose some body fat, and little bit of conditioning there, lose some fat mass.

And so, if that is the main goal, then I would say what stands out to me is that-- you could definitely switch it up either way because you mentioned at the very end that you do break your 24-hour fast with a high-protein meal. But if you want to optimize for building the muscle and losing the fat, I think the way to do it would be to do your workout days on your eating days because you'll maximize the muscle-protein synthesis if you're having more than just fasting in one protein meal. It depends on how experienced you are when it comes to resistance training, because if you're more so in your first like five years of training, your window for building muscle is like 24 to 48 hours, that anabolic window after you work out. So, you can have protein anywhere in that 24 to 48 hours as long as it's enough to raise the leucine level in your blood, enough to trigger muscle-protein synthesis, which is usually like 2 to 3 grams.

I would say that you probably could do either because you are doing a high-protein meal. Personally, if it were me, I would strength train on, like you said, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and make those eating days and then do those fasts on the other days when you are doing more so walking, easy runs, and some yoga. And I think that's what I would do because you're going to optimize body composition better, you're going to build more lean mass and that's going to also help lower body fat percentage.

I think that some people get more power and output when they do fasted workouts. So, that may be something to look at for yourself. Like, how do you feel when you're working out fasted versus not? But you can still get the benefits of mitochondrial biogenesis if you do your workout, say in the morning or a time when you haven't had a ton of food, you could still get that. Also, if you're doing a higher protein approach that's lower carb or you're eating more so like a protein and fat meal for breakfast, there's research showing that you can get about two-thirds as much mitochondrial biogenesis than if you were just doing that workout fasted. That would be my take on it. What about you?

Melanie Avalon: I felt the same way. Might as well, especially-- Well, this is going to be backtracking because we get so many questions about people worried about muscle loss with exercise, especially with muscle-building exercise, and strength training, and fasting. We've done a lot of discussions for years on this show about how you can maintain muscle with intermittent fasting. It can actually be supportive if you do it correctly. I don't want to undo all of that by saying, yes, have it on the muscle days to support muscle growth. I do think that you'll probably get the maximum bang for your buck with all of that because like Vanessa said, you're really creating all the signals for muscle growth on those days that you're doing the strength training and really supporting that with the protein.

We know that something like walking and easy runs, yoga, those are perfect, steady, low, consistent cardio-type states to be fueled by fat burning. So, those I think pair really, really well with fasting and are a great way to gently lose that fat that she's trying to target without sending overly stressed signals to the body.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I concur.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome.

Vanessa Spina: You'll have to let us know what you end up doing and report back Nikki?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I also like what you said about how we're all individuals and people really do have to find what works for them. I'm curious what type of exercise-- are you like an exerciser person, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm really passionate about resistance training, and if I can't do any other exercise in the week, I at least get that done. So, I prioritize it above other forms of exercise, like HIIT for example. I try to get three to four sessions a week and it's usually about a 40-minute workout. I do it at home and I have free weights at home and I really enjoy it. I think it's so important for improving body composition and putting all that protein to work, building more muscle. I'm really interested in trying out some of the newer technologies for building muscle. I know we've talked a little bit about what you do with the EmSculpt, but I also heard Dave talking about some other technologies on your podcast, so I want to try all of these out.

Melanie Avalon: Did I tell you they're sending me the CAROL Bike?

Vanessa Spina: I heard you say it on the interview. So, that sounds really interesting.

Melanie Avalon: It's supposed to come Thursday, so it's supposed to come two days from now. So, apparently, friends, we'll see when it gets here. Apparently, it's an exercise bike, so backtracking again. I mentioned HIIT, which is high-intensity interval training which for people who are not familiar, it's something that Dave talks all about in his book. But it's basically going all out max effort for a very short amount of time. So, you're basically pushing your body to the edge like the hardest that you can go. And it's sending all of these signals and then you stop and you rest, and then you do it again. You rinse and repeat. And there are different protocols for it. The benefit of it is that it's a very short workout overall. Probably most HIIT sessions what range from 10 to 20 minutes depending on the format that you're doing it in. But you actually get the benefit of both fat-burning and carb-burning compared to just one or the other.

And then the afterburn effect is very extended. So, studies have shown that you continue to burn fat for quite a while after that workout. So, apparently, the new version is REHIT which I'm still a little bit unclear on. I have to reread his book. Now, there's this advancement with technology where they can use AI to evaluate your heart rate and everything like that and adjust the machine, you're using to give you the maximum bang for your buck. So, apparently, this CAROL Bike that I am receiving, you wear a heart rate monitor. I don't know if it has other biometric data that it takes from you, but I think the bike actually adjusts to be harder or easier to do. So, you get the ultimate workout in the shortest amount of time possible.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I can't wait to hear how it goes when you try it.

Melanie Avalon: I know, me too. I just don't know where I'm going to put it. I'm like looking around my apartment. Yeah. So, I'll keep listeners attuned of that. You know what? I don't have the discount code for them yet, but I probably will. It will probably be MELANIEAVALON. So, I'll make a link for it at melanievalon.com/carolbike. And I'm just guessing the coupon code is MELANIEAVALON but I will let you guys know if that changes. [laughs] So, yes, but it's really exciting though to see the future, like you said, of technology with all of this. Yeah, I also have a mirror. Are you familiar with those?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've seen them. I've seen them. It's like a standing mirror where you can do workouts and stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, like with other people and everything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. That's so futuristic. I love it.

Melanie Avalon: I need to get in the habit of using it. Like it's there. I forget that it's there.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure you have stockpiles of biohacking equipment and things. I'm looking over at my desk and I have so many things that are waiting to be tested out that I'm just like-- and people are like, "Are you going to test it out soon?" I'm like, "Maybe if I can." [laughs]. Yeah. There's just so many things, so many amazing products, technologies. I just love things that make us more efficient, can leverage our time more. So, I think it all sounds really awesome if you can get more done in less time. I'm really, really interested about specifically building muscle with some kind of stimulation because I've heard now from a few people about, specifically the EMS, the electromagnetic stimulation of the muscle. For years before I heard that it was completely worthless. Now I'm hearing a lot of people are getting a ton of results from it. So, I really want to try it out.

Melanie Avalon: So, interestingly. Have you interviewed Terry Wahls?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I know her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you know her personally?

Vanessa Spina: Like, I know of her.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, know of her, I'm sorry. I had her on a while ago for The Wahls Protocol. She's actually going on a lot more shows now because she is publishing a new study. So, if you'd like to have her on her show, I know she's like wanting to go on. She randomly came back to me and was like, can I come back on for this study? Interestingly, she talks in her book and we talked on the show about using that E Stim for muscle recovery in people with MS. It's profound, the effects it has on their metabolic health, actually because they're not able to really maintain and create muscle easily. And so, this is a way that they can. We talked about how they are testing using it for astronauts in space because normally astronauts lose muscle due to lack of gravity. So, it's pretty cool.

Vanessa Spina: This episode is brought to you in part by AG1. Some of our listeners have really had wonderful experiences with AG1 and we wanted to highlight some of them on the show. Anna says I like the fact that I can stop ordering a bunch of supplements and have an all-in-one drink plus it has pro and prebiotics plus adaptogens, plus my husband is drinking it too, which makes me happy. I love getting to highlight some of our listener's own experiences using Athletic Greens. If you would like to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs. With your first purchase, go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out.

Melanie Avalon: We have one more question before we go and this question comes from Amy. This was actually from our Facebook group. She says, "Can you use the Joovv, which is red light therapy for 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?" I will say we've mentioned this before in prior podcasts, but we obviously adore Joovv on this show. And Vanessa also has her own red light therapy line, which is so cool. Tone Lux, she's an expert in the red light therapy world. So, Vanessa, red light therapy, 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes one part? And is it only 10 minutes? That's my additional question.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It's such a great question, Amy, thank you for submitting it. When it comes to using red light therapy panels, you really need to know the power output of the panel. There's something known as irradiance, which is the power density measured in milliwatts per square centimeter, and it's going to tell you how many joules are actually delivered to your tissues, and the joules make up to the dose for what your specific objective is. As many of you know which I think the reason you're asking this is because you're familiar with the fact that there is a bell-shaped curve when it comes to red light therapy. If you don't do enough, you won't see results. If you do too much, there's something known as the biphasic dose response where you don't get results either. You really want to be in that sweet spot. And that sweet spot is determined by the power of the panels and the time and the distance you are away from the panels.

With my panels, for example, I have very specific dosing guidelines in the manuals for different things. Like, if it's something more topical, then typically red-light wavelengths are better for that, as opposed to infrared, which go more deeply into the skin. As sort of a general practice that I've received from real experts like Ari Whitten, who wrote a book on red light therapy, he tends to say 10 to 20 minutes around six inches away is like a good guideline, but I always like to preface it with, you want to build up to that. If you're brand new to it, you could start with one to three minutes. You can do skin sensitivity tests before that, but then do 1 to 3 minutes and sort of build-up. I've been doing it for a couple of years and I don't do more than 20 minutes, so I alternate the different things that I'm doing.

Just like with resistance training or workouts, I have my leg day and I have my face and abdomen day. I have the day that I focus on the muscles that I'm conditioning my body for, so I don't do more than 20 minutes in total. You'd be amazed at how effective though the panels can be in small increments. So, for example, for your face, if you want to use it for boosting collagen and elastin factors, it's stimulating the epigenetic signaling that is going to boost those factors in your face. If you're using it on your face, you can use it for as little as four minutes on your face if you don't have any makeup or anything on your skin. And because you're using red light, which just goes on the surface and you're pretty close to it like six inches away, you only need like four minutes.

So, you can actually do a lot of different parts of your body depending on what you're wanting to treat it for within that 20 minutes. But I wouldn't go above that. Some people do it for different amounts for longer. Again, it really goes back to the irradiance or the power density of the panel that you're using because you can also not see results because you're using a panel that's not powerful enough. You want to make sure to be using panels that are very powerful as well.

Melanie Avalon: I learned so much. That was very helpful. So, a question for you. I have my device. Well, I have a few devices. I have a Joovv panel on my desk and I'm just so bad at gauging distance. It's about like I literally need a ruler. Like I can't gauge distance. It's probably 2ft away and I have it on like when I'm working at my computer, I just have it on because the light makes me happy. So, do you think that's an issue? Like it's on me.

Vanessa Spina: Personally, if I'm using it for ambient light, I don't shine it at me, I shine it at a wall, and that then reflects around the room. I like to use it at night for that. In the morning I actually turn it on when I get in the shower and then I'll shine it in my direction. I'm like 5 or 6ft away from it at least. If you are shining it directly on your body, I also turn down the intensity. I usually put it on like 25% or 50% of the total power in ambient mode. I wouldn't recommend having it shining in your direction for more than 20 minutes even if you're far away, because you could potentially activate the biphasic dose response and not get the results you could potentially see because of too much. But it's really hard to say, like I said, it depends on the power. But I know it's a nice feeling and it's a nice balance out from all the blue light to have it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's why I do it. It feels like you just said, like balances. How eloquent can I be in what I just said? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Yes. The sign of a powerful panel is that when you're using it about six inches away, it should feel like a day at the beach, you know what I mean, like that feeling.

Melanie Avalon: That's such a good little practical that's going to stick with me. That's great.

Vanessa Spina: Like a day at the beach.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, well, now I'm just thinking how I've literally, how many years have I been sitting here with this panel on me? Half a decade.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure it was only doing good things. There's cell free mitochondria. Your mitochondria are probably doing amazing, but we just still don't know what exactly can trigger that biphasic dose response. That's why people just always say to play it safe because humans have a tendency to do if something is good, more is always better, but it isn't with red light.

Melanie Avalon: Well, how can listeners get your device?

Vanessa Spina: Wow, thank you for that. If you go to ketogenicgirl.com, I have the three Tone Lux panels there. I have the half-body panel, which is the Sapphire, and I have the Diamond, which is the face panel, but you can use it anywhere else on your body. And the Gem, which is the portable one, that is great because you can take it with you when you travel, but you can also put it quite close to your skin because it doesn't have the nonnative EMFs because it's not plugged in.

Melanie Avalon: I love those travel units. They're game changers for when you're traveling. I'm also thinking about now, how about the Joovv that I have is always on my left side. It's been five years of it, like, one side in my body. Okay, it's fine. Wait, I do have one last question, and then we'll go. I promise listeners. So, you know what's really interesting being in this biohacking sphere and all the men I talk to. This actually comes up a lot with men I talk to in this world.

Vanessa Spina: It's the number one question they have. Right.

Melanie Avalon: I can't tell you how many-- and this might sound crazy that this has come up like platonically, but it does. How many of them talked to me about using it on their manhood?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know. It's the number one question. I did an interview last week with someone and we're talking about red light, and he's like, "So I've heard that it boosts testosterone if you shine it on your undercarriage." I'm like, "Yep, they all want to know." I think it's mostly because of Ben Greenfield, because I think he was, like, doing that a lot, and talking a lot about it a few years ago on his podcast. It's kind of, like, filtered through the ether to lots of men. But it scares me because you have to be careful because it's such a sensitive area there. The worst thing for men, like, the whole reason that men's gonads are on the outside of their body.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm about to learn something. I'm about to learn something. Okay, wait.

Vanessa Spina: The whole reason that theirs are outside instead of ours are inside, our ovaries are inside is so that they can stay cooler. Because it's so important for that area to not get overheated because it could damage sperm. That's why baths are really bad for men's fertility. Imagine you're shining like a laser there. You have to be really careful and make sure that it's like one to three minutes and you're keeping it at least like a foot away. I think people could do-- there're no negative side effects really to red light that have been reported, but I don't think it would be good to heat that because especially with infrared, you could really heat the area. But there're so many studies about it improving men's fertility as well as women's fertility. There're some really amazing studies on that. So, it definitely can boost testosterone levels. It can boost fertility it can boost motility of sperm and function. But. Yeah, you have to be really careful.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. So, when it comes up, like I said, in conversations with male friends in the sphere, I mean, most of those conversations have been about them actively doing it. So, again, it's funny that that would come up. But like, in the biohacking world, you talk about this stuff all the time. It's like not, I'm not flirting with them.

Vanessa Spina: No and I knew exactly what you were going to say before you said it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh man, it's so funny. Do you know, is sauna bad for male fertility, then?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I think it depends on the kind and how long you spend in it. But, I mean, there's a reason why men are less tolerant to heat. There're lots of different reasons, but I think that's part of it. But I know baths are not recommended if you're trying to conceive or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, fun times on the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. So, speaking of listeners, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, please do so. Just directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about and we talked about a lot of stuff. So, those show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode318.

And again, just a brief reminder. Come hang out with me at the Bulletproof Conference in Orlando, June 22. Use the code MA40 to get 40% off. Also enter to win $500 worth of BeautyCounter by updating or writing a new Apple Podcast review and talking about Vanessa in the review and sending that to questions@ifpodcast.com. And then you can follow us and-- you can also check out Vanessa's other show, the Optimal Protein Podcast, and mine, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. You can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I just loved all the questions and all the different topics that we got to cover in this episode and I already can't wait to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm so excited to record with Paul.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, that's going to be mind-blowing I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.  Awesome. Well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: All right. Sounds great melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 14

Episode 317: Measuring Ketones, Breath Acetone, Adaptive Fasting, High Protein, Food Addiction, Extended Fasting, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 317 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

LOMI: If You Want To Start Making A Positive Environmental Impact Or Just Make Clean Up After Dinner That Much Easier, Lomi Is Perfect For You! Turn Your Kitchen Scraps Into Dirt, To Reduce Waste, Add Carbon Back To The Soil, And Support Sustainability! Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! PLUS Grapefruit Salt: Will be back on May 25th! 
Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AvalonX Magnesium Nightcap: Melanie’s Magnesium Nightcap features magnesium threonate, the only type of magnesium shown to significantly cross the blood brain barrier, to support sleep, stress, memory, and mood!
Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: Valerie - Is [Vanessa] Going To Advocate A Type Of Fasting I Last Heard Her Talk About? 

THE TONE Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 317 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, some of which are clean fast friendly for free. Yes, for free. Plus, I have a very exciting announcement, an incredibly popular LMNT flavor is back. The more I research, and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency. Athletes, for example, can lose up to 7 grams of sodium per day. If that sodium is not replaced, it is very common to experience muscle cramps and fatigue. But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone, whether it's after a few glasses of wine, "Oh, hey," keeping an active lifestyle, or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key.

That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing, so many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that. It contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. Also, super exciting announcement, friends. One of LMNT's most popular flavors is back starting May 25th, you can get LMNT's grapefruit salt. It is the perfect way to balance the summer heat. Consider it your ultimate summer salt companion. You can mix it up in tasty summer recipes, energize your adventures, and most importantly, enjoy your health. 

Friends, this flavor is popular. It goes fast, so make sure to grab it once it's available, which is starting May 25th. Of course, we have an incredible offer to go with that. Members of our community will get a free LMNT sample pack with eight flavors with any order when they order at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. So, grab your LMNT order, grab that grapefruit flavor, and get your free sample pack, now is the time. Of course, you can try this completely risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and LMNT will give you your money back, no questions asked, you have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast for your free gift and grab that grapefruit salt flavor now and we'll put all this information in the show notes. 

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 317 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with Vanessa Spina. How are you today, Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: I am just buzzing with excitement. I am so thrilled and happy to be here. 

Melanie Avalon: So, for listeners. Hopefully you listened to last episode, Episode 316. That was the first episode with Vanessa as the new cohost of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. So, if you missed that episode, definitely check it out. We dived deep into Vanessa's history and everything that she's done in the podcasting world with her Keto Essentials cookbook, her ketone breath acetone measuring device Tone, which we will talk about, I'm sure, probably more in today's episode and just her story and how we connected. So definitely check out that episode. It's funny because we're really looking forward to that episode for so long. We've also been looking forward to this episode for so long because it's our first listener Q&A together. What's really exciting is Vanessa is a longtime listener of the show, so normally you're listening to this. So welcome to this aspect of it. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm like, pinch me. I feel like I'm dreaming. I'm so happy and excited to be here. And I'm a part of this community. I've been a listener for many years, and it's been in, like, my top 10 favorite podcasts over the years. So, to be here sitting with you it's such a huge honor. I'm just so excited. I can barely express it in words. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm too. I've been looking forward to this for so long. So, we're just talking about the format of the show and everything and how we normally, in the beginning, catch up. So, Vanessa, it's funny. I realized I said, like, day, but it's evening for you right now in Prague. What's going on in your life right now? How is mom life? 

Vanessa Spina: Mom life is great. Actually, were just talking about how we're starting out a new sort of setup tonight with this recording. So, Pete is on dad duty tonight. I mean, he's always on dad duty [chuckles] because he's an incredible father. Pete is with Luca tonight instead of me. I usually like putting him to bed and doing all that stuff. Pete does it occasionally when I have a girl's night out or something like that. But we're trying out this new format so that we can make this podcast happen and so far, it's going really well. So, I'm super thrilled that it's going well, and everything has been just absolutely wonderful. I feel like so many incredible things are manifesting right now, work wise and just in our lives. We're in such a good place. I'm so excited because the spring [chuckles] is starting and it's my favorite season of the year. I love summer, too, of course, but spring, there's this magic to seeing everything unfold and blossom and bloom, and open up, and it's just so beautiful to go for walks and see everything, all the blossoms and the blooms coming to life. I feel just so excited about life in so many ways and so excited about things happening and things to come and I couldn't be in a better place right now. 

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for you. [chuckles] First of all, this is how we are different. I am not about spring. I am visually like what it looks like. It's beautiful, but I think it's my severe allergies. I've realized my epiphany about it. I'm so allergic to grass, so viscerally I associate spring with not feeling well. I wish growing up, I had been eating a diet that was not inflammatory and taking my serrapeptase, because then I probably wouldn't have really experienced that as much. But I think just those childhood associations just really stick with you. So, when I think spring, I'm like ugh 

Vanessa Spina: Wait, so what's your favorite season? Winter. 

Melanie Avalon: Winter. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I already knew that about you. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: All the way. I had an epiphany, actually, recently, I was thinking about Easter, and when I think about Easter, I'm like I get this feeling of just dread. I think it's because when you're doing Easter egg hunts in the grass, which is, like, so allergic. [laughs] So allergic to. 

Vanessa Spina: I just want to hug little baby Melanie, and be like, "It's okay." [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: My two questions for you because we're talking about how excited we are. In your life, what were the most exciting moments of your life with everything you've done career wise? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, wow. That's such a question. Just work wise, I would say just work wise. 

Melanie Avalon: Like achievement, like climbing a mountain wise. This is a goal achievement-type thing. 

Vanessa Spina: I mean, this is one of them. [laughs] Right now being on this podcast with you is definitely one of the most amazing ones. I'm so happy to be here with you all. I'm just so excited. Like you said, you had that wave of gratitude for all the episodes that are coming. I'm so excited for all the brilliant listener questions because this show gets the most brilliant questions. The audience is super sophisticated and amazing and I love all the questions each week. I love this community is so amazing. You have done so much for this podcast. Like, last episode, we talked about your cohost, but you have done so much to build this podcast into what it is. All the behind-the-scenes stuff that you do for this podcast and you have done over the years is incredible. So, to be here with you, this is definitely one of those peak moments in my life. [chuckles] Like, it's happening in real time right now. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. It's a very meta-answer. Wow, that's amazing. Thank you so much for the kind words. I mean, I really not to go on the massive long thing about the audience. I mean, the show would not be if there wasn't an audience. And I'm just so grateful for the community and how engaged they've been for so long. I wonder how many listener questions we've answered. That's crazy. How many episodes do you have of your show now?

Vanessa Spina: We have just over 400. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Wow. We have such similar trajectories I was thinking because similar with this show and then with your bio, you started blogging in 2015, you said? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: I feel like I really started getting more serious in, like, 2014ish. And then your book came out. When did your book come out? 

Vanessa Spina: In 2017. 

Melanie Avalon: My book came out January 2018. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow. Yeah. That's really similar. [laughs] Yeah, we've been on parallel paths and we didn't know it and those paths are meeting in the distance right now and it's crazy. 

Melanie Avalon: We collided. I have another question for you because you were talking about making the schedule work for the show and how you do sometimes have like girls' nights. What's it like going out in Prague? 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, it's amazing. I mean, Prague is such an incredible city. It's the perfect size city. I like cities that are not too big, not too small, just the perfect size that you can walk around. It's one of the most beautiful cities in the world. So, like, airplane pilots will routinely say because they've been everywhere, like, "Prague is the most beautiful," and I have to agree, it's so beautiful, but it's got this ancient world architecture that's so stunning and exquisite. It looks like Paris. Actually, the same architect designed a lot of buildings in Paris. He designed them here too. So, it transports you to another time when you're walking through the city because it's so beautiful. But there's a lot of creative people and artists and interesting people here because you know the artists used to all go to Paris and Berlin, but those cities have priced out a lot of those people. 

So, Prague is one of the places in Europe that has a lower cost of living. That's changing a little bit now for sure, but when we first moved here, it definitely did. There's a lot of creative people-- that brings a certain atmosphere and energy to the city, I think. Because there's that creative energy and going out is just really fun. People here love to drink. It's very socially acceptable. There're wine bars everywhere. Last girls' night that we had, there were eight of us and six of the moms were pregnant. So, the guy was like, "Why are you at a wine bar?" [laughs] And we're like, "I don't know." We just came here because they're so commonly found. There's lots and lots of fun, cozy wine bars especially in the winter, they're super cozy by the river, that kind of thing. They have lanterns and it's just very very cozy atmosphere. In the summer, people drink a lot out. Like on the side of the river, there's like these river banks with lots of bars and cafes and it's a really fun vibe. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness, you're still breastfeeding right now. What type of drinker are you? Wine?

Vanessa Spina: I am someone who like I love tequila. I love margaritas.

Melanie Avalon: Tequila girl. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's like my number one drink. Like, when I was about to give birth, I told Pete, he had to have a margarita waiting for me after I gave birth because you can't drink the whole time. So, I was like, when you can't drink, you really think about the things that you want to have or you can't have certain things you're like, I want sushi [chuckles] and a margarita waiting for me when I come into the recovery room. So, that's probably my favorite drink, I think just because we love Mexico, we love that fun, vibrant atmosphere of Mexico. Like, margaritas just always take me there and then most of the time I'll do like a skinny girl margarita or just like a vodka soda-- sparkling water, that's kind of my go to. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, see, and this shows how much I don't know about having children. So, can you drink now? 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I can. I don't that often these days, but it's just because of lifestyle. Like, I'm just working a lot, taking care of Luca a lot. So, I know this is like a period of our lives, where it's going to be really focused on him especially and on breastfeeding. Like, I'm coming up on two years of breastfeeding. I feel really really good about that. But you definitely, if you wanted to drink, you definitely can. You just have to know the timings of, like, once you have a drink, you have like about half an hour until it's going to make its way to your milk. So, if I were to be drinking, I usually don't breastfeed him right after. Some people say you can pump your milk or whatever. I've never done that. I usually just don't breastfeed him after having a drink. But I don't drink that often these days because of our lifestyle. But if I do go out on, like, a girl's night, I can have a drink or two and it doesn't really matter because Pete's putting him down to bed, so I won't be feeding him. So, that's kind of just how you fit it in here and there when you can and we'll see when he's done. Like, weaning I'll probably be able to enjoy a drink here and there a lot more often. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I learned so much just now. [laughs] I'm going to live vicariously through you with the children aspect.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. I'm living vicariously through you in other aspects so. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Works well.

Vanessa Spina: How are you doing?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. There's like oh, well. So, when this airs? Because when does this air? So, this airs mid-May. But at the time of our recording, because we're a bit in advance, I'm launching my fourth supplement this Friday or Saturday? This Saturday, so magnesium threonate when listeners are listening now, you can get it now. So, this is funny. Speaking of well, night, are you familiar with magnesium threonate Vanessa? 

Vanessa Spina: You told me about it and I knew that you were launching that, so I really don't know much about it, so I can learn. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm a huge fan of magnesium because I think it's a mineral that just so many people are deficient in because of our modern farming environment, our diets, our stress levels. It's just a bad situation and that's why I released my Magnesium 8, which is a blend of eight types of magnesium. It's super incredible. But I specifically did not include magnesium threonate because it's a type of magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier. Other magnesiums, some can, but this is the only one that's been shown clinically to significantly basically saturate the brain to levels that would have a beneficial effect. So, I wanted to release it as a standalone, and you also need a higher therapeutic dose to actually get those benefits. We decided to release it as my Magnesium Nightcap because it can help support sleep and relaxation. I'm still really happy about that branding, but I sat down and did, like, a really deep dive to the research and I realized there are so many benefits on it for memory specifically. 

The majority of the studies have actually been memory related. Things like how it affects dementia, like Alzheimer models in rodents and all of those pathways. Now I'm like, "Oh, I hope we didn't misbrand it, calling it the Nightcap." Because I think some people could benefit from having it just for brain support and it's not going to knock you out. Like the dosing they actually suggest taking it morning and night. Regardless, I'm very excited. If people would like to get that now because it is live, you can go to avalonx.us and the launch special has ended-- Yes, the launch special will have ended, but you can use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off sitewide. Hopefully you're getting updates so that you didn't miss the launch special or future launch specials. For that, you can go to avalonx.us/emaillist or you can text AvalonX to 877-8618-318. One last thing, this might be repetitive if you saw my story. Did you see my story that I posted last night? 

Vanessa Spina: I didn't. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Can I tell you the moment that happened last night? That was like a moment for me. [chuckles]  

Vanessa Spina: Wait, I may have. I seen most of your stories this week, but maybe I missed the one that you're about to talk about. 

Melanie Avalon: I'll just tell you and you can let me know. I asked ChatGPT. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes, yes, yes.

Melanie Avalon: Not the poem one, though. I posted one about a poem. Okay, did you see the one about the biohackers? 

Vanessa Spina: I think so. 

Melanie Avalon: So, last night I asked ChatGPT-4. Do you use ChatGPT? 

Vanessa Spina: Pete's been trying it out and testing it. I haven't used it yet. But you were getting it to help you write something scientific, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Well, I was using it to do research on things it makes me very concerned. 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's right. You said that it said one thing and then when you questioned it completely made up a bunch of stuff. [chuckles] Yeah, it's terrifying. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: I was using it to research magnesium threonate actually. And so, I was like-- and to clarify for listeners, I was never going to just be like write a blog post and then post that like of course not. I was using it as a way for it to get me started kind of. I would say, write a blog post about magnesium threonate and would write this really great thing. It was like, "Look at these studies." I was like, "This is great." And I go look at the studies and they don't say anything about what it's saying. I'd be like, "Can you show me in that study where it's talking about what you just said?" And then it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, that's wrong." [laughs] I'm like okay.

Vanessa Spina: Well, at least it apologizes. But that's just--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it does. It apologizes.

Vanessa Spina: It's very terrifying because a lot of people wouldn't be as thorough as you and go back and actually look at the studies. So, yeah, it's really scary. 

Melanie Avalon: It's concerning. I actually think it's very concerning because it presents information so as a fact. Like, so certainly and the fact that it doesn't relook at it or analyze or anything until you point it out is concerning. And then also something it's done is like, at one point I was asking it and then I asked it like a random question, and instead of answering the question, it would randomly be like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I actually was wrong about this other thing I said a while back." It's like, "Okay." But in any case, the new version is ChatGPT-4, which apparently is like leagues beyond it. And this will be outdated by the time this comes out. We'll probably be on like ChatGPT-9 or it'll probably be like banned, but it just got banned I think in Switzerland maybe. 

Vanessa Spina: It's good to talk about it. You know so people know that there are certain things about it that they may not realize.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But this is happening. So, into the story, though. Last night I downloaded ChatGPT-4 and first thing I asked it was who were the most popular biohackers and it gave six. Number one, Dave Asprey, number two, Ben Greenfield, number three, Rhonda Patrick, number four, I think, Tim Ferriss, five, Aubrey Marcus, six, Melanie Avalon. [laughs] 

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh. I was going to say, "You definitely were in that list." Because that's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: And it only gave six. 

Vanessa Spina: Wow, wow, that's amazing. You definitely are, you definitely are. You have to be in that top six. 

Melanie Avalon: That's crazy. That blow--, like, literally blows my mind. That blows my mind because that's basically asking a completely third-party artificial intelligence to look at the Internet and decide you know. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing, that's amazing, that's like a real moment. Like, I just had my moment [laughs] at the start of this podcast and you're having your moment. 

Melanie Avalon: We're having our moments. 

Vanessa Spina: Congratulations. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. You too. Well, I don't want to say, like, "Congrats, on being on the show." Because it's just a natural fit, but congrats on everything that you're doing. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret and I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt, but it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while so you can imagine how thrilled I was, when a company called Lomi by Pela, reached out to me wanting to sponsor the show. Normally, I have to think a little bit about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device. It is incredible. Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around six to eight weeks and maybe even up to a year. But nope, with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants. 

Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours and you can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods, and packaging that are Lomi Approved. There's the Grow mode that's 24 hours. It's low heat with a longer duration and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible. Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with and if you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well. Turn your food waste into dirt with the press of a button with Lomi. Use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's lomi.com/ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes. 

Melanie Avalon: That was a long-winded way of saying we are very excited to be here and shall we answer some listener questions? 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to dig into them. They're so good. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. Okay, so today's questions. It's a blend of questions that have been emailed as well as I specifically ask for questions in Facebook, my Facebook group IF biohackers. I ask for questions specifically for Vanessa, so some of these are tailored towards her. The first question comes from Valerie, and she says, I like Vanessa and have listened to many of her podcasts. Is she going to advocate a type of fasting I last heard her talk about? Wake up at sunrise and eat and then fast and then eat later? It's totally different from Gin. Like I said, I do like her and listen to her podcast regularly, but it's a lot different. I'm excited about this question because if listeners go back and listen to Episode 316, we talked a bit about Vanessa's history doing first fasting one meal a day and then adding in keto. I had a lot of follow-up questions about her fasting history. Actually, Vanessa, can you just briefly recap your keto fasting history one meal a day spiel for listeners who missed last week and then we can talk about what you're doing today with fasting and all the manifestations and such.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to. I mentioned on the last episode that the thing that actually first brought me to keto was I was reading about the 5:2 diet and Michael Mosley, and then after doing that successfully. I then started doing the Ori Hofmekler approach, which is the Warrior Diet or one meal a day. And then I got into keto's so it's kind of the reverse introduction to IF that you had. What I really like is trying different strategies. Because intermittent fasting, as we know, is not a diet, it's a pattern of eating. The way that I look at different intermittent fasting strategies is that you can optimize for different goals depending on what you are currently optimizing for. I'm personally someone who is often switching things up because I'm often optimizing for different things. Although the overall concept of intermittent fasting optimizes for a lot of big things that I am targeting. There're different micro goals that I have within that.

I'm also an experimenter and I like to try different things and I see them as different tools for different goals. Things like deep autophagy or optimizing for melatonin production, for mitochondrial repair, optimizing for deep ketosis or fat loss or circadian health, fertility, muscle growth, lowering inflammation, there're so many different things that you can specifically target within that greater umbrella or space of intermittent fasting. I also find that because our bodies are always sort of regulating for homeostasis or balance, once you do a pattern for a certain way, you'll get diminishing return sometimes from doing that pattern. And I have found that sometimes my body will start functioning at that different level and I don't see the same results that I saw at a certain period of time. I like to switch things up and then I know other people like to find one intermittent fasting strategy or approach and stick to that because it's working for them long term.

But I'm someone who likes to change things up, so I am constantly experimenting with different approaches. So, when I started, I was doing the first 5:2, alternate day fasting for people who are not familiar with 5:2, then I was doing the Ori Hofmekler one meal a day, just having dinner every day. While I was doing keto, I settled into the 16:8, which has always been a foundational principle of my meal plans, is the 16:8 doing lunch and dinner. I was doing that for a really long time, alternating sometimes between that and one meal a day again because of different strategies, different things I was targeting and then this past September, I changed up my intermittent fasting pattern again to the one that you mentioned, Valerie, which is I started waking up at sunrise, eating my first meal of the day, which is mostly protein and fat macros within the first hour of being awake and then fasting until dinner. 

What I found through experimenting and I was experimenting, checking my ketones, is that my ketones were higher on the days that I did that right before dinner than they were when I would fast from even dinner to dinner or doing the lunch and dinner. So, I liked that pattern. I wanted to try it out. Right now, I'm currently in the process of changing it up again because it's like a seasonal time. I'm doing one of my seasonal fasts. I just finished doing an extended fast, and I like to do extended fast four times a year on the seasons change and I like to change things up again. So, I've noticed that my body has again started going back to homeostasis a little bit. My ketones have been dropping off with this breakfast and dinner approach and they've been getting lower and lower in the past couple of months, so I'm starting to experiment again and see what am I targeting, what am I optimizing for, is it fat loss, is it mitochondrial repair, is it autophagy, is it muscle growth and repair, is it lowering inflammation? Like, what am I specifically targeting? And then having that kind of approach. So, in terms of your question, I don't advocate one specific type of intermittent fasting. I advocate all of them. [laughs] I like finding the right fit depending on what that person is trying to optimize. Those goals can change or they can stay the same. 

Melanie Avalon: That was an incredible answer. [chuckles] It's just so wonderful because we get so many questions from people. I think people, they really want to do what's right, like they want to find the right version of intermittent fasting. I think it's so important to realize that different things work for different people. I mean, I know we say that all the time on this show, but it's really great that I love that you've tried all these different types of it because you're going to be able to speak to it, which is amazing. I have some follow up questions about what you just said, so many things. Thing one, the higher ketones before dinner in this pattern that you're doing now. So, how many hours is it between your breakfast and your dinner? 

Vanessa Spina: So, it's actually quite long. It's either sometimes 10 to 12 hours, between the two. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay. Do you think the higher ketones are a reflection of having eaten fat with breakfast? Like, how fatty is your breakfast or do you think it's burning fat ketones? 

Vanessa Spina: It's a combination of things, because one of the things is that my breakfast does include some fat. But the main difference, I think, why my ketones were higher going from breakfast to dinner is because I calculated out that it's more time that you are awake fasted than when you fast until, say, lunch and dinner, which is what I was doing before. When you sort of go into a mild ketosis when you wake up, say your body's starting to go into ketosis after 12 hours of digestive rest and then your body's starting to kick on ketosis. Most people have their breakfast if they're not doing intermittent fasting in that way. And I found that when you're doing that, you're asleep for a lot of the time that you are fasted. Whereas when you do this other pattern, you're actually awake for more of the time that you're fasted. Your metabolism, it gets woken up by that first meal. And then you will have a combination of some of the ketones from the fat, as you were saying. You also have this I think partly your metabolism is going and it's boosted because if you're eating mostly protein, which I am, you're triggering muscle protein synthesis, which is a big reason why we get this thermic effect from protein, so you have that going on.

And I think it's a long enough period between the two meals knowing that we are in the fed state for like 4 to 5 hours after consuming a meal. You go back into that fasted state after about between 4 to 5 hours. You're still getting a lot of time in the fully fasted state during that time. A lot of that is also just like burning fat. You're drawing on your body fat during that time because you have assimilated all the food that you've eaten before. It's definitely a combination of the two. So, I changed it up for a few different reasons, but I was really surprised that my ketones were even higher than when I was going 24 hours fasted, like having dinner and then having dinner the next day, which to me, I would have assumed that my ketones would be higher. I'm measuring blood and breath and it was really on my breath, using the Tone that my ketones were so much higher doing this approach, that I knew that my rate of fat burning was higher from doing this. So, it's a lot of experimentation. Like I've said, "They've recently dropped off a little." So, I think that's a part of having less adrenaline going because my body has gotten used to it, so it starts optimizing for this approach and so that's why I see there's benefit in changing things up. 

Melanie Avalon: I definitely want to talk to you more about the Tone device, before that some follow-up questions still because you're talking about the benefits of seeing higher ketones and your experience with ketones dropping. How do you feel about the natural progression of people being on keto or fasting for a while and maybe it being a normal adaptation to see lower ketones. Like in the Ketogains community, they'll say like, "Don't chase--" I don't know what their tagline is. Something like--

Vanessa Spina: "Chase results, not ketones." 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If they've been doing fasting long term or keto long term, should they see a drop in ketones just naturally because we're utilizing them differently or should we still be looking for you know higher levels? 

Vanessa Spina: The reason that I really like breath acetone are one of the main reasons is because if you are someone who's very active, like a lot of the people in the Ketogains community, and I'm part of that community too, I love it. I find that if-- Because I test my blood ketones in my breath all the time, so I'm able to do tons of experiments because it's what I do for work. And I'll test my blood ketones in the morning and they'll get up to say as high as like 1.0 millimolar and then I'll do a workout and they'll totally drop way down to almost nonexistent, like 0.2, 0.3 after the workout and it's because my tissue uptake is so high from the workout. If you're someone that's very active and you're just testing your ketones once a day, you might just see that 0.2, 0.3 and not realize that they had gone up higher before or you might not even see them rise because you're just so efficient at using them for fuel and you're using them, and your body is creating them all the time.

I also see there're a lot of other factors, like if people are eating super high protein, sometimes that can affect ketones to not be as high. I've definitely noticed that overdoing it on the protein and I'm a big protein advocate, but it can interfere with ketogenesis just by the nature of protein and what happens to it after you've digested it, which I know is another question that we have. What your body does with protein after eating it. So, I think when it comes to super active people who are doing resistance training, there is some physiological adaptation. Like you were saying, over time the body becomes more efficient at producing ketones and also at using them, which is one of the reasons why you stop excreting acetoacetate through the urine as much because your body just realizes it doesn't need to so at the beginning it has this spillover effect. 

The body gets really good at using the ketones, at making them, so you could definitely see lower numbers. But I find that whenever that happens to me, if I change things up or shake things up, change up, switch up my fasting window approach, or switch up my intermittent fasting pattern, my ketones do go high again. That's why I like using multiple tools. And with blood, it's cost prohibitive to test multiple times a day. With the breath, you can test multiple times a day. I think that's an area that I'm just really excited about because there's so much potential for doing more experiments. I've had people, for example, do an ice bath and then test their ketones before and after the next day and see what happens. On the breath, one of my group members, a podcast listener, he saw that his breath ketones doubled. And then it made me want to try it and mine doubled too. 

That's not something that I think you would have been able or here I would have been able to assess with blood. But with the breath, it's so easy and painless and quick that you can use a breath ketone analyzer to do that. And you can get, I think, more interesting feedback in different ways on different experiments. Some people won't get the same feedback. That's one really interesting thing as well, is seeing the differences between people and how some people respond to certain things and others don't. It's a better way of getting feedback on those things. With blood, I think it provides amazingly accurate feedback in terms of your level of blood ketone, which is really a storage form of ketones in addition to being a fuel. And you get amazing feedback from the breath. I think those two combined can give you really interesting insights. I do think that the people, like you said, who see lower ketones, I think it's usually because they're using them or it's because of physiological adaptation like you said over time, usually changing things up makes a difference.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. You touched on this. We do think that the breath ketones are more an indicator of burning ketones. Like they're a byproduct of that. 

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So, when your body goes into the state of ketogenesis, it initially makes acetoacetate, it makes beta-hydroxybutyrate, and those are actual fuels that the body can use. But acetone, it's called a ketone. What it really is a byproduct of that production because it's a tiny, tiny minuscule particle that is being spontaneously degraded from those other forms of ketones, which are the fuels and are being diffuse or escaping through your lungs. So, it's like the off gas or the byproduct of producing and utilizing those other ketones. When you are in ketogenesis, your body is at its highest rate of fat burning and that's why the breath can be such a valuable indicator for what your body is doing in terms of fat burning. There's a lot of bio-individuality when it comes to this stuff. And because we haven't studied breath acetone to the same degree as we've studied blood, for example, there's a lot less research in terms of understanding those levels and what those parts per million breath acetone, what it means. But I think that we are learning more and more all the time. It's just a really exciting area of research. 

Melanie Avalon: This is so amazing. Here are the questions I wanted to ask last week when you were talking about the Tone device. I'm just so curious. So, like I said last week, so many people probably want to be entrepreneurs or create products. I think so so few people actually do it because it's a very intimidating idea [chuckles] to do, like to bring that idea to reality. How did you go about deciding on the technology for the Tone device? How did you actually develop it? What was that process like? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Like I said on last week's episode, it was one of the most creatively satisfying things I've ever done to have a vision of something and then believe in its creation and then literally manifest something in the palm of your hand, that was just a thought. All the things that are around us, they were initially thoughts and ideas in people's minds, and now they physically manifest. So, to go on that journey was just absolutely incredible. To see how many people love it is something that brings me joy every day because I just love getting those messages constantly from people saying that they love it so much, and it just brings me a lot of joy. Initially having the idea, I then hired designers and contracted designers to help me design-- I actually ran a design contest for it, which was so much fun, too. 

Melanie Avalon: That's smart. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I was like, this is my idea. Let's do a contest and so--

Melanie Avalon: I should do that for future labels. 

Vanessa Spina: It's so much fun. It's like one of the most fun things. Well, every time I'm designing a new product or logo, I love doing a contest. I now have a designer that is absolutely phenomenal, and she understands my brain so well that I don't need to do them as much. If you are an entrepreneur who has an idea or concept, I forget which one I used. There're a couple of different websites that will run contests for you for, like, $50 or however much, you set the amount of what you want it to be. I'll have to find the website that I've used because I've used it a few times and you don't pay anyone for their entries. You just pay the winner and you give feedback, the whole process and it can be as long as you want. So, you give feedback until you get the exact design that you want. I had a couple that I absolutely loved, they're finalists and then I picked the design that I wanted that reflected my vision the most. We created a prototype so you can hire people to create the prototypes on what the actual mold will look like. And I investigated for quite a long time different factories that had the technology. You can work with institutes, so we work with an institute that studies breath acetone and making it all come together. 

There're a lot of logistics involved, but I love the logistics. I love all of this stuff I was telling you. [chuckles] I love filling orders. I love the whole process of people receiving something that I created with love. The packaging, everything, it's such a satisfying process, and I know you must experience that all the time when you create your products and all your amazing supplements. It's such a satisfying thing to create something that you want people to love, that you do it because you love it too. It's something that you personally use or you personally want and then have people support you and buy your things and then tell you that they love them. It's just so amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: I was thinking that exactly when you were talking about the first time, holding it in your hand. And I was thinking about the first time I held my first supplement, my serrapeptase. It's very surreal. Like you said, "It's like, oh, wow." This thing that was an idea, an intangible thing in my head is in my palm right now and it's something I really, really want. I need my serrapeptase every day and I need my magnesium and berberine. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited to try your serrapeptase. 

Melanie Avalon: A package is coming your way with all the things. 

Vanessa Spina: I'm so excited. I've been meaning to try it. We've been talking about it for ages. I'm doing some scar therapy right now. Yeah, I had someone, a quantum biologist, actually recommend to me because I'm using red light on my scars for the scar therapy. I said, "Is there anything else I can use?" She's like, "You should use serrapeptase and nattokinase." And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Melanie has been wanting to send me her serrapeptase." We've been talking about it. We haven't coordinated. There're things I want to send you as well. We haven't coordinated yet, but I'm so excited to start using it for the scar dealing with internal scar tissue.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. I am so excited to hear. Oh, so it's internal scar tissue? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I have my C-section scar. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you had a C-section? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. To Luca, so I've got a scar and it healed really beautifully on the outside, but I don't know what it healed like on the inside. And I have a scar on my knee from a roller blading accident I got when I was in university and that one didn't heal as well. So, I know that there could be improvements. I'm really excited to try it and I know there's all these other wonderful things that it does too. So, I'm really excited to try. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. For listeners, I mean, they're probably familiar by now, but basically, serrapeptase, it's a proteolytic enzyme. It was originally created by the Japanese silkworm. Its purpose and why it's so amazing for humans is for the silkworm, it's an enzyme that digests the cocoon without harming the silkworm itself. 

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That's why it's so amazing in us in that it only degrades nonliving tissue. Like it gets rid of the stuff you don't want to be there basically. It actually protects and supports living tissue. Yeah, it's very knowledgeable like that. It has so many benefits, for inflammation, there've been studies showing it actually breaks down amyloid plaque in vivo and in vitro, which is cool, scar tissue like you're mentioning. Gin started taking it for her fibroids. I was taking it originally for the allergy effects because it will clear your sinuses. So yes, that's serrapeptase at avalonx.us. And, oh, I'm sending you-- by the way, I'm sending you our big bottle that we just released because we released a new subscription version that's like a larger bottle. So that's what I'm sending you. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait to try it and report back. 

Melanie Avalon: I can't wait to hear your thoughts. So, another question about the Tone. Was it difficult to develop the technology for it? Because I think that's what would be really intimidating. 

Vanessa Spina: It's a lot of R&D, a lot of trial and error. I mean, the number of different devices that I tested with the technology once we had created the outer mold for it is probably in the thousands. I find them all over our place. Like, I was looking at my sock drawer today, there was one. They're in every drawer, in every compartment of this place because I've tested thousands of variations. And what's crazy about-- so with the blood, you have a very high concentration. You're measuring millimolar, so it's a very high concentration. That's why it can be so accurate. Now, with breath, it's 1000 times harder to do because you're dealing with 1000 times smaller particle. Like you're dealing with parts per million as opposed to millimole. It's such a tiny particle that escapes through your lungs that it's very challenging to quantify it in terms of a number compared to larger units. 

The greater the ketones are-- the larger they are, the easier it is to measure because it's a greater, parts per million quotient. So, it's a lot of time. We spent years just testing the different sensors and testing the different sensitivities. I'm working on the second generation of the Tone right now and I've gone through another several hundred [chuckles] variations of it. Each time we tweak a little something, take it back with the Institute. We have acetone gas that we use for testing and going back and forth. It's just a lot of iterations and a lot of patience. But I feel really blessed because my customers, the people who purchase the Tone, are very loving and supportive. Like I said, they love using the Tone because it's so convenient. Just buy one device and you can test forever instead of having to buy those test strips forever. They really believe in me and they believe in the product. 

It affords me the ability to be able to spend time perfecting and working on new iterations like new generations. I'm really excited about the second generation that's going to be coming out soon, I'm hoping, this year. And it's also going to have of a new look to it, just to freshen it up little bit. And it's going to be that much more sensitive for the smaller ketones, because that's one of the things that I noticed in the past couple of years, especially with having people directly using it and giving me feedback. Is that if you're doing intermittent fasting or you're doing like a 24 to 36 hours fast, your ketones may not get sky high. And just because of what we just talked about, if you're doing activity, you know things can change. So, I wanted to make it more sensitive for the smaller ketones, which takes a of work because it's making the sensor that much more intelligent and sensitive, but that much more useful for people like us who are not going into therapeutic ketosis or needing medical grade ketones for seizure prevention or latency to seizure, things like that.

I think most of us are doing intermittent fasting for the health benefits, for the wellness benefits. And we want to quantify like something to quantify or give us of a reassurance or feedback to say, "What you're doing is working and your fast is getting you into light ketosis." When you do little bit longer fast, maybe it's going little bit more deep than that, but just that sort of like confirmation feedback. That's what I've been working on pretty intensely for the past. Especially the last year, is working on this new generation, we've been building an app, a community-based app, so that we can, as a community in there, share results and adding Bluetooth to it. I think that's going to be the third generation because it takes a lot of certifications because once you have Bluetooth in it, it's sending out a frequency and so you need these other certifications that we're working on. So, lots of really exciting things that I'm super stoked about in the future. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. It's so incredible, so inspirational. 

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for asking this.

Melanie Avalon: No, I have so many follow-up questions, but then I was thinking, oh, because we're talking about how I am still embarrassed, how you still haven't been on my show, Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. I think that's going to be a good time to ask you I have a lot of questions still. 

Vanessa Spina: I can't wait. Now, that we have figured out a new way to match up our timelines, I think we're going to be able to do it much more easily. 

Melanie Avalon: 100%. I do have another Tone question, though. What does it give the user? Does it give them a number? What does it tell them? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, it gives you a number that generally correlates to blood pretty well. Those ketones are not the same as I mentioned they're different forms. Like one is a fuel, one is a byproduct. In general, there is a few different things that will happen with ketones. Like there is a delay, there's a time lag. And that's one of the things you see the most in the scientific research is that there's a time lag. They don't necessarily match up with blood ketones in the exact same moment, but then the breath will catch up with the blood afterwards. So, you get a number on the screen that typically correlates pretty well with blood. If you follow me on Instagram, I post every day my ketones and I post my blood and my breath. So, you see, they tend to line up a lot, but when they line up depends on different factors like activity levels, the nature of your diet, if you're actually in a eucaloric status, if you're doing a surplus of calories or maintenance or if you're in a diet, then they don't line up as much because there're different things happening in the body. But you do get a number and then I said I provide a little bit of context for it. 

If you're in a light fat burning or the fat burning zone, it shows that on the screen. And if you get like, for example, like this morning I had 0.6 millimolar blood ketones and I had a 6 on the Tone. It's like about a factor of 10 difference. I didn't put 0.6 on the Tone because I want people to pause and understand that it's not supposed to be the exact same as blood all the time. And there are times that it is for very specific reasons, but then other times the numbers won't be the same and it's also for very specific reasons. So, yeah, you get a number and that number will go up or down depending on what you're doing. A lot of times, because the body is always optimizing for balance, for homeostasis, that number sometimes it's surprising how often it's the same, but we don't know that because we don't test our blood ketones 10 times a day. [chuckles] When you start testing your breath, you're like, "Wow, my body, it's found like a baseline or a zone, and it tends to hover around that." When you get more deep into ketosis, you see that variability you know when people do longer fast, they see more variability. They see the numbers go up very high just like with the blood. So, it's super fascinating. 

Melanie Avalon: It's amazing. How long does it take to take a measurement? 

Vanessa Spina: It's about between four to five seconds. It's pretty quick. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. How can people get it? 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You can check out the Tone at ketogenicgirl.com. And we have three different colors. We have the white and gold has been out of stock for a while because the second generation is going to be coming out in the white, gold, and pink. We have the black and gold, and there's like, a few left of the black and rose gold. I think they're about to sell out as well, so black and gold. Black and gold is great because a lot of our partners or maybe males or people who are less into the more feminine looking products, [chuckles] they like the black and gold. I actually created the black and gold for Pete because he loves gold. Yeah, men tend to like that one too. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of, does he do keto and or fasting? 

Vanessa Spina: Pete, originally did not. He's always in a higher carb diet because his body type, it doesn't do well on low carb or keto. His dad is the exact same way. Whenever they cut out carbs, they lose too much weight, like, they get too thin. He has to eat carbs just to maintain weight and maintain a healthy weight. When we're first together, he definitely didn't, but especially the last couple of years, he's been home, working from home with me, and so he eats all the meals that I make every day, and they tend to be lower carb. [chuckles] He's tended to do more intermittent fasting over the years. He does a lot of intermittent fasting now. He's never been big into keto, but I kind of see it as something that he has become more and more interested in. He will become more interested in as he gets older. He's starting to become more interested in health and wellness, whereas it wasn't, like, as big of an interest for him before. But I think as people get older, they start to think about their lifespan or having a kid. You start thinking more about, like, "I want to live as long as possible, and I want to be in the best shape as possible." So, you start tuning in a little bit more where it may have not been as much of an interest before, whereas women are more primed and tuned to health things in general. 

Melanie Avalon: That's something I'm excited to talk about more in future episodes. Like having a partner and the role of being on similar diets or not, and whether or not there's a health focus or not. So, have you been keto ever since you went keto? Did you ever bring in carbs back at all? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't very much. I've been keto pretty much very consistently over the last several years, except a few years ago, I started my high protein experiment, which is what led me to become such a protein advocate. I changed the Fast Keto Podcast to the Optimal Protein Podcast. I really focus a lot of my content education on protein now and less on keto and I still talk about keto almost every episode. Like I said before, I'm always changing up things based on what my current goal is and what I'm optimizing for. There're definitely periods of life, I think, where we need more protein and when we need a little bit more like ketosis or we need a little bit more autophagy. So, I think it's important to be flexible with those things. With carbs, I haven't as much because I've personally noticed that when I eat more of high carb low fat, which is kind of the alternative for me to low carb high fat, I don't feel as satisfied and I find myself thinking more about food more often. 

For me, I find incredible food freedom in restricting my carbohydrate intake personally and really prioritizing my protein intake. It has made me as someone who used to be very much like a food addict and fixated on food. I don't really think about food at all now, [chuckles] except for when it's like mealtime. So, for me, that works really well. And there's been times when I've experimented a little bit with like doing more of a high carb, and I just don't like that it makes me feel that way or think about food more. But I definitely eat very seasonally and locally. So, in the winter, I do more of a keto like carnivore-ish approach, and then in the summertime, I definitely eat more carbohydrates. And because I eat a lot of protein, it bumps me out of ketosis, like, pretty much every day because I'm optimizing for muscle growth and building lean mass and optimizing and body composition so that generally kicks me out of ketosis and the intermittent fasting is what brings me back into it. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs.

Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram, I have so many videos of putting them on, so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun. Then you can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more, and you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietician will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement.

Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting, and so much more. Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting, sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or 12-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends you want to be in the world of CGMs. It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much, so definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

I love that you've experimented with all these different manifestations of fasting and we'll be able to speak to it. It's funny that we just answered one listener question. You mentioned extended fasting. How long are those extended fasts when you do them? 

Vanessa Spina: I like to do four to five days seasonal fast. Four times a year and I do them specifically for the purposes of deep autophagy.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Immune system rejuvenation. 

Vanessa Spina: It's such a reset for your cells for especially like, generating a lot of mitochondrial repair, mitophagy. It's amazing for the skin, it's amazing for digestive rest, everything. It's just such a good reset. I like to time it with the seasons. It's always like a good reminder and I always look forward to it and I always feel amazing when I do it. And it just lowers inflammation so much. You really crank up the dial on all the benefits that you get from intermittent fasting during that time. In general, I don't really like extended fasting for fat loss as much, but I do like it for that deep autophagy cellular repair and renewal as you mentioned. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. It hard at all for first few, like, the first few days or what's it like? 

Vanessa Spina: I find it pretty easy. In general, I'm a personality type that is I tend to have characteristics of someone who like easily follows things that I set out to do. I know it's not a super common one. [chuckles] It's like, Gretchen Rubin, the author, she talks about The Four Tendencies and it's the upholder.

Melanie Avalon: Upholder, me too [chuckles] completely upholding everything, inner and outer. We're there [laughs] all the expectations, sign me up. 

Vanessa Spina: I find it easy to do, whereas I also think because I'm so fat adapted, it comes more easily to me after all these years. But it's something that I really look forward to because it frees up a lot of my time. I spend so much time every day, like prepping and cooking meals, and I still do that for my family. But it's just frees up a lot of my time and energy to do other things. I don't find it difficult, I think, because I'm so fat adapted. But if I wasn't, I think it would be quite difficult. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. And you sleep, okay? 

Vanessa Spina: I have some of the best sleep, honestly, some of the best sleep because ketosis can be helpful for sleep. And I definitely don't wake up at all in the night to go to the bathroom or anything like that. It's definitely like some of the deepest sleep. I think there's so much autophagy going on that your body gets into those deeper states of sleep. I just find it amazing. I feel five years younger every time I do it afterwards, [laughs] so it's definitely worth it and definitely not recommended for beginners. For people who've been doing fasting for a long time, especially for someone who's used to doing like, 36, 72-hour fasts, I think most people find that once you get past the 72 hours, it's like a breeze after that. So, just stay busy, staying busy helps a lot, and I'm really busy these days, [laughs] so that makes it a lot easier. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's so inspirational. What's really cool is it sounds like the setup of what you're doing is the model of the research behind the fasting mimicking diet in that they look at, I know with fasting mimicking they're eating, but they're looking at that model often of because you said you do it once a quarter, basically. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I didn't know that's what they did. I know that there's a lot of similarities because there's barely any protein being consumed. You just shut off mTOR and IGF-1, and you just go into a deep autophagy too. 

Melanie Avalon: It's like a four to five day-- [chuckles] It's four or five days of that super low calorie, super low protein, everything. But the way they recommend prescribing it is they recommend doing it, like, four times a year. Have you interviewed Valter Longo? 

Vanessa Spina: I haven't yet. He's definitely on my list. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think we're talking about that. He's hard to lock down. [chuckles] 

Vanessa Spina: A lot of the big researchers are the hardest to get out of the lab and sit in front of the mic. Like, they're just so passionate about what they're doing. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah. It's so, so true. It's so interesting too. I know we're, like, out of time and this is a complete tangent, but it's really interesting how some researchers do become these celebrity figures, because there are so many researchers studying all this. But it's really interesting, like, the ones that become a public figure, like Valter Longo and David Sinclair, even, Rick Johnson. It's just interesting. I guess it's a mashup of-- it takes a certain personality that's I think more rare in that field. So, when they do have a personality that meshes well with being in the public eye, it's a unique thing, I guess. 

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And I love it. I think it's so fantastic that as a society, we're upholding these kinds of people. Like these brilliant people who are dedicating their lives to advancing research to benefit our lives. I think it's just so awesome. [laughs] I love it. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I feel like in a parallel universe, I would be, like, in a lab somewhere. 

Vanessa Spina: Same.

Melanie Avalon: For sure. Well, this was amazing. Our first listener Q&A in the books. How do you feel? 

Vanessa Spina: I loved it. I could record like 50 more with you. I can't wait to do so many of these. Like I said, "I'm so excited for the questions." Because they're so brilliant and I'm so excited to connect with all of you listening and to hear your feedback on these first couple of episodes. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I can't wait. We had a lot of questions on the lineup for today, but Valerie was the lucky winner. So, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes for today's episode will contain links to everything that we talked about, and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode317. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything else from you before we go? 

Vanessa Spina: No. I just love this first episode. I'm so excited for all the episodes to come and I'm just sending so much love to all of our listeners. 

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm just so happy. I'm so happy. So, I will talk to you next week. 

Vanessa Spina: Sounds amazing. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Vanessa Spina: Bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

May 07

Episode 316: Introducing Vanessa!, Amazing Keto Recipes, Food Photography, Growing Up Internationally, Biomedical Science, Entrepreneurship, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free ground beef For LIFE plus $20 off your first box!!

INSIDETRACKER: Get The Blood And DNA Tests You Need To Be Testing, Personalized Dietary Recommendations, An Online Portal To Analyze Your Bloodwork, Find Out Your True "Inner Age," And More! Listen To My Interview With The Founder Gil Blander At melanieavalon.com/insidetracker! Go To insidetracker.com/ifpodcast For 20% Off All Tests Sitewide!

JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Ground Beef For LIFE Plus $20 Off Your First Box!!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:00 - vanessa's background

The Optimal Protein Podcast

14:00 - podcast nomination

20:30 - young motherhood

22:10 - INSIDETRACKER: Go To Insidetracker.Com/ifpodcast For 20% Off All Tests Sitewide!

27:00 - vanessa's expertise

30:00 - education and growing up internationally

35:20 - biochemistry

Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight

41:00 - food Photography

44:00 - the online program

44:25 - 5:2 &Warrior diet

52:15 - peter attia

54:10 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

57:00 - Entrepreneurship

58:30 - measuring ketones

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine, and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free grass-fed grass-finished beef for life plus $20 off. Yes, free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We are so, so honored to be sponsored by ButcherBox. They make it so, so easy to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver 100% grass-fed grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that's really hard to find, by the way and wild caught, sustainable, and responsible seafood shipped directly to your door. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for everyone. That includes caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect and enjoying deliciously better meals together. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to transparency regarding raising practices, what is actually in our food, how animals are being treated.

I did so much research on ButcherBox, you can actually check out my blog post all about it melanieavalon.com/butcherbox. But I am so grateful for all of the information that I learned about their company. All of their beef is 100% grass fed and grass finished that's really hard to find. They work personally with all of the farmers to truly support the regenerative agriculture system. I also did an interview with Robb Wolf on my show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, all about the massive importance of supporting regenerative agriculture for the sustainability of not only ourselves but the planet. This is so important to me. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. If you recently saw a documentary on Netflix called Seaspiracy, you might be a little bit nervous about eating seafood. Now I understand why ButcherBox makes it so, so clear and important about how they work with the seafood industry.

Everything is checked for transparency, for quality, and for sustainable raising practices. You want their seafood. The value is incredible. The average cost is actually less than $6 per meal and it's so easy. Everything ships directly to your door. I am a huge steak lover. Every time I go to a restaurant, I usually order the steak. Oh, my goodness, the ButcherBox steaks are amazing. I remember the first time I had one and I just thought, this is honestly one of the best steaks I have ever had in my entire life. On top of that, did you know that the fatty acid profile of grass-fed, grass-finished steaks is much healthier for you than conventional steaks?

Their bacon, for example, is from pastured pork and sugar and nitrate free. How hard is that to find? ButcherBox has an incredible deal for our audience. For a limited time, you can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life in every box of your subscription, plus $20 off. Yes, new members can get free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast for free grass-fed, grass-finished ground beef for life plus $20 off. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 316 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here with Vanessa Spina. I don't even know where to start. I'm just so excited. But Vanessa, welcome to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina: Wow. I don't even know where to start either. All I know is that I'm buzzing with excitement. Like my chair could be buzzing. I have so much enthusiasm and excitement about starting this new journey with you. I can't wait. I'm so happy to be here.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, for listeners. Vanessa and I have been looking forward to this for quite a few weeks now. We've just been, like giggly like little girls, so excited, been looking forward to this like first day of school. Yeah. I'm just really, really happy right now. This is a moment. I'm taking it in.

Vanessa Spina: I hope everyone can feel our joy because it's just literally pure joy. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know it's pure joy and lots of emojis. [laughs] Vanessa and I use a lot of emojis. [laughs] Okay. Sorry. Okay. Staying present, but in any case. For listeners, the backstory leading up to today's episode, well, first of all, I just want to get, like, teary-eyed. I want to thank the listeners for being here so long in this journey with this show because it's so, so, real to me because so much of my life now is podcasting. I have the other show, The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. It all started with this show though. Now it's been over six years, I guess. For listeners who have been here on the journey the whole way, I was co-hosting with Gin Stephens for about five years, which is fantastic. She's just such a character and really brought a nice approachable perspective to intermittent fasting and provided the perspective of, like, a mom with older children. We had great banter and that really created a whole vibe on the show. And then her life was shifting around. She was changing where she was focusing her energy and her priorities.

Next came Cynthia Thurlow who was the host right before this. And Cynthia, so amazing, so fantastic. She brought so much to the show in that she is a nurse practitioner. She has a medical background. I think what I really liked about having Cynthia was I had this backlog of questions about menopause and women's hormones and all this stuff. When Gin and I were cohosting, were like we don't know if we can answer these. So, we got those all covered with Cynthia. And so, Cynthia was amazing. Similar to Gin, she just with her shifting priorities with her job and her career and her kids, it was time for her to step down from this show.

So, then it was time to find another co-host and I was like, “What do I do? Where do I go?” So, honestly, Vanessa, I'm trying to think you were probably the first person I thought of. I think you were because we'd been talking anyways. I had been talking about how if Cynthia ever wasn't doing the show, how I would love for you to do the show. Do you remember that?

Vanessa Spina: We were just talking about it as, like, fantasy life. You were like, if things change, wouldn't it be so much fun or something for us to podcast together? When you said it, my first reaction was like “Oh, my God that would be so amazing.” But of course, it's not real or it was just something that were talking about as like, “Wouldn't that be so incredible?” But I didn't think it was something even in the realm of possibility because of where I live and where you live and how whenever we want to do other podcast episodes or chat, it's not impossible, but it takes some scheduling so it was just like, “Oh, wouldn't that be amazing? There's no way it could ever happen.” Was my first reaction or thought and then we kept talking about it and it was like wait, no, we could make this happen because we both care about this pretty much. We both care about this same amount which is a huge amount and so we're willing to make it happen, make it work no matter what. It was just, like, so incredibly exciting that we had to make it become a reality. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I know. Yeah, so for listeners who are not familiar and I will tell you about Vanessa, but she lives in Prague, which is very far away. So, yeah, with the timing thing, I'm, like, not a morning person. Vanessa has an adorable son, Luca. Of course, she's very busy as well, so her evenings are with the time difference. It's her evening right now. We had historically, even just like, me going on her show, had issues with scheduling for that. The scheduling issue was a little bit of a hurdle to get over. But I think we found a time that's going to work for us and hopefully a schedule that will be sustainable. Yeah, once we nailed that down and I think yeah, so were talking about it, like, fantasy life, like you said. Very soon after that, Cynthia and I had a conversation about Cynthia leaving the show. So, I was like, Vanessa, [laughs] but I'll tell listeners a little bit about you. You are a legend in this sphere. I was very familiar with your work, your handle, your name that you made for yourself, “Ketogenic Girl.” People might know you by that, but you are the host. Before the Optimal Protein Podcast, it was the Ketogenic Girl podcast, right? That what it used to be called?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it was called Fast Keto when it first started and was that for about four years?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, never mind, lies, Fast Keto, but now it's called the Optimal Protein Podcast. Vanessa, I'm having to stop myself from going on so many tangents because now I want to have a whole conversation with you about podcast naming and podcast name changing, but I'm going to stop myself. [laugh] I will table that. In any case, so your show has been nominated twice as a top three best podcasts at the Metabolic Health Summit. Okay, now I am going on a tangent. When that happened, did they just email you like you're nominated?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Well, it happened twice as you said and the first time that it happened, I think I was notified on social media, but ketogenic.com was also running it at the time and they actually sent me an award. So, I have this beautiful award for being nominated. I didn't even win. I was nominated. I have this amazing award from them and how they do it essentially, I think they just started tagging me in the post saying, like, these are the nominees, and then now the most recent one, they took a pause, I think, during COVID from doing the Keto Awards and then they restarted again with the Metabolic Health Summit and that was this past year. Each time it's like a crowdsource nomination thing. I didn't even know about it until I was nominated both times, which was like the biggest honor because that means it was all driven by my listeners and community.

And then once you're nominated, you're like, okay, now you kind of are aware that there's going to be voting, and so you get a little bit more involved in rallying the troops to go and vote and stuff like that. But both nominations were total surprise, and I just was, like, in just such odd amazement because even just being nominated for me is probably the biggest honors that I've had so far in my podcasting career.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. So, it's a crowdsource nomination?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, as in, like, they put it out there for people and then people vote on the nominations and then the nominations become the nominees who then get voted on again. If that makes sense in terms of, like, crowdsourcing, I mean, people are voting for the nominees.

Melanie Avalon: When they vote on the nominations does the Metabolic Health Summit put out a list of podcasts and then the people vote on the nominations?

Vanessa Spina: I don't think so. I think it's just, like, open to anything. Open to anything and they take the ones that get the most nominations and then it goes to the voting. So, anyone can be nominated for the awards. So, yeah, it's just been in a huge, huge honor like I said.

Melanie Avalon: That's so cool. Did you go to anything for it?

Vanessa Spina: I really, really wanted to go to the Metabolic Health Summit this past year. I've actually scaled back a lot. I was telling you this when were just talking, the two of us in previous conversations, I've been scaling back on speaking because having Luca, he's my main priority in terms of what I spend my time doing, is being with him, educating him, nurturing him. Everything revolves around him now. For me to go and speak at an event, it's either like, leaving him, which is really hard to think of or bringing him with me with my husband. It's just a lot more of logistical planning and everything than ever before. So, I just become a lot more selective with what I go and speak to. And The Metabolic Health Summit is something that I would be incredibly honored to attend and Dr. Dom D’Agostino told me that-- we're talking about my nomination and he was like, “I voted for you.”

And I was like just to get to be there in that room with all the people who are attendees and speakers and presenters and I actually watched what happened? They videotaped it, but they put the Optimal Protein Podcast up on the big screens and shared that. There were top three podcasts and it was one of the top three. So, that was just like the most incredibly thrilling thing.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Who are the other two? Do you remember?

Vanessa Spina: For this past one, it was Dr Paul Saladino and it was Ben Azadi.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm airing my episode with Ben Azadi next week on my biohacking show.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. He actually won his podcast, one of the three. Yeah, it was just an honor also to be among the two of them because they're both amazing. So, I was really excited for that.

Melanie Avalon: I love that. Do you know my Paul Saladino story?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I've heard you over the years and I think what you're referring to is when you interviewed him on your podcast, and because I heard you talking about it to Gin years ago.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon:  Oh, gosh, [laughs] on this show?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, on this show. I remember I was, like, walking by the riverbanks in Prague and you were talking about how you did the interview with him, and it got, like, a little spicy, a little contentious, and I was like, I got to listen to that one and I still haven't, but I have to at some point listen to it I thought about it the other day. It’s like I need to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon: I think that was the second time I had him on the show. The first time I had him on-- he was one of my first guests-- I think he was my second or third guest on the biohacking podcast, which is crazy. And he was, like, going on a lot of shows. He had just started his show, but he wasn't huge like he is now. I literally have in the transcript-- I love Paul and I literally have in the transcript, like, us debating about meat versus meat and fruit. Did you hear that story?

Vanessa Spina: I think that's what you were debating about, right?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Things got I think it's a little feisty in our second interview, which was, like, a little bit later, but in the first one, yeah, I was telling him, “Wouldn't meat and fruit be, like, ideal?” And he was like, “No, fruit is nature's porn. Don't have the fruit don't have-- and I was like, what about meat, fruit, and honey? [laugh] Now he's like, all about the meat, fruit, and honey. Told you, Paul. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing you got in writing.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. But what's also funny, speaking of podcasting at the time, because like I said he had just started his show and so he wanted all this advice on podcasting and we would do, like, calls, and he'd be like, “Tell me how to podcast.”

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. He went to the best in the biz.

Melanie Avalon: It was crazy. That was a rabbit hole. That's so cool. Oh, my goodness, that's so cool. We'll see friends, Vanessa is very, very legit. And also, speaking of, you mentioned your son. She's also an inspiration when it comes to childbearing and child raising. I just can't wait to see how your son manifests in the world because especially after interviewing Gabor Maté recently and like the role of childhood development, I just feel so good about your child.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you. Thank you. That means so much to me. Pete and I both prioritize him above everything else and in the sense that we just devote all of our free time to nurturing him, I think, as any parents do. But we're really wanting to prioritize him above a lot of other things. I think it just comes naturally to you as a parent, you just want to do that naturally. I think we're both at really good places in our careers, both he and I, where we also feel like we can do that and we can prioritize it. So, I think it's also a little bit of a privilege that we can take that time to be with him, but he just lights up our entire lives. He's just so incredible and amazing and being with him every day is such a joy.

So, I feel privileged also to get to just spend time with him because he's just the most amazing special human I've ever met. And I'm not saying that to brag about us as parents, but just children are just so incredibly pure and beautiful and the way that they manifest in the world and the way that they learn things, and it's just such an incredible thing to witness and be a part of. It's the best thing that's ever happened to Pete and I, outside of meeting each other. It's just the coolest most amazing thing I've ever experienced in my life until now is being his mom. So, yeah, thank you so much for saying that.

Melanie Avalon: So incredible. You like give me hope for romance and for having children.

Vanessa Spina: I love that, I love that. [laugh]

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So, for listeners, fun fact, before I even had ever started this show, like way back when I was just daydreaming about having a podcast, the way I first saw it in my head was doing it with somebody similar to my age, similar vibe, like a real friend vibe. I'm friends with Gin, I'm friends with Cynthia, but this is the first time I feel like if you lived here, we'd just be like hanging out 24/7.

Vanessa Spina: It's bestie vibes. I mean, it's just bestie vibes. There's something about bestie vibes that's different from other friendships or connections that you have with people and it's just like a natural, just a kindred spirit kind of thing that anyone can relate to with their best friends like your kindred spirits and we definitely are, it's undeniable. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So, I'm so excited about that. But what I'm also excited about is relating to what you just said. You bring a new perspective to all of this, which is the young mom with the young kids. We haven't had that before on the show. So, I'm really excited-- I'm really excited to see how that manifests with listener questions and how you can respond to that, it's very exciting.

Vanessa Spina: Me too. I love that you started out by talking about this community, this incredible community because it is so amazing. And like you said, it was going to make you tear up a little bit just how long listeners have been with this show. I consider myself a member of this community. I've been a long-time listener from the beginning and I absolutely loved your dynamic with Gin. It was amazing. Just the way that you guys bantered and that you brought such different perspectives I think is really so cool. It's almost like the show is sort of growing and evolving in its own way. And then having someone like Cynthia join with her medical background was just, like, mind-blowing for me as a listener. I was like this is amazing. We're going to have someone with this clinical aspect to bring to it. And she's so knowledgeable, so knowledgeable. Every episode I felt like I was learning so much from her because she's so incredibly knowledgeable.

I have huge shoes to fill, absolutely gigantic shoes to fill. I don't want anyone to have any misconceptions. I am not coming in to replace or fill those shoes or I'm not an expert on intermittent fasting. I have my own areas of expertise and as an author I have talked about and written about intermittent fasting. But both Gin and Cynthia are experts in intermittent fasting and authors specifically on the topic. They brought so much to this podcast and I hope to just bring, like you said, my own perspective to things. There are certain things that Cynthia and I personally aligned on like our protein focus. I think I can sort of carry the torch a little bit for that and bring new perspectives as well. Having a background with keto, having a different approach to intermittent fasting than like you do for example, and just bringing that other perspective to things as well.

Melanie Avalon: I think it's going to be absolutely perfect. Yeah. For listeners so you completed a two-year biomedical science program at the University of Toronto. You're from Canada, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Originally from Canada. And my family is all Canadian and I have, like, French sort of British heritage. And I actually grew up overseas for most of my life because my parents worked overseas for the Canadian government. So, I spent most of my life in China, in Asia, and coming back and forth to Canada in between. And then we went back to China when I was in grade nine and we did another posting there. And then instead of coming back to Canada, we went to the Philippines to Manila and I finished high school there. And I was doing an International Baccalaureate program and then I moved to Vancouver in Canada to go to university. So, I came back to my roots, came back to Vancouver, and like I said, I am Canadian, but I consider myself like an international citizen, like a citizen of the world because we've lived in so many places.

Melanie Avalon: Whoa. That's amazing. My sister is actually right now in Tokyo.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's incredible. Yeah, Japan is just like another planet. That's so cool. It sounds like your family travels a lot.

Melanie Avalon: They do. This is how we're so different. I need your travel skills.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous of people with epic travel skills. It's like the one thing I want. Like, if I was before God and he was like, “What talent shall I give you?” I was like, “Give me travel skills.”

Vanessa Spina: You can get them. I know you love learning so much, and there is no more exciting, thrilling, like hands-on learning than travel. You have to go to all the places and see everything. Just the kind of person that you are, you would just love it so much.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. I'm grateful that my travel fear didn't start. It was late-onset travel fear. I did a lot of traveling growing up, mostly like Europe and stuff. Working on it, working on it. Was that your undergrad, the program?

Vanessa Spina: No. I did a full undergrad at UBC and I was doing political science at the time because my passion was nutrition. So, I took nutrition as my elective. But I thought that I had to have like a very serious career because my parents were diplomats and I wanted to do something very serious like they did and very impactful. I just didn't really know what I was going to ultimately end up doing. So, I did political science. I think it's because also my brother did political science. I was like, well, he did it, so I'm going to do what my big brother did. While I was there, I figured out that I really love business, I really love finance, and I really love nutrition. But I don't know why, I just didn't think that it was something that I could do because my parents didn't do, like, scientific degrees.

And biology was my favorite subject in school when I was in high school. Especially, like, looking at the mitochondria and looking at all the organelles. I don't know why it didn't occur to me I didn't put it together at the time. So, I went into finance right after school, and I worked in the stock market in Vancouver, and I learned a lot about business. I have my Canadian securities license to be like a securities broker, stockbroker and I loved it. It was very exciting. It's where I met my husband. We met in finance at a financial conference in Vancouver and it wasn't until about seven years ago I started doing Ketogenic Girl as, like a passion, hobby side project. And I had like an Instagram Ketogenic Girl and it just absolutely took off. And it got to the point where my passion or side hustle, it wasn't really a side hustle, it was just my passion.

Like, my hobby started taking so much of my time that I made the decision to switch careers. So, I totally switched careers when I was pretty well established. And one, I was also, like, a news anchor for this financial show. And I loved it. It gave me a lot of media training and helped me interview people, and I loved being on stage, like behind the anchor desk and interviewing financial experts. It was super thrilling. I just got to pick the brains of all the most brilliant financial people, like, people from Dragons Den and all these amazing people. But I never felt at the end of the day that I was personally aligned with my passion. For me, that was always nutrition. It was always like health and science.

So, I don't know what happened, but I suddenly got the confidence, maybe because everything took off and my social media following was growing a lot. And then I wrote Keto Essentials, my first book, and I suddenly got the confidence maybe from community people that I was helping or what it was to go back and pursue science. So, I applied at University of Toronto and got into their biomedical science program, which was mostly focused on biochemistry, which is for someone who doesn't have a science background, it's like speaking Russian. It's basically like learning a new language. It's so complex and amazing.

But I loved it. So, from the first couple of exams I had where I was barely passing, I went to having 90% on everything towards the end of the program, on biochem especially, and I just took to it so much. As soon as I learned and understood the basics, I was like, flying through it. And it was also focused on physiology and also pharmacology, which was very interesting because that's when you learn all the first pass metabolism, aspects of metabolism, and everything. So, it was an incredible program. It was very hard and it took me two years, but I almost needed to level up to be able to keep up with some of the things that I was seeing, like social media debates about things like gluconeogenesis. I was like, I don't know who's right. I don't understand how to decipher what this means. I have to go back and learn biochem for myself so I can understand these pathways and then I can form my own opinion. So, I'm not a medical expert or anything like that, like I said I'm not an expert on intermittent fasting.

I do have my areas of expertise with regard to keto and protein and stuff. But, just going back and learning that stuff challenged me so much, and it was just a huge part of my education so that I could speak to some of the incredible guests that you and I have the honor of speaking to on a regular basis and at least be like somewhere on the same page with them and have also more advanced discussions I think is really important because sometimes you'll see these authors or experts and they'll be on a podcast sort of what's the word for it? Like a podcast circuit? [laughs] Like they're releasing a new book or whatever, and they go and do the same interview on every podcast because they submit questions, and I always want to get questions that nobody else asks. I know you're like that too. You have to go deeper and really understand the science behind things, I think, to have those deeper level conversations.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, see, that is huge. If I could download one degree or educational library into my head it would be biochemistry for sure. Does it really stick with you? So, for example, if you hear Krebs cycle, do you know all that?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, for the most part. But certain things, if you don't keep up with them, they will fade, so, you have to continuously-- I think that's why doctors have continuous medical training. You have to constantly brush up on the basics because you could be an expert on a certain topic one day or a certain pathway. You could know it in and out and then you could forget it because there're just so many things. There're so many things. It's not so much that you forget it, but it just kind of fades a little bit so sometimes you just have to like go back and refresh. But you know for the most part, a lot of it does stay with you because it is very foundational.

Melanie Avalon: That's incredible. I'm so jealous. That's amazing. Oh, you're going to bring so much to this show. Very excited about that. You've just kind of mentioned it in passing, but writing a book is no small feat. So, I have actually in front of me right now Keto Essentials: Your Complete Guide to the Ketogenic Diet. 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight by Vanessa Spina. And on the cover, it's your picture. And then we have-- I'm going to describe it. I'm curious for the pictures on the book, were you super involved in the design of the book creatively?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, as much as you can be. I definitely, like, it had to be a reflection of me or like a projection. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: So, there's like a, is it chocolate mousse?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Chocolate mousse with whipped cream and then tenderloin béarnaise asparagus?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And then what are those? Are those rolls?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, those are goat cheese balls, [laughs] fried goat cheese balls.

Melanie Avalon:  Fried goat cheese balls. And then coconut something?

Vanessa Spina: There's zucchini chips. Zucchini chips at the bottom.

Melanie Avalon: And then tuna avocado salad.

Vanessa Spina: There's like a slaw with avocado and salmon sashimi on it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, then it continues on the back. Steak and like mushroom sauce?

Vanessa Spina: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: And then strawberry almond salad?

Vanessa Spina: Yes?

Melanie Avalon: Was that fish next to it with the broccoli or chicken?

Vanessa Spina: That's lemon chicken.

Melanie Avalon:  Lemon chicken. Sweet cinnamon.

Vanessa Spina: Crepes? Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yes. And then onion rings? No, no, no, calamari.

Vanessa Spina: Calamari? Yes. Good eye. That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon:  And then wait, is that orange juice?

Vanessa Spina: That's actually lemon curd in shot glasses.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay, okay. So, friends, if you're looking for keto recipes, definitely get this book. It is absolutely gorgeous. Tons of pictures, tons of recipes. We get a lot of questions on this show with people, especially people on the keto diet and recipe recommendations, so definitely get this. And did you come up with all these recipes yourself?

Vanessa Spina: I did, yes.

Melanie Avalon:  All of them?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. It was such a fun process because I love cooking, like, I've always been passionate about cooking. My mom really inspired me a lot in the kitchen and she also took me to a lot of cooking classes and really taught me how to cook well, I think. And she's just such a fantastic cook and hostess, so that's always been a big passion of mine. I really wanted to share all these amazing recipes that I have. And the reason I say amazing is because I was telling you, I've grown up all over the world, so I was really exposed to a lot of different culinary traditions, and a lot of my recipes are like Thai curries or like lemon chicken or inspired by the best dishes that I tasted in every country. So, I was like, I got to take the best recipes of every country that I've tried and then ketofy them.

And I was already doing that for myself. So, when it was time to write the book, I was like, I'll just share what we make on a regular basis. And in that sense, it was pretty easy to come up with the recipes and just go by inspiration because I already knew what we loved and I knew that people were going to really enjoy them because I don't like to put anything in my mouth that I don't absolutely love. So, yeah, it definitely was a fun process and creative process and it was a very satisfying inspirational process.

Melanie Avalon: I'm flipping through it right now, getting really hungry. What's your favorite recipe in it?

Vanessa Spina: Gosh, I have so many. Probably the spinach and artichoke dip. That was one of our favorite recipes that we always used to get at Milestones Restaurant, which is a really popular restaurant in Vancouver. It's super keto without the tortilla chips, right. So, it's one of my favorite things and it's also just like a fun dish that you can bring with you to parties and social events where you can enjoy it with some pork rinds or cucumbers or keto crackers. Like, there're so many options for that kind of stuff now, so that's probably one of my favorites. Goat cheese balls are definitely up there. [laugh] I love fried goat cheese or just like fried cheese. It's actually a huge thing in Prague is the fried cheese. It's like on every single menu.

Melanie Avalon:  You have a dairy-free fettuccine Alfredo. Super cool.

Vanessa Spina: Yes. Vegan fettuccine alfredo. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. And for listeners, on each page, there's a very easy-to-read, like, label system where it says if it's dairy-free, egg-free, or nut-free, and it gives the macronutrients, so the fat, protein, carbs, fiber, calories. So, super amazing, I'm assuming with the photos, were you actually there for any of the photos, or did they just plate it and take the photos themselves and show you the gallery?

Vanessa Spina: I took some of them. [laughs] I took some of them and the majority of them were by a photographer that I hired and that I was working with. I was already working with her on my meal plan. It was perfect because she was already used to doing a lot of this stuff. So, when I first started, I would spend all day making a recipe and then I would photograph it. But it was during the winter in Prague and so the light would start going down like around 3 in the afternoon. So, by the time I had made a recipe and prepared it because you also have to style it with like different colored backgrounds, like bright backgrounds and colorful backgrounds. You can't just put a plate. You have to have a presentation and then you have to have some of the twigs of parsley or rosemary in the background and then, like, a splash of powdered whatever.

It's an artistic shot and I think so much goes into it. So, by the time I would have that all setup, I would start taking photos, which I wasn't an expert in either taking, I wasn't a photographer, so I also had to learn how to take photos, but it was really fun to learn all those things. But by the time I started taking pictures, it would start getting dark. I was like, this is not working. At this rate, this book is going to take like 10 years. I was like, I should just work with my photographer and she can fill in the rest. I get excited when I flip through and I see like one on ones that I did, but the vast majority she definitely took and with lots of bright light because yeah, she was a professional at it, but she would send me the shots, and from working together for a while, she had idea of my aesthetic. And I put a lot of marble backgrounds, a lot of dark wood because that's kind of the aesthetic that I like. But it was really fun working with her too.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, this is amazing. I love how in the glossary in the back is with pictures. That's super helpful.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, and there's like meal plans in the back with little photos there.

Melanie Avalon: This is so beautiful. Also, sidenote, it starts getting dark at 3 in Prague.

Vanessa Spina:  In the winter, like in the, like the dead of winter, the light like the sun sets sometime around like four to 4 to 4:30. So, you start losing that full spectrum light already.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so jealous. I need to move to Prague.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, please. It's very cold and dark in the winter here. You would love it.

Melanie Avalon: Sign me up. I'm all about the darkness. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, it's hard to do like artistic projects or take photos, but yeah, it gets really dark.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. Okay, so listeners, again get the book Keto Essentials and then you mentioned your programs. So, what's your history doing online programs?

Vanessa Spina: I started the first one actually by request. People were messaging me on Instagram and asking me for meal plans because keto, especially around that time when I first started posting about keto was like 2015, 2016. And actually really interestingly, the thing that brought me to keto was intermittent fasting. I have to just mention this because I was at the hair salon, I was reading a magazine and there was an article on Michael Mosley and like 5:2. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, this intermittent fasting thing is amazing.” So, I started doing it and then somehow I found Ori Hofmekler's Warrior Diet book.

Melanie Avalon: That's how I started.

Vanessa Spina: No, really?

Melanie Avalon: Well, first I read this blog post, Rusty Moore, he had this blog post online called "eat one meal a day." Like, literally, that's what it was called.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Does that ring a bell?

Vanessa Spina: Maybe that's how I found it. I wish I could remember how I found it.

Melanie Avalon: This was like old school internet. This was like the days of a blog post and hundreds of comments. So, no Facebook [laughs] like forums. So, I would check the blog posts to read the new comments every day. But it was like, “Eat one meal a day to lose weight.” I was like, what is this? And then I found Ori.

Vanessa Spina: I wish I could remember how I found him. Maybe it was like on a-- because around that time I started listening to podcasts as well. And maybe I heard him recommend it or something on a podcast. Like that's very possible but I loved his book and I was like--

Melanie Avalon:  Ori’s book?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. And the one-meal-a-day concept. So, I started with the 5:2 and then I started doing the one meal a day, the OMAD approach. And it really worked well for me. At the time, I wanted to lose about 15 to 20 pounds and I lost 15 pounds doing that. And I really leaned up, but I hadn't fully changed my macros.

Melanie Avalon: What meal were you eating for the one meal?

Vanessa Spina: It was like a super high carb.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, sorry, when or both. Well, I guess yeah, both, like, when? Was it your dinner?

Vanessa Spina: Was doing dinner. I found that to be the easiest because you start each day with the most amount of willpower that you're going to have each day. So, it made sense to me to have that meal at the end of the day when you have the least amount of willpower left when you're done. So, using up all your willpower for decision making or whatever else. So, it just made the most sense to me. I was doing pretty high carb and I was vegetarian for most of my adult life. So, I was doing vegetarian super high carb like most vegetarians. You're eating really high carbs.

And so, I was doing that high carb and I was definitely getting results, but I wasn't really noticing some of the other benefits that I wanted, some of the other health benefits. And so, doing keto I started by going gluten free and then I started changing up my macros and trying out keto. I think I heard Dr. Dom D’Agostino and I heard Dr. Peter Attia on Tim Ferriss' podcast. And I was like, these guys are amazing. I have to try this keto thing that they're doing because they were like some of the first people who were doing it and talking about it. And they really sold me on it. It sounded amazing.

So, I started doing keto with the OMAD, but it was just interesting that sort of my coming to keto all just started with intermittent fasting. I had the social media going with the keto and for me it was always combined with intermittent fasting from the very beginning because they go so well together. Not that you have to do one or the other or like you can't do them separately, but when you do keto you have ketones from ketosis and you have the ability to go for long periods of time doing intermittent fasting. I think a lot of people find it more easy to do it when they're fat adapted, so they just go very well together.

So, I had people starting to ask me about the meal plans and asking me for recipes. There was one woman who wrote me and she said, “Can you just make me like a 14-day meal plan?” So, I was like, “Okay, I'll make you one.” And it was Christmas time. So, Pete was like, all by himself. He still brings this up to tease me, but he ended up spending all of Christmas by himself walking around the center of Prague, which is really beautiful and magical. He was by himself because I was at home writing this meal plan for this woman and I ended up turning it into the 28-day Ketogenic Girl challenge that really took off.

I started like a Facebook coaching group for it and it was so much fun, it was amazing. So many people were interested in it. And I really enjoyed working with people on the meal plans. At the time, it was a resource, I think, that was needed because there just wasn't a lot of information out there about how to do keto, which sounds crazy now because there's so much, like, it totally exploded. Yeah, so keto has completely exploded since then, but that was how it first started, and thousands of people took the program and it was a ton of fun to do it at the time.

Melanie Avalon: Mine as well was through Ori, but I did the opposite view. I went keto first and then adapted intermittent fasting with one meal a day. But I agree with you that when you're doing one or the other, the other one very easily falls in line because they both create this state of fat adaptation and running on ketones. I actually have follow-up questions about that, but I'm going to save it, I think, because our next episode, somebody actually asks about this. So, I think I'll ask you some more questions about this next episode. Teaser listeners. Also, a really funny story just really quickly. Have you interviewed Ori?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I know that I think I heard you have or you and Gin did.

Melanie Avalon: We did which was very surreal because that was forever ago. It was before my biohacking show. So, I was still very much like-- I'm still in awe of the guests that I have on, but it wasn't routine for me to be interviewing incredible people all the time. But I had a moment. Did I tell you what happened with my sister the other day with this? So, my sister, the one who's in Japan, she's like crazy in a good way. She's like one of my closest friends, but she does-- like we're polar opposites and envision like the movie Frozen. Like, I am Elsa, like cold, calm, blonde. I want to just stay in my ice castle and wear pretty dresses. She's like spunky and crazy and out there and changing her hair every day. So, she does taekwondo and she's like really high up in it. But she was talking about one of the guys-- This is in Atlanta. She was talking about one of the coaches, and his name was something like Hofmekler. And I was like, “Oh, Hofmekler?” I was like this guy Ori Hofmekler was like the reason I do intermittent fasting. And she asked the Hofmekler guy about Ori. It was his uncle. It's his uncle. [laugh] Like what are the odds? [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: That's insane. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't that crazy? So, needless to say, we should have him on this show me and you.

Vanessa Spina: I would love that. I just wrote in my notes that I need to interview him because I can't believe I have it yet. And so, yeah, that would be incredible.

Melanie Avalon: We should. Okay, I'm going to reach out to him, like, ASAP. We can have him on, him and Rick Johnson. Sorry, Vanessa and I love Rick Johnson. [laugh]

Vanessa Spina: We're like his number one fans like fan club over here fan club manager.

Melanie Avalon: I know and Peter Attia. Which sidenote, did you see Peter Attia on Joe Rogan this week?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, no, I missed that.

Melanie Avalon: He gives Joe a monologue about how incredible Taylor Swift is. I think you saw my video.

Vanessa Spina: I can't get that image out of my head. It's like burned in my head. Like the pants. It's, like, burned in my mind.

Melanie Avalon: Peter posted a video of going to the Taylor Swift concert with his daughter and dressing up like Harry Styles. And I was just thinking because that hadn't occurred to me while you were talking. I was thinking because Taylor Swift is like my ultimate, ultimate. If I was at the Taylor Swift concert and Peter Attia was there too.

[laughter]

Literally, I would die. [laughs] I'm crying. I would be crying. [laughs] Like wouldn't know where to look. Like, if Taylor's on stage and Peter's like [laughs] next to me and he's dressed up like Harry Styles, I mean, wow. Okay. Bringing it back anyways, [laughs] okay.

Vanessa Spina: This is going to be our biggest challenge you guys. Give us some grace. Our biggest challenge is going to be, like, staying on target with things on task because we could go on a tangent every second.

Melanie Avalon: No, I'm also thinking I got to talk to the editors because normally the editors, the style of the editing is they edit it. So, like, you talk, I talk, you talk, I talk. Like I don't like overlapping. But I'm going to tell them that they can lighten up a little bit because if we're both laughing, you can just [laughs].

Vanessa Spina: Imagine it's like just you laughing. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: No, because that's the way they're going to do it if I don't tell them.

Vanessa Spina: I've had that happen on podcasts before, and I'm like, “Oh, man, I was laughing so hard during that and I feel bad because the guest is just, like, laughing by themselves.

Melanie Avalon: I know. [laughs] Okay, so making a note. Okay, Dan. Oh and for the editors, when they edit this, you can just leave all this in.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get an exclusive discount on one of my favorite health products of all time that I have been using for years. There are so many different health products out there today, it makes it really hard to know which ones actually work. Well, one of my daily health habits for years now has been using my JOOVV. You guys have definitely heard me talk about JOOVV before. Yes, that is J-O-O-V-V. I use my device daily to support healthy cellular function, which is the foundation of our health.

Honestly, having healthy cellular function gives me peace of mind that my body is working efficiently and has the energy it needs to get through the day. There are so many clinically proven benefits from red light therapy. I have personally experienced the incredible effect on my circadian rhythm, enhanced skin health, and reducing muscle pain. I did something to my knee. I'm not sure exactly what and my JOOVV red light therapy device has been a game changer in alleviating inflammation there and making it feel better.

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Something else I really want to talk about before letting you go. Okay? So, recap for listeners. Not only is Vanessa the host of an incredible podcast, so many things we talk about that's been nominated, not only is she the author of a beautiful, gorgeous book with amazing keto recipes, not only does she have an incredible biomedical science degree in biochemistry, but she is also an entrepreneur, a fellow entrepreneur. I have been so inspired by Vanessa. She has created two products. For listeners who are not familiar yet with this, are you ready? She created a Tone Device, which measures breath acetone aka breath ketones. Yes, friends, the new cohost of the show created a breath ketone analyzer. I'm sure listeners are, like, buzzing with excitement right now because we get so many questions about this. So, having you here is just amazing.

And now we can just, like, people always want recommendations and so be like, get this now. And then you also created as well, wait for it, listeners. What is something I've been talking about since day one, almost that would be red light therapy. And Vanessa has created the Tone Lux red light therapy line as well. So, this is incredible and it is no small feat to do that. So, my big question for you is just, like, how? What was the process like? A, well, why and how? So, what made you decide to create these? And what was that process like manifesting your vision? Because I think so many people have dreams of doing something like that, but actually doing it, so, few people do it.

Vanessa Spina: Well, thank you. I consider my tires pumped. Thank you so much for pumping my tires so much. You're just so kind and generous with your words. It was the most satisfying creation process. I think as humans, we're all creators and it's so satisfying when you have a vision, you believe in it, you manifest it. So, I really wanted to create a noninvasive, more accessible tool for interpreting ketones because one of the things that I know from working with people over the years that testing your blood is painful and expensive and you don't really have context for what it means. When you get the results, you have to kind of go and interpret that and learn that.

So, that method is primarily focused on testing your beta-hydroxybutyrate or blood ketones. And then there's the urine method, which is just not the most pleasant experience anyone who's done that. It's not easy and efficient, you can't do it anywhere, it's not very portable. The other thing with acetoacetate, which is that third ketone you're measuring with urine, is after a while your body stops excreting it. So, it's just not very useful. It's useful at the beginning when you're going into ketosis, but it's not useful long term.

So, with acetone, it's really interesting because it's not a fuel in the way that beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate are. It's a by-product of producing and utilizing those fuels. So, it's sort of an off gas of making and using those ketones. So, it's always an issue for me when I'm measuring my blood ketones, I was like, well, this tells me a snapshot of what my ketone level is right now in my blood. But I have no idea how much my body made. I have no idea how much my tissues took, how much they used. You're getting sort of a picture of what's left over, what's circulating.

So with breath acetone, I always thought it would be a great additional measure to have or sometimes maybe a replacement as sort of a proxy for what's happening in terms of the production and the utilization side. And just like adding in that other metric that could say, well, it could quantify it a little bit more for you. So, when you are in ketosis, you are in ketogenesis you're at the highest rate of fat burning. So, if your body is producing these blood ketones and acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate, some of that is spontaneously being degraded to acetone, and it's this tiny, tiny particle that diffuses through your lungs. So, you can get a measure or a picture of how much acetone is my body diffusing through my lungs. So, how much of this byproduct am I diffusing at any time?

So, the other great thing about it is you don't have to prick your finger, which is not the most pleasant thing to be doing or the most practical thing to do. You don't have to buy expensive test strips. You just invest in one device. You breathe into it for 5 to 6 seconds and it'll give you a reading, but it'll also give you little bit of context. So, I also added in like light fat burning or fat burning zone so people know a little bit of context in terms of what's going on. And you can do it an unlimited amount of time. So, you don't have to keep buying those test strips, which for anyone who wants to test their blood ketones, like once a day for a year, it can be anywhere from like $360 to $700 to do that. So, what's super interesting is Dr. Dom D’Agostino also found that breath acetone is very highly correlated with things like latency to seizure and a lot of the things that are associated with the benefits of ketone. So, there're a lot of benefits to measuring it, to knowing it.

In some cases, it can be a replacement for other testing devices, but for the most part it can give you maybe some additional feedback, some additional insight into what your rate of fat burning is, what your body is doing with those ketones. So, for me, it was just such an amazing, satisfying experience because I pictured it in my head. I knew I wanted it to involve breath. I knew I wanted it to be feminine and girly because there're so many biohacking products on the market that I think are designed and created for men because there're a lot of biohacking men out there. So, I wanted to create something girly, feminine, something that's like lipstick, it's compact, you can take it with you in your purse easily. You can take it out when you're on the go and you don't have to go into another room to prick your finger.

It just makes it easy and it's aesthetically pleasing. It's pretty, it's girly, it's feminine. I also have more masculine versions of it, the black and gold, but the black and rose gold and the white and gold and pink are very feminine, and I think they're beautiful. So, for me to have that vision of what it would look like and then take it through to designing a prototype, creating that, hiring various people to do that with me, and then finding a factory to make it, testing at different factories in terms of what they could do. And it's a really exciting space to be in because there's a lot of research that has been done on, like, blood ketones, acetoacetate. There's a lot of research that's ongoing and forthcoming about acetone. And I think it's a great sort of way to quantify what's going on with you when you're doing different types of intermittent fasting.

And that's something I'm really excited to talk to you about on the podcast, in general, is just like what are tools and ways that you can use to see what should my ideal fasting window and eating window be? Because there're different approaches that you can use and different strategies. And if there're ways that you can quantify which one is working the best for you, then that's a cool way to put that experimentation into context and get some parameters or some feedback on that.

Melanie Avalon: So, I was just thinking, Vanessa, because I know we're running out of time on today's episode, I was thinking about how I have so many more questions about this and then I just got hit with this wave of gratitude because we have so many episodes upcoming to talk about all of this.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, my gosh, you're right.

Melanie Avalon: And it's literally like the content of this show. Like, it's what listeners want to hear about. I'm just so grateful. So, my point is, I have a lot of follow-up questions to what you just said and I'm going to save all of them for a future episode. But in the meantime, how can listeners get your Tone Device?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, if you go to ketogenicgirl.com, you can check out there's like I mentioned the three different color variations. And I also have all the Tone Lux red light therapy panels there as well. And also links in my profile if you're on Instagram @ketogenicgirl, if you're on any of the accounts for that like Tone Device or the Tone Lux or the Optimal Protein Podcast, you can find the link in the profile there.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. So, for listeners, we will put links to that in the show notes and these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode316. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And yeah, first one in the books. I'm just so happy.

Vanessa Spina: I'm so happy too. I had so much fun this last hour with you. It felt like five minutes and I'm so excited for what's to come. I can't wait to be with listeners every week.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm just so excited. So, resources for listeners, links I gave the show notes. If listeners would like to submit their questions to the show because most listeners have probably been with us, but if you're new welcome today. Normally this is a listener Q&A format, so we answer listener questions. So, to submit your questions, you can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there or you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. 

Oh, oh, important announcement, to welcome Vanessa because we really want to welcome her to the show, we're doing an incentive for that. So, if you go to Apple Podcasts and write a review of the show or if you already have a review of the show up, no worries, you can update that review. Just include in the review, especially after hearing this episode, what you're excited to experience or learn with Vanessa and then send a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com and you will be entered to win over $500 worth of beauty counter products, which is incredible.

You guys know that I'm obsessed with beauty counter and last night I was literally-- I'm sending Vanessa like all these beauty counter products. I'm going to get her obsessed as well. So, definitely enter that. And I think that's all the things. Oh yeah, Instagram, you can follow us @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. What is your handle on Instagram?

Vanessa Spina: It is @ketogenicgirl.

Melanie Avalon: Perfect, @ketogenicgirl. So, okay, anything from you before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I just want to thank all the listeners for being here. This is such a massive honor to be joining you all and I'm just so excited to chat geek out about all of these favorite topics of ours.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. I'm really excited about the first listener question episode next week.

Vanessa Spina: Yay, me too.

Melanie Avalon: It's going to be so fun. Okay, well, I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Talk to you next week, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

 

 

Apr 30

Episode 315: The Oldest Cure In The World, The Fascinating Fasting History, The Subjugation Of Women, Religious Fasting, Bernarr Macfadden & The Body Beautiful, Starving Cancer Cells, Fasting Clinics, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

AVALONX Magnesium 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

3:50 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting

10:05 - The Research That Went Into The Book

13:00 - Steve's Personal Story

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #87 - Dr. Alan Goldhamer

18:00 - Dr. Henry Tanner, The Father Of Fasting

25:55 - Why Don't Doctors Believe In The Power Of Fasting?

31:20 - Heroic Medicine

35:15 - Historical Theories About Endogenous Energy Sources During Fasting

37:30 - Why Didn't People Notice It Was Fat That Was Being Burnt For Energy?

39:30 - Fasting In Greek History

45:45 - Fasting In Religion

49:10 - Women Taking On The Role Of Fasting 

55:10 - catherine of siena

54:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

55:00 - The Oppression Of Women Through Diet Control

1:00:45 - Jainism

1:04:50 - The Loss Of Fasting In Christianity And The Creation Of Lent

1:12:15 - Bernarr Macfadden

1:19:00 - Upton Sinclair

1:26:10 - The Dismissal Of Fasting In  Fasting In Modern Medicine

1:28:20 - "Tricking" People Into Fasting

1:30:05 - Valter Longo And Fasting Mimicking Diet

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

1:35:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8 - Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

1:39:20 - Fasting Clinics

1:42:05 - Alan Goldhamer's Data On Blood Pressure 

1:46:30 - Steve's Experience At The Clinic

1:49:40 - The Future Of Fasting

1:53:15 - Steve's Fasting Practices

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 315 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the TONE breath ketone analyzer and Tone LUX red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanievalon.com and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. Pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. 

Hi friends. Have you ever felt ashamed or guilty when you eat certain foods. These are likely the, “forbidden foods” that you can't touch and you stay away from them. We are constantly faced with societal pressure and judgment around what we eat and how we look. So, we often feel guilty when we eat something that we think is bad for us. Instead of falling for this, we need to shift our focus to thoughtful nourishment where we are giving our body what it needs. You guys know we are obsessed with continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. NutriSense can help you identify which foods are good for you and what you should eat less of. They provide continuous glucose monitors, which track your glucose levels in real time. So basically, you're able to see, “Okay, I just ate this, and this is what happened to my blood sugar.” Once you're able to see the real impact of certain foods on your body, you can start making better food choices guilt free. 

The CGM is an objective tool through which you can see how your body reacts to different food. This is so important, not subjective, objective, and to make sense of all the data, because it can be a lot. NutriSense pairs you with an expert dietitian who will help you with personalized diet and lifestyle changes that are based on what works best for you. You just might be surprised to find that something you used to feel guilty about does not trigger blood sugar spikes after all. You can actually enjoy it in moderation. Maybe you don't need to avoid certain foods or feel guilty about it. Just sign up for the NutriSense program and start making correct food choices today. 

Curious how it works? A continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is so easy, so painless. Check out my Instagram, I post videos all the time of putting it on. Then there's the NutriSense app, with that you can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiments, and so much more. And then, of course, you get that expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month of free dietitian support. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They'll guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs. I get so much feedback about how people love this aspect of the program. It's really personalized and it really helps you make sense of everything. 

Go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That is nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. I will put all this information in the show notes. 

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it.

So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a super special episode today. This is going to be a little bit different from our normal show. I interviewed Steve Hendricks on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast. He is the author of an incredible book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. Friends, that book blew my mind when I was reading it. I was just like, anybody who's even remotely interested in fasting or even if you're not, needs to read this book because it is that fascinating. So, when I aired it on that other show, I immediately knew I needed to air it on this show as well. 

We talk about so many things, like the role of fasting in historical cultures. Did the Greeks actually fast? We talk about fraud in fasting. Yes, that is a real thing. We talk about how fasting might have actually been used to control women historically in the Christian church. That's interesting. We talk about Valter Longo and the fasting mimicking diet, Dr. Alan Goldhamer and TrueNorth Health Center. We talk about some pretty crazy, more modern people in fasting. Really just be prepared to have your mind blown when it comes to all things fasting. So, I really hope you guys enjoy this episode. 

This is also serving as a transition episode between co-hosts. So, Cynthia Thurlow has been the co-host of this show for about the past year and we talked about this in episodes leading up to this, but she is actually leaving the show. And so, next week we have our new co-host, Vanessa Spina, also known as Ketogenic Girl and host of the Optimal Protein Podcast. Friends, you are going to love her. I am so excited about this. So, get excited for that. Take this moment as a sort of intermission and definitely let me know what you guys think.

By the way, if you enjoy this show, you'll probably really like my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast, because it's basically like this show. I interview so many people, the world's top doctors, authors, and researchers on all things health and wellness. We're talking physical health and diet and exercise and mental health and wellness. I bring on people from all different perspectives. So, the best of the best in the keto and carnivore sphere, the best of the best in the vegan world. I've interviews with companies for products that you guys love. So, Joovv, red light therapy, Dry Farm Wines, NutriSense CGM, Tim Spector with the ZOE program. Of course, I've also interviewed figures that you guys hear a lot about, like Valter Longo, Jason Fung, Megan Ramos, so many things. So, definitely check out that show. In the meantime, enjoy this fabulous conversation with Steve Hendricks. 

Steve, thank you so much for your time and thank you for being here. 

Steve Hendricks: Oh, it's great to be with you, Melanie. I hope I can live up to that fantastic and very kind introduction. Thanks a million.

Melanie Avalon: I have so many questions for you. I want to hear your personal story, but just a question to start off because I'm so curious. I mean, this book is like a textbook and it's like all of this history. How do you find all of this information? Do you look at Wikipedia? Where does one go to collect all of this information? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the difficulty is that it's not in any one place, but that's of course, what makes I think the book very valuable. What I wanted it to be was to be both super comprehensive and it sounds like I checked that box for you, which is great. But I also wanted it to be lively. I wanted it to be a more vivid with characters and stories, a very relatable chronicle that people could-- you wouldn't think of a fasting book as a page turner, but that was my aim. My aim was to have the pages just fly by even though there was a lot of information. Now where do you go to find it? The book is sort of divided into three sections that are all sort of intertwined and overlapping. But as you said, it's the history of fasting and the science of fasting and my own experiences with fasting.

So, for the science of fasting, I go exactly where you go, which is reading those scientific studies and interviewing the most prominent researchers who have something interesting to say. The history was the trickier thing because there's so much written about the history of fasting, and unfortunately, a ton of it is wrong. So, you really have to dig pretty deep. And quite often there was an academic at some point will have written a book about fasting for a certain 500-year period in the Middle Ages, okay, awesome, great. So, I've got that period covered. Now what do I do about the other, like 2000 years of history before that and it's a real mix. 

Sometimes I'm reading academics books, sometimes I'm reading their studies. In a few cases, I'm going to the actual Greek or Latin or whatever sources, and I'm trying to find someone on social media who will be kind enough to translate sentences that I'm having trouble figuring out. But most of the time I'm relying on-- I'm a reporter, so I'm reporting on the work of academics. Unfortunately, while there's not as much out there about fasting as we'd like, there is a ton out there if you just uncover all the stones. That's what added up to the book. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm just blown away. I can't even imagine how much you had to read to get to it. I will say so you check the box about the comprehensive history. You definitely check the box, the second one about being lively and creating characters and page turner. There were literally times my mouth dropped open when I read parts about some of these things happening, which we can get into in this show. 

Steve Hendricks: If you could see me blushing now, don't stop, don't stop. 

Melanie Avalon: No, some of the stuff about the females fasting and the religious aspect of all of that. There're so many things. We can circle back to all that. Before that, your personal story, obviously, this is in the book. I'll just say, friends, listeners, we're not even going to remotely touch on everything in this book, so just get it now and you can hear everything. But you do share a lot about your personal fasting experience. So, could you tell listeners a little bit about that? You're a reporter, why did you become interested in fasting? Why are you writing about it now? I know you tried to write about it earlier and things happened with that, so why are you where you are today? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I first started writing about fasting in an article that I published for Harper's Magazine about 10 years ago. That was back in a time where there weren't a lot of people fasting as there are today. And so, it was viewed with a lot of skepticism. I wrote that article because I had come to become fascinated with fasting myself and I had practiced it myself. The center piece of the article was this 20-day fast that I had done. At that time, I was about 40 years old, maybe in my late 30s when I did this. 

I fasted for two reasons, one of which was the one that so many people come to fasting for. I just wanted to lose weight like a lot of people. I had put on a pound or two every year in my 20s and 30s and I'm 5'9" on a good day and I was weighing close to 170 pounds, whereas when I was at my lean in college I'd weigh 140. Partly I just wanted to lose weight. But I'd gotten interested in fasting and learned about fasting in the first place because I also was very interested in fasting for longevity.

I had originally started with caloric restriction, which as most of your listeners probably know, just means sharply limiting how many calories you're getting every day while still getting all your necessary nutrients. The problem with CR - caloric restriction is it is just fiendishly hard to do. It is just impossible. You're walking around hungry all the time and if you're a mere mortal like me, you're not some superhuman person. You just can't stick with caloric restriction. But the irony, well, of course, is that you can get many of the exact same benefits from a prolonged fast as you do in caloric restriction, yet you don't feel hunger. The irony is by doing the most calorically restricting thing of all just simply not eating, your hunger actually gets suppressed and so it becomes a much more doable thing. 

So, this was very appealing to me. So, someone who weighed too much and wanted to weigh less and was curious because I'd read these historic accounts of people who'd done long fasts. I wanted to see what it was like. Now I'll caution and say, knowing what I know now, I would not undertake a 20-day fast on my own without some kind of medical supervision because there are too many things that can go wrong. I'm not telling the audience what to do or what not to do, but I want to caution that fasting doctors have very good reason for saying you don't really want to be doing really long fasts on your own because some things could go wrong. But with that caveat, I did that 20-day fast. It went fantastic. I had a lot of ups and downs that a lot of other people have described when fasting, but ultimately found it to be a very satisfying experience and I lost all the weight that I wanted to lose. 

So, it was fantastic and I wrote this article and I'd like to tell you that in the 10 years since I wrote that article, it's all been a carpet of rose petals in my path, but that has not been the case. We can talk about that, but my health actually deteriorated over the years throughout my 40s, I'm 52 now, and it was eventually fasting and I believe dietary change that have rescued me. 

Melanie Avalon: That was something that I loved was that you've had so many experiences with fasting. Like, for me, I started doing intermittent fasting in college and I did the type I'm still doing today, which is one meal a day, eating at night. I haven't done a long, extended fast like you. I haven't done-- you've tried ADF, you've gone to fasting clinics. I was really thrilled because in the opening of the book, you talk about and throughout the book, Alan Goldhamer, who I've had on the show at TrueNorth and I was super excited to hear your experience there.

So, it's super valuable, I think that you have had experience with all of these different fasts. There's something I wanted to comment on really quickly. I love the distinction that you have between fasting and calorie restriction. For example, you talk in the book about people looking at World War II and starvation and saying, “Well, if fasting has all these health benefits, why did people not get really healthy from starvation in World War II.” And it's the subtle nuance of having just enough calories to not let you actually be fasting. And then they're also malnourished not having enough food so, there's so much complexity, and I'm so happy that you tackle all of it. There're so many directions I want to go with this. You talked about the colorful characters in the history of fasting. I imagine because there were so many different people, why did you settle on Dr. Henry Tanner as the father of modern fasting and why did you choose to open the book with his story and everything that he did? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, great question. So, Henry Tanner was this doctor who was born in the 1830s, say he was a doctor. He was indeed a doctor, but not a medical doctor. He was what was then called an eclectic doctor, which is something like a naturopath today. So, he was an alternative medicine practitioner and somewhere along the way he had picked up fasting, short fasts, a couple of days here, three days there as a useful tool. Well, it turned out in 1877, he had fallen on hard times. He had just lost his wife. He was living in Twin Cities of Minnesota then and he had all kinds of ailments. He had a stomach condition that may have been a stomach flu. He had basically something that sounded like a nervous breakdown. He had heart problems and so on. He decides then that he's going to fast long enough to either cure himself or by one account kill himself and he didn't care what the difference was. 

So, I started with him in part because he's such a quirky character. I'm not very good at remembering my own quotations and so on, but some of the things that he said were just out of left field, but also because he was the first person who in a scientific kind of way-- in a case study, scientific kind of way, sat down and said, “Well, I'm going to fast, and I'm going to see if fasting cures me and see what happens.” And he did it, there had been previous doctors along the way who had been noticing these cures and trying to write about it, but he did it in a way that got the message out to the entire world. What happens is he does this fast. At this time, it was expected-- people thought at this time you could not go longer than 8 to 10 days without food or you would die. 

What Tanner found is when he reached 8 to 10 days, not only had all of his problems started falling away and all of them eventually got cured in the accounts that we have of this fast, but he felt even better, he felt even stronger than he ever had before. And so, he ended up finding out on day 20 something or whatever of his fast, because he just kept going and going because he was curious to see how long this fast could go without his suffering. He would find himself walking 10, 15, 20 miles a day, which is vigorous exercise for 1877. That could be a lot of exercise today. So, he does this fast, he cures himself, he breaks his fast after 41 days, and he had no intention of advertising it, but a friend of his, another doctor who had helped sort of supervise him during his fast, reported it in a medical journal in Chicago. 

It got out to the world and everyone just completely ridiculed him, said, "He must be lying. There's no way that you could fast this long." Through series of other events, he's wanting to prove himself to redeem his name and an opportunity arises for him to go to New York City three years later in 1880, and there to repeat his fast of 40 days on a stage in front of people in New York. He was completely ridiculed at first, but there was this prurient interest in his fast because, oh, my gosh, he's going to fast beyond perhaps 8 to 10 days. What's going to happen? Is he going to die on stage? Interest grew and grew. This was a presidential election year. He was getting more coverage than the presidential contenders. His feat was being recorded all over the world. He went through the 8 to 10 days with no problem and kept fasting for 20 days and then 30, and eventually broke his fast at 40 days. 

What happened with this, unfortunately, when he was in New York, he didn't have anything wrong with him. He wanted to prove that fasting could cure, he didn't have anything to be cured, so it didn't make the splash that he wanted it to make. But because it was reported in every newspaper in the United States and most of the newspapers in Europe and even some in Africa and Asia, he got the message out, the idea out that fasting might just be curative. And from that point on, that's really where we see this more scientific interest in fasting for health taking off in a way that it never had before, because it's fasting and it's counterintuitive and people don't want to do it. It was a very, very slow growth to get from there to where we are today. But without Henry Tanner, we wouldn't be where we are today. 

Melanie Avalon: It sounds like social media, like the first-time fasting was in the eye of the public, and everybody was paying attention. So, on this stage, he literally just sat on the stage? 

Steve Hendricks: It was a very barren stage because they wanted to make sure that there wasn't any hidden food and that no one would sneak food into him. He had a cot and he had a chair, and people could bring him reading material if it had been searched before. It got to the extent that if people were sort of reaching up and shaking a hand with him, they would inspect his hands to make sure that there wasn't food being passed to him, being palmed off to him or something. So, yeah, it was just sitting there and talking with people for 40 days. Newspaper editors sent over teams of reporters to watch him for 24 hours a day. He also had his own sort of core of watchers drawn from medical students and other doctors and so on. But, yeah, it was just sitting there doing nothing but not eating. 

Melanie Avalon: What was the significance of his show off with Dr. Hammond?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so, Dr. Hammond, who was a former surgeon general of the United States, he was part of the occasion that gave Tanner the reason to go to New York to fast, and that's that Dr. Hammond was extremely skeptical of a group of women who were called the fasting maids. These were women who usually actually girls more than women, but young women and girls who had claimed a fasting power. They would claim that they could go months or in some cases even years without eating or with barely eating. And it was completely fraudulent. Not a bit of it was true. He had made it his mission to unmask these fasting maids. He'd even written a book doing his best to unmask them. It happened that there was one in Brooklyn in 1879, 1880, who had claimed to go, “I forget forever, basically, with hardly eating anything.” 

He had challenged her. Her name was Mollie Fancher to fast in public under the watchful eye of doctors round the clock. She said no, she could not be examined by male doctors. Her feminine honor would have been impugned and so on. That was the point at which Henry Tanner in Minneapolis, because all this was being reported in the newspapers around the country, Henry Tanner said, “Well, I'll come to New York and I will fast in her place.” 

Melanie Avalon: Hmm, got you. 

Steve Hendricks: I'm sorry you asked, so, what became of the standoff? Well, eventually, Hammond had to admit that people could, in fact, go longer than he had ever expected without food. He still, of course, rightly, thought that the fasting maids were a croc, but he had to revamp and revisit his ideas about just how people could survive in the absence of calories. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Something I liked about that, like I called it a show off was. It felt like an analogy for a theme throughout the history of fasting with conventional medicine. People positing this other idea of fasting because it seemed like you're talking about how Hammond was a very respected conventional doctor and Tanner was of a different, I don't know what the word would be like woo-woo or alternative. So, it seems like that was a theme throughout, especially later in the fasting history, I think, there were so many forces against fasting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, emphatically so, conventional doctors have always had a hard time accepting fasting and even today, it's the rare conventional doctor who will look at the science. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, yeah. Why do you think if you had to pick one, well, you don't have to pick one, but if you had to why do you think that is? 

Steve Hendricks: Sure. No, that's a great question. That's one I've been wrestling with for about 15 years. I think the biggest reason is simply this. Fasting is premised on the idea that the body can heal itself. If we get out of its way, it knows what to do. Now, it's not a cure all. I'm not saying it's going to fix every single disease, but my goodness, it can reverse cardiovascular disease and arthritis and diabetes and even one form of cancer, at least. I could go down a list of 50 diseases that we have good evidence that fasting, prolonged fasting in particular, can reverse. That is not something that doctors have been very good at hearing. 

Certainly, and I make this case throughout history, there was a period, even in the early 19th century, where the form of medicine that was most widely practiced by conventional doctors was called heroic medicine and it was horrible. The whole premise of it was, the doctor is going to be the hero. He's going to come in and save the day, and he's going to do this by bleeding the patient of-- leaders of his blood, of making him vomit, of making her have diarrhea with a purgative, of blistering the skin and all this that we're going to just whip the disease out of people, and it undoubtedly killed more people than it helped. 

But that mentality, of course, doctors aren't doing that badly today, but they still have this mentality that disease is something that we have to conquer with technology, with our know how, with our fancy medical degrees and all the stuff that we've learned in medical school and our residencies and so on, and letting that go and saying, “You know what?” If you just back off and monitor these people, make sure they stay healthy while they do their fasting, their bodies can actually do the healing without you. It's that without you part that's very threatening to conventional doctors. I'll just close this little sermon by saying, “Look, I've gotten a lot of benefit out of Western medicine. I think conventional medicine has a lot of amazing points to it.” So, I'm not trying to condemn all of conventional medicine. It has saved me more than once. However, this is an enormous oversight and I think that's where doctors fall down. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad you brought up the heroic medicine. I was saying in the beginning how I'd have moments where my jaw dropped open hearing the things that people would go through with that. I just kept asking myself, “Why did people let these doctors do this to them?” To that question, was it a cultural zeitgeist of just believing the system that these things were helping? Was it ironically enough, the fact that because the body can heal itself that if people survived the heroic medicine and then the body healed themselves, then they would just credit the heroic medicine? How did this go on for so long? And relatively recently, if you think about it wasn't that long ago that this was happening relative to humanity. 

Steve Hendricks: True. Some iterations of this were continuing into the 20th century, for sure. It's some of all of what you say. So, yes, every time you tortured someone [laughs] who was sick and that person didn't die, well, gosh, if you were the doctor, you could claim that your heroic medicine saved them. And so, in the absence of the scientific method existed, but it was really rudimentary back then, and in the absence of any real science, it was just impossible for people to prove. You could discount it. You could say, oh, I doubt that, or something, but you couldn't prove that the heroic medicine had been more harmful than helpful. But I think the other piece of it that you hit on as well is it is an extremely counterintuitive thing for all people, not just doctors, to accept that if we leave our body alone, it wants to heal itself. 

So, you find these accounts when you go back and look through the history of medicine, of doesn't matter where it is. It could be the US, it could be Germany, France, Russia, you find these accounts from 100, 200, 500 years ago where a doctor writes something along the lines of, “It seems that if I leave my patients alone, some of them actually do better than when I give them the medicines.” That was emphatically true back then, the medicines of the day were almost all quackery, unless, by luck, they happened onto some herbal remedy of some kind. They seem to get better. But here's the problem. When a patient is sick, they call me to their bedside and what they want is a cure. They want a pill. They want a potion. It's very much like today. They don't want to hear, “Go home and don't eat for three days and see if that makes your fever better.” 

It's an extremely hard thing for people to hear and you can understand why. I mean, when you have all the science, it just seems ridiculous, like you want to just shake these people. But in the absence of the science, what people are left with are their own impressions. Well, what do we feel like when we don't eat well? We feel weak. Our minds quite often slow down. We're not able quite often to do the same amount of work as we did before. Everything in our own experience tells us that not eating does not make us feel better. I think when a doctor comes along and says try this, it's an extremely hard thing to accept on both sides of that picture, both for the skeptical doctors who doubt this remedy and for patients who are equally skeptical throughout history. 

Melanie Avalon: Chronologically, it's hard prescribing fasting for all the reasons that you just mentioned, and then retroactively, if the person does heal, there are so many examples in the book where fasting won't even be credited. You talk about the woman at TrueNorth Health Clinic and her spontaneous remission. They wouldn't say it was the fasting that did it, it was just spontaneous remission. Or you talked about, I think, a study looking at or I don't know if it was a study, but it was something looking at keto versus fasting-mimicking diet and fasting for epilepsy. And they didn't credit the fasting. They credit the diet aspects. So, even when fasting does work, it's like we can't give it the credit for what it did. 

But another thought that this made me think of was there were so many moments in the book where it was things I just took for granted that it had never occurred to me that people historically were not aware or saw things completely differently. So, for example, the idea that what we burn when we're fasting, could you talk a little bit about theories that people had about what we were running off of energy wise? 

Steve Hendricks: Isn't that incredible? We all know that we run on our fat, at least for most of the time. Yeah, we burn a little bit of protein and so on, but it's basically our fat. But no, people didn't know that, even as late as Henry Tanner's day. So, again, we're talking 1880. There were scientific journals about, there were scientific studies of nutrition and body composition and things like this. People debated endlessly what he was surviving on. Some of the theories were that the water that he was drinking had what were called animalcule, which was just these fancy word for just tiny, tiny organisms in his water, and that his body was surviving off of digesting those organisms. Other people believed that the air contained nutrients and the more people who were around then the more nutrients were being-- In theory, the nutrients were expelled by people who were breathing them out of their bodies, and then other people could breathe them in.

If you weren't eating, you could be nourished by breathing in these nutrients. There was one person who accused Henry Tanner of doing this fast in New York, because there were millions of people there. So, far more people breathing into the air. Other people would claim, of course, fasting has mostly throughout history been used for religious purposes, so people would claim divine assistance of some kind. That was, of course, the mechanism was never stated, but basically you didn't need to eat because your stomach was filled by the Holy Ghost or Jesus or whoever it was you were crediting that to. So, yeah, it was a quite a while, really, until the 20th century before people were-- science had settled the question of what do you burn when you're not eating, you burn your fat.

Melanie Avalon: I think one of the other ones was like, women burning their menstrual cycle or living off of that. 

Steve Hendricks: Oh, right. [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Crazy. Do you think if we had had the obesity epidemic earlier so if people were overweight-- When people lose weight from fasting or calorie restriction today, people can lose a lot of weight, and you can clearly tell something left their body, so it seems more obvious that you burned something away. But do you think because people weren't-- we didn't have obesity to the extent that we did today, it wasn't as noticeable that people were losing fat? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's quite probable. Another piece of it is, in order to lose a whole bunch of fat, you have to fast for a very long time. Although fasting has been around for a very long time throughout most of history, most people when they fasted were fasting for only a few days. There were a few people who fasted weeks or months, but they were very, very rare. So, even if you were obese, let's say you're my height, 5'9", you weighed 300 pounds, you fast for three days, you're not going to notice any fat loss. It's going to be very, very subtle. So, I think that was a piece of and that also changed after Tanner's fast. Once people realized in the late 19th century. "Oh, my gosh, you can fast 40 days and survive." Then you got people who were doctors, who were occasionally fasting patients as long as 50, 60, 75 days. And then, of course, it would have been extremely noticeable at that point whether the person was overweight or not, that they were losing their fat. But that didn't happen throughout most of history. So, that's probably a piece of it. 

Melanie Avalon: And so, you touched on this little bit just now with the types of fast that people were doing. You touched on it in the beginning about what was or was not true. So, something that really blew me away was, I think, for most people, if they think about the history of fasting and what they think they know about it, there's just this idea, like with the Greeks, for example, we think Hippocrates was all about "Let food be thy medicine." I guess we can question if he even said that. But there is this idea that, “Oh, the old ancient people knew what they were doing, and the Greeks were fasting.” And were the Greeks really fasting? What was happening there? What was the role of fraud in the history of fasting? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I first started fasting, I was greatly relieved to hear that fasting was this ancient practice. If you're into fasting, you've all seen these quotes. Supposedly Plato had written, “I fast for greater physical and mental efficiency.” Plutarch said, “Instead of medicine, fast a day.” Hippocrates said, “To eat when you are sick is to feed your sickness.” There are all these quotations and stories out there and it turned out on examining them, one or two of which I had even related myself from what seemed like reliable sources when I first wrote about fasting a decade ago. When I dug deeper and really looked at the sources, it turns out, no. Almost none of that. All those quotations I just said, all bogus, every one of them. 

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. And they're repeated, I mean, some of them were created pretty recently, within the last few decades. Some of them, there's a story about Pythagoras who was said to have fasted, was made to fast, before he became a student in Egypt for 40 days. Didn't like it, but he did it, fell in love with it, and made all of his students fast for 40 days as well, before they started studying with him. Well, it turns out that's not true. It wasn't something that was developed yesterday. That was developed by people who were trying to glorify Pythagoras and associate him through the 40-day fast with the 40-day fasting of Elijah and Moses and whoever else. So, anyway, these stories are told for various reasons, but the reason they persist today is because they are extremely comforting to people who are doing this weird thing that, until very recently, no one else was doing. They provide this kind of sense of, “Oh, you are part of this long worthy tradition with these noble people who came up with mathematical theorems and so on. So, it must be a good thing.” 

In fact, the truth is, while it's true that we owe probably the first really deep signs anyway of therapeutic fasting to the ancient Greeks and to people around the time of Hippocrates, they had no idea what to do with it. The reason they had and they had no idea what to do with just about anything to do with medicine. The reason is because there was a taboo on dissecting bodies. You couldn't look inside the body, you couldn't see what was going on, so, they made up these cockamamie theories. The one that eventually won out was called humoralism. It held that if you keep your body's four humors in balance, those were black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. So, they believed if you kept them in balance, then you would be healthy. When they got out of balance, then you would be unhealthy. That's why you get to such things as bleeding people, is that's to try to get their blood amount back in balance. Well, it was all completely nonsense, but all of medicine was based on that. 

The few things that have come out about fasting from this time are just useless, almost all of them. So, for instance, a writer in the Hip-- I should say, we don't know if Hippocrates wrote any of the works that are ascribed to him. There are about 60 works in the Hippocratic corpus. They were probably mostly written by family disciples, whatever, some by impostors. But anyway, within the Hippocratic corpus, one of these Hippocratic writers will say something like, “When you have hiccups or you have muscle spasms, you should either fast or overeat.” And it's like, “Well, which one?” Those are opposites. It was full of this kind of nonsensical stuff. 

Now, all that being said, the Greeks did because they were open to fasting and because their big contribution, big contribution that Hippocrates and his colleagues made was that previously medicine was just seen as something that happened by divine fate or something. They said, “No, there are actual causes to diseases. We can learn to understand what those are, and sometimes we may be able to treat them.” Now, the fact that their treatments ended up being wacky doesn't discredit this enormous advance they gave us. And because of that advance, people over the centuries started experimenting with fasting. Eventually they got around to just through random chance practically stumbling on some things that did seem to work here and there. They weren't very prominent, they didn't last super long, but you could see these kinds of bubbling up of fasting intelligence over the years. 

One of the reasons I went into kind of what you're calling them fasting fraud of these ancient quotations and stories and so on is because I just don't think that they're so widespread, they're everywhere, they're unfortunately, every health website and anyone who talks about fasting usually resorts to one or two of them. What you find is I don't think that helps us. What helps us is not sort of covering ancient fasting in a glory that it doesn't deserve, but actually understanding where fasting came from, being humble about what things we did know and didn't know when as a species and therefore treating fasting with a lot more care, I hope. 

Melanie Avalon: I feel like now I need to go through all my blogs and my book and my podcast. I'm sure I've been sharing some of this misinformation. This is just a random tangent. The thing you were saying about how the cure for what was it for hiccups was either to fast or to overeat. I actually was reading a study about fasting the other day. I was researching fasting's effect on pain because of a listener question for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I found a really interesting study, and it was all about how both fasting and eating can relieve pain. Super random tangent. [laughs] So, maybe there was something with the hiccups, I don't know. 

Steve Hendricks: Right. I mean, well, there could have been something there. Had there been a more scientific way of parsing through the various evidence, something might have grown out of that, but they just didn't have that at the time. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. You mentioned it in the book, but when we're looking at these quotes, how do we figure out that these sentences weren't uttered by these people? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so the first clue is, if someone's not offering a citation, don't trust them. [laughs] They may well be right, of course, not everything has citations. But the simple thing to do is to go and look, to see who is making those quotations with citations and then just keep following them back like you'll find that I don't know that this quotation say, “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food,” from Hippocrates, which you see everywhere and no Hippocratic writer ever wrote that. What happens is if you start chasing it back, one article will cite another article, which will cite another article, and often this is in the scholarly literature, but no one will be citing an ancient Greek source. Once you get back to the very earliest one of these, that's maybe in 1910 or maybe it's in 1842 or whatever, and you found that on Google Books or somewhere like that, if you go as far back as you can and there's nothing more beyond that, [laughs] then you have to conclude that it's probably made up. You can check some of these by, if you want, emailing your favorite, I don't know, Hippocrates scholar and saying this quotation seems to be completely bogus. Are you familiar with this in any of the Hippocratic writings, nope. They'll usually be able to help you out in such a straight.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's so interesting. It speaks to a broader problem of that just happening in general, I imagine, in the scientific literature, because all it takes is some idea to slip into some journal somewhere, and then that's quoted, and then that’s quoted and then we're lost with it. I know that happened with, I think with the quote about how many top soils generations we have left. I know there was something about that. Like somebody said a quote about that at some conference without a citation, and then it made its way into some literature, and then it just kept getting quoted. But I imagine it happens with a lot of things. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Once it makes it into an academic publication, whether it's a peer reviewed scientific journal or a book by an academic, forget it. Then everyone in the world will cite it, and it's just a lost cause. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, you mentioned 40 days a lot and I think probably a lot of people when they think of 40-day fast, they might think of Jesus' 40-day fasts. I was super fascinated by the history of fasting in different religions. Okay, so to start, here's a quote people will say all the time, they'll say that, “Fasting appears in every major religion.” Does it appear in every major religion? 

Steve Hendricks: It appears in almost every major religion. Now, you could split hairs over what's a major religion, but yes, in virtually every major religion. The one exception is Zoroastrianism, which is in Persia, modern day Iran, Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism. Almost all religions experimented, and some wildly adopted some form of asceticism just being really savage to your body. One form that was available to everyone was fasting. 

So, every religion, practically, certainly every major religion that has evolved has had to wrestle with what is the place for asceticism in our religion. Zoroaster, after experimenting with it, eventually decided that it was extremely harmful. He thought that fasting in particular would leave you too weak to farm, too weak to create productive and strong offspring. He chose a kind of more hedonistic almost view of the world and said, “No, we're not going to fast.” What's curious about this is that it's basically, as I say, a slightly hedonistic religion telling people that this is not a sin and that is not a sin, and you can do a bunch of things that these other religions won't. 

Well, today Zoroastrianism has 200,000 followers, and that's it in the entire world. Meanwhile, the religion, it mostly lost out to is Islam, which in some forms is very strict about what you can and can't do. And there are a billion Muslims. So, I don't know what the heck that says about human psychology, but that's a long way of saying that with the exception of Zoroastrianism, virtually all other religions, certainly the religions most of us have heard of had some place for fasting, but it varied enormously. Some places, some religions, it was a very small role. In other religions, it practically took over the whole religion. 

Melanie Avalon: In Hinduism, because I think that was one of the first religions you talked about that was primarily for enlightenment, was the purpose of fasting? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, the idea was that if you could eliminate desire, you could reach nirvana. So, they would do all kinds of ascetic practices. They would deny themselves sleep, shelter, clothing, family. This is the first time you really get into really ascetic monks who are doing an almost athletic like training for the soul. One of the ways was fasting, this idea that it was a way of renouncing desire, which Hinduism at that time certainly saw as a holy path. Early Hinduism is one place where fasting just grew and grew and grew. And you can see how it happens. If a little bit of fasting makes you holy, then a whole lot of fasting--

Melanie Avalon: Really holy.

Steve Hendricks: Exactly and that's exactly what happens. So, you eventually get to a point where there are Hindu calendars in ancient Hinduism that have 140 days of the year set aside for fasting. The sad part of it is, eventually the men who ran the religion decided that the people most in need of fasting were women. So, the fasting burden fell very heavily on women, very lightly on men. It took a reaction many years later to sort of tamp that down. But even today, if you speak to Hindu families and say, “Who in your family fasts?” You are much more likely to find women who fast than men do. And this is not an uncommon theme. This is exactly what happened in Christianity as well. 

Melanie Avalon: No. So, I think this was my favorite theme [chuckles] in the book. I was blown away by how often it occurred and what happened when it occurred. So, even with the Greeks, I think you said that when there was fasting, it was more with women, I don't know, that just never occurred to me. I don't remember which culture or time it was, but there was one example where women could fast because it was the one thing they could do. Like, men would go on vagabond things and they could do all this other stuff, but the only thing women could do was fast. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, during the Middle Ages, fasting really took hold in Christianity probably 100, 200 years or so after the death of Jesus, who didn't have much at all to say about fasting. Like most Jews who fasted him, he surely fasted, but he didn't have much to do with it. Early Christians didn't have much to do with it. But eventually Christians decided that the church fathers who ran Christianity at the time, that fasting could basically be used to subjugate women. The problem was that men were these very holy, devout creatures. But, yeah, they were little bit weak. They were tempted by this temptress woman who God had just put down here to torment male Christians was almost the view. And so, the idea was that you could neutralize female sexuality by getting women to fast. Sexuality was important, because by this time in Christianity, the sexual being had come to be seen as impure and tainting and so on. 

Fasting was supposed to dry up the moist humors. Remember the crazy humoralism we talked about earlier was predominating. Dry up the moist humors in women that were supposed to behind female lust. If you took fasting far enough, it could obliterate womanhood. It could pare the hips, get rid of breasts and buttocks, it could end menstruation. This wasn't supposed to be a punishment, so the church father said anyway, this was supposed to be something to aim for, to make yourself more holy, and your reward would be becoming a bride of Christ. This was quite literally meant some of the creepiest erotic writings of late antiquity.

Melanie Avalon: It's so creepy. 

Steve Hendricks: Isn't it? Are these scenes where Christ is uniting with his virgin brides in the heavenly bridal chamber or something? It's just obscene. It's not to say that every woman in Christianity fasted herself to this near starvation, but that was certainly the ideal that was held out. And so, you find by the time you get to the Middle Ages in the Renaissance, the vast majority of saints who are women in the Catholic hierarchy, who have been sainted, are these fasting saints. They have these very anorexic traits. Some of them literally starve themselves to death. Most of them just starve themselves into illness and probably an early death because of it, though, of course, we can't say for sure. That brings us to what you just referred to. 

Devout Christians were supposed to be practicing some form of asceticism. It didn't have to be as crazy as what the saints were doing and so on, but it needed to be something. Lots of forums were open to men, and one of the biggest ones of the day was called mendicancy, which is just going around homeless from town to town, begging, saying, “I'm a monk, I'm a brother of Christ, please give me food, or whatever." Your penance was to have or not penance, but your sort of duty was to have a life with few possessions and to live on the goodness of others. When women tried that, there were a few who did, the most famous is known as Clare of Assisi. When she tried it, she was told, “Well, this homeless vagabonding is not in keeping with pure womanhood, so get back into your abbey and forget this kind of thing.” And so, what was open to her was the power over her own body? 

So, on the one hand, while it was a very misogynistic, very horrible set of doctrine that were being handed to girls and women throughout Europe of this time. On the other hand, some of them did this kind of reclaiming thing. Well, okay, all you're going to give me is the power over my own body, I'm going to use it to starve my way to heaven, they would basically think. So, you have one theory anyways to how you got so many of these fasting saints. There was just nothing else or very little else left over that they could do that would achieve for them the equivalent amount of holiness as the men were achieving through their asceticism. 

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah. That was such a crazy ironic dichotomy that on the one hand fasting was used to really oppress these women and repress their sexuality and control them. And then on the other hand, it was like the one thing the women could do to assert themselves. [laughs] It's so ironic. My sister came over the other night and I was telling her about the book and about all of this and I was telling her about these saints who actually were probably anorexic and died from that, and then they were canonized as saints. I found the page in the book that you mentioned with those passages of the bride of Christ stuff, and I was like, “You have to read this.” It's just fascinating. You talk about Catherine of Siena, who is one of the probably anorexic saints that died. You can still see her body, like parts of her body at places. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's this creepy thing in Catholicism where they have, in churches and cathedrals, these reliquaries and the relics that are in the reliquaries are often the body parts of saints. So, when a saint would die, sometimes it's a whole body. But people everywhere wanted a little bit of something, so they might chop off a finger and send that to one town, chop off a foot and send that to another town. So, anyway, her body is scattered around Italy. Catherine of Siena was perhaps, no doubt about it, was the greatest, most powerful fasting saint. She had an influence over the popes of the time. She had an influence over various princes and so on and their political dealings. She helped propagate one of the crusades that was happening in her era. 

She died very early, almost certainly because she had weakened herself too much through too much fasting. So, she died in her early 30s. She died in Rome. She was from Siena and someone chopped off her head at some point and brought her head back to Siena. If you go into the Cathedral in Siena, you will see her head still there. You can google it. It's online. It's shocking how well preserved it is, given that we're talking about something kind of forget the dates, but six or seven centuries ago. But yes, it's this creepy thing that is done in a lot of Catholic churches to take these various body parts. 

Melanie Avalon: Because I think we like to think that we're beyond this, but do you think this theme has kind of continued with maybe not as much today with the health at every size movement, but, like, Parisian fashion and runway models. Is that a continuation of that theme? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's a very good question, Melanie. And I'm not sure. I went into such detail about how fasting has been used to oppress women, because food and how much you should and shouldn't eat is, of course, still being used to just ruin women's lives, even if it's in a much more secular way of, say, Paris Fashion Week than a dictum from the Roman Catholic Church. I don't know. I never found a scholarly article or report or something that drew a very clear line and said, this is why we're having trouble today. The parallels to what was going on in the past and what is going on today with women's bodies were strong enough that I just wanted to lay that out there. You're astute to notice that, to ask whether there's a connection. In the book, I don't say and that I don't say because I don't have answer. So, possibly yes, possibly no.

Regardless of whether there's a straight connection, I think we can learn from it. It's not a super sophisticated message here. It's just that women have been screwed over by usually men telling them what the hell to do with their bodies. And I especially wanted to be sensitive to that because I tell you, when I talk about-- I mean, I've been talking about fasting with people for 15 years hands down. The ones who resist it far more. The gender that resists it are women more than men. Well, it definitely has to do with some of these themes. Whether it's directly linked to what happened in history, who knows. I think we need to recognize that and understand it and be sympathetic to it. 

Melanie Avalon: It's such a complex and complicated topic, and you're talking about women being resistant to fasting. I definitely see it, just especially with The Intermittent Fasting Podcast and all the questions we get, because there are a lot of studies on the science of the health benefits of fasting, particularly in women and particularly for hormonal issues, PCOS, a lot of benefits that can be had. There's also a huge concern that women shouldn't be fasting. It's hard to piece out how much of that is from themes we all just talked about societal issues of women and eating or how much it's just that women might tend to over restrict and be too restrictive in diet and lifestyle and fasting. I don't know, it's just a very complex topic, and another reason I love your book so much. I hadn't considered the history of fasting in women at all as a piece in it. So, it's really interesting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I would love it if someone could come up with answer to that question. Hopefully some scholar will turn to that someday. 

Melanie Avalon: Another religion that was super interesting, Jainism. What happens with fasting there and there's suicide fasting?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, it's really something. Jainism probably took fasting to an even greater extreme than Christianity did. So, Jainism, certainly at that time, the belief Jainism, Hinduism, and Buddhism all kind of grew out of the same, they're called Vedic religions in ancient India, and they've interpreted them different ways and often in reaction to each other. Partly because Hinduism, even as crazy as it was with fasting, and Buddhism, which was much more moderate with fasting, because they were both kind of on the slightly more moderate side than Jainism. Jainism reacted by taking fasting to quite an extreme and they took a lot of dogma to extreme. Their main view is that life is either suffering or it's causing suffering. Even grass is alive, so if you walk across the grass, you're causing suffering. The problem with that is that all organisms are composed of karma, which they've conceived of as these sort of literal bits, sort of like atoms. 

Your karma are mostly bad deeds and they keep the soul from soaring to heaven. They literally weigh your soul down so that it can't soar to heaven. Fasting, they decided, burned off bad karma. So, they would take fasting to some very extreme practices. One of them was this year long thing that they called Varsha Thapa which, if I remember it correctly, you eat nothing from sunrise until sunset 36 hours later. Then you eat after sunset. Once you've done that, you start all over again. At sunrise, fast another 36 hours till sunset. Eat a little more, do it again at sunrise. You do this for an entire year, which is just insane. So, they had all these practices, but the one that has gotten the most attention is this suicidal one you referred to. That was called Sallekhana and Sallekhana was simply starvation unto death. The original idea was that if you were as enlightened as you could possibly be, you had nothing more to achieve in this life. You had burned off as much karma as you could. Well, what was the point in continuing to live? If you continue to live, you might just rack up some more bad karma. You might inflict suffering. You could starve yourself to death.

Very, very devout Jains did this. We don't have an idea as to how many people did this over time. We're not talking millions here. We're talking probably well, today we think that there are probably a couple of hundred people a year who are doing this. Now, in modern times, it's been modified somewhat, so you don't have to be near enlightenment and so on. If you have a terminal illness, you've got a terminal diagnosis, there's no hope for you, you can starve yourself to death rather than suffering. 

There are cases in the west, of course, not just in Jainism, where people have done this, not a ton, but a few, who I speak of a writer, Sue Hubbell, who in 2018 got a dementia diagnosis and it was getting worse and worse and worse. And she essentially practiced Sallekhana. She starved herself to death for about 34 days. And so, people report that this is not a completely painless death, but it is much more painless than many other ways to go, and that the pain is very manageable and that all in all, it's kind of a peaceful death. So, who knows. I don't have much else to say in favor of Jainism, but it seems like an interesting thing to consider for those who are terminally ill. 

Melanie Avalon: Jainism, when I was reading about it, literally, it sounds like the definition of you just can't win. You just can't win. [chuckles] Everything you do is not good. How do you think that compares to somebody dying on their deathbed and then they stop eating and that's how they die? That seems to be very common or more common. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. There's quite often in the last stages of death, if you have a cancer or something, then it's just one of these lingering things where you've been dying of the cancer for six months. Quite often, in the last two days, three days, seven days, maybe you'll just lose your appetite and that's your body shutting down and basically preparing for death, as I have had it explained to me anyway. And I think that makes sense. This is a different category of thing, this is-- I have cancer, it's a terminal diagnosis, I could linger for six months and deal with the pain, the medication, the whatever else or I could starve myself to death and be dead in 30 days. In the Sue Hubbell's case, she had dementia. Heck, she was only, I think, in her 60s. She might have lived another 25 years. The difference is it's consciously seizing the opportunity to shorten that period of what for a lot of people would be hell. 

Melanie Avalon: Something I would love to know. I've never thought about this. I'd be super curious because we know of all of the processes that are activated by fasting and cellular renewal and all of the benefits. I wonder when a person is on their deathbed and then they do enter that state where their body is shutting down and they stop eating, I wonder if they still activate all those processes or if it's different. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that would be really interesting to know because the reason that most of us, well, many of us fast is because it initiates all these repair mechanisms. If your body kind of has some inkling, I assume that it's going to die-

Melanie Avalon: Like nose.

Steve Hendricks: -right, [laughs] would it bother with the repairs? I have no idea. I don't think it's ever been studied anywhere. 

Melanie Avalon: It would be a sad and a morbid study. I would be very curious, though. Just before we leave the religious aspect because I think people, especially since Christian is such a large religion, they might have been surprised to hear that fasting wasn't as prominent or as big as a part as maybe we have thought it might have been, especially with Jesus and the 40-day fast and everything. You talk about how-- I think when Jesus talks about fasting, he talks more about doing it in private rather than public. So, like, Lent, what's going on there?

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so that's a really good question. What happened was, after Jesus, we have what we think is a pretty good record of what he probably said. But He didn't lay out how to build an entire society and how to do everything. The church fathers had to come up with a lot of doctrine. Although the early church fathers sort of heeded Jesus-- Jesus had come and basically said all these silly dietary laws and everything else that the Jews are doing, you don't need to mess with that. Like, just, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If you obey that golden rule, then the rest will fall into place. Just don't get bogged down with 3000 laws. So, one of those things that people assumed that he was talking about was don't get bogged down with fasting. In the first century or so after his death, there was not much fasting in Christianity. I mean, some of them had just-- they had been many of them, most of them, probably Jews. Jews fasted, so they'd probably done some fasting and so on. 

But then, what happened was that the church fathers found that they could make fasting into something extremely useful to them. I've discussed the importance of subjugating women in order to keep them in their place and not tempt men. It wasn't all just that. I mean, that was a huge part of what was going on. But there was also, for instance, there came to be an idea that evolved a century or two after Jesus' death that was called the [unintelligible [01:07:58] angelicus, the life of the angels. The idea was that you should try to be on earth as much as you would be when you become angel or a deceased or whatever they thought they would be in Heaven. And angels were obviously incorporeal. They didn't have bodies, so they didn't eat. So, to the extent that you were able to model that here on earth, by not eating, by starving yourself, you could achieve this life of the angels here on earth or as close to it as you could possibly get. So, for reasons like this fasting took on a life of its own and it just grew.

Most people probably heard of the Desert Fathers and Desert Mothers, these monks in antiquity who would go out into the desert and do all these kinds of ascetic feats. One of their ascetic feats was to fast for days or weeks or months. And so, fasting kind of gained a momentum of its own. Remember how I said before that in Hinduism, there were eventually as many as 140 days or something like that of fasting on Hindu calendars. On Christian calendars, it expanded so much that by the Middle Ages and Renaissance, some places in Europe had 220 or 240 days of fasting throughout the year. I mean, it was just overwhelming how it grew to this proportion. So, Lent grew from that just same general expansion. It had eventually been Easter. Easter originally was the holiest day of the Christian calendar. It was also the saddest. It was occasioned for mourning because Christ had been killed, he'd come down to save us, and then there was the joyous resurrection. It ended kind of joyfully, but it was a very mournful period. 

The Church Fathers found that if you wanted to emphasize to people just how mournful they should be, how sober and how contemplative that they should be, you should make them fast. So, Easter got preceded by depending upon where this was enacted a day, maybe two days, eventually maybe three or four days or a week of fasting, which eventually, over time because again, same thing as what we were talking about with the Hindus and the Jains of a little fasting makes you holy, a lot of fasting makes you holier. It eventually grew to this 40-day famine before Easter and it was honored in different ways. 

Some people just sort of famously, as we know today, they just give up one thing. I should say more commonly among the more devout, it was a partial day of fasting each day. So, you might fast until 03:00 PM in the afternoon, have a light meal, maybe a dinner, and then you do it all over again the next day. It wasn't 40 days without food for most people. So that's how Lent grew. It was the way that fasting tended to grow throughout the more primitive parts of human history, which is just this simple idea of, well, gosh, maybe more fasting is even better for us. 

Melanie Avalon: Those fasting days, like you mentioned in Lent, were those the type of fasting days like in Hinduism, when they would have all those days on the calendar? Would they complete fasts or were they just eating lightly? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so for most of those, when I say 220 or 240 days on some of these medieval European calendars, most people observe those by eating lightly. Some people would just observe them by giving up desserts or maybe they would give up meat. So, it was a partial fast for most people. For the most devout people who really honored it, they tended to give up all food until mid-afternoon and then they tended to eat lightly for the rest of the day. One would assume they gorged the next non-fasting day that they had in order to make up the calories, because otherwise they would have been in quite a caloric deficit. But that seems to be what happened. 

Melanie Avalon: Little ADF action going on. 

Steve Hendricks: Right, something like that. 

Melanie Avalon: So, I think when people think back through the history of Christianity, they think of the moment of challenging all of this dogma and doctrines would be with Martin Luther and the Reformation. So, did that affect fasting in any way? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely it did. It probably wasn't as big a deal with Martin Luther as people thought when he nailed his-- well, he probably didn't, another myth of history. Yeah, he didn't nail his thesis to the door of the church, but when he published his thesis, he was upset about fasting. At that time, what had happened was at the same time that there was this one poll of fasting, which was this crazy, over the top, extreme fasting that led to the fasting saints and some of the stuff we've talked about. There was also this other poll in which ordinary people were trying desperately to get out of fasting any way they could because they hated it. So, particularly if it's on the calendar a couple of hundred days a year. 

The church had eventually gotten around to letting the rich buy their way out of fasting by making donations to the church. These were called dispensations and you could buy a dispensation to let you drink milk or eat butter or something during your days when you were supposed to be fasting. There's even one of the Cathedrals in France in Normandy has a Butter Tower. It's called the Butter Tower because this gorgeous Gothic tower was built on the money from the dispensations for laypeople to eat butter during Lent and other fasting days. So, Martin Luther didn't like all that, but he didn't make a huge deal out of it right there and then in his original protests. But he eventually became much more vocal as he was criticizing the pope in Rome and other members of the hierarchy of the church. He eventually went after them for these dispensations. 

Not only were they unfair to people who couldn't afford them, but who were these humans in Rome to be selling off something that was supposedly God's right to tell us to do or not to do? And so, from there in the Reformation, fasting played a pretty large role in getting people to revolt against the church, because fasting was something that was hated. The church was corrupt, it had tons of money, and rich people could get out of it. So, you had a lot of very ordinary people who were very primed by fasting to revolt against the church, which eventually led to the establishment of all these Protestant churches in countries across Europe. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, one of themes I found so interesting is the backlash and the responses surrounding fasting and especially politically or even with the government and things like that. And so, in the US, there were quite a few interesting people. I was wondering if we could talk about Bernarr Macfadden. I was so fascinated by him and what he did and this idea of the cult of the Body Beautiful and everything that happened with him. So, how does he relate to the fasting world? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. Bernarr Macfadden stumbles onto the scene about 20 years after Henry Tanner's fast in 1880. Macfadden was perhaps one of the greatest showmen in America. And I don't mean that literally. Well, he did do some shows on stage, but I mean just sort of as a carnival like media figure. He came along and in 1899 established a journal called Physical Culture, which by the time it was done with its first year, had 100,000 subscribers, which made it one of the biggest subscribed journals in the country and would just keep growing and growing. I think the number between the two world wars was that it sold 50 million copies. What Physical Culture was, was this Body Beautiful magazine. It showed people who exercise, exercise wasn't huge back then and lifted weights, which was even less huge, and he would show them what they could make of their own bodies and that was its power. 

It was like everyone has the power to be as beautiful and handsome as these models, who, not incidentally, he showed wearing next to nothing, sometimes wearing absolutely nothing. With the genitals artfully concealed behind a literal fig leaf or something. And so, he gained this enormous enormous following. He created one publication after another. It was kind of the beginning of this confessional, first person, lurid stories that played fast and loose with the truth form of so-called journalism. Some of his other publications were like, True Detective, True Romance and stuff. Supposedly the stories were true, but of course they weren't. At the height of his powers, with all of his journals and he owned a newspaper or two. He had a circulation of 200 million copies a year in a country that didn't have anywhere near the number of people who we have today, of course. 

He made all kinds of fantastic health claims. Like he had a way of regrowing bald heads, regrowing the hair on the heads. He had a way of one of the most famous was a thing that he called the penis scope, which was this, like, glass tube and a vacuum pump. It was supposed to give these middle-aged men with erectile dysfunctions like firmer erections. I mean, just crazy, quackery, nonsense stuff. But in the midst of all this, he also put out some really useful information about fasting, because he had discovered fasting when he was a child, probably had heard about Tanner's fasts and so on. But he had noticed, working on a farm that farm animals, when they got sick, stopped eating. So, one time when he got pneumonia, he tried it and believed that it had helped him. He did all of these very important things, but very poorly respected things because of who he was to promote fasting. 

He wrote books and there were articles in his magazines about fasting and he supported various fasting doctors and so on. It didn't take because he was such a quack on so many other things that the medical establishment absolutely wanted nothing to do with him, and he just blasted them left, right, and center in his publications. But it had so very little effect. What he did do, however, was to carry forward and not just carry forward, but expand on Henry Tanner's bringing of fasting into the public consciousness because what Macfadden did was he actually showed-- I'm not talking in any scientific way, but he would report cases of people who claimed to have been cured of their diseases by fasting. People who had skin diseases, headache, constipation, kidney diseases, on and on and on. It's a very long list. This sparked the curiosity of a very small number of doctors and scientists and sort of more judicious reporters than he was, who took fasting to the next step. But he's an enormously important transition figure. 

Melanie Avalon: So, fascinating, it just makes you realize you just don't know what's going to have an effect. I'm blown away. You said 200 million copies a year. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: And today, there's only like 300 million, I think, citizens. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, we've got, I don't know, 330 and 340 million people here. So, yeah, these were-- one person might be getting five of his journals. It's not like it was going to 200 million people. That figure was in 1929 right before the Great Depression struck. He went downhill from there. But even as late as oh, I forget what the year was, early 1950s, let's say. There was this famous show, TV show, where you had to guess a famous person based on just a sentence that they read or something like that. I'm forgetting what the name of it was. It was really catchy, but anyway, 30 years after his peak, 20 years at least, he could appear on this TV show without his face showing, just his voice reading one line or whatever it was, and people could guess who he was. He had that much influence over the culture. 

Melanie Avalon: And he started his own religion. 

Steve Hendricks: He did. [laughs] He started it, had to be one of the shortest-lived religions in history. He started something called Cosmotarianism and Cosmotarianism was just a blend of Macfadden health doctrine and kind of some parts he had stolen from Christianity. It must have lasted six months or something. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking of Cosmo, I learned about, I guess Cosmopolitan magazine used to be different than it is today. 

Steve Hendricks: Indeed, it was a serious journal that talked about, I don't know, gosh, the economy or the state of the French Army or what have you. It was not a sex tips and blemish free skin kind of journal. 

Melanie Avalon: There's another theme there that I think we see today, not specifically fasting, but even today, you just don't know what's going to take off, what's going to become popular, even with people who might have celebrity attached to them. You don't know if what they promote will be successful. So, I was super interested to learn that, like, Upton Sinclair, for example, who most people have heard of and are familiar with, that he wrote about fasting. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. He was really the next, I think, most important person after Macfadden. Upton Sinclair is the famous muckraking journalist, who when he was in his late 20s, wrote a book called The Jungle and was about the atrocious treatment of workers in Chicago meat packing plants and also about the completely unsanitary conditions there. But he had a much lesser known side to him and that was that he wrote a book called The Fasting Cure, which grew out of a couple of long articles that he had written for Cosmopolitan magazine back in 1910 and 1911. What Sinclair had a story about, like, a lot of people who come to fasting, which is, “I had all these illnesses. I couldn't shake them. I went to doctor after doctor after doctor.” I mean, he spent gosh, I think, translated into today's money something like $500,000 on doctors and sanitariums and retreats and so on, trying to cure himself of what sounds like a really unshakable fatigue, constantly upset stomach, headaches that would strike him out of nowhere and no one had any cure. 

Then he stumbles on some of this crazy stuff from Bernarr Macfadden and he tries fasting. To make a long story short, it cures him. All of his ailments go away. He is able to write more prolifically than ever, and he says, “Well, I got to tell the world about this. I've got a platform, so let's get the news out.” What he did that was very, very useful. In addition to writing these two articles for Cosmopolitan, he also put out a survey. I think it was at the end of one article and said, “Hey, if you have fasted, if you're reading this, would you please write and tell me whether you had a good response, bad response. Tell me if you were fasting to cure something. Did you cure whatever it was?” So, he did the first really sort of systemic attempt, and he's a layperson. He's not a scientist. He's publishing in something that ordinary people need to be able to read or his publisher will not sell it. 

As good as a layperson could do a very good job of assembling a whole bunch of case studies of people who said, “Yeah, I had a stomach ulcer, I fasted for 35 days, it went away, or, yeah, I had thus and such wrong with my liver or thus and such had a carbuncle on my toe. After a fast of 20 days, it went away.” What he was doing was he was saying, “Look, you don't have to take my word for it.” He provided the names and addresses of these or at least the cities that they lived in, which back then was good enough. He would provide information about these people and just say, “I just want men of science.” They were almost all men back then, of course. “I just want men of science to look at this seriously. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence of all these people, more than 100, 90% of them, who said they got better when they fasted. It surely cannot be that we have all this evidence and scientists will not take a look at it, particularly because at that time medicine could not cure most diseases. It was really still a very impotent form of medicine back then. But of course, as you might have guessed, that did not happen. Scientists generally looked away. Most men of medicine looked away. 

Melanie Avalon: That's something I found so interesting. You talked about how when they really first started studying fasting for longevity, and it was a lot in rodent studies, I think, probably in the 1980s, but I think you made a comment about how there was all this really fascinating research on longevity and telomeres and shrinking organs and nuclei and stuff, but it took so long for people to apply that to humans, like to do human studies. Why do you think that is? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, again, it just goes back to how counterintuitive fasting is. It is just very hard for people to accept that not eating can make you stronger, that it can heal you. If we have it our sort of textbook ideal version of what a scientist or doctor is, as someone who's entirely dispassionate and doesn't have any biases and can look at things completely fresh every time, “That's not what's going on.” Doctors bring their biases. Scientists bring their biases just like the rest of us. Boy, I mean, I'm telling you, it's still a hard sell today, trying to convince doctors about this. In 1950, oh, my gosh even harder. 

To the point where I tell the story of this one study that this pair of scientists, this odd couple of scientists at the University of Chicago does about that time. It's somewhere in the ballpark of 1950. I don't remember the exact year. They find that when they fast rodents, they live vastly longer and they almost completely eliminate, I believe it was breast cancer was the one that they were looking at in these rodents. They had various groups of rodents and I'm saying rodents because I don't remember off the top of my head whether it's mice or rats, but they had various groups.

One, they fasted every other day. The other group, they fasted every second day. Another group, they fasted every third day. Then there was a control group that ate normally. Well, the one that did the best was the one that fasted the most. All right, but it turns out that those mice ended up being much smaller. They didn't grow to full size. Now, we now have the science to know that's because our growth hormones and our growth mechanisms are intricately involved in our longevity markers. You can grow more slowly and be smaller and live longer, or you can grow fully and eat as much as you want and stimulate your growth hormones and not live as long seems to be the message. But they didn't know that then. So, what did they see? They saw, “Well, hey, look, fasting seems to be able-- well, it certainly makes these guys live longer, almost practically eliminates one of the most dreaded forms of cancer.” 

But guess what? There's a problem here. They don't grow to full size. And they could not reconcile that. They could not recommend to people, “Hey, we might have a cure for cancer here or something close to it, but you're not going to be as huge and big and vigorous and so on as you might be.” So, they played down their own finding and played up one of the other lesser fasting groups who fasted less often and got fewer benefits and so on, because you wouldn't be hale and hearty and strapping if you've-- and I'm like, I shoot, I would trade two inches for 20 years of life. [laughs] It's not even a question for me, but it's a very, very difficult thing for people to accept. Again, just another aspect of it being so very counterintuitive. 

Melanie Avalon: It's also similar to this idea about the assumptions that they make on the findings and what people would want or willing or not willing to do. You talk about the role of advances in epilepsy and the keto diet and fasting, and then this recurring theme where basically, I'm going to say they say but they say that it's too hard to fast to address epilepsy. So, it's not even presented as an option to patients or to parents who have kids who are epileptic. They aren't even exposed to this thing that could possibly really help their children because it's just assumed it would be too difficult, which is very, I don't know. It's frustrating. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. You can understand where it stems from. I mean, you have doctors who have a very short amount of time with each patient, and they're supposed to tell them what exactly in their eight minutes of contact with the patient, “Hey, guess what? Your diet is terrible, so you need to completely overhaul your entire diet if you want to live longer.” The few times that they try to do that or you've got eight minutes with a smoker and you're trying to tell them how to quit smoking. That smoker has 25 years of smoking behind her, and she is not going to hear what you have to say in eight minutes. So, they get this impression that's not completely undeserved of. Look, when we give some kind of advice, not all advice, but when we give some advice, it is very hard to get people to follow it. 

It's hard enough when it's like, you could try eating less processed food or you could try stopping smoking, which everyone agrees with. Gosh, if you're telling them something crazy like, “Hey, how about fasting?” [laughs] What are the odds that they're going to be able to adopt it? I think it is true that if you only have a few minutes with a patient, the odds are very, very slim. However, that's the problem of the medical model. It's not a problem with fasting and it's not a problem with patients because there are a lot of patients who, if you said in those seven minutes or whatever, “Hey, I think you should really try fasting, I don't have time to go into it all with you. Here's what I can tell you in five minutes, and here are some books and websites and so on that you can go and look at, podcasts you can listen to,” and that might actually have some kind of effect, but most doctors aren't thinking that way. They're thinking very, very short term.

Melanie Avalon: Something I wish we could do. There's an issue surrounding it because I don't know if it requires deception, maybe it doesn't. I wish there could be a system where there could be a pill that's a placebo pill and it's a fasting pill. And the directions for taking it is you take this pill, but you can't eat a certain amount of time before or after. So then, you can give them the pill, but really you're just forcing them into a fast. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's great. You have hit upon exactly what some of the United States is anyway, earliest fasting doctors came up with in the early 19th century. One of the doctors I write about, Isaac Jennings, who was this doctor in Connecticut, noticed that people seemed to get better when they stopped eating and noticed that they did better than with the so-called medicines that he was giving them, which were just almost completely useless. So, he did that. He tried an experiment where he created bread pills. He just made pills himself out of flour and water, colored them to make them look like the pills that you would buy from the apothecary and so on, gave them to people and said, your instruction is to take this pill, drink nothing but water, and I'll see you in three days. The results were convincing enough to him that he simply stopped prescribing medicines about 98% of the time and simply prescribed these placebos and then eventually felt bad about it and told his patients about it. He thought for sure that they would run him out of town. So, he had set up. 

Melanie Avalon: But they did it, right? 

Steve Hendricks: No, they didn't. They took it really well and he stayed there in Connecticut for another several years and then eventually went off and practiced in Ohio. But, yeah, it seemed to have worked. 

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about Valter Longo and his approach to fasting and his choice to go the fasting mimicking diet route? I think a lot of it probably involves a lot of these reasons and forces at play as to what you can actually do and get funding for and prescribe to people and make actionable. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah. So, I think, Valter Longo, who's a professor scientist at the University of Southern California, I think he's fantastic. He has done some outstanding work. I do have some criticisms which I mentioned in the book, but I understand why he's gone the way he's gone. His big breakthrough, he's had a lot of big breakthroughs. There are people who are pushing him for a Nobel Prize, and he would certainly have my vote if I were on the committee. But one of his big breakthroughs was in fasting for cancer treatment, and he had this terrible experience. What he basically found is that fasting can weaken cancer cells and it can protect healthy cells. So, it weakens the cancer by starving it out of its preferred fuel glucose and shutting down the growth factors that cancer hijacks to spread and divide and increasing the immune cell activity of these cells that go around and zap our cancer cells. 

Meanwhile, the healthy cells bunker down. They go into a protect and repair mode. So, when you give chemo or radiation and you fast people during that, the healthy cells either ignore it or if they get dinged up a little bit, they're great at making repairs. So, in human trials, he found that people had less nausea, less vomiting, less headache, less fatigue if they fasted during their chemotherapy. We know that's for sure in humans and then in mice what he has seen is that the cancer cells that are weakened, more of them are killed by the chemo or the radiation, so more of it dies. And because the healthy cells are protected, you can ratchet up the chemo and the radiation, you can kill more of the cancer. There are human trials going on now to see if that part of killing more cancer is also true in humans. We know that the protecting you from chemo side effects is true in humans. Okay, so I go into all that to say that's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Right. [laughs] 

Steve Hendricks: He has found a way to make chemotherapy less miserable and to make it more potent. So, he takes his findings, which at that point had been in mice, to oncologists at these various hospitals that participate in research studies all over the country and says, “Hey, would you enroll your patients in my fasting trial? Here's what I got. It seems extremely promising,” and it should have taken them about two years to get all the people do the trial, get the data written up and all that. It took them like, five years, and the main reason was because oncologists said no. Many of them just wouldn't take calls from his lab because they thought this was just sheer quackery. They didn't want their patients fasting because patients lose weight on chemotherapy, and so they were afraid that they were going to get too skinny. 

Okay, that makes total sense. What Longo told them was, like, “Look, in my mice and in these human anecdotes that we have, people actually don't lose much weight because they're not as nauseated from the chemo. But even the ones who lose weight, they gain it right back in two or three days when they refeed. This is not a problem.” But oncologists could not hear it, and so Longo decides, “Ah, crap, fasting is just a dead end. I'm not going to spend my whole career beating my head against the wall. I'm going to instead try to see if we can come up with a diet that mimics fasting.” I'm sure you've discussed this on your podcast more than once, but so his fasting-mimicking diet, he actually came up with two.

One for kind of more healthy people to use and one for chemo patients to use. Oncologists have, in fact, proven much more willing to use that. And for that matter, for the healthier people who don't have cancer, but maybe they have prediabetes or high blood pressure or whatever, other doctors have been very excited to do that. They say, “Oh, so we can give our patient a little bit of food and still get most of the benefits of fasting.” Probably not all of them, but most of the benefits, great. So, that's really good. I think that's fantastic. 

Here's the problem. My problem is that in a world where science wasn't controlled by what you can sell and instead was controlled by what's best for the patient, we would have trials that put the fasting-mimicking diet head-to-head against water-only fasting. And we would see which one does best and then people could have a choice. Look, not everyone wants to fast, even when threatened with death from cancer. But if you knew let's just speculate here that if you did the fasting-mimicking diet during your chemo for your cancer, your odds of survival jumped from 3 years to 15 years. If you did water only fasting, they jumped from 3 years to 25 years. Well, you could make an educated choice about what you wanted to do. 

Unfortunately, no one's going to pay for a randomized controlled trial to compare fasting with a fasting-mimicking diet, because you just can't make much money off of fasting. Fasting-mimicking diet is something you can sell. They go for about 200 bucks or so for a five-day package. It's not like a ton of money, but that's money that people, investors can invest in and so, we're getting trials on the fasting-mimicking diet, which are great, but they're not being compared for the most part maybe at all, to fasting, which I think is a real shame. 

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I would hypothesize if they suspected that the fasting-mimicking diet would outperform fasting, that they might.

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. What is their incentive to prove that there might be something better out there than the FMD, right? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Have you done ProLon?

Steve Hendricks: I have not. I've been curious about it, but I have never done it. 

Melanie Avalon: I ordered it. I was going to do it. It was a no go for me. When I'm just doing water fasting, like, not eating, I'm good, but having to eat like a tiny small amount of food, it just makes me ravenous. I think I tried like one day I was like, “no.” 

Steve Hendricks: [laughs] Yeah. People tell me that you get used to it, but yeah, I have wondered the same thing as to what it does for your hunger. Doesn't seem likely to be great. On the other hand, it's only four or five days. 

Melanie Avalon: Have you watched, was it Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Lab on Netflix? 

Steve Hendricks: I have not watched it. 

Melanie Avalon: She has an episode. One episode is with Dr. Valter Longo and she does ProLon. And then one episode-- was it the same episode? I think she also interviews Dr. Alan Goldhamer, I think. So, fasting clinics today, what was your experience at TrueNorth Health Center like? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so TrueNorth in Santa Rosa, California, which is about an hour North of San Francisco, is America's oldest and largest fasting clinic. There are only like three in the entire country. The other two are just kind of sole practitioners or in one case a husband-and-wife team who see a handful of patients a year. At TrueNorth, they've got 70 rooms, they're seeing 1500 people. Inpatient who are coming there to fast or to eat a vastly reduced diet all year long. They have an enormous amount of experience. I will say, as positive and glowing things about Alan Goldhamer as I said about Valter Longo. He has been a pioneer. He, for the longest time, was the only place you could fast under medical supervision in the United States. He kept fasting alive in this country at a time when it probably should have died, but for his persistence. 

Best of all is that unlike previous fasting doctors, Herbert Shelton, who did an awful lot of good, a fasting doctor of the 20th century, the most prominent American fasting doctor until Goldhamer. Shelton was not very scientific and didn't have much interest in having anything to do with science because researchers had so strongly rejected everything that he practiced and preached. So, what Alan Goldhamer said, however, was very early on in his career, he's been fasting people since 1984, I think he's 62 or 63 now. He said, “Look, if fasting is ever to achieve widespread acceptance, we have to put it on a scientific basis.” 

And so, from very early on, he was collecting data from his patients about how they improved on fasting. He eventually, probably about 15 years ago or so, founded a foundation to undertake research on fasting. What he'll tell you is if you go to TrueNorth, he'll say this looks like a fasting clinic. But in fact, what we are is a research center disguised as a fasting clinic. He keeps the rates there extremely low so that he can get people who will come and fast long enough to get well. He has, for the last 20 years been publishing little by little, little more each year, these scientific studies that document and validate some of the reversals of disease that he and his staff have achieved through fasting. 

Melanie Avalon: Doesn't he have the largest documented drop in blood pressure? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, that's truly the-- if you want both a very heartening and very sad snapshot of fasting and science today, it's that. So, yeah, his first study was one that he co-wrote with T. Colin Campbell, who is the author of The China Study, a very respected Cornell nutritional biochemist. What they found in Goldhamer's data-- So, what they did was they took, I believe it was 174 consecutive patients. There was no cherry picking. Every patient who walked in the door at TrueNorth who had high blood pressure and fasted was enrolled in this study. What they found was every single one of those people on high blood pressure, their blood pressure dropped remarkably. All of them were able to go off their high blood pressure medication if they were on it. And those who had the worst high blood pressure did the best. Those in stage 3 hypertension had a drop of 60 points in their systolic pressure. That's the top number 60 overall.

Among all their patients with high blood pressure, the average drop was 37/13 points, which, as you say, is the largest drop ever reported for any therapy in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. Anti-hypertension pill doctors are happy, you get a 10-point drop. These drops of, on average, 37 points, that's just completely off the charts. The need for this is dire because we have gosh, what is it. I think it's 500,000 Americans every year are going to die of at least high blood pressure being one of the contributing causes to their death, and sometimes the cause outright. Half of all Americans get high blood pressure. American adults, and I think it's like three quarters of us by the time we're in our 70s. 

The American Heart Association says still to this day that there's no cure. Yet we have studies going back more than 20 years showing that, in fact, you can completely reverse high blood pressure. One of the great contributions of Alan Goldhamer was-- so scientists have known casually for about the last, oh, I don't know, 80 or 90, maybe 100 years that you could reverse high blood pressure when you fast. However, when people go back to eating, their high blood pressure always went back up. So, it was kind of thought of as a party trick or something. But what Goldhamer did was-- what a bunch of other fasting doctors did, which was just to ask the simple question, “Well, if the disease goes away when we take the food away, was there maybe something in the food that was contributing to the disease?” Like so many other doctors, fasting doctors throughout history, he read the science and experimented with what kept his patients' diseases away. 

He settled on a practically unprocessed, certainly minimally processed vegan diet. It's so unprocessed, he doesn't even use added oil, salt, or sugar. But by doing this, he did something that no previous doctor had ever achieved, which was keeping his patient's high blood pressure away when they went back to eating. So, we have what seems to be a cure for high blood pressure. There have been multiple follow-up studies that Goldhamer has done. The most recent one was done with a researcher at the Mayo Clinic and it was published in a fairly well recognized and prestigious journal. The catch is these studies are not randomized controlled trials. Now, you could conduct a randomized controlled trial, I don't think you'd find anything different. I think you'd find the exact same thing. There's almost nothing in these studies that suggests that these are anything other than legitimate findings, but you can't be 100% certain with something like this unless you do an RCT. 

The problem is those are extremely expensive to conduct. And so, TrueNorth hasn't conducted any randomized controlled trials because they can't afford them. The government's not giving money to people like TrueNorth to do fasting research. Of course, who else is funding it? Big Pharma, big medical device companies, so on. They're not putting forward any money for fasting because they can't make any money off it. So, sadly, although this cure possible, probable I would say cure is out there and known in the scientific literature, it's been almost universally ignored.

Melanie Avalon: It's crazy because not only is it ignored and there's all these forces keeping it from being studied and happening, on top of that, you talk about the issues he's encountered, which people trying to shut him down and the authorities, and that happened a lot historically with a lot of these different people. So, it's just very interesting. How was your experience? How long did you go there for? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, my wife and I, in I believe it was June of 2021, we went there for two weeks. So, when you fast at a fasting clinic, they typically will fast you for however many number of days, and then you need to stay there while you re-feed because your re-feeding needs to be carefully calibrated and supervised. You stay there half the number of days you fasted. I think we fasted nine and a half days and re-fed for four and a half days. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Speaking of that, I love how you hacked the German clinic situation by-- didn't you fast before so that you could get a longer fast there? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I went there in part because I was having some health struggles that I hoped to correct. What almost all fasting doctors have found for the last, let's say, 200 years, is that longer fasts tend to better than a series of shorter fasts. However, if you don't have the time or you don't have the money, because some of these places can be quite expensive, they say, well, the next best thing would be to do a shorter fast. So, actually, before both of those, before I went to TrueNorth and before I went to the Buchinger Wilhelmi Clinic in Germany, fasted for I think it was maybe five days or so on my own water only, and then re-fed for a week or something, and then went to the clinic and fasted there for 9 or 10 days. 

Melanie Avalon: Just speaking of listeners are going to have to get your book and hear your experience, particularly at that German clinic and like with the enemas and colonics and things like that. It's really funny. It's really funny. You tell the story really well, your experience there. So, wow. Well, this has been so amazing for listeners. We only barely touched on everything that is in this book. There's so much more. I will just direct them to the book. Things like we didn't even talk about circadian rhythm and a lot of the studies today and things like that. So, listeners definitely have to check it out. The artwork on the book, why did you choose the leaf? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I didn't choose it, but I did approve it. It was something that the graphic designer came up with. But the reason that it was chosen and the reason that I like it is it's symbolic of fasting. It's a leaf for people who haven't seen the cover. It's a leaf that has, a fall leaf. It's changing colors. So, you have in this fasting, some symbolic kind of almost like dying, where we're not eating, we're not getting nourishment, our body is bunkering down in a way that's not part of our normal go getter active kind of life. But from this comes a rebirth. We don't have the whole tree here and we're not seeing that eventually it's going to grow new leaves having shed this old leaf. But I think that's why the artist chose it and certainly why I like it. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I love it. I knew there was something behind it. It's a beautiful book, by the way. I have it right here in front of me. 

Steve Hendricks: I think they did a very nice job with the design. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's amazing and very substantial [laughs] as listeners have not figured that up by now. So, maybe one last question about everything. This book and this work was the history of fasting up until now. What do you think the future of fasting will look like? 

Steve Hendricks: That's a really good question and I'm not sure. One of the biggest discoveries to me-- I got really deeply interested in fasting. I mentioned coming to fasting to lose weight and so on, but I've stuck with fasting and I'm most interested in it because of its ability to heal, its ability to reverse diseases that we do have and prevent diseases that we don't yet have. What I have found in the couple of months since the book has been out and talking with people is most people just aren't interested in that, which really surprises me. Most people are either-- the two biggest reasons I get are one, I want to lose weight, which is great. Nothing wrong if you have excess weight. You will be healthier and less disease prone if you do not have excess weight. We know that. 

But on the other hand, and the other thing that people tell me is I want to fast in order to be kind of more efficient. I want to be able to be, whatever, a better CEO or a better capitalist in some way so I can go out and crush my opposition or something. But fasting can make you more efficient, it can make the mind in some cases work better and so on. It's not to diminish either of those reasons terribly. But when I try to tell people, are you interested in maybe not getting cancer or something. The interest level drops quite a bit. Going into all this, because I sort of assumed because where the research is going is for this longer-term health. The research is heading in the direction of more disease prevention and more disease reversal. That is, I think, almost certainly where the science is going. It's looking at how can we use fasting to stay healthier, not just lose weight or be mentally tougher or whatever it is. 

However, that's not where I at least so far, I'm finding that a lot of the public are and I'm talking about people who are interested in fasting and are perhaps fasting themselves. This junction between where the science is and where the sort of public mood is, it will be curious to see how that plays out. I kind of hope that the science-- well, I definitely hope that the science sort of pulls more people along and more people learn that, like, “Look, fasting is a long-term health-giving thing and can add years to our life if we do it right.” But whether that will happen, who knows? 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, it kind of speaks to human nature, I think, as humans we focus on what we can experience now. That would be lose the weight, feel the productivity, but we're not so good at looking at the long-term benefits. 

Steve Hendricks: Absolutely. We are very short-term thinkers, it would seem. But what surprised me is, as I say, I got into it for the losing weight thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's fantastic if you have some extra weight you want to shed and so on. What surprises me is that once you're in it for that then trying to say, “Hey, so now that you've done it and seen that it's doable doing this somewhat periodically, whether daily intermittent fasting or whether prolonged multi-day fasting, it could help you.” Yeah, I've yet to see an overwhelming interest in that. Maybe my book will be a small nudge for some people in that direction. 

Melanie Avalon: I mean, longevity science is what I'm obsessed with. I would say I do fasting for the longevity benefits primarily, but it even for me comes back to now. I think I do it now because I want to feel younger now. I think it makes me-- the focus is always on the present, I think. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So how do you practice fasting now? Do you do it daily? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so they're basically speaking two types of fasting. There's the prolonged multi-day fasting, which is mostly what we've talked about, and I do a fast of about one week twice a year. But I think the most important one is actually the daily fasting. And I do, do that. It was not something that I did before doing the research on this book, but I became extremely interested in it. We're probably running out of time here, but I'll just tease your listeners with the surprising thing that the research has found is about daily fasting. I mean, just in the last like three, four years, this is really new stuff. 

One piece of it is not news at all. It's that if we eat in a shorter window each day and we fast for longer each night, we increase the amount of repairs. A lot of people know this. That's why you have these 16:8 eating patterns and so on, where you're eating in an 8-hour window and you're fasting for 16 hours a night or whatever, that's great. What a lot of people don't know is they tend to usually do that by skipping breakfast and then they put all their food in the afternoon and the evening. It turns out that our circadian rhythms have just hardwired us and there is virtually nothing, it seems that we can do to change this. 

We process nutrients far better and we end up being far healthier if our window is in the morning, if our eating window starts an hour or two after we wake up. For a lot of people, where the science is pointed is it seems like the healthiest eating window out there is probably from, let's say 08:00 AM or so to 02:00 PM. And the thing that I always hasten to add after that because that completely freaks people out. I mean, I hated hearing it. I was a late-night eater. I was a breakfast skipper before working on this book. I just thought this was the worst news in the world that I had come across. I've actually found that it's just really not at all difficult for me to do. I have more energy. I would not go back to eating the way that I did before. Now that I'm eating one of these sorts of 8 to 2, 9 to 3 eating windows every day.

But there is a compromise for people who still want to eat dinner. It seems the science seems to be pointing to the fact that if you put most of your calories in the day in that early window, so that means a bigger breakfast, bigger lunch, and then keep dinner light and early, you can probably get most of the same benefits as someone who's eating just entirely within that window. So, it turns out that the adage that was coined in the last century to eat breakfast like a king, lunch like a prince, and dinner like a pauper actually turns out to be pretty good advice. There's a whole chapter on how the science came to this and hopefully I've presented it in a convincing way because I think it's very good science. It's very convincing, it is extremely counterintuitive, but that could be contributing to a lot of our bad health. The fact that so many of us are eating late and eating big late. 

Melanie Avalon: I was really excited to read that chapter, especially because I am haunted by this question. Well, first of all, just my own biases. I gravitate towards eating late at night as like a person, historically, I always have been. I get so many questions from listeners all the time about this, about early versus late eating. And so, a few months ago, it was longer than that. I was like, I'm going to try to just read everything I can read and be as unbiased as I can and see what I think it shows about early versus late night eating. I thought it was going to be hands down. Early eating was the way to go. What I felt looking at everything and I mean, we could talk about this for hours and there're so many studies, but I felt like from what I saw that probably late afternoon to early evening might be the most beneficial window just hormonally if looking at the hormonal profiles. 

But some of my concerns or my things I'm curious about is the role of bias in breakfast eating studies and then the healthy user bias that we've been told for so long that eating breakfast is healthy. It's hard to separate that. So, the people who eat breakfast are probably more often doing healthy lifestyle habits. And then a third piece was the lack-- I wish there were more studies directly comparing because there aren't many. I tried to find as many as I could, but there aren't that many that directly compare an early window to an evening window, both completely fasted and a short window. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I agree with you. There's definitely a shortage of studies out there. And you're right, breakfast skippers, I was a breakfast skipper for 50 years, [laughs] lumping myself in this category, but breakfast skippers tend to be less healthy. I mean, I'm not talking necessarily about people like you and me, Melanie, but I'm talking about alcoholics will skip breakfast because they're sleeping through breakfast. Smokers will skip breakfast because the cigarette suppresses their appetite. People who are overweight and obese and therefore less healthy, by definition are often skipping breakfast because they're trying to lose weight and some of them binge later in the day. And that's all to say. There are all these confounding factors that scientists try to control for, but there's no perfect study out there that controls for all those perfectly and ends up with the conclusion, yeah, breakfast skipping is unhealthy. 

But I try to present what I feel is the preponderance of the evidence that is saying basically breakfast skipping is unhealthy and with enough detail that the reader can make up her mind about that herself. The one thing that I would say is I don't know a single researcher who has looked at these early time restricted feeding windows. So, you're eating whatever from 08:00 AM to 02:00 PM, rather than eating from noon to 06:00 PM or 04:00 PM to 10:00 PM or whatever it is. I don't know a single person researching the field who wanted to find the answer, “Oh yeah, dinner is bad for you.” [laughs] So, the fact that they have consistently found this answer and there aren't like a thousand studies on here, we're talking a dozen or something, that they've consistently found this. You're right, there haven't been perfect head to heads on all of these, but I think the balance of the evidence has really shifted. 

If you go to my website, which is stevehendricks.org, there's a Frequently Asked Questions page, and I focus in that chapter on one really, really very well-done study by a researcher at the University of Alabama, Birmingham named Courtney Peterson. A question that I've gotten since then is, “Do you have anything other than just Peterson's studies? Are you just relying on her two, three studies that you talk about in the book?” At the time that I wrote about it, I didn't feel that there was a lot of fantastic science out there that was as good as hers that merited taking up the space. But on my website, on that Frequently Asked Question page, I discussed three or four other studies. Most of them have taken place in China. They seem to me, anyway, to be very well conducted and very well controlled. They do do some head-to-head stuff. 

If we have someone eating from, let's say, 07:00 AM to 03:00 PM or something and then we have another group of people eating from noon to 08:00 PM. Who does better? And they're tracking longevity biomarkers and they're tracking disease biomarkers, everything you would expect, cholesterol and blood sugar and things like that. It's just to me, anyway, it just reads really overwhelmingly in favor of these morning eating windows. But having said that, the science is still young. Who knows what we'll find? What does seem more and more clear, though, is when they compare to really late eating windows, like the one meal a day, just being dinner. You're eating from, let's say, 06:00 to 08:00 PM or something. Those really seem not to pan out on a great many of the longevity markers. You might look into some of those and see what you think. Shoot me an email, tell me if you agree or disagree. 

Melanie Avalon: Just some brief comments. One, I think you did a really excellent job of, like you said, laying out all these different studies and acknowledging when there are conflicting findings. It was a very, very valuable chapter, and I think everybody should read it. I know so, what I don't think that's ideal at all. I wish I wasn't like this. I do think, though, if it's between eating all day, if you are a late-night eater and you had to choose between eating all day or having a late-night window. 

I mean, I know you had the Matson study that compared like a 5 to 9 window to an all-day eating and didn't seem to find benefits. What I'm trying to say is I think finding the fasting window that you can stick to and do consistently might outweigh forcing yourself into a different eating window that is not as enjoyable or that you can't stick to as easily because it's not what you thrive on. 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, I think we don't have enough studies to say for sure, but I think what you're proposing there is entirely possible. It could be that, yeah, it's healthier to do a long fast each night but eat in the morning and early afternoon. But compared to eating all day, it may in fact be pretty healthy by comparison to do what you're talking about doing. So, that's entirely possible. I don't think we have enough research to prove it or disprove it. The one thing that I will say is, again, I was one of these people who I mean, my favorite countries in the world are like to visit are Spain and Italy. That's because they eat and drink till all hours of the night. That's my preferred lifestyle. I have always been a nighttime person. I did not want to make this change, but I thought I would make the experiment. 

I was just stunned in three days, all of a sudden, this 50-year-old habit of mine of eating dinner at night and eating well late into the night with bedtime snacks and so on, it just vanished. It just absolutely went away as though my body had been, as I say in the book, waiting for me to do this all along. It just felt so natural. The research shows if that is in fact something like what's going on, it's probably because I'm eating now more in sync with what my circadian rhythms are asking me to do. So, the one thing I would say is, try it for a week, see what you think. If you get a week where you can do it, try amending it, try playing with it. And you're right. Like, different people will come to different conclusions and they'll have different things that they feel comfortable with and different things that they can do with their work schedule and not do. But you might just experiment with shifting some of your calories earlier in the day, see what you think yourself. 

Melanie Avalon: I am all about self-experimentation finding what works for you. Before, when you're eating a dinner, were you doing intermittent fasting with that or were you just eating throughout the day and eating more at night.

Steve Hendricks: There was a period before I-- as I was starting research on this book, where I had shifted to this daily intermittent fasting and my eating window was exactly the one that I just criticized, which was I skipped breakfast. I would have my first meal around 11:00 AM or noon and try to have my last food by about 08:00 or so at night. I'd say the calories were about evenly divided between sort of lunchtime and dinnertime. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, got you. Yeah. So, well, listeners get the book, read it, read all the chapters, and I can't wait to hear what people think. The last question that I ask every single guest on this show, and it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. We didn't even talk about you have a whole fascinating chapter on Russia and fasting for mental health and the effects on the brain and fascinating things people with psychiatric disorders have experienced historically with fasting. So, listeners will just have to get the book to read that. But what is something that you're grateful for? 

Steve Hendricks: Well, as we're recording this, Thanksgiving has just happened and more than anything else, I've been thinking over the Thanksgiving long weekend that I am grateful that I have had the opportunity to share this information with people. We didn't talk much about my own health struggles, but I really do credit some of the information that I found in this book with basically having saved my life. I'm in an awfully privileged, fortunate position that I'm able to write a book and share these ideas and hopefully help some other people the way that some of these ideas helped me. So, I'm most grateful at this moment for the opportunity to get to do that. 

Melanie Avalon: I cannot thank you enough for what you're doing because nobody has done this. I kept thinking so much when I was reading the book. I was like, I can't believe that I have been writing, thinking, talking about fasting for so long, and this is all just completely new information to me. My mind was being blown. I think you've done a huge service to humanity to compile all this information in a really wonderful read. I can't thank you enough. It's amazing. I look forward to your future book. Are you writing one now? 

Steve Hendricks: No, I'm busy with podcasts. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes, all the interviews. [laughs] 

Steve Hendricks: Which is fantastic, I'm very happy to have them, but no, I've got some ideas floating around in my head, but nothing concrete. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will eagerly look forward to your future work and hopefully we can connect again in the future. Again, thank you so much for everything that you're doing. Oh, yeah. How can people best follow your work? What links? 

Steve Hendricks: Yeah, so I'm not huge on social media. I am on Instagram. I think it's @stevehendricks99 is my handle. But best way to stay in touch is through my website, which is just stevehendricks.org. As I mentioned, the book is not a prescriptive book. It's not a how to about fasting, though you can certainly glean a lot of how to information from it. But I've gotten a zillion questions about how do I do this, how do I do that. My Frequently Asked Questions page probably has, I don't know, 10,000 words of answers to the most common questions I get. So, a lot of people have found that useful. If you want to get in touch, just shoot me an email. It's on my contact page. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much again for your time. I treasure it. I do not take it for granted. And again, thank you for everything that you're doing and hopefully we can talk again in the future. 

Steve Hendricks: Thanks, Melanie. It's been a great pleasure. 

Melanie Avalon: Thanks, Steve.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 23

Episode 314: New Co-Host Announced!, Uneven Fat Loss, Inflammatory Fat Cells, Topical Fat Burners, Thermogenic Supplements, Undereating, Safe Olive Oil, Polyphenols, And More!

Intermittent Fasting


Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Avalonx Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers, Common Allergens, Heavy Metals,  Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

BEAUTYCOUNTER GIVEAWAY: go to Apple Podcasts and Leave a review and/or your thoughts about the new co-host or update your previous review and then send a screenshot to questions@ifpodcast.com to enter to win!

20:20 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

23:20 - Listener Q&A: Ashely - Uneven Fat Loss

36:30 - Listener Q&A: Diane - Thermogenics

42:00 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

44:45 - Listener Q&A: Amy - What Should We Look For In Safe Olive Oils?

The Freshest, Most Flavorful Artisanal Olive Oil You'll Ever Taste

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get free-organic, free-range chicken thighs for a year plus $20 off. Yes, that's right. I'm talking free-organic, free-range chicken thighs for an entire year and $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. 

They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage breed pork, that is raised crate free, and wild caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees, and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. So, they have quite a few options, including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. 

I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking, this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable and better for you and the planet all at home. Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken thighs for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. Yes, that's 3 pounds of bone and chicken thighs free in every box for a year, plus $20 off your first order when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream and then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 314 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. So, for listeners who did not listen last week or have not been getting the updates, haven't been in the Facebook group, this is Cynthia's last episode on the show. We talked about this at length at the end of the last episode. But for listeners who are just listening to this episode, I know we talked about it recently, but would you like to talk a little bit about what's happening in your life and your experience with the show and where you're going from here?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. So, in Episode 313 I announced that I was going to be stepping away from podcasting duties for Intermittent Fasting Podcast, and I thanked the community, the IF Podcast team behind the scenes, and Melanie and Gin for really creating a wonderfully enriching and warm and welcoming hello, when I started 10 months ago. My business is going in a different direction and so I hired a CIO. So, Chief Information Officer, and we've gotten laser focused on the next steps in my business. I just felt in a lot of different ways that my attention needed to be focused on those two or three things in my business, and that everything else I needed to kind of reprioritize. 

So, like I shared last week, Melanie and I are leaving on good terms. This is not a breakup. This is a pause. We will continue to be supportive of one another's platforms, agendas, podcasts. I say podcasts with plurals because we both have one of our own outside the context of IF Podcast. And so, really taking the opportunity to say thank you again and then super excited to know who's going to be stepping into the podcasting co-hosting duties, as this is someone that I'm quite fond of and I think will do a wonderful job. But I'll let Melanie share with you who that is. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, well, first of all, so just to respond to that, when I said this last week, I don't want to be redundant, but it's just been such an incredible adventure having Cynthia co-hosting this show. It was really exciting to see how the show really changed, like the dynamics of it as far as the content that we got to talk about. You just have such incredible medical expertise, when it comes to fasting and specifically women and hormones and all of the things. I know that it's just been such a valuable resource for people. So, I can't thank you enough for your time, for what you brought to the show, for our friendship. It's just been really, really wonderful. Like, you were saying how it's not a breakup. It kind of feels more like in school, there're different grades and different classes and different things in life, but those end just by necessity of that was the thing that you were learning and experiencing at that time. So, this has been like a really incredible chapter of the show that I am so, so grateful for. I know that Cynthia and I will be talking a lot in the future and hopefully seeing each other in person, which will be very exciting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun. 

Melanie Avalon: That'll be really exciting. I still haven't even seen Gin, actually, which is crazy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I've met Gin multiple times. Gin is great. Yeah. 

Melanie Avalon: Maybe someday we'll all be at something together. But I also want to say that I really, really support when you first told me about this. I completely understand and understood and I am all about, like, there's so much opportunity and potential and things to do in life. And I think in order to really have the best experience of your life and do everything that you want to do, you have to make those hard decisions about what to focus on and where the energy needs to be invested because I wish we had unlimited time and energy, but we don't. So, I'm all about putting your time and energy where it needs to be for you at your life at this moment. So, just want to say I'm completely supportive of everything that you're doing and we'll have to bring you back for a reunion episode. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that would be fun. For listeners, I know sometimes change seems scary and I remind everyone that change is a part of life, and it's like the ebb and flow of our lives and so it's wonderful to have had the opportunity to be connected to the podcast and now I can be laser focused in my business and kind of move things forward. As I shared, I've got a junior and essentially a rising senior and a rising sophomore, and they're only home for a couple more years. So, all my free time is really deliberate at this point and eventually I'll be an empty nester, which is kind of scary to imagine. I'm sure the doodles will be happy. My husband will probably be happy, but it'll be a big adjustment. So, thank you for everything and for the community that I've been a part of. 

Melanie Avalon: That will be one thing that will be weird. I feel like I know so much about your daily life and kids and everything, but now I'll have to keep up. I mean, we'll still be talking, but we won't be talking quite as regularly. So, I wish you all the best with the kids and the family and all the things. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Likewise. Likewise. We'll get to see, you know, you get a little bird's eye view into your friends lives on social media, but yeah, we'll have to carve out time to catch up on occasion. 

Melanie Avalon: Definitely, definitely, definitely. Especially if you have a future book or something that would be really exciting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That is the goal. That is the goal, for sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, the announcement about the new co-host, who I am so excited. What it's going to look like going forward? This will be the last episode with Cynthia. Next week, I'm actually, as a kind of like, what's the word, an intermission, [chuckles] I'm going to air a conversation that I had with Steve Hendricks, who wrote a book called The Oldest Cure in the World: Adventures in the Art and Science of Fasting. That book I've talked about it on this show before was mind blowing. I thought I knew a lot about fasting. You just learn so much, how fasting has appeared throughout the ages, throughout religions, throughout culture, and it's not what you think. [laughs] You'll have to listen to the A, read the book and or listen to the episode to find out. There're a lot of misconceptions we have about fasting as far as how it manifested in religions, how it was used, like Hippocrates and the Greeks and fasting and then a lot of drama. A lot of really crazy, controversial stuff with fasting. It's crazy.

Oh, this is something, Cynthia, that really stuck with me from that book. It's so interesting to think for the longest time we didn't realize what was fueling us during a fast. So, it didn't occur. I should find the actual date, but now it's just so obvious to us. Oh, you're burning your fat. That's why you lose weight. But for a long time and again, this is like relatively recently, there were all these theories about how people fasted, like where their energy was coming from. People thought that it was a spirit or a vibe or there was this one moment I should probably give more details, but basically they thought that the energy came from another person.

Oh, one group thought that it was from-- because women's menstruation would go away if they severely fasted. They thought it was like that was what they were fueling on while fasting. It's just really interesting to think that to us, it seems so obvious. Yeah, you're losing fat that's what it is. But that this was not a known fact for quite a while. It's kind of mind blowing to think about.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll have to check that book out. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so interesting. He talks about the role of-- this was really controversial on my Instagram. He talks about how fasting was used as a control mechanism for women with some religions. That is just I mean, it's just crazy stuff. So, in any case, sorry, I'm on the tangent. I'm going to air that episode with Steve because I think everybody will find it so interesting. So, that'll be the intermission. 

And then the new co-host is Vanessa Spina, and a lot of listeners are probably familiar with her. She is the best-selling author of a book called Keto Essentials. But she runs the Optimal Protein Podcast. Her brand is Ketogenic Girl. Her show, I think, used to be called-- did her show used to be called Ketogenic Girl podcast? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. When did she rebrand? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe in the last two years. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it wasn't that long ago. So, she's just a beautiful spirit. I love her, I've been friends with her. I was on her show probably a year and a half ago or two years ago or so and that's when I first met her. And she's just incredible. She's very smart, very intelligent, very much into the role of protein like Cynthia and I are. So, there'll be that theme continuing, which is a good thing. She's very into the things that Cynthia and I would always talk about. She's also a Peter Attia fangirl, so that can continue. But she's just very smart. 

Her degree, well, she's a sport nutrition specialist. She completed a two-year biomedical science program at the University of Toronto because she has a love of biochemistry and physiology. And I just think she's going to bring a lot to the show. It's definitely going to be a different perspective. She's not a doctor or anything like that. I think one thing will be really nice is she's the first co-host that has-- well, again, so she has a young son. This will be the first time having a co-host with a young child. So, I'm just really, really excited. You guys are going to love Vanessa. 

Oh, she also created and you'll hear all of this when I actually have her on in her own story. But she created a tone device which measures breath acetone. It's a ketone breath analyzer like she made that, how cool. She also recently launched a red-light therapy line as well. So, again, fits in the family here and being an entrepreneur, creating her own products in the sphere. I can't wait for you guys to meet her. We are going to do a special incentive. This is similar to what we did with Cynthia. You guys responded really well to this, and I'm really excited to do it again, which is reviews of the show help so much more than most people realize.

So, we really want to make it welcoming for Vanessa. We are going to give away a prize. You guys know that I love Beautycounter, Cynthia loves Beautycounter as well, which is non-toxic skincare and makeup that is free of endocrine disruptors and will revolutionize your skin and friends, endocrine disruptors are so, so huge. I'm actually going to talk more about my theory surrounding them and a question that we have in today's show. So, I'm going to give away a Beautycounter prize worth over $500. If you would like to get that, to enter, if you haven't written a review of the show yet, go to Apple Podcasts. If you have already written a show, go to Apple Podcasts and update your review. 

In the review, include your thoughts on Vanessa joining the show, what you're excited to learn about from Vanessa, what you're looking forward to, and then send us a screenshot of that to questions@ifpodcast.com. We will enter you into the giveaway to win over $500 worth of Beautycounter products. If you're a man listening and you're like, “I don't need Beautycounter,” well, A, if you're a man and you win, I will tailor it to make sure I include products for you. And then also it will be great gifts that you can give to the women in your life because got to make the women in your life happy. I think that's all about that. Any other thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I'm a huge fan of Vanessa's. We have bonded over a shared love of Prague and so I know that she will bring another kind of side to the IF Podcast. I think listeners will really like her. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes, so, Vanessa lives in Prague. [chuckles] She's not even in the US. It's been really funny talking to her because we text the time shift. So, basically, I hit her with all the things and then there's like a time gap and then there's the response. But yeah, I can see how you guys would really bond over that because I remember you talking about how much you loved Prague. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, Prague is awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: So, she loves Prague. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, highly recommend. If you have not been to that part of Eastern Europe, you must go. 

Melanie Avalon: When I've talked to her, I'm always like I wish you would move to the US because I want to hang out with her. But I know she adores Prague. So, okie dokie. So, stay tuned for that. 

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Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, and this is the question that I actually might relate to what I was talking about with the Beautycounter. This comes from Ashley. The subject is uneven fat loss. Ashley says and this was back when Gin was co-hosting. It was a while ago. She says, “Hi, Gin and Melanie.” She says, “I am four months into the IF lifestyle and have been listening from newest to oldest to the IF Podcast. I just finished podcast number 108 and a listener had a question about uneven fat loss. I too have experienced this in my own journey with uneven fat loss around my stomach. It shocked me that you both have said you hadn't really heard of that before, but with the podcast being older, I quickly checked in the Facebook groups to see if anyone had talked about it lately. Still nothing. This isn't really a question, but just wanted to let you know there are now two people that have experienced uneven fat loss.” Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge, Ashley. It was a long time ago that we talked about this. Cynthia, I'm curious, have you had this experience with your patients or you where people seem to lose fat unevenly in areas?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. So, Ashley, thank you for your question. I'm just trying to think about how to answer this thoughtfully, because all of us are our own individuals and we gain and lose fat depending on a lot of different variables. Do I find it surprising that there might be uneven fat loss? Yes, I think you really have to kind of trust the process. Depending on where these adipocytes are, I think you mentioned around your stomach, it could be that you may not be at a low enough level of fat reduction to be able to see the results you're looking for. We know that we can't spot reduce. 

Even if we're frustrated, like, I have certain parts of my body that depending on where I'm carrying or how much fat I'm carrying, I will get pockets in certain spots. I've talked to enough friends of mine who are plastic surgeons, just asking them, like, “Why does this happen? How does this happen?” A lot of its genetically mediated. We're kind of born with a certain amount of fat cells and a lot of that's predetermined by genetics, but then also what we're eating in our younger years up and through our teen years when we're starting to continue to develop. So, I would say that have I seen this? Yes. 

I think there are probably different things that you could try to do. I think, obviously, being conscientious about the nutrition piece where you kind of get discretionary macronutrients, things like sweets and desserts and alcohol can definitely derail good diets, healthy fats is one example. It's very easy to overeat healthy fats. They're delicious. I just ate some macadamia nuts before I started recording. Then I just portion them out. I would say if it really bothers you and you feel like the nutrition piece and fasting and maybe strength training is not getting the results that you want, you may be in a position where, if you desire to, and certainly, again, very personal decision. 

Maybe going to talk to a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist to see what other options are available. I have colleagues using [unintelligible [00:26:25] which is an injectable medication, and some of them are using it on themselves just to spot reduce small areas. I don't know if this is a large area all the way up to cryotherapy modalities or even liposuction. Now, again, those are extremes and for some people that would be a no go, but there're a lot of things that you can do. But it's not at all unusual for people to feel like they've got some degree of asymmetry or some degree of lack of consistency in terms of where their fat distribution is. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: Great answer. I'm glad you talked about the genetics piece. So, something that I think about often-- did you ever read I think it's in Good Calories, Bad Calories. Is it? There's this study they often talk about in the low carb ketosphere where it was a weight loss, but there're pictures, there're like black and white pictures from the forevers ago, like, patient pictures of this patient that lost weight only in one part of her body. I think on the top of her body. She was like skinny and emaciated on top and obese on the bottom. Have you seen these pictures? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm. 

Melanie Avalon: And so, the reason I bring that up is because the argument that was made surrounding that, I think they were talking about how it's clearly not just calories, because how can you be emaciated on one part of your body and literally obese on the other part. So, there's like signaling involved here. So, basically, the body can specifically store or not store fat in certain areas. A lot of that can be genetics like Cynthia mentioned, I think a huge piece of it. I'm not saying our skincare makeup is causing this, but these endocrine disruptors, so these toxic chemicals that we are exposed to through our diet, our lifestyle, especially our skincare and makeup, a lot of them are actually obesogens, meaning they actually modulate our fat cells and cause them to store fat. 

So, the studies on this are fascinating. They've actually found that these compounds can make the fat cells more likely to store fat. They make them more inflammatory, they make them actually hold on-- These toxic compounds, the body often puts them into fat cells to keep them from harming your body, which is great in the short term, not so great in the long term, because it means those toxins, while inert from your body, are stored in your fat cells. And we talked about this before. So, then people will lose weight and actually release those toxins, they have to deal with them then and can experience negative side effects from that. So, the process of it though--

These obesogens can make these cells inflammatory, more likely to store fat, and then more likely to actually recruit via cytokines, more fat cell potential growth, which is crazy. They've been shown to modulate insulin and ghrelin. So, our hunger and our satiety hormones. The reason I'm saying this is that it just goes to show that there can be signaling on fat cells for whatever reason, making some fat cells gaining more or holding on to more lipids and some might be more likely to release lipids. So, there's just a lot of things going into that genetics, endocrine disruptors that can definitely be a thing is my point. It's something where just in general, supporting A, anti-inflammatory state, removing these endocrine disruptors, working on your hormones and your sleep and your lifestyle. 

I'm glad Cynthia brought up that there are mechanical interventions that you can do. I'm all about doing whatever you want to do, honestly. Some of those procedures can be invasive, so you really have to weigh cost benefit of that. But there are more invasive procedures where you can address literally just like remove the fat. Things like liposuction or laser liposuction, which is slightly less invasive but still invasive. And then there are other things that people do, like I've talked about CryoSlim before, which is they apply heat and cold to your fat cells and that can actually, “target that area.” There's CoolSculpting which freezes off the fat. That's been shown to be effective. It can have some side effects though, it can be a little bit painful, create some discoloration of the skin for some people. 

But yeah, it's hard to outside of those more-- I don't want to say drastic because they're becoming more and more accessible at different centers and aesthetic places. Outside of that, it's really hard to specifically target fat cells. That said, something I would like to make in the future. This actually relates to our next question. Given the concept that we know that these fat cells have signaling mechanisms that make them more or less likely to store or gain weight, I actually do think that topical fat burners and I haven't found many that I like. That's why I want to make my own. [chuckles] 

But I do think that it's not going to burn calories. You can't put something on your skin and burn calories, that is not is what is happening. But I can see how you could put on compounds that would act as a thermogenic sort of and making those fat cells more likely to burn fat. So, that's why in the future, I want to make a fat cell unlocking cream, I'm just brainstorming right now, but I really want to do this, where you would put it on those stubborn areas, and then you would do something like fasting and exercise. So, then it might make it more likely that those specific stores would release their free fatty acids that you could then burn. It wouldn't actually burn the fat, but it might be a little key helping you unlock the door. So, I'm just putting that out there. But in any case, so, yes, it is a thing. Clearly, it's a thing for Ashley. There are options. Yeah, feel free listeners to write in. If you have your own experiences of uneven fat loss and if you found anything that has been helpful, definitely write in and let us know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was very comprehensive. I think it really comes down to we've all got quirky things about our bodies and some things we can learn to live with or if it really bothers us, there's no judgment, I think it's really up to the individual to create a plan or a system that will help them address things they don't like. Obviously, very bio individual, there's no judgment irrespective of what people choose to do if there's something they'd like to change about themselves. 

Melanie Avalon: Agreed. I'm glad we're on the same page about all of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I was the same way when I was seeing patients in the hospital in the office. I was always like, “Hey, I'm just an open-minded individual.” As long as you're not hurting yourself, everyone has to do what resonates and makes sense for them. 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, there's so much-- not to get on a soapbox, but there's so much judgment in today's culture, there's just so much judgment. If you just think about it for a second, especially with social media, everybody has an opinion on everything. I mean, I guess right now I have an opinion on everybody having an opinion on everything, but there's just this vibe of everybody needs to be a certain way. If you feel a certain way in your body or want a certain thing that is or isn't right, and I don't know, it's really exhausting. I'm just about, you just do you, like Cynthia said, if you're not hurting anybody else, just do whatever you want. I don't care. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'll just leave this here. But as an example, there's a woman, there's a trainer that I follow, and she's been very open about her facelift. It's actually been interesting from a clinical perspective to see what she looks like each day. I was surprised how many people were just so judgmental of her choice. I just said, I hope you have an uneventful surgery and recovery, and thank you for your transparency, but I think there's this duality that people want people to disclose, but then they want to criticize people for disclosing. I think that it helps people understand why there's sometimes a reluctance to be fully transparent, because there's always going to be someone who has an opinion that's going to be the opposite of the choice that you made. But we're all adults. Human nature is such that we tend to be very apt to be critical of one another. I always say I'm too busy to be focusing on what other people are doing. I'm just trying to focus in on what I need to be doing. 

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more. I mean, it's just really interesting to think about, not to go on a whole esoteric soapbox tangent, but we don't really have a problem at all with women wearing makeup. And so, the concept of makeup, if we just think about literally what it is, you are changing the way your face looks to other people. That's what you're doing. I don't know how that's different than getting some sort of surgery on your face. People will say that, “Oh, well, you're actually changing your face. You're not just putting on makeup.” Well, how is that different from dyeing your hair? Dyeing your hair is changing the actual composition of your hair. In the end, if you just really step back, it's changing something about your appearance. It's you controlling your appearance, either because it makes you feel better when you look that way or how you look to other people, but I just all lump it in the same category. It's just interesting how there's so much judgment of some things and not others. I'm all about let's just all be friends. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, yes, yes. 

Melanie Avalon: All righty. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I was going to say our next question is from Diane. Subject is thermogenics. “Hey, ladies. I'm 100% obsessed with your podcast. I believed in intermittent fasting before and attempted it for about a month about a year ago, but then fell into the keto craze and just became unattracted to dieting altogether. You ladies have definitely restored my faith by convincing me that it isn't a diet, it is most definitely a lifestyle. I'm only one week in and super confident in my future as an IF-er." Thank you. 

My question is simple. "Does taking a thermogenic in a capsule form break the fast? I typically work out in the morning three to four times a week, and I like to take one 30 minutes before I start my workout. My window doesn't usually open until 3:00 to 04:00 PM. I find that thermogenic curbs my appetite even after working out, until I'm ready to break my fast, which is great, unless I've already broken my fast simply by taking the supplement. Any advice will help. Again, thank you so much. You all are awesome. Keep up the great work. Sidenote, I also like to drink water with powder BCAAs during my workout. I would still like some more insight on that as well." Thank you again.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome Diane, thank you for your question. Okay, so a few things. Well, we don't know what you're taking. We don't know what this thermogenic and a capsule is, so we can't say if the ingredients are not break your fast. So, you'd really have to look at the breakdown of the ingredients and take it from there. I do think we can more broadly talk about just the concept of thermogenics. This kind of relates to what I was saying before. Thermogenics are another thing where I find it really interesting because historically it kind of relates to the fat burning cream idea. People will say weight loss pills, these diet pills, which are often some form of thermogenics, don't work. 

Like, there's this black and white idea that they don't work because a pill can't burn calories and it's seen as a fad. I have a more nuanced perspective in that. And again, it's very similar to what I was saying about the fat burning cream. If you're taking a compound that increases your metabolism or helps increase lipolysis, you're probably going to burn more fat if you're not compensating with eating. So, basically, if you're combining a thermogenic with a diet approach or even with something like fasting, depending on what it is. Again, there are so many on the market, and so many of them have a lot of sketchy fillers, and so many of them probably don't have what they say they have in them. I wouldn't touch most of them on the market, maybe any of them except my own. [chuckles] I don't have one right now, but if I have one in the future. 

My point is, in theory, the concept scientifically, yes, they could help support weight loss, but I think a lot of them are sketchy and have problematic ingredients. And again, I wouldn't touch them. As far as whether or not they break the fast, the concept of a thermogenic itself and what is a thermogenic? So, it could be something, like, caffeine is a thermogenic. Something like, well, back in the day, ephedrine was thermogenic of thermogenics. There's a lot of just other compounds that have been shown to upregulate the metabolic rate and things like that. So, that's what we're talking about here. 

She finds, for example, that it curbs her appetite. Again, I don't know which one you're taking, but the active ingredient itself is probably not breaking the fast. You just have to look at the overall whole picture of it. Well, I can talk about BCAAs, those will break a fast because those are amino acids which are sending a very different signal to the body and are going to stop autophagy. They're just a very different signaling mechanism than a thermogenic. What are your thoughts, Cynthia, on thermogenics? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that was a very comprehensive answer. So, Diane, I would say the BCAAs are definitely going to break your fast. Protein is broken down into amino acids, so you would save that for your feeding window. Not knowing what's in thermogenic, I am not a fan of these. I saw a lot of patients that had palpitations. They have anxiety. If you're only getting one meal in the whole day, I get concerned that you're not eating enough food and that you could be in a chronic deprivation of macros and food on a couple of different levels. The fact that you're taking something to suppress your appetite tells me you're not eating enough. And so, I would say, we know things like black coffee, as an example, have some appetite suppressant mechanisms and can help with boost fat oxidation. Same thing with green tea. 

But I would say thermogenics, as a rule, I've never been a fan of those. I've just seen too many side effects. From my perspective, you're trying to suppress your appetite, which tells me that you're probably not fueling your body the way that you need to. We don't want to suppress our appetite. We can do that with fasting. There're counterregulatory hormones that can do that. But I would save your money and maybe you break your fast around lunch time, and you have a meal then, and you have another meal later in the afternoon, and you're able to hit your protein macros and be able to support your body. But I'm concerned that you're undereating, and I'm concerned that taking thermogenic is not only breaking your fast, but has the potential to cause some unnecessary and unneeded side effects. 

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Okay, so our next question. I'm actually very excited for this question. I specifically wanted to include it in the last episode with Cynthia because I know she's all about the olive oils. So, Amy wants to know what should we look for in safe olive oils? 

Cynthia Thurlow: The sad thing is there was a recent study that came out that demonstrated most conventional, by that I mean stuff you can find in your grocery store and Costco is not actually olive oil. It's adulterated with seed oils and seed oil blends with olive oil, which we want to avoid that. So, I have no affiliation with the company that I buy my olive oil from, but I'll tell you about that. But I will also say you're much better off buying organic olive oil. Like, if you're going to buy from the grocery store organic olive oil, you want to know that it's a company that has a good reputation. Most sourced olive oil comes from Spain and Italy just as an aside. So, hopefully that's one of the places they're sourcing from. 

I have been buying olive oil from the honest to God this is its name, Fresh Pressed Olive Oil Club. And so, every month, we get three different types of olive oil, one that's mild, kind of medium taste, and then one that's a little stronger. I think many of us kind of gravitate towards mild tasting oils. But what you're missing out on is that the pungency and by that I mean, if there's a lot of polyphenols, which are these plant-based compounds in an oil, it feels like it's burning your tongue. It's not really burning your tongue. It's a very intense kind of sensation. This is just completely ironic. My most recent order, they talk about where the things are sourced from, what varieties of olives you get in each order. 

So, as an example, again, I have no affiliation with them. I don't get anything. I don't get a kickback of any kind. But the bold choice was from two areas in Spain. It had three different types of oils and the flavor profile was bold, and they give you a depiction. I'll just share that Ben Azadi, who introduced me to this company, and I just think that we should be thoughtful about where we're sourcing things from. I recognize not everyone may have it in their budget to be able to buy really high-quality oil. So, when you go to the grocery store really looking for oils that are sourced from Spain and Italy, that's where most of the real olive oil comes from. And then organic extra virgin, because that's the first press out of the gate with the olives. Those are two kinds of good things. And then just know that when you go to the grocery store, most of what's there is adulterated. 

Same thing when you go to a restaurant, here in the United States, there's not as much concern about quality. Sometimes your $100 steak is cooked in seed oils, which is a whole separate tangential conversation and rabbit hole, I won't go down. So, those are things I generally recommend. Obviously, there're lots of other options, but this is the company that I've been buying olive oil with. And for me, three bottles of olive oil will last us months. So, I think they had an option where you could join for a penny, meaning you would get a bottle of olive oil for a penny. It was something ridiculous, maybe a dollar, just to try it out. And we actually really liked it. Now this is one of my favorite things to gift to people. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you. You gifted me some of the olive oil for Christmas, which is awesome. So, thank you so much. A lot of great things that you said there. It was so interesting. I went down, like, an olive oil tangent. It's a whole thing. The different types that you see on the market, so there's typically extra virgin, virgin, and then there's light or pure, these different olive oils. So, the extra virgin is the creme de la creme. So, it's mechanically processed. It's cold pressed just basically taking that initial oil straight from the olive. The virgin is still good like that with that extraction process, just not quite as good. There're actually different ratings of olive oils, but one of the main organizations basically qualifies these by the level of free fatty acids. So, it has to do with how many of those are in the olive oil. 

So, for example, extra virgin has less than 0.8%. Virgin has up to 2%. And then the pure and light ones, those relate to what Cynthia was saying. Well, two parts. In general, the pure and light ones. Light, it's not because they're less calories or anything like that. It's more about the marketing and that they often tend to be lighter in color, lighter in flavor. Well, they are refined, so it's probably extracted using chemicals or heat, which is not good, especially when we know how fragile these fatty acids can be and how they have the potential to turn inflammatory when they are heat processed. So, that's a major issue. 

They can also or often adulterated with other like Cynthia was saying other oils like canola oil, grapeseed oil, seed oils. So, it's like a major major issue. But again, it's a major issue not just for the light oils, it happens with the virgin and the extra virgin. This is one of the largest areas for food fraud, which I had Robert Lustig on the show for his book Metabolical. You interviewed him, right, as well? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. He was amazing. Love his book man. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love him. He has a lot in his book about food fraud, the olive oil industry. Major issue with the fish industry, like, scarred me for life. I was like, “Oh, man.” Even if you're having fish at restaurants, oftentimes you're not having what you think you're having, which is a major problem. But, yes, this is a major, major issue with olive oils. Like Cynthia was saying, yes, Spain and Italy are historically the go to, but apparently now it's also becoming a big problem there as well, which is very concerning. I was doing a little bit of research into it. Apparently the two countries where it's least likely to have food fraud are actually Australia and Chile, which I thought was really interesting because they actually have— so, Australia actually has the most stringent standards and testing system for their olive oils, which is pretty interesting. 

But things you want to look for on the bottle, so, well, A, it sounds awesome to do something like Cynthia is doing, where basically you're putting your trust into that company to source you the good olive oil, so that takes away all of you having to play detective. So, I love that concept. I actually also got introduced recently to a company that's very similar. It's not the same company, but they send --I probably should have looked this up beforehand, similar concept where they send you the olive oils. It's like Dry Farm Wines where you're like getting random olive oils to try, but they're all about the quality and everything. What was interesting about this company is I was connected through a friend, and I kept asking to be directly connected to the company. He was saying, “Well, they want to just send it to you because they don't want you to be biased and they want you to just try the olive oils.” 

I was like, “Yes, but I need to talk to them. So, if I do like them, I can share them with my listeners. I will look up the company and put it in the show notes. But if you're just at the store looking some things to look for, you definitely want it in a dark bottle, do not even think of getting olive oil that's not in a dark bottle. Olive oil oxidizes very easily. It goes bad, it can get rancid. So, you want to protect it. So, when you do have it, you want to store it in a cool, dry place. The best buys, like the expiration date, doesn't even matter. Don't even look at that. That's not telling you anything. Also, if it has a bottled-on date also doesn't matter, just throw that out because that can basically-- that's just when it was put in the bottle, it doesn't talk about when the actual olives, like, when the harvesting happened. So, that's why you want to look for a harvest date. That's the date you want to look for on the bottle. The more specifics on the bottle, the better. If there's an estate name, a mill name, that's good. If it specifically says where it's coming from, if there's third party certification seals, those can be really helpful. So, in Europe, they have protected designation of origin, the PDO, Italy has something called the DOP or in California, The California Olive Oil Council has the COOC certified extra virgin seal. So that's really good to look for those standards beyond everything else, just the actual taste and quality can be really important. Cynthia was talking about how there's different-- people will even do, like, olive oil tastings. Have you done those before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. There was this wonderful place in Northern Virginia that did them. I believe the mom was like from Italy and the dad was from South America, maybe Argentina. They had this family business and they would have olive oil tastings. It was really interesting to see the high polyphenol content ones were really bitter, and they would always say, “Don't be afraid of bitter.” Unfortunately, our palates are so conditioned to sweet. Now that I really understand how important polyphenol rich compounds are to our health, I'm like, “Oh my gosh,” those opportunities to try different olive oils and I would always gravitate towards the mild one, but now bitter things like bitter tea, bitter vegetables, it sends important information to our bodies. But yes, I've been to olive oil tastings and I love doing them. I think it's such a great opportunity to expand our palates.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so glad you mentioned the oleocanthol because that's attributed to be one of the main benefits for why olive oil has so many benefits. It's very anti-inflammatory. It rivals NSAIDs in clinical studies for its anti-inflammatory potential. I remember the first time I went through an olive oil phase where I was using all the olive oil. I remember I would get that burning feeling and I thought it was because I was allergic. And then I realized later it is from that plant compound that does have those health benefits. For the health benefits, at least you do want that burning feeling from the olive oil and there're benefits with that increased bitterness and things like that. So, yeah, olive oils. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Certainly, a very comprehensive way of talking about olive oils. 

Melanie Avalon: Now I'm like craving some olive oil. Maybe rather than doing a last question just to end things, since this is our last moment together on the show, what is in the future for Cynthia Thurlow? What should we be looking for? What are you excited about? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, thank you for that question. I would say there's a degree of consistency. So, obviously the book Everyday Wellness continuing to kind of evolve these supplement lines, speaking on stages. I'm in the midst of writing a second book and so that is certainly exciting. I think that a lot of this year is going to be foundational work that I'm building within my business to be able to continue to scale. Obviously, group programs will continue to be there. Wholistic Blueprint and IF:45 but you'll probably just see a lot of me traveling. I always say I work hard, I play hard, and so going on vacation is one of my favorite things to do. Being able to connect with loved ones, my loved ones, my kids are obviously and my husband are very very important to me, being really deliberate with my time. I think the biggest thing is the realization that if I spread myself too thin, then I can't be good at any one thing. 

So, I'm trying to be super deliberate, blinders on, we're going to be running a beta test for a program that will be coming out in May. For those of you that already follow me on social media or on my email list, just know that there's something coming out that's really cool, that actually will be for men and women because we've had so many requests, wives and significant others want to be able to do programs with their significant others. And so, we endeavored to create a program that is going to be able to meet people at different needs. I'm really excited because I feel like I'm putting things together in a way that is very thoughtful and I don't think I know that what I want to leave people with is that they feel educated, inspired, and empowered. That's definitely one of the missions of my business. 

You'll definitely still see me on social media. I still remain an introvert, so I may not be on video all the time, but you'll definitely be hearing lots of podcasting. We've got some really incredible guests coming up that I'm excited about. Sometimes you get the incredible guests, like the unicorns, you get them when they write a book. [laughs] I've been chasing after two or three people for at least 6 to 12 months, and they're coming on in the next month, which is exciting. Lots of prep, but yeah, all good things. Definitely all good things. Yeah, lots of travel, that's also part of it. That's the funny thing is, people now will say to me, “Oh, you kind of inspire me to set time aside.” I'm like, it doesn't have to be a grandiose trip, it could just be a trip an hour away, or you could just go away for a night. But for me, traveling is like one of my favorite things to do outside of working in my business. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, yes, that is incredible. If they want to specifically follow you, how can they get on your email list? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, easiest thing to do is just go to my website. There's a little box where you can put your email in, so www.cynthiathurlow.com. You can also get information about upcoming launches. We have waiting lists for programs and I always encourage people to get on the waitlist because, hint, oftentimes when the waitlist opens, it's before the general public can sign up for classes, and so we always have financial incentives to sign up early. So, yeah, we've had a lot of interest in IF:45 and in Wholistic Blueprint, which we just finished this past week. So, yeah, definitely a good way to stay in touch. I always say that I don't endeavor to over email my list. I try to be very judicious, but yeah, it's exciting. I think that you can catch me on Instagram cynthia_thurlow_. 

I wish everything was the same on every platform, but if you can imagine, there are a lot of Cynthia Thurlows out there, which kind of muddied the waters. I'm trying to have consistency. I'm on Twitter. Be forewarned, I can be snarky. I'm on LinkedIn. I have a free Facebook group, Intermittent Fasting Lifestyle/my name. It's a free group. You just have to answer a couple of questions, largely centering around the fact that I'm not giving you medical advice. You'd be surprised how many people don't want to check that box and they don't get in and we have nothing to do with it. That's how the group is set up. We have men and women in that group. It's a very nice, supportive community. We are anti-drama. We boot people out for that. Those are the ways to definitely stay in touch and also subscribe to Everyday Wellness. We're getting close to 100,000 subscribers and this is something I've been working towards very diligently. And thank you for all the support. Listeners should know that it goes both ways with Melanie and I. I will continue to be a supporter of the podcast and of her and all of your endeavors as well as Vanessa's. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It's been such a beautiful journey. I'm so excited to see where everything goes with you. It's just really exciting, everything that you're doing and really, really helpful in having a profound impact on the world, especially women. So, thank you so, so much. We'll put links, listeners, to everything that we talked about and all of those resources and all of Cynthia's stuff in the show notes. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode314 and then you can follow us on Instagram, @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and @ifpodcast. And then again. Lastly, if you would like to be entered into a giveaway to win over $500 worth of beauty counter, go to Apple Podcasts, write a review of the show and/or update your current review to say what you are excited about to experience with Vanessa Spina. She will be here week after next. Okay, well, this has been absolutely wonderful, Cynthia, anything from you before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you my friend and listeners just know that I will be cheering everyone on from the sidelines. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I will talk to you soon. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 16

Episode 313: New Publicity, High Volume Training, Carb Cycling, Marathons, REM Sleep, Deep Sleep, Magnesium, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

NUTRISENSE: Get Your Own Personal Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM) To See How Your Blood Sugar Responds 24/7 To Your Food, Fasting, And Exercise! The Nutrisense CGM Program Helps You Interpret The Data And Take Charge Of Your Metabolic Health! Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX MAGNESIUM NIGHTCAP: Melanie’s Magnesium Nightcap Features Magnesium Threonate, The Only Type Of Magnesium Shown To Significantly Cross The Blood Brain Barrier, To Support Sleep, Stress, Memory, And Mood! Get 15% Off During The Launch (April 8th - April 17th, 2023) With Code NIGHTCAP15 at avalonx.us And 10% off anytime at  avalonx.us and mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon

21:15 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

24:15 - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I just recently trained and completed a marathon— can you discuss fueling for endurance in Perimenopause?

39:25 - Listener Q&A: Paul - How to improve REM vs deep sleep (as tracked on Oura)

54:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

SLEEP REMEDY: Go To melanievalon.com/sleepremedy And Use the code MELANIEAVALON for 10% Off!!

DRY FARM WINES: Natural, Organic, Low Alcohol, Low Sugar Wines, Paleo And Keto Friendly! Go To dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast To Get A Bottle For A Penny!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 313 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. Have you ever felt ashamed or guilty when you eat certain foods? These are likely the "forbidden foods," that you can't touch and you stay away from them. We are constantly faced with societal pressure and judgment around what we eat and how we look. So, we often feel guilty when we eat something that we think is bad for us. Instead of falling for this, we need to shift our focus to thoughtful nourishment, where we are giving our body what it needs. You guys know we are obsessed with continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. NutriSense can help you identify which foods are good for you and what you should eat less of.

They provide continuous glucose monitors, which track your glucose levels in real time. So, basically, you're able to see, okay, I just ate this, and this is what happened to my blood sugar. Once you're able to see the real impact of certain foods on your body, you can start making better food choices guilt free. The CGM is an objective tool through which you can see how your body reacts to different food. This is so important, not subjective, objective. And to make sense of all the data, because it can be a lot. NutriSense pairs you with an expert dietitian who will help you with personalized diet and lifestyle changes that are based on what works best for you.

And you just might be surprised to find that something you used to feel guilty about does not trigger blood sugar spikes after all. You can actually enjoy it in moderation. Maybe you don't need to avoid certain foods or feel guilty about it. Just sign up for the NutriSense program and start making correct food choices today. Curious how it works? A continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time, the application is so easy, so painless. Check out my Instagram, I post videos all the time of putting it on.

Then there's the NutriSense app. With that, you can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiments, and so much more. And then, of course, you get that expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month of free dietitian support. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They'll guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs. I get so much feedback about how people love this aspect of the program. It's really personalized and it really helps you make sense of everything. Go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. I will put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome, this is episode number 313 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I've had a crazy week. Well, two things. The first is that I had an article published in CNBC, which was crazy because it was an actual profile feature-type thing, not just a quote, but a funny story about it. [laughs] I've tried very hard to not talk about my age publicly just because of mostly it's from my acting background, like, you don't want people to know your age or whatever. So, I get questions all the time about how old I am. And so, when the reporter was writing the story, she sent me an email prior to it publishing with fact checking about some different things and sign-offs for the photos and all of that. She asked me if she could include my age in it. So, I was a little bit stressed, and I was talking to my publicist, and I was like, should I and we decided, presumably, hopefully, if I keep getting more articles, it's just going to happen someday, so I might as well just let it go out there.

So, when I told her, I sort of made it clear that I don't normally do that and I don't really want to, but if she wanted to, if she thought it was better for the article to go ahead, I was hoping she would either not do it or put it in somewhere on the down low. She literally made it the title. Did you see the article? [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. I guess as middle-aged women where a lot of women are embarrassed to say their age, I think we should all be proud of our ages. Was it that you thought there would be some bias because you were a young woman?

Melanie Avalon: No, it really mostly goes back to the acting stuff, in which I'm not actively doing right now with the podcasting, so it doesn't matter so much. But like with acting, you could not get roles because of certain .

Cynthia Thurlow: Really? Okay.

Melanie Avalon: So, acting resumes, your age is usually not on there or anything.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. Okay. That gives context, so at least that makes sense to why you would be averse to discussing that.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. It is kind of typical to in general how I am with transparency and all the things, I do have fears of aging. It was just funny, though, because it came out and I was like, "Oh, well." [laughs] Okay. And then the crazy part, though, the second part is that a reporter at Fox reached out about an article, and that was more like a quote-type situation. It was crazy because it was Fox Health, and it's about biohacking. And she also quotes Dave Asprey, so it's like me and Dave Asprey being quoted. And she quoted me like seven times, which is insane.

But then what's even crazier is yesterday, if you Googled-- it's probably changed now because news changes so fast. But if you Googled Biohacking and Google News, I was on the front page twice, which is crazy. I was the number one hit for the Fox article, and then CNBC was like a few down. I just say all this to say it's very surreal and exciting and I don't know what's happening, but it's exciting to see biohacking getting out there in the mainstream media.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Well, and I think there aren't a lot of, like when I think about biohackers, I think it's very much a male-dominated field. I think it's certainly very encouraging that they're featuring more women.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, and actually both of the journalists were women, come to think of it. Although I actually got another reporter at Fox reached out. I don't know if he saw the Fox article. I'm guessing I don't know because it was not through my publicist. It was just random and so that was a male. But he said he's writing about biohacking [laughs] and wants to interview me, I was like okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. So, what is new with you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I literally just finished a podcast with Dr. Mark Hyman, which was really awesome. He is someone that I've really looked up to in the functional medicine space. I have lots of his books, really respect his work, and it was a lot of fun to record with him. We had a couple, like, technical glitches. I'm not sure where that was coming from. There was like of a bump to the beginning to the interview, not because of anything either of us were doing. I think there's just riverside gremlins, just like, you can have Zencastr and Zoom gremlins, just things that ensure technology is not working properly.

But yeah, that was a really cool win this morning. I just think it's important for more women to get interviewed talking about fasting and what is different about fasting for women versus men and how these hormetic stressors can help improve our health. And he was really interested in the supplements, and so we spent a good amount of time talking about creatine and also Myo-inositol. When you admire someone in the health and wellness space, to be able to connect with them and try not totally fan geek and be a spaz, because I think for all of us, it's the recognition like, this is amazing to have been able to interact with someone that I've admired for so long, but also just have a conversation and feel very comfortable being able to discuss how we look differently at health and wellness than we did during our training. And so that was really cool.

This is one of those days. Like, I was trying to explain to my mom, who is coming this afternoon, trying to explain to her, like, "Oh, yeah, I've got this podcast," and I have two with Melanie. I don't know if your parents understand podcasting. My parents just aren't into it. They don't really fully understand the utility and the amount of connection you can have with people. And so, you're trying to explain to my mom, this is a serious part of what I do. It's a wonderful thing that I do, but context of what these things represent, your parents are little bit younger than mine, so they may be more into the concept of podcasting.

Melanie Avalon: They definitely understand because what I'm hearing you say is that, does your mom not quite understand that it's like, career related, that it's very serious?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. She thinks it's like a hobby. Like, this is my hobby. I'm trying to explain to her, if you will arrive while I'm recording, you have to sit and be quiet. [laughs] You can't just come in and talk to me, that kind of thing. But I think my parents are of a generation, like, I love to read, but that's not the only way I learn. And so, trying to explain, like, you can listen in your car, and you can listen while you're at the gym, and you can listen while you're at grocery shop. There're so many ways to learn. It's not just being in front of a book. I think it's just this technology piece. I have aunts who are really into podcasts, so I know it's not per se a generational thing, but it just makes me laugh at my mom. I'll just send her a podcast and she'll be like, "When am I supposed to listen to this?" I'm like, "I don't know. When you're gardening, like, you're retired. You have all this time in the world to do these things." So, anyhow.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, my parents definitely understand that it's a career and they understand that it's well, actually-- they definitely understand because whenever I feel like I'll talk really casually about things, like if an interview gets rescheduled or something like that and they'll get worried, I'm like, no, I'm like, "Mom, it's okay." [laughs] Like it's all okay. She's listened to some occasionally, but definitely not regularly. Although, speaking of interviewing, well, first question, how did you get the interview with Mark Hyman? Were you introduced to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Their team reached out, so that was nice. Yeah. I was like, yes. [laughs] When people like that reach out, you're like, clear my schedule to make that happen. I've had to kind of explain to my team that when those kinds of requests come in, they interrupt my workflow. Like, we remove things from our schedule. We make ourselves available. This is how this works. So, yeah, they reached out. But I had been in his newsletter earlier this year. The Creatine had been in his newsletter, so I assume that I was, like, on their radar, which I thought was really cool and I was like, if nothing more comes out of it, I'm so grateful for that opportunity to be part of his newsletter.

But yeah, he was a great interviewer. I think you probably know this. I think most people probably know this. There are people who interview at a level that you're just I hope to be at that level at some point and he really did an amazing job. Like, asked me things other people have never asked. Well, I don't think I know, I appreciate that.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. The reason I was thinking about it was, thank you for your intro to Gabor Maté because I interviewed him. Oh, and I was going to say, I feel like that'll be the one episode that my mom-- well, I don't know if she wants to listen to it because I talked about her a lot. Kind of like you said, it turned into, like, a therapy session.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally. It's interesting. I don't know if you saw there was, like, an event where he was interviewing Prince Harry, and I feel so conflicted about-- I'm glad that Prince Harry's had so much success with that book and his message, but it's not a slight against him or Megan. It's not any of my business. I was like, I feel like it's so personal. [laughs] Yeah, he is probably one of my favorite interviews, because I think you have to have done the work to be able to interview someone like that, and it would be very inauthentic otherwise. I don't know if you feel similarly after interviewing him.

Melanie Avalon: That experience. I was like, I'm basically having, like, a therapy session with Gabor Maté, except, like, thousands of people are listening. It's fine. [laughs] Good thing I go to therapy every week anyways. Oh, we also had, like, three times, the call dropped out. Like, he just went away. And I was like my heart sank. At the very beginning, I was so nervous. I was just so nervous about it. I introduced him and I said his name, and then I said Dr. Maté to introduce him. He corrected me and he said it's Gabor because he was saying to call him by his first name. But I was so on edge that I thought he was saying that I mispronounced his name. It was like the most mortified moment I think I've ever had on the show and it wasn't even a real moment because that wasn't what he meant; it was incredible. My mom might listen to that was the whole point.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I sent the book to my dad. I'm not sure he'll ever read it, but I think that there are certain books that come along that you recognize how impactful they are on a very substantive level. It's a joy read. Some books are just fun to read and people are fun to interview, but that book, when I read it, I was like, wow, this is a book that took 10 years to write, and this is his life's work, and this is a book that is going to have a tremendous ripple effect for years to come. What a joy to be able to connect with someone like that. So, I'm so glad that you were able to interview him.

Melanie Avalon: And thank you because you made that connection, so I really appreciate it.

Cynthia Thurlow: You're very welcome. Well, you've done that for me many times.

Melanie Avalon: We have a nice little overlapping pool of guests. I have one more thing to touch on before we jump in. This actually well, it relates to one of our questions, so I'm trying to decide if I should talk about it now. I'll talk about it now briefly, and then I'll talk about it more in one of the questions. But today-- so hopefully listeners are listening today that this airs. If you're listening today, March 17, then this is your last day to get the launch special for my new Magnesium Threonate. So, I'm so excited about this magnesium. Basically, when I created my Magnesium 8, which is eight different types of magnesiums. I did not specifically include Magnesium Threonate because it's a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood-brain barrier. It has that unique purpose, and then secondly, it requires a pretty high therapeutic dose to get the intended benefits.

If I had included it in the blend, it just wasn't feasible. Like, you wouldn't have gotten enough of it to actually get the effects that you wanted. So, I released it as a standalone, it's called the Magnesium Nightcap. You can take it to help with everything related to your brain. So, sleep, mood, memory, and this is why I'm going to talk about it, and a little bit about sleep. But so, specifically, if you'd really like to support your sleep, if you'd like to support your cognitive function, the studies have shown that Magnesium Threonate can help, like I said, with memory, learning, mood, it has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression symptoms, and it's also been shown to be neuroprotective. You definitely want to get my Magnesium Nightcap. So, again, today, the 17th, is the last day to get the launch special, and the launch special is 15% off, and the code for that is NIGHTCAP15.

However, some lucky people who got my Magnesium 8 special, so the people who grab that launch special, actually have a special code for 25% off, which is awesome. And that code was emailed to them. So, all the more reason if you didn't get that code to be on all the lists so that you don't miss the specials going forward. For that, it is avalonx.us/emaillist and you can text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. When you text that number, you'll also get a one-time 20% off code, which is great. So, yeah, those are those details. I'll probably circle around just a tiny bit to the magnesium in our sleep question, but I just wanted to get that in there. And we do have another sort of announcement we could share at the end of the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: It's like a teaser.

Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt. But it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me, wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible.

Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into the dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around six to eight weeks, and maybe even up to a year. But nope with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow Mode that's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration, and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with. If you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well turn your food waste into the dirt with the press of a button with Lomi, use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's lomi.com/ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, shall we jump into questions?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so to start things off, we have a question from Stephanie and this comes still from when we gathered all those AMA questions. But she says, "I just recently trained and completed a marathon. Can you discuss fueling for endurance in perimenopause?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I've thought about this question in the context of this is an Intermittent Fasting Podcast. But when I have women in perimenopause or menopause that are training for big events, I am not a fan of a great deal of fasting so, 12, 13 hours fasted or digestive rest, however, you want to reframe that, I think you have to not be afraid to have some carbohydrate. That doesn't mean overwhelming amounts of carbohydrates. I think the first thing that I think about is, are you sleeping? Are you recovering? Are you eating an anti-inflammatory diet? I find a lot of women in perimenopause do best really limiting or eliminating gluten and grains. I do have some very active women in some of my groups. And so, the way that we kind of dance around this is protein is consistent, cycling carbohydrates, depending on how you feel. Obviously, if you're insulin resistant, really being mindful of discretionary carbohydrates and making sure they're coming from real whole food sources.

Whether it's sweet potato or root vegetables or low glycemic fruit like berries and citrus fruit, I think it's very, very dependent. Stephanie, the way to answer your question is really, are you insulin sensitive? How's your sleep? How are you managing the volume of training? Because I find that a lot of women who've been avid endurance athletes in their 20s and 30s just don't recover quite as well. So, making sure you're getting enough recovery, making sure that you're eating enough food, and not over fasting, I think are the big kind of high points. Obviously, my area of expertise is not training high-level athletes. And if you look at people like Dr. Stacy Sims, she is anti-fasting for women and she is someone that works with elite athletes and individuals that are doing a high volume of training. So, I think it's very unique. But I would say really being cognizant of the lifestyle piece that goes along with that doesn't mean it's impossible just making sure you're getting enough recovery, getting enough sleep, making sure that you're getting your macros, and certainly not to restrict food, especially when you're doing a large volume. Like, I've had girlfriends that were training for Ironman races. Whenever I say that, I always feel like I'm like Ironman, Ironman.

Melanie Avalon: I guess it would be like, yeah, IRONMANs, I guess.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, like semantics in my brain. But I think it's really important to just make sure you're not overtraining. I think that's the big-- this role of hormesis, beneficial stress in the right amount at the right time, really important. I just see a lot of women that are still doing and I'm not picking on CrossFit, I'm just going to give that as an example. CrossFit, Orangetheory Fitness, really intense exercise, not enough recovery, and their cortisol just gets depleted. So, just make sure you're taking care of you while you're doing that high volume of training. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, that was very, very helpful. You definitely know a lot more about that than I do. It's not at all my forte, the athletic realm, but I will just echo some of the things that Cynthia said, which is that in general, I like to think that I am macronutrient agnostic and that I always want people to find what works best for them. I do think in general, a lot of people, especially not in our fasting and obviously keto community, will be in a place of really fueling endurance and a lot of activity on carbs and constantly doing the fuel-ups and stuff like that. And they can find great benefits from switching to a low-carb state to fuel endurance because it really pairs well with endurance because you have essentially unlimited fat stores, even people who are thin in any given race. You're not going to run out of fats compared to carbs, where that's requiring constant fuel-ups and things like that and it's more of a roller coaster-type situation.

In general, perimenopausal women aside, I feel like low-carb ketogenic diets can be really great for endurance once people's bodies adapt to them. That said, I think it's really important, especially for women, and I'm really just echoing what Cynthia said, the body can get too stressed from these types of things. So, that's were bringing in, I like how Cynthia was talking about carb ups might be really beneficial. So, basically finding the right approach to the macronutrients that will allow you to both fuel longer-term endurance-type activities on a lower carb approach while still making sure that you're getting in the carb ups in the way that you need to not be overly stressed. Do you like intense actual carbs-- because you normally eat lower carbs, right? Do you have like carb up days at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I always say in the context of this conversation, this is what works for me, because we get so many questions across social media, my teams like we have to just follow you into the gym so that people understand. I typically aim to do three strength training days a week and two of the three are legs and I do some combination of upper body. So, I try to be really efficient because I genuinely don't love the gym that we go to, but we don't have a lot of options because we're not where were before in our state. So, I'll just leave it there. So, I'm like very efficient, I get in, I get out. I also do a lot of Zone 2 Training, and I think Peter Attia does a really good job of explaining what Zone 2 Training is and that's just being physically active. It doesn't necessarily have to be like on a treadmill or a stairmill or elliptical trainer, but I do plenty of Zone 2.

One of the things that I think has been a needle mover for me personally is doing Pilates, largely because I recently learned on Hypermobile and it's really important for me to stretch. So, Pilates is an exercise for my brain. Although I'm working my core, I do find it challenging and those are the three things I try to really focus on and be diligent about and that works well for me. So, when I'm doing strength training. I'm trying to keep my heart rate up, so I'm not necessarily resting more than a minute in between sets. And that's with my trainer's approval. It's not like I'm doing anything to hurt myself. But I do like to get sweaty. And I definitely think that each one of us has to kind of find what works best for me, maintaining muscle is really important, and I'm at a disadvantage.

Ironically, I was talking to Mark Hyman about this. Once you're in late perimenopause, early menopause, you're at a hormonal disadvantage about building muscle unless you're actively working against it. And so, that's why the strength training piece is so important. But I think, for me, I just stopped enjoying the CrossFit-type classes. I stopped enjoying those conditioning classes. I think there's a point to which you get the diminishing law of returns. And so, I think, for me, what I've learned is this is what works for me. I eat a carnivore-ish diet, so generally high in protein, lower in fat, so I do better with leaner meat and then the carbs. I've actually been experimenting more with low glycemic fruit and having a little bit more discretionary carbohydrates just to see how it impacts my sleep. And so, I've been pleasantly surprised.

This is the experiment of the N of 1. I'm not yet ready to say this applies to everybody, but I've been experimenting with more carbohydrates. Not a lot, but experimenting with more to see how it impacts my sleep quality and I've been pleasantly surprised, but not yet ready to share it's this much carbohydrate because I'm still experimenting. But I do find that when I carbohydrate cycle, I'm less likely to feel like I'm depriving myself. And I think everyone has to decide what makes them feel good. I don't do well with a high-fat diet. That's why traditional keto wouldn't work well for me.

I just don't feel good. I just recognize that I do better with leaner meat. And that's something that's been corroborated now by nutrigenomic testing, which is taking my genetics and looking at all the data, and ironically enough, without this person even knowing how I ate, she was telling me exactly my ideal way to eat. I was like, well that makes sense. At least that validates. I'm not crazy. [laughs] I know that you tend to be high protein, high carb, correct?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's so interesting because, I literally-- one of my first memories of us doing this show, actually, I think, is when you were sharing your diet, it was probably on this show, and you made the comment about the leaner meat piece which I feel is sort of rare because there's always all this emphasis on the fat part of things because people are so anti-carb often that people don't normally say that they eat leaner meat when they're existing. Not that we're doing keto, but in this sphere, if that makes sense. If you're in the low fat, you know obviously, like more vegan camp, you would be all vegans, wouldn't be eating meat anyways. But point is, it's like a vibe that I don't hear a lot. And I remember you saying that, and I was like, "Oh, it's like, me too," because yes so historically, I did go through a period of keto and very high fat.

Although, interestingly, it was really plant-based fats. Like, I basically would eat tons of coconut oil and lean meats. And then I switched to leaner meats. I basically just took out the fat. And then I brought back the carbs in the form of low glycemic fruits like you're mentioning and what's really interesting hearing about your nutrigenomic experience. When I do those tests, they actually say that I'm better with low carb and keto rather than the carb side of things. But intuitively, I just looking back at my timeline and again, I'm all about people need to find what works for them. So, I'm always hesitant to talk about what I eat or my diet history because I feel like people want to do what I'm doing exactly, which is not the takeaway message here. But what's interesting is that I was low carb for I wonder how long? Probably three years, maybe. And then I brought back the fruit and I literally just felt like my body was coming alive.

I was like, oh, my goodness. What's interesting is I do remember the very first few days I did feel like I got back into a little blood sugary type feeling or blood sugar swing feeling, but I was still fasting. I powered through it and then I very quickly adapted, and then I realized I'm just so much happier, like, having my carb up essentially every night with fruit and filling up those glycogen stores and then I sleep better. This is going to sound like very vague, but I just feel more lighter and glowy. I like the way fruit makes me feel hydrated, I think. I don't really have to hardcore stress about electrolytes as much as when I was low carb. For me, it works really, really well. And I still stay with the lean meats, the high protein. I don't really ever add fat, but I do eat salmon few times a week and that's actually pretty fatty. Do you add fats?

Cynthia Thurlow: But this is the only time you'll ever hear me utter this phrase, plant-based fats. But this is where-- no, and I'm not being snarky, I feel like I have to preemptively say, I do well with macadamia nuts, which I'm obsessed with. I do well with MCT oil, coconut oil, butter. I tolerate ghee. If I want nut butter or extra virgin olive oil or avocados, I do really well with those. But again, that's the one lever that I have to be the most careful with. And it drives my husband crazy because leaner, like beef, is more expensive. Sometimes our grocery bills are mitigated by the fact that half the house likes fatty meat and the other half doesn't. So, it's just one of those things. I think for everyone listening, you might do well with low carb, you might not. I think it's all about a degree of experimentation and being open minded.

Even though I'm not a traditional keto person, I sometimes get accused of being one, which I'm really not. I'm too high protein to be keto. But I do find that everyone should be open minded. If something's not working for you, that's okay. Like for me, I'm also someone that needs more electrolytes. If I'm doing low carb and I can tell on days when I'm depleting glycogen stores so stored sugar because I'm urinating more and I'm like, okay, I need more electrolytes to kind of hold on to some of that water. But it's being depleted because you're going lower carbohydrates, your body's kind of breaking down this glycogen source and you're urinating out not just sodium, but other electrolytes. But yeah, definitely a good point to honor what works best for you and not feel pressured to do something that doesn't make your body feel good, because if I were fully ketogenic, I probably would not be feeling as good as I do. But that's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, exactly. And I really encourage people to not lump all carbs into one basket. Like for me, for example, I do really well with the fruit. Like starches? No, if I eat starches, I fill up like a balloon with water retention and it messes with my energy levels. But some people do great with starches. That's perfect for them. Some people fruit is not their thing. I understand that starches and fruit are all glucose, sucrose, and fructose, but the ratio of them and whether or not they're complex or not can affect how your body breaks them down and processes them and then of course, there's the gut microbiome aspect. It's just so individual and so unique. I as well like you and I think we've talked about this before, but I do prefer for me plant-based fats. Interestingly the animal fats are very satiating for me, which is a good thing. But they just feel-- I think we talked about this before they just for me, I feel heavier in my body or something. I feel like I process the plant-based fats better. They don't seem to slow down my system if that makes sense.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I can't. The last time I had duck-fat fries, I just about vomited. They tasted delicious. Like 2 hours later I was like-- and let me just preemptively say my gallbladder is very healthy. My gallbladder, it's just the way that my body responds to animal-based fats. This is a perfect example of the N of 1 and experimenting to find what works best. If you're insulin sensitive, you have a lot more flexibility than if you don't. I think that's a big takeaway.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, definitely. Awesome. Okay. Thank you, Stephanie, for your question. Shall we go on to our next one?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Next question is Paul. "How to improve REM versus deep sleep as tracked on Oura? Specific strategies or supplements to improve either depending on what we seem to be getting enough of on a regular basis."

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Paul, well, thank you so much for your question. For people who don't have an Oura Ring, something that's really cool about it is you can see your different sleep stages throughout the night, like how long you spent in each stage. Again, it's using a lot of different data to determine that. It's not actually measuring your brain waves, but it does seem to have pretty intelligent AI in order to come up with those numbers. So, you might realize that you are lacking or that you might benefit from more of one certain type of sleep. So, REM sleep, I got a lot of information from this. I got a lot of information actually from Oura's website, appropriately enough. It's actually known as paradoxical sleep because it engages the body and the brain very similar to when you're awake, which is super cool. So, 80% of our dreams actually occur in REM sleep. I had written down the amount, it occurs every 90 to 120 minutes. Early adults should spend around 20% to 25% of their total time in REM sleep. The equivalent of that is basically if you're sleeping 7 to 8 hours, then you should have around 90 minutes in REM.

And the purpose of REM is that it seems to help with our brain health and our emotions and our mental wellness. It's basically like I said, it's when a lot of dreaming occurs. It's really important for-- if you have anxiety or emotional experiences during the day. It's when the brain basically deals with that and reduces the amygdala's response and can reduce your adrenaline. It can actually help you process the things that happen in our stressful life. So, it's really important for emotional balance. So, can you specifically increase REM? Yes and no. In general, stepping back, it's probably best to just focus on your entire sleep as a whole, rather than the very specific sleep stages, but I'm going to give a lot of caveats to that. And also, if you had some disorder understandably that affected a certain type of sleep, that would definitely be a different situation.

But in general, I think the best approach is just supporting sleep in general, which is a lot of the sleep habits that we talk about a lot on this show. I do all the crazy sleep things. But it's one reason I am so in awe, people like Cynthia traveling all the time because I need all of my sleep stuff to sleep well. So, things like a dark cool room and studies have actually shown, for example, that light exposure specifically affects REM and temperature specifically affects REM. So, specifically in REM, our core body temperature drops. So, already in general, having a cool sleeping environment is important for sleep, but especially for REM, it can be really important keeping it dark.

Blackout curtains can be game changers. I remember when Gin used to host this show, I would talk about blackout curtains all the time. The way it was with Gin was basically like, I would talk about something ad nauseam for weeks, months, often years, and then finally she would try it and totally be onboard. I remember the day she tried blackout curtains and she was like, why did it take her so long to do this? So, blackout curtains can be amazing. Sleep masks can be amazing. Speaking of the cooling piece, I use a cooling mattress. I use the OOLER. You use a cooling mattress, right.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm embarrassed to admit to the community that I was gifted an OOLER. We like, complete quiet with sleep, and neither one of us could talk. It was just these consistent noises drive me crazy. And so, it was the noise, it wasn't the coldness. Like I appreciated and liked that. We both liked that. But we actually gave it to a family member who doesn't mind. I mean, I completely believe in them, and I think they're a wonderful option provided you don't mind the noise.

Melanie Avalon: How long ago was that?

Cynthia Thurlow: That was gifted to me in 2021.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm just wondering if it's their newest one.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm assuming they probably have consistently but I have friends who love theirs. They were like, oh my God, you're going to love it. And after a week we're like, no, [laughs] but I do keep my house very cold at night so that definitely helps.

Melanie Avalon: I will say the one thing when I travel, of the rare occasions, the thing I miss the most is the OOLER because it is a game changer for me. It's amazing because noise aside, I wear earplugs and I don't hear anything with those, I will make a recommendation because it can be hard to find earplugs, especially for women if you have small ears. It's the Howard Leight spelled, I don't know if that's how you say it, spelled L-E-I-G-H-T. Women earplugs. They're pink. I've been using these for years, years, years, years, and they are amazing. So, we can put a link to those in the show notes. But, yeah, when I travel, the heat retention, like all of that heat building up in the covers, I just feel like I'm suffocating and what's really cool about the cooling mattress is you're not freezing. It's not uncomfortable. It just basically really pulls the heat out of your body that's building up.

So, you still get to use the covers and feel all warm and snugly, but the heat is not building up. I just find it a game changer for me. And then, some of the other things for sleep, well, obviously nice sleep habits like hygiene, winding down every night, turning off social media. I use red lights to light my apartment. This is something I always leave out of my sleep routine. And I should remember to say it more. On YouTube I love the Hertz Therapies that they have. I play this one called it sounds really woo-woo, but it's called Love Energy Open Heart Chakra. But it's 528 Hz frequency. I just play that and it plays for a long time. It's like a two-hour track. And then it typically just goes into other tracks that are also playing similar things and having that ambient sound that is that therapeutic hertz sound is incredible for me for winding down.

The power of sound, I don't think can be underestimated with its digital health effects, can't be overestimated. [laughs] And then just some last few quick things going back to specifically REM sleep, alcohol has been shown to delay REM sleep and lead to less REM sleep overall. Drinking right before bed probably not a good idea. Marijuana use increases deep sleep, but it can reduce REM sleep, which I realized I never said what REM stands for. It stands for rapid eye movement, which people are probably familiar with it's because people's eyes move back and forth rapidly during REM sleep. And then also caffeine can have an effect. So, if you're having caffeine close to bed, it can potentially invert your sleep cycle, which is kind of crazy. It can actually make REM happen earlier and slow wave happen later. So that's really interesting to me. This is really important. So, obviously, we always want to be focusing on sleep quality. This also might be a thing where sleep quantity is also really important.

I just really want people to focus on sleep quality in general, but REM does occur during the last couple of hours of sleep, so it's a thing where if you are getting just quantity wise less sleep, you're not giving yourself ample time to even get to REM sleep and get enough of it. So, it's something where it actually really is important. Like time in bed might be really important. And then to circle back to what I was talking about in the beginning, magnesium. GABA is really, really important for sleep, as is magnesium in supporting that process. And then magnesium, just as a standalone, it's been shown to be calming, relaxing, to support sleep. So, magnesium in general does this. And then like I was saying before, magnesium threonate is if you want one type of magnesium to really really support sleep, you really want magnesium threonate.

It's going to cross the brain and it's going to help induce sleep and have a relaxing effect, especially for people who are struggling to fall asleep and not wanting to deal with pharmaceuticals and things like that. This can be a really powerful supplement to support your sleep. I say it's natural. It is modified to be in that form. Like, we make it to be in that form to cross the blood-brain barrier. But it is magnesium, it's not like a pharmaceutical. So, like I was talking about in the beginning, if you're listening today, it's your last chance to get 15% off my Magnesium Nightcap, which is the magnesium threonate, just use the code NIGHTCAP15 at avalonx.us. If you're one of the lucky people that got the launch special from my Magnesium 8, which is my full spectrum broad blend, they'll have a 25% off code that they were uniquely emailed. If you're listening past the 17th, use the code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off. Or if you want a 20% off code, sorry for all the codes, text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay, that was a lot about sleep. Cynthia, what are your thoughts on REM?

Cynthia Thurlow: When it comes to sleep support? There's a lot I remind my patients to be thinking about sleep when they wake up in the morning. We know that even if you're not tracking sleep, it's helpful to just kind of lean into a lifestyle. A lot of things that Melanie did a really nice job explaining. Getting sunlight on your retinas, getting sunlight on your eyes first thing in the morning, usually within the first hour, getting five to ten minutes. You can sit outside and drink your coffee, walk your dogs, etc. That can be very beneficial. It helps suppress melatonin and increase cortisol. I think about the things that are lifestyle mediated, so getting physical activity every day, all of us would probably agree if we're sedentary all day long, you're not going to get as good as sleep. Our bodies are conditioned to move, even if that means you do water aerobics or you do Zone 2 training and just walk. Definitely very beneficial. In fact, sometimes I feel like my less intense workouts are the ones that help me sleep best.

In terms of things that I think are the greatest needle movers at night, I would concur a cold dark room. I wear a silk sleep mask every night. It's not sexy, but guess what? Light exposure on your eyes in the middle of the night can actually cause some wakening up. I think for many women, they sleep really well until 35, 40, and then all of a sudden, sleep starts to become a little bit more elusive, and you start to think about hormonal fluctuations, things that are changing in the body, less progesterone, which can impact sleep quality, certainly onset of sleep, certainly anxiety and depression, waking up anxious, waking up with your heart pounding. So, before I talk more about lifestyle things, I want to just mention if you're 35 or 40 and you're starting to see your sleep quality erode or you're 45 or 50 and you've been there for a long time, get your hormones checked.

Progesterone can be life-changing for a lot of people. Actually, I'm in the midst of doing a program through A4M and they validate a lot of things that I tell women. Oral progesterone is going to be sedating. It's going to help with sleep onset. It upregulates GABA, it upregulates this inhibitory neurotransmitter, which can be very, very helpful for sleep onset. The other piece is for a lot of women, and there's still a great deal of fear-mongering about hormones in general. I do find that for those that it's appropriate for, estradiol replacement can help with sleep duration. So, you fall asleep with progesterone and all the lifestyle things and then estrogen can help with kind of buffering that waking up in the middle of the night.

The other thing I would say is, if you're waking up and you're not getting good sleep quality and your REM and deep sleep are not ideal based on WHOOP band data Oura Ring data, I start to think about is it a blood sugar issue. There are a lot of women who are not insulin sensitive in their perimenopausal years into menopause. Glucometer CGMs can be very helpful for teasing out what's going on in addition to HRT. And then in terms of supplements, the supplement that has made the biggest net impact in my sleep quality is Myo-inositol. I know that we talked about that a few weeks ago when Scott and I did a podcast. It really has made such a huge impact and we know that helps with sleep architecture, both with falling and staying asleep.

It's actually part of Dr. Huberman's Labs, Andrew Huberman's Sleep Stack, which I think says a lot. It works for men and women, but that in and of itself, it also helps with insulin sensitivity, helps upregulate GABA, dopamine, serotonin, all these neurotransmitters that can help us fall asleep. And then beyond that, I would say, if appropriate melatonin could be very, very helpful for sleep. When I look at my sleep metrics on my Oura, and so I've been able to track two years' worth of metrics. The things that have been the needle movers are the things that Melanie and I have kind of talked about, but also the use of HRT and Myo-inositol for me personally I would say. I would also kind of tag in there other things that are helpful, soaking in magnesium. Usually, I do a magnesium soak, you can soak your feet, soak your body. There are ways to increase the absorption of magnesium through your skin.

I think many people remember I've talked extensively about the fact that I have this whole arrhythmia background in cardiology. And so, we were constantly tinkering magnesium levels, potassium levels with patients to lessen the likelihood they would go back into arrhythmias, dysrhythmias, etc. And so, magnesium is really important. There're different types of magnesium, as I know Melanie has talked about, but I like to use transdermal magnesium. The product Ancient Minerals does a nice job. I have no affiliation with them. They just have a nice high-quality product. You can buy it on Amazon.

Taking oral magnesium, I think can be very very helpful. I have like a sleep stack with Myo-inositol and then also magnesium L-threonate because that crosses the blood-brain barrier. But I would say those are good things to start with. But if you don't have great sleep metrics, I think it's more important that you reflect on how you feel and not get caught up in the metrics because I think some people live and die by their data and I just kind of look at it and go, oh, that's great. I had 3 hours of REM sleep, I had two and a half hours of deep sleep, that's fantastic. That's really good, especially for someone at my stage of life. But I think kind of being cognizant of the things that are going to be the big needle movers are important, but don't get caught up in the metrics. Just like, I would say that people shouldn't get caught up, like if they have a blood sugar spike on a CGM, like, you just look at and go, okay, that's good data to have. Let's not do that again. So, I think that that could be very helpful.

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Melanie Avalon: Yeah, you touched on so many good things. I'm so glad you brought in all of the physical activity piece, so much of supporting sleep at night is like being active during the day and with the early light exposure. I'm so glad as well what you just said, I think is so important because I think there's one thing that's really going to not help your sleep. It's going to be really stressing about your sleep. Ironically, all of this self-data quantification can sometimes have the effect of not helping because people are so stressed about the numbers. So, a reason I do like Oura's, I feel like it's very encouraging in how it talks to you. It doesn't really make me stressed. I was worried that it was going to make me stressed about things sleep wise, but it really doesn't seem to have that effect on me. I will say if there is like a crazy night where I know that it's going to be really bad and I have to do something the next day, which is a rare occasion, but it does happen. I just don't look-- Mostly this is like traveling, I just don't look at it that day. And then I did think of like two other things that made me think of, so I recently posted actually a poll on my Instagram about what were people's favorite sleep hacks. I wish I could remember what the results were. People did really like different supplements, sleep remedy. So, Dr. Kirk Parsley's sleep remedy is really amazing. That's the one supplement where people where when they did that poll, they were like messaging me that one specifically.

It's basically a combination of different, all-natural precursors to what your brain needs to fall asleep. It works synergistically to help you fall asleep. So, definitely check that out. You can go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the code MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount. And then also going back to the alcohol piece, I do think it's really important. I can't emphasize enough the importance of, if you are drinking alcohol to drink like, Dry Farm Wines. It's funny because people will say, I actually had this conversation on Instagram with somebody the other day.

They made a black and white blanket statement like; you can't sleep well and drink alcohol. I know for me that's not a true statement because if I drink Dry Farm Wines minimal to moderate consumption, not directly before bed, I sleep fine. Like, I can see it on my Oura Ring. I think if you are drinking alcohol, doing it in a way that is not detrimental to your sleep. Not drinking right before bed and a lot of the conventional alcohol and wine in the US is just not good. It's high in sugar, high in alcohol, high in additives. I've said this a lot. But if the wine is making your teeth red, that is not from the grapes. That is because there is a dye added to the wine called Mega Purple.

So, we do not want this stuff in our body and I think it can have a pretty detrimental effect on our health. That's why I personally love dry farm wines. They are low sugar, low alcohol, and I found that having them I can sleep well, I can have my drink and drink it too. Our link for them is dryfarmwines.com/ifpodcast and that will get you a bottle for a penny, which is awesome. Anything else about the sleep thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I think we've got it. Do we have time for one more?

Melanie Avalon: Or we could share our announcement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: How should we share the announcement? We did not plan this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Maybe I'll just say it.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Sure.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Melanie knows what I'm going to share next, but I preemptively want to thank Melanie and Gin and the IF podcast team and the IF podcast community for an amazing last 10 months of being a cohost and welcoming me so graciously and so openly. My business is kind of shifting in a different direction and so I will be stepping down from the cohosting duties with IF podcast at the end of April. And we already have another cohost and I'm going to let Melanie share that news next week. But I wanted to make sure that listeners heard it from me directly. I haven't talked about it on social media, I won't talk about it on social media until after the announcement comes out, but I want to just wholeheartedly thank everyone for so much love and support. My team and I have been really overwhelmed with wonderful messages and lots and lots of support and it's been a really fun last 10 months.

Melanie Avalon: I know that's a big announcement for listeners, but I just wanted to emphasize how wonderful this whole journey has been. I feel like it really took the show in a new direction. I so love the-- Well, first of all, our friendship. I really appreciate your support and friendship and everything and so it was just really thrilling to do the show together. I really love the clinical perspective that you have brought to everything. I feel like we had a lot of questions building up that, honestly, we just wouldn't really touch on the show because prior to you being on the show, we didn't have knowledge or expertise to really talk about all of these things that women experience so much with their hormonal issues and perimenopause and menopause and all of this stuff. So, it was really exciting to really be able to provide that resource to listeners. I just really want to thank you for everything that you brought to the show. It's been really amazing. You'll be so missed, but it'll be open door. You'll have to come back for like a reunion episode at some point.

Cynthia Thurlow: And I would love that. I hope listeners know that Melanie and I are genuinely good friends and super supportive of one another and none of that will change. That was one of the first things I said to Melanie when I shared this news that this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I know that the new cohost, I was really delighted to hear who the new cohost would be. I think you all will be very, very pleased with who this is. I'm not going to give any more details than that because it's not my place to share, but I wanted to make sure that everyone knew this is not a breakup. This is just a pause. I think that one thing I've learned in the past two years is that I have to really hold true to the direction my business is going in, and I think with the book last year, things were a whirlwind, a wonderful whirlwind.

But now things have kind of settled back down. It's like, okay, what are the things I need to be focusing in on? My kiddos are getting older and I have one who will be heading to college, gosh, in just over a little bit of a year and another in three and a half years, so getting really deliberate with my time. But thank you, Melanie. It's been such a pleasure to be able to cohost with you and be able to interact with these amazing, amazing listeners and community that you and Gin built.

Melanie Avalon: No, thank you. Thank you, really. I was thinking about it just now with Gin, she's not really in the biohacking sphere, so she has her fasting community, but it's a massive community. It's more a bubble that I'm not in quite as much because it's a slightly different audience, whereas I think you and I were in a very similar audience. The point of that is I think we're going to be talking all the time and we'll be running into each other probably a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. That's what we keep saying eventually we're going to meet in person, but that hasn't happened yet. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'm sure we will in some conference or something. I need to start going to things more.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, you do.

Melanie Avalon: I'm working on it. [laughs] Give me your travel skills, please.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, I love to travel. Let's just put it this way. We have a trip coming up next week and then I have another trip right after for business. And I'm always planning the next trip. Like, I just planned a trip for next November for my family, like, over a long weekend. It's like, that's just my mentality. It's like, let's keep traveling. So, it's fun.

Melanie Avalon: I'm very jealous like I said. If I didn't have the stress aspect that I get with disrupting my life because I love actually being at the places, it's like everything surrounding it. So yeah, listeners, stay tuned. Hopefully, if you're on the email list, you might have actually already received the announcement about the new cohost, but make sure you get on our email list. If not, you can get on that at ifodcast.com for listeners. You can get everything that we talked about in today's show in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode213. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. They will have links to everything that we talked about. We talked about a lot of things, so that will be very, very important. You can submit your own questions for the show by emailing questions@ifpodcast.com or going to ifpodcast.com and submitting questions there.

Like I said, we're not mentioning the cohost now, but I do think it's out there. If you already know who the cohost is and you'd like to submit specific questions for that person, feel free to do so. Yeah, I think that is all the things. Oh yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and we are @ifpodcast. So okie-dokie. Well, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. See you on our last episode.

Melanie Avalon: I know, crazy. Well, I will see you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

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