The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

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Oct 14

Episode 391: Special Guest Masey Hammons, The Fasting Evolution Journey, Balanced Diets, Fasting On The Road, Biohacking, Protein Sparing Modified Fasts, Mounjaro, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #138 - Maria Emmerich

Welcome to Episode 391 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or ground beef—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

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Masey's background, personal story

Finding fasting, then clean fasting

The evolution of Masey's fasting journey

Go to Melanieavalon.com/ketoadapted and use the coupon code MELANIEAVALON to get 10% off Site Wide!

Alcohol with a fasting lifestyle

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Being on the road in a healthy way

Changing lives

Mounjaro (GLP-1 agonist)

Episode 388: Special Guest: Dr. Naomi Parrella, Weight Loss, Fat Loss, Semaglutide And GLP-1 Inhibitors, Fasting With An App, Muscle Loss, High Protein Diets, And More!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 391 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 391 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I have a very special guest here today. Friends, I am so excited about this. So we're going to try something new on this show where we start interviewing you guys about your intermittent fasting journeys. The idea came up because we get just such incredible questions. And honestly, a lot of times, the questions that I gravitate towards are where people are sharing a lot about their life. And so I was thinking, you know what, we should just have some listeners on so we can hear all about their stories, their journeys with intermittent fasting, their challenges, their unique approaches. So I'm really excited for this. I'm actually nervous because it's like the first time I've done this format. But if you're interested, definitely email us if you would like to be on the show. And for that, just email questions at ifpodcast.com. And then I think we also have a submission link form as well that I can put the show notes. But in any case, so today's guest, the first in this lineup, I am here with Masey Hammons. And friends, she submitted her story to us. And I have a lot of questions because I don't even know where to start. First of all, Masey, you have like a really cool job. Can I just say that? Yes, absolutely. So I'm dying to hear all about that and how you integrate intermittent fasting into all of that before that. So we were just talking offline. And so you live in Louisiana.

Masey Hammons:
Yes, that's correct.

Melanie Avalon:
A few hours from New Orleans.

Masey Hammons:
Yeah, so I'm about two and a half hours away from New Orleans, an hour from Baton Rouge. So I live in a smaller university town in Louisiana.

Melanie Avalon:
Super cool. Would you believe I actually haven't been to New Orleans ever?

Masey Hammons:
Based on the way that you talk about travel, I feel like New Orleans would be like extra anxiety for you. But if you ever come, I will be your tour guide.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh yay, I feel so seen and understood. Do you go much, being sort of close-ish?

Masey Hammons:
So my future husband, his family is actually from New Orleans. So we go to visit them and my father lived in New Orleans growing up as well. So we take our time to go to the city, but we usually do the non touristy things.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was going to ask because like when I think New Orleans, I think I think two things I think maybe I think three things I think partying. I think drinking like outside. Absolutely. And I think ghosts like haunted stuff.

Masey Hammons:
Oh, okay, so this is a first because you didn't save Mardi Gras.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that too. My runner-up was going to be like something related to food. Yeah, no, Mardi Gras, that too. Non-touristy stuff. Is that just like restaurants? Or like, what is the non-tourist version?

Masey Hammons:
So there are actually a lot of really cool places in New Orleans that are very historical, being like a southern portion of the US. We're so intertwined of Spanish and French culture because we were kind of flipped back and forth. So there's tons of properties that you can see. We have a rich museum district downtown. And I really just like being in the French quarter. It's so old and it kind of feels like home and special when you're there. So you can find anything you want downtown New Orleans.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. Okay. So maybe, maybe I will go sometime and we're going to have to circle back later. I'm really curious in your eating window what you would eat in New Orleans. Okay. But in any case, so I mentioned your job. So you are, you're a director of forensics for a university speech and debate team.

Masey Hammons:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
What does that even mean?

Masey Hammons:
my students compete in competitive performance and debate events. So think about speeches that they would give poetry, prose performances, dramatic monologues, and they also do debate styles. So I got involved when I was in high school. I really found myself, my voice, my advocacy. I had an amazing female coach who just taught me that I could be anything in the world, regardless of where I came from. And so when I went to college, I thought I want to do that too. So I got my master's, started coaching a collegiate team. And then when I finished my doctorate, I was coaching again. I took a little break, and then I've been back for a couple of years now. And I have to say, it's one of the most rewarding jobs to see young people being advocates every single weekend and really standing up for the things that they believe in and spreading the message that they feel like is most important to them.

Melanie Avalon:
I am so fascinated by this and in particular because I feel like when it comes to language and grammar and things like that, you know, there are certain paradigms and structures and you don't see them until you learn them and then you see them everywhere. So I'm super curious, like, do you filter the world and conversations that people have? Do you see them differently through kind of like a debate lens, especially in today's culture where people are like arguing about everything all the time?

Masey Hammons:
Oh, definitely. You could not imagine the number of people who find out what I do and say, well, I want to debate you. My whole platform is, I really don't mind wherever you land on the spectrum, you know, the political spectrum, religious spectrum, any of those things. It's really about we should all learn to be able to communicate with each other in a way that's fact based, that's ethical. And, you know, with social media and all of those things, we don't get a lot of that anymore. So that's really what I teach my students to do on the team and in my university classes. And that's the kind of person that I try to be so that my students see an example of what it looks like to be able to talk with people who don't necessarily believe the same things that you do.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so incredible, because I think, at least for me, I think the first thing I think when I think debate is I think, oh, trying to win an argument. But hearing what you're saying, it's more about, like you said, finding the facts and actually communicating about what you believe in. I guess being, well, that's a question. Is it also about being open to change if you realize the other person is correct or do you stick to whatever you're trying to debate when you're having the debate?

Masey Hammons:
Inside of the debate round, you stick to it, but outside of the debate round, of course, we change our mind when we're presented with the right kind of evidence.

Melanie Avalon:
Love that, okay. And the actual topics, how often, what do they involve and how often do they involve health-related topics?

Masey Hammons:
actually quite a bit. So the type of debate we do, it's called IPDA. And our students get five topics on a slip of paper 30 minutes before the round. And they go through a procedure called striking. And so between the two competitors, they end up with one topic, it could be a metaphor like the grass is greener on the other side. It could be something like football, like pop culture, anything that's happening. It could also be like environmental health care based policy. So it's like a very broad range. And it's up to the student to try to steer the debate towards their strengths. So that way they can come out with the win.

Melanie Avalon:
That is so cool. Okay. I love this. I'll probably circle back to it a little bit more, but getting into your personal story. So we have a little bit of a color picture of your life with what you wanted to do with your passions and all of those things. What was your health journey like during that, especially when it comes to weight and dieting? What was the journey there?

Masey Hammons:
Kind of like you mentioned, when people think about the South, they think about food, right? So for my whole life, everything that I did, my culture and my community was all about food and drinks. At breakfast, we talked about lunch. At lunch, we talked about dinner. It's this entire social experience surrounded by your family and friends. And in this culture, we don't always think about what is healthy or what we should be doing. And that gets away from you very quickly. And so as a kid, you can keep up with it, right? You're active. You're doing other things. But as you become older, you realize that, hey, maybe I don't really know what healthy eating looks like. And maybe I haven't learned enough about what my particular body needs. So I started on the journey, like most of us, in college. But I found that no matter how much I exercised or changed my diet, things just weren't working for me. And so it got to a point where I ended up meeting a fabulous endocrinologist. And his dietician gave me some homework. And that homework was to listen to your podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is crazy. That's crazy to me.

Masey Hammons:
Oh my goodness. Me being the studious person that I am, I went home and I started listening from number one and I listened until I caught all the way up. And that's when it really hit me, like maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way. And so working with that endocrinologist and starting intermittent fasting, and just as that developed into some keto strategies, sometimes I do PSMF, it just, it really changed my life. So in 2022, when I met the endocrinologist, I was about 260 pounds. And when I went to the doctor yesterday, I was about 174.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. Do you still work with that dietician?

Masey Hammons:
So they're still at the office. I don't have to see them anymore because I got a gold star, but I still do see the endocrinologist every few months just to monitor because I have some things going on in my body that were really holding me back. And then once we identified those like PCOS and metabolic syndrome, then that's when we were able to really like start moving the needle forward.

Melanie Avalon:
You were talking in your form about how you also have been able to go off of some of your medications as well?

Masey Hammons:
Yes. So I have been on high blood pressure medicine since I was 22. My dad had his heart attack when he was 40. His mother, his father both had heart attacks very early on as well. And so that's been a fear my entire life that that's in my future. And I was able to go entirely off of the medication. And ever since then, so about a year and a half now, I've been rock solid. I've also been able to get rid of some of the other medication for like fatty liver disease and other things. So it's been really exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
So when you first, I'm really curious if you remember, so you went in, you got your homework about listening to our show, which, oh my goodness. I can't even imagine what our episodes were like in the beginning. It was so long ago. That was like 2017 or 18. I'm curious, how long did it take you to decide to try intermittent fasting? And like, was there any one thing that made you decide to try it? And was it like a quick decision or did you have to think it over? Do you remember, you might not remember.

Masey Hammons:
Totally do.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so what was that like?

Masey Hammons:
I saw the endocrinologist and then two weeks later, I saw his dietician. So the endocrinologist said, you're going to do intermittent fasting. But like most doctors, he just said, you're going to fast. I want you to fast for 16 hours, eat for eight. And that's it. That's all he gave me. And then I went to the dietician after trying to fast for two weeks. And as you can imagine, I was doing it terribly. I was having bone broth. I was doing, yeah, I was doing all the things that are like not allowed. And so then they gave me the podcast and I listened to those episodes where you and Jen were like, this is how you do it. And after that, I was like, this is amazing. It fits so well into my lifestyle and it wasn't a struggle anymore. And to this day, I mean, we bop around, you know, flexible based on what I'm doing, if I'm traveling. But most days we're fasting 16 to 20 hours a day still, even when we're doing other styles like PSMF.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, and by we, you mean you and your fiance? Oh!

Masey Hammons:
Oh, yes. Oh, so he's doing it too? Oh, yeah. So I will say, so for him, he doesn't have any medical conditions, but just regular fasting for him, like it was a struggle because we had to figure out what fit. And then once we started trying PSMF three days a week, that was like worked for his body. So he was not really overweight. So he didn't have a lot of weight to lose, but he's lost about 20 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, so many keywords, I'm so excited. There's so much to talk about here. I find it so interesting that the doctor, on the one hand, it's really nice that he's recommending fasting. That's really nice. It's also really interesting. It never really occurred to me. Honestly, I don't think in the entirety of this show, I haven't contemplated how a doctor might recommend it but not give any context really. And you're kind of just on your own. Yeah, that would be really confusing, I imagine. And just for listeners, I mean, listeners are probably familiar, but when you said you were doing all the things wrong, so like bone broth, were you having, what else were you having during the, quote, fast?

Masey Hammons:
So at the time, I was a high school teacher, so I had to be at work for about 620. So at 620, I would get to work. I would make a cup of bone broth, and I would drink that until it was time to eat lunch. But also, we didn't even think about things like gum or mints or other stuff like that. I was like, oh, no calories. It's totally fine. I was drinking tea that had things in it, like natural flavors. All the things that you do to get you through the fast before you know that it could be easy if you just didn't do those things.

Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting because I feel like in the evolution of this show, I've had three co-hosts now and everybody has their own passion. So I feel like when I was with Jen, she's all about the clean fast, so we were talking about that all the time. And I'm just thinking right now how we haven't talked about that a lot recently. Vanessa is more about the protein, and so that's a common topic. And then with Cynthia, it was a lot about, well, she loves protein too, but that was a lot about hormones. So I'm just thinking about how with the clean fast concept, how we used to talk about it all the time and don't that much anymore. So I'm glad we're talking about it now. It's interesting because for me, and I've talked about this on the show before, but I didn't start with clean fasting for a long time either, and it did work for me. And so I know for some people, it's hard for me because I know it can sometimes work as a training wheel for people getting their way in, but then I just know it's so much easier when you do the clean fasting. And for some people like you, it sounds like it was just not working. Do you remember like, were you pretty hungry?

Masey Hammons:
Oh, I was white knuckling it the whole time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so it's so interesting, you know, with different people how, again, I, but I wasn't doing bone broth. I think that would, that would probably really kept me hungry. I mean, that's literally like nutrients, literally food. Okay. So once you finally got into the groove of the fasting approach that worked for you, you mentioned, I definitely want to talk about PSMF, but you mentioned keto. So your food choices surrounding this, did you make what, what were, and you also talked about, oh wait, I want to comment on that really quickly. The South, I also am from the South as you know, and yes, the food here is just, it's just not the best for health. It's like kind of shocking. I, like when I see it, I'm like, it's not surprising to me that we have, you know, so many challenges today with, you know, weight and the obesity epidemic and everything. Just like, look at the food that we're surrounded by. So your food choices, did you make any changes to what you were eating before that? So like, what were you eating then when you first started?

Masey Hammons:
So the weird thing about this is that I was one of those people who was already eating the balanced diet per se, making sure that I was having the protein, the healthy carb, and the vegetable. I was doing all the things right, but I wasn't seeing any difference. And I think that had a lot to do with the fact that we don't understand a lot about calories in, calories out, or all those things that we tell people to do and they'll be fine. And so my journey sort of changed as the evolution of your show happened, because I was listening to three or four episodes a day to catch up. So in the gin era, I focused on the clean fast. And so I stuck to the things that I was already eating, a balanced diet, making sure we were reducing things that we shouldn't have. And then when we got into the Cynthia era, I found a functional practitioner and added them to my team. Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. And so that really changed the way I started thinking about supplements and my insulin resistance. And that's when we had more of a focus on what was actually happening metabolically in my body. And so then we did Cynthia's 45 day transformation. Oh, you did. We did. And we loved the food and it was, it's more of a focus on higher protein and just better complex carbs if you have them. And then as we got into the Vanessa era, which now I just feel like I'm hanging out with my girlfriends, right? Because you and Vanessa are like my age. So now I'm like, Oh my gosh, all this information about protein. And then that's how we found PSMF. So my diet never really was terrible to begin with. But if I look at the beginning to now, like we mostly focus on our protein goals. Now we don't eat a ton of fruit or any of those things that we were considering was okay before. And we've had some real conversations with ourself about whether or not like alcohol is worthwhile, you know, especially here in the South, you could drink every day if you wanted to, you definitely have the opportunity with all the social occasions. And so we started asking ourselves what kind of life we wanted and what we wanted our longevity to look like. And so now I'm in the era of body composition and just doing the things that are going to keep me here and healthy the longest.

Melanie Avalon:
This is awesome. I'm going to text Cynthia after this and tell her about that. That's so great.

Masey Hammons:
Oh, yes, please.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'll tell her hi from you. That's amazing. And when you're talking about the eras, I'm like, I need to have like, it's like the Taylor Swift eras tour. I need to have like the eras of the show. That's so funny. Clarifying question about your fiance because you talked about him doing it. What made him first decide to do it? Did he see your success and just want to like, try it to come along? Or what was our conversation there? Did you want him to do it?

Masey Hammons:
So he is one of those people that will not let you go through any journey alone. And so when I came home from the doctor, the first question he said was, what do we need to do? And this was before we had, you know, this was the beginning. And so every single time that I have had something change for me, he's been 100% on board. And he says, okay, let's, let's meal plan and let's go to the grocery store. And he's always in. So I think that's probably why I decided to marry him.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm curious, when he started doing it, did he expect one thing and then it was another thing or did he expect for it to be, you know, great for him?

Masey Hammons:
I don't know what he really expected, but he also kind of was like, I'm a little bit older and I want to be around for my kids, for you. And so he really got into the biohacking aspect of it because also I started reading Dave's books and all of that stuff. So he got more into the heat cold plunges on a pretty regular basis. And so we found a gym that offers a lot of that stuff. And so he got into that aspect. Like we bought a vagus nerve stimulator last night because functional practitioner recommended it. So yeah, so he's just, he's always willing to try and he's just happy to be along for the ride.

Melanie Avalon:
So cute, when's your wedding? Do you have it planned?

Masey Hammons:
Oh, I do. It's December 14th. I actually just took my bridles.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that's so exciting. Wow, that's coming up.

Masey Hammons:
Oh, I'm definitely going to send you a photo because I'm a non-traditional bride. I don't want to give any secrets away, but I'm going to send you and Vanessa the photos so that you can see. It's going to sound weird, but my wedding is actually dinosaur themed.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Wait, this is so cool. Okay. That's cool. I love that. I love when people do things like, cause everything, I mean, I love weddings in general, but dinosaur themed. So is your dress going to evoke that a little bit?

Masey Hammons:
It does, and I took my bridal photos in a paleontology exhibit at a museum.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, oh my goodness, I want to see these pictures. Yes. Are the bridesmaids, do they have outfits?

Masey Hammons:
So we decided to go with greens. So we have a spectrum. So yeah, they all got to pick their own green and they all picked their own dress that they loved. I only have four of them, plus my stepdaughter, my niece, is our little flower girl. And she's going to be wearing this cute little golden ball gown.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you always loved dinosaurs? Is that like your thing? Oh yes.

Masey Hammons:
I also love, like, I don't want to say cult classics because I don't think anybody else loves Lake Placid as much as I do, except for my sister, but those are the movies that I like. Anaconda, Lake Placid, there's like six of them. If you didn't know that, look them up.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, what's in like, okay, that's ringing a bell. Is that like a Loch Ness Monster thing or?

Masey Hammons:
It's an alligator.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, it's an alligator. Okay.

Masey Hammons:
Yes. But they have about six of them. It's the only movie that I think rivals the land before time for a number of sequels.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you know my land before time story?

Masey Hammons:
that you watched number two or like number three instead of number one.

Melanie Avalon:
We had lamb before time two. So I just literally thought it was lamb before time two. Like, like, like that's the movie. I didn't realize there was a one.

Masey Hammons:
I thought to myself I wonder which one I watched because I would always watch it at a friend's house because she had it.

Melanie Avalon:
She probably had lamb before time too, if we're the same age, honestly.

Masey Hammons:
We're close. I think I'm older than you, but only by a little bit.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so okay, so might have been before we might have been number one. That's so funny. I also have this and I won't go on this tangent forever. But speaking of alligators, I saw this movie when I was little, I don't think I was supposed to be watching it, but I did and it scarred me for life and I had an alligator and I always thought it was alligator, but like the movie alligator, but maybe it was like placid. You'll probably know the answer in the beginning, the way the alligator got where it got was because the kid flushed it down the toilet.

Masey Hammons:
Oh no, so that one is actually when the alligator lives in the sewers.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that alligator? Is that just like the movie alligator?

Masey Hammons:
It's something like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I just have I should not have been watching that movie when I was like four or five. Okay, that's awesome So is your fiancee down with I mean i'm guessing he's down. He's down with this dinosaur themed wedding

Masey Hammons:
Yes, he loves dinosaurs just as much as I do. He actually is his very next tattoo. I told him no tattoos, any more tattoos until after the wedding. But his next tattoo is going to be a velociraptor, and it's going to say, clever girl. And that's for me, because I'm his clever girl.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. That's so, that's so cute. That's amazing. Look at you guys. You would have been great in the stone age doing your fasting. You're like hunter gathering, you're existing with the dinosaurs. Wow. Okay. So back to speaking of fasting and the protein. Okay. So you mentioned that you're not doing fruit and such. So when it does come to the carbs and the keto, what has been your evolution with your relationship to low carb versus not low carb versus keto? What has that been like?

Masey Hammons:
Yeah, so I kind of got to a point where I realized that I was doing more strength training and other things. And I started to not feel my best when I added that in. And so that's when I really started honing in and listening to Vanessa's other podcast. And that's when I realized that maybe we're just not getting enough protein on a weekly basis. So that's when I started reading PSMF. And then she had Maria Emmerich on one of them. And so we picked up her book and we followed the recipes in the book. And that's when I was like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. And so pretty much in a day for us, we'll do two meals. So we open up our fast anytime after two o 'clock usually. And that's pretty much just like chicken sausage. We do a lot of shrimp, scallops, or steak. And then for dinner, we'll do the same thing. But sometimes for dinner, if it's not a PSMF day, we'll add like the asparagus. So vegetables that are low carb vegetables. But then on PSMF days, it's mostly just the meat. And I was surprised because I didn't think I would like it so much. But that's what I find myself craving all the time now.

Melanie Avalon:
some clarification and definitions for listeners. PSMF refers to protein sparing modified fast. In the clinical literature historically, and I'm guessing it probably, I should know this, I feel like historically it probably first was a clinical studied dietary approach. It's historically very calorie restricted. You're eating, I don't know how many, like 500, 600, 700 calories of basically just pure protein. Maria, who's a wonderful soul, and I've had her on my show as well. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. I should have her back on this show actually. I think I'll reach out to her. She has kind of taken the PSMF and taken tenets from it and made it her own thing, which is basically just eating tons of lean protein. Because correct me if I'm wrong, you don't count calories with that approach, right? You just eat the PSMF foods essentially. Yeah, she has so many recipe books. So actually, if listeners go to melanieavalon.com/ketoadapted, you can use the coupon code MelanieAvalon that will get you 10% off site wide. And she does have, like we're talking about so many recipe books, it's really amazing. And she has a lot of really amazing like Instagram content and YouTube. So if this approach resonates with you, I definitely recommend checking out her work. So when you started implementing those those days, how did that move the needle in your personal goals? Like what did you see happen with that?

Masey Hammons:
So really, that's what got me over my last plateau. So I've never really been a person to focus on the number because I always feel like I have weighed a lot in the grand scheme compared to other people. And so when I was doing lifting two days a week or sometimes even more than that, depending on what my schedule looks like, I realized that I was getting stronger and I was really able to start increasing the amount of weight that I was lifting. And I'm not like a crazy gym person. I do body pump at my gym. It's a 50 minute class. It's a full body workout, which thanks to Vanessa, I now know is totally cool because she just did a study about that on one of her episodes. So I was like, yeah, I'm doing something right. But yeah, like that's what got me from just losing weight to actually focusing on body re-composition and making progress in the gym strength-wise.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this. I will also text Vanessa after this and tell her that. All the texts are incoming. Yeah, it's really interesting with the PSMF because as I'm sure you're familiar with since I've talked about this so much, but my first dietary hack, well, my first like kind of rogue crazy dietary hack that I tried myself was when I had the epiphany like a decade ago, I was like, oh, I could basically eat just lean protein and not probably gain any weight and probably lose weight and feel really full. And that's why I went through this period of time, which I'm not recommending. This is like an ongoing dietary approach, but it's basically the PSMF approach. I kind of like found it on my own just like by thinking about it, just thinking like, okay, all the options of what we can eat, like what would the metabolic effects be? Oh, let me try eating just tons of lean protein. And I do think so again, that's it's not sustainable. It's not meant to be an ongoing, like a daily thing. But as you experienced, there's a lot of metabolic magic to it. And it's, you know, super protective of muscle. So I think it can be a great hack and a great way like you said to break through plateaus, speed up weight loss, you know, depending on where you are at your journey, I think it's a really nice tool to have. And what I love is this approach because a lot of people when they hear it, they might think severely calorie restricted PSMF because historically, like I said, that is what it is. But when you take this Maria Emmerich approach, you don't even have that with it. You get to just eat all the things. Pretty much. What's your favorite PSMF food to start with that?

Masey Hammons:
This one surprised me, but I make Maria's bread, so it's... Yeah. Her cloud bread? Yes. I make it by the loaf every other week. So every other week, that's our food prep for the three days that we do it. And I'm not a huge bread person, like a sandwich bread, but I would eat that bread every single day of my life, whether I was doing PSMF or not. It's delicious.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. And how do you make it again? I've watched, I've looked at the recipe a lot, I've watched her make it. It's like egg whites, right?

Masey Hammons:
So it's really easy. It's egg whites. And then if you live somewhere like us where it's humid, you should use the cream of tartar. But if you live somewhere less humid, you might not have to use it. And then egg white protein powder. And that's pretty much it. You let it whip. And then you put it in your loaf pans. You bake it in the oven for 45 minutes, and then you let it sit for like an hour. Then when you take it out of the oven, you let it sit for a couple more hours. And then after that, it slices like regular bread. And we keep ours in the refrigerator. So we slice two slices and pack it in parchment paper. And then in a separate container, we pack our ham and our cheese, whatever we're having with the sandwich. And then that's it. It's the easiest meal prep for three lunches in a week.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing and I'm actually surprised I haven't made it does it taste like bread it does

Masey Hammons:
And we've even, so we made it cinnamon rolls out of it. We watched a video and I was like, I don't think it's going to work, but we did that. We've also turned it into croutons. We've made the flatbread and the hot dog buns. It's more versatile than you would think. And like, again, I thought it was going to be disgusting, but it's wonderful. I love eating it.

Melanie Avalon:
You mentioned the cinnamon rolls. Do you ever make dessert-y type things?

Masey Hammons:
Sometimes we so the one thing about forest is he's a snacker. Oh his name is

Melanie Avalon:
forest I love that and he loves the dinosaurs and you guys this is amazing

Masey Hammons:
Yeah. So if I make anything like that, we'll eat it too quickly. So a small serving of something that's sweet, it's not going to happen. So we try not to do things like that, just for special occasions, especially when we have our kids over. Well, our kids, they're forest kids, but they've been troopers because they come over and they eat the food that we make, and they are excited to try things. So our sweet little Luna, she came over when we made the cinnamon rolls, she helped me make them. And then I think she ended up having three servings of them because she loved them so much.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. That's amazing. I love it. I love it. Well, again, so for listeners, definitely go to Melanie Avalon dot com/keto adapted use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. That's where all of Maria's recipe books are. And I'm pretty sure she has like dessert recipe, like she has a lot of different books with different, you know, topics depending on what you want to be cooking or baking. So the alcohol piece, I'm curious what type of drinks do you gravitate towards? And have you ever tried a clean alcohol approach?

Masey Hammons:
We are the kind of Southerners that have a full-on bar in our house, so it's in our parlor, we call it the parlor, and it's got just about everything. Forrest was in the restaurant industry for a long time. He was a bartender. So when we drink, it's typically cocktails. Those are the things that we gravitate towards. My favorite drink is like an espresso martini. I love coffee, and so the two pairing together is my favorite. And so one of the things that we started substituting were easy things. So instead of making a regular margarita, we were using the element and sparkling water.

Melanie Avalon:
I interrupted you so do you for that it's is it the lime element that you use we actually like the

Masey Hammons:
mango chili one.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. That's cool. That makes sense.

Masey Hammons:
Yeah, so we've tried the lime before, but the mango chili, because it makes like a spicy, especially if you like mezcal or something like smokier. Yeah, but we also like, we'll do the watermelon flavors during the summer with sparkling water, and then maybe like vodka. But yeah, so when we were going to friends houses, that's what we started packing. So instead of bringing things with lots of sugar, we were still drinking the alcohol, but substituting. And then now at this point, we are pretty much just, we're going to have the beverage that we want. We're just going to do it less often.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so for you, at this point in your life, you would rather have, yeah, like I said, like you literally just said, so rather than like an ongoing making these adjustments, you'd rather have like the like the add espresso martini that you really enjoy and having it less. Yeah, I love hearing people's different approaches to alcohol and how it affects their weight loss journey or not or their health or not. And I was actually literally talking about it yesterday and I was getting interviewed on a podcast and we were talking about it. Like, have you noticed an impact on your health and weight loss journey with it?

Masey Hammons:
I really have, and it's not even just about how I feel long term. It's about how I feel in the short term after that happens because that alcohol can affect you for like two or three days. And so if we were drinking and then I had something important the next week, I would realize like, hey, I don't quite feel like myself. I have a little bit of the brain fog. I don't have as much energy. And so I really started adjusting when I was going to have a drink and what was after that and whether or not that was worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that that completely makes sense. And like for me, I can't have any of and I've talked about this at length on both shows, but I I know it works for me, which is just basically like dry firm wine. So low alcohol, low sugar, organic wines. I mean, basically, that's that's all I drink. And then when I go out, I try to find the comparable as close as possible to that that I can. If I were to drink, I don't remember the last time I had a mixed drink. I think if I had like an espresso martini, that would probably just wipe me out. Like I don't even know. I don't remember every now and then I'll like taste if my if I'm with somebody out and they have something. But yeah, and generally stick to the wine. So oh, and for listeners, if they're interested in element, you can get a free sample pack and it will include I believe it includes all of the current flavors. So you'll get to try that. What was the what was it a chili flavor that you have mango chili, mango chili, and it should include mango chili, it should include watermelon, lime, all the things. The only one that's clean, fast friendly. So to have during the fast is the raw unflavored. But this is my favorite electrolyte drink mix ever. You can go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast use the actually no, I think it's automatic. So drinklmnt.com/ifpodcasts and that will get you a free sample pack with any order, I believe. Okay, other things. So so that's the food stuff. As far as the actual challenges with intermittent fasting, because it sounds like you've really settled into, you know, an approach that really works for you. A few questions there. One, how often do you switch it up the the time windows and historically, how much have you switched it up?

Masey Hammons:
So we're probably switching it up. So the three days a week that we do PSMF, we're breaking our fast probably around noon. And then we have dinner around 6. And then on the days that I'm not doing PSMF, I'm fasting longer. And on those days, I might actually only do oat mad because I may not be hungry or I'm comfortable just getting the amount of protein that I want that day in the one meal. It's a lot harder to get more protein in that one meal for me anyway. And then when I'm traveling, so with speech and debate, we travel from a Friday through a Sunday. So we compete on Saturday and Sunday, primarily sometimes Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So what I'll do is when we leave Louisiana, we compete mostly in Texas, we have a rule. How far is that? So like this weekend, we're going to Texas State. So it's about six hours.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. How big is the team?

Masey Hammons:
So my team has about 15 kids, but I travel with just a van full at a time. So we try to make it so that everybody can travel to at least one tournament a month. But I travel to all of the tournaments each month.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow.

Masey Hammons:
Yeah, so I'm about I'm heading into my streak. I'll be gone this weekend next weekend and the next weekend all in Texas

Melanie Avalon:
What? You're going to go back and forth? Yes. Does it feel the more you do it to take less time to get there? Like, or does it still take seem to take a really long time?

Masey Hammons:
My team has a really good routine. So they know that once we get in the car, we're not going to stop until we get to Bucky's, which is like in the Baytown, Houston area. And so that's when so we fast until that point. And then that's when I have a meal because Bucky's has this like everybody fast the kids to some of my kids, they do because on the way we listen to your show. Oh my goodness. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
That gives me like a new perspective of who I'm speaking to sometimes.

Masey Hammons:
It's become a joke and so the kids try to see how many times they can get me to say intermittent fasting in a weekend. So now a lot of times I say I F and I'm like tricked you. But yeah, we either listen to your show or Vanessa's show. Then when we get to Bucky's, we have our snacks at Bucky's and Bucky's is if you've ever been to one, you can actually eat pretty well at a Bucky's and not have a ton of stuff. Like they even make zero sugar beef jerky.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So what is it? Is it a steakhouse? It's a gas station. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes.

Masey Hammons:
It's a social phenomenon. Their mascot is a beaver. I've heard of this.

Melanie Avalon:
I've probably been, oh, but O-B-U-C dash E-E. Yes. Okay. And it's like massive. I've probably been to one.

Masey Hammons:
Yeah so we spend about thirty minutes there everybody gets something to eat and then that's it we get our gas we get our food and then we had to our location and then we have a nice dinner and our team has a rule that we can't eat dinner anywhere that we can eat at home.

Melanie Avalon:
Mmm, that's cute. I like that. That's a good rule.

Masey Hammons:
Yeah, it's worked out for us and so because of that, my kids do a great job. I say kids, they're young adults, but they're kids to me. They will always find these really great like farm to table options. We always try to find somewhere that also has like gluten free options for some of our students. My kids are, they're really progressive eaters, much more than you would think of a normal college kid. And so because of them, like we've had some amazing meals while traveling. And then on Saturday and Sunday, I'll do sparkling water with instant coffee, which sounds terrible, but it's really delicious. And that I will pretty much fast until the end of the tournament that day, which is around five or six o 'clock. Then we do our award ceremony and then we go to dinner and we same thing. We try to find something that is quick, but also has a ton of options. So we'll usually end up at like a waffle house or something where you can just get eggs. And then we do it all over again the next day.

Melanie Avalon:
I just had like a meta moment realizing are you going to play this episode on one of the trips?

Masey Hammons:
Yes, I am. Hi, guys. Oh, no, no, we have a group chat. And as soon as I got your email, they were the first people like I didn't even tell forest first, I told my kids. So they all know that they're not allowed to text me right now, because this is I'm, I'm in the dark zone, but that I'll be back with them this afternoon. So yes, we have a full plan to have a listen party once this comes out.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I hope the listen party for everybody, for you guys listening right now is going really great. Thank you. That's awesome. I'm speaking to your future self. A fun fact about Waffle House, apparently, did you know they are the number one producer or seller of steak?

Masey Hammons:
I can buy that because when I go, I get steak and eggs there.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, who knew like most people would think it'd be like a chain steakhouse, but nope waffle house That's so amazing. So do you anticipate changing your window? Have you kind of settled into this routine?

Masey Hammons:
I think at this point, it really depends on like summer versus winter, like if you're a teacher, that's kind of the thing. So during the winter or the academic season, I have pretty much the same routine. So Monday through Wednesdays, PSMF, Thursday and Friday's regular intermittent fasting, and then Saturday, Sunday, just depends on whether or not I'm traveling. And then during the summer, when we're more social, we're spending more time at the gym, at the pool, those things. That's when we're more like we're just going to go with the flow of the day and figure it out as we go.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find being the debate teacher, do people want to debate you about fasting?

Masey Hammons:
all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man.

Masey Hammons:
do you sometimes yes so the the wonderful thing about this is you have this whole extra following of people who've never heard your show and it's just because i will text people and be like oh you asked me about something and they talked about it on the podcast today here's the information and i do that all the time so i have all of these friends who either engage in some sort of fasting or have increased their protein based off of the studies we've been hearing about on Vanessa's show it's really trickled to so many aspects of my life and i find that even the people who aren't listening with me like you're changing their life too so i hope you know that

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, thank you. And thank you for sharing it with people. That's really amazing. Yeah, I just imagine people probably want to engage with you on the debate side a lot. So one other thing that I'd love to touch on, and we talked about this before and you talked about it in like the submission form, but so you are currently on Manjaro, right? Yes. And for listeners, that is a GLP1 inhibitor that people talk about a lot. So why did you first go on it?

Masey Hammons:
So when I was meeting with the endocrinologist, one of the things that we learned and the functional practitioner really helped with this too, is that I have PCOS and with that comes metabolic syndrome. And then I had already previously been diagnosed with fatty liver disease. So in the genetic lottery, I like hit the lottery in a bad way. It was really, my body has been working against me for a long time. After doing just intermittent fasting for a long time, my doctor was still seeing that my numbers just weren't where we needed them to be. So we kind of started with metformin. And then once I started that, we noticed that it started to get better, but again, still we weren't seeing the kind of results that you would expect for somebody who is fasting and is taking metformin. So the first one we actually tried was Ozimpic. And it worked okay, but I will tell you of the two, Ozimpic kind of makes you not feel great. And for me, Monjoro just sort of slides into my daily life. I don't really notice the difference. And so once I started on the Monjoro and I've been on that for about a year, my fatty liver went from a stage five to a stage zero one. Wow. Yeah, so, and that's like one of the things that I think people don't realize is there are a lot of things that these GLP ones can do in a body that's not metabolically functioning well. And there are so many things about it, like the wellness clinics, all that stuff. So I know it's controversial, but I try to set that aside and remind people that we don't always get the bodies we want. So we have to work with the bodies that we have. Once that became a part of my life, it didn't even really change the pace that I lost weight because I was losing weight just doing the intermittent fasting alone. I lost probably about 35 pounds before I ever started a GLP one, but it changed the way that my body could function. And when I went off of the GLP one, switching from Ozimpic to Monjoro, I didn't change my diet. I didn't change my fasting pattern. I was still going to the gym and I gained 15 pounds in three weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, from Osundweg to Manjaro.

Masey Hammons:
Yes, and it was purely because whatever the GLP-1 does in my body, it helped it maintain the weight loss. So really for me, the GLP-1 is about my insulin resistance and my fatty liver disease, but it makes my body function on just a better level.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really excited to talk about this and I called it a GLP-1 inhibitor. I mean, GLP-1 agonist, what I find really interesting about it is a few things. It's really nice to hear that you have had really beneficial effects on the fatty liver and such from it. I like hearing that because I think they get kind of demonized a bit because of how people are abusing them sometimes for weight loss. What I find really interesting about it is they are such effective pharmaceuticals. They seem to be the first thing that has come out where people are actually losing weight and making changes. And at the same time, I have all of these concerns because people do seem to be losing muscle and things like that. But my biggest question is, I don't know. And I did recently, I'm not sure which episode, I'll put a link in the show notes, I had on the doctor who is the head of the Zero app right now. And we talked a lot about this, listeners can check out that episode. But I think a lot of people lose muscle. And I do wonder how much of that is the actual drug versus they're just not eating. Because if you're just not eating, especially not eating a lot of protein, you're definitely going to lose muscle. So it's nice to talk to you and hear your experience. So even with any appetite effects from it, it sounds like you always are really focusing on protein. Is that the case, like with what you're eating?

Masey Hammons:
Yes. So even part of my routine, I have Vanessa's protein in my coffee cup right now. So I have that and I have a chocolate caramel element in there and then my coffee. So for me, one of the things that I talk about a lot, listen, in my life I could think about 10 people off the top of my head that I know that go to a wellness clinic and get an injection. And I think the hard part of and it's the thing that most people worry about, especially people like you and I who know a lot of the research is what happens when you have to get off of it and you haven't been given the tools to make a lifestyle change. Like if my endocrinologist had put me on it and never sent me to the dietician, I would have never found this podcast and other ones that have taught me how to live a healthy lifestyle. I hope that one day my body can figure it out and I don't have to be on it forever. But when that day comes, I want to know that I have all the tools to continue living my life in a healthy way with everything that my body needs. And I think that's the struggle because not a lot of people are getting that in these wellness clinics. They get the, here's the thing. They eat less, but they don't stop drinking or they don't realize that they need more protein. They're not working out because they're tired because they're not getting enough protein. So it's this really strange cycle, but I think it's indicative of our pharmaceutical industry and our medical industry, which is like a whole other conversation. But it's definitely interesting because a lot of times I will have friends reach out and ask questions like, Oh, I know that you are on Monjuro. I need some help. What should I be eating? What should I be doing? And again, like that is also how you and Vanessa are affecting so many people in my life because I'm sharing the information that you guys are giving me. So that way I could try to help people make healthier choices and transition a little bit better.

Melanie Avalon:
I do think that that transition period when people are going off of it is probably so key, and I'll be really curious. You'll have to keep us updated if you do ever go off of them, you know, what that experience is like for you and what you what you do experience. We're seeing so many beneficial effects with weight loss with people on them. It would be so amazing if everybody could approach it the way you're approaching it, because I think that's the closest we could get to getting, you know, the most benefits with the least side effects that might be problematic. So yeah, exciting. Oh my goodness. Is there anything else in your fasting journey that you would like to share with listeners, anything that you think people should know about intermittent fasting from your experience?

Masey Hammons:
I think the number one thing from my experience is that we call it a journey because that's really what it is. You know, and other people know, we all start our health journey a long, long time before we ever find intermittent fasting. Once you get there, you're so fatigued from doing all the other things, from following all the other diets and whatever's popular at the time that if you're not careful, intermittent fasting can feel like one of those things too, like a fad. And if you only give it a couple weeks or even just a couple months, you might not really ever get there. So I would encourage people to really stick it out and, you know, read the information and figure out how to do it correctly and what works for their body. Because once you do and once it clicks, I can't imagine living my life any other way than this. And just a silly little thing that happened today. My mom called me before this, she wanted me to meet her and my aunt at the store to go shopping for some clothes for the wedding. And we saw this beautiful dress and my hair is purple right now. Oh, cool. Yeah, it's always some color, it's purple right now. And we saw this beautiful plum dress and it is a size six. And I said to my mom, I cannot fit into that. I will never fit into that, like that's not my size. And she said, go try it on anyway. And I tried it on and that little baby fit. And I think I almost cried in the fitting room because it's not really about the size, but it's about the fact that I could have never imagined feeling this healthy and fit in my life ever. And that's coming from a person who was an athlete in high school who has always gone to the gym and done all the right things. And when you get to this point, the excitement, the new things that you get to experience, like buying a size you've never bought before, it's joyous. And if you could see me right now, there are tears in my eyes talking about this because this is the journey that will change your life if you let it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Well, that is such a beautiful way to end this. And thank you for sharing your story because your story has changed. You are changing so many people's lives, honestly, like, you know, like, thank you for what you're well, first of all, thank you for having the courage that you've had in your journey and for keep on keeping on and sharing this with so many people. I'm just so grateful. And it's so, so inspiring. I so enjoyed this conversation. I can't wait for people to hear it. This is absolutely amazing. Like, just seriously, thank you.

Masey Hammons:
No, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, I'm trying to say I feel like I should have I'm deciding this in real time I feel like I should have like a certain way that I you know, I'll end this the way that I end My other show because I think it's so important So the last question that I ask every single guests on my other show which is the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast And it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Masey Hammons:
I think today, more than any other day, I am grateful for the community that I have, because in this journey, it's hard to find people that are willing to go along with all the crazy things. And my parents and Forest have watched me just dive right in, and they've never once made fun of me. They've never once criticized me. They have been okay to let me just figure it out on my own. And so because of them, I was able to stick to it. So I'm really grateful for my community.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that so much community is so so important and I think that's one of the ways and reasons that things like podcasts and Facebook groups and all of that can be so amazing in the intermittent fasting world because like social support can be a game changer into you know whether or not you can actually implement and stick to something so that's amazing about your personal community. So for listeners we will put in the show notes which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode391. There will be a full transcript, there will be links to everything that we talked about and there will be before and after pictures of Masey. So you can check those out and if you would like to be a guest like this on the show definitely submit your story. For that just go to ifpodcast.com/submit S-U-B-M-I-T and I think that is all the things. Thank you so much for your time Masey this was so so amazing definitely keep us updated on your journey and also I can't wait to see your wedding pictures and congrats in advance.

Masey Hammons:
Thank you so much. I'm so excited. This was amazing. Have a good rest of your day. You too

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Oct 06

Episode 390: Fasting For Athletic Performance, Ketosis, Overeating, Food Choice, Improving Satiety, Crash Dieting, Homeschooling, Preschool, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

International society of sports nutrition position stand: ketogenic diets

Welcome to Episode 390 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Listener Q&A: Brittany - Why am I not losing?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 390 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 390 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. And for listeners, Vanessa and I were just chatting beforehand, and I was so intrigued that I was like, we should start recording so people can hear this. So you are thinking or are going to start homeschooling?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we've been planning it for a while, and this is it. It's happening now, so it's almost September. I traditionally always started school in September, so I'm starting his preschool program, so Luca’s three. So he basically has three years until he would start school officially. So he's in the preschool years now. So I am starting with him in a few weeks, his first day of school, his first year of school. I'm trying to get him starting to warm up to the idea that he's starting school. A lot of his friends already go to school. A lot of his friends, some of his friends are starting school soon, so I want him to also have that first day of school feeling, and just getting everything ready. So I have the whole year's curriculum already set to go and everything. I'm just, I was telling you, I'm ordering all the books. So each unit that we have, you basically go through different things, like the first unit we're doing is apples. So there's lots of things related to the letter A and apples, and then you have to get all these different books to go with it. So I was ordering all the books, and I was like looking at the book list, and there's 190 books that I need to get for his first year. 190? Yeah, because there's basically a different book. One for every letter. Yeah, there's one for, so there's 19 modules. We cover all 26 letters. We're gonna be learning a lot about letters this year. Not so much like math, although I will personally add in some math, because he loves numbers. But it's not really about full -on academics yet, because he's only three. At this age, so I've been learning a lot about homeschool in the last months, because we're planning to do it with our children. As long as it's working out, like we're gonna test it with preschool, see how it goes, and if we can keep up with it, we'll keep going with it. But I'm basically learning to become a teacher at the same time as doing all the other stuff that I'm doing, but what's interesting about it, and I think what makes it workable is if you look at their ages, how much time you actually spend in the whole day doing class. And we have some good friends who do it, and for their teenagers, they do about three to four hours of full -on class, and the rest of the day, they can go, because they live in Puerto Rico, they can go to the beach, and they can go, or they can go work on their side businesses, or they can go do all this stuff. For someone Luca's age, it's about 30 minutes. So what I'm doing with him right now is preparing him, so we do a lot of reading aloud in the morning, and then he does some basic stuff, like coloring different types of fruits or dinosaurs, and then we count after how many, like it's really basic stuff, but yeah, I'm ordering all the books, and it's pretty fun, and we're getting all the school supplies, which is my number one favorite thing to do. When I was a kid, when we had to go get school supplies and go to the art supply store, it was the biggest high for me ever.

Melanie Avalon:
So, oh my goodness, like the moments. Okay, wait, cause you grew up like all over. Where were you during that phase of your life?

Vanessa Spina:
i was always in the same school system though so up until grade nine i was in a french lisa which is a french private school and i stayed in that system everywhere i went and then in grade nine i switch to the international school system which is an american curriculum and then i stayed in that in beijing and in the philippines so i was doing like a same similar curriculum to what people were doing in the us it was the same but the french school that i went to they had so many school supplies it was insane how many supplies we had to get so we would go i remember specifically being in canada to your question when we were doing this and we would go to a couple different art stores and just get everything like there were just so many supplies and so many fresh notebooks and we had even we had these like architecture classes that we would get these special stylo pens for and everything and i yeah i just loved it i loved all the school supplies the fresh books i think probably most kids like that

Melanie Avalon:
I think like the best moment was, okay, so did they have Crayola, like the brand of crayons? Yes. Oh yeah. I got that for Luca also too. Okay. So like the moment of like, how many crayons do you get? Like, do you get the one with the sharpener in it that has like all the crayons? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I just love all that stuff, so it's fun to deal with him.

Melanie Avalon:
I would be so stressed because inevitably, with the list, we would just go to like Target or Walmart, but there would always be like something I didn't have from the list. And I would be so stressed about it. My mom would be like, Melanie, you don't have to have everything on the first day. And I would be like a wreck like this, like every year. I'm so rules oriented.

Vanessa Spina:
No, that's how I feel right now because it's harder to find supplies here because we don't have Target or Michaels or anything. So I have to go to these little shops, which is like, okay, that's the fun thing about Europe, right? They don't have those big box stores. They have all these cute little shops, but you have to go to all these little shops and all the little shops are really expensive because they're little shops. So I went to this one store and they had pipe cleaners and these fluffy balls. Both are on the list of what I need to get and they were like $20, it's like, okay. So I'm trying to order some stuff right now to my mother -in -law because she's coming soon. So I'm like, I feel really bad. I messaged her today. I was like, I've got like 20 books, I need you to bring in your suitcase, but I only got the paperback versions of everything, not the board books, which are extremely heavy. And then I managed to find about a third of the books on Kindle Unlimited, which I have a subscription to. So it's not going to be as tactile as having the actual book, but at least I have the book and we can put it on my iPad so it'll have color and stuff. Yeah, I'm nervous. I'm very like nervous about it because I'm nervous about his whole homeschooling journey. But I'm starting to, on Saturday, actually, we're meeting up with a group of other moms who also have three -year -olds who are doing homeschooling. So I think having more community will definitely help because there's a lot of online community. I have found so much online community. The homeschooling community has grown to something like five million children now are homeschooled because it exploded during COVID. And so there's so many resources, there's so much free resources like Khan Academy. And we just did, Khan Academy just had a summer camp, which I did with Luca, and it was really fun. They had Space Week and Science Week and Animals Week and stuff, and he really liked that stuff. So the community is huge and it's really growing. And I can understand why it's growing also, especially because there's lots of strange things happening in schools these days and not so safe things. So I think a lot of people are wanting to go that route more and more.

Melanie Avalon:
I wanted to be homeschooled so bad. Oh, really? Yeah, because I wanted to be acting. So I wanted to be homeschooling and doing community theater.

Vanessa Spina:
Get a private tutor kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Well, I just, I really wanted to do community theater and do day shows. Yep. Instead I was, I went to private school. I would do community theater, but then it's like in the evening. So, but, oh wow, that's exciting. So if you actually do him the whole, like the kids the whole way through, then it'll be, that'll be a lot of time, right?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it'll grow. It's going to be easier now. I can do it in the mornings, but a lot of times my mornings are when I prep for podcasting and my interviews. So I'm a little nervous about how it's all going to work. But I think especially like the first year, you know, preschool is going to be okay. And then I think at some point I'll have to make a decision. Like, do I keep doing this? Do I scale back professionally or do we send him to school? And there's some wonderful schools here. You know, in Prague, there's some really wonderful schools, you know, that could be an option. But I think if we can, you know, we want to make it happen. So we'll see how it goes and how it works. And we definitely he has so much, he has so many like friend groups and play groups and stuff. So he gets a ton of social interaction. I think that's the main thing people worry about, you know, when you homeschool. He's not just like at home with us all the time. Like he has a lot of interaction with other kids, but it's going to be interesting to see how this year goes and see, you know, how if he's able to do it. So it'll be a good test for all of us. I would love to be able to do all of it, but we'll see.

Melanie Avalon:
Cool. Well, I applaud you. I cannot do any of that. So that's amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, they're so special to us. And I know everyone's children, you know, are special to them, but we really want to spend as much time with them as we can as well. So homeschooling, I think, helps accomplish that. But whether or not it's feasible and manageable with both of us having professional careers as well, we'll see. Podcasting and the way that my work is definitely helps a lot with it. But that's really cute that you wanted to be homeschooled.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yep, I really did. I think I like seriously considered it, like I think my parents considered it at one point.

Vanessa Spina:
When I was growing up, it was like, it was kind of like kids who were homeschooled were a little bit ostracized. Like I remember going to girl guides. I don't know if that's what we called it in Canada, like girl scouts. Girl guides? Oh, okay. And in my girl scouts/girl guides, there were some girls who were homeschooled and everyone was like, those are the girls who are homeschooled, you know? It's like, they probably were super cool. But you know, like people were weird about it when I was a kid. I think it's probably less a stigma now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm so disconnected from the schooling system now. I think that was the vibe, but I just wanted to do it and I knew I would have my community theater people.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, a lot of times you register, like usually the regulations are you register with a local school, you meet with them and we go over the curriculum and then they go in for testing. So that's a good way that you can like make sure that they're on track with, you know, what they're supposed to be learning.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know nothing. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And people are interested in it. It's really neat how many resources there are these days. Super cool. Yeah. What else is new in your life? Are you getting some fresh school supplies with these?

Melanie Avalon:
Literally, the only time, the only time I'm aware that school, I forget that school is like, I forget about like that age group of kids because they're like in school during the day. Yeah, I like don't see them. The only time I see them is when summer hits and I see them like around, I'm like, oh, that generation, I forgot about them. And then, but I see like school supply section and like Target and it makes me so happy and I want to go buy like folders. I actually did just order all these Lisa Frank folders. I love the Lisa Frank when I was little. I was like, I need some happy folders in my life. So I have this like sparkly unicorn Lisa Frank folder that I got on eBay for way too much money because it's probably like vented.

Vanessa Spina:
I just got like a unicorn colored one. It's like a shiny. I don't know what that color is

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh, do we have the same one? Mine's shiny. Is it texture shiny? Is it textured? Does it have a deer in the background?

Vanessa Spina:
some frogs. I don't think they have Luca Frank here, but it's like that. I don't know what that color is, but you know what it kind of is like shiny like a unicorn or like a hologram, like silvery pink and purple. I don't know what that color is.

Melanie Avalon:
like iridescent. Yeah, iridescent. I sent you a picture of my Lisa Frank unicorn. There's like little rabbits and ducks and frogs.

Vanessa Spina:
an owl. That takes me right back to when I was little and I wanted all the Lisa Frank things. Lisa Frank.

Melanie Avalon:
was amazing. Yeah. I'm glad it's still around. You have to get on eBay and I think it literally said vintage folder. I don't know. These people were ahead of their times. They were like, someday these folders are gonna be worth something. Yeah. So I'm good. Just quick updates. I thought I was about to release my EMF blocking headphones and then I was... I have not gotten the rose gold ones to the place I want them to be at. So we're working on them still for manufacturing. So, but I'm wearing mine right now. And in the supplement world, I don't want to say it too early because I don't want to jinx it, but I'm hoping to launch digestive enzymes in the fall. So we shall see. I'll update more as I feel more secure about the timeline of that. Yeah, I'm really excited. So people can get all the updates for that at avalonx .us/email list. Oh, also friends, check out my new podcast, The Mind Blown Podcast with Scott Emmons. We are having the time of our lives talking about so many fun, different topics, things like the Dyatlov Pass incident and the Cecil Hotel in LA and the Mandela fact, and then random listicles like... things that vanish that you didn't realize are no longer around and it's just, we're having, it's, it's a really fun show. So it's called the mind blown podcast. So definitely check that out. Okay. Shall we jump into some fasting things? Yeah. Sounds great. So to start things off, I found another fun fasting review that we can discuss. This was called intermittent fasting. Does it affect sports performance? A systemic review. So this was a review published in nutrients in January of 2024. And it looked at studies from 2013 until today. I liked that they actually picked a start date. Like they didn't look at any studies ever because they were saying that around that time is when studies started coming out more about this, but it looked at 25 articles and the people in these studies, so that when you combine them all together, it was mostly athletes, but if not athletes, it was people who were physically active. Most of the studies, the people were practicing a 16 eight approach to fasting. So fasting 16 hours and then eating in an eight hour time window. A few of them were Ramadan, which ended up being 14 eight. So fasting for 14 hours and then eating in an eight hour window. And then one study wasn't quote overnight fast, which I, I actually have to look at the specifics of that because I'm not sure what that entails. What they found, they were looking in particular at how intermittent fasting, I mean, you can guess from the title, how it affects sport performance, their overall takeaway, which was super nice to hear it was that it's beneficial for body composition, does not reduce physical performance, does maintain lean body mass and does improve maximum power. And this actual different types of performance they were looking at were all over the board. So it was like cycling tests and sprint tests and treadmill tests. They also looked at stress tests on the different participants. Some were on interval training. Eight of the studies looked at muscle strength and endurance tests as well as peak power performance and average power. So going back again to what they were, what they found with the body composition. So they found in general that intermittent fasting did lead to a reduction in body weight and that that was beneficial for exercise performance. They said, I found this was interesting. So they said intermittent fasting could be considered an adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat percentage to an adequate number for athletes specifically. So that's between six to 12% body fat for men and 12 to 18% body fat for women. And then during that maintain lean muscle mass, which is just so, so important. They did note that, and we talked a little bit about this last week, but they did note that the inevitable calorie restriction that results from intermittent fasting is probably a key factor in these beneficial effects and exercise performance, even if it's not intentional. So basically people tend to non -voluntarily reduce their calorie restriction, even if they're not being told to in the study. So it tended to be around 10 to 20% per week, that people would just naturally reduce their, their calories, which as we've talked about a lot on this show is one of the amazing things about fasting that you can do calorie restriction without feeling like you're doing it and kind of just do it naturally, which is very, very cool. Other health things that they found were really important for exercise performance in general. So improved insulin sensitivity, reduced inflammation and strengthening of the immune system, which they were talking about was pretty important for preventing injury and also for recovery. So on the inflammation front, they found some of the studies showed that intermittent fasting activates a lot of mechanisms that enhance the immune system in general. So these are things like interleukin six going down in the fasting group and up in the normal group, which is an inflammatory cytokine. So it's nice to see that going down and especially with something like exercise, because we know that exercise is an inflammatory process for the body. So it's nice to have a, an anti -inflammatory response to that in general as well. Fasting had a beneficial effect on C -reactive protein, which can also indicate inflammation levels. And in particular, that was in a study and people who were fasting for Ramadan and it was football players. And there were actually two studies about that. And then this is interesting. So one of the probably key metabolic factors affected by fasting that could be having a really beneficial effect on performance is a specific hormone called adiponectin. So it's actually a hormone, it's affected by our circadian rhythm. So our, when we're asleep, when we're awake, and it's also affected by when, when we eat or not, and when we fast. And it is really important because low levels of it are associated with obesity, oxidative stress, and insulin resistance, which is not good. Higher levels are associated with insulin, insulin sensitivity, specifically in our fat tissue, which is awesome. So fasting seems to be a way to actually boost levels of adiponectin. So that might be having something with the, something might be going on there with the performance. And then something they did note was there weren't really intense negative side effects, except for some of the Ramadan studies, but they were positing that could be related to other things because Ramadan is a dry fast. So it could have been due to like electrolyte imbalance and other factors surrounding Ramadan in particular, not necessarily intermittent fasting per se. So what they ultimately concluded was they said that the heterogeneous samples make it difficult to have a definitive conclusion, but the data is favorable and could be recommended to follow intermittent fasting without reducing performance and athletes. So I really liked this review because, you know, we get so many questions about fasting and exercise performance and muscle and endurance. And it's, you know, nice to see that in general, intermittent fasting seems to pair very, very well with, with all types of exercise. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I thought that was such an amazing summary of everything. I love the findings in it. You know, I love that it showed that it definitely did not have any deleterious effects on muscle mass and it helps with body re -composition and that that's definitely, you know, what drew, what was part of what drew me to it, you know, knowing that, and that you can safely do it without, you know, risking any of your muscle or your performance. It's really interesting too, because the International Society of Sports Nutrition recently came out with a position stand on ketogenic diets. I wonder if they did also an intermittent fasting, but they basically said that with ketogenic diets, it's basically neutral to negative. The key point is that it's neutral and not all of the research that they used had athletes who were fat adapted. So that's a big problem with studies on ketogenic athletes is they're not fat adapted or they'll, they'll do a crossover study. They'll get them to do it one way, be filled from carbs or fat, but it takes at least four to eight weeks to become fat adapted for your body to adapt and become really fuel efficient, you know, running on fat. But anyway, they basically officially stated that it was neutral and there's some other interesting researchers. So I think I think people are coming around to the idea that these strategies doesn't have to be necessarily negative. I think the main risk for athletes with ketogenic diets or intermittent fasting is under fueling. And I think that that does cause critiques. Because, you know, when you are an athlete, you need a lot of energy. And so if you are doing intermittent fasting, people tend to eat less, people tend to also eat less calories when they're doing keto. So I think that is something to pay attention to for athletes is to is to not under fuel because that could affect performance or it could affect someone's cycle. And that's usually where the critiques of it come in.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, thank you for sharing that. The problem, like you were mentioning, I think, with a lot of these studies on keto is because of how long it takes people often to adapt. And so it's harder to draw definitive conclusions from a shorter term study, which the really intense randomized controlled trials tend to be on the shorter side. Yeah, it'd be nice if there are more study. And maybe there are, but it'd be nice if there are more studies where they study people already on ketogenic diets, so then they're like already fat adapted, and then start the study. That'd be really nice.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so Dr. Philip Prince, he did one of those with Dr. Andrew Kootenick. I just interviewed Andrew last week and Dr. Philip Prince, my episode with him came out a few weeks ago and they also found that it was neutral. So that's the big finding is like, okay, so there could be some sports where you might get a slight advantage from being fat fueled because there are activities where if you are at 60 to 70% of your VO2 max, which is the maximum amount of oxygen that you can utilize during exercise. If you're fueled from fat, you could have a bit of an advantage here. That's what is sort of, I've always thought, and some people also think, but the main finding they had was that it's not a negative. So you can basically choose, if you're an athlete, to be fueled from carbs, to be fueled from fat, you are going to get similar results. And I think that it does two things. First of all, it challenges the negative viewpoint that people have on doing sport and not being super high carb, which is like a big critique that people who are always favoring carbs for athleticism, like you're going to have an advantage if you're carb fueled, et cetera. So not only do you not necessarily have an advantage from having carbs in your diet, but also being fat fueled is not going to negatively impact you. And I think just that says a lot. And I think that that's ultimately what I think we should all be sort of, the way that we should be looking at different dietary approaches when it comes to carbs, high carb, high fat, and this is something you and I talk about all the time, it's like choose your own adventure with your fuel, just prioritize protein and your outcome, whether it's fat loss or sports performance is probably going to be the same because they're just energy. They're just different forms of energy. You know, one may keep your insulin lower, as we talked about, but another approach might keep your insulin higher, but then you're not eating fat. So they have their different effects on the body, but physiologically, it's basically a wash, like whichever route you choose. And I think that's sort of a theme that we're seeing, whether it comes to fat loss or sports performance, you know, it's really the same and it's logical to me. I think you can achieve great results with different approaches. They have their advantages. Although the ISSN did say that although keto may be neutral, it is better for fat loss. That's interesting. They said it is better for fat loss. And I think that's sort of something that I've, you know, definitely known for a while. I do think it can be better for fat loss, but I think that is primarily because yet you do it's not so much about the fact that you get into a fat burning state because we can go back and forth on all the different mechanisms that are happening. I think it's just that people eat less when they're eating more protein and a little bit more fat, but it depends on the person, right? Because some people could also overeat that way potentially. When did that come out? Recently, yes. And I had the lead investigator on that who was Alex Leaf. I just had him on the podcast. That episode I think is coming out in a couple of weeks. By the time this is out, it'll probably be out. But my most interesting thing from that paper to me was that there's something called post -exercise ketosis. And I started testing this in myself and I did a workout. We did like a three hour hike last weekend and I had had a small breakfast, really small, but I had had breakfast, so I was not in the fasted state. And when we got home, I checked my ketones and I was in ketosis. And he was talking about this post -exercise ketosis because athletes use so much energy. A lot of athletes are in ketosis a lot more than they realize. It's also interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, I wish we could have a continuous ketone monitor like the way we have a continuous glucose monitor.

Vanessa Spina:
They're definitely coming and continuous insulin monitor would be amazing too.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know I'm continuous. I think like lactate might be coming as well. I'm right now I'm listening to the Peter T as episode. Are you about lactate?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I've just been focusing on lactate a lot recently because I had Kristy Strohstruck. Her episode came out on my podcast yesterday and she's studying lactate right now. She's doing a big study on that. So yeah, it was interesting timing. And she was a mentee of Dr. Dom D 'Agostino. And I remember a few years ago, he kept bringing up lactate. And he was like, I think in the future, a lot of people are going to be looking at lactate, which is like, interesting that he knew that.

Melanie Avalon:
It was a long time ago when I first got interested in lactate and I had maybe not quite as predict the as Dom, but we're thinking like there's something here like this is interesting like it's that it's such a solid fuel for the mitochondria and we don't ever really talk about it much. Short term of course awesome well thank you for sharing all that I love that you interview all these researchers and can share all this information it's so helpful so fascinating.

Vanessa Spina:
for geeks like us. I love to geek out on this. I love that you appreciate it. But yeah, it's a great study and I'm glad we opened the episode with it. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
awesome. So, I do wonder with these studies in general with systemic reviews and meta -analyses, I wonder, like, could it have gone a different way? Like, could they have done the same title, intermittent fasting? Does it affect sports performance and systemic review? And just pick different filter criteria for the studies they picked and then pad different conclusions. I agree and I love the results, but I always, with all systemic reviews, everywhere, I wonder this. I'm like, how much do I act? Like, how do I even know, you know, what to trust and what not to trust? It'll be interesting to see the future of studies and how AI can help with that a little bit, like reanalyzing data and things like that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because Harvard just released a paper. They went back and reanalyzed the data showing that eating red meat increases mortality. Oh, what did it find? They found that it increases your lifespan by 6%. Oh, my gosh. See? Yeah, that just came out on the weekend. Oh, man. That's amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm. It makes you wonder. It makes me wonder, yeah. Oh, what I really wonder about is, say, in another universe, what if all the studies were published that were done? Because, you know, so many are, like, not published because they, like, don't get the outcome they want or, for whatever reason, they have to stop it because of whatever, whatever. Like, if everything ever was published, I wonder what would look a little bit different. Definitely. Thanks to Ponder. Shall we answer some listener questions? Yes, I'd love to. All right. Would you like to read?

Vanessa Spina:
Britney's question. Yes. So our first question comes to us from Britney subject. Why am I not losing? Hi, I've been doing if for about two months now, I do an 18 six every day and I'm super strict about sticking to my 2pm to 8pm window. But I haven't lost any weight in three weeks. In fact, I'm up to pounds. I've also been super hungry in these last three weeks. Am I not eating the right foods? Do I need to be more strict about eating clean? I thought the beauty of IF was that in my window, I didn't have to be as strict on what I eat. Is this the problem? Would you please email me if you answer my question as I am new to the pod and playing catch up. Thanks, Brit.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, Brittany. Thank you for your question. So sorry that we did not email back, although I think when people email us, they get an auto response, but we're answering it now. So I feel like this is one of the questions about intermittent fasting. One of the foundational issues to address, which is basically, yes, the beauty of IF in general is that you can make these changes and often see weight loss, beneficial effects without changing what you're eating. That said, you might need to adjust what you're eating. And if you're asking the question, not always, but often, if you're asking the question, that probably is the answer. So you're being really, really strict about your time, your two to eight. So you're not really making any adjustments to what you're eating. And there can be a ton of magic if you change what you're eating. And it doesn't have to be crazy. You don't have to completely change your diet and be really intense and all of those things. But if you haven't made any adjustments at all to what you're eating, there's so much magic in just changing the types of foods that you're eating. And it doesn't have to even be restrictive. So rather than cutting out things, you could just have a paradigm shift where if you're eating processed foods, for example, maybe you just switched to eating whole foods only. So real foods in their real form. That can be magical. Or you could try a macro approach, like we've been talking about, like lower carb and or I guess not and lower carb or lower fat. But if you've been going three weeks and gaining weight, and I'm assuming we have to ask about body composition. So is this fat that you're gaining or is it possible that you're gaining muscle? That could be a possibility. Sounds like intuitively, that's probably not the case because I feel like you probably might be picking up on that. But that's the first question is what type of weight are you gaining? But I actually I am sort of haunted by this question a little bit because I've just been getting it for years and years and years, which is fasting is supposed to do all the magic by itself. So why do we have to change what we're eating? You can still eat enough in a small eating window to, you know, at the very least, make fasting, not give you the results that you're looking for. So I would just encourage a lot of mindset shifts here. Also the fact just to wait just to touch on it really quickly, you said that you're super hungry. So what basically what you're doing is probably not working. You said am I not eating the right foods? I would really, really look at the foods. So focusing on protein, like we talk about all the time, that might be a good place to start. So starting with protein could be a really, really great place to start. There will be a ton of magic for a lot of people if you make that the focus of your meal and then fill out beyond there. I would actually, I would probably start with that. Like try going on a whole foods form of protein approach and see what happens. And maybe because, you know, you're being so strict about your fasting window, maybe taking some of the stress around that and shifting some of the focus to the food choices. I just think there's a lot of potential here, but I'm really haunted by this question, Vanessa, because it does feel contradictory. You know, we often talk about fasting, doing all the magic by itself, but then also sometimes people need to adjust their food choices. What are your thoughts on that?

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely agree. I think if what you're doing is leaving you hungry and not getting results, then I would definitely change up your macros and a good starting place. If you haven't done this already is using a tracking app and setting your grams of protein first. So you could do one gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight and just use that as a starting place and try to hit that every day and try to eat your protein first or at least every meal that you have in your eating window, especially the first one, try to hit at least like 35 to 40 grams of protein at your first meal. And it'll go a long way to making sure that you feel satisfied and not thinking about food. Protein is the game changer when it comes to feeling high levels of satiety, not feeling hungry, not thinking about food. I mean, it can also be other micronutrients, but protein really is the biggest macro because you have to get protein every day from exogenous sources, sources outside of your body, because we have nine essential amino acids your body cannot make on its own. So you have to get those from food sources every day. And most people tend to feel hungry until they get their protein needs met. So usually feeling hungry after you've had meals is because your body is trying to get more protein. So if it signals hunger, it knows if you eat something else, it might get some more protein. So that's just the, this is the concept of protein leverage and it's been proven in an incredible amount of research showing animals, humans, even insects will forage and look for food until we have our protein needs met. So if you get that out of the way, you prioritize protein. It goes a long way to helping with satiety. It also secretes a lot of satiety hormones like GLP one CCK it signals leptin, which helps you to feel fuller. And it also signals a few other satiety hormones that work on the brain. Some of them like GLP one are secreted in the gut and others have effects on the brain like leptin. So it is really powerful for hunger. I love the whole foods recommendation. Whole foods are higher in micronutrients, higher in fiber. Fiber is also something that makes you feel full for longer and it helps you also to, you know, maintain a caloric deficit so that you can get the fat loss that you're looking for while not feeling hungry all the time. So I would definitely try that out and see how it goes. I mean, that's definitely my, my top recommendation when it comes to achieving some body re -composition, some fat loss and also feeling satisfied ketones can also really help. So if you've ever considered keto, that's another option. Like we were just saying the ISSN just said it's the best diet for fat loss. So it's a great way to boost your metabolic flexibility, tap into your fat stores, become fat fueled. And that means that once you set your protein target, you can either temporarily do a lower protein amount, which is going to be probably closer to half a gram of protein per pound. And then having a restricted amount of carbs for a few weeks and filling in a little bit more of the calories from healthy fats that can really help get you going, especially if you know you've been stalled or kind of not, you said you gained a couple of pounds, so it hasn't really been going the way that you want. So the advantage with keto is ketones also are huge in terms of satiety. So you have the protein, which gives you the thermic effect of protein. You have the ketones, all of these things really help with satiety. And it sounds like that's something that you've been struggling with. So those are some different ideas you could try out for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. Thank you so much. And it's so interesting. I it blows my mind to think about, and I guess I used to be this way, people who haven't realized the importance of protein with satiety. Like I would be so hungry. If I didn't eat a high protein diet, I would be so hungry, like so hungry. And it's really magical, you know, when people realize just how satiating it is. Do you have esoteric thoughts on like this concept of, you know, we say fasting is all you have to do, but then people do need to change what they're eating.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember listening back to the podcast when you were hosting with Jin and I remember that being a big emphasis, especially from Jin, that you can just eat whatever you want and do this fasting throughout the day and you will lose weight. But fundamentally, the intermittent fasting is helping create a caloric deficit. You can either create a caloric deficit through doing exercise and burning more calories or through eating less calories. That's really the only way you create a caloric deficit is those two ways. By having an eating window and a fasting window, you're creating a caloric deficit, but it's much easier and a lot of research supports that the compliance is much higher when people do caloric restriction with this fasting window. I think part of that is probably some level of like ketosis people get into towards the end of the fast and those ketones help suppress appetite. A lot of people are not hungry in the morning too, so it makes sense to delay your first meal a little bit unless you wake up ravenous, which that's only happened to me a couple times in my life, like when I was during breastfeeding, like around pregnancy. Other times, I don't wake up ravenous. I usually am ravenous for coffee, but that's about it. I think the ketosis is probably what helps people get through the fasting period, but it's a much easier way of doing caloric restriction. Maybe it feels like magic because of the ketones, because ketones are magical molecules to me. They are something that humans are designed to produce in terms of how our physiology is because we've always historically went for periods of time without food and could very easily tap into our fat stores and create ketones for brain fuel, but your cognition also really improves when you're in ketosis, which is a nice side effect. I think why people feel so good and so energetic and their brains are really well -fueled when they're fasting throughout the day. I don't know. I think that's probably what I would attribute the magic to, but I never really was a big fan of the concept of just fasting all day and then just eating whatever you want and getting results because that to me is more akin to a crash diet. Some people may get results on that on the scale, but if you're truly assessing the quality of that fat loss, a lot of research shows that crash diets have upwards of 40% lean body mass being lost. You're stepping on the scale, seeing the number go down, but close to half of that is muscle or lean mass, so you're going to end up in a worse position after because you're going to have less lean body mass, which is that metabolically active tissue that helps you have a higher metabolic rate. I'm not in favor of those kinds of crash diets where people just restrict calories but just eat whatever they want and that not being whole foods, being more hyper palatable processed foods. The other reason I don't like that, not only does it affect body composition quite poorly, but it also makes people really hungry because I think most people don't know that hyper palatable processed foods are designed to leave you unsatisfied and craving more. They are not just designed to taste amazing, they're designed to make you feel like you need more, so you buy more of them. They're not designed to make you feel satisfied, protein is, and whole foods are, like with lots of fiber and lots of micronutrients, but processed foods are not, they're designed to leave you wanting. I think if people knew that, if more people really knew that those foods leave you unsatisfied and just starting to frame it that way in your head, like, what do I eat that makes me feel satisfied versus what do I eat that leaves me unsatisfied and then making your choices based on that, I think most people would want to feel satisfied and get on with their day rather than just having a momentary bliss that makes you wanting more at the end.

Melanie Avalon:
And I could not agree more. And related to that, we had an episode a few episodes ago with Dr. Naomi Parela at the Xero app. And it was interesting, something that you said reminded me of this, because we talked about GLP -1 inhibitors and like Ozimpic and semiglutide. She was talking about how when you're on those, for example, you like it completely kills people's appetite. So they're not eating, but it actually creates a high insulin state. So people are in this super severely calorie restricted state, but their insulin is high, so they can't really tap into fat. So then they're just losing muscle. And that's why people on those drugs, it's really, really important that they are on a high protein diet and creating muscle synthesis, signaling through protein, exercise, things like that. Because so many people on those drugs are losing a ton of weight, but it's a lot of muscle loss, not fat loss, which is really, really scary. And then they come out of it having lost muscle, not fat, and it's kind of like you're worse off than before. Something you said, remind me of that. I think you were talking about the type of fat that people lose or the type of weight people lose. The quality of the weight loss, yes.

Vanessa Spina:
the quality of the weight loss. That is the biggest problem. And unfortunately, those, a lot of the people who are taking osempic are the people who are not eating protein and doing resistance training. So they're not getting that muscle protein synthesis signaling because it's like a lot

Melanie Avalon:
of people who what they're, and I don't want to make blanket statements, but it is a lot of people who have not found the dietary approach that works for them. Like what they're doing is not working. So presumably they're probably not, they're probably not doing the things we talk about all the time on here because if they were doing that, that would probably be working. And I don't want to make blanket statements, but in general, you know, in general it's probably a lot of people who have not tried the things that actually would work. So then they just go on these drugs and then lose their appetite, don't eat the food. But then also, I thought that was so interesting though, because it's kind of like being in the facet state, except the opposite with like high insulin. So it's a really scary metabolic state to be in. We shall see. It's interesting though, because they do seem to have a lot of other potentially beneficial effects like helping people with addictions and things like that. And I'm really intrigued by the whole thing. Are they a big thing over there?

Vanessa Spina:
there in Prague? I don't know. Like, I mean, no one I know, no one that I know is digging them. I've had some friends here recently start carnivore. I've had some friends get into CGM's and not through me, this is just through other people that they follow, but no one that I know of. But I mean, in general, I don't know if it's a thing here. I think people in Europe are generally more metabolically fit, not in the UK. I've seen that. But in Europe, people are a lot more lean. And a lot of people walk everywhere. Like, it's quite, I would say, a lot of people are very, most people are very athletic, and it's rare to see someone in public that you would think, wow, that person is obese or morbidly obese. So I mean, it's not that they don't exist here, they're definitely are metabolic issues, because there's a lot of like bread and beer and definitely, you know, consumption of processed foods as well. But people in general, I think are so active, that, you know, there's just less like car driving and less convenience. So I think those, there's maybe a little bit less of those like Western comforts in terms of how people get around. And there's more of a traditional diet, like people eat more protein, they eat more organ meats. I don't know, we've talked about that before. Like every restaurant you go to here has organ meats on it, like, in terms of like a pate, a liver pate, or even just like soup with liver dumplings, like that's almost every restaurant. Yeah, it's really, really common. People eat more nose to tail, just culturally have less problems with obesity, but it could be coming, there's more and more fast food places all the time. But you think the movement part, you know, could be the reason, and a little bit more of the traditional diet adherence. So maybe in the future, but I would bet it's going to come to Asia if it hasn't already, because they're dealing with a lot more metabolic issues with their affluence, not Japan, but China, and other parts of Southeast Asia. Did you see?

Melanie Avalon:
See that TikTok influencer recently, I think she was Asian and she was eating and she died on the TikTok. Sorry, what? There was this TikTok influencer recently. I think she was Asian, but her thing that she was like an eater, like that's what her channel was. Like she just ate food. And so she died while eating. Oh, she over -eat. Yeah. A, it's really sad and B, it just, I don't know. It's really sad and it just speaks to, it's sad to me that like the food industry and like the concept of food has just become this obstacle and challenge and, you know, set up against us. Like we, like you were talking about, like this food is like created to make us want to keep eating it, which is crazy. And I've mentioned this before, but Mark Schatzger, who wrote The Dorito Effect and The End of Waving, I think I told you his theory about why people are overweight in the U .S. and not Europe. No. He compares like the dietary composition and he talks about how, you know, is it the gluten and the grains? No, they have gluten and grains. Is it the macros? No. You know, it's similar. Is it the fat content? No. Like what is the difference? Is it the calorie miles? Like what is it? He thinks it's the fortification of foods. He has a really, really interesting theory about this signaling from foods that are fortified with all these vitamins and how it just like freaks out and messes up our metabolisms. It's really, really interesting. It's like it's out there. Like I don't think anybody else is making this theory, but even if it's not the case, I think so much of it does go back to these processed foods. So and I was just thinking about you were talking about the liver meat and the there's such a difference in sorry, the liver and the organs. There's such a difference in eating, you know, nutrient rich foods where the nutrients are coming from the whole foods form. The fact that can have on satiety is just really incredible. So okay, any, any more thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I think that pretty much covers it for me.

Melanie Avalon:
me too. Now I want to go to Prague and like look at the restaurant menus and order something. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode390. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And we are currently taking submissions. If you would like to tell your own intermittent fasting story on the show and be interviewed by one of us, definitely submit to us. You can go to ifpodcast.com/submit, and there is a submission form there. And yeah, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
before we go. I had such a great time answering these questions and talking about these topics with you and looking forward to the next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, thank you so much. Happy homeschool adventures. And I will talk to you next week. Okay, sounds great.

Vanessa Spina:
Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Sep 29

Episode 389: Caloric Restriction Vs. Fasting, Triggering Protein Muscle Synthesis, HDAC Inhibition, Autophagy, mTor, Food Cravings, Avocados, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Impact of Intermittent Fasting and/or Caloric Restriction on Aging-Related Outcomes in Adults: A Scoping Review of Randomized Controlled Trials

Welcome to Episode 389 0f The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

Listener Q&A: Rebeca - Avocados, avocados, avocados

Listener Q&A: Shari - If I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weight lifting session or complete my 16 hour fast?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 389 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 389 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? Doing great. How are you? I am good. I had the moment of all moments. You might have seen it on my Instagram, but I saw Adina Menzel live. Do you know her? I don't. She's the original. Do you know Wicked?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, the musical. That was really popular.

Melanie Avalon:
She's the original alphabet and she's Elsa and let it end frozen. Oh, you must have loved that. She's saying, let it go, like live. And the whole audience was singing along and it was the most magical thing. My life is complete. I've been waiting two decades for this moment or a decade for that moment and two decades for the wicked moment. So that's amazing. Yeah. I'm like on cloud nine. And I also yesterday interviewed, very excited Dr. Naomi Parrella. She is the chief medical officer at the zero app, which have you ever used the zero app, the fasting app?

Vanessa Spina:
I have I remember using it when I was doing extended fasts I I used it a few times or more than a few times I used it regularly when I used to do inner extended fasting

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, how long ago was that?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, before, I guess like before I had Luca, so like maybe 2018, 2019, 2020, I was doing a lot of extended fasting, but I, I really don't use it at all anymore because I'm not as much kind of stopped doing that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so that's also when I first used it was interesting. So I hadn't revisited it until prepping to interview her and it's changed a lot. Like it has a lot more features. It's really cool for like streaks and habit tracking and things like that with the calendar system and has a ton of resources. So like I opened it and on the homepage was a video with Peter Attia who apparently worked with them in the past. I was like, Oh my goodness. But it's super cool. I feel like I should be recommending it more, especially for people who are struggling in the beginning to stick to a fasting schedule or like get into, you know, really make it stick. It seems like a really, really great tool and resource for that, especially because we know, and I've talked about this on the show before, like dieting, for example, just the very act of monitoring what you're eating, like not even changing what you're eating, just monitoring what you're eating. It tends to create dietary change. Like there's something very powerful to tracking and accountability. So I think it'd be really helpful for people. And then she said she actually uses it in a, her own way as well, which is if she's wants to cut out a certain sort of food, like fast from like sugar or a certain treat, she'll use it that way. Um, which is really kind of smart, which I've actually, now I'm just thinking of all the ways I could use this app in the past. I've used an app where I was like, I'm not going to text this person. And it like, do you know how long you've gone? So maybe not for that reason. Well, yeah, you could, you could fast from people. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, it's super cool. And listeners can get it. I guess I didn't even really see what it does. It tracks your fasting, but oh, and she said that the, the algorithm is very sophisticated and works with your personal data, like your, you know, your age and your sex, and then it integrates with your wearables and can take in data with the information that you tell it regarding your meals and such. And then from that, it generates when it thinks you're in certain fat burning modes based on the time and stuff like that. So I asked her about like, you know, the accuracy and she said there's, you know, a lot of, like they have a lot of science behind it. And so it was really, it was really cool. And we also, just as a side note, listeners, that episode will come out in a few episodes. And we went into a deep dive into ozimpic and semi-glutide. So I thought that was like really cool because her specialty is actually weight loss. That's like what she does. She is the medical director at Rush center for weight loss, actually. And so that's her specialty. So yeah, maybe we could actually talk about our updated thoughts on ozimpic and such, but in any case, before that, for listeners, you can go to ifpodcast.com/zero, and that will give you a free seven day trial to the plus version. And then it's always free regardless. So you can keep it for free or pay for the plus version. Yeah, it was super, super cool. So what is new in your life?

Vanessa Spina:
Just doing so much podcasting right now. I I have been recording four to five episodes a week I'm just really pumped by all the amazing people. I'm getting to talk to you and the podcast is just doing amazing and it's just like it's kind of a Lot right now doing so many interviews because it as you know for each one You know, you have to prepare quite a bit whether it's like reading the person's book or you know Reading at least a dozen studies or so that they've authored. So I feel like I'm constantly Shifting gears and I've got so many tabs on my computer open of different Different studies, but it's amazing. I mean I was just saying to Pete we had a date night because we had our eighth wedding anniversary On Saturday Oh anniversary. Thank you. We did a mini putt this amazing new place in the city That's kind of like Las Vegas, but it doesn't have all the casino the gambling It's just like a really fun place and we did mini putt, which is what we did on one of our first dates But we were talking at dinner and I was like, I just feel so blessed that I get to do what I love Every single day and I always dreamed when I was younger of being in a position where I would get to Read books and synthesize information and share it. I don't know why I've always wanted to do that and I find that's what exactly what i'm doing Every day and it's it's so rewarding and so fulfilling. I'm interviewing. Have you heard of timeline nutrition? No They are this incredible swiss company that has done Over a decade of research and they discovered this molecule. You've probably heard of urolithin a Yeah, they discovered it and it it generates mitophagy it generates autophagy, but mitophagy specifically the mitochondrial autophagy And i'm interviewing their chief medical officer. That's anurag sing the day after tomorrow. So i'm really deep in mitophagy Research and and just all the stuff that they've been doing. It's really amazing. I love whenever a company is research first, you know, they put all their time and energy into research and doing all the clinical trials and Coming up with things that can really improve people's lives and I felt the same way about Mimeo who you recently got to To interview is companies that are research first like that research forward and they're creating things That are related to fasting that benefit you Or that generate benefits similar to fasting You know, and I think there's a lot of interest in that at the moment just like there isn't, you know the zero app

Melanie Avalon:
I as well feel so, so grateful about the podcasting. I didn't have that as specific of an acute. Wait, how old were you when you decided you wanted to do that? Read books and I mean, it was.

Vanessa Spina:
definitely was always knew that I wanted to do something involving books. Like it was more like a writing a book, which as you know I ended up doing. But although I did enjoy that, I way more enjoy reading, synthesizing, and sharing. I don't know why, but it was, I think it was in my early 20s. Like when I was in university and I started to think about doing a career and I was like, I need to do something where I can read stuff and then synthesize the key points and share it. And I was like, I need to become a professional speaker. So I thought, I thought that's what I should do, you know, because there's people who do that. Like people like Brian Tracy and Tony Robbins, like these were my heroes. I was like, I need to do that. So I did do that initially right after I left school, but podcasting is like a way better form, way better method for it. But yeah, in my early 20s, I kind of realized that. And so yeah, the fact that it's, it's what I get to do every day is amazing. Even no matter how busy it gets, and I'm sure you can relate, it's always so satisfying because you know you're doing what you were meant to be doing or what you're skilled or talents or, you know, you're kind of utilizing all of your skills and talents in a way living up to your full potential. I guess that's how it feels like.

Melanie Avalon:
I couldn't agree more. I guess I always wanted to have a show, so kind of similar. And then growing up, in high school, I was always like, I don't know if this was YouTube, but I was always the study guide girl. I made the study guides. I feel like that kind of relates to this, taking in all the information and, like you're saying, synthesizing. I think my favorite thing is just getting to learn these completely different but interrelated topics and do a deep dive into them. It's literally almost every day. So it's just constant learning.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And I, I always love, I don't know if it's Sun Tzu said, if you do what you love, you'll never work a job in your life. Yeah. A day in your life, a day in your life. And I, I also discovered that quote when I was in university and I was like, you know, I would just want to end up doing something that I love. And I, this definitely never feels like work. Although there are times where I feel exhausted mentally, especially recently feeling a little tired mentally, but I never feel like I'm working. I feel like I'm doing what I love and podcasting. I always feel like I get into the flow with most guests with, I would say with over 90% of the guests, I feel like I get into a flow state with them and that's the best. Like, yeah, I'm not surprised you feel that way too.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I literally had a moment, I think yesterday, I just sat in my car and I was like, I'm so grateful. I get to just learn all this stuff, like just constantly new things.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I think about you sometimes with, when I see the different episodes that you come out with, because your podcast is more broadly like on biohacking, it's less focused on one thing. So you really have a nice like wide variety of different topics that you talk about on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. And I always think when I see a new episode come out, I'm like, oh, she must have loved doing that one. No, because I can imagine you like preparing for it and really enjoying that person's book or yeah, that's fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's really great. We we share that in common. I love that so much. Oh Man, okay. Well speaking of studies Yeah, speaking of studies So I was looking up to see if there were any you know Cool fun new studies out about intermittent fasting I found for this episode and next episode some New reviews I thought we could talk about so the study for today it's called Impact Of Intermittent Fasting And Or Caloric Restriction On Aging Related Outcomes And Adults A Scoping Review Of Randomized Controlled Trials. So this study looks at 30 articles and 12 of them were about intermittent fasting 10 were about calorie restriction and 8 were combined and what they were looking at in general was to look at the Cardiometabolic cancer and Neurocognitive outcome differences between both of those and adults questions they were looking to ask were they wanted to know basically what were the Like within the study the different effects of those different outcomes and adults They wanted to know what were the differences between those and these different interventions or effects on health and what was interesting about it was I Thought it was going to find more Specific like I thought was gonna say that intermittent fasting was better for this and CR was better for this but honestly the takeaway about everything was they were pretty similar so basically, they were equivalently effective for all three of those outcomes and really the only Main difference was because they were also in addition to that They're both associated with weight loss which seemed to play a role and in all those health outcomes But I have tended to report greater adherence compared to calorie restriction So the long story short takeaway was that both of these have these incredible outcomes for our heart for cancer and our brain and they are Likely in part active acting through weight loss for that but intermittent fasting just seems to be more Doable so people adhere to it better has more long-term sustainability If you like I can go into some of the like specific things They found I don't know if I should go that route or talk a little bit about IF versus CR Do you have thoughts Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it's, it's, if there's anything specific you want to share, I found, you know, I wasn't surprised by the findings. This is something that I've, I always say is kind of funny to me because it's the whole reason why intermittent fasting exploded worldwide was because people found out that they could do caloric restriction without feeling like they were on a diet. That's really the whole thing. And then, and then people now critique it and say, well, it's the same as caloric restriction. Right. But that's the whole reason people got excited about it in the first place. And so the findings were not surprising to me because it is very, the results, the outcomes are equivalent between caloric restriction, intermittent fasting. I think that as the, so I'm interviewing a guest who actually specifically studied this in a couple of weeks. And it's really interesting. This topic, like comparing them. Yeah. He studied specifically, he got his PhD studying if there is a difference between intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. And it's yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of times like the studies don't equate the calories between the groups when that happens. But usually what happens spontaneously, people eat less when they're doing intermittent fasting, even then when they're doing caloric restriction. And it's like you said, the main takeaway from this review of the review, review of the men analysis is that it is more tolerable and people tend to stick with it more and are more successful with it. And there's something about just giving yourself this framework of being in a facet state, having a facet window for however long that is, that just works so well for people because you, you have this, it's like a psychological parameter around when you should be eating and when you shouldn't. And then you kind of go on autopilot after a while and you're just like, this is when I eat and this is when I don't eat. And when you have an open window all day, I don't know about other people are like this, but a lot of time there's that decision-making around like, should I eat now? Should I eat later? Should I have snack now? Or, and you almost sometimes feel hungrier just because you opened your eating window and you, you know, psychologically that you can eat. So it's such an effective tool for so many reasons. And like you said, a lot of the main cardio metabolic benefits, insulin sensitivity, improvement, et cetera, comes from the fat lost on either intermittent fasting or caloric restriction, intermittent fasting being a really effective form of caloric restriction.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. So yesterday when I was interviewing Dr. Perilla at the end, we were talking about if we could create any study, what would we create? And I said I would like to see more studies comparing intermittent fasting to calorie restriction and seeing what are the mechanisms there. So that's so cool. How did you find that guy?

Vanessa Spina:
I found him through Dr. Kurt Escobar, who's the PhD on autophagy that I recently interviewed. He's really interesting because he's a super sharp guy, but he's on this mission to correct a lot of the myths that are spread on the internet about autophagy and how it works. And he really thinks that a lot of people embellish or exaggerate some of the findings in studies because it gets, I don't know, he doesn't talk about this exactly, but I think it, he says it's usually because they want to sell you products or whatever. So they get your attention by embellishing or exaggerating what was found in a study and then they're able to get your attention so they can sell you products. That's his thing. And I understand where he's coming from. He's trying to set the record straight on what the truth about autophagy really is, like how much autophagy can you really get from different protocols? And I recently had him on the show and he interviewed this PhD who studied fasting and caloric restriction and compared it. And he believes that there is really no difference that looking at, I think he did a meta analysis looking at intermittent fasting compared with caloric restriction. And they found that ultimately if you equate calories exactly between the two, you're going to get the same results in terms of fat loss. If there's a caloric deficit, which there would be from caloric restriction, improvements in insulin sensitivity usually come from that and all the other associated benefits also come from that. But Dr. Sachin Panda, he did a lot of research comparing the two and he definitely found in his research that there were additional benefits from intermittent fasting. And one of the things that I tend to think about is ketones, right? If you get into ketosis, you're getting the signaling benefits of ketones. So I asked Dr. Kurt Escobar, is there a difference in autophagy between someone who fasts, for example, doing a 16, eight fasting period and an eight hour eating window with someone who does eats the same amount of calories in that 24 hour period? Is the autophagy the same? And he said, you might have a slightly higher increase towards the end of the fasting window, like right before you break your fast. And that's also where you would start to see that elevation in ketones, et cetera. But he said, in terms of autophagy, if you take both, it's a washout. They both will end up giving you the same amount of autophagy. But I do think that there is some benefits to the elevation of ketones. And he also talked about the timing. If you're measuring things in a study, when are you doing the measuring? Are you doing it during the fasting window? If you're doing it right before someone breaks their fast, there's probably going to be elevation in certain markers and autophagy proteins that you wouldn't see at other times of the day.

Melanie Avalon:
curious about, did he say anything about the difference in muscle preservation? Like a bolus of protein after a fasted state compared to small amounts of protein?

Vanessa Spina:
No, we didn't talk about that. We were talking more about exercise and fasting and caloric restriction. And he was saying basically that the autophagy is generated when you have an energetic crisis at the cellular level. And that usually happens through exercise, but it doesn't have to be fasted exercise. It just happens from exercise because exercise is when you create that intense demand for ATP. And that creates an energetic crisis for the cell. Whereas fasting, and this is something I've been talking about with a lot of scientists recently, fasting was believed to be doing that via this AMPK, PGC1 alpha axis, because they found that in mice. But then they recently found that that pathway doesn't exist in humans, which I think I was telling you about last week. So it doesn't mean that it's not there. It's just that exact pathway is not there as it is in rodents. So some things are there. As you know, some things you'll find in rodents just are not applicable to humans. But yeah, we didn't specifically talk about protein. And I think if I would have asked him that, he would have said he wasn't an expert in that area.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because that's something I'm super curious about. I'm really, really curious about this question. I'm a bit haunted by it. In this review, the things they found that were similar between IF and CR, so they found that they better maintain blood glucose levels and lipid metabolism, so that's dealing with fats in the body, that they induce neurotrophic and autophagy responses, that they increase the production of metabolites like ketones and BDNF, that they may promote reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation. So those were the main things they were talking about as being similar. What was interesting about the review was they would look at different markers sometimes to draw similar conclusions. So for example, with managing cardiovascular risk factors, they were saying that IF showed positive effects on blood lipids and glucose metabolism, and then specifically CR reduced LDL cholesterol and the total cholesterol HDL ratio. So what's interesting to me is it's different. They're not looking at the exact same thing when they're making the comparison. They did both show reductions in oxidative stress and inflammation, as well as lower levels of CRP for both. Yeah, I just really want to know if it's, I don't know why I want to know so bad, but I really want to know. It kind of reminds me of, weren't we talking about something recently where, or now am I thinking of a podcast I was listening to? I'm having a memory of talking about something where we thought it was the same pathway, but it was actually different pathways. Was that me and you, or was that me listening to a podcast?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we were just saying that that AMPK PGC1 alpha axis was generated from fasting in mice, but it doesn't generate in humans. So in mice, fasting will generate mitochondrial biogenesis, but it doesn't in humans. The exercise does, but not the fasting. So that's why I've recently been playing around with doing a pre-workout meal. And I've been doing this now for two weeks and I've lost almost five pounds. Oh, wow. Yeah. So what I'm trying to figure out now is, is it the small meal is giving me more energy for my workout or is it the additional triggering of muscle protein synthesis from that other meal, which it could be, but it's really interesting because I didn't expect that I didn't expect that to happen at all.

Melanie Avalon:
How does that normally, because I know nothing about the general timeline of weight gain and weight loss with having a child. So like, is that the normal trajectory? I know it's all different and unique for individual people.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I'm already like at my goal because I didn't gain weight with my second pregnancy. I actually lost a little bit of weight when I was pregnant. Oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't gain weight. Like you lost weight, like my body fat, like when I was pregnant. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Like at one point, I had really had to start eating more. It was just at one point in the pregnancy, baby was obviously like extremely healthy the whole time, but I didn't put on any additional weight during this pregnancy. So when I, after the baby, I didn't, like I'm not in like a postpartum like fat loss or weight loss journey or anything. It's just more what I'm always doing, which is optimizing my body composition, like wanting to be gaining muscle. And if I can lose, like I wanted to lose like between three to five pounds, like just overall, like not related to postpartum or anything, just in general, like the same as before I had the babies. And so I was pretty close to my goal, but yeah, it was really surprising because things could be different hormonally right now. Like the hormonal landscape could be different for me. I'm like about eight months out since having the baby, but yeah, it's, it's not really related to the, to postpartum weight gain or anything like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Gotcha. No, that's super cool. I love the, um, the self experimentation. How do you, how do you monitor your changes in your body composition?

Vanessa Spina:
So I use a scale at home and then I go for pretty regular DEXA body scans. I have a place near me, so I'm going to go for one pretty soon. But it was so interesting because you always think that adding more meals is not going to make you lose fat. That seems so contradictory. But now that I understand how muscle protein synthesis works and how much ATP and energy it requires, it does kind of make sense to me. And I have had people message me this in the past that it happened to them. And I thought, oh, they must be unicorns or something. Because usually, in a way, you would think this defies thermodynamics. But it doesn't because protein is so thermogenic and you burn about 30% of the calories, somewhere between 20% to 30% of the calories that you ingest because of triggering muscle protein synthesis. I think that it could either be that that meal, like I said, is giving me more energy to work out harder, which is what I was thinking at first. But it could also be that it's just generating a higher thermic effect from building muscle, from triggering muscle protein synthesis. But yeah, really, really interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, when I first started doing my really crazy diet experimentations back in the day, and I've talked about this a lot before, but I basically went through a period of time where I was eating just, like, just lean protein. And it's because intuitively I was like, I feel like I can just eat this unlimited and probably the more I eat, the more weight I'm going to lose. And that's very not scientific, what I just said, but that was my experience. Because I just was looking at, you know, what you were talking about with, like, how thermogenic protein is and how it really does, you know, go into the pathway of often becoming muscle. And then the pathway to fat conversion is just, you know, much more longer and complicated. So basically, keep adding the protein, the lean protein, you think it can be really magical for people. Just, like, in the body composition world and muscle building. Whatever I'm thinking of with the different pathways is, I think it's from some podcast and it probably has nothing to do with what we're talking about. But if it comes to me, I will mention it.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks for sending me that study, it was interesting. It was kind of like...

Melanie Avalon:
Not a let down, but I was excited. I was like, oh, it's going to be like, show some differences. But instead, it was kind of like they do the same thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we could look at Dr. Sachin Panda's research on a future episode because he definitely, you know, really believes that there's a lot of additional benefits from time-restricted eating than, you know, versus caloric restriction. And he, you know, believes he's done the research to prove that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, I would love to because yes, I want to know the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, the last closing point on this, I would say on this study, is to me, it's an amazing way to do caloric restriction. And I do firmly believe you get some additional benefits. I do believe autophagy and fat loss could be similar, but I think you get additional benefits from ketosis because you start generating ketosis, most people, if they skip breakfast and you start getting into that state of ketogenesis around like seven, eight, nine in the morning if you've been fasting since dinner the night before. So if you delay breakfast, you're definitely getting some ketones on board and they have amazing signaling properties, I think, that are understated because they have epigenetic signaling qualities they have signaling on the HDAC inhibition, histone deacetylase inhibition, which is something that drug companies are spending billions to try and replicate. You can get that naturally from ketosis. So I think there are longevity benefits from the increase in ketones, especially towards the end of the fast, that are not being accounted for enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I mean, that's what that's what would make sense to me. It just seems like you would create a different metabolic signature, eating the same amount, like same amount of calories, but eating them throughout the day versus this fasted fed state differentiation. You just see, I don't know, just, it seems like there would be something different, but yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
We can do Dr. Panda's studies next time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that'd be great. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. All right, would you like to read the question from Rebecca?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So our first question today is from Rebecca and the subject is avocados, avocados, avocados. Hi, ladies. I love the podcast. Thank you for all that you do. I recently started working from home and I realized that I don't get a lot of steps in a day. So I now take a walk every morning to get a coffee and listen to your podcast every day. I'm slowly catching up on all the podcasts that I missed. I'm also doing a slow transition back to IF. I was doing awesome with 18 to 20 hour fasting leading up to my wedding and then a series of life events hit, new job, new city, new house, family member fell ill with cancer, on and on and on. And while I fell off the wagon, I am slowly climbing back on and getting at least 16 to 18 hour fasts in with a 20 to 23 hour one in here and there. No changes yet, boo. But I am committed for a few months. All this to ask my question. I tend to open my window with an avocado with sea salt. It is so good. And now I absolutely crave it. I wake up thinking about it and there are days I would probably eat three to five avocados a day if I could. My question is why Google tells me that it could be a deficiency in essential fatty acids, low iron, or the whole what you eat you crave based on your gut bacteria. Well, I don't think avocados are bad and having one a day isn't super stressful to me. I do think that the urgency with which I crave them is causing me to pause and wonder what is going on. Other things I crave are coffee. Admittedly, I have a pretty bad caffeine addiction that I am just not interested in changing once in a while chocolate mainly because I am trying to mostly follow paleo and allow myself some dark chocolate once in a while carbs and salt. Thanks for any tips that you might have. Awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
First of all, avocados, do you like avocados, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I love them and they are full of potassium, which I just had to say because it's the first thing that came to my mind.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I remember avocados were one of those foods that did not taste like what I thought it was going to taste like. Like I didn't have one for the longest time and then I have one for the first time and it was like, oh, it's like, when is this?

Vanessa Spina:
magical. It is magical. It's funny because it reminded me when I was in university, I used to also have an avocado every day and it was the first thing I ate every day. And I would actually, this is really funny, but I would slice it in half and put it in a container overnight with an open lemon that I would also slice in half. And in the morning, it would make the avocado taste lemony. And it was amazing. Also with a bit of salt on it, there was something about it that was just insanely delicious. It would get infused with the lemon and I would have that every single day. And I remember my mom, she would be like, aren't you worried about cholesterol?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man. I used to put the lemon on it too. I used to do, okay, I used to do lemon pepper and lemon on the avocado. Oh my goodness. There was something about, I remember my friend Jason was like, you have to try lemon pepper on avocado. It's going to change your life. And it did. There's something about the lemon. Oh man. You should try the lemon pepper. Like try it, try it and report back. It's going to change your life. It's going to change your life.

Vanessa Spina:
change your life? Yeah, avocados are magical.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember though it not tasting like what I thought it was going to taste like. I think because I associate it with guacamole, which I never had, and guacamole you kind of associate with Mexican food, so I thought it was going to be like Mexican food tasting. I don't know. It was not what I thought at all.

Vanessa Spina:
texture.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh man, I'm craving an avocado. So, well, first of all, I'm really sorry Rebecca about, although this is kind of an old question. So hopefully things are doing well with your family member and all of the things. And like, this is a really old question. So I really am curious where she's at now with her job and her life and where she's living and, and everything. So sending love there as far as, okay, my first initial thought, interesting that your thought was about potassium. Mine was that this is a habit craving thing, because we know, we know our brains release dopamine based on habits. So you can actually, it's really interesting. You can create dopamine releases from things that don't even really mean anything to you, but the brain likes patterns, especially if you think that these patterns are keeping it alive. So it's quite possible that, and this is just me like, just hypothesizing. It could be a lot of different things and I don't know the answer, but it could be that there were some or are some nutrients and avocados that you did really need. And since you started opening your fast with it, it was a high reward situation where you're looking forward to it. You're opening your fast with it. You're getting all these nutrients. So it's like good, good, good. It's signaling good things to your brain. And then if you repeated that and you're like opening the window with it every time, you're going to probably quickly start really looking forward to that. And I mean, I think that could happen with almost, I mean, a lot of foods. I mean, I even do it because I open my window a very specific way and I definitely, I don't say not necessarily that I crave it, but I really, that's like what I need to open my window. And I would feel very weird not doing that, which is like my cucumbers and my wine. And we do know, so she mentioned the whole eat what you crave thing with the gut based on your gut bacteria. We do know that's a thing. So basically what you eat influences your gut bacteria and then your gut bacteria crave that thing you're eating. And that can be a reason that can be actually pretty hard to get off of like the processed food train, for example, because you start cultivating these not so good gut bacteria that are craving that not so good food. And on the flip side though, when you change your diet, you can actually start slowly craving the foods you're eating, which is very, very cool. So the reason I'm thinking it's more habitual now is that if you've been doing this, I don't know how long she said this has been happening, but if it's been a substantial amount of time and you're still intensely craving the avocados, I think you probably would have received the nutrients that you were deficient in by now. I mean, I guess it's possible not. To me, it sounds more like a habit driven thing, especially because you also know you admit that you crave and have quote addictions with other things like coffee. It doesn't sound like you actually have like a habit or an addiction around chocolate, but you do talk about craving different things. Yeah, I will put my money on it being a habit thing. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That was the first thing I thought of as well is, you know, it being a habit, sorry, the first thing I thought it was actually potassium because avocados are really high in potassium. And I'm always really interested, you know, by things like cravings, like dark chocolate. Could it be that you're low in magnesium? Like if you're craving bananas or potatoes or avocados, which are all high in potassium, could it be that you're low in potassium? You know, it's interesting to consider. I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but it's just what came to my mind because those foods are high in it. So sometimes cravings can be associated with that. I would think that it's probably just because it's so amazing because as we were talking about avocados are magical and delicious. The only thing that I would say is, and we probably won't have the same opinion on this, but if you are waking up already thinking about your meal way later in the day, that to me doesn't sound like a fun day. So, you know, and I found that like I have done intermittent fasting for so many years. And like I would say, most of the time that I was doing it, I was enjoying it because I didn't have any thoughts of food during that time. And that's what I enjoyed about it was the freedom from thinking about food or meals. And then I would usually think about food around the time, you know, that it was opening my eating window. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but to me that feels more, I wouldn't say white-knuckling it because it's not like you're saying in your question that all day long you're like tormented by the thought of this avocado, but it does sound like you're thinking about it quite a lot. So, you know, I don't know if maybe your eating window is too long. As we were just talking about, there's quite a bit of research showing that intermittent fasting and caloric restriction can produce the same results. So what if you had the avocado a little bit earlier in the day, and then you wouldn't be thinking about it all day. It's just something that I would maybe try experimenting with. I've tried with so many, I've experimented with so many different kinds of fasting approaches. You know, I've done, the most recent one I was doing was circadian rhythm fasting. So I was having a breakfast every day and then having dinner, and I would fast between breakfast and dinner. And I really liked that. That could be something you could try. There's having breakfast and lunch and then fasting until breakfast the next day. I tried that one, probably the one I struggled with the most, so not one that I would recommend. But that's because, not because I was hungry at dinner, but because I wanted to partake in the social activities, like with friends or with family of having that meal, which dinner usually is a more social meal. So I would just play around with your fasting window. If you're really, really wanting to do intermittent fasting, you know, I doubt it's related to a deficiency because you're eating it every day. So if you're having it every day, then you're probably not deficient in that thing. I think it's probably more maybe around the fact that you're just waking up and you're hungry and you want to have something. So you know, there's lots of different ways to approach whatever it is that your goal is. If it sounds like you would like to potentially lose some body fat and improve your body composition, you can still achieve that by having the avocado or having your first meal earlier in the day. You know, it doesn't have to be, you don't have to do an 18 or 20 hour fasting window to achieve your goal. Some people do that because they find themselves free from thinking about food all day. But if you are thinking about food all day, then I would think that would defeat the purpose.

Melanie Avalon:
I also have a wild card suggestion, this total wild card. This might just be something to try out of curiosity and experimentation, but I remember when I was going down the fasting mimicking diet rabbit hole way back in the day and contemplating doing it. That's Dr. Valter Longo's basically approach to creating the metabolites and effects of intermittent fasting, but you do it for like five days. There's the DIY version where people kind of just create a meal that, oh, wait a minute. No, because his is low. Wait, his is... Oh man. Now I'm trying to remember. I just remember there was a DIY version online where people were eating avocados, but now I'm wondering if that matches up with the macros of his diet because his diet tends to be low fat. So I'd have to revisit that. Basically, well, FMD or not. I know there's a community out there where they do this avocado fast thing. You could just try that out of curiosity. She said, I could eat three to five avocados a day if I could. You could try an experiment where you eat like five avocados for a few days. Just out of curiosity, I'm not prescribing this as like a diet to follow long term, but if you are into self experimentation, I think it could be interesting. It'd be really... It'd probably get you really deep into ketosis. I don't know what you think about that crazy idea, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, this is not a nutritional advice podcast because we are not qualified to do that. So definitely not any kind of, you know, recommendation, but it does, it does sound like something fun to do being as avocados are so delicious. And like you said, you could have three, three to five a day. You probably could have three to five a day and still get to your goal. So I totally get where you're coming from on that.

Melanie Avalon:
It reminds me of the fat fasting that people would do. It would be a way to get an extended amount of time. This is going to sound counterintuitive to everything that we've talked about, but the Dr. Valter Longo FMD thing, a lot of the benefits that he finds comes from the really low protein intake. So it could be interesting. Maybe we could do it for like a day. Maybe we could have like an avocado day and see what happens. I know Dave Asprey.

Vanessa Spina:
An avocado day would probably be fun. If you are looking for body re-composition, yes, I agree, you'd probably get into ketosis because your protein would be so low. But avocados actually have a lot of carb, so avocados are mostly carb and fat. So I wonder, probably even with five, you probably would be low enough, but I'd have to look it up to see. But you probably would be low enough just on calories, although it depends on the size of the avocados because I think some of them are like 300 calories each.

Melanie Avalon:
Now I'm craving avocados.

Vanessa Spina:
Now you wanna do an avocado date. I wanna do an avocado fast day, yeah. You should do an avocado date and report back.

Melanie Avalon:
sounds really miserable to me. I can't do the like day. I can't do like the eating throughout the day. For your OMAD.

Vanessa Spina:
to see the avocados, avocados for, you know, for, for a fun experiment, you'd probably be in ketosis, although I'm gonna see how many carbs are in an avocado.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's only like three or four. I don't think it's that much. 13.

Vanessa Spina:
Is some of that fiber? Yeah, 10 grams of fiber, but I never did like the net carbs thing. So if you're doing net, then it's probably three. If you don't do net, it's 13. So you probably could have two and being ketosis or three maybe, but that's really not your question. I know. But yeah, for body composition, ultimately you, you want to have some protein in there, I would think. So, you know, I, I think the reason avocados are so attractive, just like nuts is that, you know, they have lots of amazing nutrients in them. They have lots of energy, lots of carb and fat, and they taste so, so delicious. And that that's what makes them so magical, but they only have three grams of protein. So if you had five of them, you'd be getting like 15 grams of protein, which like you said would probably put you in ketosis, but it won't help with long-term body re-composition and gaining more lean mass.

Melanie Avalon:
I know Dave Asprey has his low protein days as well, so it'd be like a therapeutic approach type thing.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. I've totally been changing my thinking lately on, on protein restriction. Oh yeah. And mTOR and everything, which is like a much larger conversation, but it was really interesting because I know it's a topic that we both love. And, you know, how do you balance all of that mTOR activity with AMPK? And it really, it really is interesting because Dr. Kurt Escobar was talking about how the mTOR that people talk about in a negative light is actually dysregulated mTOR. And that's something you don't want to have a lot of, but the mTOR that you get from eating protein and doing resistance training, you never want to really avoid that. And you can get autophagy from mTOR, which is so counter to what I used to think, because once in autophagy, once the lysosome fills with enough amino acids, it actually triggers autophagy. And the metabolic autophagy that you trigger from exercise triggers that housekeeping, that cellular housekeeping autophagy. So I used to always think for autophagy, you needed AMPK, you needed fasting, you needed to avoid mTOR with protein, et cetera. But you actually get autophagy from mTOR. Like the whole system is so much more complex than we often make it seem like AMPK fasting autophagy versus mTOR protein muscle building. And you can actually get a lot of autophagy from mTOR, which the whole point of that being you don't have to do protein restriction to get autophagy and to kind of balance things out. So I've been changing my thinking on that lately, but I know it's something that a topic that we're both interested in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah i remember when i was talking with my friend james climent who wrote a book called the switch he does a lot of studying on blood work of longevity and. He's talking about how long in tour stays on and that's what that's when i realized that i know nothing about him to her.

Vanessa Spina:
and the different mTOR complexes, mTOR1 and mTOR2.

Melanie Avalon:
He was talking about how, and I don't want to get this wrong, but basically like, and I don't know what the exact experiment he was doing or what he was testing, but he was talking about a situation where protein or whatever or something was stimulating mTOR and it was still on like, you know, 30 hours later or something. And I was like, okay, nevermind, I don't know anything, like, I don't know what's happening here. Did you listen to that interview? Peter Attia interviewed a woman and like her thing was mTOR.

Vanessa Spina:
don't know. I'd love to get their name and go look it up. It was a really deep dive. I'll have to find it. You know what's blowing my mind lately is the podcast transcripts on iTunes. Oh, I listen on Spotify. I don't know if Spotify has this, but iTunes now has transcripts for every podcast. And so you can search the transcripts on the app. So if I want, like, if I want to go back and find that interview, I can search in the transcript just when they talk about mTOR. For us too? Yeah. And you can search specific terms, but you can also watch the words as you're listening, which is a new thing that I love to do because it's like subtitles. So it kind of helps me to deepen my understanding when it's something really complex. I can listen to it and I can also watch the words as it goes through the transcript.

Melanie Avalon:
I had a moment, sorry, just speaking of this week, because like one of my best friends ever, shout out to Carmen and me, he's directing his first feature film with a really incredible cast. And I was watching his producer cut, so there's no subtitles, obviously. And I was like, whoa, this is like a whole new experience. I forgot what it was like to watch something without subtitles. I think it made me watch it a little bit better. I used to think it was the opposite, the subtitles were helping me, but now I'm wondering if I'm becoming reliant on subtitles, well, like for videos, like for movies and TV, because you watch with subtitles, right? I love them.

Vanessa Spina:
but also I have two kids that are constantly making noises, so I can't really watch anything without subtitles now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So that was a moment. I was like, I don't know what to do with myself. I have to like, listen. Oh my goodness. Love it. Awesome. Well, this was super fun. So if Rebecca is still around, definitely let us know how it went with the avocados, which I am now craving.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say if we want to do this last question, it's kind of related, like we could answer it pretty quick because it's kind of related to what we've just been talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
This is from Sherry. She says, if I want more muscle definition, should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session or complete my 16-hour fast? Should I break my fast and take collagen and creatine right after my session and then eat a meal after I have fasted 16 hours? I am 59 years young and could stand to lose a little fat on my arms and belly around three to five pounds.

Vanessa Spina:
That was some alliteration. Should I eat shortly after my weightlifting session? It's very poetic writing. So, I would say that, in my opinion, it probably just comes down to what feels best for you, and we might have different opinions on this. Being as what we were just talking about with the studies and the meta-analysis talking about chloric restriction and intermittent fasting, basically generating the same amount of fat loss between the two, I think it really just comes down to how you feel best. If you like to eat right after your weightlifting session, you can do that. If you want to break your fast and have collagen and creatine, and also have a meal right after your workout, then you can definitely do it. I don't think you need to get to a certain goal, especially with the hours, and if you want to lose some body fat, like three to five pounds you were saying, ultimately if you were doing chloric restriction and you were doing any kind of intermittent fasting, according to the definitions we were recently covering, at least 14 hours of fasting, you're doing intermittent fasting. So, I would say just however it works best for you. I like playing around with different things. I recently started doing a meal before my workouts, and I've been losing, it was about three pounds now, almost five pounds in the past couple of weeks. So, I think it's worth experimenting and finding whatever you feel best doing, because I did my workouts fasted for so many years because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis from that. When it turns out, it's really just the exercise that's doing that. Personally, I've been finding it fun to play around with that and to experiment. Ultimately, I've been having better workouts, having a small meal, not a huge meal, just a small meal before working out. I'm still doing intermittent fasting, according to those definitions, and I'm getting better results, which for me, I'm trying to focus on what the outcome is. It sounds like you are also interested in three to five pounds of fat loss. So, it made me think of my personal experience, but I think it really will just come down to what kind of caloric deficit you're creating, whether you're doing a 16-hour fast or longer or shorter. As long as the calories are equated, you're going to get the same amount of fat loss, whether you eat right after or if you fast longer during the day. That's my take on it. What about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Before that, what do you think about the collagen and creatine specifically for taking those?

Vanessa Spina:
in terms of the fat loss.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, she should break her fast with collagen and creatine right after her session and then eat a meal.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, I think those are probably great for boosting. I mean creatine has been proven in the science to help boost lean body mass. And there's lots of meta-analysis showing that it increases fat loss in women. So it definitely can help, including that in your routine. Having it right after a session, I don't think it matters when you take it. If you have it right after your session, in terms of the timing, I don't think it matters. And the same with collagen. As long as you have it sometime during your eating window. But I can't really speak to the specifics with regards to fasting for 16 hours or not.

Melanie Avalon:
And I think we've talked about it a lot on this show about there's this idea that you have to have the protein right after the exercise and that's not necessarily the case. And I really think it's about what works best for you. I would have a little bit of a different approach if I was a professional bodybuilder or that's my job and then it would be a little bit more specific. But for the everyday person just wanting to exercise, maintain and gain muscle, follow the healthy diet that works for them, I really would do the window that feels the best for both the exercise and the hunger overall and all the things. So I eat regardless of whatever activity I do during the day, I always eat way later at night. And that's worked even with doing M-sculpt where I go in and do these sessions earlier in the day where it's creating really intense muscle proteins, synthesis, signaling in my muscles and I don't eat until later that night. Well, this was absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. You can submit your own questions to the show at questions at ifpodcast.com. If you would like to come on the show as a featured guest, we are going to start having some guest interviews. So for that, go to ifpodcast.com/submit and then you can fill out a form there to submit to share your story on the show. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 389, they'll have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram, we are @ifpodcast, I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and really enjoyed the questions and the study that we talked about, so looking forward to our next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Okay, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Sep 22

Episode 388: Special Guest: Dr. Naomi Parrella, Weight Loss, Fat Loss, Semaglutide And GLP-1 Inhibitors, Fasting With An App, Muscle Loss, High Protein Diets, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 388 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Naomi's background

Exercise doesn't drive weight loss

Hormonal fluctuations affecting fat loss

Fasting for women

Semaglutide and GLP-1 inhibitors

Developing the Zero App

Data collection and sharing with other wearables

Diet mindset and tracking a fast

Fasting studies

Caloric reduction

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 388 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. Welcome to episode 388 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very special guest that I am very excited about. So the backstory on today's conversation a while ago now, quite a while ago now, I tried an app called Zero, which I'm sure a lot of you guys are probably familiar with because it actually helps you track your fasting. So something really near and dear to the heart of this community. So I tried it a while ago. I haven't used it recently, but I did sort of recently, a few months ago, got reached out to by the app, because they wanted to have their chief medical officer come on the show and share more about the app and everything that she's doing in her work with health and weight loss and all the things. And so I was obviously over the moon thrilled at this idea, because I know the app is so valuable for people in their fasting journey. I knew it would be of such an interest to everybody. And then I was talking with Dr. Parela before this, but I dive deep into some of the other work that she's doing in her in her past working with, you know, thousands and thousands of patients. And she is really a wealth of knowledge when it comes to finding the diet that works for you weight loss resistance, really making metabolic changes for people in an often confusing and disempowering world, especially when it comes to just knowing what to do and doctor patient relationships and all the things and has worked on a pretty cool study about Ozempic. And I know we get a lot of questions about that as well. So there is so much that we can talk about here. I am so, so excited about about this opportunity. And I will say before we even jump in France, because we're going to talk all about the app, but if you go to ifpodcast.com/zero, you can get a free seven day trial of that app. So definitely go to that link. But in any case, I'm here with Dr. Naomi Parela. Dr. Parela, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Melanie, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited, especially with your audience.

Melanie Avalon:
So a little bit about you, so you are the medical director at Rush Center for weight loss. And you've done a ton with speaking and for people like United Airlines and Google and all the different things. And now, like we were talking about, you work at zero as well. So questions for you. Your personal story, like what led you to what you're doing today? Did you always want to be a doctor? When did the interest in weight loss in particular come into your life? What happened there?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, great question. Hard to answer. So I am not somebody who knew I wanted to be a doctor very young. As a matter of fact, I was pretty sure I didn't want to do that. You know, I was born in Japan and grew up in Japan, moved to the US when I was in high school and had this experience of different kinds of health experiences and perspectives across different cultures. So already, you know, that was just kind of interesting. And then, you know, did undergrad and, you know, started a family after graduating. And during the time that I was taking care of my little guy, I really became super interested in the medical profession, just what they were doing, what they were advising, because I had so many doctor's appointments for a newborn baby for all the prenatal care. So I started just, you know, being around much more with the medical providers and became very curious about the different recommendations they made and how things were very different hearing, you know, how people were talking to each other in the health care that I was receiving. So long story short, I got excited about all the different things related to lifestyle. And this was actually even before because as an undergrad, I had been an aerobics instructor and a personal trainer and was very interested in building communities around health. And so I was doing that actually after I had my babies. And along the way, I decided I would see if I could get into med school. So I took some classes, I studied while my kids were sleeping, went to med school and became a doctor. So it was kind of a roundabout sort of way that this occurred. And my practice has also evolved organically as well. So that's how I kind of got to this current space.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, first of all, that is an extremely inspiring starting becoming a doctor after having kids and all the things. So it is never too late and no excuses for not, for not doing what you want to do. That's amazing. And so with your work as a doctor, so you said that you, you know, were initially having all of these appointments for your child and becoming intrigued with that. Where did the switch or the focus on weight loss in particular come in?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, that's a great question. So actually, while I was at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, I, like I said, I was a personal trainer and aerobics instructor, and I noticed that in the rural communities outside of the city, there were no gyms. And in those days, people were using VHS exercise videos. And I thought, wow, you know, I wonder if I could bring exercise out to the farms and see if I could build a community and get buy-in for it because people would be a thing to do together instead of in your own living room, you know, watching a video and doing exercise. I thought, I want to go out into the community and see if I can build interest and build a community around that. So that's what I did. And it was actually quite fun. I started with two students, and we were in elementary school gymnasium. So you can imagine how awkward that is when you're the instructor and you don't know which one to look at, right? Because you don't want to, like, look too intensely at one and not the other. And so they were so fantastic. And sure enough, word of mouth, right? Communities develop and they talk to each other and friends share really good information. And so while I was teaching, I would be, you know, sharing what I was learning in school on campus. Slowly, my classes grew. And so they grew so fast and so large that we had to move into a high school gymnasium, which was pretty awesome. So I saw that just by having fun exercising together, you could actually bring a community together and inspire others to get active as well. So along that way, people started asking me a lot of questions and I was not involved in medicine. I had no idea what a normal blood pressure was. They started asking me all sorts of questions in the class. So I started hanging out in the medical school bookstore when we had bookstores before on campus and reading a lot about the different, you know, questions they were asking me about. So just learning on my own. And this was, you know, obviously before having kids. Then once I had kids and started play groups and started health conversations for our children, you know, a bunch of parents getting together, then parents started asking me about losing weight after having been pregnant because they had gained a lot of weight during pregnancy. And so I started really studying and working on that and we created groups and worked on weight loss with small children, not for the children, but for the parents. You know, from there, like I said, I went off to med school and during medical school, we didn't talk about nutrition at all. We didn't talk about weight back at that time either. Not very much. Once I went into residency and I started making recommendations to individuals about their weight and seeing that disease processes were reversing. Patients were having great outcomes. I started getting referrals from specialists who would say, I don't know what she's doing, but if you need a primary, go see Dr. Perala. She'll take care of it. And so slowly I just turned into the weight loss doctor over time and it's, you know, been great fun. And this is pretty much what I was meant to be doing, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
with the start with the focus on exercise. So what were you finding that was working? Was it, was there a common theme that worked for everybody or was it pretty unique to people when it comes to exercise versus counting calories versus changing macros? Like was there a magic formula?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Well, so what's interesting is when I first started, so as an undergrad, I, you know, obviously having lived in Japan and then moving to the US and seeing sort of the different shapes and lifestyles, I really thought I would teach people to exercise. And so it was really exercise more to help people achieve their weight goals. And what ended up happening was I had like a 0% success rate in helping people lose weight by teaching them how to exercise. They had a great time, they got physically fit, they were more active, they engaged in their world more, but long-term weight loss success was pretty much a big fat zero. And so, you know, I realized I have to do something different here. And that's when through, you know, the postpartum period and, you know, after having children, I really started diving into the diet and paying attention to different things about diet. So first, I really did believe calories in, calories out. I did believe that was the driver and that I needed to make sure, you know, people were eating less calories. And the strangest thing happened, people would come in and they would say, I'm eating less calories, but I'm not losing any weight. So of course I'm asking all my other trainers and other people I know, and they say, oh, they're probably just lying. They're probably really eating more than they say they're eating. So of course, you know, you start kind of questioning yourself because everybody was being unsuccessful. And here I am giving this supposed amazing advice. So I had to really go back to the books and it wasn't until I became a physician and had enough patients that I started realizing what my advice was, was completely wrong. It is not calories in, calories out. Calories are not the answer. So, and exercise clearly wasn't the answer. And what I found was by changing how people signal their body and the hormone response to that, then I could achieve amazing results that everybody told me was not possible. And that was the first moment I started seeing, my patients showed me, you can reverse type two diabetes. You can reverse the need for blood pressure medicines. That blew my mind because of course in med school I had not been taught that in residency. I never saw that. And so my patients showed me through their quote, miraculous recoveries that I had it all wrong early on. And so I started seeing, it really is about what you put in your body, how you take care of your body, what you do with your body, causes a change in the hormone responses, hormone signal to the body, what to do with fuel, whether you have access to certain fuel. And that is the secret to weight loss.

Melanie Avalon:
So I think about the calories in calories out piece quite a lot. And subtle nuance question about it, because you're saying that you know, it's not calories in calories out. Is it that it's not calories in calories out? Or is it that the way we perceive calories and calories out is not what actually ends up being the calories and calories out? What I mean by that is, you know, we think that we can just count the calories that we are taking in and that we can somehow magically also count the calories that we're expending. When maybe there's like a lot of other factors that are affecting, you know, how calories are actually burned or not. I guess the question is, in the end, is it still calories in calories out? It's just that we, you know, set up a metabolic system that led to more calories going out than they otherwise would have because of the metabolic setup.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Melanie, that's a genius question and insight. And I just love that you asked this because I think it is one of the most misunderstood. So the calories in, calories out, you're right. If we were a robot or a machine in a vacuum where the environment doesn't change, then yes, you can calculate what goes in and you know exactly what the burn rate is and then that is a calories in, calories out approach and that follows laws of physics. But we're not in a vacuum, our environment changes and the body changes and adapts. So you're right, metabolic rate can change from day to day. So just because right now my metabolic rate might be a certain amount, tomorrow it could be different and it could be dependent on multiple factors and the environment and what I'm putting in my body. Did I get enough sleep? How are my hormones? What time of the month is it, right? All of those things. So you're right. So ultimately, calories in, calories out sort of works but you can't use that to calculate what's appropriate for you and you're right. The kind of calories also matter. So if you have a bag of some candy or cookies and or you have a potato and or you have a piece of meat, fish, chicken or you have a salad, those are all gonna impact the body very, very differently. And the hormone response to those different foods and macronutrients will result in whether you're burning fats, whether you up-regulate your metabolism, whether you are storing fat. And so you're right, it's way more complex than I'm just gonna count the calories I'm eating and I'm gonna watch what I'm burning, using my various biosensors or getting my metabolic rate tested. So it's way more complex than that because the body keeps adapting and different calorie inputs have different metabolic responses, meaning the hormones are different.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm so glad you got what I was asking. I was like, okay, yeah, I love this so much. It's so important, because I think people so often, they just want to make it simple. It's not simple at all.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
There is a way to make it more simple, to think about it a little bit more simply. So we know all living beings have to have fuel and energy, right, the fuel to burn so that you can do things and stay alive. And so if you have infinite sources of fuel, your metabolism runs nicely, you're good to go, you can heal, you can play, you can do all the things. But if you don't have enough fuel, your body is gonna slow down its metabolism and it's going to shut things off and it's not gonna repair as well. And it's going to have to pick and choose and prioritize where it's gonna put its energy and where it's gonna use the energy. And so this is one of the biggest challenges with when people do a calorie restriction approach. If you force your body to have less calories, then it needs to do its daily functions, then it's gonna do less. If you, on the other hand, change the hormone balance so that you can burn fat, which we all have enough fat on the body to basically keep us going for months on end, if we can tap into the fat burning, then whatever you don't, for example, eat or take in as calories, you burn off your body. So that's a point where you might not be that hungry because your body's getting enough fuel. And so then you would end up eating less, which means you have less calories coming in, but not because you're forcing your body to try to function with less calories. It's because your body has access to the stored calories on your body, the fat cells.

Melanie Avalon:
And I think that's one of the biggest, you know, paradigm shifts I had historically, and this was forever ago because I've been doing intermittent fasting for so long, which by the way, do you do intermittent fasting daily or.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Absolutely. I'm post-menopausal. If I don't do intermittent fasting, I can't fit into my pants, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
or how do you approach it?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, so I approach it, I had to change it up because I have different kinds of days. And so one of the things I've learned over the years is the body adapts and you want it to be able to adapt. So there was a period of time when I was very strict and I was doing 16-8s. And after a while, it wasn't as effective for me. It wasn't that it wasn't effective, it just didn't have a noticeable change. I sort of, I don't want to say stalled, but sort of stayed the same. And I was really interested in optimizing further. So I realized if I change things up and respond to the season, my sleep, my stress, if I pay attention to more factors than just the clock, it makes a big difference. And so this is why I like actually tracking, because then I can see the patterns and I can start connecting the dots and actually ask my patients to keep track as well so that we can see what's that pattern you need like right after the holidays or after a celebration. What do you need when you haven't been eating and you now need to replenish because you were sick and you didn't feel like eating, right? So I change it up.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, because this is probably one of the main questions we get all the time, is fasting good for women? Is it detrimental for them? Is it too stressful? Is it going to affect their fertility or their cycle? What do you find working with women in particular in fasting?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. So fasting is really, really individual dependent. So I hate those kind of answers where you're like, well, that doesn't really tell me what to do. But the bottom line is if you have metabolic dysfunction, even just early on, so that means your waistline is increasing or larger than it was before and you're not pregnant. If you have abnormal blood work, like your triglycerides are high or your A1c, which measures your blood sugars over the past three months, things like that. If there's markers that are elevated, that would also be blood pressure, if that's high, then you would want to use fasting to help with those conditions. And it would be something that even a 12-hour fast would make a difference. If somebody has PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, then they might need to do a little bit longer fast, depending on the type of cycle. For women, if you're in your follicular stage, which is right after your period until the time of ovulation, you have a different fasting profile than premenstrual, right before your period when you're ravenous and having cravings. So it kind of depends. It's not awful. I hate that answer.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I mean, it's basically the answer, though. So I guess what we can do with that answer is how, how intuitive is that for women? So can they just go based on how they feel? Or do they need to be taking metrics, you know, tracking things? How can they, how can they find what works for them?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, I think actually you can be a little bit intuitive, but there are some rules that I recommend just because if you're very dysregulated, for example, you have an irregular sleep cycle or work schedule or you're studying weird hours, whatever, I think it's helpful to just know, number one, regardless of what you're doing or what stage of life you're in, you probably will benefit from making sure you have 12 hours out of 24 hours that you do not eat. And you can drink water, you can have black coffee, you can have unsweet tea, but pretty much if you do that at a bare minimum, that should be okay pretty much at all times unless you have a problem with maintaining weight, that would be the only time. So in other words, if your weight is very, very low and you're trying to increase your weight. So I think that's something that's very straightforward. Intuitive from there is if you had certain reasons that you wanted to extend your fast, like I said, different medical conditions or chronic disease, and you wanted to extend your fast, then you may want to extend it slowly. So for example, somebody says, I'm going to do 14 hours or I'm going to do 16 hours. If they're sitting there at the 15th hour, staring at their watch being like, oh my gosh, if I don't eat for another hour, I hit the 16 hour mark, but oh my gosh, I'm starving. Their body's cortisol stress hormone level is sky high, right? And if you're watching the clock like that, it's no longer effective. So yes, you can choose to extend the fast, but just pay attention. It might have to go a little bit slower if your body is screaming at you to eat. The other thing would be if you are feeling super hungry, you want to reflect back, are you getting enough water, salts, and proteins? Those would be the things that drive hunger. And it's really, really important to pay attention to that because if you're not getting enough of those, your hormones will get screwed up. You will lose muscle mass, right? Those are things that aren't very beneficial. So I think there's a little bit of a nuance. And again, paying attention. If you start getting hungry before you want to end your fast, take notes, pay attention. Were you getting the nutrients you need? Are you maybe under more stress than you expected? Did you not get enough sleep? Your body signals to you and it's important to pay attention. And then if you're like, oh no, I'm just wanting a cookie, then that's really not true hunger, right? If you couldn't satisfy it with a chicken or egg or something.

Melanie Avalon:
We talk about protein all the time on this podcast. We are major, major protein fans. And actually, and that's another question we get is women seem to often struggle to get enough protein in their eating window. So I eat a short, like a four hour eating window every night. And I don't have, I'm a bad person to ask about how to eat protein because I, um, I eat so much and it's like so natural to me that I forget people struggle to, I'm like, how do you struggle to fit it in? And I eat like pounds in my like four hours. Do you find that that's a common theme where women struggle to get enough protein in their window or how do you handle that?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. I mean, Melanie, kudos to you that you are talking about protein and that you're saying you can do this in a four hour window because a lot of people don't believe that's possible, right? And in the past, we used to... Oh, it's possible. Oh, totally. Totally. And in the past, we used to tell people, oh, you can only absorb 30 to 40 grams at a time, blah, blah, blah. Totally not true. And recent research has demonstrated, actually, your body can absorb what you put in if your body needs it and it's bioavailable. So I do hear a lot of people struggling with getting adequate protein because it's something that's not in a vending machine. It's hard to get really quickly. You have to kind of plan for it. So this is where it starts getting difficult. Also, individuals who don't like to cook or who don't have someone to cook for in their house, for example, if you don't have children that you're cooking for, then it also becomes easy to not, quote, prep or prepare proteins. And then if you go out, it can be challenging because your plate's going to be piled high with cards, you're going to have bread baskets brought to the table, right? It's not necessarily like they're bringing meatballs as the...

Melanie Avalon:
When I, this is a true statement. When I go out, I order for dessert a savory dessert. So I'll order like another appetizer or another steak. You have to tell the kitchen though, ahead of time.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
That is so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
So I tell them like early in the entree, I'm like, I might order another entree for dessert. So and I do.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
I love it. Oh my gosh. I've never even thought of doing that. That's so genius because they only bring you the dessert menu, right? At the end, they never bring back the menu with the appetizers on it. It's brilliant.

Melanie Avalon:
You know it's so fun the first time i did it i felt really like awkward and weird but then once i realize that you can do that it's like the world is your oyster like there's so much potential.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Totally. Oh my gosh, Melanie, I'm totally feeling that. That's brilliant. Love it.

Melanie Avalon:
And I even asked the waiter one time, I was like, do people do this? And he's like, yeah, sometimes people order savory desserts. So that's where I got that phrase from. So then I was like, okay, this is a thing. This is a thing.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
That would be a really cool cookbook. I have like a million cookbooks and that would be a really good one.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, it would be. Yes, I love it. I love it so much so many ideas. So thank you for focusing on protein as well. And I actually this is actually a really quick rabbit hole tangent question. But as I have heard you talk a lot about is it semi-glutide is how you say it. I thought that's how you say it. But then I was listening to your interview and

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
I say semaglutide, but some people call it semaglutide, so either one is this. Yeah, fine. I'll know what you're talking about.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm super curious that the studies that show, you know, these negative changes in body composition with the weight loss, so loss of muscle mass and such, do you think if the participants were actually eating a high protein diet that they would preserve muscle or do you think it's something else going on?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Oh my gosh, I love this question. Melanie, this is too fun. Well, okay, so let's talk about this because so many people misunderstand. So the GLP-1 receptor agonists and the GLP-1 GIP, which, so those would be semaglutide and terzepatide, brand names Ozempic, Wigovi is semaglutide, and then Manjaro and Zepbond are terzepatide. Those medications work in two places, right? They work in the brain and in the gut. And in the brain, it tells the brain you're satisfied, you don't really need to eat, and you're basically the drive is gone. So people love that because they're like, the food noise is gone, I'm not having cravings. And interestingly, it's also seeming to be helpful for addiction. So it just kind of kills that drive. And then it works on the gut by just slowing the movement of food through the gut, and also causing an insulin surge if you eat foods that have that digest down into glucose. All right, so this is important because what happens when you spike that insulin when you have an insulin surge is you turn off fat burning, you turn off access to your fat cells, right? So that's a massive energy source that you shut off access to. Okay, so now you don't want to eat, and your blood sugars look great because the insulin took care of whatever it was that you ate. And so basically, what happens is if you start running out of fuel, instead of burning the fat on your body, because the insulin is so high, it actually forces your body to start melting down a little bit of the muscle, right? So that's a very, very not helpful thing because it's so hard to keep our muscle and build muscle. Now fasting also causes people to not eat, right? Insulin is low, exactly. And so it has a fabulous effect turns on autophagy, which is the body recycling cells, it maintains the lean tissue because when insulin is low, you burn fat for fuel. So this is like a complete game changer, right? Yes, people are losing weight. And you are right, if they eat enough protein, that will stimulate muscle synthesis. And so you might be able to maintain more the muscle. And that's what we do in our clinics. So any of my patients that choose to be on one of these medications, we first make sure they're getting adequate protein before we prescribe these medications, because we want to make sure they get in the habit of doing that before they no longer care if they're eating enough, right? So you're right, we have been monitoring body comps, and they seem to be better maintained if the individual when they do eat, they prioritize protein. If they start with a piece of bread, it's over because they get full so fast, they don't eat their protein. Now they don't have enough protein to maintain their muscles, and they've probably spiked their insulin. And there we go.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, okay. Do you find that if they pair exercise with it that that helps maintain the muscle?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, it does, but they still need to eat enough protein, right? If your body turns over between 2 and 400 grams of protein a day and you're eating like 30 grams of protein, hello. You know, that's a problem.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you concerned about long-term effects that we might not be aware of?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Absolutely. Yeah. So there's so many, that's like a whole other topic. But the most important thing I think is if people are not prioritizing protein, not staying active, not drinking enough fluids, eating late at night, it's going to create problems. Absolutely. There's going to be, and that's long term. So you can lose weight in multiple different ways and some is good and some is bad. If you lose weight, like with cancer, you're losing muscle mass, right? That's terrible. And so same thing with these medications. If you do it right and you get appropriate counseling so that you know that you're getting adequate protein, you're doing all the things so that you can maintain your muscle and you can lose fat mass, then these medications can be very helpful. But if you don't have anybody teaching you how to do that or making sure you're doing that okay, it can create a huge problem. So we monitor multiple things, but a person can even look in the mirror. And if you look in the mirror and you look at your face and you notice that around your temples, you know, the parts right at your temples on the sides of your eyes, if that starts indenting dramatically, that's not what's supposed to happen, right? That's a loss of the wrong kind of tissues. So that's what we define as cockexia, losing more than 5% of body weight and really losing it in an unhealthy way.

Melanie Avalon:
have this study where you talk about the effects of these drugs and the effects they might have on people with plastic surgery and just the actual surgical procedure and such. But it was saying in the study that some of the, like the stomachs of those patients on these drugs, they could have food in their stomach after 18 hours of fasting. This is a really random question and I don't know if you know the answer, but I was just thinking about that and I was like, so does that mean that if you're 18 hours, you're 18 hours fasted, but there's food in your stomach. So is your body not going to like, will that food be signaling something to your body to not make adaptations into the actual fasted state?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
You know, that's a really good question. And I don't know that that's been studied. That's a super brilliant question, Melanie. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is because the food moves through so slowly and in different people, it's different, right? So some people, their stomach stops moving entirely and that's what all the problems with these meds are about, or some of the problems. But yeah, it's a huge problem because it could be signaling continuously, right? And we don't really know what exactly is happening with regards to the signaling there. And if, I mean, it might be published. I haven't seen it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so fascinating. And speaking of signaling, just a comment on something you were talking about earlier with the absorption of protein in a small window. We recently talked on this show about a study that came out pretty recently, and it was looking at the post absorption window of protein and muscle protein synthesis. And I have to find it, but basically the takeaway was that they only had really looked up until a certain point and just assumed that it wasn't really absorbing. So that was really nice to hear.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, and this is one of the things, Melanie, you've probably already figured this out too. Many of us have started recognizing or appreciating the human body is designed to thrive. It's not designed to always be the same. It's designed to adapt and thrive. So if your body needs something, we know, for example, iron is very hard to absorb. And if you have enough iron in the body, and you don't have a condition that causes excessive iron absorption, you won't absorb as much iron. But at times when your body needs iron, it will do better with the absorption of iron than at times when it doesn't need as much. So, you know, again, with the protein, if you need the protein, it's very unlikely that your body is going to ignore it as it goes by, right, just because it's hit a certain threshold that we have decided is the threshold or the time, right. So, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
It reminds me of, have you heard of, I think it's called hepcidin, which is basically like the insulin equivalent for iron, like it regulates iron absorption. And when I first found out about that, it's just a good example of, you know, things are being regulated. Like you were saying, the body has this natural intuition and desire to thrive. And so we could be thinking we're doing something, but it might not actually be what manifests because of these hormones at play. I tried to get my doctor to order that and he hadn't even heard of it and said he couldn't order it.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. Well, it is interesting because some tests that we do that people will come in and say things like, can you test my cortisol? Yes, I can test your cortisol and I can tell you what your cortisol is, but it tells you one moment in time, right? And are you going to change all of your behaviors because of a one moment cortisol test? Meaning at that moment, the stress hormone, where was it? Your life changes on a minute to minute basis. And this is one of the challenges is many people get caught up in one specific lab and they freak out. And understandably, I mean, I was one of those people too. I had to go to med school so I could feel better about it. But I think the most important thing is starting to recognize and appreciate the body changes and adapts to what it's trying to survive. It's trying to make it better for you. And that's why we adapt and get stronger. That's why we adapt and have better immune systems and so on. So yeah, it is hard because we don't know what to do with some of the labs that we get.

Melanie Avalon:
And so speaking of broader picture and, you know, tracking things beyond a single moment, how did you get acquainted with zero?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Oh yeah. So like I said, seeing so many patients, they teach you, right? So I remember, gosh, I don't even know how many years ago, but it was actually pre-COVID several years. I had a patient come in and we were doing instrument fasting for this patient's protocol, and they were having wild success. And I said, what's helping with your success? I'm always so curious. They said, oh, you know, there's this new app and it's called Zero. So I, of course, promptly had to download it and try it out. So since then, I have recommended and used it with patients over the years and through COVID, it was particularly helpful, especially when there were times of, you know, food shortages or concerns with the safety of different foods, you know, does the groceries have bugs, you know, whatever. And so it turned out to be really, really useful because there's a way to anchor and stay okay. And so then, you know, a little over a year ago, a year ago, the leadership team at Zero reached out and we connected. And so that was, you know, when I decided to join on and I've been super thrilled to see all these brilliant people both at the company and all of our users who have continued to give great feedback and inform us. And so it's really wonderful to have empowered individuals altogether, you know, sharing their information, sharing their data, and being excited about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I have questions. I'm fascinated by app development and everything. So, because now that you're mentioning that, I can see where I was in my life when I first used it. And it was in the beginning of COVID, I believe. So I, you know, looked at it recently in preparation for our interview. And it's changed a lot since I used it. It was a lot simpler. So your role in the company, how much of it is you informing the company versus you analyzing the data and learning? Like, what's the relationship there?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. So, I mean, it's actually quite a brilliant team. And so everybody's been really diving deep into the research, each individual person, you know, as far as I can tell, everybody lives what we preach, right? So that's really, really cool. So I am actually probably doing more of the science review. And, you know, when possible, I try to give some feedback with regards to different content that we might consider in the future or whatever, based on what my patients are saying. So it's actually really more around the science. I'm not looking at any of the data unless somebody sends it to us, right? So that's really, right now, I'm more involved in the science end and understanding how to best help people and provide the information in a simplified way. I just like to make it really easy. You know, I know there's some people who want to use big words and make it really complex. It's just not that complex, right? We want to make it simple and easy so that you can live your life and enjoy.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. So yeah, that was one of the things I was thrilled to see was, you know, all of these articles and so do you actually part? Okay, because you're my favorite person ever you have a there's a right now on the homepage, there's something from Peter to yet, like, does that actually partnering with him to create content for

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
So he was one of the brilliant people who at the start of Zero, I'm not sure how exactly he got involved or if he was one of the original individuals, but he obviously created fabulous content and knew there was a need. So currently he's not communicating with us about the app, he's got many more things to do.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so he was though in partnership, yeah.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, yes, absolutely.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm super curious the app, because it says it'll indicate sort of your fat burning status. What are your thoughts on that, especially when we're talking earlier about how people are all individual, like do people enter the fat burning state at the same time? How can we how can we know what's actually happening in a person's metabolism?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, this is what I mean by like genius people at the company. So they have over time, you know, put together both with the research and data analytics and so on been able to create a formula that really takes your information. So in the app, you can have it so that let's say your Apple health kit automatically feeds information into the app, any data that you are willing to share with yourself in the app and put in one place, then a mathematical formula calculates and helps determine that. So, you know, it'll take into account like if you had an aura ring, it'll take into account your physical activity and so on. So that's how that's done. That's how it's individualized.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was wondering, when you sign up, you ask your age and sex and everything. So I'm guessing it takes that into account to figure out as well.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Absolutely. Yep. And I think, you know, now that we have more and more sensors that are becoming available, over time, I think the information is going to get even better and better. Right. So right now, yes, you can get continuous glucose monitor, but there's continuous lactate monitors coming, right? There's so many, like, new measurements that can help us more finally figure out, okay, this is what's going on for you. Oh, your ketones are up. Okay, you are burning fat, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, awesome. We love cgms on this show. We talk about them all the time. Oh good me too big fans

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yes, they're so useful for so many people for learning.

Melanie Avalon:
I know if everybody, I honestly think if everybody did a CGM at least just once, it would just open the eyes. I think it would change the metabolic health of, you know, at least the US if everybody just did it once, you know.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. Yeah. You just really only need that two-week window to just kind of check it out and see how your behaviors are. And it is pretty interesting. But I, you know, I don't know if you found this, but I find some people, their sugars are pretty solid, like they're like a line, right? So they're not fluctuating that much. And when that happens, you know, then I'll have people come in and say, well, that wasn't very useful for me. Like, oh my gosh, but you're metabolically so healthy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's, you know, that's true. So with all the people, metabolically unhealthy people did it at least once. And so, so the actual content that you are reviewing in the app, have you seen any content that you have felt the need to update or change based on the science or how does it evolve?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah, we're definitely constantly updating and I think that's part of the fun of the whole team. So we'll post different research or we'll talk about what, you know, if people are struggling. This is why feedback is so helpful. So, you know, ask zero and send a note or question or comment. It helps us to fine tune and figure out, oh, okay. Because there's so much content now that, you know, sometimes we forget what's out there already. And so we have to like pull it in review and adjust. But so far, you know, other than things like, you know, protein dosing, right, that you don't need to have, you know, so many times of eating protein, you could do it in a short window, that type of stuff. Yeah, we definitely have to keep up to date on all of that. And of course, with these new medications, which are really changing the scene, I particularly interested in individuals who've been on or are on these injectable weight loss medications. We want to make sure, you know, we could help those individuals, for example, if they can't get their medicine or they're starting to have weight regain after they come off or something to that effect. I want to make sure we provide content around that and keep that up to date as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Yeah. Do you experience with your clients and patients weight regame issues or are they able to maintain after semi-glutide and osympic and things?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. So, so far, you know, the literature has been pretty clear and patient experiences are that most people will regain the weight if they come off the medicine. So, you know, there's different things people are trying. Do you use different medicines? Do you do a medication vacation and then restart? Do you sort of wean down? And then if the weight regain happens, you go back up. So, there's lots of different things happening. But what we're finding is it really, really matters if you've lost mostly fat or if you've also lost muscle. If you've lost muscle, we're in trouble, right? We are going to need to really be very careful about how we replenish nutrients. You know, again, this gets to the mTOR, the AMP kinase, like, you know, there's like a whole thing there. So, but we want to make sure we take care of people and help them, you know, stay as healthy as possible wherever they're at.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, when I'm, um, when I was in the app and it prompts you to subscribe and get the, the plus version, which gives you more access to more of the information or like the science information and everything it says, I mean, I'm assuming this is true. It says that the people who are in plus reach their goals two times faster. Do you think that's because of the exposure to all of the, like the information in the app or is there something else going on there?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Absolutely. So there's two things, right? One is that commitment to yourself. And, you know, sometimes that's enough. Tracking, we know that tracking makes a massive difference, right? That's also super important. And then thirdly, education and knowledge, the more you understand, you can't like unknow something once you know it, right? So if you learn something, and it is like fundamentally different than what you understood before, it changes how you approach, let's say, eating, or your physical activity, or, you know, your life. And it has this wonderful effect of just keeping it in your forebrain, right? So just by engaging, you're already making a commitment to yourself, you're already carving out a second of your time to just take care of you. And so I think there's multiple factors in there. But it is really impressive how responsive just making that decision is.

Melanie Avalon:
I know I love that so much and honestly, I'm going to start recommending this a lot because we talk on the show a lot about the role of tracking because a lot of people, especially with diet people, sometimes they don't want to get into diet mindset and they don't want to track and all of that, which I completely understand and want to support as well. And so something I like to say to people is you can actually, in a way, divorce the tracking of calories from the actually monitoring of calories and what I, or sorry, from actually changing what you eat. And what I mean by that is we know there's this observer effect where like you just said, just the act of tracking tends to make people lose weight and eat less without even meaning to. So instead, you know, like with the, and it's one of the, you know, issues with studies like and controlling them because yeah, that's exactly right. So I'll talk about that, but I haven't, honestly, in the seven years of this show, I don't think I've talked a lot about having an actual intense accountability tracker for the actual fasting aspect of it. So yeah, this is, this is really, really great. So do you use it daily?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Yeah. So I go through cycles. It's my most favorite reset tool. So if I've been off track or my life is just a little bit crazy, then it's really helpful to ground me and to make sure I'm paying attention to myself and the signals I'm giving to my body. So it's super, super helpful. Are there times I'm not using it? Absolutely. When I'm crushing it, I'm already in a good space. You know, I'm not having a scheduled disruption for sure. But what I like about it is I can track so many different things. But even just with the fasting timer, I can use that for example, like I might already have my fasting, you know, window and I'm doing that fine. But I might notice, you know what, I'm starting to eat a little bit not so great. You know, a little bit of these, you know, sweets have entered or salty, salty is usually my thing. And I want to get back on track. And, you know, since I had a celebration weekend, you know, I'm a little bit not focused, I'm still doing the fasting time, but I'm not eating what I want in that eating window. So then I'll use the fasting timer to for example, fast from fried foods or sweets or whatever it is. And I use it that way for that time period. Yeah. And so it helps me reset and just recalibrate. And if I didn't have that, you know, I could do it, but it would take up brain space. And I don't want to use my brain space for that. I want to, you know, do my life. And so that's how I'll use that as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Can you, so if you're doing that where you're accounting the fasting from a certain food, can you tell it that's what you're doing or does it think that you are fasting, fasting?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Right now you can't tell it what you're doing. It will think you're fasting. And so I will know what I'm trying to do in that time period.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Gotcha.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
I'll put a little marker for you can write little notes.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, very, very cool.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Because I'll already know, for example, that I'm doing a 16 .8, right? Most of the time, that's what I'm doing. And then there'll be times when I go down to 12 and times when I extend it longer. That's awesome.

Melanie Avalon:
And then the powerful, I love that there's the calendar for the streaks, because there's something really powerful about streaks. I mean, I do that like old school for some things, like with like a calendar and stickers. Me too.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
I do. I'm totally into that. It's so fun. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm in first grade again.

Melanie Avalon:
You get to put the sticker every night. It's so exciting. And what I did is I got this sheet of stickers, and every single one is a quote about abundance. And so it's like a meditation moment every night or a mindfulness moment where I like, yeah, it's a whole thing. I highly recommend.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Well that's so great especially if you're doing that at night because of course if you do something like mine fall it boost that btnf right that brain derived neurotrophic factor so you're and then you go to bed that's like so what a bonus.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this. This is amazing. So what are you most excited about with the future of this app?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
You know, I'm really excited about we're continuing to modify this experience for people so that we can meet them where they are and give them an experience of wild success with their own body, right? So again, personalizing it, figuring out what's going to make the difference and simplifying it as much as possible. Life is busy, right? Everybody's got other things they want to do. So we want to make it so, so easy to take great care of yourself and make it. Like, you know, just a little thing, but have a powerful impact, you know, helping the gut, the brain, the metabolism, the waistline, you know, all those things. So I think that's what I'm really excited about is trying to find better and better ways to make this possible for more people because that's our ultimate goal, right? Help as many people as possible live, you know, their life with, you know, health, longevity, this vitality that we all love.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this. Well, I'm just so, so grateful for this resource for people. So for listeners, again, you can go to ifpodcast.com/zero, and you can get a seven day free trial of zero of the plus version. And then you can always keep using it, not the plus version, or you can upgrade and get that version to stay. Okay, two really last quick questions for you. One is if you could design if you had unlimited funds and resources and all the things and you could design any study about fasting, what would you do or test?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Oh wow, I want to ask you, what would you want tested?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know if this is like the thing I would do if I had more time to think about it, but something I would love to do is I think I've come up with a way to test sort of like the placebo effect with fasting. Basically, I think they should do some trials where they tell the people they're testing a pill and the pill is not a sugar pill because I would mess things up. It has to be like a cellulose pill. And then they would tell the people that this pill can't be taken with food and you can't eat a certain amount of time before or after. So, then it would make people fast without realizing that they're testing fasting. I would just like some studies to use that setup because it would kind of like trick people into fasting and I think there's a lot of like potential there for looking at placebo effects and stuff.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Oh, wow. Yeah, that is super. That's a very interesting thought.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you could say it has to be taken in the morning and then you can't eat for X amount of hours and so that would you could force people into a long fast.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
That's true. That's true. Although I'm curious because a lot of people won't follow the rules. So we'd have to monitor.

Melanie Avalon:
You have to have them on like on like cgms on them and stuff. I know

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
that is a really interesting study and I'm very curious about that. That's a great idea.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's more a mechanism of study, but I don't know what I would do for like, actually testings. There's so many things. I think one of the things I'm haunted by is I really want to know, because I know speaking of Peter, I don't know if he's changed his mind, but he'll often say that effects of fasting are due to calorie restriction. And I would like more comparisons of calorie restriction and fasting to see if that is the sole reason or if it's something else.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
That's interesting because fasting does cause decrease in calorie intake, right? So is in it, I think it depends on what you're eating in your eating window, because if you are tapping into fat burning because your insulin comes down because you're fasting, yeah, you're gonna end up eating less and not wanting to eat more. That's the key, right? So or is it that you're not tapping into fat burning and you're starving and you want to eat something, but you're starving your body because the time's not up, right? This is exactly, that's exactly the point. So, you know, why is somebody eating that amount of calories? Whether it's a lot or a little, if it's because their body's hormone setup is set up that way, then that's in alignment with the body. But it's not in alignment if you're forcing the calorie restriction by force. That's why the fasting is so interesting because some people do it where they force themselves and some people actually, after a while, they're like, oh, no, I actually am fine. And it's because the body can actually fuel off the fat cells.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly. We didn't even talk about it. I know in your, in the input form, but you had something about cracking the circadian code. I would love more studies on, cause I'm such a late night eater. Are you, are you a late night or earlier when do you

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
I'm definitely not a morning person for sure. I'm with you.

Melanie Avalon:
So I would love more studies, like really controlled studies on actual fasting with late night eating because I have controversial thoughts on this.

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Well, you know, what's interesting is there are studies that show when people eat at a certain time and then they change it. So let's say you do eat late at night, but then you go into a new fasting pattern where you don't eat at night and you actually eat early in the day. So you shift your fasting time. It does have a metabolic effect. And so, you know, that's really, really interesting because it goes both ways. So I think, again, the human body is designed to, you know, make you be the best you. And first it's about survival. So if it has to protect you, it's going to start storing everything. If it feels like there's abundance and it can tap into all the fuels, then it can burn freely and give you all the energy you want and be able to do all of that.

Melanie Avalon:
So this is the last question that I ask actually on my other show, but I'm gonna bring it into this show because we don't normally have guests on this show. And it's just because I realize more and more each day how important mindset is. So what is something that you're grateful for?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Oh gosh, there's so many things. I'm grateful, actually, that you're running this podcast and that you're sharing information for the world to hear. I'm grateful that we actually have opportunities to share this information broader with all the new technologies available. And I'm grateful that people are curious and seeking this knowledge and that they're able to access some very, very new ideas and that we're learning. It's not that we just didn't have enough discipline, right? It's actually much more complicated than that and the body is super fabulous and it's able to take care of you.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Perilla. I am so, so grateful for what you're doing. It was so thrilling to be introduced to you, and it's really nice to know there's somebody like you. And it sounds like, from what you're saying, the rest of the company is amazing as well. But it's great to know that this is the team behind this app. It makes me feel really grateful and so excited to recommend it to everybody. So everybody, again, go to ifpodcast.com/zero. Get this app now. And yeah, thank you so much for everything. I really, really enjoyed this. This was so delightful. Is there anything else you want to say, any links you want to put out there, anything else for the listeners?

Dr. Naomi Parrella:
Melanie, I'm so grateful, like I said, for what you're doing and the messaging that you're giving to people to empower them. So thank you so much. I think the most wonderful gift is seeing the ripple effect. So you talk to one person, their lives change, and then it goes on and they spread that. And so I'm super grateful about that. And I think right now, I'm learning how to do Instagram. I'm really late to the show here. So I'm going to try to also start developing ripples like that. And I'm really grateful for this opportunity to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I'll just say really quickly, I was late to the Instagram game too and I was like really intimidated. It's awesome. You got this. It'll be great. Thank you for that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. All right. Awesome. We'll have a good rest of your evening and I will talk to you later. Bye. All right. Thank you so much, Melanie. Bye-bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Sep 15

Episode 387: Glucose Uptake & Disposal, Low Carb & Berries, Choosing A Keto Diet, Fat Loss, Appetite Suppression, Fad Diets, Avoiding Keto Mistakes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The clinical efficacy and safety of berberine in the treatment of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease: a meta-analysis and systematic review March 2024

Efficacy and Safety of Berberine Alone for Several Metabolic Disorders: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Randomized Clinical Trials

Welcome to Episode 387 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BETTERHELP: If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. BetterHelp is entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can also switch therapists any time for no additional charge. Never skip therapy day, with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/ifpodcast today to get 10% off your first month!

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or grass-fed ground beef—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

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SHOW NOTES

BETTERHELP: Visit betterhelp.com/ifpodcast today to get 10% off your first month!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or grass-fed ground beef—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Listener Q&A: Stacy - To keto or not?

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - Salivation breaks fast??

Listener Q&A: Amiee - When is the best time to take berberine?

Listener Q&A: Denielle - I have a question about Berberine. Is long term use ok?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 387 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 387 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm great. How are you? Good. I was telling you, I think it's about to start thunderstorming. So if you hear thunder, my question for you is, how do you feel about thunderstorms?

Vanessa Spina:
We are obsessed with them. My husband is like an amateur meteorologist, so he's got the weather radar on his phone. He watches it quite often, so he'll tell us if a big storm is coming, and then everybody gets excited, and Luca gets super excited, and he's like, we watch the storm, we get a lot of them in Prague, so lots of lightning and thunder, and I've always loved them. But yeah, do you enjoy them?

Melanie Avalon:
I love them. I find it so interesting. They make me feel so safe. Like, I love sleeping when there's a thunderstorm at night.

Vanessa Spina:
It's oddly comforting.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, and what's interesting about it is I remember I was talking to somebody and he was saying that they give him major anxiety and it made me realize just how much our experience of the world like our stress, our fears, our anxieties, our sense of safety, like it's all relative and probably all goes back to, you know, triggers and things from childhood. And it makes you realize that you could technically in theory be feel safe and good all the time. Like if certain, if your brain reacted to certain things, certain ways, I just, these are the things I ponder.

Vanessa Spina:
I love that. Yeah, I love summer storms. I get so excited when we get them here. Have you seen a tornado? I haven't in person. There was one here, I think last summer. So I saw a lot of videos of it here. And once when Pete and I were dating, I remember he was driving and we were talking on the phone and there was a tornado and he had to pull over under this bridge, this like underpass and hide there. And it was so scary. Oh, wow. Did you see it? Yeah, he did. And his sister, when we were in Denver last summer, there was a tornado in Littleton and it hit my sister-in-law's house, like basically took out the tree in their lawn. So they had to go and like whole of Littleton was like quite wrecked, not in a massive, massive way, but just enough that you're driving around and it looked like a tornado had come through there. So they are so scary. Have you ever experienced one? I have.

Melanie Avalon:
I haven't. I'm having flashbacks to high school when we used to have this, sometimes when my parents would go on vacation, we had this woman who would take care of us. She actually was a teacher at the school and she was from South Africa and she had a fabulous accent and she was crazy and amazing. I remember one time there was a tornado and she took us like, kind of like Twister where they're like chasing the tornado in the car. We like went in the car trying to find it. I don't remember if we actually saw it, which probably wasn't safe. But my mom, I know when she was, I think a young adult, a tornado hit her apartment and took the roof off, which is really scary. So anything new in your life? Lots of carbs. Lots of carbs. Oh my goodness. Because last time we talked about your oatmeal experience. Have you tried the way I eat where it's high protein and lots of fruit?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't, you know, it's, it's funny. So with reintroducing the carbs, it's like some appeal to me and others don't. I don't know why. I feel like I could try anything right now for the sake of science, you know, I've been trying different things, but it's weird when you haven't eaten something for so long, you almost like forget it exists. I don't really think about a lot of carbs. I have to really intentionally like think about it. Like I was explaining last week, I tried oatmeal because Luca wanted to try porridge because we're reading about it in the storybook, you know, and then I did test a banana actually had a banana today and yesterday also pre-workout before my resistance training and also had no reaction to it, which is, it's just boggling my mind because, you know, I'm learning, I'm truly learning real time how if you make your body more insulin sensitive by building more muscle and you have more glucose disposal, when you eat carbs, it could just go into your muscles. It doesn't even, you can divert nutrients into your muscles and energy because you're activating those glucose transporters, especially with large muscle groups. So like I do a lot of lower body squats and a lot of lunges and things with weights, you know, activating those large muscle groups, it moves the glucose receptors to the surface of the cells so you can take up glucose. And it's one thing reading that and understanding in paper and then seeing it real time for someone like me, who I thought maybe I didn't know if I had the metabolic flexibility or if I had that reverse insulin resistance, you know, from being keto and carnivore and everything for so long, I realized I've been actually eating more and more carbs over the years just from the carbs that are in yogurt, that are in other dairy foods. And, you know, it's, it's really fascinating. So I tested bananas, you know, I do a lot of berries, like in my protein shake, but that's kind of been a couple of years now. I don't really think of like other fruits, like it just

Melanie Avalon:
Just don't pop into your mind.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And even when I'm serving, I'm giving the kids watermelon or things like that, I don't have any pull to it at all. I don't know why. And there's a lot of carbs that I could have, I'm not interested in them. Anyone listening to me reintroducing carbs is probably confused by the way I've been approaching it. They're like, she's only testing hummus, chickpeas, black beans, you know, now oatmeal, bananas, like it's, it doesn't really, there's no like pattern to it. It's just kind of like what appeals to me that maybe I haven't had for a long time, like I kind of miss bananas. I wanted to try it and see what happened. And a just ripe banana, as Cynthia Therlogue calls it, doesn't affect my blood sugar at all, which is amazing. The oatmeal doesn't. So I'm curious to try more things, but I don't really know what to try next. You know, Oh, I did try a piece of jackfruit. Have you ever had jackfruit?

Melanie Avalon:
it when it's, you know, those like meat substitute things. Actually, actually, no, no, no, no, no. I think I used, I have had it in its original form. And I was trying, I was curious about it as a meat substitute. It was canned jackfruit. Did you have canned?

Vanessa Spina:
I had fresh jackfruit because I bought some for the kids and it was in the fridge. I haven't had it in so long and I was having the banana. I'm like, let me try a piece of jackfruit. And it was great. Also didn't have any like insulin or glucose spike after that. I'm not testing fruit or oatmeal or carbs or anything on days that I'm not working out. And that's one of the things that I talked about with Kara that she recommended for people who are reintroducing carbs is to make sure that you're adding in like the resistance training and the exercise to help blunt those responses. And it really is amazing. But I've never tried high protein, high fruit. It makes me think of you. It also makes me think of Dr. Paul Saladino. You know, I think yeah, there are some people definitely doing that. And I feel like I'm trying to stay somewhat low carb. Like I don't know if I want to go like high carb, high protein, I do want to say somewhat low carb because I do still have some healthy fats in my diet. So if I were to go like zero fat, I could probably try high carb, but that also doesn't really appeal to me. Like I love salmon and steak and eggs and, you know, a lot of the foods that I eat have fats in them. So I wouldn't, I don't want to, you know, approach any kind of energy toxicity situation with like high carb, high fat, and I even moderate it. It's easier to just do one or the other, as you know. So right now I'm kind of doing like low carb with, you know, a good healthy amount of healthy fats, but not too much. But yeah, that's what's new in my life is carbs. And I, I feel so liberated from learning more and more of the science around, especially glucose spikes and responses and how you can really build up your metabolic flexibility and your energy and glucose disposal through exercise. It really is amazing. If I had known this, and I remember there was a time in my life when I was probably the most fit I've been, I was doing a lot of exercise, probably too much cardio at the time, but I was weight training and I was eating a lot of carb, but I was not eating enough protein. I didn't understand protein the way that I do now. So if I could go back and if I was prioritizing protein, probably would have just stayed, kept doing that all these years, you know, and that was kind of when I was in university and I was also at my most, probably my, my most lean at any other time in my life then was doing sort of low fat approach, high carb, but the protein piece was missing. So I never really felt that, that satisfied as I do now. So it's, it's really interesting to me anyway.

Melanie Avalon:
Just to respond to the one piece about the, like, eating the fattier meat and then the high carb. So this is literally, this is just my experience, my N of 1. I have found for me that as long as I don't, as long as in general, I eat lean protein in general, so scallops, chicken breasts, fillet, Australia's Bare Moondi. And then if I have salmon occasionally, as long as I'm not adding fats, I haven't experienced any feelings that it creates any sort of competition with the fat and the carbs. I feel like there's just, and the reason I'm talking about this is I just feel like there's a big difference between adding fats to your food, like butter, oils, things like that. Even in small amounts, because when you add it in just a pure fat form, it's literally just the fat substrate compared to when it's in the whole foods form, well, A, there's less of it. And then I think digestion wise, it just requires a bit more. And A, the reason I'm talking about this is because I used to be, I think, a little bit fearful about it, especially since I was so high carb. But I've definitely landed at a place I feel good about, where as long as I just eat whole foods, protein, meat and fish, seafood sources, I feel okay about combining it with lots of fruit. That's just me though, which is my experience.

Vanessa Spina:
No, that's that's really helpful. Do you ever eat other like high? I know you for a while you did like lots of pineapple. I don't think you ever eat things like oatmeal or it's

Melanie Avalon:
really only been fruit. So, starches, it's interesting. So, starches make me feel, they make me feel actually too full, like heavy. They actually make me retain a lot of water and feel bloated. I just, I, oh, you know what? I'm having flashbacks. I was experimenting for a while where I would have like white rice and that was seemingly okay. But in general, I just, I really like the fruit and it's interesting. So, I'm actually prepping right now to interview the authors of The Mind Diet, which is, it's pretty much like the diet for Alzheimer's and dementia. It was the woman, she actually passed away. So, the book is actually written by her daughter and somebody else who worked in her program. She actually passed away of like a very rare cancer, which is really sad. She did this major, she did The Mind Diet trial a while ago and it was the first, you know, large study looking at diet to prevent cognitive decline and they came up with this whole mind diet thing and so I'm reading that book right now. But what's interesting is the only fruit in their mind diet is berries. So, you can have berries, but not other fruits.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's what I naturally have been doing for a while, I think, because it's low-therapy.

Melanie Avalon:
low-carb. Low-carb, that's why it's on the plan or that's why you have it. That's why.

Vanessa Spina:
I have had berries is because of the keto and low carb, but that's interesting because I would assume that's why they're also on that diet.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's, well, that's part of it. It's more so just studies that have been conducted on different produce and fruit. Berries and their research have been the only ones that really strongly seem to correlate to preventing cognitive decline. And it probably has to do with a lot of the polyphenols in berries. Yeah. So it makes me feel good about my pounds of blueberries that I eat every night.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, in a way, you're still kind of low carb. I know you've done high carb before, but.

Melanie Avalon:
probably, I don't think it's not low carb. It's probably, it's probably moderate carb. I mean, I probably had about 150 grams of carbs in berries and cucumbers. So yeah, lots of carbs, lots of protein. Yep. So okay, eating. Should we answer some listener questions? Actually speaking of, because our first question from Stacy, she wants to know, too keto or not? She actually submitted that on Facebook. And then I asked her, what had she done? And she said, Oh, girl, pull up a chair. She said, I've done them all. Weight watchers, cabbage soup, keto. However, I'm an IF 'er for 2 .5 years after finding Jen Stevens. And then, of course, I found you. So the ultimate question, how should people know if they actually should do or try a keto diet?

Vanessa Spina:
I've been talking about this a lot recently on my podcast with multiple guests about how helpful keto can be specifically for people who want to improve metabolic flexibility and tap into fat stores, lose some body fat. And it's really interesting because the ISSN, the International Society of Sports Nutrition, which is sort of like a governing body in my field because I'm a sports nutrition specialist, they just came out with this position stand on ketogenic diets. And they basically said, look, if you want to do keto for athletic performance, it's probably going to have a neutral effect, could potentially have a detrimental effect, but it's probably going to have a neutral effect depending on the sport that you do. But at the end of the day, keto is superior in the research for fat loss. And I've looked at so many studies over the years. I really think you can do any kind of approach in terms of your fuel mix. If you prioritize protein, I think you can also do keto, which is a lower protein approach for a while. It is really helpful for burning fat, for losing some fat mass. And losing fat mass is one of the best things you can do to improve your metabolic health. It has so many benefits. Just in terms of longevity of cardiovascular health, cardio metabolic markers, it is really, really helpful to lose fat and also improves insulin sensitivity as we talked about. But it can also help you with getting some ketones on board and improving your ability to burn fat, as I mentioned. But if your goal is, for example, fat loss, ketogenic diets are extremely helpful in the sense that they are very effective, the evidence has shown, the scientific literature has shown very effective for fat loss. The ketones that you get also help to suppress appetite. And because you tend to eat more protein and healthy fats, these are also GLP1 agonists in the body, so they can help with satiety and fullness, especially protein. Although the protein is not necessarily that high when you're doing traditional keto, it is when you're doing more modified keto. So some people find keto to be a great lifestyle. They really enjoy that style of eating and it is something that is sustainable long-term. Like I said, there are some advantages to it in terms of fat burning and also satiety. But ultimately, I would prefer someone choose a strategy that they can adhere to more long-term. So if you do keto and you're kind of white-knuckling your way through it, I wouldn't say that's probably the best choice because it's not going to be an enjoyable experience. Some people, they really take to keto really well. Like I did, I really enjoyed eating that way for a long time. I think it was partly because I was plant-based and vegetarian for so long. I really love the emphasis on animal foods and animal protein and just how satiating it was to do. But I think that if you are someone who prefers to eat high carb with optimized protein intake and that's something that you could sustain for longer and you are enjoying that more, then I would say you could lose fat either way. It really comes down to a caloric deficit. Some people find it easier to do like a higher carb approach, low fat, and some people find it easier to do keto. So I would say if it's something easy, organic, enjoyable for you, then it's definitely worth a try if your goal is fat loss. But you can also achieve fat loss just as well with other approaches that are not as restrictive for some people. So I would say it comes down to personal preference and what is ultimately going to be more sustainable. What are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
loved all of that so much. Yeah, it really, really comes down to your goals and it comes down to like Vanessa was saying, what works for you personally, just because the type of personality I am, I love self experimentation, and I love seeing how things feel in my body. So for me, I'm like, I sort of would love if everybody could try it at least once just to see how it feels like to experience that state and see if it works for you. And if it's something that you want to keep in your life more or not, I do what's interesting about the weight loss studies. And I think we've talked about this before. I remember there was like this massive review on low fat versus low carb diets in which worked best for weight loss. And then they concluded that there was no difference. And what was a little bit frustrating about that because I've heard that study referenced on multiple podcasts. We've even heard like Lane Norton talk about it. But the nuance of the study was that it basically averaged out to no difference. But if you looked at the individual responses of people, there were big differences. So basically some people lost more weight on low fat and some people lost more weight on low carb. But because when you took all of the data together, it was similar weight loss or, you know, not a statistically significant difference in the amount of weight loss. They were like, okay, it's all the same. But literally that's like not what I found at all. It found that people react differently to the different types. So it really just goes to speak about how much you have to find what works for you. Like Vanessa was saying, it can work for weight loss. Other things can work for weight loss. I would probably try it if, well, if I would try it if I had certain therapeutic health things that I was looking at. So I was speaking earlier about the mind diet and theirs is not a ketogenic diet, but it is lower carb. And I think it also probably depends on where you're coming from. So like if you're coming from a standard American diet, a high carb diet, I think keto can be a great way and Vanessa was mentioning this as well, but a great way to, you know, get your body metabolically adapted to burning fat and really help just like fix the machinery that can be so broken from our modern diet. So I think it can be a really great stepping stone into, you know, potentially really, I don't like the work fixing because it's not like you're broken, but you know, really optimizing your metabolism. And I guess what I would ask first Stacy, because she's tried keto before and she's tried, you know, other things before and she's been doing intermittent fasting for two point for two and a half years. So my question is, So why do you have this question? Like, why are you contemplating? Why did you not, why did you stop doing it in the past? Why are you contemplating doing it now? And why are you on the fence? Like, I would be really, I would ask myself, if I was Stacy, I would ask myself that question. And I think those answers might reveal which direction you should go. You know, is it because are you on the fence because you don't know if it will work? In which case there's, I'd be curious what type of keto you try in the past, and there's a lot of different versions of keto people can try. That's the other thing, and Vanessa also touched on this, because keto can manifest in so many different ways that may or may not help support your ideal state of being that you would like to be in. So there's a big difference between like a high, especially when it comes to weight loss and things, like a super high fat version to keto, which is what a lot of people jump in, versus a, not a low fat keto, but just a high protein where you're not adding on tons of fat. I think there's a lot of metabolic magic that can happen for people when they try that approach if weight loss is one of their goals. Also, I've talked about this, I haven't talked about this in a while, but I do think there's another approach you can try where if you do wanna add fat, only adding fat in the form of MCT oil, that fat is actually very thermogenic and it stimulates the metabolism, and it's also not easily stored as fat. So it's kind of like this keto hack where you can have more fat in your meals, but if weight loss is the goal, it can potentially be more supportive of weight loss. Yeah, I feel like I'm talking all over the place, but basically to keto or not, I would highly recommend people try it and see how it feels. And ultimately, I just really wanna support not getting into any fear-based mindsets and feelings that you have to be doing one way. And it goes both ways. So when I was keto for a long time, I was terrified of carbs and I was terrified of bringing them back in. I think a lot of people on the flip side will be really scared of fat and they'll be really scared of doing a more keto approach. So ultimately, I just wanna encourage people not to have a fear mindset surrounding all of this and just be curious. It's exciting, actually, all the potential things to try. Did you ever try the cabbage soup diet or Weight Watchers?

Vanessa Spina:
I never tried Weight Watchers. I did try the cabbage soup. That was really big when I was in university. And so was the lemon one, the lemonade.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, the master cleanse one with the lemon and they have like the cayenne pepper or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, the maple syrup with lemon juice. I mean, I don't know if it's funny, all these different things. They always are communicated in a way that they have like magical properties, you know, that they're the combination of the cabbage with this and that is creating some kind of fabricating effect. But it's really just thinking back on it now, like just really very low calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
right yeah I can see how like maybe the pepper stimulated the metabolism like a little bit but mostly it's just that you're yes very low-calorie and no fat like like literally no fat exactly so yeah I I don't think did I do cabbage soup I feel like I probably did in high school I didn't do Weight Watchers I remember looking at the food list and it was crazy it had literally every potential thing you could eat on there like there are all these animals on there it's like raccoon it's like who's eating raccoon that's like my memory of Weight Watchers

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, the most like the biggest diet thing that I changed or tried really was Atkins because it was so different, but I really was not doing it properly. It's funny because you, you know, you think like some of these, because we've both been like in this space for a long time, some things seem very straightforward. But, you know, I look back on the mistakes that I made and I always think about when I did Atkins, you know, it was, I definitely was, was still eating carbs, like I remember, I was eating so much fat, but I was still eating carbs with it. And I wasn't eating like any protein because I didn't understand protein at the time. You were eating carbs, like what carbs? Like I would, I would eat things that still had, like, I remember during induction, you know, they're like, you should eat like Philadelphia cream cheese. But I would, I would put like poppy seed dressing with it or like, and that was, you know, it definitely had like sugar or honey or something in there. But I thought, like, I just didn't get it. And, and, and it's, it seems so obvious to me now, but at the time I just didn't get that you shouldn't be doing that. And I, yeah. And I remember when I started keto, I was just eating so much fat and I gained a lot of weight, like I gained 20 pounds. And it was so funny to me because I didn't, I didn't expect to gain weight on it because I was following like the main keto at the time, which was, you know, like recommending to do things that would get you really high blood ketones. And I was testing my ketones and I was getting like four, five, 6 .0 millimolar. And I was just eating a lot of like omelets with cream cheese and like avocado and fat bombs. Just like so much fat, really no protein, like, well, actually I'm in the eggs, but not a lot of protein, like traditional keto. My ketones were through the roof, but I was definitely overeating calories from eating so much fat. And so, but because I was in ketosis, I didn't think that I would gain weight. And I, I seriously thought that something was wrong with my dryer because I was like telling Pete, like, I think my clothes are shrinking in the dryer. Like I think there's something wrong with the dryer. Like that's how psychologically I, I couldn't, I had some kind of like, what is it called? Cognitive distance. Like I didn't understand that I could gain weight doing keto because I thought I'm doing it perfectly. And I just thought that my, my clothes were shrinking. It sounds so ridiculous, but Pete and I were in Las Vegas and we had a photo taken in the same place that we had a year ago when we were there for a friend's wedding. And we did like recreated the same pose and we went back up to like our hotel room and I saw the photo and I was like, whoa, cause I did like a side by side. And I was like, I think I need to weigh myself. And I was, I had gained 20 pounds and it's crazy to think that you could be in denial so hard that you wouldn't even realize that. And I didn't want, I didn't step on the scale because I thought I'm have to be losing weight. I'm got really high ketones. And so I completely understand all the mistakes that people make when they try keto and they, you know, do all the fat bombs and do all of this. And it can be helpful to transition as long as you don't overeat on calories and you gain weight in the process because then you're just worse off than you were at the beginning. Whereas you can get into ketosis without adding all that fat and without doing all the fat bombs and, and eating all the cream cheese and everything. And I think also because people are tend to restrict fat when they start keto, they're like, oh my gosh, this tastes so amazing. Everything tastes so amazing that you almost can't help but overdo it a little bit. So I know so many people that, you know, that happened too, but that was, it's so easy now looking back to realize all the things that I was doing wrong. But at the time it was really hard to understand what I was doing wrong.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. It's interesting. I had some similar experiences. Well, I definitely had the epiphany moment, but it was probably a catalyst in me starting keto. But I had that moment where I weighed myself. It was after when I went to college and I definitely gained a freshman 15, but I remember I hadn't been weighing myself at all. And then I went on vacation with my family. We were in Aspen and I weighed myself and it was the same thing. I'd gained 20 pounds. And I was like, how did I gain 20 pounds? And that was after like a semester, you know? I'm like never going to do something.

Vanessa Spina:
Wait, was it because you did Keto or just because you're in school?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm glad you asked. So that was, I had not done keto yet. And then I went to college and I, you know, it's like buffets and it's, you know. So after the first semester, because going to Aspen would have been spring break. So yeah, a little bit over one semester or I guess three fourths of the year. Yeah, that was not a fun moment. And then I think that's when I was like, okay, I got to lock this down. And then I think somewhere after that ish time, because sophomore, that was freshman year and then sophomore year is when I found the keto world. I think looking back, I like how you shared like, you know, the things you would have done differently and the mistakes. For me, what I would do differently and my thoughts about that is that I had, I just remember having this idea in my head, especially from reading all the keto forms and everything. I was like, oh, like fat, fat does not get stored as fat. Like that's what they make you kind of like, they're not, they make you think it, but there's definitely like a community there, especially in the Atkins world. Like you're mentioning where it's like fat is unlimited, like all the fat all the time. And I literally have this picture in my head of like eating fat and it just like going through me. Like I was like, I won't absorb it because insulin is low. And now I just know that's so not true. That's not accurate. I've said it a lot, but the reason insulin is low, the reason fat does not stimulate a lot of insulin is because it doesn't need a lot of insulin to be stored as fat. Major paradigm shift there. And I do think if, especially if we're talking about like keto and stuff, I think a lot of people, especially if keto is not working for them, if they are still having lots of like dairy and cheese, I think that's a good place to start. I think there's a, I think there can be a big difference for the weight loss/weight gain potential of a keto diet with like a lot of cheese and dairy compared to a version without it, because cheese and dairy are pretty much a hormonal food that is made to help support weight gain in a baby.

Vanessa Spina:
I've changed my thinking on, on, I used to always tell people to avoid dairy during fat loss periods, but I've really found, especially the research done by Dr. Stu Phillips, high protein, low fat dairy is one of the best tools for putting on lean mass, especially in women. Mm-hmm. It's like cottage cheese.

Melanie Avalon:
cheese and stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like I tend to do low fat yogurt, which is high protein. And that's a staple in my diet every day. And there's so many things you can do with it. You know, you can make it into salad dressings. You know, it's so great just with like yogurt, protein powder, maybe some berries in there, but it's such a versatile food and yeah, I mean, some people love the cottage cheese. I've, I've tried that a couple of times and it's great as well. And that's, you know, there are now more and more high protein dairy options in the store, you know, they even have like a high protein Philadelphia cream cheese, which I recently tried the one here was not super flavorful, but it was okay. But maybe the one, you know, I'm sure they have some different options in the US, so that was not my favorite one, but I have this amazing high protein yogurt. And I've had some other cheeses that I liked that are just lower in fat and therefore higher in protein. And, you know, I think in the past I was always like don't do the dairy because if you look at most dairy foods, they have 20 to 30 grams of fat per hundred gram serving, so they're 20 to 30% fat. But the higher protein dairy can be, I would say if you're for fat loss under 5%, so yogurt that is zero or 2%, you know, the closer to zero you get, you know, the better tool it is for higher protein, lean mass gains. And, and if you are doing body re-composition, I'm a big, big fan of it. And whey protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Sorry, I'm so glad you said that. And I actually am. I'm actually in literally complete agreement. So I'm really glad we're talking about that nuance. And yeah, I guess I'm talking more about like, cheese, like the normal cheese, like the full the fuller fat cheese where, which is so, and maybe this is me, but it's so addicting to me, like cheese, I would just keep eating cheese. And for people who respond that way, we know it's a lot of it has to do with it's actually made to release case of morphine, basically bonding compounds, like feel good neurotransmitters in you because it helps bond the child to the mother. So it can have kind of like almost opioid like effects. Who cheese I would just I can't I'm like, I have to be like an all or none person with cheese because cheese is a slippery slope. I do want to clarify I actually I agree as well about the potential magic with the low fat high protein dairy foods. Be really careful though. And Vanessa provided like a lot of examples of good versions of that. Be careful when you are looking at those products because oftentimes, they make up for the lack of fat with a lot of additives. Look at labels when you are looking at those products to make sure it's not filled out with all of these like gums and stabilizers and additives and flavors and things like that. Yeah, there's definitely a big movement though. And I think especially in the I don't know wouldn't be paleo would be more the well, maybe it's the paleo world. There's like this movement where you shouldn't have low fat dairy because you need the fat to get the health benefits and it's too processed. And I actually I just I actually don't agree with that. I think if you can find, like I said, versions that don't have all those additives, I think it can be a great food.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, one of my favorites, it's harder to find sometimes in the US, but sometimes you can find it is I have this goat cheese. I really like goat cheese and it's 10% fat. So it's similar to the high protein cream cheese, but it tastes so much better to me than some of the lower fat cheeses. Sometimes the lower fat cheeses are kind of plain, but for some reason the goat cheese, maybe just it just has a little bit of fat in it and like 10 grams, like a moderate amount. And I use that quite a bit as well, just with like unprotein bread or salmon, like smoked salmon cream cheese. So yeah, I think there are some great options and it's such a great, it's a whole food category. So, you know, I don't know, some people are really strict, like when they're saying just don't have any dairy during fat loss. Usually it's don't have any dairy and don't have any nuts. I definitely agree on the nuts, except for the nut milks. You know, I think like we both said, there's lots of.

Melanie Avalon:
options for that. That's why for a while period of time I was making my own cottage cheese because I couldn't I wanted fat-free cottage cheese and all the fat-free cottage cheeses on the market have all of this stuff added to them and I was like I'm just gonna make my own and I kept googling it they're like you can't make it with skim milk and I was like I think I can and it did work mostly. That was the whole phase. The timing was off because I was doing that and then I feel like I stopped and then cottage cheese became like super popular so I missed that trend. The nuts are interesting because there's a lot of correlational studies that find nut intakes correlate to lower weights but I think that's more speaking to the types of diets that people are following maybe not so much I don't know it's really interesting but I will say if you just think about it from a evolutionary historical perspective if you were to eat nuts out in the wild like getting nuts shelling nuts like there's a lot of energy required to get like a nut like a lot of energy like you want like a walnut you gotta like go get the walnut off the tree you gotta crack the walnut then you got the walnut compared to um you know these jars of just shelled nuts that's just so much energy with no energy expenditure required to get it and yeah so I think nuts can be a dangerous slope for some people. Cashews are my downfall.

Vanessa Spina:
They are so good.

Melanie Avalon:
Shall we, nah, I'm getting hungry. Shall we go on to our next question? This question comes from Jennifer. The subject is salivation breaks fast with two question marks. Jennifer says, thank you so much for your dedication to researching all things IF and beyond. I love your podcast and I binge listened since I started my IF journey about three weeks ago. My question is, if smelling food causes salivation, which technically is the start of digestion, can this break a fast or have any impact on a fast? I simply cannot control the sights and smells of food around me while fasting. I can only control what I put into my mouth. Thanks again for everything and keep up the great work. I know we've talked about this topic before, but it's been a while and I just also love her sentence, which is such a beautiful mantra, which is, I'm gonna say it again. I simply cannot control the sights and smells of food around me while fasting. I can only control what I put into my mouth. So much agency in that statement. I love it. Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this?

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely understand the thinking here and also because of things like the cephalic phase insulin response, which has to do with tasting sweet things that secreting insulin. From what I've learned regarding insulin, especially in the last couple of years, it sort of changed the way that I perceive it and understand its mechanisms in the body. I personally would not be concerned with any small elevations in insulin because the majority of the insulin that is secreted by the pancreas is helping your body to not only clear your bloodstream of different fuels and store them away and put them away in the right cells to be used for energy, but also for keeping energy in your cells. I wouldn't be concerned with any insulin responses if that's what you are concerned about, but I think what you're specifically asking about is digestion. I think, again, it's a really interesting question, but I don't think that this would have any material effect on a fast. Even though I know there is research and I know that, for example, Melanie and Jin have talked in the past about tasting things in certain sensory, I think maybe even Jin talked about different food smells. This is not something I personally would be concerned with. I think it also comes down to your goal with intermittent fasting. The science really shows us that intermittent fasting does have some benefits beyond caloric restriction, but it really is mostly a tool for caloric restriction. Having any sights and smells of food around you because you're not ingesting any food, it wouldn't have any effect ultimately on your outcome. However, it might just be more challenging for you to do the fast. If you're constantly around food stimuli, that's the only thing that I could think of that it would make it potentially more difficult. If you're trying to fast and you are constantly around the sights and smells of food, as you mentioned, that's the only negative that I would personally see from it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm in agreement and so something that's helpful to know about the cephalic phase response of releasing insulin, it's actually a two-part response. And so basically there's a little bit of insulin that's like primed and ready to go and that's what's released. I think it probably can be released from smells, but it was released from basically anticipation and so having that first taste. And then once you actually start eating, then the pancreas jumps in and actually starts churning out a lot of insulin. So the good thing about that is, and this is just my theory, but my theory with that knowledge would be that if you smell something really delicious, maybe you have that first phase cephalic insulin response, but it caps just a little bit of insulin and then you'd have to actually be eating to get the actual, you know, intense insulin response. So knowing that has really helped me with that perspective. To go back again to what she was saying about controlling your environment versus what you put in your mouth, I just really, really like what she said there because in general you probably can't really control the sights and smells of food. I mean, you can to some extent, but you want to live your life and if you're passing smells and things like that, I just want people to know that even smelling the things and all the things like you, you still have that moment between actually eating them or not. So I wouldn't stress, I wouldn't stress about the sights and smells. I wouldn't purposely engage in them or go looking for them, but they're not going to ruin your fasting. They're not going to start digestion to any grand extent. And you still have complete control over everything that you're doing. And like Vanessa was saying, we do have a baseline state of insulin being released all the time and that is to keep our energy in our cells. And I think that's a huge paradigm shift that a lot of people don't realize. Like it's not like there's no insulin and then there's insulin. No, there's always baseline insulin keeping your fuel in your cells, which is a very healthy, necessary needed process. So insulin is not to be feared. If you do release a little bit from that first phase of the cephalic response, still nothing to be feared. It's all okay. Keep on keeping on. Shall we answer another listener question?

Vanessa Spina:
Sure. So we have a couple of questions about berberine. Amy from Facebook says, when is the best time to take berberine fasted before eating after eating? Question mark. And then from Danielle. Hi, ladies. First of all, thank you for the podcast. It's a bright start to my week. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you so much. I have a question about berberine is long term use. Okay, I know that the two of you are seekers of the truth and investigate multiple perspectives. Thus, I want you to answer not some Google search. I have found very scary studies that say berberine can cause cancer. I have found studies that say it really doesn't do much, but most studies say use it for three months and then take a break. I have been using berberine since August along with longer fast and a few other changes. I'm seeing my body change slowly but surely I don't want to stop taking it, especially as we go into the holidays. However, I will if it is best to take breaks from it. I currently take two of Melanie's capsules at the end of my eating window around 6pm. So please answer is berberine safe to use all the time. Do I need to cycle its use? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you and have a fabulous day.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Thank you so much, Amy and Danielle for your questions. Yes. So I haven't talked about brain in a while on this show, but basically it is a compound, a natural plant, phytochemical compound that has incredible effects. People think about it often for blood sugar control. So studies have found that it can be comparable to metformin for glycemic control, but has so many beneficial effects beyond that for an array of health benefits, especially like cardiovascular health and cholesterol and even anti-cancer benefits, which is interesting given Danielle's concerns about cancer potential. So I will first answer the, I guess the safety question from Danielle. So I would be curious. So I looked a lot. I couldn't find any scary studies saying berberine causes cancer. So I would love to read those. I'm wondering if it's people talking about that potential. I couldn't find it. And I also couldn't find studies saying to take a break from it, but I have heard a lot of people say that. So I actually thought, so when I sat down to research, I thought I was going to find a lot of studies saying that. I couldn't find them. So the majority of studies, I found a lot of studies on berberine safety though, and efficacy, and they're all very, very promising. So there was a lot of meta-analyses. So I looked at, for example, clinical efficacy and safety of berberine and the treatment of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. That was a meta-analysis and systemic review from March, 2024. I looked at one called efficacy and safety of berberine alone for several metabolic disorders, a systemic review of meta-analysis. That was in 2021. And then I also looked within those reviews. They would reference other reviews. I looked at one on cardiovascular disease that I don't have in my notes right here. What was interesting is that pretty much everything I looked at, would talk about how berberine has very high safety and that it doesn't come with these problems of pharmaceutical drugs. So that was just like the thing I kept reading over and over was that there's not, there doesn't seem to be a ton of issues that the most common side effects there would be would be GI issues. For most of those, they tended to go away, they tend to be either in particularly high doses, but when that was found, it was not across the board. Some of the studies did talk about how those side effects went away by the end of the trial, but it really does seem to be GI issues that people seem to experience if they do. Oh, they're also potentially, obviously, of course, always talk with your doctor because there could be drug interactions. But I just wouldn't be concerned, I couldn't find scary things. I would love to read them. If you do have them, feel free to send them to questions@ifpodcast.com because I would definitely love to read them and update accordingly. But everything seemed pretty good about the safety profile. And then as far as when to take it, so the dosages can range for it. In general, the dose is usually around 500 milligrams, three times per day before meals is a common approach, so that's 1,500 milligrams per day. But it seems to range in general from around 500 milligrams to 2,000 milligrams per day. My AvalonX Berberine 500, each capsule is 500 milligrams, so two capsules is 1,000 milligrams. I personally take two in the morning during my intermittent fasting and then I take two before my meal. When it comes to timing and when to take it, I would take it, most of the studies seem to have people take it before their meal. So for Danielle, who's taking it at the end of her eating window, I would switch that, take it before your meal and try that. Yes, what I've done, and this is just how I naturally cycle it, but it's not that much intense with cycling. I still take it every day in the morning, but I actually don't take it if I'm doing a low-carb approach, and so that's how I take a break from it. But in general, I do take it every day. And it was really nice to go through all the reviews because I was just looking for safety and efficacy, but I was just hit with the overwhelming amount of health benefits that this supplement has. It's really, really incredible, especially the effects on cardiovascular health and the number one killer or the number one disease killer is cardiovascular-related disease. So to see its beneficial effects on that was amazing. Same with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, and there are some showing anti-cancer benefits as well. And then I definitely formulated my berberine, my AvalonX berberine, to be the very best on the market. It's free of all problematic fillers. It comes in a glass bottle. And wearing a CGM, before that, I was using Thorne, which is a company. I do love Thorne. I think it's a really great company. I've actually interviewed the CFO, sorry, the CSO of that company. That said, I actually, when I started taking my berberine, I thought it would be comparable to Thorne, that I would see the same effects on my CGM, and I actually saw even greater reductions in blood sugar, which was amazing. I would not be fearful of berberine, but of course, speak with your doctor, your knowledgeable health practitioner, hopefully one who is holistically minded. Anything else, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I think you covered it really thoroughly and yeah, I don't really know very much about berberine. I've never used it myself. I know that it has some really amazing effects. So yeah, it's a great overview of all the research on it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's really cool. It also stimulates autophagy and AMPK, which is really, really cool. Something we talk about a lot in this show. Okie dokie. Well, I think that is all the things. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. We are thinking of doing some listener interviews in the future. So if you would like to come on the show and share your story, well, A, you can email questions@ifpodcast.com. You can also go to ifpodcast.com/submit and you can submit your testimonial and submission there. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon, Vanessa's @ketogenicgirl. Oh, and the show notes, so many things. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/387. And if you are enjoying the show, the absolute best way to support it, I kid you not, is to subscribe and write a brief review in Apple podcasts. It helps so very much. Okie dokie. Well, anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. Thanks to our listeners for the great questions and looking forward to more next week. Me too. I will talk to you then. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Sep 08

Episode 386: Fasting Terminology Consensus, Adjusting To Time Restricted Eating, Perception Of Fullness, Metabolic Flexibility, Pre-Workout Meals, Fasted Exercise, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

International consensus on fasting terminology

Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Listener Q&A: Patti - I’m sure it’s different for everyone but... how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to IF?

Dietary and physical activity adaptations to alternate day modified fasting: implications for optimal weight loss

Four weeks of 16: 8 time-restricted feeding on stress, sleep, quality of life, hunger level, and body composition in healthy adults: a pilot study on wellness optimization

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 386 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 386 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. There's a pretty cool product I sort of want to tell the audience about that I've been using that I'm becoming increasingly obsessed with, if you'd like to hear about it. So have we talked about this? How much do you obsess about sleeping, like sleep environment?

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe a little bit more than the average person, not insane.

Melanie Avalon:
It's probably a good safety scale. I'm crazy. I do all the things all the time. And I'm really into sleep temperature. Sleep temperature can be really important for falling asleep, staying asleep, all the things. And I cannot sleep if I am not cool. So that's why I use the cooling mattress, which has been a game changer for me. I've tried a lot of different blankets to stay cool historically. And this company reached out to me, and they are so interesting. So they're called Hilu, H-I-L-U, have you heard about them? So they make a blanket, and it's made of graphene fabric. And so this fabric actually adapts, they call it smart technology, but it actually adapts and changes your body temperature. So the way it works is that that material actually conducts and transfers heat. And I hope I'm understanding it correctly. But basically what it sounds like is the fabric itself, that material, likes to live at a place of around 64 to 68 degrees, which is the perfect temperature for sleep. And basically whatever it touches, it makes what it's touching become that temperature. I'm not explaining this very correctly, but basically if you're overheated, it will literally pull the heat from your body. So whereas most blankets, you would put them on, and regardless of your baseline state, they would make you warmer in theory, this, if you're warmer, it will pull the temperature from you. And then on the flip side, if you're too cold because they want to create this, you know, this live at this baseline temperature, they would warm you up. So regardless of what temperature you are, they regulate you to the, quote, perfect temperature for sleep. And I didn't believe it, but it actually works. It's like shocking, especially because it's like a very, very thin material. Like it is not a thick blanket and yet it, it just regulates your body temperature. And it's so, so soft. It feels so good. I'm just obsessed. I'm going to use it for every night now. So yeah, that's my new like biohacking fun thing. And I do have a code for listeners. So if they go to melanieavalon.com/hilu, that's H I L U and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon. That should give you a discount. I'm actually setting it up with them right now, but I'll just lock that down. But yeah, that's my new fun thing. I love when I find things like this that are actually changing my life. So yes, have you heard of this material before Vanessa or this magical blanket?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't. No, I've heard of different kind of cooling pads and things like that. I think the main thing that we focus on is temperature, making sure it's really cold in the room. And we both just sleep so much better with cold air at night. And I've heard these cooling pads. I always thought my husband would really sleep well on a cooling pad, but I've actually become a super hot person now. I'm so hot all the time now from all the thermogenic-effective protein. My metabolism and everything is so different. And I used to always be a cold person, which makes it hard in a relationship when one person's always cold, the other person's always hot. And now we're both really warm all the time, so it makes it a lot easier. But I think we probably could really benefit from some kind of cooling pad or something like that, especially because the kids are there, too, all the time. And they're so warm, so we have to counteract some of that as well. But yeah, it's deep sleep. Enjoy it all for me because you are getting all this amazing uninterrupted sleep, I'm guessing, every night. And you don't really appreciate it fully until you don't. It's different in this phase of our lives, for sure. So we do whatever we can to get it in because it is so important.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, first of all, yeah, the cooling mattress, also a game changer. And you mentioned, so I use the Oohler. You mentioned, you know, having your partner and now you guys are both similar sleep temperatures. Oh, which same here. Like I eat all the protein before bed. I eat right before bed. So I eat those pounds and pounds of protein literally. I think last night I ate, oh gosh, I think maybe I ate like five pounds of protein last night, maybe, or six. And then I went to bed and it was so hot. I would have died without my cooling mattress, but the Oohler, they actually make a two sleeper one so you can change the temperature on either side. So if you have a partner and you guys are, even though I know you said you guys are similar now, that can be really great for people. Like I can't recommend that enough. And then this blanket, it's so amazing. It's like you put it on and I just feel it like pulling the heat from my body. It's incredible. And I'm very, very proud of my sleep because I historically identified as an insomniac and really, really struggled to sleep. And now I'm like pretty good. And my aura ring reports back pretty good. And I basically all the things that I do really work. I just don't think I'm like, some people are just like great sleepers. Like they just go to sleep and stay asleep and wake up. And that's never been me. But if I do all the things, I can get by and give myself like a B plus, I guess. So anything else new with you?

Vanessa Spina:
I recorded an amazing podcast with this PhD scientist who got his PhD in autophagy and we talked, we had the most amazing conversation. I think it's one of my all-time favorite episodes ever of the Altamont protein podcast. And I got the episode back yesterday, which is the day that it goes out on Monday. And my microphone was not plugged in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
So I almost started crying. I didn't I wanted to cry but I instead pivoted quickly to what I could do And I was like, I'm just gonna rerecord my parts because his audio sounded great So like this will be really easy and I was like super fired up. So I rerecorded all of my parts and Then I thought it would be very simple process, you know, cuz it's back and forth you talk I talk like they you know It's like relatively straightforward, but it ended up being very complex for my editor To do because you know, he doesn't understand, you know, a lot of the terms we were talking about You know, so it's not that he can't it's just he's not familiar with you know, these different terms, especially when you get really Really in-depth on you know, some of the pathways and stuff which we were super going this deep dive You know very complex stuff and so he put out the episode like around midnight and I was waiting and waiting for it So episodes release and I'm listening back to it in bed. I've got both kids sleeping next to me and I'm like gets about the half an hour mark and this is a 90-minute episode and Whatever. I said was not matching up to whatever he said. I was like, no, no, no, no Oh, no, and we thought we had like I knew he was struggling already But I had already sort of you know Addressed it with him and corrected some things and he said he thought everything was matching up He double-checked it so I get out of bed Download the episode and I'm sitting here in the office just like cutting and pasting Two in the morning Damien starts crying. So I go get him He's on me and I'm sitting here like just cutting and pasting all this stuff and even for me I was like having a hard time piecing together, you know, which parts are would anyway finally got it out and I'm so happy. I re-recorded my audio because the audio was on my Mac book and it just sounds so Tinny, you know and it hurts my ears Like I really really it just it was such a beautiful episode such an important one for me And I'm so happy that we got it, you know fully sorted out I think there's like like there's one part of the episode that was lost forever It's like I'm not gonna get it back I just have to let go and move on because probably nobody will notice anyway, but so now I need that's why You know, we started recording today. I was like, you hear me because you know, right? I swear I double-checked it, but it must have gotten, you know knocked or something But yeah, it's one of those things like when you I know you recently interviewed, you know Dr. Gregor and you had to rerecord and it's like in our line of work, you know Those are like there's a few things that can go really wrong It's like you're not recording or your mic isn't plugged in and yeah But thankfully we were able to salvage it and I'm so happy with the episode now, but I learned so much From talking to him. I was mentioning it in the last episode. It was such a great conversation on, you know, what exactly Triggers autophagy just some really cool cool stuff and I was also I also tagged you This past week this amazing new study came out or paper came out, which is an international consensus on fasting terminology And when I saw this it was like the clouds parted it like hallelujah you know was playing my head and I I tagged you right away because It's such an amazing paper and it has so many Fasting experts were involved in it like Christopher Valter Longo Mark Madsen, you know, Dr. Satchin Panda. I mean, I think they had 38 Scientists in total they you know came together to form these definitions It's really really cool how they actually define them because this is one thing you and I have talked about so many times about how frustrating it is when you're reading research and You know the title of the paper is like intermittent fasting and protein or intermittent fasting and this and then you start reading It and you're like wait, this is not this is not fasting at all, you know, so they came out with some really cool definitions I can mention a few of them that are relevant to intermittent fasting if

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I would love that. I'm dying to know what they are.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So they, I think they did a really good job of it. They had 38 experts of them and they were defining fasting, which is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. Modified fasting, which is restricting energy intake to maximum 25% of energy needs. Fluid only fasting, which, you know, speaks for itself. Alternate day fasting, which also is self-explanatory. Short-term fasting is fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't actually don't know that it might not be self-explanatory for some people. So what is alternate day fasting?

Vanessa Spina:
Fasting. Fasting on alternate days of the week. So fasting one day, not fasting the next day, fasting the next day, not fasting the next day, just alternating your fasting with the days of the week. So does it happen?

Melanie Avalon:
have to be like every other day or can it be a few days?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. It's every other day. Yeah. And I'll get more into the specifics of it, but this is just sort of in the introduction. So the short-term fasting is two to three days, prolonged fasting is four or more consecutive days of fasting. And then they also defined religious fasting and intermittent fasting, which is repetitive fasting periods lasting under 48 hours. And then they also defined time restricted eating and fasting mimicking diet. So specifically when it comes to intermittent fasting, we have some really, really specific terms. So I think in the future, anyone who does a study involving fasting should be using these terms, hopefully, because they had all the top fasting scientists it seems in this paper. So with regards to continuous, they define continuous fasting regimens and they defined intermittent fasting, regimens, and then special fasting and religious fasting. So like I mentioned, the short-term fasting is fasting regimens with a duration of two to three days, prolonged fasting, also called long-term fasting is four or more consecutive days. Periodic fasting refers to any fasting that is repeated at regular intervals. So every day, every week, or every month. Then with intermittent fasting, they defined about five different terms. So intermittent energy restriction, IER, includes periods of caloric restriction, alternating with periods of ad libitum eating. So that's very similar to what this community follows. So intermittent energy restriction, you have caloric restriction and fasting, and then ad libitum eating, which means you can eat as much as you want for however long as you want in that period of, in that window of eating. And so under the IER, they have intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And then intermittent fasting refers to repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours each. IF includes fasting, includes regimens of one fasting per week, two separate or consecutive days per week, alternate day fasting, ADF, and time-restricted eating. And then time-restricted eating is where you have food intake and the consumption of caloric beverages. So they even defined the fact that your beverages have to have calories in them, are restricted to a specific period of time during the day, resulting in a daily fasting window of at least 14 hours. So that also sounds like both of those kind of apply to this community specifically. There's no explicit limit on energy intake during eating hours. So they really got specific on this. And then alternate day fasting refers to alternating a day of eating, ad libitum, and a day of water only fasting. So that's very specific. One day of water only, one day of eating as much as you want with no limitations. Alternate day modified fasting is alternating a day of eating ad libitum and a day of modified fasting. And then they talked about special fasting regimens like therapeutic fasting, which is any kind of fasting regimen that you're using as a therapy. And then they talked about the fasting mimicking diet, which is specifically a diet that is specifically composed to induce the metabolic effects of fasting while allowing for a potentially higher caloric intake, including solid foods. And it refers to a plant-based calorie-restricted diet with a maximum of approximately a thousand calories a day and lasts for three to seven days. So they're using this FMD sort of moniker for any diet like that, which is really interesting. And then they have things like intermittent dry fasting, intermittent fasting that involves abstaining from food and fluid intake during fasting hours. So super specific and I think really helpful. You know, I think there were some things I think that are worth mentioning, which is they define the difference between water only fasting, specifically where only water is consumed for a certain period of time. The term total fast or complete fast, which is a fasting regimen where no calories are consumed for a period of time. And then they defined like fasting itself as a voluntary absence of some or all foods or beverages for preventative, therapeutic, religious, cultural, other regions, other reasons, and dry fasting and modified fasting, which I mentioned, mentioned at the beginning. So we'll link it in the show notes if anyone wants to check it out. I think it was very much, you know, long overdue to have these terms, but better late than ever. And I'm so glad that I think maybe Grant Tinsley was involved in spearheading this. He was one of the experts on the panel. And it's really helpful. I think it should hopefully serve as a guide for future studies that are done on fasting. And so if you're doing something that is outside the strict terminology, then theoretically you shouldn't be able to title it as a fasting diet or, you know, I think these clarification on these terms makes a big difference.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for going through all that. That was so fascinating. Okay. So it sounds like, because one of the terminologies that I think I got would historically get the most, I guess, on the fence about what to use was intermittent fasting versus time restricted eating. Okay, wait, wait, did they call it time restricted eating or time restricted feeding?

Vanessa Spina:
Time restricted eating, and I heard another scientist recently talking about how they only use feeding for rodents now or for animals.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Wait, you heard him talking? Where does he talk? Does he go on shows?

Vanessa Spina:
This was a podcast with a different scientist who was doing a podcast with a scientist on autophagy that I just interviewed. So I was watching it in the past week and he did most of the intermittent fasting and autophagy research in humans that's come out recently. And he was saying that's, he was clarifying when they, why they don't, they don't use feeding anymore for humans. It's basically just for animals or other life forms used. And stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, and the aliens. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that is so helpful for how we talk about it going forward.

Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Sachin Panda, he, when I interviewed him, he sort of explained the difference to me between intermittent fasting and time-restricted eating. And they did, I think maybe some of the definitions around that are from him in this paper because it sounds like what he was saying to me, which is the time-restricted eating is really only like a pattern of eating where you are defining the hours, like 16, 8, 24, et cetera, which again is like what a lot of people who listen to this podcast or in this community do. And then intermittent fasting, he said, you could intermittent fast, but you could also like sort of eat. It doesn't really matter specifically with the time intervals, like it's less, less defined by the time intervals, which makes sense from the terminology, time-restricted eating versus intermittent fasting. Like he was saying, you could do intermittent fasting over a couple of days or there's no sort of strict definition around the timing of it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So basically all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting, but not all intermittent fasting is time restricted eating.

Vanessa Spina:
That's exactly what he said, much better said.

Melanie Avalon:
for the time, does it have to be actually time on the clock? Or can it be like counting hours? Like I fast for 12 hours? Or could it be like a one meal a day approach? Do you know, by chance? Well, they said,

Vanessa Spina:
said that the daily fasting window had to be at least 14 hours. So I don't know if that helps. They don't really mention like clock time, but you have to be fasting doing at least 14 hours for it to be time-restricted eating. But it's really interesting. Dr. Sesh and Panda told me when we had our conversation on the podcast that the reason that they did the eight-hour eating window became so popular around the world was because that's how they did the study. And the reason that they did eight hours is because the student that he had running the labs for him had to be home for dinner with his girlfriend at a certain period of time, and also because of like there were rules around how long students could be in the lab. So you couldn't like overwork them, etc. And so they ended up doing eight hours because that was when he had to go home to have dinner with his girlfriend and based on the rules there. And then it became this whole like 16-8 thing became so big, but it actually just was because of that sort of fun fact.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. That kid. Who knew? I wonder if he realizes what he created. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
He must know because Dr. Kanda talks about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that is so cool. I would have loved to have just seen the experience of spearheading that discussion and, you know, and talking to all the different researchers. And I wonder what was the most intensely debated one.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I think the way that they did it actually was through surveys.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm not sure if they had an open forum, but it says they had five online surveys. Oh, and then they had a live online conference with the 38 experts and 25 of them completed all five surveys. And then they use that to generate the consensus on the terms as well as the live open forum. Yeah. So that, yeah, would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
agree with all of the terms, mostly.

Vanessa Spina:
For the most part, the only thing that I think is still troublesome is, you know, just in the summary, it says that fasting is the voluntary abstinence from some or all foods or foods and beverages. To me, it should be all foods and beverages. Why is it some or all?

Melanie Avalon:
So when you first read that, I thought that, but then when you read all the definitions, I was like, oh, it makes sense because some of them are not like, you know, the fasting mimicking diet or the therapeutic fasting. So I think it's like allowing, it's this huge umbrella that's allowing for all the different layers and shades of restriction.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so nice. But if it was me, I would have not allowed those in there. Because to me, that's part of what creates confusion, even though there will be less confusion. In my opinion, fasting should just strictly be the voluntary abstinence of all food or beverages and then add a part about time or period of time, as opposed to some or all. And some or all foods and beverages, or foods and beverages. Because then, to me, fasting mimicking diet, I know it has a lot of great science behind it. It's not fasting to me. And it's just like when we were discussing the research with Dr. Paula Arciero, his approach, where he was doing this protein pacing, to me, again, was not fasting. It was eating. It was caloric restriction. And I think fasting mimicking should be under the umbrella of caloric restriction. And so should that approach the protein pacing. With Dr. Paul Arciero, I love his work. But to me, that's caloric restriction. And it's not fasting. But that's my opinion.

Melanie Avalon:
So what would, because I just love this conversation. So what would you call? So somebody who is quote, juice fasting, would you just propose using a different word there? Yeah, they're juicing. Juicing. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't get it because the word fasting to me is absence of and then you're putting food in front of it like fat fasting. No, you're just eating fat. You're not abstaining from eating fat. So I think that's where it's, I think again, these terms, especially that word get fasting gets used in all these wrong ways because it's trendy and it gets more clicks and it gets more attention, et cetera, saying fat fasting or fasting mimicking diet gets way more attention than saying like just eating a tiny bit of food. Like no one really wants that. Just eating fat, no one wants to do that, but fat fasting, I mean, I don't know, that's just my opinion. What do you think of these terms?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so well that's two good examples. So fat fasting, like we were talking about where people basically eat just fat, that actually makes no sense because saying fat fasting makes it sound like you are fasting from fat. I would take it the other way even though it means people are just eating fat. I can see how the word fasting could mean fasting from and then it doesn't necessarily have to be all food. That's why I'm sort of okay with the umbrella definition. And then with fasting mimicking, I don't have a problem with that because it doesn't say it's fasting, it says it's fasting mimicking. I do agree with you that it actually would be a lot cleaner if we could have fasting be just complete abstinence and then have different other words like juicing and I would keep fasting mimicking because that would make sense because it's mimicking fasting, like the effects of fasting. Yeah, I do think it would be cleaner. I can also see why at this point, I guess there's so many different words that they want to be more lenient with the main word.

Vanessa Spina:
It's when I saw it, I was very excited when I read what it actually was. I was a bit less excited, but still happy that it's out there and I'm interviewing the, I think the lead author on this, see when a couple of weeks, I think, so I will have to ask him for August 14th. Yeah, in two weeks, exactly. Well, so I'll have to ask him about, about some of these things and I'll have to challenge him a bit on, but I get it, you know, they're trying to be inclusive, but, you know, I think sometimes being inclusive comes at a cost and some of these, these things are just getting, they're getting slipped in there with the fasting because it gets more attention than if they called it what it actually is, which is a very low calorie diet. Like that has so much, I think negative connotation to it or low energy diet, you know, that's what some of these protocols are. But when you call it fasting, it's like, Ooh, it doesn't sound so bad now. Right.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, actually pointing out that piece of the puzzle, I definitely agree that we probably should go stricter because like you said, there are so I mean, there's so many studies where they do that where they they call it fasting, and then they're eating things and it just is so it's just very, what's the word misleading, very misleading.

Vanessa Spina:
it is. What I do like about the paper is that they talked about a lot of the mechanisms behind fasting, you know, why it's sort of having or being implicated in influencing aging, extending lifespan, you know, how, you know, they did a pretty good summary of the biochemical pathways of how, you know, it modulates different signaling pathways. I like a lot of aspects of it, like for the most part. So I'm pretty happy that they came out with this. So let's hope that there's more consensus now in the research on these terms. And I think it's a good sign also that this is being put out there now because, you know, fasting is as popular as ever. So it's a good time for it.

Melanie Avalon:
What's the article called again and what journal was it in?

Vanessa Spina:
So, it was published in Cell Metabolism and just now, as of I think five days ago, so July 25th, and it's called International Consensus on Fasting Terminology. Awesome. I just sent you the link.

Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. Thank you. We'll put a link to it in the show notes, which will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. And so the head researcher that you're interviewing him, did you already have him booked and then you read the article?

Vanessa Spina:
booked him on the podcast like two weeks ago. And then I think it was last week, he just published this on Instagram. So pretty neat. Yeah, it's so cool. Yeah. And guess who I just booked yesterday? Who? Dr. Luke Van Loon. Oh, the protein guy. Yes. The one who did that amazing episode of Peter Atiyah. And I have been talking to his colleague and they together did that paper on the hundred grams of protein, having no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis. So now I have to prepare like heck for these interviews. You know, it's like, okay, I finally got them booked. Now comes the hard work, you know, because one of them is in October. And I'm like, I'm glad because it gives me time. Like this is something I'm going to be doing all like all my weekends till then are going to be preparing for this, you know, because I've got regular the other interviews during the week. So yeah, but I'm really excited.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Congrats. That's amazing. That interview was so fascinating. It was.

Vanessa Spina:
It really, really was. Yeah, so he's done, I think, more protein research than maybe even Dr. Don Lehman or similar amounts. Yeah, really exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait for that. Let me know how that goes. Yeah, he was awesome. That interview, I just, it took me forever to listen to because there was just so much. Every sentence he said I had to like think about.

Vanessa Spina:
I still think about how he talked about when you look at the little droplets of fat in the muscle and how the mitochondria have little backpacks of fat droplets.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, thank you. That was that was great. That was much needed years and years we needed that. Yes. So awesome. Okay. Should we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Would you like to read the first question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, our first question is from Patti Connors and the subject is how long? I'm sure it's different for everyone, but how long does it generally take for your body to adjust to intermittent fasting?

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Patty, thank you so much for your question. So interestingly, this was one of these questions that I thought was going to be so easy to find studies just answering it. And it was not easy for me at all. I don't know what your experience was, Vanessa, but I just couldn't find studies talking about this. What I did find, which I decided was the route to go for me, was just look at studies, looking at intermittent fasting, and see what they reported for the participants' experience of that. So when did their hunger go away, the adherence? Because I think a really good sign, because there's a question here of by adapting or adjusting, you know, what do you mean by that? And for me, that's basically when you're not hungry anymore, and when you have energy while fasting. So I tried to look at studies that talked about when participants no longer had hunger while adjusting to a fasting regimen. And now every time I say fasting, I'm like, am I using the right word? So for example, there was a 2010 study called Dietary and Physical Activity Adaptations to Alternate Day Modified Fasting Implications for Weight Loss. That was an eight-week study in obese individuals. And they found that they were hungry for the first week, but then they were less hungry the second week. So it sounds like by the second week, they were making some sort of adaptations here. And then interestingly, they were low in satisfaction the first four weeks. So the first month, they felt a little bit not satisfied. But then that started increasing after four weeks. So it sounds like for them, you know, they started adapting after a week. And then they started making even more adaptations probably after four weeks. Interestingly, it said that their perception of fullness remained low throughout the entire trial. Another study. So this was four weeks of 16-8 time-restricted feeding, although we should call it time-restricted eating, as we have learned. That was in healthy adults, 16 healthy adults on their normal diet. And I liked this one because this one felt very real life. Like it's normal people on their normal diet doing 16-8, which is a very common approach that we talk about. And the actual type of students, it was mostly grad students and people in health care. And they were looking at their stress levels. So it was highly stressed individuals. And they actually found that, well, overall, this is a side note, but they found that the fasting approach, the 16-8 approach was actually really good for decreasing their acute stress and their hunger. And it was week two when hunger started going down and it continued to go down over time. So that was a similar finding to the first study where it seems like week two is when people were really adapting on the hunger front. That's just two studies, but very similar findings. And then historically, just when I've done research on this, and I remember I actually talked about this in my book, What Went Wine. I was looking at adherence to intermittent fasting. And in general, the adherence levels seem to be a lot better and like perceptions of fullness and well, I know the other one said that fullness was low, but in general, it seems that people often have more satisfaction and adherence and satiety on fasting compared to typical, quote, calorie restriction approaches. But just looking at those two, looking at my own personal experience, and also what I hear from a lot of listeners and people in the audience, it seems that after the first week is when you start making adjustments, at least on the hunger front. And then as you continue, it seems like further adaptations continue, including at the month mark, the one month mark and ongoing. Do you have thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I love everything that you shared. I think that was so smart to look at. I was more so thinking and looking at the timeline on metabolic switching.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, which I think is a huge part of the question as well.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it is and I guess it would be more, I was thinking about that and I was also reflecting back on my conversation with Cara Collier at NutriSense and how she was talking about some of the signs that people are starting to get into insulin resistance because I think that obviously being able to undergo the metabolic switch, which is really well-defined in the scientific research, is your body is using up glucose and glycogen and that usually takes around 12 hours to deplete in the liver and that's usually when the body makes a fuel switch to predominantly using fatty acids and ketones. And so if you were doing an 18 hour fast, for example, then you would be fasting for 12 hours on your stored glucose and glycogen and then you make the metabolic switch and you'd be fasting for six hours using your fatty acids and ketones. So reflecting back on my conversation with Cara, I think it sort of depends on what your background is and what your activity levels are because that's going to determine how quickly you deplete the glycogen in your liver anyway, in your muscles. It's sort of a different compartment. So you could deplete that just from doing some exercise, but you won't actually deplete your muscle glycogen unless you do exercise. It's only your liver glycogen that will get depleted, which is really interesting. So your tissues, your body will predominantly be using fatty acids and ketones after 12 hours. So if you feel pretty good after 12 hours and you are making that metabolic switch and you're able to fast beyond 12 hours. And according to the paper we just talked about, you hit a minimum of 14 hours, then you are officially intermittent fasting or doing time restricted eating. Then it's a pretty good sign if you can make it 14 hours is basically what I'm saying, because then you are making the metabolic switch and you are now in fat burning mode predominantly. So if you're able to do that pretty easily, then it's probably going to happen quite quickly for you. Whereas if you're struggling to make that metabolic switch and you're finding yourself not able to go very long without food, it probably will take more time to adapt. So I think that's going to have to do with your physiological status in terms of how insulin sensitive versus insulin resistant you are and how metabolically flexible you are, which I'm now learning about the metabolic flexibility really comes in a big way from activity levels. So how active you are, I think is going to be one of the biggest levers or switches. What's the word I'm looking for? Dials to turn when it comes to being able to make that transition smoothly and do it faster, if that makes sense. So the more metabolically fit you are, the more metabolically sensitive you are, the more active you are, you're probably going to make that switch faster. Whereas if you have a bit more metabolic healing to do, it's probably going to take longer if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And I'm so glad that works so well, because I feel like we covered the two aspects of it, which is like perfect. I was hoping, I was like, I hope Vanessa has like the specifics about the, what you just said. What was the first time you did fasting? Do you remember fasting? No, I can't even use the word. Every time I use the word, I'm like, am I using the definition? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
by abstaining from food or partly abstaining from food.

Melanie Avalon:
When was the first time you completely abstained from food and intentionally completely abstained from food for a period of time?

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm going back to my Ori Hofelmecker days when I read Ori, who we still need to have on this show, our origin story. I'm going back to when I read an article about him, then I read his book, and I decided to try the warrior diet. And I'm pretty sure I loved it pretty quickly. And I felt good doing it. However, I believe I had been doing keto. And I had been doing a little bit of like Maria Emmerich approach at the time, which was more around adding in fat and making the transition. So lowering carbs and adding fat. And Ori's approach was like, don't eat until have one meal a day, you know, at the end of the day. And, you know, he was like, have all your carbs last or something like that. I'm trying to remember back. Unfortunately, I don't really clearly remember if it was that hard, but I don't think it was. But I think it was because I was starting to already get into that metabolic switching and making that, you know, bioenergetic switch from the glucose to ketone metabolism. And I think that that's something that I've spoken about in the past that definitely helps. They really go well together. You know, if you are looking to get into more fasting, lowering your carbon take can definitely help because you're going to be lowering that stored glycogen. And then you're going to help your body be able to burn fat more excessively, more, more efficiently. And so it can help when making the transition. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was really similar because I was also doing the warrior diet. I think, so I remember, I think Ori actually allows for like light snacking during the day on, I didn't do that, but he allows it on things like lettuce. I distinctly remember like reading that you could munch on like lettuce and stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
fasting mimicking or protein pacing.

Melanie Avalon:
I was so similar to you in that I was already low carb. I was doing Atkins. And so I think that really helped with the transition. But I will always remember probably my first day because it was, I was so intentional about it. And it was like a thing. And I thought it was going to be so hard and it wasn't.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I remember you said something about how you were on set or something and so it was easy because you stayed busy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yeah, I was on my friend's film set and and normally on film sets, there's craft services, which is like the snack area. And normally I would always just like snack the whole time. So this time I, I just drank the teas the whole time. And I remember, yeah, I remember thinking, this is going to be so hard. And it was doable. And I thought I was doing some it's so interesting, because I thought it was like this huge mountain to climb. And now the fact that I've done it almost every single day for over a decade, it's so, so, so interesting how your paradigm can shift. So yeah, I thought I was going to do it for a week and then I never stopped. That was, that was that story.

Vanessa Spina:
It's actually amazing that you've been doing it for that long without changing it up. Like, I change it up all the time. I'm constantly doing different experiments. Yesterday, I tried doing three meals a day. Whoa. Yeah, I was trying carbs and I tested oatmeal, which I haven't had in like 10 years because I've been reading to Luca Goldilocks and the three bears. Oh, have you been craving oatmeal? He was like, why are they, he's like, what's porridge? Why are they eating porridge? So I was like, I'll make you some porridge. So I made a porridge. And then I was like, oh, maybe I should test some oatmeal and put some protein powder in it because I've been experimenting with having a small meal with carbs in it before I work out. And I'm loving it. I'm able to get a whole other set done. I'm enjoying my workouts way more. And yeah, I've been sort of talking about this on my podcast a bit, how I've been doing this. But so I was like, let me test oatmeal because I've heard this is something that spikes your blood sugar, you know, as much or more than like white rice or white bread or whatever. And of the day on Sunday, it was my lowest post meal response.

Melanie Avalon:
lowest blood sugar response.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. After the meal, like we had a lunch that day of duck and I had like sauerkraut or pickled cabbage, and I had a much bigger spike from that. And then I had like yogurt and protein powder and strawberries later, and I had a much bigger response, maybe, you know, because of the insulin sensitivity in the morning, but I did a test of it again this morning. And same thing. It was like even smaller blip than on Sunday. So I was expecting to have this crazy high spike. And I think it's just because of my resistance training, partly, but oatmeal does not spike my blood sugar at all, like even less than strawberries. It's crazy. And after all that, Luca had like two bites and he didn't like it. So.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny.

Vanessa Spina:
I do tend to stick with the same things for certain periods of time but I love experimenting so I'm always changing things up and I'm trying this eating before I work out and lately my workouts have been in the morning so I've been having a breakfast meal and then sometimes I'll have like a lunch and a dinner just the last few days and yeah it's super different than what I usually do although I'm sure there's one of these fasting terms that I could fall under because I'm still I'm still fasting for at least 14 hours so technically it's still

Melanie Avalon:
It's still, in terms of fasting. No, no, no. It's still time restricted. Time restricted eating. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Well, it says that intermittent fasting is repetitive fasting periods lasting up to 48 hours.

Melanie Avalon:
It'd be both. It'd be because all time restricted eating is intermittent fasting. So you automatically get two labels.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Yeah. So that's still, I'm still, I'm still fasting with my three meals a day.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so the entirety of that window is what to what, the three meals?

Vanessa Spina:
So today, for example, let's see, I had my first meal. I can look at my CGM. I had the first meal at 10 and then I had my last meal right before we started recording, which was seven. So is that nine hours?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah. And how much protein do you get in that window?

Vanessa Spina:
So I can tell you exactly because I've been tracking everything right now because I'm I've been really fascinated with tracking And seeing what i'm doing because it is a little bit different than I thought it was I'm actually eating way more than I thought I was like I started Tracking because i've been doing some podcasts about my daily routine And I didn't realize my calories were so high like there's a few days last week where they were like 2500 calories I had no idea that I was eating that many calories, but I guess i've been breastfeeding for a while So but my protein is like crazy high like it's even higher than I thought it was and I thought it was pretty high so on sunday It was 176 grams and that was like a small day for me. So most days it's like 220 to 250

Melanie Avalon:
Pounds of protein.

Vanessa Spina:
grams of protein in terms in terms of like not grams of the food weight, but the protein in the food The grams of protein in the food because I know that's confusing sometimes especially if you're in Europe because everything here is grams So like when you go eat, they'll be like your steak is 200 grams But the protein in that obviously is different. But yeah most days I'm getting around 220 grams of protein and some days even higher and I had no idea it was that high like I knew it was high So like the other day it was 225 and then like my carbs have been around 75 to 100 because I'm testing all kinds of stuff now, but I'm having so much fun Experimenting with all this different stuff and all this is just to come back Well, I am still intermittent fasting technically, but it's it's really interesting So I haven't had three meals a day probably since before or a huffle maker. So that was like, you know, it's been a long time. Yeah Yeah, I've always done the two days two meals a day felt like You know, I there's no way I could eat more than that. But if you eat smaller meals like if you just have For example some oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder in it. That's like 200 calories So, you know, that's a nice for me pre-workout meal And then I kind of have like the rest of the meal after working out So it's almost like I'm splitting up that first meal onto two

Melanie Avalon:
It's really nice to hear because, you know, we get so many questions. We actually had one and the potential lineup, but we're not getting to it. We get a lot of questions about people feeling like they can't fit in enough protein within, you know, certain eating window. And it's hard for me to speak to it from my perspective, because from my perspective, like I said, I literally will eat, you know, like five pounds of meat in one sitting, so I'm not a good example because most people are not doing that. So people who have a longer window, it's nice to hear that you, you know, you successfully can have three meals with protein in nine hours and it sounds comfortable for you, right? You're not, you don't feel like you're, or are you trying to get it in?

Vanessa Spina:
It's very comfortable. I think it's actually way easier to get in the amount of protein that I want to. I don't think I need to eat this much protein, but I enjoy it. And, you know, there's no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis as I've learned. And I'm in the years, you know, when, like, now is the time you want to build as much muscle as possible while you can. So I'm really trying to push, you know, the protein and the resistance training while I can grow muscle still. So yeah, I think it's, I'm finding I'm enjoying it. It's, but I definitely am doing it on the days that I'm resistant training because it's a pre-workout meal. So if I were to go back, like on a day that I am not, like, I think was like, was it yesterday? Yeah. Monday. Yesterday I took the kids out all day to a playground with a friend and I didn't get home until three and I fasted the whole day. I didn't have my resistance training workout. And then I had, I did OMAD. So, and there wasn't any even thought around it. It was just like, that's what happened because I got up, you know, took coffee to go and basically, you know, didn't get home until later. And then it got home, started making dinner and we ate at five. So it was like, I didn't need to have that before because I wasn't doing resistance training that day. So I think that's kind of fun to, to like, just be able to adapt to whatever your day is on days like that. I don't want to be eating multiple meals. You know, I want to just have one meal, probably maybe two, but because I'm trying to push myself in the gym to make bigger gains, that's really what I'm optimizing for right now. I'm finding that the pre-workout meal is really helping and I'm still getting the mitochondrial biogenesis because it's really the exercise that's pushing that as well as the metabolic flexibility. I thought it was the facet exercise that was doing that. And now I'm learning that it's the exercise itself. So I may as well fuel myself a bit before so that I can enjoy the workout more, get stronger and put on more muscle. So that's, that's sort of why I've been playing around with that. But again, I really admire that you have been practicing the same form for so long.

Melanie Avalon:
really the only thing that changes is the the macro breakdown. So like I've talked about a ton, you know, I basically either do high carb with that protein, or not even high fat, but I'll add fat and not have any carbs. So but it's always massive amounts of protein. I just love protein. I find it so delicious and so satiating and so amazing. It really is. One last question. Exercising in the fasted versus the fed state, does that change your, I guess just for me, I don't like the idea now of working out in the fed state. It just feels, it feels heavy in my body. Does it feel heavy at all?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so I was talking to this recent guest, Dr. Chad Kursik, about this because, you know, I was doing the facet workouts for two reasons, because I thought I was getting more mitochondrial biogenesis, which I've just learned because of Christy Storastruch's new study that I wasn't, it's the exercise that's doing the mitochondrial biogenesis, not the fasting. And so there's no, that's sort of like, that I was saying to Dr. Kursik, it didn't really matter to me, anyway, because I don't like feeling full when I'm working out. But then I realized I don't have to have a huge meal, just something small. So I started with doing just yogurt with protein powder and some strawberries. And it's a small enough meal for me that I don't feel it. Like in the sense that I'm like, oh, I'm full or like I'm bloated or, you know, if I were to sit down and have like an OMAD feast and then go work out, you know, that would not be the same situation. I don't think I would be able to work out, but a small meal, you know, I think, and I was just listening to Dr. Stacy Sims, who I'm interviewing soon. And she was on Huberman. And she was talking about this other scientist who's a woman who did research showing that having some protein before the workout has some amino acids circulating signals the body that there's fuel on board. And that's really good for women. So I'm learning more about some of the benefits of doing that. But to answer your question, it's such a small meal. And so she was saying like, she even does just sometimes like she'll make a coffee the night before with protein powder and just have that, you know, as a pre-workout. And so yeah, it doesn't bother me because it's just a small amount, you know, but that small amount does replenish the glycogen. I thought I still had enough from the night before. But Dr. Kirksik was talking about how it just refills your glycogen stores so you can push way harder. And that's what I had been noticing is I was like, smiling while I was working out. Like I was like, this is so much fun. And I'm, wow, I really feel like I can push more, I'm actually getting stronger. And that's really, you know, the sign that your VO two max is improving the sign that you are gaining strength, etc. hypertrophy, you can see, but all the other things, you know, your fitness level, your metabolic flexibility, you can tell that if you are getting stronger and faster, and you're able to do more. And so I'm finding that that is enabling me to push, push harder. And I don't feel like sluggish or, you know, in any way compromised from for the workout.

Melanie Avalon:
It's such a different experience for me to imagine. So it's really nice to hear about. And it's really exciting because it means there's so many different approaches that people can do when it comes to their fasting and their exercise and getting their protein in, and it's all doable.

Vanessa Spina:
I feel like we are in the midst of a big, you know, shift and change just, you know, in the health space. So many more people are talking about protein resistance training, especially women, and it's just a really exciting time to be in this space. And you can get it done with intermittent fasting. One of the things that was the most exciting that I was talking about with Dr. Escobar, who was the topology scientist, is we were talking about how mTOR and AMPK, I used to think of them as pathways that were completely counter-regulatory and separate from each other. So if you want, you know, the autophagy, you have to be AMPK, you have to be in the AMPK sort of pathway of breaking down catabolism, that's going to initiate autophagy, but he talked about how mTOR actually initiates autophagy. It's much more complex and not as black and white, you know, as we thought of it. So you can actually be in the mTOR, working out, eating protein, doing the resistance training, endurance training, whichever exercise you want, and be getting the autophagy. It doesn't have to be just in the breakdown mode to get the autophagy. So you kind of can get the best of both worlds. I think that's really exciting, but yeah, just the last thing I wanted to share.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's crazy and super counterintuitive. So, huh, awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. That was so incredible. So helpful. Keep me updated. Let me know when you move to formulas per day.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I'm going to be like stepping on stage with my six meal. A little six meal per day or? Yes, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Well, for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. We are contemplating having guests on the show, so if you would like to submit to have your story featured on the show, like actually be interviewed by us, you can go to ifpodcast.com/submit and there is a submission form there. And then like I said, the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode386. There will be a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about, including I guess we should give a link for Nutrisense that people would like to get their own continuous glucose monitor for that they can go to I think it's nutrisense.com and you can use the coupon code I have podcast. Yeah, you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. So anything from you Vanessa before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and I am really looking forward to our next episode. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Okay. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Sep 01

Episode 385: Metabolic Flexibility, Energy Toxicity, Autophagy, Carbs Vs. Fats, Metabolic Science, Hypoglycemia, Glucose Uptake, TOFI, Insulin Resistance, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 385 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and choose from filet mignons, ribeyes, or NY strips, FREE in every box for a year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and choose from filet mignons, ribeyes, or NY strips, FREE in every box for a year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Listener Q&A: Sara - How to safely get back into it when you are hypoglycemic?

NUTRISENSE: Get $30 Off A CGM At Nutrisense.Io/Ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 385 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Aug 25

Episode 384: High Sugar Fruit, Artificial Colors & Flavors, Increased Anxiety, Mental Health, BDNF, Ketones, GABA Dominance, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #50 - Dave Rabin (ApolloNeuro)

Welcome to Episode 384 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BETTERHELP: Visit betterhelp.com/ifpodcast today to get 10% off your first month!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

APOLLO NEURO: For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST.

Listener Q&A: Anon - Anxiety after starting IF?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 384 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 384 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. Vanessa, I saw you had your birthday party for Luke.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, two days ago on Sunday. And it was epic. It turned out so perfectly. And Luca just had the best day ever. We were at this really fun sort of like a somewhere cross between a playroom and an amusement park. And it just opened this brand new one in the city. And we took all of Luca's little friends and all of their parents who are our friends to this place for the afternoon. And it was super fun. I mean, the kids just had a blast. And by the end of it, we were all all the parents, we were all going down this huge slide landing in this giant ball pit. All together, we were all just like sitting in the ball pit by the end of the day towards early evening. And then just like going on the trampolines and everything. And it was like, everyone kind of cleared out and it was just us. It was really kind of magical. But yeah, thanks for asking. I had so much fun making the cake. My back actually hurts. I spent the entire day I should have split it up, you know, done it a few days ahead, but it didn't work out that way. So I spent the entire day Saturday into the night and then early morning Sunday also doing it. And my back is like, I thought it would be back to normal by now. But it still hurts.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so many things here to dissect. One, I saw on the pictures, it looks so colorful and so magical. I was like, what is this? This venue? Like, what is this?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, the amusement park, the playroom. Yeah, it's really, really cool, really cool concept. So colorful, like you said.

Melanie Avalon:
It reminds me of you mentioned that the ball pit Scott and I on our recent mind blown podcast episode, we did things that vanished and we talked about we talked about like all the different things that are no longer around that kind of just people stopped using and one of them is ball pits like people here don't really at least well, I actually maybe I don't know the answer to that because I don't go on fast food anymore. But I don't I feel like those are not a thing anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
In my world with kids, they're very much a thing, actually, and actually, we have a giant ball pit that I just set up. I have to send you a picture of it because it's absolutely epic. Wait, I'm going to go take a picture right now.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, I have to see, I have to see this. I'm like so excited right now. You have a ball pit.

Vanessa Spina:
so I set it up in the last couple weeks and okay I just send it to you it's like a candy land like pool

Melanie Avalon:
You know what's crazy? I was going to ask if the balls were gonna be like some school color combination. That's the best color combination.

Vanessa Spina:
Isn't it so pretty? I custom picked out all these colors.

Melanie Avalon:
I know you did. These balls are what I anticipated they were going to look like. Like I saw the colors in my head and it was this. It was literally this.

Vanessa Spina:
You will have to put a picture in the Facebook group or the on Instagram or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Are those slides on the side or no? Or that's just accent decoration.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, there's a slide that both Luca and Damien go on and then on the side, there's like these rims that you put the balls in and they slide around and then there's like

Melanie Avalon:
of the balls slide down.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's a candy. I mean, there's this candy cane like bridge or altar. And then there's also on the front, there's like these three candy loops that you throw the balls through. So I became obsessed with making a ball pit. At first I just wanted to get a bigger pool for outside when it, cause it's so hot. And then I was like, wait, I could just make a giant ball pit and it's just perfect for their ages right now. The only problem with it is the balls are everywhere. My, my pizza cousin was like, oh my God, that looks so fun. But what about the balls? And I was like, they're everywhere. Like every day I was spending 10 to 15 minutes just putting them back in there, but it's worth it. It's worth it. Cause it's so much fun. Anyway, all pits are very much still a thing in the world of little ones and toddlers.

Melanie Avalon:
I wonder if they are here in America or if safety rules have... I'm going to find this out.

Vanessa Spina:
I'll have to ask my mom friends at home, but so when we were in Denver last summer, we went to a couple places that had ball pits. Yeah, I think it might just be that you're removed from like, they might've all been moved to like kid zones, but yeah, I want to know now because they're huge here, like a lot of my friends have ball pits, a lot of parents do it just with these kiddie pools at home and a lot of like playrooms, like all the playrooms that we go to have them, but this one that we did, Luca's birthday, it has the like, I think the biggest one in Europe. It's like, it's like a sea of balls. It's just so many ball pits, so many balls in the ball pit. And like for 20 adults, we were all like sitting in this ball pit together with the kids and babies and everything. And it was just hilarious. It was so funny and so much fun. Yeah, I wish you could have come.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know, cause when I was little, I would go in the ball pit, I was a little bit concerned. I don't know, I was a little bit suspicious. I wonder if I would get like PTSD, like, as like a child.

Vanessa Spina:
You just weren't a fan.

Melanie Avalon:
I just you can't see what's in there, you know, I used to think there'd be snakes because I think my mom told me a story when I was little about how they found some snake in a ball pit and I just.

Vanessa Spina:
No, that'll do it

Melanie Avalon:
That'll do it. Oh, speaking of, I don't know if you saw my story, but the other day, speaking of wildlife, did you see this on Instagram? I was in the garage and there was an opossum and it charged at me. It charged at my car, which was terrifying. Even being in the car, I've never seen one of those in real life and it was just like walking, doing his thing and then it literally charged. I'll send you the video. I was like, oh my goodness, it's unhinged. That is crazy. Yeah, I talked to chat GPT. It said they don't get rabies because their body temperature is too low. Fun fact. And it said that it was probably confused. I was like, oh, that's really sad. I know the wildlife.

Vanessa Spina:
I bet. Poor animals. The world is so scary and dangerous for them now, although it wasn't that safe when the dinosaurs were around either.

Melanie Avalon:
That's true. You know, that's true. That's another thing we talked about that has disappeared. We actually didn't say that ball pits have disappeared, although I do think they have. We said that bugs on windshields, that might just be a thing here in the US, like the bug population is really down. So like when you drive now, you don't really get bugs splattered on your windshield. You'll get like one. And it used to be like the whole windshield.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my gosh, we had so many when we went to the lake last month. I always feel horrible. We had like a hundred or something.

Melanie Avalon:
In Europe? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like you guys still have the bugs because you're not spraying everything with glyphosate. Yeah. It's a thing.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really interesting, because we don't have a lot of like mosquitoes and things, you know, in the summer, because I can't stand them. But I did notice, yeah, on the road trip that yeah, a windshield was covered.

Melanie Avalon:
So the bugs are still acts. Yeah, you guys. So it's like Europe's holding out for us. Ball pits and bugs over here. We're all sanitized and yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe that's why the possum attacked you.

Melanie Avalon:
probably. I know we've talked about this before on the podcast, but just for listeners who missed it, our last conversation, and I think it's really relevant. How do you handle, so like the cake you made, how do you handle the world of typically less than healthy food while raising your child?

Vanessa Spina:
I've been making this cake for the last three years for Luca's first, second, now third birthday and I always make the same one. I just do variations with it, but it's basically a gluten-free, sugar-free cake. So I make the cake itself with almond flour and coconut flour and I used erythritol and stevia for the sweeteners. So if we were back home, last summer I think I used alulose because I remember we were talking and we had talked about it. So I tried alulose last summer when I made it in Denver, but this year we're back in Europe and it's not approved here yet. So I made it with erythritol and stevia because those are the two that are approved here and I can use. And I just put the erythritol in the blender and it turns it into like confectioners. So I made the cakes, I made vanilla cakes and chocolate cakes and then slice them in half. And then I made the buttercream frosting just with the butter and the erythritol and stevia in that like powdered form. And I used some natural food coloring to make it blue because it was choo-choo themed. But it turned out this beautiful like teal blue because you know butter is not white, it's cream colored. So it made it actually into this beautiful teal. You can see it on my Instagram at ketogenic girl if you want to see the picture of it. And I put the recipe on my website because so many people wanted to try it out. And then I put those sugar-free sprinkles. My sister-in-law brought them from Denver. I used them last summer, we talked about them. And they're sweetened I think with stevia and the coloring is using natural food. So the yellow, they use turmeric, they use like beet juice for the pink, you know they use just food like natural food, actual food to make the sprinkles. So I had rainbow sprinkles around the bottom. You know, I serve that for Luca for us as a family and all of his friends and our friends, their parents ate it and loved it. And it was the same last summer. Like everyone was like, oh, I'm on flower grade, you know, like what's in it? And then I have a couple of people asked about the sweeteners and they were like erythritol, is that like xylitol? I was like, yeah, it's similar. And everyone ate it, thought it was great. So you know, I always say like, it's a cake that no one will really know is healthy because it tastes, it tastes just like a normal cake to me, especially because I haven't had sugar in a long time. I don't know what it tastes like to someone who eats sugar regularly and then has that. But Luca still hasn't had sugar. I don't know how long we can pull that off for, but I'm just trying to do it as long as possible. He didn't have any kind of reaction to the cake. I mean, like when he's had grapes before and become like possessed, Kara, I just had Kara Collier on the podcast and we were talking about grapes because she was like, they're the worst, especially now because they're so sweet and they have these cotton candy grapes now.

Melanie Avalon:
Cotton candy grapes. I was going to say, have you had cotton candy?

Vanessa Spina:
No, but Craig Emmerich told me about them.

Melanie Avalon:
They taste just like cotton candy.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my God. I kind of just want to taste it just for, just to be like, cause I love, I used to love cotton candy when I was a kid, but that does not sound like anything that anyone should be consuming as like a fruit and vegetable. Like that's just so, that's not even natural anymore. But anyway, that's how we navigate it. And I thought about getting or making a regular cake for everyone else, but the last three years I've just been making this one and everyone enjoys it just fine. So, you know, that's kind of how we go about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it looks really beautiful.

Vanessa Spina:
Tiffany blue

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh yeah, it is. Kind of looks like a gender reveal cake with the blue and the pink. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
That's true. That's true.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so cute. I love it.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon:
You should totally try a cotton candy grape.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, they definitely would not be allowed in Europe, but next time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah, I wonder if they're like super GMO.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't know how they meet them. Like, I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
It was like, is it even a fruit anymore?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's just a grape. So to clarify about like, it's literally still just fruit. I don't know how they made it. I'm assuming they bread it to get that flavor.

Vanessa Spina:
Is that something that you would eat because you eat like more high carb or?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't eat grapes, they are too sweet for me and they're not the best for my digestion, but back when I used to eat like a wider range of fruit, even higher carb than I eat now, I would occasionally have some cotton candy grapes, but they were so sweet tasting. What I'm curious about is I don't know if actually they're that, if they're sweeter sugar wise or they just taste sweeter because of the flavors and the aromas, be curious. That's another fun fact that I learned researching for the Mind Blown podcast plug again. Did you know? So you know like the banana flavor of although you're in Europe, but you remember like the banana flavor of things in the US? Yeah. So that flavor is based on the original or a more original version of the banana, which is now extinct. So when you taste artificially flavored banana things and you're like, oh, this tastes like over the top or like too banana-y or not like the real banana, you're actually tasting more of what the original banana tasted like. Isn't that interesting?

Vanessa Spina:
You know, that is because I don't like that flavor. I find it way too strong and last summer I was sampling all these different yogurts because I wanted to find like, what's my favorite fat free high protein yogurt. And there was one I tried that was banana flavor and actually ordered it by accident because I don't like the flavored ones. It's like, okay, I have this, let me try it. And one spoonful. And I was like, like, I just, it had that artificial banana flavor to me. And I was like, could they make this taste more artificial? So it's really ironic.

Melanie Avalon:
I know that that was my exact thought, I was like that's so ironic.

Vanessa Spina:
It just seems like we're trying to banana too hard, you know? It's like, relax. We don't need this much banana.

Melanie Avalon:
But apparently bananas in the past were, like, more banana-y.

Vanessa Spina:
weird. That's a really odd, er, what's the word for it? Esoteric piece of information.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I know. Oh my gosh, how long can we talk about this?

Vanessa Spina:
Probably ours. I know, I know.

Melanie Avalon:
Don't tempt me. One other thing to talk about, this relates a little bit to a question we have coming up, but I'm so excited because we have one of my favorite products ever, ever in the biohacking product world, sponsoring the show, Apollo Neuro. Have you tried an Apollo, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I have one.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. They did send you one. Yeah. So for listeners and friends, I have used this every single day of my life for, wow, maybe four or five years now. I really credit it with being a key player and helping me, not so much my insomnia, like waking up in the middle of the night, but falling asleep at night. It got rid of that like issue and stress and fear I had about falling asleep. But basically what it is, is it's a wrist device that you put on your wrist and it uses gentle sound vibrations to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your rest mode in your body. It's really gentle, like you barely feel it. And it has multiple different modes, ones for like to wind down. It has a social mode for when you're talking to people, it has a recovery mode as a sleep mode. And basically, okay, I'm all about like meditation and breath work and all of these different tactics to reduce stress. Like, you know, use all of them, you do you find what works. I love this one, because you don't have to do anything. You literally just put it on your wrist, turn it on. And it does all the work for you. It's basically a bottom up approach to reducing stress. And the founder created it originally for people with PTSD. And they have a lot of really interesting research on that, you know, really addressing people's PTSD with it. But for me, it's a game changer for sleep and stress. I've heard that from so many listeners as well, because they've been talking about it for years and years and years. And so that's why I'm so excited that they're sponsoring the show. And they have a 15% discount for you guys. So if you go to ifpodcast.com/Apollo, that's A-P-O-L-L-O. You can use the promo code IF podcast and that will get you 50% off. Yeah, so I really, really can't recommend it enough. It also makes an incredible gift. I've given it to so many people. I've had the founder Dave Rabin on my show on the biohacking podcast, and I'm going to bring him on again. And I got to meet him in real life at the biohacking conference, which was really exciting. It's always really nice to, you know, meet and connect with these people in real life. So yeah, that is Apollo. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we jump into some questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm excited to get into these, actually, as usual.

Melanie Avalon:
I am too. I'm really excited. I found a lot of really good information for some of these. So would you like to read the first question?

Vanessa Spina:
So our first question is, Hey ladies, I hope that y 'all are both doing well. I just started IF in June after discovering your podcast and I have lost about 20 to 22 pounds. Woo-hoo. I am a 41 year old female that is six feet tall. I weighed 190, 190 pounds when I started and I would like to lose 15 more pounds that I weigh around 155. I started with a 16 eight window, but really didn't see weight loss until around seven to eight weeks when I changed my window gradually to one meal a day. I still have an eight hour window about two to three days a week. I fast clean. However, I have not yet given up fast food or pizza and I still have a Coke every now and then. Oh, and lots of dessert. So here is one of my questions to either of y 'all know people are here of people in your Facebook groups that have increased anxiety after starting IF like maybe it increases/purges and then gets better. My anxiety is crazy right now. I am definitely under a lot of stress, but stress has never affected me like this before. This brings me to my second question, Melanie, did you ever start meditating with the two 15 minute sessions a day by Emily Fletcher? I bought the book. You recommended stress less accomplish more and was all about it until she warns you about the increase in anxiety/depression, et cetera, at first while your body is purging. Just wondering if you had these side effects.

Melanie Avalon:
the good work girls. Thank you. Awesome. Well, so this listener did not provide her name, and I realized, does she say she's a woman? I guess it could be a man, in any case, for this listener. So thank you so much for submitting this. And I have so many thoughts. First of all, I would be curious if you started the, like the two questions, if they're happening at the same time. Like, I'm going to assume it's a woman because we get just so many women questions, because she says that, you know, she's asking about the increased anxiety from fasting, and also from this meditation, which she says she bought the book. So I'm wondering, did you start this at the same time? And maybe it is actually related to the Emily Fletcher piece, which I can come back to, as far as anxiety and fasting. So I can tell you anecdotally answers, I can tell you answers just from what I've seen in the community, and then what I found in the research. So for me, I did not experience any increased anxiety with fasting, I experienced the opposite, it really, really helped my mood. If anything, it reduced my anxiety. I can see how, if you have a tendency towards anxiety already, I could see how being in the fasted state with the increased neurotransmitters and the catecholamines, and things like that, that could maybe intensify those feelings. So maybe if you are already anxious, I could see how, you know, the feeling might feel more intense. That said, it's not been my experience and if anything, I feel like it would be the opposite, but I can see how that would be basically a mechanism of action. I found a few reviews on anxiety and IF. So there was a 2021 review. It was called Fasting Interventions for Stress, Anxiety, and Depressive Symptoms, a Systemic Review and Meta Analysis, and it was published in the journal Nutrients. And so they looked at 11 studies which covered 1 ,436 participants. They found that overall their conclusion was that fasting groups had lower anxiety and lower depression as well as lower body mass without any increased fatigue associated with that. The specifics of it, so five of the studies were Ramadan studies. In those studies, they found that fasting improved anxiety and depression. And then in the other studies, which were a collection of a lot of different approaches to fasting, so it included a calorie restricted versions. It included a lot of them were calorie restricted versions of fasting, which is interesting. One was something where they looked at eight weeks of one day per week fasting, for example. So in those studies, they didn't find any difference in anxiety or depression when they looked at all of them, but when they just looked at the randomized control trials, which are the most stringent analysis basically of the fasting protocol, they did find that the fasting led to lower anxiety and depression. So that's what that review found. And what was interesting is they were saying that basically they were looking at already, quote, healthy populations. So they weren't looking at people with already previously diagnosed anxiety or depression. And they actually hypothesized the opposite of what I just said, which was that if they saw this beneficial effect in a healthy population, it probably would help even more in people who had baseline symptoms. So that was promising. And then there was a 2023 study. It was a review as well, a systemic review. And it was called does intermittent fasting impact mental disorders? And it was published in critical reviews in food science and nutrition. And so they looked at a total of 14 studies, which covered 562 individuals. And they saw a moderate and positive effect on depression, and they didn't see any effects on anxiety. So basically, it didn't make it worse, but it didn't make it better. And then the last review I found was 2024. And it was called effect of time-restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health and older adults, a systemic review. It looked at eight studies, and it didn't talk about anxiety specifically, but it did talk about the findings on brain health, cognitive function, mental health, and wellness in general. And it found a lot of positive beneficial effects. Basically, intermittent fasting is just really great for the brain. And we've talked about that before in prior podcasts. That's because of how it affects glucose metabolism in the brain, inflammation in the brain, genes in the brain, oxidative stress in the brain, neuroplasticity, which is the formation of new brain cells, BDMF, which is this basically incredible miracle grow type substance in the brain that just really supports brain function. So all of that to say, my opinion and perspective is intermittent fasting is so healthy for the brain. I feel like anything that we're doing that really helps boost brain health, our health in general, our gut microbiome as well, basically a holistic approach to health that fasting can do, really should have a carryover effect with anxiety and mood and things like that. So to answer your question, I haven't seen a lot of people saying that they have increased anxiety. I would look more at other lifestyle factors in your life and how can you address them? You know, maybe cleaning up the food choices if that's something that you're open to, because we know that these processed foods that we eat today can have a major detrimental effect on our mental health and wellness. I would be curious again about the meditation. To answer your question about Emily Fletcher, her program is called Stress Less Accomplished More. And it's like this listener was saying, it's two 15 minute sessions that you do a day. I did do it regularly for, I think I went through the whole program. I feel like I learned a lot from it. It definitely taught me one of the primary skills of meditation. Not to say I'm like an expert at it or anything, but even in that short amount of time, I really retained that mental programming of noticing my thoughts. And you know, what is me versus what is the voice in my head? It was really helpful for that. Interestingly, and I'm just kind of like pausing and smiling right now, the reason I didn't continue it was because of how anxious it made me in the morning, which is ironic because it's like supposed to be helping anxiety. But it was because of I honestly, what I should do with it is do it at a different time, because she wants you to do it right when you wake up. And that is literally when I'm the most like productive and prime. I basically I got anxious about not answering emails and things like that. Like I think if I had done it later in the day, that would have been more beneficial. Like I think I could have fit it into my lifestyle better. And I understand how overwhelmingly ironic this is, because it's supposed to help you with those thoughts telling you that you don't need to check the emails. So there's a lot of irony here. But I do highly recommend the program. I did learn a lot from it. Like I said, skills that I maintain today as well. Another resource I will give you and listeners that I am so excited about. Another sponsor, new sponsor on the show we have now is Better Help. And I actually sought them out to sponsor this show because I know that I knew that they sponsored, we actually had them as a sponsor way back in the past, like when we first launched this show years and years and years ago. But I re sought them out because I hear them on a lot of podcasts. And I really, I cannot communicate enough how passionately I feel about therapy. I just, I'm, I can't communicate how important it is to me. I've been seeing a therapist since 2014. And I originally, I originally went in because I had, I was struggling with all of the fears surrounding my digestion, my digestive issues. So I went in for an acute issue because I think a lot of people think that you need to go to a therapist only if you have something specific to work on, which it's great for that. That's why I went in. I kept seeing a therapist and I have not seen, I have not stopped seeing a therapist since for a decade because of how valuable I think it is for your self care, your anxiety, your health and wellbeing, having somebody that you can go to once a week or however often you go and just be able to share everything that's happening in your life with this person and get it reflected back at you and break it down and find solutions. It's just one of the most helpful things for me. I just can't express enough how important it is. And I know there can be barriers to it because you have to drive somewhere, you have to find a therapist that you like. That's a big thing. If you go try to find a therapist and you have a bad quote experience in the interview, which I have had multiple of, don't give up. It's like dating. You have to find somebody who's the right fit for you. So that's why I'm obsessed with BetterHelp. What they do is they are an online platform that connects you with therapists. You actually take a quiz online, a questionnaire, and then they match you and it's all online, it's affordable, and you can switch therapists anytime you like. I do recommend once you find a therapist that you stay with somebody and build a relationship with them, but that's just so amazing because you can really work to find somebody who's really, really great for you. Listeners can get 10% off their first month. You just go to BetterHelp. So that's betterhelp.com/ifpodcast. So when it comes to stress and anxiety, to recap, I'm not so sure the fasting is, I doubt that it's creating that. I doubt that it's in and of itself creating it. I can see how it may be exacerbating it. Maybe that said, all of the literature that I've seen kind of says the opposite. And if you are dealing with stress and anxiety, definitely consider an Apollo neuro like I was talking about earlier and or checking out BetterHelp. So, okay, Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So the research that I did, first of all, I found the same systematic review and meta analysis, and I thought it was really interesting, the 2021 review, because one of the things that stood out was that they talked about how both rodent and human studies have shown that daily intermittent fasting can switch you from a glucose metabolism to a ketone metabolism, and that induces anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidative and stress resistance effects that I think are responsible for a lot of that lowered anxiety that a lot of people experience. And that was actually from a paper that was done by Dr. Mark Madsen and Rafael de Cabo. I talked to Dr. Madsen about this when I got to interview him, and he talked a lot about how intermittent fasting showed in their research to raise BDNF, brain drive neurotrophic factor, which we talked about, I know we've talked about on other podcast episodes, but it's really interesting because when you are in ketosis, you do tend to be more GABA dominant. And people actually, GABA is sort of a, well, it's associated with slower neural activity. So people tend to get in a different sort of brainwave state where it's less anxious kind of hyperactive thoughts and more calm, it's more of a calm sort of disposition that your brain is in. And Dr. Dom D 'Agostino talked about how a lot of people who are in ketosis tend to love coffee because you kind of get so GABA dominant, you get so kind of mellow that it's almost like too much, you almost get too mellow. But that is if you are in ketosis, and a lot of people do make that switch, you know, the metabolic switch when they are doing intermittent fasting, especially OMAD. What was really interesting too is you mentioned this, some of the studies in the med analysis were done on Ramadan fasting. And that is very similar to OMAD, right? Because they fast from dawn until dusk, and then often feast after sunset. So very similar to an OMAD pattern. So it's interesting that because it sounds like that's, you know, well, what a lot of listeners, a lot of people in this community do, although there's lots of different approaches. So I do think that although, you know, the research definitely says that it is usually and commonly can be an effective intervention for lowering stress and anxiety. That doesn't mean that's going to be the case for everyone. I do like that you pointed out the actual nature of the diet and the composition because I do think there could be a connection there. For example, some of those foods that you mentioned eating, like lots of pizza, lots of fast food, lots of maybe very sugary foods if you're eating a lot of dessert could potentially be making it harder for you to get into that ketosis, that fasting ketosis the next day, which could be connected to why you're not experiencing that sort of GABA dominant, that GABA energetic, you know, feeling or dominant state. So that's just one, you know, hypothetical on what could be happening. There could be a connection with the types of food you're eating. And I know that a lot of people who do a mad they, they don't really need to change the composition of their diet or their macros. But I do think there is definitely a connection, you know, with diet and mental health and mental stages, as you mentioned, I love that you brought up all those resources. So I think there's definitely lots of different things to try to test out. You know, you could try doing more whole foods approach, maybe less processed foods, because, you know, processed foods are designed to be addictive and leave you unsatisfied. They're not designed for optimal nutrition. So I'm wondering if maybe there could be potentially a nutrient deficiency or something like that this that could be happening there. I don't want to make any, you know, presuppositions of Johnny conclusions about how you're eating because maybe you're getting all your nutrient needs met. But I'm just saying that could be a risk of eating a really hyper processed diet, is you might have some nutritional gaps. Maybe you're supplementing really well, so you don't have that issue. But just trying to kind of brainstorm and talk about different sort of causes. I do think that, you know, if you are experiencing anxiety, Like Melanie, I doubt that it's the intermittent fasting itself, but potentially it could be. And if it is something that doesn't resolve for you, then I would say maybe it's not the best approach for you because if you are maybe one of those people who, for them, intermittent fasting is not an effective intervention for stress, you know, it doesn't cause some hormesis, it doesn't give you the benefits that many people feel doing intermittent fasting where they feel more calm, then it may be that it's just contraindicated for you. It could be something related to any aspect of your lifestyle or, you know, just perhaps, you know, for some people, it just doesn't have that effect. There's no one at fault for that. It's just the way that it is. People experience things differently. So I would say there's a few things you could try. Some great resources that Melanie pointed out, you know, potentially trying to do a more whole foods approach and just see how you feel and, you know, take notes and maybe journal. But long term, if you're still feeling anxious, you know, it could just be that this lifestyle is just not one that is optimal for you potentially. So lots of things to consider there, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Okay. So many things for the piece about, you know, whether or not it's appropriate. I do want to emphasize, because I definitely agree. I guess what I want to emphasize is that there are so many different approaches to intermittent fasting. So if somebody, you know, feels like intermittent fasting isn't right for them, it may be they're just doing too extreme of a version of it. Like, there are, there's definitely different layers in the rainbow of fasting. And so, you know, just because if you find a certain type of fasting too extreme, like maybe you're trying one meal a day, and that's too much for you. That doesn't mean now you're destined to eat 24 seven. And similarly, even if you're not fasting, that also doesn't mean you're just eating constantly like we could, like we could, we could still make beneficial changes, I think, to the timing of our eating where we're still eating breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but not, you know, constantly snacking. I would really, really look at the other food choices, especially it can also be a thing where sometimes for fasting, it makes people quote react more strongly to food. And it's not because they're actually reacting more strongly. It's just because the fasting has allowed their body, like their digestive system to clean out and for them to become more aware of their reactions to food. So it could be that, you know, foods that seemingly didn't bother you before, now you're realizing their effects because you're having them after this fasted period. I think that happens a lot with people. Thank you for talking about the ketones and the, and the GABA and all of that. I, I love hearing about that. I, I know for me with fasting, one of my favorite personal beneficial effects of it is the stabilizing effect it has on my mood. Like honestly, honestly, before fasting, when I was eating throughout the day, it was like blood sugar swings and my mood was just, I mean, well, again, maybe it's because this is what, this is what I wonder. Cause I'm saying maybe it's because I was like a teenager or whatever, but maybe not. Maybe if I'd been eating, not necessarily fasting when I was younger, but maybe if I'd been making healthier food choices, I just wonder the effect that would have had on my mental health and wellness growing up that I mean, that's that I'm very much content with my, the way I grew up and everything. I mean, it wasn't like a, you know, I wasn't really crazy and I don't have a lot of regrets about how I acted or anything like that. I just know that once I started fasting, I really saw this beautiful mood stabilization that I, I'm honestly grateful for every time I think about it. Like I'm grateful for it right now. Vanessa, when you started fasting, did you experience any changes in mood?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, it always makes me feel great. If it didn't, then I wouldn't do it, to be honest, because to me, you know, although there are a lot of additional benefits that you can get from intermittent fasting, it really is just a great way of doing caloric restriction, you know, in terms of the outcomes that you get from it. And so if I didn't feel good doing it, I would just do regular caloric restriction, you know what I mean? Like it just, I would just eat whenever I wanted to. And right now I'm super flexible with my approach because I'm breastfeeding. I'm in different phases. I'm optimizing for different outcomes. And I think you should always be making sure that what you're doing is optimizing for whichever outcome you're currently, is currently sort of your goal. But yeah, I mean, to answer your question, I always felt really great. For me, it improved my mood, lowered my stress because it enables me to get more done in my day. And for me, action is always sort of the cure to any kind of stressful feelings. Usually if I feel stressed, it's because I feel overwhelmed. Like I'm, there's too many things I want to get done. And so it gives me so much time and energy back to be able to get things done. But I also find like if I do two meals a day and I'm doing 60 and eight, that it's similar. I just have a lot more time freed up. Whereas when I used to eat sort of around the clock, you know, it just took so much time and energy to be constantly thinking about meals, doing meal prep. I mean, it's similar to people who do like bodybuilding competitions and stuff. Like so much energy goes into that, but that's literally your job. But when you're, when it's not your job, then you shouldn't be spending all day, like working on it, you know what I mean? Like, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no completely. I cannot agree more. And oh and speaking of the ketones, I tagged you on this on Instagram.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I'm so I like I saw it and it was like during all of the birthday prep and then I I was like gonna go back and it was gone.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll post it again. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
I was like I was like it was literally I was I just had five minutes of downtime and I was like oh my gosh I think Melanie posted something about the tone device and it said 26 and I was like did I dream that no I think it really happens like

Melanie Avalon:
Let me look up the picture. I think it was a 26 or 28. Yeah, I was so excited. I love that. And the picture I posted was blurry. And I'll post it again. It's because I was so not expecting it. And I was so frantic. I was like, God, I take a picture. And it was like going away.

Vanessa Spina:
But then if you turn it back on and you press the power button twice, it'll show it again.

Melanie Avalon:
What oh my goodness, okay

Vanessa Spina:
So it just won't show the context. You know how it says like fat burning zone or like burning. It won't show that message, but there's a 64 spot memory. So it saves like your last 64.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and then you can look through them?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, unfortunately it doesn't have, there's no space for like time and date. Unfortunately it doesn't have the time and date, but it does save the last 64 readings.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and you're right, it was 26. Tell me again, I turn it on and then I...

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, you turn on the power button, or if it's already on at any time, whether it's counting down or showing the results, you just press it twice and it goes into memory mode and it shows you. And then if you keep pressing it, it'll go back through all the memories and then you press it twice again and it turns off.

Melanie Avalon:
Very cool. Okay. Yeah. And interestingly, I'm pretty sure that was a day after a day that I had done low carb the night before. I'm pretty sure. And for listeners, Vanessa's tone device, it actually measures the level of ketones in your breath. So you can see how many ketones you're burning. And if, you know, if you're in a ketogenic state, a fat burning state, so it's very cool. Now I have my system of how to do it. So if I have to make sure that I'm like really still, I have to make sure my lips are really all around it, and then I'm breathing the same way. And then I get the numbers. But if I'm like slightly off with some of that, it'll say zero ketones. But I'm not sure if that's like user error.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it could be. Some people also don't blow vigorously enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It might be something about how I'm blowing into it, I think. So, because I get, I get scared still about blowing too much because of what it says about not taking a breath, but so I can blow vigorously. Yes. Okay, I'm going to try that because I think I approach it like really hesitantly because I'm like, don't, don't breathe. Okay, so blow strongly into it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, cool.

Vanessa Spina:
until the end of the b-

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yes. Okay. That's why I'm saying that's why I think sometimes it's sometimes it doesn't beep When I'm blowing

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, if it doesn't beep, usually it's not registering ketones. So the beep means that it's registering some level of ketones.

Melanie Avalon:
So maybe, okay, so I'm gonna try this to report back. Maybe I'm not blowing hard enough. But it's only on times that it doesn't do the beep that it does the zero. But then if I can get the beep, I'll like get a number. So that's why I'm like, I feel like I'm doing something not correct here. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
Right and then what did you do with the day that it showed twenty six.

Melanie Avalon:
I did it again and then it said zero and it wouldn't be that's why I was like something

Vanessa Spina:
Usually if you do two readings right after the other, the second one either shows lower or no ketones because you've just blown most of them out in your breath. So usually like I wrote in the manual, like take, wait five minutes, at least you take, take the next reading. But if you wait like half an hour, it'll be more accurate. But there's only a certain amount of acetone, like in your lungs. This is how the engineers explain it to me. And so when you breathe out, then you've like just expelled it all. So then usually if you do a reading right after that, it'll show like half as much or next to nothing, which sometimes is zero.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so even though we're breathing constantly, it's the fact that you are purposely like breathing a long stream that kind of like goes through some of your breath ketones.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, that's, I mean, yeah, that's pretty much how they explain it to me.

Melanie Avalon:
So the engineers you worked with, were they health keto people?

Vanessa Spina:
Not really. They're more just like scientists who study gases, breath gases. That's so cool. Like CO2 and methane and acetone.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that is so cool. Okay, so how can people get this device?

Vanessa Spina:
That's so sweet of you to ask. You can check out the tone device at ketogenicgirl.com if you're interested and you can read your ketones and see what rate of fat burning you're in. And I just launched the brand new second generation of the tone device, which is the one that Melanie has. And she has it in black and rose gold, which I made sure to get to her because I know she loves rose gold like I do.

Melanie Avalon:
Rose gold is the best. Oh my goodness, awesome. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for this show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. You can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuff we like. And then as a reminder for those two things which really, really help mental health and wellness, you can get an Apollo neuro. If you go to ifpodcast.com/Apollo and use the coupon code ifpodcast, that will get you 15% off. And then you can get 10% off betterhelp. If you go to betterhelp.com, that's H-E-L-P/ifpodcast. All right, I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so. I had so much fun. This is such a great episode and I loved today's topic as always.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too! Well, have a beautiful evening and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Sounds great. Talk to you then.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Aug 18

Episode 383: Red Light Mask, Hyaluronic Acid, Ketone Breath, Diet Wars, Processed Food Addiction, Nitrates, Nitrites, Red Meat, And More!

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Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

APOLLO NEURO: For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST.

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get salmon, chicken breast or steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Listener Q&A: Erin - [I've been] tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. I haven’t heard you discuss this phenomenon... Any thoughts?

Listener Q&A: Andrea - Is organic “nitrate free” deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 383 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 383 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I am great. How are you? I'm good. I'm torn because I just thought of a few different things I want to tell you, and I'm torn about which to tell you. I don't want to have none of them all. Okay, rapid fire, rapid fire, thing one. I'm a little bit concerned about all the packages that are coming soon because last week, okay, backtracking. What type of water do you drink?

Vanessa Spina:
me up so much. I drink typically spring water. I buy it in glass bottles. It's carbonated but we also have a filter that we put on our water system in our house here. So it's basically like filtered water from the water reservoir which is quite good in Prague and then I carbonate that myself. That's what I'm drinking right now. How about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that's incredible. I would have a water system, but I'm in an apartment. So I only drink the glass bottled water. It's like what I drink. I drink still spring water. There's like a brand here in the US called Mountain Valley. And then Whole Foods has a brand of I think Italian water, regardless. That's what I drink. I drink the water bottles and glass. And then last week, all the Whole Foods didn't have any water. It was like going away. Like every time I went, there was like less water bottles and glass and then less and glass. And I was like, what is happening? So and Whole Foods carries a their own store brand line that's from Europe as well, which is amazing. And then last week, I noticed that because I go every day and I get water bottles and glass, it's kind of like part of my resistance training. Like you carry around your kids, I go get like 24 glass water bottles. Like they're my kids. And I noticed they were like going away. Like there was like less and less and less. And I was like, what is happening? Where's the water going? And I was having like a panic moment. I was having flashbacks to COVID of like stock up on the toilet paper, but it was like the glass water bottles. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I kind of like panic ordered. I like sought out the company, this Mountain Valley company. And I realized I could order direct from them. And I was like, I cannot run out of water. So I ordered so much water. Like so much. I don't even know how much water I ordered that's coming. We're talking like maybe 100 glass bottles. And the thing is now Whole Foods has their water back. So I think tomorrow and I kind of like panics. I found one Whole Foods that had lots of water. So I went there and I just took their entire inventory. So I'm already like stocked up on water now. And now tomorrow, I think I have 100 bottles showing up. So there's a lot of water coming.

Vanessa Spina:
I think you're sorted if there's any kind of emergency then.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'm like, I'm good. I know, but I'm like, it's coming. It's coming. And I just, I just heard that I had a package to the door and I was like, is that the water? Didn't get a great workout for sure. Oh, I know. I know. So water. So if you're ever thirsty, you know where to go. Have you had that panic moment where like you think something's running out?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but for me, it's more like I see sales like when when there's a sale on something, I buy like everything. We have like this assortment of different things like right now, my protein pudding I have this chocolate protein pudding that I love and it went on sale like a month ago. So I bought like everything. It was like half price. So I wanted so many of them and they're not cheap. So my fridge, we have like this double door fridge and we've had so many people visiting us in the past six weeks and they're all like what is with you in the puddings because like they open and there's like a hundred puddings and I'm like, I'm not obsessed with them. They just were on sale. And they've been taking up so much room in our fridge that I'm like, I'm really excited because I'm starting to get through them like we're going to have more space for other things in the fridge. But yeah, I I will buy whenever there's a sale, I like stock up on things. So and yeah, if something is getting discontinued or you know, I definitely stockpile things but I also find it really helpful. I started doing something the last few years, which is whenever I'm buying like makeup or anything for like the beauty or face anything for the bathroom like toiletries, I guess I always buy three of them at a time and I just keep them in the bathroom. So I have like this stockpile. So whenever I run out of my foundation or mascara or lipstick, I just open the drawer and there's a box there and they're all like stacked nicely and it's really nice because you know, whenever you're running low on something, I'm like, I have to order it and just I try to buy threes of everything, threes or fours of everything.

Melanie Avalon:
That's a smart system. And I just realized I do that system with, I do that with everything makeup mostly and everything food, honestly, like have the, have the backup. I don't like to be, I don't like to be on like, uh, we only got one, you know, one layer of this.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and it makes me feel really abundant.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Yeah, it does. I like it because you are. Yeah. I'm actually about to start reading. Um, I had a call yesterday, question, cause I have a lot of like calls with brands and stuff. And do you ever get on a call and you kind of realize halfway through the call that maybe it was more of an important call than you thought? Cause I don't really like I'm meeting with so many people all the time. I don't really prep the calls that much. Like I don't really look them up beforehand. I just jump on the call and like, cause I figured they'll, they'll tell me about themselves. Like when I talked to them. So like yesterday I was having a call and then he started talking about like working with the United nations and like Deepak Chopra. And I was like, Oh, I feel like I should have done some research here. Point being, I'm going to start reading Deepak's new book called abundance. Have you heard of it?

Vanessa Spina:
I love him. I love his voice and listening to his audiobooks.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, apparently this one is about financial abundance and I'm really excited to read it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. He just has the most soothing voice ever. Do you ever listen to him on audio? I actually

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that I actually have and my sister's obsessed with him. So I'm excited to read read this book

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I love him and I love his soothing voice. It's just, yeah, he's amazing. How old?

Melanie Avalon:
What is he, I, he seems like, he seems timeless.

Vanessa Spina:
He must be in his 60s or something now, because I've been listening to him since university. Oh, nice.

Melanie Avalon:
It's very, very nice.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, that sounds like a great book.

Melanie Avalon:
I will let you know and I think I'll save my other story. My other story has to do with something crazy that happened with chat GPT. I got in another argument with it and it's, it's crazy what it said to me. I'm still recovering. So that's a teaser for next week. Anything new in your life?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, we've been working on the collagen, tone collagen. I'm super excited about it. I think it's launching in August. So I'm not sure when it's.

Melanie Avalon:
coming out. This comes out August 19th. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
It might be out right now. I'm not sure on the exact day, but it's supposed to be in early to mid-August, so it might be out right now, but I'm super excited about it. I'm just so excited about the research behind it. It has randomized controlled trials behind it, and I'm loving taking it every day. We added hyaluronic acid in it, which it turns out, for years, I was taking things topically that had hyaluronic acid in it, and I found out more recently through research that it's such a large molecule, you actually have to eat it. We added hyaluronic acid into it, and that has also a ton of scientific evidence behind it showing that it improves the appearance of the skin and reduces fine lines and wrinkles by 15% to 20%. I'm really excited. I've been on this skin health journey with red light, and I've been wearing my red light therapy mask, and I've been getting lots of compliments on my skin, and now I think adding this in is going to be... I'm just really excited to see what it's going to do for myself. I'm also excited for anyone who tries it, but it's so cool when there actually is research, because there are so many things that people market and sell that have no evidence behind it at all. I think, especially these days with social media and things like the social media platform with the... It's getting banned. What is it called? TikTok? Yeah, with TikTok. You see these videos. I'm not on TikTok, but people send me things, and it's like, oh my gosh, people are just making stuff up, and they can make up anything and make these claims and put it in a TikTok video, and people will believe it. You really want to find the stuff that actually has scientific backing and evidence, so you don't waste your money on things. I think it's really exciting that it has so much evidence. One of my favorite protein researchers, Dr. Jose Antonio, he has this hilarious Instagram account, and in his stories, every day he posts reels and videos like that that people make where they're trying to sell stuff, and he just debunks it in five seconds. He's like, this is a lie. This is not true. Especially there's this one testosterone supplement that all these guys are selling, saying that it turns you into this testosterone raging beast of a man, and he's just like, this is totally made up.

Melanie Avalon:
by this. Do you know a supplement it was? I'm just curious because I've been researching that recently.

Vanessa Spina:
Honga, Ali or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, do you know what the ingredient is?

Vanessa Spina:
Actually, Huberman, I think, may have promoted it incorrectly. I think Jose was telling me that. It's called Tonga Ali, and that's the marketing name, and it's all over social media. And there's these people make these videos showing this guy, who's just like this average guy, and he takes Tonga Ali or whatever, and then he turns into this muscle-bound, raging testosterone-fueled guy, and it's just not true at all. So it's crazy what you put. You can make an Instagram reel or a TikTok video or a post or whatever and just say whatever you want, and people will believe it. So you really don't want to waste your money on things and find stuff that actually has scientific evidence. And if it has randomized control trials behind it, placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled studies showing that it actually made a difference compared to placebo, that's something worth spending your money on, because things are expensive these days, but you really want to invest in yourself, invest in things that have the backing. So I'm really excited about it. That's pretty much what I've been working on. The last week's the packaging of it, which I love, which we were talking about before. We both love the packaging on our latest things. So yeah, that's pretty much mostly what I've been working on.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it so much. Could not agree more about the ingredients and you'll be proud. I, I got out your red light mask and I was like, going to use it. I was going to, like, I was like ready. And then I realized I had to charge it the first time. And so now it's charged. So maybe, okay, today, today, today's the day I'm feeling it.

Vanessa Spina:
And I want to know if you think it looks cute because I definitely think it's not a creepy looking mask and I'm proud of that because a lot of them are really creepy looking.

Melanie Avalon:
hard goal or task.

Vanessa Spina:
there was one that I was testing that was so creepy looking. And I think I was doing a call with Scott and I like put it on and he was like, whoa. I was like, all wearing this and see if I freak him out.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. Assuming your supplement is out now, your collagen, even if it's not, how can people – what's the links and the codes and all the things for everything?

Vanessa Spina:
If you go to toneprotein .com, you can sign up and you will receive the launch discount, which will be the biggest discount that we do on it. And that if you sign up at toneprotein .com, you'll be added on the list. And if it's already out, you can probably go right to MD Logic and find Tone College in there. But if you sign up on the email list, you will get that launch discount.

Melanie Avalon:
for it. Awesome. And how about the red light mask? Oh, wow. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
for asking. That's at ketogenicgirl .com. And hopefully Melanie is going to send me a photo of what she looks like in the mask. So we can see if it looks creepy or not. Let us know if she thinks it looks creepy or not, or if she thinks it looks cute.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, maybe, maybe, because I don't know. Well, I think you know this. You probably know this. So those aforementioned business calls. Most people in the world do Zoom, like they do video calls. And I don't. I just don't. I just call in. I call in. I wait for the question of, oh, we can't see you. And I'm like, no, I'm just calling in every time. And it's really awkward. Maybe I could start calling in on video with my red light mask on.

Vanessa Spina:
It would be very aligned with Melanie Avalon, biohacking goddess. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll be like, I'm sorry, I only do video calls in my red light mask.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, yeah, I need to counteract the counter.

Melanie Avalon:
interact the blue screen lighting. Yes, it would be very unbranded for you. I could have the... Okay, wait. I could have the red light mask and then I could put the blue light blocking glasses on top of that. It would be like all the things.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe it's a new tool. You could do podcasts in it too. I could.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait a minute.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm telling you, it's semi-cute. You'll have to tell me what you think, but I think it looks, I think it looks

Melanie Avalon:
People keep telling me I need to do a video. Yeah, so well now you definitely have me brainstorming about new podcasting methods.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I would love that. I think it would be very on brand to watch you and the podcast with it on because it would show your commitment to biohack.

Melanie Avalon:
whoa, whoa, whoa, I have an idea. Whoa. Because I was just saying, okay, here's my idea. Although if I pitch this idea, I can't actually do it. So should I not pitch it? I'll pitch it because I'm not going to do it. So my idea is, because I was thinking there should be like a new biohacking person who always wears a mask and nobody knows who they look like, like who they are. And I was like, I can't do that because I'm already myself. But I was like, wait, I could have an alter ego. I could like start a new

Vanessa Spina:
I think your body is too recognizable. True. Yeah. And like, you have to hide your hair like if people saw your hair and like your arms and your physique, I think would be too recognizable. So that's out for you.

Melanie Avalon:
To wear a wig? Yeah. Good.

Vanessa Spina:
and sweaters, you're sweating to detox.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh man. I could like, yeah. Okay. Well, you know, we'll table that for something there for sure.

Vanessa Spina:
I can tell you work in you know the entertainment industry and like your acting background in LA because that sounds like like some new reality show or it sounds like the premise of some like LA show or something like that like the mask the mask singer the mask podcaster or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. I'm going to think about this. But like I said, now if it happens, people will be like, she was talking about it. Okay. Shall we jump into some fasting questions? Yeah, that sounds great. All right. So to start things off, we have a question from Erin. And Erin says, Hey, ladies, thanks so much for your podcasts and all the information. I've been clean fasting and doing one meal a day since the second week of January. No loss in the scale weight yet, but I feel like I'm losing inches slowly. I'm still working on the mental aspect of fasting, trying not to think about food so much or overcompensating once my window opens. I've noticed appetite correction working when I eat whole foods, but I am still way overeating when I choose fast food or processed foods. I feel like I could just keep eating and eating, which we can comment on that. But she has another question. She says, anyway, my question has to do with tasting that metallic ketone taste in my mouth shortly after my meal. During the daytime when I'm fasting, I can taste that metallic taste and I know I'm getting into ketosis. Typically, my one meal a day is at night within a couple hours of bedtime. Surprisingly, I've noticed that when I'm lying down for bed at night, only a couple of hours after eating, I can taste ketones that sharp metallic like taste in my mouth and it lasts until I fall asleep. This also happens if I choose to open my window early and have lunch and I'll notice the taste shortly after eating lunch. When I wake up in the morning, I do not typically taste the ketones until later in the day, even though I've tasted them the previous night after my meal. It's strange to me because I eat high carb and I'd assume my body is not in ketosis shortly after a meal. I haven't heard you discuss this phenomenon, so I thought I'd reach out. Any thoughts? Thanks, Erin. And when I read this question, I was really excited to get Vanessa's thoughts on this because she's the ketone queen.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I want to know what your thoughts are on it as well. So I don't know specifically if this phenomenon has a name or what it is, but I was recently looking through this really interesting paper, which was about athletes and ketogenic diets. And one of the things that was really interesting is they found that once you get into ketosis, sometimes the ketones will stick around for a while in your bloodstream, especially if, say, you get into ketosis and then you have a mixed meal, which is not keto necessarily, then your body switches to actively handling the glucose, the fat, the protein that you've just consumed, the carbohydrate protein and fat that you've consumed. It switches to dealing with that. And so you kind of have this backup of ketones that can sometimes still be in your blood, and it doesn't get taken up by the tissues right away because you're now sequestering glucose into your liver, into your muscle. You're actively using it for energy to make ATP, and then you're doing the same with protein and fat. Your body's handling all that. And so it stops ketone production, but it doesn't right away, your tissues don't right away take up all the ketones because now you have carbs coming in, if that makes sense. So that's the only explanation that comes to mind for me. And it is interesting because I have had that metallic taste myself sometimes at different times, usually when I'm switching things up or I'm doing longer periods of fasting and I have experienced that myself. But I recently was experiencing it a couple of months ago when I started going back to doing OMAD. So I think I was getting into a deeper state of ketosis, but it would be interesting at the time that you experience that to be measuring your ketones, like measuring your breath ketones, especially if you're tasting it, measuring your breath acetone and see what's happening there. If every time you have that metallic taste, you do a measurement on your breath ketones and see what it's showing or do a measurement of your blood ketones. And then you might be able to infer what's happening there as well. But what are your thoughts, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I loved everything that you said, that was sort of my theory, so it was exciting to hear you say that that might be what would be happening because I hadn't researched this, but I was hypothesizing that, is it sort of like a dumping effect? Basically, you have these ketones, because is that what you would say, kind of, that that buildup of ketones, that it's kind of like they just get dumped into the, you know, they come out through the breath? Like the ones that were there in the ketogenic state and then they eat the high carb meal and then they switch over and then these ketones are just floating around? Is that sort of what's happening?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I guess you could call it like a dumping effect. Yeah, like I said, I don't know what the term for it exactly would be but it sounds like you know, you're going into ketosis and then you have to sort of like Backlog back up of ketones and so you're probably because breath ketones are spontaneously degraded from The form of acetoacetate. So when your body makes ketones it makes beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate Which are the two forms beta-hydroxybutyrate is the storage form of it that's circulating in your bloodstream and then it spontaneously Will degrade from acetoacetate as it's sort of being used and taken up by yourself So then once it starts getting processed then like 15 to 20 percent of it Degrades into acetone which then goes out through your lungs. So yeah, I mean, I guess you could call it a dumping effect I don't have a better term for it

Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting. I guess I experience, I don't know. I've never been one to hardcore go by the breath, like visceral experience of it. The only time I hardcore felt the ketones on my breath was honestly when I would experiment with MCT oil and then it would always be actually right after eating, from eating the MCT oil. So I was actually going to suggest what you suggested, which is I would do some measuring. I would highly suggest getting Vanessa's tone device because then you could actually measure your breath and actually literally see, you know, what's happening during this. But yeah, have you heard that from other people that they experienced this?

Vanessa Spina:
Definitely heard it over the years that you know the metallic taste when ketones are present many people you know who've been doing keto for a while if you're in tune with your body I think you you definitely can notice that because it's it's quite a specific taste you know so when you're you're experiencing it I wouldn't say it's the most like pleasant taste so most people probably notice it and if you're familiar with keto you know that it it means that it's it's like the ketones which is it's kind of neat I think because not everyone detects it so I think it's neat if you're like really in tune with your body and you can detect it yourself

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks. I feel like I was most in tune with it when I first went low carb, and this was before I even started fasting. And then as far as her part about the, I know it wasn't a question, but she was talking about appetite correction and how it works when she eats whole foods, but when she eats fast food or processed foods, she just wants to keep eating and eating and eating. And I just wanted to highlight that for a little bit because I think it really just speaks to this phenomenon where it can be really hard to experience what we call appetite correction. So where you are satiated and full with food and don't feel the need to keep eating and craving, it can be hard to get that if you're still eating processed foods and fast foods. If I think about it too much, I just get upset because I'm studying so much all the time about health and longevity and degenerative disease, and you can just look around and see the state of society. And I just think so much of it goes back to what we're eating. And I wish people's eyes could be open to this. And I think I wonder if like in the future, like way in the future, I don't know if this would ever happen, but kind of like with smoking, where for a long time the smoking industry was, it was just normal to smoke and it wasn't realized how bad of a problem that was for cancer. Now, any promotions you see for cigarettes and smoking, we all know, like we know it's like not a good thing. And I wonder if in the future there will ever come a point where people will feel that way about the processed food industry. I don't know, I guess we'll see.

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely think that's coming. And I love hearing you talk about that, because it's so fascinating. When you talk to people who are experts in processed food addiction, they always talk about how, or not all of them, but like Joan Ifland and Vera Tarmen, about how the cigarette companies, when they saw their time was coming to an end, they started buying all the food, the processed foods. And they use very similar methods in how they target children, and in their messaging and marketing, and even methods that they were doing with cigarettes with children. It's crazy to think back, because now we all know, we all laugh when we see an ad where it's like, smoking is recommended by your doctor, or whatever. We laugh at it now. And I, oh my God, I would love to live in a time when that is a reality, that people look back, and they're like, oh my gosh, doctors actually let people eat this stuff. They didn't tell them to stop eating it. And I know there's a lot of well-intentioned, well-meaning doctors who just don't focus on nutrition, just because that's just not taught, you're not taught to focus on nutrition. But there's more and more who are informed about it, who are being proactive about it, who are even coming out and saying, I gave you bad advice in the past. And I'm starting to see sort of this different view of things where just looking at all the food wars, and the camps, carbs versus fat, it seems like everyone wants to blame either fat or carb as getting people into the metabolic dysregulation that we're in today. And now I just sort of see it as, it's not really fat or carb, it's both. It's like energy toxicity, and it's mostly the processed stuff. And if you just, whole food carb and healthy whole food fats, like the fats that come in like salmon, beef, eggs, et cetera, if you just eat whole foods, it's not about carbs or fats, it's really just about overeating energy. If you just eat whole foods, you're not gonna overeat. And if you don't overeat on whole food carbs and fats, you're not gonna get issues with your fat cells becoming overloaded, and then inflammation, insulin resistance, and all of that. And it's kind of sad in a way that people are so divided with the camps, the mechanistic viewpoint of the carbohydrate insulin model. And then you have people who really just think it's like just eating fats that makes people fat. And it's like, no, it's just overeating. It's not overeating protein, we know that. But if you're overeating either macro or you're overeating both, specifically with processed foods, that's really the problem.

Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I feel so strongly about this. Like the same thing goes with you're talking about low carb versus low fat, but people will say like, oh, it's animal protein or it's the meat, you know, that's the problem. And I'm like, we've been eating animal protein for hundreds and hundreds of years. Million years, at least. What has changed here? It's all this processed food. And it makes me sad. And this is not meant to be a judgment thing at all. You were talking about the role of doctors and how there's not this realization that there is a disservice being done here with the food that we're eating. Like I get really sad when I see all these videos, like there's so many videos of like moms, you know, like making all of this like processed food, cake, snack things for like their kids and stuff. And I'm just like, don't you see that this is feeding poison into these kids and they don't have any agency. Like little kids don't decide what they want to eat. It's whatever they're given. And it makes me sad. And I know like, I mean, I was raised on processed foods and I turned out okay, but I just wish there could be a paradigm shift where people saw these foods as being a primary issue behind all of the health issues that we have today, because they're creating, you know, the metabolic condition that we're in. So we shall see.

Vanessa Spina:
I know it's hard because children have, you know, their mitochondria intact, you know, their hormones are amazing. They can like, quote unquote, get away with eating whatever, but it's like, we're now seeing no, not so much, like there are now there's early onset diabetes conditions that people wouldn't get until they were much older and children are getting them. There's really rising rates of childhood obesity. It's a real problem. It definitely is. And it's happening to people younger and younger. And then all of these chronic non-infectious diseases are happening to people earlier and earlier, younger people are getting disease, non-infectious disease that I think a lot of it is related to metabolic health. So it's a huge issue. And yeah, there's a lot of complications around it. And people like, you know, think that avoiding these foods is restrictive. You know, I mean, like, I think Dr. Vera Tarmen put it so beautifully. She said you wouldn't, if you were talking about alcohol and your kids, you wouldn't, or like cigarettes, you wouldn't think it's restrictive to tell, oh, I don't give my kids alcohol or cigarettes. Everyone's like, right. You know, but when it's like processed foods, everyone's like, oh, you're being so like restrictive. It's like, no, I see these in the same way. They're hyper addictive. They create, you know, responses in the brain that are unnatural with dopamine, units of dopamine that are way too high, that are, you know, that are so high, they create these drug-like effects and addictions. And that's why, like, Lucas never had sugar. And, you know, he's almost three and people are always like, whoa, you know, you don't give him any sugar. And I'm like, no, and he's so calm. He's such a calm child. And that's the number one thing people say about him is like, he's so calm, which you don't hear a lot about toddler. But I know there's a connection. He doesn't eat sugar. He doesn't eat any processed food. And I'm talking about the hyper-process hyperpalisable, like junk food that has been scientifically engineered to get, give you this like a bliss point, this unnatural response to food. Whereas, you know, if you eat a whole food, you know, organically grown apple, or even if it's not organic, whatever, you eat a whole food, even, you know, I know some fruit, people say the fruit's been really manipulated, but most foods in a whole food form, they don't deliver that response of dopamine units. So they can just eat it and have a normal response. They shouldn't have like a cocaine-like response to eating something. So, yeah, I feel the same way. And I really hope that day comes. I do think it is possible. I think people are becoming more and more informed. And we won't seem like extreme, like restrictive, whatever, that some people view it as the way that they probably did in the past with people who were that way about cigarettes or, you know, other things.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was thinking about it actually the other night because I was thinking about how I haven't eaten these processed foods in, you know, years. And I was thinking about if I had never tried them, then I would never know what they tasted like. And I would never, I wouldn't feel like I was, I don't feel like I'm missing out now. But I do remember that taste and how good it tasted. And I was just thinking about how if I never had them, then I wouldn't even have that relationship to that experience. Because I was thinking about like, what would it be like to be a kid raised who had never had any of these things? I mean, I know people will say that you get your taste buds changed. And they do like I literally I don't, I love the food I eat and it tastes amazing. But I still will always have the memories of what that other food tasted like it doesn't really go away, which I find really interesting even like years and years later. But like you said, it is literally engineered to get us to just keep eating it. And then like, make it seem like we're the problem, which yes, you do have the agency of what you're eating. But it's just it's very like sneaky. Everything's kind of set up to, you know, keep us eating. And then there's like a shift of a focus to Oh, it's all about exercise, you need to like exercise more.

Vanessa Spina:
This is why I think I was like not for a long time I questioned exercise and now I'm so glad that I don't and there's you know I'm really excited about the research behind it but a long time I questioned it because of that messaging. Me too!

Melanie Avalon:
me too. I mean, it's really interesting. You can see this play out because you all you have to do is look at the like I'm not me I'm not making this up and this is not a conspiracy like just look at what these really big companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola and things like that they fund health related incentives that don't involve food because they know because they know that what they're creating is not healthy and creating a lot of problems so they try to shift the focus from food being the problem so they'll sponsor like exercise incentives and like races and you know encouraging more steps and it's just kind of like a diversion like don't look here look over there so yes we shall see how things change shall we go on speaking of food shall we answer our next question

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, sounds great. So Andrea or Andrea from Facebook asked, is organic nitrate free, deli style meat safe to eat in large quantities? I know that it still has naturally occurring nitrates from salt or celery powder, which I'm pretty sure is just as bad, but I would love to hear the research on this if there is any. I wanted to do some protein spraying modified fasting and the easiest and also most delicious way to do this would be with protein shakes and deli meat, but not sure if this would totally negate the benefits.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, Andrea, Andrea, I never know how to pronounce that name. Great question. And it's a confusing question as well. So the whole nitrates, nitrates thing is a little bit confusing. Because on the one hand, we hear about all these problems. And then on the other hand, we know that, you know, fruits and vegetables, for example, are really high in nitrates. And there's apparently health benefits from them. So what's happening? What's happening is that there's nitrites and there's nitrates. And they kind of can go back and forth. They can convert into each other. And so vegetables tend to be high, especially like leafy greens can be high in these nitrates, which can convert to nitrites. Either way, these compounds ultimately in the body or wherever they may be can convert to nitrosamine and nitrosamines are the carcinogenic compound that can be created. This happens when nitrites are in the presence of iron and protein, and also has to be a certain temperature as well. So basically, it's very the environment of where the nitrites are located determines whether or not they become a nitrosamine, which is the again, the cancer causing compound. So that's why these ingredients can be a little bit problematic in the context of meat, and especially in the context of processed meat, because it's the perfect situation for that iron and that protein, and that temperature in the stomach to create these cancer causing compounds. So a lot of these different companies will have quote, nitrate, they'll call it like uncured processed meat. And what they do is they use like Andrea was saying, they use nitrates, sorry, they use nitrates from often from celery powder. And I went down the rabbit hole, like I tried to find studies on specifically nitrates from celery powder and things like that and their potential to cause nitrosamines. And I couldn't find any studies on that specifically. I tried, I tried really hard. The takeaway of it all was the mechanisms of action are all still there. So basically, even if it's nitrates from celery powder, if it's in the context of, you know, a meat meal, and you're eating it, and it's in the digestive system, and it's a certain temperature, all the potential is there to create nitrosamines. So I don't know that celery powder versions of nitrates/nitrites lets you bypass the nitrosamine formation. Something to keep in mind, though, is that a lot of the potential of this carcinogenic transformation to happen can be negated by vitamin C and phytochemicals and antioxidants in fruits and vegetables. So it's possible that eating these foods in the context of like a lot of, like I said, fruits and vegetables might reduce that potential of causing nitrosamine formation. I don't know like the celery powder that they're using to create the nitrates added. I don't know if that comes along with its own vitamin C. So maybe there's a void process meats. And we even know, because I know there's all this idea of like red meat causes cancer and all that stuff, the connections they find with cancer causing and meat, it really is. It's red meat for certain reasons, probably unrelated to what we're talking about right now, and processed meats. And I think a lot of the processed meats does go down to this nitrosamine formation that potentially happens after you're eating those foods. So as far as it negating the benefits of PSMF, so that's a whole like tangent because, well, A, so if at all possible, can you eat just real meat on PSMF? I mean, you can. So if that's possible, I would definitely go that route. If for whatever reason you have to do processed meats, I don't think you're going to negate all the effects of everything. I think you're going to know what effects you're looking for and what your starting weight is, what your goals are. But assuming you're doing a PSMF, like a, I don't know what version you're doing of it, but assuming you're doing like a short term, high protein, low calorie approach to your diet in order to lose weight or you know, for metabolic health or whatever it may be. I think the effects from that calorie restriction, I don't think they're gonna be negated from eating processed meat as the choice. I just think you could probably make better choices. And in general, for people, I would avoid processed meats. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it's a tough one. I, I really love processed meats too. So much that I actually tried to make my own ham a year or two ago. And it was a really interesting process. But I was like, I can make this myself at home without using the nitrate salts, you know, that they put in the meats, because I was like, I'm just gonna make it for myself and then I'll eat it within a few days.

Melanie Avalon:
What do you put in it to make it?

Vanessa Spina:
So, you basically like take meat and you cook it, sorry, you take meat and you like grind it up and then you put it in this container that's like a cylinder and the cylinder goes in a pot of water and it boils it and cooks it to a certain point. And during the process, a lot of people put curing salts and that's where the nitrates come in. Like they have these salts that have nitrate in it and it's usually salt, some flavoring, sugar and nitrates and that's the preservative. So if you make it yourself at home, then you don't have to put that in there because you're not keeping it for weeks and weeks and weeks, right? So I tried making it. It didn't taste as good as regular deli meats and it was just such a process that I was like I just didn't want to have anything to do with it at the end. So I totally get it. It's really hard. I tried to find the nitrate free versions like you do, Andrea, and you know, I tried to limit how much I have and not go overboard like I don't have it every day. You know, I have in the past had it two, three times a week lately. I haven't as much. I've been trying to just stick to like you were talking about, like just whole foods meats, but it is so great and so convenient sometimes. So like if I have it once a week, I don't really worry about it too much. And sometimes we, you know, like I make protein bread and put it in sandwiches. It's super easy, but I do feel better when I avoid it because I think it definitely is not the optimal way to consume protein. So I like the idea of doing the protein shakes for proteins for when I find fast day. But like Melanie was saying, you know, you could just maybe barbecue grill some chicken breast or some other lean meat or even some fish or seafood, you know, whatever you like instead of the deli meat. But I understand the convenience of it and the taste of it for sure. I recently had Dr. Anthony Chaffee on my podcast and I really liked our interview. We talked about this a little bit, but we were talking about red meat and cancer and grilling meats. So I was asking him what he thought about grilling meat. And he said that he really believes, you know, we have been cooking meat with fire for at least one point five to two million years and that we're very well adapted to that because it's something that we have co-evolved with. That's been part of our evolution. I don't know, you know, obviously nitrates are probably haven't always been present, but grilling meat, he said he's fully on board with. He said that what he does try to avoid is to not overdo the smoked meats because that's a more concentrated form of the smoke. And I I was relieved when we were talking that I was for a while I was like obsessed with smoked meats. And now most of the smoked meat I have is smoked salmon. But I was so into it. I actually got a smoker and I was smoking brisket and I just loved the flavor of it so much. And then I think we just got busy with the kids. So I stopped doing it. And I was thinking like last week, I'm like, I think I should sell the smoker because I only used it a couple of times and it's huge. Takes up a lot of space in our storage. And I don't think I'm going to do it again after that conversation with him because I don't know. He said if you have it once a month, it's probably fine. You know, the smoked meats. But he said it's probably a little bit more riskier than he doesn't worry at all about grilling because I was asking about grilling because we grill like every day right now. Summertime is great for me because Pete can take over the cooking, at least with the proteins. So it makes cooking a lot easier. Just the whole process way easier just with grilling. But I was really curious about that. So I was glad to hear what he said. And also I was relieved that I haven't been eating as much of the smoked meats as I was because if I had continued on that path, I don't know. But it sounds like when it comes to meat in terms of what the research shows, you know, there are some concerns, like you were saying, with the process forms, there's some concerns with smoked forms, but not so much with grilled meats. So maybe that's one way to still make it tasty and enjoy a proteins very modified fasting day.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah, that was really helpful. And I want to emphasize that, like, I think there are, like, there are worse things out there. And, you know, if a person has a pick between not having any meat at all and having processed meat, I mean, I just think protein is so important and the nutrients we get from meat is so important. So I don't even like answering that question. But I guess I'm saying that I don't think it's overwhelmingly horrible, but I think you could do a lot to mitigate it. And, you know, having the processed meat in the context of a lot of leafy greens and veggies can potentially help with that potential nitrosamine formation. And I hear what you're saying, Vanessa, about, you know, the ease of it. And for me with the processed meats, why I didn't like eating them was they tasted so good. I found them more addicting than like, like with normal meat, I eat it and it feels good and satiating. But with processed meat, it sometimes makes me want to keep eating more. And then the sodium load was always just like so much. Like it would make me feel like bloated. And yeah, just can't win, but you

Vanessa Spina:
Can you supplement with salt at all? I'm curious, like, with algae?

Melanie Avalon:
Just the salt? No, I don't. I eat so, I used to a little bit if I, before I ate a lot of scallops, which I think they're high in natural sodium. In the past I would if I felt like I needed it intuitively. I think I get a lot of sodium from like the seafood that I eat, not like added salt, but just the scallops seem to be high in sodium. Yeah, do salt like your food when you eat it or no? I also, just really quick, since I eat high carb, I don't feel, I feel the need more for salt when I do like low carb. Yeah, that's definitely when you need it. Yeah, no, I don't. Like I said, I have, so I have like salts. I have like Himalayan salt. I have some other like fancy salt brands that, cause fancy salt brands will reach out to me and like send me their salt. So every now and then I have like an intuitive feeling like I need some salt. And then I add like a tiny bit to my food, but otherwise no. But I did go through a period where I was eating these turkey slices that were processed and I just thought it was so interesting how I could literally, I could like feel my aldosterone and I could feel like my kidneys or my body adjusting to sodium levels. And it's like your body sets like a new, I talked to Rob Wolf about this when I had him on the show. I was like, I feel like your body sets like a salt, like a sodium like level that it feels intuitively that it's at and then it kind of like protects that level. This is all just like my experience in my body. But what I mean by that is if I don't eat any sodium, don't have any sodium at it, I don't feel like I'm retaining water. I don't feel like I'm overexcreting water. I don't crave salt. Then if I start eating some saltier foods, it's like my body hits a new like level and then that becomes the norm of intake. And then I need to like have sodium to like reach that level. And so for me, I just feel better not adding any and only adding a little bit if I am craving it. I don't know if you've had that experience.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm obsessed with salt and I think it's because I do low carb, I salt a lot. I love the taste of salt and I can't have a meal without adding salt to it. My body needs it so much. And I do a lot of elements throughout the day, like three, four, sometimes more a day. That's a bunch of five or six sometimes, but it's because I really don't eat that much carbohydrate in the day, like under 50 grams. There's a really interesting, did you talk about nitric oxide?

Melanie Avalon:
not in that answer. I did have information about it, but I did not. Would you like to?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, there's a really interesting study, I don't have the full article, but it's talking about how dietary nitrates, nitrite, and arginine can serve as sources of production of nitric oxide, which is good for us. And the conversion happens through UV exposure on the skin, which is really interesting. So, I mean, having nitric oxide is really good for us, and it's part of, I think, when probably specifically red light, because red light therapy also improves levels of nitric oxide. So I wonder if there's a connection there, because you mentioned vitamin C and antioxidants and phytonutrients. I want to look into this more, maybe I'll report back on it.

Melanie Avalon:
And the reason... No, I'm so glad you brought it up. The reason I didn't bring it up was, yeah, it's like a whole other complicated layer. But I think it involves why it's so confusing and that nitrites and nitrates from vegetables and produce seem to have health benefits and are correlated to health benefits. And yet they're also the cause of all of these potential problems. And I think it's super context dependent as far as which pathway those... they go down and whether or not they are beneficial and help create nitric oxide or if they become these harmful nitrosamines. So it's like they can go either way. I didn't know that about the red light on the skin though. That's fascinating.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I want to learn more about it. I'm going to get this article and read more and I can report back in the future.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, this was so wonderful. So for listeners, these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode383. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions by emailing questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I so enjoyed this episode again. I really appreciate the wonderful questions and I can't wait to record again soon. Likewise, I will talk to you next week. Sounds great, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

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