Apr 09

Episode 312: Creatine, Exercise, Chronic Cardio, Fasting and Menstruation, NSAIDS, Low Dose Aspirin, ApoB, Statins, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 312 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

AVALONX magnesium 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle.  Get on the email list to stay up to date with all the special offers and news about Melanie's new supplements at Avalonx.Us/emaillist, and use the code melanieavalon for 10% on any order at Avalonx.Us and MDlogichealth.com!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

4:00 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:45 - AVALON X MAGNESIUM: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

16:30 - Listener Q&A: michelle - Does Creatine Break a Fast?

16:30 - Listener Q&A: Gwen - Does Creatine break your fast?

Episode 292: Creatine, Brain Health, Sex Hormones, Muscle Building, Insulin Sensitivity, Sarcopenia, Andropause, Mood, Motivation, BDNF, And More!

Introducing... Creatine By Cynthia Thurlow

23:00 - Listener Q&A: Laura - Question

40:00 - Listener Q&A: Kristen- If and Periods; Does taking ibuprofen or Tylenol break a fast? 

50:55 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

52:05 - Listener Q&A: Lauri - If Your current self and knowledge could go back in time to your younger self what would you do differently knowing what you know now as far as career and life hacks.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 312 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine and I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, some of which are clean fast friendly for free. Yes, for free. It's not just me who is obsessed with these electrolytes. You guys are so obsessed as well. Honestly, every time I post about LMNT electrolytes, so many people overwhelmingly comment about how much they love them. I'm just going to read some random comments for example, here's one. "LMNT is the greatest thing ever. My friends and I drink one a day. It's our treat. We are ER nurses and know how important electrolytes are." Here's another. "My pack is on the way. I've been drinking it for a while. It is my new favorite thing during my eating window. I will be starting training for the Honolulu Marathon next week. So, this is perfect for my electrolyte balance." Here's another. "I think chocolate LMNT in hot water is my favorite now, it's like hot chocolate and then we always just have a sprinkling of I love LMNTs."

The more I research, and the more I study, the more I realize just how important electrolytes are. They are key for cellular function. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. That's why LMNT can help prevent and eliminate headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and so many other things related to electrolyte deficiency. Athletes, for example, can lose up to 7 grams of sodium per day. If that sodium is not replaced, it is very common to experience muscle cramps and fatigue. But friends, it is not just athletes. Electrolytes can help everyone, whether it's after a few glasses of wine, "Oh, hey," keeping an active lifestyle, or especially if you are fasting or doing a keto diet, electrolytes may be key.

That's because both fasting and the keto diet specifically deplete electrolytes. But here's the thing, so many electrolytes on the market are full of so many things that you don't want. We're talking fillers, junk, sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, things you don't want to be putting in your body. That's why I love LMNT. It has none of that. It contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio of 1000 milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium, and 60 milligrams of magnesium. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's right, you can get eight single-serving packets for free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. The raw unflavored version, by the way, is clean fast friendly. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash ifpodcast. And LMNT offers, no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose, drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, everybody and welcome. This is episode number 312 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you today?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I did something sort of fun. I'm curious. Do you like jazz music?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I definitely do. I got into that in my 20s when I was trying to drown out the noise of the street and study. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, now another tangent. [laughs] I'm reading a book right now called Golden: The Power of Silence in a World of Noise. And it's really funny because right before that, the book I read-- this was just complete happenstance, and this is all to interview people. So, the book before that was called Sentient, which blew my mind. Oh, my goodness. It was all about the different senses in animals and how it compares to humans and what we can learn from that. I didn't realize we have so many senses. And we do not just have five senses. We have like a ton, it's debated, but it's like up in the teens or maybe 20s. Can you think of some other ones? Besides the five?

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, I could talk about something that's not tangible, intuition. I do think about that on an energetic level. But that's another aspect of sensing information, energy, etc.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, they didn't talk about any intuition senses, I don't think, but there're so many. There's like with touch, it's not just touch there's temperature sensing, there's pain sensing. So that's like two more right there. When it comes to sight, there's different types of sensing. There's like with sleep, for example, part of our eyes that have light informing our circadian rhythm, that's like a different sense. And it's not related to seeing. It's literally just the light-activating melanopsin cells that inform our circadian rhythm. So, that's technically a sense. There's a sense of balance. There's a sense of "Oh, I love this one, what's it called pracio--"

Cynthia Thurlow: Proprioception.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, proprio-- yeah whatever you just said, which is basically knowing where one of your body parts is?

Cynthia Thurlow: In time and space.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. And he talks about these fascinate-- Okay, some people-- There have been these times that have happened where people have not had that sense. There was this guy, and just one day, I don't know what happened, but he just lost that sense. And so, all of a sudden, he didn't know where his different body parts are. He could inform it if he could see his limb. That's how he taught himself to live without this sense. He couldn't walk when it first happened because he didn't know where his feet were. But eventually, he learned if he could watch, he could walk and stuff like that. But if he didn't, so if he had his hand-- like if he was watching his arm, he could direct his arm and make it do things. But if he wasn't watching his arm, it would just, like, do stuff. [laughs] Like it would just, like, move around [laughs] which I just find so funny. The animal they were talking about in relation to that, and sorry, this is so random. I just find it so fascinating. So, like, the octopus, for example, they think it has local, whatever that word is, proprioception.

Cynthia Thurlow: Proprioception.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. [laughs] I need to learn it before I interview. Their tentacles probably have that sense locally. So, when an octopus is doing stuff, all of its arms can do different things, and it's not really even aware unless it's looking at the arm and doing it on purpose. If you cut off an octopus' arm, it will actually keep doing stuff for a little bit. Like, it'll keep picking up stuff and try to feed it to the octopus, and they know it's intuitive. Like, they know it's not just muscle memory because they've done a study where they'll cut off an octopus' arm or tentacle, they'll give it normal food, and then like poison food, and the tentacle will only interact with the normal food and try to feed it back to the head that's no longer there.

So, that was such a tangent, it's a really fascinating book, Sentient. Oh, but the point of that was I read that, and then the next book I'm reading now is called Golden and it's about silence, which is the opposite, but not really because they kind of relate because they're both talking about our senses, which all goes back to what you were saying, which was trying to drown out the noise. The reason I brought that up was I went to really spontaneously, a friend from college came in town and we found this really nice jazz club where they do like dinner and drinks, and it was like super classy. I love just doing completely random stuff like that. It was not planned. There were two tickets left. We're just going to do this. It was a Fleetwood Mac jazz band. It was a great time, so yeah. Do you like doing super spontaneous random stuff?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's harder because we have kids and dogs. There's not a ton of spontaneity, although I think this summer, we're going to have both the boys in-- one's going to be an engineering camp at Duke and the other one will be kind of in an entrepreneurial Duke program. We'll have overlap where both the kids are going to be away at the same time. I said to my husband, this is wild. [laughs] Never are home by ourselves for extended periods of time. So, this will be interesting, maybe then we'll be able to do something totally spontaneous. But no, not a lot of spontaneity over the last 18 years because of kids and dogs and all sorts of stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I can imagine. Well, you have to let me know if you do some fun stuff then.

Cynthia Thurlow: Definitely.

Melanie Avalon: Anything new in your life?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a whole lot. We're getting ready to-- by the time these airs, we will have just gotten back from our spring break vacation. So, I'm really looking forward to going to Portugal. And we've got a really fun itinerary. It's like one of my favorite things to do as a family is to vacation with them. By the time this is airing, we will have just gotten back from Portugal, which should be a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon: Very exciting. I cannot wait to hear about all the things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

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Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, we have two questions, which are the same question. One comes from Michelle and the subject is, "Does creatine break a fast?" Michelle says, "Hi, Melanie and Cynthia, I love your podcast. This may be a question you've already answered, and if so, could you direct me to the episode?" I will say really quickly for people, if you go to ifpodcast.com there's a search bar and we have transcripts of all the episodes so you can search, and if we talked about it is probably on the website. That search bar is actually very effective, because some websites searches are not very good, but ours works pretty well. Okay, so she says, "I am wondering about how to utilize creatine on days of extended fasting. For example, if I plan to do a 36 to 42-hour fast once or twice a week, how does creatine factor into that? Will creatine stop autophagy in its tracks? If I take it on my down day, extended fast day, and/or is it okay to not take creatine once or twice a week, and how will that affect the storage levels of creatine in my body overall?" If the purpose of autophagy is to use junk proteins in my body to create new proteins, wouldn't I want to encourage autophagy, even if that meant not taking creatine for a day or two? I'm a 58-year-old postmenopausal woman who began intermittent fasting eight months ago. I'm active and fit for my age and regularly engage in strength training as well as cardio activities, running, and biking. I also hike and walk a lot with my two dogs. I implemented some extended fast into my protocol due to a fasting insulin level of 44.4," wow, "which decreased to 3.3 within three months." Wow. That's wow. Okay. [laughs] She says, "I have a history of both type 1 and 2 diabetes in my family, so the fasting insulin was not a surprise." Thank you so much for your podcast. I learned so much from you both. I would just comment really quickly that's incredible that in three months, your insulin went from 44.4 to 3.3. Crazy. And then Gwen says, "Does creatine break your fast?" So, this is definitely a Cynthia question.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Michelle, thank you for your question and Gwen, I would point you in the direction in terms of creatine information to Episode 292 that I did with Scott Emmens, the COO of MD Logic, and there's a lot of really helpful information in there. I think my general recommendations about creatine for women are that we want to aim to take it daily because we make 70% to 80% less creatine than men. We know, based on research, that women that are having a menstrual cycle as well as perimenopausal, menopausal women, we have fluctuations in our needs throughout the month.

Obviously, menopausal women, you're not having as much hormonal flux, but we still benefit from a brain health and metabolic health perspective. I generally recommend that you take it in a feeding window because it will stop autophagy. If you are doing extended fast, I would recommend that you just skip taking creatine on that day. I do think it's important to be consistent. If it's a day where you're not lifting weights, you still want to take creatine as well as on days that you are lifting weights. I think it's amazing that you've had such improvement in your fasting insulin levels. To go from 44 to 3 is pretty significant in such a short span of time. So, congratulations and kudos for taking such good care of your health and certainly we're so glad to know that you enjoy the podcast.

Big takeaways are take creatine in your feeding window. If you are doing an extended fast, you can hold the creatine because it will technically break a clean fast. But with that being said, consistency is really where you see the most benefits. I have a 70-year-old, very petite client/friend of mine who weighs 90 pounds, who can actually do a leg press of over 300 pounds after taking consistent creatine. And so, it's really amazing. It's not just something that benefits younger women, it benefits all women. But a great question, so thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon: Do you know about her question about storage levels of creatine? Does the body store creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: We have 70% to 80% less endogenous creatine, which is why it is very important that we supplement. You don't get enough from your diet. I don't care how much steak you eat, you cannot replete to the same degree that men can, so yes you will-- Creatine monohydrate is something that's up-taken by our muscles, but the benefits come from taking it on a daily basis. That's why I haven't missed taking a dose in, gosh, like 16 months. I think it's really made a big difference in not just sleep, but also in how I'm able to lift heavy at the gym, which is important to me because I want to maximize muscle protein synthesis. So, like, the nutrition, the creatine, the lifting heavy, all are really integral and important to be able to do that. But yeah, you have a lot less storage capacity as a female, which is why you can't eat enough creatine-laden foods, and that's why exogenous creatine is so important.

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. And how can people get your creatine?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, really easy. If you go to my website, it's www.cynthiathurlow.com/creatine and you will have direct access. Right now, we just started a subscription service and that's been really well received. People are excited to be able to get discounts on purchasing and knowing that they will never run out. Because I know that I sometimes forget I'm running out of supplements and then I have to wait a week or two until I get new ones. This just makes it very easy and seamless.

Melanie Avalon: I love the subscription options. By the time these airs, we will have like, mm, a few weeks ago launched. We're testing out a larger bottle subscription option for Serrapeptase and then hopefully extend it to the other supplements as well. But always just trying to make things even more sustainable because right now with the bottle supplements, the subscription, you basically get three bottles at once for a few months. So, then you're saving on shipping and it's better for the environment and all that. But now we're taking it one step further and doing a large bottle. So, yes, definitely subscriptions are the way to go for all the products if it's something that's in your daily life, and they usually have a built-in discount. I'm assuming that Creatine has a built-in discount with the subscription.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. All righty. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Laura. Subject is question. I stumbled across your books, podcasts, and community about a month ago after rereading the Obesity Code. I absolutely, but not literally ate your books up and then read them again. I've always been an intermittent faster 19/5, however, never realized that's what I was doing. I was also exercising three to five times per week. I stayed a small size eight, Australian size, for about eight years until the pandemic, when I went from approximately 62 to 63 kg to 73 kg. I was eating excessively to cope with my work and overall stress. It was my heaviest weight ever, I felt horrible.

I dragged myself back to the gym when restrictions eased and went low carb, which I still do the majority of the time, with the exception of chocolate on Shark Week, you know when that is and special events. When I read your books and connected the dots that this was what I have always done but never knew, I was beyond thrilled. I immediately started. I had structure and abundance in information, and I knew my body loved this way of eating. I don't weigh myself, but I can see that I am down at least two pant sizes with a combination of intermittent fasting, low-carb-ish diet, and continue to work out about three times a week in addition to walking my dogs. My body has been used to four to five days of exercise, weights, walking, and cardio class. But as I work as a nurse around the clock, and I'm getting older at 37, I would prefer to keep my exercise less vigorous and control my weight through my diet as much as possible, with exercise adding to my health and not dictating it.

A very long intro for a short question, I apologize, but during the weight-loss period, how much exercise do you recommend and also in maintenance? My thigh area is really the hardest to budge, and I don't want to run 35 km a week or train five days to slim them down again. Love all the way from Australia, Laura.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Laura. Well, thank you for your question. Cynthia, do you ever watch Shark Week?

Cynthia Thurlow: I used to when my kids were younger.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I-- it was never really my thing, but I actually-- [laughs] a guy that I dated for quite a while, he did a segment once on it. I think he went in a cage. I don't know why he was doing that, but he went in a cage and like, oh, that's what he did. He built a suit to swim with the sharks not in a cage. He was a magician. So, fun times.

Cynthia Thurlow: Did I ever tell you that when I was in South Africa with my husband for our 10th wedding anniversary, we did shark diving?

Melanie Avalon: No. With great whites?

Cynthia Thurlow: They chum the water. Do you know what chum is? It's like--

Melanie Avalon: No, what does that mean?

Cynthia Thurlow: Bits of fish and innards they throw in the water to attract blood. They attract sharks. No need to ever do that again.

Melanie Avalon: Was it scary?

Cynthia Thurlow: I was more freaked out that I had a head-toe wetsuit on. Like, I just felt like sensory wise, I was so fixated on the fact-- and they put a weight belt on me, I'm not a big person, and they were concerned I wasn't going to be able to get to the bottom of the cage. And I just remember as soon as there was an opportunity to get out of said cage, I was happy to never do that again. I mean, the sharks come right up to you. It's not like they're far away. It was a very interesting experience; one I don't ever need to do again. I have great respect for sharks. I don't need to connect with them in that capacity ever again. But my husband was delighted. He thought it was the coolest thing ever.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, wait, so to get into the cage, do you get into the cage where it's like-- [crosstalk]

Cynthia Thurlow: From the boat on the top.

Melanie Avalon: Where the sharks are going to be before they chum them, call them over.

Cynthia Thurlow: The cage is attached to the boat, and the people that take you out, I mean, they're conservationists, so they're very conscientious about-- you know they're the people that are out studying the sharks. The unfortunate thing is, I've now heard I mean, we will have been married for 20 years this year, so 10 years ago, there were still quite a bit of sharks outside of the Cape Town area, and now there aren't as many. And so, people may desire to go out and do that kind of activity, but there's no guarantee they'll actually see sharks. So, yeah, you're in a cage attached to the side of the boat in a head-toe wetsuit with a weight belt, and then you get to watch. It's kind of surreal. I mean the whole time I kept thinking, I don't want to leave my children, orphans. I want to make sure we get back from South Africa. Definitely not, like my husband thought it was awesome. I think I was completely exhausted from the stress. Definitely not the most enjoyable thing I've ever done.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah, that would not be my thing. [laughs] How long were you down in the cage?

Cynthia Thurlow: Like 15 or 20 minutes.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, okay, that's cool. [laughs] That's up there for cool things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Totally bizarre. So, yeah, when you talk about Shark Week, I'm like Ah-Ha [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I think the things out of all the nature things that you can do, I think the thing that would freak me out the most that I just could not do would be the cave where you crawl through really small cave spaces.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm claustrophobic, that would be a .

Melanie Avalon: I would literally have a panic attack. I could not do that, because I remember my parents in Hawaii, they did one where-- I think it was, you went and looked at some really nice caves, but you had to crawl to get to them through these tunnels. And I was like, nope. So, I could do like hot air-- have you done a hot air balloon?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. You know it's funny, we've done a lot of pretty adventurous stuff, but there are definitely things that we have not officially done. And that would be another one. I think we had talked about doing that in Turkey, but given the humanitarian crisis there and in Syria, I'm not sure that's going to happen either. But that's okay.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Would you do Skydiving?

Cynthia Thurlow: We've done Skydiving. I mean, I've done it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you've done it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I mean, we've done quite a bit-- when I tell you, especially having boys, there's just a lot of stuff that you have to get comfortable with, like cave diving and I mean, we've done it all. That was definitely like my kids think going to-- there's Costa Rica trip we took December of 2021. They'll always talk about how that's one of their favorite vacations ever. It was the vacation where I said, I will never do this again. [laughs] They thought it was awesome. I'm like, no thanks. I don't need to be wet for like two days straight, nope.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. And was skydiving scary?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, but not as much as the shark stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay.

Cynthia Thurlow: It was just a lot. So, I think it's all relative. You know for me. We do our research, we make sure that we're going with qualified people. For me, it was like trusting in the process. There's so much of just letting go.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. If I had to, I could do skydiving. Going back to you talking about putting on that suit, it's more the things you have to wear in these different adventures that I don't like. That's usually like the thing. I don't know, putting in all the gear and getting up there and the effort required to make it happen is what I don't like so much. But if I just popped up in the top of a plane and they were like, okay, jump out now, I probably could, but I don't seek it out. So, okay, Laura, so thank you for mentioning Shark Week, because that is what happens with that.

So, to answer your question, first of all, congrats on your lifestyle approach and everything. I love what you said about how with exercise specifically, you want to control your weight through your diet as much as possible with exercise adding to your health and not dictating it. And I think that is such a beautiful approach to exercise.

So many people do turn to chronic cardio and exercise as the modality to lose weight. I just feel like it's pretty consistently shown that that approach, like, solely exercise. So, trying to burn off calories at the gym is not the most effective way to lose weight. The body is, especially when it's like long at longer durations of exercise. And actually, Dave Asprey, who I am interviewing week after next, I think. Thank you, Cynthia, for that reconnection. His new book called Smarter Not Harder I think. He talks all about this. So, when you're putting your body into longer term approaches of stress like exercise, in order to lose weight, that just doesn't give the body the signals it needs to get the results that you want compared to short, punctuated, intense, basically gives you much more bang for your buck.

The reason I say all of that is when it comes to weight loss and exercise, I would err on the side of-- you know if you're going to do it being super way more effective with it. Things like HIIT, interval training, high-intensity interval training, and going hard and fast, really short and then recovering rather than like this chronic exercise, which is probably not going to give you the results that you want.

Of course, that's different from people who approach it just because they really love it. Like some people love running and they do want to run a 35 km stint or they do want to train multiple days a week. If that's what you do because it makes you happy, go for it. If your main goal is weight loss, that's not the approach I would take. It sounds like with you, Laura, that you don't want to be doing this really intense exercise. So, I would definitely say don't worry about it. 

Especially you're a nurse, you're working around the clock, so you're getting a lot of physical activity and physical movement, which is great. So, when it comes to the exercise side of things, I would recommend actually focusing on muscle and strength training if you're going to do things like that. Because maintaining our muscles is so key for longevity, health, and for weight, because by creating muscle, that actually does help you burn fat, raises your metabolism, makes you more toned, just has so many benefits.

So, I would focus more on the strength training side of things. And then when it comes to exercise, for-- she asked about the weight loss period versus the maintenance period. Again, I actually go back to what I was just saying and that I wouldn't use exercise as like the weight loss key. So, I wouldn't even really think in those terms. I would focus like you're doing on your diet and your fasting and your lifestyle and your sleep, which being a nurse, I don't know how your sleep is, but I would focus on all of that as the pillar or the foundation, and then add in exercise in a way that makes you happy. Whatever helps with your stress and then for the actual weight loss, focusing on more interval-type approaches and the strength training side of things. So, Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean, this is a 37-year-old female and I think it's really important to understand what's starting to happen physiologically in our bodies towards the beginning of perimenopause. So, late 30s, early 40s is when most women are hitting that time period in their lives. I think it's really important to not be over fasting, to not be over restricting, to not be over exercising, which is a problem that I see in a lot of women. Understanding when to fast during your menstrual cycle and when you should not be fasting and I do a great deal of discussion about this in my book Intermittent Fasting Transformation.

I think that it's much more important that you are doing things like Zone 2 training and also weight training. I think that's far more important than doing chronic cardio. And you have to do stuff that you enjoy. If you're saying that you're running 35 km a week and then you're also training on top of that, that sounds like that's a lot of stress that you're putting your body under. And there are times in your menstrual cycle when you can get away with a lot of training and times when you need to back off. Again, I talk about this a lot in the book. I just think you have to be attuned to understanding the role of estrogen and progesterone and how you can eat and train for both those hormones and the menstrual cycle.

So, more focusing on targeted weight training and Zone 2 training. Some nurses are active and some are not, so it really depends clinically where you're working. I know that people that are in certain areas of the hospital, they may just be standing all day long, versus an ER nurse is going to be doing a lot of movement, versus an ICU nurse may just be one-on-one with one patient. I think a lot of it comes down to where are you in your menstrual cycle. Understanding that the over fasting, too much low carb, too much over exercising can really put your body under quite a bit of stress.

And it sounds like you're very nicely attuned to the influences of what works well for you and what does not. And especially during the pandemic, noticing that once you're able to get back to the gym, you could kind of get back into a rhythm and a routine. I think that's probably the best recommendations I have is to make sure that you acknowledge our own physiology as a component of successful fasting and exercise management. But I don't think any of us should think that exercise is the way to attain the body that you want.

I think we have to really understand that lifestyle, the sleep, the stress management, the right types of nutrition are going to be the most important component. And then exercise should be one way that we support our bodies but it shouldn't be the one lever that we push in an effort to stay a certain size. Over time, you'll just find that that's not as effective or as efficacious.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I definitely made a big assumption there about the nurse that she was the type that's moving around a lot, but that could manifest a lot of different ways. You do go to the gym and do like weights, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do, three days a week. That's like usually the goal. And I've also been doing more Pilates as well.

Melanie Avalon: Do you work with a trainer for the weights?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have a trainer, but I work with her app, so I'm pretty self-motivated. I acknowledge that probably makes me weird, but she monitors what I'm doing in the app and so that's worked really well for me because very much when I go to the gym, it's not a social experience. I like to get in and get out. I'm very deliberate and it's just not a social experience for me. I'm certainly friendly, but I'm not there to hang out with girlfriends. I'm there to get in and get like a 30 to a 45 minutes workout done and then get back out so that I can get my work day started.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm not, I am not a gym person, and it was never a social thing. I have a mirror gym thing, and I don't use it. I really should try it. Wait, you said Pilates. I should try it for Pilates just to see if I like it or tai chi or something. I feel like if I got into a habit of it, I might like it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I definitely like it. I actually preferred solid core, which I found more challenging, but there's not a studio that's really close to where we live, it's a little bit of a drive, so Pilates has kind of taken the place of that. But I've kind of gravitated towards the instructors that are just a little more tough because I like that challenge. There's definitely a mental challenge to be engaging your core as much as you do. And I definitely enjoy the social aspect of seeing certain people in those classes, but I tend to be a lone wolf. I like to do my own thing, and I think as an introvert, it's kind of like why I don't really bring social media into the gym with me. I may take a photo, but I'm never going to be that person who's going to feel comfortable with someone filming me in the gym, because that's my time. That's my decompression time.

Melanie Avalon: My version of the gym. I do the EMSCULPT a lot and where I go, which I love. So, Slim Studio in Atlanta, plugging them, they often say that they want me to do promotional videos or things like that. I'm like, I just want to come here this is like, my me-time. I don't want a camera. I don't want to like get dressed up.

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think it's also important to just honor who you are as an individual. Like, I'm an introvert, so for me I acknowledge that on social media there are things I do share, but there are a lot of things I don't. Another example is people always want to know, give us a house tour, show us what your house looks like. And my kids don't want that. They want some degree of privacy. So, I think there's probably a happy medium. And I know businesses love to have their place of business featured on social media, but I just remind people that everyone's got a different comfort level, and I'm sure the extroverts of the world, they're totally fine with that. I think you have to be true to who you are and do what makes you feel most comfortable.

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Well, our next question actually relates to something that you were just talking about a little bit. So, this is good timing. So, Kristen has two questions and the first one is, "Is it wise to fast while on your period given the fluctuations in hormones?" So, this is something that we just talked about, but do you have any other thoughts if you wanted to add to that piece Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I talk about this extensively in the book. You don't want to fast five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle for a variety of reasons. This is really a time to back off on fasting, no more than 12 to 13 hours. And depending on the individual, some people feel well enough to start fasting again once they start menstruating. Really dependent on the woman, I've met several women who've just said that they just feel weak until they get to the end of their menstrual period. But 12 to 13 hours is certainly reasonable.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Okay. And then her second question. She wants to know, "Does taking ibuprofen or Tylenol break a fast?"

Cynthia Thurlow: I think the real question should be, everything I've ever read and certainly directions that I've given to patients is that anti-inflammatory agents like Motrin, like Aleve, like ibuprofen, should be taken with food to help buffer the impact on the gut microbiome. And Tylenol is another product. Years and years ago, we used to use quite a bit of it in the ER, and I think the safety and efficacy of Tylenol just really gives me pause. In fact, we don't even carry it in my house anymore, so I would definitely take that with food. I would avoid taking it in a fasted state. It really depletes glutathione, which is a master antioxidant in the body. Years ago, when we used to use 3 to 4 grams with patients, we now know that everyone has a different therapeutic index for Tylenol or acetaminophen. And so, I generally recommend avoiding it or using it in very limited quantities and not certainly at larger doses.

Melanie Avalon: How do you feel about low-dose aspirin?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think of aspirin differently. I mean, it works differently than NSAIDs and acetaminophen. It's interesting because I'm in the midst of a big cardiac workup, which is kind of a surprise. I'm having a coronary artery calcium score done on Thursday, and I'm doing a CIMT, which is this carotid intima-media thickening to kind of look at my carotids. I think aspirin is pretty benign, but like, a baby aspirin, I think, is fairly benign. When I fly, if I'm doing long distances, I'll take a baby aspirin. It just helps with the antiplatelet function. To me, I think of that as much more benign than some of these other drugs.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so fascinated by aspirin. It's one of those things. So, I take an aspirin daily, but I know it's debated. I know recently they released some study saying that these benefits of aspirin were not accurate or whatever. I need to do a deeper dive into the literature. But, yeah, it's something I'm always curious about with the cardio workup. Do you have thoughts on ideal ApoB levels?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, ideally, I think under 70 or under 80 is what we're ideally looking for. I think when it's elevated above that, it isn't, per se, a knee-jerk reaction that someone needs to be on a statin agent or needs to be on aspirin. But it does beg the question of what else could be driving inflammation in the body, number one. Number two is, do they have latent cardiovascular disease that they're just not aware of? And interestingly enough, my ApoB has always been under that threshold. But the last bit of labs we did, it was 130. And so, my functional medicine doc is kind of at a loss. He said I feel obligated to do some testing just by virtue of the fact that there's some degree of inflammation. We don't know what's driving it.

So, my lipids otherwise look pretty good. We did Lp(a), we did ApoB, we did my fasting insulin is 3, you know my A1c is low, my high-sensitivity CRP is low. So, we're not sure if it's just this, errant lab value or there's something else going on. So, I've got a little bit of a work up coming up in the near future, this week and next week that I had to kind of begged to get squeezed in because I was like, I'm not waiting until next month. I need you to do these tests now so that we don't need to be concerned about this.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so fascinated by it. So, this has haunted me. I don't know if you listened to this Peter Attia's recent episode all on ApoB, I'd be really curious your thoughts on this. He was talking about the ideal levels that you would need for ApoB to be a centenarian. He basically said that it probably needs to be something that is only achievable with statins, so like 30s or 20s. I was like, "Oh, do I need to get on a statin?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the side effects of statins are pretty significant. My functional medicine, integrative Medicine doc is not a fan of using them at all. We talked about would it be cholestyramine, would it be Zetia? I think the cognitive net impact of a statin agent is something that has to really be carefully evaluated before people just think of it as this benign entity. Unfortunately, there's just too much research to demonstrate that there can be potential harmful impact of being on long-term statin therapy. I've certainly watched family members that have been on statins that have had some significant cognitive decline, which has been concerning as a clinician and as a family member as well.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, I was thinking all about it not about getting a statin, but so Inside racker, they're actually a sponsor on today's episode and I was trying to find-- I don't think we have the link for them yet, but I think it's probably-- so listen to the ad in today's episode to confirm or check the show notes. I think it's probably going to be insidetracker.com/ifpodcast probably with the coupon code IFPODCAST. They just recently released an ApoB test, which was really exciting because I had been dying to test mine and I feel like it's just not very common something that doctors test.

So, they added it to their ultimate plan, which is their entire order of biomarkers related to longevity and you can add on this inner age thing where you get a sense of your "True biological inner age." But it was nice to see that. So, my ApoB level, I'd have to double-check. It was in the 70s, so that was really interesting to see. But the coupon code hopefully IFPODCAST will get you a discount there. Well, keep us updated on what you find with all of your stuff. It's nice that you have your background, that you have a lot of knowledge with all of this because I feel like so many people will probably just be really lost in testing all that information and learning from it.

Cynthia Thurlow: I know too much and that's both a blessing and a curse. But I also know my personality and my feeling is I just want to know. I have to go back for more blood work this week. I have my CAC on Thursday. I have the CIMT. Those are both noninvasive for anyone that's listening. They're generally not covered by insurance, but thankfully they're not particularly expensive. But if my CAC score is 0 then that's great. If my carotid intimal, the inside aspect of my carotid arteries is not narrowed by plaque then that's a lot less concerning. But we have to get the information and then review it. And I feel very comfortable and confident with my provider, although he thinks there's probably something that's going on with my gut.

I came back from London and did a bunch of testing, just routine testing, and one of the first calls I got was from the office saying, "Are you having any symptoms? Because your stool study showed salmonella." And I was like, well, I did eat steak tartar when I was in London, but it was a good restaurant, like a very, very high-end restaurant. Here's a fun fact, that's a diagnosis that the lab is required to share with the public health department. So, I had an epidemiologist call me yesterday to ensure that I was not symptomatic. I just said, listen, I'm a clinician, I get it, I know you're doing your due diligence, I have no symptoms, I've discussed with my physician, I don't think you need-- and they're like, "Is anyone else sick in your family?" I was like, "I was in London and I ate rare steak or rare meat." It could very well then where I got it from, but I'm not symptomatic at all. But it became very humorous, my husband was like, "Good Lord, [laughs] you're so high maintenance." I'm like, "No, it's just digging for different things." So never a dull moment. So, for listeners, know that you are not alone in trying to figure out what's going on with your health. I'm a constant work in progress.

Melanie Avalon: I've eaten so much raw meat in my life, [laughs] I actually recently did a round. Have I talked on the show or are you familiar with Mimosa pudica?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think you've talked about it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I did another round of it recently. I kind of want to add it, like, eventually make it one of my AvalonX supplements because it's just so cool. It's basically this gelatinous material supplement. I don't know what it comes from. It just grabs and paralyzes things. Yeah, the pictures people post online of stuff that comes out. But I've done it in the past. Yeah, I definitely have talked about this on the show. They'll say that because if you open one of the capsules and put it in water, you'll see what it becomes, which is like this long stringy thing. So, you can see how if it just went through you and came out, it would look like a parasite anyways. So, you have to keep that in mind. But when it pulls out things that are very evidently not the supplement, it's crazy and people swear by it. But yeah, I feel like I should maybe do like a round of that, like once a year just because of all the rare meat that I eat and have eaten. I'm really bad about that. So, it's interesting to me that you're concern about having it one time and being worried. I'm like, "Oh, I've eaten, like, pounds and pounds of rare meat all the time."

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I was just trying to think of something that might have been a precipitant. The good thing is, my doctor and I were messaging back and forth through the portal, he was talking about standard of care is this, I'm reluctant to put you on antibiotics unless we have to. You could also be a carrier. I'm like that's even more disgusting. There are people out there who just carry some of these microorganisms and they're not symptomatic. It's kind of like having a friend that just kind of hangs out in your colon. It'll be interesting to see what the rest is because I did a three-day stool test, which in and of itself is a disgusting hot mess. But it'll be interesting to get all those results and have a better sense of what's going on throughout my body.

Melanie Avalon: Well, definitely keep us updated.

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Next question is from Lori. "If your current self and knowledge could go back in time to your younger self, what would you do differently knowing what you know now as far as career and life hacks," interesting.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. This is such a hard question and there're so many things, and I think it's mostly just that-- well, life hack-wise this is probably the biggest. I really wish growing up I had eaten healthy. I wish I had eaten whole foods, like natural good foods, not all that processed junk. I'm glad that I haven't been eating that for a while, but yeah, it's just-- I was listening to a podcast interview last night. I don't remember which one it was, but they were talking about how basically if we had no processed foods and everybody just ate real food, like the effect that that would have on chronic disease. Not that it would be nonexistent, but I mean, it would be shocking, the difference. Yeah, life wise, that's probably the main life thing. And then all of the amazing biohacking-type things that I experience now that I love. I of course, I'm like, "Oh, I could have been doing this earlier."

I try not to think that way. I try to just think about everything that I love now and have gratitude for it now and not think in the mindset of, like, would have, should have, could have, not having regrets. But career hacks the thing that comes to mind, actually. And it's something where I'm very happy with the trajectory of my life and my career. I think it's been taking me a while to become really autonomous and actually move forward on a lot of projects that I wanted to do and not being scared, because it's really scary to, like you know especially being like a self-employed entrepreneur, took me a long time to just jump all in with that. Actually, that's what-- I lost my-- I was doing a surveying job for quite a while and I lost it with the pandemic and that's what really made me bite the bullet. So, honestly, if the pandemic hadn't happened, I might still be waiting tables, which is not a bad thing. I don't mean to say that as a bad thing, just that it took that push to actually not be scared, to try to just be self-employed, which is a very scary concept, but you can do it. And actually, interestingly, the woman I interviewed yesterday, she runs a company called Encircled, and she makes sustainable clothing. Friends listen to this interview when I air it was mind blowing. We talk about toxins a lot, like toxins and skincare and makeup and food in our environment, but we don't talk about our clothes. It's crazy. So, there's like, chemicals in clothes, like A lot of clothes when they're shipped internationally, they actually spray them with preservatives. About the majority of what we focused on actually wasn't so much the toxins. She's certified by this. There's this company that certifies clothing manufacturers. It was more, though, about sustainability and greenwashing and the clothing industry. And it was so fascinating. Why am I saying that?

Oh, so she talked about how she had a corporate job 9:00 to 5:00 and had this clothing company on the side, and making that decision to just jump all in with it was, she said, like, terrifying. And I hear that story so often. So, I really encourage people with their careers and whatever passions they have to just jump in. Obviously, you have to be responsible, and you do have to pay the bills. I understand that's very multifaceted and layered, but I do want to encourage people to just follow their dreams, and you can do it. And then just like a very more specific thing is, I do think press and PR as much as I loathe it is really important. And it's something I feel like I wish I focused on it earlier, but also, it's very expensive. So, it's like, I don't know that I could have done it more earlier.

Yes. Oh, and then last thing, sorry for all the things. I feel like this is something that I'm going to wish I had started earlier. Somebody did reach out to me after I talked about this last time on the podcast. So, I am looking to get an intern. So, if the position is still open, I'm going to post it online. I'm waiting, I think, for it to be approved. But I'm going to send out a thing on my email list. So, get on my email list at melanieavalon.com/emaillist. Or if you're interested, just email me at podcast@melanieavalon.com. I think that's something I'm going to wish I had started sooner.

So, also, just in general, I'm sort of a control freak. And so, with my career, I always feel like I have to do all the things and be in control, and learning how to outsource and let go of things I think has been really helpful. And then just life hack in general, I wish I'd focused more on gratitude historically and not been so stressed. So, all the things to help with stress. Okay, that was a lot. Cynthia, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think I ended up exactly where I was supposed to be. I started off as a pre-law major and got into law school and then decided I didn't want to go to law school. And so, I worked for two years and had really a job that reaffirmed for me that I didn't want to be in corporate America, no offense to anyone who loves doing that. Went back to school for premed classes and got two more degrees. I think medicine for me was absolutely the place I needed to be. I was so intellectually stimulated. I loved that I saw different things every day I went to work. I spent all of my 20s really just being surrounded by some of the smartest people I've ever met in my entire life. I wouldn't per se change anything in that regard. But I think that I would have probably pivoted earlier.

I don't believe in the would've, should've, could've, but I think if I had not been so appropriately focused on raising little people and for anyone that's listening that has small children, you know that raising them at that stage is all, like, consuming, because you can't leave them. They can't trust themselves. They can't feed themselves. They can't bathe themselves. I might have actually left medicine earlier to become an entrepreneur, but I think things kind of worked out the way they were supposed to. I don't think per se, I would have changed my career path because I'm exactly where I need to be. But I think that I probably would have thought differently about nutrition. I think back when I was younger, I just assumed things that were in the grocery store were all innocuous and benign and assumed that when you went to restaurants everything was innocuous and benign.

And now of course I know differently. But there's not a lot that I would honestly change because I've been so blessed and so fortunate to have a great life partner, healthy happy kids, a really great career, I've got a great team, there's not a ton I would change. I think the intermittent fasting piece came about at the right time for me. I don't think that I would have really been interested in doing that when I was younger because when you're breastfeeding kids, you're hungry all the time I don't care how much food you eat. That would not have been a good time for me to do that.

Up until I was probably 40, the way I was eating really worked well for me and it wasn't until I hit the wall of perimenopause. Not a lot of things that I would change, but I think I probably would have pivoted a bit earlier in my nurse practitioner career. But I also think on a lot of levels at the time that I left, within a year or two, were able to be fully autonomous in our state without a practice agreement. I think things have just kind of naturally evolved for me and not a whole lot that I would change, to be honest with you. I feel fortunate for being able to say that. But as I've stated in other podcasts, I think I've always been doing the work and working diligently. I think I probably would have been less of a people pleaser if there's one thing I would have probably done differently. I'm a really good nurse practitioner.

But one of the reasons why I got along with my peers so well was I was very accommodating versus now I would not be so accommodating. I would definitely stand up for myself more than I did. And I wasn't doing it in a way that it compromised patient care, but just from a thoughtful perspective. We worked with a lot of very domineering, strong personality male physicians and sometimes I would just go with the flow because I didn't want to argue, whereas now I might not be so willing to be so accommodating. But that's a great question.

Melanie Avalon: We're so similar because I feel the same way as you. I really am grateful for everything and how it's manifested. Like, me saying these things is not like the would've, should've, could've. Like everything I feel like did happen the way it was supposed to happen. I think a lot of it is like evolutions of mindsets that have shifted that I find so helpful. I think especially doing more inner work and becoming aware of-- I'm triggered by something like what does that mean? And being aware of how you're reacting to the world and something I just learned, actually in Gabor Maté's book, which is something I think is really going to stick with me.

He talks about a new definition of forgiveness, which I thought was really beautiful. I just pulled it up. He said it's to grieve for what did happen, what didn't happen, and to give up the need for a different past, to accept life as it was and as it is. So not taking it as acceptable, but just that it happened and that it will not define my life negatively now. And I'm really excited to just learn that because I think that I feel like I've been searching for a definition of forgiveness that really resonates with me, because it's like-- I don't want to say the one thing, but it's like, a thing, which is like a concept I really love and want to have more in my life. But it's something that's like so hard to practically do.

Like, I'll see my therapist and I'm like, "I don't know-- it's like, how do you forgive if you want to and you say you do when you try to, but you don't actually feel it?" And so, I loved reading his definition about it and I feel like that's something I'm going to integrate and something I wish I had thought about earlier. So, awesome, awesome.

Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode312. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I am all good.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been amazing and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Apr 02

Episode 311: Trauma, Cancer Prevention, Obesity, Calorie Restriction, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Digestive Rest, Kid’s Nutrition, Special Teachers, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

AvalonX Magnesium 8: Get Melanie’s Broad Spectrum Complex Featuring 8 Forms Of Magnesium, To Support Stress, Muscle Recovery, Cardiovascular Health, GI Motility, Blood Sugar Control, Mood, Sleep, And More! Tested For Purity & Potency. No Toxic Fillers. Glass Bottle. Avalonx Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers, Common Allergens, Heavy Metals,  Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get 3lb Bone In Chicken Thighs For One Year PLUS $20 Off Your First Box!!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

21:50 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

23:50 - Listener Q&A: Niki - IF and cancer prevention

Intermittent fasting in the prevention and treatment of cancer

Episode 57: Dr. Valter Longo!: The Fasting Mimicking Diet, Eating For Longevity, High Vs. Low Protein Diets, Ancestry Diets, Meat Vs. Plant Diets, Rebuilding The Gut, Food Tolerances, Mindset And The Immune System, The Blue Zones, And More!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Prolonged Nightly Fasting and Breast Cancer Prognosis

46:05 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

48:45 - Listener Q&A: Holli - IF question and comment

56:10 - Listener Q&A: Danielle - Do you have a particular teacher that influenced or inspired you?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 311 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free organic free-range chicken thighs for a year plus $20 off. Yes, that's right. I'm talking free organic, free-range chicken thighs for an entire year and $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value.

Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home.

Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken thighs for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. Yes, that's 3 pounds of bone and chicken thighs free in every box for a year plus $20 off your first order. When you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 311 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: Good, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Good. I have been dealing with a potential dog issue over the last four or five days, which I'm so happy to report with tremendous gratitude that my dog's biopsy came back benign. So, big exhale. Thankfully, the vet did not make me wait all day to get the results. I knew they had them yesterday, but the other vet was not willing to discuss them with me, noting it was a complicated, "Report."

Melanie Avalon: That's scary.

Cynthia Thurlow: Exactly. I was like, there's a lot of ways you could have described the report and saying complicated doesn't make me feel reassured. So, she called me first thing this morning. I started my day, literally was outside walking my dogs and got her phone call. It was reassuring to have that information. It doesn't mean that he's not going to develop a problem later, but at least for right now, it does not appear to be cancerous. So, that's very reassuring, because he's 10 years young, he's still young enough as a dog that it is not enough time to have to contemplate end-of-life decisions and things that anyone that has a relationship with an animal that they love, all the way from people that love reptiles, all the way to furry things. My dog is a big contributor to my happiness level in my life. Knowing that there was a potential for a problem weighed very heavily on me for the last four or five days. So, grateful that today I can look optimistically towards the future.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm so sorry you went through that. Is he feeling, okay? I know he was sick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, he's feeling fine. I think after the 24 hours after he had metabolized all the anesthesia, he was back to his kind of spunky, grumpy self. Like, he's not grumpy with me. He's pretty much grumpy with anyone that bothers him. His little personality idiosyncrasies we've all acclimated to. But he has a lot of anxiety, which is normal when older dogs go to the vet. Even with trazodone, before going to the vet for what we thought initially was an ultrasound that turned into a biopsy, the trazodone didn't take the edge off much and they gave him a pretty good dose of trazodone.

And so, when the vet and I were speaking this morning, she said, is it any wonder that his adrenal glands appear to be stressed? I think it's evident that he doesn't enjoy coming to the vet even though the vet is wonderful and this is common with older dogs. I think some of it is-- they get a decline in cognitive functioning, so they may not be able to kind of buffer the stress of being in a place where they think-- much like little kids, they think they're going to get hurt or they're going to be separated from their owner.

So, yeah, there was a lot of praying and a lot of crying, a lot of just being hopeful, as my husband, who's the most optimistic human being in the world, kept saying, was, we don't have anything that we need to be stressed about yet. I was like, "Speak for yourself." [laughs] So, yeah, he had part of his belly shaved and trying to keep him away from licking, which I'm sure as the fur grows back, it's probably a little bit itchy, but we've got a solid plan and he's going to-- so what can happen with adult humans as they get older and also happens in animals, is they can get the sundowning.

I noticed that he gets anxious at night, which is new, and the vet and I were talking about it, and so we're going to use a drug called gabapentin as needed. Not something he has to take every day, but to help him because I'm noticing that's a new symptom and something I used to see in a lot of my patients. Certainly not something I'm not familiar with, but yeah, it's hard to watch our pets get older. It really is.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Yeah, no, I'm sorry that-- oh, man. I don't personally have any pets, but my parents do, and I did growing up, of course. So, I almost don't want a pet for the reason of not wanting to lose the pet in the end.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's the hardest thing. I mean that's what I was behooving to the vet about on Thursday, was this is the hardest part of being a pet owner. Unlike humans where euthanasia is pretty much frowned upon, you do have the opportunity to ensure that your pet doesn't suffer. For me, I was like, "I don't want him to have his spleen removed." I mean, come on, he's almost 11 years old and he'd have to be in the doggy ICU for a couple of days. I was like, that's not a direction I want to go in because that wouldn't be fair to him. Ultimately, had it been malignant, his potentiality for living another six months was not particularly high. I'm just grateful that whatever amount of time we still have with him we're going to enjoy and savor and just be grateful that we didn't have to make a tough decision.

Melanie Avalon: And what type of dog?

Cynthia Thurlow: This is my labradoodle, so people on social media know that I refer to him affectionately as my lovey. [laughs] So, he's the smartest, most intuitive pet I've ever owned. And we have another doodle and Baxter's like comedic relief. He's just a much less serious dog. Cooper is a very serious dog. He's kind of like an old soul. Jokingly, we've always said he doesn't think he's a dog, which is part of his problem, which is why he doesn't like to play with other dogs, he tolerates Baxter, but, yeah, he's my lovey, he's my buddy.

Melanie Avalon: Well, sending lots of love and healing and hopefully it gets better.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's the one thing about pets, they really make you value time because time with them is fleeting. You just have to savor the good times and pray you get as much quality of life for them for as long as possible.

Melanie Avalon: The stress piece surrounding it reminds me I just finished-- Thank you so much for this introduction, by the way, Gabor Maté's book. I have that interview now next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: I just remember he did talk about pets in like one small part of the book. How was that interview that you had with him?

Cynthia Thurlow: Incredible. I think that you have to do the work to be able to get and facilitate a great conversation with someone like that because I read the book and normally, I read pretty fast and I retain quite a bit. But I had to read it and kind of put it aside because it made me think a lot about my parents and the things they grew up in that impacted the way they parented me and the way they've interacted in the world. One of the things I said to him was, your book allows me to view them even more compassionately than I already had been. And it also makes me understand that most of us really don't understand what trauma represents.

And so, for me, it was very transformational. For anyone that's listened to that podcast interview, it's the most personal one I've ever done. And he was doing a little bit of therapeutic intervention and interaction with me. I think that the way that we grow as human beings is to challenge ourselves, and that was a challenging interview for me because the only way to do the interview properly was to be transparent about my own experiences, my own journey, my own work that I'm constantly doing.

I jokingly tell my husband I think I'll be doing therapy till the day I die because I think there's always something more we can improve upon or a better way to understand other people or our own behavior. I think his work has really been instrumental and what I appreciate about him, in particular, is he's so gracious. Obviously, he's got this New York Times bestselling book and he's still doing press. He doesn't have to, but he's still doing a lot of press, which tells me that he just wants to help people. I think that's just incredible and it's a sign of the kind of person that he is and the level of impact that his work is making. I'm sure you're really excited to interview him next week.

Melanie Avalon: I'm so excited and I was thinking about this. I think we're both going to benefit from the conversation that you've already had and the conversation I'm going to have so much. It's kind of, I think, opposite sides of the spectrum. Because the thing I really want to ask him about, he has a whole section on people who perceive having really happy memories, like not recalling any childhood trauma, which is me for sure, because he has a whole section on this, like people who have a happy childhood, and he basically says that there was still trauma. So, I'm really excited to talk to him about that, especially because I feel like I passed the question because he said he had a question that he asks everybody who says that and then that kind of weeds through.

But the question is, I don't know if you remember this, when you were young and you felt scared or afraid or angry or whatever emotion, did you have a parent that you could talk to or who did you talk to about it? And he says most people who have things that manifest as trauma today, which is like chronic health issues or mental health issues, don't pass that test. I'm really excited to have that whole conversation because I feel like I did talk to my mom [laughs] about stuff. But he even says that a high achiever mentality is like trauma driven and so literally everything is trauma according to him. So, I'm excited to have this conversation.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting because his concept of trauma is that it's a wound. It offers up this kind of more simplified, simplistic way of looking at trauma. I was actually talking about this with a group that I teach this morning, talking about adverse childhood events and how that leads to autoimmunity and weight loss resistance and all this interesting research that's come out. And I encouraged some of these women, I was like, if you've grown up with abuse, neglect, etc. Do the work in terms of helping yourself heal so that you don't potentiate that. I always say that my children, I didn't get the parents that I needed or I wanted, I should say. I got the parents that I needed to help break multi-generational trauma that had gone on. In many ways, I'm so grateful that I didn't have the types of parents that I wanted because it made me create for my own children a very healthy relationship because I've done so much work and my husband's been so supportive of the whole healing journey.

But I'm sure that people come to him with differing backgrounds and perspectives and I'm sure it will yield a really enlightening and helpful discussion for the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast listeners because there's always something more to learn. It's not like we learn it all and then we don't continue to evolve and shift and change our perspectives as we get older. I think there's always a nugget to learn from. So, I look forward to listening to it.

Melanie Avalon: I am so excited. Just two quick thoughts. One is, I think similar to you, my mom had a lot of trauma and then I know she always tried to make it her goal to not have the things happen that she had growing up with us. That sounds similar to your approach with your kids. There's so much. So, I literally just finished it. Now I have to go through all the notes and clean it up and synthesize my thoughts. But there're so many things I want to ask him. It's a long book.

Cynthia Thurlow: I mean, it's a book that took me a couple of weeks to get through because I could only absorb so much at a time because it challenged me. It challenged me just on a personal and a professional level because I think most of our listeners know I trained in Baltimore and trauma of my patients experienced that we didn't realize how substantial and significant that was on their development and explains a lot of behavior. Like, I have a very bright 15-year-old and he was talking about choices that people make.

I just looked at him and I said, "I hate to say this to you because I don't want to say this to you, but I'm going to. You realize you've grown up incredibly privileged and that you have two parents that are happily married, that have been very focused on making sure that you are nurtured and you have experiences and there's no abuse in this home and there's no drug addiction and just like very simple things." And he had never considered that. I think kids, in many ways, when they grow up in healthy environments, they just take for granted that's everyone's norm.

I just, like, pointing out to them, I was like, "This is not a criticism, but your perspective has been created based on your own experience, which is fine, but with the understanding that kids you go to school with and kids that you'll go to college with and people you'll meet throughout your lifetime have had real struggles to get where they are and just how incredibly fortunate you are. I hope that you understand that and maybe you don't at 15, but I hope you do when you're a young adult because it's very different." He always says, "It's so different than the way you grew up. I know." I said, "I only share that with you so that you understand that your reality is not everyone's reality."

And then he kind of processed that and came back to me later and was like, "I want to learn more about this." I said, "Okay, it's probably time to be doing more volunteer work and more than what we've been doing. I think the pandemic has kind of put a dent in and being able to be as free to volunteer like we had been pre-pandemic." But that's a whole separate tangential conversation.

Melanie Avalon: I like that perspective about other people's traumas. I think for me, what it's really going to help as well is understanding why certain people act the way they act, having a more informed perspective of people's reactionary actions and triggers and things like that being trauma related. I also like, though, to that point, I like that he talks about how people also compare their traumas and how that basically you can still have trauma even if it's not as, "Bad" as other people's trauma. There's just so much I'm very, very excited about it. He just interviewed Prince Harry.

Cynthia Thurlow: I saw that. I was very conflicted.

Melanie Avalon: I didn’t watch, I haven't watched it yet.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, there was a side of me that was curious and then, I don't know, I have a lot of objective reasonable friends that have read his book and I was kind of like "Well, I feel conflicted about all of that." As much as I would love to see Gabor interview him, I just opted not to.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get an exclusive discount on one of my favorite health products of all time that I have been using for years. There are so many different health products out there today, it makes it really hard to know which ones actually work. Well, one of my daily health habits for years now has been using my Joovv. You guys have definitely heard me talk about Joovv before. Yes, that is J-O-O-V-V. I use my device daily to support healthy cellular function, which is the foundation of our health. Honestly, having healthy cellular function gives me peace of mind that my body is working efficiently and has the energy it needs to get through the day. There are so many clinically proven benefits from red light therapy. I have personally experienced the incredible effect on my circadian rhythm, enhanced skin health, and reducing muscle pain.

I did something to my knee, I'm not sure exactly what and my Joovv red light therapy device has been a game changer in alleviating inflammation there and making it feel better. Aside from the benefits, I really love Joovv because the quality of their devices is simply the best. Their modular design allows for a variety of setup options that gives you flexibility plus the treatments are so easy, they can be done in as little as 10 minutes, although I tend to use my Joovv a lot more than that. All I have to do is relax and shine the light on my body. Joovv offers several different size options including a wireless handheld device called the Joovv Go, that's great for targeting specific areas around your body like hurting joints or sore muscles. That's what I really love to use on my knee. And yes, I take it when I travel.

Friends, health doesn't have to be complicated and Joovv makes it simple by helping support the foundation of health, our cells. Go check out the Joovv today and while you're there, Joovv is offering all of our listeners an exclusive discount on their first order. Just go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and apply our code IFPODCAST to your qualifying order. Again, that's J-O-O-V-V dotcom forward slash ifpodcast. Pick up a Joovv today, some exclusions apply.

Okay, shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. This is a question from Nikki. Subject is intermittent fasting and cancer prevention. Hi, Melanie and Cynthia, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about recommendations for intermittent fasting with respect to cancer prevention. I have a family history of breast cancer and as I am now in my 40s, I'm more serious about making sure I've done everything I can to lower my risk. Melanie, I did listen to your interview with Dr. Jason Fung on the subject and read his book, but I don't remember him giving any actual time or protocol recommendations.

These days I don't fast as intensely as I used to. It ranges anywhere from 13 to 16 hours as I find it difficult to get all my protein in with a shorter feeding window. I would be interested to know if more fasting would be recommended from this perspective. If, for example, your general risk of cancer could be significantly lowered if you fasted 24 hours at least once a week or even once a month, I'd be motivated to add that in.

I do know that Dr. Satchin Panda recommended fasting for at least 13 hours to lower your risk of breast cancer. That's why this is currently my minimum number. But I'd love to know your thoughts as to whether more is better and to what extent. Thanks so much for all you do. Best, Nikki.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Nikki. So, thank you so much for your question. I know Cynthia and I both have a lot of information on this. I did a deep, deep dive into fasting and cancer and I'll just spiel out what I found. I do remember reading, obviously, I remember, but I read Dr. Jason Fung's The Cancer Code and did have him on the show and I was surprised reading his book. He did not talk about fasting very much in that book at all. Did you read that book?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I remember thinking that was interesting. But In any case, so I found a really nice review from 2021. It's published in the Journal CA, which is A Cancer Journal for Clinicians, and the title is Intermittent Fasting in the Prevention and Treatment of Cancer. And so, I'm just going to go through some of the findings. I know Nikki's question is specifically about cancer prevention, but I just wanted to provide sort of an overview of what the literature does show about fasting and cancer to date or at least until that review. So, basically, well, just cancer stats.

Cancer is the second leading cause of mortality and morbidity in the US. So, it accounted for an estimated 608,570 deaths in 2021 alone. It's estimated at least at that time that 42% of cancers are largely informed by modifiable lifestyle risk factors. Basically, your lifestyle is perpetuating, encouraging, and potentially could be a treatment for cancer. And so, overweight and obesity specifically relate to at least 13 different types of cancers, and the reason that's important, obviously, is that fasting often results in treatment for obesity and being overweight. So, there could be something going on there.

Interestingly, there's something called the obesity paradox in cancer research, which is that in some forms of cancer, it seems like obesity is protective against cancer. But the study authors were hypothesizing that a lot of that might be due to methodology issues or just looking at the data sort of incorrectly. There are a few cases where there're specific reasons that obesity might be protective in one type of cancer. It specifically creates a type of protective immune cell in the fat, but that seemed to be far and few between and it's more likely methodology stuff.

On the flipside, a lot of factors of being overweight and obese are related to cancer pathways. That's things like inflammation, high insulin, which when you have high insulin that can protect cancer, like a dampening of things that you would find in calorie restriction, which calorie restriction is actually-- and I think it's pretty interesting, it is found to be the most robust intervention to date for cancer prevention in rats, monkeys, and humans.

And so that's for a lot of reasons and a lot of these overlap with fasting. That is things like decreased production of growth factors, inflammatory cytokines, anabolic hormones, as well as reduced oxidative stress and DNA damage. There are a lot of studies on calorie restriction as well as fasting in rodents for cancer prevention, not as many in adults, but I think we can learn a lot about the mechanisms at play with calorie restriction and fasting in rodents and what might be going on there. So, some of those things are autophagy, which is something that we talk a lot about on the show, interestingly. There are some studies where these are rodent trials, but they're fasting trials and the rodents don't lose weight, but it seems to be protective against cancer and it might be due to autophagy, which is kind of cool.

There's also something called the differential stress response which is basically that in a stress state normal healthy cells grow stronger typically, it activates protective mechanisms compared to cancerous cells which typically do not do well in a stress state. So, something like fasting or calorie restriction might protect healthy cells while discouraging cancer cells or even causing apoptosis or the killing of cancer cells. There's also the role of glycolysis. Cancer cells often run on sugar and cannot run on fat or ketones, so fasting can have an effect there possibly.

When it comes to actual human studies. There aren't a lot of studies on fasting for treating cancer or long-term studies on fasting and cancer, but there are a myriad of smaller studies finding mechanisms that might be protective against cancer. On top of that, there are quite a few studies actually looking at the effects of fasting paired with chemotherapy and finding that it might make chemotherapy more effective, specifically by reducing DNA damage. And also a lot of studies have found that can make the negative side effects of chemotherapy not as bad, less toxic, more tolerable. At the end of the study, they did make recommendations, which is kind of directly answering Nikki's question. This was something I thought was interesting. They actually put the recommendations after the conclusion. It's literally like the very last thing in the study.

But basically, they were saying that when it comes to being overweight and obese-- so if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss as a means of primary cancer prevention, that IF is maybe an option for that. Oh, because they do talk all throughout the paper about safety or not. And before that, sorry, I'm kind of jumping around, there are some conflicting studies, especially in rodents with cancer prevention. Like some finding it therapeutic or helpful and then others finding that not to be the case, and then interesting studies with rodents as well and refeeding in that some find benefits with cancer prevention and treatment and some actually find that it might make cancer worse.

A huge major caveat and I'm really glad that this article talked about it and it's something that I think is not talked about enough, which is the massive difference between rodents and humans in fasting specifically in that they just are not the same thing, like 24-hour fast in a rodent-- So, a 24-hour fast in a rodent, which is often what is studied and is proposed as, "Intermittent fasting," that's really not intermittent fasting for a rodent.

So, 24-hour fast in a rodent is likely equal to a five-day fast feed cycle in humans that's because a rat will actually die of starvation after 48 to 60 hours, like, it will die, compared to a human that can go 57 to 73 days of fasting before dying. So, there is a major difference there. The majority, if not maybe all of the studies on rodents and fasting are the equivalent of basically long-extended fasting in humans. That's something to really keep in mind.

And then also something else to keep in mind is that, this is interesting. They talk about how, like in rodent studies, the feeding and the food is often much more controlled than it is in human studies. And that oftentimes with fasting in human studies, humans will just eat their normal meals or there're just more factors involved. It's not usually like lab chow where it's specifically controlled. That's something also to keep in mind. I know I'm skipping all around, but I'm remembering things that I left out. They also talked throughout the article about the fasting-mimicking diet, which is the work of Valter Longo. Kind of going back to what I was just saying about the longer fast research in rodents.

A potential benefit of the fasting-mimicking diet, which is basically where you have this super low calorie, plant-based, low protein, low carb approach for usually, I think, five days in humans, is that it kind of can potentially activate these mechanisms of fasting, but for longer. So, for five days. It might be more similar to what you're getting mechanism-wise with the rodent studies. And a nice thing about the fasting-mimicking diet is it's more controlled and there is quite a bit of research on it with the work of Valter Longo. Going back to-- Oh, which, by the way, we've had Valter Longo on this show. I think we've had him on twice. We've had him on I think once and then I've had him on my show. Have you had him on your show, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, would you like to interview him? I'm just curious.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm curious. But I think I'm not a huge proponent of really long fasting for a variety of reasons, taking my own personal feelings about it out. Obviously, he is one of the big longevity researchers and someone that talks quite a bit about fasting. So, yeah, I think he would definitely be on my wish list for the future for sure.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I wonder if he has any new books or anything coming out. I'm just thinking how I might reach out to him and just have him on randomly. But I'm happy to connect you to him if you like. He was really hard to, like, lockdown. I thought he would be-- I know he's been around for a while, but I tried before he had his book a while ago when he wasn't quite as popular, and even then, I couldn't, it was hard. I don't even know how I ended up getting him. I think his book was coming out and his publicist reached out.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's usually when you can get him. It's funny, I just booked Glucose Goddess, who I've been persistently after for six months. She has a new book coming out, which is why she probably has been putting me off and then Dr. Amen. I've been wanting to have both of them on for a while, so I'm excited about the opportunity to connect with them. And you've had Dr. Amen on.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I actually went to his Amen Clinics here in Atlanta.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, cool. One of my girlfriends works at his DC clinic.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, nice. Yeah, they were super nice to let me do a-- I think it was like half of a scan though, [laughs] because you're supposed to go in twice and I went in once and I think they test one thing one time and one thing the other. Yeah, that was a nice experience. It was really cool because he actually looked at my scan in real time during the interview. So, I was like, "I'm getting my scan reviewed by Dr. Amen himself," which was very cool. That'll be awesome. I love him.

So, okay. Coming to Valter Longo, what are we talking about? Yeah, so Valter Longo obviously has the fasting-mimicking diet to go back to the conclusion of the study and Nikki's question. I felt like it was a very cautious interpretation of the literature, which I understand. Basically, they say that if you're overweight or obese and you're seeking weight loss and you're looking for cancer prevention, then IF may be an option. Interestingly, they don't talk about weight loss if you're normal weight, losing weight and if you should use fasting for cancer prevention. I think that's mostly just coming from, like I said a sense of caution, like not wanting to make medical prescriptions.

They do say, though, that if you are doing IF and not losing weight and/or changing your diet and physical activity that there's not really data indicating that fasting would be protective. But stepping back from that, it's just interesting because they talk all throughout it about all of these mechanisms that are likely activated by fasting that might be protective. I would make the conclusion that if you're doing fasting even if you're not losing weight, that this is just my interpretation, I would see how it could be protective.

And then they do talk about people who actually have cancer and if they should use fasting in that and they basically say that, yes, there are a few trials with people who are getting chemotherapy and those find typically that's safe, feasible and can potentially decrease the toxic effects and tumor growth, but that the data is minimal. And if you are doing fasting while having cancer, they basically just say they would only do it if you're in a clinical trial and that a lot more research is needed.

Stepping back from all of that after reading it, I just walked away thinking that there are clearly a lot of mechanisms that fasting activates that are seemingly protective against cancer. I would feel comfortable saying that just living an intermittent fasting lifestyle is likely protective against cancer as far as how much, I'm trying to remember-- I know Nikki was saying like a 24-hour fast. She was wondering about a 24-hour fast once a week or once a month, and she does at least 13 hours. So, again, it's really hard to know at what point and I feel this also will probably be individual for different people, but at what point in the fast are you activating these different mechanisms? So, more autophagy, insulin going down, IGF-1 going down, metabolic hormones like estrogen and testosterone effects on those. It's hard to know when those are happening at the fast at what time. But I do think implementing intermittent fasting into your lifestyle is likely protective against cancer.

I am intrigued by the fasting-mimicking diet. I personally can't, I've tried it and it made me starving. But I can see how doing that for five days could potentially be pretty therapeutic or like a longer fast, which is also something I haven't done. I think the longest fast I've done has been like 50 hours and I did not enjoy it at all. Yeah, I'm trying to remember, just a last note, there was a book I was reading recently and I might have already said it on this podcast, but they were quoting somebody. I don't want to say the name because I don't want to say who it was, but it was somebody very respected and that person was saying they thought you could reduce your risk of all cancers significantly if you did, I think he said like a four to five-day fast once a year or something. Yeah, so that was a lot. Cynthia, I know you have thoughts as well. What are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do and that was a very extensive response. I have a team member who's a breast cancer thriver and is very open about this. So, I'm not disclosing anything that she hasn't shared publicly. I stumbled upon some research probably a few years ago there's a JAMA oncology article from 2016 talking about objectively looking at women with early stage breast cancer. There were over 2400 women with breast cancer but without diabetes, ages 27 to 70 they were put into a prospective women's healthy eating and living study that ran from 1995 to 2007. It was really just focused on nightly fasting duration. What really came out of this is that prolonging the length of the nightly fasting interval, maybe a simple nonpharmacologic strategy for reducing the risk of breast cancer reoccurrence, as well as improvements in glucoregulation specific to A1c is what they were looking at here and CRP, so C-reactive protein.

It's interesting they speak in here extensively about this model and what it came down to in terms of hours of sleep and ended up being kind of aligned with what Satchin Panda had talked about. Less than 13 hours a night of sleep, which is not a lot, was associated with a 36% higher hazard for breast cancer reoccurrence. From my perspective and I talk very openly about this now, the minimum standard for every single listening grown adult should be 12 to 13 hours of fasting. And that's not even fasting. It's like digestive rest, it's pretty benign.

But understanding that this was a large study that was looking at all-cause mortality and it's interesting that they're not talking about these prolonged periods of fasting and I do see the utility in doing that. I think my concern always falls into the bucket of, if you're lean already, are you losing muscle? And then you really have to think about the net impact on loss of muscle and whether or not that's the upregulation of autophagy is really of benefit.

But we'll link this study up and this is again, less than 13 hours is associated with a statistically significant 36% increased risk of-- It's interesting that it was just 13 hours of fasting. It wasn't this prolonged fast. I think this is highly bio-individual. I think there's ongoing research, but this was just one of many, many resources that I kind of stumbled upon. The individuals on my team, as an example, who are either perimenopausal or menopausal females that are cancer survivors. Just helping them understand that interrelationship of not only insulin sensitivity but also the role of therapeutic fasting or even periods of digestive rest have a lot of net benefits.

Melanie Avalon: Just to comment quickly on that women's study, the review talked about that study as well and what was interesting-- what it said about it talked about that study and then it compared it to another study that also looked at a large cohort of women. I'd have to read the section again, but basically, they said by comparing the results of the two studies and weight loss or not and the effects, the two studies so the one that Cynthia spoke about and then another one because of the weight loss and the adjustments for that and what happened and what didn't happen. It led to the hypothesis that a negative energy balance is a necessary factor for improving breast cancer outcomes. Because I know one of the studies that they looked at, they weren't necessarily making it calorie restricted, but I think it ended up being that.

Yeah, by comparing the two, but basically that the negative energy balance might be an important key there. And one of the things about fasting nicely is that it can often create unintentional calorie restriction without people even meaning to. So, that was something to point out. I'm also glad that you pointed out. I do find that really interesting about the 13 hours, especially because Nikki mentioned Dr. Panda talking about 13 hours and then that is often what is prescribed and you said this basically, but I do wonder how many of the benefits do actually-- it surprises me basically that we are seeing the effects with that short of a fast.

Cynthia Thurlow: I guess what I find encouraging is for the people who are out there who are not fasting on a regular basis, it's almost like a gateway, meaning it's low enough in terms of hours spent not eating that I think most people could do that and do it fairly easily. I presented at Low Carb Denver now almost a week and a half ago and one of the things-- usually I'm talking about fasting, but in the case of this event, I was talking about insulin-sensitive obesity and I was saying like, in terms of interventions that you can do with patients, 12 hours of digestive rest can still confer benefits.

Unfortunately, I think it's probably our competitive nature here in the United States, but people kind of think more is better, more always has to be better. I just remind people, let's just keep it simple, we want things to be sustainable. I think for a lot of people, it's just in their nature, they want to go to extremes like, "Oh, I have to do 24 hours fast to get benefits." Well, there're different types of fasting, but I think for the general population if you just do 12 or 13 hours fasting, we know that there are a lot of health benefits conferred with that. I think just meeting people where they are, like if you're going from a standard American diet and being a couch potato to fasting that's going to be scary, like really scary to change from eating every hour or two to going and eating twice a day, that's a big adjustment.

Melanie Avalon: It surprises me, but it's super amazing that it makes it more approachable for people. Yeah, I'm just thinking about how, like, growing up I used to do intermittent fasting. I've talked about this on the show before, but one day a week on Wednesdays because we would go to the buffet at the country club and so I would not eat all day, so that I could just pig out and two things and one, I thought I was doing something really terrible by not eating, even though natural-- Granted I was in high school, it was still so hard. [laughs] And now to think that I do one meal a day-type approach every single day is just kind of funny to think about. There is something about having that approachable, like something that people feel like they can actually do and getting used to it. It's great to know that there are the benefits there potentially.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

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Now we have a question from Holly. The subject is IF question and comment and Holly says, Hello there. "I saw this book as a recommendation in my fasting group and I've been listening to it at work, and I realize--" I don't know which book she's talking about, but I don't know if it's yours or Gin's, probably not mine. She says, "I learned a lot for someone who has studied food, but in different ways I suppose. I had a couple of questions and comments about a couple of things that stuck out to me. Have you ever read the book? French Kids Eat Everything. I learned some interesting information about different cultural approaches to eating and it was fascinating to me because I'm a cultural geographer and an artisan cheesemaker." That's cool. She says, "Anyways, my question is pertaining to children and being ingrained to eating breakfast. At what age do we let them casually feel ready to eat for the day? or as teenagers, the kids are little, we eat pretty clean as everything is made at home. But what happens when they have to start school and we want to make sure they are nourished until their untimely short lunch period? On another note, I wanted to comment about working out and fasting. I began practicing yoga with my mom when I was about 15 years old. We were watching VHS tapes and before every practice began, there was a warning that you should be in a minimum of a four-hour fasted state before practicing. So, I guess what I'm saying is, yoga taught me to always work out in a fasted state. That's all. I just wanted to share that with you." Best, Holly. I like hearing that about yoga.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Holly, I have actually not read that book French Kids Eat Everything, but I am familiar with the premise. I have teenagers and what we have to do is instill good habits in our children. By the time, they were late elementary school age, middle school age, they were making their own lunches, they could make their own breakfast, they could put together an impromptu meal during the day if they were home on a weekend. I think that you have to instill good habits. I certainly didn't find that my kids were tempted by the junk that was served in the school cafeteria. Although once a week we would let them get ice cream because everyone got ice cream on a specific day of the week and I just kind of let that go.

But I think by the time they're teenagers, they kind of autoregulate and especially with the pandemic, my teenagers they had to, they had to be able to make their own lunch because with four of us being home, we're all breaking at different times, and being online for an entire year of school was a gigantic joke. And so, my kids would sometimes check out when they were in the middle of class. They would come downstairs and make food. So, my kids know how to make healthy meals, and you have to pick your battles. I pretty much determine what are my non-negotiables and then we work around that.

I'm adamant about no high fructose corn syrup and no seed oils. Both my kids actually eat really healthy. They eat a lot of protein. They're both student athletes. They eat a lot of healthy carbohydrates. I have one kid who's been tracking his macros because he's trying to build muscle and it's actually been impressive to kind of watch him be very diligent about meal timing and how much carbohydrate he's eating, and how much protein he's eating. From that perspective, I wouldn't worry too much. All those good habits that you're instilling in your children now. I found that it was less about school being a minefield and more about birthday parties and things like that, where my kids would come home and just they'd be sick from eating conventional pizza and whatever the other fun foods they were eating at these parties.

Now, in terms of yoga and what I know about yoga as a practice, it is not at all surprising that you're going to do best, especially if you're doing inversions, depending on what type of yoga you're doing. Not at all surprised that they would encourage you to be in a fasted state or at least several hours in between meals so that your body's not focused on digestion and you can actually move with some ease. So, definitely not surprised that yoga has reinforced that behavior. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I knew you would have a great answer for that, having kids. No, I agree with everything you said. I was thinking back to-- I think I told you I interviewed Marion Nestle. Did I tell you that?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it was talk about an inspiring interview. So excited about it. Jon Levy connected us and she does a lot with food policy or-- She does a lot writing about food policy and the role of government and in our processed food industry and the dietetics associations and the food pyramids and all the things. She's like, a legend. Time magazine had her on the list of something about people involved-- making the biggest advances in health and medicine, which is crazy. I think she's the oldest guest I've interviewed. How old is Gabor Maté? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think he's in his 70s. But like his voice, he sounds much younger.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he does sound younger. And she sounded younger. She's 86.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, he's definitely younger than that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. She was born in 1936. Yeah. It was so cool hearing about her growing up in college and being a mom and a working woman and trying to navigate the system and everything she dealt with as a woman back then. It's crazy. But in any case, so she has a whole section in her book and she has 15 books, so she has a lot of information, but a lot about the role of cafeteria food and the role of industry and marketing to kids. I don't want to say coercing schools. I think it's quite an issue today.

Just stepping back, I know this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's so interesting because it's so blatantly obvious. And Gabor Maté talks about this. Like, when things are just normalized as normal, we don't notice how off they are or how wrong they are. Something like these big mega companies that put so much money into health research, and it's not because they care about your health, it's because they want to divert attention away from the problem.

So, like, Coca-Cola or Nestle have these huge focuses on supporting health, but it's usually like focusing on the benefits of exercise. It's all to not make you think about the problems of eating the chocolate and drinking the Coca-Cola. I could go on a tangent about this. To me, that just seems so blatantly obvious, but nobody's really thinking about it. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. And when my kids were younger, I was one of the co-directors for Real Food for Kids. 

Melanie Avalon: Wait, what is that?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's an organization that is trying to improve the quality of food, nutrition that's offered to kids in schools. We, at that time, lived in Northern Virginia and had a lot of access to local farms. We had locally sourced grass-fed meat and organic vegetables that the kids were able to incorporate into their lunches. So, yeah, there's a lot that's wrong about the school food that is served to our children definitely.

Melanie Avalon: That's super cool. I feel like that was all over the place, but feel like we answered her question pretty well.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Do you want to do one last quick fun question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure.

Melanie Avalon: Here's just a fun non-fasting-related question to end on from Danielle. This is from our AMAs back in the day. She wants to know, do you have a particular teacher, speaking of schools, that influenced or inspired you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm. Well, I had a high school AP English teacher who I have jokingly/not jokingly admitted to, was the only teacher that really prepared me for college, the rigor, Dr. Barbara Godbold. She was very serious. She was probably 6.2". She was very imposing and she made us work our butts off for her class. Just the pace of the class is really what I believe set me up for what college pace was going to be like. She was super strict. Like, this is back when she wouldn't allow us to wear shorts in our class unless they came to our knees and back in the 80s no one was wearing shorts that long.

So, we would pull our shorts down past our butt and wear these oversized T-shirts so that we could stay in class and not get kicked out. She was intense, but I think many years later, I actually wrote her a letter and thanked her. But at the time, she was formidable, like, 6'2" tall, imposing. She was really, really smart and really taught me a lot. But at the time, I remember thinking she was an impediment to my social life. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: So, two immediately come to mind. One was also, I skipped my last year of high school, but if I had stayed he was the AP English teacher, but before that, he was-- so when I was, like, a sophomore. Actually, wait, you know what? That's not true. I think he was the sophomore and Junior Honors English teacher and then there was a different AP English teacher, coach Carruth, Patrick Carruth. He changed my life. He was so amazing, and he was one of the ones where like we were terrified, like, the first few weeks of him, like, terrified because he was so intimidating and so intelligent, and he would just ask us these questions. It was very Greek, like Socrates and Plato sitting around asking questions. He would ask us these metaphysical questions and we would just stare at him and be scared.

But by the end, halfway through the year and then throughout the next year, he became the most amazing thing. He actually left and went to become headmaster of another school, moved states. We had a going away party for him that we did Great Gatsby themed at my house. So, yeah, he had a huge impact on my life. In college at USC, actually, the top pay professor at USC is Drew Casper. He's in film school, and he is a legend, and he also is terrifying. Like, he's terrifying and he's crazy. He screams and yells and is very passionate and energetic, and he teaches a lot of film courses at the film school. You can invite him to lunch if you want and have lunch with him and do kind of, like, office hours, but at lunch. I did that as a freshman because I was like, I'm going to do this. He was just so funny and so wonderful and I need to reach out to him now.

I would always bring like-- in college, I was kind of crazy. I was very girly and I would wear all pink and I would bring my stuffed animal of Thumper to class, and he would always get Thumper from me and teach with Thumper on his podium. He would have Christmas parties at his house every year and he would invite me to his Christmas parties, [laughs] the most amazing thing. I'm going to reach out to him. I should see if he would want to do an interview on my show, which would not be biohacking related at all, but I'm going to do that right after this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: It's really nice how people can change your lives. That's actually because we had an AMA question also about something that you wish you had done or done differently or learned in life. One of the things I do wish I had done more was in college, I wish I had gone to more office hours, like with the different professors just in general or taken other classes, but I guess there wasn't really time. But I feel like in college there's just so much opportunity for so much free stuff if you take advantage of it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting. I was part of a very small school within a university and so the dean knew us all by name, so you couldn't hide. There was no hiding. And the professors were pretty intense. And more often than not, the School of Nursing had the same professors as the School of Medicine, so it's just intense. I remember thinking-- I would just go home and want to just unplug my brain [laughs] just between clinicals and everything else. But I agree with you, I think most of us probably lack the maturity in our late teens early 20s to take full advantage of all the opportunities to learn. Yeah. So, like I said, if I could go back, I would do more, but it's like, I don't know that I really could have.

Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode311. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. So, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No, just keep the great questions coming.

Melanie Avalon: Indeed. I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Mar 26

Episode 310: Inositol, Improved Sleep, Cell Metabolism, DNA Repair, Brain Health, Electrolyte Balance, Glucose Control, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

3:45 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

8:10 - what is inositol?

11:25 - sugar alcohol

13:05 - does it break a fast?

18:05 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At 
Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

20:50 - the importance of sleep

23:00 - DNA repair and cell metabolism; Nerve Health

29:20 - choline

31:45 - Brain health, Dopamine, Serotonin

35:00 - insulin resistance in the brain

38:30 - exogenous sources of inositol

40:45 - magnesium and electrolyte balance

44:35 - AVALONX MAGNESIUM 8: Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist, And Use The Code Melanieavalon For 10% On Any Order At Avalonx.Us And MDlogichealth.Com!

47:15 - why this supplement? why now?

52:40 - L-Theonine and anxiety

53:20 - Metabolic Health

55:00 - MD Logic

Get 25% off during the Presale 03/11-03-19 or 15% off between 03/20-03/31 at cynthiathurlow.com/insolitol!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 310 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes for free. Yes, completely free. The more I do research, the more health books I read, the more people I interview something keeps coming up again and again and that is the importance of electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body. This includes the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you don't have your electrolytes in line, best case scenario, you're not going to perform at your best. Worst case scenario, you're going to feel pretty awful. When your electrolytes are out of balance, you can experience things like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and many other unpleasant symptoms. How do we lose electrolytes? Well, when you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. Athletes can lose up to 7 grams per day. Also, when people go on keto diets, that also often results in depleted electrolytes, and may be responsible for something called the, "keto flu."

Also, if you're not feeling well while fasting, that could be a problem with electrolytes. But here's the other problem on top of the electrolyte problem. Most of the electrolyte mixes on the market are nothing I would personally want to put in my body. Thankfully, I found LMNT. LMNT has none of the junk, no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS. It contains a science-packed electrolyte ratio of 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, 60 mg of magnesium. LMNT is used by everyone from NBA, NFL, and NHL players to Olympic athletes to Navy SEALS to exercise enthusiasts to everyday moms and dads to people like me, and potentially you. The experience I've had of being electrolyte depleted and then having an LMNT packet was like the feeling of coming alive. Like, "Oh, the lights just turned on." It truly is incredible.

Friends, I work with a lot of brands. LMNT is one of the brands where people randomly just tell me all the time how obsessed they are. LMNT offers no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single-serving packets free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom slash ifpodcast. Stay salty.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Welcome back to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Today I am joined by my dear friend Scott Emmens. Scott is the CEO and founder of MD Logic Health and today we are going to discuss my latest supplement Myo-inositol. Scott, I'm really excited to have this conversation today about Inositol.

Scott Emmens: I am too, Cynthia. I have to say, this molecule, although I've known about it for quite some time. As I did the research for this, really opened my eyes up to it. So, I'm thrilled to have it. My first question for you is when you decided to make your next supplement, Inositol, what was it that made you choose Inositol? For the audience, what is Inositol?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's important to be fully transparent and share with everyone that sleep over the last eight to ten years has been elusive in many instances. And so, I'm always looking for ways to improve my quality of sleep to ensure that I am getting restful sleep. I mean, now I track my metrics on my Oura Ring. But about a year and a half ago, I was already aware of Myo-inositol, which is a specific type of Inositol, which we'll talk about in a second, and I decided to just guinea pig. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take this before bed. I'm going to see what net impact it has on my sleep." This is the experimentation of the N of 1, the power of how important that is, and what I found is when I woke up in the morning, I didn't just feel more rested. My sleep metrics absolutely recorded deeper and longer deep sleep. For anyone that is familiarized with deep and REM sleep, they both have different purposes. One is really focused on brain health, the other one is really focused on bodily health. But as we are getting older, it sometimes can be more challenging to get high-quality deep and REM sleep. Over the course of about six months, I was able to adjust dosages, timing. I started including it in a lot of my treatment protocols, with my own patients and clients. Happily, the N of 1 became N of 20 or 30. From there I started talking more about it.

If we're talking specifically about this particular form of Inositol, Myo-inositol is a type of sugar alcohol. It's actually the most abundant Inositol in the body making up 95% of free Inositol. It's found within cell membranes. It's sometimes referred to as a vitamin although that's really a misnomer, vitamin B8. It's not a true vitamin because our bodies can actually make Myo-inositol and we can sometimes get it from foods in our diets, whether it's fruits and nuts and grains and beans. But we'll discuss later why some people may not be able to extract a lot of inositol from their foods.

We know that it acts as a signaling agent. It's not just about brain health. We know it can actually help with blood sugar, which for most of our listeners, talking about metabolic health is obviously a huge focus of my work. And then, interestingly enough, it's also a nootropic agent. It helps the brain with cell signaling. To me, the more I learned about it was not just a supplement for women with PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, although the research is really solid in that area. But it's a supplement that I've seen really compelling clinical results from patients not just with improvement in blood sugar, but also improvement in cognition and sleep quality. That's really the basis of the supplements that we're working on together, is to make sure that they are focused in these areas, which are the areas I think most of our listeners are concerned about as well.

Scott Emmens: That alone is quite a list of things that [Cynthia laughs] this particular supplement can address. But there are more, which is interesting. To take a step back, you mentioned that it's a sugar alcohol. For our keto friends and people that are wondering, well, how does something that has sugar alcohol in it, how does that support metabolic health? Articulate or walk the audience through how that works.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so it's not the sugar alcohol that we're thinking of that's contrived in a lab per se, that we're trying to increase the sweetness of a product and make it keto friendly. This is really speaking to the ability to move glucose into the cell so intracellularly and the stimulation of specific mechanisms in the cell, there's this GLUT4 translocation, which is a fancy way of saying "It's going to make it much more readily accepted into the cell." We know if only 7% of the population right now is metabolically flexible, this is something that most if not all of us want to be concerned about.

The other thing that's interesting is it can actually play a role in regulating the release of free fatty acids from adipose tissue. This can be impactful if we are fasting and in a fasted state, we are trying to utilize either stored sugar or stored free fatty acids as a fuel source, it's going to help facilitate that by keeping our insulin levels a bit lower. Then, interestingly enough, it can actually promote the conversion from glucose to glycogen. Glycogen is stored sugar and so we store glycogen in our skeletal muscle and our livers, hopefully not too much of it, so that we end up developing something called NAFLD or nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. But there're several different mechanisms that can help with insulin sensitivity that are of particular interest to me. For those of us that are out there that are metabolically flexible, it can be very effective to help with maintaining insulin sensitivity. For those that are actively working on improving their metabolic health can be useful as well.

Scott Emmens: A couple of things there that I just wanted to circle back on. First is when we talk about sugar and the fasting, we're going to get questions on, does this break my fast? So, I guess that's question one. Would Inositol technically break your fast given that it is actually working to pull in the sugar? What are your thoughts there? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting. I think it's always in the context of what is the greatest value. From my perspective, if we are going from maybe let's say our blood sugar is within a healthy range and we take Inositol in a fasted state, I'm more concerned about making sure that you are maintaining this insulin sensitivity than I am about-- the concerns and I know it gets very granular, very nuanced. I know that I would say 50% of the questions that my team and I field on social media on a given day is related to does X break my fast? Typically, I take Inositol in the evening, usually at the tail end of my feeding window. That's when I will take it. But I have plenty of patients as an example that have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome and if you look at the clinical research the recommendation is usually 2 grams twice a day. So, very likely they are taking their Inositol in a fasted state and in a fed state. I think it really comes down to what are your goals.

From my perspective, this is one of those gray areas. I'm completely comfortable with my patients taking this in a fasted state and not worrying about whether or not this is breaking a clean fast. This is very different than someone taking, let's just say, one of the keto sweeteners in something in a fasted state and wondering what's going on. This is actually helping to improve that insulin sensitivity. So, for me, I'm less concerned about it.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, I completely agree. I think that's the perfect response for folks to make it clear that this is an individual need. What are you taking it for specifically? What's the core reason you're taking it? And then you can determine when you're taking it. But I think the benefit of when you take it in a fasted state, given, let's use the PCOS example, might be a fasted state is a perfectly valid and more important reason to take it than worry about whether it's going to have a minor impact on your fast or not. I think it really does come down to individual choices, individual specific goals.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think for a lot of people when they're getting nuanced about does X item beverage supplement break my fast? The bigger question is, are you insulin sensitive? Are you metabolically healthy? If you are, I'm less concerned about what you are. These little tiny little choices that you're making as opposed to someone who may be new to intermittent fasting, maybe new to these kinds of products, maybe has been quite sedentary, has 25, 50 pounds to lose? Then we have to get much more deliberate. These are individuals that likely would benefit from a bit more than opposed to a little bit less. But with that being said, it's always in the context of what are your goals, what are your metabolic health threshold at this point in time and you can make adjustments.

Scott Emmens: I think the key there is if metabolic health is what you're seeking, then that is the key. If you are metabolically flexible and healthy, breaking the fast with minor things here and there are not going to make much of a difference. But what will make it much more, in my opinion you could disagree, is that your metabolic health and overall flexibility is going to be a much more important factor long term than whether you're stuck to your fast precisely or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think this is a good time to just interject that sometimes we get caught up in the little details when in essence we should be flying at 30,000 feet or we're kind of looking down on collectively, what are all the choices we're making throughout the day, throughout the week and what net impact? How is your sleep? How are you managing your stress? Are you lifting weights? Are you eating a nutrient-dense, whole-food diet, which could look a little different for everyone? Are you eating enough protein? Are you satiated? Those things to me as a rule are, they take precedence over one supplement? It's not to ignore the questions that I know will be forthcoming with regard to this. But just keeping your eye on the big picture as opposed to worrying about little bits of minutiae. Sometimes we'll get questions on social media about a particular type of tea or a particular type of coffee, and we'll say. let's look at the ingredient list, let's educate ourselves, what could be contributing to what your concern is about? but I think sometimes people get fixated on one thing and they're not looking at the big picture.

Scott Emmens: Agreed. And sleep is a great example. If you don't get sufficient sleep, you are going to have metabolic insufficiencies or perhaps your blood sugar will spike. And you'll crave sweet food and that's been proven time and time again. If you're sleep deprived, especially over a long period of time, even one day, frankly, but you go less than 6 hours of sleep, you're going to have impacts on your blood sugar that are not going to be positive. So, everything matters. All of those things combined to your point, I think, is really where the rubber meets the road in terms of your metabolic flexibility and health.

Melanie Avalon: Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get $30 off one of my favorite tools to help people lose weight. So, losing weight involves your body going through changes. If you want to do it the right way, you need to be able to see exactly what is happening inside your body. NutriSense lets you do that. NutriSense provides access to continuous glucose monitors, also known as CGMs. I know you guys have heard us talk about CGMs all the time. They give you 24/7 real-time glucose data aka blood sugar. So, you can see how your body responds to different foods, as well as exercise, stress, and sleep. The NutriSense program can help you lose weight without making you feel like you have to make sacrifices. That's because once you're able to see the real impact that certain foods have on your body, you'll be empowered to make better choices and have more control over what you eat.

With NutriSense, you also get access to a registered dietitian who can help you interpret your data and come up with a personalized plan that's based on your data that will really work for you. The dietitian support and community of members will keep you motivated and accountable in your journey. Over time, you will start to see a noticeable difference in how you look and feel. Your clothes will feel better, you'll feel more active throughout the day, and feel confident when you look in the mirror. People who have spent years feeling frustrated because they weren't able to lose weight are now on their journey towards healthy and sustainable weight loss with NutriSense. If you're trying to lose weight and overcome your plateau in a healthy way, this is the program for you. If you're curious how it works, a continuous glucose monitor is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. Application is easy and painless.

Friends, just look at my Instagram, I have done so many videos showing how to put them on. You really, really don't feel it. Then there's the NutriSense app. You can use the app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log meals, run experiences, and so much more. You get expert dietitian guidance. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and will help you build sustainable healthy habits to achieve your goals. They will guide you in creating a meal plan that suits your unique lifestyle and needs including fasting. Visit nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast with the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Every single person I personally introduced to using a NutriSense CGM has inevitably come back and told me just how cool it is, how incredibly eye opening, and how it is truly changing the way they view food and their health. You guys will love it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it goes without saying that when we're talking about sleep, I always like to mention sleep is foundational to our health. If you're not getting a quality sleep, everything else is secondary to that. Don't overfast or don't fast at all if you can't figure out why you're not sleeping well. There're so many women, in particular, I don't want to pick on women, but I know for myself, the first couple of years I was in perimenopause, my sleep, it was like an art form. I had to figure out the right things I needed to do to get myself to sleep through the night. But to your point, we know even one night of sleep can be detrimental to our metabolic health, can contribute to insulin resistance, will raise cortisol, will cause us to want to eat junk and not broccoli and chicken. Just understanding that if you're not sleeping well, that's the first thing to work on before you even worry about anything else get your sleep dialed in, figure out why you're not sleeping, and then fit all the other pieces into the puzzle.

Scott Emmens: One of the things I like about Inositol is not only that it helps with your deep sleep, but it helps with your entire sleep structure, meaning each phase, you'd mentioned the various phases and it helps with structuring that sleep so that you get a perfect balance. I shouldn't say perfect, but a better balance, an improved balance that was really interesting to me. I guess we could move on into mechanisms of action into the cell.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. When we're talking about how Myo-inositol and I know that's a bit of a mouthful, so maybe for listeners I'm going to just say Inositol. But the product that we are talking about is Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: In the supplement world, if you see Inositol, that is Myo-inositol.

Cynthia Thurlow: Generally, yes.

Scott Emmens: 99% of the time if it says just Inositol, that's going to be Myo-inositol. The other most common is D-chiro-inositol, and there's reasons that you don't necessarily want to use it, and if you do it has to be in a very precise amount and it's probably best off to start with Myo-inositol, just by itself for a lot of clinical reasons, but Inositol pretty much means Myo-inositol unless it says D-chiro and that's a totally different [unintelligible [00:22:53], which you got to be very careful with.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely, so, such a good point. When we're talking about our cells, we know that it plays a role in DNA repair. As we're getting older, we are more likely to be having issues with our mitochondria which are effectively the powerhouses of our cells. DNA repair, it's absolutely essential for that. It helps regulate cell metabolism. Again, these are kind of nerdy little caveats but really important to understand that this supplement in particular is working at the cellular level and not just kind of these extraneous topics. We know it's very important for the component of the cell membrane. Our cell membranes are important for communication between cells and so understanding that as we are getting older, as things are maybe not working as efficiently. This is why I really like the idea of using Inositol in conjunction with fasting whether you're taking this at the tail end of your feeding window or incorporating it throughout your day, understanding that at a very basic level, this can help your cells become more efficient, have more energy, be able to improve communication between cells, which, the older I get, the more I think about things on a bit more detailed level because I realize how humbling is to understand how our bodies work effectively.

Scott Emmens: Truly. I mean our bodies are a miracle if you think about it. How many different things have to go right for your body to work? It's amazing we can get up in the morning sometimes.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: True, very true. [laughs]

Scott Emmens: Component of the cell membrane and the cell membrane is typically like the fatty layer around that and mitochondria have their own cell membrane as well, correct?

Cynthia Thurlow: They do, they do. So, this phospholipid bi-layering and this is why things that we're exposed to our environment, our personal care products, our food, can all impact this in positive or negative ways. Understanding that we are contributing to components that are going to make this protective layer more effective and allow it to be optimized is certainly very exciting.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. We know that mitochondrial health leads to so many other things too including brain health, so, excellent. Now, the number of things that Inositol, Myo-inositol we're speaking about in particular, and we'll just say Inositol to keep it easy [Cynthia laughs] but it's all when we say Inositol, we're saying Myo-inositol. The amount of things that this product has been clinically studied for in the brain and then the amount of new and upcoming research really blew me away.

I had known about Inositol for many years. I've known many people that have taken it, but when I started to get into the research, as you and I were preparing the product and preparing this podcast, I just was really blown away by the amount of influence this could have on your mood, on your cognition, on the speed of your brain, on your sleep architecture. Let's talk about the things in the brain and why do you think it works there and why that's so important, and what are the core key things that are provable that we can stand behind the clinical data on?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, we know Inositol is very effective with brain signaling. Again, as we've already talked about, it's a component of our cellular membranes. Starting with protection of the blood-brain barrier being a previous ER nurse, there are specific substances that can cross the blood-brain barrier and others that cannot. Now that we understand a whole lot more about the gut microbiome and the interrelationship between leaky gut, leaky brain, understanding that Inositol can beneficial in helping to strengthen that blood-brain barrier.

The blood-brain barrier is designed to protect us, but in many instances, due to lifestyle, personal care choices, etc., can weaken this and can allow us to absorb substances into the brain that do not belong. I also think about neuroplasticity, which is this concept where it allows us to create new neural pathways. But it's also particularly beneficial with commonly recognized neurotransmitters like dopamine, acetylcholine, GABA, and serotonin, understanding that it can strengthen and improve these specific neurotransmitter pathways as well as communication between the neurotransmitters.

I think about glutamic acid or glutamate and GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter, and glutamate is this excitatory neurotransmitter and making sure that we're influencing the right neurotransmitter at the right time. You don't want to be stimulated when you're trying to go to bed. You want to have this inhibitory communication with GABA in particular. I also think about assisting and regulating sodium levels. We talk a lot about electrolytes on this podcast and how important they are knowing that Inositol is involved in the regulation of sodium. There's a sodium-potassium pump in the body across these cellular membranes and this in and of itself helps with maintenance of myelin sheaths that protect our neurons. Down to regulating electrolytes, but also protecting the fatty myelin sheath that allows for proper transmission impulses in between different brain cells I found particularly interesting.

Scott Emmens: I would have to agree. I'll start there but there were a lot of things I want to unpack with that one. So, the myelin sheaths to bring it into layman's terms are like the rubber around an electric cord and that rubber around electric cords keeps other electric cords from touching each other and shorting out. I think it was ALD, which was a nerve disease. The movie Lorenzo's Oil, do you remember that movie?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Scott Emmens: And his son had that disease. I might be getting the acronyms wrong or the verbiage wrong, but it was basically a disease of the myelin sheaths not being properly built. So, your myelin sheaths are so important because if they're not created well in your brain, then your neurons don't-- even if you have the neurons, but the myelin sheaths are brittle or not connected, you can have little shorts, little skips, and your cognition can decline.

That goes for all of your nerves, right? You've got to have really good myelin sheaths, which also goes back to the point on that bilipid layer that protects the cell. That's like a myelin sheath for the cell, different mechanism, but you've got to prevent those short circuits. That's really important for brain health and overall function cognition. So, I found that fascinating. The other thing, just to tap into it, as you had mentioned how it works with choline, etc. There was a study I read that choline in combination with Myo-inositol, is also beneficial.

Now, choline in itself is really good for your brain if you're not getting enough in your diet, so that's something we can talk about down the road. I do take choline every day with Myo-inositol, with my black coffee. By the way, it does sweeten my coffee just the smidge. it's not like sugar, but just a tiny little sweet taste. It's really made my black coffee more pleasurable.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's funny, after I was hospitalized four years ago, I remember I got out of the hospital and I craved red meat and I craved eggs. Eggs are rich in choline and I have eggs every single day, sometimes four or five at a time. I love that you're seeing this improvement in taking choline on a daily basis. The interrelationship with Inositol makes a great deal of sense. I also think about how Inositol can reduce inflammation by actually reducing pro-inflammatory cytokines. These inflammatory substances that we find in the body, some of which are inflammatory in terms of cytokines, others are not. And then also impacts thought processing. This was something that I tried to get really detailed about because I found this particularly interesting as we are getting older, especially women in particular, as we're losing estradiol, testosterone, and progesterone signaling in the brain that can impact how-- do we have brain fog, are we struggling with trying to find the words, understanding that thought processing as we're getting older can sometimes be mitigated by hormonal fluctuations? But understanding that there are things that we can include into our diet or supplement regimen that can help improve this. It's interesting that this one research article that I looked at, it was talking about how when serotonin and dopamine levels are not optimized, so these are two neurotransmitters. As these are not optimized, it can actually make anxiety and depression worse. This alone can impact cognition, memory and can contribute to some of the age-related decline that we see, but how the introduction of some of these lifestyle measures can make a huge net impact. Now I know for myself personally, I always say that I can accept a lot of things that are changing in my body as I'm getting older, but the brain piece I'm not willing to accept. So, I'm always trying to optimize and make sure I stay sharp. I have teenagers I have to stay on top of and running a business and just being a good human. And I'm curious for you, when you were doing your own research, what did you see that was specific to the neurotransmitter processing in the brain? Anything that you could add to that particular research that I had mentioned?

Scott Emmens: What I saw was similar to what you saw that it does enhance the brain's ability to maintain both the amount of dopamine and serotonin. But also, this part that you had mentioned, the neural pathways helping to support the growth of neural pathways. Well, if you can grow neural pathways faster when you're learning something new, to me that is a massive advantage because as we age, growing new neural pathways becomes pretty challenging. If you can do anything to help support that and I think that's why I like to take the choline with it along with other things that I think support that ability to grow neural pathways. I take a lot of things that have BDNF in them such as Lion's Mane, ginkgo biloba. They don't have BDNF in them. They help the body support its own BDNF.

Exercise, particularly aerobic exercise helps with BDNF, which is brain-derived neurotropic factor. Basically, that's your fertilizer for your brain to grow new neurons. That to me was a big one. But also, the speed with which and the balance which with the dopamine, serotonin and I think might have mentioned GABA in there as well. That sort of perfect balance, again, I use the word perfect. That improved balance to me was really the way that I was like, this is something I really feel like is going to be important for my long-term brain health. Because just like you, I can take-- I'm 52, my body's not going to bench press 300 pounds anymore. I'm okay with that. But I don't want my brain to decline to the point where I'm just two steps behind or feeling like I'm not 100%. I want my brain to get as healthy as it possibly can be because by the time I'm 80, right, whatever my baseline is now, it's not going to get better at 80. But If I can maintain it or make it a little better over the next couple of years and then maintain that for a while, I'm going to have a little bit more capacity as I age. To me, I think of all the things I worry about from a longevity health standpoint, it is 100% brain.

Cynthia Thurlow: One of the other really important/interesting distinctions about brain health as we are getting older is the potentiality of loss of insulin sensitivity and poor metabolic health. That understanding that at the basis of insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia is an upregulation and inflammation and oxidative stress which we know goes on to actually damage our neurons and our brains. Unfortunately, I think for many people, they don't understand the interrelationship that our brains in the latter stages of our lives 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond are made in our 40s and 50s. So, understanding how critically important metabolic health is not just to our bodies but also to our brains is so, so important.

Understanding that also maintaining insulin sensitivity can help with buffering these hormonal changes that are happening in women's brains and frankly men's brains as well. The number one reason why men are dealing with lowered testosterone levels is this loss of insulin sensitivity and also exposure to estrogen-mimicking chemicals as well as women as they're transitioning from perimenopause into menopause, they're losing estradiol signaling, progesterone signaling, testosterone signaling in the brain that can actually exacerbate underlying insulin resistance.

Scott Emmens: That's a serious problem. I have heard the type 3 diabetes analogy fairly often, actually came out of the diabetes world and at that point they were starting to use things like metformin and TZDs, which are insulin sensitizers for clinical trials and Alzheimer's. Now, I don't think those drugs were the right kind of drugs because they don't cross the blood-brain barrier. So, that's probably something to think about. But speaking of crossing the blood-brain barrier and these issues with keeping the cell structure intact, chemicals in our diet can actually make your blood-brain barrier more permeable and not in a good way. You want to make sure that you've got this, your blood-brain barrier, you're doing everything you can do to protect it because if it breaks down and negative chemicals get into the brain, you're going to have more death of neurons and keep your body in this constant state of inflammation that you just spoke about. That's another thing that in our diets there're a lot of different chemicals and additives and food additives that you don't even necessarily know are letting things penetrate your blood-brain barrier whether you're aware of that or not.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just even thinking, I did a great podcast with Jeffrey Smith, who's this incredible advocate that's doing amazing work educating people about the dangers of certain types of pesticides and herbicides like glyphosate. And understanding that glyphosate creates small intestine hyperpermeability aka leaky gut. Guess what? When you get a leaky gut, you got a leaky brain. Understanding that these things aren't entirely benign and just being conscientious, not feeling like you have to be fearful about your environment but just being informed, and understanding that things like grains, where you can get some exogenous sources of Inositol can also be challenging for the body to break down. I'm sure we'll probably talk about this, the role of phytic acid and exposure to these pesticides and herbicides that are designed to make, "Healthier crops," can actually lead to mineral issues, not being able to absorb as much minerals from the foods that we think we are, but also deal with some of the health implications of exposure to said herbicides and pesticides.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, we definitely have to talk about the phytic acid and natural exogenous sources of Inositol. Now, again, we had mentioned that the kidney and the liver make about 2 grams in the kidney and about a gram in liver. One of the studies I read, despite where it's made, the most concentration of Inositol is in your brain. Obviously, there's something that your brain needs with this natural body-producing compound that's critically important. Maybe it is time to get into the natural sources and why there are some issues there or did we skip something along the way?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's interesting, we touched on the fact that you can get some exogenous, which means outside the body, sources from nuts and grains and beans and fruit. What's interesting, though, is that in particular to grains, phytic acid is a component of a cell wall of plant-based food that can actually impair mineral absorption in the body. You may ingest said food, but your body may not be able to fully optimize. The statistic I read last night was that the average diet allows for 720 milligrams a day found in grains and seeds, but can be as low as 250 milligrams or as high as 1600 milligrams depending on the foods consumed.

It's interesting because as I was looking at different philosophies of research, organ meats can be a great source. I know that organ meats for many people are either things they don't like the taste of, the flavor profile, the texture, trying to get these into the diet. But I thought it would be interesting to kind of identify some of the things that can reduce our ability to be able to extract Inositol from food. Number one was insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia. That was number one and again only 7% of the population actually is metabolically flexible, so that's important.

Low salt intake, we unfortunately have conditioned an entire generation of clinicians and humans that you want to have a low-sodium diet. It's really that you want a less processed diet. Most of the salt that people are consuming is iodized salt, which is a low-quality type of salt. It's not per se that we shouldn't have salts in our diet because I'll be the first person to say we need high-quality salt, but it's the quality of salt that we're consuming. Antibiotic use, I mean, how many people listening have been on multiple rounds of antibiotics? I certainly have had the benefits of needing to take antibiotics, but then understanding that that's largely impacted my entire body diffusely. Then, interestingly enough, caffeine intake, so especially coffee can reduce your endogenous stores of Myo-inositol which I thought was really interesting.

Scott Emmens: You're bumming me out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, exactly and low magnesium. I'm always talking about magnesium anyway, but magnesium is critically important for the biosynthesis of Myo-inositol. Just get another reason why we need more magnesium replacement in our lives. You just can't get enough from eating organic foods or using a whiff of magnesium every day. I could go off on a whole magnesium tangent and my listeners know this, but those are just some of the ways that our modern-day lifestyles can impact our ability to create endogenous Myo-inositol and actually make it harder for us to keep our levels optimized in the body.

Scott Emmens: Absolutely. I read the same thing and it was kind of shocking to me because, again, I've done a lot of research on magnesium. When I read that magnesium was essential, "What is magnesium not essential to?" It seems to be essential to just about everything in the body. To your point, magnesium is drawn out of you for so many different reasons. Sodium, same thing, sodium is drawn out of you. I hear in the summer, you're going to need a lot of sodium. Because you're going to sweat out a lot of sodium. If you're a completely sedentary person or you don't-- hot sports or saunas are not your thing, or you're not a big sweater. maybe you only need 2000 milligrams a day. If you're an athlete especially a competitive athlete, you're going to need probably a lot more than 2000 milligrams of, to your point, quality sodium not processed sodium that's put into your processed pizza or from the old-fashioned little blue bottle there. It's iodized salt. You want a good quality, high mineral, high-quality mixture salt. And there're lots available. Yes, those are two critically important things.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting, there're over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body that utilize magnesium. This is just one of many examples of why low magnesium is going to impact all of these other processes. I'm the first person to say that when I was working in clinical cardiology, we would recommend transdermal. So, skin-absorbed magnesium and oral magnesium to be able to optimize levels. Just understanding that most magnesiums are not going to get you to where you need to be. More often than not, most people need two different ways of getting the magnesium in through the skin and then also orally.

Scott Emmens: I'm pretty tolerant of magnesium. I take a number of different kinds of magnesiums, different forms. One form I'm actually looking into a little bit more is magnesium chloride because it's already converted into an electrolyte. Whereas the other magnesium your body has to take it and convert it into magnesium chloride essentially to make it an "Electrolyte." I'm really looking at that as maybe the next thing I add to my diet. But magnesium in general, I take a lot of in a lot of different forms. I'll mix them up, but I want to get one foundational magnesium, which I take on a regular basis. I usually add a threonate or a gluconate or bisglycinate and I'm looking into actually two new kinds to potentially launch in the next few months. You can't get enough and there're all different forms.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting because listeners will ask. I use Ancient Minerals. They have a spray that you can use, a spray oil, and also a lotion very efficacious. That's what we used in electrophysiology, which is a subsect of cardiology. Typically, you spray into two cupped hands, you rub on your trunk and your arms and legs, leave on for 20 minutes and shower off, very cost effective. You can get it on the Ancient Minerals website or even probably Amazon.

The other magnesium that I think is most efficacious for me personally is magnesium L-threonate. I take that in powdered formulation usually before bed. That is one of the very few formulations that will cross the blood-brain barrier. For me, it's all about relaxation, sleep support and those are probably the two I use the most of. I would say if anyone listening has magnesium oxide in their medicine cabinet, in their supplement drawer, you only absorb about 11%, it is worth throwing in the garbage. It is so poorly absorbed by the body. That was what we used to use in the hospital a lot until I knew better. I always like to share that as a pearl. If you have it, toss it, you don't get much out of it, and you're essentially creating expensive urine.

Scott Emmens: Yeah. The reason that-- So, almost every magnesium you see at Walgreens or your Rite Aid or your general pharmacy, 95% of those are going to be magnesium oxide.

Cynthia Thurlow: Which is crap.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get 10% off my new magnesium supplement. Magnesium is such a crucial mineral in the body. It's involved in over 600 enzymatic processes. Basically, everything that you do requires magnesium including creating energy from your food, turning it into ATP in the mitochondria, boosting your antioxidant system. Magnesium has been shown to help with the creation of glutathione, regulating your blood sugar levels, affecting nerve health, muscle recovery, muscle contractions, supporting cardiovascular health and blood pressure, aiding sleep and relaxation, and so much more. It's estimated that up to two-thirds of Americans do not get the daily recommended levels of magnesium and on top of that magnesium deficiencies can often be silent because only 1% of magnesium is actually in our bloodstream, so that might not be reflective of a true magnesium deficiency. Our modern soils are depleted of magnesium. We're not getting it in our diet. That's why it can be so crucial to supplement with magnesium daily.

I wanted to make the best magnesium on the market and that is what Magnesium 8 is. It contains 8 forms of magnesium in their most absorbable forms so you can truly boost your magnesium levels. It comes with the cofactor methylated B6 to help with absorption as well as chelating manganese because magnesium can actually displace manganese in the body. My AvalonX supplements are free of all problematic fillers including rice which is very, very, common in a lot of supplements including some popular magnesium supplements on the market. It's tested multiple times for purity and potency and to be free of all common allergens as well as free of heavy metals and mold. And it comes in a glass bottle to help prevent leaching of toxins into our bodies and the environment. Friends, I wanted to make the best magnesium on the market and that is what this magnesium is.

You can get Magnesium 8 at avalonx.us and use the coupon code, MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off your order. That code will also work on all my supplements including my first supplement that I made, Serrapeptase. You guys love Serrapeptase, a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm that breaks down problematic proteins in your body and can help allergies, inflammation, wound healing, clear up your skin, clear brain fog, even reduce cholesterol and amyloid plaque. All of this is at avalonx.us. That coupon code MELANIEAVALON will also get you 10% off sitewide from my amazing partner, MD Logic Health. For that, just go to melanieavalon.com/md logic, you can also get on my email list for all of the updates. That's at avalonx.us/emaillist. I'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Cynthia Thurlow: Inevitably, there'll be lots of questions about why this supplement at this time. I think I've been very transparent that my focus for our collaborative work together is metabolic health, brain health, and certainly sleep support  because that's such a pain point for so many. I thought we could talk about a little bit of the indications for why this is the supplement that we chose to do now and then talk about dosing, and then talk about why MD Logic's standards are so high and how that has impacted the decision to kind of collaborate together. Just from a high-level perspective, 40% to 60% of perimenopausal and menopausal women have differing issues surrounding insomnia. Those are not my statistics, that's just statistics that I read. Overall, 10% to 30% of the overall population, both men and women, some as high as 50% to 60% by the second study I looked at. We know it's more commonly seen in women and I think a large amount of that is the fluctuations in progesterone, which oftentimes helps us fall asleep, and changes in estradiol, predominant form of estrogen as we're transitioning out of our cycling years into perimenopause helps us stay asleep.

There was an article, meta-analysis in Frontiers in Psychiatry that talked about in observational studies, there's a higher prevalence in women than men. I don't think we needed a study to confirm that just from talking to patients over the years. Certainly, a greater issue for women than men. And then understanding that Inositol helps us fall asleep and then if we wake up in the middle of the night, will allow us to fall asleep more easily. Even Huberman Lab talks about how Myo-inositol is part of his sleep stack. He uses it several times a week, just makes it part of his sleep stack. I love my own sleep stack, but this is an absolutely integral part of it. We know that Myo-inositol impacts serotonin levels which induces a sense of peace and calm, certainly the way that you want to be thinking as you're kind of heading off to bed, and then it also has direct communication with GABA. GABA is this inhibitory neurotransmitter that we find in the brain and can help support healthy function of the receptors there. Again, inhibitory neurotransmitter that we are positively impacting by the utilization and supplementation of Myo-inositol.

Scott Emmens: Yeah, the number of things that it does for sleep is really remarkable as we talked about the faster onset of sleep, the higher quality of sleep, the sleep architecture, the ability to fall asleep if you wake up. And that's my problem. I can fall asleep, but I will inevitably wake up at 1 in the morning, thoughts racing, and 2 hours later I'm still looking at a podcast or something and I can't fall asleep. Now, I try not to take my phone to bed, but when I wake up at 1 in the morning, I'm like I need something to kind of soothe my brain back to sleep, so that's great. I have a sleep stack too, which now includes Myo-inositol and I also do my melatonin with that as well as I'm just recently experimenting with L-theanine, which I'm really liking. I haven't quite dialed in the right dosage yet or like timing, but I really like L-theanine both during the day as a cognitive enhancer with my coffee. It keeps me from getting jittery and kind of balance that caffeine out. I take one of our products along with it, which is a choline, Alpha GPC, acetyl-L-carnitine, and phosphatidylserine blend. I take that along with L-theanine in the morning and then I take the L-theanine, the Inositol, and the melatonin at night. With that combo, I've been sleeping really well.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's great. It's interesting because I have found that if I take the Inositol every night it works better than just using it as needed. I do think there's some degree of cumulative effect. The therapeutic dose that I have found is 1 gram in the evening is very effective. If you look at research on polycystic ovarian syndrome or PCOS, you can definitely see therapeutic benefit from 2 grams twice a day. But obviously, if you're working with someone on your PCOS, an endocrinologist, a GYN, an integrative trained healthcare practitioner, they may have you on other items as well. So, definitely worth discussing with them. It's interesting, there was one research article that talked about dosing in menopause is 3 grams a night. I haven't experimented with that. But having said that, I think the nice thing is you can adjust. If I'm having a particularly stressful day, I may take 2 grams at night as opposed to 1 gram. I think a nice starting point is 1 gram. I do find that most of my patients do really well at that dose.

Scott Emmens: I've been doing about 3 grams and that's been the perfect amount.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sweet spot.

Scott Emmens: I take 1 gram in the day, 2 grams before bed. That seems to be my sweet spot, 4 grams seems a bit much, so I've kind of been balancing around 2 to 3 grams. One of the other things I wonder if it helps with sleep is and maybe this is because of the GABA, but it has been shown to reduce cravings for binge eating disorder. It's been shown to help in panic disorders. It's been shown to help with certain anxieties and OCDs. I just wonder if all of these also are contributing to the overall ability to sleep. If you have less anxiety, you're going to sleep better, or is that you're getting sleep, thus your anxiety is lower. Chicken and egg sort of thing. It just seems to be working across the spectrum of things that disrupt sleep.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think it's important just to understand that, as you mentioned the chicken or the egg, looking at it as what is contributing to the changes in sleep, for a lot of people, they're anxious by nature. It's hard to shut their brain off. Things like L-theanine as you mentioned and alluded to is a really nice amino acid. It's interesting we have components of L-theanine in green tea. We'd have to drink quite a bit to get enough L-theanine on board. That calming effect that you get from L-theanine that can be a nice adjunct to other types of sleep support. It would be remiss if we didn't at least touch quickly on metabolic health, I know we've talked a bit about it. We know only 7% of adults in the United States are metabolically healthy and fewer than one in 15 have optimal metabolic health. That means that you're not being treated for high blood pressure or elevated triglycerides. You don't have a waist circumference greater than 45 inches if you're a male, greater than 35 inches if you're a female. Means your fasting blood sugar is optimized, I like to say between 75 and 90, and you have appropriate levels of HDL. For women greater than 55, men greater than 45. Technically, the metabolic syndrome diagnosis is made when you have 3/5 of those.

We know that Myo-inositol can be helpful for insulin sensitizing. Then there's solid randomized controlled trials on this. We're not just sharing cherry-picking research. We're really looking at the research. It can effectively help to promote weight loss in conjunction with that. What I liked was there was one study that was talking about it can be used in conjunction with other medications like Glucophage, magnesium, progesterone in particular. You can utilize these concurrently. Again, if you're on any of these medications, talk to your prescribing provider. We're not providing medical advice. We're just providing guidance in terms of what the research is showing and it was interesting there was one article that talked about how utilizing Inositol with whey protein will help for better absorption. If you're not dairy intolerant like I am for a lot of other people, you could probably throw it in with a shake or make a protein pudding and know that you'll get better absorption from the whey utilization.

Scott Emmens: I did not read about that. But it's Interesting but now that I know coffee decreases Myo-inositol, I'm going to put 2 grams in my coffee in the morning.

[laughter]

Cynthia Thurlow: I think something that I think would be super helpful is to explain to listeners. We have this partnership together that we are co-collaborating on supplements. What is it about MD Logic that distinguishes your company from other companies on the market?

Scott Emmens: I think there're a couple of things. The first is what we've tried to do is a partner with people like yourself that have extremely high standards of what they are looking for. We don't do white label, which is private labeling, a product that you already make and then just putting someone else's name on it. That's not what we're about. We're about clinicians or people that are in the know that understand what they want in their supplement, what their customers want. That's the place we first start is who are the people we want to work with because we want to make sure that they are as committed to the quality as we are, that they're trying to do the best possible thing for their clients and patients because otherwise it would reflect negatively on us. So, that's where we start. It starts with the quality of who the client is that wants to create a supplement with us and then It goes through what we consider the gold standard of GMP.

Now, GMP has its baseline standards and many companies are GMP certified, but that doesn't mean they are GMP compliant. Meaning you can have a GMP facility that's had multiple violations over three to five years. I'm not suggesting that every company has to have a zero, never has had a GMP violation because they'll give you a violation for small things, potentially. When I say they that's the FDA. So, what we do is we start the process by looking at the ingredient itself, making sure that the ingredient itself, before it even comes onto the factory floor. Now, this is not necessarily what most companies do because you only legally have to test it at the end of the process. But we don't even want to bring the product into the door, into the quarantine facility where we make the products because if it's infected with mold or toxins, it could spill over to other things, so every product is tested for toxins, mold, heavy metals, purity, strength, and identity before it even gets into the facility.

Then what we do is we take that product and we create it in the perfect GMP process, which is, you have to make sure that the product is stored at a certain temperature. You have to make sure that you use certain specification sheets so even the documentation to make the product is important. We make sure that if we make what's called a variation from time to time or standard operating procedure that every one of those is filled out, that each process is followed, that the person in charge of the facility is following that SOP to the letter of the law, meaning if they say it has to be 6 inches above the ground, the product has to be stored 6 inches above the ground. All of our products are then stored and climate controlled. Then we send them out for testing. Some products we send out for third-party testing, but we do two in-house tests, which is, again we do all of those same things again at the end of the product. So, let's say we're making a combination product and we use seven ingredients. Well, after it goes through the whole process, you want to make sure of a couple of things. One, is it still as pure and clean as the day it arrived? And all of the strengths, purity and potency, and identity of those products what we said is in there.

So, if we said there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C, there's 100 milligrams of vitamin C. If we said there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, there's 200 milligrams of astragalus, and then is it pure? Does it still have the same levels of heavy metal as when it came into the factory? Or did it get exposed to something? So, it gets tested before it comes in. We follow all of those other regulations because if you leave something on the floor, it could get wet and it gets moldy. So, what came in as clean is now on your floor. It gets moist because it's on the concrete slab, and then it might create mold. We do the testing at the very beginning, all four of the GMP plus heavy metals.

For certain products, we'll send out for additional testing, such as enzyme products. We'll test out to make sure that the SPUs of an enzyme are active that there's what we say, how many-- 125,000 for our serrapeptase for example. We send that out for third-party testing to make sure that's how many active enzymes are in each of those capsules. It's not just an internal test, it's also external. Now, some folks say, "Oh, we third party test, but that also means that they third party, they're paying another client and another entity that they don't know this facility and they don't know if they're doing their job correctly. It sounds great to do third-party testing, but unless you know that third party really well and you know they're following all GMP, you really want to have your own ownership and oversight to make sure that the lab assistants are doing that job properly.

So, we do both an internal and [unintelligible [00:59:35] we need to we'll send things out for third party, on occasion we'll send things out if we're like questioning the potential toxins of something. We'll send it out for additional screening for pesticides, for example. We go through a very rigorous process. At then at the end, we also test it for shelf stability. Every single step along the way before it gets into the consumer's hand, it's been a chain of custody tested across the board for strength, compliance, identity, toxins, heavy mold, etc. At the beginning, at the end and it's climate stored from that process from the beginning to the end.

The only part of that process we can't control is if it's in a UPS truck in California. There might be a couple of hours, but we test things to make sure that they can withstand that kind of temperature for a couple of hours. Whereas when you go to a mega warehouse, let's just say box stores and shipping stores, for example, you have no idea how long it's been sitting there. You have no idea if GMP has been filed through that process. We feel really good about the products we send out because the ingredients are what we say, the purity is what we say, the heavy metals are what we say. We pass all of those tests on the front and the backend. That's what we feel really good about.

And then we work really hard to make sure that the product we're delivering has the least amount of toxic things in it and is the best for the environment it can possibly be, and we're working more and more towards that with each new product. Now, we're a young company, so we inherited some of the products we have, but each time we [unintelligible [01:01:11] a product, we're taking out the steroids and the palmitates, making it in a glass bottle to reduce phthalates in the world and plastics in general. You and I could talk about plastics forever. We're really taking extraordinary efforts to make sure that the product that shows up at your door is the best possible quality you can get.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I'm so grateful for that. I talk all the time about how most pharmaceutical grade companies don't third-party source to Amazon. I think a lot of individuals are surprised to know that buying pharmaceutical grade supplements is really the way to go if you're going to choose to take a supplement, making sure that you're purchasing from a company that has such a rigorous set of standards for evaluation, transportation, and preservation of their products. Now, for listeners that are still listening and tuning in, want to be fully transparent and share that the presale for Myo-inositol or Inositol starts on March 11th through the 19th. You can get 25% off and you can go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/inositol. That's I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful. From March 20th to the 31st, you can get 15% off. So, obviously, you want to jump on board when it goes on sale and then understanding that you don't need a code for the presale that will get you directly to the discounted price. Again. www. cynthiathurlow.com/inositol I-N-O-S-I-T-O-L, little bit of a mouthful but it's fully worth it. Scott, always a pleasure to connect with you. Let my listeners how to connect with you outside of the podcast, how to reach you on social media or your website.

Scott Emmens: The best place to reach me is @longevityprotocol on Instagram or #collagenguru on TikTok if that's your thing. But primarily I don't do Facebook, so you won't find me there. If you would like to get a hold of me directly to talk to me specifically about anything, you can reach out to, let me be specific, mdlogichealth.com is our website. Reach out to us there, just say, "Hey, I'd like to speak to Scott Emmens" and our assistant will get you in touch with me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Great. Thanks so much again, Scott. It's always a pleasure connecting with you.

Scott Emmens: Cynthia, pleasure as always. Thank you so much.

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks again for a wonderful podcast, Scott. Listeners can look for the show notes @ifpodcast.com/episode310 and submit questions to questions@ifpodcast.com or @ifpodcast.com. You can connect with us on social media. I am @cynthia_thurlow_ on Instagram or through my website, www.cynthiathurlow.com. And Scott may be reached at mdlogicwellness.com.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Mar 19

Episode 309: Low Carb Denver, Juicing Products, Detox Binders, Organic Produce, Glyphosate, Botox, Autophagy, Communion, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 309 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To Butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A 22 Oz Bag Of Gluten-Free Chicken Nuggets In Every Order For A Year Plus $20 Off!

LOMI: If You Want To Start Making A Positive Environmental Impact Or Just Make Clean Up After Dinner That Much Easier, Lomi Is Perfect For You! Turn Your Kitchen Scraps Into Dirt, To Reduce Waste, Add Carbon Back To The Soil, And Support Sustainability! Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

ATHLETIC GREENS: 75 High-Quality Vitamins, Minerals, Whole-Food Sourced Ingredients, Probiotics, And Adaptogens In One Delicious Scoop! Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get A 22 oz bag of gluten-free chicken nuggets in every order for a year Plus $20 Off your first box!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

AVALONX SERRAPEPTASEGet Melanie’s Serrapeptase Supplement: A Proteolytic Enzyme Which May Help Clear Sinuses And Brain Fog, Reduce Allergies, Support A Healthy Inflammatory State, Enhance Wound Healing, Break Down Fatty Deposits And Amyloid Plaque, Supercharge Your Fast, And More! 
AvalonX Supplements Are Free Of Toxic Fillers And Common Allergens (Including Wheat, Rice, Gluten, Dairy, Shellfish, Nuts, Soy, Eggs, And Yeast), Tested To Be Free Of Heavy Metals And Mold, And Triple Tested For Purity And Potency. Get On The Email List To Stay Up To Date With All The Special Offers And News About Melanie's New Supplements At avalonx.us/emaillist! Get 10% Off avalonx.us And mdlogichealth.com With The Code MelanieAvalon

Text AVALONX To 877-861-8318 For A One Time 20% Off Code for avalonx.us

Check out Cynthia's line of supplements at cynthiathurlow.com

19:10 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

22:15 - Listener Q&A: Amy - What are the benefits for GI detox and juicing products with a fasting schedule?

39:50 - Listener Q&A: Carla - Botox and autophagy

IN DEFENSE OF LOW FAT: A CALL FOR SOME EVOLUTION OF THOUGHT (PART 1)

45:50 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

47:15 - Listener Q&A: janie - Teas

52:00 - Listener Q&A: Denise - Communion 

56:50 - Listener Q&A: Courtney - What is the one skin care product you can't live without??

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 309 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off. That's right free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year plus $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate-free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value.

Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home.

ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. That's a 22-ounce bag of gluten-free chicken nuggets in every order for a year plus $20 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare, and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like the Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 309 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. You went-- it was a Low Carb Conference in Denver?

Cynthia Thurlow: It was and I have to say that the quality of the speakers and clinicians and researchers was just phenomenal. It was so nice to be at a big event and feel like everyone really brought really strong presentations and lecture skills. And obviously, I love being in Denver. My mom and her siblings grew up in Denver, so I spent most of my summers there, and I've forgotten about the altitudes. [laughs] For those who are coming from the East Coast or at sea level, I don't care how fit you are if you're sensitive to altitude like I am, boy, it was like the first 24 hours and then tracking Oura Ring data and trying not to obsess over the fact that I just could not stay hydrated. It's really always fascinating to me, but I think this was much more magnified because I was doing so much talking and socializing much more than I would normally do. It was a great experience. Always good to see so many of those people that I really appreciate and value in the space.

Melanie Avalon: And you met Rick Johnson?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did. He is even more delightful in person and he's so gracious, I think your listeners, my listeners know this certainly is one of the most downloaded podcasts for 2022. He sat in on my lecture and sat in-- we had a panel afterwards and Sean Baker was on that panel and some other very recognizable people. And he was so gracious, there are people asking questions that were better suited for him. And so, I would say, Dr. Rick, did I get that right? [laughs] He is such a lovely human being. He is as delightful as one could imagine to meet him in person. I'm sure he probably reached out to you as well and has a new paper that he wants to discuss. I was saying, I was like, you're an A++ list player anytime you want to come on the podcast. He's just a wonderful human being and so smart and just humble and gracious and lovely, and it's nice to have people like that in the space.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I love him so much. He emailed his new paper. It's with Dr. Perlmutter.

Cynthia Thurlow: He is with Perlmutter and I think Dale Bredesen, too.

Melanie Avalon: It's about the connection of, I think, fructose to Alzheimer's. I haven't read it yet. I just looked at the title, but I was like, of course, you could come back on. And then he was like, I'm going to Low Carb Denver and I'm going to see Cynthia. I just love that man.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and what's funny is I talked about something that I don't typically talk about, certainly not a whole lot on social media, certainly not at an event like that. For anyone out there who, when you do something new and you feel like you have a little bit of imposter syndrome, although I'm very comfortable speaking to an audience. There I am and I've got Rick Johnson in the audience who's really the fructose expert, and there I am talking about the obese insulin-sensitive patient and reviewing research. It was really, really interesting. But, yeah, it was a great experience as always. There were a lot of amazing people there.

There were Ben Azadi and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Ken Berry and Chris Palmer. I mean, just heavy hitters in that space that are doing such amazing work. And even a few people I had not yet met before, which was nice. I always enjoy meeting new people. There were individuals that traveled from outside the United States that were Australian physicians and Israeli physicians that were there that are using keto therapeutically with their patients. It was exciting to be there and obviously meet so many people that listen to this podcast and my podcast and follow us on social media. It's one of those things I love. I love meeting everyone and talking to everyone. It's a great experience.

Melanie Avalon: So fun. I love it. It's funny when I, on the few rare occasions I do travel, I just don't look at my Oura Ring because I don't want to know if i didn't--

Cynthia Thurlow: It was impressive. My readiness score was down by 20, 30 points. Just prior to going on this trip, I have a new functional medicine doc in my area who I think is probably one of the smartest physicians I've ever met in my entire life, which says a lot, because I think I've worked with a lot of really amazing clinicians, and he's putting pieces together about my background. It turns out I have mild dysautonomia. If any listeners are familiar with POTS, postural orthostatic hypotension, I have a very mild degree of that and I've always suspected, but I didn't have it significantly, and certainly, we saw a lot of very sick people that have that. So, never really had that on my radar, but it makes sense why I need electrolytes and water as much as I do.

He said I think you've figured that out for yourself and you've done that for a long time. I think if you didn't take such good care of your health, you probably would not be feeling quite so good. But I failed a bunch of tests, so very humbling. On top of knowing that about myself, I just kept saying, I can't stay hydrated enough. It's just with the elevation. I drank two liters of watermelony when I landed and I still was dehydrated, even with electrolytes, I was like doubling up on LMNT, like two packets of LMNT in everything of water I was drinking, and still couldn't get over that hump. It was very humbling. [laughs] Very humbling. Exceedingly humbling.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. When did you find that out? Just recently?

Cynthia Thurlow: Gosh, probably about a week and a half ago. The provider I'm working with has got me testing all sorts of things, and he was like, listen, I think you're hypermobile. You've got dysautonomia, you've got this gut health, these autoimmune things that are going on. He's kind of connecting all the pieces, which no one's ever done for me before. I feel like maybe finally we'll get some good answers. I think all of us deserve to have really good care and really good clinicians. But I feel like for me, personality wise, I'm really well matched with this individual.

He's actually been a guest on the podcast, ironically, the new city that we moved to. He happened to be here. It has worked out very serendipitously, but he knows how to handle me. I say that with love and reverence because there's generally nothing worse than another healthcare provider as your patient. But I just said, listen, I surrender. I'm not going to micromanage. I'm very directable, very coachable. Whatever you tell me to do, I'm going to do. I may have to think about it before I do it, but I'm going to do it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Well, I hope it's empowering that you learn how to come out better, knowing now that you have that, that's crazy.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's definitely one of those things when the provider becomes a patient, you really have to put your trust in someone. I feel very grateful that I'm in a position that I can have him as my healthcare practitioner and someone that I know is going to move heaven and hell if necessary to get the answers. So, we've got all sorts of gadgets. I'll have to put this on stories. We're testing our water, but it's testing water to a degree to which I've never seen this kind of testing before. There's a whole kit in my kitchen that I have to take care of after this call. Test our water, because he's not he's convinced that there's something unique to Richmond. And so, yeah, never a dull moment. So, the provider is now the patient.

Melanie Avalon: Keep us updated.

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well, it's a little crazy. Like, my husband was like, you're already a little intense and now it's like taking it up 100-fold. I was like, well, it's okay because it's me. I don't stress about it. I'm just like we're going to get information. It's all good.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. It's the way I am for sure. I have an announcement for listeners and hopefully, people were on the email list, so that they got this announcement. But we are doing, I'm going to try to extend it through today for people who are listening to our show today. A launch special where you can actually get 25% off grandfathered in for life. If you are enjoying serrapeptase and want to keep it in your life, now is the time.

If you currently have a subscription, you can switch over to this bottle option. We're going to be sending an email about that. And even if you're on the current subscription and you didn't get that amazing discount, when you switch over you will get it. Now is the time, but just as a brief refresher for people. Serrapeptase is a proteolytic enzyme created by the Japanese silkworm, and it breaks down proteins in your body, problematic proteins, not the good proteins that you want to keep.

It's not autophagy, but it's that concept that we talk about a lot. And so, it can help with inflammation. It will completely clear your sinuses. It can reduce cholesterol, break down fibroids. It's just anti-inflammatory, so many things. I'm obsessed with it. That's why I made it my first supplement. So, definitely consider getting that subscription. And again, the information about it was sent on the email list. So, that's at avalonx.us/emaillist. Also, you can get text updates if you text AvalonX to 877-861-8318. Just as a reminder, the reason I made this whole line is because I'm very suspicious about supplements and I wanted to create the highest quality, best of the best of everything. And that's honestly what this is.

And, oh, something really exciting. Cynthia, last week there was this report on a major news site. It was like a major report about berberine and it was very third-party objective, I was not involved in this at all. It was exciting because they were talking about the berberine market and listing all these brands, and then they had a section where they talked about up-and-coming berberine brands and they included me. I was so excited. It makes me feel like a real, I don't know, real product creator. Like, seeing this stuff getting picked up in third-party organic news is very, very exciting.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, that's wonderful. I think it's probably very affirming to know that that was included in that publication.

Melanie Avalon: It was really exciting. Lots of good things coming, but yeah. Anything else from you?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, the thing that's really exciting my second supplement Inositol will be out in a couple of days and we'll have a whole episode. The next episode after this will be talking about the science behind it, why I chose to select this as the next supplement in my line. The Creatine has just done so well even with subscriptions. I've been really very grateful and humbled, and the feedback on it has been amazing and I know that the Inositol will be the same. For anyone that's listening that's not familiar with that, it is a supplement that has been really well researched, helpful for not just metabolic health, but also brain and cognition, sleep support, in particular, helping to induce sleep. If you wake up in the middle of the night, it helps people get back to sleep as well. Even Huberman Lab has been talking about Myo-Inositol. So, from my perspective, it's another supplement that a lot of clinicians and researchers are speaking up about in greater support of. It's just an easy way to support the body. I've been taking it for over a year, and I think it's had a lot of net benefits not only with helping monitor and help maintain healthier blood sugars, but also help with sleep support in a way that's really benign.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. I just realized we didn't give links. So, my website is avalonx.us. And where can people get that and where can they get on the email list? And when is the exact launch date?

Cynthia Thurlow: Launch date is March 24th. You can go directly to my website. There'll be a little box on the main website, so it's www.cynthiathurlow.com and you'll be able to click on the link and you will get access to the Inositol. We're calling it Inositol just to keep it, it's a little wordy and its sometimes awkward to say it, but we'll provide explanations as to what form of Inositol is, it's the one that has all the benefits I referred to.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt. But it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. So, it was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me, wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible.

Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into the dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around six to eight weeks, and maybe even up to a year. But nope with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane. Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants.

And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco-Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi-Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi-Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow Mode. That's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration, and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with. If you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well turn your food waste into the dirt with the press of a button with Lomi, use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's lomi.com/ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

Well, we can jump into some questions for today. So, to start things off, this is left over from our AMA grab of questions that comes from Amy, and she wants to know "What are the benefits of GI Detox and juicing products with a fasting schedule." I know we've talked about this on the show before, but I don't think we have with you, Cynthia. So, I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have differing opinions on some of these things. GI detox is a binder and it can bind to a lot of different things that you're exposed to. I take GI Detox with me when I travel in case I, God forbid, happened to get a little bit of food poisoning or get exposed to things I don't want. So, binders act as a catcher's mitt, so whether it's heavy metals or toxins that you're exposed to, I always like to remind people that GI Detox in particular is a branded supplement of a binder. Usually has apple pectin, some dichotomous clay or earth. You just want to make sure that if you're consuming the GI Detox, you're not taking it around other products, supplements, or medications because it will bind kind of like a catcher's mitt. It'll bind to everything that you are exposed to. So, usually, I'll say 30 to 60 minutes prior to a meal or 2 hours after.

If you're taking in a fasting window, likely not an issue, but just being conscientious about what you're taking around it. Juicing products, it's kind of a fun variation of fasting while still getting some nutrients. Now again, you're going to technically break a clean fast. I do have this as a variation in my book, people can utilize. But I'm talking about green juices. I'm not talking about sugary juices. I'm talking about cold-pressed juice that has not been pasteurized. Either making your own or purchasing from an organic juice company. I like The Weekly Juicery, that's usually who I recommend. I don't have an affiliate link. I do just like their products and they can ship within the continental United States. We're talking about green juices. Green juices are not going to have this adverse net effect on blood sugar. There're a couple of different ways to do it. Some people just use green juice to break their fast as an opportunity just to stay hydrated. Some individuals like to consume six juices throughout the day and just have a digestive rest day.

Again, this is another idea around fasting. It's not clean fasting because you're actually consuming some food. A lot of my patients and clients like this because it's just a hydration piece and then they're super well-hydrated throughout the day. I think that it's important just to know we're not talking about the pasteurized juices at your grocery store that have 30 grams of sugar per juice. This is really green juicing. It's mostly-- you know it's very herbaceous, I'll just put it that way. Whether it's kale or celery, I mean, these are very herbaceous juices that don't have-- they have little to no sugar in them. Again, Weekly Juicery is who I usually point people to because they ship throughout the United States, and it's organic, and it's cold pressed, and it's not heat pasteurized, so it doesn't denature the intrinsic enzymes of the vegetables or maybe they've got lemon. It's not going to denature the properties intrinsically of these items. You mentioned that you've answered this question before. What were you and Gin saying about these subjects in particular?

Melanie Avalon: It's been a while. I'm trying to remember Gin's opinion. Well, I remember my opinion, which is still pretty much the same. Although interesting quick sidenote, I feel so silly when I was reading this question, I didn't realize she was talking about a product there with GI Detox. I thought she was saying the benefits for GI detox, but obviously, it's a product because that doesn't really make sense in context. Juicing, I think it's very nuanced and a little bit complicated because I think people often have a black-and-white view of juicing, where it's like the most amazing thing and they may think they just drink all the fruit juices and it's going to save them, which does seem to happen for some people. But I think often, in that case, it's where people are coming off of a processed diet, have certain health conditions, and then they go into this state where they're really just giving their GI system a rest because they're basically just taking in instant energy.

And then it's high in vitamins and hydration and then it often ends up becoming calorie restriction because it's hard to drink that much juice and be in a calorie excess. Although you can do it, especially if you're drinking really sugary drinks. But basically, I feel like the mechanisms of why it works probably extend beyond, why some people think it works, which is that it's just this magical juice itself. When I think it might be a lot of factors involved when you get really-- I don't want to say restrictive, but there're a lot of factors that going in besides the actual juice. Like I just said, the rest of the GI system, the ease of processing that energy. Something else really interesting, and this might be getting a little bit on tangents, but another thing about juicing is that it is essentially fat free, so if you're doing a juice fast is what I'm talking about.

She's talking about juicing products. I guess she might be talking more about having juicing while still eating because having a fasting schedule. Like juice fast, that essentially is like a completely fat-free approach and people will do that for days, and people who are really overweight will do it for days and days. I know there's a documentary that made it famous where that guy did it for, like, weeks. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like a really famous documentary that I feel like made this really popular. Do you remember it?

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm embarrassed to say, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon: He was fat, sick, and nearly dead. When did that come out? 2010, 60 days. It was an Australian guy, and he did it for 60 days. I feel like that made juicing pretty popular. And the especially things like medical medium and the celery juice and all of that. The interesting thing I want to say about that is, in general, I am very hesitant about hitting our bodies with massive loads of glucose and sugar. I do think in a juicing context, it's a little bit protective because you're literally just taking it in and burning it and there's no fat with it that would be exacerbating metabolic problems with taking in that high load of sugar. I'm not saying that it's fine to just take in lots of sugar. There have been studies where people have health benefits and even beneficial effects on blood sugar levels on extremely high-carb diets. For example, there's this really fun blog post by Denise Minger. Did you ever follow her?

Cynthia Thurlow: No.

Melanie Avalon: She wrote really, really epic long blog posts that were very, very solid. I don't know what she's doing now. She doesn't really blog anymore, but I used to just absorb her content. But she has a really good book called In Defense of Low Fat: A Call for Some Evolution of Thought (Part 1). I don't know if she ever did Part 2, because she tends to do like me where she would just post really epic long blog posts and then you wouldn't hear from her for a while. I'll put a link in the show notes, though. But she has a really good overview of research done in the 1930s by a guy named Walter Kempner. And he did research on tons of patients. It says 18,000 patients with kidney issues and diabetes, and he would treat them with essentially a fat-free diet and, like, reverse their conditions and I realize I am on a rabbit hole, but the point of this is, I think people can get benefits from, ironically, a high glucose load in the context of actually fat-free approach with something like juicing.

It is not fasting [laughs] in the sense of fasting like we talk about. You're not going to be in ketosis. You are taking in nutrients. You're taking in calories. I just see it as a different tool or something to try. I think some people can do really well with it and do it for however long they're doing it, and some people will have crazy blood sugar swings, and it just won't work for them. So, I think you need to know you.

And then another caveat. I'm glad you brought up the organic bit Cynthia and this is just me, I would not juice with conventional juice from anything. Yeah, that actually makes me really nervous because the amount of pesticides and glyphosate and things like that, you're just going to get that in a massive bolus if you're taking in the juice, especially because glyphosate is water soluble. So, you're basically just hitting yourself with a potentially high load of that. That actually does make me very nervous. I know that's like debated because some people will say-- because this actually for me extends to some produce in general. Some people will say it's better to have conventional produce than none at all. I actually don't know. I wish we had charts that would actually show the amount of pesticides and produce, conventional, because it might turn out that some conventional produce is fine and it might turn out that some has exuberantly high amounts, kind of like mercury and fish. That's the whole thing to think about. But I also like your idea, Cynthia, about some people opening their window with juicing products. I think that's great. I also agree with everything you said. Now that I know she's talking about that detox product. You nailed it with all of that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. I'll be completely transparent and say that we know that celery juice as an example can be anti-inflammatory always in the context of the individual, because I'm sensitive to oxalates, so I have to be careful how much I do of them. I think that has a lot to do with continued persistent healing of my gastrointestinal tract. But I think for a lot of people, I think they're pleasantly surprised at how it makes them just feel more hydrated. And I think it's very individual. Like, obviously weekly juicer is an option or if you have a local juicer, you can make your own. It's just a variation of fasting. I think for some people, like the novelty of it because it's just different. And so that's certainly reasonable, but I love that you brought up the contamination and why it's so important to be conscientious about organic options if they're available to you.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I know we've talked about this before, but I just really think it is more of an issue than a lot of people realize. I think it is a good analogy to mercury in fish because you don't see it. Can you imagine if we could actually see these toxins?

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, God. I probably never leave my house. I was telling my-- I was on social media sharing what my go-to meals are when I'm traveling. It's usually like a naked burger or a steak. I had a naked burger two days in a row for lunch and then had steak for dinner, and I was completely happy. But I had dinner with Ben Azadi on the last night, there was a VIP dinner and we're sitting next to each other. Ben whips out this card that he's created. I know that our mutual listeners know Ben because he's been on our podcast and Ben is a really good friend of mine, and it's a card that says he has an allergy to seed oils. And so, it's really nicely done. I looked at Ben and I was like, "Ben, I can't worry about that tonight." He sent his meal back and out came a meal that had no seed oils and the meal looked completely different. And everyone at the table was like, "Well, that's great now." [laughs] It's challenging to navigate going out and knowing what you-- when you don't have full control over how your meal is prepared and how your food is prepared. Yeah, it led to some very interesting discussions. Of course, everyone at the table was like, that's brilliant that he carries that because his meal looked totally different than our meal did.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's so funny. Two things, one, when he came on my show recently, which we haven't aired it yet, but he talked about that card, so it's exciting to hear it in person. What type of restaurant were you at?

Cynthia Thurlow: There was a VIP dinner at the Gaylord Rockies. This is this big massive hotel that has like 1500 rooms. I mean it looks like a mini city. And so, we were there having this, it was a keto, low-carb compliant meal, but it still had seed oils in it. And so everyone at the table had just started to eat and I was like I'm looking at this beautiful bison filet and asparagus and cauli rice, and it looked really good, but it definitely generated some interesting conversation for everyone.

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. Over the weekend, my brother had his birthday dinner. Have you been to Chattanooga?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: Such a cute little city. There is a restaurant there, the chef has five James Beard Awards. It's called Opa! and it's crazy. He's this Greek guy and it literally feels like you're in a Greek village and he comes out and he just says, meat or no meat. You just say, meat or no meat. He just brings out the food, so there's no menu, and he just brings out wine from his local village and it's all inclusive, free flowing, and then at the end, you break plates, you throw and smash plates. It was an entire experience. But leading up to it, there was a lot of drama in my family because my family they like literally-- because it was my brother's fiancé planning it. They didn't want me to come because they thought I was going to not be able to eat or have a lot of requests. And I was like, "It's fine, guys, I can like adopt. It'll be okay." What's funny is I ended up going and I think everybody realized that they were making a big deal out of nothing because it really was okay. But it was the one time that I can remember that I wasn't able to make modifications because I didn't want to make-- I don't know.

They were really specific that they didn't want me to ask for modifications. It was really interesting, though, because I actually called the chef beforehand and was like, is that okay if I was like, "I really just eat, like, meat." And he's like, "Oh, of course." He's like, "That is my pleasure too." He's like, "I make you happy." So, it ended up being fine. But I will just say, stepping back from that, I'm going to be so grateful in the future to be able to make modifications because I just feel better.

I mean, the food was delicious and I don't know what type of oils it had if anything, and he does make it all fresh, but I just feel so much better when I do make those restaurant modifications. It's just worth it to me. But I do find it really interesting that people-- it was interesting to hear about that experience with Ben because a lot of people are probably on the same page. It can be hard to navigate the restaurant world and feel, like, accepted or that it's okay to make those requests.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think for anyone listening, I just stick to the gluten, dairy when I'm out. I try very hard to otherwise just be open. Like, we don't eat out a lot for a multiplicity of reasons. All right, here's something to disclose to the listeners. My husband, when I went from being a clinician predominantly to an entrepreneur, he kind of stepped in. He's kind of little bit OCD about food, so he stepped in as like the head meal prep person. Yes, my husband does meal prep and it's awesome and I'm grateful for it. We divide and conquer that's kind of our mindset around household chores and things for the kids.

He's a really good cook and therefore I enjoy going out to dinner for more of a social experience. Nine times out of ten, I'd be happier just eating at home. And that's how all of us are. As I'm listening, I'm like, we so rarely eat out that when I go out, I try to make sure we're going to a locally sourced, they're using grass-fed meat and things like that, and wild-caught fish. Beyond that, I try to just acknowledge, like I always say, it's like 90/10. If I get a little bit of seed oils when I'm out and I'm unaware of it, I'm just going to leave it as I'm unaware of it because otherwise I would not enjoy [laughs] my meal. Although I respect people that are even more conscientious than I am about when they go out to dinner. I'll just put that in there just to say that for full transparency, we prefer eating in.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, I'm similar to you in that. Well, I do love the food aspect, but I really just love the social aspect of everything. In general, I think we talked about this on a recent episode as well, that situation aside where there literally was no menu and my family didn't want me to make additional requests, even though, interestingly, I will say the chef was so nice. He was all about it. He kept coming and checking and being like, "Are you all happy?" I think it actually would have been fine if I had made additional requests, but that's okay. I think once you do find your system of ordering, however, makes you happy. So, like with you, Cynthia, the gluten free, dairy free, and then kind of ending it there, like I think just finding what works for you is the best way to go. It sounds like Ben's card thing is pretty cool. I should get that.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's hilarious. I mean, I was like, you're brilliant. I will give you all of the props. I put into my stories, and people were like, how can I get that? [laughs] I was like, "If you want exactly this? This is where you go to." But I think it's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon: I love it. I love it, love it. Awesome. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Carla. Subject is Botox and autophagy. "I've gotten Botox in my forehead for several years. I'm thinking about all the things I want autophagy to do in my body. It begs the question, does autophagy work to clean up the Botox and therefore not work on other more important things? I've started to have this mindset of not wanting to waste my autophagy processes on things I can control. I suspect I am insulin resistant among a few other things and I think it would be wise to stop Botox for a while until I see improvement in those areas. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thanks, ladies."

Melanie Avalon: All right, Carla, so this is a great question. So, for listeners who are not-- I mean, I think a lot of listeners are familiar with Botox, but I think a lot don't actually might not realize what it is, because I didn't. It is the botulinum toxin and it paralyzes muscles. It's preventative. Basically, if you paralyze your muscles, then you're not creating the contractions that create the wrinkles to form in your face in the first place. So, it's like freezing your face essentially. You can also use it for different health conditions. I've started getting it in my jaw, actually, for TMJ, so I'm very excited to see how that goes. It was something that I thought a lot about. By the way, if you live in Atlanta, I go to Slim Studio. I love them there. If you go, tell them I sent you. But I did a lot of research on it because it is a neurotoxin which sounds concerning.

I think in the end, it's mostly a cost-benefit thing of-- are the benefits that you get from that worth whatever detrimental side effects there might be to having that toxin in your body? Most people don't experience any cognitive side effects like they don't realize having side effects from the actual neurotoxin in the muscle. Granted we don't have super-duper long-term studies on it, but I just think you have to look at the return on investment for that. As far as Carla's specific question about autophagy cleaning up Botox, well, stepping back, on the one hand, I think it's great that things like autophagy and these cellular processes are becoming much more conventional or understood especially in our world.

Moving beyond that, they are so much more complicated than I mean, definitely than I understand. I think a lot of us understand. So, I think we tend to see autophagy and we make these assumptions about what it works and what it does when it's probably a lot more complicated than that. What I mean by that is I don't know that you have this limited amount of autophagy and that it's cleaning up Botox. I just don't know that that is what is happening, [laughs] if that makes sense. I wouldn't even look-- and this is just me, but I wouldn't even look at it in that framing. I would look on it more on the toxin side of things, because Carla you talk about having these different health things that you're working on and wanting to reduce that burden and I think that's a great framework.

If you're working on health things, you want to do whatever you can to reduce your toxic burden, so that would be all encompassing. Your skincare and makeup products. We talk about Beautycounter all the time on here, your food, your lifestyle, and then when it comes to something like the Botox, so injecting that neurotoxin into your muscle, I think you really have to look at a big picture, the potential side effects of that small amount of neurotoxin in your muscle that your body will metabolize at some point compared to the beneficial effects that you get from it. It might be that the beneficial effects, like the happiness that you get from Botox, I mean, you can make the case that that provides so much more-- because mental, emotional health is really, really important in our health as well. If it's making you happy, then that might outweigh the small amount of neurotoxin that you're injecting.

I think you've just got to think about it, look at the cost benefits and see what matters to you. But I wouldn't necessarily look at it and like I have this X amount of autophagy that is cleaning up this amount of stuff, because I don't even know if autophagy is involved in Botox processing. I Googled it and there was definitely not studies on it. [laughs] So Cynthia, what are your thoughts?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have to agree. I don't think the minimal amount of Botox that's being injected into those muscles to paralyze them is per se taking away from the big picture of autophagy that goes on in a fasted state. That upregulation of the waste and recycling process. I think that certainly, Carla is kind of alluding to some other things that she wants to work on. I would worry less about the Botox and I would focus more on reducing her insulin resistance, getting tested, getting information, and finding out how all the variables I mean, I literally just talked about this at Low Carb Denver, the insulin-sensitive obese or overweight patients because there're assumptions made. There're certainly lots of things that can be done. Obviously, fasting is one of them. But I would turn your concerns towards the foods that you're eating and your sleep quality and your stress management and are you strength training and are you working through your personal care products and your food and your environment, estrogen-mimicking chemicals and how there's this whole toxic theory of obesity and how that can impact insulin resistance? I would focus more on those areas is what I'm essentially saying. I think that there's no research that I was able to find. I concur with you Melanie and certainly, I think big picture, there are other things to focus on.

Melanie Avalon: That's the way to frame it, big picture.

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Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Jamie. The subject is teas and Jamie says "Hello. I'm still unclear about which teas are clean. I was hoping you could clarify for me, please. I drink herbals, chamomile at nighttime before bed consisting of oat flower, licorice root, lavender flower, lime flower, tulsi leaf and valerian root and red bush without milk with natural oil of bergamot to give it an Earl Gray flavor. Are these considered clean from a fasting perspective? Many thanks and best wishes," Jamie.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Jamie, these are the types of questions that are so common for us to receive. I think it's all about keeping things pretty simple if we're looking at clean fasting. When I start seeing all these different flower essences and I know nothing about oat flower, obviously, licorice root, I don't know how that's prepared. I would say, when in doubt, leave it out and just enjoy this in your feeding window, you mentioned the Rooibos tea and then the natural oil of bergamot. I just kind of think that might be something that's processed because it says to give it an Earl Gray flavor.

Again, when in doubt, leave it out and enjoy in your feeding window. I think about really simple things like ginger tea, green tea, black tea, really keeping it simple, and it's designed to be bitter. When you start introducing all these other flavor profiles, I start thinking potentially depending on how it was processed and we're really getting nuanced here, and I don't want anyone to stress about this, but the more that's done to the tea leaves themselves to make them palatable, I just think that deals with more processing.

I don't know if anyone knows this, but actually most teas are also highly contaminated. This is something where it's worth it to spend a little bit more money and get an organic version. I like Pique tea. I like their green tea a lot. I don't prefer black tea it's a little scooch too bitter for me. But when I'm really trying to ensure I'm getting those beneficial polyphenols, I try to be conscientious about sourcing. Just kind of as an aside, don't stress about this, but the more that's done to the product to get it on the market, the more processing or exposure to oils, etc., the more I get concerned that there might be things in there that we want to avoid in a fasted state.

Melanie Avalon: Is Pique tea, that's Jason Fung's company, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: Pique. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Pique. Okay. Did he do anything special for it to make it?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's like carefully sourced and it's super clean. I believe it's organic. Yeah, it's sustainably sourced USDA organic certified and triple toxin screened. They're sourced in the highest quality family farms from all over the world. Yeah, saying they are amongst the world's greatest and most protected sources of biodiversity.

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Yeah, because I'm glad you brought up that aspect because going back to what we're talking about earlier with the juices, the toxins and teas can really be a problem. I know even, like, heavy metal contamination in teas is an issue a lot.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Oh, absolutely. It's something that I think a lot of people just don't realize. It's like I don't want people to then be paranoid, but yes.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. I thought that was a very comprehensive answer.

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think I understand because tea can be super delicious and some of these attributes, I'm sure make this wonderful synergistic flavor profile. But when it starts getting complicated, I'm just like, listen, just have the bitter tea.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I remember when I was-- and this was probably when I was doing fasting and low carb, but I wasn't paleo yet. I would drink, like, all the teas and there was this Sugar Cookie Sleigh Ride tea that Celestial-- Oh, I would drink all the Celestial Seasonings Teas.

Cynthia Thurlow: They're all super sugary. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Or they're like very flavory. I remember that Sugar Cookie one was so delicious, but then I remember it actually said that it was not gluten free and I was like, whoa.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. It's interesting because I was just in London and we did this whole high tea service, which was so much fun. My cousin was like, dare I ask?-- [laughs] She was like, dare I ask? I was like, "Oh God," I mean, we're in London. They should have high-quality tea, right?

Melanie Avalon: Was it? No.

Cynthia Thurlow: They were like, "Well, you know we sourced from here. Yes, it should be, but we don't with 100% certainty." And I was just like, microplastics and all sorts of things that have the potential for being in our teas, which no one wants that.

Melanie Avalon: Yup. Okie dokie. Shall we go on to our next question?

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Denise. Subject is communion. "Loved your book and everything it has taught me to totally change my life and lose 44 pounds so far and still going. Here's my question. I had been away from church since I started intermittent fasting mainly due to work, but have recently gone back and stopped working on Sundays. As soon as I put the host in my mouth, it dawned on me that I just ended my fast for the day several hours too early. I love God, but is there anything I can do next Sunday so this doesn't happen again? I like the fasting approach I'm using, so I'd rather not change it. I was thinking maybe I could take the host home until it's time to have lunch, but I'm not sure if that's acceptable either. I have a feeling you've come across this question before and I'm curious to see your answer. Doing a search didn't specify anything to do with intermittent fasting and communion only religious fasting. I'll appreciate any insight you might have. Have a lovely day," Denise.

Melanie Avalon: All right, Denise. Thank you so much for your question. This also is one we've answered on the show, but it was a while ago. And so, I am excited to hear Cynthia's answer. For my answer when it comes to something-- like this kind of relates to what we're talking about earlier with just like lifestyle choices. If this is something religious, I personally would not worry about it. I would just engage in the religious tradition or whatever it may be and not sweat it. It's a very small amount of presumably bread. She's talking about I didn't know it was called a host. I've never heard it called that before.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's probably Catholic. That's what we call it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you do? Okay. I don't think we call it that, maybe we do. So, I wouldn't stress about it. Of course, if it was something where you're celiac and you couldn't have bread, that would be like a different thing. I do wonder with stuff like that on the rise, do if some churches adapt for that. Do they do gluten free?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am told that some Catholic churches offer gluten-free options, but I don't think it's the norm.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's my thoughts on it. I would not stress about it. It's a small amount. Hopefully, you don't get crazy blood sugar swings from it and you can just get back into your fasted state pretty quickly. You could take some Berberine, some AvalonX Berberine before? What are your thoughts, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I have actually not answered this question in this context before. I think that our relationship with our spiritual life and our religion is a very personal one. I am Catholic, was raised Roman Catholic, and when I go to Mass on a Sunday or a Saturday, I just don't let it be a stressor. With that being said, I think it's big picture. Like we need to focus on what's the big picture? You are standing in communion line, you are taking Holy Communion, you are putting the host into your mouth that basically disintegrates almost immediately and then you swallow it. I don't think that should be a deterrent. I don't think you should bring the host home because in the context of being in Mass, you're just accepted at that time. I think that whether it's 10:30 Mass, 11:00 Mass, it's once a week. I don't think it should be a source of stress.

And certainly, when I go to Mass, I only go twice a month, sometimes once a month. Coming off the pandemic, we really got out of the habit of doing it. It doesn't even register. It's just part of the ritual of being in Mass. To me, my faith and my relationship with God and the Holy Spirit is a personal one. Even though I've been dedicated gluten free for eleven years, having a host a few times or once or twice a month, it doesn't even register as being a concern and I don't think it should be for you either, Denise. That's my personal opinion.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, two thoughts to that. I'm glad you addressed the bringing it home. I would not bring it home because, like you said, Cynthia, that's the purpose and the point is engaging in that sacrament at that moment. I don't know that it's something you can do like a la carte afterwards at least not for the original purpose of it. Like you said, Cynthia, it's such a small amount. Going back to what we're talking about earlier like the big picture grand scheme of things, I don't like to talk in absolutes, but it's probably not going to make any difference on your overall health physically having that one small little piece once a week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I agree. Yeah. Don't sweat the small stuff as they say.

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. So alright. We will end with one last quick question, also a carryover from our AMAs. Courtney wants to know what is the one skincare product you can't live without.

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm obsessed with clean Chapstick, obsessed. It is the one thing throughout my day that I apply throughout the day that I'm very conscientious about. When I travel, I always have it accessible. It's this organic shea butter Chapstick product. I would say that is like my ride-or-die product. I could do without a lot of other things, but if I don't have that accessible to me, I buy them in mass quantities. I've got them in a drawer in my kitchen. I have one in my drawer in my study. I have one upstairs. I think I have two in my purse. Super moisturizing and just really nice. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. I never wear Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I have to, my lips have to be moisturized.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Beautycounter has these jellies, I love those. I wear those. But yeah, not Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's not a gloss, it's not lipstick. It's just super emollient and the stage of life I'm in, I love having really moisturized lips. Not so that they look glossy, but that's like my go-to.

Melanie Avalon: Got you, Chapstick.

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably makes me sound crazy, but I was like, "Oh, I know exactly what I would choose."

Melanie Avalon: It's so funny. I know she said one. I'm torn because there are two Beautycounter products that I use every single night and I'm obsessed with them, so I'm going to say both. I've seen such a change in my skin from using these and when I travel, I bring them and they're just amazing. It's the Overnight Resurfacing Peel, which it's not a peel, it sounds like a mass that you peel off. It's not. They call it that because the effects basically rival a chemical peel that you would get, but without the toxins and the craziness. So, it's just a serum. But It's amazing for brightening and antiaging and skin tightening. "Ah, I love it." I always wash my face and then I put that on and then I let it dry. I use their All Bright vitamin C Serum, which I love, love, love that also is just amazing for the antioxidants and the antiaging and the brightening effects on your skin.

I think something that's really important to keep in mind about skin is, well, A, I think our diet has such an effect on it. It's funny. I didn't start using skincare products for the longest time because I was like, "Oh, it's all just diet. It's all just what I put on the inside. I don't need to worry about the outside." And then I realized, "Oh, this actually does have a major effect because you can directly put these nutrients into your skin." So, that's important. Which is also why it's important to have clean skincare because you could also directly put toxins into your skin. So, yes, those two products, the Overnight Resurfacing Peel and the All Bright C Serum, I love those. By Beautycounter. It might change when this comes out. New customers can shop. We both have links for Beautycounter, so they can shop with either of us. New customers can use the coupon code. It changes, sometimes it's CLEANFORALL20, sometimes it's CLEANFORALL30. It's the words CLEANFORALL and then 20 or 30 ant that will get you either 20% or 30% off. So, try those codes.

So, okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Show notes for today's episode will be at @ifpodcast.com/episode309. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. You can also follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and then definitely tune in next week because it's going to be a super special episode with Scott Emmens. I think people are really starting to love Scott, so that will be with Cynthia and Scott about her Inositol, so definitely stay tuned for that.

Cynthia Thurlow: Awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Okie dokie. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Thank you so much for all the great feedback and tags on social media about the Creatine. People are loving it and I'm very, very grateful that everyone is enjoying it as much as I have.

Melanie Avalon: I wanted to tell you, Cynthia, while we're recording this episode that aired for me last Friday was with Kris Gethin. He's a bodybuilder with a massive social media following, but he's done an Ironman as well, which is really cool. He has a supplement line, but he in that episode talked all about Creatine and how much he loved it. It's always exciting to hear it come up. I feel like I keep hearing it more and more from people. I don't know if it's because it's more on my radar now or if I just am genuinely hearing it more and more. I think it's both.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, me too. In fact, now anytime I see it, people tag me in other people's posts, and I always agree with what they're saying. What I love is that it's not just men that are talking about now, it's also women.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think that might be one of the reasons as well that it's being talked about more and more is that it is on women's radar. Whereas before I feel like it was more just like the bodybuilding sphere, but now we're realizing the benefits beyond that. So, awesome. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 12

Episode 308: Photo Shoots, Post Exercise Meals, Birth Control, Vitamins & Supplements, Cycling With Seeds, Cayenne Pepper & Other Spices, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 308 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

3:50 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

15:30 - BLISSY: Get Blissy In Tons Of Colors, And Risk-Free For 60 Nights, At Blissy.Com/Ifpodcast, With The Code IFPODCAST For 30% Off!

18:20 - Listener Q&A: Priya - what is the best time to exercise when you are doing intermittent fasting?

22:30 - Listener Q&A: Melanie - Alternative forms of birth control pros and cons of each.

22:30 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - What do you think about copper IUDs?

22:30 - Listener Q&A: Terri - What is the effect of fasting on birth control?

31:20 - Listener Q&A: Alani - Would you please please please provide a list of the vitamins and supplements etc. that you take daily or weekly. Just curious.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #149 - Chris Masterjohn

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel

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Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

Go To melanievalon.com/sleepremedy And Use the code MELANIEAVALON for 10% Off!!

Check out Cynthia's line of supplements at cynthiathurlow.com

53:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

56:00 - Listener Q&A: Amy - Can you talk about seeds that help with hormones?

59:35 - Listener Q&A: Kara - Cayenne Pepper & Other Spices 

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 308 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes for free, yes completely free. The more I do research, the more health books I read, the more people I interview, something keeps coming up again and again, and that is the importance of electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, this includes the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you don't have your electrolytes in line, best case scenario, you're not going to perform at your best. Worst case scenario, you're going to feel pretty awful. When your electrolytes are out of balance, you can experience things like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness, and many other unpleasant symptoms. How do we lose electrolytes? Well, when you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. Athletes can lose up to 7 grams per day. Also, when people go on keto diets, that also often results in depleted electrolytes, and may be responsible for something called the, "keto flu." 

Also, if you're not feeling well while fasting, that could be a problem with electrolytes. Here's the other problem on top of the electrolyte problem. Most of the electrolyte mixes on the market are nothing, I would personally want to put in my body. Thankfully, I found LMNT. LMNT has none of the junk, no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS. It contains a science-packed electrolyte ratio 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium. LMNT is used by everyone from NBA, NFL, and NHL players to Olympic athletes to Navy SEALS to exercise enthusiasts to everyday moms and dads to people like me, and potentially you. The experience I've had of being electrolyte depleted and then having an LMNT packet was like the feeling of coming alive. Like, "Oh, the lights just turned on." It truly is incredible. 

Friends, I work with a lot of brands. LMNT is one of the brands where people randomly just tell me all the time how obsessed they are. LMNT offers no questions asked refunds, so you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give your money back, no questions asked. You have nothing to lose. Right now, LMNT is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single serving packets free with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Stay salty. 

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years. 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 308 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I'm good. I want to tell you about something fun that I did and I'm super curious your thoughts on this type of experience. I know you have a lot of professional photos, obviously. How do you feel about doing photoshoots? Do you enjoy them? Do you not like them? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, come on. I'm an introvert. What do you think? [laughs] 

Melanie Avalon: Not a fan? [chuckles] 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's a necessary evil, if you have to think about it that way, I have one plan for April and I think I finally found a really amazing photographer who gets my aesthetic that I want. And so, I'm very relaxed around her. I'm very comfortable, but no, I don't love it, not one bit. [laughs] Here's the thing, in the context of having a website and social media and all these things, it's just a necessary part of the business. But as an introvert, it is not my favorite thing I do. I spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out what to wear and what to do, [laughs] it's a lot of time. How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: Well, it's funny. So historically, acting is what I do, which is very much an on-camera thing. I was having a really long conversation with my friend about this last night, and he couldn't understand. So, I did a photoshoot yesterday and I've been needing to get a lot of photos, especially now that I'm doing more and more press-related stuff, I just need good photos for that. I think the hardest part you mentioned it briefly, but finding a photographer that you're really comfortable with, I think is half the battle. So, ended up shooting with this woman, actually, I can give her name. So, if you're in Atlanta, her name is Adrian Louise Photography and I haven't seen the photos yet. While taking the photos, I saw them small on the camera. But I think I'm going to be really happy with them. So, I'm really excited about that. I can do selfies because you see yourself, so I can pose. I can do acting because I'm not thinking about what I look like. With photoshoots, I find it so stressful because I'm not acting, I'm not doing a selfie so I can't see myself, and I can't make my selfie face when I can't see myself for some reason, I make a different face. The way around it, "Oh, my goodness." [chuckles] My trick around it is that if I have a mirror on the set, so if I can see myself in the mirror while they're taking the photos, I can do a lot better. Or if there's not a mirror, I hold my mirror in my hand so right before she takes the photos, I pose like my selfie pose and then I look at the camera and that works really well for me.

I'm just reflecting on how much this is like a first world problems thing. [chuckles] I used to feel really subconscious about doing that because I've been doing that for years and then people might be tuning out by now. [chuckles] Paris Hilton, who takes take a note of really legit, amazing photo shoots, I found a video of her talking and she's talking about how she does the same thing, that she has to have a mirror on the set because that's the only way she can pose. And then I felt so vindicated, I was like, okay, this is a completely normal habit. I could have my mirrors on the set and do my selfie pose and then take the photo. That is my suggestion to listeners if they need to do a photo shoot and they find that they can take photos of themselves, but they can't with a photographer. Just bring your phone and pretend you're taking a selfie and then look at the camera [laughs] and you're good to go. But I'm really really happy with how it turned out. We shot at a studio that was super cool. It was like all white and they had all these different sets like a fireplace and a bed and a kitchen. So, I think I got a lot of content and I think I'm just going to book more sessions with her for ongoing, but I was so stressed about it. I don't know if you get stressed leading up to them.

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't. I think because I've done this so much that I know I've got characteristic things that, we took my last set of photos in my neighborhood and in my house because I have a very clean design aesthetic and so it really was great backdrop for the photos and so were talking about options. She doesn't live in the state I'm in, but she's actually going to come in for the photos again, but I trust her implicitly. I think a lot of it's just feeling comfortable and for me, I'm not like a selfie person. I think a lot of it's the introverted side of myself. It's not a lack of confidence. It's just much like I wasn't doing IG live while I was on vacation, was that there has to be a separation, like some degree of privacy in my life. So, I accept that photos are part of the brand and the marketing and the business. I'm glad that you found someone you felt so comfortable with and you had a really good experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Speaking to the self-conscious piece, I am still very self-conscious about selfies, I think because they feel very egocentric. They're just like, look at me. Every time I take a selfie, I feel like I have this ego issue around it where I feel like it's very stuck up. So, I need to channel my sister. She's so good at it. She's like, "What does it matter? Nobody cares. Just do you?" Yeah. The whole photography world is really really interesting. So, I'm glad to have that behind me. Anything new with you? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I just found out I'm speaking at an event that I applied for in December. So A4M is one of the functional medical conferences. I was just invited to speak, which is super exciting, which means I'll be in Florida in May, talking about metabolic health which is really my focus, and my drive, and ways to improve upon that. I've been reading some really interesting research on individuals that are obese or overweight and are still insulin sensitive. I really pitched that concept because there's solid research talking about, what are the predictors for individuals that will then go on to develop fulminant hyperinsulinemia aka insulin resistance? What are the things that predict that insulin sensitivity will be lost? So, that's been really interesting and that's actually what I'm presenting about in Denver.

Melanie Avalon: That's a very cool topic.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's really interesting because I think even as a clinician, we make assumptions that if you're obese, then you must have lost insulin sensitivity and that's actually not the case in specific individuals. Some of its age related, but there are key metrics that we can use to measure, like whether it's looking at fatty infiltration in the liver or looking at skeletal muscle. I mean there's a lot of different metrics we can look at to determine whether or not someone is still insulin sensitive. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting, too. It's on the flipside, you can have the opposite like the Asian population that tends to be thinner. 

Cynthia Thurlow: The genotype. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, thinner, but they have the metabolic issues. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. My cousin that I was with in London, she's a physician. She's married to someone who is American, but is of Indian descent. And we were talking because she's familiar with this thrifty genotype. We were talking about how her views with her patients and talking to people just don't assume that someone who's thin is still insulin sensitive. Because Southeast Asians and Asians, they have an ability to become insulin resistant at a much leaner mass than Americans. And so they suspect that some of it is related to that thrifty genotype. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I find this all so fascinating. Awesome. Well, I wish you the best with all of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Thank you. 

Melanie Avalon: Super cool. 

Hi, friends. You guys know I am obsessed with sleep. Who knew that having a better pillowcase is a key factor in practicing self-care while you sleep? Well, actually, I've known this for a while. [chuckles] That's why I've been obsessed with silk pillowcases and why I was thrilled to find Blissy. So, sleep temperature is key to a good night's rest, and silk is what can help you accomplish that as well as being incredible for your hair and skin. Silk is breathable, moisture wicking and gentle, and its temperature regulating because it has natural insulating properties. Silk is also what is best for your hair and skin. It reduces frizz, tangles, and prevents breakages. That was actually the initial reason I first tried silk pillowcases years ago, like, maybe a decade ago. That's because it keeps the moisture in your hair and keeps your skin care products and natural moisture on your skin compared to cotton, for example, which literally absorbs it off of your face. 

If you'd like to say goodbye to wrinkles and dry, flaky red skin in the morning and sleep with a better temperature and wake up with healthier shinier hair, you need silk. But here's the thing, there are a lot of dupes out there that claim they are silk alternatives by being satin, but that is not the case. Satin is made from synthetic fibers like polyester, while silk is a luxurious all-natural fiber, no microplastics. Blissy makes pillowcases that are 100% mulberry silk, which is also naturally hypoallergenic, so you can sleep more comfortably without itching or rashes. And something really amazing about Blissy, they are the highest quality silk, and they are machine washable and durable. In the past, I've ordered silk pillowcases on Amazon and then the instructions literally said don't wash them. I was like, "Okay, that's really confusing. What do I do?" I have gifted so many Blissy pillowcases to so many people as well as their other products because, yes, they have a lot of other incredible things. 

I am obsessed with their robe. Please check that out. I promise you friends, Blissy silk pillowcases are the best ones on the market. They have a ton of different prints and colors, and they make great gifts because there's an option for literally anyone. Yes, men love them, too. They have over 1.5 million raving fans and you could be next. Try now risk free for 60 nights at blissy.com/ifpodcast and get an additional 30% off that's B-L-I-S-S-Y dotcom slash ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to get an additional 30% off. You'll wake up feeling better than ever. I'll put all this information in the show notes.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we jump into questions for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Okay. This is from Priya. "Dear IF podcast, I'm a lover of intermittent fasting and I've tried it several times throughout my life seeing the benefits. I was wondering what is the best time to exercise when you are doing intermittent fasting? I recently joined spin cycle in the morning and started having breakfast afterwards. I wish to fast until 12:00 PM as I normally do, but I don't know if it is unhealthy to not eat within one to two hours after exercising." Thank you so much for any advice and help, Priya.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, Priya. Well, thank you so much for your question. Actually, last week I was talking about how I recently interviewed Thomas DeLauer. I know he talks a lot about this and we talked about this in the interview as well and we've talked a lot about this on the show. But there are so many fears out there about exercise and eating and when you need to eat and do you need to eat before exercise to fuel it? Do you need to eat right after exercise to recover from it? Long story short about both of those questions and I realize you're asking about after, but I will talk about both. The long story short is that eating before to fuel when you're fat adapted not necessary typically, especially with things like more fat burning mode-type things, so lower steady state cardio and things like that. Even with weights and using your muscles, you can do those in a fasted state as well. On the flipside, with eating afterwards, no, you do not have to eat right after. 

That was one of the things that Thomas talks about in his book is that right after exercising, you've really got this upregulated fat burning that if you eat right afterwards, if that's your goal, you're kind of shutting that off rather than continuing to burn fat after the exercise. No, you don't have to eat right afterwards. That would be for the fat burning cardio type stuff, but then for the spin cycle which she's doing, for muscle building, you also actually don't have to eat right after. The anabolic window for protein for muscle recovery is actually 24 hours. The stimulus for the muscles that you activate from that exercise lasts for quite a while and you don't have to eat right afterwards. All that said, major caveat if you're a bodybuilder, if your thing is building muscle [chuckles] that's what you do, they do have more tailored regimens surrounding protein intake. So, if you have very specific goals, it might be a little bit different. But as for the everyday person, you don't need to eat right after. Your thoughts, Cynthia. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I would 100% agree and I've asked Gabrielle Lyon this several times about, is there this anabolic window, this magic window after exercise? I agree wholeheartedly it's what you consume in a 24-hour period of time. I think for anyone that's new to fasting, they may not exercise very effectively if they're not fat adapted in a fasted state. But I do find that it really depends for most women where they are in their menstrual cycle. They might be able to work out really intensely in their follicular phase and they may feel like when they head into their luteal phase, they just can't go two to three plus hours after exercising. So, I think part of it is just the awareness that you can exercise fasted if your fat adapted and then also understanding that you really want to fast for your menstrual cycle, especially as it pertains to exercise and when you should open up your feeding window.

Melanie Avalon: So glad you tend to that. Yes, that's something that you definitely know a ton about. Awesome. And then speaking of something you know a ton about, we have quite a few questions. I'm just going to read all of them. They all involve birth control, so we're going to have a birth control talk. First question is actually from Melanie, but not from me, a different Melanie. She wants to know the alternative forms of birth control. What are the pros and cons of each? Sarah wants to know, what do you think about copper IUDs? She says, I've had mine for seven years, but I want to get it removed. I've heard it can interfere with hormones, even though it doesn't contain hormones. Love to hear your thoughts. Terry says, we have heard a lot about PCOS, menopause, and perimenopause and fasting. What about those of us in their 30s and 40s who are still on birth control? Personally, I'm on Depo-Provera and 47, I've been in clean fasting for two years. What is the effect of fasting on birth control? Also, what can a woman expect as they enter perimenopause years but have no intention of going off of birth control? I don't want a perimenopause baby. I'm also happily married for the last seven years and we have both made the choice that children are not part of our lives. We have tons of nieces and nephews. Love the show and I've been a listener since starting IF two years ago. All right, birth control.

Cynthia Thurlow: This is the birth control trifecta. First and foremost, there is no shame in utilizing birth control whether you are peak fertile years or perimenopause, heading into menopause. I think the real thing is to identify like, what have been the birth control methods that I think women have had the easiest time tolerating without too much inconvenience. I would say, number one, the copper IUD seems to be really well tolerated. Obviously, it's not a forever item. It does have to be explanted and then a new one implanted. I would say in terms of ease of use, I'm not going to be a teetotaler here and say, "Okay, every woman needs to use condoms." I think that probably works for some people. Obviously, diaphragms and cervical caps, sponges, suppositories, there are some options that include they call it FAMs or Fertility Awareness Methods, and obviously Daysy is one of them. It's a tracker that tells you when you are most fertile. I have found that has been very helpful for a lot of people. If you don't have particularly regular cycles, I think a copper IUD nonhormonal is a nice option. But I think it really comes down to what interests you.

I know that there are a lot of women still in perimenopause that are using oral contraceptives, Depo-Provera is birth control that's implanted usually in the arm. I haven't seen a lot of Depo-Provera used in the last five, ten years, but that doesn't mean that it's not a reasonable option. But I think this really comes down to what stage of life you're in. What your partner is willing to do. Vasectomies are pretty straightforward and that's usually what I generally recommend. If people don't want to be on hormones, they don't want to be having hormones implanted. And so, I really think it comes down to life stage decision making and working in conjunction with your GYN or your midwife or whomever you see for, Well Women care to determine what works best for you. But there is absolutely, positively no shame if you decide that you want to use synthetic hormones or oral contraceptives that is certainly your choice and your option. I do like some of these other options that I identified and I think a copper IUD might be one of my favorite options. And ironically enough, Huberman Lab. I was listening to one of his recent podcasts with Dr. Sara Gottfried and ironically enough, she was saying that's one of her favorite forms of contraception to recommend to women who have not yet gone through menopause. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Does fasting specifically have any effect on any of it? 

Cynthia Thurlow: On fertility? Oh, absolutely. 

Melanie Avalon: No, on birth control, Terry wants to know what is the effect of fasting on birth control? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, there are a couple of different things that fasting can impact and it can absolutely impact fertility. So, if you're over fasting, it could diminish the likelihood that you are going to get pregnant. I remind women that even if you're choosing not to have children, if you're not eating enough food, if you're over fasting, overexercising, over restricting, you can send very powerful messages to your brain that can cause you to lose your menstrual cycle entirely. There are some pretty widespread effects of not having adequate estrogen levels in your body during peak bone and muscle mass building years. And so, I think that in the context of someone who's eating a healthy diet, even if they're fasting, they're not overexercising, they're taking care of themselves, fasting can be a nice strategy, but it's impossible for me to say in the context of Terry's situation what her fasting schedule may be doing to her particular menstrual cycle or her fertility. Because she's not my patient, so I think that's probably a conversation worth having with her GYN or her primary care provider. I would say that more often than not when I see women that are getting closer to menopause, she's 47, so kind of the towards the end stage, mid to end stage of perimenopause that there are things that you can look for. But obviously, if you're on oral contraceptives or you're on Depo-Provera, it would make those labs harder to interpret. 

Melanie Avalon: Got you, got you, got you. I learned a lot. All of my thoughts surrounding this question are not really helpful about the actual question. They're just my thoughts on issues relating or on things that happen related to birth control. Like, I was actually on birth control-- I was put on birth control in high school for acne-

Cynthia Thurlow: It's so common. 

Melanie Avalon: -and just looking back, I just don't know that that's the route I would have gone. I don't know that was the best thing for me. I don't think they make YAZ anymore. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. YAZ is probably gone. It's interesting because I was someone that probably had very mild PCOS, like, I never had regular cycles. But back in the 80s and 90s, everyone got put on oral contraceptives, so you missed the opportunity to really fully understand what they were doing. And now you have a whole generation of women who missed out on peak bone and muscle mass. I think that a lot of women mean if they had received fully informed consent, I wish I had because I've been osteopenic for intermittently throughout my adult lifetime. My functional medicine doc and I believe pretty fervently that a lot of it was many years of being on oral contraceptives. Where you're kept in a very low estrogen, low progesterone and you're receiving synthetic hormones kept in the state that really potentially could have exacerbated missing out on those opportunities to really build peak bone and muscle mass.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, just looking back at my experience and I know this is hard to understand now because I'm very thin now. But just if you look at my high school pictures from before being on the birth control and then going on the birth control, I rapidly gained a lot of weight and you can really see it. And just like it was doing something hormonally. I don't think I needed to be experiencing that, especially not for the purpose of acne, which I don't know, I just think it's an issue. Although like you said, there's probably much more awareness surrounding it now maybe with teenagers and acne. Do if that's still a thing?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it's still being used off label for that. I think the other piece is how many women come to me as clients that are on oral contraceptives in the latter stages of perimenopause and even into menopause who are terrified to stop. Because they've been on it for so long including my best friend from high school who is still on the pill. I keep telling her, I'm like, you are probably in menopause, [laughs] but I think that's for many people, they've just been on it forever and they don't know any differently. I was on it, gosh, until I was married, and then I went off, and then I just expected getting pregnant to be really easy. And I really think the pill masked what was always probably there that I had mild PCOS, like, I have thin phenotype PCOS and so it's a whole rabbit hole.

Melanie Avalon: Wow, wow.

Cynthia Thurlow: There you go, listeners. You got a whole bunch of TMI. 

Melanie Avalon: I thought that was very helpful, very educational. Thank you. All righty, so shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, and this is from Alani. This is one of the AMA questions. "Would you please, please, please provide a list of the vitamins and supplements that you take daily or weekly? Just curious."

Melanie Avalon: Okay, two hesitations about this question. [chuckles] One, I know this might come as a surprise. Actually, it might not because I say it a lot, but for those who have not heard me say it before, might come as a surprise because I have a supplement line. That said, I actually think in the dreamworld we would get the majority of our nutrients from food and we wouldn't even need supplements. Now I actually am going to go down a rabbit hole that I see myself going down. Are you familiar with Marion Nestle? She wrote a book called Food Politics, all about how the food industry affects mostly like, dietary guidelines, and consumer relations with food, and how we are sold all these processed foods and stuff. She's like a really big deal. She's one of those guests that I got connected to completely through a friend, like a friend was just, "You should interview her and I was like, okay." She's so cool. 

Like, Time Magazine named her a while ago because it was one, what's her name was had not fallen from grace, Elizabeth Holmes. It's when Elizabeth Holmes was on the rise. Time Magazine named her, Elizabeth Holmes, and two Nobel Prize people or something as having the most impact on something related to health and everything, which is very cool. So, the reason I'm talking about all this, she talks about-- This blew my mind because I'm reading her memoir, just came out, so that's why I'm interviewing her. I think she's like in her 80s maybe now. She talks about when she first had her epiphany about how the dietary recommendations were created for vitamins and stuff and it's shocking. She went and actually read the actual studies and when they went and decided these recommendations for every vitamin that hasn't changed, recommendations haven't really changed. 

They're based on the two examples she gave, was, I think, maybe B12--. What was it? It was one of the B vitamins and then I don't know one other vitamin. It was literally an insane asylum. A very small amount of patients and giving them the adequate amount, I think it might have been like niacin. giving them the adequate amount of this nutrient versus not and did it improve their behavior? Literally, [chuckles] it's the most awfully constructed inconclusive study ever. You have a very small amount of patients with mental health issues and you're going to evaluate, do they have more or less mental health issues if they're getting this more of this nutrient? That's a whole tangent. I've been learning a lot from her books. She's basically the reason that there is now, nutrition policy type-related studies and stuff in college. So, I've really been enjoying her books. That was a whole tangent. 

I think the point of it was that I've also interviewed Chris Masterjohn, and we talked a lot about the RDAs and stuff. And it's just very interesting vitamins, that's the point of all this. Vitamins are interesting in what is proposed to us as to what we need and is it too much, is it too little? Some vitamins depending on what type they are, can actually store up, so there's a potential for toxicity. Some vitamins and minerals, most people are probably deficient in, like magnesium. And then just the supplement industry in general, I think that's something else she talks about a ton is the regulations of the supplement industry versus the food industry and how that all works. The supplement industry in general is just very-- I just don't really trust it, which is the reason that I think both Cynthia and I started. At least I don't want to speak for you, Cynthia, but that's a main reason that I started mine is I just don't really trust anything on the market. So, I wanted to feel good about what I was putting in my body. That's my big disclaimer before answering this. 

The second disclaimer is that hands down, what I take is not a plan that everybody should take. We are so individual, so people have really got to find what they need and what works for them, and it's all unique. So, I give my examples and if Cynthia gives hers, please don't copy us verbatim, please. So, first of all, when it comes to vitamins, I would actually do testing for things like fat soluble vitamins to see where you're at with them. Especially something like vitamin D, I think a lot of people, if not most people are deficient, but that's something that you actually can test. For example, I went through a period where I was like, I'm going to get all the vitamin D and I found with using InsideTracker that I often get high with vitamin D because I kind of go overboard. But I do take some vitamin D, I used to take methylated B vitamins, I don't anymore. Nutrient wise though, magnesium, I think it's so important. I really think it's the one mineral that most people are deficient in. That's why I made my Magnesium 8, which is eight different forms of magnesium in their most potent form with no problematic fillers. That's the AvalonX Magnesium 8, so I take that.

I also take a lot of magnesium not for the vitamin potential, but for the bowel moving potential because I'll get constipation, so I find that taking magnesium citrate individually can really help. Also, there's this, it's called Mag O7, I really want to make my own version of it, so stay tuned. I plan to, but in the meantime, I take it because it's really good to help keep things moving along. I'm trying to think other vitamins like nutrient wise. In the past, I took some selenium, I don't anymore. I really like ENERGYbits, so Spirulina, Chlorella for their broad-spectrum minerals and vitamins. I also plan to make my own of that as well, so stay tuned. The supplements I really really take that I love, obviously, I'm obsessed with my serrapeptase. I've been taking that every single day for years and years and years. I'm just really happy because the version I've made is so much better than what I was taking. So, that's a proteolytic enzyme that breaks down problematic proteins and can help with inflammation and clear your sinuses and reduce cholesterol. It's even been shown to break down amyloid plaque.

When Gin was hosting the show, she took it to get rid of her fibroids. So, I love that. I take berberine every day. Oh, this is something I wanted to share. Okay, I'm glad we're talking about this. This is an update I had. I've been taking berberine for a while now and I've worn a lot of CGMs while taking berberine. Actually, started taking berberine one of the first times that I wore CGM because I wanted to see how it affected my blood sugar levels. I used to take Thorne, and so I was taking it and I did see an effect on my fasting blood sugar levels since switch. I'm so excited and happy about this because when I made my own version, I knew that it would be a high superiority, high potency, it wouldn't have problematic fillers, it's in a glass bottle. It's the berberine that I wanted to be taking. 

I wasn't sure if I would see any difference though on my actual blood sugar levels. So, I am honestly shocked. I wore CGM and it was the first time wearing it while taking my brand of berberine. So, AvalonX Berberine 500, my postprandial blood sugar levels are consistently down by 20 points, which is shocking to me. I mean it shouldn't be because [chuckles] that's what berberine can help with. It was really shocking for me to see that intense of a difference and it's very consistent. Historically, after I would eat my meal, because I eat a very high carb meal every night, like pounds of fruit. And so historically, my blood sugar would go from before eating it would usually be in the 70s or 80s, and then it would bump up to anywhere between the 120s, 130s, sometimes 140. Now, it rarely goes above 110, maybe up to 120, but the average is probably reduction of 20 points. So, I mean, I'm blown away by this. That's something I take every day and then I'm just running through my head, is there anything else? Oh, I take Atrantil still every day, that's amazing if you have digestive issues, it really really helps me. You can get it at lovemytummy.com/ifp, it was created by Dr. Ken Brown, who I had on my show way back in the day. Wow, that makes my show feel really old because I feel like it was forever ago that I interviewed him. But he made Atrantil, it's like a combination of different all natural herbal things, polyphenols that actually specifically attack the type of bacteria that's connected to SIBOs, the methane-producing bacteria. Actually, I don't think it's bacteria, I think it's archaebacteria, which are actually not bacteria, the Archaea, they're a different type of organism. 

In any case, it can really help with that especially if you have something like SIBO and it can help with motility issues, so I love that. There is something else that I'm forgetting. I'm going through in my head. Oh, of course, at night I also take NMN, as long as it's on the market to support NAD levels. And then I also do NAD injections once a week that I really like. Ever since interviewing Nayan Patel for his book The Glutathione Revolution, I've been taking his glutathione spray. I mean, he really [chuckles] convinced me about not only the benefits of glutathione, but also that liposomal glutathione is probably completely a waste of money, as is glutathione drips, as is glutathione pushes. It doesn't actually get into the cells. It is just like in and out with the bloodstream. I understand that he has a book and a supplement line, so it could be biased. I found his research and the interview very convincing. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. 

On top of that, I asked my friend, James Clement, who I really, really trust, who has a lab where he studies the blood work of centenarians, and he as well said that it's basically useless to do glutathione drips or glutathione pushes, so save your money, friends because those are expensive. I take the Auro Wellness Glutathione Spray. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/auro A-U-R-O and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON that will get you 5% off site wide. So, I take that every single night. It does smell like sulfur. I use it at night, not during the day for that reason. I think it's probably very beneficial for boosting glutathione levels. Then, of course, this is not vitamins, but it is a supplement. I really, really benefit from digestive enzymes and HCl for digestive support. It helps me so much and that is something else I plan to develop in the future. I might think of more things, but I think that's the main things. You can get my magnesium, my berberine and the serrapeptase all at avalonx.us. Coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. You can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318 and definitely get on the email list because I do a lot of sales and specials and all the things and that is at avalonx.us/emaillist. That was long. Cynthia, how about you?

Cynthia Thurlow: That was very comprehensive. Thank you for sharing that for brevity, because I'm sure that there are no listeners that want to hear the multiplicity of things I take. I think the most important thing to really emphasize is that it's nutrition first and then supplements. So, maybe it would be beneficial to share the things that I take at night. These are things that help support sleep. I would say first and foremost, progesterone, which is prescription, I have mine compounded. Progesterone is what is really a starting point for a lot of women navigating perimenopause when our ovaries are producing less. We get the byproduct of less circulating progesterone, impacts sleep quality, impacts anxiety and depression if you're prone to that. It also impacts our menstrual cycle so we get this relative estrogen dominance. For me, progesterone is critically important at night and I'm starting to see more clinicians that are not just using this the week prior to the menstrual cycle. Even in menopausal women, they're cycling it throughout the "month," but obviously a menopausal woman doesn't have a cycle, so progesterone is number one.

There's a product called Myo-inositol and I've been using this as a sleep piece. Myo-inositol also is beneficial for blood sugar but we know that it helps with induction of sleep, it helps stay asleep. Even Huberman Lab talks about how he uses this as part of his sleep stack. So, Myo-inositol powder prior to bedtime. You may see research on this with regard to insulin resistance, PCOS, but there's really solid research using it in otherwise metabolically healthy individuals as well. I think quite a bit about GABA and L-theanine. GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. I don't per se take GABA and L-theanine every day. Really just depends on what my stress levels are like. I take things like Seriphos which is phosphatidylserine. This is a special type of healthy fat that is beneficial for brain function, but also helps reduce cortisol. So, if you are having a super stressful week, I've done quite a bit of travel over the last week. You better believe I was taking Seriphos [chuckles] while I was on the airplane and also my first night home from London.

And then I think about adaptogenic herbs, things that can beneficial, I think about ashwagandha, I think about Rhodiola rosea, I think about Relora. I don't use all of them together. I create a cocktail based on my own needs each night depending on what has to be facilitated. But I would say those are pretty commonly in conjunction with melatonin. Now I'm menopausal, so after the age of 40 our bodies start making less and less melatonin. It is also a master antioxidant and it's not just a hormone. I've interviewed many physicians on the podcast that do recommend supplementation with melatonin after the age of 40. Again, if you have concerns about this, I would discuss this with your primary care provider, GYN, etc.

I also think about creatine. Creatine, it's one of the reasons why it was one of the first supplements that I created. Very helpful for maintaining muscle mass, but also helpful for brain support and cognition and sleep quality and so creatine is always a part of my daily sleep stack. No, I don't take it prior to bed, I take it during the day. But I think it's really important to just emphasize that every person listening, the sleep foundations are still really important, so getting sunlight exposure, sleeping in a cold dark room, wearing a sleep mask if you need it, getting off electronics, wearing blue blockers if you need to be on electronics, having some type of strategy for bedtime that's more important than taking supplements.

Now, I've mentioned my favorites and obviously for full transparency, creatine is a product that I created in conjunction with MD Logic, I fervently believe in. The feedback has been phenomenal and from my perspective it's important for people to understand that sourcing of supplements is very important. You don't want to just go to Amazon and order a bunch of things. You want to make sure that you are getting pharmaceutical grade supplements and that's where I think less is more. Meaning not everyone can afford to be on 40, 50 supplements every day, that's why the nutrition is important, the lifestyle piece is important, and then layering in things that you need.

Certainly, I think about hormones if they're needed. There's no shame in that. so progesterone definitely helps us sleep. I do fervently believe that estradiol, which is the predominant form of estrogen our body makes prior to going through perimenopause and menopause and also testosterone can be helpful, but always in the context of what your body needs and getting proper testing and working with clinicians that are able to interpret testing so that they can fine tune and bio-individualize your recommendations. I also take Athletic Greens or AG1 as its new name and it's really been a great way to get more comprehensive vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics into my diet and to not have to think about multiple supplements. So, it's something that I can use in my feeding window in a shake or even just added to filtered water makes it really easy. I can get my kids to take it too willingly because it tastes really good. That has been something I've incorporated into my supplement regimen over the last several years. I wanted to make sure I mentioned that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Just a quick comment about Athletic Greens because I historically have not taken Athletic Greens after hearing you talk about it and then I feel like Joe Rogan talks about it a lot, as does Rich Roll. I've been like, "Oh, maybe I should start taking it." If I do, I'll definitely report back because it seems to be a pretty cool way to get a broad spectrum of vitamins and minerals really easily. The reason I haven't is I'm like such a sensitive butterfly to things that it has a lot of things in it. I've been like, "Oh, what if I react to it?" I should probably at least try it and see how it goes. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I would do like at a time. For me, I can't do it every day because of the oxalates, but I do two to three days a week and I travel with them. Because I always feel like if I'm traveling, I'm probably not getting the variety of foods in my diet that I would if I were home. If I can get my kids to take it on occasion that says a lot because it actually tastes good without being sugary. I've probably tried every greens powder that's out there, most of them, it's like trying to eat grass. I'm like, "No, can't do this." 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think that's the other thing for me is I'm like I said severely allergic to grass, but I want to try it. Maybe I'll use our link. You can actually get, I think, unless their offer is changed when this airs, but you can actually get a free one-year supply of vitamin D. Oh, that's cool because I was saying that I take vitamin D. I actually have been taking their vitamin D because they sent it to me and five free travel packs with your first purchase. For that, you can go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. So definitely check that out. So, glad that you emphasize and that we're on the same page about the nutrition first, food first, lifestyle stuff first for the sleep things.

I actually as well use progesterone. I use a progesterone cream. When I was first prescribed it, I was taking it orally, but I've been doing a cream ever since, and I really benefit from that. I also have another sleep one I wanted to mention I really like Dr. Kirk Parsley's Sleep Remedy. He formulated it to have all of the ingredients that your brain naturally needs to fall asleep. He formulated it after being a doctor for the Navy SEALs and realizing that they all had these issues and the one common-- and by issues, I mean health issues as well as mental health. He realized that the common factor was that none of them were sleeping. That's why he developed sleep remedy. So, it's a proprietary blend, but it has four or five different things that naturally help your body fall asleep. So, if you go to melanieavalon.com/sleepremedy, the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you a discount on that.

Also, just as a teaser related to it, my magnesium threonate is coming. It's going to be the next supplement. Actually, by the time this airs, because this airs March 13, it might be out, which will be crazy. If its out, really quick education surrounding it. I didn't include magnesium threonate in the original Magnesium 8 blend because magnesium threonate is a special type of magnesium that specifically crosses the blood brain barrier, and it can have effects on relaxation and sleep and mood and memory. You need a high therapeutic dose to get those benefits. So, I couldn't realistically include it in the magnesium 8 blend. I could put it in there and say, "Oh, it has magnesium threonate, but you wouldn't actually be getting the benefits." Of course, I'm not going to do that. But then on top of that, some people might want to, for those benefits, like memory, mood, sleep, relaxation have a targeted specific magnesium for that. So, my magnesium threonate nightcap hopefully might be coming out around this time. Hopefully you're getting the email list updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. Yeah, all of that just, again, end with lifestyle and diet first. And how can listeners get your supplements, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Probably the best way is to be on the general email list. So, if you go to www.cynthiathurlow.com on the main page, you can opt in. Very likely by the time this comes out, we will have started to talk about my next supplement, which will be Myo-inositol or to make it less of a mouthful inositol. It'll be another powder. We're really excited about it. I've gotten tremendous feedback. People are really looking forward to the next supplement in our line. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. We will put links to all of that in the show notes.

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Melanie Avalon: I think we have time for one more question. This was also one of our AMA questions. It's from Amy. She wants to know, "Can you talk about seeds that help with hormones?" I know seed cycling is a whole thing. I know, Cynthia, you talk about it in your book Intermittent Fasting Transformation. Do you have thoughts on seeds?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. The one thing that I can tell you, these are ways that you can help support your body in multiple ways, but there's no hard and fast research. I can't tell you that there's been a randomized controlled trial on this. This is just observational and so the way that it works is the first 14 days of your cycle, from the day you start menstruating up until ovulation, you can use both flaxseeds and pumpkin seeds. These are supposed to be supportive for estrogen metabolism. And then days 15 through 28, again, we're looking at this as kind of a broad, this is a perfect menstrual cycle. You can use sunflower seeds and sesame seeds and one to two tablespoons is generally what I recommend of the seeds. Understanding that these are healthy fats, but they are also calorically dense, so don't go overboard. If you're someone that's trying to lose weight, I would probably lean towards one tablespoon each. Usually, fresh ground is what you want, you don't want to buy previously ground flaxseeds. Flaxseeds are actually very delicate and as an example, they need to be refrigerated. I typically recommend keep them in your refrigerator and then grind them as you need them.

Seed cycling is probably a good thing to utilize. I do go into greater depth about these processes in the book, but this is kind of a different way of looking at it now. Women will always say, if I don't get a regular menstrual cycle or I'm in perimenopause and my cycles are really long, I always say cycle with the moon. If there's a full moon use that as day one. And that's when you would use pumpkin and flaxseeds from day one through 14 and then day 15 through 28, which would be from 14 days after the full moon until the next full moon, you would consume sunflower seeds and sesame seeds. If you're again looking to lose weight, I would be conservative with portions and really limit it to one tablespoon each. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I'm really interested by it. But. I have not done any of it, so I cannot speak to it.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I remember even back when I was still cycling, I was never organized enough. I was well [laughs] if I remember great. These are great healthy fats. You can add them to salads. You could conceivably put them in a smoothie and grind them down, but don't let it be a source of stress. Ultimately, understanding what's going on physiologically with your body is certainly important. There's no food source that's going to replace your hormones. I think that's important for people to understand. Unfortunately, I think there's been misinformation out there saying, "Oh, if you eat this food, it's going to support, it's going to be all you need for progesterone." It doesn't really work that way. You can consume foods that are beneficial in certain times of your cycle absolutely, but there's no food that's going to replace that hormone. So, I think it's important just to say that. I'm very much an optimist. I'm very much a person that respects people's personal decision making. But I just want to be transparent and say there's no significant research in this area, but I don't think these things are going to be harmful and it's a good way to get in some healthy fats. 

Melanie Avalon: I love that. Well, I said that was our last one, but I think we have time for one more. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Next question is from Kara. Subject is cayenne pepper and other spices. Hi, girls. My question is, "Is a hint of cayenne pepper, ginger powder, or cinnamon sprinkled in water still considered clean fasting? Will it break my fast? I'm new to intermittent fasting and have noticed that spicy flavors like cayenne pepper and ginger sprinkled in hot water curbs my habitual hunger cues when first starting out on IF, plus they each serve several health benefits to the body. However, I don't want to lose the effects of the fast, specifically fat loss." Thank you, Kara. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Kara, thank you so much for your questions. I know people are going to have different opinions on this. Did she include cinnamon? She did include cinnamon because I know a lot of people are big fans of cinnamon while fasting for reducing blood sugar and things like that. I personally find, just from a theoretical perspective, these very flavor intense things. I would not have them while fasting. So, the pepper, the ginger, the cinnamon, I would include them with your meals. I did go on a really intense research tangent in the past. I was really curious about the effects on these compounds on weight loss. The research was very interesting. There actually is a lot of research on pepper and ginger and stuff increasing metabolism. What's interesting is people will often make the takeaway. They'll be like, "Oh, but it doesn't realistically make a change." Because it only leads to X amount of calories extra burned and what is that doing but I think there is something to the modulating power of if you're making your meals rich in ginger and pepper and spice, then they're becoming a more thermogenic meal in general. So, I don't know that we can just look at it as like, "Oh, you're going to burn X amount of calories extra if you eat ginger or pepper." I don't think it necessarily manifests that way. I think it might be a more holistic effect of having more, like I said, thermogenic-type meals. But as far as it goes with the fasting, I personally consider them breaking the fast. I know again, like I said, I know a lot of people really like cinnamon for lowering blood sugar. That's just my thoughts. 

That said [chuckles] to undo what I just said. I think if people find a fasting window that works for them and they have a diet and a lifestyle that's working for them and the food that's working for them, and maybe they're having these things during their fast and everything's just working. Like, who am I to say not to do that? You really have to find what works for you, even if that's not a "straight up," "clean fast," which I know might be of a controversial answer but Cynthia, what are your thoughts? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Kara, thank you for the great question. Based on my research and I do talk about this in the book, cinnamon in particular will improve insulin sensitivity, so I wouldn't worry about that. This is obviously Melanie and I will respectfully agree to disagree on this and based on the research that I have read; cayenne pepper and ginger can upregulate autophagy and so I wouldn't be fearful. The cayenne pepper that someone else has distilled and created a spice from. I think that one thing that I have learned is that when you're looking at research and you're considering things that can be very beneficial for, as you said, the hot water curbs your hunger cues and you're first starting out, more power too. If you're enjoying cayenne pepper and ginger because they can both be pretty spicy, I think that's certainly fine. From the context of wanting to help upregulate fat loss, I'm not per se sure that they're helping with that. 

Certainly, if you're struggling to fast longer and you're finding that the ginger and cayenne pepper is helpful for that, I think that's absolutely fine. In fact, when it pertains to cinnamon, this is usually something I will recommend as people are transitioning from a fatty coffee or if they're transitioning from milk in their coffee, to understand that cinnamon will help change the flavor profile, much like if you add high quality salt like Redmond's to the coffee, it will help adjust the bitterness profile. Don't be afraid of bitter. Bitter is actually beneficial. It means there're a lot of polyphenols, there're a lot of plant-based compounds that have a ton of health benefits. So, from my perspective, I wouldn't worry about cinnamon and I certainly think if you're transitioning to fasting and you're struggling a bit with longer fasts, I don't think the cayenne pepper or ginger should be things that you need to worry about. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. To that point, I will say I think the majority of people, maybe Gin and I aside, I've seen a lot what you just said. I know Thomas DeLauer talks about it. I know Ari Whitten talks a lot about it, you talk about it. So, I think it's all really great. That was very educational and I really want people to find what works for them. So, more power to people if they're doing that and it's working and they're getting all those benefits that you discussed. So, thank you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: You're welcome. Thanks for the great question.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own question for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode308. Those show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. Then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. Yes, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, keep the great questions coming. I'm really enjoying the variety that everyone is asking of us. It doesn't have to just be fasting related. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, I cannot agree more. Okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Mar 05

Episode 307: Mercury In Fish, Early Eating, Circadian Rhythm, Red Light Therapy, Microplastics, Fasting For Healing, Autophagy, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get free Chicken Nuggets for a Year and $20 off!

JOOVV: Like Intermittent Fasting, Red Light Therapy Can Benefit The Body On So Many Levels! It Literally Works On The Mitochondrial Level To Help Your Cells Generate More Energy! Red Light Can Help You Burn Fat (Including Targeted Fat Burning And Stubborn Fat!), Contour Your Body, Reduce Fine Lines And Wrinkles, Produce Collagen For Epic Skin, Support Muscle Recovery, Reduce Joint Pain And Inflammation, Combat Fatigue, Help You Sleep Better, Improve Mood, And So Much More!! These Devices Are Literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Free Chicken Nuggets For A Year And $20 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

SAFECATCH: Go to www.safecatch.com To Get 20% Off With Code MELANIEAVAON Through The End Of March!

20:25 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

22:30 - Listener Q&A: chris - Circadian rhythm

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

32:10 - Listener Q&A: Amy - AMA Question

38:40 - Listener Q&A: Chrissy - IF and Surgical Recovery

45:00 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast!

46:30 - Listener Q&A: Ann - Autophagy question

The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature

Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting

Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 307 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor- patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends, I'm about to tell you how you can get free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off. That's right. Free organic free-range, gluten-free chicken nuggets for a year plus $20 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable. I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. 

Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want. I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking this is the most delicious thing ever. People go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable and better for you and the planet all at home.

ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get free chicken nuggets for a year and $20 off your first box when you sign up today. That's a 22-ounce bag of gluten-free chicken nuggets in every order for a year plus $20 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out. So, when it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 307 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. Are you struggling with jet lag? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I actually felt great yesterday, but because my youngest was up multiple times last night with a GI bug, I think that's actually why I don't feel great this morning. I don't think it's as much jet lag as much as it's just interrupted sleep multiple times at night is never good for feeling as mentally sharp as you normally are. I can't even string my words together properly. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm grateful for this. I feel like the more and more interviews I do, I feel like more and more people are focusing on the importance of sleep. I feel like every interview I do, if the question comes up of, like, what is the most important thing, it's often sleep. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, absolutely. And it's funny, I got back from London on Sunday and the first thing I did was I ate a good-sized dinner and literally two hours later just did an early bedtime and I felt great on Monday. I got light exposure, I went to the gym. I think it's a combination of solo parenting and then my older son and I were both up dealing with my younger son not feeling so great last night. My kids are pretty independent as teenagers, but when they're making a lot of noise it's hard to ignore them. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I can imagine. I cannot be a parent. That's my thoughts on that. I have two really random things to talk about. One is, have you heard of a brand called Safe Catch? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you have? Nice. They reached out to me just randomly. They wanted to send me some samples. I'm so obsessed. I wanted to share them with listeners. So, for listeners, they are a brand that makes canned and those little packet-- I don't know what they're called. The packets that are flexible, like packets, I guess, bags of both tuna and salmon. And their main thing is that they extensively test for mercury levels, which I just think is so important because I'm really concerned about the levels of mercury in fish that we're eating, especially as a huge fish lover. It's great for the salmon, which salmon does tend to be lower in mercury anyways. But with tuna, I think it's like a really big problem because the levels in tuna can vary so wildly. So, this is a way for you to get your tuna and not worry about mercury. 

I'm looking at their website and they said that their Elite Wild Tuna is 10 times stricter levels than the FDA mercury limit. Their Wild Albacore Tuna is two and a half times stricter than the FDA mercury limit, and then their salmon is below the mercury limit as well. I'm not finding where they said how far below, but I will have to find some literature about it and put it in the show notes. But in any case, so I just wanted to share that with listeners as a nice resource. So, that is @safecatch.com and it's funny, they told me about this, like, back in October or November. I haven't shared it yet and so my coupon had expired, but I got them to reactivate it. That's why I have to share this now because it only goes through the end of March, but the code MELANIE AVALON will get you 20% off, which is amazing, so stock up. Again, this is something that you could really stock up on because it's cans and those little pouch things. The word is escaping me. Do you eat canned tuna or salmon?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a ton and I'll be completely transparent. I think after my high mercury levels, probably seven, eight years ago, the one thing that my functional medicine team and I have talked about is to eat less fish. And so, for me, I eat fish but very sparingly. I may only eat fish once or twice a month for full disclosure. But it's not that I don't like fish. I just don't want to expose myself to the amount of mercury that I was before. And even in our house, we do have some canned tuna if there's no other protein options, but it's never really my favorite.

If I'm going to have fish now, I'll usually pick the less predatory fish, that it's less of a concern. But I certainly, I mean, I love tuna. I'll be completely transparent, but I think it's allowed me to have more of a Wildatarian diet, to have a more variety of proteins and I think that's probably been beneficial for me. Our family, we definitely, during the pandemic, realized that we could lean into some Wildatarian meats and we found several that we really enjoyed, so more variety with land animals than water fish.

Melanie Avalon: I'm happy to hear you say that. I'm not happy that you went through the mercury experience, but I'm happy that you understand the issues with it. I really think it's a really big problem that most people are just not aware of. That's why I'm really excited about this brand, especially with so many people eating canned tuna and like I said tuna in particular because there's like, the list of fish that tend to be low mercury, which is-- so shellfish, tend to be the lowest. So that's like scallops and salmon. That's one of the reasons I eat so many scallops. And then after that, I mean, it's really like salmon. And actually, farm salmon tends to be lower than wild salmon, that I actually don't eat wild salmon for that reason. Tilapia tends to be low and then rainbow trout tends to be low, but beyond that, there really aren't. I get really nervous about fish, so I think this is a great resource for people. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's nice that there are companies that are becoming more savvy because there are marketing opportunities to connect with individuals that are going to go the extra mile. I know for us if we're going to buy fish, we usually will swing through Whole Foods or there's a fishmonger in the area that I live in, so we'll usually go through there. My husband's super picky and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that one of his hobbies is deep sea fishing. So, he's really picky, we have to buy the day off if we're going to eat it and therefore, we don't eat it often because it tends to be a little more high maintenance. And for me, I'm no longer in Washington DC, so things aren't as close. So, having to plan the extra amount of time in the car to go get fish, I'm like, I have to really really want it. 

And generally, that's become less and less common, especially because my kids, with the exception of shrimp, they really don't love shellfish or seafood, maybe other than lobster tails. For them, they're not big fish people. We've gotten to the point where we've made it so many times and they're picking at it, and then they're not finishing it, and then they're destroying the refrigerator after dinner because they're still looking for more food. And it's just made it so much easier. So, I tend to order it when I'm out if I know that I'm in a restaurant where I'm going to get high quality. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. Yeah, that's a whole tangent. If you go down the research rabbit hole about fish fraud, it is shocking, it's shocking. They've done tests and the amount of fish that's just not what it says it is at normal stores, like, at normal supermarkets, is shocking, like mislabeled. So, even then, you can't. You don't even know if you're getting what you're getting. I did just check and the Safe Catch fish is wild caught. So, that would be some wild caught salmon. Yeah, that was my tangent on fish. I had something else, but I can save it. I can save it for next time. Anything from you before we jump in? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, other than there are many reasons why London is one of my favorite cities and the food is definitely part of that. By far one of my favorite foodie cities. I think a lot of people don't realize the diversity in the food options that are there. My cousin, I jokingly told her that she needs to be my wife because everything, every restaurant she picked out, that we ate out for lunch and dinner was amazing. And we even had Russian food, we had Indian food. I mean, we had dim sum and we had everything you could imagine. And we did not have one less than stellar meal. It was pretty awesome. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I feel like that's something you don't normally hear about London or England.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, London shopping is, like, second. I mean, I tell people all the time there's nothing in the United States. It's as good as some places in Europe. And, well, technically, that's the UK. But yeah, I mean, it's next level. I just think it's a huge financial economy and it just reminds me of why I love being there on multiple levels. I love the architecture, I love the food, and I just love everything about London. It's a great city. 

Melanie Avalon: What was your favorite thing that you did tourist wise?

Cynthia Thurlow: Because I've been there so many times as has my cousin, for us it was more about just spending time together and so every day it was kind of a similar thing. We allowed ourselves to kind of sleep in, which is easy given the fact there's a five-hour time difference and our bodies thought it was the middle of the night and we were getting up. But I would say experiencing definitely the food, the cuisine, I would say being able to shop with another woman as opposed to shopping with my husband and kids where no one wants to go shopping. Let me be clear, I did not buy anything for myself while I was there. 

I was definitely kind of gaming the ideas of, “Okay, when I come back to Europe or when I go to Europe later in the year, I'm going to make some purchases, but trying to kind of price things out.” Because whether people know this or not, sometimes the exchange rate works in your favor and it makes sense to purchase some things and sometimes it does not. And so, it didn't make sense to buy things there. I can wait till I'm in Portugal in April.

So, I would say the favorite things we did was just connecting and just exercising and just being outside. It was 50 degrees. It was super warm for that time of year. All the sightseeing we've done, all the big sites before. Westminster Abbey is probably one of my favorite things to do in London. Just having the opportunity to know that we didn't have to rush from one historical place to another because we've been there enough. I have a favorite hotel that I stay in and actually ironically enough her and her family prefer staying there. And so, it's a great part of the city where you can just walk around and everyone's very nice.

And then, ironically, I was watching a movie on the way home and it was set in the same hotel we stayed in. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, that's total validation that we stayed in the right place.” 

Melanie Avalon: What movie? 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's called Burnt, has Bradley Cooper in it. 

Melanie Avalon: Is he a chef? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. Okay. Yeah, I saw that, but it's set in the same hotel we're in. I didn't even realize that until I started watching. I was like, “Oh, my God, that's our hotel.” [laughs] I was like, “What a coincidence.” But it was wonderful. It's just nice. I mean, for anyone that's listening that has kids and people you're responsible for, it's just nice to have, like, four days where you just do what you want to do and just enjoy the company of someone that you love. And my cousin is like the sister I never had, so we can talk about all the things and enjoy each other's company. And the irony is, we brought some of the same clothes. We didn't even realize that we have similar taste, which we knew. But as she was pulling stuff out and hanging in the closet, I was like, “Oh, my God, I have that same sweater with me. Oh, my gosh, I have that same jacket.” I'm not even realizing it. Just togetherness and time away from the family was a lot of fun. 

Melanie Avalon: Nice. One of the books I'm reading right now is called The Fun Habit. I'm really excited to interview the author, but he talks all about this, the importance of having fun [chuckles] for the actual life and health benefits, how we disregard it as something that adults don't do or isn't important. But he makes the case it's just as important as so many other things in life. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. And I think a lot of people travel. There are vacations like this and then there are vacations where you're only in a place for a certain amount of time. You've never been there, you want to see this attraction and that attraction and eat this place and not eat that place. For us, it was like we saw a play, we went out for a fabulous dinner, we had an amazing lunch. I mean Book of Mormon. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the musical?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I've never seen that before and it was quite funny. So, if listeners are not familiar with that, it was created by the same people that did South Park, which explains the humor in the movie. And I didn't actually realize that until right before we’re leaving and my 15-year-old shared that with me and I actually was like, thank you for sharing that with me because the whole time I was like, “Oh my God, this is like a South Park episode," little outrageous. 

Melanie Avalon: I listened to it when it came out, so I was young and it kind of scandalized me. I thought was very-- It's like "Oh."

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's a little raunchy. My kids were like, “Well, what does that word mean?” And I was like, “Well, a little, if I were of that religion, I would be definitely offended, but I'm not Mormon.” But it was entertaining, and I love going to theater, and it was just nice to be in the London theater district and enjoy a really nice dinner and just all that togetherness. And I agree with you, I think a lot of times people feel like they have to plan out every single minute of a vacation. I'm a huge advocate of some things being planned and then other things not being planned.

Melanie Avalon: Yes. 

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So, to start things off, we have a question from Chris and the subject is circadian rhythm and Chris says, “Hi, I'm listening to you and Cynthia in your latest podcast. It's always refreshing to listen to you both answer a reader's question. I just finished reading the Circadian Code by Dr. Satchin Panda. I was thinking I came onto it via one of your earlier podcasts. Anyway, I'm hoping that you and Cynthia have either read or will read this book. I feel like he really advocates for everybody to eat early in the day. And I know you say you like to eat later. My mom is like this. She works best at night, she's 86 and still cooks everything three times a day for her and my father, he has Alzheimer's. I keep wanting to tell her to stop eating at a certain time, but I know we're probably all different with cortisol. The point I want to make is I'd love to hear you do a podcast about their circadian code ideology. Maybe you have and I just haven't come across it yet. He makes a strong case for everyone to time their meals early in the day. I've been doing it for a week now and I noticed my hunger levels have definitely dropped off like you said they would. I was rather surprised. I have been intermittent fasting for five years now and I stalled out on weight loss, especially because of COVID. But since I have been following his ideology of having breakfast as the main meal and my last meal at seven or eight hours later, I've had way more energy on way less food. I don't snack between my two meals and I've been realizing how much better this works for me. I'm used to waiting until 12 or 1 to have my first meal.

Now I make sure I have a high protein breakfast with salmon and eggs or whatever meat I have around, and I always like to do a protein shake then, but I up my protein since I work out. I've noticed I don't need to worry as much as I have more energy. I'm still doing protein shakes now and then, but not like I was. I'm also noticing that I am intuitively eating more now. And I also noticed that when I finally have a piece of fruit like the typical blueberries or kiwi, it tastes like candy. It seems like my eating is way more intuitive now. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Keep up the good work with Cynthia. You guys are awesome.” 

He or she because Chris could be either way also says “Since reading his book, I am now more focused on time-restricted eating with a window of seven to eight hours. I love cutting my eating time off at 05:00 PM. And he also advocates making the same meal times, but sometimes that just doesn't work. So, I try to focus on my eating window and my non-snacking in between my two meals. I just can't believe how eating this big breakfast first thing when I get up in the morning has given me way more energy and then my second meal is way lighter what I eat because I'm just not as hungry. Again, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and Cynthia's thoughts.”

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chris, thank you for your question. I am very familiar with this book. In fact, I'm sitting at my desk in my office and I can see it. Literally it's across from my vision. I'm a huge fan of eating aligned with our chronobiology, and for most people, obviously there are exceptions, most people actually do better with insulin sensitivity earlier in the day. I would imagine if you have parents that are in their 80s that you are at a minimum middle aged. And so, I do encourage individuals that are middle aged to really lean into eating when we are most insulin sensitive and the average middle-aged person is losing insulin sensitivity as they are aging. I'm not at all surprised that you feel great really having a larger breakfast and then eating a second meal seven to eight hours later. I think you're really harnessing the power of your circadian rhythms and circadian biology.

This is actually something that, from my perspective, I may not eat eight hours after my first meal, but I'm definitely closing my feeding window before dark and that really works well for me. Ironically enough, my cousin who was with me who's also a middle-aged person, we were laughing about the fact that we stopped eating by 5 or 6 o'clock at night. That has worked really well for us. I just want to encourage you to continue to leaning into things that make you feel good and as it pertains to your parents, the adage of the old, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. That applies in many ways, I think for some people it becomes very much a social opportunity for them if they're eating three times a day and sitting down with their loved ones. 

I think sometimes it's been my experience and most of my elderly patients and clients really aren't eating a lot of food. She may not be eating large boluses of food, but may just enjoy the social aspects. But if she's not open or receptive to eating less frequently, I think you just have to respect what works for them at this time in their lives. I do know that when my grandmother was getting older, she got to a point where she said that she just ate two small meals a day. That's really all she was hungry for. So much of this is really honoring our own biology and physiology and bio individuality. What do you think, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with all of that, obviously. So, you've read the book. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

Melanie Avalon: I'm actually really surprised that I haven't read this book. I've listened to a lot of interviews that he's done. Have you had him on your show? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not, I have not. It's funny, I think because he's really like a true researcher. I always feel like the researchers are the ones that are sometimes harder to get on podcasts. I think about Lisa Mosconi is a good example of that. I keep saying eventually I'm going to have her on the podcast. She wrote XX Brain in case listeners are not familiar with her. But yeah, I actually was talking about some of his most recent research in two medical conferences I spoke at last week. That was really validating, eating less frequently and so I'm definitely pretty aligned with a lot of his methodology and research. Obviously, bio individuality really plays in a lot here. I think if you're a younger individual and you have more insulin sensitivity, you can probably eat later into the day. But I find that most of my female patients and clients don't do well if they have a large bolus of food and then try to go to bed two hours later. 

Melanie Avalon: I really want to try to reach out to him. I really like his research as well. And I agree with everything that you said. Again, I've talked about this at length before. I wish I was an earlier eating person. I wish that worked for me, I really, really do. It just doesn't for me personally. I do think there is an aspect of individuality. So, I do think some people naturally do better eating earlier and some people naturally do better eating later. When I say later, I don't mean necessarily what I do, which is really late. I've talked about this a lot as well. I wrote a long blog post about this. If you go to melanieavalon.com/eatingtiming, I tried to really look at all the studies and see what the takeaway was for me about when it seemed like objectively people should be eating and it did seem to be eating during--

For me, this was just my perspective. It did seem to be eating during daytime hours and my takeaway was probably more later afternoon to early evening just based on pure hormonal release of insulin, ghrelin, leptin. That's what I was mostly looking at. So, like hormones related to eating and hunger, when were they naturally ebbing and flowing just based on the time. What I think is really amazing about this Chris is that it sounds like you were doing something different. And I think it's super awesome that you were open to trying this and that it did work for you. That's super amazing. It seems like it was the thing that you were talking about being on a weight stall, and this was something that helped you push through a plateau that you were on. It sounds like you're assimilating food better probably since you're feeling the need for less protein even. Not to say that we should focus on less protein, but it sounds like you eating this way is probably helping you better assimilate and utilize the food.

I do encourage people to find the rhythm that works for them. For a lot of people, it possibly is earlier. If people find a rhythm that really does work for them and it is later and they're happy and it's working in their life and they're sleeping and they're working and it's working with their weight and their health. I also don't want people to completely over freak out and think they have to be eating earlier as well. But yes, so, to do list, to read that book and reach out to him. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's a good book and it's not very thick. Right now, I'm trying to get through Ari Whitten's book, Eat for Energy and then I have to get through Dave Asprey's because I'm interviewing both of them next week. I'm like, “All right.” It's Super Bowl weekend this weekend, and I think I will be by myself because my husband's going on a snowboarding trip with his buddies, and I think my teenagers are both going to friends' houses. This is going to be a first. I'm reframing this, Melanie, as the universe is giving me an opportunity to do more prep for the week. I'm like, “Okay, I'm not going to look at this negatively. This is all a positive. My kids are in a good place. My husband's going away with his friends. I just got back from a trip. This is all good.” 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Does Dave have a new book coming out or is this for his other book? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, yeah, he has a new book. I think he's on the every other year plan, which is pretty prolific when you think about it. I'm still mulling additional book ideas run in my head, but yeah, he's like a workhorse. [laughs] He manages to do that because as you know the book writing process is not like instantaneous. It takes time and I think he must be working on the next book, when the next book comes out it's amazing.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. That's really exciting. I really liked Ari's book as well. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, good to know. It's literally sitting underneath my phone to remind me that that's the next thing to work on. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, he was great too. So, well, very exciting. Shall we go on to our next question, which is a lingering question from our AMAs. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. This is from Amy. Amy says, “Can you use the Joovv for 10 minutes all over your body or only 10 minutes a day on a part of your body?” This is a very good question for Melanie. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I did specifically put this in today's episode because we are sponsored in part today by Joovv, so I thought we might as well answer a question related to it. So, for people who are not familiar, Joovv makes red and near infrared light therapy devices. I've been using mine for years. I really don't know what I would do without it. So, a few different things. One, it's funny because they sort of made a mode for this when they released the newer version, but I've been doing this from the beginning, which is I actually use it for ambient light. I have it on pretty much 24/7, but not super close. Well, when I'm at my desk, it is little bit close to me, but I just find that the red light really helps counteract a lot of the blue light that we're exposed to. It's wonderful waking up in the morning and then in the evening I use it to light my whole apartment at night. 

So, speaking of circadian rhythm and sleep, I find it so helpful for that. But the main reason people are using it is for targeted treatment. It helps with inflammation, muscle soreness, skin, so many things. Her question is basically, can you use it for 10 minutes all over your body or only a part of your body? You can do your whole body in a day. So, the answer would be you could do 10 minutes all over your body and if you have one of the larger units, like the Solo, then you could do more of a full body treatment at once. I do have the Solo, but then I have the Mini, which would be more like your face or a smaller area. They have the Go, which is like very small areas that's handheld. I take that while traveling, which is awesome, but it's really a good investment, especially if you're going, like I go to Restore Hyper Wellness. That's where I do my cryotherapy.

I have a daily membership there which, by the way, I really recommend Restore. They're getting bigger and bigger, so they're in a lot of cities and they have cryotherapy, they have sauna, and they have red light. That would be a good way to try red light to see if you like it. They have compression suits for your legs. And I think the daily membership, if you're going every day, is definitely worth it. But what I was going to say is, time wise, it's just so much more cost effective and time effective for me to have the devices at home. It really does pay for itself. I'm just thinking about that phrase, "It really does pay for itself." Like, is that actually a true statement ever if you pay for something, [chuckles] can it actually ever pay for itself? I don't know. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think it depends on what it is. I sometimes and this drives my husband crazy. So, this is like triggering when I'll say, “Oh, cost per wear.” Like, if I buy a pair of jeans or a nice handbag or a nice pair of shoes, I'm like but if I'm going to wear this every day or three or four times a week and I'm going to wear it for years, then the cost per wear makes sense versus something you wear once and it sits in your closet. So, I think it's the same thing, as an example, I use my PEMF mat every single day and love it. But if I bought something like that and only used it occasionally, then it might not make sense. So, I think it really depends on the individual. Like, I love, we have Restore Hyper Wellness too, and I think they do a fantastic job. 

I use them for IVs in particular around travel because the hydration, you just can't stay hydrated enough when you're traveling, I don't care how much water and electrolytes you consume. But, Melanie, this is a great question for Melanie, because I don't have a Joovv device, but I keep saying I'm going to buy one, so maybe this now the impetus to go buy one. 

Melanie Avalon: You should definitely get, like I literally can't understand my life without it. I mean, I can, but so the red light in the morning and the evening is a game changer for me. And then the light is so therapeutic. Like, when I'm sitting at my desk, it just feels good, like it just feels good. And then with a targeted treatment, I find it very, very effective with muscle pain and things like that. So, yeah, big fan. And I will agree with the cost per wear thing.

I interviewed Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, all about microplastics and he talks all about the role of plastics in our clothing, which blew my mind. I didn't realize that most clothing is largely plastic. I didn't realize just how pervasive plastic is. I think I had way too much of-- it was in a box in my head that only stuff that was obviously plastic was plastic. I didn't realize that basically everything has plastic. I mean most things have plastic. And so, clothing actually sheds a ton of plastic. And so, you can tell your husband this. He makes the case that one of the best things we can do for clothing is to buy really high-quality outfits and wear them a lot. They stop shedding plastic. So, the more you wear them, the less plastic you're shedding. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting. My cousin was saying that she wants to have a capsule wardrobe and so I was reminding her that one thing I've made a very deliberate effort in the past 6 to 12 months is to be ruthless about not buying things I don't need. So, as an example, I'm a sweater wearer, I love sweaters, I love to be warm in the winter and I literally have bought no sweaters this year. So, it's like I'm definitely curtailing what I'm wearing. The thing I was most surprised about was that a lot of athletic wear, like, Athleta as an example, I don't have a lot of Athleta in my wardrobe, but a lot of those athletic companies, most of what you're wearing is plastics, which is disturbing because you're thinking about, you're sweating in athletic wear, those sports bras and other things. I was like, “Oh, that's a bummer.” 

Melanie Avalon: It's really, really, crazy, the percentage of and it's even like normal clothes that you wouldn't think are plastic. It made me feel a lot better because I really do wear almost the same thing every day. So, I was like, well, doing something good for the environment. So, that whole tangent, but yeah, to answer the question, Amy, you can use it all over your body and you can listen to the ad in today's show about Joovv. But we do have a coupon. It gives you a discount if you go to joovv.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. So yeah, okie dokie. Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: So, we have a question from Chrissy. The subject is IF and surgical recovery. And Chrissy says, Hi ladies, I've listened to every show and I finally have a question. I've been practicing IF with a Whole Foods diet for one year now. I've seen so many improvements including elimination of daily headaches, insomnia, joint pain, and even anxiety. The most surprising improvement was my asthma. Before IF, I took eight inhalations of steroids daily along with frequent use of my rescue inhaler and nebulizer. This year I only needed one daily puff of steroid during peak allergy season in July and August and I never need rescue meds anymore. I made this change to lose weight and was shocked with all the improvements. I've sustained a 35-pound weight loss for the first time ever and I'm thrilled to be back in size 4 pants at 44 years of age. 

Now, for my question, "I've been experiencing a lot of pelvic pain over the last six months and ultrasound shows fibroids and a potentially suspicious uterine growth. I'll have a DNC.” What is a DNC?

Cynthia Thurlow: Dilation and curettage. Usually, they go in and they scrape the inside of the uterus, take a biopsy. It's a very routine procedure, but still scary because you're having a minor medical procedure.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Is that similar to a I cannot say the word, a col-- 

Cynthia Thurlow: Colposcopy, that's different. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's different, okay. “So, I'll have a DNC with biopsy next month and if it's at all worrisome, I will likely opt for a hysterectomy. With all of the improvements I've seen, I truly believe diet can heal. What is the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help myself heal quickly if I do need the surgery? I used ADF to lose the weight and one or two meals a day to maintain depending on my hunger cues. Thank you and much love.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Chrissy, thank you so much for sharing all of the success you've had. And really, this is a great example of the reduction in inflammation that you experienced with fasting versus the eat to stoke your metabolism, eat multiple snacks and many meals a day. I'm sorry to hear that you've been experiencing some pelvic pain and hopefully this will turn out to be no issues. Just have your DNC and a biopsy that will end up being benign. I would say that from my perspective, the best way to use nutrition and fasting to help heal from surgery is first and foremost an anti-inflammatory diet. So, really removing the most inflammatory foods, which are gluten grains, dairy, sugar, alcohol at least for the short term, something that's a Whole30 evoking process and a Whole30 for anyone that's listening is really not designed to be done in perpetuity. It really is just a 30-day anti-inflammatory diet. 

It makes it easy because unlike years ago when I used to recommend it to patients, there are now Whole30-approved barbecue sauce and other things that just make your life so much easier. So, it's really just eating protein, healthy vegetables, fruit, and then just cutting out the most inflammatory foods. The other thing is, I'm not a huge fan of over fasting, especially because it sounds, like now you're at a happy place in terms of your weight. So, I would say if you're doing fasting, I would still try to get in two meals a day so that you're hitting your protein macros. Protein is certainly going to be important in a postoperative period, even in a minor surgery. Hopefully you won't need a hysterectomy. From my perspective, it sounds like you really laid the foundation to be able to heal. And I would say the additional things that I would consider doing is removing additional inflammatory foods if they're even still part of your diet and then also considering making sure you're getting your protein needs met on a daily basis. And so, I would say at least 40 to 50 g of protein in a meal, so close to 100 grams of protein a day would be a good starting point. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: I think we've talked about this on the show before. I had gone and looked at all the studies that I could find on fasting and surgery and there were some pretty interesting ones about the benefits of fasting, more so leading up to surgery and then affecting, it was more stuff like post operative nausea and stuff like that it was looking at. I agree with what you were saying about, it sounds like she's at a good place right now with her fasting and so, I wouldn't overdo the fasting just because of the surgery and everything. You definitely-- I mean Cynthia, hit on all the points. Like you want to make sure with surgery that you have adequate nutrition for your body to recover and heal and the anti-inflammatory aspect of that is so, so important. I would immediately, surrounding the surgery, make sure you're getting the meals to recover and making sure that they are the anti-inflammatory meals and just doing what's been working, not going overly crazy.

So, separate from probably not surrounding the surgery because there are contraindications with surgery. But when you're beyond all of this, I was just thinking while reading this, if you do still have allergy issues and you've had things like fibroids, so serrapeptase that I take, that is amazing for allergies that personally for me makes allergy season-- For me it's not summer, it's spring. I just react to all the grass, just wipes me out and I don't have any issues when I take serrapeptase. So, that might be something that you want to try Chrissy, so that's my, again, not immediately surrounding the surgery, because I think there're often contraindications for that. But when you are on the other side of it, so you can get that @avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIE AVALON will get you 10% off or you can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. So that's AVALONX to 877-861-8318. But either way, wishing you the best with your surgery. Normally we have a date. I'm not sure when this came in, but I am sure it will all go wonderfully. And it's really great that you are super aware of the role of diet in all this because so many people just are not. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next podcast sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially gave it a try because I wanted to simplify my supplement regimen, and quite frankly, I probably have tried every product on the market. And AG1’s taste is amazing. I take it typically in the morning, after working out, and when I'm getting ready to break my fast. Very quickly, I noticed that it helped me with improved digestion, made my hair and skin look even better, and helped support my sleep. I do consider it to be one of my absolutely essential supplements I take most days of the week. 

With just one scoop I get the nutrients and gut health support that helps my whole body thrive and cover my nutritional bases. As I mentioned, it's really important to me that I keep my regimen as simple as possible. An AG1 is one of those supplements that really helps me thrive. It's also a Climate Neutral Certified company. That means they are a fully carbon neutral business. They've also designed a carbon reduction plan designed to reduce overall environmental impact, which is really important to me. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase, go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. That's athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast and check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. This is from Anne and this is an autophagy question. “Hi, I've read that autophagy doesn't begin until one reaches a 24 to 48-hour fast. I cannot go that long. I've been doing 19:5 or 20:4 meaning fasting for 19 to 20 hours with a four or five-hour feeding window. I wanted to know if you believe that we reach autophagy in those fasting hours. Thank you," Anne. 

Melanie Avalon: All right, Anne, thank you so much for your question. I might reserve the right to have a part one and then I'm going to do some more research for a part two because honestly, when I sat down to research this, I was like, “Oh, I'll find some information pretty quickly. Not so much. So, this was something I'd been wanting to look into especially because Peter Attia talks about this a lot and he's the last that I heard. He thinks that you don't really get any measurable bump in autophagy with just general everyday fasting. I found one pretty good review, but it was from 2018 and it's called The effect of fasting or calorie restriction on autophagy induction: A review of the literature. That was a review up until 2018. Just a little fun fact really quickly. That one I could only find the abstract. 

If that happens to you, search for the name of the title-- Well, A, if that happens to you, ResearchGate often has the full studies. I love that website. If they don't have it, which they didn't, if you search for the title and then add PDF to it, you can sometimes find, well, A, the actual study or B, the submitted manuscript. So that's what I found. That's how I was able to read the whole thing. But in any case, what was really interesting about that review, and again this was 2018, so about five years ago, it went deep into autophagy. 

There're actually three main types of autophagy. For example, there's macroautophagy, microautophagy, and chaperone-mediated autophagy and basically what they have to do is just how that process actually happens, but macroautophagy is the one we most often think of and it was nice to read it because I feel like I've been talking too casually about autophagy. Like whenever I talk about it, I'm like, “Oh yeah, it's like a cellular renewal process, it breaks down old proteins,” and I kind of stop there. But reading this through made me realize again just how important this process is. So, it helps with so many health-related issues. It's necessary for cellular function.

The reason I think it's important to draw attention to that is I think people sometimes think that we only get this autophagy process when we're fasting, which is not the case. It's literally happening 24/7, literally on some level. I mean if you think about it, when cells create, they get broken and they have waste products and our body has to get rid of that. Now, the level to which you get rid of it and the level to which you get proper autophagy levels might affect how good you are at that process and how much recovery you get from that. So, it's nice to do things that can support autophagy, but it is happening all the time. So that's a little myth to dispel. 

What's really interesting is a lot of cellular states can create it. That includes calorie restriction and fasting which are two ways that can potentially potently activate it, that also have health benefits beyond that compared to things like, so even like infection can create it, oxidative stress can encourage it. So, I found that really, really interesting. But in any case, one of the main benefits for autophagy is the effects on neurodegenerative diseases because it can help with that protein build up that can affect our neurons and create neurodegenerative issues.

Here's the thing that study with the review, the majority of the studies I was looking at and there were a lot, but they were all in rodents and I honestly don't know how that correlates to humans for autophagy just because of how the circadian rhythm of a rodent compares to a human. I don't know if we see the same activation, especially since a 24-hour fast in a rodent is like a huge fast in a human. So, the studies in autophagy in humans are actually pretty hard to find.

The majority of the ones I could find were in muscle autophagy in humans and one of the main ones I was looking at was called Training state and skeletal muscle autophagy in response to 36 h of fasting. It did look at fasting up to 36 hours. So, 2 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and what was interesting is it actually depended on whether or not the person was trained or not. It had different responses. So, on top of just you as a person fasting whether or not you're trained might affect your autophagy response. But one of the main things that encourages autophagy is the activation of AMPK and the downregulation of mTOR. 

So, mTOR is activated by food and nutrition and protein. It's a growth stimulus. And then the AMPK pathway is activated from fasting and calorie restriction and it activates longevity pathways and so it helps activate autophagy. So, even if there's not a lot of studies on autophagy, there are a lot of studies on AMPK activation, which does seem to happen while fasting and a dose response curve.

So, I also found a newer study, a journal article called Physiological responses to acute fasting: implications for intermittent fasting programs. And I'm really sad because I could not find the full article. All I could do was the abstract and this was a November 2021 study. But something important to note was that the end of it says that a single fast demonstrated the ability to alter glucose, so that's blood sugar and lipid, that's fat metabolism within the initial 24 hours. But variations in protein metabolism appear to be minimal within this time frame and then here comes the key. The ability of an acute fast to elicit significant increases in autophagy is still unknown. That was really what I walked away with. Going back to that earlier review I talked about, I found it so interesting and actually a little bit frustrating because it was a very very deep dive, like a very deep dive. It's very long. 

It goes into autophagy for all the different individual areas like autophagy in the kidneys, autophagy in the muscle, autophagy in the heart. The majority of the studies are rodent studies. And then at the end, it makes the conclusion that fasting does upregulate autophagy. They're kind of saying that the way it reads is that that applies to humans. But then the confusing thing is the majority of the studies are looking at are rodents. I don't really know how that extends to humans. And so, it's hard to reach to the conclusion that it's a very vague conclusion. I think it's a very vague idea that a lot of people have about fasting and autophagy and I think we just don't know. 

Like, I think this 2021 study, which was actually published in 2022, I guess it was published online in 2021 and in the journal in 2022, I think their summary about it's unknown. That's what I came away with. We don't actually know with fasting, in humans how much it's increasing autophagy. All of that said, I'll go back to what I said earlier about we do know autophagy is linked to AMPK. We know that AMPK is activated by fasting and that the longer you fast, you're probably getting more of that stimulus. So, I would say that probably the longer you fast, you're getting more autophagy. All of that to say, I wouldn't stress about it too much. I would just know that fasting is creating these beneficial health effects. But I wouldn't do fasting specifically to activate autophagy if that makes sense. If that's the case, I don't know, but you might need to do a longer fast to get like really deep autophagy, kind of like Peter Attia says. That was a long answer. What are your thoughts, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, thank you for that beautiful explanation. I just want to take that and just say that there are other ways to induce autophagy in the body that are not just related to fasting because I think oftentimes people forget that there are other ways to upregulate autophagy and one of those is exercise. And I think a lot about high intensity interval training as being one. I think about low-carb diets which can be helpful. I think about hot and cold exposure. I know we spoke earlier about Joovv and that's a different type of red light therapy, but I always say exposure to extreme, so extremes of temperature can be very helpful. I remind people that it's funny, there's one podcast that I really like. It's always like short little 15, 20-minute clips. And so, Mike Mutzel whose High Intensity Health and he was talking about would you rather fast really long or just do HIIT or just do these other things. So, just something to consider that there are other ways to upregulate this process beyond fasting. Even hyperbaric oxygen therapy has been shown to induce autophagy and there're even foods that can help induce autophagy, like in the brain. I think about things that are polyphenol rich, so coffee and green tea. I also think about MCT oil, ginger and turmeric, even sulforaphane, there's good research on that as well, so just something to consider. 

Obviously, I'm coming at it from a different direction, but I know that for myself, I don't like really long fasts and I think after my experience, it's almost four years ago now and it's getting less and less triggered by this. But doing long fast is just not going to be part of my fasting practice given how long I was unable to eat. So, from my perspective, if you feel like you really struggled to get to 18, 19, 20 hours, don't white-knuckle it, like no one listening to this podcast, that is never the message that we are trying to send. We want there to be common sense. We want you to have success with using this strategy or other types of strategies, but we definitely want you to be cognizant of where you feel like your limitations are and there's no shame in that whatsoever. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. Yeah, even coffee, oh my goodness. Even coffee has been shown to upregulate it and can't believe I forgot berberine. How did I forget that. So, my most recent supplement berberine, it's actually a potent activator of both AMPK and autophagy, which is super awesome. So, its main benefit that people take berberine for is blood sugar control. So, it can rival the effects of metformin for its blood sugar lowing potential and its ability to reduce HbA1c. It can help with the gut microbiome. There’s actually, I found, an entire paper dedicated to its effect on AMPK, which was an autophagy, which is super awesome. So, you can also get that @avalonx.us and those coupon codes will work as well. 

But yeah, I'm glad, Cynthia, that you drew attention to that there are a lot of ways to stimulate it, and I wish I could find it, but literally there's a study and I just loved it because it literally said, autophagy is a process happening 24/7 in the body, which I think a lot of people don't quite realize.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and I think it's interesting because both Thomas DeLauer and Mike speak about this a lot. So, even with my team, I've reminded them that we need to make sure that we're offering different options because there are some people that they would have to white-knuckle it to get to a 24-hour fast. There're other ways to evoke these processes in the body without having to white-knuckle it. I'll be completely transparent and say that I loathe being cold, but that just tells me that I need to be cold more often. So, [laughs] you're doing cryotherapy has become something I do once or twice a week because that's obviously what my body needs. If it's the thing I don't want to be doing, it's generally the thing I need to be doing. 

Melanie Avalon: That's something that happened since we've talked. I interviewed Thomas DeLauer.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love Thomas. He's so smart. 

Melanie Avalon: He was really, really great. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Super smart. He's such a smart guy. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. He likes [chuckles] kind of what I just did with the studies. He loves diving. He really follows the literature. I was really impressed. Like, I asked him questions and he just had all these studies ready and waiting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I'm excited. I'll see him in less than two weeks. We're both speaking at the same event. He's speaking on Friday, I'm speaking on Saturday, but I'll be able to see him again. He's incredibly-- I think it's a really good example of a guy who's really well respected in the space and so knowledgeable. And I tell him all the time, he'll pull a study that I hadn't even seen and I'm like, “Oh, I'm down a rabbit hole,” because [laughs] Thomas did a video on it and now I need to know more about it. So, he does create his great content on YouTube. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought it was really great. What's interesting is when I had asked for questions from listeners, a lot of the main questions I got, they actually wanted to know about his family and his wife. So, that's how I started off the show and I thought it was-- I think it was a nice way to start because he was able to speak too like his wife's experience with social media and it was a really fun conversation. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I spoke at an event with him, so I met him in October of 2021, and he is as nice and down to earth as they could be. It was kind of Ben Azadi and I and Anna Cabeca and some other people spoke at this event, and he was just so gracious. He's actually little bit shy, which I was surprised by. I think people are surprised to learn that I'm shy, but he's really shy, but could not have been nicer. Really nice guy. He seems like a very devoted husband and parent to his kids. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and actually that's how I ended it, was asking him about how he deals with diet and nutrition and all of that with his kids. So, yeah, I really enjoyed it. So where are you speaking? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm speaking at Low Carb Denver and this is probably the event I've been most excited to speak at because so many of my friends are speaking at it. It's going to be like a big reunion, [laughs] which will be a lot of fun. Some of my team is coming, and it's in Denver, and we have family in Denver, and so for me it's always a special place to fly to. And I can fly direct, Melanie, that's huge. [laughs] Where I live in the United States nothing flies direct. So, if I can fly direct, it's a win-win. 

Melanie Avalon: That's awesome. Awesome, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. I'm just thinking about how I need to update that page. If anybody is looking for an internship, I should probably start, like, publicizing this. I haven't actually listed. Have you had an intern before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, not yet. 

Melanie Avalon: I need to list this. I just need to take the step to put the listing up, but I should probably start putting that out to the universe. If anybody's in school and would like to do an internship, I just would love to bring on an intern tangents. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, Cynthia is @cynthia_ thurlow_. The show notes for today's episode that will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, because we talked about a lot of stuff. So, the Safe Catch coupon, Joovv, all the studies, the AvalonX supplements, all the things that will be at ifpodcast.com/episode307. All righty, anything from you, Cynthia, before we go? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, this has been great. 

Melanie Avalon: Likewise, and I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 26

Episode 306: Shower Thoughts, Chewing Ice, Gum, Easy Recipes Ideas, Picky Eaters, Berberine, Ozempic, Insulin, Glucagon, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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SHOW NOTES

Visit IFpodcast.com/episode306 For FULL Shownotes, And IFPodcast.com/StuffWeLike For All The Stuff We Like!

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

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Check Out Cynthia's creatine and other products at cynthiathurlow.com!

14:50 - Listener Q&A: Kara - Does chewing ice breaks a fast… if I’ve chewed on gum everyday for 20 years- is it possible my body has adjusted to this and knows no food is coming when it registers Trident gum?

26:25 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

28:00 - Listener Q&A: Desiree - Need easy healthy meals for busy family of 6....3 of which are very picky!!

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Check out Noel Tarr's Recipes at @coconutandkettlebells on Instagram!

37:10 - Listener Q&A: Eileen - Favorite brand of Berberine and when do you take it? What are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug, Semaglutide (Ozempic), for weight loss?

Episode 296: Berberine, Insulin Sensitivity, Glucose Control, Gut Health, Liver Health, Body Recomposition, AMPK Activation, Cholesterol Control, And More!

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

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49:10 - NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And Get 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support 
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nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST


Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes including clean fast, friendly electrolytes for free, yes, for free. I talk about a lot of products on these shows and when it comes to supporting fasting and/or the ketogenic diet, there is a supplement which is a game changer. I cannot tell you how many times I get feedback from my audience about how this was the key to addressing issues that people often experience with keto or fasting.

It is so so important to replenish electrolytes if you want to have energy and an active lifestyle. A lot of people experience the keto flu or issues while fasting, like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness. These are all common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. You might think you're not doing well with fasting or that the keto diet isn't for you when really you just need electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you'd like to learn all about the science of electrolytes and get answers to commonly asked questions, definitely check out the interview I did with my hero Robb Wolf on this show. He's also one of the co-founders of LMNT. There have been moments in my life where I needed electrolytes and drinking some LMNT took me from a state of fatigue to feeling like my body was actually alive.

Of course, it can be hard to find electrolytes, which are clean and good to put in your body. That's why I adore LMNT. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don't. That's a science-packed electrolyte ratio 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium with none of the junk, no sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS, because we don't have time for that. You guys know I'm obsessed with purity and quality of supplements. LMNT is the electrolyte supplement that I recommend. When you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. When sodium is not replaced, a common side effect is muscle cramps and fatigue. LMNT is used by everyone including NBA, NFL, and NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALS, and of course, everyday moms and dads, those practicing intermittent fasting, the keto or paleo diet, and exercise enthusiasts.

Right now, LMNT has a fantastic offer for our audience. You can get a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single-serving packets of eight different flavors for free with any LMNT order. Yes, the raw unfavored version is clean fast friendly. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That's D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Try it, totally risk free. If you don't like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give you your money back, no questions asked. You literally have nothing to lose. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup maybe playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the new born. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

 

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means, when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive.

I use their overnight resurfacing peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey, even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

Lastly, if you're thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This Is Episode number 306 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie. How are you? 

Melanie Avalon: I am good. What is new in your life? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, let's see. By the time this comes out, I will have been back from one trip and looking forward to another. So, I'm kind of in this perfect haze right now of two trips in February; one for pleasure, one for work. Same thing in April; one for pleasure, one for work [chuckles] and so knowing that I'm not doing as much traveling as I did last year right now is feeling really good. Like I'm in a sweet spot. I'm always in the midst of planning travel, but right now it's been those kinds of things I'm looking forward to and getting my kids enrolled. They're both doing programs at Duke this summer. So, it's exciting/terrifying that they're going to be away for two weeks [laughs] in a very safe environment, academic environment, but still, they'll only be about 2 hours away from home. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, they're really big kids now." How about you? 

Melanie Avalon: I definitely need your travel skills. I met Max Travel once a month and even that is too much for me. Yes, so actually, by the time this comes out it will be really exciting because I think we will have launched a new form of subscriptions for either all of my supplements or one of my supplements. We're moving towards doing a type of subscription where people only get one bottle rather than multiple bottles to help cut down on waste and shipping costs and all of that, so I'm really really excited about that. I feel like there's so much potential with everything, especially now having my own product line and like you as well Cynthia, I just always want to make everything better and improve and optimize. It's exciting to see how we can continue to do that with sustainability on the subscription and the bottle side of things. I already have glass bottles, [chuckles] but I think I mentioned this before, like, I still have plastic caps, of course, so I want to look at that there. It's just exciting to always be innovating and all of that. Which, speaking of, here's a little fun fact. Do you know why people often have epiphanies in the shower? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Did you know there's like psychology behind that? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. 

Melanie Avalon: This is so interesting. I read this in one book and then I interviewed who was I interviewing about this? Marc Milstein. I just interviewed him. He wrote a book called The Age-Proof Brain and it was a really amazing comprehensive look at why we have brain aging and it was a fascinating conversation. In any case, the way our brains work, they did a study where they interviewed really high performing people. It was like Nobel Prize winners, like people who were like at the top of their game in different jobs. So, like art and science and they thought that everybody would have different ways of innovation, but it was actually all very similar, which was that the people dedicated a lot of time and focus and effort into learning the skill, or practicing or doing the thing, and then they would have moments of not doing that and then that's when their insight would come to them. So, I think was it, Billy Joel? One of them was like a singer. He said the best tunes often came to him when he washing the dishes. So, in order to innovate, the key seems to be to put a lot of effort and time and focus into learning your skill, and focusing on that and then having this time where you're not. So, when you're in the shower, being in the shower is one of the only times in the day, especially in our modern society, where we're always on our phones, where you're literally not doing anything else. I mean, unless you have your phone in the shower, but you're not doing anything, you're not mentally engaging in something like, you're not reading, you're not on your phone and so it's this moment where your brain actually is in this resting mode and it can have these epiphanies, [chuckles] which is super interesting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That is really interesting. It makes a great deal of sense because most people are not tethered to a piece of technology in the shower, hopefully. 

Melanie Avalon: Exactly. Yeah, super cool. I love learning about the brain. Yeah, anything else or shall we just jump into everything for today? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think I should probably mention that creatine subscriptions are coming. So, by the time this comes out, we are going to be offering two bags every three months. If people lock into the discounted price that is for your lifetime, which is really exciting. And then the very beginning of March, we're going to start talking about my brand-new supplement that's coming out. Melanie, knows what it is, but I'm not yet allowed to discuss it. Suffice it to say, it will continue to focus on brain, sleep, and metabolic health. So, it'll be consistent with creatine, obviously a different product. It's a single ingredient, which I love. I don't know if you saw Huberman just had like a podcast episode or was talking about this, how he's a fan of single ingredient supplements so that you know exactly what you're getting as opposed to like a hodgepodge of five or six things together like a blend. There's nothing wrong with having a blend, but their benefits from a solitary ingredient as opposed to many different ingredients.

Melanie Avalon: I could not agree more about the single ingredients. I think it's so, so important. Yeah, I am so, so passionate about the single ingredients because again, we're not putting down blends. There are a lot of really great blends out there, but there's just something really nice to really testing one thing at a time and knowing how it's affecting you, and being able to titrate accordingly. For listeners, all of the resources for everything, for the AvalonX supplements, they can go to avalonx.us/emaillist, to get updates or avalonx.us, to get the supplements. The coupon code, MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide for everything and you can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX 877-861-8318. Cynthia, how about you for your supplements? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, just go directly to cynthiathurlow.com and we have everything on my home page that will allow you to gain access to creatine with a subscription which will be coming out in mid, actually, February 10th, and then the new subscription will be announced very beginning of March.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. Well, we will put links to all of that in the show notes. Okay. We can start with some listener questions. So, we have a question from Kara. The subject is, "Is chewing ice clean fasting?" And Kara says, "Hi, I've researched a lot and listened to a ton of your podcasts/interviews listening for you to answer about if chewing ice breaks a fast. I'm a 20 -plus year sugar free gum chewer Trident all day. So, to fast clean I'm trying to break the gum habit with chewing on ice instead, but I heard someone say anything that makes your brain think food is coming needs to be out. So, is chewing ice still considered clean? Part 2, if I've chewed gum every day for 20 years, is it possible my body has adjusted to this and knows that no food is coming when it registers Trident gum?" Thank you. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay Kara, well, these are two very different things. Chewing on water which is frozen water is ice, I think is very different than chewing gum. I would imagine that you are not breaking a clean fast by chewing water or chewing ice. However, if you are using sugar free gum, which has chemicals that are impacting your saliva and getting your body potentially ready to accommodate a food bolus if you were chewing a food-like substance other than gum is very different, so I would say yes to chewing ice. I think that's probably pretty benign. I would say chewing on gum is technically going to tell your body that food is coming. There's this whole cephalic phase insulin response in response to your body thinking that food is coming. That is always something that I encourage people to just be cognizant of. If you are weight loss resistant, if anyone's weight loss resistant, this is when some of these things can make a little bit of an impact. Most of those sugar free gums are made with if it's not sucralose, they're generally made with non-nutritive sweeteners. There's gums and fillers and sometimes even seed oils that are in these products, so just try to pick a clean option. Melanie, I know you mentioned that we've gotten this question a couple of times over the years. What's your opinion? 

Melanie Avalon: We have answered this, but it was quite a while ago. By the way, for listeners, if they go to ifpodcast.com there's a search option there and you can search through, it's a very good search, because how some sites don't have that good of a search. Ours is really good and we have transcripts on all of the episodes, so if we talked about it, it will find it. So, for example, I just searched for ice and a lot of things came up. But apparently, we talked about this in episode 105. So, 200 episodes ago, which is crazy. We answered a question from Kelly, "Does eating ice break the fast?" but it's been a while, so we can answer that again. So, it's a really good question. It goes back to what I think I was talking about last week, which is the concept of breaking a fast and why are certain things breaking a fast and other things not? Why is blood sugar raising from coffee or tea, for example, breaking a fast, but not from exercise or stress? 

So, same with the chewing and the ice. Like having that chewing response, like Cynthia was saying, might activate certain digestive processes. The sweet taste, like Cynthia, was mentioning, might activate that cephalic phase insulin response. So, again, it's the nitty gritty in the nuances but I actually think it's really important because it might affect your experience of the fast and I think it might be individual for different people. Chewing ice is not adding calories to your body, but is it making your body think food is coming in and if so, is it going to have hormonal effects that might make it more difficult to maintain the fast. It's a lot of things that I think people get really hung up on, and perhaps rightly so, because I think it's really important to understand what is and what is not being conducive to how you're experiencing everything. For Kara's question, the gum and the ice, and Cynthia mentioned all this, but I mean, the gum that's chewing with all of this flavor signaling and sweetness and so that is definitely sending your body messages of food.

The ice, it's really just the chewing part of it because presumably the ice is not flavored. I think in the ideal world, moving away from this and moving to just water, black coffee, tea would be the ideal way to go. I really like your second question, Kara, about, "Is it possible that your body has adjusted to this because you've been doing it for 20 years?" That's a really good question. I don't think anybody's asked that before. I actually don't know. I don't know how the body works with memory related to all of this. Does it learn and make that association? I really don't know. It still doesn't change my answer, though, which is that having that sweetness, I think, is sending mixed messages. A lot of those ingredients, I think, are things we probably don't want to be taking in anyways. So, do you have thoughts on that, Cynthia, that her body might have learned because she's been chewing so long that it's not having calories? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Obviously, I'm not a brain physiologist researcher, but I think about the net impact of a lot of gum products that have the non-nutritive sweeteners, many of them have got seed oils in them and I can't imagine that a product like that is per se something that your body gets accustomed to, like other types of things, like other types of beneficial stressors, like exercise or heat or cold exposure. I don't know the answer to that. I didn't look for any research on that. But I think, unfortunately, the more I know about gum in general, unless you're using, like, a really clean option, your buccal mucosa, which is the mucosa in your mouth, is very vascular. We give a lot of medications, in particular that route because it is so vascular. I just think about the net impact of those kinds of things, and I just think there're so many other ways around it. I know Gin was a huge proponent of, I think, it was the WOW Drops as an option and like brushing your teeth and there're just so many other things you can do that probably are a whole lot healthier than most conventional gum. I'm sure there are some clean gums out there, the flavor doesn't last very long, but definitely something you want to avoid if at all possible. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and it's interesting. I used to chew all the gum I was obsessed with. Do you remember those dessert gums? Did you ever have those? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't think so. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness. It was like Willy Wonka. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I was about to say was it like Willy Wonka? 

Melanie Avalon: Yes, and I literally tasted, like, they have apple pie and it literally tasted like you're eating apple pie. I would go through a pack of that stuff. Did you ever have the chewing gum habit where you just go through the pack? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, yeah! I mean, I was one of the people that never drank coffee, and I would round on patients in the hospital, and there's nothing worse than being a patient and having some stinky providers breath, like coffee breath or whatever they've been eating or consuming onions. I was always very cognizant of that, so I would chew gum for a little while and I'd spit it out and I have more. So, yeah, there was definitely a time period. What's interesting is during the pandemic, I wasn't traveling like most of us and I had this gum habit that I only chewed gum when I was in the car, and I only chewed gum when I was in the hospital. I completely lost the desire to chew gum and I literally have not chewed gum in like three years. I now laugh that I used to be such a conscientious-- I'm still a conscientious breath person, but I'm now finding other ways to freshen my breath that do not involve some of the junkie gums that are out there. It's interesting when you were mentioning the dessert gums, I was literally, in my mind thinking, that sounds like Willy Wonka. 

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. It was completely like Willy Wonka, which I didn't realize until recently that the Wonka brand of candy no longer exists, which made me really sad to hear. But interestingly, I haven't chewed gum in years and it wasn't because of the fasting. It was because of TMDD, what people call TMJ, which is actually TMDD, which really just exacerbated that, which interestingly-- Do you have any experience or do people who have had Botox in their what is that muscle called, the masseter jaw muscle. Do you know anybody who's done that for TMJ?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I've had friends that have done that for TMJ and then also friends who've had debilitating migraines and have done Botox and have had really good results with that. For anyone that's the same, this is not for cosmetic purposes. These are people that have tried everything and are just looking for some relief. Yes, and I know the research on both has been pretty compelling, obviously covered by insurance because these neuromodulators are not just for aesthetics. They can also help people that are dealing with muscular tension that's creating pain, in some instances, chronic pain. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I actually just got that done and I feel like I might need to put some more in. Apparently, that muscle requires a lot of Botox units because basically what it does is it's paralyzing the muscle and so you're not having that clenching, the issue I have at night is I just really really clench. I'm really excited to see if it helps. Apparently, she would show me before and after pictures. Apparently, I think it's popular in Asia, they will do it aesthetically because it will slim your face. Because if you have really intense muscles there, it widens your jaw on your face so you can do it aesthetically. I'm doing it completely for the TMDD. If anybody lives in Atlanta actually the reason, I found out about this was it's the place where I get my Emsculpt that I'm obsessed with, the muscle stimulation. So, they do Botox there aesthetically and medically like this, so Slim Studio in Atlanta I'm obsessed with, definitely check them out. So, I'll let you know. I really hope that it's effective because I've had TMJ issues for so long. Have you had those issues at all? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. Did you have braces? 

Melanie Avalon: I did and I had my wisdom teeth out and that's when it started. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I was going to say, it seems to be like the patients of mine that had braces, I mean, I've had braces and I've had my wisdom teeth out because I just have the classic when I think about James Nestor's book, the classic like, small face, small mouth and big teeth. And so thankfully I don't, but I don't eat bread. I mean, not things that make my mouth open, like obscenely large but I remember years ago when I did eat bread and eat subs and things that you grew up with, if you grew up at the Jersey Shore, I could sometimes get like a clicking in my jaw, but never pain.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. I used to have really bad clicking and it was an issue when I would record audiobooks because you would hear the clicking.

Cynthia Thurlow: Interesting. Our next sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially tried it because I travel so frequently and it just makes my life so much easier to have a convenient healthy option. I typically will take it in the morning, after working out, or after my morning tea, and it makes me feel like I have so much more energy. And for me, it's all about convenience, I can take my travel packs with me whether I'm traveling for business, whether I'm traveling for pleasure. I can throw it in my bag and I know I can make it through security without any issues. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010 and a part of my morning for the last three to four years. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins and minerals, as well as whole food sourced ingredients that positively benefit my energy and sleep. I also love that they are supporters of donating to organizations helping to get nutritious food to kids in need including No Kid Hungry here in the United States. Athletic Greens has donated over 1.2 million meals to kids in 2020. So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. These travel packs make it so easy and convenient to bring Athletic Greens with you anywhere. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast that’s athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast, definitely check it out.

Melanie Avalon: Shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Here's a question from one of our AMAs and it's from Desiree and she says, "I need easy, healthy meals for a busy family of six, three of which are very picky." I know Cynthia, you and I have had conversations about this, so I would love to hear your thoughts about dealing with picky children.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. Well, I'm just going to tell you what works well in our house. I have two very athletic teenagers. I have a husband who still plays competitive sports, does Jiu Jitsu, etc. The only way we survive is meal prep. It's not sexy. You have to meal prep. We meal prep at least two days a week. That means steaks, burgers, roasted chicken, vegetables that are prepped, making sure that the kids are involved in meal prep in terms of things that they want to have for their school lunches or have for snacks. Yes, they're still in this massive anabolic phase, so they eat a lot of food. That's the only way we survive and it's always been our philosophy. Obviously, I now have teenagers, but we never prepared different meals. The expectations were that whatever we prepared for dinner was what everyone was eating or the next meal was breakfast. My kids have learned to have a pretty diverse palate. They weren't kids that just ate chicken nuggets and French fries and I think a lot of parents, because it's hard, I get it when your kids are younger, you want to get them to eat. But children sometimes need to have food introduced to them 20 times before they will acclimate to it, whether it's a vegetable, a fruit, a protein, etc.

We've never allowed our kids to-- obviously they have preferences, let me be clear, but my children weren't allowed to pick and choose. It was like, this is what's being served, and if you don't want to eat, your next meal is breakfast. And we've never had that happen ever. [laughs] I think it's because we've just set that expectation. You have to meal prep, setting expectations. This is why I think Green Chef is a great option. My kids are now at an age where when we get a Green Chef box, they can put the meal together themselves.

Obviously, they eat two or three portions at a time. It's definitely you have to make sure you have enough food based on where your kids are age wise. Green Chef is one of those easy options where you can pick whatever nutritional profile you're interested in. We usually do paleo or keto and then we just lean into it. We can pick the proteins and that's worked really really well. I have a child with life-threatening food allergies, so we're able to navigate that. You know 'they' meaning Green Chef, has really been great about avoiding nuts and peanuts and things like that. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: This is another reason I probably am not made to have kids. [chuckles] Oh, it's just so much to deal with. When I read it, I was going to suggest Green Chef, so I'm glad that you brought that up. If listeners would like to check out Green Chef, they can go to greenchef.com/ifpodcast. The code changes around, the most recent code was IFPODCAST599. That actually got $5.99 per meal on your first box, which ships free, which is super awesome. I'm not a parent, so I can't really speak to this super amazingly but ButcherBox, huge fan of ButcherBox as far as sourcing really delicious meat that would come straight to your door. That can really help save on time. What's really great, I think if you have a lot of freezer space or a chest freezer, you can just always have lots of chicken and steak and everything in the freezer, so then really easy access to that, so butcherbox.com/ifpodcast will get you whatever offer is current. Right now, for example, you can actually get a chuck roast and a whole chicken all for free. That's a grass-fed and grass-finished chuck roast. That is organic, free range whole chicken and $10 off. That's an amazing offer, that's butcherbox.com/ifpodcast. I think, especially with the whole chicken, I know that's a really cool route to go, because that's something that you can make last for a long time. Like, you can actually make the chicken in the beginning and use the actual meat and rotisserie, and then you can save it for making soups and bone broth and things like that so that's really incredible. Yeah, as far as the pickiness, I really like your approach, Cynthia, of making the meal and this is what it is and people can eat or not eat.

Again, I don't have kids, but I think if I were to have kids, because I've been asked this a lot and I've thought about this a lot. And again, this actually is a reason that I don't see myself having kids because I don't want to deal with all of this. I just think that our modern food environment is so toxic to our health and our life and so many things, and so how do you raise children to eat healthy, but also not make them feel stifled and to the point where they rebel or feel like they can't eat certain things and create a food complex which you wouldn't want anyways. So, the way I've thought about if I were to have kids, how I would do it and how I would deal with pickiness and everything is-- and this is what I hear on a lot of podcasts I listen to, like I love Robb Wolf's podcast, Healthy Rebellion Radio. They talk a lot about how they raise their kids with food and things like that. I really just like the approach of making the messaging around food being about the health and about how you can eat different foods, but they might not make you feel very good. [chuckles] 

Certain foods will make you feel good and other foods might not. Food isn't good or bad. It just has different effects. And so, If I had kids within my house that's where I would have the control over what can be eaten. In my house, I would choose what type of food was in the house. If we had meals, I would not entertain the pickiness if that makes sense. So, I would not accommodate the pickiness. I would just, like Cynthia said, have the meals and this is what we're having. I would make it very clear that when they are out in the world that certain foods probably won't make them feel good if they eat them. So, I think approaching everything with love and education and also just not entertaining pickiness, which I understand, I bet so many moms are listening and be like, Melanie, you don't have kids, [laughs] what are you saying from your high horse? But those are my thoughts about that. I wish I had more insight. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and the other thing is you have so much more control when your kids are younger because you're their whole world. Whereas now I have a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old, and they go to sports events, they do things independently, they're much more independent and so you have to hope that you're investing in them really good tenets for being able to navigate nutrition. I jokingly-- we've now been to four colleges for my 17-year-old to look at for applying for next year. It's been interesting, for him, being a very athletic 17-year-old going to a campus where there are a lot of food choices or they have nationally ranked food options has been a big focus beyond wanting to do an engineering program let me be clear. His priorities are in the right place, but he keeps saying, like, "I don't know what I'm going to do when I go off to college." I'm so used to having all this healthy food. I just said, "You're going to make good choices, you're going to make bad choices, but hopefully you understand enough about what's designed to fuel your body versus hyper palatable foods." It just gets a whole lot more interesting/challenging the older that they get. So, definitely just keep reintroducing things, meal prep, set the expectation. I grew up at a time when my Italian mother meant it, when she said, this is the meal you're served. I went to bed without food many times not because I didn't have food, I just didn't want to eat what was served. That's a powerful lesson to learn as a child or teenager. Even if they do that, they'll be okay. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. No, I love that so, so much. I'll also refer people to my friend Noelle Tarr. She's the co-host of Well-Fed Women. She has an amazing blog and she's always doing incredible recipes. So, definitely check her stuff out. Her Instagram is @coconutsandkettlebells. Actually, I think their book Coconuts and Kettlebells has a lot of recipes, so that might be something to check out as well. She has two kids who are adorable, but she's always talking about cooking as a busy mom for kids. I think to answer this question, probably finding somebody a resource that is somebody who talks about this regularly and then following their stuff. Okay, shall we go on to our next question? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. Eileen's AMA question is "Favorite brand of berberine and when to take it and what are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug semaglutide or Ozempic for weight loss?"

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I'm really excited about both of these questions. Berberine, [chuckles] this might go without saying, but I did recently release my own berberine, which I'm thrilled about. I'll put a link in the show notes. We did an entire deep dive episode into it with Scott Emmens. If you listen to Episode 296 of this podcast, that's a deep deep dive into berberine. Basically, long story short, berberine is a natural plant alkaloid that has been shown to have profound benefits on blood sugar regulation. In studies it actually can rival the effects of metformin, which is the go-to pharmaceutical drug for blood sugar control. It's been shown to do that without potential side effects that might come with pharmaceuticals, especially if you're wearing a CGM that we're big fans of. It's nice that you can see how it might affect your blood sugar levels. It does that by a lot of different mechanisms. It can actually inhibit the absorption of glucose in the gut, so that's a direct action and beyond that, this is actually going to tie into my answer about the semaglutide. It stops gluconeogenesis so the production of new sugar in the liver because a lot of people think that resting high blood sugar levels and the issues from that are from the food that we just ate, which that probably is the initial cause for a lot of people for high blood sugar levels and prediabetes and diabetes.

In the moment, high resting blood sugar levels are pretty much coming from your liver, especially like high fasting glucose levels. It actually stops that in the liver. It can have a profound effect there. It can modulate the gut microbiome beneficially, so preferentially increase "good bacteria" and I use quote because are they really good and bad bacteria? It's really hard to make that case, actually, but it can increase bacteria that can have a good effect, like short chain fatty acid production and metabolic health and discourage "bad bacteria" that can have a negative effect. One of my favorite benefits, it has been shown to stimulate both AMPK and autophagy, which are two things we talk about on this show a lot. AMPK not quite as much, but autophagy all the time. Autophagy is a cellular clean-up process where the body actually goes down and breaks down problematic proteins in your body, and recycles them. It's kind of like a cleanse on the cellular level. Fasting is a great way to stimulate autophagy, so is exercise, but berberine has been shown to stimulate it as well. That AMPK pathway, that is also a pathway that's often activated by fasting as well as it's activated by any cellular stress. So, dieting, exercise, fasting and it's connected to a lot of longevity benefits, so berberine can activate that as well.

For the question about what is the best berberine, I wanted to formulate the best berberine on the market that's why it took so so long for us to actually make my berberine, because we kept checking different sources and nothing was testing for the purity and potency that we wanted. We finally found a source and we made it without problematic fillers and it's just absolutely incredible. It comes in a glass bottle tested multiple times for purity and potency and all the things, I'm taking it every day. Yes, you can get it at avalonx.us coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off, that is berberine. Cynthia, have you ever taken berberine? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I have. This is where bio individuality certainly prevails. I've taken berberine as antimicrobial, it is quite potent. It's one of the few things, I'm very sensitive to berberine. So, for as many people as it's very helpful, I think there are those of us that just we have to take things a little more cautiously. This is where I will-- I actually cycle my patients on and off of berberine so they'll stay on for a period of time and then we'll cycle them off and try some other things to help with insulin sensitivity. I think it's very bio individual, but I do think there's a lot of compelling research and good information. It's as efficacious as Glucophage or Metformin, which is an oral diabetes medication. Certainly, with the rampant metabolic ill health here in the United States and most westernized countries, it's definitely something that people can utilize as needed or certainly take daily if you tolerate it. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you drew attention to that. Some people do cycle on and off, some people do long term, but I definitely think it's really important to find what works for you and ideally work with a practitioner if possible. To answer her question about when to take it, conventionally people usually take it before meals. I actually take it when I wake up, so in the morning or the fasted state, and that's what I like. It's something that you can experiment with and play around and you'll probably again, having a CGM is really nice because then you can actually see how it's affecting your responses to meals and things like that. We love NutriSense. So, if you go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST, you can get a discount on NutriSense CGMs. Okay. I'm super excited about her second question. She says, "What are your thoughts on the use of the diabetic drug semaglutide, Ozempic for weight loss? Do you have thoughts on this one, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. I'm actually going to be bringing on an expert. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and I are very good friends and we're trying to align our calendars because she uses it quite a bit in her practice. I have limited prescribing and limited experience with it beyond peers, many of whom are-- they love Ozempic. They've got patients that are having incredible results from it. I think it's always with a bit of caution. Interestingly enough, there was a whole conversation on Twitter about [chuckles] semaglutide probably about two weeks ago. I'm going to include the journal article that was submitted with it because it was very interesting. I read it with great interest. It's a little sciencey, but there's a nice kind of abstract at the very top. The two big things that I always think are important to counsel patients about number one, side effects and they can be quite significant. If you're someone that is prone to nausea that can be a dose related issue, so for some people, you really have to go low and slow with the dosing mechanisms. And this is something that's injected subcutaneously. So, you're keeping it stored in the refrigerator. You're drying up at a time, injecting it into your abdomen depending on the directions that you're getting from your healthcare practitioner. Some people have a little bit of nausea, some people have no nausea, some people have a lot of nausea, described to me as this is what it felt like when I was pregnant, that's pretty significant.

The other major side effect that patients are reporting is constipation. It's designed to slow gut motility, so that you feel satiated and full. One of the side effects is you don't get hungry because your gut motility is kind of slowed down. For a lot of people that's what mitigates the weight loss, but they also get terribly constipated. That for me, for a lot of women, they've had to really balance how much do they want to be taking this drug, how badly do they want to lose weight. For a lot of people, they're focused on the weight loss and changes in body composition. I always focus more on metabolic health, like if you're insulin resistant, if you've got weight to lose. Actually, I'm preparing a presentation right now talking about insulin sensitive, obese people. Not everyone who is obese or overweight is insulin resistant, but in the context of this question, I think it's really interesting. The paper that I'm looking at is called GLP-1, which is the type of drug signaling and regulation of adipocytes, so those are fat cells, differentiation and lipogenesis. I'm kind of scanning through, I've read the whole thing already. Some of the concerns that have been expressed by some of the scientists is the potentiality for this rebound.

When you stop taking the drug, you're going to get a rebound because all of a sudden, you're now hungry in many ways probably appropriately. There was some concern about the differentiation in adipose tissue and so taken together in this study, we demonstrated that GLP-1, which is the type of drug that it is, can directly promote preadipocyte differentiation via a different mechanism. A lot of the scientists on Twitter were expressing concern saying we don't think this is like magic in a bottle. I think what I'm saying is, I'm not an expert. I think anytime we have drugs that come to market that are designed to fuel rapid weight loss and I think about Fen-Phen, I'm old enough to have lived through that where people were given phentermine and a drug that ended up causing some heart damage and that's not what I'm suggesting is happening here. I'm just saying we don't know. This is actually done in a mouse model as well as in vitro. For me, I think it's always approach things cautiously, make sure you fully understand, you get fully informed consent, you understand, the practitioner you're working with. This is not something you go to some clinic, like you do actually want to have an established relationship with someone and just make sure you're both going through the side effects, the pros and cons and make sure it's something you feel comfortable with. Do you have any thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, what was it saying about the preadipocytes? 

Cynthia Thurlow: It says the GLP can directly promote preadipocyte differentiation via a GLP-1 receptor dependent mechanism. I will include this in the show notes and it's actually really interesting. It's very sciencey. It's a cellular physiology in biochemistry paper, but it's one that was getting passed around between the clinicians and it's one I actually hung on to when I knew that we might potentially talk about this at some point. 

Melanie Avalon: I'd like to read it. What is that saying? I mean, preadipocyte differentiation. How so? How is it differentiating them? Do you know? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think the concern is that, I'm actually just sending it to you right now, we don't fully understand yet what the long-term effects are going to be and there's some mTOR dysregulation that goes on. I mean, there's a lot of discussion that's going on that it's not as benign and that's not a bad thing. I think when people are questioning a drug that's being utilized and people are very interested in it that's not a bad thing. Because I think like most things, we have to continue doing research to determine what are the long-term effects. Obviously, if we're looking at individuals who are not metabolically healthy, losing weight is going to beneficial, like ultimately losing weight. But is it something that they're going to be able to sustain after they stop the drug. Because the drug from what I understand is not designed to be taken forever. It's supposed to be something that facilitates weight loss. The way that it's working, the mechanism in the small intestine is it's making people feel full. It's making people feel so full they're not eating. This wouldn't be a drug I would be super excited to introduce to someone who's already fasting unless there's someone that's struggling to kind of moderate their food consumption. Again, working with someone that's well versed, I will be having, if not Gabrielle, it's going to be another expert. I'm going to have them on in March so that we can talk about it, because I'm getting so many questions. I'm like, I don't work with this drug. I just work with people who are already on it and then having conversations with their own healthcare practitioners to help them moderate their side effects that they're experiencing because nausea and constipation, most of us don't like. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. We talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them, how exercise affects them, how fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs.

Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on, so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun. Then you can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more, and you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietician will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement.

Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience, weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting, and so much more. Each device lasts for 14 days and of course, lasting, sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or twelve-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends you want to be in the world of CGMs. It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much, so definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

I'm really fascinated by this drug. I've been hearing a lot about it. What's interesting is it was originally approved to treat diabetes. It only recently got approved for weight loss. Now it's approved for weight loss if you have a BMI over 30 or if you have a BMI over 27 and then you have one related health condition, that's what it's actually approved for. There was a really interesting review that came out in May 2022 called Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review, shocker. And so that actually reviewed, they did a lot of trials called the STEP trials, so they did eight of them. and so, this was thousands of participants. They looked at semaglutide in multiple different situations, people with diabetes, and each trial was different things. They would compare it with behavioral modifications. One of the trials, they actually compared it with an intense dietary restriction. One of the trials looked at the Asian population.

Overall, the findings were pretty impressive. A once weekly subcutaneous semaglutide injection of 2.4 mg was consistently associated with mean weight losses of 14.9 to 17.4 in participants without diabetes. They also saw improvements in cardiometabolic risk factors, physical function, and quality of life. They say that it has a relative low risk safety profile, which again, Cynthia was talking about. We don't know the long-term effects of this, which is very true and definitely something to keep in mind. The side effects do tend to be nausea. Interestingly, originally, they were saying nausea and diarrhea, but I've heard constipation a lot. I remember when I first heard about it, it was actually Peter Attia talking about it on his podcast and he was talking about the constipation. I was like, nope, I can never take that. But to go back to the actual mechanism of action, though, and this when I was talking about the berberine and I said that something was going to relate. 

So, there're three main things going on with why they think this is working. It actually increases insulin production, which originally it was and still is used for people with diabetes and prediabetes. So, increasing insulin can reduce blood sugar levels. [laughs] People are probably listening and being like, wait, I thought what we're trying to do all the time is decrease insulin production. The second part of this is that it actually decreases glucagon. That's why it's actually a potent long-acting glucagon like peptide GLP-1 analog. Because of how it interacts with the receptors, actually stops the body's production of glucagon and so what glucagon does is actually encourages the release of sugar, glucose, essentially, from the liver. A lot of people with insulin resistance and issues with managing their blood sugar levels, and this goes back to what I was also saying earlier about how people often think that we're trying to fight the food we just ate. But really the thing that insulin is having to fight 24/7 is sugar being released from the liver. Think about it, a lot of people often will have glucagon going on, which it should be when glucagon is on and insulin is-- like it should be a like a seesaw. 

A lot of people can have them both going on at the same time. People are having high blood sugar levels and the liver is releasing blood sugar and then the pancreas is having to continually release insulin to combat that. I found a fascinating study granted this is a rodent trial and it's from quite a while ago, but it was looking at rodents that they literally obliterated their pancreas, like they weren't able to produce insulin. This was fascinating. When they turned off glucagon, the rodents completely normalized their blood sugar issues. They weren't producing insulin, but because they weren't producing glucagon, their body was able tolerate meals and sugar because the theory in that paper is that insulin, what it's really combating is our endogenous glucose release, which would be spurred by glucagon. It's getting a little wordy, I realize, but the point is, semaglutide increases insulin while reducing glucagon. Now insulin can actually help usher blood sugar adequately into cells because it's not having to fight that blood sugar release from the liver because of the glucagon inhibition.

It also does delay gastric emptying like Cynthia was saying, so it can just affect appetite on top of that. The studies on it are really, really-- I mean, they're pretty impressive, those stats that I gave about the weight loss that was compared to placebo, and the placebo arms were always very minimal weight loss. So, I do think it's effective. I do have a lot of concerns like Cynthia was discussing about the long-term effects and she mentioned as well when people go off of it, they might rebound. I don't know, I think it's really powerful and I think it has a place, but I think it would need to be used very consciously and used as a tool to help get your body into a more healthy metabolic state, so then you can continue that on your own.

But I think what is really powerful is you can always, at any time, choose to make healthier choices, choose to do fasting, choose to change your dietary choices. Say that you use semaglutide as something to help you to become more metabolically healthy while you're on it and lose the weight. Then if you go off of it, who's stopping you from doing healthy food choices then and doing fasting then. I think a lot of people who are rebounding are people that aren't changing their diet, aren't making other changes and then they're going on this and they're going off and then they're just going back to the way they are and, of course you're going to have a rebound effect. I just like giving people agency surrounding that. One last thing I'll point out is the arm that looked at people doing semaglutide also with a restricted calorie diet type situation, they didn't see that much of a difference compared to not doing that restrictive diet, so that was pretty interesting. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think there's a lot to unpack. There're also shortages that are ongoing. Just like as a clinician, morally and ethically, there are people taking it who are already thin and just want to be thinner. That's very different than a diabetic or someone who is not very metabolically healthy taking the drug. It's going to be interesting to see what happens. I just got an advertisement in my email, I think, yesterday talking about how this one pharmacy now has semaglutide and you get two for one and who knows. But I think that much like anything, there's no panacea that's going to fix metabolic disease. This is just one of many tools that are available. I have several friends who are endocrinologists and they were saying the frustration of not being able to get the drug for patients actually who are diabetics who actually legitimately need it and need to lose weight. So, there's a lot to unpack here, but I think the big thing is if you choose to use it, make sure you're working with someone that's knowledgeable and that you're cautious and make sure you've got fully informed consent. I think that's certainly very important. 

Melanie Avalon: I'm so glad that you drew attention to that and it really helped, because I think that's what I was trying to articulate when I was talking about using it as a tool if you're at a state of obesity and severe metabolic syndrome like that's when I think it would be very helpful. Especially if people-- because sometimes you just need to get that momentum going. If that's something that can help spur people to get momentum going, I think it can be a really nice tool 100%. I think there's a major issue people who are already thin, already metabolically healthy, I would not want to use it. Even when I made the comment about when I heard about the constipation and then I said, no, I wasn't thinking to clarify, I was not thinking of taking it. It's just when I hear discussions of any pharmaceutical and they say constipation is a side effect, I'm just like, I would never-- you could not pay me. I'm really really glad that you drew attention to that. Yeah, I can see how that would be a major issue. It'll be really interesting to see how it goes, how this will continue to manifest. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it was interesting while were talking, just for fun, I went into Twitter and looked at what was trending and now there are celebrities outing one another over the use of semaglutide. I was like, okay, that's not story worthy but there's definitely a little bit of a backflash that's going along. To me, there's no shame if you choose to use it and you and your healthcare practitioner are going to monitor you closely and maybe that's going to allow you to get to a point where you're able to lose some stubborn weight and then you can work towards ensuring you're making good choices when you come off the drug. But the other side of that coin is there are biohackers out there that use semaglutide as they use what I would refer to affectionately as really small doses, so they're microdosing semaglutide and these are people that are healthy weights. That's a whole other phenomenon that we could leave for another podcast. But there's a lot about semaglutide that is fascinating/disturbing. 

Melanie Avalon: What is the intention with the microdosing? 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it helps curb appetite that's what they've told me. I the people [laughs] have mentioned to me they're using it because it's not my business. That's not what this platform is for. I am starting to see people that are microdosing it. They're using a very tiny therapeutic dose in the hopes that will help curb appetite. 

Melanie Avalon: Gotcha. Well, very interesting discussion. I'll be really interested if you and Gabrielle do something on it that would be really nice. 

Cynthia Thurlow: We're trying to coordinate our calendars, it's hard. She's been doing some traveling, but we will make it happen. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode306. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon. Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I love the AMA format. I think we've had a lot of fun with it. Just know that we'll continue to kind of leave these questions into our format. It's definitely been a lot of fun. 

Melanie Avalon: I agree. Awesome, awesome. Well, have a wonderful week and I will talk to you next week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good. 

Melanie Avalon: Bye. 

Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 19

Episode 305: CGMs, Travel, Being A Foodie, Hosting Dinner Parties, Bioidentical Hormones, Progesterone, THC & CBD, Pet Peeves, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 305 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast And A Whole Chicken Plus $10 Off!

LOMI: If You Want To Start Making A Positive Environmental Impact Or Just Make Clean Up After Dinner That Much Easier, Lomi Is Perfect For You! Turn Your Kitchen Scraps Into Dirt, To Reduce Waste, Add Carbon Back To The Soil, And Support Sustainability! Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

Athletic Greens: 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole-food sourced ingredients, probiotics, and adaptogens in one delicious scoop! Get A FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase at athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast And A Whole Chicken Plus $10 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL30 For 30% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture

How to Meet Your Self: The Workbook for Self-Discovery

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM Program And Get 1 Month Of
Free Dietitian Support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

22:50 - LOMI: Get $50 Off Lomi At lomi.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

26:00 - Listener Q&A: Laurie - I'm a foodie and an entertainer, and i'm fasting. Is there a happy medium?

39:25 - Listener Q&A: Tracy - Have you done an episode on BHRT and if not, would you address it?

39:30 - Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I'm on progesterone only HRT — Can you use estrogen even if you still have a period ? Will it cause weight gain?

Ep. 220 A Detailed Guide to Healthy Hormones with Dr. Lara Briden

Episode 4: Reboot Your Hormones Naturally with Dr. Tassone

Estrogen Matters

The Science of Positivity

Ep. 198 – Dispelling Myths About Hormone Replacement Therapy

#42 – Avrum Bluming, M.D. and Carol Tavris, Ph.D.: Controversial topic affecting all women—the role of hormone replacement therapy through menopause and beyond—the compelling case for long-term HRT and dispelling the myth that it causes breast cancer

45:30 - Listener Q&A: Stacy - Does THC inhibit weight loss while IF? 

52:40 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase Aathleticgreens.com/ifpodcast

54:05 - listener Q&AKatie - I love that the two of you are so positive. What would be interesting is to hear some of your biggest pet peeves.

Nicole - What are your pet peeves?

Theresa - Biggest turn-off?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 305 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get a grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. Yes, that is a free grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable.

I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees, and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options and you can change your plan whenever you want.

I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage-breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking, this is the most delicious thing ever. And people go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home. Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get a free grass-fed chuck roast and a free whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off when you sign up today. That's a chuck roast and a whole chicken plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream.

And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percentage of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter.

They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order.

Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It's sort of like the Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is episode number 305 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I did something that I haven't done in a long time that we've talked about a lot on this show, that listeners might be familiar with. I'm back on the CGM train.

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you are? 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I haven't worn one. It's been a while. I go through periods, like, I put one on and I wear it for a while and then I take a breather. It's always really exciting to see where you are with everything with that. I'm curious because you said you wore one for months and months, right?

Cynthia Thurlow: I did for about 18 months and then I took a break. I felt like, especially with me doing a lot of travel, to me, it's just kind of one extra step to have to take. I do have a NutriSense CGM or a Freestyle Libre connected with NutriSense upstairs that I should put on at some point. But I've got, two trips in February and two in April, back-to-back, so I will definitely avoid having it on at that time.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it is because I don't want to dissuade people if they're traveling that they can't wear it. It is something were moving around and hustling and sleeping and then going out, it's a thing. For listeners who are not familiar, it's a continuous glucose monitor and you put it onto your arm and it constantly measures, actually, your interstitial fluid to measure your blood sugar levels 24/7. But my question for you was, in those 18 months did you see any significant changes? Did you make dietary or lifestyle or fasting changes to address your blood sugar levels or what was your experience like?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it really validated the way that I eat and certainly for me it was insightful. There were certain types of carbohydrates, like plantains, I think I've talked about it on the podcast before. It doesn't matter how I consume them. They really spiked my blood sugar quite significantly. The other thing that I have really started paying attention to is just the stress of travel. I live in a city now where there are very few direct flights, so there's always a changeover either in Denver or Chicago or Atlanta. If anyone's traveled in those big airports, I think I chronicled that I sprinted in the Chicago airport to make my LA connection, that was about a mile and a quarter, and I kept saying, I don't know how people who are not healthy are able to do that. I would have missed my flight. To me, knowing the net impact of that stress, because with cortisol going up, blood sugar goes up in response to that.

To me, it's like, now I know what I need to be doing. It just validated good behavior. I haven't changed my diet all that much. I'm still very protein-centric, definitely cycle my carbohydrates. I do notice the net impact on my blood sugar and certainly my Oura Ring scores if I deviate from what I normally do. I'll give everyone an example although I'm not wearing a CGM right now, over the weekend, I just felt like having a clean brownie. So, I made brownies. Typically, if I'm going to do that, I don't do it at 8:00 or 09:00 o'clock at night and so what's interesting to me is how badly I felt after eating said brownies, even though I'd had a good dinner, like a good substantial dinner. I was telling my husband, I just think my body is less comfortable with me consuming things that are really sugary even if that's very sporadic, but for me that just reinforces good habits. I'm like, next time I definitely won't do that. I felt like the whole next day, like yesterday, I really didn't feel good. I think it was just the amount of sugar I consumed, which is not my normal. Yeah, I have one more CGM to use and I'm kind of holding off. I have a trip upcoming to London and then one to Denver, and I'll probably do it in March, which is in between all my trips.

Melanie Avalon: Very cool. For listeners, if they would like to get their own CGM, they can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST and that will get them a discount. But speaking to your story, I remember I was wearing a CGM once and I had something sugary. It scared me what I saw on my CGM. It's haunted me with PTSD. Ever since that time, I've been like, "Oh, okay." [laughs] This is what that is doing. And that's what I think the CGM can be so helpful because it literally is a mirror showing you what's actually happening. But I do want to clarify, I think people might be surprised, I eat, it's not ridiculously high carb. It is by, I think, low-carb keto world, paleo world standards. I eat a ton of fruit carbs, like pounds and pounds of fruit. It's really exciting because I watch my CGM and I do really well with that.

My blood sugar does not spike that high and it goes down pretty soon thereafter, which is, I don't know. It's interesting though because I can consume that really high amount of carbs from fruit and be fine, but comparing it to when I had a more processed form, I don't know how it actually compared in grams of carbs, but the spike was so different. So, it's really, really interesting to see. I'm also curious of your thoughts on something. I'm interviewing Ben Azadi next week, which I know, he's a mutual friend of ours. That's actually something really funny. I knew of him, and I knew him through you, and I knew you are friends with him and my publicist independently booked him for me. He connected us. We already knew who each other was. It was just really funny. I was like, "Oh, you're Cynthia's friend?"

But it was interesting. A big question I want to ask him is and this is something that I've seen a lot of people talk about in the fasting community. So, he talks about how he considers coffee or tea breaking a fast if it raises your blood sugar. He wants you to test your blood sugar, and if the coffee or tea raises your blood sugar, he considers that breaking the fast. My question about that, this is what I want to ask him and I'm curious of your thoughts. I don't see why raising your blood sugar from coffee or tea compared to, say cortisol, like, your experience or exercise, why would we qualify one as breaking the fast and not the other? I mean, I understand that it's coffee and tea, but presumably the mechanism would be similar. Do you think you break your fast if your blood sugar goes high?

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it depends on so many different variables. I'm a little more gray in this area. I think that as an example if someone is not sleeping well and they just keep throwing more gasoline on the fire, they've got really intense exercise, they're fasting, they're drinking a lot of coffee because their adrenals are completely tanked or they're really stressed, in that situation I think that the resultant rise in cortisol and rise in blood sugar and compensatory secretion of insulin is a mechanism related to stress. I think this is when I encourage people if they feel poorly. Like, as example, if you're fasting and you drink a cup of coffee or you drink bitter tea and you don't feel good, you really should with a degree of caffeine that's in both of those, it should give you a little bit of energy boost.

But for some people that feel really poorly understanding that it's this lumping together of multiple stressors all at once, like it could be the mold and the coffee, it could be the fact that you're fasting, it could be that you didn't sleep well, it could be that you worked out really hard and so, I prefer to look at it just from the concept and the mechanism of really thinking about each one of these things in and of themselves are a form of hormesis and are you doing too much? Again, this is when a CGM can be helpful. To me, it's very different, like having an intense amount of physical activity versus consuming something that potentially has the ability to secrete some insulin.

I think that I find for most individuals when they're concerned about these things, I generally encourage them to lean into it. If you think you probably are breaking your fast because your body just is not well adapted to be doing those types of stressors and you very likely are. I don't think, per se, that coffee in and of itself, in an otherwise well-adjusted, well-slept, not over-exercising, not over-fasting person, I don't think, per se, that's breaking the fast. I'm hoping that I made that really clear. I think that many of us in the health and wellness space have differing opinions on some of these things. And it's interesting, I was just on Gundry's podcast this past week and we were talking about some of the nuances of does this break my fast? Does this not break my fast? I think what it really comes down to is are you metabolically healthy? Are you at your ideal body weight? If you're not those two things, then you probably need to be more conscientious about what you're consuming and when you're consuming it. For most other people, they have a little bit of play with what they're consuming and when they're consuming it. Did that help?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, no that really did. And I think a lot of it is just semantics and a paradigm around-- it's more like esoteric in a way. I guess the way I would phrase it is I wouldn't say that that's breaking the fast. I would say that it's not conducive to an easy fast. It's not conducive to making fasting easy for you or giving you the benefits that you want, but I wouldn't consider it actually breaking the fast. So, how was being on Gundry's podcast?

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny. So, sometimes when you're on some of these bigger podcasts, they'll send questions ahead of time. And obviously, Dr. Gundry has been doing this for a long time. Sometimes smaller podcasts will do that because they just want the validation that they're asking questions you're comfortable with. I always say, like, I'm pretty comfortable with anything. There's nothing you're going to ask me that I'm going to feel unprepared for. Although it was interesting to see his kind of thought process and he really has a very thoughtful way of interacting with his guests, and it was really, really enjoyable. I think because we both come from these cardiology backgrounds, he was a surgeon, I worked in cardiology as an NP, and we have this mutual love for everything related to the heart. So, it was a really incredible experience. He was very gracious, very nice, very smart as you and I both know.

I love that we could talk about something that we both really fervently believe. By this, I'm talking about mitochondrial health, metabolic flexibility, intermittent fasting. We could talk about it and talk about it in a way that was very thoughtful. It was interesting. He had posted on Instagram not all that long ago, something around the fear-mongering about fasting and women. It's interesting to see there're some very polarizing opinions about this. It was just nice to have a conversation where it was very evident and clinically based. Like, this is my clinical experience, this is based on my research, this is based on your research, the things that we've read and did it in a way that made the information super accessible. So, it was really awesome. I always say when I had the opportunity to connect with interesting people it's always a blessing.

Melanie Avalon: That's amazing. You said he did send questions ahead of time.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, he didn't and what's interesting is most people don't ask me about stem cells and telomeres and so I was prepared to answer lots of questions. We didn't end up going down that path. I appreciated that there were very thoughtful questions and not like the normal, how do we say this, garden variety questions that I think most people ask, sometimes it's nice to deviate from what's expected.

Melanie Avalon: That's very exciting. Do you send questions to your guests?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not. I always say I keep it. I always have several pages of notes, and I love that this is a Monday where I didn't have any of my own podcasts to record because my kids are off from school. From my perspective, I like being prepared. I like the guests knowing that I'm prepared, but I always allow the conversation to be very organic. If I think that someone has a lot that will resonate with listeners, I always say this is the first of two or we're definitely bringing this guest back because there's just so much to talk about and your guests know and your listeners know that you are super uber prepared.

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting to think about, I was just thinking about why do I send the questions to the guests. Because honestly, I don't send it to them so that they will-- I think I send it to them so they will know-- I guess, I think it's about me honestly. I send it to them so they'll know that I read their book. [laughs] You know that I'm like taking the interview seriously.

Cynthia Thurlow: People really appreciate that. In fact, I'm trying to think about some of the more high-profile people I've interviewed in the last couple of months and Gabor Maté in particular was very appreciative that I had read the book, because a lot of those people, like, he's got a New York Times bestseller. I mean, he's just this prolific clinician and he's really changing the narrative for how we view trauma and addiction. I would imagine you get to a point where you got the same questions being asked every single day. At the end of the interview, he actually thanked me and said, thank you for reading my book. It's evident that you've read the book. I know now that I'm an author, I really appreciate it when people read the book and Gundry read the book because he was talking about different things throughout the book. I think it allows both the author and the podcast host to feel like we're in this together. We really want to ensure that there's this mutual admiration and appreciation for your craft and showing you in the best light, which I know you do with your guests as well. It's really an amazing opportunity as Melanie says, "Podcasting is the best form of networking."

Melanie Avalon: One of my favorite guests of all time is still David Sinclair and I did interview him when I was still relatively new to that other show. And I remember when I sent him the prep doc the first time and he actually answered via email and was like, wow, that's a deep dive. I was like, oh my goodness, I was so happy. [laughs] But thank you for the introduction by the way, I did book Dr. Gabor Maté. I'm so, so excited about interviewing him.

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny, I've had a lot of people listen to that podcast, and if our listeners haven't listened to that podcast, it's the most personal podcast I've ever done. But you can't interview someone like that, not having invested in the work in yourself, because trauma and it's just hard stuff to talk about because there's no one out there that hasn't experienced some type of trauma in their life. It's just how we express it inwardly or outwardly. And for me, his book is amazing. It's one of my favorite books I read in the past several years. It's definitely a book like, you have to be ready to do the work, talk to yourself, the other person not to get off on a tangent, but do you know Dr. Nicole LePera?

Melanie Avalon: I do not.

Cynthia Thurlow: She's a holistic psychologist, and I don't know, it's like down a rabbit hole. I heard her on Lewis' podcast. I bought her book. I bought the workbook. I'm now in her healing group. It's just like I tell everyone, I talk about doing the work. I am always doing the work and how important it is to invest in yourself. If you're listening and you may never be in a position where you have the opportunity to connect with some of these people, but their books can be life changing. It can be very reflective. Gabor's book probably took me two or three weeks to get through because it's very heavy. There's a lot in that book that you have to kind of absorb it and okay. It's like I've read that chapter, I can take a break, I go back to it but it's an excellent resource.

Melanie Avalon: Well, I will have to check it out and we'll have to put links to it in the show notes.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely.

Melanie Avalon: Friends, I am so excited to tell you about one of my new favoritest things ever. Okay, so you guys know I eat a lot of cucumbers. I don't think that this is any secret. I find myself throwing away pounds, yes, pounds of cucumber peels, every single night. I felt so awful just throwing it in the trash. It seemed like such a waste. I'd always wanted to try composting aka a sustainable approach to turning food waste into healthy dirt, but it seemed really intimidating and not very practical. It was on the to-do list for quite a while. You can imagine how thrilled I was when a company called Lomi by Pela reached out to me wanting to sponsor the show. Normally I have to think about all the brands that reach out to me. I was an immediate yes. I was so excited. I got my Lomi device, it is incredible. Lomi allows me to turn my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. Lomi is a countertop electric composter that turns scraps to dirt in under 4 hours. By comparison, if you were to compost naturally, it would probably take at the shortest around six to eight weeks and maybe even up to a year. But nope with Lomi, I can literally do it in 4 hours. There is no smell when it runs and it is super quiet. I've been using Lomi for a few months now. It is substantially reducing my waste. I was taking out garbage bags all the time. It's probably cut that down by about 30% to 50%. In fact, I love it so much that I bought another Lomi for my parents for Christmas. Now with my Lomi, I throw out weightless garbage. That means that waste is not going to landfills and producing methane.

Instead, I turn my waste into nutrient-rich dirt that you can actually use to feed your plants. And Lomi is super cool. It has three different settings. It has the Eco Express setting, which is low energy consumption, provides the fastest results, and is good for your food waste. It has the Lomi Approved setting that's 5 to 8 hours. You can actually put in Lomi Approved bioplastics and other compostable commercial goods and packaging that are Lomi Approved. And then there's the Grow mode that's 24 hours, it's low heat with a longer duration and that actually preserves the microorganisms the most to help the soil and promote carbon storage in the soil. I am all about regenerative agriculture, so the fact that we can help put carbon back into the soil is so, so incredible.

Lomi is something I have instantly fallen in love with. If you guys are anything like me, I know you will as well. Turn your food waste into the dirt with the press of a button with Lomi. Use the code IFPODCAST to save $50 at lomi.com/ifpodcast. That's lomi.com/ifpodcast with the promo code IFPODCAST to save $50. We'll put all this information in the show notes.

So, shall we jump into everything for today?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. To start things off, we have a question from Laurie. This is actually kind of funny because I guess Laurie is listening to old episodes still, so she thought Gin was still on the show, and I don't think she realized that Cynthia is on the show, which is funny when you hear this question. So, I'm going to read her question. So, she says, "Hi, Gin, I've listened to more than a dozen episodes of Intermittent Fasting Stories over the past week in preparation for joining the IF train. You and your interviewees have motivated and inspired me. I am 100% in." For listeners who are not familiar, Intermittent Fasting Stories is Gin's other podcast where she interviews people who do intermittent fasting. If that is of interest to you, definitely check that show out. She says "I have only 20 pounds to lose and I'm very much looking forward to shedding unwanted pounds as I'm 61, and after 50 like so many others, the weight just creeped up. It is the health benefits I'm looking forward to, more stamina and energy, brain clarity, better sleep, and natural cravings for more nutritious food."

"I was introduced to IF in an episode of the Megyn Kelly Show Podcast, where she interviewed Cynthia Thurlow. I tried my first experience with IF about 18 months ago and was successful. So, Laurie, Cynthia Thurlow is now the host of the show. She says, "After the first challenge of deciding I didn't need cream in my coffee ha-ha, I was a believer in the IF methodology and the science behind it. Of course, after listening to many of your episodes, which go much deeper than the one episode on Megyn Kelly. I already know what I could have done better for better results and will be joining your groups for support." I do have a question/concern though and hopefully you can direct me to a specific episode of yours to help this concern of mine. So far, I haven't heard any topics of discussion on your podcast from people who consider themselves, "Foodies, who are able to square their love of entertaining, cooking, coffee dates, lunches, etc., because I have some concerns that this very thing that gives me so much joy in life, preparation of food, eating as part of my entertainment with people and serving people my delicious creations might fall away like they've described as their cravings for flavored coffees and salty snacks."

So, she's saying might fall away as their other cravings have fallen away. "Is there a happy medium?" Thank you for all you are doing for a huge population of women who have tried everything else, best, Laurie. I love this question. We actually haven't received the nuance of this specific question before, so I'm very curious. What are your thoughts on this Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Laurie, thanks for your question and I'm glad that you were introduced to fasting during my podcast with Megyn Kelly, which we'll link up in the show notes as well. I think that any strategy that we are using to improve our quality of life needs to be something that's sustainable. So, when someone that is a foodie and I define foodie in different ways, sometimes people that are foodies just like really good food, but it sounds like Laurie enjoys the whole socialization piece, the cooking, the prepping, the gathering together around food. I don't think it's an all-or-nothing phenomenon. I do think that you can intermittent fast and also enjoy those things in your lifestyle. I think it has to be a reframe in terms of, if you choose to go, like to have a coffee date or go out to lunch with a girlfriend, or maybe you break your fast earlier or later.

Maybe if you have a big party on a Saturday night, maybe you fast longer on Sunday. I mean, there're a lot of different ways to work around that. The other thing is, as a menopausal woman and wanting to lose about 20 pounds, it's not just fasting that's going to help get you there. There are other things. We know that women, especially in the second half of their lives, we have less muscle mass, which also impacts insulin sensitivity. So, in most of my menopausal patients and clients, I'm really encouraging them to strength train, make sure they're sleep styled in. If HRT or hormone replacement therapy is appropriate for you, estrogen in particular is an insulin-sensitizing hormone, to really think about that in conjunction with intermittent fasting. But I don't think it's all or nothing. I think you can enjoy food and intermittent fast. In fact I'm married to a foodie and by being married to him, I've kind of been like a quasi-foodie for the last 20 years.

And he navigates really beautifully. I think it's always with the context in the lens of I moderate what I enjoy eating and I just adjust my fasting and feeding windows around my lifestyle. If I go on vacation, maybe I'm having three meals a day and a wider feeding window. It is certainly a sustainable strategy, but it's not all-or-nothing. Unfortunately, I think some people feel like you have to be gluten free, dairy free, all these things. It does not have to be that way. But what I do think needs to be entertained is that you're still doing activities that you enjoy. Because if intermittent fasting has left you with the impression that you can't do those things, then we need to find a reframe because you absolutely can enjoy entertaining and going out to dinner and having parties and lunch dates and coffee dates and you can absolutely do that and integrate that into this lifestyle. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with what you said snd it's funny. I'm actually reading a book right now called The Fun Habit: How the Pursuit of Joy and Wonder Can Change Your Life by Mike Rucker, I'm really enjoying it, but I just started it. I'm only like sixth of the way through, but he talks all about the importance of having fun. But in any case, I'm so intrigued by this question for a few different reasons. It's really interesting to me and this is just something to contemplate how? Well, first of all, let me start by saying I agree with Cynthia that I actually think assuming this continues to be something that brings you joy in life, you can maintain it 100%. I'll talk a little bit more about that. Before that, it's interesting to think about how if we have joy for something or something brings us pleasure and then it's an activity that no longer does, for whatever reason, if it's no longer bringing you joy, it's not like it hurts you or that you-- how do I say this? I'm not articulating this well.

I find it interesting that we would have a secondary emotion about something no longer giving us joy and presumably something else does give you joy. It's not like you lost something really. So, for example, with the coffee and snacks, people get sad at the idea of thinking they will lose their cravings for these foods that they once loved. But the thing is, if you no longer crave it anymore, you no longer crave it anymore. Really what you're sad about is the loss of something that you once enjoyed. But the ironic thing is, if it's literally not bringing you joy anymore, I just think it's funny to step back and be like, "Why am I feeling this about this experience?" Because also, presumably if you no longer have a craving for something, you likely are enjoying something else food wise, so you could focus on what you are enjoying rather than what you no longer enjoy.

I think it's important that we are okay with change and realizing that what we find joy in right now can be anything and that's where the joy comes from. It doesn't really matter if it was something we used to have joy in or if we'll have joy in the future. I don't want to say it's not important that things that really meant something to us for a long time if we no longer find joy in them, that that's just something we should brush off. It's an interesting thing to contemplate. Like, I can contemplate this for a long time, especially with the food because presumably when your cravings change, they really do shift to something else. Especially when people do fasting, or adopt a paleo diet, or whole foods diet, or cut out processed foods, they tend to really enjoy new foods that tend to be healthier for them.

Maybe it's like a loss of identity honestly because you identified with liking something before and now you no longer do. Like, for me for example, well I still really love the idea of funfetti cake, but I'm actually not sad not eating it. To get more specific to your question, Laurie, because I feel like that was very esoteric. I actually don't see and Cynthia covered this very well, it's really not that hard, I don't think to maintain all of this. Also, coffee dates. Coffee dates, if you're drinking black coffee, you can still do those the way you've been doing them. I understand like lunches, depending on what your window is. If you have a window, you could make your window something that includes lunches and dinners, or you could change your window around, or you could break it-- open it early like Cynthia was saying. You can make it work around meals.

Most people with intermittent fasting, not everybody, but a lot, do have an eating window that covers the evening in some capacity. That's when the majority of entertaining-type stuff, especially parties often happen. So, then there's no issue there. You can still keep doing all of that. It's really interesting too, even on the foodie side of things. I eat so plain as people know when I go to restaurants, I just get like completely plain steak or completely plain fish and plain vegetables. But what's funny is, I think I'm not a foodie just because I don't fit the definition, because I don't engage in the way meals are prepared when they often have a lot of ingredients that I personally wouldn't consume, but from all appearances, I probably look like a foodie.

I hardcore research the restaurants not to see if they have something I can eat, more because I'm curious about the experience in the actual meals and the food that they have. I get really into it. I get really into multi courses. I'm all about it. It's funny because I was with a friend and he was saying that-- we're picking out a restaurant to go to and he was saying well-- he commented on how I was such a foodie. I was like, well, I'm really not because I literally eat the exact same thing at every restaurant I go to pretty much. But I am very much into the experience of it, which is what I think Laurie is getting at here. The point of all of that meandering long answer was, you can definitely maintain it. Although in the end, it seems like your concern isn't even if you could, your concern is that you're going to lose that desire. I don't see any reason that you would lose that desire if that's something that is bringing you joy.

People lose the desire often with the cravings with intermittent fasting, because it's literally changing how their body interprets food and processes food because they're no longer eating. It's putting people more in touch with what their body needs and their cravings tend to naturally change to something less processed. But the joy of entertaining and cooking and being with others and all of that, I don't see how fasting would change that. If anything, I think it might enhance it. Actually. I really do think it might enhance it because it's enhanced it for me, because the meal experience is more concentrated to like this sacred time window where I really experience it more because I'm not eating 24/7. Have you found that Cynthia that you enjoy meals more now?

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I mean I'm at a different stage of life, so I would say the past nearly three years when we had a whole year when the boys were home and not in school, and we had four different people eating at four different times because of work schedules, book writing schedules, school schedules. I definitely really savor my meal time especially when I'm not eating by myself, when I'm with my family that's a very sacred time on the weekend when we're all together, all eating at the same time. I think it just makes you more appreciative of the process of eating. It's not this mechanical, it's breakfast time so I eat breakfast. It's lunchtime, so I eat. I'm much more attuned to what my body needs at that given point in time, as opposed to when I was probably eating three meals a day and snacks and many meals because that's what I was telling my patients. It just felt like I was constantly eating whereas now it's a much more thoughtful way to honor my body.

Melanie Avalon: I think the take-home message, Laurie, based on all of that is that, yes, your experience with eating and food might change, but I think if your underlying joy for these activities is still there in being a foodie, I don't think that's going to change. You can definitely pair it with intermittent fasting. So, any other thoughts for that one?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I appreciate that she's putting so much thought behind it, but it's really that reframe of not what you can't have, but what you can have and then adopting, if you're having a party at your home, maybe you're going to have a wider feeding window and maybe you're going to have a shorter feeding window the following day. I think there are a lot of different ways to navigate fasting and having a lifestyle that embraces a lot of entertaining.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, definitely. Now we still have some great questions from the AMAs that we asked for. We actually got two questions related to bioidentical hormones. So, I'm going to read those. So, Tracy sent, "Have you done an episode on bioidentical hormone replacement therapy? And if not, would you address it? And Stephanie said, I'm on progesterone only HRT, can you use estrogen even if you still have a period? Will it cause weight gain?" I will just say this is Cynthia's forte. [laughs]

Cynthia Thurlow: Let me be sure, I definitely told Melanie we needed to definitely answer these questions. So, Tracy, no, we have not done a dedicated bioidentical hormone episode, but I think we should definitely do one. Maybe we'll bring in one of my favorite colleagues to bolster that, a GYN friend, so that they can provide additional input. And then Stephanie said, I'm on progesterone only and let me be clear, a lot of women in perimenopause, the 10 to 15 years preceding menopause, and yes if the average age is 51, late 30s, you're there. One of the first hormonal shifts that starts to happen is that our ovaries stop producing as much progesterone. It's not at all uncommon to take just progesterone and still be in perimenopause. I do see several women who are also on estrogen, although interestingly enough and I learned this while writing my book that in perimenopause, women can have wild fluctuations in estrogen.

It's because of these fluctuations in progesterone we're making less progesterone, our ovaries, we're starting this early ovarian failure. Our adrenal glands are trying to pick up the slack with progesterone. Well, we get this relative estrogen dominance internally, but we can also have higher levels of estrogen because of exogenous exposure. So, it can be multiple things. But Dr. Lara Briden does a particularly great explanation of this in the Hormone Repair Manual and we'll link up the podcast I did with her, but you see these wild fluctuations in estradiol throughout perimenopause right before menopause when those estrogen levels are starting to falter. It's interesting because I've seen several women who've been on estradiol patches or they've been on different types of testosterone therapy or other types of therapies in perimenopause, but typically if you have a uterus and you are in menopause, you should be on both estrogen and progesterone to protect the lining of the uterus.

I know this question will probably come up, so I'm just going to address it. But testosterone therapy, interestingly enough, there's no FDA-approved testosterone option for women. You will see women using pellets. I am not a fan of pellets. They are wildly unpredictable. I've seen a lot of women that have had a lot of problems because they've been on pellets. Of course, there's always an exception. Every time we do a post about pellets, we get 10 people who tell us they have a great experience. They're the minority. I also did a podcast with Dr. Shawn Tassone talking specifically about pellets, which we'll also link up, but to reassure women that you can actually have testosterone replacement in perimenopause and menopause, but you want to fix the upstream issue. Interestingly enough, stress has a large impact on our libido and also our testosterone levels as well as insulin resistance. So, you want to make sure both of those are addressed before you consider testosterone cream.

Some people even prescribe subcutaneous testosterone administration, but you absolutely positively want to work with a practitioner who's familiar with all of your options and there's not just one size fits all, someone who does the testing. So, not just blood testing, but also the Dutch, which I use in my practice and I'm a huge proponent of, because it gives you information like how well your body breaks down and detoxifies estrogen. So, yes, you can just be on progesterone. More often than not, you're probably in perimenopause, which it sounds like Stephanie is, and then estrogen sometimes is added as people are getting closer to menopause. You don't have to just be in menopause to be getting bioidentical hormones and we could have a whole episode just on that, but I'll just leave it at that. We'll give you guys some resources and I will work with Melanie to find an appropriate person to bring on that is a GYN that will be able to answer all the things about HRT and bioidentical HRT.

Melanie Avalon: I really have nothing to add.

Cynthia Thurlow: And that's totally okay.

Melanie Avalon: [laughs] Historically, for so long, people ask me questions all the time and I'm like, I don't know. [laughs] This is not my area of expertise.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's totally okay. If we have a podcast episode like that, I'm happy to tell everyone what I've done, what I haven't done, what's worked, what has not worked, what I would recommend, what I would not recommend. I think most women have to go through several practitioners to get the care they want in middle age. I don't think it's a one size fits all, unfortunately.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I'm just happy that there are so many changes happening, I think, progressively in the medical system with all of this because especially with the role of women in the medical system and how there's not really been that much attention to them and studies and things like that. So, I will not go on that soapbox tangent.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting. There's a really good book if you're interested in learning more about the Women's Health Initiative and what has come out of that. We have a whole generation of clinicians and patients who are fearful to prescribe and take hormones. There's a really excellent resource called Why Estrogen Matters by Drs. Avrum Bluming and Carol Tavris, he is an oncologist, she is a researcher. They're an amazing, amazing duo and I had them on the podcast last year and we really unpacked the Women's Health Initiative. So that's a really good starting point. Why Estrogen Matters is a really great book to get you up to speed and if you want to spend 3 hours listening to a podcast, you can listen to Peter Attia's podcast with them. That's how I got acquainted with their work. My podcast with them, I think, is under an hour and 15 minutes. If you want a shorter one, [laughs] there's definitely my podcast with them but that's a really great resource.

Melanie Avalon: Well, you had me at Peter Attia, so sign me up. Okay, so we have a really fun question next.

Cynthia Thurlow: So, our next question is from Stacy. Subject is AMA question, "Does THC inhibit weight loss while intermittent fasting? Before Melanie answers, Melanie and I have been talking about the research around THC and it's really been very interesting. So, Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: It's really interesting because there're a lot of studies on both CBD and THC. I think when people think THC, they associate it with CBD especially with all of the CBD oils on the market because there are not THC oils on the market, and that's because of THC-- So, when you're engaging in something like cannabis or hemp and like CBD oil from that, if there's any THC in it as well, the THC is actually the part of cannabis that has the psychoactive properties to it. So, when people get CBD oils, they usually won't have THC or they'll have very minimal amounts. I know her question was specifically about THC, but for all intents and purposes, I researched both THC and CBD. It's really interesting because the studies are all over the board. So, for CBD specifically, some studies have found no effects, some have found that CBD can actually decrease body weight, others have found that CBD can actually increase body weight.

What's really interesting is one of the studies that I was looking at was proposing that maybe CBD was increasing body weight, but THC was counter to that. Another study I found was basically saying the opposite that THC might be responsible for the weight gain. Basically, it's really hard to say something either way and also it might have to do with the patient population. Sometimes they'll do studies in patients with weight loss issues or anorexia or something like that, and they will see how it affects weight gain or weight loss. That's important information to know, but it might not necessarily apply to the general public. It's really hard to say something either way. I know her question is actually about THC in relation to fasting. What I would say to that is that if it's having that effect either way, I don't know that the effect would be that strong that you wouldn't lose weight while fasting. But I think it's going to be very, very individual. What did you find in your research, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I think you did a really nice job explaining that. It's interesting because the studies I was looking at were comparing short versus long-term use. In individuals that have cancer and we call it cachexia, but they're very very thin and very frail individuals with HIV and AIDS that it can be helpful for appetite stimulation iin low-weight individuals. What I found from my research was that individuals that are at a healthier, "Normal weight" that's dependent on many many variables, but they are less likely to gain weight while utilizing cannabis. From my perspective, I didn't say anything that was specific to inhibition of weight loss while fasting, but more often than not, it's in my clinical experience, so again, this is different, that people who are still smoking a lot of marijuana or using CBD-type products are just more prone to snacking and eating outside of a feeding window.

I think it's highly individual and based on the research that I looked at, the utilization of these types of substances can be beneficial for people who are underweight, if they want to gain weight, but is really limited to the population I looked at in the research was cancer patients, chronically ill people that are underweight, and those that have HIV and AIDS, where they get this kind of starvation cachexia syndromes where their bodies are chronically malnourished. They're having trouble utilizing the food that they do consume, and then they're on medications that are probably impacting their desire to eat.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and to that point, that reminded me of one of the things I had read, which was pointing out the paradox that users of CBD, I think specifically marijuana, I'd have to find it again, but it was talking about how that's associated with increased appetite and eating more and all of that, but that the users don't tend to weigh more. It's a bit of a paradox, and I think it speaks to that long-term piece of the overall habits. But I think that was the one where it said that maybe THC was responsible for mitigating that, but it's really hard to know. This is a 2021 study, so relatively recent. The title is Cannabinoid Use for Appetite Stimulation and Weight Gain in Cancer Care. I wonder if this was maybe related to what you had read, Cynthia, but like a quote from this, this is really interesting. They said, "Over the past 20 years, six randomized controlled trials have evaluated the impact of cannabinoids on appetite-related outcomes in oncology patients in comparison with the control group or placebo." Based on that literature, cannabinoids do not appear to improve appetite, oral intake, weight, chemosensory function, or appetite-related quality of life. But limitations are small sample sizes, lack of adjustment for compounding variables, difficulties in conducting the trials. Yeah, we need more research for sure. It seems to be all over the place.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and it's interesting, 20 plus years ago there was a drug called Marinol. It's probably still in existence, but it was THC. When I use the term street legal, like, people could prescribe it legally. This is way before the advent of all this legalization of marijuana and their byproducts and it was something that they're really pushing clinicians to use for the same patients I was talking about. The people who've got these wasting syndromes, cancer patients, HIV/AIDS, etc., as being beneficial, but I agree with you and hopefully with the legalization in many parts of the United States that there'll be more research that we'll be able to determine the net impact on many different variables.

Melanie Avalon: I agree and I do want to backtrack a little bit, I'm just thinking more about something I said earlier because I was saying that I thought that even if it was having an effect that you could still lose the weight with the fasting. I do want to emphasize if it's having an hormonal effect on you, I don't think we can overstate the role that hormonal changes can have as being a barrier to weight loss or weight gain. So, that could go either way. For people who are having this in their life, they're just going to have to look at themselves and see how it's affecting them. But I think it definitely could play a factor either way. I feel like this answer is not that helpful. Basically, you have to just figure it out for yourself if it's affecting you that way.

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Melanie Avalon: Now we'll answer another one of our AMA questions. This is a personal one. I'm really excited to answer this one. Nicole wants to know a few people ask this, which is interesting. Katie said, "The two of you are so positive. What would be interesting is to hear some of your biggest pet peeves. Nicole said, "What are your pet peeves?" and then Teresa said, "What is your biggest turn-off?" So, pet peeves and turn-offs?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, I would say my personal pet peeve that drives me absolutely crazy are wet socks. In my house, we don't wear shoes. Every morning when my kids go off to school, I open up all their plantation shutters and I go through rooms and gather laundry and things like that and my kids are absolute water like hogs. There's water everywhere, it's on the floor, it's never on the bathmat and so If I have socks on and I walk into their bathroom and my socks get wet, there's something about wet socks that makes me crazy, and so I have to then change my socks. I would say, just from a personal perspective, that's my own quirky thing, but I would say things that bother me a lot like you travel, I travel, people that chew their gum really loudly and pop it in public and individuals talk on their cell phones as if no one is around in an enclosed space. I'm not talking about, like, if you're outside. I'm talking about you're in an enclosed environment and you are pretending as if no one is around you and you're speaking at full volume and yelling, and it's not a brief conversation, it's an extensive one. Those are probably my three that bother me the most. I generally with the exception of the socks, I just have to pray that someone walks away from me. It's like please go somewhere else and chew your gum and talk loudly into your cell phone. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: That's so funny. I'm having flashbacks too. Remember when people first started wearing Bluetooth headsets? Like earpods and they weren't a thing yet, so people would be like talking to themselves out loud. I just remember that first started happening and I was like, "What are they doing?" I realized it was the earpods. Yes, so I have quite a few. Okay, when people-- this one kills me. When you send a text to somebody that has multiple questions and then they only answer the last question, they don't address the entire text, drives me up the wall. Did you not read the whole text? There are multiple questions in there. People who can't really plan, although it can work if I can plan for us, but I need plans. People who really wear being busy like a badge of honor, that's their thing in life. That really bothers me. That probably bothers me too much because it bothers me to the point where I don't like to tell people I'm busy as the reason because I have this own concern around it. Last night, I was having a phone call or-- I was texting a friend and she was trying to schedule a time to catch up and I was so busy, I didn't want to tell her I was busy because I didn't want her to think I was just saying I was busy to wear busy like a badge of honor. Then finally I had to tell her, I was like, "Listen, it's just because I'm busy, I'm so sorry." So, that one gets to me.

Oh, this one, because growing up, my mom, she has a lot of autoimmune conditions and she would always say that it's in her genes, like, my grandmother had it. It's just the way it is. I think when people-- and I don't like to ascribe pet peeve to it because I don't want to-- When people say this, I really feel for them and I understand that they do feel like it's in their genes certain health conditions and that's their destiny and that makes me really sad, and I want to empower people to feel differently. I think when people blame genetics, I guess the pet peeve of it would come in when people are living a lifestyle that is not conducive to a healthy state, and then they just blame their health conditions on genetics, that bothers me. Typos, typos really, really get to me.

Cynthia Thurlow: Melanie has a fastidious editing like I, so when I do my next book, Melanie, I'm going to have you help me make sure there's nothing that should be edited.

Melanie Avalon: I feel so bad, if I'm ever hiring which, by the way, I really want to get an intern. I'm probably going to post-- need to post on one of those job-hiring sites. I've got to get an intern. Just so you know though, if anybody applies for an internship with me and there's a typo in your application no. [Laughs] Just because if that's your first impression, I don't see any excuse to have a typo. If it's something that you're really putting time into, after you get the job, that's different. If it's like your first impression or if somebody's hitting on me and sends a text with a typo, I'm like, "Nope, nope." And then just in general, probably my biggest pet peeve of all pet peeves is people getting offended by things. I really just don't think there's any reason-- Yes, people get offended but let me clarify getting offended and blaming other people for feeling offended.

My biggest thing is that if you're offended, there's something in you that's offended. Don't blame other people. I don't even care if it's something that is straight-up wrong that somebody else did. That feeling of being offended is something I think-- This is just my opinion, but I think it's a fear or anxiety or something that you're uncomfortable with in you. If anything, those actions that people do are just providing a mirror or a spotlight to figure out what bothers you and your psyche. I just can't handle today's culture of blaming everybody for everything. Just personal responsibility [laughs] is what I'm all about.

Yeah, the only reason I didn't want to answer this question and I don't know if this is true, but how you read these things about psychology and they stick with you? I read at one point that when you talk negatively-- This actually is good to know, when you talk negatively about somebody else, people ascribe that whatever you're saying and those negative characteristics subconsciously to you. So, ever since I read that, I was like, "Oh, I should not talk negatively about people because people might subconsciously ascribe that to me, which is a selfish reason to not want to do that. It's nice because it kind of curtails talking negatively about people as well." So, hopefully, people do not ascribe those attributes to us.

Cynthia Thurlow: No, but I think it's just a lot of what bothers me in general beyond the wet socks, which obviously is my own weird-- and I've been that way my whole life, has a lot to do with just being courteous of one another as a society just being thoughtful. The concept of treat others as you would like to be treated and I think in many ways we're so disconnected from one another that we don't even perceive the behavior that we're embracing wherever we are. I try to be a very thoughtful person. My pet peeves are definitely things where I'm just like that's that person is not being thoughtful of people around them, they're just off in their own little-- We used to call it our Own Private Idaho, that movie from many years ago when I was back in Maryland, there were a couple of people that would just say they were off in their Own Private Idaho, I was like, "Yes, they are." Not even aware. But I couldn't agree with you more. We choose to be positive, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. Quick plug, everybody now go buy-- If any of these interests you, go buy The Science of Positivity by Loretta Breuning. It is fascinating. It's a lot about cynicism and how we naturally engage in cynicism to like protect ourselves or it's a really, really, really good book and how you can actually be more positive. So, okie dokie. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go.

So, if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the podcast, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and they can submit questions there. The show notes for today's show where we will put links to everything that we talked about. I know we talked about quite a few studies, so we will put those in the show notes. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode305 and then you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all things. Anything from you, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I look forward to our next episode where we can dive into the rest of these listeners' questions along with our regular questions.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 12

Episode 304: AMA Part 5, Thirst, Dehydration, Sleep Disturbances, Cholesterol, Worst Jobs Ever, Favorite Meals, Bad Diets, Internet Trolls, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For Fasting Or Low-Carb Diets Electrolytes Are Key For Relieving Hunger, Cramps, Headaches, Tiredness, And Dizziness. With No Sugar, Artificial Ingredients, Coloring, And Only 2 Grams Of Carbs Per Packet, Try LMNT For Complete And Total Hydration. For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - LMNT: For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! Learn All About Electrolytes In Episode 237 - Our Interview With Robb Wolf!

4:10 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

13:15 - Listener Q&A: Celia - New to keto and IF(6 months in) and I am SOOOO thirsty ALL NIGHT LONG! Up 3 & 4 times, drinking LMNT, and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. HELLLPPPPPPP

Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation

24:45 - BEAUTY AND THE BROTH: Go To melanieavalon.com/broth To Get 15% Off Any Order With The Code MelanieAvalon!

27:00 - Listener Q&A: Lynn - Is high cholesterol bloodwork common with intermittent fasting?

INSIDE TRACKER: Go To insidetracker.com/melanie And Use The Coupon Code MELANIE25 For 25% Off All Tests Sitewide!

Ep. 196 – Alternative Tools to Optimize Your Health

Ep. 128 – Cholesterol Obsession: Why It’s the Intellectual Property of the Animal Kingdom with Dave Feldman

36:15 - Listener Q&A: Kim - Hi! Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a 3-4 hour eating window or fasting shorter but having 2 meals, no snacks in a longer eating window, say a 6-7 hour eating window? 53year old female, post menopause, exercises daily with walking and lifting, tries to eat real Whole Foods and wants to lose another 5-10 pounds then enter maintenance. Thanks so much! Love your podcasts and the fantastic info you both share

39:45 - Listener Q&A: Laura - What’s the worst job that you have had? If you weren’t doing what you are what would you be doing?

47:45 - Listener Q&A: Kimberly - What is your favorite dinner?

53:45 - ATHLETIC GREENS: Get A FREE 1 Year Supply Of Immune-Supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE Travel Packs With Your First Purchase At athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast.

55:10 - Listener Q&A: Mary Jane - What are some health related things you’ve tried that you really didn’t like or had bad side effects to?

1:00:00 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - What’s one beauty or health product/fad that didn’t work for you? 

Go to melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON for an exclusive discount.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I’m Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. I’m here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it’s that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends. I'm about to tell you how to get my favorite electrolytes, including clean fast-friendly electrolytes for free. Yes, for free. I talk about a lot of products on these shows. When it comes to supporting fasting and/or the ketogenic diet, there is a supplement which is a game changer. I cannot tell you how many times I get feedback from my audience about how this was the key to addressing issues that people often experience with keto or fasting.

It is so, so important to replenish electrolytes if you want to have energy and an active lifestyle. A lot of people experience the keto flu or issues while fasting, like headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue, sleeplessness. These are all common symptoms of electrolyte deficiency. You might think you’re not doing well with fasting or that the keto diet isn’t for you, when really, you just need electrolytes. Electrolytes facilitate hundreds of functions in the body, including the conduction of nerve impulses, hormonal regulation, nutrient absorption, and fluid balance. If you’d like to learn all about the science of electrolytes and get answers to commonly asked questions, definitely check out the interview I did with my hero, Robb Wolf, on this show. He’s also one of the co-founders of LMNT.

There have been moments in my life where I needed electrolytes and drinking some LMNT took me from a state of fatigue to feeling like my body was actually alive. Of course, it can be hard to find electrolytes, which are clean and good to put in your body. That’s why I adore LMNT.

LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything you need and nothing you don’t. That’s a science-backed electrolyte ratio, 1000 mg of sodium, 200 mg of potassium, and 60 mg of magnesium with none of the junk. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients, no gluten, no fillers, no BS, because we don't have time for that. You guys know I’m obsessed with purity and quality of supplements. LMNT is the electrolyte supplement that I recommend. When you sweat, the primary electrolyte lost is sodium. When sodium is not replaced, a common side effect is muscle cramps and fatigue. LMNT is used by everyone, including NBA, NFL, and NHL players, Olympic athletes, Navy SEALS, and of course, everyday moms and dads, those practicing intermittent fasting, the keto or paleo diet, and exercise enthusiasts.

Right now, LMNT has a fantastic offer for our audience. You can get a free sample pack with any purchase. That’s eight single-serving packets of eight different flavors for free with any LMNT order. Yes, the raw unfavored version is clean fast friendly. This is a great way to try all eight flavors or share LMNT with a salty friend. Get yours at drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast. That’s D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dotcom/ifpodcast. Try it totally risk-free. If you don’t like it, share it with a salty friend and they will give you your money back, no questions asked. You literally have nothing to lose. We’ll put all this information in the show notes.

One more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain. It’s not your food and it’s not fasting. It’s actually our skincare and makeup. So, as it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disruptors, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight.

Basically, when we’re using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That’s because, ladies, when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking. And the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later, maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That’s why it’s up to us to choose brands that are changing this. 

The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have Countertime for anti-aging, Countermatch for normal skin, Countercontrol for acne and oily prone, and Counterstart for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life. And their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted the Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more.

You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my Clean Beauty email list. That’s at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list, so definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well.

And lastly, if you’re thinking of making Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a Band of Beauty member. It’s sort of like Amazon Prime for Clean Beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally, completely worth it. So, again, to shop with us, go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20, to get 20% off your first order. And we’ll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now back to the show.

Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 304 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hey, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. I'm excited to ask you. This actually airs the day before Valentine's Day. How do you feel about Valentine's Day? 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] I'm laughing because my team just sent me a message and said, "How do you want us to address Valentine's Day on social media?", which I thought was humorous. I think it's one of those contrived holidays that, for a lot of people, makes them feel badly about themselves. Obviously, I've been married for almost 20 years. I've been with my husband for almost 21 years. So, from my perspective, irrespective of where I was in life stage throughout my lifetime, I always spent it with people that I loved. And so, whether it was girlfriends getting together or whether it was who I was dating or my husband, I think Valentine's Day is one of those days that feels very contrived, and it's far more important how you treat your loved ones for the other 364 days out of the year. I don't put a lot of emphasis on it. 

It was always a fun thing to do with the kids when they were younger. Maybe we got them something fun, or maybe we had like a Valentine's Day themed breakfast or dinner. I mean, something that was fun. I don't put a lot of effort, not that I don't put an effort, but it's not something that to me is representative of a whole lot of anything other than a contrived holiday. I don't know if you feel similarly or are you all in on Valentine's Day and go bananas?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I have a question. When you were like in elementary school-- I'm just wondering how long they've been doing, because when I was in elementary school, would you guys do the Valentines that you would give to everybody?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: [chuckles] I was just reflecting on that recently because it's really a little bit traumatic for kids, I think, because I don't know, at least for me, when I was giving the Valentine, you get the cards with all the different ones, and you give your favorite cards to your favorite people. The guy you like, you give the one that's trying to send a secret message to him. I don't know, it's just like a lot. [laughs] It's like a lot for little kids, and then there's candy on top of that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, it's interesting because my kids grew up in the age where you give a card to everyone, which is fine. But to me, as a parent, it was trying to get creative with cards and get your kids to sit down and sign their name and their friend's name. It just became this very large project. And yes, the candy thing. It's like I remember before we'd even gotten to Christmas, the grocery store started putting out Valentine's Day candy. And I was just thinking to myself, processed food industry just has a field day but these kinds of contrived holidays. I'm all about spending time with people you love. And if you can't spend time with people you love, don't make a big deal about it. I don't think anyone should feel badly about Valentine's Day. 

I think when I was in college, I was in a big sorority, and I just remember people felt so left out if they weren't coupled on these holidays. And yet, the way I look at it is that's not what it's about. It's like, how do you treat the people that you love 364 days out of the year? On this one day, maybe you do something special, but it shouldn't put you into debt. It shouldn't stress you out. It shouldn't mean that you have to spend $150 on a super overpriced bunch of roses. I think sometimes people lose sight of what's most important is the point I'm trying to make. 

Melanie Avalon: I find it really interesting because I've never had-- I don't know if I did in high school, I've never really had FOMO about being in a relationship. I just love being single all about it. Valentine's has never really distressed me in any way. It didn't bother me that I didn't have somebody to do it with. It was just like another day. I do remember though it's funny how you'll have certain memories that really stick with you. I remember when I was in college or-- I think I was in college, and I was dating somebody and I thought were dating pretty regularly. I just really casually asked, “What do you want to do for Valentine's Day?” He was like, “Oh, well, should we do something for Valentine's Day?” I was like, “Oh, okay, never mind.” That was not the question to ask. This Valentine's Day actually, I'm doing something. So, I'm excited about it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, for full disclosure, my husband's going to be on a snowboarding trip with his buddies and I'm totally okay with that for a variety of reasons. Admittedly, for our anniversary last year, I was out in LA, doing press. So, [laughs] we talk about these things ahead of time. I think if you're separated from your significant other, that's okay too. You just set aside time to spend time together and do something that you enjoy together as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, the other thing that stresses me out about it is because I was a server for so long and fine dining, so I know what Valentine's Day is like. It's like the craziest day [laughs] for being a server. Like this year, I do want to go to a restaurant on Valentine's Day. But then, I know what's going on in the server's head, so I don't want to go. But then again, well, you can make a lot of money on Valentine's Day as a server.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yep, I remember those days. I used to always say, like New Year's Eve, like any of the big holidays, you don't always get a great meal and everything's just chaotic. But yes, you can definitely do well as a server. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's like the craziest day. So Happy Valentine's Day or Single Awareness Day or whatever you want to call it. Today's episode, we are continuing from all the AMA questions that we got. And last episode, we did all fasting related ones, and we have a few more of those, so we're going to start with those. May or may not take up the whole episode, and if they don't, we will go to some of our other random AMAs that we still have. So, lots of fun stuff. So, to start things off, we have a question from Celia. She says, “I am new to Keto and IF. I'm six months in and I am so thirsty all night long,” and there's a lot of caps with that. She says, “I'm up three and four times drinking LMNT and going to the bathroom and having a hot flash. Help.” Lots of caps with that too. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I'm glad that you read this and not me because I could not have done-- 

Melanie Avalon: Help. [laughs] 

Cynthia Thurlow: [laughs] Well, Celia, a couple of things. First and foremost, when patients tell me that they're up urinating multiple times a night, I have to ask when do you stop drinking water or start/stop drinking liquids because that's very important. Some people have a propensity for an overactive bladder. Drinking or limiting your fluids after 6:00 PM is certainly going to be important. You mentioned hot flashes, so I have to believe you're at least in the perimenopause, menopause realm and I found a really interesting paper that I was discussing with Melanie before we started recording. This is from Reproductive Sciences, Hormonal Changes During Menopause and the Impact on Fluid Regulation. So, the big takeaway for everyone, without me diving deep into this paper, is talking about the net impact of fluid regulation in the body for women as they are transitioning into perimenopause and menopause. 

And so, big takeaway is we are not as good about recognizing when we get thirsty. Sometimes people are not realizing that they're actually dehydrated and by the time they get thirsty, they're really dehydrated. So, they spend all this time catching up. This is actually a byproduct of the loss of estrogen. So, perimenopause is this time where there's dynamic fluctuations in estrogen, sometimes even much higher than they are when we're at peak fertile years. We're losing progesterone, our ovaries are producing less, our adrenals are trying to pick up the slack, and then we have these wild fluctuations in estrogen. And so, we know that estrogen in particular is very important for regulating fluid balance in the body. So, this can directly impact our ability to recognize when we are thirsty and can also impact some of these key mechanisms in the body, like hormones, like the renin-angiotensin, aldosterone system, atrial natriuretic peptide secretion, which all impact regulation in the kidneys and then these fluid responses. 

So, big takeaway is first and foremost, make sure that you're not drinking too much water after 6 o'clock at night. Number two, make sure you're using electrolytes during the day, throughout the day. The other thing that's interesting, and we'll link this study up so people can take a look at it. There's actually a figure here about osmotic regulation in women during different phases of the menstrual cycle and in men. So, it's a superimposition of the men, it's very consistent in terms of where they are. For women, you can actually see that there are changes when they have more estrogen in their bodies versus less. And so, I really think that this speaks to a couple of things both behavioral. Making sure you're hydrating enough during the day period, and then also understanding that there is some hormonal fluctuation with the loss of estrogen that is probably exacerbating this. And like I said, we will tack this along into the show notes that you'll have it available to reference as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Wow, that was so helpful. I learned so much. 

Cynthia Thurlow: There is too much information that is so helpful. The other thing that I just wanted to mention before is there's something called anti-diuretic hormone. And when women are getting up at night to pee or urinate a lot, we call that nocturia. You're getting up at night to pee, so nocturia is urinating at night. You start thinking about, is your anti-diuretic hormone which is what concentrates your urine at night. Is that not working properly? Sometimes that can also be a byproduct of things like sleep apnea. There's a lot that can impact ADH secretion. Just something to consider and a way to think about this is, sometimes ADH secretion gets dysregulated when we drink alcohol, which is why sometimes people will feel like when they're drinking alcohol, they're urinating a lot. It's because you get this dysregulation of this key hormone. It's a couple of different variables that may be at play. 

The last thing I would mention is the hot flashes. That could be blood sugar mediated or that could also be your brain sending an SOS to your ovaries like release some estrogen. So, this is another component. There's a lot of different things that could be going on but be reassured that this is something we have to be very conscientious about. Like, I can tell you that on days I travel and I cannot drink enough water, I am really, really thirsty at night. The other piece of that is I'm always thinking to myself personally, “Is there an insulin issue? Am I becoming insulin resistant? Why am I thirsty?” I think a lot of it has to do with if you're not drinking enough water during the day, your body is trying to play catch up and you start to lose those mechanisms to remind you that you need to drink. That was long. 

Melanie Avalon: No, that was great. It was very, very helpful. Do you find with most of your female patients who are having all these experiences that IF and fasting, what do you normally see? Does it normally help? Make it worse? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think most people that are fasting are just more attuned to their bodies in general. So, I think they start to try to figure out what's contributing to this. Because if this is a change, then what's mitigating it? So, I always say, let's work with the most benign things first. Let's make sure you're not drinking too many fluids after 6 o'clock at night. Let's make sure you're getting plenty of electrolytes throughout the day. Let's make sure you're not insulin resistant because that nocturia piece can be problematic. And then, you kind of work backwards. I would say pick the low-lying fruit first and then work backwards. But I do find most women in particular that are intermittent fasters are leaning into what their body is trying to communicate to them. So, I think they tend to stay on top of these kinds of symptoms. Like, whereas someone else might just say, “Oh, I wake up three or four times a night to sleep.” 

The other thing I would say is, and I want to make sure I emphasize this, if your sleep quality is eroded because you are fasting, or you can't get your fluids in during the day, then you need to make some changes because sleep is foundational to our health. So, if you can't sleep through the night, we have to fix that first. So, if you are new to fasting and you're finding it's really challenging to be able to sleep properly through the night, we need to work on that. That is the number one priority. It could be that maybe you back off and you're just doing a 12- or 13-hour window of digestive rest as a way to make sure we can dial in on the sleep piece, because if you're not sleeping through the night, that's a disqualifier. I always say that's super important and it's interesting. 

I'm getting ready to interview Louisa Nicola. I'm not sure if you're familiar with her work, but she's a brain health researcher. One of the things I want to talk to her about is that interrelationship between poor quality sleep and weight loss resistance because that is such a big, huge problem for so many people. 

Melanie Avalon: Does she have a book? 

Cynthia Thurlow: She does not have a book, but she has one of my favorite, favorite podcasts. So, her podcast is The Neuro Experience. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Very cool. 

Cynthia Thurlow: She's getting her PhD. No book yet, but she has a really great she has great content. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. I think that's a pretty comprehensive answer. Thank you. I'm always really curious about people's electrolytes because she says she's drinking LMNT. I just find it so interesting, the actual sodium and aldosterone system and all of that. I think for some people, it can be like they got to find what works for them to where they're staying hydrated and not fluctuating between releasing water, thirsty, retaining water. A lot of people get in their groove with LMNT and they're good to go, but maybe that might be something to dose around. I don't know if she needs more or less, but I'd be curious, especially when it's coupled with keto and low-carb.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, and I start to think it because she's six months in, like she's beyond she's at a stage where she has a lot of glycogen depletion and a lot of serum sodium loss. That might be exacerbating some things, but I agree with you that this is a degree of experimentation that's going to be important and for many people. I used to be this person when I was rounding on patients, I didn't want to be having to run to the restroom every hour to urinate. I was clinically dehydrated probably 80% of the time I was working in the hospital or in the clinic, and so I was able to weather that when I was younger. But now when I travel, I have to be really diligent. I'm the person that fills up 2 meters worth of water and tries to get that consumed while I'm traveling just to stay hydrated, because it becomes such a big problem. 

Melanie Avalon: What's really interesting for me, just historically with my experience, because I've done bouts of low-carb versus high-carb, and when I was low-carb, that's when I would struggle with dehydration and also needing to urinate more and stuff like that. But what I do now, which is what I've been doing for a long time, which is like a very high-carb approach, but all fruit interestingly, I actually don't have that issue anymore. I always feel pretty hydrated, but I'm an N of one. So, I just think it's really interesting that people can react differently. But if I were to have high carb from like starches, for example, I would retain water. I would have issues with probably actually feeling hydrated. It's just interesting how I react to different carbs and water storage and everything. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Which she describes as having to get up three or four times a night. That's like an active diuresis. That's the technical terminology of your body trying to get rid of excess fluid. You just start to think about the value of the N of one as you stated. And I can tell for me, if I'm carb cycling the days I go low-carb, I know I'm going to urinate more than the days when I'm higher carbohydrate, which mine are never all that high, like maybe a 100 and 125. But cycling from 50 to 125 over a series of days, it's okay for me because I work from home, so I can manage that. But again, for some people it could be the case of Celia, if she's got a job where she can't be getting up every hour to be able to run to the restroom, it may be that she's really pushing the fluids when she gets off of work, or at the latter stage of the day. That could be why she's getting up multiple times a night as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends. One of my favorite foods for gut health, skin cravings, energy, and immunity is definitely bone broth. I and so many of my listeners love bone broth, but it can also be intimidating because it can be hard to find a bone broth that is all natural, organic, free of preservatives, and especially no salt added. Of course, you can always make your own, which I love but that can be of a cumbersome process.

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Melanie Avalon: We have a question from Lynn. “Is high cholesterol blood work common with intermittent fasting?” 

Cynthia Thurlow: I would say no. I think there's a lot of different factors. Melanie, I know that you did a bunch of reading and researching on this in particular, but I think for a lot of people, when you're talking about total cholesterol, you can be this. Well, Dave Feldman is the gentleman who's really changing the narrative for clinicians in terms of the way that we look at lipids overall in terms of vis-à-vis diet. And there are certain people that are called lean mass hyperresponders. I am one of them. My body just in relationship to eating a higher protein, lower carbohydrate diet will create more. He usually uses the analogy of boats, like more boats to transport these lipids, but it's not actually pathogenic.

I'm just going to very basically say I don't think there's a direct correlation with fasting and changes in lipids per se, but I think it's largely a reflection of nutritional choices and not per se all pathologic. Like, I don't even worry about the total cholesterol number unless it's low, because that can be a predictor of morbidity and mortality. So, there were a lot of patients that I used to stop their statins for this reason. Melanie, I'm curious, you mentioned that you read some really good research in this area in particular. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, there's actually a ton of studies on this and I got the sense pretty quickly that I didn't need to read like millions more because the takeaway was the same, which was that people seem to respond all differently, but that it is actually pretty common to see increased cholesterol levels transiently while fasting. And I should clarify, it's funny, ever since, just like we always mentioned Peter Attia, on almost every episode. He had an episode all on cholesterol. He went on a monologue about how because LDL and HDL aren't actually cholesterol. They're the carriers, like Cynthia just said. And he made a comment about how if anybody ever says LDL cholesterol, he basically not immediately dismisses them, but [laughs] questions what they know. I've just kept that in my mind. I've been like, if I ever interview him, like, “Do not say LDL cholesterol.” Do not say, [laughs] like, “Do not say HDL cholesterol.” 

But the point of that is Lynn's question was, “Is high cholesterol blood work--?" So, high cholesterol. That's a big blanket statement that has a lot of factors that are going into that. So, you have your total serum cholesterol, you have your LDL and HDL, which are carriers of cholesterol kind of what Cynthia was just saying. It's like the boat analogy. And then, you have your triglycerides. This is not meant to be a cholesterol entire episode, but there's different implications for what that all means. So, in the studies, literally, I found things showing all different things like in a 2020 trial, I found they found that in Fasting patients with low HDL, they saw that it improved their HDL and it did significantly affect their total cholesterol and their LDL as well. 

And another study, this is of an older study, but it was called Fasting increases serum total cholesterol, LDL and Apo B in healthy, nonobese humans. In their study, they found that fasting increased total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol. I liked this article because it actually went into the mechanisms behind it. They found that the increase in serum cholesterol, LDL and Apo B were all associated with weight loss. They found that fasting did not affect serum concentrations of triglycerol and HDL, which is the opposite of what that other study found. In that study, they actually did a review of a lot of other studies and literally they found all different things. It seemed to really depend on the population, on the sex, on the weight loss or not. So, their mechanisms, they say that these contradictory reports may be explained by sex and or age difference and then some of the things that might be going on is that fasting, especially if it's resulting in weight loss, that is lipolysis, so breaking down and releasing fats. 

They said that could be a reason that people see an increase in LDL. And then on top of that, with fasting, it's possible that the liver actually decreases its LDL uptake so that further can contribute to higher LDL while fasting. Basically, if you go to Google Scholar and just type in cholesterol or whatever one that you want to look at in fasting, there's so many studies, and like I said, it's really all over the place. The important takeaway from it is that long term, it seems to have a beneficial effect on people's lipid panels. So, regardless of the transitory moment, while you're fasting, that might release, break down more fat and result in more cholesterol in the bloodstream, but long term it seems to really help with lipid panels, help with your risk for cardio events. So, yes, that's my thought, is that you might see higher levels, but you're probably having a benefit in the end. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's really interesting because when I reflect back on when I started in medicine over 25 years ago, the way that we look at lipids has really started to shift, thankfully. Looking at these different particle sizes and the inflammatory responses of certain types of densities of LDL and LP(a) and Apo B, and all these metrics that people weren't per se, really looking at so many years ago. I think that fortunately, there are many people that are evolving the way that we look at lipids and benefits to metrics that we look at in blood work for patients. But there are equally just as many individuals that are still, like, practicing the mindset of total cholesterol has to be a certain amount and understanding the cholesterol goes on to be intricately involved in creating hormones. Obviously, we don't want our total cholesterol to be too low. But yeah, it's interesting that there's more and more research being done in this area. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and just a comment, I'm really excited because I love a company called InsideTracker and I haven't done this yet, but they just updated their panel that you get with them to include Apo B. So, I am so excited to get that tested. I'm like so excited. If people would like to get their Apo B tested, as well as a lot of other markers related to their “biological age.” They can go to insidetracker.com/melanie and use the code, MELANIE, to get 20% off. So, I will definitely be reporting back about that and posting about it on my Instagram because I don't think I've ever tested my Apo B. Do you test it regularly, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. It's interesting. I have intermittently had it tested over the past probably a few years. I find functional medicine, they're usually the ones that are looking at that, but especially because without oversharing, if you were to just look at a traditional lipid panel of mine, my LDL would look very high, my total cholesterol would look very high, my HDL would look very high, my triglycerides are low. And over many years of having different internists, sometimes the concept of a statin would come up and I knew enough to ask for these advanced lipid analysis and these other metrics. When you would look at, as an example the particle size of my LDL, it was like all light and fluffy. It's the less atherogenic stuff. 

And so, to answer your question, yes, I do episodically get it checked. What I'm encouraging people to do is if your traditional lipid panel looks abnormal, don't settle for that being the one and done. There's more to it than that. I like that there are companies out here now that are allowing people to get that information without having to, per se, have to go through their provider. Even if it comes back and it's abnormal and you still need to bring it to them, that's totally fine. Or if it's completely normal, then it's something that you can look at as a metric to look to determine. Where are you on this metabolic health journey? Are you doing better than the last time? Are you starting to veer off course? What can you do to course correct and keep yourself healthy and vital? 

Melanie Avalon: It is really interesting because I've been tracking my cholesterol, my full cholesterol panel, historically with InsideTracker, so I have a lot of data on it. It's really interesting how it correlates to my diet. So, like, when I'm low-carb, everything is high. I mean, not in a bad way, the nuance that you were just talking about, but the levels of everything is substantially raised compared to when I do my high protein, low-fat, high-carb, everything's lower. It's just really interesting and it's so complicated and so nuanced. I think it's probably one of the most complicated things in health as far as there just being so many different opinions on it. 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, I couldn't agree with you more and it's interesting. We'll link up another podcast I did with Dr. Bret Scher. He's a preventative cardiologist, but also as a functional integrative approach. We talked quite a bit about these advanced lipid metrics. We'll link that in the show notes so that listeners can take a listen to that as well. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Okay, now we have a question from Kim. She says, “Hi. Would you recommend fasting longer and then have a three- to four-hour eating window or fasting shorter, but having two meals, no snacks, and a longer eating window, say, a six- to seven-hour eating window? I'm a 53-year-old female post menopause, exercise daily with walking and lifting. I try to eat real whole foods and want to lose another 5 to 10 pounds than inter maintenance. Thanks so much. Love your podcast and the fantastic info you both share.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: Thanks, Kim. It sounds like you're doing a lot of great things already. I think this will be no surprise for listeners to hear me suggest that you have two meals to be able to get in a minimum of 100 grams of protein daily. I would also suggest tracking your macros to know where you are. I just find that most people really are optimized if they're getting two boluses of protein in per day. The other thing that I think is really important is especially because your menopausal getting a really good sense of what your hormones are doing. I'm not sure if you have had your baseline sex hormones, thyroid, leptin, ghrelin, all these hormones that we can have fasting insulin that we can have tested. I'm really looking at those to see if they're fully optimized, because some degree of weight loss resistance can be related to poor quality sleep, inflammatory nutrition. I know that you're strength training, so that sounds like that's really dialed in, but I think for a lot of women, it's looking at the basics and then looking at gut health and looking at things that can be cleaned up in terms of toxin exposure, your personal care products, your environment, your food. 

I know Melanie and I have talked a lot about that, in particular over the last several podcasts, and then also thinking about just the emotional component. I'm in the midst of getting ready to submit a second book proposal, and one of the things I've been really amazed, there's a lot of really good research in this that early childhood trauma, so they call it an ANA score. So, adverse childhood events, if you are at risk for having been through quite a few adverse childhood events, that can put you at risk as an adult for not auto, also autoimmune disorders like Hashimoto, celiac, etc., but can also put you at risk for weight loss resistance. So, recognizing there's a significant emotional component to some of the struggles that we have when we have weight loss plateaus, I think all those things are certainly important. Absolutely two meals in a wider feeding window I think is really helpful. How about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I thought that was really comprehensive, and I really like that stuff about the adverse childhood events. So, [laughs] it's what we always say, the importance of protein and everything being so important. Really, Cynthia, it's really been our relationship on this show that's made me pay more attention to that and that a lot of people might need longer windows to get all of that in. So, yes, I would err on the side of eating the window that will allow you to get in all of that protein rather than stressing about having the smaller window per se. Really, when it comes to the food aspect, I think there's so much magic that can happen with your actual food choices, which sounds like you're doing great, you're trying to eat real, whole foods. But I just think there's a lot of magic that can happen with that. Focus on what you're eating in that eating window rather than getting caught up in the nuance of a few more hours here or there. That’s my thoughts on that. Shall we go to some other random AMA questions? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sure. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, these are leftover AMA questions that are just kind of all over the place. Here's a really random question from Laura. She wants to know, what's the worst job that you have had? She wants to know, if you weren't doing what you're doing now, what would you be doing? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, worst job I've ever had was my first job. Many of you probably know I grew up on the Jersey Shore, and working at the boardwalk seemed to be a really awesome job. But I worked at an ice cream place, and so imagine humid, hot weather, and you were scooping ice cream. This is before there was like a lot of soft serve, so it was like getting-- you're literally-- me being five foot three, half my body was practically in this pit of ice cream to scoop it up. I spent the entire summer smelling like ice cream, and I was sticky from my armpits, honest to God, even though I had a uniform on all the way to my hand. I remember I don't think I ate ice cream for several years after that, but I hated that job. [laughs] I really did not like that job. It was very reinforcing, like, “Okay, if I'm going to be working hard and sweating, I want to be making more money.” So I started waiting tables after that.

But if I weren't doing what I'm doing now, I think I honestly would have ended up either this is kind of funny. Originally, I thought I was going to be an attorney, and I realized now I don't like to argue, so I would have been a terrible attorney. I think I honestly would have ended up in the media realm, whether it would have been behind the scenes or being a reporter. I like getting the scoop, I like getting information, which is probably why podcasting appeals to me so much that I get to ask people all the questions that I'm curious about, but that's probably what I would have done. I'm an introvert, so being in front of the camera might not have been where I would have been, but I probably would have enjoyed being a reporter or being a journalist. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. That job does sound pretty miserable. Have I shared with you before my background horror stories? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, so I've only cried from misery three times in my life and they were all while doing background on TV shows and movies and so the worst experience of my life, I might have shared this story before on the podcast. Do you know the movie, Sharknado? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, [chuckles] so in the acting world, there's union acting. SAG-AFTRA that people might be familiar with, like the SAG Awards. And then, there's nonunion. Well, when you're a background “actor,” so when you're a person in the background of a TV show or movie, you're like the lowest of low on the totem pole. If you ever want to see social hierarchies devoid of empathy, [chuckles] where people are just so blunt about the hierarchy that it's almost shocking, just go to a film set and look at how extras are treated.

But in any case, when I was nonunion, it can be pretty bad. I got a call for this movie and it was a low budget sci-fi film. They didn't tell us what it was or the name or anything. We were shooting in downtown LA. It was in the winter, which I know it's not that cold in LA. But it was like 40 degrees that day and were in like a tunnel. I think it was like a tunnel without a roof. So, it was like a valley thing. It's hard to describe. It was down, so it created like a wind tunnel. Wind was rushing through it and so they put us down there and then they were like yelling at us from like way up high and then they were like, “Okay, so when we call action, we're going to do the rain and then there are sharks and just run away from the sharks.” We're like [laughs] because it ended up being Sharknado. So, they would say like, “cue rain.” And they do “Action,” it would be like a torrential downpour. We had to just like run from imaginary sharks, like over cars, but for 6 hours, like in 40 degrees with wind and rain like soaked to the bone. I was so miserable. I was bawling. They would say run and I was like tears were like streaming down my face. 

And then finally, they pulled out some of us because like a PA came over and was like, I think they might get hypothermia. [laughs] They took some of us and put us into a tent. It was the worst day of my life. And then, what's really funny is then later I realized it was Sharknado. And I was like, “Oh.”

And then, what's even funnier is I became SAG later. When you're SAG, they treat you a lot better. I got a call for Sharknado 2, and I was like, “I can't do this movie again.” But the second time around, [laughs] I was SAG. I was a flight attendant and it was really cool. It was on a plane, a fake plane. The other flight attendant was Kelly Osbourne. [laughs] It was really fun. It was really funny too, because it was the same thing. They'd be like, “Action,” and they'd be like “Sharks.” And we all had to be like screaming. Oh, man, good times.

And then, the other two times I cried. One was doing background on some TV show and I had to swim in a pool for hours. It was also freezing, and I was just like holding the side and like crying to myself. The third time I was crying was I was on Fast and the Furious 7, out in the desert and it was 110 degrees and I literally thought I was going to die. That's the only time I left the set earlier, I went up to the medic and I was like, “I have to leave. I can't do this anymore.” 

Cynthia Thurlow: But I think for a lot like those of us who are not in that industry or never worked in that industry, I think there's this perception that it's all glamorous and you have definitely reaffirmed that it is not all glamorous. So, kudos to you for being wet and cold and pretending to run from whatever Sharknado thing was going on. But how cool about Kelly Osbourne. Was she nice? Like friendly?

Melanie Avalon: She seemed nice. Yeah, I think I didn't really talk to her, but I actually have a really cool video way back on my Instagram because I think for that scene I was in the back of the plane. So, I was like just with my little cart and not actually going into the scene, so it looked like I was in a plane. But you would just hear action and then you just people screaming like sharks, like the lights flickering. I've had so many experiences on movies and TV shows, it's crazy. Like, I've probably been on every TV show. 

Cynthia Thurlow: That's so funny. Yeah, I've been on sets, but it's been like news environments and so that's totally different. It's a little more like serious. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, well, what's really funny is some of the experiences are so surreal and it's funny because when you're doing background acting, half the time you really just don't want to be there. Some of the experiences are really cool. People would probably pay thousands of dollars for that. When it's happening for me, I'm like, "I just want to go home." I remember I did a concert scene for CSI and it was actually Ozzy Osbourne and I was like in the front row. So, I got to stand in front of Ozzy Osbourne for like hours while he was doing a fake concert. The whole time I was like, "I just want to leave." I knew that people would probably pay like thousands of dollars for that experience. But for me, it was like $8 an hour. So, [laughs] good times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: The glamorous life. 

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know, I know. What would I be doing if I wasn't doing this? So funny, like you growing up, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I still think I could be a good lawyer, but I don't think I'd be happy doing it because I think it would make me upset. So, like Morgan Levine kind of embodies-- She wrote the book True Age, and I had her on my show, and she kind of embodies what I would want to be if I was a scientist, because she's-- not to be stereotypical, but I don't know how to say this all being stereotypical. She doesn't look like your typical scientist. She looks like if I were a scientist, what I think I would like the vibe that it would be. She's brilliant and studies aging. So, when I interviewed David Sinclair the first time, he made a comment about how I should come be a student in his lab at Harvard, and I wanted to just die when he said that. I think that's what I would be doing would be, like a scientist and studying longevity and aging, and the goal would be to get a Nobel Prize. [laughter] Aim high. 

Cynthia Thurlow: I think that's exciting. 

Melanie Avalon: So, here's one. Heidi wants to know, what does a day of eating look like for you? Kim really wants to know what is your favorite dinner? So, those two.

Cynthia Thurlow: Okay, so we'll start with favorite dinner, because that's easy. Like a big filet and probably either asparagus or broccolini and maybe some mushrooms. I keep things pretty simple. We grill a lot of meat and a lot of fish, and that's my happy place. Give me some healthy fats and some meat and some non-starchy vegetables, and that's like a perfect meal for me. I would say that today is a good example of what I eat in a day. I broke my fast this morning with-- gosh, it was like two bison burgers and some hard-boiled eggs, because it just depends on the day. I was hungry, and so I had that along with some cut-up cucumbers that were salted. I go through phases where I like certain foods, and cucumbers are super hydrating, as Melanie and I both know, and they're just easy to put together. 

And I don't necessarily have to do a lot of food prep. And then tonight, we're having short ribs. So, my goal is always to hit 50 to 60 grams of protein in each meal. Today, I was way more than 60 grams with what I eat because I had two burgers and two eggs. So yeah, I had way over that. And then, dinner is going to be short ribs, and I haven't yet consumed that. My kids will probably-- I think they're asking already for some type of a starch with that, I'll probably have asparagus. I mean, for me, there's probably four or five vegetables that I choose between for big meals and then salad whenever I want it. But that's in a given day. That's what I'm going to have. Today has been busy getting taxes prepared and then podcast recording, doing some couple of podcasts of Melanie. How about you, Melanie? What's your favorite dinner? 

Melanie Avalon: So, it's interesting, I have two answers because there's my favorite dinner that I eat, and then there's like if it was my last meal type thing, which would be completely different. Would your last meal be completely different? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, because I would say my go-to is usually steak or like a bison steak or like a fatty fish, like maybe salmon, like a good-sized salmon steak. For me, it's so satiating that I definitely hit those protein thresholds where I'm like totally satiated and done. Maybe if you're asking if I'd have dessert, then it might be something chocolatey, because I love chocolate, dark chocolate. 

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting. I love what I eat. When I answer my Cynthia answer, which is it's what I would often eat, like at a restaurant or something. And I do love it. So, when I say my other answer, it's not that I don't love what I'm normally eating, because I do, but it's very similar to what Cynthia said. It really would depend on what I'm personally craving that night, protein wise. It would be like if it's a steak, a bone and filet is my favorite cut. If it's fish, I love going out when they have whole branzino. I love that. I love chilling sea bass, but it's too high in mercury. That would be my favorite fish. But the mercury is an issue. Yeah, it would be that with steamed spinach or something and then red wine, and then probably lots of fruit, lots of blueberries. If it was like a last meal situation, that's when I would eat all the things. 

So, it would definitely be Cajun chicken pasta from Chili’s, which I haven't had since probably high school. Funfetti cake, just all the Funfetti and lots of cheese. I mean, alfredo-- oh, yeah, Cajun chicken pasta is alfredo. Yeah. I love all these things. The day in the life, I think listeners are overwhelmingly familiar. I just eat the one meal day thing, and I eat tons and tons of lean protein, whatever I'm craving, tons of scallops. So, it's usually scallops and then either some chicken or some fish. Lots of cucumbers, and I love lots of blueberries and wine and rinse and repeat. It's pretty much just whatever I'm craving. Then the scallops are with, like, mushrooms and cilantro and chives, ginger, turmeric. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's funny, I hadn't had scallops in a while, and I just had scallops recently, and it's interesting. It's one of the few things my husband doesn't like, so if I get them, it's usually at a restaurant. And I ate them and I was like, “Okay I think I'm okay eating scallops.” Again, I won't eat them again for six months. But I definitely love lobster and shellfish. Yeah, there's a lot of good things, but my kind of methodology for everyone that's listening, it's usually heavy on the protein. If there's not fat in the protein, then I'm adding some fats and then some type of a non-starchy vegetable, and I'm very happy. Like, broccolini is my current obsession, especially if it's sautéed with garlic and red pepper. It's really good and just superfast and easy. 

Melanie Avalon: Actually, that made me think I'll clarify. So, my ideal favorite meal that I actually eat, I love at restaurants when they have tartar or carpaccio, it's like some rare meat appetizer or sashimi if it's salmon. And I'm excited, speaking of Valentine's Day, the restaurant we're going to, I think, has a seafood tower. The thing I love about seafood towers is those tend to all be low mercury things like lobster, shrimp, like shellfish and stuff. So, crab. 

Cynthia Thurlow: It's all good. Someone was making fun of me the other day because I went into our grocery store and they had lobster that had been deconstructed that day. And so, I bought myself half a pound of lobster tail and claw and just put it on top of a salad and ate that for lunch. And it was amazing. My kids were like, “I cannot believe you bought that for yourself.” I was like, “Yes, I did, and I feel zero guilt.” 

Melanie Avalon: That's totally what I would do. Oh, I love going to-- Fun fact, I might have shared this. If you go to Whole Foods and they have the whole fish, they will debone it for you if you ask. So, I love going-- I went on a kick after I had, like I said, the full branzino at some restaurants. I was like, “I got to start doing this myself.” So, I go and get an entire fish for myself and cook it. It's really fun. It's yummy. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Our next sponsor is Athletic Greens. I take AG1 by Athletic Greens most days of the week. I initially tried it because I travel so frequently, and it just makes my life so much easier to have a convenient, healthy option. I typically will take it in the morning after working out or after my morning tea, and it makes me feel like I have so much more energy/ For me, it's all about convenience. I can take my travel packs with me, whether I'm traveling for business, whether I'm traveling for pleasure, I can throw it in my bag, and I know I can make it through security without any issues. AG1 has been part of millions of mornings since 2010 and a part of my morning for the last three to four years. It's made with 75 super high-quality vitamins and minerals, as well as whole food sourced ingredients that positively benefit my energy and sleep.

I also love that they are supporters of donating to organizations helping to get nutritious food to kids in need, including No Kid Hungry here in the United States. Athletic Greens has donated over 1.2 million meals to kids in 2020.

So, if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. These travel packs make it so easy and convenient to bring Athletic Greens with you anywhere. Go to athleticgreens.com/ifpodcast. Definitely check it out. 

Melanie Avalon: Okay, here's a really fun one from Mary Jane, “What are some health-related things you've tried that you really didn't like or had bad side effects to?” I tried like all the diets back in the day before finding low-carb and paleo. So, all of those, like, the cookie diet, just not a fan of that. I tried being vegan for like a week, did not work.

Cynthia Thurlow: How did that go? 

Melanie Avalon: It was like [chuckles] I remember I did it for, like, a week in college, and I was really excited because I went to a restaurant and was trying to find something, and they had something with Green Goddess dressing, and I was like, “This is so thematic. I'm being so vegetarian right now.” I was starving for protein. I was like, “I need meat.” It was very clear that it was not for me. The cookie diet, as well, was not for me. [laughs] Calorie counting, not for me. I need to feast. Like, I'm such a feaster. Also, so getting up early does not work for me. Like, as much as I want to be a morning person, going back and trying to widen my eating window and doing daytime eating after having done intermittent fasting, nope, not a good idea. Then, lastly, pets are so amazing for health. So incredible but I am not meant to, at least right now, have a pet. It's a lot to take care of, [chuckles] but I love when other people have pets. Oh, yeah and iodine. Iodine, I reacted to that supplement so bad. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Did you? Was it oral iodine or just putting it on, like Lugol’s solution on your skin? 

Melanie Avalon: I was doing the skin, and then I took some orally, and it's the only time that I so obviously reacted to a supplement. Like, my eyes got bloodshot red. I was like, “I can't go to work.” It's when I was a server, I look like I'm hungover or something. Yeah, it scared me. I think it's probably because it made me probably flush out like bromides and things. Did that spark your memory for any of yours? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I think the things that I've learned about myself that a lot of other people have been able to do effortlessly that have not worked for me. I would say working night shifts never agreed with me. I'm not someone that does well, staying up late at night and not going to bed when it's dark outside. To the point where I think most of the time that I worked nights as a nurse and an NP, I felt like how you feel when you're, I don't want to say the word hungover, but when you're so tired, you just can't function. Like, I would function in the emergencies, but I would then walk around like a zombie on the days I was off or when I was trying to go to bed when it was light outside. So, say that. Certainly, the things that really didn't agree with me was when probably in the early 1990s when were still bastardizing fat and I just got out of college. 

When you take fat out, you're never satiated and you add a lot of processed crap back in there. So, when you're eating a lot of carbs, you're never satisfied. You're overeating carbs, not eating enough protein, eating fake fats. And I would say that definitely, although I was able to pretty quickly figure out that I do better eating more protein, but certainly not as much as I consume now. I would say that and the other thing that I've figured out doesn't suit me well. As I've never been a drinker, I was never someone that did well. I could have a drink or two, but I was never someone who ever felt good if they drank a lot. So, finally feeling like I'm at a stage in my life where I can effectively say I just choose not to drink because for me it doesn't make me feel good and my sleep is far too important. So, I would say those are probably the three things that I think about that for other people might work fine, but don't for me. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I mean, the night shift is interesting because I think it's really interesting how much clinical literature there is on night shift workers and how bad it is for our health. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, it's interesting as I'm kind of navigating writing this book proposal. It's interesting to me that when you look at the research on metabolic health, the disadvantage people are at that work contrary to the way our circadian biology is designed to thrive. So, if you're not going to bed at all when it's dark outside, that's a problem. And so, you look at the rates of cancer and poor metabolic health and Alzheimer's and all these things, it's pretty solid research. I think about how many of my peers and colleagues like that was the only option they had, either because they had to work when their kids were asleep and then come home and take care of their kids or whatever their circumstances were. Those are hard decisions to make, but the research is certainly leaning in the direction that it's really profoundly detrimental to your health long term. Like, if you do it for a couple of years, that's different, but if you do that for 20, 30 years, definitely problematic. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. Here's a sort of related one. What's a beauty or health product or fat that didn't work for you? I have one for that. Do you have one? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Oh, you go first. I'll have to think.

Melanie Avalon: Eyelash extensions. Have you done them before? 

Cynthia Thurlow: No, the only time I -- Well, I wouldn't-- it's just when they add a little-- like if you get your makeup done, I think that's different.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. Yeah, yeah, not like the temporary falsies. I got them done and I mean, they look amazing. They make your makeup routine cut down so much time getting ready. So, that was all great. And for a while I was like, “Oh, this is worth it for the time alone,” because I can just get ready faster. But they're so obnoxious to take care of like, when you're sleeping, I wear an eye mask. You're not supposed to do that. You can't really, like, wash them. I found the whole experience to be very stressful, [laughs] and then I took them off and I felt like I had lost so many eyelashes, and it's hard to know if I actually did or if it just looked I was used to seeing them. But the good thing that came out of that was after that started using DIME Beauty, they make an eyelash growth serum, and it's amazing. And I chose it because it's nontoxic. I can't recommend this eyelash serum enough. It has made my eyelashes grow so long now, like, I think probably better than before the eyelash extension. So, everybody get it. You can get a discount at melanieavalon.com/dime and use the code MELANIEAVALON. It's just their eyelash growth serum. So, I really recommend that. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I'm going to share what is relevant because I have a troll on YouTube who's been making completely non-factual statements about me. So, I'm going to just call it out because just like I responded to this person. All of us have facial asymmetry. Everyone has-- like the right side of your face is not perfectly symmetrical to your left. As we get older, sometimes one side of your face may be more expressive than the other. You may have stronger muscles one side than the other. So, I have a very full mouth. I have had that my entire life. 

The reason why I'm sharing this story is to preemptively tell you what one thing I did that I didn't like. I've never had filler in my lips, but I have tried filler in other parts of my face. And so, about 12 years ago, there's this “famous" facial plastic surgeon in the Northern Virginia area, and I was like, “Oh, this is the person I need to go to.” They put some filler underneath my tear trough, so like underneath your eye. I guess he put so much filler there that I got horrible bruising. It made me look like I had perhaps been assaulted. I had to live with my face looking like that for like two weeks, and then it settled down. But for some people, you can get something called the Tyndall effect, which means when the filler is placed under the skin, you get a blue glow hue. And so, I had to have it all reversed. This is why I let the buyer beware. And so, I had it all reversed. And the irony is this troll kept saying, “Oh, you can tell she's had a ton of fillers.” I was like, “Dude, let me explain something to you.” After that experience, it was so negative. I was like, if I ever choose to do this again, I'm going to go to the best of the best, which is who I go to. 

This troll the other day was commenting that, “Oh, I'd had a ton of filler in my lips.” I was like, “No.” If you looked at photos of me, I was made fun of growing up because I had such full lips. The irony is I get accused of something I actually haven't done in a place I haven't done it. For me, the thing that I would caution everyone is if you choose to do anything to yourself, just make sure it's something you can reverse. That's the reason why I was comfortable saying, “Okay, this didn't work for me,” and you can reverse filler very easily. But a lot of people overdo it with filler, and it can migrate, so you have to be really, really careful. So, that would be my thing that I've done that I didn't love. 

Melanie Avalon: Well, thank you for sharing that and that sounds really intense. Just to discuss really briefly, the troll thing this weekend actually has been really hard for me because I posted a picture of when I went to see Hadestown, which is a Broadway musical, and all it took was like, one person commenting on my weight, which-- that's a whole tangent about. I don't know, I find it really interesting that the body shaming, there's like a double standard as far as what is acceptable and what's not. For some reason, it's okay to comment on people if you think they're underweight, and I know people are. They try to say it supportively, or most people do, but it just led to a torrential downpour of people commenting on my Instagram and then supportive people were there as well, but just stuff that's very not supportive and very negative. 

What's really interesting is I've been eating the same for like a decade, and it's so funny, like, one person called me that they were like, “I just went back through her pictures from ten years ago, and she looks the same as she did ten years ago.” But I just find it really interesting how people interact with people on social media. It's like because you're behind a screen, I don't know that people would say things to people's face in real life that they would say on social media and then just it's really ironic to me that there's a whole body acceptance movement, but it only goes one way. Like it goes for being overweight, but not if you look thin. And I also think we maybe have a warped perspective because I feel like the baseline weight is so high now that if you are thin or underweight, it looks even worse because we're used to seeing, I think, a higher resting weight. So, I've been having a lot of-- I got to see my therapist this week. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, no, no and it's interesting because I think that anytime you put yourself out there, you are going to get people who are keyboard warriors. They would never say something like that to your face, but they feel empowered because you can't find them. What's interesting is it was a physician who couldn't who kept making these comments, and people were defending me, but it was also one of the things I was saying to my husband. I was like I was shocked because generally I try to not interject, but I interacted with this individual saying, “No, you're actually incorrect. You don't know what you're talking about,” because someone said, “Oh, it looks like you're having a stroke.” I was like, “No, you can actually have stronger muscles one side of your face than the other. That's normal asymmetry,” and it's just interesting how the people who put themselves out there are the ones oftentimes that are at greater risk for having people make comments. 

But I think energetically, it's like you just don't engage with people like that because you're not going to change their belief system. They want to believe what they want to believe, and it also invites all of us to rise above that and to just not interact. Like, to me, the adage of, “If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.” I think about my mother said that to me growing up. I always think, like, I don't ever want my comments to be perceived as negative. It's like if I have something negative to say, I'm not going to say it. It just isn't worth it. but if you have something positive to say or something that's going to be helpful or beneficial, I think that's great. Just like it seems like over the last couple of days, there's been an uptick in people making comments and my DMs on Instagram and my team trying to make sense of some of these things. 

The point of why I'm sharing all this is if you don't have anything nice to say, just keep it to yourself. I think that's a much healthier way to be. If there's something constructive, if someone and it's something helpful and constructive, that's very different. I think all of us welcome feedback, but people to be mean and self-righteous just for the sake of being mean, that’s no one needs that. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, it's really interesting. The way I reacted was I tried to answer every person and just with kindness and not defensiveness, just hearts and kindness. It's really interesting exercise, I think, for everybody. It's interesting for me to see how I react and what does that say about my feelings. And then for people, if they do take a lens at why they're saying these things, why, because I think often it does come from personal insecurities and things like that, but I was super grateful for the people who are supportive. I got a lot more supportive DMs because I think people, they like to support that way. Yeah, it's interesting and I don't know, I just find it so interesting how thin shaming is totally okay, [laughs] or seemingly okay. Yeah, so, fun times. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, I love all these questions. I think they're really, I mean, in some instances I really have to think hard. [laughs] Like I'll say to Melanie, you answer it first and while you're answering, I'll think of my answer. 

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I think next week maybe we still have some good ones, so we might do one more of these episodes. But this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be @ifpodcast.com/episode304. They will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. I know we talked about a lot of studies, a lot of things, so definitely check that out. And then if you want to [laughs] join us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_. So, I think that is all the things and yeah anything else for me, Cynthia, before we go?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. By the time this episode comes out, we will have the creatine subscriptions up, so we'll definitely be keeping everyone post about that. 

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Yeah, and I'll have the switch to more sustainable subscriptions the week after this. So, the links to learn more about all of that is cynthiathurlow.com/supplements for her line and avalonx.us/emaillist for my line and that's to get updates. So, okie-dokie. Well, have a wonderful Valentine's Day tomorrow [[chuckles] and I will talk to you later. 

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good, bye. 

Melanie Avalon: Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.

We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by Podcast Doctors. Show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner. Transcripts by SpeechDocs. And original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week. 

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription] 

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

More on Cynthia: cynthiathurlow.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in iTunes - it helps more than you know! 

 

 

Feb 05

Episode 303: AMA Part 4, Recycling, Extended Fasting, Insulin Resistance, Electrolytes, Coffee, Tea, Glucose, CGM, Fasting Fluctuation, And More!

Intermittent Fasting

Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Cynthia Thurlow, author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: The 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-Fed Beef, Organic Chicken, Heritage Pork, Wild-Caught Seafood: Nutrient-Rich, Raised Sustainably The Way Nature Intended, And Shipped Straight To Your Door! For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast and a Whole Chicken plus $10 off!

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JOOVV: Like intermittent fasting, red light therapy can benefit the body on so many levels! It literally works on the mitochondrial level to help your cells generate more energy! Red light can help you burn fat (including targeted fat burning and stubborn fat!), contour your body, reduce fine lines and wrinkles, produce collagen for epic skin, support muscle recovery, reduce joint pain and inflammation, combat fatigue, help you sleep better, improve mood, and so much more!! These devices are literally LIFE CHANGING!! For A Limited Time Go To Joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!


To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

1:10 - BUTCHERBOX: For A Limited Time Go To butcherbox.com/ifpodcast And Get Chuck Roast And A Whole Chicken Plus $10 Off!

3:30 - BEAUTYCOUNTER: Keep Your Fast Clean Inside And Out With Safe Skincare! Shop With Us At melanieavalon.com/beautycounter or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow And Use The Code CLEANFORALL20 For 20% Off PLUS Something Magical Might Happen After Your First Order! Find Your Perfect Beautycounter Products With Melanie's Quiz: Melanieavalon.Com/Beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook Group Clean Beauty And Safe Skincare With Melanie Avalon To Discuss And Learn About All The Things Clean Beauty, Beautycounter And Safe Skincare!

MANUKORA: Go To manukora.com/ifpodcast For A FREE Pack Of Honey Sticks With Your Order!

15:30 - NUTRISENSEGet $30 and get 1 month of free dietitian support At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST

19:10 - Listener Q&A: Neva - I’ve been dying to ask, any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of “longer fasts needed to get insulin resistance reversed and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin” vs Cynthia’s concerns about longer fasts and especially getting enough protein? This conundrum has been a problem for me.

28:05 - Listener Q&A: Nicole - Is it ok to cycle your fasting times. Anywhere from 14-18
If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes (LMNT) are you still fasting?
Is coffee ok to have while fasting?

For A Limited Time Go To drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast To Get A FREE Sample Pack With Any Purchase! 

43:45 - Listener Q&A: Sarah - Help! My fasting glucose is going up! I have been intermittent fasting for over 2 years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I have been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I’m 40, haven’t made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100 even after 18 hours. In March I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3 and 5 within two weeks on 3 separate occasions. I would love any advice!

53:20 - JOOVV: For A Limited Time Go To joovv.com/ifpodcast And Use The Code IFPODCAST For An Exclusive Discount!

56:40 - Listener Q&A: Natalie - How come some times it’s easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours. Does age? Cycle? Does/ should Perimenopause change anything about the way we fast. How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3-5 lbs knowing we didn’t eat that much, yes water weight and bloating, but how can we not let it ruin our vibe. Lol! Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine, and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified health care provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker and author of What When Wine: Lose Weight and Feel Great with Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, and Wine. And I'm here with my cohost, Cynthia Thurlow, Nurse Practitioner and author of Intermittent Fasting Transformation: A 45-Day Program for Women to Lose Stubborn Weight, Improve Hormonal Health, and Slow Aging. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and cynthiathurlow.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment and no doctor-patient relationship is formed. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi friends. I'm about to tell you how you can get a grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. Yes, that is a free grass-fed chuck roast and a whole free-range organic chicken plus $10 off. So, we are a little bit obsessed with a company called ButcherBox. When you think high-quality meals, what do you think? For me, I think of the actual source ingredients. It's a little bit ironic because I do love eating out at restaurants, but I honestly think that I can get better high-quality meat and seafood right in my own home. That's because ButcherBox takes the guesswork out of finding high-quality meat and seafood and makes it so easy, so accessible, and so affordable.

I love this company. They make 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork that is raised crate free, and wild-caught seafood. Everything is humanely raised and there are no antibiotics or added hormones. You can get a variety of high-quality cuts that are hard to come by at the grocery store at an amazing value. Friends, I did a lot of research on ButcherBox. I wrote an entire blog post about it, and I was so, so impressed with their practices. And they make it so easy. They have free shipping for the continental US and no surprise fees, and you can really make the boxes be exactly what you want. They have quite a few options including curated options and customized options, and you can change your plan whenever you want.

I recently ate both a ButcherBox grass-fed steak and some of their heritage breed pork chop. Both of them were so incredible. I was eating it and just thinking, this is the most delicious thing ever. And people go to restaurants and spend so much money on meals when they could be eating something that is more delicious, probably more sustainable, and better for you and the planet all at home. Right now, ButcherBox has an incredible offer for our audience. You can get a free grass-fed chuck roast and a free whole free range organic chicken, plus $10 off when you sign up today. That's a chuck roast and a whole chicken plus $10 off when you sign up at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code IFPODCAST. Claim this deal at butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST, and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

And one more thing before we jump in, are you fasting clean inside and out? When it comes to weight loss, we focus a lot on what and when we eat. It makes sense because these foods affect our hormones and how our bodies store and burn fat. But do you know what is possibly one of the most influential factors in weight gain? It's not your food and it's not fasting, it's actually our skincare and makeup. As it turns out, Europe has banned over a thousand compounds found in conventional skincare and makeup in the US due to their toxicity. These include endocrine disrupters, which mess with your hormones, carcinogens linked to cancer, and obesogens, which literally can cause your body to store and gain weight. Basically, when we're using conventional skincare and makeup, we are giving these obesogenic compounds direct access to our bloodstream. And then in our bodies, studies have shown they do things like reduce our satiety hormones, increase our hunger hormones, make fat cells more likely to store fat, and more resistant to burning fat, and so much more. If you have stubborn fat, friends, your skincare and makeup may be playing a role in that. Beyond weight gain and weight loss, these compounds have very detrimental effects on our health and they affect the health of our future generations. That's because ladies when we have babies, a huge percent of those toxic compounds go through the placenta into the newborn. It is so, so shocking and the effects last for years.

Conventional lipstick, for example, often tests high in lead and the half-life of lead is up to 30 years. That means when you put on some conventional lipstick, 30 years later maybe half of that lead has left your bones. On top of that, there is essentially no regulation of these products on the shelves. That's why it's up to us to choose brands that are changing this. The brand that is working the hardest to do this is Beautycounter. They were founded on a mission to change this. Every single ingredient is extensively tested to be safe for your skin, so you can truly feel good about what you put on. And friends, these products really, really work. They are incredible. They have counter time for anti-aging, counter match for normal skin, counter control for acne and oily prone, and counter start for sensitive. I use their Overnight Resurfacing Peel and vitamin C serum every single night of my life and their makeup is amazing. Check out my Instagram to see what it looks like. Tina Fey even wore all Beautycounter makeup when she hosted The Golden Globes. So, yes, it is high-definition camera ready. They have so many other products, deodorant, shampoo and conditioner that I love, products for babies, and so much more. You can shop with us at beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. Also, make sure to get on my clean beauty email list. That's at melanieavalon.com/cleanbeauty. I give away a lot of free things on that list. So, definitely check it out. You can join me in my Facebook group, Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon. People share their experiences, ask questions, give product reviews, and I do a giveaway every single week in that group as well. 

And lastly, if you're thinking of making clean beauty and safe skincare a part of your future like we have, we definitely recommend becoming a band of beauty member. It's sort of like Amazon Prime for clean beauty. You get 10% back in product credit, free shipping on qualifying orders, and a welcome gift that is worth way more than the price of the yearlong membership. It is totally completely worth it. So, again to shop with us go to beautycounter.com/melanieavalon or beautycounter.com/cynthiathurlow and use the coupon code, CLEANFORALL20 to get 20% off your first order. And we'll put all this information in the show notes. All right, now, back to the show.

Hi everybody and welcome, this is episode number 303 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Cynthia Thurlow.

Cynthia Thurlow: Hi, Melanie, how are you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm doing very well. I actually have a question for you. It relates to, so I have an announcement and I have something that I wanted to share and it relates to a question for you as well. I interviewed a guy named Matt Simon for his book A Poison Like No Other, which was all about microplastics corrupting our planet. And it was mind-blowing and shocking. But in any case, it just made me more and more aware of the importance of sustainability and not creating waste and all of this stuff. I have an announcement about how we're going to change and adjust how we offer subscriptions for AvalonX products. But I was wondering-- do you have subscriptions for your products?

Cynthia Thurlow: The subscription will start on February 10th and we're really excited since there's been such a tremendous response to the creatine. I don't know if we told you that Mark Hyman featured my creatine in his newsletter last week.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wow. Did you send it to him?

Cynthia Thurlow: No. I had my second podcast with Drew [unintelligible [00:08:20] last month, and when I was out, I brought some with me just to kind of have in case I was going to give it to someone that I thought would enjoy it. And when we were having an off-camera discussion, he mentioned he had just started-- he had been working diligently on strength training and fat loss. I said to him, have you looked at the research on creatine? He's like, I absolutely have. And so, I said, I brought a product of mine, there's absolutely no obligation. He loved it. He gave it to his sister, bought some, and then they featured it in Mark Hyman's newsletter. I was really surprised and very grateful for that opportunity because it led to quite a bit of people purchasing the creatine. So, yes, our subscriptions are going to start on February 10th and it's really going to be a great way to save on a product that I think nearly every person, irrespective of life, age, and stage can benefit from.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. That's amazing. Have you had Mark on your show?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not. He is kind of one of those elusive characters that doesn't do a lot of guest podcasting. I guess you get to a point in your business I know JJ Virgin and I talk about this that people will get to a point in their business where they just don't do a lot of guest podcasting anymore. And I think that's where he is. And so, to answer your question, no, but it doesn't mean that it won't happen, I'm going to cross my fingers and put that intention out there into the universe.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. I will as well. That's amazing. That's super cool. The subscriptions are great because they make it easy for people, but then as far as it's less shipping, it's more sustainable. The change that we're making, which we're still locking down the details, but it should be hopefully around February 20th, I think. We're hoping to switch to right now, people get multiple bottles, so we're hoping to switch to a one-large bottle option. Hopefully, that will be live so people can get the updates at avalonx.us/emaillist. And how can people get updates for your products? 

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, so the easy thing to do is to go to www.cynthiathurlow.com/supplements and you'll be able to get information on creatine as well as a little teaser about what the next supplement will be. I'm technically not allowed to talk about it yet, but we're super excited because it's going to be helpful for brain health, metabolic health, and there's a lot of solid research on sleep support as well.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Just as a cap to all of that, I read that book A Poison Like No Other, which I actually really recommend reading the book or checking out my interview when it comes out because it really is upsetting. I didn't really realize the extent that I knew plastics were bad, but he just has all the stats about really what they're doing, but then what's really crazy and this kind of blew my mind. He danced around this but I was listening to an interview last night that made it even more firm. He talks in his book about how recycling is misleading. It's not really doing what we think it's doing and the majority of recycled products just end up in landfills anyway. Last night I was listening to an interview on Rich Roll with Seth Godin and he just outright said that recycling was created by like that it's just a lie. It was created by industry to make us feel better about plastic. He literally says recycling things into blue plastic bins does nothing. Like it's literally created. Again, I got to research this, but he says it was created by the industry so people would feel better about purchasing plastic because they could recycle it.

Cynthia Thurlow: That would make sense, although very disturbing because I think so many of us have been led to believe that if we can recycle it, then it's not so bad. To your point, I was listening to a podcast of Shawn Stevenson's recently and he was connected with Metabolic Mike, who is the podcast host of High-Intensity Health, which is one of my favorite podcasts to listen to because he really provides research and makes it short and relevant so that people can have some takeaways. They were talking about the contamination theory of obesity as a means for why so many people are struggling with weight loss resistance and why we're seeing such a net impact on fertility rates and miscarriages and changes in endogenous testosterone levels. I think for a long time I was always like, "Oh, it's related to insulin resistance, we're such an unhealthy population." It's really the exposure to these endocrine-mimicking chemicals that is so profound. I really look forward to checking that book out and of course, listening to your interview.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, I find it all just so fascinating and things that people just don't really think about, but I'm happy that people are taking it more seriously now. It's funny though, I read that book. I'm so happy, my supplements are in glass bottles, but they have plastic caps. I was reading it and I was like texting or calling Scott, our partner at MD Logic. I was like, we have to get rid of plastic caps. I don't know what the alternative is, but yeah, so we'll work on that.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love how thoughtful you've been. I mean, thus far, I think my second product will also be in a pouch. We're trying to navigate healthier options as opposed to a lot of the plastics that most supplements are contained in. There's a lot of nuances and I think that we just try to do the best that we can, but obviously understanding that we don't know at all and that we have to continue to do the work and to learn from experts that know more than we do. Because I certainly feel like it's not a race, it's a journey to make better choices in things we're exposed to in our environment, personal care products and food, and plastics are everywhere. I mean, if you really just sit back and think about it is everywhere. We just think about it as being normal.

Melanie Avalon: So, fun fact, it's literally everywhere. They're on the top of Mount Everest. According to that book, they're at the top of Mount Everest and they're also at the bottoms of the ocean. So, they're literally everywhere. So, yeah, fun times, fun times. I did get really excited because one of our new sponsors, Manukora Honey, which is delicious, it's manuka honey from New Zealand. When I did the call with them because they have individual packets that they send, I was little bit concerned because I was like that doesn't sound very sustainable. But when I did the call with them, they said they actually had completely 100% compostable packaging for those. So, that was super exciting. People can actually get those free if they go to manukora.com/ifpodcast. So, get some manuka honey sticks to try in completely compostable packaging.

Cynthia Thurlow: That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon: Hi, friends, we talk all the time on this show about the beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and especially how it can affect your blood sugar levels. How much do we talk about this? How diet affects them? How exercise affects them? How fasting affects them? But how do you actually know what your blood sugar levels are? Besides when you go to the doctor and get a snapshot of that one moment in time, or give yourself a finger prick, which again is a snapshot of that one moment in time. What if you could know what your blood sugar was all the time? That would be a revolutionary insight that could really help you meet your health and wellness goals. Guess what? You can do that now. I'm going to tell you how to save $30 off while doing it. We are obsessed with a company called NutriSense. They provide access to and interpretations of the data from the biosensors known as Continuous Glucose Monitors aka CGMs. Your blood sugar level can significantly impact how your body feels and functions. NutriSense lets you analyze in real time how your glucose levels respond to food, exercise, sleep, and stress. How does that work? Well, a CGM is a small device that tracks your glucose levels in real time. The application is easy and painless. I promise, promise, promise. Check out my Instagram. I have so many videos of putting them on so you can see what that process is like. It's actually really fun.

You can use the NutriSense app to scan your CGM, visualize data, log your meals, run experiments, and so much more. And you get expert dietitian guidance. Each subscription plan includes one month free of dietitian support. One of my friends recently got a CGM, and she was going on and on about how cool it was to talk one on one with a dietitian who could help her interpret her results. Your dietitian will help you interpret the data and provide suggestions based on your goals. Of course, if you're already super knowledgeable in this space, they will still be able to provide you more advanced tips and recommendations. Friends, seeing this data in real time is what makes it easy to identify what you're doing well and where there's room for improvement. Some benefits and outcomes that you can experience weight loss, stable energy throughout the day, better sleep, understanding which foods are good for you, controlling your cravings, seeing how you're responding to fasting and so much more.

Each device lasts for 14 days and of course lasting sustainable change takes time and that can be achieved with a longer-term subscription. We definitely encourage you to choose a six or 12-month subscription which are cheaper per month and allow you to not only achieve your goals but also ensure that you stick to your healthy lifestyle for the long term. You can go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. That's nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code IFPODCAST to save $30 and get one month of free dietitian support. Friends, do you want to be in the world of CGMs? It is such a cool experience and you will learn so much. So, definitely check it out and we'll put all this information in the show notes.

So, today's episode, Cynthia and I have been doing our episode 300 became multiple episodes because we got so many amazing AMA questions and we want to keep doing them because they're so fun and awesome and so many topics. We also realized that I think in the past two or three episodes, we haven't done that many fasting-specific questions. What we're going to do today is we're still doing AMA, but these are the fasting AMA questions we got because when we asked for the questions, we asked for I mean were hoping for non-fasting related questions, but we still got a lot of fasting-related questions, so this actually works out very well. To start things off, we have a question from Neva, and she says, I've been dying to ask any suggestions on balancing the Fung community perspective of, "Longer fast needed to get insulin resistance reversed, and for the autophagy needed to reduce excess skin versus Cynthia's concerns about longer fast and especially getting enough protein. This conundrum has been a problem for me."

Cynthia Thurlow: This is a great question, Neva. I think a lot of this really depends on you as an individual. If you are already metabolically healthy and at a healthy weight, then I don't think really long fasts need to be something that you need to focus on over time. However, if you're someone that is not metabolically healthy, that is insulin resistant, I think that doing longer fasts can be helpful for breaking through plateaus. I think that longer fasts can beneficial for helping with cravings. I think it can be helpful for reducing inflammation and upregulating autophagy. I think there're many, many things that we have to consider when we're trying to balance longer fasts and being able to hit our protein macros. I think that when you look at the science of poor metabolic health and you're looking at sarcopenia and you're understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in your muscles, it's important to then also understand that one of the ways that you are going to help with reversing insulin resistance is reallocating those macros, becoming more physically active, and this is a really good example of the need to experiment depending on where you are in your fasting journey. I've started to speak more openly about this that a lot of times people think fasting has to be the answer for everything. Fasting is but one strategy of many that we can utilize to ensure that we have our health and longevity kind of railed in. When people ask me questions like this, it's always in the context of, I need to know more. Are you at a healthy weight? Are you sleeping well? Do you eat an anti-inflammatory diet? Are you menopausal? Are you perimenopausal? Are you still in your peak fertile years? I really would say that the average woman under the age of 35 shouldn't be doing these really long fasts. Our bodies are just so exquisitely attuned to this kind of methodology or really understanding that our bodies are so sensitive to cues that we take from our environment when we talk about stress.

Unfortunately, I think fasting for many people has now become a strategy that they're really leaning into and doing the extremes. They want to do really long fasts, they want to over-restrict macros in some capacity or another, they don't want to sleep, they want to overexercise, and so the way to answer that question is to say, I would need to know more about your personal circumstances to make suggestions. In terms of wide overreaching comments, I would say it's really dependent on, are you metabolically flexible, what life stage are you in, and what are your goals? So, Dr. Fung and I overlap quite a bit on what we lean into. But obviously, for me, I am all about protein and maintaining muscle mass because that will help in insulin sensitivity and I don't per se see that talked about a great deal. Although most of the insulin researchers, including Ben Bikman will talk about this loss of muscle signaling, loss of insulin sensitivity as being the first site in the body of where we become insulin resistant. Melanie, what are your thoughts?

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I thought that was an incredibly comprehensive answer. I'm so happy that you pointed out the bit about the insulin resistance starting at the state of the muscle, because that's, like, one of my favorites. I have, like, a list of fun facts about metabolic health. That's one of my favorites because I think a lot of people don't realize that they probably think it starts, I don't know where, they probably don't think about where it starts, but it's really interesting that it does start at the muscle. So, yeah, I just echo everything that you said, which I think is just a slight paradigm shift, and I like how you use the word strategy. Basically, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think we don't see longer fasts as the day-to-day habit lifestyle pathway. Like, longer fasting is not your daily life.

It's a strategy to use with specific goals in mind and keeping in mind the context of everything. Your diet, your current weight, what you're looking for, how much other stress you have. Right now, I'm reading Ben Azadi's book because he's coming on my show in a few weeks. He quoted, I think, some research by Thomas Seyfried, who said, for example, that he thinks if you do, like one long, I think he said seven days fast once per year, that it would reduce your cancer risk by 95%. Again, I don't know. I think that was just his thoughts on it. Basically, it's the idea that you could use longer fasts very specifically with specific goals in mind. I think it can have a lot of benefits. But I also think people can go way overboard and in day-to-day practice, yes, getting enough protein is so, so important. While I'm able to get all the protein in a very short amount of time, a lot of people just aren't able to do that. So, I don't think they're in conflict. I think they're actually just separate goals and intentions and uses.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah. I think it's important for people to really understand at a very basic level. We're not asking anyone to have to go out and feel like you've got to research all of these different points. I can tell you, as Melanie can after talking to the experts, it's very apparent that if we really understand where insulin resistance starts from, it just starts to make sense about why it's important to as an example, like, "If you're insulin resistant, walk after a meal that really doesn't require you to do anything special. It's just understanding that with each muscle contraction, your body is using up extra glucose. When people say, I'm insulin resistant, I'm really struggling with this. What's going on? It's like, okay, we have to get back to basics. Let's not make it complicated. I think, unfortunately, what happens is that, well-meaning people sometimes make things so complicated. People don't even know where to start. Ben does a great job making things, making more complicated subjects or concepts, making them very accessible for people, so they can then take action. That's really what it comes down to. We want to be able to provide information so that people can make informed decisions and they can make those changes that are going to have a huge impact on their health.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because there's so much information and then there's so much information and context, and yet we still make these blanket binary statements. I don't know if Jason Fung actually said this, but in her quote that, "Longer fasts are needed to get insulin resistance reversed." I'm saying I'm pretty sure you can reverse insulin resistance without ever doing a "Longer fast." That would help, but it's not the only way.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, and it's interesting because someone on Twitter today posted, what's the longest fast you've ever done? My joking response is always 13 days, but not because I wanted to. I think it also speaks to the fact that finding that happy medium like a lot of people in the health and wellness space are starting to discourage these really long fasts because putting in the wrong individual can really put additional stress and strain on your HPA access and cortisol and other things. Understanding that you can get a lot of benefits from shorter fasts and shorter meaning, like less than 20 hours or less than 18 hours. Actually, the longer I fast, the longer I've been fasting, the less I do really long fasts because I just don't feel like I need to do it. 

If you look at, I always think of Ted Naiman as a good example. He's, I think, roughly my age, very lean, and he talks about this diminishing law of returns after 24 hours. I don't disagree with him because you start to think about what are the net benefits and am I losing muscle. Especially if you're north of like 40, 45, it becomes more challenging to maintain muscle mass as you get older if you're not actively working against that. Why would you do all these long fasts if you're putting yourself at risk for losing exactly the organ that is going to help you maintain one of many, help you maintain insulin sensitivity. Ss you can see, I could talk about this for hours.

Melanie Avalon: No, I love it. I'm all about it. Okay, so some more AMAs. We got some three quick ones from Nicole. One, "Is it okay to cycle your fasting times anywhere from 14 to 18 hours?"

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes, and I encourage women in particular to adjust their fasting based on where they are in their menstrual cycle and I do like variety. Just like we don't eat the same foods every day, we don't do the same types of exercise every day, I do genuinely believe that there is a benefit from keeping your body guessing, not torturing yourself. I'm not asking anyone to white-knuckle it through fasting. That is not what we are trying to suggest, but I do like moderation. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I agree 100%. Some people do really well with I mean, like me, I tend to do really well with more consistent-- I know I do well with a consistent schedule. Although I was thinking about it, actually, I do naturally fluctuate my window. It's always an evening eating window. Like, last night, for example, I went to a comedy show, actually. Do you know Taylor Tomlinson?

Cynthia Thurlow: I don't.

Melanie Avalon: She's a Netflix special and I actually wasn't familiar with her, but my friend had tickets and then couldn't go, so she just gave them to me. It's like okay, sure, I'll go. Do you like comedy shows?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I think I should probably go to them more. There's definitely a lot of health benefits to laughing, but in any case, it started early. I open my window with wine way earlier than I normally do, and that kind of bumped everything up earlier. But then I realized I still went to bed late. I was just thinking about last night that my window was open almost double of what it normally is. I'm not super rigid. Like, it has to be these hours between these times. I just go with the flow if things are changing. In general, beyond that, I agree with what you were saying about a lot of people, especially women can benefit a lot from really changing things up and listening to themselves and the effects of their cycle and hormones. So, yes, definitely. The only caveat I would have is, I think some people and I think we talked about this on a recent episode. I do think for some people who are just starting fasting and they've never fasted before, if they're not adapted to fat burning, depending on what personality type they are, they might do better.

And actually, maybe regardless of personality type, there is a benefit to, I think for a lot of people committing to a window in the beginning because you're making those adaptations. If instead just like go with the flow, it's going to be hard to be intuitive. If you're not a fat burner yet and you're not adjusted to fasting. I think having that regulation in the beginning to become metabolically flexible and understand how you should feel when you're in the fat-burning state and while fasting, I think that's when it can be helpful to be more rigid.

Cynthia Thurlow: Absolutely. Just like, when I'm teaching women, like, I have IF:45 that I run four times a year. We have a group that they're just in their second week of fasting. I always tell them, until you've got the basics down, I don't mind if you are fairly consistent with what you were doing, but when you get to a point where your body is able to utilize either glucose or fats as a fuel substrate, then you're in a position where you can start varying things. People will know that they're at that point when they don't feel like they're white knuckling through the process like they feel comfortable, they are not having headaches, they have plenty of energy. They're not feeling like they have a slump after a meal. Most people will notice that if they're kind of struggling with weight loss resistance or they've been struggling with cravings, all of the sudden things start to kind of even out for them. So, I 100% agree with you, Melanie. You definitely want to make sure you're fat-adapted.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. She has two other quick questions. One is "If you consume 10 calories via electrolytes LMNT, are you still fasting? I'll just comment on that because I just looked up LMNTs, like their line. The flavored ones are the ones that have calories. For example, their watermelon has five calories in a stick, their chocolate has five calories, but their lemon habanero, for example, has 10 calories, it's really interesting, and I'm assuming that is coming from whatever flavoring they're using. Like with lemon habanero, they're using natural habanero flavor, but then their raw unflavored has no calories. So, I do have thoughts on this. Do you have thoughts on this, Cynthia? 

Cynthia Thurlow: This is one of those nuances that if you are someone who's metabolically flexible, you're at a healthy weight. Taking in calories during a fast technically is breaking a clean fast. But if you are otherwise metabolically healthy and flexible, I don't think this is something people should stress and worry about. I do find for a lot of women as an example, because I work almost exquisitely with women that this is the type of stuff that can add up. When someone says to me, I'm weight loss resistant, I'm doing all the right things, and we start looking at a daily recall and they don't realize that they've got I mean, five calories-- 10 calories is not going to be the impetus for being weight loss resistant, but not understanding that cumulatively over time, these can be some of the things that add up that could be contributing to weight loss resistance.

It's the 50 grams or 50 calories of grapes that they eat while they're fasted or they're having like a fatty coffee or just these things can add up over time. A clean fast definition of a clean fast, if you're ingesting electrolytes that are flavored with sugars or flavored with nonnutritive sweeteners, technically that breaks a clean fast. Again, it goes back to are you metabolically flexible? If it is, I'm not stressing about that nor should you. If you are weight loss resistant, it's something to consider.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, I agree with that. I actually think with the flavors, the issue more for people would be having those flavors during the fast, even if it was zero calories because that signals to the body food type stuff, so I think it can mess with appetite regulation. That's why we've always said on this show, historically, as long as we've been working with LMNT, that the raw unflavored, so the one that I said was zero calories and that's one that has no flavors, that's the one that is clean fast friendly. The other ones we would advocate for within your eating window. And so, this is really interesting. I don't know if this is true. I think I mentioned on this show before, I interviewed Steve Hendricks for his book called The Oldest Cure in the World, and it was the history of fasting, and I talked about it.

We're actually probably going to air that episode on this show because it was just mind blowing. I just want to air it first on my Biohacking Podcast. He talks a lot about the work of Satchin Panda in his book. Satchin Panda does a lot of work on time-restricted eating and in particular circadian rhythms of it and things like that. I'm just going to read what he says because I find this really interesting. Satchin Panda, one of the things he did was he had an app where he had people logging their food intake all throughout the day, and he found out what people were actually eating. One of the takeaways was that people think they're eating way less than they are, not amount wise like time wise. People don't realize, most people are literally having some food enough that they're pretty much in the fed state the majority of the time.

He says most people eating and drinking their last calories at 10:00 or 11:00 PM, this is what Satchin Panda found. "Weren't entering fat-burning mode and repair mode until 04:00 or 05:00 AM and never reached anything like exponential burn or repair before they took their morning coffee with cream at 07:00 AM. Panda has found that just five calories, one and a half grapes are enough to keep us in a fat-making mode for six more hours. Which, I find that I don't know that's a big statement.

Cynthia Thurlow: Big statement. It's interesting because there are, I have to believe, well-meaning individuals who tell people on social media that's okay if they consume a bunch of grapes, it's okay if they have copious amounts of fat, it's okay to do all these things. I just remind people that if the average person out there is not going more than 8 to 10 hours without eating during the day, to Melanie's point, you're losing out on opportunities to use up some of the stored fuel. Just to kind of keep that in mind that cephalic phase insulin response is a real physiologic response to things that are sweet on our tongue or if our body anticipates we're going to be eating food. Really thinking thoughtfully about what position are you in? If you're really trying to get a hold of insulin resistance or you're really trying to become more metabolically healthy that you want to lean into unflavored element or save those electrolytes that are sweetened, save them for your feeding window, that's going to be a much better option.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and I think it goes both ways. One, what you just said, where people put this magical calorie like ceiling and say that if you're below that, it doesn't break your fast, which I don't know where that came from. But then on the flipside, I guess I would need the context of what this research was. It's hard for me to think that if somebody is fasted in the fat-burning state and maybe he's talking about they're not yet in the fat-burning state, but if they're deep in the fat-burning state and then they have five calories, I don't know how that would keep them out of fat burning for six more hours. I just want to know what that research was like what was he measuring?

I think it's safe to say that flavors and such are not going to help you with your fasting experience most likely and there's not some magical like if it's below these calories, it doesn't matter. If listeners would like to get LMNT and get that raw unflavored, they can actually get all the flavors free with their order. Just go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast so, remember the flavored ones in your eating window, the raw unflavored in your fasting. Okay, Nicole has one more super quick rapid-fire question. "Is coffee okay to have while fasting?" I'm guessing Nicole's probably new to our community.

Cynthia Thurlow: Here are my thoughts. If you have healthy adrenals and you're sleeping and you're not super stressed out, I think coffee is incredibly beneficial. We know there are polyphenols in coffee that can upregulate lipolysis and fat burning and fat oxidation. Someone who is not completely stressed out is sleeping well and is not in. Now, I'm going to put this out there. I interviewed Dr. Kyle Gillett for my podcast and he talked about andropause, so andropause is when men go through what's equivalent to menopause. But there's also adrenal pause. Our adrenals are not as stress resilient as we are getting older and so coffee in the right person is a wonderful thing to consume in a fasted state. If you're someone who's super stressed out and drinking that coffee overtaxes your adrenals and it pushes your cortisol up, which sends your blood glucose up, that's not a good thing.

I think it's really always in the context of you as an individual. As an overall recommendation, we do recommend bitter teas and coffee as a great option. Now, again, not coffee with cream in it. We're going to recommend black coffee, bitter teas because those are the things that are going to be beneficial. If you don't love plain coffee, you can add cinnamon which will help with insulin sensitivity. You can also add, like, high-quality salt, like Redmond, that can help with the bitterness. Those are two tips, even though I'm not a coffee drinker that I've learned along the way. What are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you answered it from that perspective. In my head, I was thinking about it literally just from the breaking or not breaking the fast. I'm really glad that you went there. I agree exactly with what you said. I'll just expand a little bit on the coffee and the clean fast or not. Plain black coffee would be, "Clean fast friendly." Coffee with cream? No. Coffee with added sugar? No. Even coffee with sweeteners. It goes back to what were just talking about giving your body mixed messages during the fast. Yes, I think that context is really important with what Cynthia said about your adrenals and where your stress levels are. Do you drink coffee, Cynthia? I know we've talked about this.

Cynthia Thurlow: I do not. Neither does my husband. The only person in my house that drinks coffee is my 15-year-old who loves espresso.

Melanie Avalon: Do you have caffeine at all?

Cynthia Thurlow: Not a lot. It's something that for me, like, I can drink green tea a couple of days a week, and I do make an effort to do that, but I ice it. I actually brew it and then I ice it and then I drink it with a straw. I've just never been someone that loves caffeinated beverages. I think it can be very overstimulating for me although it's interesting, when I did a biogenomics test over the summer, they're like, "Oh, you're very caffeine tolerant. I was like, really? Because I don't feel super caffeine tolerant. Yeah no, I'm one of those strange adults that does not love coffee. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: Well, I'm very as alcohol tolerant, literally, but literally in the genes. Caffeine, not so much. I actually was reflecting on this yesterday with gratitude. Like, I was having so much gratitude for this because historically in college I don't even know how much coffee I drank. I shudder thinking about it. I think listeners know this because I say it a lot, but I just have a spoonful of coffee every morning, literally a spoonful of liquid coffee. I was reflecting with gratitude that I'm not addicted right now to coffee or caffeine. I was like, "Oh, I was thinking about it." I was like, I just wake up and I don't really have caffeine. All my energy is pretty much not from a stimulant, which is a nice thought.

Cynthia Thurlow: I think it's become normal for people to be really dependent on stimulants to get their day going. I think for me, years ago, everyone knows this, I was an ER nurse, and I had to work nights, and I would drink Diet Pepsi, which all it did was upset my stomach. I've just learned that for me, I do better just with water, a lot of water, and I stay really well hydrated. There's a lot of other things I do to kind of get me going in the morning, as opposed to being dependent on a stimulant, which there's no judgment. It's just not the way I like to feel in the morning. It's not my happy place. But you will see me drinking green tea at least four days a week because there're a lot of health benefits from it.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, and there are a lot of health benefits to moderate coffee drinkers. I think if I was the type that could do that and didn't struggle with my sleep, I probably would but like I said, I don't process caffeine that fast, and so it's just not ideal for me. I do like it kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier with longer fasts. It's nice to have it in your back pocket. Like the night when I got up really early for Taylor Swift tickets and was sleep deprived, and I had coffee that day and I was good. It's nice to have it to pull out when you desperately need it, so, yup.

Okay. Another AMA fasting question. This is from Sarah. She says, "Help, my fasting glucose is going up." Oh, and by the way, we really need to answer Sarah's question because I think she posted this in the AMA. I think she posted it on her own in the group. She DMed me about this. She was like, "Please help." So, Sarah, we're going to try to help you. She said, "My fasting glucose is going up. I have been intermittent fasting for over two years. I usually eat lunch and dinner and I am low carb. I've been doing my best to eat 100 grams or more of protein daily. I'm 40.I haven't made any huge changes lately. My fasting glucose has been staying over 100, even after 18 hours. In March, I had my insulin checked and it was 2, 3, and 5 within two weeks on three separate occasions. I would love any advice.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Sarah, this is a great question. I would say without having more information, you're perimenopausal because you're 40. This is when we start becoming less insulin sensitive. That doesn't mean that you are insulin resistant per se, but you are becoming less insulin sensitive. I start thinking about, are you sleeping enough? Is it high-quality sleep? Are you lifting weights? Are you consuming an anti-inflammatory diet? I can't necessarily tell from what you're sharing here. Gut health is really important. I see a lot of interrelationships with really looking at the gut microbiome as something that can impact blood sugar levels. I also think about you know Melanie, I started off the podcast talking about toxins in your personal care products, Food and Environment is another one that podcast that I mentioned was Shawn Stevenson, the Model Health Show, and it was him and Mike Mutzel talking about metabolic health and also changes in fertility and the contamination theory of obesity.

I just think about other things like are you exposed to mold? Are you exposed to mycotoxins? Are you leptin resistant? I mean, there's a lot of different things that can impact what's going on. Just looking at overall labs, like what's your progesterone doing, what's your estrogen doing. There're a lot of different things that can look at this. When you say that you've been checking your blood sugar, it could be as granular as, has your glucometer been titrated? Do you need to have it looked at to see? Do you need to change your strips? There're so many things that can impact why your blood sugar is not optimal. I would say those are good things to look at and just understanding in the context of other questions we've answered on this podcast today, muscle mass is really important. Understanding that insulin resistance actually starts in the muscle.

So, are you doing resistance training? Because I still think a lot of women heading to their 40s are still doing, like, "I've got to go run 5 miles every day." I'm like, you would be better served by getting in the gym and lifting weights three days a week than doing these really long runs. The other thing to think about is we're coming off the tail end of this pandemic, and I see a lot of women who are stressed, and the stress is bumping their cortisol up, and accordingly, your glucose will go up. Really getting granular and honest with yourself about what your stress management style is like, and it's not five minutes of meditation. It really needs to be practice. Things that you do every day, as an example, I get out in nature every single day, walk my dogs, no sunglasses. When I'm done exercising, I get on my PMF mat and that is part of time that I a lot every morning to do those two things in the context of everything else that I do because it brings me so much joy. It's such something I really look forward to because it helps quiet that sympathetic nervous system. So, those are my thoughts. Just based on what you've shared, Melanie, what are your insights?

Melanie Avalon: So, where I would start, and really this is for anybody who's having this issue. What Cynthia was saying about the glucometer, it can be really hard if you're just looking at a single snapshot of a blood test at the doctor, or even if you have a glucometer where you can prick your finger. That's just one moment in time. Like Cynthia said, so many things can affect it. If anybody's struggling to figure out their blood sugar levels, I would 100% recommend doing at least a two-week round of a CGM. It's the most eye-opening thing. I honestly think everybody should feel like mandatory, like life required, that everybody does two weeks of CGM at some point because what it does is it's a device that you wear on your arm, it's painless to put on, and it measures your blood sugar via your interstitial fluid, and it gives you a picture of your blood sugar. Is it every five minutes? Regardless, it shows you how your blood sugar is changing.

With that, you can actually find patterns and you can see is your fasting blood sugar actually high. It staying high or is it dropping and dipping and then going up? What's actually happening? It gives so much clarity to what might be the cause. We love a company called NutriSense and they're actually a sponsor on today's episode. You can listen to that ad for more information, but you can get $30 off and one month of free support from a dietitian because something that's really cool is you can actually, through the app, talk to somebody who will talk to you about your findings. So that can be actually pretty helpful. Just go to nutrisense.io/ifpodcast and use the code, IFPODCAST and that will get you $30 off and one month of free dietitian support.

If it is something where a lot of people do benefit from getting a subscription with that because it can be really helpful to go longer than two weeks to really get a good picture. That's where I would start, just to see what the actual data is and then see what might be the factors that are causing it to be high. Because her insulin, how do you feel about her insulin being 2 is low and 3 is low?

Cynthia Thurlow: Yeah, my general recommendation is between 2 to 5. It could be impacted by where she was in her menstrual cycle or a lot of different factors. I love that you brought up the CGM because that can give a much more complete picture. For me, it's like glucometers, just like blood pressure cuffs are super helpful, but it's like at that one specific time, that's when you're getting that metric. I do agree fervently that having a continuous glucose monitor is an even better option because you can then see the real net impact of sleep, stress, exercise, etc., on your blood sugar in real-time, as opposed to having to prick yourself 10 times a day. And some people prefer that. I personally don't like that at all. I'll be totally transparent.

Melanie Avalon: And this is like a really good case study example. I don't know how often Sarah was checking, but for example, she's saying my fasting glucose has been over 100 after 18 hours. Some people will find when they're using a CGM, that when they're fasting, like 12 hours and 13 hours and 14 hours and 15 hours that it's low, and then when they get even longer into the fast because of their stress hormones from the fast, that it actually starts going up again. So that might be a pattern. I'm not saying that's what's happening with Sarah, but I know that's a pattern that people often experience, and that's something where that would be something to address and fine tune and try to make that not be the case. It might be something where you think if you just checked it at 18 hours that it's been high that whole time when actually it hasn't. That's why CGM can just be a game changer. Are you wearing one right now, Cynthia?

Cynthia Thurlow: I am not. I'm taking a break. I used one gosh 18 months straight. I just got to a point where I'm very aware of the things that will raise my blood sugar. There're things I do conscientiously throughout my day to make sure that I can manage and mitigate a blood sugar response. The foods that did for me cause blood sugar rises that were beyond my norm, like plantains, which is so sad because I love plantains or whether it's gluten-free flowers and a cookie or cake. I just don't eat those things very often. For me, it just has created an awareness of the net impact of taking a walk after exercise. I don't necessarily feel like I need to wear them all the time. How about you?

Melanie Avalon: I'm glad you said that because that made me think of another benefit or something that people can troubleshoot with a CGM as somebody DMed me about this the other day on Instagram. Some people will be fasting and randomly get cravings, like sugar cravings or hungry, and they don't know why. That can be really beneficial to be wearing a CGM because you can see if when you get those cravings, are you having a blood sugar drop or are you not. That can help you kind of figure out what might be going on there. I haven't worn one in a while, actually, I have it in my calendar. I want to put one on pretty soon. It's on my to-do list. I have to put one on when. I actually am dressed up and going out so I can make a reel from it. That's what's been keeping me from doing it. Do you switch arms when you do it that long?

Cynthia Thurlow: I do. Left is my preference because I'm right-hand dominant, but I do switch off. And it's funny. I have one more and I've been trying to decide when I want to put my last one on, so I've been debating. I'm like I don't want it to be when I'm away on vacation or if I'm traveling. I want it to be when I'm home so I can kind of get a really good sense of all the things that I do during the day to stay as metabolically healthy as possible.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, that's the timing of it. Got to figure that out.

Cynthia Thurlow: Mm-hmm.

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Okay, I think we have time for one more question. Lastly, we have a question from Natalie. She says, "How come sometimes it's easy to fast and other times I can barely make it 16 hours?" Does age, cycle, or perimenopause changes have anything to do with the way we fast? How can we get comfortable fluctuating between 3 to 5 pounds knowing we didn't eat that much? But we have water weight and bloating, so how can we not let it ruin our vibe? Random thoughts by a 40-something.

Cynthia Thurlow: Well, Natalie, this is a great question, and yes, this is the blessing/curse of perimenopause the 10 to 15 years preceding menopause. So, from my perspective, there are reasons why it is harder to fast in the luteal phase when progesterone predominates versus the follicular phase, which is right after you've had your menstrual cycle, and the time preceding when you ovulate. It's much easier to fast in the follicular phase when the estrogen predominates, you're more insulin sensitive. You can go away with harder workouts, you can likely last longer. I spend a lot of time talking about this in my book and on a lot of podcasts, including this one that I'm really a fan of women being very cognizant of where they are in their menstrual cycle in order to ensure that they have a lot of success with fasting or taking a break from fasting.

I'm not a fan of fasting five to seven days preceding your menstrual cycle. You can definitely do 12 hours or 13 hours of digestive rest without any issues. And, yeah, this is why I don't recommend people weigh themselves every day. You can have fluctuations of 3 to 5 pounds due to water, due to macro changes. Did you have more carbs? Did you have less carbs? Have you been exercising? What's your sleep like? What's your stress management like? The last little tidbit that I'll add is that perimenopause is when sleep becomes more important, stress management becomes more important. Lifting weights becomes more important. It also becomes more important that we're leaning into anti-inflammatory nutrition. If you're not already doing some of those things and you're looking to kind of change things up, I would encourage you to lean into those. Melanie, what are your thoughts? 

Melanie Avalon: This is so interesting. I almost have the opposite advice, which works well because I think different things work for different people. Because you were saying don't weigh yourself every day.

Cynthia Thurlow: Yes. I think it's like a once-a-week thing. And this is what I can tell you after working with thousands and thousands of men and women over the past 20 years, there are people who have a personality type that they can weigh themselves once a week as a check in. I always encourage people to be very mindful of how do your clothes fit, how do you feel? But there are certain types of personalities. It's not specific to a gender, that it's a control mechanism. Their whole day is they're either having a good day or a bad day based on what that number is when they step on their scale. There're so many things that can impact that number that I always say if you're that type of person and your entire day is a win or a loss based on what that number is, and you're not going to have a good day if you've gained 1 pound, that's not a healthy mindset. So that's where my concern stems from, is do you have a healthy relationship with the scale? Because affectionately, I always say the scale is a liar. It is not a reflection of a lot of other metrics. This is where I will tell people to get their body fat measured, like doing a Bod Pod, which if anyone's not familiar with that, it's a little egg-shaped device, but it'll actually measure how much muscle mass to body fat you have. And that's a much more accurate metric. Actually, my trainer, that's what she uses and that's what I use, I probably do it twice a year. That actually gives me better information than just simply stepping on a scale. Unless you have a scale that is giving you a metric about body fat percentages.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, my answer it actually is similar. It just has a slightly different manifestation because I agree 100% with everything that you just said that the weight fluctuates. There're so many factors that go into it. People can get caught up in this granular number, kind of like the CGM. They see this one number at this one time and they attach all of this meaning to it when it might not be an accurate picture of what's actually happening. I think for some people there actually is a benefit to weighing every single day. The interesting thing is you have to do it for a little bit to start seeing the trend. For some people, if they weigh every single day, tracking it in an app, there's an app called Happy Scale that's really awesome. If you weigh it every single day, it'll show your actual weekly average. You can see your trends over time and you can see what's actually happening. And so, it kind of shows you what your "True weight likely is?" And it requires a bit of data. That's why I'm saying it takes little bit to actually get the benefit from this and kind of change your mindset surrounding it, because when you actually commit and I'm not saying everybody should wear every day, but I'm saying this might help some people, if you do something like use Happy Scale, weigh every single day, after a few weeks, you'll actually be able to see that those numbers that look like you gained weight actually don't mean anything. It'll make like graphs so you can see over time what's actually happening. I think for some people that can really help. Other people might not be able to get beyond what Cynthia was saying, where regardless of knowing the overall trend, they just get caught up in that number. In that case, I don't think they should be weighing every day. I think you just really need to know yourself where you are. I know Gin was obsessed with the Shapa scale. Shapa, have you used that?

Cynthia Thurlow: I have not.

Melanie Avalon: It's the one that gives you a color rather than a number. It's grays to greens. The color indicates if you've, like, stayed the same, if you've lost weight or if you've gained weight. It also uses a similar to Happy Scale, it's going based on your average, not on that weight right at the moment. A lot of people really like that. But yeah, I think just knowing that there're a lot of factors going in can be really, really helpful. She says she's low carb and eating lunch and dinner, but not what she's eating. What you're eating can have a huge effect as well. Even things like sodium content in food and processed foods versus not. If some foods are inflammatory for you that might have an effect. There're just a lot of factors that go into it. I just think having kindness for yourself and this is where working with a therapist can be really helpful as well. I don't know what I would do without seeing my therapist every week.

Cynthia Thurlow: I love that you brought up the mental health piece because I think women as and we're all guilty of this, I'm by no means am I perfect at all. I do think that there is a certain amount of grace that we need to give ourselves. I think for women, in particular, women that are in perimenopause and menopause, when all the things that we used to do no longer work well, it can be a huge mindset shift. Like, I'm in a good place now, but 10 years ago or even eight years ago, I definitely was and I was like, what's going on? Understanding that with these changes in our bodies, we just have to make some adjustments in order to optimize our health and wellness. I wasn't even aware of that type of scale that you mentioned Gin liked so much that whether it's red light, green light, or yellow light, I think that's a better alternative to just one metric as a number.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, 100%. So, okay, well, we did not get through all of our fasting AMA questions, so we will pick that up next week, and then if we get through them, then we can do some fun AMAs as well after that. Not that these aren't fun, but some other topics. So, this has been absolutely wonderful. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com they can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode303. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out and then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Cynthia is @cynthia_thurlow_ and I think that is all things.

Cynthia Thurlow: It sounds good. For the listeners who've been sending me DMs, we will definitely be answering some hormone questions. We got such a wonderful array of topics to go over. We've been just trying to keep them really well organized, but we will definitely be answering some of those hormone questions too.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome, awesome. All right, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Cynthia Thurlow: Sounds good.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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