Category Archives for "Intermittent Fasting"

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Jan 21

Episode 353: Skipping Breakfast, Fasting In The Media, ProLon, Podcast Prep, Lyme Disease, Inflammation, The Keto Diet, And More!

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Autophagy Modulates Borrelia burgdorferi-induced Production of Interleukin-1β (IL-1β)

Welcome to Episode 353 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Carolynn - IF and Lyme Disease

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #222 - Craig Emmerich

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 353 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 353 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi everyone. Vanessa, I realized we can talk about two fasting guests. We both interviewed a fasting guest since talking to each other.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, should we start with? Yeah, I've been wanting to know how yours went with Valter Longo.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so I interviewed Valter Longo and you interviewed... Wait, how do you say his first name?

Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Satchin Panda.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's Satchin, like Satchin. Yeah. Okay. I don't know why I cannot get his name ingrained in my head. So, Valter Longo will be on this show. So listeners will, actually, I think they will have already heard it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So he was last episode. Oh my goodness. So he can debrief.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
But if you haven't heard the episode. I did want to clarify for listeners one little thing about the episode. So this is actually really good timing because I talked with him about, we talked about breakfast and he is very anti -skipping breakfast.

Melanie Avalon:
So he was pointing out a lot of studies about breakfast linked to mortality. Well, what are your thoughts on this?

Vanessa Spina:
So there was a study recently that came out, and I think I was texting you that the interview that I did with Gin, former co -host of yours, on my podcast, she brought it up and she was really breaking it down really well and sort of brought up all the different points.

Vanessa Spina:
So I know we also talked a lot about how there's been so many clickbait headlines in the last year about intermittent fasting, but she explained a lot of the reasons why it may appear that skipping breakfast could lead to increased mortality.

Vanessa Spina:
And she said it went crazy through her community, her intermittent fasting community that she has online. And I think that she's probably right. Basically, I think she was mostly saying that the data was skewed with people who tended to have a lot of other bad habits that were not supportive of a healthy lifestyle.

Vanessa Spina:
And I personally have started having my first meal again. I do two meals a day and I've made that switch and I consider that to be this form of circadian fasting. But I still sometimes will not have breakfast if I'm not hungry yet in the morning, but I do think that it can offer some advantages and it just depends on what you're after.

Vanessa Spina:
And I also think when you're younger, you can get away with more fasting, especially you can get away with more like OMAD style. But I do think that when you get older, that it's important if you want to protect your lean body mass, do you have more opportunities in the day to trigger muscle protein synthesis?

Vanessa Spina:
So I know we have like a little bit different personal approaches with that, but I like that we have different, you know, approaches. And I also never feel like one pattern is set in stone. So it's kind of a long answer.

Vanessa Spina:
But that's interesting that he's very against that because Mark Madsen and, you know, even like Satchin Panda, they have no real issue with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, okay, that was ridiculously informative. Thank you. When did that study come out? The one that Gin talked about?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know, but I've just been hearing about it like in the last few months. And I tend to not pay too much attention to that kind of stuff when it comes up, because it's often, I know what kind of study it usually is.

Vanessa Spina:
And I don't get overly excited about a new study that has something negative to say about intermittent fasting. And I know that I know my science behind my approach and that kind of thing. I wish I could recall the title of it and recall everything that Jin said about it because she broke it down really well when we were talking about it, but I haven't read it.

Vanessa Spina:
So I can't really speak to it that much.

Melanie Avalon:
in a few episodes, we could read it and we could talk about it because I would love to talk about it having read it. So I'll actually put it in there at prep so that we can prep for it. That'd be fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because my just initial thoughts are kind of things that you talked about which is well epidemiological data and like the healthy user bias. So basically people that tend to skip, so people who tend to eat breakfast maybe following other healthy lifestyle habits and we've been told for so long that like that you shouldn't skip breakfast.

Melanie Avalon:
So so people who skip breakfast might be more likely to like not engaging in other lifestyle behaviors that support a healthy diet, which is what I just said.

Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly what Jin said. She said it was healthy user bias and it was exactly what you just said.

Melanie Avalon:
There's that. And it was funny though. So in the episode, and by the way, I really, really enjoyed the episode. Oh, and Vanessa knows I'm so bummed listeners. I'm so bummed because I find doing video very energetically draining.

Melanie Avalon:
But occasionally I do it if I want to capture some video if it's a very important guest like Valter Longo. So I got already I was doing a video interview and I thought I was recording it. And I was not I was just recording the audio and it was a tragedy, but that's okay.

Melanie Avalon:
It happened. And as Vanessa said, at least I got the audio. So that's a good reframe. But something else he said, and I was telling you this offline Vanessa, but oh yeah, about the breakfast studies.

Melanie Avalon:
I said that a lot of them are funded by the breakfast food industry, which I have seen. Because when I was writing for my, my book, What When Wine, I was looking up breakfast studies. And I so many times I would go to the bottom and it was like funded by Quaker Oats or funded by, you know, all of these breakfast cereal companies, Kellogg's.

Melanie Avalon:
But he said they did a meta analysis and they found out over, I guess overwhelmingly wasn't the case. I don't know. So that was the only part of the conversation that I wanted to clarify because I, I didn't push him as much as I think I could have.

Melanie Avalon:
I did like a little bit, but I also didn't want to, you know, be crazy.

Vanessa Spina:
Was it actually his study? Maybe it was his study.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm not sure he made it sound like it was his study. I'll have to go look later. He has a lot of studies though, but I had one other thought about it. I just know that when I, and again, I would love to read that study that Gin was referring to and possibly him.

Melanie Avalon:
I also think there's an issue, the timing of what we qualify as breakfast, because I think there's this idea that breakfast is like, super early, but I think you can have like depending on your circadian rhythm.

Melanie Avalon:
How do I say this?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it's when you break your fast. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So what even is breakfast? If people's circadian rhythms are different, okay, for example, me. I don't eat breakfast, but if I were to eat breakfast in my circadian rhythm, it would easily be lunch to other people.

Melanie Avalon:
What does that mean then? What do you extrapolate from that data? I think it's complicated. I did a long post on this and I can put a link to it notes, but when I went and like sat down, it wasn't epidemiological data.

Melanie Avalon:
It was controlled clinical data looking at the release of hormones based on eating timing. And it really didn't look like you should be eating super early based on the hormonal profile that was released.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it seemed like, and this was just from the studies I was reading, but the hormones most in line with what when you would actually be eating or a little bit later. Cause like when you first wake up, it's like cortisol.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like anti -hunger hormones, if that makes sense.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I can tell you what Dr. Satchin Panda says.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, yes, that's segue because Vanessa interviewed Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Linda. I love his name. It was probably the interview that I most wanted to have with any guest. And I was telling you, it took me like a year because he's so busy. And he's one of those scientists that is in the lab a lot.

Vanessa Spina:
And I finally got him booked and I was super excited. And I just am such a big fan of his work. His book is on my, in front of me, I stared it all the time, the circadian code. It's so good. So he's done most of the research on time restricted feeding that really, you know, sort of, I guess put intermittent fasting on the map similar to Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Mark Madsen. But he also discovered a couple other things like melanopsin, which is this protein in our eye, some of it's in our skin that detects your circadian rhythm. So he's done some really fascinating research, but he was kind of one of the first ones to really look at meal timing.

Vanessa Spina:
And he says, you know, like even healthy food, eating at the wrong time is junk food, which I love. But so he says that your day starts the night before you should get in bed and be in bed for at least eight hours.

Vanessa Spina:
So you get around seven hours minimum of sleep. And you should delay breakfast by one to two hours. And he said, it's because when you first wake up, you still have a lot of melatonin going and that it's better to wait one to two hours based on the rhythms of melatonin cortisol production.

Vanessa Spina:
Then Dr. Jack Cruz, you know, he really popularized this leptin reset. And he says you should eat within an hour of waking and that it's because you need to sync up with your circadian rhythm. So you know, there's people have different beliefs on on it.

Vanessa Spina:
My favorite, you know, protein scientist, Dr. Don Lehmann says, doesn't matter when you have that first meal, your breakfast is your breakfast. It's when you break your fast, you can have it at seven, 10, at 12, you know, whatever works for you.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's whenever you you break your fast, essentially. So it's just it's funny that we always associate it with eating within like an hour to a waking and, you know, with certain like, we really associate it with the morning time.

Vanessa Spina:
But the interview with him was amazing. It was really enjoyable to get to to finally ask him some questions that I wanted to ask him for a long time. So yeah, it was great that we both got to interview such amazing, fasting scientists who have contributed so much to our knowledge of, you know, the power of fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
That is so exciting. Were you nervous?

Vanessa Spina:
A little bit. They had asked for the questions before, which I usually don't send. I stopped sending questions a year ago because I preferred to have a more spontaneous reaction to my questions. And then I don't want them to think that they're going to go in that order either.

Vanessa Spina:
Sometimes you just, you know, I like to have more conversational episodes or interviews. So it's like we can flow in this direction, then we can come back and then this sparks something else and we'll see.

Vanessa Spina:
So I stopped sending questions, but they asked for them. So I sent them before. It was interesting because he said when we got on that all the questions were good, but he didn't want to answer one of them.

Vanessa Spina:
And it was about a question that I said, well, what do you make of all the media that talk about how caloric restriction and time restricted eating are essentially the same thing and all the benefits of time restricted eating are coming from caloric restriction.

Vanessa Spina:
And he says that he doesn't like to address that because it just kind of like gives power to the media that, you know, gives them maybe a sense of like recognition or something when really like they don't fully understand the mechanism.

Vanessa Spina:
So I thought that was that that makes sense. And that's my approach with a lot of this stuff too. Like you have to realize that a lot of media, they want you to click on their articles. So they often will sensationalize things, you know, and yeah, we granted we know that, but it's a good reminder, you know, to know that they sensationalize things to get us to get our attention to hook our attention so that we click on their links, go read their articles, spend time on their website.

Vanessa Spina:
So they're incentivized to make things sound a certain way or to make take certain studies and make very like enticing or controversial headlines. And sometimes that's all people see is the headlines.

Vanessa Spina:
And so they don't, you know, always get the full, the full picture. So yeah, I thought that was interesting, but I wasn't too, too nervous, but it was probably the interview that I was the most like anticipating, you know, getting ready for spending a lot of time preparing for what about you?

Vanessa Spina:
I know you've interviewed him before, so wait.

Melanie Avalon:
quick question about the prepping. It's funny. So I have a similar approach in that I make my prep documents and I have tons of questions and then I send those to my assistant. She like cleans it up and then she's I have like a whole system.

Melanie Avalon:
Then she sends me back because the okay, I send her because the way my prep documents are set up. I have like tons of questions with notes under each question organized into sections. So I sent her that and then she sends me back just the questions without my notes.

Melanie Avalon:
And then I pick out the questions that I want to send to them. So I like save for myself the like good questions. So then they don't know not good questions, but the ones that I want to be like very spontaneous and that they don't it's not because I want to like surprise them or trip them up.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just because like you said, I like having an element of spontaneity. And so I basically send them a document with like very basic questions that they probably would have anticipated I would have asked anyways, but I keep for myself all the like special questions.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's like a blend of what you do.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's funny how we have our own styles. And I have to say, when I do send the questions, people always really appreciate it. So it's nice that you do that. I just don't anymore. There's just a lot of things that I don't anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
So people sometimes, like I was interviewing Dr. Dom Bagostino yesterday. And he's like, I don't think you sent me the questions this time. And I was like, nope.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so fun.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but it's yeah, I find it more fun because it's like I can just Ask you whatever I want and I feel like people get in this state of like They're prepared to answer anything too. So you can like I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Anyway, it's all It's it's fun to talk about like our different approaches to things

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I wonder if anybody else finds it interesting. I find it so, I could talk about this for like an hour. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's a lot of psychology that goes into it because you and I both host and produce our shows. You know, we don't, like you listen to a lot of podcasts, like they have all these producers and you know, there's a media company running everything for them and they book guests for them and they send them the questions even sometimes.

Vanessa Spina:
So we're our own producers as well. So there's a lot of that that goes into it, like producing.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I mean, I do have like an amazing assistant for both shows that help so much. But yeah, we're like kind of spearheading. Like I think we're just very, you know, hands on involved in the production.

Melanie Avalon:
I just had an epiphany though. I think a reason I send the questions ahead of time, this may be, this may be the main reason I do it. Do you know what it is? No. I think I do it because I want them to take me seriously going into the interview because I think being a like young blonde stereotype, I feel like if I send them questions that show I've read their work and if they're like nuanced questions, then they'll be like, I need to take this interview more seriously.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm not saying that they wouldn't take me seriously, but it kind of lets me like paint a picture of my mind before they've talked to me, if that makes sense. Yeah, it totally makes sense. I like have seared in my head because David Sinclair was one of the first people I emailed on the biohacking show.

Melanie Avalon:
And I remember I sent him over the questions and he emailed back and he said, wow, that's a deep dive. And I like have that email like imprinted in my memory. That's awesome. So, okay, wait, but I had one other one other thought.

Melanie Avalon:
What did you ask me right before then? Oh, you asked me how it felt integrating Valter. So that has also been a surreal trajectory. And that's also interesting to see how far you've come because I've actually interviewed him three times.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's crazy to think. I mean, I'm still like an on it's amazing, but it's just really interesting to think back to like the first time I emailed him, which was for it was on this show. And it was forever ago.

Melanie Avalon:
It was when it was when Gin was still on the show. And I was just like so nervous. And the second time was on the biohacking show. I'm not sure if I was that nervous. And this time I was like, let's do this.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I'm good. And I'm not, but I'm not saying that to say that I get, I don't ever want to lose my sense of awe and gratitude and everything. It's just really interesting to see your progression. I think like, as you become more comfortable with podcasting, because it's been so long, although Vanessa, I'm never done in person.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm really scared about Dave Asprey. What am I going to do without my notes? Or I guess I'm going to have my notes. Yeah. Why wouldn't you have them? I'm so used to like looking at my, I don't know.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like different when you're in person. Yes. You have to be like more engaging with the person. Yes. And there's going to be like a photographer there. And it's going to be so stressful.

Vanessa Spina:
No, you're gonna love it. It's gonna bring out the best in you. Okay It's a challenge is you right like you know, they they bring out the best in you so I might drink some wine before Yeah, why not? Tell anybody

Melanie Avalon:
What when wine? I know. Obviously, taking shots of wine in the car.

Vanessa Spina:
I've never taken alcohol when I'm nervous. Like I, oh really? I've never tried that like for speaking or anything, but I usually will fast. I usually will fast and that provides, I think it's probably because of the GABA.

Vanessa Spina:
Like if you get into ketosis, you know, it provides some GABA for you. It makes you more GABA dominant. So I usually fast and it gives me more of like a sense of, you know, control and preparedness and like presentness being present.

Vanessa Spina:
That always works for me when I'm speaking or something, but sometimes it can get to be like a little bit too anxiety producing, but yeah, you gotta just ride the wave.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
I always, always, always, always find that it comes down to how prepared I am. And I know you're going to be super prepared. You probably won't even need notes.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, so thought one, I'm always fasted. I don't, if I was in the fed state, I'd be a wreck. I would be like lethargic and fasting is great for having your mind like on point. That's so interesting that you've never taken, so you've never drank to, you said to help with nerves.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, no.

Melanie Avalon:
I haven't. I have. Well, one of the episodes, cause we're doing two, and one of them is going to be listener Q and A. So I'll have to have notes cause that won't be memorized. I think what I'm gonna do though, I asked in the group for spicy questions, cause he does so many interviews.

Melanie Avalon:
So I want to make it very unique. And I got a lot of good spicy questions from listeners. So, do you like that idea? Like a spicy question episode? For sure. Awesome. And the thing I'll do like a fasting and coffee like themed episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and I did one other, Valter Longo comment. This was so funny. This interview came about because he didn't reach out. I didn't reach out, but ProLon reached out. And I responded. So ProLon is the fasting mimicking diet, which I forgot.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever tried it?

Vanessa Spina:
it? Nope, and I never will.

Melanie Avalon:
Sorry. Sorry. Not sorry. Tell us how you really feel. I have tried it. I think I tried it though in a time in my life when it wasn't really the time to try it. I would be open to trying it again. And a lot of listeners have tried it and a lot of listeners have provided feedback.

Melanie Avalon:
So I do think it's really valuable for a lot of people. I did ask him if it could be done in a one meal a day situation. Like could you eat all the, all the ProLon in one meal? Because if I were to do it, I think that's how I would have to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
He said you could. He said he thought that would be hard. I was like, that won't be hard.

Vanessa Spina:
That's a good idea of how you could integrate it, you know, into your, your lifestyle. I think, you know, for some people, it might be helpful. I, I just, it would not be for me. I find that I have a pretty strong fasting muscle.

Vanessa Spina:
So I would just fast. Like I just wouldn't, I don't, I don't understand the point of eating something, but I know that it's just like low protein, but I did that for so many years as a vegetarian and it never did anything really great for me.

Melanie Avalon:
But well, it's low protein and it's severely calorie restricted.

Vanessa Spina:
Then you're just on a low calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, but what's interesting though is I guess because of how they specifically formulated it and in their clinical data. And again, I realized I was talking to the man who like created this, but he was very convincing with their clinical data.

Melanie Avalon:
But basically the physiological state, and so for listeners, I guess we haven't really defined what this is. So this is the fasting mimicking diet. Valter Longo developed it. It is a five day diet plan where the purpose of it, and he talks about this in his book, but basically, and his book is called the longevity diet, which isn't just about fasting mimicking diet.

Melanie Avalon:
It's about the fasting mimicking diet and then his overall longevity diet that he prescribes for like life. It creates the physiological blood biomarkers of fasting pretty like equivocably. So like ketone wise, insulin wise, IGF wise.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically it's creating the markers of the fasting state, but you're still eating. And so ProLon is these, it's like soup packets and some bars and this like vitamin drink thing and algae pills. Sounds miserable.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, actually I should look and see if they are like spirulina pills that come with it. It comes with some sort of like algae pills. Ah, they probably are. If people want to watch about it, there was a documentary on Netflix.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember this one Vanessa? It's when I was hosting with Gin, I think it was like five different episodes about help things. I was excited because I knew literally like half a guest because one episode was the, it was Gwyneth Paltrow's.

Melanie Avalon:
That's what it was. Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Lab show. Did you watch that on Netflix? I didn't. She has a cold episode with Wim Hof. She has a fasting episode. So in the fasting episode she interviews Dr. Alan Goldhammer who I've had on my show and she does the fasting mimicking diet and she has Valter on the show. If listeners want to kind of get a feel for it. So the studies are really, really interesting on the health effects and like the effects on the immune system and especially like help for cancer.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm really interested by it. I just haven't personally successfully done it. But if listeners would like to try it and report back would love to hear your experiences and you can get 10% off. The link for that is prolonlife.com.

Melanie Avalon:
So P -R -O -L -O -N -L -I -F -E .com. The coupon code IFPODCAST will get you 10% off. And it is a, I don't know if it's, would it be a nonprofit if all of the money, I guess it's not a nonprofit, but all of the money goes back into fasting research.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, but that's the funny thing is I, so basically what went down was ProLon reached out about actually sponsoring the show. And I was like, well, I don't think it's the best fit for sponsoring, but I was like, I'm happy to have Valter on the show to talk about everything.

Melanie Avalon:
So they were like, yeah, great. So he came on, it was great, but he won't actually like mention the word ProLon. Isn't that funny? Why? I don't know. So like, like literally like, I don't know what it was, but at one point, like what I had said was like prepping him to say ProLon and he wouldn't say it.

Melanie Avalon:
He was like, these programs out there, blah, blah, blah, blah. I can't really name them. I was like, oh.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
need to know why. And then like later in the show, I was like, wait, am I allowed to say ProLon? So like later in the show, I was like, I didn't even say it. I mean, I said, I said it earlier, but so later I was like, yeah, and you know, these programs out there for five days.

Melanie Avalon:
So I stopped like, stop saying the word as well. That's bizarre. I wonder why I think it's because he doesn't want to be, I'm assuming. I don't know. I think it's because he doesn't want to be associated with like selling ProLon.

Melanie Avalon:
But it's his creation, right? I know. I want to go back and read the transcript when we get it back from the editors about what he said specifically, because it was he said something about it that was confusing to me.

Melanie Avalon:
That's curious. The fun time. It's so crazy that we get to do these amazing interviews. And I'm so happy. I'll have to, when does your episode come out with Dr. Panda?

Vanessa Spina:
It should be, actually it's coming out next Monday, which will be November 14th, so it should already be out.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, I can't wait to listen to it.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. I can't wait to listen to the Valter one. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
I got excited because I could see he was at USC and I went to USC and I could like recognize the brick walls because they use a lot of the same brick. That's a nice feeling. Made me happy. Nostalgic.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I know. Last podcast question I swear. Seems like you turn around your episodes pretty fast. Do you do that typically turn them around fast? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
I do and it just depends though. So I kind of do a lot of things more instinctually. So I kind of like feel out when I think a certain guest, like the timing of it will be good. It's really not like a technical way of doing it, but I just know.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, it's time for this one. And then it's like, it's time for this. Like I just know, I just know what it's like. I have this feeling of when a certain episode should go out. So like right now I've got like about 30 episodes, like pre-recorded.

Vanessa Spina:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 30 because I'm going to be taking a break when the baby comes. Right, right, right. Okay. Sorry. So now I'm like scheduling them all, but I also leave a little bit of room to like move things around.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, if the week, the week before comes and I'm, I know what's coming out on Monday and I feel like it should be a different guest and I'll change it. So I really go by into intuition. Intuition.

Vanessa Spina:
And I just like feel it out. Wow. Okay. So sometimes I'll have like an episode go out, like I'll record it on a Thursday. And then I'm like, this has to go out on Monday. And then other times I'm like, this doesn't need to go out right now.

Vanessa Spina:
And it'll be out in like a few months. So it's very much like an intuitive thing for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Yeah. I feel like I'm sort of similar. I typically have a month or two. In the past, it was like three, but I feel like now I'm a little bit only a month out of episodes. And then I pretty much go based on timeline, but sometimes I'll move things around based on, yeah, if I'm feeling something.

Melanie Avalon:
Sometimes I'll get really, really excited and I just have to bump up the episode. Yeah. Which is, but that's, that's rarer though, because I'm just so usually very excited about all of them. Yeah, I get that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Podcasts.

Vanessa Spina:
This thing is so fun. It is the best. I'm so thankful for it every day too. I think about that a lot, especially because it wasn't a thing before, you know? So, I'm so glad.

Vanessa Spina:
grateful. Yeah, it's just amazing. It's just amazing. I am so like, I feel like we both were born to do this and I'm so thankful for it every day. It's just awesome. Just love long form media and I feel like it's changing the world, you know, not just like, I'm not just like our podcast, but like, all the podcasts out there are changing the way that we have longer, deeper conversations about topics and we're learning, we're teaching each other.

Vanessa Spina:
And this is like, for me, this is what the internet is all about. It's like sharing knowledge with each other, you know, sharing long, deep conversations, not just like sound bites and having other people interpret things for us, like we could just go right to the source.

Vanessa Spina:
We don't have to read an article about a study anymore. We can hear the actual scientists talking about his results and his intentions and his methodologies and it's amazing. Like, I truly think this is one of the best parts of the internet.

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. Two thoughts to that. Thought one, especially in our world where everything's like TikTok and Instagram and like clickbait and so short. And even the news is like, you know, short little clips.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you said, it's like long form. It's like a conversation. I just, I love that so much. Like it really allows time to actually dive into things and get to know people. Like I love that we get to actually know our guests.

Melanie Avalon:
Like so many of my friends, like you, so many of my friends are guests from the show. And then the second thing, oh, I think one of my favorite things about it is it's like Christmas in that, you know, publicists and agents will be pitching me guests pretty much every day.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like Christmas because I get to like pick what I want to, what I want to play with, not play with, but I want to like read and engage in, you know. But okay, play that sounds awful. Play with. But like, it feels like being at the store and like, it's like, I get to pick out like my favorite thing that I want to engage with.

Melanie Avalon:
That's, that was the phrase, engage with.

Vanessa Spina:
I totally got what you're saying. It just sounded like pictures will come in and normally I'm like no no no but sometimes I see things I'm like oh yes like that's fun and it can really be like whatever like go back to the intuition whatever I just really want to learn about so yeah

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love that feeling. I'm like, yes, let's book it.

Melanie Avalon:
So awesome. Last podcast comment, I swear, and I told you this via text, but I think I told you I'm coming around now. I understand now why you're so attracted to Elon Musk. You didn't tell me this by text.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, did you listen to my voice message? I think I said it in a voice message.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, voice messages are hard for me because like most of the time, most of the day I'm with Luca. So it's hard for me to listen because he's like always talking at the same time. So I can listen when he's like napping.

Vanessa Spina:
I'll have put like earphones in and then I listen, but then yeah, sometimes. I don't click on them right away. So maybe like it got pushed up or something. I'm

Melanie Avalon:
I'm so glad we are revisiting this then. Okay, just for a very brief. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
discussion. I need to know everything. Listeners are like, Oh, gosh.

Melanie Avalon:
one of those episodes. I know. Okay, so here's the thing. I think I'd only listened or watched one interview with him prior to this, which was also Joe Rogan, but it was the one where he was high on it and like NASA got mad at him.

Vanessa Spina:
It's not a good one.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So that is not, so that one, that's like not his typical vibe. I take it.

Vanessa Spina:
No, I mean, he was very eloquent and he said a lot of interesting things in it that I think about all the time. But yeah, I think a lot was made of the fact that he was not sober and etc. I just don't think it was like maybe his best show.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, is it like that meme? Have you seen that meme? Have you seen that meme where it's like, I got to find it, but it's like, have you ever like left a social situation and just thought not my best work?

Melanie Avalon:
I think that sometimes. Yeah, that's hilarious. Not my best work. So that was probably that meme for him. But yeah, I liked that interview, but that was the only one I'd watched. So I watched, he was just on Rogan again, and he was very not high.

Melanie Avalon:
He was very like sober. I don't know if he was sober, but it was a different vibe. I was like, Oh, yeah, I see it. Yeah, I see it. You see it. Mm hmm. I actually thought he looked attractive and he was very smart.

Melanie Avalon:
He pauses. He's a pauser. Have you noticed that?

Vanessa Spina:
And I always think about the fact that he's just, I think Joe Rogan asked him on that first interview what it was like being in his brain and he said it's constant explosions.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's a lot to deal with.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and he's just like, he's like, I don't know, I think he's like a hero, like he's trying to help humanity. I really truly believe that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that was my takeaway. Maybe that's what did it, because I watched it and I was like, I was like, oh wow, he like genuinely wants to save humanity. That's like his goal.

Vanessa Spina:
goal here. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's amazing. We hear about all these geniuses in the past, you know, people like Einstein, Michelangelo and, you know, Tesla, but to see them actually alive in our time and watch them, what they're doing.

Vanessa Spina:
And, you know, he got the US off of dependence on Russia for rockets, like he was like, before that the US government had to buy, they had to buy rockets from Russia. And he created SpaceX and made the US independent in terms of now being able to just send up their own payloads to space because they now have their own rockets through SpaceX.

Vanessa Spina:
Like he did that for America. Like he's amazing. And unfortunately, like ever since he took over Twitter, he's been like really demonized for a lot of things. And I truly think he just has such a good heart and he really just wants to help.

Vanessa Spina:
Humanity and and use his incredible genius to do that. And he's, yeah, he's done so many amazing things. And I think he'll he'll continue to. But yeah, he just, he just really is pure hearted. Like he really just wants to help us.

Vanessa Spina:
It's pretty amazing. I think even if just that alone was his legacy that the US could be able to send up its own payloads to space is pretty cool.

Melanie Avalon:
I did not know that he had that effect politically with Russia. Yeah, and that was the big takeaway because I know there's a lot of controversy with X, formerly known as Twitter. How long do you call something formerly known as?

Melanie Avalon:
How long? I don't know. Every time I see that phrase, I'm like, I wonder how long we're going to say that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we're just so attached to the name and the brand and everything that it's hard. I still think of it as Twitter. I see the X icon on my phone. I barely use Twitter, but I see the icon and I'm like, I still think of it as Twitter.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it just makes us all more comfortable to still say Twitter in the title, you know? But I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's kind of been a big distraction for him and it's embroiled him in a lot of negativity that he doesn't deserve.

Vanessa Spina:
So, unfortunately.

Melanie Avalon:
question for you. When Twitter switched to X because I don't follow the news at all. So like at all. So I didn't know it was switching. I don't know if they were talking about that it was going to switch.

Melanie Avalon:
Did they talk about that it was going to switch before it switched or did it just switch?

Vanessa Spina:
So Pete uses Twitter a lot and he said he knew but for me it was like what what do you mean? It's called what?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I just remember I was on my phone and all of a sudden there was this big X and I was like, I was like, who hacked my phone? Because it looks like, you know, it looks like something scandalous. Because I was like, where did this app come from?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, X is, yeah, I don't get it.

Melanie Avalon:
And then I clicked on it, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I never, yeah, I never go on Twitter, or X, I never go there. In any case, what I was gonna say was, I know he's shrouded in a lot of controversy and politicalness and I'm a highly apolitical person myself.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I'm really like, I just don't get involved. Listening to the interview, I was like, oh, and I said this earlier, but like he really, the reason he bought Twitter is because he really thinks, whether or not he is, he really thinks he's saving humanity.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's hard to demonize him hearing from his heart why he did it. He was like, oh, I'm gonna go there.

Vanessa Spina:
He wants, he truly believes that we need as a society to have freedom of speech and to have this, he calls it like a community forum that like you're not where everyone can talk where you're not like silencing certain people or you're not.

Vanessa Spina:
He just thinks it's so important for us, all of us to have one like community forum where like anything can be said and that is like the notion of free speech. So yeah, it again, it's really hard to talk about it without it being politicized and everything, you know, and that's not something that we really talk about on the podcast much.

Vanessa Spina:
But I really think he's amazing. And yeah, I'm glad that you're seeing it now too. And he's also super.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that's the thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Because his personality makes him, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and yeah, because you know, it's like video on Spotify, so I kept looking down. I was like, oh, he's an attractive man. I understand now.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm so glad I got the update. I'll have to find that voice note. I'll have to go back and find it.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. No, I did way more justice to it here, but all the way, but, okay, I'm gonna stop this train, but he has like 10 kids, right? At least seven. That's crazy. And that's it.

Vanessa Spina:
and they're like all boys. Really?

Melanie Avalon:
all of them.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, unless he's had a girl, you know, I don't follow as closely as I used to, but yeah, mostly boys.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Oh, I did. That is a question I asked Valter Longo. That was my favorite moment of the Valter Longo episode for sure. I asked him because we were talking about how lifespan is driven by basically the need to reproduce and that all these processes are in place to like extend our lifespan so that we can have children.

Melanie Avalon:
And then once you have children and then once your role is like done with taking care of the child, then the body doesn't really care so much about staying around. So I asked him if you don't have kids, what are the implications there?

Melanie Avalon:
Because then your body's like still waiting, you know, to have kids. So would that extend lifespan? He says he thinks like, and this is me paraphrasing and listeners can listen to the episode, which was I have podcast episode 352, but he essentially said that like theoretically, yes, if you didn't have kids, it shouldn't theory promote your lifespan.

Melanie Avalon:
And it might, but it's probably not super measurable. And I'm the takeaway was that it might be like a year or two difference. But I personally don't, you know, see myself having kids. So that's all I'm going to say there.

Melanie Avalon:
That's in favor of my longevity, but he made it sound like it wasn't a big deal. Yeah, that's interesting. So, yep. Well, that was all of the

Vanessa Spina:
rabbit holes? Yeah, this always happens when we haven't gotten to record together in a couple weeks. We usually end up catching up and chatting a lot, but I'm ready for questions if you are.

Melanie Avalon:
Now I'm thinking we should discuss more studies in the beginning. Listeners, let us know if that's of interest to you because it's so timely, no pun intended. Okay. So our first question comes from Carolyn, first and probably only.

Melanie Avalon:
And this subject is IF and Lyme Disease. And Carolyn says, I am continuing to love the podcast through all of the co -host changes and am delighted to follow your remarkable career, Melanie. Well, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
So nice. She says, I am really loving you as well, Vanessa, because my ancestry is from Prague and I'm wanting to play on a trip there with my 17 year old son. So hearing all about your life there has kept me on the edge of my seat.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that's so wonderful. She says, I am a 55 year old woman who has devoted my life to fitness and nutrition. I have had a few minor health issues, hypothyroid diagnosis in 2012, herniated disc surgery in 2016, histamine intolerance in 2022.

Melanie Avalon:
But for the most part, enjoy abundant energy and a pretty lean and muscular physique, not to mention amazing mental clarity since starting IF in 2018. On June 21st, 2023, I was diagnosed with Lyme Disease and immediately started a course of antibiotics along with herbal supplements and a medicinal mushroom blend specific to addressing Lyme.

Melanie Avalon:
The longest extended fast I have done was several years ago and was around 90 hours or so. I'm interested in doing a five day fast, especially now if it will be helpful in eliminating these stealthy corkscrew shaped pests.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm a teacher, so I do not have to report back to work until early September. So the summer would be the perfect time to embark upon this fast, especially while I am just getting started trying to eliminate this pathogen from my body.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for all you do and for any insight you can provide about the benefits of fasting and mitigating the impacts of Lyme Disease. Gracefully, Carolyn. OK. Gratefully. Oh, gratefully.

Vanessa Spina:
I was like gracefully, it's such a nice way of signing off. I've never heard that.

Melanie Avalon:
I know we just started adapting that. Let me say that again. Gratefully. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
Carolyn. That's so nice, you know, all about your ancestry being from Prague and, you know, following Melanie's remarkable career. I love all the comments. It sounds like you've been doing amazing with your health and lifestyle and everything.

Vanessa Spina:
With regards to Lyme, I'm not sure how you're doing now because it sounds like this was before the summer. And I'm not sure if you actually ended up doing a five -day fast. But I did do a little bit of research and the thing that I found the most evidence on was with regards to autophagy.

Vanessa Spina:
So there was a really interesting study done about actually 10 years ago is about how autophagy modulates the bacteria that is producing a lot of inflammation when it comes to Lyme. So the study was pretty in -depth.

Vanessa Spina:
Would be great to link it in the show notes if you want to go and check it out. But they basically determined that when they inhibit autophagy, so they block autophagy, it increases the cytokine production of two, they're interleukin -6 and interleukin -1 beta.

Vanessa Spina:
So that basically says that autophagy, if it's not inhibited, if it is instead enhanced, that you could reduce that cytokine production and lower inflammation that is produced during Lyme. So I think a lot of the issues that come up with Lyme are pain from the inflammation.

Vanessa Spina:
And so I think that fasting, doing an extended fast has been shown in the research, I think, to produce pretty dramatic autophagy. So that's probably why you're looking into it. I have seen some other, I guess, like anecdotes or self -reported stories.

Vanessa Spina:
So there's an amazing blogger who is in Canada. A lot of people follow her and she says that she reversed her Lyme with fasting and carnivore. I think a lot of other people are doing that. I know Craig Emmerich has been doing carnivore to help with his Lyme.

Vanessa Spina:
So ketogenic diets also lower inflammation and carnivore often tends to end up with ketogenic macros. So I think that there's also a lot of nutrient density, but slow down, farmstead, and that's the account.

Vanessa Spina:
I saw that Rob Wolf, he reposted her post that she did about how she was diagnosed with Lyme and she has no pain in her body whatsoever and is completely able to manage all the symptoms. Like she really has no symptoms.

Vanessa Spina:
And she says it's all from doing prolonged fasting and carnivore. So I think it's definitely something to look into. And to reach out, you could reach out potentially to people like that, look into the research on it, and a lot of the research on fasting shows that autophagy is massively upregulated after 36 hours.

Vanessa Spina:
So if you're on to 72 hours, I think anywhere between three to five days, you'll probably get a massive amount of autophagy. There's also other ways to get autophagy. Exercise is one of the best ones.

Vanessa Spina:
It sounds like you already do a lot of exercise. So if that's something you can still do, it'll probably also help generating autophagy. It doesn't necessarily just need to be fasting, but definitely something I would say to look into and do more research on and talk to your care provider about if there's someone that specializes in Lyme they may be familiar or you could bring some of the research to them to talk about it with them.

Vanessa Spina:
What do you think, Melanie? Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. That was so incredibly helpful. We'll put a link in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 353 to that study. I really appreciate that. We actually released our recent episodes with Craig Emmerich around the same time, I think, because you just released yours with him sort of recently, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Yes, and I did as well. I talked with him about, I think there's a lot of potential for modulating the immune system for how you're actually reacting to the Lyme, whether or not you technically have it or not.

Melanie Avalon:
Because a lot of us have dormant infections of a lot of different types, and they can be kept at bay and actually not, quote, bother us if the immune system is keeping everything in check. So I think anything immune supportive would be really helpful in fasting is definitely immune supportive.

Melanie Avalon:
So, yeah, definitely, Carolyn, if you might have already done it by now, if you did, let us know and let us know if you had any beneficial effects from it. And also sending love. I know it can be really hard.

Melanie Avalon:
I personally had my own. I got diagnosed with it and I went down the rabbit hole. And honestly, the thing that helped me the most, this isn't necessarily the approach for everybody, but it's what worked for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I just stopped caring. And what I mean by that is I went into a mode where I was so fixated and I was like, I have Lyme in me. I have to kill it. I have to do all the things. I was in like an attack mode and I got so worn out from that.

Melanie Avalon:
I know that helped. That works for a lot of people. A lot of people do need to be aggressive and there's definitely a big difference between like you got bit by a tick yesterday and you just got positive and you need to do antibiotics now.

Melanie Avalon:
Like that's very different than me testing positive for Lyme as interpreted by some doctors, but not others and like the vagueness surrounding it and just having an overwhelming sense of fatigue. So like that state versus an acute instance where you just got Lyme.

Melanie Avalon:
When I finally decided like, you know what, I'm just going to focus on recovery and healing and not attacking all the time. And I'm not even going to test for Lyme anymore. That actually helped me the most.

Melanie Avalon:
And that's not going to work for everybody, but it worked for me. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, actually, and I went and saw a new doctor recently, a holistic doctor. She was like, oh, we should like test you for Lyme.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, I don't want to. Like I'm fine. I don't need to.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean if you're asymptomatic then why, yeah, why worry about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I mean, I always am struggling a little bit with fatigue issues and certain things, but I'm just so massively better than where I was that I just don't want to open that rabbit hole. So, and that's not, again, that's not going to work for everybody, but it really worked for me.

Melanie Avalon:
Because I think some people just get locked down in fear and they're just, they're obsessive and that's all they can think about. I think it's really hard to heal when you're in that mindset. So, I think stepping back and taking a breather can help a lot of people.

Melanie Avalon:
So, yep. Hoki -doki. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So, a few things for listeners before we go. If you'd like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ivepodcast .com or you can go to ivepodcast .com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
And this should be done by the time this comes out for sure because I'm working on it right now and we're a few months ahead. I think I will have really optimized our Stuff We Like page on ivepodcast .com slash Stuff We Like.

Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of a mess for a while, but I'm really tackling it right now. So, you should be able to get all of the stuff that we like at ivepodcast .com slash Stuff We Like. And you can follow us on Instagram, we are ivepodcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is Ketagenet Girl and I think that is all of those things. And anything for me or Vanessa before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I had so much fun with you and I'm excited to record the next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jan 14

Episode 352: Special Guest: Dr. Valter Longo, Fasting Mimicking, Nutritional Science, Cellular Rejuvenation, Reproduction & Lifespan, Calorie Restriction, Autophagy And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #115 - Valter Longo, Ph.D.

Welcome to Episode 352 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time. For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Ion Layer: NAD+ is a coenzyme that plays a key part in many cellular processes, including energy production and DNA repair. NAD+ levels are depleted by things like stress, aging, alcohol, travel, and lack of sleep. Boosting NAD+ levels can help support energy, cognitive function, metabolic health, and even longevity! Ion Layer provides easy, affordable access to NAD+ patches! Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar-free, and high-quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate, and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

ION LAYER: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Episode 311: Trauma, Cancer Prevention, Obesity, Calorie Restriction, Fasting Mimicking Diet, Digestive Rest, Kid’s Nutrition, Special Teachers, And More!

Valter's history

How animal studies compare to human studies

How the body regenerates itself

Pre-programmed cellular death

Timeline of reproduction within lifespan

Fasting & calorie restriction

Listener Q&A: Melanie - What level does he think is low protein? Does he think it is best to alway be low protein or is it ok to cycle between low and moderate or high protein diets?

Listener Q&A: Laura - Is there a way to mitigate muscle loss on an extended fast?

Listener Q&A: Shelley - Does the fasting mimicking diet really protect you from losing lean body mass? He says the glycerin drink that's included in the ProLon kit is supposed to protect you from losing lean body mass.

Listener Q&A: Heather - Have done several rounds of FMD. Wore a CGM and it spiked my glucose significantly - how is this mimicking fasting?

Calorie restriction & lifespan

FMD trials

The anti-cancer properties

Listener Q&A: Candice - What’s considered an extended fast—36 hrs, 48, etc? And what happens during each phase—like when does autophagy peak?

Stem cell regeneration

The differences in sexes

Listener Q&A: April - Am curious if his guidance differs for perimenopausal women vs. other groups but will see if he covers that in his book.

Listener Q&A: Tabitha - Do extended fasts or fasting mimicking diets affect women’s hormones and should they only be done at certain times of the monthly cycle? Curious to know especially during the perimenopause time of life?

Is ProLon appropriate for any age?

How ProLon works

Can you tweak the fasting mimicking diet?

Daily time restricted eating vs fasting mimicking diet

Breakfast skipping

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - How can I live to 180?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 352 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is a very special episode today with Dr. Longo. We can't wait to hear what you guys think. If after listening, you would like to try the fasting mimicking diet, you can go to Prolonlife.com and use the coupon code IFPODCAST to get 10% off your order of the ProLon FMD.

So that is Prolonlife.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 10% off your order of ProLon. And then these show notes for today's episode, which will have a full transcript, will be available at ifpodcast.com/episode352.

So again, Prolonlife.com with the coupon code IFPODCAST for 10% off. All right, now enjoy the show.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends. Welcome back to the show. We have a very special episode of the intermittent fasting podcast today with a very special guest. This is somebody that we talk about on this show all the time. We get questions about all the time. We are here with a legend in the fasting world, Dr. Valter Longo, who actually is from USC, where went so it's personally, I'm very excited about this as well. Fight on. So listeners are probably familiar with Dr. Longo, but for those who are not, he is actually the Edna M. Jones professor of gerontology and biological sciences and director of the Longevity Institute at USC. I remember, actually, when I was at USC, I used to always pass that building and it looked very mysterious to me. I don't think I even knew what gerontology was at the time, which kind of shows how far things have come in my life. Dr. Longo, though he has received so many awards for his work from the NIH, he's been recognized by Time magazine. Just a laundry list of things which we will put in the show notes. He's also the author of an incredible book, which I have right here, the longevity diet. I highly recommend it. The subtitle is discover the new science behind stem cell activation and regeneration to slow aging, fight disease, and optimize weight. And Dr. Longo has actually been, he's been on my other show, the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, and he's actually been on this show like five years ago now. So it's been quite a while. And I know there's been a lot of developments and updates and so many things. So I have so many questions. Personally, I have a lot of questions from you guys because you had a lot of questions. So, Dr. Longo, thank you so much for being you.

Valter Longo:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
So to start things off, just to get listeners a little bit familiar with your work, and for those who are not familiar, a little bit about your backstory, what made you so interested in aging calorie restriction fasting. I know in the book you talk about wanting to be a rock star when you were younger. So what led you to what you're doing today?

Valter Longo:
I was a music student, actually, in Texas. The University of North Texas had one of the best jazz programs in the nation. They asked me to direct a marching band. And so I said there is no way that I'm going to do that. I was a rock guitar player, so I wasn't going to be a marching band director, and I have nothing against marching band, by the way, but I wasn't going to direct it. So I thought maybe what I always wanted to do was aging. And it was always in my head. And so I was probably 19 years old, and I was sure that I wanted to study aging. So I went over to the biochemistry department, and of course they thought I was crazy because I'd never taken a biology course in my life. And they say that you're not going to last more than three months, but that's not the case. And so that's all I've ever done since. And then fasting came in mostly with Roy Walford at UCLA when I started my phd in 1992, a long time ago. And Roy at the time, was most famous person on the planet for nutrition and aging. And he was, not surprisingly, working on something called calorie restriction. So I started in his lab, but then I left his lab to go back to the biochemistry department and start working not on calorie restriction, but on starving bacteria and starving yeast. So I sort of got the sense from the very beginning, the starvation, real fasting, like water, only fasting was hiding something even more important than just calorie restriction. Calorie restriction just refers to just eating about 25% less calories than normal. But fasting, of course, is no calories at all. And so, yeah, since then, I've been focusing my laboratories both here and in Italy, I've been focusing on fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
I have so many questions already. Just to start with, the animal studies, how much of the aging pathways and everything in the animals, how appropriately do they apply to humans? Is it like a one to one thing, or is it more extrapolations, or what's the comparison there?

Valter Longo:
You mean in general, timing wise, when.

Melanie Avalon:
You find findings in rodents or yeast, how do we know how much that applies to humans?

Valter Longo:
This is why I started working. I went from humans and mice in Walford lab to bacteria and yeast at UCLI and the John Valentine's lab. And because I thought all these organisms have 3 billion years of history, and I thought in 3 billion years, all these organisms have been evolving in parallel. And so I thought there's going to be probably very fundamental laws for what's happening during fasting that apply to all organisms. Now, of course, there's a lot of differences, and you have to make sure you understand them and you apply them. And so that's what we do. So we run lots of clinical trials for that reason. But I think the fundamentals were going to be, I mean, at least that was my hypothesis. The fundamentals are going to be the same. So if you starve a yeast, a unicellular eukaryot, it's going to start shrinking, and then it's going to get into a low aging mode, and it's going to start eating its own components while it's shrinking. And then eventually you feed it again and it re expands. Right. So I thought this is probably something very much conserved all the way to humans. You shrink, you eat your own parts, essentially, while you're doing that, and pick the ones that are most damaged and then turn on programs that are very similar to the embryonic developmental programs. So the same programs that generate organs when you need to re expand. Right. It all makes sense. And that's what we now see in mice, in rats, and we're starting to see this in people. But really, a lot of that started in yeast and bacteria.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. Yeah. Two thoughts from that really quickly. One, I think you were pointing out in your book that we clearly, as humans, when we create an embryo, we have the potential to create something that is not aged. It's really interesting that our bodies age, but we still harbor this seemingly inherent potential to create something that is completely young. So how do we apply that to our entire body? Is that just two different systems? Can that translate over? Is there something different that's going on when we're creating embryos versus our bodies aging?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, and this is the big difference between, I think, what we do and what a lot of my colleagues do. Right. So there's a lot of biohacking. And our point has been that the human body already knows how to go back to zero. Right, meaning age zero. But how do you do that? Right, so how do you make a liver or a muscle or a pancreas regenerate itself and go back to zero? And so we've shown that, in fact, you could do this with fasting, mimicking diets and do multiple shrinking, re expansion. Shrinking re expansion. And if you do it enough times, you'll see that actually these Yamanaka factors, these reprogramming, these markers of embryonic development, they turn down, right. And they start the process of regeneration. And then when you refeed, they actually start the process of re expansion and making new cells and more functional cells. For example, we've done it with pancreas. We take the mouse and we damage the pancreas to where it no longer makes insulin. And then we start with the fasting, making diet and refeeding cycles. And you see that the pancreatic cells begin to be reprogrammed, and then eventually they start making insulin again and they become functional again. So we went from a permanently non functional pancreas to a regenerated functional pancreas. So this is just some of the examples. Now, can you actually make it all the way to an organism that is completely young? That's much, much harder. But I think that we're on the right track. Right. And I don't know that we want to make people go back to being 15 years old, but certainly we can rejuvenate. We now know that we can make people younger. The question is, how much younger at.

Melanie Avalon:
The point of death? What do you think is happening there? Because what I'm thinking through in my head right now is the aging of all these different organs and the potential to, I don't know, independently anti age each individual organ, but the body as a whole. What do you think actually happens at the point of death? Is there a system wide message where it's just decided that everything has independently aged enough that we just have to stop all systems? Or what do you think is happening there?

Valter Longo:
We've been working also on the theoretical part, and we're not very busy on that, but we have. And there are two possibilities that we came up with, and one is that aging is actually programmed, right, which is very unlikely. We demonstrated for unicellular organisms. What does that mean? But nobody's ever demonstrated for mammals. So is it possible that there is actually a program to kill us, to get us out of the way so that new generations can have the space and the food and the resources to grow? The evolutionary biologists will say that's crazy talk. There is no way. And maybe it happens in microorganisms but nowhere else. But let's assume that that's not true, then the other part is really, there is something called the force of natural selection. And so what does that mean? Means that the evolution, as the job, is selective for organisms that are very protected, as long as they are still in a phase where they can contribute to the next generation. Right. So let's say for humans, let's say it's 40 to 50. After that, it will make sense. And we know that the force of natural selection goes down, meaning that the force that kept everything working in an almost perfect way is now weaker and weaker and weaker and weaker. So by the time you get to 70 or 80, that's almost gone.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
There's no force anymore. And what does it mean? It means you're on your own and your organs are on your own. There is no help from evolution anymore because evolution doesn't care about that 73 year old person, and in fact, it might select against it, get out of the way. That's why then we die, because we've been on our own for 30 or 40, 50 years by then, and things go progressively wrong. Eventually the system stops it.

Melanie Avalon:
In all of the various animal species, does the timing of when they typically reproduce and the amount of time required to foster those children or the babies, does that correlate to the lifespan of the species pretty equally?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, very much, right? Very much. There was a great experiment done 40 years ago by Michael Rose at UC Irvine, I think. And he took flies, and he took the flies that were reproducing early, and then he took the flies that were reproducing late, right? And he selected them for many generations. Kind of like saying, imagine if we went out and took women that are having children very late in their mid 40s, right? And then we took women that had children very early, 1820 years old. And then for generation, we selected these two groups, right? And then they went back and looked at it. And the flies that were reproducing earlier, they had a shorter lifespan, a much shorter lifespan, and they were very good at reproducing, but they lived a lot shorter. And those that were reproducing until later time or at a later time were selected for reproducing later time. They were not as good early on. They were 80% as good at reproducing, but they were making offspring for a lot longer. And this has been shown in lots of different organisms. And so, yes, so the reproductive span is very much associated with the lifespan.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Okay. I'm so excited right now because that question haunts me. Do you think that translates over to humans? And so, for example, this is just me being completely selfish. I don't really anticipate having children. Do you think women who don't have children, would that affect their lifespan at all?

Valter Longo:
That's actually been published in many studies. Right. So it's a little tricky because on one side there is an advantage, and then there is a disadvantage of having too many children, probably because people become very stressed out. Right. So I think in the end, there's probably not much of a difference. So that percent doesn't matter that much. And if there is a difference, it's probably a few years. But the point would be if we found a way to postpone making, let's say, women and men reproduce until much later, let's say that we found a way to allow women to reproduce until age 65, then most likely that group of women will live longer on average, or a lot longer on average.

Melanie Avalon:
So fascinating. Okay, one more last animal. Rabbit hole question. The antiaging or longevity programs or mechanisms in the immortal jellyfish, is that the same pathways, or do they have something else going on?

Valter Longo:
Well, the jellyfish, you can look at them a little bit as a colony of microorganisms, right? So if you look at a colony of yeast or bacteria, is the colony immortal? Yes, it is immortal, but does it really relate to us?

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
Well, yeah, in some ways, but it's going to be very difficult to translate that immortality of a colony. And so the jellyfish, in a sense, are like a colony that sticks together, right. And of course, it's a more complex organization. So it is closer to mammal than a colony of yeast. But let's say it's an in between situation, right? So you cut something off and it can regrow. Just like if you kill part of a colony of bacteria or yeast, it's going to regrow back. It doesn't really care that you kill some of it.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And the same is true for certain fungal colonies. Right. That have been discovered to be, I don't know, thousands of years old and been growing for thousands of years now, you could say, is that an organism or is it a group of organisms that simply keep expanding?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. That makes sense. Okay. Coming back to the calorie restriction and the fasting, a foundational question. I've always had these pathways that are activated, the effects of fasting, are they the same pathways as calorie restriction? Are they different? And also, if you are engaging in different modalities, like fasting and calorie restriction or fasting and protein restriction or all the various things that might be antiaging, do you think those effects are additive or do they cancel each other out? Like, if you're doing one, are you pretty much good, or does doing multiple things add more antiaging potential?

Valter Longo:
Well, I think that, of course, the risk is that if you start doing multiple things that are improvised, that could hurt you.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So already, calorie restriction, again refers to eating 25% less than normal. Not less than people eat, but less than normal.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So then a typical male would be, I'm fairly thin and I'm 170 pounds. If I were to be calorie restricted, I would be maybe 145, right? Yeah, it's already pretty extreme. Now, even that, it's not clear that that's going to be beneficial to anyone. I mean, the study Wisconsin, among mean, Wisconsin showed lifespan extension, but the one in the NIA did not show lifespan extension. And so then you will argue that maybe calorie restriction, chronic, color restriction, like the extreme and chronic, it's going to give you a lot of benefits, but not necessarily make you live longer. And in the process, it's probably going to slow down your metabolism and your hunger, et cetera. I would say that I think that the periodic fasting mimicking diet are starting. And protein restriction is another one that I like. And time resistant eating, what Sachin panda has been talking about for decades, those are the things that I like, and I think they are additive, meaning, like if you eat for, let's say, 12 hours a day, maybe a little bit less, 11 hours a day, and then you're protein restricted, but not excessively protein restricted, you got to be careful because you can go from one problem, which is too much protein, to the opposite problem, which is too little amino acids of certain kinds.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So then timers hit the eating, let's say eating for 1112 hours a day, plus protein, the correct type of protein restriction, the correct type of diet, say pescatarian, what I call the longevity diet, plus the periodic fasting making diet, plus the exercise, that's probably 20 extra years of life expectancy.

Melanie Avalon:
You've mentioned a lot of words that we did get a lot of questions from listeners about, so I'll start bringing some of them in. So on the protein front, I think listeners and even me and my co host Vanessa, when she's here, I think there's a lot of confusion surrounding protein intake. On the one hand, we talk all the time on this show about the importance of actually like, a moderate or high protein diet for muscle growth and just supporting body composition. And I recently interviewed Dr. Gabrielle Lyon all about the benefits of protein. But then, on the other hand, we see these benefits of low protein and how protein associates with aging and dietary protein restriction, the benefits of that. So we had a question. I know, my name is Melanie. This is from another melanie, not me. She wanted to know. She said, what level do you think is low protein? Do you think it is best to always be low protein? Or is it okay to cycle between low and moderate or high protein diets? So, protein, what can you share about this issue?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. Well, first of all, the 20 years of life expectancy that I mentioned earlier is compared to, let's say, a western diet, right? So not compared to somebody that might have another type of positive intervention. So the protein, everybody loves this oversimplification. High fat, low fat eye protein, low protein, high carb, low carb. I think we need to move away from this, right? And I know people like it simple, and I can understand that, but it's not simple. The human body is extremely complex. So the solution is not going to be simple.

Melanie Avalon:
Right?

Valter Longo:
So even protein, you could be on a high protein diet and have deficiency in lots of amino acids, right? So let's say that you are on 100% legume diet, very high protein. Let's say 25% of your calories come from protein. You're still going to be malnourished, right? Because all you eat is legumes. Why? Because legumes contain very low level of a number of amino acids, which are very central for muscle and lots of other. So my recommendation. So we started clinics in the US and Europe from the foundation, and these are nonprofit clinics. And so I recommend, it's called create cures. And I recommend that people consider either talking to people that are dietitians and nutritionists at the clinic or somebody that knows what they're doing. Unfortunately, this low or high is really meaningless. And it could be very damaging because people then may say, oh, I have very good protein intake every day, so I'm good to go, not realizing that they don't, because all they're eating is legumes. Or, I have a reasonable low protein, but it's all from red meat. I'm fine. And again, now you may not be fine just because, yes, you have, say, 17% protein of your calorie in protein intake, but it's all from red meat and you still might have a problem, right? And then it gets more, even more complicated than that because there is phases of life, right? So if you're zero to three is one level of protein, then three to ten, then ten to 18, then 18, all the way to, let's say maybe 25 to 65 70, a relatively low protein diet is good, mostly vegan, but not completely vegan. But then after 65 70, then you have to go higher and have more animal proteins because otherwise you're going to be deficient in certain amino acid.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So I know it's very confusing answer, but that's because it's extremely complicated and I'm just trying to summarize it in 1 minute. But it's almost impossible, right. To really give. And that's my message here, instead of having an answer is like, please do not think you can get a manual out of 1 hour with me or somebody else because it doesn't work like that.

Melanie Avalon:
You have so many studies published, it's overwhelming and amazing. And I was going down the rabbit hole reading a lot of your recent ones and going like just what you were saying about you can't summarize things in 1 minute, even with your studies. I'll read like one study and then I want to read all the references and there's just so much information. And I was even going on one rabbit hole because it was talking about in the case that they were looking at, I think it was in monkeys, the calorie restriction was actually protective against sarcopenia, which was kind of mind blowing. So it just kind of goes to show how complicated everything is and how many layers there are.

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So calorie restriction causes muscle loss. But then some studies suggest that the lower level of muscle now is more functional than the higher. But again, most people are not going to want to look like they're starving and have more functional muscle. Right. Even there, as you just pointed out, it's a complex answer and it's best handled by somebody that can follow the person and get them to where they want to be.

Melanie Avalon:
So the muscle itself, we got a few questions about that. Laura wanted to know, is there a way to mitigate muscle loss on an extended fast? And Shelly wanted to know, does the fasting mimicking diet really protect you from losing lean body mass? Dr. Longo says the glycerin drink that's included in the prolonged kit is supposed to protect you from losing lean body mass. So what have you seen in your studies and trials with the fasting mimicking diet and muscle loss?

Valter Longo:
Yeah, we've seen that four out of four trials now are showing we're looking at about maybe 300 patients, all ages, no lean body mass loss. Right. So there is a temporary lean body mass decrease during the fasting mimicking diet. I cannot talk about commercial products, but as it is in the box.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So people, sometimes they complain about all my sugar spiked. Well, that way we tested it is protecting, I guess, muscle loss and is increasing insulin sensitivity and is actually helping reverse diabetes.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So it works the way it is right.

Melanie Avalon:
Now.

Valter Longo:
If you change it or improvise at home, who knows, right? I don't know, but I can tell you. And some of these trials we didn't do, right. Other people have done, but it works very well the way has been designed. And I think not only it works very well in protecting lean body mass loss and in causing insulin sensitization, but also I think that we worked very hard in making sure that somebody could do this for 20 or 30 years. And it'd be hard to claim that problems come from this diet because we're saying you should probably do it only maybe three or four times a year and that's it, if not less. Right. Depending who you are. Yeah. So I think that we now know we can protect lean body mass. Now, when we combine it with diabetes drugs, that's when we see the lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
But of course, we don't see it with other diabetes drug. We see it in the diabetes drug. So we're presuming that it is the diabetes drug, it's not the fasting diet that is causing the lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So, like, when it's combined with metformin, people tend to lose in both the.

Valter Longo:
Trial, one was with metformin, one was all diabetes drugs. Then we see the lean body mass loss, but you also see it with the drugs alone.

Melanie Avalon:
Question about those findings and results. Are you finding that nobody's experiencing overall lean body mass in the end, or are? Some people are and some people aren't, and it averages out to them not. I'm just wondering if people respond differently individually or is it pretty consistent?

Valter Longo:
It's generally consistent, but some people, we'll have to look at the scattered plots, but some people probably, on average, they don't. But some people are probably going down and some people are going up in muscle mass. Right. If somebody was doing it and they clearly saw. But to know if you're losing muscle, you will have to get a daxa or something similar. Right. Because, well, there is some devices that can measure impedimentiometry. They can measure, but those are probably not very accurate. So if you get a Daxa, you'll know if you in fact lost muscle mass and bone density. If somebody was in that category and for whatever reason they think it's a fasting making diet, then that's something to keep in mind. But the issue is also, how frequently are you doing it? Because if somebody was to do like the trials that I just told you on, diabetes is once a month for six to twelve months.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So we're not recommending anybody else does that. So that means that you're doing it six times in six months or twelve times in twelve months. And that may also be why we see some lean body mass loss. My point being that if you do it once a month for three months and then you stop, then you have all the opportunities to regain your. Even if you wear among the small percentage for whom lean body mass is reduced, then you have an opportunity to regain it.

Melanie Avalon:
Is there a difference in people who are obese or overweight versus people who are normal weight with the muscle loss?

Valter Longo:
No, there isn't. So we looked at normal weight and we looked at at least two trials normal weight and two trials on overweight and obese. No lean body mass loss in the absence of other drugs. And in the one we just finished in Italy, there was even six cycles in six months and still we didn't see any muscle and lean body mass loss.

Melanie Avalon:
You said there is a temporary loss. How fast does that come back? Is it right after they stop within one week?

Valter Longo:
We measured that one week after and it's already back.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Okay. You were talking about how people were saying that it spiked their blood sugar and the implications of that. So maybe just to revisit it one more time, because Heather literally had that exact question. She said that she's done several rounds of the FMD diet, fasting, mimicking diet. She says, I wore a CGM on a recent round and the soup spiked my glucose significantly from around 70 to 160. How is this mimicking fasting when consuming soups causes a huge insulin spike. So that actually adds another question. Is that still fasting? If you're getting that high blood sugar response?

Valter Longo:
We're not trying to have an identical effect to water only fasting. That's not our purpose. Our purpose is to make people live longer, younger and healthier.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And so from all the trials we see, so if somebody sees the 160, they will say, okay, well, this is going to make me gain weight and this is going to make me insulin resistant. But yet trial after trial after trial, we see exactly the opposite. Right? And then even trials, like, know, completely independent of us. Or, you know, all these trials have been done by other people, by big universities, because people can say, oh, there is a product behind it and there is some attempt to. These are independent trials and that's what they found. Right. So then the spikes may actually be beneficial to maintain lean body mass and maybe even they may be beneficial to get this impressive sensitization to insulin. Right, that we see in a short time. Now, we are also going to try to test versions that have a lot lower starches and they have a lot lower carbohydrates. So we'll see. But I think we've been doing this for ten years in the clinical setting and it's going to take us a while to beat the effects that we see now. For example, Heidelberg saw a one c dropping from, I think, 8.1 to 6.7. Very impressive change in diabetic patients.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And I'm sure lots of them were getting the same spikes, as this person is saying. So again, I'm very worried. People are just going home and getting the continuous glucose monitor, seeing one piece of it and then concluding that this is bad for them, very dangerous. But I'm all for people checking themselves and that's good, but don't come to conclusions because that's not the way it works. We'll see. And I wouldn't be surprised if when we tested with lower glycemic spikes, that we start seeing less effects.

Melanie Avalon:
So, interesting. And actually, I was reading last night one of your. I think it was more recent, it was a study, it was called diet composition influences the metabolic benefits of short cycles of very low caloric intake. And it was looking at very low caloric intake with a standard laboratory chow in rats compared to plant based fasting mimicking diet. I'm just curious because it was saying that a long lasting metabolomic reprogramming in serum and liver is observed in mice on very low calorie intake cycles with standard diet, but not fasting mimicking diet. Do you know the diet that I'm referring to? I'm wondering if that was a. I.

Valter Longo:
Think I'm among the.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Yes. Was that a beneficial metabolomic reprogramming with the standard chow?

Valter Longo:
This is a study by Rafa de Cabo, and this is the way, probably the graduate student that was working on it saw it. But now we have lots of mouse lifespan studies, even mice on a high fat and a high calorie diet. And this we published a few years ago. So it's taking that short window that you saw in the paper, and it's taking a lifelong.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And we're showing that, remarkably, it is a natural metabolism paper from two years ago. Remarkably, the fasting making diet only once a month is able to reverse all the problems caused by the high fat, high sugar, high calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So the heart effects, the insulin sensitization, the insulin resistance, and the effects on cholesterol effects. Yeah. So I would say now we have lots of mouse, rat and human data. It's pretty consistent. It's almost like it's a little bit too good to be true. So I would now, hopefully, we're going to get some negative results, because so far it's been working even much better than we expected. I always think whenever I saw the Heidelberg study, they did something very similar to the paper you're referring to. They did five days of a mediterranean diet a month. Right. In diabetic patients. Five days of a mediterranean diet a month against five days of the FMD. And when I look at the paper, I think they probably did it to show that the FMD is pointless. The mediterranean diet is going to work. I mean, I don't know. Right. But I suspect that that's what they were trying to do. But sure enough, the mediterranean diet is worthless five days a month. And the FMD causes remarkable effect. And go look at it, because it's really impressive differences between this maybe a little bit calorie restricted, very healthy diet and the FMD.

Melanie Avalon:
So now I'm super curious, in your history of running all these trials, what was the biggest, surprising finding for you? Or it doesn't have to be the biggest, because that's a big question. But what was, like, a big, surprising finding for you maybe sometime where you thought you would find one thing and you found the opposite or. Yeah. What has been surprising in your FMD trials?

Valter Longo:
I think that the effects on cancer have been remarkable and thus far. And I think at the beginning, we will have expected kind of like what you see with the ketogenic diet. Right. So you see working against cancers, lots of cancers, but actually helping some cancers grow faster.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So the ketone bodies hurt a lot of cancers and help some. And I expected that from the fasting mixing diet. I truly did. And I'm surprised that after 20 years, we haven't seen that. Right. And I expect it. But really, like, another two papers were published just this week on the fasting McGinn diet and cyclic fasting. It just keeps on working in all the models that have been tested. So, for example, a paper that just came out in cancer research this week by a chinese group showing that the fasting mimicking diet is causing b cells to start attacking the cancer. So another novel colorectal cancer in this case, right, in mice. Yes. So I think that that's surprising, right, after all these labs and all these attempts, and nobody yet has come up with negative effects, but I'm sure it's going to happen. But it hasn't happened yet. So, very happy about that, but also very surprising.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you have a theory as to what the fasting mimicking diet might be circumventing or avoiding? That is the problem for why ketogenic diets sometimes support cancer.

Valter Longo:
My theory is the following. Is it possible the starvation for human beings represented an opportunity, kind of like sleep, right? So an opportunity to get rid of damage component. Right. Something that is under the force of natural selection that I mentioned earlier for the purpose of distinguishing good from bad. And so you only do it during fasting and not necessarily when you have a lot of food. Right. And why? Maybe because the bad becomes food for the person.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
It's a lot of speculation, but is it possible because, let's say precancerous cells, cancer cell, autoimmune cell, insulin resistance cell, senescent cells. So imagine all of this is food, right? So you don't want to throw it away. So maybe because we starve so frequently, maybe that was left around to become food when we don't have any food coming from the outside.

Melanie Avalon:
Because I'm not sure exactly which cancers are supported by ketogenic diets. But do you know if they've done calorie restricted ketogenic diets in those situations?

Valter Longo:
No. These are normal calorie ketogenic diet, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah.

Valter Longo:
So of course, the FMD is a calorie restricted ketogenic diet, but they've done usually normal calories, right? Yeah. So of course the normal calorie, if there was a program that was signaling go after the damaged cell because we're starving. So the normal calories now will prevent that, right. And say, well, we're not starving, we're just getting the calories from somewhere else. And so maybe that's why we see both. Because, yes, the ketone bodies may be part of the program to kill cancer cells, but the ketone Bodies may also be part of the fuel for certain cancers.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. And then speaking of self eating and breaking down these things, so we do talk about autophagy a lot on this show. And that's another thing where I think it is so presented as black and white and autophagy is on, autophagy is off, when in reality, autophagy is probably occurring all the time to different levels, and it's probably way more complicated than the way it is often presented. So in your trials, can you actually measure autophagy? So do you guys measure autophagy? Candice wanted to know when autophagy peaks. She says she's seen charts online, but who knows what type of science that's based on.

Valter Longo:
Yeah. Now there are trials to look at the FMD and autophagy. We see it in mice after a few days and probably maybe by day three, that's when. And it also depends in which cells, in which organs. So it's going to take a while to know how much autophagy is going on in how many systems. But autophagy, I think is just a small part of what I was talking about earlier, this shrinking re expansion. So one of the components is autophagy, but there is probably also cellular killing, as I was mentioning earlier, and using cells for fuel, the reprogramming of cells, the stem cell activation, the stem cell cells renewal. So there's probably a big program to remove damaged components and then regenerate. And autophagy, I speculate maybe 20% of the whole operation.

Melanie Avalon:
Got you. For the stem cell piece. Do you find that it affects both the release of stem cells? Does it increase the amount of stem cells? How all, does it affect the stem cells in the body?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So of course, in humans, we're just beginning to look at it, and we did have some initial evidence that we published on circulating stem cells. But in mice, for example, the metropoietic stem cells, those in the blood that give rise to all immune cells, they increase in number and then they increase in self renewal properties, meaning they start producing more of themselves.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So stem cells get activated and make more stem cells. And then this is associated then in the mouse with a rejuvenation of the immune system and a restoration of damaged immune system, more stem cells and more active stem cells. But in some other organs, we don't see the stem cells going up. We see the reprogramming of cells happening and the Yamanaka factors. So we think that it can go both ways. One way to achieve it, more stem cells, another way to achieve it, take a somatic cell, reprogram it into an embryonic like cell, and then do the job and then go back to a differentiated cell.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. So fascinating. We got a lot of questions about women specifically. So I guess first, as a foundational question for me, when you're doing these, the majority of your studies are they split populations of male, female. Do you test in women specifically? So are there sex differences?

Valter Longo:
We haven't seen it yet. Now, we really tested the FMD on thousands of patients in informal clinical trials, right. At least over a thousand, probably between cancer, diabetes and all the other diseases, Alzheimer, et cetera. Probably, you know, maybe 1500. So far, there wasn't, there hasn't been anything that is so evident that it works in male, doesn't work in female, or vice versa. But I think as we have more bigger numbers for specific changes. So let's say, for example, a one c or fasting glucose or cholesterol, then at some point, I think once we have, let's say, 300 males and 300 females that have done, say, three to six cycles of the fasting making diet, then we can go and compare them and see is there actually a difference in the response of males and females? But clearly they both respond. And all the trials thus far have been mixed with males and females.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll read two of the questions I got about it specifically. So April, she said, great timing. She said, I just started his book today, and we'll do a round of prolonged when I'm done. I'm curious if his guidance differs for perimenopausal women versus other groups, but I'll see if he covers that in the book. And then Tabitha, she said, do extended fasts or fasting mimicking diets affect women's hormones? And should they only be done at certain times of the monthly cycle? Curious to know, especially during the perimenopause time of life. So do you have any guidance there?

Valter Longo:
Yeah. So lots of people are asking about this. We haven't got reports of, let's say, in the cycle. The FMD is done early on versus late. We haven't gotten reports from people saying it clearly works best in one part of the cycle or another. And so far, we haven't tested around menopause, before menopause and after menopause, but it's certainly been tested on women in all those stages. And thus far, we see pretty clear results in all stages. Also, because some of the trials might have had half of the women pre menopause and half of the woman postmenopause. And it works as a group. And so I think we will have seen problems if it was just specific for a stage of life. But again, as I was saying earlier, and I encourage people to write to us and say, I'm in this stage and this is not working for me. And you never know. This could motivate a clinical trial on a specific population, but thus far we haven't seen it, but it doesn't mean that it's not there. So it could be that something works a lot better in certain groups, but I think that the effect is so powerful that probably most people benefit regardless of the stage. But, yeah, maybe some will benefit more.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. Yeah, that'll be exciting to see future as you get more and more and more feedback with that. That actually made me think of another question. When you're talking about when to do it, age of onset of implementing fasting, mimicking diet, or really anything, but I guess I'll keep it specific to fasting, mimicking diet. Is there a difference in when people start implementing this as far as the potential benefits that they see, or is it pretty much whenever you start it, you'll be good?

Valter Longo:
Well, I think that it all depends, right. For most people, they're going to have some issue. It's going to be beneficial. Now, we see effects on cholesterol, some of it. A bunch of this has not been published yet, but let's say we see clear effects on an ldl, we see effects on blood pressure, a1c, we see effect on abdominal weight. Again, no loss of lean, body mass. So if you think about all those things and see reactive protein in multiple trials, it goes down, inflammation goes down. So I would say the great majority of people are going to have some issue in this arena. If you think about the Americans, people in America, 75% are overweight and obese, right? And maybe probably 85% have some weight issue. So that means that 85% of the people will clearly benefit. Now, we've been talking about, if you just think about the weight and nothing else, right? But probably 95% of people benefit if you think about the weight and all these risk factors for diseases. So we've been talking about 20 to 70 now. We just finished the Alzheimer's trial in people up to 85. And I think the results are surprising in a good way. We expect that people having problems, but we didn't see that and becoming frail and we didn't see that. And also we're doing trials in the very young one, down to six years of age, in the type one diabetes trial in Gaslini children's hospital. And so now we've been talking to people about the possibility of running a trial in the young, maybe not so young, but maybe like say 14 to 18. Is it possible that maybe this is a great way to give them these five days of a vegan diet? It's a great way to educate the brain of a younger individual without forcing them to eat less or change their diet. And so with the hope that they get there on their own. Right. That's another thing that we didn't talk about. But these five days of a vegan diet, low calorie fasting, mimicking vegan diet, they have such a beneficial effect on people that we see lots of people basically gravitating more towards vegan nutrition. Could it be that in children, in the teenagers, this is going to be a good way to train the brain to behave in a different way without imposing diets?

Melanie Avalon:
I imagine that's a lot harder to conduct those trials. Probably getting like consent, I guess, or getting it approved to do it in the younger populations.

Valter Longo:
It was not an issue. But in the Gaslini children's hospital in Genova, Italy, is inpatient. Right. So they have to check into the hospital. But these are very young, like down to six years of age and with type one diabetes.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
So, yeah, I think that we've been talking here at Chla with different faculty doing in the 14 year old, 14 to 18. I think it should be pretty straightforward. I mean, they're still getting 800 to 1100 calories a day, so the risk is really minimal. But, yeah, of course, I love to go through their ethical committee approval as.

Melanie Avalon:
Far as actually doing the fasting and mimicking diet because I realized we kind of just jumped in. Could you just tell listeners briefly what the ProLon program looks like? And then I have a specific question about how it can be implemented. But in general, it's five days or. Yeah. Would you like to just tell listeners a little bit what they should expect?

Valter Longo:
The FMD that we've been testing in lots of trials, there is different version. There is a version for Alzheimer's. There's higher calorie. There's a version for cancer. It's a lot lower calories. There's a version for autoimmunities that it's a different composition. But let's say the one for normal people that's been tested so much, I cannot name commercial names, but let's say that one is 1100 calories or so on day one, and then it goes down to 800 calories on day 2345. It's a low calorie, low protein, high fat, plant based, and it's relatively high in carbohydrates, even though it's very low carbohydrate. But I mean, composition wise, it's relatively high, and that's by design. I did not want people to cycle between high ketogenic state and low ketogenic state. And it's maybe out of being over cautious, but that's the way I like it. So I was always worried that if you get to severe ketogenic states or very high ketone bodies and then back and you keep going back and forth enough times, that could eventually cause problems. And I don't have any evidence for that, but I was afraid of that. And that's why, by design, the FMD is relatively high in carbohydrates, even though, because it's so restricted, it's still a very low level of carbohydrates.

Melanie Avalon:
So that possibly sort of answered my question. My question was, so I personally do a one meal a day approach with intermittent fasting. I think I talked about this before, last time I had you on the show, but I eat like, very high protein and then I fast during the day. So with the fasting mimicking diet commercial version, would I be able to do it in a one meal a day approach and have all the meals at once, or it sounds like that would be the antithesis of what you were potentially nervous about happening.

Valter Longo:
Not necessarily because the FMD, again, let's say that you do it three times a year. That's not really going to. So you could do it either way, right? You could try to compress it. It'll be hard to do for you. But if you already do it like that, it is possibly doable in one meal a day, and this is only for five days, and then you go back to whatever it is that you do, right. So I think that it can be done like that, but it would not be easy, let's say, to have the two soups and the bars and all the other things that are in there all in one shot. But it's doable. But it's also not necessary, right. For those, say, 15 days a year, you could have your regular meals, say, morning, noon and evening.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically, the comparison between daily intermittent fasting all the time versus fasting mimicking diet however many times a year, but then not fasting the rest of the time. I mean, I don't know if it's a comparison where you're like, oh, this one's better, this one's not, but you're seeing similar benefits. I don't want to put words in your mouth. What are your thoughts on that comparison? Because a lot of the audience is doing daily intermittent fasting.

Valter Longo:
Yeah, I mean, the daily intermittent is not intermittent fasting. I think I like such impanda's time restricted eating, meaning like, eat within so many hours a day. And I think that's a very good practice in addition to the periodic fasting making diet. So I recommend 1112 hours of food consumption because as you get to the 16 hours, you start seeing gallstone issues. If you skip breakfast, you see this is associated with a shorter lifespan. So the breakfast keepers, they tend to live shorter than the non breakfast keeper. Now, of course, it could be that the breakfast keeper have a terrible lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera, but that's not a good start. And this is why I usually say, if you're going to skip, skip dinner and fast for 16 hours or whatever, probably better not to skip breakfast. Now, it doesn't mean that you cannot be a breakfast keeper and live to 100, but the epidemiological data suggests that in general, the breakfast keepers live shorter, have more cardiovascular disease, et cetera. They're compatible. So you could do, let's say eleven, let's say twelve or 13 to 16 hours of fasting per day regardless. Right? And then on top of that, as I was saying earlier, add, say, three times a year, fasting mimicking diet. So the two things are expected to be additive, if not even synergistic, potentially.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, got you. Yeah. The breakfast thing is something where I just feel like it's so complicated. And with the epidemiological data, I just wonder if it's a lot of healthy user bias, like we've been told so long that skipping breakfast is bad. So are people who are breakfast skippers engaging in other lifestyle habits? And then a lot of the studies are funded by the breakfast cereal food industries.

Valter Longo:
No, they're not. They're. No. In fact, we did the same thing. We did the analysis and got scooped by a chinese group and we saw the same with the enhance the CDC database. Very clear effects. Don't forget that these epidemiological studies adjust for smokers and adjust for bad behavior. And on top of that, I always ask the question, why doesn't that, let's say they have bad behavior, some bad behavior, which we do not see. Why doesn't a good behavior, which would be the fasting, now, counterbalance the bad behavior? Right. Why don't we see them at least live normal? We see them live shorter.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And that's where you got to become concerned. Right? Let's say they have bad behavior. Well, 16 hours of fasting is clearly beneficial. There's nobody's arguing with that. Why doesn't that help them at least live normal?

Melanie Avalon:
I see what you're saying. So not necessarily fasting studies, but if there are studies on breakfast skippers, they are technically then fasting a certain amount of time. So technically they shouldn't see the issues. Yeah.

Valter Longo:
So most of them are going to be fasting for 1416, 18 hours a day. Right. Because they skip breakfast and they've made, I don't know what time they had dinner. I'm not saying that 16 hours is bad, but I'm saying this breakfast skipping is definitely not a good idea. And also there's papers that I actually wrote a little piece on about a year ago showing people started eating at 12:00, they were hospitalized and they either started eight or twelve, the same identical diet. Right. And those that started at twelve had a lower energy expenditure and they were increased hunger.

Melanie Avalon:
Right.

Valter Longo:
And so now we not only have epidemiological studies, now we have the second pillar, clinical studies showing why that could be a problem. Right. So start at twelve. Now you're going to be more hungrier and your metabolism slows.

Melanie Avalon:
Did they actually end up eating more still?

Valter Longo:
I don't think they. No, they were being fed the same exact food. They brought them to the hospital and they gave them the food. So then the very controlled study, right? Yeah. So then, of course, if somebody only eats once a day, like in your case, well, eventually you're going to be able to control it and still have benefits. But in the general population, just that change caused problems. Multiple problems.

Melanie Avalon:
I was thinking of the studies where they skip breakfast and they are hungrier, but they don't ultimately end up eating more because they can't literally compensate for that entire skipped meal by making it up later.

Valter Longo:
No, they knew exactly what they were eating because they did it in the hospital. Right? Yeah. So then this was very controlled. So it's very clear that the results and multiple trials actually were in the same issue. This cell metabolism from about a year ago, multiple trials were showing the same thing.

Melanie Avalon:
Very interesting. Okay, well, one more last topic. I want to be really respectful of your time. So many people just wanted to know, in general, your blanket recommendations for lifespan and longevity. So some rapid fire, just some quick questions. Stephanie wanted to know, how can I live to 100 or sorry, to 180?

Valter Longo:
Good luck. Tell me. If you find out, then tell me. But to 110, I would say read the book. All the profits go to, all. My part goes to the foundation so we can help people live longer. And so I don't make a penny out of it. But yeah, the longevity diet goes through it. But in general, number one pescatarian diet, fish plus vegan, maybe fish three times a week, high nourishment, low protein, let's say age 20 to 70, and then you go. Moderate protein intake, wash the amino acids, because if you have vegan, you cannot just have legumes. You have to have legumes, seeds, and nuts varieties so that you get the right amino acids. Then 12 hours a day of time. Recipe, eating maybe 13 hours a day of fasting. Say twelve to 13 hours a day of fasting. If you're overweight or obese, skip lunch like I do, Monday through Friday, and then you can have the normal three meals on Saturday and Sunday. Then 150 minutes a week of exercise, plus an hour a day of walking, and then three cycles of fasting. Five day fasting, making diet per year. Yes. So those are the major recommendations.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, Dr. Longo, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all the work that you're doing. I've just been forever grateful for so long, and I've been such a follower of your work. And like I said, I was overwhelmed looking at your list of studies. And I'm really excited to see everything that comes in the future. So just thank you. I will continue to follow your work. Hopefully we can bring you back on in the future.

Valter Longo:
Sounds good. Thanks a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Bye bye.

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LINKS

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Jan 07

Episode 351: Biohacking Conferences, Muscle Protein Synthesis, Resistance Training, Sleep, Melatonin, Probiotics, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 351 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

Listener Q&A: Shelley - Does eating alot of protein help with sleep?

AIRDOCTOR: Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 351 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 351 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina:
Hi, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
What is new in your life, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, seeing as we're now in 2024, I have a new baby. What else is happening? I'm really excited for this new year that has arrived, and 2023 was absolutely amazing. So I'm very excited about what's to come in 2024. But yeah, what's new with you?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this is funny. No? Here's a question, because I actually got an email. I'll do a shout out because I know he listens to the show. Damon, who's awesome. He's actually a moderator in both two of my Facebook groups and my if Biohackers group and my Lumen CGM Aura. I have a group for all of those different devices. He was commenting on the time shift, how we record a while back and we talk about things in the past, but it's actually a different time. And he said he likes hearing what we're doing, even though it's in the past. This would be a good poll. I should poll the audience. Do they want to hear what's actually happening, even if it's way outdated, like around holidays and stuff, or do they want to hear stuff relevant to that time? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
So for listeners, I was just being silly because it's the end of October for us, but I know that this is airing in the new year, so I was like, there's going to be a lot of new things when this episode comes out. But, yeah, it's a couple of months away. Just like two and a half months away. But I'm so excited for the new year. I'm already excited for it. But yes, I like the idea of the poll, but I don't think there's really much we could do about it unless we were pretending we were in the future, like I did when we started the episode and it felt really unnatural and weird.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. What's new with you?

Melanie Avalon:
I did get asked to be a speaker at a biohacking summit in Dubai.

Vanessa Spina:
That's super exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
My travel skills, I don't think they're up there.

Vanessa Spina:
Know it's hard sometimes. I love speaking, and I've been taking a break from it for a couple of years. I was asked to speak at a biohacking conference. I think it's in Norway or Finland or Sweden. Sorry.

Melanie Avalon:
I know which one you're talking about. That one. Is it the winter one? Not winter, but I just think of winter because it's up there.

Vanessa Spina:
They're moving it to April now. And I said no before because I have Luca and I feel like I'm in this season right now where I'm just not in that mode. I feel like you have to be in that mode where you have your presentation ready and you're doing it all the time and you're speaking on a regular basis. And when you get out of it, like I've been for the past couple of years, like, having a baby and now a second baby, it's like, I know I need to get back into it, but it's hard to get back into it because I'm like, I don't want to go anywhere. I just want to stay in our little cozy bubble. But, yeah, I think those kind of events are so much fun. And if you do go and present, I think you'd have an amazing time.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. I'm not going to. Two thoughts about that. I don't have a desire to be a speaker at events. I would much rather attend them and cap out with that.

Vanessa Spina:
You don't enjoy speaking? I love speaking.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I do love. Okay, wait, let me backtrack. I love being on stage. I think I would like speaking. I think that the issue is that I also want to really enjoy the event and so energetically. It just seems like a lot if I was also a speaker.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it is, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you just said.

Vanessa Spina:
But that's what I mean. Sometimes you get in, like, a groove in a zone, and you're just like, I have my talk down and I loved it. The one that you asked me about was my favorite talk. The one that I had on autophagy is my favorite. Anytime someone asks me to speak, I'm like, can I talk about autophagy? Because it gets me so excited that I love geeking out about the macrophages and the whole cellular. I love talking about it. I love presenting about it. I think if you have a topic, I've had other talks, though, where I didn't feel that way about them and I didn't look forward to speaking as much. And I would also get more nervous before presenting, especially when I was talking about myself and my health journey and experience. I really don't like doing that on stage. But then when I started to find topics where I'm like, this lights me up. That's when I started. I think it really comes down to the material that you're presenting, and if you feel fired up about it and you feel like the audience is going to have some mind blowing moments and huge takeaways and they're going to feel like that was really valuable, then I think that makes a big difference in how you feel about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I think if it was like an event and I could just go and speak and, yeah, I really actually think it's just the other factors of I would love it, but I would be so drained and then it would be hard for me to enjoy. Especially if it's like a multi day conference.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, you know yourself best, so you got to reserve your energy for what you want it for.

Melanie Avalon:
So many things. I guess in the meantime, there's all the virtual summits. Actually, I will have just done. Are you doing that fasting summit? The Dr. Jockers?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I haven't heard of it, actually. I don't think I have a reputation as like an intermittent fasting expert. That's definitely more you.

Melanie Avalon:
That makes sense. Hopefully people are on my email list. I will have just done a fasting one in December. That should be pretty fun. I think they have some pretty good people lined up. melanieavalon.com/emaillist do you have an email list link? I do. Oh, wait, but we talked about this. You don't really send emails.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm starting to. I'm starting to again, actually. I've been reviving it and I'm really enjoying it. I'm starting to send out email recaps of my best content and post about different studies that week. And I'm really enjoying that. But I've only done one so far, so I got to maybe monthly because I was like, I need to do this weekly. And that was just like too much right now, but maybe monthly I can do it. But I do have a sign up on my website when you go there, there's like a pop up. I should get a link though for mine.

Melanie Avalon:
It's pretty automated. So like, I do the Friday email announcement every Friday for the show. And then occasionally if there's something I really want to promote, I'll send it out. And then the crowd favorite is the gift guides, like the holiday gift guides because I put all of the Black Friday deals all in an email. And then for Christmas, like all the deals and my recommended gifts, people find that really, people wait for that. Please, I actually have on my calendar because I got to create that email. It's happening. It's going to be happening when I'm traveling to London, which is going to be a lot. But that's okay. I had one other thought about that. Well, if you do start creating more emails, you could always use chat GTP.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, we were texting about that. I think I probably should. What are you getting it to write for you right now?

Melanie Avalon:
It's so helpful. Okay. So right now, and I want to update listeners on things I'm creating and all that stuff because there are so many things, but there's so many things right now and I'm not sure which one's going to manifest first. That just giving it a pause. Like right now I'm working on my food sense guide app, switching it to subscriptions. So it should already be subscriptions by the time this comes out. So creating a free trial so people can try it for free, which is great. And then it will be a subscription model, and then I want to update it with some features. But when we're working on it, I needed a terms of service. I needed a privacy policy. So I went to chat GTP. I was like, write a terms of service for Melanie Avalon's FoodSense guide app. And it was like, bam. It just spit it out. And it was like almost perfect. And then I was like, well, I wanted to say I wanted it to have more information about not serving as medical advice. So I was like, can you add a clause about not working as medical advice? And it added like the perfect clause with a privacy policy. I was like, write a privacy policy for Melanie Avalon's Bootsense guide app and it would just spit it out.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. That's really helpful.

Melanie Avalon:
So I like it for things like that where it's not like creating content that's pretending to be me. It's like I literally just need a terms of service. It doesn't really matter who wrote it. I do get worried about authenticity and things like that. Yeah. The more I'm using it, I'm like, oh, this is very helpful.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really good.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So anything you need to write stuff like that for with your products, maybe it can help. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
At least even just start it so that you can then go through it after and tweak it or whatever.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it'll be really exciting when it can be more updated to more real time because it'll give you the latest that its database goes up to. So it's a bit dated still, but. Well, anything else or shall we jump into things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would love to jump in to the questions. Our fabulous questions.

Melanie Avalon:
Okie dokie. All right, so our first question comes from Shelly and this is from Facebook and she wants to know, does eating a lot of protein help with sleep?

Vanessa Spina:
I love this question and it's really interesting because I was saying in our last episode that I was thinking about the bio individuality because there is really interesting research, I think actually on both sides, like some affirmative, some negative, but a lot of the research that I have looked at in the past has been how Presleep protein ingestion helps with muscle protein synthesis. So I really like this for people who are really looking to build muscle. Like if you are someone who's either a professional bodybuilder amateur, or you just really want to build muscle, it's an amazing way to actually help you build muscle. And especially for people who really need it, like who are sick or elderly, it's an amazing way to help. There's a really interesting 2019 study that talks about how eating protein right before sleeping, it actually is really effectively digested and absorbed during overnight sleep, and it increases the rates of muscle protein synthesis. So it doesn't appear to reduce appetite when people have breakfast the following day, and it does not appear to change resting energy expenditure or metabolic rate. But it's sort of looked at as sort of a protein supplementation that has a really beneficial effect on increasing muscle mass and strength. So people like the research has shown that it's very beneficial for helping to preserve muscle mass in the elderly, especially when combined with any physical activity or muscle contraction. And eating protein before sleep is also an effective interventional study to increase those rates of muscle protein synthesis during sleep to support skeletal muscle adaptive response to doing resistance training. So I've always really liked it for people who do resistance training, and I think it could be really beneficial, especially for certain populations who need that support with building muscle mass. It can attenuate muscle mass loss in hospitalized older adults as well. So certain, especially clinically compromised older populations who are combining it with exercise, they can really improve their muscle mass with that overnight muscle protein balance. Because you go in this catabolic state when you go to sleep and you have higher rates of muscle protein breakdown, which is why it can be really effective to eat protein, prioritize protein at your first meal today. So you come out of that muscle protein breakdown phase. But there are certain populations that can really benefit from that. So I know the question was more about quality of sleep, and I looked at some resources on this. In particular, there was an interesting study which talked about the connection with the amino acids. So it was looking at how basically protein provides tryptophan, and tryptophan can be converted into serotonin, which in turn can be converted into melatonin. And melatonin is that sleep hormone that regulates our body's sleep and wake cycles. What's really interesting about melatonin is so much research coming out about it right now where people kind of thought that we need melatonin to sleep and have good sleep quality. But it seems like that was one of those correlation, not causation situations where actually the reason that melatonin is associated with sleep is because if you get good sleep, then you have this melatonin rise and it's a mitochondrial antioxidant, because there's so much repair, like your mitochondria is being repaired while you sleep. So you want to have a lot of melatonin. It's not necessarily melatonin that's like making you sleepy, although it can have that effect. It's more so that it rises when you're sleeping because that's when you go into repair, which is really interesting. But the recommendations on eating protein before you sleep is to choose something smaller, like don't have a huge amount of protein before sleep. For most people, if you just have a huge protein meal and then get into bed, it might not be the most comfortable thing. And even just saying that makes me physically uncomfortable because as you and I have talked about a lot, I like to go to bed with at least 3 hours or so, since I've eaten, 4 hours is like ideal. I really don't like the sensation of getting into bed feeling full. So I also think there is some bow individuality, but the research clearly shows it's great for helping support muscle protein synthesis. It can be great in helping provide the amino acids that you need, although there's also other things needed, especially like morning light. Getting uva light can help with those amino acids that are actually, it's initiated through the light being detected by melanopsin receptor in your brain. And then there's these aromatic amino acids, sort of like behind your eye, there's this cascade. So you're getting that morning light and not having exposure to blue light a lot at night can really help make sure that you have a good amount of melatonin. But protein during the day or before sleep, I think it can help. But there's also that bio individuality, like, how do you feel when you get in bed? I know, Melanie, you've talked about how you like to go to bed feeling full, whereas for me, that's the worst possible thing. I just don't feel comfortable like that. So I think you also have to see how does it affect your sleep and sort of try it out and tinker with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. I love that so much. Okay. So many things. First of all, I'm really glad that you talked about that in the beginning about the muscle protein synthesis, because I had not looked that up at all. So that was really good to hear. I'm trying to find, because I got so excited. Do you have these moments when you are reading studies and they talk about something that you were wondering or you specifically wanted to be talked about, and then you find a paragraph talking about it and it's like, yeah, yes.

Vanessa Spina:
Tryptophan, serotonin, melatonin. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. No. It's, like, so exciting. So I actually, in one of the studies, because I was looking over reviews of effects of diet on sleep, and one of them had this random section where it was talking about. I kind of want to tell the history about this because I thought it was so fascinating. They didn't say this specifically, so I don't want to make this assumption, but it was talking in the study about how the first. Well, it was talking about how the first study on milk and sleep, because we often think about. I feel like there's this idea that you drink milk to go to sleep. At least that's what I was told growing up, that milk was like a sleep inducing thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Maria Emerick always talks about this bedtime snack with milk. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I just know, like, it's. I don't know. My mom always told me that milk and my grandmother, that milk was like a thing. So the first study to examine this, oh, it wasn't even just milk. It was the first studies to examine the sleep inducing effects of a specific food ever was in the 1970s. And it was testing horlicks, which was a malted milk drink. So they weren't testing just milk, they were testing milk with this horlicks powder and compared to a control. So that Horlicks powder actually contained wheat malt, barley sugar, milk, and 14 vitamins and minerals. And what I thought was interesting about that was, I just wonder if from there is where we got this idea that milk supports sleep, when really it was this milk drink with other stuff in it. But what's interesting, and this is what relates to what Vanessa was saying, they did a lot of studies surrounding that. And one of the studies, they looked at people who usually ate within an hour of bedtime called the eaters, and those who did not normally eat before bedtime called the non eaters. And they found that the non eaters slept best after consuming what was basically nothing like. It was an inner capsule compared to the eaters. They slept best when they actually had this horlicks drink. And so the authors concluded that it was probably an individual's dietary habits that primarily influenced their response to food. And they talk about this as well, that the issues that often come with a high nocturnal food intake and includes protein affecting sleep quality is probably their postprandial discomfort from digestive activity. In other words, what Vanessa just said, like, know, feeling overly full or not digesting it well, that can negatively influence sleep if that's not what you are used to, if that's not what you do. And I was just so excited because when I was reading all these other studies, they would say that a lot. They would say that a late night meal wasn't conducive to sleep because of the GI distress or the postprandial distress. But then this one little clause was talking about how it really probably comes down to if you do that normally or not. I was so excited. So, basically, if you're used to eating before bed, and that's what helps you sleep well, you probably will sleep well after eating, compared to if you're somebody like Vanessa who does not enjoy that visceral experience, then you probably will not benefit from a large meal before bed. So, to comment on the other things, I went down the rabbit hole with what Vanessa was talking about with the protein and the tryptophan. So, yes, I went down the rabbit hole because basically, the studies are a little bit mixed with protein meals before bed. A lot of it does have to do with what I just said about the individuality of whether or not literally digesting something is what you're used to and if that's conducive to sleep or not. So that's factor one. But then a huge factor is the role of tryptophan. And so it's funny because people will often say that turkey makes you sleepy because it's high in tryptophan. So they'll say that and then you'll read, no, that's actually not the case. It's really just because you're in the post food coma from that huge Thanksgiving meal. And it's not really the tryptophan. I think it's actually pretty complicated, and here's why. So, yes, like Vanessa was saying, tryptophan does help support sleep by converting from tryptophan to serotonin to melatonin, which, to clarify about the melatonin, I, as well, have become really interested in the role of melatonin and mitochondrial health and how even taking supplemental melatonin, not for sleep per se, but for the mitochondrial benefits, is fascinating. I do want to clarify, though, it does induce sleep, right? It just doesn't keep you asleep, but it does instigate the falling asleep state. Or are you saying that they don't even think that it creates that effect?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know exactly. I just know that a lot of the latest research is showing now that the fact that melatonin rises when we sleep is because it's doing all this mitochondrial repair, whereas we've always thought of it as we need melatonin to rise in order to go to sleep, which.

Melanie Avalon:
I think we do because it does induce that state. But then you're saying it's rise after because we know it doesn't keep you asleep. So if it's rising while you're sleeping, presumably that's not to make you fall asleep like you're already asleep, and it's presumably not keeping you asleep either, because that's not its purpose. So I'm guessing this is just me extrapolating. I'm guessing it does help induce falling asleep, but then the endogenous upregulation of melatonin, is that role in the mitochondria, I'm guessing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you take melatonin ever?

Vanessa Spina:
No. I do know, though, that it's very confusing on the amount. So I've heard some people say that the physiological amount of melatonin that we need is actually not in grams. It's much smaller than that. I don't know if it's like micrograms that we're supposed to be taking. So when people take melatonin for sleep, it tends to make them really groggy because most people are overdosing on it. And I did a melatonin experiment, and I found that it helped me go to sleep two nights in a row. It helped my sleep onset, but then by the third day, it made me extremely groggy. And that's always the experience I had with it in the past. And then it was. I think it was Matt from bioptimizers who told me that it's because most people are taking way too much. So they came up with this sleep spray so that you can sort of dose, like, you can micro dose the melatonin in these tiny amounts, and that's actually what we need. Then I remember hearing you and Cynthia talk about how you were taking these mega doses of it because it is this mitochondrial antioxidant. So I was like, I don't understand. It always makes me groggy, so I just don't like to mess with it, really.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I mean, everything you said, I'm just like, yes. I feel like that's so much of the confusion and experience surrounding melatonin. And I know I told this story before, and I might have even told it to you about that time that I literally took a whole bottle by accident. Did I tell you that?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you did. And that was one of the funniest stories. Because you thought it was your digestive enzymes.

Melanie Avalon:
I thought it was my digestive enzymes, yeah, because they're, like, the same bottle, and they're the same capsule size. It's the same everything. And then the next day, I pulled out my digestive enzymes, and. No, I pulled out my melatonin, and it was, like, gone. I was like, oh, that's what happened. Last night.

Vanessa Spina:
You said you had, like, an amazing sleep, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And the funny thing is, I didn't perceive being super groggy or anything. And I really do wonder if I had known I had taken that, if I would have felt way more groggy, I imagine I would have.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you ever end up feeling groggy.

Melanie Avalon:
From that experience or in general, from just that experience? From that? No, I don't have any memory. Yeah, I didn't have any memory. Experience being groggy. And then the next night, when I realized I had taken a whole bottle, I was like, oh, okay. That explains, I don't know. But what's interesting, I have had the experience, you said, of sometimes feeling groggy and sometimes not. And I have a theory. I have a theory about this. I don't know if this is accurate. I wonder because of eating. And when I take it, do those capsules ever and again, this is super not real science, but do those capsules ever end up digesting at later points some nights than others, based on the context that they're in? And then would that affect the timeline of the release of it? That's why I really like what you just said about a spray, like something where you could instantly get it into you and be a smaller dose. That sounds pretty. I should make one of those.

Vanessa Spina:
It makes so much sense, right, that you could just micro dose it. And it scares me when I think of people taking these massive doses when with supplements, sometimes you do more harm than good. I've talked to people who specialize in studying a microbiota and the microbiome and they're like, I always ask them the same question and I'm like, do you think people are kind of like overdoing it with their probiotics? And it's just so funny because they're all like, yeah, because we know probiotics are good for you. And then people started selling them in stores and then the mentality is always like, well, I should get the billion or the trillion, whatever the probiotic with the most lactobilis or the most this or that. And it's like, well, we don't really know is that optimal or not, but we just always think more is better and the biggest dose is going to generate the best response. When there are situations where even that study with the athletes where they took vitamin C and it actually made their performance worse because they needed to generate the antioxidants themselves in order to get better at their performance. And so it's like there's just so much that we think that we know what we're doing and we don't. So there's often situations, I'm like, I think it's better to just not because you could end up making it worse, but I think it's much safer with a microdose, probably.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that you said that about the probiotics. And it's interesting. I was actually listening last night. Have you listened to Peter Tia's most recent episode where he's.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to ask you about it. I haven't yet, but when I saw the Q a come out, I was like, I bet Melanie's going to listen to this one because I was like, I really want to listen to it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm very much enjoying it. Surprise.

Vanessa Spina:
Any big insights?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm not done with it yet. It's Peter answering q a about longevity related topics and his most current thoughts. And one of the questions they asked was his current supplement routine. And he does make it very clear that this is like, his current supplement routine right now and that it is different in the past and will be different in the future. And that's the reason that he doesn't like talking about it. And same with me, when he was saying it, I was, yep. Like, I don't like talking about my supplement routine because it does change. And I feel like if you say something, it gets crystallized. It's like, oh, this is what Melanie does. I feel like sometimes I'll see in Facebook or sometimes I'll see comments and there'll be like a comment, and then somebody will comment be like, well, melanie says blah, blah. And I'm like, whoa, it's not even always accurate. So, yeah, he talks about his supplement routine and he talked about a probiotic. Now that he sold me, now I'm like, I want to try that. He said he picked it based on he thought it had the most impressive clinical research behind it for its effects on blood sugar control and reducing HBA one C and diabetics, which I found really interesting. And I wanted to see which strains were in it. Yeah. So I'll have to look up what it was. I will say with the probiotics, I find a lot of benefit from just having, I think going the fermented food route can be helpful for a lot of people, and it doesn't even take that much, but I'll just have, like, a little bit of sauerkraut every night. And that really, really helps me.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I do. I'm like, just eat the fermented foods. It's so much better than taking a pill.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. I love bioptimizers. P three o m. I've been talking about that for years. I still love it. What I love about it is that it's not a histamine. It's like one strain. I like the ability of having one strain and not having the super histamine producing strains. And it's specifically a protein digesting proteolytic probiotic.

Vanessa Spina:
It's a lot of peas. Yes, I like it too. It's the main one that I have, but I just haven't been taking it as much because I prefer to get it just from the food, fermented foods. Sauerkraut is really big in check. So it's a big part of the lifestyle and sort of cultural food culture.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, my background is german, so sauerkraut is, like, in my veins. Sauerkraut. How do we get on this topic? Okay, because melatonin and supplements.

Vanessa Spina:
So that's why.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And to answer your question, I'm still listening to the episode. But the takeaway so far is he does not think anytime in the near future we will be able to massively extend lifespan. He thinks that's all a lot of talk and that there's not a lot of actual things happening and that it's going to take a major discovery and it probably won't happen. He doesn't think, like, in his lifetime or in his lifetime to the point where it could have an extension of his lifespan.

Vanessa Spina:
They're saying now that our children are the first generation to be born, that is going to have a shorter life expectancy than ours in history. So we're not really cruising towards extending lifespan right now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. The health span issue is the healthspan and lifespan. It's crazy because on the one hand, it's like two paths. We have this path of degenerative disease and health issues related to our diet and our environment and our lifestyle, which is going one direction, which is the direction you just mentioned, reducing lifespan. Then we have these technological developments to discover modalities to extend lifespan, potentially by combating these, quote, hard limits, these proverbial hard limits related to aging and mortality. So it's like two completely divergent things happening. The thing that haunts me is when he talks about cardiovascular disease risk and being on statins, because he really thinks that if you really want to obliterate your heart disease risk, you need to be on pharmaceuticals.

Vanessa Spina:
Don't agree. He's.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. He's getting to me. I'm like, I don't know. So any case, back to the protein and sleep and all the things and the tryptophan. So I was talking about the milk, and this is funny or interesting, Vanessa, what are the odds? Did you know they have done studies. Did you know, did you know that the time that you milk a cow affects the amount of melatonin in the milk?

Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. They have done studies on, quote, nighttime milk. So if you milk the cows at night, there's more melatonin in the milk.

Vanessa Spina:
I have seen that with human breast milk. So if you pump your breast milk, you're supposed to only give your baby the breast milk that you pump during the day because it's going to have more cortisol and the breast milk that you pump at night. Or you should pump at night and give them that breast milk at night because it'll have more melatonin.

Melanie Avalon:
Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And people have babies, like, who are up all night because they're giving them milk they pumped in the morning, which is, like, higher in cortisol.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's so fascinating. I was reading this last night, and I don't drink milk, but I was like, I want to make a nighttime milk product. I want to find the cows and milk them at night. Like, oh, my gosh. Like the promo. I could dress up like a, you know, like the milk. The milk girls. A milkmaid. Milkmaid.

Vanessa Spina:
German milkmaid. They have those costumes. They're really cute.

Melanie Avalon:
I really want to have a milkmaid brand now. Like nighttime milkmaid. Nighttime milkmaid. Avalon X.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really cute.

Melanie Avalon:
So the studies on it, though. So they did one study where they looked at milking cows at nighttime as opposed to daytime. They did a long term crossover study in 70 elderly patients with dementia to look at the effects. They actually found no effect of the nighttime milk over eight weeks on sleep quality. But they did find that when they drank the nighttime milk that they had greater morning and evening physical activity, which was seen as beneficial, which is interesting. Another study showed that melatonin enriched milk improved sleep efficiency and reduced the number of awakenings in middle aged adults with insomnia. And nighttime milk, which has, like I said, has melatonin and tryptophan, which I'm going to circle back to, shortens the onset and prolongs the duration of sleep. So basically, they fall asleep faster and they sleep longer in mice, and it has a sedating effect. I'm actually pretty shocked that a major brand has not done this yet with their milk. This could be a thing. That's why I want to do it. Even though I don't drink milk. I might do this. Friends, I'm not kidding. Maybe if I met, like, in, like five years or six years. In, like a decade. If I'm just like an entrepreneur, like, doing all the things.

Vanessa Spina:
There's so many, it's like, it's hard to choose sometimes what you put your energy into. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
And this is something where just to make a quick comment, for example, like Blake Lively, who I really love, Blake Lively, she's been getting some backlash because she doesn't drink alcohol, but she released a, in her beverage line, she released an alcoholic drink, and she got backlash because she doesn't drink. I'm just thinking about it. This would be the situation with me and the milk. I would totally do this, even though I don't drink milk. Like, I think you can still create something if you believe in it for whatever reasons, for certain people, even if it's not what you use, of course.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So just tangents there. Back to the tryptophan. So tryptophan is an amino acid, like I said, and we said, that leads to serotonin and the melatonin. Here's the thing, though, it's complicated. You can't just eat a lot of protein high in tryptophan and be like, yay, all the tryptophan I'm going to fall asleep does not work that way. Why? Here's why a few different reasons. One, tryptophan only has this magical ability to do everything we just said if it crosses the blood brain barrier. In order to cross the blood brain barrier, it competes with other amino acids, specifically large chain neutral amino acids. So those are called lcnaas. So if you have a high protein food, it's often high in both tryptophan and these large chain neutral amino acids, meaning the tryptophan can't get into the brain because it gets outcompeted. However, there are a few things that address this. Certain proteins have a higher tryptophan to LCNA ratio. So basically, there's more tryptophan than those other amino acids. So the tryptophan kind of wins and gets into your brain. And so that's the case with a lot of plant based proteins as well as egg protein. It has one of the highest tryptophan to LNAA profiles. Interestingly, one of the lowest profiles is in dairy. And then when it comes to those plant sources, nuts and seeds have the highest tryptophan content compared to the lnaas. And fruits also have a really nice ratio, but they're so low in protein that it's not quite as applicable. There's another way around it, though. So if you have carbs, they release insulin. Insulin actually preferentially reduces those large chain neutral amino acids in the bloodstream, but does not affect tryptophan. So if you have protein with carbs, you reduce those competing amino acids, and then the tryptophan can go into the brain. So that's why having protein with carbs can actually be a way to help support your sleep. There's actually been a ton of studies on this, and that's generally the vibe, but as per usual, they'll find different things in different populations. And one of the studies was talking about this and they said it probably has to do with the individuality, it has to do with how these are all set up different. There are just so many factors, but probably on just a purely mechanical basis. Proteins with a higher tryptophan to large neutral amino acid ratio is helpful. And then pairing it with carbs. And then just some studies. For example, in general, one study found that participants experienced, they woke up less during the night when they had a high protein meal. Two studies looked at the effect of, oh, I thought this was interesting. It looked at calorie restricted, energy restricted diets, but with protein. And they are like, basically with focusing on protein, they found that their sleep with 20% protein intake had the best improvement in their sleep, compared to less 10% or more, which was 30%. Interestingly, in that one, they found that the source of protein did not affect it. So just talk about how things were conflicting. So they were looking at beef and pork versus soy and legumes, and they found that they didn't find a difference there. Another study looked at low protein intake, which was less than 16% of energy, and they found that it associated with poor quality of sleep, and it was slightly associated with difficulty in falling asleep compared to high protein intake, which they call greater than 19%. That actually had issues with staying asleep. So it seems like, again, kind of like the study I just mentioned, where 20% was a sweet spot and compared to ten or 30% with this one. Too low head issues, too high had issues. The best seemed to be, I mean, presumably the best would be somewhere in the middle. And then to comment again on the carb aspect. So, in general, that carb pairing with protein might be beneficial, but the type of carbs probably matter. So they do not find that carbs from sugar, so more refined carbs seem to have a negative effect on sleep. Fiber seems to have a beneficial effect. And it's probably the whole foods forms of carbs that are more helpful. So not like sugar, sugar. This is not saying to eat a lot of sugar, to fall asleep. That's probably not the way to go. And then I got really excited, because in one of these studies, they were talking about fasting and sleep, and they were talking about how there actually was not a lot of studies on diet and fasting and sleep, which I thought was pretty interesting. So one study looked at the basic takeaway from the few studies that it looked at was that fasting did not have a super measurable effect on sleep. Either way, I would actually like to go down the rabbit hole and see if there are more studies, but that wasn't my focus of research when I was looking this up. And then just because it was talking about it, I will point this out there. There have been some studies on certain foods supporting sleep. And specifically one thing I had experimented with, which was, like, tart cherries. Have you ever taken or used tart cherry juice, Vanessa? Or had tart cherries?

Vanessa Spina:
I've definitely heard about it. And there's another one, too, that's. It's something with bitter lemon or something, but I haven't tried it.

Melanie Avalon:
There was a period of time where I really had pretty bad insomnia, and I was trying all the different things, and I would do the tart cherry juice and I mean, yeah, it would really help me sleep, and it's really high in melatonin. There are actually a lot of studies. There was a whole section in one of the papers on tart cherries and then just normal cherries. But the data is pretty supportive of those cherries having a sleep promoting effect, as well as kiwis, which made me happy because I love kiwi. Reason I love Kiwis, kiwis and pineapple is they both have enzymes that help digest protein, which I definitely went through kiwi phases. Are you a kiwi person or a pineapple person?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've eaten those in, like, over a decade.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. I had my pineapple phase.

Vanessa Spina:
Really had any fruit other than berries.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, right. I forget who I'm talking to.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm like pineapple. To me, that's just like pure sugar. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just how it affects me is not good. Like when we were talking about insatiability for me, that's what high amounts of carbs do for me. Although I still want to test it with high protein. I haven't really done that before. I still want to do that. But for me, if I have a lot of sugar, especially in fruit, I just makes me ravenous. I just want to eat all the time. So that's one of the reasons I haven't had it in so many years.

Melanie Avalon:
Two comments on that one. Hands down, the least inflamed I ever felt. And listeners know this if they've been with me for these past six years. I went through a period of time where I was eating so much pineapple, and the amount of proteolytic enzymes I was getting from that pineapple. I think it was crazy what it was doing beneficially. And if you think about it, if you ever get surgery, they'll tell you. I mean, this has happened to me multiple times now. They suggest having pineapple, like, before and after for the recovery process. And I just think that's really telling, that you could do it acutely for surgery. So think about if you're having it as a staple of your diet, which I did for so long. And the reason, though, the reason I haven't brought it back is I feel like, I don't know if it's age or whatever, but I feel like I can't tolerate as much now that high sugar content anymore, which makes me sad. I have goals of becoming a pineapple girl again, but I've just been doing blueberries. Oh, which, side note, I got so excited last night, I was reading an article. This made my day. It was about frozen blueberries being better for the antioxidant potential than fresh blueberries. And I eat, like, pounds of frozen blueberries every night. It's because the ice crystals that form actually break down. Like, the antioxidants are found largely in the skin, and something about the ice crystal structure affects how makes them more accessible to your body.

Vanessa Spina:
That's interesting. One of my friends, she's Sylvia Tabor. She's known as, like, the biohacking chick, she did this thing with pineapple. I just wanted to mention it. I know we're not talking about blueberries now, but she did this experiment with crazy amounts of MCT oil powder and pineapple, and we did a whole podcast about it because she lost, like, 20 pounds in a month or something doing this, and everyone wanted to know what she was doing. And it was like she was doing this MCT oil powder, and she was taking quite a bit of it throughout the day. And then there were quite a few people who came out who were in the low carb space, were like, there's no way that that's real. And it became really controversial. And then we did this live, and I had to take it down because it was like, getting so much.

Melanie Avalon:
You took it down?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was, like, too much. I was getting hundreds of messages a day from people who were demanding to know what she took, exactly how many times, how many grams, which product, and I was like, I can't do this. It was just so insane. We still had the podcast episode, but it created this frenzy of interest in people who follow her and me. And it was like, I have to stop. And then I just shut it down completely. Like, I purged all the content about it because it was so crazy how much it affected people.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I remember that time. That's when actually, when we became. I mean, I guess we're kind of like friends. We started talking on Instagram during that whole time. She actually reached out to me, I think originally, because she knew I had been talking about MCT oil and adding that to my diet. So we had a whole. What you were just talking about? So we had a whole conversation. We were talking a lot about it back then, one on one. I always found her so fascinating because I just looked at her instagram. Now she shows her face, but she would never show her face on her instagram.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was always her abs.

Melanie Avalon:
It was always her body. And I was like, what does her face look like? But now her profile is her face. Yeah, no, that's really interesting. And I actually had Sylvia, I had talked with her as well about all of that stuff with the MCTs, especially when. Because I had, and I've talked a lot on this show about using MCTs with diet and losing weight, but I never combined it with high carb. I was doing low carb with MCT oil. I know she does the powder. It's a whole thing. Yeah. So, yes, I think we tackled it pretty much. Did we answer the question about protein and sleep?

Vanessa Spina:
I think this is such an important topic, and I love that we both explored different areas of research on it, and I think we covered it pretty in depth.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Me too. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode351 and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I love this topic. I'm so grateful, as always, for listener questions, feedback, and support, and can't wait for the next episode with you and excited for the start of 2024.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. Happy 2024 to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I will see you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Sounds great.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 31

Episode 350: NMN, NAD Patches, Finding Your Fasting Pattern, Excess Protein, Overeating, New Years Resolutions, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #227 - Dan Levitt

Welcome to Episode 350 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Go to www.melanieavalon.com/ionlayer to get $100 off NAD patches with the code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early is better?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 350 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 350 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, 350. Is that a milestone? Should we have made this some sort of episode? Like a special episode?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever done that for 350. I remember doing it for like 100 and then maybe the hundred, every increment of 100. I just had 500 on mine and I celebrated that.

Melanie Avalon:
500? Whoa.

Vanessa Spina:
But 50 in between? I don't know, like, maybe 400 or 500 would be. We can do something big for them.

Melanie Avalon:
400?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow. 500. Congratulations. That's a long time podcasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't even actually do much for it, and then my brother texted me and he was like, oh, my gosh, congrats on 500 episodes. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
350 is a nice number, though. It's great.

Melanie Avalon:
What was your first podcast experience, like, episode?

Vanessa Spina:
So I actually did it with my best friend Jess's brother, and we sat down together in Vancouver, and I had all the equipment on the dining table of this airbnb where I was staying, and her Brother Billy came over and we did an episode on hormones and exercise. He's like a personal trainer. It was really fun and it was in person, so we got to sit there and just podcast together. And I was like, oh, that was amazing. And, yeah, it's definitely one of the top downloaded episodes, obviously, because of the first one, but it did really well. That first one did well. And, yeah, I was so excited. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, so your first in person, and I've still never done an in person. Did you continue it in person?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I just did that one because I thought it would be a fun way to break the ice. Her brother Billy and I have a really good relationship and great chat. So I was like, this would be a great person to do the first episode with. Just like, not like an expert guest, but someone who's knowledgeable and someone that I flow really well with. So we did a really fun first episode, and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But I had, over the years before that, been invited on other people's podcasts, and every time I would do one, I was like, this is so fun. I love this. I get in the flow. I get in a flow state. I feel amazing. I could do this for hours. I was like, I need to do this. I need to podcast. So I was pretty excited to make the decision.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. I don't think I'd been actually, I might have been on. Oh, I do remember my first podcast, and I was so nervous. And it wasn't even. Not to say anything bad about podcasts, but it was not like a big deal podcast. But I was like, oh, I was so scared. And, wow, that puts things in perspective. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to record in person. How do you feel about, this is so random. When you're trying to find something that you need, how do you feel about the research? A lot. Be really specific. Try to find the perfect thing approach versus the throw it at the wall. Just like reach out to a million different options and kind of just see what manifests approach.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends on the thing, but I usually like to do both. I like to research, especially if it's something I'm not super knowledgeable on, so that I have lots of information. But I'm also a big fan of experimentation, so I think that's the best way to figure out the optimal way of doing something, trying different approaches. I'm such a big fan of experimentation when it comes to lifestyle, diet, nutrition, everything. So I like combining both.

Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Okay. Yeah. I thought about it for two reasons. One, I recently aired an episode. I think I mentioned it. Did I mention this last time? Dr. Jennifer Gutman and her beyond Happiness book and how she talks about how all decisions are guesses?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you mentioned it because we had a question related to that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. That's right. I feel like I did this two nights ago because I'm still trying to find somebody in Austin when I go record with Dave Asprey in person to do the tech aspect because I was like, I need to research and find the person and make this a thing. And then I was like, I just can't do this. So I literally just wrote an email asking for what I wanted. And then I googled Austin podcast studios and then I literally just clicked the first dozen links. These are for in person podcast studios. And I just sent it to them asking if they could come help me remotely, which is like, not a service that any of these people, but. And I was like, whoever answers, I'll.

Vanessa Spina:
Just be like, yes, that's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon:
And then we'll be done. I'm not even going to think about it. Just like the first person that says I can do it, I'll be like, okay, come with me. This could go really bad, but that's fine. Point being of that is I think I used to be neurotic about all decisions and over researching and finding the perfect thing, and now I'm just to the point sometimes where it's like, you know what? Whatever works. Whatever works. We're just going to go with it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, you've been doing this for so long and we talked about before you doing like a dress rehearsal with your sister.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
It really works. See that?

Melanie Avalon:
But that would be putting in all the, all the energy where I'm kind of like, it would. I think I'm just going to not just show up because there's a lot of orchestration, but there's just like so much in life. Wow, this was a tangent. I did not mean to go down. I did want to share a resource really quick with listeners. So I've talked a lot about both NAD and NMN. So, long story short, NAD is basically a master metabolic coenzyme in the body. It's involved in all of your living cells, all energy production, everything that you do. It's more complicated than that. It's actually like a NAD NADH ratio. But regardless, declines in NAD are associated with aging and disease, and a lot of people focus on boosting their NAD levels. And so I've talked about this a lot. I take an NMN supplement nightly, even though it's confusing right now because the FDA is being weird about it. So it can be a little bit hard to get. I've also been doing NAD infusions. I did those for about, I don't know, maybe six to eight months. I was doing them every week. Have you done those, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So I like them. They're just very expensive. Very expensive, and they do not make me feel good in the moment. Like, they make me feel bad. So I'm like, this is a lot of money to pay to feel pretty bad for, like, a little bit. So those are the injections. There's also ivs, which are even more expensive, and I have not done one of those because I was like, there's no way I'm going to pay that much to feel this bad for a few hours compared to the injection, which. So it's an intramuscular injection. It lasts for, like, ten minutes, so I don't feel that well. In any case, a brand reached out to me called Ion layer, and they make NAD patches, and I am so excited because they're way more affordable than the injections and the IVs, and they have data showing that they do clinically boost NAD levels. And it's just so easy to do. Like, they send you the patches and then the Ned and some saline and some water, and it's like a whole process, but it's easy once you learn how to do it. And you basically activate the NAD and then you wear the patch. And it's kind of like for listeners who wear continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't stick anything into your skin, but it sticks on your skin, and then you put a cover over it that's kind of like those CGM covers. I'm obsessed. I have replaced doing the injections with these patches, so I'm doing these patches once a week, and I'm doing them because I tend to go out on Friday or Saturday, so I wear them after the next day after going out to boost my NAD from my activities. So I actually have an incredible code for listeners. Like, incredible. So you can actually get $100 off your first kit, which is crazy. So $100 off with the code, MELANIEAVALON. So for that, I'll make a link. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, that will take you there, and you can use that code, Melanie Avalon, for $100 off. So again, I highly recommend it. I'm going to implement this into my life and use it every week. They last for 14 hours. Okay, that's my update. Anything from you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I just finished having the latest protein shake with the latest version of tone protein, and it tasted great. It's really interesting. It's been taking a little bit longer than we anticipated to get the flavor right. And it turns out, because tone protein has added leucine in it. Leucine is a super bitter amino acid, so we've been trying different formulations. I think I also shared on the podcast how the tone protein samples that I had were making the tone device go crazy. And it was because there was actually alcohol in the vanilla, so we had to get rid of that, get another natural vanilla.

Melanie Avalon:
That still blows my mind. That really blows my mind that it lasted that long.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you sure? Yeah. I know you're sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I know. And the funny thing is, I was thinking, too, because I have tamari a lot with different meals I make, because I make a lot of low carb, like, asian food. And I was like, I use tamari, and there's a tiny bit of alcohol in there, but it doesn't seem to affect the tone device. But if I have cabbage, then the tone will blow, like, as much as if I had a glass of wine because of this raphano sugar in there. So there's certain things that it really does affect. But with that sample, as soon as I figured it out, it made so much sense, and it was very clear that that was the only thing. There was three days that week that it happened, and the only thing I changed was having that sample of tone protein. But then when I was talking to Scott a little bit more, he said that the vanilla also had some quote unquote natural sugars in it. And I was like, squeeze me. What? I was like, what do you mean, natural sugars? So apparently there were these natural sugars in, and I was like, this is like a non negotiable for me, like, no sugars. I don't want any alcohol in it. And as you like, Scott understands that particularness, know, festival or whatever you want to call it when it comes to supplements. So he was like, totally get it. Totally get you. Let's fix it. So I just got the new samples, like, 3 hours ago, and I just made my regular shake with almond milk and ice and tone protein. And so this version has something called a bitter blocker added into it, and I'm trying to keep it with as minimal ingredients as possible, but leucine is that bitter. That the bitter blocker actually made a huge difference. So I just was, like, having the last bites of it as we started chatting tonight, and it was great. So I think we have our winner. There's three other versions that he sent me as well, and some of them have some gums, like organic gums, like xanthum gum. Scott says there's all these health benefits. I was like, can we do it without the gums? He's like, there's really a lot of health benefits to them. Then finally, I said, can we do one without the gums? But instead, he decided to put collagen in. So I think that is going to help with the overall flavor profile and the bitter blocker. So nothing wrong with having some collagen in there. And, yeah, I'm excited because I think we finally have our winner. But it's crazy how long it takes with flavors, because when you have a supplement that's encapsulated, you don't have to worry about the way it tastes. Right? But when it's a supplement that's also a food, like protein powder, it's also got to taste great and not have weird aftertaste or not have alcohol in it. That's going to mess with my tone device and all my community members that love to use the tone, I don't want them to be having weird results. So, yeah, I'm excited because it tasted really good. So I think we're going to be able to launch really soon.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that is very exciting. I know what you mean about the flavor taste stuff, because right now, working on the spirit, Lena, that's something where you taste it and it's like a whole nother ballpark of the sensory experience to address. Congratulations. It's exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
I just have to swallow the spirulina. Like the spirulina and the chlorella. I just have to swallow it because I don't like the taste of any of those kind of green things.

Melanie Avalon:
I can't wait for your final manifestation.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, it's just so funny that I just happened to be eating it, like, right as we started and we were chatting.

Melanie Avalon:
People are going to be so excited to finally get it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, me too. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, by the time this comes out, this comes out January 1. Vanessa, we forgot.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year. That's what we should be celebrating.

Melanie Avalon:
We forgot to start looking at the date. Okay. Mental note. Melanie, look at the date. Okay. And now it's, like, too late. We're like, I have an idea. Let's talk about intermittent fasting and the new year.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, let's take a.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the. Like, we're on a train, and we're going to go down a different track. Or Disney. Wait, before that. How can people get all over the place? How can people get on the email list or get your tone protein and. Or find out information about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
If you would like to be updated when it's going to be out. That's at Toneprotein.com. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll be added to the list. And it's the exclusive launch discount list, so it'll be the biggest discount we ever offer on tone protein. So that's at toneprotein.com. And thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. I'm so excited for you. I know it's been a long journey with you getting this formulation, so it's really exciting for the final version to come. And I know it's going to be the very best of the best.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
January 1. This is a question that must be asked of you, because I don't think we've had this conversation. Do you make New Year's resolutions?

Vanessa Spina:
I knew that was coming. I feel like it's always a blank slate. It's always an opportunity to set goals. But I'm not a big resolution person. I like to just be sort of setting goals all throughout the year and always trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm moving towards, something that I'm excited about, something that I'm just a goal oriented person. So resolutions are not really like, it feels more forced. I don't know. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm the exact same way. My life is driven by goals. It's exhausting in a good way. So I don't ever really have the need for a date with a specific goal because I would just have done that anyways. There's not any goal. If there was a goal I wanted, I would have already made it. It would be hard for me to think of something to do because I'm probably already actively pursuing it. How do you feel about. We have talked about this in past shows on New Year's, the pretty shocking statistics about how long diet resolutions last. How do you feel about New Year's goals? And is it a good time to try a new fasting window or a diet goal or something like that?

Vanessa Spina:
I do like it. I do think it's a good time to reset. A lot of people also like September for that. But it's really interesting because this is so pervasive. And if you work in health and wellness and fitness, then you know how seasonal it is. And there is this trend. Like, you can look it up even if you just look on Google trends, like see what people are searching. But if you work in health and fitness, if you work, especially helping people to improve their body composition, lose fat and build muscle, it's crazy what a high there is in January for wellness. People are super interested in wellness. And I like that. I like that people have that feeling of like, it's a new year, it's a blank slate. I'm going to be at my most fit ever, or I'm going to try this or try that. That they get this renewed sense of energy and desire and focus. I really like that. It's like, take that ride, that wave, use it to your advantage. The same way that women every month who are cycling have that first ten days of. Whenever you start a new cycle, you get this superwoman energy. Like, you have this estrogen rising. It's a great time to start a new lifestyle, nutrition plan, new fasting window, whether it's circadian fasting or Omad or whatever it is that you're interested in trying, take advantage. I think of those energetic highs and, yeah, it kicks off in January, really peaks, like January, February, March, April, May, then starts to slow down a little bit. There's a little bit of a summer slowdown, then it picks back up again towards September, and then it goes to the annual low between basically Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's events and everything that people have. No one's really thinking anymore about getting fit during that time, unless you're weird like us. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think it's great that people have that reset feeling.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. I love that so much. It's made me realize something about my life in that I feel like when I was younger, I used to always be sad about January coming because I didn't want the holidays to end. Like, I just loved Christmas so much. And it was like once January came, it's like, well, the sparkle is gone, but now life is just so exciting that I don't feel that way ever. I'm like, bring it on. I'm so excited about everything new. I do remember a statistic about the holiday weight gain that has stuck with me for a long time. And it was basically that people don't gain as much as we think. I'd have to find the study, and it was a while ago that I read it, but it wasn't a ton. Like, it was like a couple of pounds, but they don't tend to lose that. So it's like, people tend to maintain adding that pound or two extra each year. It doesn't go away. So, like, each year, their base point or their baseline is rising, which is concerning. I'm also really fascinated by the idea or the concept. I think about this a lot with cycles, how it feels like it's. I don't know if I can articulate this. It feels like we've been there before, and it feels like we're going in circles, but really, it's all new. That haunts me. I don't know how to articulate this. Like, weeks, like, we think it's Monday again, like, we've been here. We think it's Tuesday again, but really, it's all a new day, every single day. That really stresses me out if I think about it too much.

Vanessa Spina:
Which part stresses you out?

Melanie Avalon:
That we feel like we've been here before, but we haven't. It's literally, like, moving forward on the timeline.

Vanessa Spina:
What weirds me out is when I think about how we have these frameworks, about time and calendars.

Melanie Avalon:
They're not real.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're not real.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, good. You understood what I was saying. Okay. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Because I'm like, okay. I think of each week as seven days, and I know that it helps me mentally to know that I have five work days and two weekend days with holidays or long weekends or whatever, and that seven days. There's something about it that feels comforting that you have your calendar and you know each week and what your Monday is and everything, but I often think about the fact that it's totally made up and that there is no real thing. But as humans and the way our minds are, we thrive with that framework and having that consistency of the weeks and the calendar. And, I mean, some of it is real, right? Because we do have light cycles of day and night. We do have monthly cycles with the moon, and there's, like, the gregorian calendar and all this stuff. But I feel like this is something you need to get into on your rabbit hole podcast with Scott.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's such a good. So I'm just so happy you knew what I was saying. You articulated it. So we. We come up with this time structure, but it's not like we're like, oh, this is a Monday. This is another Monday. But, no, this is actually a new not. You have not been here before. It's very stressful to make it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's like one of those middle of the night thoughts, like, you wake up and you can't get back to sleep, and you're just like, the calendar isn't real. You're just staring at the ceiling with wide eyes going like, but it's Thursday. But it's not actually. It's just like, yeah, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
We'Ve had this moment? Oh, my goodness. No. I had a moment, actually, when I was reading, I mentioned interviewing Dan Levitt for his book what's gotten into you? About the history of atoms from the big bang until us. And he had, like, one sentence there that was so casual and such a throwaway, and I fixated on it. He mentioned how planets. Certain planets, rotate on their side or something. And I was like, how do we know what their side is that's not real? Who said where up is or down?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, gravity, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
But with planets rotating, they're just in. Like.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, in relation to what I know. And those moments, I think, are important to know. When we were in Greece, we were walking and we all just looked up at the sky and we're telling, like, we live on a planet, and those are the stars, and the planet is going around the. And every time I think about that, I'm just like, what am I even like? We live on a planet that's just. None of it makes sense. But, yeah, it's all just, like, pretty wild.

Melanie Avalon:
Reminds me of probably one of my favorite lines in a Disney movie. Do you know what it is? Based on our conversation, can you guess?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think that I'll have enough time to guess.

Melanie Avalon:
It's in Lion King, when they're looking at the stars.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, what do they.

Melanie Avalon:
It's. What is it? It's Timon and Pumbaa discussing the stars. Oh, and Simba, he's present. And they're talking about. What are the stars? Simba is talking about how he was told that his dad told him the stars are like the kings of the past. And then Timon kind of talks down to him, and he's like, no, they're fireflies. Like, the stars are fireflies. And then Pumbaa's like. Because when you're little, this just goes over your head. But Pumbaa's like. I always thought they were, know, big balls of gas burning thousands of miles away.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember Pumbaa saying that.

Melanie Avalon:
And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, Pumbaa, you're so silly. But really, it's completely accurate. Yeah, because that's when Timon's like, no, they're fireflies stuck in that big, black sticky. It's so good. So good.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to show Luca lion king.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Yes. All the Disney stuff. He can wear his. Oh, I wanted you to say it because you texted it to me. So, what does he call the fireman outfit?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, Finerman. He's like, luca. We put him in the fireman suit, and I was like, I think he's going to like this. No, he loves it. And he wouldn't take it off. And he just kept looking at himself in the mirror. He's like, luca Feynman. Luca Feynman. We were like, yeah, Luca, you're a Feynman. And then he wanted to sleep in it, and he didn't want to take it off. He's got a little fire extinguisher and a little helmet, and he's got a little megaphone or whatever, and it's so cute. He's going to be so excited to wear it for Halloween. And I know it's the new year now. This is going to sound a little dated, but, yeah, Luca got to be a fineman.

Melanie Avalon:
The picture you sent me was, like, the cutest thing ever. I was smiling, so. Oh, treasures. Treasure yet? And maybe when this comes out, you'll have another treasure.

Vanessa Spina:
Hopefully, I definitely will. By that time. By the time this is out. Yeah, I'll be in the baby bubble. The love bubble.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Very exciting. Okay, well, happy New Year's to everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Happy new year.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Use this time energetically, this made up time, this fake construction, to fuel your life accordingly. I'm excited. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, so to start things off, this is actually an update question. We got to an email. I'll reread the email that we already answered on the show. And then I thought I would just share the listener's update, because I thought it was. I'll just read it. So, Jeff and I don't know when we answered this originally, but he had written in saying that he listens to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. Oh, that reminds. I'm glad, glad I'm reading this. His team reached out to me about coming on my show. Do you know Dr. Greger?

Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy. He reached out to you.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. What's crazy, too, is, like, he's been on my list of people to reach out to to try to get on the show. The Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, not the intermittent fasting podcast. So I just need to make a note, because I don't think I heard back from them. Okay. So he says, I listen to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythms. And all of that because of our circadian rhythms, our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight. So I try and my window is eleven to seven. So 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m.. I snack from 11:00 a.m. Kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time. I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Gregor's advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners? So we answered that in an earlier episode and then what I thought was super cool was Jeff wrote in an update because in his original email he was contemplating eating earlier based on this information about circadian rhythm and how we metabolize it better during the day. And then his update he said, melanie, I do agree with your opinion of Dr. Gregor. Now I'm really curious what I said. I did submit that question a few weeks ago and my journey had really only just begun at that point. I've since shifted to a 24 during the week, consuming what is essentially one meal a day. When I get home from work, I snack while preparing supper and I might have an after supper beverage, but that's it. Hunger is not really an issue on weekends. Breakfast is such a ritual that I can't really avoid it. I've been able to delay it a bit and have an eight hour window from ten to six or eleven to seven depending on when I prepare brunch for my kiddos. All that said, eight hour worked short term, but excessive snacking through the day had me shorten it. Big benefit is that I eat no food while out and about during the day. I have way more control waiting until I get home. Ps there is some good analysis of the early versus late debate on the lean gain site. All right, Jeff, so thank you for the update. And what I really, really liked about reading this update is I think it's really telling to show how we can when finding the intermittent fasting pattern that best works for know. On the one hand, we can look at the theories and what people say is best and you should do this or you should do that based on this or know. In this case, with Dr. Gregor talking about eating earlier, and for Jeff, that just doesn't work for like it makes him more hungry. He does more snacking and so he finds for him that a shorter one meal, a daytime window where he's not having that snacking issue and then having the longer window on the weekends when he's having family related things, that that's what works for him and I think a really important takeaway here, and this actually applies to sleep as well, is consistency can really do wonders compared to trying something that you think might be, quote, more perfect and not doing that consistently. So kind of like with sleep, they'll say that there's like an ideal window when you should be getting up, going to bed at this time and getting up at this time. It's been shown pretty evidently that even if you have a non conventional sleep pattern, like maybe you're going to bed later than most people and getting up later, it's more important that you do that and keep it consistent rather than try to force yourself into a different pattern and be inconsistent with it. And so with Jeff, I really love that he found that regardless of what is said about the early eating or not, that this later window works for him. And I think the same could go for any manifestation of intermittent fasting. So I just want to really encourage people when they are trying to find the intermittent fasting pattern that works for them. You have to find what works for you and the thing that helps you with your hunger and if you have inclinations to snack and also the social aspect. So I thought that was a pretty nice update. Do you have thoughts on it? Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with your point on finding what works for you. I think that's a recurring theme that we have on the podcast. Know, there's a lot of studies out there that show different things, but at the end of the day, you have to experiment and figure out what works for you, even if the studies are there to help point us in the right direction or maybe give us ideas on what to test or what might be beneficial for us or understanding the mechanisms and pathways. But yeah, you really have to tinker and figure out what works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, I know we've talked about this before, but if you eat earlier, do you find that it makes you want to snack more, or are you pretty good with closing the window and being done?

Vanessa Spina:
It's the opposite for me, and I've been doing this recently. I'm eating more because I'm in the third trimester of my pregnancy and I'm trying to split up my protein meals. And I don't love it. I feel really full. I don't really want to have dinner. I make myself have dinner anyway, and it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas normally I kind of go through the day more so just feeling really energetic and not feeling the sort of slowdown that you get from all that digestion, and then when I have my main meal, especially dinner, I really enjoy it. Now I'm just like, it's not what I want to be doing, but because of what I know about muscle and protein and what the fact that my body's building another body right now, I have to really stay on top of the protein and eat more meals and eat smaller meals. But I find that the nutrient density, if you eat really nutrient dense, like say a first meal earlier in the day, especially if it's mostly centered around protein, that you will not have blood sugar spikes. And it's when people have blood sugar spikes and then the blood sugar then falls below where it was before. That's when people experience a hunger and fixation on food, which was my experience. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but when I eat, prioritize protein and healthy fats, which I usually always do for my first meal, I usually only have carbs later in the day. Then I am full for hours. I just don't really think about food, and it usually makes me want to eat less.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. For me, once I start eating, I can just keep eating. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And I know that a lot of people have that experience. Like Dr. Sean Baker said that, and a lot of people have said how omed is really beneficial for just. Especially if you prefer that not thinking about food. But for me, I think because I do more protein and fat, it's just so nutrient dense that I get so full and I just don't think about food at all. It's more like, I don't want it. It's more an aversion at that point. Like, no, I don't want any more protein. You know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I wonder if there are different types of people when it comes to your. I'm guessing there are. Especially reading books surrounding addiction and food addiction, like brightline eating or Glenn Livingston's books. I think some people, food, whatever it is, just lights them. Like, that's the way I am. I was always the type that going to buffets and stuff, growing. Like, I would literally eat until I felt like, nauseous. And even then probably want to keep eating. Whereas some people, I think, just don't. I find it so interesting how the brain, how certain things light up people's brains and not other people's brains. I'm just so fascinated by that. So like what you were just saying about eating the protein and fat and being full, literally, I don't have a memory. I think I can confidently say I do not have a memory of eating a meal and feeling full. I have a memory of that, but of feeling full and being like, okay, I don't want any more food. Like, I always want more food. And this is the way I've been my entire life. And that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Because what my body needs is I need to have my one meal a day, and then I need time. Like, I need to go to bed because I need to get in, like, hours for my body to switch over to the fasted state, and then I'm good. But as long as I'm in that, quote, fed state, I want to just keep eating. And like I said, that's the way I've been my entire life. That's why a one meal day in the evening works so well for me.

Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever say, okay, say I put a plate of six chicken breasts in front of you. Do you feel like you would get through, like, maybe two or three, and then be like, I don't want any more of this?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no way.

Vanessa Spina:
Like, you just have six, and then you'd still want to have, like, seven. 8910 and six chicken breasts doesn't even sound like that much to me. That makes my stomach hurt to think.

Melanie Avalon:
Say, 20 chicken breasts. That's a better. So, like, 20 chicken breasts. Yeah, no, I would want to keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you could physically eat 20 chicken breasts.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you'd be surprised.

Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, though, because one of the questions that we have actually is about sleep and protein. And I was just thinking today, as I was on my way back home to meet up with you for this, how we are so different when it comes to that, because one of us likes to go to bed with not a super full stomach, but you actually love to go to bed with this full stomach. So, yeah, it's funny how I think there are definitely different types. I don't know what you'd classify them as, but most people, I got to say, maybe you're a bit of a unicorn. Most people can eat 20 chicken breasts. And that's why I always say the steakhouses give you the steak for free if you can eat the 20oz or whatever, because they know most people just get to a point where their body's like, I can't store these amino acids, so we have to stop. And that's my favorite thing about protein. But I think it was Amy Berger was telling me once, maybe on a podcast, how she also felt that way about protein, that she didn't find it to be that. I know. I'm sure there's probably listeners out there who feel the same way.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is so interesting one. I find it interesting. At those restaurants, normally they make you eat it in the context of, well, I feel like oftentimes you have to eat it with like a side or something, or like the burger ones. You have to eat it with the bun and things like that. When I see those now, I'm like, I could do that. If it was just a steak, it would not even be remotely a problem.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I could too, but I think most people don't win the free steak. But any carnivores, carnivores are high protein eaters. We probably could be fine. We'd probably win it.

Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of ironic. I don't think I've ever engaged in one of those, even in my low carb days. It's kind of interesting, though. This speaks to food addiction and palatability. I know Rob Wolf talks about this a lot. Like in those eating contest things. Oftentimes, Rob always talks about this one show or episode where the guy would be trying to eat all the stuff and be literally sick and couldn't keep going. But then he would. And I think he was eating like ice cream. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
If you switch from savory to sweet, you can keep going.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. He added in fries, and once he added in fries, then he could keep eating the ice cream. Which speaks to just the overwhelming problem with the food system today.

Vanessa Spina:
I was just interviewing him on my podcast yesterday, talking about food system.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we need to get him on this show. I was waiting for them to move. So they've moved and everything now. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And they're like setting up a element compound in Montana there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my going to. I need to email him. I need to email Gregor.

Vanessa Spina:
They can be buddies.

Melanie Avalon:
We can do an episode, have them both did.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we had most of the podcasts. We were like, kind of talking about people who are silly when it comes to nutrition.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? I want to listen to it. When does it come out?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it'll be out in a couple of weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Two of my favorite people together.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. It was funny because we were kind of talking about. He made this really interesting point. It's the last point I'll make on this episode, but he said how we were talking about the health at every size movement, and then there's these different people who kind of sometimes will attack these different protocols and things that we recommend or follow. And the whole point of paleo or paleolithic protocols or keto or intermittent fasting is to help people feel better, right? But it almost gets sometimes twisted around to the point where it's like, oh, you're making people restrict too much and you're creating stress for people. He really feels that a lot. And he says that he's starting to get back on his more. What's the word for it?

Melanie Avalon:
Pro.

Vanessa Spina:
More like, what is it called when you're a big advocate for someone? Zealot? I think he said, I'm getting back on my zealous high horse, or something like that. Because he's like, no, these things that we do. Paleo helps people who have inflammation and who have digestive issues and who are dealing with chronic pain. He's like, this is a solution to help people who are in pain. Why is it being twisted around into something that's harmfully restrictive or stressful or whatever? And I was like, I never thought about that. But the way he phrased it was so perfect. So we spent a lot of the podcast talking about that and just how these protocols, like intermittent fasting and keto and prioritizing protein, it's really to help people who want help. There's a lot of people who need help, who have chronic pain, who have chronic inflammation, who have. I more so work with people who want to improve their body composition, but there's so few people in our society who are actually metabolically healthy. People need these interventions more than ever. So, yeah, we were kind of talking a lot about that on the episode.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that so much. And I know we're talking about because I know he kind of went through a period, I felt, where he felt like maybe he was more focusing on the issue of people being over restrictive. Like, he was kind of like, in that vibe. I'm guessing that's what he means by now, coming out more on the other side. I mean, I know he's always been pro paleo and pro things, but I feel like he goes through times where he's been not over fasting and not overdoing things.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we talked about that, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, nice.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because I know he has a pretty strong opinion on not over fasting. And he said that his last talk that he gave was, like, longevity. Are we trying too hard? But he gets really passionate about the fact that there are these people who are zealously wanting people to not have any restrictions. And restrictions are important, right. If you don't restrict yourself from crossing a busy highway, you're going to die. So why is the term restriction always in this very negative context or negative light. When restrictions can be so helpful, they can literally save our lives.

Melanie Avalon:
Highway lanes are the reason we can drive anywhere. Like, if we didn't have stoplights and if we didn't have lanes like those lines on the road, it would just be. I mean, have you been to Rome? Yeah. I'm sure you. I guess. I guess we would get places. Because my family is forbidden. We cannot go back to Rome. It stressed my mom out so bad.

Vanessa Spina:
The way they drive. Pete loves it. He's like, it's organized chaos.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember one day we just sat at, like, one of those because basically, for listeners who haven't been to Rome, they have basically the equivalent of roundabouts, but there's nothing in the middle. So it's not like a circle. It's just an open circle. And you just drive in and then you just drive out and there's like, no, we literally just sat on the curb and watched the cars. And they're going, like, not slow. I don't know how they do it.

Vanessa Spina:
Your mom would not like Vietnam or Hanoi either.

Melanie Avalon:
They do that there, too.

Vanessa Spina:
There's just a lot of people on, like, mopeds and motorcycles. And it's really hard to cross the street. You have to just wait for a gap, then you cross and you have to run. It's like, frogger.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my gosh. Frogger. Whoa. I forgot about Frogger.

Vanessa Spina:
Pete has this time lapse video of me trying to cross the street, and it looks like. Like it took me like half an hour to get to him on the other side because there was no opening and I thought I was going to.

Melanie Avalon:
Die with the logs.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Don't you jump from log to log. Sorry. I'm, like, stuck on the frogger train now. Yeah. Wait, I want to see this video of you. It's really funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm just like. I go forward, Elaine in the back, and then I'm just like, yeah. He was just laughing so hard and it's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
That's something else that will. Speaking of our discussion about fake time, have you ever, like, especially if you see an aerial shot of a crowd, like a Disney world or something, how people and crowds don't run into each other? That's mind blowing if you think about it.

Vanessa Spina:
It is. Yeah, it really is. I think about that all the time when I'm. Sometimes I'm weaving through a crowd and I'm like, we have these sensors or something around us that give us some kind of indication.

Melanie Avalon:
Think about it. Especially, like, crowds that are really crunched together.

Vanessa Spina:
People rarely collide.

Melanie Avalon:
They don't.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny. I think about that all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy. It's mind blowing because think about how and these crowds can be moving fast. Like, you can have tons of people moving really fast in a tight crowd. Nobody runs into each other how and people are like going around each other. I mean, things to think about. Friends in your 2024? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. I'm actually really excited about next. I'm always excited about next episode, but I'm excited about next episode with the question about protein and sleep because I did a lot of research. So teaser for next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@iofpodcast.com or you can go to iappodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode350 and you can get all the Stuff We Like ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to chat with you on the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise. Happy New year.

Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 25

Episode 349: Injury Healing, Red Light, Full Spectrum Light, Avoiding Food Events, Saying “No” With Confidence, Personal Empowerment, Fasting While Stressed Out, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #224 - Forrest Smith (Kineon Labs)

Welcome to Episode 349 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, 9lus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Chocolate Caramel is now a permanent flavor! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

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Listener Q&A: Joelle - What are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work?

Listener Q&A Mia - How will a fast physiologically affect a physically or emotionally stressed person?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #219 - Dr. Jennifer Guttman

Episode 332: Special Guest Barry Conrad, Allergies, Food Fear, IF & Social Norms, High Protein Diets, Value Alignment & Lifestyle, And More!

Effects Of Fasting On The Physiological And Psychological Responses In Middle Aged Men

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 349 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 349 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, I realized I should be paying more attention to the actual air dates. This episode comes out on Christmas. Really? And isn't Christmas your due date? It is.

Vanessa Spina:
This episode's coming out on Christmas Day?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, Merry Christmas.

Melanie Avalon:
Merry Christmas.

Vanessa Spina:
Merry Christmas to all the listeners.

Melanie Avalon:
And if everything happened according to plan, I hope you're having a nice time delivering your child.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. I'm probably at this point, I'm imagining I'm in the baby Bliss bubble. I like to call it, oh, the baby bliss Bubble.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow.

Vanessa Spina:
There's nothing, I've never experienced anything like it.

Melanie Avalon:
Like the baby bliss Bubble.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. The two, three days that we were in the hospital after Luca arrived, it was just like every moment was like pure bliss. Painful bliss, still physically painful, but you're just like in so much bliss. And a lot of it just comes from the fact, know for nine months and even before that, you're worrying, you're Anticipating, you're preparing, then you have this massive relief mixed with that everything is great and you have your baby. And mixed also with the joy, the joy of actually getting to meet your new baby, like your new child. So, yeah, it's going to be an extra joyful Christmas, I think, for us this year.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's a lot to take in. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really cool that it's coming out on Christmas Day.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. I love Christmas.

Vanessa Spina:
Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
It's such a magical. I think what I love about it, I love that it becomes even more magical. I think as you get older, I mean, it's different magic.

Vanessa Spina:
It is, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
But it's still. Yes. So very magical.

Vanessa Spina:
I love everything about it. I think it's probably my favorite holiday for a while. I was like, is it Thanksgiving? Because it's like Christmas without the gifts, but the gifts. I don't like the forced commercialism of it, but I do like all the traditions. There's just so many at Christmas, and it's longer, and it's just, like, cozy, and it feels like the world kind of stops for a little bit.

Melanie Avalon:
I've been stressing because I realized where my Carol bike is, is where I normally put my Christmas tree. So what are we going to do? There's only so much space in this apartment. Yeah, we're going to have to deal with that first world problems. Can I talk very briefly about something that I'm very excited about?

Vanessa Spina:
Of course.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So we talk a lot on this show about the power of light and red light and near infrared light. And I had really felt like I had optimized those aspects of my life and that I use my red light and neuroinfral light therapy devices and love them. And the light just feels so. It just feels so amazing for my circadian rhythm, my mood, also my skin, my muscle, my inflammation. And I recently did, I haven't aired it, but I did an episode with a company called Kineon Move. They actually make a red light and laser. So it has lasers and LEDs, and it's a modular device that you can strap to your body and you can also take them out and they're like little devices. Actually, I'm using them right now and hold them on different areas of your body. That's a tangent. The point is, the thing I had not optimized was I do use a bright daylight device. Like, what's it called? A sad light is what they call them.

Vanessa Spina:
Me too. I have one also.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And I had it in my head. I was like, I feel like I like this because it's bright in the morning, but I feel like maybe it's not the optimal way to be using it. And I was a little bit suspicious that maybe it actually might not be the best for me as well. Maybe it's too much blue light. I was torn, so I had it on my to do list to look into this. And then so often happens in life, especially for me. I feel like this happens all the I'll have my list of things to get to at some point, and then it'll just come to me. So this fabulous human being, his name is Ken. So he has a company called Soul Shine.

Vanessa Spina:
Such a cute know.

Melanie Avalon:
I know it stands for Science of light. It's the Sol and then shine. And he reached out to me because the devices he makes are full spectrum light. And he talks all about on his website, blood photobiomodulation, because basically the idea is that our blood circulates constantly all throughout our bodies, and the only blood vessels exposed to the outside world are our eyes. And every. This is according to him. I need to fact check this, but according to him, every 2 hours, your entire blood circulation has traveled through your eyes. So by exposing your eyes to the correct type of light, you can actually have an effect on your blood and your body and your physiology. And he calls it. He thinks we're suffering from an epidemic of what he calls malumination, which I think is really cute.

Vanessa Spina:
I love that term. I've heard it before with a red light.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. And he loves red light. He loves near infrared light. He thinks there's a massive gap in the light world and that we're not using full spectrum light as well. And I agree. And it's so true that barely anybody's talking about it. So the devices he makes are full spectrum. They have that brightness of a sateLlite, if you are familiar with those. But they don't have the problems of those because I've talked to this man now, he is a treasure. He's like in his seventy s, and he's doing the perfect company because talking to him, you just light up. He's just so wonderful. And he talks about how normal satellites have way too much blue light, and they actually don't have the full spectrum because they take out the UV light because of the concerns that we have surrounding UV, and then they don't have near infrared light in them. So his devices are full spectrum, they have near infrared light to counteract the otherwise potentially negative effects of the blue light. And they have a very. And I have to get the exact type, but they have a very small amount of one of the UV rays as well. But nothing that would. He said that there's no concerns about cancer or anything like that. I just really love these devices. And he talks about the importance of them for your circadian rhythm, for the effects it has on your blood, for your energy levels, for just so many things. So I've started using it. What's really great is the device can have, it has a full spectrum light mode that runs for 15 minutes, and then it has a near infrared mode that you can run for 15 minutes, or you can run perpetually in the newer devices, which hopefully will be out by the time this podcast airs. Yeah. So you do like one session in the morning of the full spectrum light, and then you can put it on near infrared to counteract the, if you have like an other lighting to kind of bring in that healthy near infrared light. And I'm really excited about this. I'm just excited because like I said, it was something that I've been meaning to look into, and then it just came to me and I'm like, oh, I've been doing it wrong with my satellite, but always something to learn.

Vanessa Spina:
That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've been learning so much about light in the last couple of years, and it's just been so exciting and mind blowing. I love that you just manifested that.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so important. And even yesterday I interviewed, his name is Dan Levitt. He was so great. Historically, he's been a documentary producer for National Geographic and BBC and all these things. But he had his first book out, and it's called what's gotten into you? I think I've talked about it before, but it's all about our atoms from the creation of the universe until now. And even just reading that, like the role of the elements and atoms and light, it literally is energy. And it's so important for so many things. And then especially if you go down like the plant photosynthesis route, all of that to say. So I cannot recommend enough these devices. I use it now every single day. So I do have a coupon code for listeners. You can actually go to their website. So he has two links for it, soulshine.org as well as scienceoflight.org. I'm just going to make one link. You can go to Melanie avalon.com Scienceoflight, and you can use the coupon code, Melanie Avalon to get 10% off of those devices. So I cannot recommend that enough. So again, that's melanieavalon.com Scienceoflight with the coupon code Melanie Avalon for 10% off. And he also has a floor light option and bulbs that you can use as well as that small modular device that I have on my desk. And I am now running it. I'm actually running the near infrared perpetually with my satellite to counteract the blue light from the satellite. And then I do do that full spectrum session in the morning as well. So, yes, I love light, and I know Vanessa loves light because she has her devices.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love learning about the different wavelengths and the importance of natural light on our bodies and how the sun is, like, half, about 50% infrared, which is one of the reasons it feels so good to be in it. But it's so cute, because when we were at the beach with Luca, I was like, we go down to the beach for sunrise, or we still see the sunrise and sunset here at home. And in the morning when we wake up, I'm like, look, Luca, it's red light. It's red light in the morning. AnD I've been learning about how we get the UVa light in the morning and how important the UVa light is for triggering these hormonal cascades and these proteins in our eyes. There's basically so many hormones connected to circadian rhythm, which is why the light is so important. And we just spend so much time indoors. Now, that's one of the biggest things that you've mentioned. Malumination. I love that term. But I also like to think of it as we're red light deficient in this vitamin. It's a nutrient. Light is a nutrient. It's an energy, like you said. But it is so powerful, and we are so connected to it. And we have been throughout all of our history when we lived all day outside, and now we're 90% of the time indoors behind windows that block most of the beneficial, a lot of the beneficial wavelengths, like red light. It's fascinating to me that in Northern Europe, people have cultivated these traditions that we call, like, they do cold plunging in the winter, and they do sauna, like, in Finland and Finnish saunas. It's part of their culture. They don't think of them as biohacks, but they get so much less infrared in the winter that they do this cold plunging to get that infrared in their bodies, and they do the sauna to get the infrared from the sauna. And it's just fascinating how they sort of evolve those things that we've been embracing more and more. But they were just doing that especially because the more north you are, the less light you have. They have periods of the year where there's like an hour of sunlight a day. So it's like they had to evolve these different ways of getting the sun energy, getting that infrared, getting these different wavelengths, and now we can have our own suns inside our homes. That's amazing. In the winter.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Four quick comments. So many things. One, I'm looking at his website he actually calls it light. His tagline is light activated nutrition, which I love. And then, like I said, he does include trace UV light in the full spectrum device, which is definitely not in any of these other devices. I really feel like this is because, like I said, I adore red light, near infrared, and I light up so much of my life with it, I hadn't yet had a device that was able to bring in the actual outdoor light inside, which is what this device does. Like, there's not any other device doing this that I'm aware of. The last little piece. Oh, just. This is not about the full spectrum light. It's about the red and near infrared, especially after interviewing Forrest at Key Neon, which I think I have a code for them as well. It should be Melanie Avalon. I'm holding it right now because it's so small, and I can put it on my face in different areas. Interviewing him was the most mind blowing thing ever about the science of red light and near infrared and how it works in the body. Did you know, for example, that they've done studies where, okay, I don't want to get this wrong. If athletes have injuries, like a local injury on a leg or something like that, it affects their heart, the inflammatory cytokines in the heart, because they travel from the local area, which is crazy. And so by treating locally areas of injury or muscle tension or soreness with red light or near infrared, you have, like, a systemic effect on your whole body's inflammatory profile, which is so, so interesting. And I really noticed it because I've been having some more dental work. My mouth was really on the struggle bus, and I just had to hold this device to my mouth. And you instantly, I mean, I instantly feel a difference from it. It's kind of crazy how quick you can feel the effects.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I love the portable units because you're not plugged into the wall, you don't have to worry about the EMFs, and you can get pretty close. I've had so many experiences of things. I was like, maybe I'll just try the red light on this. I'm like, whoa. I had total pain relief in several different areas, like, things that even one was like an infection, and it went away from the red light. It was just crazy. And it's so amazing. I love the concept that you brought up about the heart, but also cell free mitochondria. So even if you're doing a session on your face or your leg or wherever you're doing it, you're also getting systemic benefits on your whole body, because you have cell free mitochondria and because, as you were saying, your blood is moving through your body. So no matter where you're doing it in a targeted area, you're still getting those amazing systemic effects. So I think that's just so cool.

Melanie Avalon:
It's amazing. And I've been carrying so his ones that are modular. So like I said, it's these three little devices they do for a second pair via Bluetooth, but then the Bluetooth stops. So they're not constantly emitting Bluetooth, but you can strap them to your knee or you can take them out of the strap. And I've been carrying it in my purse. And so now when I'm just out and about, I can hold it to certain areas of my body. You can literally put it right up against your skin. Yes. I'm all about the red light in the near infrared and the full spectrum. So. Sorry. That was a lot about light.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love talking about it. So I'm sure our listeners will find it illuminating.

Melanie Avalon:
Look at you. Enlightening.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
So great. And what is the link for your devices?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, that's sweet of you. I have my own line of red light therapy panels, which are all at Ketogenic Girl, and they're called the tone luxe line of red light therapy panels. And I customized the wavelengths in them based on the research that I found where there was the most beneficial effects. And they're very powerful devices. So I created something that I wanted to use that was like, the most powerful and the lowest EMFs. They're really amazing, but thanks for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. So we will put links to all those things in the show notes. All right. Shall we jump into questions?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to. So the first one comes from Joelle on Facebook, and she asks, what are ways to gracefully decline social food events at work, depending on the person? I don't always like to mention fasting, and I'Ve been looking forward to your answer on this one.

Melanie Avalon:
So something I thought would be fun for this was I have not opened my book. What? When wine and eons. I have a chapter on this.

Vanessa Spina:
No way.

Melanie Avalon:
Of course you did. I do. It's the social guide chapter.

Vanessa Spina:
The Etiquette of Fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. So I was going to in real time, because I don't even remember what I wrote in that. I was going to see what's in here and see if I still agree with what I said. I mean, I'm not going to read, like, the whole chapter. It's like story time.

Vanessa Spina:
A live reading.

Melanie Avalon:
A live reading. Oh, my gosh. So for friends, you can get the full book in hard copy or Kindle or audible, but here is an excerpt from Social guide. I will read the first sentence or sentences I say. You'd think the hardest thing about paleo or intermittent fasting would be the whole not eating certain things things, or just the straight up not eating thing. As it turns out, those things are kind of a breeze. Once you begin eating nourishing whole foods and are falling into the groove of fasting, your hunger levels, hormones, and circadian rhythms sink accordingly. Appetite vanishes in the presence of newfound energy, and the whole eating thing shifts from an obsessive gluttony for food to a pleasurable behavior that nourishes life's activities. So just what is the hardest part about these dietary changes? Other people, or allow me to rephrase. Dealing with your reactions to other people's reactions. Oh, good. I stand by. I stand. Good job, Melanie.

Vanessa Spina:
I stand by that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Because that really is, for me, what it comes down to. Because we make it about the other people. When it's not the other people, it's literally your reactions, and it's not even the other people, it's their reactions to you. So that's just a lot of reactions to reactions that I think we don't even need to be engaging in. There's a lot more information there, but I basically say that something to consider is to identify the reason. So think about why people are reacting the way they are reacting. She's not really talking about having negative reactions from people. She's just talking about gracefully declining. But I think it goes back to this because it goes back to worrying about what people are going to think or say or how they're going to perceive your fasting choices. I talk about how there's, like a range of reasons that people feel the way they do. It can be sincere, so it can be about them caring about your well being, all the way to just pure selfishness. Like, it's actually about their personal insecurities, and they're projecting that onto you. And then I go through different ways to engage. So if people have health concerns, how to engage with them. If people have appearance concerns about you, like losing weight, how to engage with that. If people have more social concerns. I would experience this a lot with my mom, for example. Some people, this is just so far removed from the problem. Some people will be upset about you not engaging in a certain eating behavior because of how they think. It won't even affect them, but how it will affect other people, which is just like so many far levels of being removed. Like my mom used to do this. She would say that she was worried I was going to offend my relatives, for example, if I wasn't eating like the Christmas gathering or something. So the tips that I have one, you can just say no nicely and concisely. This actually goes back to Joelle's question. She's just not going to the events, I'm assuming that are food related. And I want to provide another option, which is Joelle, you can actually still go and just not eat. You don't have to necessarily limit yourself in engaging with other people because of your fasting window. I personally, depending on what it is, will still go. I just do me. And the way I do that is with these different tricks. So for example, saying no nicely and concisely, I say, when you're offered food in your fasting window, you can politely decline with minimal explanation. And I talk about how you may be tempted to carefully spill out a prepared science of fasting lecture, complete with studies and footnotes. But instead it's probably better to use short, sweet phrases like I'm good, thanks because you are good. Or I'm not hungry, thanks because you aren't hungry, or I'll get some in a little bit, which is true. Or I already ate, thanks, I love that one. Because that is true, you did already eat. It was just a while ago. And then I talk about avoiding attention, so you don't need to necessarily draw attention to your eating patterns. So many people, we're so worried about what other people are thinking, when a lot of people are just thinking about what other people are thinking and themselves. So I wouldn't stress so much about, again, what people are thinking. So you don't need to make it like a whole show, you don't have to make it a whole thing. You can just not eat and that can be fine. And then when people do kind of press you a little bit more, I say that it's nice to have a go to explanation. So it could be personal reasoning. So my sample sentence is I do if because it gives me energy, kills my appetite and lets me eat all I want, all while losing weight. Or you can provide a timeline for legitimacy. So you could say, like I've been doing if for a month. Or a short sentence about the science of fat burning. You could say, when fasting the body releases stored body fat for energy supporting metabolism and activity. You could have a short sentence about health benefits you could say studies show that fasting may increase longevity, boost immune function, and prevent many diseases. Or you can say something even more sciency. Sounding like fasting promotes autophagy, which is the recycling of old, broken down proteins in the body. It upregulates neurotransmitters and catecholamines in the body, which creates an alert energetic state. I talk about how it's important to prioritize your health, especially because people can think that fasting is dangerous. So it can be really helpful to emphasize the health benefits of it. You can influence the you. AnD this doesn't really apply because with Joelle it's probably a pre set up event. But if you can weigh in on the plans, put in your vote for things that will align with your eating window or things where it's not even eating involved. So I give alternatives to breakfast, brunch, and lunch. So things like tea or coffee or hiking or beach or the pool or yoga or shopping or manicures or like dinner. Alternatives? Movies, the theater, comedy clubs, bowling, game nights. Escape rooms. Escape rooms. Nice. I didn't know I knew what those were back then. I talk about the role of not becoming defensive. So how becoming argumentative or defensive pretty much will just make things worse. I talk about staying positive, that it's hard to doubt people. If you're genuine and you're literally just glowing with energy and saying that this makes me feel great, I think it's really helpful to speak in the first person. So when you're talking about if with other people, you can focus on how it makes you feel rather than how it can make them feel. So rather than saying it can make you run on fat, you might want to say it makes my body run great on fat. So you want to make it all about how it's working for you. So then people don't feel like you're imposing your lifestyle onto them or insinuating that they need to change. We talk about finding a diet buddy. So if you have a friend that that can help with sticking to your if journey and dealing with these social events. I talk about emphasizing your love of food because people often believe, or may believe that fasting is either disordered or that you're not eating for other reasons. So I like to emphasize how fasting lets me eat all I want because I love eating. I also personally point out that I never fast more than a day because I adore my nightly feast and I can't sleep on an empty stomach. And then I say that sticking it out so the longer you do it and more consistent you are, the sustainability of that will speak for itself. And then the way I end it. So the way I end the chapteR, I say, do you? So I say, appreciating, helping and loving other people does not equate sacrificing your well being for other people. How can we be truly happy if we place our own value only in the opinions of others? Confidence must come from within. Your life is your life, and you are entitled to follow the dietary approach that best suits your health and happiness. You got to do you. So all of that to say, Joelle, as far as gracefully declining. So the first thing I would say is, you actually don't have to decline. You can still go and you can practice all of those tips and tricks and reframing how everything is really just a reaction to other people's reactions, which is far removed from just doing what you want to do and being loving and not stressing about that. If you do want to decline, and she says, depending on the person, she doesn't like to mention fasting, you don't have to give a reason. Oh, okay. Wow. Now I'm going to go on a ever. Okay, this is like light bulb moment. You don't ever have to give a reason for saying no. And actually, this week, and this is going to be way in the past by the time this comes out. But the episode that's airing right now on my show is Dr. Jennifer Gutman. She wrote a book called Beyond Happiness, and it's all about simple, implementable things you can do to, I mean, create a more happy state of being. Although, wait, let me. The caveat to that is it's not about happiness. So happiness isn't the end goal. That's why it's called beyond happiness, basically a life of satisfaction. She actually says that you should actively not give excuses when you decline something or say no. And the reason is you have the right to do whatever you want to do. And if you give excuses every single time, people will be accustomed to that. And so then what happens when you actually don't want to do something just because you don't want to? Like, you don't actually have a reason, then you might feel the need to justify. Whereas if you just get used to saying, sorry, I can't, then you create expectations. And again, not that it's about being driven by other people's reactions, but then you don't create a state of expectations where people are always looking for a reason from you. Of course you can give a reason if you want, but it's just really nice and freeing. And I actually really recommend that book because she goes into a lot. She has, like, a whole chapter and section on this, on how to say no and just let that be enough. So that's actually how I would start with Joelle. I would say, you actually don't have to give any reason. If you do want to give a reason, you don't have to make it related to fasting. You can just say you have a prior commitment, which is true. You have a prior commitment with yourself. So, yes. What are your thoughts? Oh, wait. Last thing. I did talk about this extensively. We had a guest episode with Barry Conrad, who is a fabulous human being, and he's an actor in Australia. He practices intermittent fasting, and it's working. I mean, you can see it was a really nice interview because a lot of our shows are female centric. We don't have as many questions from men, and we do have questions from men, but not as many as the women. And so it was really nice hearing his perspective on intermittent fasting as a man and everything that he's gone through. And he talked about his history with having disordered eating experiences. We talked all about this, about declining social food events if needed. So I highly recommend that. So I'll put a link to that episode in the show notes. I think that was episode 332. That was a lot. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it was absolutely perfect. I love everything that you shared. I think it was extremely helpful. And I think a lot of people would benefit from having those kinds of references to rely on when they're in those situations and they're feeling uncomfortable. I know that people have different degrees of comfort with being, I guess, public about how they're living their lives. And I personally really agree with what your Guest says, which is don't give any excuses, because a lot of times, like you said, people are coming from their self perception, and any comments they make really mostly have to do with them. And that goes for pretty much everything in life. But when it comes to your choices, you have no onus. There's no onus on you to explain yourself, justify your choices to anyone other than yourself, and maybe, like, your spouse, depending on your situation. But it's only you. That's what matters. So whatever you decide to do is up to you. So whenever I'm in those situations, I usually just go with distraction, because I find if you give excuses, it pulls people in more, and then they start asking you more stuff and focusing more on you and if you're already feeling self conscious about it, it can make the situation really uncomfortable where you're just like, I need to exit. Whereas if you just kind of, I would say not ignore it, but you just kind of say like, oh, yeah, I'm just not eating right now. By the way, what is that new book that you were telling me about? And you just turn it back to them, then they'll focus back on themselves. And instead of drawing them in to a longer discussion or having to elaborate more when it really doesn't matter, at the end of the day, it's like what you're choosing to do is up to you. And if you don't want to talk about it, you have the right to not talk about it. So I totally agree with what that guy says. I never give excuses. I just move on to the next. And it's all about how big of a deal you make it as well. And people will sense that from you. If it's not a big deal to you, then they'll just drop it and go on to the next thing. But that's my very basic piece of advice, whereas yours was very elaborate, provided a lot of great tools. So thanks for sharing all of those.

Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. I'm so happy we're on the same page about that. I just think it's so just in life, I think it's so important because, and I think people think it's selfish in some way to not give a reason and just say no. I think people think, oh, that's you just caring about yourself. The way I see it is you don't need to justify anything you do. Like you said, Vanessa, except for, you know, why you're doing it for yourself. And, I mean, I can completely see how if there's somebody you really care about and you feel like they're not understanding why you're doing what you're doing and you want them to understand that. I can totally see explaining to that person why, but I think that's different from feeling, like, to decline something or say no, that it's not okay if you don't provide an excuse, and I just don't subscribe to that. And on the flip side, if somebody says no to me, I don't expect an excuse or an explanation. I want everybody to do what they want to do. And people also, I think it's a healthier atmosphere between people when people really want to be there or really want to be doing that thing. Yes. And of course, some things you just have to do or sometimes you have to say no, and it's something that you actually should do. And so maybe you feel the need to provide. I think there are exceptions to any rule. And I will say the more you go, because again, Joelle is feeling like she needs to decline. The more times you do go to social food events and don't eat, the easier it will get. You'll get the skills, kind of like Vanessa was saying, you'll learn how to engage with people to draw the least amount of attention, and you'll realize, like we both said, that people are probably not paying as much attention as you think they are. And if they are, it's probably something about them which you're not going to be able to address anyways.

Vanessa Spina:
Those are some of my favorite quotes. I saw one the other day. This is something I wish everyone in the world could know is like, no one is really paying that much attention to you. Everyone is really paying attention to themselves and how you're perceiving them. And I wish I could remember the exact quote, but it was like the beginning of freedom is when you realize no one is really thinking about you that much to the extent that we think that they are. And it's so hard to get out of that kind of thinking when you kind of feel like people are really focusing on you and what you're wearing and what you're doing. But it's like, no, I always try to tell Pete this. They're thinking about how you're perceiving what they're wearing and what they're doing. That's how we're all kind of going through life. And I just wish everyone knew that they would feel so much more free.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And like I just said, if they are really focusing on you, it's quite likely something about them, not you. So, yes, empowering people to say no one no at a time and not worry about what people think about you.

Vanessa Spina:
It's a great question, though. I've gotten it so many times over the years. I know that a lot of people deal with that. And like you said at the beginning, it's harder, but after a while, you get really good at navigating those situations. But they can be a big obstacle for a lot of people. Social situations, family situations, work situations, it's a big part of life. And some environments, people just let you do whatever, and others, not so much. So I get it.

Melanie Avalon:
And I will say to that point about the other parts of life, I literally feel a burden was lifted when I made a conscious decision especially with work emails to not feel the need to provide excuses every time. It's so nice to know that you can actually just say no and not provide an explanation.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, and hard to do when you are used to wanting people's approval or caring about that. It's really hard to do. But, yeah, it's very freeing.

Melanie Avalon:
You realize all the energy that went in every single time you were saying no or needed to reschedule the energy that went into creating the excuse and writing it out. And how will this land and is it all okay, that's just all gone when you realize, oh, I can just actually just say no. Yes. And be nice. But that's where emojis come in. Exactly. All the emojis, less words, more emojis, will solve all the world's problemS. Totally.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm with you on that.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. All right. Shall we go on to our next question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
So this question is from MIA, also from Facebook. She says, what are the pros and cons of fasting when the individual is in chronic stress before the fast? How will a fast physiologically affect a physically or emotionally stressed person?

Vanessa Spina:
I love this question. And I think that there is a belief out there that in general that fasting, I'm assuming you're talking about extended water fasting. So beyond 12 hours, like maybe 24 hours and beyond and really not consuming anything other than maybe water.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that she actually, because just from all of the conversations I've had on this show over the years, people are concerned about any sort of intermittent fasting and being in a, quote, chronic stress state.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, so it could also be intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I think so.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you for clarifying that. It really helps. So I think that there is this notion out there, a very well accepted notion by a lot of people, that fasting is a stressor. Like, you hear that term all the time. I'm assuming that's maybe why you're even asking this question, because you've heard that. And the truth is that the research actually is not fully black and white on this, which is really interesting. And it can really depend on the person. And so there's actually evidence on both sides of this. There's a really interesting study that just came out this past August. So, like, quite fresh research. And it was called the Effects Of Fasting On The Physiological And Psychological Responses In Middle Aged Men. So it's not done on women, but it was done on men. And they wanted to track both the mental well being and the physiology in these study, participants who were doing eight days of water only fasting, and they were aged 35 to 60, and they were divided into two groups and they measured their physiological parameters. Psychological data was collected, and they also were measuring a number of different variables. SO their results actually confirmed mostly beneficial things. And I know we're talking about extended water fasting and not necessarily intermittent fasting, but I just wanted to share this one.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we are talking about both.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's brand new.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you're saying this study. Oh, sorry. Okay, sorry. My bad.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, this study is about water only fasting. But I think that some of the information in it is interesting and relevant to this. So the results that they had, they confirmed reductions in body weight, reductions in blood pressure, lower diastolic blood pressure and glucose levels, increase in resting heart rate, increases in cortisol and beta hydroxybutyrate because they were in ketosis. No significant psychological changes were observed under the influence of the fasting. And there were some negative correlations, like between the cortisol levels and some of the psychological factors. But it's really interesting because some of the things that came up were they had incredible mental clarity, a lot of the benefits that people talk about when they're doing extended fasting. And so I think some of it does come down to the perception of fasting, whether it's intermittent fasting or extended fasting. And that is, if you perceive it to be stressful. I think it will definitely be stressful, but some people actually experience quite a bit of the opposite. They experience elevated mood. They experience, like I was saying, mental clarity and cognition, improved energy, and a lot of other physiological benefits, as well as positive mental changes. So there is research, like I was saying, on both sides of this, and I think what is really interesting is that people always expect it to be a negative thing. But there are situations where doing intermittent fasting or extended fasting actually really supports a lot of positive changes. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a black and white answer. In general, I think that if you have been under a lot of stress and you perceive fasting to be stressful in any form, then it's probably not a good idea. If you are someone who especially is new to it and you also perceive it to be a stressful experience, then it won't be a good idea. But I think if you are someone who perceives it to be a beneficial thing, when you fast, you feel better, you feel less stress, then I think that it could be potentially beneficial. So I think it also really depends on the person. It's not just like I was saying, a black and white, like, yes, it's stressful. No, it's not. It depends on the situation. In this study, they found that they didn't really have much changes on the mental well being. So they didn't really have much negative changes, and they didn't really have a ton of super positive changes. It was just kind of more neutral. But again, the study was just done on men. It's just one example. There's a lot of benefits to fasting, and I think that, again, it really comes down to perception. But from your question, it sounds like you have been under a lot of stress recently, and it also sounds like you perceive fasting to be stressful. And so I would think that that's probably going to be a stressful experience for you. And it's hard to say how it will affect different people because some people find it very energizing and empowering and other people don't. But it's definitely something you want to start slowly, build up to it. Don't just jump in the deep end with an eight day water fast or something like that. If it's something that you're new to. One of the things that people initially do when they come to intermittent fasting is they just delay their first meal. If they're used to having it at seven, maybe they delay it by an hour to eight, delay it another couple of hours to nine and see how they feel. But it's not necessarily something that is going to add stress to you. A lot of stress that we have in life is actually hermetic stress. There's like different types of stress. There's you stress, which is positive stress. There's hormesis, which a lot of biohacks provide. A stress that actually ends up with positive benefits. Like exercising your muscles is a stressor on the body, but it makes people feel great to do exercise. So if people go work out or go for a walk outside, it definitely elevates mood, makes them feel better, makes them feel more energized, and it has a lot of cascades of beneficial effects on the body. So I would say some stressors, depending on the state that the person is in, can be beneficial or they can be not so beneficial. And it really, I think, comes down to consulting with your care provider, someone that your physician, to get advice on what you should do. Maybe the time is not right now. If you've just been through a lot of stress, maybe there'll be a time when you feel like it's more of maybe a challenge that you're up for that you are excited to do. But if you've just been through a really stressful period, then it may not be the best thing at that time. So I'd love to know your thoughts.

Melanie Avalon:
Melanie. Okay. I am so excited because I was literally going to say essentially the same thing. So it was really exciting to hear you provide that answer. And thank you for bringing in that study. That was really great. We'll put a link to that in the show notes, and the show notes will be@ifPodcast.com. Episode 349 and I do know recently, I think we did an episode where we talked a lot about cortisol during fasting and the stress response. And I think that would be a good episode to listen to because we talked about the different effects on the stress response in people who are fasting, which can speak to the potential effects that fasting might add to that. But I was going to say that as well about how so much of it, I think, does come down to perception, because I do think putting stressor upon stressor can be a problem for people. Burnout is a real thing. Overabundance of stress is such an issue, and a lot of that does come down to the perception of the stress. It kind of reminds me of Kelly McGonagall's book, the Upside of Stress, which is one of my favorite books. And she talks about how much perception can change the actual physiological response of stress in our bodies. Like, the entire book is about that. And so I think this is essentially what Vanessa said. But if you are in a state of stress, especially chronic stress, physical or emotional? Well, for some, on just a pure physical level, for some people, fasting really, like, they really do well with fasting, and they go into ketosis and they're burning fat and it's anti inflammatory, and their hunger goes away, and it feels really great. Other people haven't quite clicked into fasting with their body, and so they more likely go into a high sympathetic, even glucose creating state where the fasting is just creating more of a stress response and not quite doing exactly what they want it to be doing. And then from the perspective side of things, I really do think, I strongly think that how you view the fasting will affect whether or not it adds stress or not. For some people, fasting is what really actually alleviates their stress in the abundance of stress otherwise in their life. For some people, the fasting is something that brings consistency and lets them not stress about what they're eating, and they do function well in the fasted state, and then they're eating nourishing foods during their eating window. So for some people, it might really, really help them. Like, for me, I think if I was in a really chronically stressed life situation, I think the worst thing I could do would be to stop. Like, I think that would just make it honestly worse for me, and that's just me, and I think we're all different. So, like Vanessa was saying, I think it's important to know where you are and how you respond to fasting and what your perspective is on it. And definitely when you are doing the fasting, definitely focus on in your eating window, getting the nourishing foods to support your body. So making sure you're getting enough protein, whole foods, not imbibing in the toxic, processed foods that we have today, those are not going to help our bodies physically, emotionally, spiritually. I'm really excited that you talked about the role of perspective because I think that's actually really huge. And I think people so often don't even talk about that at all. I feel like the go to answer for this is often yes. If you're too stressed, you probably shouldn't be fasting. That's a very common answer. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
And many of us actually use it as a tool to be less stressed, which is what is. So, I think, key. And I think a lot of listeners probably feel that way. And then there are some listeners who probably feel like the opposite. But I love the point that you brought up, which is also one that I wanted to make, is that when it comes down to stacking stressors, it is so important to come from a well nourished place. I think that's the key. If you're doing intermittent fasting, as you said, make sure that every day you are eating a nutrient dense diet. As nutrient dense as you can make it. Make sure that you are getting all the calories that you need, all the protein that you need. Just don't skimp out on that at all, because that is definitely a stressor. If the body is not well nourished, then doing anything, stacking anything on top of that, whether it's fasting, intermittent fasting, exercise, cold plunging, anything, can just exacerbate that. So if you're well nourished, you're going to nourish yourself either every day or depending on what kind of fasting pattern you're looking at or interested in. I think that's probably the best. Most important message is to do it from a well, nourished place so it won't be so much of a stressor. And I've had a couple of guests talk about this where they were know that they only do it was one guest, Robert Sykes, a ketogenic bodybuilder. I think he just won like this week, he just won his latest bodybuilding show that he was working towards for years. And he did it all, ketogenic, which is amazing. But he was saying that he does consider fasting to be a stressor, but he still does it, but only when he's in a really well nourished place, that he's not overly stressed in other ways when it comes especially to nutrition and nourishment and sleep and all those other aspects of having a feeling good and really taking care of yourself.

Melanie Avalon:
All the things. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get these show notes with links to everything that we talked about and a full transcript@ifpodcast.com. Episode 349 and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. And I think that is all the things. So anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. Love the questions, as always. And wishing everyone a beautiful season, holiday season.

Melanie Avalon:
Because we're in the future. I know. Merry Christmas. Happy holidays, everybody.

Vanessa Spina:
Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon:
See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 18

Episode 348: OMAD, Over Fasting, Extended Fasting, Low Carb Diets, Fat Loss, Autophagy, Protein Sparing Modified Fasting, Thermic Effect of Feeding, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #214 - Ulrich Dempfle (CAROL AI Bike)

Welcome to Episode 348 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of free-range, organic chicken wings for free in every order for a year, plus $20 off your first box!

Listener Q&A: Alani - I’ve been intermittent fasting for 4 1/2 years now....

Listener Q&A: Debbie - What is your CAROL Bike experience so far?

Get $100 off with code MELANIEAVALON At carolbike.com!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #223 - Tony Horton

Listener Q&A: Marina - Pros & Cons of Extended Fasting & Protein Sparing Modified Fasting. Which is better for weight loss?

Listener Q&A: Tara - Fat fasting versus protein sparing modified fasting versus regular fasting. Which is better - especially out of the first two?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #220 - Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

PROTEIN SERIES: Optimize Yourself with Protein: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 348 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 348 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina:
Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I am doing well. How are you?

Melanie Avalon:
I am good. I feel like I want to tell you updates, but they're going to be, we're recording so far in advance that by the time this comes out, they're going to be not relevant. But can I tell you about my Taylor Swift Eris tour concert experience?

Vanessa Spina:
I was just going to ask how it was.

Melanie Avalon:
My goodness, it was an experience. I've never been to a movie in a theater where people are not in their seats.

Vanessa Spina:
I've never been to a concert in a movie theater. I've heard that they've become like, actually people going to the opera and stuff in the theater, so. But seeing Taylor Swift concert in the theater would be crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
It was so magical. It was funny. Afterwards, my sister was like, I thought it was going to be a documentary. And I was like, no, it's just the concert again.

Vanessa Spina:
I thought it was a documentary, too.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's just the concert. Like just round two.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, that's nice because, yeah, for people who didn't get to go, like me, you can see the concert, or who.

Melanie Avalon:
Went and want to go again, like.

Vanessa Spina:
Me, relive it now. You can watch it infinite amount of times.

Melanie Avalon:
It was so great. And the crowd that we went to, because she's doing it only on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday for three weeks to make it like a concert experience. Our crowd. We went to a little bit of an earlier showing, at least for me, a 06:00 and it was all teeny boppers. Like everybody was like age ten to probably 1415 maybe. They looked fabulous. They were all dressed up, they were all with their moms, who were all drunk on wine, which was also fabulous. And then it was like me and my sister, when it started, everybody was sitting down and I was talking to my sister. I was like, people better start dancing. And then four little teeny bopper girls went in the aisles and they were dancing a little bit nervous because nobody else was standing up. But then they got joined by more and eventually there was like ten of them. And then they moved to the front of the movie theater screen and then like ten other girls from our row went in the sides. And I kept telling my sister, so this is like in the first, probably 20 minutes or so, I was like, I'm going to join them. I'm going to join them. Yeah, you are. I kept being like, when I get enough wine in me, I'm going to join them. And my sister was like, when the music calls and I was like, will you come with me? She was like, no. I was like, okay. And then at one point, half of the girls came and sat down again because it was a slow song. And I turned to the little girl beside me and she was like, twelve. And I was like, are you guys going to go back? And she was like, probably. And I was like, okay, well, I'm going with you next time. And she was like, okay. So then the next time they went back, I was like, this is my chance. And I went with them and I was awkwardly in the aisles and then I heard somebody behind me and I turned and it was my sister and she joined me. We just stayed there the whole time. And it was so immersive and so magical, and I highly recommend it to everybody. She's like changing the movie theater experience.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow, another thing, she's changing and leveling up. I was in the shower today and I was like, I think it's because I had her songs on, obviously, but I was like, I still can't believe she made over a billion dollars on that tour. That's just epic, just unbelievable. And she brought so much joy to so many people while doing it and also brought so much prosperity to so many people who were involved, from the truckers to everyone, Soundtech, everyone who was involved in the whole thing. Just what an incredible manifestation that she put out into the world. Just amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so true. It's a huge boom, actually, to the economy. Actually, my sister and I were actually talking about that during the show because we were watching it, and we were like, why do people hate her? And my sister was like, it's literally just because they're jealous because she hasn't done anything to anybody. There's, like, nothing you can say, like, that's awful that she's done. Everything has just been wonderful. So it was really lovely. And there was this beautiful moment of humanity, because when we were in the aisles, there was a little girl, like, hiding behind us. She was probably, like, a younger sister of one of the teeny boppers. And she was really shy and not dancing and looked really awkward. And we tried to get her to dance with us, and I think we just scared her even more. But then at one point, the girls from the front, they came and they got her. They were like, come with us. And they brought her to the front. And then by the end, she was dancing, too. We were like, this is so beautiful. It's like humanity looking out for each other.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so adorable. I'm so glad you had an amazing time.

Melanie Avalon:
I did. And I posted for friends on Instagram my epic outfit, which I'm going to reprise for Halloween because I need to wear it again.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say, have you picked out your HallOween costume?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I was going to be Sleeping Beauty, but now I'm going to be this one again, the Taylor Swift, because this outfit must be worn again since it took, like, 15 hours to make.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, the one that you did. All the sequins that you were. Yes. Okay. Building the oxytocin.

Melanie Avalon:
So many sequins were engaged with. With this outfit.

Vanessa Spina:
That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I can't wait to see what it looks made. Do you have an Amazon storefront?

Vanessa Spina:
No. Oh, yes. It's not that active. I mean, it's got my cookbook, my main book in it. I think that's about all.

Melanie Avalon:
I did not. So I just created one. I should make one for what you just said, like, for my book, the first thing I made was I made a Taylor Swift costume era shopping list. So if people want to make the costume, they can get all the supplies. So I made that at Melanie. Avalon.com Slash Avalon. And by the time this comes out, I will have updated it, hopefully for other things. And by the time this comes out, Vanessa. Oh, my God. So much will have happened. Last episode will be the first episode with Dave on this show.

Vanessa Spina:
Nice.

Melanie Avalon:
Which means that will have already happened. Isn't that crazy?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. We're in the future.

Melanie Avalon:
We are in the future right now. Except not.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, my gosh.

Melanie Avalon:
How are you? How are things with you?

Vanessa Spina:
Good. Yeah. I found our Halloween costumes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, what are you doing?

Vanessa Spina:
I was going through so many different things, and I was spending way too much time on it. That time that I just don't have right now, because as we talked about, I'm nesting. Nesting mode and just organizing everything, getting everything ready for baby. It's like eight weekends. It's really not that long. So then I was like, what would, like, what would Luca be the most excited to wear? And then I'll build it around that. And I was like, fireman. He would love that. He would love to be a fireman because he's obsessed with rescue vehicles, service vehicles. He waves at every ambulance, fire truck. He just gets so it's a typical boy thing, but he gets so excited about. So if he had, like, a little fireman's hat and A fireman's outfit and a fire extinguisher and that kind of thing, he would be so excited. And then if his dad was matching him and his mom, he calls us Dita and Mima. His dita and Mima are matching him. So I got Pete a firefighter outfit, which I think I'm going to like too. Also enjoy just looking at him in it. And then I got one for myself, which is like an outfit that doesn't exist in real life.

Melanie Avalon:
Right?

Vanessa Spina:
It's like a woman's fireman dress. It's basically like the fireman outfit but made into a dress. A cute dress. It's not like.

Melanie Avalon:
I get what you're saying.

Vanessa Spina:
I wouldn't say it's like Koi. It's not like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, it's not like a sexy fireman?

Vanessa Spina:
No. Well, yeah, kind of, but I wouldn't say it's, like, modest. I'm pregnant, so I'm like, the pregnant firefighter. But I was also debating between this cute cheerleading dress with pompoms, and I was like, I could be, like, a pregnant cheerleader, but I was like, is that, like, is that controversial or funny? I don't know. So I'm going to try both on, and I'll let Pete decide.

Melanie Avalon:
I want to see pictures, all of.

Vanessa Spina:
Us being dressed up as firemen, fire people, firewomen. Whatever will be, will be cute. It'll just be so cute to see him in it. And I was just so happy when we decided, because I was like, I know he's going to be into this. I know he's going to want to actually wear it. Unlike the lion, he was know we had to kind of chase him around to put it on him.

Melanie Avalon:
He was not a lion fan.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just like, he was like, only one, and he was just like, I don't want to wear this hat. It's just constricting. Like, he doesn't understand costumes yet. So. Yeah, I just feel really good that I have them all picked out and I ordered them. They're coming this week, so we're going to try them on. And assuming all goes well, we have a Halloween party with a bunch of our friends and their kids. So it'll be really cute to see all the kids dressed up and everyone dressed up. So, yeah, I'm excited for it.

Melanie Avalon:
Do they trick or treat there? I think I asked you that before.

Vanessa Spina:
So they do, but, like, in the expat Neighborhoods. So some of my friends are going to this expat neighborhood.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, what is expat?

Vanessa Spina:
Expat is, like, short for expatriates. So it's Americans, Canadians, like, Westerners who are here. And there are certain neighborhoods where there's lots of expats. Typically there's one here specifically where there's a lot of Americans. Like, if you walk around that neighborhood, all you hear is English. It's like in the city. Right? So they're doing, organizing a big trick or treating thing so you can go there and volunteer and hand candy out and. Yeah, we're not going to it because I don't want to celebrate all the candy and everything, but we'll do the Halloween party. It's a tough holiday for me, weirdly, because when I was a kid, I loved it so much, but all that sugar and candy really affected me in my life, so I also have a lot of mixed feelings about it. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because growing up, it was a little bit controversial because I was raised super Bible belt Christian south, and so it was seen as a little bit satanic. I mean, we still like pagan. I mean, we still trick or treated and all the things, but it wasn't. Yeah, it was not the crowd favorite holiday. Yeah. Now I'm really not about all that candy. So that said, I just love Halloween. I love everything about. I love the costumes, I love the decorations. Starting now through the end of the year is my favorite seasons. I'm so excited. We're, like, in the good times now.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. I've been having yesterday and today. I was thinking about you today because I was like, I bet Melanie doesn't have this, but I'm having almost like a summer. End of summer, like grief. Why is summer?

Melanie Avalon:
I thought you were going to say that. Yeah, I have no idea what that is.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, we were just at the beach, and then we got back and it was sunny for last week, and then now it's just cold. So it's a big shift. I had to pull our winter jackets out today. I'm not ready. I'm just not ready for it. And every year it gets harder. And Pete and I sat on the. We were sitting on the couch on Saturday and we, like, Pinky promised that this is like the last winter that we're doing. Because we were like, I don't know, the darkness. I just miss being outside. All I was tonight, I was like, I think I just have to dress warmer and just make an effort. And we can still be outside a lot of the day, but I miss being outside. I really do. But we kind of distract ourselves with all those holidays. But I guess for you, you don't have the end of summer grieving.

Melanie Avalon:
No. I literally have been dreaming about the upcoming time change. When it gets dark at like five, I'm like, please come now. I just love it. I love it.

Vanessa Spina:
Darkness and the cold.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so great. It's wonderful.

Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever feel like my problem with it is that I didn't.

Melanie Avalon:
Even know what you were going to say.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I've grown to compensate with other things, like red light therapy and sauna when I'm not pregnant. I love that stuff. Cold therapy, even in the winter. I do it mostly in the winter. I've embraced all those things. I think that the seasons changing really has its charms. I think fall has its charms. Christmas has its. Winter has its charms. Especially if you go skiing, which I love. But there's Christmas markets. There's all the holidays you're talking about. So it's not that I don't like them. I do enjoy it, but I don't like being inside all the time. That's the hard part for me. That doesn't bother you?

Melanie Avalon:
It doesn't change? No, that does not bother me. It does not change at all. My amount of hours spent in the outdoors. There is no difference.

Vanessa Spina:
Does that mean you spend a lot of time outside?

Melanie Avalon:
No. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Because in the summer, like, where you live, it's hot outside, right?

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm definitely not outside. So I'm probably outside more. Yeah, I'm probably outside more in the cold.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so funny and ironic. I like, the cold. I like it. I don't like when it's, like, dark and cold. It just feels sad and, like, gloomy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, it feels dark and romantic.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, I have to reframe. Reframe it to romantic.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like the best lighting.

Vanessa Spina:
AnD good lighting it is.

Melanie Avalon:
It's such good lighting.

Vanessa Spina:
I think. I was thinking of reflecting on this a lot today. I think part of it is because now we have a two year old, I think it makes me long for the summer even more because you're outside with them all day doing stuff. So in the winter, it just becomes more challenging because you're like, I want to go to the playground, but it's freezing and we have to put on all these layers, and I don't want to do it. Whereas when it's warm out, at least it's easy to do. So. I think having a kid does change it.

Melanie Avalon:
Another reason for me not to have a child.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I mind it as much before.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, but the lighting, actually, one of the things, if I am ever going on dates and stuff, I'm like, I love that when the time change happens, because then I can go on slightly earlier dates because the lighting will be more favorable earlier.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, what do you mean by this lighting? Like, are you talking about selfie lighting? Are you talking about just lighting in general?

Melanie Avalon:
Talking about? Yes. Like, the harsh overhead lighting of the day just is not as flattering to me as the evening lighting.

Vanessa Spina:
I get that. Like, in photos.

Melanie Avalon:
Especially. Or like, if you're inside in a restaurant or a bar with windows, you can get weird side angle lighting that's just not flattering. But when it's dark outside, then you've only got the lighting of the restaurant, which is generally, usually more flattering, especially if you're going to a nice place. But those windows, man, that side lighting, then you have to worry about where you're sitting. I just can't. It's too much.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever thought. But I love that you have thought about it. Oh, have I? Now I'm going to be thinking about it more.

Melanie Avalon:
That's why you got to get there early, before your date, so that you can scope out the seat that will have the best lighting. And it's important that your first moment being seen is from far away.

Vanessa Spina:
Really?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. There's a lot that goes into this.

Vanessa Spina:
I would think that when Pete and met, it was from far away the first time, not super far. Like, we were at a reception and he walked in with his friend. And he made some comment about how he thought I was really attractive. Maybe we were like, 20ft away.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
Does that qualify? Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
No, that's perfect. That's perfect. Yes. There's nothing better when you're first meeting a potential romantic person than having that far off first look. It's everything.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so funny. Yeah. I'm thinking about my other serious relationship before Pete. I saw him far away. We saw each other from far away at a club.

Melanie Avalon:
See? It's everything.

Vanessa Spina:
But I didn't see. Petey saw me. And then he came up close.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, you didn't see. Wait, wait.

Vanessa Spina:
What?

Melanie Avalon:
You didn't see Pete?

Vanessa Spina:
And then he walked in and saw me. And then him and his friend came up and introduced themselves to me. So I only saw him the first time up close.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that does put a wrench in my theory. But we need more data points. I love it. Well, on that note, now that listeners have learned so much about how to perfectly organize their first.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Good tips. I know these are important tips. We should write a book.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. About lighting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
About tips for life.

Melanie Avalon:
Shall we go into some questions? Okay, so we have a kind of all over the place interesting question here from Elena, and this is from Facebook. And she says, I've been intermittent fasting for four and a half years now. I like it as a lifestyle, to lose a few pounds around the middle and to stay healthy. I am 48 years old, female, and on HRT estradiol patch and 200 milligrams progesterone pill. At night. I'm 55 and I weigh 135 pounds. I'm an omnivore, and I eat lots of protein and I'm low on the carbs. I eat everything organic and grass fed. I mix up my fasting and eating window. I can fast easily to 19 hours, but after that, I get major tension in my shoulder that goes up to my neck and up to my head. It gets unbearable. And then I need to eat. Once I eat, that, tension goes away. I've tried electrolytes in my water throughout the day as I'm fasting and eating more protein the night before. I take your awesome magnesium eight in the daytime for headaches usually, and that works, but not in this particular situation. I'm following everything you and Jen and Cynthia and Vanessa have said on your awesome podcasts. I've listened to all of your episodes. Is this stress on my body that's telling me to eat? I'm not hungry at all at this time. What is going on with my body. I also, at this time, feel very energetic but in a negative way, like jittery. I've tested my glucose and it's in the high seventy s and low 80s. I've heard about fasting energy, but I can't do anything with this energy because I can't focus. Do I just not like being in ketosis for an experiment? I've made myself wait till 23 or 24 hours and then I've eaten two hard boiled eggs and one cup of bone broth, then gone to sleep and made it to 41 hours. And she said, last week I tried eating just protein steak, two hard boiled eggs and chicken, went to bed and then made it to 48 hours. But I can't get rid of that weird tension that happens after 19 hours. What is going on with my body? Thank you ahead of time for your help.

Vanessa Spina:
I have some thoughts. I would say I'm a big fan of really paying attention to feedback from your body and being really in tune with how you feel when you're doing things. And the tension in the neck, which sounds very painful. It doesn't sound like good feedback or positive feedback from your body with this approach. The other thing that's really standing out for me is you sound like you are at a great, healthy weight. So I'm not sure what the goal is with doing Omad. Like, if you are 48, it sounds like you're doing, as you said, HRT. Then it's hard to say without knowing explicitly what your goals are. But I'm imagining that you want to have a great body composition because you're doing HRT, you're eating lots of protein, and you're really focusing on informing yourself on all the ways that this is beneficial for your body composition. So I'm not sure why you're fasting. I'm not sure why you're doing Omad. And it does sound potentially like too much stress. It sounds like you're at a great weight after the age of 40. Usually we really depend on other signals outside from the hormonal ones to make sure that we can have amazing body composition, build more muscle, maintain the muscle that we have, and also have strong bones. And because you're on HRT, that's going to give you a bit of a boost. But your body is really going to be dependent on the protein feedings and on resistance training. So I'm not sure if you are doing that or not. I didn't see that in your question, but I don't see what would be bad potentially about doing two meals a day, waking up in the morning, having a prioritized protein breakfast, seeing how you feel throughout the day, if you want to have a small protein meal or a light lunch in between that or not, and having dinner. I'm not sure what the motivation is for doing the Omad, especially when you're getting this kind of feedback. It sounds like pain, like considerable pain and tension in your neck, and also this jittery feeling. So to me, that's all feedback, saying that this pattern may not be optimal for you. And so I would definitely look into adjusting it. Trying to do a different approach with your meal timing and spacing, and sounds like you, like I said, are at a healthy weight. Maybe you're just wanting to optimize your body composition, stay as strong or get as strong as possible. And so what would be more optimal for that, in my opinion, would be to have at least two protein meals a day, whether that's breakfast and dinner or lunch and dinner. And that's just my initial thoughts on it. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
I thought those were really great thoughts. I was actually thinking that similarly, especially in the beginning when she was talking about, and again, of course, we don't know her actual body composition, but based on her weight and, you know, in a normal BMI, and I like what you said about focusing on the protein and the body composition and how she doesn't have to be doing the one meal a day thing. My thoughts on the feeling that she gets in her neck and shoulder. Okay, first of all, I will preface this by saying, I have no idea. These are just my random thoughts. I have two thoughts of what it might be. One, some people do report when they fast, that when they get farther into a fast, although I feel like this happens more with longer fasts, but that areas where they have damage or I don't know what the correct word would be. Areas, problematic areas, especially muscle related, that those will start flaring up when they get into a fast because of the body going into a sort of repair mode. I don't know if that's what that is. I've just heard that people have experienced that. What it feels like, maybe even more. It sounds like your body's going into, since you feel very energetic, not hungry, but it's like a negative jittery energy. It sounds like you're going into the sympathetic dominant state. So basically a high cortisol response to the fasting I was expecting. When you said that you tested your glucose, I actually thought it was going to be high because that would also be indicative of going into that state, and it's not. It's in the low eighty s. I would actually be really curious if you were a laney to wear a CGM, how those blood sugar levels compare to the rest of the day. I'd be really curious about that. But it does really sound like an increase in the sympathetic nervous system, and that definitely can lead to muscle tension and muscle spasms. And the fact that you eat and it goes away feels like it's shifting you back into the parasympathetic mode and mitigating that. So that would be my thought. It sounds like what you're doing, the fasting approach you're doing right now probably is not, like Vanessa was saying, might not be the best fasting approach suited to so. And like Vanessa also said, I don't think you need to feel this dire, need to have to do this longer fast. I really don't, especially even the terminology she uses. So she went 23 or 24 hours, had two hard boiled eggs and a cup of brown broth, went to sleep, and then made it to 41 hours.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I definitely get that as well from the terminology and just the tone that there's maybe a thought that you need to fast for as long as possible. And I do think that there's a place for extended fasting, but it would be without any food at all. That's like water fasting. Extended water fasting done for the purpose of deep autophagy, immune reset, cellular renewal, mitophagy, et cetera. But, yeah, I wouldn't push it. There's really nothing wrong with changing up your approach, especially if you're feeling uncomfortable. And I just think it's great that you're listening to the feedback from your body, you're observing it, but it sounds like it's not the most suited, the best suited for you. So I wish I knew more about what your goals were with it, because then I feel like I could give you better feedback on what to do. But I'm just going to assume that you want to have great body composition if you listen to the three of our podcasts and you've been upping your protein and all of that. So, yeah, let us know. I would love to know how it goes if you decide to change it up and see if you get even better results.

Melanie Avalon:
And also, one final thought, something you could also try. If, for whatever reason, you do want to do these one meal a day approaches, you could try having more carbs and protein and seeing what happens and see if that has an effect. It might be that the fasting plus the low carb is just too much stress and you need more carbs. So that would be something to experiment with as well.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Shall we go on to our next question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, the next question is from Debbie and comes to us on Facebook. What is your Carol bike experience so far?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So I haven't updated about this in a while, but I am still loving my Carol bike. I actually did have an interview with the founder on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking podcast, so I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But basically, it continues to be just the best way to easily integrate physical activity into my daily life and get the maximum benefit when it comes to cardiovascular benefits in particular, like cholesterol mitigating benefits, longevity benefits. And basically what Carol is, is it is a bike that uses AI to adjust the resistance in the actual bike. And then you do a track that is like a hit workout, a high intensity interval training, but it's called re hit, which is the most optimized form of that for minimal amount of time. So the track I've landed on, which is their main track, is just 220 2nd bursts. That's it. Which is crazy. And then there's like a warm up, an in between and a cool down. And you don't even have to do the warm up. I learned. I thought you did, but when I interviewed the founder, I realized you can just start all out sprinting and start with the sprint if you want. So it can actually literally be six minutes and you can do it. They recommend doing it three times a week, although you can do it more. And it's just seriously the easiest thing. And then I've talked about this before, but the track that you can use, it treats you like you're a hunter gatherer, and it talks you through when you're in the slow part of it. It treats you like you're walking in the woods and finding food for your family and all this stuff. And then you see, like a tiger, and then it screams at you and yells at you, and the screen goes bright red and it's like, run faster. It's like your family needs you. And then you're like, running. And it is just the best. When I did it, I actually saw a big change in my HBA one C, and it's hard to know if it was just the bike or other lifestyle factors, but I did see drops in my cholesterol panel and changes in my HBA One C, so I am loving it. You can get it@carolbike.com. And the coupon code, Melanie Avalon, will get you $100 off. Especially for people who are not gym type goers such as myself. This is just, like, my new favorite thing. Oh, which, speaking of, Vanessa, do you know who I'm interviewing tomorrow? Who? Did you ever do P 90 X growing up?

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely saw it, and it was big.

Melanie Avalon:
We definitely had those DVDs. So I'm interviewing Tony Horton, who's, like a legend in the workout world. And he looks. Man, he is doing something right. I looked him up. He's 65, and he looks. I mean, I was watching a podcast of him recently prepping. He literally looks like he's in his 40s. It's inspiring. Mark Sisson also looks amazing. Do you know he's 70?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think I saw his post where he was like, I can't believe I'm 70.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you seen him? Have you met him in person?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I haven't. You are more, always more in the paleo side of things, whereas I kind of skipped paleo. I went right to Keto. But over the years, I've gotten to know more and more people from the Paleo side, usually because they come to Keto, but, yeah, I don't follow as many of the Paleo people I know that you.

Melanie Avalon:
They're. They look great.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Exercise, Whole foods. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I wish you were in the US and we could get you a Carol bike as well. I think you would like it.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I definitely want to get one from hearing all the updates and just how efficient it is, because I don't have time to do much exercise right now, and I'm going to have even less time coming up. So for me, I'm all about the micro workouts or the biohacks. I literally need all the hacks. I need the hacks because I just don't have the luxury of time right now. So it sounds like you can get a pretty efficient workout done.

Melanie Avalon:
Not only that, it's better than the majority of the workouts you would be doing for cardiovascular health, which cardiovascular disease is the number one leading cause of mortality. And, oh, you also wear a heart rate strap, so it's measuring your heart rate and making adjustments. Yes, it's definitely the optimal, efficient way to, quote, hack the exercise side of things. So highly recommend. Shall we go on to our next question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon:
All right, so this is also from Facebook, and it comes from Marina, and she wants to know the pros and cons of extended fasting and protein sparing, modified fasting between the two, which is better for weight loss. And then we actually also had another question from Tara, and it's similar. So I will read both of them. She says fat fasting versus protein sparing, modified fasting versus irregular fasting, which is better? But she wants to know, especially out of the first two. Okay, so all the options we have here, we have extended fasting, protein sparing, modified fasting, fat fasting, regular fasting. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. I want to answer them separately in a way, because the first one, I know what the goal is, the target is weight loss. But the second one, it just says which is better from the question from Tara. So I'm not sure for what, but I'll explain what I think each one is optimal for. So extended fasting, I only recommend for doing autophagy for deep autophagy because really that deep autophagy, although you can get autophagy from lots of different things like including exercise, and it's not just fasting, but extended fasting, is one of the evidence based ways that you can really deepen autophagy, especially when you get to the 36 hours plus mark, you get that immune reset, the cellular renewal. My skin always feels as soft as Lucas after, which is crazy. Like I can't stop touching my face because of all of the cellular cleansing and renewal that happens in the dermis and the skin. And there's so many benefits for longevity and antiaging. So I personally have practiced doing seasonal fasts for between three to five days. I usually get to four or five days on most of them annually, which ends up being three to four times a year. And that is just for the purpose of autophagy. There's a little bit of weight loss that usually comes with it, but it's for such a short period of time that it's not really tangible weight loss that you can maintain well. And that's one of the keys when it comes to quality weight loss or fat loss, where you're just losing mostly fat and you're preserving or maintaining your lean mass. I think that is one of the main priorities when it comes to it. And so I much prefer protein sparing modified fasting for that. If I have to choose between the two, neither of these is my top for fat loss. But choosing between the two, I would say protein spraying modified fasting is a dominant option to extended fasting. The main reason is the lean body mass loss can be higher during extended fasting, and a big part of having successful fat loss is the maintenance. So you want to do something that is going to help you to not only protect as much of your lean mass as possible, but also maintain the results. Whereas with fasting, what I see when people do that for fat loss is they usually gain back a lot of what they lose, and they also lose a lot of muscle doing it when they're doing extended fasting for weight loss. So I definitely prefer protein sharing, modified fasting. That's really the whole point of it. When I went back and went through all the obesity research to study the origins of protein sparing modified fast, and the two doctors who initially came up with it, one of them was George Blackburn. They came up with it as a way to help spare and protect lean body mass when people were in extended bedrest. And so they wanted to make sure that people would be able to not lose as much muscle as possible when they were basically in an extended catabolic state. So that's the whole point behind it, is to just lose pure fat, where most of what you're eating is protein, so your body has no choice but to go to your fat stores. And in terms of the protocols of people doing protein spraying modified fasting on a daily basis, I think that's always recommended in the obesity research for either obese or morbidly obese. So being over, I believe for women, it's over 34% body fat is obese and then morbidly obese. I'm not sure what exactly the percentage is for that, but typically doing that every day is recommended for those scenarios and with doctor supervision. But there are people more and more now who are using it to break through fat loss stalls. Weight loss stalls by adding in one to two days a week of a protein spraying modified fast day. And that would be. We've talked about it many times on other episodes, but it's usually around, averages around 800 calories. It's mostly lean protein and a little bit of carb, a minimal amount of fat. And it's just two days out of the week where you're eating at a regular caloric deficit on the other days during a fat loss phase. So that's the first question. Do you have anything to add on that before we go to the next one? Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
I feel the exact same way. I do think, and I know we've talked about this on recent episodes, and we've talked about this a lot throughout the show, which, by the way, if you go to iFPodcast.com and you use the search bar, you can search through to find other episodes where we've talked about things. All of the episodes actually have transcripts. So that search will actually find, really, anywhere that we've talked about things before. I agree as well for fast, rapid quote, fat loss, protein sparing, modified fasting, I think is the smartest way to go to. And this is just saying what Vanessa said, but basically to preserve muscle while really giving your body nothing else to burn except fat, which is the reason that it can be so effective. And agreed as well about extended fasting. I would not use that for weight loss, especially for people who. Especially for people who are normal weight, and I probably wouldn't even for people who are overweight, because I think that they can get the benefits while not engaging in that. However, there are some people, especially with the supervision of a doctor, where that might be a way to launch everything. But in general, I would not really go that route. And I know Vanessa and I both did. You already air your episode with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. I mean, I know by the time this comes out, you will have.

Vanessa Spina:
It came out yesterday, actually. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
That's what I thought. I thought I saw it. So I know talking with her especially, and reading her book Forever Strong, which I highly, highly recommend, it'll really make you become aware of the importance of preserving muscle. It is just so important. So, yeah, I would prioritize that in your weight loss approach, for sure, and especially you mentioned it, but the effects of just being sedentary or bed rest and how fast you lose muscle is crazy. And we know that people on extended fasting tend to move less, like, they tend to become more sedentary in their movement, their daily movement.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and then we didn't even really talk about the metabolic slowdown that can happen from being in that mode. So you have less non exercise activity, thermogenesis, which is a big part of your overall resting metabolic rate, than neat. But then you also are potentially losing that super valuable metabolically active tissue, which is the lean mass, which will give you a higher metabolic rate. And then lastly, with a protein sparing modified fast, you're eating protein, which also has that 20% to 30% thermic effect, where 20% to 30% of the calories consumed as protein are burned off just in consuming it. So it's like a triple whammy. And most people don't feel that hungry when they do those days. So definitely a much bigger fan of the latter than the former.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and just a comment really quickly on the thermic effect of food. One of the questions I got really excited about with Gabrielle, because it was something I've been wondering for so long and I was excited that she actually had thought about it prior to me asking her. I asked her because she talks in her book about how the thermic effect of protein, how protein can be used structurally. That's its main quote. Purpose is the amino acids are being used structurally in the body, but then it can also be used, turned into glucose. Yeah, I guess those are the two ways that it would go. Or it can be, I guess, just kind of wasted. But I asked her, is the thermic effect different in the beginning, like when it's being used structurally compared to at the end, compared to when you've already met your cap for structural needs and you're going more turning it into glucose or just wasting it? Was the thermic effect different? And she said she thinks it is. She thinks the thermic effect becomes more when you surpass your needs. Does that make sense?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not sure. I thought it was mostly coming from the high ATP energy needs of muscle protein synthesis. So wouldn't that be the first part?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, that would be the first part, although I guess. Do you know what the energetic conversion requirements of converting protein into glucose or just wasting it?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I don't know compared with wasting it, but I know, like Dr. Don Layman has said, that in some of the rodent studies they did, that eating a high protein meal was equivalent energetically to going for an hour long run in the rodents. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Was that hypochloric or like an isochloric or a hyperchloric?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know. I didn't ask him about the details of it, but that's just something that we've talked about a few times. But we know it's between 20% to 30% of the protein that you consume.

Melanie Avalon:
So actually, I pulled up the transcript and so Gabrielle said, so basically what I asked her, I said, I'm curious because you talk in the book about how the amino acids from when we eat a meal, they're used structurally, but they can also be used as fuel. Oh, yeah, she does talk about that, how they can be used as fuel, and then they can also be converted into essentially glucose. Do you know if the thermic effect of protein differs based on how you're using those amino acids? And she says it does. She says that's why you see variations in the literature from 15 to potentially 20% of this thermic effect of food. So if you're eating 100 grams of just pure protein, your body might recognize 80 calories of protein. Or if you're eating 100 calories of protein if you're eating it all in a particular meal threshold. Again, this is my thoughts as well as Dawn's shout out to who Vanessa was just talking about that it's that muscle protein synthesis response that generates the variations in thermic effective feedinG. So if it's lower, maybe you're influencing the thermic effective feeding at 15%. But when you're hitting this threshold and challenging the machinery, that is what makes a difference. And then I clarified, I said, is that the thermic effect ramps up when you're going past the limit. And she said, yes.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so that's for sure. Like, if you hit 2.5 grams of leucine in your blood, then you will exceed that leucine threshold in the blood. And that's when muscle protein synthesis is triggered. And that's when you would have that high energetic demand for ATP to go then and synthesize the muscle. But if you don't hit 2.5, like if you are only eating 20 grams of protein at all your meals instead of 30, you're not hitting that threshold. So you still get a thermic effect, but it's just not as robust because you're not actually triggering muscle protein synthesis.

Melanie Avalon:
So is the takeaway still that the more you. Are you saying the more protein you eat, the higher the thermic effect regardless?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. But you were saying about the time, whether it would be higher later versus higher. Did you mean it would be higher with more protein?

Melanie Avalon:
Right, the timeline, because you have to hit a threshold.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, yeah. I was confused because I thought you were saying once you. It has more to do with the duration. But I guess the duration applies to the fact that you would have consumed more protein. Yes. And I could see why you would ask that question specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah. The timeline was purely. It's like looking at a timeline that only is growing based on eating more.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's why I understand in that context what you mean. But if someone is continuing to eat protein, but if they eat protein and then they stop, but they've only had 20 grams, then in that sense they would never hit the leucine threshold. So the thermic effect would always be the same. It wouldn't increase even though more time has passed.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah, mine had nothing to do with time at all, just eating more.

Vanessa Spina:
But you mean. Yeah, eating more in that time, like.

Melanie Avalon:
Later in the meal. I'm not sure what I said, but later in the meal because you're eating continually.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
More protein. Okay. I used to think about this when I went on a super high protein diet, and I was basically doing PSMF, but not calorie restricted. I would just eat protein and more and more and more. And I was so curious about the fate and the thermic effect of that protein after eating massive amounts.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think that the confusion comes down to the different ways that we eat. Like, you eat over an extended period of time. I like with my protein meals, they're pretty brief. So for me, longer time is like, it doesn't change the amount, but for you, longer time does.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Although. Yeah, I literally, though, just meant it based on eating more. I didn't mean it about time.

Vanessa Spina:
No, that's super fascinated. I'm glad you asked her that.

Melanie Avalon:
So, all the rabbit holes. What about fat fasting?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Okay. So, again, it's hard for me to answer this without the goal. If you're asking which is better for fat loss, clearly protein spraying, modified fasting, would be much more beneficial than either fat fasting or regular fasting. If you're asking which is better for deep ketosis, then fat fasting would be better than protein spraying modified fast, and even regular fasting would be even more so than that, because you're not triggering any insulin at all, although the insulin amount is minimal with fat. So if the goal is like, medical ketosis or getting into deep ketogenesis, then I would say, like, regular fasting, assuming that's water only fasting, then fat fasting, and then protein spraying, modified fast. So it really comes down to the goal, because I'm not really a fan of the way that most people do fat fasting. And I think it sometimes is recommended to people for fat loss because it lowers insulin. But the best way to really lower fasting insulin or basal insulin, which is like most of our insulin need, is by losing fat in the fat cells. And so that would be through fat loss, which would be optimized through protein spraying modified fast out of those three, because, again, with the fat fasting and the regular fasting, there is the risk of lean body mass loss. So it really comes down to the goal.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I don't think we defined what fat fasting is. It's basically, while people do it different ways, but it's basically eating just fat. People will do it with butter. Some people will do it with not completely fat food. Like, they'll do it sometimes with macadamia nuts, which are very high fat. They might do it with, I mean, really, anything that's some people will even do it with, like, avocados and stuff. So they don't necessarily do it completely fat.

Vanessa Spina:
I've only seen it with just pure fat, like fat and coffee fat and bone broth.

Melanie Avalon:
Maybe this was from my low carb Atkins days. I would be in the forums. Back in the forum days, there are a lot of manifestations of people doing fat fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow, that's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I did it once and I did it with macadamia nuts, and that was miserable.

Vanessa Spina:
I bet it would be, because those.

Melanie Avalon:
Just make you hungry. I mean, for me, those just made me hungrier.

Vanessa Spina:
I think all nuts have an appetite stimulating effect because they have carb and fat. It's the same with avocados. It's like, high carb, high fat.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So some people would do it. People would give it really vague percentages, like, oh, if you're, like, 90% fat. But then some people do it more by the book, like just butter or things like that. Yeah, I did it with cream cheese. I did it with cream cheese. That's what I did it with as well. I tried that.

Vanessa Spina:
Is there any protein in that, or is it pure fat?

Melanie Avalon:
There might be, like, a gram. There is a tiny bit of carbs, but it's primarily fat. Oh, I can taste it now. It's coming back to me. I love cream cheese. And I would, like, mix it with. This was also in my pre paleo days. I would mix it with erythritol, and it would literally taste like icing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Or cheesecake. I've definitely had variations of that when I was doing, like, Atkins style, the Induction, or whatever, which is pretty similar to Keto. Yeah, it was very tasty. But the most recent time I did it was when I first started Keto, and I actually gained a ton of weight from doing it. Like, I put on 20 pounds, and that was, like, my first experience with Keto is I was like, I just have to get really high ketones. I was following the advice of some people who were not really putting out the best advice, which I've since learned. And I was getting these ketones of, like, 4.86.0. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm killing it. My insulin must be so low. I must just be, like, torching the fat. And I was like, I think my dryer is shrinking my. Like, I seriously thought that. I seriously thought that. And Pete and I went to Vegas, to Las Vegas for holiday, the two of us. It was just like a weekend thing, and we asked someone to take a picture of us in the same place that we had had this cute picture of us taken a year ago. And I saw the photo and I was like, oh, my gosh, I've gained 20 pounds. And that was how I realized, because I was, like, in denial or something before that, I seriously thought my dryer was shrinking my clothes. I was like, why are my clothes suddenly all tighter? And then I was like, I better weigh myself. I was like, oh, no, I gained 20 pounds and it was all the cream cheese and just eating all the high fat dairy, because I was very misinformed and I thought, all I have to do, it was kind of like fat fasting. All I have to do is get my insulin down and get in deep ketosis, get those high ketones, and I'm going to lose all the fat. And that's really not how it works. I learned, but having done it, I understand people who make the same mistake, and it's really not the best for fat loss.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember existing in that mindset where I was like, I'm in ketosis. All this fat that I eat, my body's not going to store it. I don't know what I thought it was going to do with it. It's just going to burn it, excrete it, which is just. I honestly think that's one of the biggest, because I love the Low carb keto movement. I do think that's one of the biggest misconceptions and disservices done to people in their fat loss journeys.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you interview Craig Emmerich yet?

Melanie Avalon:
I did.

Vanessa Spina:
So. I interviewed him when we were in Greece. Was like, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, and that's all we talked about, was, like, all the bad information that's being recommended to people on exactly this.

Melanie Avalon:
Yep, quite an issue.

Vanessa Spina:
And he really explains so well the differences between the basal insulin. That's what I found the most fascinating from our conversation, was that most of your insulin needs are coming from the basal insulin, just to keep energy stored away. And those post meal spikes are like 10% if you're doing low carb. But, yeah, it was really fascinating.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, Gary Tobbs talks about that as well. Like, basically, he thinks you have an insulin threshold. And that's exactly what I brought up.

Vanessa Spina:
With Craig, because I posted one of the charts he has in his book that shows that if you have a basal insulin of 25 and above that, typically you have a really hard time losing weight. And this was a study done in lean college students, and as soon as you go under 25 it's much easier to lose weight and have a high metabolic health. But yeah, I brought up exactly him and his book and that study when we were talking.

Melanie Avalon:
I forgot. Did you interview Gary?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I interviewed him when he put out the case for Keto.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Same.

Vanessa Spina:
And I love that study. It was really fascinating. And I think it does bring up the importance of getting that fasting insulin down, of getting that basal insulin down, because so much more of the insulin demand on the body is from that basal insulin and not from the post meal spikes or the exercise spikes, which people think their insulin is spiking when they exercise, but it's not. Insulin is actually going lower, but to let glucose out anyway. Probably digressing here.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I think it's fascinating. Well, lots of fasting fun on the intermittent Fasting podcast. If you would like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com. Or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get these show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode348. They will have a full transcript and links to everything that we talked about, and you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. All righty. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I loved all the questions. I feel like we got to more of them than usual, so I'm pretty happy.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I was like, we're speeding along. We're just all the people loved it. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely fabulous, and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Talk to you next week. Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team administration by Sharon Merriman. Editing by podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon:
See you next week.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Dec 11

Episode 347: Special Guest: Vince Ojeda, Gut Health, Food Sensitivities, Food Allergies, Dysbiosis, Fasting Mimicking, Elimination Protocols, IgG, IgE, IgE4, IgM, CD3, Food Antigens, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 347 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

TONE DEVICE: Introducing the brand new second generation tone device! If you practice regular IF, TRE, prolonged fasting and or low carb/keto, your body makes a metabolic switch to primarily burning fat for fuel! Being metabolically flexible means you can readily tap into stored fat for energy. With the tone device you simply breathe into the device when fasting and receive an instant reading on your breath ketones. You may test an unlimited amount of times, with one investment in a tone. Get on the exclusive vip list to be notified when the 2nd generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

DANGER COFFEE: Danger coffee is clean, mold-free, remineralized coffee created by legendary biohacker Dave Asprey, and engineered to fuel your dangerous side! Get 10% off at melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee with the code MELANIEAVALON!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Chocolate Caramel is available now! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% off at melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee with the code MELANIEAVALON!

TONE DEVICE: Get on the exclusive vip list to be notified when the 2nd generation is available to order and receive the launch discount at tonedevice.com!

Go to victus88.com and use the discount code MELANIEAVALON for $55 off Victus88 testing!

vince's background

the 4 markers tested

immune responses to food

igE allergies

what do people react to most?

food antigens

elimination protocols

the algorithm used for results

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's app to tackle your food sensitivities! Food Sense includes a searchable catalogue of 300+ foods, revealing their gluten, fodmap, lectin, histamine, amine, glutamate, oxalate, salicylate, sulfite, and thiol status. Food Sense also includes compound overviews, reactions to look for, lists of foods high and low in them, the ability to create your own personal lists, and more!

retesting

the report provided with the test

Wheat and gluten

igM reaction

getting the kit and collecting the sample

the cost benefit

nutrition coaching

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Welcome to Episode 347 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends, welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I am so incredibly thrilled and excited friends about the conversation that I'm about to have. I am just so excited. Okay, so here is the backstory on today's conversation. We talk a lot about food and diet on this show.

Melanie Avalon:
We talk a lot about food sensitivities and reacting to food and finding the foods that work with you. We get questions all the time about food sensitivity tests and do they work? Are they accurate? How to approach them, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Melanie Avalon:
I've been very interested in the food sensitivity testing world typical test, and we'll talk about this in the show, but there's a lot of different tests that will test things like IgG, maybe IgM. I've historically always just wondered if those tests were accurate, because there's a lot of debate out there about are they actually showing you sensitivities?

Melanie Avalon:
Are they just showing you what you're eating? And I was kind of just, I had it on my to -do list to really research it some more and hopefully find a company that was doing some sort of testing that I could feel really, really good about.

Melanie Avalon:
And so it was so perfect, so serendipitous. A lot of you guys know Scott Emmins, because he is my partner with AvalonX at MDLogic. He's been on quite a few episodes of this show. So Scott introduced me to Vince Ojeda.

Melanie Avalon:
He is the CEO of BioVision Diagnostics, and they have a product called Victus88. It's a gut health test. And friends, I did a call with Vince a while ago now, and it blew my mind. I was so excited because what he is doing is exactly what I've been looking for for so long, which is a test that can actually show you your food sensitivities.

Melanie Avalon:
And we're gonna talk about why that is. It's a very accurate, complex picture that you're going to receive. And I'm gonna just stop rambling because there's so many specifics that we just need to dive into.

Melanie Avalon:
But Vince, thank you so much for being here.

Vince Ojeda:
Thank you for having me and you're very welcome.

Melanie Avalon:
I just, I can't iterate enough how excited I am about this. And especially when I talk to you on the phone that first time, because, you know, because I meet with companies and products all the time and going into them, I never, I'm always like, not quite sure how it's going to go and the level of detail or knowledge that they're going to have about whatever the topic may be.

Melanie Avalon:
And talking to you was just so exciting because it was literally all these questions that I've had for so long. So to start things off though with the listeners, and you told me this on the phone, but would you like to tell them a little bit about your personal story and your journey with food and food reactions and what led you to this experience with Victus88?

Vince Ojeda:
Oh, absolutely. Again, my name is Vince Ojeda and one of the things that I think everyone needs to know about me first off is that I'm a laboratory person by background. So I grew up in the lab business.

Vince Ojeda:
I've been in the business for close to 30 years now in different capacities. So I've seen a lot of tests through the years that have come and gone. And when I learned about this approach to testing for food sensitivities, it kind of like you, it blew my mind.

Vince Ojeda:
It was one of those things where I looked at it, I had a few doctors that I work with look at it, and we all just started scratching our heads going, this is incredible. This is a whole new approach.

Vince Ojeda:
And so my experience really was in the summer of 2022, when we were launching this test directly to the consumer, and I was doing some media, I was starting to get out and talk to some people. And I was doing a pre interview for a podcast.

Vince Ojeda:
And the interviewer asked me, what were your results like? And I said, well, I haven't taken the test yet. So that's not going to be a good question to ask me. And she said, what are you crazy? She goes, this is your company, this is your test.

Vince Ojeda:
I said, we've been so busy beta testing this with everybody else. So the moral of the story is take your own darn test when you have something, you know, a gold nugget in your hand, you need to take.

Vince Ojeda:
So when I took the test in the summer at the late summer of 2022, I had just turned 50 years old. I was a little over 50 pounds overweight. I just had my doctor's appointment with my doctor who's a good friend of mine.

Vince Ojeda:
And he told me three things at that appointment. He said, you are morbidly obese, you have high blood pressure, we're going to have to up your medication. And technically, you're pre diabetic. And my wife is a nurse.

Vince Ojeda:
And like I said, I've been in the lab business for almost 30 years. So I know what that means. I know what those three things mean to anyone. And when you hear it for yourself, when, when you become the patient and you hear those words being said to you, it has a different impact.

Vince Ojeda:
And so I took the Victus88 gut health test. And I said to myself and everyone around me, I'm going to become the face of Victus88, meaning I'm going to go all in with my results. And I'm going to see exactly what this test can do.

Vince Ojeda:
So when I got my results, and we'll talk about that in a little bit, I'm sure how the results work and what you can do about it. I went all in. And I did everything the report suggested I do. I eliminated the foods that were toxic to my body.

Vince Ojeda:
And Melanie within three days, I was waking up earlier, I had more energy, I was getting things done faster, and more organized. And my wife even said to me, what is going on with you? And I said, I think it's these foods that I'm not eating anymore.

Vince Ojeda:
Within a couple of weeks, I had started losing some weight, I was feeling so much better. Like I said, I had so much more energy, I was like, you know what, I'm going to go to the gym. I hadn't been to the gym in 15 years.

Vince Ojeda:
And I'll never forget Melanie, I got on that treadmill for the first time. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to walk a mile. That's my goal. I'm going to walk a mile. And one mile, as you know, over time turns into two turns into three turns into lifting weights turns into doing other things.

Vince Ojeda:
And so what I'm saying is this test opened the door for me to be able to improve every other aspect of my health and wellness and of my life. So when someone asks me what did Victus88 do for you, I could go on forever because I've lost over 55 pounds.

Vince Ojeda:
I've put on tons of lean muscle mass. I've been able to really self educate myself about not just food sensitivities, but everything else that goes around health and wellness. And I've been able to utilize that information to make my entire life better.

Vince Ojeda:
But it all started with this very simple test that anybody can take, you can take it at home. And we give you the results. And I always tell people, we'll meet you halfway, we'll give you the information you'll need, you'll have this result that will show you exactly what you need to do.

Vince Ojeda:
But I cannot go sit at your dining room table with you and say, Melanie, that was on your red list, you shouldn't be eating that right now. You know what I mean? So you've got to do the work, but we'll give you all the information.

Vince Ojeda:
We'll open that door for you. And that's what Victus88 did for me. And that's what we're trying to do now for as many people as possible, moving forward.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so incredible, so empowering. If listeners are curious, I have not done the test yet, so I'm really, really excited to do it personally. And we're actually going to have Vince back on my other show, the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
So I will have done it before then. So you'll definitely, listeners, have to check out that interview for my own personal experience. But I love that story. I love your testimonial. And I think it's so profound how many potential things that this could help with people that they probably don't even realize.

Melanie Avalon:
Because I think when people think food sensitivities, they think immediate GI reactions. So like their stomach not feeling well, or maybe bowel issues, constipation diarrhea. But it goes so far potentially beyond that.

Melanie Avalon:
Because if you're putting an essentially kryptonite into your body every day and not realizing it in your food choices, just think about the massive potential of energy you can free up in your body energetically for health issues.

Melanie Avalon:
And like you mentioned with like the weight. And I just think there's just so much potential here. So the actual test itself, I am just so excited about it. So it tests four markers, IgE, IgG, IgG4, and C3D.

Melanie Avalon:
So what do these four different markers mean?

Vince Ojeda:
That is a great question. And I agree with you 100%. When people think of poor gut health, they think, well, I know what foods make me bloated. I know what foods make me constipated or give me diarrhea.

Vince Ojeda:
Those are those immediate dIgEstive reactions. And that's important to know. And that's important to avoid those foods, because obviously your body's reacting to those. And we always say these foods are either going to help you or they're going to hurt you.

Vince Ojeda:
And so what we do with these four immune reactions, when you realize that 70% to 80% of your immune system is located in your gut, that should tell you that whatever you're putting into your gut is going to stimulate some type of an immune response.

Vince Ojeda:
The good news is that as a laboratory, we can measure those responses to the foods that you're eating. And I want to make a slight distinction here, just so everybody understands. You don't have to have eaten these foods in the last day or in the last week or any time in your life for that matter.

Vince Ojeda:
We're going to add that food to your sample. Then we're going to measure that reaction in the lab. So we're going to get reactions, good, bad, or indifferent from these foods that we're measuring. And the reason we measure four reactions is because each of those markers that you mentioned, and I'll go through them very quickly, means something different to your body.

Vince Ojeda:
The IgE that you mentioned is typically indicative of an allergic reaction. The IgG is related to more of a sensitivity. The IgG4, we call that a good reaction because that can create tolerance. So even if you're having an allergic reaction, you might have this other inflammatory response called IgG4 that comes in and helps your body with that food.

Vince Ojeda:
And then the C3D is a complement reaction. And what that does is it amplifies some of these reactions, sometimes 1 ,000 to 10 ,000 times what a normal inflammation response would be. So we have to measure all four of those in order to get the full picture of what we're trying to look at here.

Vince Ojeda:
And the key to this whole thing is that we're getting these numbers, we're getting these numeric values per immune reaction, and we can talk all sciency about that. But the bottom line is we have formulated a proprietary algorithm that we put these numbers through that will then tell you the level of the severity of each sensitivity to these food antIgEns that we're adding to your sample.

Vince Ojeda:
So we're giving you the complete picture. We're using the proprietary algorithm to measure the severity of that sensitivity. And then we're going to wrap it all up into what we refer to as a nutrition blueprint that's personalized and customized to you based on your body's reactions of those foods.

Vince Ojeda:
So we're not going to sit there and tell you, oh, eat more leafy green vegetables. That's great advice. But what if you're allergic to lettuce? What if you have a sensitivity to kale? You know, so we have to be careful about what we give people in terms of generic information.

Vince Ojeda:
This is very specific to your body and your body's reactions to those foods.

Melanie Avalon:
of food on that list that you... And I guess most people have been exposed at some point to all the foods. But if there's a food that you've never, ever actually been exposed to, if your body reacts at that moment, does that mean that that's the first time that the body's forming an immune response to that food and learning that reaction right then and there?

Melanie Avalon:
I was researching the process of how the body becomes allergic and the first time it's exposed and then it's creating these antIgEns and this reaction and then the memory T cells and everything. So, if you've actually never been exposed to that food, you can't have a memory of being exposed to it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just confused about people who have never tried these foods before and they react to it.

Vince Ojeda:
I think that's a good question. The bottom line is when you research immunity and especially food sensitivities or even environmental sensitivities like pollen and grass and things like that, there are still a lot of unknowns about why the body reacts the way it does.

Vince Ojeda:
So the real answer is the information that we're going to give you is going to be based on what your body is actually doing. It's not based on the history or some other previous response that you had to it.

Vince Ojeda:
Typically, you'll be able to predict which foods are going to be on what we call your red list. For example, gluten. If you know that gluten makes you bloated or it gives you diarrhea or has some other type of dIgEstive reaction, we're pretty sure that gluten is going to be on your red list.

Vince Ojeda:
I don't eat a lot of lobster, but lobster was on my eliminate list the first time I took a test. So that surprised me because I'm sitting there thinking, I don't even eat lobster. Well, you can have that one of two ways.

Vince Ojeda:
Number one, you know the test is working because it's identifying reactions that your body is giving to that food. And number two, that's an easy one to eliminate because if you've got a food that you never eat that's on your eliminate list, okay, so be it.

Vince Ojeda:
I don't need it anyway. And that's actually when we get further into it, that's one of the big pieces of advice we give to people is look at those foods first and look at the foods that you don't eat anyway and start there.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so in a way, it almost doesn't even matter because it's showing you now like where you're at and what you need to do. That's great. So the IgE, for example, because I think out of these four, even for me, when I first approached this, I was familiar with IgE and IGG.

Melanie Avalon:
So the IgE for the allergies, and I was going down the rabbit hole reading about that, apparently it's only like 0 .05% of our immune system, but it's the most potent with the allergic responses. So are those things that people are born with, the IgE allergies versus the sensitivities, the IgE, is that something that's more created from our food and our environment?

Melanie Avalon:
What do you see with that? Like are people born at blank slate with allergies?

Vince Ojeda:
You asked a question that technically doesn't have an answer because most of the research that we've done has shown that the body's immune reactions. We don't know there's no our food allergies genetic no are you born with them we don't know does your body change over time yes does your immune system change over time of course look at people who have had.

Vince Ojeda:
Cancer and survivors of cancer and things like that you know that their bodies immune systems completely change my nephew for example had a bone marrow transplant when he was four years old that completely transformed his immune system and so.

Vince Ojeda:
We do things to our body whether it's environmental medical. Situational anything that we're doing to our body is going to be changing our immune system. All the time look at the different viruses that are introduced to us on a we just went through a pandemic right you know that's gonna change your immune system so there are there are things that are happening around us that and i think to get back to the basic point of why Victus88 is so important.

Vince Ojeda:
You said it earlier and i'll put it in a different way it's a snapshot it's giving you the hearing now of the foods that are impacting your body right now and at what level of severity and i think that's important because when you have.

Vince Ojeda:
That list of foods in front of you and you're at the grocery store and you know that you've got a green list a yellow list and a red list of foods in front of you you can make actionable decisions based on that report right then and there.

Vince Ojeda:
I'll give you one example of what i did not everybody does this but i did because i of course i'm i had to go all in i eliminated 23 foods from my diet of the 88 that we test for i eliminated 23 of those foods for six months.

Vince Ojeda:
Entirely bar none no exceptions no cheating no nothing when i took the test again at the six month mark. Twenty of those 23 foods fell off of my red list moved to my green list my body my gut had healed and my body had created a tolerance to those foods so that i could reintroduce those into my diet did i reintroduce everything no i still avoid gluten i still avoid cows milk i still avoid certain things that.

Vince Ojeda:
I know still would probably have i have a reaction to and i just feel healthier not eating certain things so that's an important point to is that. You're not born with it because your gut can heal right so we damage our gut over time and then we give it a chance to heal like i did after six months and you can reintroduce those foods so that's a good thing that your body reacts and heals that way when you think about when you when you get a cut on your skin what is it do what does it do.

Vince Ojeda:
It forms a scab why is that because your body is self healing and your gut is the same way when you give it a chance to heal your gut will self heal and I think that's the point of Victus88 is you're giving your body that chance to heal itself.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so fascinating about going the six months and then the food's moving from the red to the green list. So when that happens, and I understand that there's an algorithm and I'm assuming it, well, I guess this is part of the question.

Melanie Avalon:
When that shift happens, from foods going from red to green, for example, is it that the IgG, the sensitivity goes down and the IgG for tolerance goes up? Does just the tolerance go up and the IgG is still there?

Melanie Avalon:
What is the potential options for how the immune system is changing? Do you just get more tolerance or do you also lose the sensitivity or is it a combination?

Vince Ojeda:
It is definitely a combination. You, your body creates more tolerance and you lose some of the sensitivity because if you're not introducing those foods into your body that are toxic to your body, your body's not reacting to them all the time.

Vince Ojeda:
And that's the main problem with food sensitivities is that when you're constantly introducing foods into your body that are toxic to you and you don't know it because we often say, we don't know what we don't know, you're actually creating what's referred to in our business and yours as well, I'm sure as chronic inflammation.

Vince Ojeda:
And you know the list of diseases that are associated with chronic inflammation. So if you can avoid those foods that you know are creating toxicity in your body and give your body a chance to create that tolerance, reduce the sensitivity, give your gut a chance to heal.

Vince Ojeda:
And yes, it is a combination of all of those. Then you're giving your entire immune system a chance to recover and build a better immune system and better tolerance to all foods for that matter. I'm the case in point.

Vince Ojeda:
I mean, I've lived it, I've seen it.

Melanie Avalon:
You know what I would be super interested about? I actually just interviewed for this show Dr. Valter Longo. He's one of the main fasting researchers, possibly the main fasting researcher. He does a lot of research on the fasting mimicking diet, which is a five day diet that sort of simulates the fasting state.

Melanie Avalon:
And I know they've done a lot of research on how it can reset the immune system. I'd be super curious, A, how extended fasts would affect people's turnover rates or changes, and also our audience being fasters.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just super curious if people who do intermittent fasting, if they get faster results after removing the foods and the turnover. Do you have any thoughts about fasting? I don't know if you collect data on your users as far as their eating habits and their fasting habits.

Vince Ojeda:
We really don't right now, but I will tell you that that would make sense, that if you're doing the intermittent fasting, if you're doing any fasting protocol, that if you're in addition to that eliminating the foods that are hurting you in the first place, then that body's response, that immune response should improve quicker in a shorter amount of time.

Vince Ojeda:
So, that would make total sense to me, but I don't have any data points on that because we don't collect anything on our patients. We do for our medical patients. So, we have two patient populations.

Vince Ojeda:
We have a medical population who we work through, you know, holistic practitioners and doctors and things like that. The bulk of our business, the vast majority of our business though, is with patients who are direct consumer.

Vince Ojeda:
They go on to our website. If they have to have a doctor's order, we provide that. Then they just order it online and we send them a kit and they send the kit back to us.

Melanie Avalon:
Gotcha. I almost don't want to ask this question because I don't want people to make assumptions about what foods they may or may not react to. But I am super curious out of these 88 foods, like is there a few foods that most people tend to react to and a few that tend to be less reactive?

Melanie Avalon:
If I were to guess, I would guess that things like gluten are higher up there and things like meat might be lower and then plants like in between. I don't know. I don't know. Like did you have data on the spectrum of reactions?

Vince Ojeda:
We don't track data per food only because we know that every result is going to be individualized to that patient. What I will tell you is that you are spot on. What we see the most of are things like gluten, cow's milk, egg albumin, and egg yolk because we test for both.

Vince Ojeda:
We test for the egg white and the egg yolk, things like that. When you look at the meats and some of the other things like that, they're much lower on the list. Typically, that said, black pepper is a big one.

Vince Ojeda:
We test for black pepper and garlic. That's another big one that we see quite often on these results as something to eliminate. It really does run the gamut. When you talk about gluten and cow's milk and things like that, for sure, those are the big ones.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm so excited to do mine. Do you test chives? I eat a lot of chives. They're in the onion family though.

Vince Ojeda:
they are, so we test for onion. And one of the things to keep in mind is that there are 88 food antIgEns that we test for. So we're going to measure these four immune responses in all 88 of those food antigens.

Vince Ojeda:
We also provide you with our gut guide. When you get your result, you also get access to our gut guide. And in that gut guide, there is a food family guide where you can parse out each of those foods so chives would be under that onion family.

Vince Ojeda:
And there are 382 foods in the food families that we test for. So there's a huge swath of foods that are really included in this test if you parse it down to those food families.

Melanie Avalon:
That's why I was going with that question partly because out of all the foods I think chives would be the one that's probably not on there. But then I was thinking about how it's in the onion family because I saw that chart, which was super cool where you can see the family and the other foods that are related.

Melanie Avalon:
How much does that transfer? If I came back allergic to onions, would I pretty much apply that to chives, at least for the elimination period? How much do people avoid that whole family if the food is in the red from that family?

Vince Ojeda:
simplicity sake, most of our customers deal with the food antIgEn itself. So typically if someone has onions on their list, they're probably not going to go to the food family and eliminate asparagus and chives and garlic and leek, you know, all those other foods in that family.

Vince Ojeda:
However, it's your choice. So we always tell people, we're going to meet you halfway. We're going to give you the information. You're going to have all this information at your fingertips and you can go as far as you want with it.

Vince Ojeda:
We have customers and patients who say, you know what, I absolutely cannot give up my peanuts. Okay, you've got 11 other foods on there, so you're eliminating 90% of the foods that are offending your body.

Vince Ojeda:
So 90% is better than 0%. And when you get down in those food families, it gets very, very detailed and some of these food families have 12, 15 other foods in them. So it's tough to do that. So we're really at that top level of these 88 foods.

Vince Ojeda:
If you eliminate those, you're doing a lot better than you were before you took the test.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I can imagine. And I'm super curious going back to the actual immune markers themselves, because like I said, I just never, this is what I've been looking for. I've never found a test where they are testing the actual IgG, IgE, and then also these coloring, tolerance, and amplification markers with the IgG4 and the C3D complement.

Melanie Avalon:
And for listeners, so if they would like to get their own kit, we're so grateful. Vince has a discount code for you guys. So the website is victus88.com. And you can use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount on your kit.

Melanie Avalon:
So I definitely cannot recommend enough that people check that out. I'm really, really excited about that. And for listeners, these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode347. And those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And they will actually include, we will put a picture there because I know it's kind of hard hearing all of these letters and these IgG, IgE, IgG4, all these things. If you want to actually see it, we'll put a really nice picture in the show notes that kind of helps no pun intended paint of a clearer picture of everything.

Melanie Avalon:
So again, show notes ifpodcast.com/episode347. And we will also put in the show notes the discount code, which will be Melanie Avalon and that will get you a discount on Victus88 at victus88.com.

Melanie Avalon:
So definitely check that out. Besides IgG4 for tolerance and C3D for amplification, are there other tolerance ones and other amplification ones? Or how did you guys find these two markers? I'm just blown away that nobody else is doing this.

Vince Ojeda:
Markers have been there for decades, and I think that is the kind of the crux of the issue right now is that most of the other tests that are on the market will test you for either an allergy or a sensitivity.

Vince Ojeda:
Sometimes you can get both if you pay extra. We include all four because these are the four that are the most important to your body's immune reactions, obviously. Technically, any lab could do this testing.

Vince Ojeda:
The biggest difference is that we test for all four immune reactions, and when we give you those results, you have that full picture of what your body's reacting to with those 88 different foods. The biggest difference really is in that algorithm and how we calculate the level of the severity of the sensitivity and break those out for you in that simplified nutrition blueprint that you can print those pages off, take it to the grocery store, take a screenshot on your phone, and you'll know which foods to avoid and which foods you're safe with, and it makes a lot of sense that way.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. We're mentioning the green and the red, but there's also a yellow list.

Vince Ojeda:
There is, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the yellow list?

Vince Ojeda:
The nutrition blueprint has the three columns of food. There's actually two pages that are the most important in this entire report. And in those two pages, each one has the green list which is no limitation.

Vince Ojeda:
You can eat those foods all you want. The yellow list is a rotate list. In other words, you can rotate those foods in and out of your diet every 72 hours. So your body had some reaction but not enough of a reaction to cause you to eliminate that food entirely from your diet.

Vince Ojeda:
And of course the red list is the eliminate list which is you need to take those foods entirely out of your diet because those are the foods that are causing immune reactions that are causing your issues.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so question about the yellow list. So, you know, so that has the option to rotate it. Like you said, every 72 hours. Could you also take the eliminate approach with the yellow list and try to get those yellow foods to move to green later?

Melanie Avalon:
you

Vince Ojeda:
Yes, absolutely. There are, I've seen some reports where there are a lot of foods on that yellow list and it is tough to remember which ones to rotate. Myself, I had just a few in my yellow list so it was pretty easy.

Vince Ojeda:
I had eggs, I had egg yolk and egg white in my yellow list so that was pretty easy for me. I only eat eggs at the time once or twice a week anyway so that was easy for me to rotate. And then typically, yes, typically what patients will do is take their yellow list and just move them to the red list.

Vince Ojeda:
Sometimes it's practically speaking, it's just easier to do it that way.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. And what is the sensitivity and specificity of the test? Actually, I think I asked you this on the phone, like how accurate and are there false positives, false negatives? How accurate is it?

Vince Ojeda:
The accuracy of the test is extremely high because, again, we're measuring age -old, decades -old immune reactions in a laboratory setting. So this is a what's considered a highly complex laboratory test.

Vince Ojeda:
So we're measuring these reactions. They're steadfast, old bygone reactions that we can measure on an instrument, on an analyzer that gives us a number. It's a hard and fast number. There really are no false negatives or positives because these are numeric values coming off of an analyzer run in a laboratory.

Vince Ojeda:
I mean, the main thing really is that algorithm. It's putting those pieces together. If you go to the store and you buy a puzzle with a thousand pieces in it and you open the box and there's only 250 pieces in there, you're never going to be able to put that puzzle together.

Vince Ojeda:
What we give you are all 1 ,000 pieces. So you can put that whole puzzle together and see that whole picture of your immunity to those 88 different foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Has the algorithm evolved or changed or does it evolve and change as you... I know it's anonymous data, but as you do these tests and people retest, which that could be another question as well, has the algorithm changed?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm super just curious, like before you tested anybody, did you create this algorithm without having this massive population sample?

Vince Ojeda:
The algorithm changes, it definitely changes over time because as you add more patient population to the statistical values of the reference range, what we call a reference range in the laboratory, which is your zero to 100, your low to high and everything in between, those reference ranges change over time with people as you add more people to those ranges.

Vince Ojeda:
So we evaluate that on an annual basis, so we don't evaluate it every month or anything like that. So typically when those reference ranges change, that's when the algorithm is going to change. I will tell you it's ever, ever, ever so slight.

Vince Ojeda:
Barely, rarely do we see a major change where we would have shifted a lot of people into this other category. It's pretty solid as far as how the algorithm is consistent. Very rarely would we change something to where people would shift into a different category on a regular basis.

Vince Ojeda:
It's just, that's not, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So that led to my second question, the actual retesting. So when people are doing this, can people benefit from just doing it once? Do they need to be retesting? If so, how often are they retesting? What does that process look like?

Vince Ojeda:
Most of our customers do the test one time. It's their option if they want to retest. What we do recommend is that when you do the, when you get your first result and you follow that protocol, follow it for at least three months.

Vince Ojeda:
You don't have to do it six like I did. I was pretty extreme, but I was on a mission. So I had a different perspective, right? The typical patient will go about three months with that protocol. If you see the changes, you feel the changes, which you will, you'll know when those changes are happening because it happens very quickly, by the way.

Vince Ojeda:
It may not be necessary to retest. I retested because I was very curious. There were a lot of foods on my red list that I wanted to reintroduce back into my diet. So I was seeing some foods, right? So that's why I retested.

Vince Ojeda:
We do have a certain segment of our patient population who want to retest and see it on paper in writing. Yep, sure enough, I tried peanuts the other day and I had no reaction. I didn't have any eczema.

Vince Ojeda:
I didn't get any headaches the next day like I used to. So you can, if you're listening to your body and you're in touch with how your body's feeling and showing itself to you, because your body does show you exactly what it's feeling, then you don't necessarily need to retest.

Vince Ojeda:
We recommend it for people who are on the fence with some foods, but they want to know for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that makes sense. I would definitely be like you. I'd want to retest. I don't want to know for sure. I would probably want to be retesting like, you know, yearly because that's just me.

Vince Ojeda:
Yeah, I do every six months.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's good to know. As something else that you talk about in the results, not testing from the actual people's immune responses, but I believe there is information about FODMAPs and amines and moldy food as well.

Melanie Avalon:
What are the other foods that it talks about in people's reports or other compounds?

Vince Ojeda:
and food. Sure. So we provide what we refer to as the nutrition blueprint, which is going to be your green list, your yellow list, and your red list. We're going to give you a less restrictive and a more restrictive diet.

Vince Ojeda:
So you can choose between those two, which one you want to do. We also provide you with an immune index, which is basically a list of rank order, high to low, what kind of reactions you had in your foods by an order of the 88 foods.

Vince Ojeda:
And then we will also give you what we refer to as biogenic compounds. These are not immune response driven, but they can mimic irritations and allergies. So you kind of wonder, okay, is this is this in a reaction?

Vince Ojeda:
So oxalates amines, histamines, lectins, FODMAP, like you mentioned, salicylate and some others. So that's a separate page in the report. And then we also give you some exposures by food group. We're not measuring each reaction by group, or we're measuring very specific reactions by the 88 foods, as we mentioned, but then we break it down into food groups.

Vince Ojeda:
So you may have more sensitivities to regular fish and more allergic reactions to shellfish. We also look at seeds and nuts, fruits versus vegetables, legumes and beans, meats and dairy. So we give you all of that information.

Vince Ojeda:
These reports usually run about 14, 15 pages long, just so you know.

Melanie Avalon:
You just had so many keywords. I know listeners are familiar. I made my app food sense guide. It's not obviously at all looking at immune reactions, but it was because I was so fascinated by people's reactions to things you mentioned, FODMAP, histamine, solicilates.

Melanie Avalon:
So, man, sounds like this whole pair really well with that. People would just like to learn more about the non -immunogenic responses and things. So you guys have a really awesome website, which the website is victus88.com.

Melanie Avalon:
So, v -i -c -t -u -s -8 -8 .com. There's a really awesome guide that you can download that has an FAQ and it goes through all of this and it gives you an idea of what to expect and what you can learn.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's really comprehensive and really helpful. And it even has questions. Like one of the questions on it was, like what is the difference between gluten and wheat on the report? And, you know, people may think that they react to gluten, but it doesn't show up on the results.

Melanie Avalon:
And so, you know, it talks about all of that out of curiosity, by the way, gluten versus wheat. What's the difference there? Cause I think that's something people think about all the time as far as reacting to things.

Melanie Avalon:
And they kind of lump them together as one thing.

Vince Ojeda:
that they do and I will tell you that typically if you have a reaction to gluten so severe that we're telling you to eliminate it from your diet, we will typically tell you to eliminate barley, rye and whole wheat as well.

Vince Ojeda:
Just that being said, gluten is in whole wheat. However, wheat also has different proteins that can be reactive. So that's why we measure for both. So you could have a sensitivity to whole wheat but not the gluten.

Vince Ojeda:
When you have a reaction to gluten, we're automatically going to eliminate whole wheat because gluten is in whole wheat, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
I understand the algorithm is doing this work for the person and that it's putting the foods into the green, red, and yellow. So does it even matter? Because I'm envisioning how I'm probably going to react.

Melanie Avalon:
Like if I get back, because I know for me personally from a prior blood test, well, this was a while ago though, but I have an IgE reaction to wheat. So if I were to see my results on the Victus88 test, like does it even matter, say wheat is in the red for me?

Melanie Avalon:
Does it matter if it's an IgE versus IgG as far as the potential implications of if I can switch it over to green?

Vince Ojeda:
This is why we measure all four immune responses because if you have an i g e response which you said from a previous lab report you did have an i g e response to two to whole wheat. Problem is they didn't measure you for i g g four which is your tolerance the tolerance can offset the allergy so that's why we say i g g four can actually be good that's why we measure it because it can counterbalance that allergic reaction meaning.

Vince Ojeda:
Your body is actually protecting you at the same time as having an allergic reaction if that makes sense so i would say you might still have weed on your report but you might also have have a tolerance reaction to where.

Vince Ojeda:
Our report may say no melanie that that's green for you weeks we totally fine cuz your immune tolerance.

Melanie Avalon:
And do you find that people who have the IgE versus the IGG, like, is it easier to switch over IGG ones versus IgE ones, or are either of them open for switching?

Vince Ojeda:
The tolerance reaction is only going to impact the allergy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay.

Vince Ojeda:
Yeah, so the the IGG -4 is not going to do anything for your IGG, which is your sensitivity.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that's interesting. So you have the allergy, the IgG for tolerance can help that. So the sensitivity, the IgG, that's one where you just have to essentially lose the sensitivity by not exposing yourself to it and healing your gut.

Melanie Avalon:
Boom. Correct.

Vince Ojeda:
Correct, exactly. Okay. That's the one where you're giving your gut a chance to heal. You give your immune response or your immune system a chance to settle down, give your gut a chance to heal, get rid of your leaky gut, and then you can reintroduce those foods based on your body's reactions after that first few months.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, and then the amplification, the C3D complement, does that amplify both sensitivities and allergies or just one of them?

Vince Ojeda:
Typically the C3D complement is only going to amplify the sensitivity reaction, which is the IgG. The problem is that that complement, when that's present with an IgG response, it can be 1 ,000 to 10 ,000 times the normal sensitivity response.

Vince Ojeda:
So that's a lot. That makes a huge difference. And again, that's why we added this to our test protocol, because it makes such a big difference in the practical application of what you're going to do with that food.

Vince Ojeda:
You cannot do this test with one of these or two of these. You have to have all four, because as you can see, they all intermingle. Some offset each other, some amplify each other. So you have to have all four to run them through this algorithm to give you this list of foods that says safe, not safe, rotate.

Melanie Avalon:
And what about so you don't have IGM, which like when I've done testing in the past, it would always test me for IGG and IGM. Is that one just not relevant to what people are looking to gain here information wise?

Vince Ojeda:
The IgM reaction is typically a reaction that is so fast that by the time you measure it and by the, you know, a couple of hours can pass and that IgM reaction is not going to be there anymore. So the IgE reaction is a valuable reaction to measure.

Vince Ojeda:
The IgM is so quick and furious that it's out of your system by the time it's going to make any type of even short -term impact on your body.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. Okay. Very interesting. And then so the actual process. So when people get the kit and again, listeners who have to circle back when we have been on the biohacking podcast and hear my experience, but for listeners who get the kit, what is the process like?

Melanie Avalon:
How easy is it? What are the options for collecting the sample? What does that look like?

Vince Ojeda:
Sure. The process is extremely simple. We spend a lot of time making this a seamless, simple process for customers. They go to the website. You mentioned it earlier. It's victus88.com. They will click on order test.

Vince Ojeda:
Well, first, read about it. Learn more. We've got some links there and some good information on our social media as well. We're putting a lot of content out there for people. Order the test. You fill in your information with your demographics.

Vince Ojeda:
You put in your credit card. You'll have a discount code that Melanie mentioned as well. We ship you the kit. You'll have the kit within two days. You can collect it yourself with a finger stick. It's about a 30 second to a one minute process to collect that sample with a finger stick.

Vince Ojeda:
Or you can choose the venopuncture or the serum sample collection, which we do give you a couple of options to find someone who will come out to your house or your office and draw your blood. They'll spin it down and they'll take it back to FedEx for you.

Vince Ojeda:
It's a little more expensive. The finger stick is by far our most popular option because it is a do -it -yourself. You can do it right there in the privacy of your home whenever you're ready to do it.

Vince Ojeda:
Everything's included in the kit. Everything you need is included in the kit, including the FedEx bag and shipping label to go back to us at the lab. So we ship you the sample. You collect your kit. You ship it back to us and we'll have a report to you within a couple of weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I love that. And I can't wait to do it for myself. And also for listeners, I just wanted to iterate. I've thought this myself. I've definitely seen this with feedback from listeners. Sometimes people, like they don't want to know.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I kind of see this with continuous glucose monitors. People love wearing continuous glucose monitors. On this show, we talk about it all the time because it gives you a real -time picture of how foods are affecting your blood sugar levels.

Melanie Avalon:
And I will hear people say, they just don't want to know. So what advice or guidance do you have for people who might be fearful? They're worried that it's going to show them that their favorite food is something they react to.

Melanie Avalon:
I will say that that guide I mentioned earlier on the website has a very nice, like it walks you through how to handle the results that you get and how to best tackle it in the way that works with you and your life.

Melanie Avalon:
And what are your negotiables and non -negotiables with these foods that you personally are open to excluding or not excluding? So I guess just what would you tell listeners about the cost benefit as far as learning information that maybe they don't want to hear, maybe they do?

Melanie Avalon:
What are your thoughts there?

Vince Ojeda:
I would say first, you have to realize that only you can decide on what's best for you. This test will empower you. It will give you the information that you can use as much or as little as you like to completely change your life.

Vince Ojeda:
And I'm a prime example of that. I would not be the person I am today without this test. We have testimonials from people all over the country, all walks of life, all income levels that write us thank you notes because, yeah, you know what?

Vince Ojeda:
You're going to have foods on your list that you love, that you enjoy, that you are going to miss for a few months. But you know what? It's worth it. If it were easy, everyone would do it. And taking care of your health and wellness isn't always easy.

Vince Ojeda:
Sometimes you have to do the hard things. This is a temporary change. If you really want to supercharge your life, what I call supercharge your life, then this is step one. A lot of people will go to different avenues of health and wellness.

Vince Ojeda:
They'll buy the magic pill, they'll do this supplement, they'll do that. And they don't know if it's going to work. At least we know that this has the science behind it. At least you know going into this that, okay.

Vince Ojeda:
For me, for example, eggs were a big one for me. And they were red, red. I mean, you can see the values on this report. My eggs were off the chart and so was gluten and so was cow's milk. And I had no idea.

Vince Ojeda:
So I had to eliminate those and you know what? It changed everything for me. So the cost benefit is there. And again, I say you have to decide what's best for you. We'll meet you halfway. We're going to get you the information.

Vince Ojeda:
We're going to get you the resources. We've even got a team of nutrition coaches who will coach you one on one on a tell a health about your report. We even provide access for you. If you take advantage of it, great.

Vince Ojeda:
If you don't, that's up to you too. But this will help. It has helped everyone who takes it seriously and applies the protocol. It helps people in ways I can't even, we don't have time to tell all the stories I want to tell.

Vince Ojeda:
you

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said at the beginning, I am just beyond thrilled about this resource. I cannot wait to do it myself. I can't wait for listeners to try it out and listeners. Definitely let us know if you do it.

Melanie Avalon:
We would love to hear your experience. Definitely right into the show. And we would love to share that on the show, people's experience, you know, doing this report and this test and getting the results and how it changes everything.

Melanie Avalon:
So again, Vince, thank you so much for everything that you're doing and, you know, helping create this test and access to it, which I just think is going to change so many lives. I mean, I'm sure it already is.

Melanie Avalon:
And yeah, again, so for listeners, victus88.com, coupon code MelanieAvalon to get a discount. I can't wait to do it myself and have you on the biohacking show and talk more about all the things. So just thank you so much for all that you're doing.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just so grateful for everything.

Vince Ojeda:
Thank you so much, Melanie. I appreciate your time and everybody out there. Stay healthy, stay well, and let us know if you have any questions. You can always reach us through social media. We're very in touch with our customers, 100% response rate.

Melanie Avalon:
What are the links for people to follow you on social media and all the things?

Vince Ojeda:
Facebook, we are Victus88 on Instagram. We are Gut Health Test, all one word, Gut Health Test on Instagram. And our website, you can contact us through our contact page on the website. Or you can call us, call us at the lab.

Vince Ojeda:
Our phone numbers on the website, you know, we love hearing from customers. We love answering questions and getting people through those little last minute hurdles of, oh, but what about this and what about that?

Vince Ojeda:
So we're 100% in touch with our customers. When you call the lab, you don't get a phone menu, a live person answers the phone. We're very old fashioned that way. We wanna be in direct contact with all of our customers.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I love it so much. Well, we'll put links again to all of that in the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode347. Thank you so much, Vince. I can't wait to continue to connect on all of this.

Melanie Avalon:
And thank you for all you're doing. And we will talk soon in the future. Excellent. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice.

Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon:
See you next week.

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LINKS

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Dec 04

Episode 346: Semaglutide, Ozempic, GLP-1, Glucagon, Gastric Emptying, Muscle Loss, Insulin Resistance, Exclusion Zone Water, The Mind Blown Podcast, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 346 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I'm doing wonderfully. How are you?

Melanie Avalon: I am good. We are recording this so far in advance. I'm looking at the week that this comes out, which is the first week of December and I think I don't want to jinx it. Well, man, there might be multiple products coming out and multiple things coming out for me this month, but I think this is the week that I might be releasing my third podcast. Maybe that's the plan. So, I'm going to go ahead and say what it is. So, Scott Emmens, the fabulous Scott Emmens at MD Logic. He's been on this show multiple times. He and I are just like friends for life. And it's kind of a problem because we have a lot of business calls because we're constantly creating supplements together. And we actually have another side project we might be doing, which is very exciting, but we tend to just go on these really random tangents and talk for an hour about not work-related things.

And so, we realized one day that we should maybe have a podcast about all of this. Actually, started when we had a crazy theory about the Mandela Effect that we realized. So, we're going to be launching the Mind Blown Podcast hopefully this week. It's been so fun recording it thus far. Basically, each episode, it's so fun. So, each episode we start off by, we bring to the table a mind blown fact to share. So, we share one and then we rate each other's mind blown facts and we talk about it, and then we have the topic. Like I said, the first two episodes, it was going to be one episode, but of course, with Scott and I, it ended up going longer. So, it's a two parter about the Mandela Effect and our crazy theory surrounding it. And then yeah, there's some really good episodes after that, each episode will be an a la carte, like, mind blown topic.

Vanessa Spina: That's so exciting. Congrats.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. It's really fun to be podcasting, not about something health related. [chuckles] I mean, I'm sure some of it will be health related, but it's a different genre.

Vanessa Spina: That's so fun.

Melanie Avalon: So yeah. Do you think you'll start your other podcast some time?

Vanessa Spina: I think about it. Right now, I like it just as a thought you know.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: It's like a happy thought. I'm like, “I love to do a podcast on that. I feel like I have so much to share,” but then I'm like, today I was like, “I could do a podcast about how to create products because there're just so many different topics that would be fun to get into.” But yeah, I think doing one on consciousness and mindset and consciously, deliberately cultivating a beautiful life, that's the one that I think would be just, like, a pure pleasure to do. So yeah, it's a happy thought right now, but whenever I mention, like, definitely listeners of my current podcast are like, “Oh, I would love to hear about that.” So, I can feel the joy of launching it. And I'm so happy for you and Scott because I feel like it's just going to just bring more joy to your life.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. Yeah, it is so fun. It's really wonderful that I just so thoroughly enjoy all the podcasting stuff. Like, it's just so fun and they all fulfill different needs in a way. Like with the Melanie Avalon I'm learning, and I'm getting to learn about these topics and talk to amazing guests and meet new people. And then this one is my besties, friendship, nourishing for the soul and then talk about fasting. And I feel like the audience here, actually they've been here for so long, so it's kind of like family and friend’s adventure. And then with Scott thing, it's just kind of like a new, really fun.

Vanessa Spina: That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you both.

Melanie Avalon: Thank you. I also might be releasing, hopefully this month, our next supplement. Hopefully we're getting the final formulation figured out right now.

Vanessa Spina: Is this the spirulina one?

Melanie Avalon: Yes. So, I'm really excited because yes, we're releasing spirulina. We're working the final formulation right now, trying to get the best formulation, but there are so many health benefits to spirulina and I'm obsessed with it. It's basically, like, just one of the most nutrient-rich things you can get in a tiny little package, and it's great for detox and trace minerals and just so many things. It's like a superfood. I don't like that word, but I'm excited about it. But that's just a teaser because we're figuring it out all out right now, even though by the time this airs, I probably will have been talking about it a lot at that point. So yes, so listeners, if they would like to get updates about that, which I am so, so excited about. They can go to avalonx.us/emaillist. I'm just so excited. I can't wait till it manifests. And I really want the packaging. I love design. Like, Vanessa, we've talked about this. Like, we love packaging design and such.

Vanessa Spina: I just finished doing that today for the new Tone Device. So, like, I've been buzzing all day about it.

Melanie Avalon: Isn't it fun?

Vanessa Spina: It's the best. But today we’re doing because the cover-- the boxes are already fully designed with the new second generation but today I got the samples, so I got touch them and feel them and see them. And the main difference is that it says Generation 2. But were also just adding all the logos because we finished doing all the third-party lab testing. And I'm now an expert [laughs] on third party lab testing for electronics. Because after the past few years of doing it, it's always a little bit nerve wracking because you're like, “What if the test fails or it comes back with like there's some kind of issue?” And we just got everything back. Everything is fully, fully certified and approved. But there's a lot of different regulations because I sell in multiple markets. So, the US has FCC for electronics and there's a whole bunch of them. But, like, in Europe, you have EN standards and RoHS. And then there's also UL testing for safety. And there's another one. Oh, and then there's like, California Proposition 65 that nothing in your products. Devices can have any of the certain materials or you have to disclose it. And it's not just the product, it's also the packaging.

So, it's a lot of stuff, but everything is fully approved. And we thought it would because the first generation all was-- so there wasn't any concern with it, but always just feels good to get everything, get all the certificates and then officially put all of those logos on the box and put all the details and everything. We were just finishing that. But I love it. [chuckles] I love that part. I love that part of design. I just love the creation process and getting the packages. And I'm now selling an accessory, which is the charging cable, because almost every week someone emails me and says that they lost their charging cable. So, I decided, like a year ago to just start making them and selling them as an accessory. And then we made this cute box with it. But I just got the actual finished box today, so it was really fun to get that and get it photographed and yeah, I just love it so much. I love all the design, the testing. I just love all the aspects of creating products. I don't know, since I was a little kid.

Melanie Avalon: I was just about to say, “Same here.” I was thinking, “We're so similar.” And I was thinking, ever since I'm like a little kid, I was, like, creating stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Yes, same. That's what my mom used to always say. I was just so creative. I was creating or inventing things and then selling them. Like, trying to sell them either, like, on the street [laughs] that sounds weird, on our sidewalk.

Melanie Avalon: What were some of the things you tried to sell?

Vanessa Spina: So, I would make jewelry. Like, at first, I started out with just friendship bracelets. And when my parents would go play tennis at their tennis court, I would go and sell them to people for, like, a dollar, and everyone would buy one, I guess because I was, like, a kid and you want to support kids. And then I upgraded because my mom would go on business trips to the Philippines and she'd bring back all these beads. She'd bring up these big bags of beads that she would get at the markets there. So, I would make all this jewelry earrings and necklaces, and I would sell them around whenever there was block parties or garage sales or things like that. But I had individual little plastic bags for each one. And then I printed a logo on the computer, like, in paint [chuckles] onto stickers--

Melanie Avalon: Paint. Windows 95.

Vanessa Spina: Doesn't that make you happy to think about Paint?

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man, I'm getting hit with, like, memories. Oh, the memories are flooding in. They're flooding. Do you remember Kid Pix? Did you ever use that?

Vanessa Spina: No. [laughs] What's that one?

Melanie Avalon: That was like software with-- but it was similar to Paint but upgraded.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that stuff makes me so happy to think about. I loved paint. Such simple times. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know, all the colors. Do you remember, like, the color wheel? It was like, ah, you could pick the colors.

Vanessa Spina: It was so good. Like, I want to do Paint right now. I’ve got to google some old-time machine version of Paint. It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: You would have loved Kid Pix.

Vanessa Spina: It sounds similar.

Melanie Avalon: It was like Paint, but it was, like, for kids. And it had more stuff.

Vanessa Spina: Every time you say it, I'm like I feel like I played that at one of my friend's houses or something.

Melanie Avalon: You probably did. Do you remember going to computer class? I wonder do they still do that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I loved computer class. I think it was one of my favorites.

Melanie Avalon: I always thought it was so, like, they were talking down to us. I was like, “I know how to do this. This is not complicated.” [chuckles] Why are we here?

Vanessa Spina: Computer class is probably just class now. Whereas, like--

Melanie Avalon: It probably is.

[laughter]

Vanessa Spina: But even you saying computer class makes me happy. I'm like, “Oh, I loved computer class.”

Melanie Avalon: I know. Did you do the typing games to learn how to type?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, typing tutor. There was typing tutor. I think we had one called

Melanie Avalon: I did JumpStart.

Vanessa Spina: It was so much fun.

Melanie Avalon: It was stressful, though. Okay, that was, like, the one computer game, because it was like, you have to type the things fast. I was really stressful, especially when it was in class and you had to type words fast enough. I don't know. I didn't like the pressure of that. I'd rather just learn it on my own. Oh, do you know why? Oh, this was something. Oh, wait, there's like a fun fact and I don't know the answer. Did you know with the keyboard, the way it is set up is not the most efficient way? It doesn't really make sense the way it's set up right now. And so, they've tried to change it because I was reading something about how hard it is to change things in society, and they've tried to change it to make it more efficient, but you just can't because people are so used to the way it is now that they won't use a new manifestation, even if it's better.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that makes sense. I've also heard that about our mathematical system, like the Egyptian system or something was way better and made a lot more sense. And the way that we learn it now is weird and kind of clumsy.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of upsetting. Like, if you're just in too deep, you just can't--

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shifts are really hard, are really hard. Like the most mind-blowing thing-

Melanie Avalon: Oh, good. Let me add this to my list.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, you definitely should. Gerald Pollack. I'm not sure if you've interviewed him or heard about him,-

Melanie Avalon: Yes, reading about him.

Vanessa Spina: -The Fourth Phase of Water. His book was the biggest mind-blowing thing that I've read about the fact that we have this gel like water that forms inside our cells, and it forms these sheets of honeycomb. They're like honeycomb, like hexagonal or is that hexagonal? These honeycomb layers around structures and so it's called structured water. It's kind of like a snowflake, but it's really amazing because we can actually charge it. And infrared heat charges that water. And so, he discovered this and he was basing it on the work of some of his colleagues and predecessors, and it's really, really fascinating. So, they have this fourth phase water that they actually put two electrodes into charged water and it was able to light a light bulb.

So, our bodies are actually batteries and we have this water inside of us that is like a gel and we basically can charge it up by going into the sun. Like, the sun is 50% infrared and infrared energy is all around us. Like, if you had infrared goggles on, you could see energy coming from everything around you. But the sun gives us a lot of charge and it charges up that water. So that water, he also calls it exclusion zone water and it expands. And when you-- this is the part that, okay, that already blew my mind, because it's like, okay, we need to redo all of science and redo all of biology with this understanding. When you do cold exposure, like cold plunging, you basically are doing it a lot of ancient cultures or Northern European cultures, they do it in the winter because there's no sun. And by getting cold, it then forces our bodies to generate infrared heat from our core and that charges up our cells and gives us the same kind of energy that we would get from the sun in the summer, which is like, amazing, but also red-light therapy. The infrared on that also charges up and so does infrared sauna. But it's so amazing. I got to interview him on my podcast.

Melanie Avalon: You did?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, and I was just--

Melanie Avalon: Oh, I want to interview him. That's amazing. When did you interview him?

Vanessa Spina: Was like maybe six or eight months ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, recently?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. And you will love him. He's one of the kindest, most down to earth people I've ever interviewed. And it's amazing because you and I talk about this all the time, but you have these-- I don't know if you can even call him a scientist-

Melanie Avalon: Legend.

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, legend who've done so much, made these incredible discoveries, and you'll talk to them and they're just like the most down to earth people in the world, even though you wouldn't expect that. And then you talk to other people who haven't really accomplished that much and they're like not down, you know what I mean? They have overinflated egos and stuff. So, it's so nice when you meet someone like that and yeah, he's just so incredible. You have to interview him and read his books because what's really fascinating too, is apparently Russian scientists had discovered it a long time ago and then when it was sort of like challenged by the international scientific community-

Melanie Avalon: They didn't get backlash?

Vanessa Spina: -yeah, there was a lot of backlash. And so, at the time, Russia was embarrassed. So, they made the scientists who discovered it publicly say that he was wrong. But Gerald Pollack worked with his mentee or someone who was like an assistant or mentee of his, and he said that he knew that he was right and he knew that he was right until the time that he died. But he had to publicly say that he was wrong just to not bring shame on the country. And so, thankfully, Dr. Pollack has taken on the work. But it's really fascinating. Absolutely fascinating, because our bodies do get energized by the light. We are learning that. We do get energy in other ways. And it all kind of goes back to the mitochondria, because this exclusion zone water forms inside the mitochondria. And that's one of the reasons the mitochondria cristae have all those folds, because the more folds there are, the more exclusion zone water can form around those structures. So, it's most mind-blowing thing I learned in 2023. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I love that.

Vanessa Spina: Paradigm shift. It's like we need to redo all understanding of biology and physiology and medicine everything based on this. But are we going to? That the quantum sort of like the whole quantum physics, quantum biology sphere that we now have technology to learn about, but it's teaching us things that we have to rebuild everything. And that's so hard to do.

Melanie Avalon: It's kind of like the book I just finished and I'm interviewing him on Monday. It's called, What's Gotten Into You: The Story of Your Body's Atoms, from the Big Bang Through Last Night's Dinner. And it's basically, the history of molecular physics and quantum physics and atoms and everything, like I just said, from the Big Bang to you. And my takeaway from that book, which I've been listening to while putting sequins on my Taylor Swift outfit, it's a nice contrast, is that we have no idea about anything. And it's crazy, the history of people finding ideas and having theories and being discredited or looked down upon, but then they turn out to be right, but then we still don't even know. And there's so much cognitive bias that's kind of like a theme of his throughout the book, is that it's really hard to see beyond biases based on preexisting evidence or what we want to see. And I don't know, I walked away from the book feeling both very excited and empowered and also feeling like we don't know anything.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, I know the feeling. [laughs] It's like the more you know the more you realize you don't know. And it's an interesting-- it's like mixed emotions for sure. But I think it's also a sign that you are actually learning more. Like, the more humbled you become of how little we know. [chuckles] But I also love to listen to audiobooks while I'm doing stuff around the house. I love that.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it's so fun. It's so satisfying because doing stuff around the house or putting sequins on Taylor Swift outfits or cleaning is, like, satisfying in and of itself. But then listening to learning knowledge is so satisfying. I don't want to just sit there and listen. Not that it's wasted time. Not that we need to be multitasking super productive 24/7 but and I do feel really nice when I combine them. So, you get all the dopamine from the learning and the cleaning, ah, so fun.

Vanessa Spina: One thing I learned from Alison Armstrong is women get a lot of oxytocin release from repetitive hand motions. So, if you're doing some kind of fine work, like detailed work, like, needlepoint or putting sequins or knitting, you actually get a lot of oxytocin from that. So that's probably extra.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So, when I’m adding those sequins.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Okay, I should stop this train, but I'm just thinking about little things when I was little, did you do the thing with the bright, like, the rainbow? It was like stretchy rubber band things and you put them on like what's it called?

Vanessa Spina: Like a loom.

Melanie Avalon: A loom, [laughs] okay.

Vanessa Spina: A 100%.

Melanie Avalon: And you like braid it, they braid it together.

Vanessa Spina: It made me so happy.

Melanie Avalon: I was never quite sure what the purpose was of the finished product. But you made this thing, but what do you do with it? It was like just a thing. Kind of like [chuckles] one of the things I would make is when I discovered making glue chips. Did you make these? You put glue in a cup and then you take paint and swirl it in and you can make like, rainbow glue chips. But what do you do with these glue chips?

Vanessa Spina: It's just the activity, the intrinsic value of the activity itself.

Melanie Avalon: And then like, the artifact created from it. Oh, how about the spinney paper thing where you drop the paint in and it makes--

Vanessa Spina: That gives me goosebumps. It makes me so happy to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so happy. Like with a color that drops it, but then when it stops, it never quite looked as brilliant as you thought it was going to-- I didn't think it ever looked as brilliant as I thought it was going to look while in the spinning phase.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, there was one with detergent and water and color drop.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, it jumped away from each other.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, all that stuff. We had this one book and it was like activities for kids that are like sciencey. And I was always like, “Can we do it.” [laughs] But makes me happy to think about them. I got to redo all them with Luca.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. Oh, yes. Did you have the craft series of books? Craft kids or something.

Vanessa Spina: Probably. It sounds really familiar.

Melanie Avalon: That was my favorite. They had a lot of great science books as well. Shall we jump into some fasting-related topics?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: So, to start things off, Vanessa and I are so excited to talk about this. We have had multiple questions come in about Ozempic and semaglutide. So here are two of them and then we're just going to talk about the topic in general. These are both from Facebook. Sunny asked, “What do you think about Ozempic and the elk for weight loss? Effective and presumably safe or scary with three question marks.” She says, “And what are the safe alternatives that will give results if your insurance won't cover it?” And then Candice, also from Facebook, asked she said, “Hi, I love the podcast. This is potentially a strange question, but I'm wondering how semaglutide works. I am not interested in taking it. I asked because one of my parents started taking it. I looked into how it worked and based on what I know about insulin, it makes no sense to me. My parents had been doing IF and saw great results. Then he got really sick, had to stop IF to recover, and he gained a lot of weight. One of his doctors put him on semaglutide. He lost no weight in two months on it. Now he's been back doing IF for two months and is gaining weight. Did he become insulin resistant? I'm truly baffled.” Okay, I have so many thoughts about this. Vanessa, would you like to tell us a little bit about semaglutide?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. I did a whole episode on semaglutide this summer on my podcast. I was doing a bunch of research for it, but it's really fascinating to learn about the actual mechanism of action. So semaglutide itself is a peptide and it actually is sold under two main brand names. So, the one that you mentioned is Ozempic and that was actually first approved in 2017 as a treatment for type 2 diabetes. But in 2021, the FDA approved the same drug under a different brand name, which is Wegovy. Everyone talks about Ozempic, so Wegovy is the brand that basically is for weight loss, but they're both the same thing. They're both semaglutide and they're both made by a pharmaceutical company called Novo Nordisk.

So, what's really interesting about them in terms of how they work, which I think is a big question that's on everyone's mind. And so, when it comes to weight loss and weight gain, it's really about energy balance. And so, you have to create either a deficit or unbalance that energetic balance by either consuming less calories, less energy intake, or generating more energy expenditure. And the way that semaglutide works is actually reducing caloric intake because it suppresses appetite, like to the point where people have not much interest in food at all. And so, it suppresses appetite, but it also has a number of other mechanisms of action that are really fascinating. So, most people are losing weight because they're just not hungry and so they're consuming fewer calories. And so that is creating a loss of body weight/body fat, because I'm going to get into that as well, because it's not necessarily all body fat, which is the concerning-- One of the concerning parts about it, because I find it to be more so scary than anything else.

And so, there is a peptide in the body called GLP-1. It's glucagon like peptide and it's basically a glucagon like peptide receptor agonist. So, drugs either come in the category of agonist or antagonist. So, an agonist binds to the receptor on a cell in the same way that the actual molecule would in the body. So semaglutide mimics the action of glucagon like peptide 1 or GLP-1. And so, it binds to the receptors in the same way that the body actually perceives it to be GLP-1, even though it's not GLP-1. [chuckles] So that's why it is an agonist, whereas antagonist will also bind to the receptor but actually blocks the action or the mechanism. So, the reason that you can't actually just use GLP-1 is GLP-1 has a really short half-life, it's like 2 minutes, whereas semaglutide extends that half-life to about seven days. So that's why people get an injection once a week if they are taking it regularly. Their chemical formula is very, very similar. GLP-1 is a polypeptide that has either 36 or 37 amino acids with a chemical formula that's very similar to semaglutide, which is a polypeptide with 31 amino acids. But the basics of it is that semaglutide is similar enough to GLP-1 that the body recognizes it as GLP-1.

So, the way that it works is GLP-1 is actually a hormone that is released from the gastrointestinal tract or the gut when you eat. And one of the roles, just one of the roles of GLP-1 is to prompt the body to release more insulin and produce more insulin. So that actually reduces blood glucose by increasing glucose uptake in the muscles so that secretes insulin or produces more insulin. And that then pushes some of our glucose into the muscles, gets it out of the bloodstream, and it also decreases glucose production in the liver. So, it inhibits glucagon which is the antagonist hormone to insulin, because glucagon causes glycogen breakdown in the liver, which actually raises our blood glucose levels. So some of the effects that take place because of the GLP-1 secreted by the gut really reduce blood sugar spikes after eating by stimulating this insulin secretion and inhibiting the glucagon. But that's not the only thing it does.

GLP-1 also slows gastric emptying. So that's the time it takes for food to empty out of the stomach. And so, it takes longer for the food that you eat that ends up in your stomach to then go to the small intestine, where most of the food is then absorbed into the body. So, if you delay gastric emptying, you also slow down and stabilize blood glucose responses to your meal, which is another way that GLP-1 limits blood glucose spikes during that post mealtime. And because the blood sugar is going to be so stable, you're not going to have that blood glucose spike. And then the fall, which is what makes people typically feel really hungry, is when their glucose spikes and then crashes afterwards. Another thing that GLP-1 does is it actually acts on the brain. And there's some really aggressive research that is taking place right now. University of Florida researchers are currently researching that GLP-1 that is secreted by the gut is different from GLP-1 secreted by the brain. And so, they're suppressing eating via two independent circuits, which is one of the reasons it is so powerful as an appetite suppressant.

So, the main reason that people need to take semaglutide is, again, because of that short half-life of GLP-1, when it only lasts for 2 minutes as opposed to seven days. In terms of side effects, this is one of the many scary aspects of this to me. But the list of side effects is so massive. Nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, abdominal pain. It goes on and on and on, but one of the ones that's been getting a lot of headlines is this paralysis of gastric emptying. So, people are having, like, their stomachs are becoming paralyzed from using semaglutide, which doesn't surprise me because you're using something that is-- like if you think of a half-life being 2 minutes compared to seven days, it's so much more powerful than our endogenously produced GLP-1. So, it does cause a lot of weight loss. There were five big studies that were done on semaglutide called the STEP trials. And unfortunately, one of the big things that is really alarming and scary about these peptides is that people are losing a lot of weight, but it's not all fat. So, this is my Peter Attia quote he said-- I'm not sure when exactly he said this, but he said, “That almost every patient that we put on this drug semaglutide has lost muscle mass at a rate that alarms me.”

So not all of the studies, the STEP trials measured body composition, but there was one of them in particular that did. And in that one, the proportion of their weight loss was 39% from lean body mass, so almost 40%. Whereas standard weight loss, if you're doing it well, you're losing at the most 25% lean body mass. Like you do not want to be losing 39% or 40% of your lean body mass and only 60% coming from body fat. So, in the STEP 1 study, the subjects who were on the semaglutide, they lost 43% body fat and lost 57% of their lean body mass, which is absolutely massive. And then there was one other study where body composition was measured and it was called the SUSTAIN 8 trial. It had 178 people and the average proportion of lean body mass reduction was 40%. So, people are losing huge amounts of weight, but a lot of it is coming from their lean body mass. And that big part of that is muscle which you don't want to lose, especially after the age of 40. But there're only certain situations where people are morbidly obese where these kinds of rates of lean body mass loss are less of a risk because someone has that much body fat, it's more likely to come from body fat. But people who are taking this, who are not morbidly obese are going to be losing a lot of lean body mass.

So, there're a lot of studies that have come out where they compared semaglutide to a placebo group. And like I said, the amount of weight loss with semaglutide was pretty high. There was one study that was two years long, was really interesting because they did like 104 weeks and most of the weight loss happened in the first year and the second year they just maintained. So, I'm not sure what's happening, but a lot of people have concerns about what happens when they go off it and I think that's something that we have yet to see because in this study that was two years, the participants lost an average of 35 pounds in the first year. But the second year they just maintained and sometimes went up a little bit and they're still on it. So, what happens when they go off it? The chances that they're going to be able to maintain the weight loss I think are pretty slim. And so, you may end up in a situation where you lose a bunch of weight, 40% of it is lean body mass and then when you go back to your normal appetite levels, when you're no longer injecting yourself once a week, you're just going to gain fat back. And that's how people end up with really poor body composition where their body fat levels are super high, body fat percentages is really, really high.

So, there've been a lot of headlines lately about the side effects. There was one I think on CNN saying hundreds of thousands of people are having this paralysis of their digestion which is just like unimaginable to me, like your stomach is just not emptying at all. I'm not sure how severe that is, how easy it is to fix. But also, in the studies people had a lot of adverse events and most of them were gastrointestinal and really not pleasant. So that's really how it works in terms of the specific questions, in finding something that's a safe alternative. The thing that stands out the most to me about these drugs or these peptides is like well that's what a lot of the stuff that we do in terms of lifestyle and nutrition, that's what they do for me, like prioritizing protein suppresses my appetite. And it's because of the satiety hormones released from the gut and released from the brain. So doing a lot of these kinds of strategies, intermittent fasting for me, carbohydrate restriction, prioritizing protein, all of this stuff really works for me to get these same benefits at the same time teaching me healthy habits that I can maintain easily without a risk of side effects without a risk of losing tons of lean body mass. So, for me, I don't know of any pharmaceutical safe alternatives, but I think that's what we try to talk about a lot on this podcast is the safe alternatives that are more lifestyle, nutrition oriented that I think over the long term are going to be much more beneficial.

And as far as Candice, when you were asking about your family member who did not lose any weight in two months on semaglutide and then going back to intermittent fasting and gaining weight, potentially becoming insulin resistant in terms of the mechanisms, you know semaglutide is pushing out more insulin and causing the body to produce more insulin. So, it's possible that some, like the basal insulin levels could have been raised through going on it. I'm surprised that he didn't lose any weight. But a lot of people, like, some people lose a ton of weight and some people don't. So, it kind of seems to be very dependent on the person. It could have given him potentially some kind of higher basal insulin resistance or sorry, higher basal insulin, which can be measured by fasting insulin. So, you could have his fasting insulin tested to see what that's at because that might help shed some light on it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. Awesome. Okay, thank you for all of that information. I love talking about all of this. I'll put a link in the show notes and it's so interesting because I didn't realize the name. You said the company was Nordisk, right?

Vanessa Spina: Novo Nordisk.

Melanie Avalon: Because I'll put a link into the show notes. There's a January 2023 review published in Diabetes, Obesity, and Metabolism called Semaglutide for the treatment of overweight and obesity: A review and it provides an overview of the I think now there's actually been 8 STEP trials on semaglutide. And what's funny, because that was the first thing I read when I sat down to research this. And reading it, I was like, “Oh, wow, this is really impressive,” [chuckles] because it talks about the weight loss throughout the trials and compared to placebo and the beneficial effects on blood sugar and potentially even cardiovascular benefits, then it really minimizes the side effects. I think basically it says that around 75% have GI side effects, but that few discontinue the treatment. The numbers it gives across the different trials, I mean, they're losing around 14.9% to 17.4% weight loss compared to the placebo groups, which is really low, anywhere from like, 0.8% up to 4.5%.

I didn't realize this when reading it, but I scrolled down to the bottom after you said the name of the company. It says that basically it was funded by Novo Nordisk. So, like, oh, that makes sense [laughs] that it's the company creating these drugs that is funding this research. Something I wanted to comment on, for Candice's question about the insulin issue and Vanessa was touching on this a little bit. I was also just like, at the beginning, confused about this because we talk so much about how we want to reduce insulin release and so much of our diet and our lifestyle and fasting is all about minimizing insulin release. So how can something a glucagon like peptide 1, a GLP-1, a hormone that is increasing insulin release, how is that a potentially beneficial thing for weight loss? And what's really interesting about the context of this and Vanessa was talking about this, but just to dive a little deeper into it, that insulin glucagon connection.

Diving into this, I'm actually thinking it's kind of crazy. We don't talk about glucagon more like we're so focused on insulin. But the primary issue of hyperglycemia, so high blood sugar in diabetes, it's not from well, technically, way down the line, it's from the food you ate, but it's not from the food you just ate. It's from the liver producing it. That's the majority of the burden of the blood sugar. So, glucagon releasing blood sugar is the, I don't want to say the primary issue, but it is a huge issue. And there's been even rodent trials where they have inhibited the rodent's ability to produce glucagon in diabetic rodents, not change their insulin levels, and it normalizes their diabetes. So, the role of glucagon is huge. And so, if you have glucagon releasing blood sugar and then insulin trying to keep it down, if you have that battle going on 24/7, A, it's very exhausting for your pancreas and your insulin. And B, it creates a state where you're constantly having to release insulin to mitigate your high resting blood sugar levels in the fasted state as well as after you're eating.

And what's really, really interesting about GLP-1, peptides, hormones, is that the effect on glucagon, so they reduce glucagon, which is creating this issue of high fasted blood sugars. The effect on insulin is glucose dependent, so they don't cause the pancreas to release insulin in the fasted state. It's from when the body is metabolizing glucose. So basically, the benefit of GLP-1 is it's actually creating helping your body. I'm not saying this as an advertisement for semaglutide, but GLP-1, which semaglutide is acting like is helping create the ideal state of insulin and glucagon in your body. It's helping create a state where you're not releasing blood sugar all the time, not having high fasting blood sugar. And then you are releasing insulin when you need it, when you're eating carbs and sugar, and you're able to properly store that and it increases insulin sensitivity. So, I think that can help explain why it's actually helpful with the insulin release. There's like some context to it. And then what's interesting as well about the muscle piece is because I read an article also by Peter Attia, I was looking at it again, I think it was-- so you said you listened to him talk about that on a podcast, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It was from a podcast I think or from an article that he wrote about a podcast, maybe transcript.

Melanie Avalon: I think that's, yeah, because I was reading that article as well because he was talking about that 8 trial that you mentioned.

Vanessa Spina: SUSTAIN 8. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. The SUSTAIN 8. He also mentioned. I find this really interesting because I agree that the muscle loss is very scary. I have two thoughts to complicate it further because I think okay, step back. I think the majority of people, and I don't know this as a fact, but I would assume the majority of people, a majority of people going on semaglutide for weight loss on their own rogue or with the doctor, they might not be prioritizing protein, they might just be taking it and not eating. So, [chuckles] they’re just like losing weight, fat and muscle. What's really interesting is apparently, despite those shockingly high muscle losses that were seen in the STEP trials in these STEP 1 patients, even though they lost a ton, they actually increased their lean mass to body fat mass proportion by 3%. And in the SUSTAIN 8, they increased their lean mass to fat mass proportion ratio by 1%. So, while it was a shocking amount of weight loss and muscle loss, their body composition was actually slightly better in the muscle to fat ratio.

That said and this is what Peter talks about in his article, he talks about how maybe that muscle loss is something that I don't want to say is okay, but people who are severely obese or overweight, they can afford it if they maintain muscle thereafter. But for people who are-- so many people are like normal weight and using this or they're only a little bit overweight and they're trying to use this to lose weight. And I just think the muscle loss is a big concern and especially if you're not prioritizing maintaining muscle. I would be so curious. I would love to see studies on semaglutide in people on a very high protein diet. So, people who are like and who are resistant training-- I'd be really curious if they experience the muscle loss or not. I don't know if we have studies on that. So, stepping back from all of it and I didn't know I'm so glad you talked about that. I did not know that, Vanessa, about the half-life and the long-term effects, you were talking about people like the stomach paralysis. That's terrifying. When I first learned about semaglutide and I learned that it makes your stomach, like, delays gastric emptying, I mean, I have such a fear of constipation. I was like, “Nope.” I was like, “You cannot pay me to put that in my body.” That is terrifying to me. So, to step back from all of it, GLP-1 as a natural substance, that's so interesting Vanessa, about the 2 minutes, you said 2 minutes is what the normal half-life is compared to seven days.

Vanessa Spina: So short. [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: That's concerning that you're-- yeah, 2 minutes versus seven days.

Vanessa Spina: But that's the whole point, like you said, is the people who are taking semaglutide are the people who are not prioritizing protein and that's probably why they're struggling and they're probably not doing resistance training and so they are the most at risk for that muscle loss. And again, if you're like morbidly obese, it's probably worth it and you'll probably be fine because like you said those ratios will even out and a lot of the people in those studies were obese. But if you're taking it and you're taking it as like a vanity drug or something and you are not morbidly obese, that also puts you at a higher risk for losing more lean mass, right?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. I really personally would only take it, I think, if I was obese and if I did not have a fear of constipation and if I was hardcore prioritizing protein and resistance training during that weight loss phase. I just think that's so, so important. So many people are just trying to take it off label, which is legal. Doctors can prescribe it for weight loss, it's just considered off label. It's only approved for-- Vanessa mentioned the different things it's approved for. And even with the weight loss one that's approved, you actually have to technically have another condition, another metabolic issue as well alongside it or cardiovascular issue. But the thing is, a lot of people who are very obese probably have metabolic syndrome, so they probably do have one of the criteria.

Vanessa Spina: One of the weird things about it that I've been hearing lately is that it's popping up in malls. And even there was one person who said that their nail salon or it was either nail salon or hair salon is now offering it. So, I think it's just like people are seeing that it's selling so well. It's so popular that there's probably going to be those kinds of unregulated situations showing up. It's the same thing as maybe like getting Botox, like where you get your nails done or whatever. You definitely would want to see a physician about it or your physician who can track you and make sure that it's something that's potentially safe for you. But the side effects of it are so scary to me. I would not let anyone in my family or friends go on it because the risk of your stomach becoming paralyzed. I mean, I don't have anyone right now in my family who's morbidly obese.

You probably have to weigh the risks if that's like your situation and if you feel like you've tried everything and nothing has worked for you. I just think that there are so many healthy alternative ways of getting a lot of the benefits of appetite suppression, for example, that don't have the risk of these side effects and ultimately are more long term. Like, the results will be more long term. Because my biggest concern is what is going to happen to these people when they stop taking it, if you have to take it for a whole year after just to maintain, what's going to happen when they stop injecting themselves every week or do they have to do it for the rest of their lives?

Melanie Avalon: Well, to that point, kind of like with Candice's question, because it sounds like her dad was doing IF, he was doing well, he got sick, he had to stop IF and he gained weight, so probably stopping the IF is the reason he gained weight, because the IF was working with him to either maintain or lose weight. So, then he goes on semaglutide. It sounds like then he started maintaining his weight. He didn't lose weight, but he wasn't gaining. And so, it sounds like maybe semaglutide was keeping him from gaining weight, and then he stopped the semaglutide goes back on IF and is gaining weight. It could be multifactorial. It could be a long-term effect, like Vanessa was saying earlier and just now. Now he's no longer on this drug and might be having residual side effects that have made it worse than before being on it. And now he's gaining weight even though he's doing IF. So I will say and I agree completely with Vanessa that the lifestyle way is how I would go this and actually so is there a natural compound that increases GLP-1 naturally in your body? Yes.

So, berberine, which I have a berberine by AvalonX and I am obsessed with my berberine. So, it's a plant alkaloid. There're a lot of studies on it for its beneficial effects on blood sugar control, glucose metabolism, its effects on insulin and the mitochondria and even AMPK. And there are quite a few studies showing that it increases GLP-1 in the intestines and has positive effects on glucose metabolism. And that's been theorized that might be one of the ways that it works so well for diabetes and blood sugar control. And then it has a lot of benefits beyond that for blood sugar control but it does directly affect GLP-1. So, what I would suggest, I think is you can take something like berberine. So Berberine is not going to make you lose weight because it's not going to have that effect of semaglutide where you're just not eating and your stomach is paralyzed. But if you want to get these GLP-1 enhancing benefits, you could take something like berberine and then use your dietary approach and lifestyle to address the natural calorie restriction and reduced appetite, like fasting.

So fasting will do that on a high protein diet, a whole foods-based diet, that's what I would do. And that's completely sustainable. And berberine is going to have benefits and it's been used for thousands and thousands of years in traditional Chinese medicine and ayurvedic medicine. So that's what I would personally do. That would be my semaglutide hack. Again, it's not going to wipe out your appetite and make you stop eating but you will get some of that GLP-1 enhancing effect.

Vanessa Spina: I love that. [chuckles] It is awesome. Another one that does it is protein. So, one of the reasons consuming protein is so satiating is when you consume dietary protein, you get GLP-1 secreted from the gut. You get CCK, you get peptide YY and all of these are secreted in the gut, as we talked about and they diminish and suppress appetite and they also decrease ghrelin levels or the gremlin. My friend, Dr. John Lemanski always calls it the gremlin hormone. The ghrelin which is the hunger hormone, you know, just prioritizing protein can also be a semaglutide hack, maybe with some berberine together [chuckles] too, but also intermittent fasting, fasting doing-- I know you eat more of a higher carb diet but there're a lot of benefits to doing restricted carbohydrate. It's one option for people that does really suppress hunger with the ketones. There're just so many ways that you can get the benefits that are very similar to these peptides without having to take on all the risks.

Melanie Avalon: Sounds like we're on the same page.

Vanessa Spina: Love the questions. I'm so glad we got to talk about this, it's so topical right now.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. And if listeners would like to get my berberine, they can go to avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off. You can get a 20% off code if you text AVALONX to 877-861-8318. Okay. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Make sure to sign up for Tone Protein at [laughs] toneprotein.com as well.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Which by the time this comes out, will that be?

Vanessa Spina: It should be out, yes. So, if you are signed up at Tone Protein, you will get the launch discount for it. Yeah, it should be out and available by then. So that's toneprotein.com.

Melanie Avalon: Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. If listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. The show notes will have links to everything that we talked about and a transcript. That is at ifpodcast.com/episode346. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast, I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: I had so much fun with you and can't wait to record more next week.

Melanie Avalon: Me too. This was so fun. I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

Thank you so much for listening to The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team, administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, transcripts by SpeechDocs, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re-composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

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Nov 26

Episode 345: Fasted Marathons, Stress Resilience, Finding Happiness, Decluttering, Nesting, Being Overwhelmed By Lifestyle Changes, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #226 - Matthew Lederman

Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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SHOW NOTES

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TRANSCRIPT

Melanie Avalon: Welcome to Episode 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What When Wine and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my cohost, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone LUX Red Light Therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, everybody and welcome. This is Episode number 345 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina.

Vanessa Spina: Hello, everyone.

Melanie Avalon: I have a huge question for you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina: Oh.

Melanie Avalon: I don't think I've asked you this before.

Vanessa Spina: Okay.

Melanie Avalon: Let me know if I have.

Vanessa Spina: Okay. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Are you still packed or are you still unpacked?

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'm totally unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I haven't asked you. Aren't those the same thing?

Vanessa Spina: You're talking about our luggage?

Melanie Avalon: Okay, so this is like a thing in my family. I know I've talked about this on the show before, probably with Cynthia or Gin. We had literally, like, an hour-long conversation one dinner, because somebody was like, “Are you still packed?” And then somebody was like, “No, are you still unpacked?” And they were like, mind blown moment. It's like the same thing, but only if you include the word still. If you say, “Are you packed? Are you unpacked?” Those are different. But if you say, “Are you still packed? Are you still unpacked?” It's the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. So, I am officially unpacked.

Melanie Avalon: You're unpacked. So, you are not still unpacked. And you are not still packed.

Vanessa Spina: Right.

Melanie Avalon: This really bothers me. It really bothers. It bothers me that including the word still makes them the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Right. Right, right.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, that's my word moment for the morning. Okay, so your items are not in your suitcase anymore.

Vanessa Spina: They're all washed, folded, put away, and yeah, I need to do it when I get home. It's like if we have a party or something, I can't go to bed until everything is clean. [chuckles] I just don't want to wake up to a mess or a packed suitcase. Just get it done. No matter what it takes, [laughs] you have to stay up late.

Melanie Avalon: I actually love that moment, like when you get back and you're taking all this stuff out and it takes so much longer than I think it will, as does packing.

Vanessa Spina: It takes so long. It really takes a long time because I figured out it's the micro decisions that you have to make. Because I was like, for years I was like, “Why do I hate packing so much?” And I'm like, “It's because I have to make like 1000 micro decisions of what to take.” And every single thing you put in your suitcase is a micro decision that you're making that you may wear that and then everything you're not taking is also like a micro decision. So, it's like you get decision fatigue. It's just more the mental aspect. But I did something amazing [chuckles] that changed my life after we got back from Denver. We got back and I was like, I've been wanting to do this for so long. And I finally did it and it just leveled up my life so much. So, we got back and I was like, Pete, everything we took to Denver is all the stuff that I like and I wear and everything for summer. Because the winter stuff is like away. Everything that I did not pack, that's in my drawers and in my closet is just there. I don't like--

Melanie Avalon: Did you throw it away?

Vanessa Spina: No, but I put it all in a suitcase. Some of it, I try to donate clothes on a regular basis to charitable causes and I love doing that. But I was like, sometimes you're not fully ready to let it go. But I was like, “Okay, so I'm just going to put it all in a suitcase.” And all the stuff that I wasn't quite ready to, I just put it in a suitcase and I cleared out my drawers. So now when I open my drawers, I just have the stuff that I love. Every time I look in the closet, I just have the stuff that I love and that I wear. And so, when we packed for this trip, it was like 100 times easier because I didn't have to make all those micro decisions. I just took everything in my drawer [laughs] and put it in the suitcase and then took everything out and put it back in there. Life changing. I swear, the last three months have been so much easier to just get dressed and do things because I'm not wading through the drawers, through all the other stuff to find what I want. When I open the drawer, it's just what I want. It's just like mind blowing. But it was amazing and I want to do it again for winter stuff.

Melanie Avalon: Okay, this is crazy. I have a follow-up question and I have a very similar system I've implemented. Question, so this suitcase now that's full of these clothes that you don't wear, are you going to take that suitcase to goodwill or do you have goodwill?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. So, we basically give it to our church here that helps mostly migrants and victims of sex trafficking. So, it's great because it's like all women's clothes. And what I do is I know the stuff that I want to get rid of right away. But sometimes you're not ready to let go of something because it has, like, sentimental value. If you had it for a long time or you're just like, I might wear this sometimes. So that's the stuff that I put in the suitcase. And then if I don't think about it or use it, like, usually six months or a year later, I open it up again, and then I look through if there's a couple of things that I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, I haven't seen this in so long. I can't wait to wear it.” I'll wear it again. But mostly everything is like, no, it's in there for a reason. I purchased it and I kept it in my closet or my drawers out of guilt because I spent money on it.

So, I felt like I had to keep it. But I don't actually wear it. I don't want to wear it. It's been in the suitcase for a year, so now it's ready to go to the final stage, which is donation. So, I think it just helps with that stuff that you're just not fully ready to let go of. But I'm ruthless. Usually when it comes to clothes, I'm like, I haven't worn that in six months to a year. It's gone. I know that's not as easy for everyone. Like, Pete is with clothes he has a really hard time getting rid of stuff, so I kind of have to do it sometimes for him. But I find that that intermediate step can help if you're struggling to just let go of things, especially if they have some kind of emotional value or something.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. We have such a similar system. So, one I have contemplated doing the thing you mentioned where you get back and you had packed the stuff you really loved, but I can't do that. I'm not at that point. So, kudos to you. I do something very similar, which is, I have a big black trash bag. Actually, I have a hamper. Oh, I use a hamper. Okay, so I have a hamper in my closet and it's the throwaway hamper. And then I have a trash bag in it and I try to every day-- Did I tell you this? Do my throw something away mantra.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's a great way to do it.

Melanie Avalon: I say in my head, “Throw something away every day. Throw something away every day.” And then I walk around the apartment, and I try to take one piece of clothing and put it into the bag, and I try to actually just throw something else away into the trash, something from the apartment, unless it's donatable. And then I wait until that fills up that hamper, and then I take the bag to goodwill, and I do the same thing you did, where it's like, if I haven't thought about. If I think about it and I try to find it, I can go dig through and find it, but I haven't done that yet. And then also something you can tell yourself is like, “Okay, let's say that there's one outfit that you regret throwing away. It's so worth it to regret that one outfit and throw away all that other stuff.” It's just worth it because it feels so good. Like you said to, “Ooh, it feels nice.”

Vanessa Spina: I think I've had one moment where I was like, “Oh, I missed that thing that I donated or got rid of,” but it's like one out of so many other things. Like you said, “It's just not worth it.” And it feels amazing to declutter. I try to be as minimalist as possible. It's getting more challenging [chuckles] as we expand our family, but I still try to be as minimalist as possible. And it is such a game changing thing, like, for your mental performance, for your productivity, and just for how good it feels. I think one of the reasons we feel so good when we're at a hotel is because you have such few things. Like, you just have the essentials and it feels so good. And as women, we in particular can't relax unless our space is organized and clean, or else everything talks to us. Like, the pillow talks to us, the blanket, the throws. like, straighten me, pick me up. Everything talks to us. [laughs] So when you're in an empty room or a really minimalist or clean organized room, you can just fully focus and nothing talks to you and all the noise is gone I find.

Melanie Avalon: It's so true. I was reading a study about that, actually, because I've noticed that if I get really stressed or overwhelmed with work, I will have to like-- everything has to be organized all of a sudden. And it's not because I'm procrastinating. It's because I literally, all of a sudden, cannot handle things not being straightened up. And there's some, wait, is that nesting as well also? I feel like they gave some bird mother term to it, which the other day, Vanessa texted me. She was like, “I have to come back and nest.” And I was like, “What is that?” [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Because there was a little nest emoji with, like, three blue eggs, like the Robin eggs.

Melanie Avalon: I’ve never seen that emoji before. [laughs] It's got, like, the little blue egg in it.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] Yeah. I was like, the holidays, our baby moon has been incredible, beautiful, like, everything I wanted. But I'm feeling restless, like, I need to go home and nest, and that is basically, like, I need to get our space ready.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, I think that is maybe the same thing.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It happens usually in the, like, specially, in the third trimester, which I'm now in, where you're like a bird, like, mama bird fluttering its wings around. You're just like, “I need to make this place clean.” Suddenly, everything has to be clean, organized, and you have to get everything ready. Like, the nursery, everything becomes priority number one. It was actually taking away from my enjoyment being away, because I was like, “I need to be home and fixing stuff.” And I was talking to Pete about it because I need to nest. He was like, “Okay, [laughs] I'm really enjoying being here, but I need to be home now.” So, our biological instincts are really powerful and amazing, but, yeah, that's the nesting.

Melanie Avalon: Is it, like an ongoing thing, the nesting experience? Like, are you nesting for a month until the baby comes?

Vanessa Spina: It's pretty much going to be from now until baby comes. And it's been interesting having other girlfriends go through it too and being pregnant at the same time as other friends, because we'll be going for a walk and getting coffee and talking, and they're like, “My apartment is so dirty. [laughs] I need to clean everything.” And it's just like this primal urge that everything needs to be clean. Like you find yourself, I was cleaning when you open the freezer and on the freezer door, there's like, this plastic whatever, and then there's, like, these folds. I was cleaning inside the folds because [laughs] I was like, “They're not clean enough.” It's another level of clean freaking or whatever.

Melanie Avalon: I do think they use the word nest in that study. I read about when you're stressed and you have to clean--

Vanessa Spina: Like a stressed bird. Just like, I need to make my nest. Yeah. That's so funny. I love that you read a study on it.

Melanie Avalon: I did. I was also reading, I think, yesterday about cowbirds. Are you familiar with these?

Vanessa Spina: No.

Melanie Avalon: Apparently. Where was I reading this? I think it was actually talking something about narcissism. Apparently, these birds, they know that other birds assume that the eggs in their nest are their own, so they lay their eggs in other birds’ nests. They, like, outsource that [laughs] because they're like, they’ll deal. [laughs] They'll assume. I do think it was, like, something about narcissism and we literally-- Oh, yeah. I think it was in Peter Attia? Was it in Peter Attia’s book? I don't know. I'm all over the place. It was something about how we're so consumed and we can only see our own perspective of the world. And cowbirds know this. I don't know if they actually think about this when they're laying the eggs, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina: That's really funny. So, they outsource it that the other bird will raise it because it's so preoccupied with itself that it doesn't realize it.

Melanie Avalon: Wow. So much we can learn from the animal kingdom.

Vanessa Spina: That's fascinating. That's really fascinating.

Melanie Avalon: I know. One last little thing. Okay, so you've been, like, crazily cleaning for hours. Do you know what I've been doing for hours?

Vanessa Spina: What?

Melanie Avalon: This will be way-- by the time this comes out, this will be way in the past, but the Taylor Swift Eras movie is coming out.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait too.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, you're seeing it.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I mean when I can, I'd love to. Yeah. I didn't go to the concert, so for me, it's going to be like.

Melanie Avalon: Is it going to come out in Prague?

Vanessa Spina: I think so.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, my goodness.

Vanessa Spina: Wait, is it going to theaters first? I just assumed it was going to be on Netflix.

Melanie Avalon: Oh. No, no, no, this is a theater experience.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I'll have to go to that.

Melanie Avalon: Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina: I'm sure it'll come out here like every movie comes out here, just like it does in North America.

Melanie Avalon: Well, it comes out this weekend.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, okay. I got to find out when it's coming out.

Melanie Avalon: So, I counted up how many hours I've spent. I think I've spent 10 hours talking about things that you think, like, the unpacking will not take that long. I was like, “Oh, it will not take that long to individually glue sequins to my Taylor Swift bodysuit, incorrect assumption.” I have spent about 10 hours gluing sequins to my outfit while listening to audiobooks prepping the show. It's epic, my costume.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I can't wait to see a picture.

Melanie Avalon: I'm going to dress up. I'm going to be T Swift in the flesh. So, yes. I love projects like crafting. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Me too.

Melanie Avalon: It's therapeutic.

Vanessa Spina: I love Michaels. I wish that's the one thing actually they don't have here. Makes me sad.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, man or Hobby Lobby.

Vanessa Spina: They don't have it here? No. I used to go there a lot. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Although I went to Michaels, and I was like, “I need sequins.” And he was like, “What are sequins?” And I was like, “Am I at Hobby Lobby? Where am I?”

Vanessa Spina: Pretty sure they have, like, an aisle of sequins.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I had to go rogue and find them myself. I wish you were here. We could go together.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that would be amazing. That would seriously be amazing. I'm trying to figure out a Halloween costume, because we have a Halloween party coming up, and I have not thought about it at all.

Melanie Avalon: Could be Taylor Swift.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] I think I need to find something coordinated for Luca and maybe something that's good for pregnancy. You know fun like--

Melanie Avalon: What if you're, like, Humpty Dumpty?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I was saying pumpkin. A pumpkin is, like, the cutest baby costume ever. I was like, I think Lucas a little bit too big now, so maybe he could be a two-two. You know, he really likes Thomas, Thomas the Tank Engine and all that. Like, maybe he could be a Thomas. But, yeah, I'm thinking I got to find something that unifies-- a unifying theme and I don't have time for that right now. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: You can outsource that to me. I'll think about it for you and then I'll report back.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I think I was telling you we wanted to do last year like Prince Charming.

Melanie Avalon: What if you do Alice in Wonderland?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: There're so many characters in that.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. You know, it's so much easier for that kind of stuff in North America because you can just go to any costume store, and they'll have a family set or, like, a Target or something. But here it's more like Amazon. So, yeah, maybe this weekend I'll spend some time on it [laughs] if my nesting gives me a break from everything else.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could do something with the nesting. Maybe you could be a bird.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah.

Melanie Avalon: Maybe you could all be birds. Different, different birds.

Vanessa Spina: He would love that. Oh, my gosh. He loves birds.

Melanie Avalon: You could be a flamingo, like, all pink.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. I need to find something funny that has a big belly.

Melanie Avalon: A hummingbird. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait what's a real-- A peacock, a peacock.

Vanessa Spina: I love how excited you are.

Melanie Avalon: Then you could do, like, rainbow. Oh, wait, but they're male so.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, Pete would have to be peacock. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Pete can be the peacock. You could be the flamingo. Luca can be a penguin.

Vanessa Spina: We'll workshop it.

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: Oh, okay. Shall we answer some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina: Yes, I would love to.

Melanie Avalon: Okay. To start things off, this is actually some feedback I got on Instagram. So, I asked her if I could include it because I thought it was just such a lovely little story. So, this was from Lauren. She messaged me and she said that she did her first half fasted marathon. She said, “Just wanted to say thank you for all the education because it gave me the confidence to trust my intuition and go for it. I used to have a terrible relationship with food and hate my body. Now I have a great relationship with food and love what it can do. I'm so happy with a sub two time. It was really interesting feeling my body switch into ketosis around Mile Nine as so many other runners started to flag. Fasting is such a superpower. We need everyone to know.” Then she put the little emoji with the heart eyes and she said, “You are a legend” with a little smiley face, XOX.

So, thank you so much for reporting back. Lauren. First of all, I'm thrilled that you have had that mindset shift surrounding your relationship with food. And it's really exciting because you know, I'm not a marathon runner. I really like hearing from listeners who are implementing fasting with athletic endeavors like that and how it goes and it's so cool about. that really must feel like a superpower to switch into ketosis when people are starting to hit the wall. Any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I'm always telling people that if you're doing, usually long-distance running, that is the perfect exercise for being fat fueled because it is 60% to 70% of your VO2 max. You can just be fueled from fat. And I have so many athletes who are out there just killing it, reporting back to me that they're doing keto and people just don't believe them and they're setting new records. They're using it as such a competitive edge and people call it bonking when you hit the wall and it's because you run out of glycogen. But if you're running off of fat, then you're never going to hit that wall. It's just the perfect exercise for that, as long as you stay well hydrated using electrolytes like LMNT or something, because you definitely want to maintain your hydration and all that.

But yeah, that's so cool that you actually felt your body switching into ketosis and other people were starting to flag. It happened to me once with Pete and my father-in-law, we were on this crazy hike that he said was only going to be an hour or two and it was like four hours and it was in Utah and it was so hot. No one else was around because were like insane to be doing this. And at the end they started slowing down. But I had LMNT with me and I just ate protein when we had our snack and I had LMNT and I was like busting it out of there. I was like, [chuckles] I couldn't even see them anymore. I was going so fast and they both were like just dying in the heat. And my father-in-law still talks about that hike. He's like, “I don't understand what was going on, but you were gone, you were like turbo mode and were about to pass out.” [laughs] So, yeah, it's being fat fueled. It's amazing. It is a superpower.

Melanie Avalon: It is a superpower. And that sounds so miserable. Oh, my goodness. Which actually is going to relate to my answer for the next question. Have you done a marathon or a half marathon?

Vanessa Spina: It's not my thing. No.

Melanie Avalon: Not my thing either.

Vanessa Spina: I'm like, “I'll cheer you on and everything from the sidelines.”

Melanie Avalon: I won't even cheer you on. [laughs] Does that require sitting outside [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Standing for a long time? Yeah. I have a really good friend whose husband does them a lot. So, I'm like, “Go, Cody, you're killing it.” But I just have no interest at all, at all, negative interest. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: I'll throw the like welcome, the celebration party.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Nice.

Melanie Avalon: Indoors at the end.

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. It's just not appealing for me, but I know it is appealing to lots of people.

Melanie Avalon: And like I said, it relates to my answer for the next question, which I'll let you read it, but I'll set it up so that the context is I had asked for questions in the Facebook group IF Biohackers for Terry Wahls. Dr. Terry Wahls, who I interviewed this past week, actually, I think, or the week before. She is so great. I love her. She's just so inspiring, because you've interviewed her, right?

Vanessa Spina: Yes. So inspiring.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So definitely listeners check that out. I think it's-- yeah, it should have already aired by now. She almost started crying on the show. It was very, very touching when she was telling her story. So, yes, we talked all about her studies on diet, including fasting for multiple sclerosis specifically, but it applies to autoimmune conditions as well. So, this question we did not get to and I thought it was a good question for our show, actually. So, would you like to read it?

Vanessa Spina: I would love to. So, Annie from Facebook asks, “How can we live a “normal life” when we are always inside an expensive bubble full of products and denials that most take for granted? Don't eat this or that. Not that water. Oh, wait. Yes, that water, but not too much. No Wi-Fi, no gluten, no fortified anything? No, no, no and take tons of supplements and expensive. Doctors and treatments yet we are expected to live a stress-free life this way. So, we just accept and try. But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?”

Melanie Avalon: Okay. I loved this question also, I just want to say, Vanessa, I like how you read question.

Vanessa Spina: Aw. [laughs]

Melanie Avalon: Because you read that with character. I felt like Annie was here with us. [laughs]

Vanessa Spina: Oh, that's awesome. I try add some dramatic flair.

Melanie Avalon: It was good. I liked it. I feel like it's your theater background coming out.

Vanessa Spina: I know. I feel like, I'm auditioning or something--

[laughter]

Melanie Avalon: We are like reading sides here constantly. [laughter ]It's interesting because it's, like, the blend because you don't want to go full out character mode you know but you tend-- [laughter] I literally think about this when I'm reading questions. I'm like, “You got to be objective and narrator, but also have some character. You've nailed it.” You've got the talent.

Vanessa Spina: Did I get the part? [chuckles]

Melanie Avalon: You got the part. [laughter]

Vanessa Spina: Can't wait to tell my mom.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, so good. Okay. I can't, I'm going to start crying again from laughing. Thank you for the question, Annie. I have so many thoughts about this. I know this is something I know I've experienced this. I know so many people experience this. And Annie was talking about it in relation to autoimmune conditions, but it's also something I just feel a lot of people in the health sphere, people on diets, even people doing fasting, like, people who are making choices about what they like, she said, about what they do or don't eat, supplements, foods, doctors, treatments, a lot of people are constantly making these decisions for their life and it can feel restrictive. And then, in addition, some people come from a baseline of feeling great without doing or feeling okay at least without doing this, and then they do this and they just feel better, whereas some people feel really awful if they don't do these things. And then doing this helps them feel better.

So, there're layers of, I think, a feeling of necessity surrounding it. I'll start with what she said at the end, which is, “But does anybody really get better and happy in this bubble?" So, I would encourage you, Annie, to think about what you mean by happiness. First of all, what you mean by happiness and where that happiness comes from and what that means. Because if happiness, this is all just my thoughts, my esoteric thoughts, but to me happiness is a transitory temporal state of feelings that can come and go and that's okay. And if that's the end goal, if happiness is the end goal, you're probably not going to find it, because it's not something-- it really, really does matter on how you define it though. It's a lot of semantics, actually yesterday I interviewed the creators of the Forks Over Knives series, like documentary, and then all the books that go with it, they have a new book called Wellness to Wonderful, which is really good. It's about a full lifestyle approach to health and wellness. We actually talked about this because their barometer is, is life wonderful? And we talked about the difference between wonderful versus happiness and how feeling like your life is wonderful and you are content and satisfied is different than like a transitory state of happiness.

First of all, I contemplate what you mean by happy and where is that found and how it relates to what we were talking about a second ago with Vanessa, is stress and happiness and suffering and pain, and what you enjoy and what you don't enjoy is so relative. So, like, racing literally sounds like the most awful experience to me. Like, you could not pay me. And like I said, even just being outside watching people race is not pleasant to me. Some people love it. They love it. What that says to me or something like traffic. There are some people, like my mom, she cannot stand traffic. Like when we are in traffic, she just is so upset. Whereas when I'm in traffic, I'm like, “Oh, this is great. I can listen to more podcasts.” I really don't mind it. I think it's like a fun time. So, I think the point of that is that literally, any situation that you're in, somebody could enjoy it and somebody could not. So, any experience you're in is relative. You decide how it affects you on a deeper emotional level, and it's completely okay to have. And we talked about this yesterday in the interview, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. I think the show notes for it are going to be melanieavalon.com/wellnesstowonderful probably.

So, we talked about how even feelings, we'll say, like, negative feelings and positive feelings, but really, they're just pleasant and unpleasant. Like, there's no good or bad or right or wrong. They just are. Or it's like one of my favorite authors or I actually really recommend reading Amy Johnson's book Just a thought. It's so cute. It's like this really small little book. It's super short. It has an endorsement from me in it, which is very exciting, right alongside, like, Deepak Chopra. But in that book, she talks about the weather and how there's the sky and how you are the sky and the weather is your experiences and what you're going through. And the weather can be so many different things and it can be crazy and it can be, “bad, like a thunderstorm or it can be a clear sky, but either way, there's actually a clear sky behind that.” Like, you don't change. So, defining yourself and your happiness by your experiences is not sustainable for lifetime satisfaction. And I know that's a lot of words. So, it's like, “How do you do this?” I mean that’s were like, I find so much value in seeing a therapist every week, reading books about this. A lot of people benefit from meditation, prayer.

So, I would try to have a sort of mindset shift surrounding all of that. And then as far as the actual things you're doing, like feeling like you have to-- like Vanessa was so eloquently reading with a slight inflection of character, you know, don't drink this water, drink a little bit of this water, except maybe not, like all of that stuff. Remember that, that is your choice, I think having agency in your own life is one of the most empowering things ever. I'm all about-- And I'm not saying that she's doing this, but I think we live in an epidemic of victimhood today where we think we're a victim of everything, of our own circumstances, of the world, when really, it's really empowering to have agency. So, all these choices that you're making, if you can reframe them as they are, I mean, presumably that's why you're making them. Hopefully, you are making the choices that help make you feel better and that is your choice.

And you actually don't have to do any of them. I think that's freeing to know, like, you are the person in control here. You're choosing-- you don't have to do anything. You are choosing to do things because they make you feel better. And even for me, because if you look at the way I eat and the things I do, it looks really restrictive. I am so happy doing it. It makes me so happy to use that word, which has problematic semantics surrounding it. But I feel really good in the dietary choices that I make because I have found the foods that I love. I think that's important. Making sure that within this paradigm of these gluten, not gluten foods you can and can't eat, finding the foods that you really do love, I think that's really important because you can definitely do that. There are delicious foods and your tastebuds will change. So, I think paying attention to that, defining a diet that you do love and telling yourself that you have agency, making those decisions and that it's okay to not feel okay. Like, that's okay.

And it's also okay if you do want to have a day where you're just like, want to lament. And I mean, I don't want to say like a pity party, but that's okay too, if you want to have those moments as well have those moments. But hopefully the ongoing theme can be one of agency and empowerment. And for the question of, does anybody ever really get better? Again, I think it's a matter of what do we mean by better? Because everybody's always on a spectrum of health. So, you can monitor that with how you’re reacting to things and your health markers and all of that. But that's always going to be the spectrum. So, I wouldn't even make that the end goal. I would really work on the mental and the emotional wellness behind it. That was very long. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: I have so many thoughts on this. [chuckles] The first one, I mean, just as a blanket overview is like, if doing this stuff doesn't make you happy and doesn't lower your stress, makes you more stressed, then I think that's a big indicator. Whereas you and I, I talk to you most days, like every day, you're always happy. I feel like I'm always happy too because it does make us happy. It's not like you're happy one day and another day you're like, really--you're always happy when I talk to you. I feel like I am too. This lifestyle that we've chosen and following the science and biohacking and everything, for me it has tremendously improved my overall state. And it's given me access to be able to work on the other stuff, the other deeper stuff, like doing the deeper work. One of my favorite quotes is, I don't know if I'm going to say it properly, but it's sort of like, “If you do the hard stuff, then life gets really easy whereas if you take the easy way out, then life is always hard.”

Melanie Avalon: Oh, that's a good one.

Vanessa Spina: [laughs] It's one of my favorites and I live by it because sometimes the stuff that we do, just like you said in your question, Annie, sometimes the stuff that we, does feel hard. But at the end of the day, if it does make life easier for you, then I think it's worth it. Whereas taking the easy way out sometimes feels easy in the moment, but not doing the hard work it can lead to making life harder. And it applies to so many different aspects of life, whether it's like health or business or work or relationships. It applies to everything. So sometimes I find you have to work and put that work in and then life gets really easy and really amazing. One example I could say is learning all of this stuff, doing all of this stuff has made me go from being obsessed and addicted to food and feeling really unempowered and unhappy and trapped in my body to feeling effortlessly lean. I don't have to think about, really food much at all anymore. I just eat to live. And I enjoy my meals when I eat them. But I have all this energy freed up now to go and live all my dreams and take that energy to feeling good, being in a good state, and then being able to work on the other stuff. Like you brought up about that analogy of the sky. You know, one of my favorite, favorite authors, aside from Deepak. I love him, Deepak Chopra-

Melanie Avalon: Who? I don't know his name.

Vanessa Spina: -he's amazing, is Michael Singer.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yes. Oh, we talked about-- I forgot, we both-- We love this book. Yes.

Vanessa Spina: Oh. The Untethered Soul, I feel like it was a culmination of every book I've read on meditation and mindset and work and everything. And I just listened to his new podcast while we’re in Greece and it was just so amazing. One of the things he talked about is how a lot of us are just stuck in this worry stack where it's like a stack of books and you're just worried about, say, the top item on your list. And then once you figure that out, then you just go to the next one on your worry stack and you worry about that. And it's just like no matter what you do, whenever you solve whatever problem, you're just going from one worry to another. Whereas if you just let go of all of that, and he gave this analogy of, like, a kid who knows that he's got a shot coming up, that he has to have a school mandatory vaccine or something. And he spends two weeks dreading the shot and worrying about it. Whereas the actual shot is like 2 seconds. I had one yesterday, [chuckles] intramuscular injection for pregnancy. The actual shot was like not even 5 seconds, like when the needle goes in everything.

But why spend all of that time worrying and anticipating the things that could go wrong in life when you could just let go of all of that and just fully experience life? And you're going to have fear in your heart. You're going to face your own heart and the fears that you have in it and everything. [chuckles] I know I'm growing really deep here, but that's all that self-work that is about mindset. And it comes through doing meditation, reading books about that inner monologue and the inner voice and the inner narrative, how you talk to yourself and what you're focusing on. Like, what state are you in right now? Are you concerned right now? Are you worrying right now? Or are you taking a moment to be mindful and set a positive intention for the day? Spend some time focusing on gratitude, shifting out of a fearful or worried state, stress state. Stress is just another word for fear. So, a lot of us are in a fearful state a lot of the time and there are things that we can do to feel good. So, it really comes down to, “Does this stuff make you feel happier?”

Like you have to do a self-assessment, like you said, Melanie, and be like, “Does this stuff make me feel better or does it just stress me out?” And if it just stresses you out, then it's not worth it. It's not worth doing. If, on the other hand, it does make you feel empowered and it is giving you tangible results, you're seeing benefits in your health and your physique and your energy levels, if you are feeling and seeing those benefits, then it's worth it for you. But you really have to take that assessment and see if this stuff is helping you. And I'm going to say, from your question, sounds like it's not making you very happy to do this stuff. Maybe you're just having a bad day. Maybe you're just feeling overwhelmed, because I know it can be overwhelming. Every day it seems like there's a new thing, there's a new supplement or there's deuterium depleted water, and there's all this stuff. And you have to kind of say, like, “I can't do all of this stuff, but I can do one thing and I can focus on one thing.” And that's a really important concept, I think, when it comes to all of this and biohacking is, you really want to do one thing at a time and really integrate that thing.

Like, if you want to get into cold exposure, focus on cold exposure and just adding in that one thing. But if you try to add in cold exposure, red light therapy and AI Bike and this new kind of fasting and blue light blocking glasses and you're adding in everything at the same time and trying to drink the deuterium depleted water, it's going to feel overwhelming. So, I really suggest just slow things down. You don't have to do everything. You can just do one thing at a time, focus on that thing, and that's how you're going to be able to assess each thing that you try. Like, does this one hack actually improve my life? Whereas if you're doing all of them at once, it's going to be hard to assess individually each thing. So, I think that's what I would say.

Melanie Avalon: I loved that so much. I love talking about this with you. Follow up thoughts. One, I forgot that we both loved Michael Singer so much. I think we talked about that like a while ago.

Vanessa Spina: A long time ago. Yeah. He's just so, so incredible. And he just released the new season of his podcast, which is like every episode is 45 minutes to an hour and it's just the best thing ever, I think. It's called The Untethered Soul, Michael Singer Podcast.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, the podcast is called that?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Each season is only like four or five episodes, but it's incredible. You want to listen to each one over and over again. But the book, yeah, The Untethered Soul, itself is incredible. And then the second book, also amazing. \

Melanie Avalon: When did he release that podcast you said?

Vanessa Spina: So this one just came out a few weeks ago.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, like brand new. He didn't have a prior season.

Vanessa Spina: And then there was a season 1, which I think came out like a year or two ago. And then he also has this course, which is like The Untethered Soul, which I did and Pete did a little bit with me. And it's a video course, but it's very similar to the podcast episodes, except it also has the video component to it. But the podcast this season is just mind blowing. It's amazing. So, I guess it's kind of like you want to be dedicating some percentage of your time or life to spending it on the mindset and mindfulness, consciousness, meditation, all of that really helps. I think it's something that you don't just do it once. It's something that you have to actively maintain.

You have to be reading books on a regular basis about it, doing meditation on a regular basis, putting in that work that makes life easy. You have to put in the time to do it. But I do find that the stuff that we do on the health and nutrition side, it helps to provide clarity, because for me, with food and everything, it generated so much noise in my life, and especially fixating on my physique and just food in general and being obsessed with food, once I figured out some of these concepts that we talk about a lot, like protein makes you really satisfied, so you don't have to think about food anymore. The noise just fell away. And then I was able to focus more on these other things, these other aspects as well. So, they kind of go hand in hand, I think.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah, to that point. So, two thoughts. One, I really like what you said about evaluating what is and isn't working, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. But in the Newsweek piece that I got to write, which was about my personal diet history and a little bit of my biohacking journey, the way I ended that, which is what I feel very strongly about, is that one of the most freeing things in my personal, “biohacking journey” was when I did have the realization that I don't have to do all these things. I was in this world where I was like, “I have to do all of this stuff.” I was like, the picture I can see in my head is me religiously clinging to these diet tips and techniques and biohacking things because I thought they were saving me. And that was really stressful honestly. And when I had the epiphany that, “Oh, I actually don't have to do any of this, and I can just do what makes me feel better and it can be additive, that was really freeing.” So, I think getting out of this overwhelming mindset of having to do all the things, you can still do all the things, but just that mindset of having to do them and feeling trapped by them is so different than choosing to do them. So, I like what Vanessa was saying about kind of taking stock of what you are doing and what is benefiting you and what's not and letting go of what is not benefiting you.

The second thing I was going to say was, no I forgot. I will say though, for her part about how can we live a normal life? So that's another thing where it's semantics, like, “What is normal?” Oh, I remembered, first of all, you get to decide what is normal and what you want your life to be. I don't see any reason to have to adapt to what society calls normal. The mosaic of all the people in the world is what makes society so interesting in my opinion. And then last comment. So, Vanessa was commenting on how she and I are often very happy, which is very true. I just want to clarify that I still have. Okay, well, first of all, when I was reading that Michael Singer book for the first time, The Untethered Soul, that was in my, like, what I call my dark time, I probably still seemed happy to other people. But even during that-- that's when I was really having a lot of health struggles and challenges. I still saw it as separate from who I was.

So, it never really colored my thoughts about the world and myself and my happiness. And even today, I'm so grateful and I really enjoy life, and I really do feel happy the majority of the time. And I can still feel incandescently happy while having very stressful things happening that I'm not enjoying, that are not fun. And those can exist simultaneously pretty easily for me. Like, even when really bad things happen, either in relationships or with business or work or stress, it's all separate to me. It's just what I'm experiencing at that moment. So, I'm still happy.

Vanessa Spina: I love everything that you said there. I have to say on the first point, I'm so glad that you said that, because I think a lot of people looking at you or being fans of you from listening to the show for a long time, would just assume that you are doing all the biohacks, that you have all the biohacking devices and you do all the biohacks. So, I think if there's anyone listening to the show who's been inspired by you over the years, it's probably really great for them to hear you say that you don't feel, like, the pressure to do all of them because you are known as, like, top six biohacker in the world. It's great that you don't feel some kind of pressure to do all the things and that you give yourself the grace and the time to just do what feels approachable and accessible and whatever in the time, you don't overwhelm yourself with stuff. So, I love that you said that. And then I also love that you mentioned that you're not necessarily happy all the time. I don't want to project a fake reality either, of course, life is still hard. [laughs]

There're still difficult moments. I sort of was referring to in general, your disposition, and I feel similar, like an overall state or disposition, whereas we both interact with a lot of people. And I always know, like, you're in a high vibe. I feel like I'm often in a high vibe, but we get there intentionally. I every day, set my intentions. I put myself in a state of thankfulness. It doesn't mean that I don't encounter hard or challenging things. I typically like to frame them as challenging because challenges bring out the best in you, but it's more of a disposition, and I feel like we both work at that. And I think, like I was saying it goes hand in hand with the fact that all the stuff that we do on the health and lifestyle also supports that. But the things that you and I find joy in and that support our health and happy mindset or happy disposition may not generate that for other people. It may generate more stress or a feeling that you're not keeping up with everyone else or you're not doing as well. It could generate all kinds of other feelings that I can't speak to. So, it's all about assessing yourself with anything that you do in life, with any job or any activity or anything that you pursue. Does this actually make my life happier? And if it doesn't, then you have to reevaluate.

Melanie Avalon: It's interesting because with the biohacks, I really came to a similar place. Like, I still do most of the things. My mindset is just completely different surrounding them. And then yeah, commenting just quickly on the perpetual happiness or high vibe thing. Something else from Amy Johnson's book that I really like. She points out that unpleasant experiences that may happen that you don't want to be in, that are happening. Like, when those happen, we think it's all consuming and it's the way it's going to be. And that's all we see when really it literally is going to pass. You don't even have to do anything, and it'll pass. And what I mean by that is bad things can happen, and we think that we have to fix it. It will pass. And the fact that you don't have to even do anything is kind of mind blowing. When things happen to me that I don't like being in that experience of, I literally see myself in it, and I see it as this is like a temporary, transitory thing that I am not enjoying. I'm very open about that. You can accept that I am not enjoying this happening right now, but it's not me. I'm still happy. I'm still great behind it and it'll pass.

Like, the thing that happened two nights ago was when I was working on my Taylor Swift sequin bodysuit and I was trying to get, like, glitter acrylic sparkle stuff to spray on it. So, I bought, like, three different ones. That stuff is so toxic smelling. And one of them, I didn't realize it, but it was broken, so it leaked, and it was everywhere in my apartment. So, my entire apartment was like fumes. I do not do well with fumes. When I was experiencing that, I was like, this is not fun. I am not enjoying this. This is not, um-mm, but I saw it as just something happening to me that would pass. Like, it's not me because I'm good behind it all. So, I hope that helps, Annie. [chuckles]

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for your question, Annie. And I hope that this gave you something to think about.

Melanie Avalon: Yes, yes, let us know. And also, because I'm assuming she has an autoimmune condition, so sending love with all of that, I was thinking we could answer because it relates Laura's question, hers was, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” kind of ties in. And then she says, “What makes you happy and grateful.”

Vanessa Spina: Yeah, that's perfect. That's perfect. Why don't you go first?

Melanie Avalon: Okay. So, Laura, she's asking, “If we had a limited budget, what supplements would you prioritize?” And this kind of relates to what we’re both saying before. I definitely had a great epiphany relief moment when I realized I didn't have to be taking all the supplements all the time. That was definitely a potential point of stress for me. And realizing that I'm taking these to help me. If I don't take them, that's okay. And also, yes, like Laura's asking, evaluate what would you prioritize? So, I think, as a baseline, making sure you're getting all of your nutrition is really important. So, looking at your diet, what are you getting all your nutrition and trying to get that from diet, especially, like, limited budget, you can get a lot of nutrition in whole foods and meat and egg yolks. There's a lot of really affordable ways to get nutrition from food. I think it can be hard, even with food, to get enough magnesium from your food. So, I would prioritize a magnesium supplement. It can be hard to get enough vitamin D depending on how much you're outside. So, I would prioritize a vitamin D supplement.

And then again, I think on the supplemental nutrition side of things, those are ones that most people are probably deficient in, and then beyond that, from there, seeing where else you might be deficient. And then beyond that, it’s for me personally, I benefit so much from digestive enzymes and HCL. So that's something for me. So, if you struggle with digestion and those really help, that might be something to prioritize, but that would be a case-by-case basis. When I just step back and think about what I want to say, like fun supplements, like supplement that's not dire because it's not nutrition related or digestion related. There is a reason I made serrapeptase as my first supplement for AvalonX. And it's just because it has such a profound effect on me, on my inflammation, on my sinuses, on so many things. So, I would personally prioritize my serrapeptase. I'll put a link avalonx.us and the coupon code MELANIEAVALON will get you 10% off sitewide. MD Logic did recently release a vitamin D supplement. It's a capsule supplement. I take a liquid form, but they released a capsule for people who like that, so that's a good option. And then I have a magnesium as well. I have two magnesiums on avalonx.us, digestive supplements I do want to make a line in the future. Right now, I take Pure Encapsulations brand. Yeah. What are your thoughts on supplements, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina: So I really don't take that many to begin with. So, I feel like I really prioritize because I find that if you take too many, it gets overwhelming and then you just stop taking them. Like, I've been there so many times. I take magnesium. It's the number one supplement that I travel with. I don't leave home without it. I now take Magnesium 8 by AvalonX every single day. I take it every single night, I give it to friends, I had it with me when we were in Greece. I've been wanting to share this with you, actually, for a while, but being pregnant, you have to be even more careful about the supplements that you take. And I trust your magnesium more than any other out there. So, thank you for making such an incredible supplement. But if I had to choose one, it would be that, honestly. And then magnesium citrate I always take with me when I'm traveling as well, because I feel like sometimes it complements it just to have the extra, but also sometimes when I'm traveling and I'm eating different things, if I don't feel like I'm as regular as I am when I'm at home, it really--

Melanie Avalon: Natural CALM.

Vanessa Spina: --yeah, it's the best. What's it called? Natural Vitality CALM.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah.

Vanessa Spina: And they have a smaller version of it, which is usually I have the big ones at home, but they have the smaller one that's great for travel. I always take with me because it's same with Pete. If he has any issues, just he's like, “Do you have the magnesium citrate?” I'm like, “Yep.” So, it's super helpful. That's, like, my number one. Right now, I'm taking a prenatal and I take prenatal or a multivitamin by Thorne. It's probably the other brand that I trust as much as AvalonX. And I mostly take it because of vitamin C, because I eat so, like, keto carnivore and carnivore-ish. Vitamin C, I think, is something that I would take on its own, but because I'm also pregnant, I just take a prenatal, and it's got everything. But on the days that I eat liver, as you were mentioning, trying to get the nutrients from your diet, then I don't take it because I don't need the folate. It's in the liver.

The other supplement that I love is L-carnitine. I'm fascinated by it. You actually do mostly get it from meat, which is where the word carne comes from. But I found some really interesting research on how it also, it's one of the transporters that helps you be fat fueled. So, it helps shuttle fatty acids into your tissues to be oxidized for fuel into your mitochondria. And so, I always take L-carnitine. For vitamin D I actually take cod liver. Like, I have cod liver in cans. And whenever I make, like, tuna salad for myself or Luca or Pete, I just put some cod livers in there, and it makes it taste extra good, extra rich because it's so fatty. But the cans I get come with cod liver oil. So, I take the oil out and I put that into a jar and I keep that and just use a dropper and put droplets on that. It's basically very similar to what you get with vitamin D drops, but it's actually the pure form. So that's kind of like a hybrid getting it from your food versus supplement. But if I don't have cod liver, then I will take a vitamin D supplement and I try to get in the sun as much as possible.

And my other one, last one is red light, because I really do consider light to be a nutrient. And so many of us are deficient in especially red light. And our mitochondria actually need red light to activate the chromophores or cytochrome c oxidase on the electron transport chain. So, I think that because of our modern lifestyles, we are actually deficient in this nutrient. So, I use red light every day so. I know you do too, although, I just thought it would be fun to include it in there.

Melanie Avalon: Just really quick, one, do you have my NightCap?

Vanessa Spina: I think so, yes, I do. But I've been meaning to ask you about it.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, to ask what it does?

Vanessa Spina: Yeah. Because I knew the Magnesium 8 would be fine for pregnancy, but I haven't taken the Serrapeptase yet or the NightCap one because I hadn't asked you about those yet. For some reason, the Serrapeptase scares me to take while pregnant. I'll probably wait until after. I'm sure it's safe, but I'll probably wait until after. But, yeah, tell me about the NightCap.

Melanie Avalon: First of all, I totally understand the pregnancy concerns. So, the NightCap, it's magnesium threonate, which is a special type of magnesium that crosses the blood brain barrier. So, it's basically the only, I mean, there might be some other types in small amounts, but this magnesium, if you take it will go into your brain and there're a lot of studies on it for memory and mood and rest and relaxation. So, it's a great complement to Magnesium 8 and we made it as a standalone because there was no way we could get the therapeutic amount of magnesium threonate into the Magnesium 8 blend. So yes, we wanted people to have the option to take it as like a brain boost or like relaxation. So, it's great. It should be completely fine for pregnancy. It's just another magnesium essentially.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, I'll try it. Yeah. So, you take it both with the eight?

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, you can take either whenever. I like taking a Magnesium NightCap at night, appropriately enough. But the studies actually usually do a biphasic dosing, like in the morning and evening. So, it won't make you tired per se, but it will help you sleep at night.

Vanessa Spina: Ooh, I'm going to try it tonight.

Melanie Avalon: It's great. I've had so much amazing feedback of people.

Vanessa Spina: That's what I was going to say is I've been wanting to take it because I constantly see people saying what a game changer it is.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, yeah. I'm so happy we're talking. Yeah. So that's at avalonx.us. And I was just going to say really quick, vitamin D. Did you know, do you like mushrooms?

Vanessa Spina: I love them. I have chanterelles in my fridge right now that I just got, I'm obsessed with mushrooms.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, wait, “What is your favorite mushroom?” I know this is not--

Vanessa Spina: Probably, chanterelle. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: This is not important. Stop this train. Stop this train. [laughter] Bring it back. Okay.

Vanessa Spina: I just love because they're not part of the vegetable or fruit. Like, they're their own kingdom. It's so interesting.

Melanie Avalon: They're crazy. And what's it called? The whole network of mushroom land. It expands underneath the ground, and they talk and it's a whole thing. Did you know you can put your mushrooms outside and charge them to fill them up with vitamin D? I just learned this because they produce vitamin D, so if you put them outside. The article I was reading, I have to fact check this, but it said you could get your daily requirements of vitamin D by putting your mushrooms outside for, like, 15 minutes.

Vanessa Spina: That's amazing. That's so cute.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Charge up your little mushrooms. Oh, it's like Mario Kart.

Vanessa Spina: My mushies.

Melanie Avalon: I love mushrooms. They're so good. They're like umami. They're just ahh, they're so good. I went through, like, a mushroom phase where I was like, “Oh, try all the mushrooms.”

Vanessa Spina: Okay, so what's your favorite? We have to end on that.

Melanie Avalon: Yeah. So, I did go through that phase, like I said. I did really like oyster mushrooms, but I didn't really digest them as well. I just eat every night. Okay, wait, portobello and baby bella, wait, there's ones that are the same. It just has to do with the timeline of their life. That blew my mind. It kind of blew my mind because button mushrooms are white, cremini are brown, okay. These are all the same mushroom. I didn't realize this. So, button mushrooms are white. They're like the toddlers or the babies. Then there's cremini, which are brown. Those are like the teenagers. And then there are portobellos, which are brown and larger and those are the adults. They're all the same mushroom, which is-- so when you go to the store and it's like, they're the same mushroom kind of upsetting. Kind of like the fact that tea leaves are all the same plant that blew my mind. That was really upsetting to me to learn that green tea and black tea are the same thing. I like those that I just mentioned because they're really easy for me to digest in my scallops. It's not very adventurous though.

Vanessa Spina: I love it. I love that we both love mushrooms. All the fungi fans out there will be loving this little bonus segment as well.

Melanie Avalon: I know. Should we answer her question about what makes you happy or grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, yeah. I mean, you, this podcast, my family, just being alive, the power of the mind and mindset, even just, I'm thankful for thankfulness and how powerful it is to just sit down and write down what you're thankful for in any moment. Because there's always something, no matter what you're going through, there's always something that you can be grateful for. And it gives you just such good vibes. It shifts your state, it's empowering. And it also just moves you up the emotional scale so you feel happier. I love the power of appreciation. I like to go on rampages of appreciation. It's such a powerful, underrated tool, and you can access it any moment and it's so amazing. So, I'm just thankful for everything, for podcasting, for the Internet we can talk right now, technology, for mushroom. [laughs] What about you? I could go on for another hour, so I'm going to stop.

Melanie Avalon: Same. There're so many things. Don't get me started. Well, yes. I'm so grateful for you and this podcast. It's just so wonderful. Every time I text Vanessa, I'm just like, so happy, so grateful.

Vanessa Spina: Oh, for listeners. Sorry.

Melanie Avalon: Oh, listeners. Oh, yes. Oh, we're so grateful for the listeners. Something that I think about a lot. I am so grateful that my job and what I do in life is what I love. I am so grateful that what I get to do essentially every second of my life is my work. Not that I'm working my whole life, but my work is my love and my joy. I'm not having to clock in somewhere I don't want to be. I get to do what I love and I get to interact with so many people and share it with other people. I'm just so, so, so grateful for that. I can't even express enough. And then just all the things, like you said, “I could just go on and on and on.” And my relationships, my family, all the people in my life, I just really, really treasure. So red light. I'm holding a red-light thing in my hand right now. So many things. Okay. On that note, [laughter] this was like the mindset episode for listeners.

These show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 345. It will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions@ifodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @melanieavalon, and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina: Just feeling so much thankfulness. [laughter]

Melanie Avalon: I know. All gratitude.

Vanessa Spina: Thank you for that wonderful question.

Melanie Avalon: I know, I know. Thank you, Laura. All right, well, this has been wonderful, and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina: Sounds great. Talk to you.

Melanie Avalon: Bye.

[Transcript provided by SpeechDocs Podcast Transcription]

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