Episode 372: Returning To Intermittent Fasting, *New* Protein Study, Post-Exercise Muscle Synthesis, Instagram Vs. TikTok, Bodybuilding, Fat Loss, Skeletal Muscle Metabolism, And More!
Welcome to Episode 372 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
WILD HEALTH: Wild Health provides lab work and genetic testing, combined with biometric and lifestyle data, to help you determine what your body needs for health and longevity! Wild Health provides comprehensive cardiovascular disease risk, methylation, insulin resistance, and hormonal panels, as well as genetic data, personal guidance, and so much more! Get 20% off a wild health membership with the code IFPODCAST at wildhealth.com/ifpodcast!
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SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to Seed.com/IFPODCAST and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!
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SHOW NOTES
WILD HEALTH: Get 20% off a wild health membership with the code IFPODCAST at wildhealth.com/ifpodcast!
LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
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How to preserve muscle while trying to lose body fat | Peter Attia and Luc van Loon
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 372 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode #372 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How is everything in your life, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
It's really wonderful. How are things with you?
Melanie Avalon:
Good. Did you hear about the Beautycounter drama? No, what drama? Oh, okay. So this is an announcement for listeners because I know they know that I'm a major fan of Beautycounter because they make the most amazing skincare makeup products. So long story short, the original founder, her name is Greg Renfrew and she's absolutely amazing. And she founded that company with a mission to, you know, make safe skincare makeup because skin, conventional skincare makeup is just full of endocrine disruptors and all these problematic compounds that affect our health and wellness and even can affect our weight loss, which we've talked about on the show because a lot of them, this is just a side note educational piece. They are known as obesogens, which actually literally cause our bodies to store and gain weight. Point being, I don't know the timeline, but probably around two years ago, a few years ago, the company got bought by a larger company called Carlisle. They took over, they thought it was going to be all good things. And then they sort of forced Greg out of the company. So she left the company and then they asked her to come back because they were scrambling and she came back. And apparently when she came back, it was just a mess financially with the financial decisions they had made. So they actually had to foreclose and she sort of bought it back. They liquidated the company and she purchased assets so she can buy it back, like buy pieces of the brand back and relaunch it as her own brand again, which is amazing. But basically, they thought it was going to be like a really quick transition, like Beautycounter was going to foreclose and then be right back with Greg. But it's taking as legal things take way longer than they thought. So it's gone until they said hopefully fall of this year, so fall 2024. I'm just so upset because I need these products. But in the meantime, for listeners and friends, you can get the products at Ulta. So they're going to be in stores at Ulta through July and then online at Ulta after that. And I still have a lot of products. It's not like I'm selling them or anything like that individually, but I will be doing giveaways and giving them out and things like that. So still get on my Clean Beauty email list so that you can get those giveaways from me and also that you can get all the information about when the new company launches. So that is at MelanieAvalon.com/cleanbeauty. I'll give text updates. If you text Beautycounter to 877 -861 -8318. So that's 877 -861 -8318. By the way, you can also text the code word AvalonX to that text at the same time or in a separate text and you'll get my supplement updates. But yeah, it's really sad because you know when you find products that you really, really love, and I don't know what I'm going to do if I don't know. I stocked up on Ulta. I bought all the things. But yeah, so that's the update there.
Vanessa Spina:
Wow, that's crazy. I had heard something or saw something maybe about the former owner buying it back, but I had no idea it was that wild. I mean, that's, yeah, that's a lot. So it's amazing that they were able to even get it into another store temporarily, but I hate that feeling when you love something and then they discontinue it. That happens to me so much when I have a favorite lip color or something. I'll go back to buy more of it and they're like, it's discontinued. Why? Why do you do this?
Melanie Avalon:
The worst is when it's your foundation color. That's happened to me before.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, that's stuff to replace.
Melanie Avalon:
I also feel like it's interesting. I feel like this happens a lot with businesses, where somebody founds a company and then it gets, you know, like taken over by other interests and then they get kicked out. I feel like I keep seeing this happening. Like it happened with Dave and Bulletproof. And I'm just thinking about a lot right now because I keep teasing this epic major project that I'm working on. And we're like right now the process of we're coming up with the ownership percentages and just putting into place all of the framework for the future of the company. And now I'm seeing it through this lens. I'm like, is this going to be a thing? Where we get sold in the future and I get kicked out and all this drama.
Vanessa Spina:
It happens a lot. I always had a huge fear of that, I think, because I saw it happen so much when I worked in finance, and I worked in the stock market, I saw it happen all the time, and also saw it a lot in movies. And so I always was like, I'm never gonna sell any part of my company, like any shares or equity in it, until, like, if I ever just decide to sell it full out. But otherwise, I'm not giving up any ownership for any amount of capital. Like, it just, I've seen it happen too many times. And I mean, classic examples, Apple, I mean, Steve Jobs, creating this incredible company and getting completely removed from it. I mean, that's one of the most, you know, classic stories. And then he came back and brought it back to life. But I mean, to create something, and if you're a founder, entrepreneur, you know how much of your sweat, blood and tears you put into it, and then to have a bunch of other people come along, take it over, and then tell you what to do or kick you out. I mean, I can't imagine much worse when it comes to professional life. So yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting. Yeah. Cause I've been thinking about it with the company I'm forming right now, because there's basically while we're still figuring out the structure, but there's basically two co -founders and like a founding investor. And so when you, that's like three people right there. And then you need like company stock and then you have like operations stock and employee stock. And so once you like, and then other investor stock. And so once you divvy that all out and look at ownership and everything, it's like, oh, okay. So even though I might be like the primary creator here, there's literally not enough ownership percentage to give out. Like basically like other people could not that they would do this, but they could combine together and be more than me in the company, which is you probably learned so much. How long, I forgot, how long did you work in that world?
Vanessa Spina:
Let's see, it was 20, about eight years. Right out of university, I had my securities license and I went right into the markets because it was like a boom time in Vancouver when where I was living at the time, like the stock market was taking off a lot, especially with gold and silver and mining companies. And so it pulled in a lot of recent grads like into that industry. And it was just like, it was booming. It was amazing time to be in it. But I learned so much working in capital markets because you really see... I mean, you're looking at balance sheets all day. We did valuations on companies. So we would say, if the company was a buy, hold, or sell, and you learn all the different valuation models, like how to value the company, how to value the stock, what value investing is, what makes a stock or a company overvalued, etc. But you also learn so much about what makes companies fail. And I know there's a lot of different things that can make it fail, but one thing I saw over and over again was debt, taking on too much debt. And also, yeah, I mean, getting diluted, overly diluted to raise capital. And then, yeah, you can eventually dilute yourself out where you don't really own that much of the company anymore. But yeah, it was about eight years. And then I started my company in the markets. And then I started ketogenic girl as my... It was just like a hobby. And then it basically took over everything else because that started... That took off. So it's a great learning experience to work in the markets. Like if anyone wants to run a business eventually, and you're listening to this, going and working in finance in the stock market for a few years really will teach you a lot.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I'm so jealous. I feel like I'm getting a crash course and everything right now just by having to do it. What's the phrase? A baptism by fire? Is that the phrase? Yeah, yeah. Trial by fire, yeah, baptism by fire. Yeah, trial by fire. Is there, is that also?
Vanessa Spina:
Baptism by far, I wasn't as familiar with that, but I think I've heard of it. Interesting.
Melanie Avalon:
So, I feel like I need to hire you as a consultant.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm always here for you for anything. I remember we were talking about investing a couple of years ago.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, because you I actually something you told me has like, stuck in my head for so like, it's one of those pieces of advice that really just stays with me and I hear you telling me it when I hear it in my head. Do you remember what it is?
Vanessa Spina:
Is it the one about how this top CEO told me one day he was like he had founded four companies and every single one of them was worth a billion dollars and I was interviewing him when I used to anchor for this new show right before I started doing all this stuff. And he said, I always lost money investing in other people. When I invest in myself and my businesses, I never lose money. And I was like, oh, that makes so much sense because it's your company. You're going to work harder than anyone else. But if you're investing in other people's companies, you have no control over how hard they're going to work. I don't know. Was it that one?
Melanie Avalon:
That was it. Yep. I hear it all the time.
Vanessa Spina:
It's huge, right? I love doing that job because I got to ask all these billionaires and people from Shark Tank and stuff what some of their top investment advice was and just the things I wanted to know. And those little nuggets, something like that, you know someone else told them that and it stayed with them for years. And so they're passing it on.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that's so great. Do you remember any other nuggets? We're going to turn this into the intermittent fasting finance show.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, sorry listeners. We're going a little off topic into financing and investing, but I can't wait to know what your project is about for you to share it on the podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
me to stay tuned. It's very exciting. It's going very well, I think. We'll see. But yeah, anything new in your
Vanessa Spina:
world, just getting excited for summer and for a lot of family coming to visit. I've been excited about a few things related to intermittent fasting. And that's recently, I've sort of gotten back to doing the longer fasting window. And my main motivation was because I've been so sleep deprived the last couple of years from having two pregnancies and just everything that takes from your body like emotionally, physically, mentally, that I was just noticing that since I started interviewing again, that I just wasn't on the ball like I wasn't as quick as I was before, I wasn't as sharp as I was before. And it was really, really bothering me. Because you can tell when you're in the zone, when you're in the flow, when you're interviewing someone, you're asking all the questions that you want to ask. And it's such a satisfying experience at the end when you feel like you really like we were talking about mind those gems. And you said all the things that you want to say. And I just found that like I was slipping a lot. And I wasn't saying the things that I wanted to say in the moment, I was saying like the second best thing. And ever since I started doing again fasting during the day, so usually I record at four in the afternoon with my guests. So fasting until then and doing the interview with them. And then I'll usually have dinner right after because it's five o 'clock, I have dinner with my family and sort of open my eating window there. And I usually have a couple of big meals in there, two or three in there. By the time, you know, I'm all done. But I was just starting to do that and feeling my brain coming back online, like feeling my sharpness coming back my like ability to ask all the things that I want to and say the things that I want to. And I interviewed this doctor that I really admire last week, Dr. Vera Tarmen, she wrote food junkies. And I felt like this was such a good interview. And I was so excited because this is only the second one that I've done since I started doing this like oh, Matt again. And at the end of the interview, she said, Vanessa, those are some of the most intelligent questions I've ever been asked. I want to use this interview on my website. That was amazing. Like I've just never had. She just kept going on about how amazing it was. And I was like, I'm back. And I was just so excited because you know, I know how you feel about podcasting to like, you're so passionate about it as well. And I'm like, this is sustainable for me. I love it. I feel great all day. I feel energized all day. I have more time to get things done because I'm not spending like an hour, up to two hours, like prepping, serving, cleaning up after like just planning all the stuff that goes into multiple meals. And I can still do it for my family, but not doing it for myself during the day feels amazing. And I've just got, I feel like I'm getting myself back. I'm getting my brain back. And it's just such an unexpected surprise. And I'm just like, I'm just buzzing about it that I've gotten it back. So it's just kind of been fun to hear everyone sharing how much they love intermittent fasting in the last couple of episodes. And I just feel like I love it for all those reasons and so many more, but the brain benefits are really incredible.
Melanie Avalon:
That makes me so happy. Congrats on the interview. That's like the best thing somebody can say to you after an interview, I think, about the questions.
Vanessa Spina:
I know you, I'm sure you get it all the time and it's just, you know, you work for it. Like, you prepare for it. You read their books. You put so much time and effort. You know, I know you're like me, you're probably thinking about the interview every hour until you do it. And then after, like, you know if it went the way you wanted to or not. And it's, that's why we, you know, do what we do. And yeah, I'm so happy. So I'm so excited to be able to do this again. And it totally works for me to be able to fast until around five o 'clock. Super easy for me because I'm so busy during the day and I feel great this way. And I just love intermittent fasting. Like I'm re, I feel like I'm recommitting to my love of intermittent fasting. And this study that I think we're talking about next episode, but I just want to mention it here about the a hundred grams of protein and what happens with it. I'm just going to tease it has been extremely exciting with some of the findings there because it kind of really supports this sort of large protein meal. Oh, mad that I love to do. I know you love to do a lot of our listeners love to do. So I'm really excited to talk about that next episode.
Melanie Avalon:
I was just going to say really quickly, I had the same, not, well, I didn't leave it and come back. It kind of feels like you like broke up with intermittent fasting and you're like back. Totally. I know you didn't, but break up, but you know.
Vanessa Spina:
Well, I'm doing, I was doing two meals a day still on the weekend, but even ever since I read this study, I'm like, maybe I don't need to be doing that because I was forcing myself to have two or three meals a day because of what I have been learning about muscle protein synthesis. And it turns out that I didn't need to be doing that potentially because this study kind of reversed a lot of what we thought about how muscle protein synthesis is stimulated. So I feel, yeah, like I'm back. I did break up with it for a bit and now I'm back and I'm so happy.
Melanie Avalon:
Yesterday or the day before, I was just, every now and then I just randomly will have a moment of gratitude for intermittent fasting where I think it's the points that you just made. I think I was thinking about it when I was running around between errands and I was like, I can't believe at one point I was having to eat during the day. I was having to deal with that multiple times and completely respect to everybody, find the windows that work for you. For me, just you're mentioning the time benefits and the brain benefits. It's just so nice to have a completely uninterrupted time block of productivity and work and doing all the things and not having to stop and eat and all of that. It just works so, so well. I'm curious, so this study that we're going to talk about, did you find it after listening to that interview on the Peter Atiyah?
Vanessa Spina:
No, which is so funny. So I heard about it when it first came out in December. And then I read through Dr. Bill Campbell's analysis of him because I subscribed to his research review and he was breaking it down and I was really excited about it. And then I sort of noted who the authors were, but Dr. Luke Van Loon, who did that interview with Peter Attia that you're talking about, his name is at the end of the study. So I didn't see it because I expected it to be a primary author. Oh, he's on the study though. He's on it, but his name is like the last one. So he was part of it. And so they talk about it a little bit. I'm like not fully through that interview with Dr. Peter Attia because it's so amazing. I'm savoring it. But that's another thing is when I'm fasting during the day, I find myself way more able to take on complex because my cognition is enhanced. It really is like, I would say 30 to 40% improved when I'm fasting, especially now with the sleep deprivation and like postpartum and everything. And my ability to focus on a long two hour interview where you have to listen to every single word was really diminished. And now that I've been doing this the past couple of weeks, I can fully enjoy an interview like that again. And it's not like I'm forcing myself to listen to it because I have to, it's just a pure ecstatic pleasure. Like I was texting, I'm like, this interview is like a brain gas them for me because it's just amazing because my cognition is so enhanced. It makes listening to a very complex interview and topic very interesting. And when I wasn't fasting, I felt like that was tiring, like it was taxing to do, which is weird because I'm more in the fed state. You would think that you would have more energy, but I don't, for me, I think it's really the ketones, like the ketones that I get from fasting throughout the day, especially in the afternoon when I really get into ketosis and fat burning. That's when my cognition really, really goes up. And yeah, I can, I want to listen to in depth, complex interviews. Whereas I don't, like when I wasn't doing the fasting, I wanted to listen to more entertainment. Isn't that interesting?
Melanie Avalon:
No, I'm the exact same way. So like in my daily schedule, which is very, I've been doing the same thing for years and years, but all my work, like everything I do pre my one meal a day is, it's all work, which I love. I have so much fun and I enjoy it, but it's all, like you said, it's like cognitively stimulating and it's, I'll say it again, it's work. After I eat, that's when I take my like one moment where I consume content that isn't work related. It's just entertainment stuff. Like you said, that's
Vanessa Spina:
So funny. And do you feel like the desire for deep work or deeply focused tasks is gone? Or is it more that the pull towards entertainment and sort of shutting your brain off is like, there's got to be a connection with the fact that you're now spending all this energy digesting and you don't have as much for your brain.
Melanie Avalon:
No, that's it. That's it. So like, literally, the way it feels, and I've, I've like thought about this, and you just perfectly articulated it is when I'm have all this food and I'm digesting it, I literally feel like all my energy is going towards that digestion and that if I were to cognitively try to do work and focus on something, it would take away from that digestion energy like it doesn't feel like if energy was like this like colorful swirl that was like happening, it's like I see it going towards the food, it doesn't need to go somewhere else. And so that's where I need to just be like, consume entertainment stuff. I actually I do read while I'm eating, like I read books for the show, but that doesn't require that doesn't require synthesizing information, it doesn't require coming up with new information, it's literally just reading. So I can like I can like read and take notes. But then even after eating, that's when I just if I do do any like mindless scrolling on Instagram, or, you know, things like that, that's when I do that.
Vanessa Spina:
So it's really funny. I wonder if any listeners, you'll have to share with us in the Facebook group or, or something. If you have a similar experience, I would love to, to hear from you guys on that.
Melanie Avalon:
Same. I love that we have the exact same experience. That's amazing. It's very validating. I know, I know. I literally, because I do think about, I think about that a lot. How I just observe this energy shift and how I'm, the type of activities I'm doing in my life and how it relates to food.
Vanessa Spina:
I just feel so exhilarated, like, so excited about this because, you know, I'm, I just feel like I have myself back. And I think there is also connection to the fact that I just had two pregnancies. So I couldn't really do this that much. Like I would do two meals a day and still felt like I was pushing it in terms of like what I could do or get away with being pregnant because, you know, getting super nutrient dense meals to the baby was so important to me both times. And I felt like with two meals a day, you know, that was working, but I didn't want to try OMAD or anything like that. So now that I'm almost five months postpartum, I feel like, you know, and as we were talking about before it hasn't affected my prolactin levels, like my breastfeeding is still great. I'm exclusively breastfeeding and, you know, the fact that I, it's one of those things I guess that you can kind of, you kind of give up or sacrifice things. Like when you are pregnant, there's a lot of things that you, you know, change and you do everything that you need to do for the baby because that's what matters the most. But then, you know, after a little bit of time, you can get back to some things, you know, just for yourself and that, that's kind of what this feels like. So yeah, I'm really, really excited.
Melanie Avalon:
happy for you. Vanessa's back. I mean, you didn't go anywhere. A certain version of Vanessa is back. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
I wish I could fast while we record this as well, but it is usually right after we have dinner, but that's fine. At least, you know, maybe I still have some ketones floating around.
Melanie Avalon:
Which speaking of, I still love using your tone device. It's so fun. Thank you for sending that. I'm noticing really interesting patterns. Ooh. I tend to make the same amount of ketones because as listeners know, I do a, well, I don't know if they know this. A lot of them know this. I typically eat a high protein, high, come on, yeah, because we talked about this, high carb from fruit and lower fat. Consistently when I do that in the one meal a day situation, by the next evening, I seem to be light fat burning according to your tone device for ketones. The days that I do like meat only, it's a wild card. Some days it's more ketones than normal. And sometimes it says zero. It seems to have been about 50 -50.
Vanessa Spina:
And how often do you like switch things up? I sort of thought you did the same thing every day, but you also do like meet only days sometimes.
Melanie Avalon:
started doing that more, I've started doing that more over the past few months and they're not completely meat only. I still have a lot of cucumbers. I don't have any of the fruit. So it's basically higher protein, lower carb. Yeah, that's been really interesting to see. Yeah, it's really fun to do the tone device. So for listeners, it's a ketone breath analyzer and super easy to use, super cute and carry it around with you. Talk to listeners.
Vanessa Spina:
it. It's all at ketogenicgirl .com and you can just click on the tone device. We have the second generation available now. It's the one that Melanie has and it comes in black and gold and black and rose gold and white and pink and gold. Very feminine and.
Melanie Avalon:
I love rose gold. I remember the year I decided that was going to be my color. It's like rose gold. I mean, do you remember when rose gold first started becoming like the color? And I was like, this is a great color because it takes like all of the everything I love about pink. But it makes it like super refined and classy and like like a nice accent for like lifestyle like your apartment and stuff, you know.
Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. My husband's obsessed with gold. And so I'm like rose gold is like my, yeah, the feminine version of it. It's so great.
Melanie Avalon:
So great. So anyways, this study that you keep hinting at that I'm so excited to talk about, can we talk about it?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I would love to. So I was mentioning, I first heard about it in December. I read Dr. Bill Campbell's breakdown of it. And last week I recorded a full breakdown on my podcast. And when I first heard about it, I was excited about it because I knew that it was providing some new information, some novel insights. But when I fully like really, really broke it down and I love doing podcast episodes just on one study because you could really go deep on it, I realized like not only was the study amazing in the results that it found and the conclusions, but also because it completely reversed all of the findings and conclusions we had on this topic before. So in the past there had been research done on this specific topic of how much muscle protein synthesis or the generation or creation of new muscle, building new muscle is created after you consume. Usually it was measuring zero grams of protein, 20 to 25 grams of protein, and then 40 grams of protein. And they would do muscle biopsies on the subjects for around four hours usually, sometimes up to six hours. And it turns out that this was actually a fatal flaw that no one realized because when they did this, they always came to a similar conclusion. There were four main studies that had been done in this area in the past. And they basically concluded that 25 grams of protein maximized muscle protein synthesis after you consume that much protein. Like there's no point eating more than 25 grams of protein. So many protein advocates that I are very well researched said this, like you're wasting your time consuming more than 25 grams of protein. And some of that was also based on this concept of like the leucine threshold and everything. And they found that every time they measured 40 grams of protein, it really didn't increase muscle protein synthesis much more than the 25 grams. But again, they stopped measuring four to six hours after. So this new study, what they did was measure zero grams of protein, 25 grams of protein, and 100 grams of protein. That's what I sort of thought initially they had done. But not only that, they measured it for 12 hours afterwards. So more than double all of the other studies that have been done in the past. And because those other studies only measured it for four to six hours, they concluded that muscle protein synthesis was kind of shutting down or it was stopping. But it turns out that 100 grams of protein stimulates muscle protein synthesis way more than even the 25 grams that you consume. And it continues to stimulate muscle protein synthesis for at least 12 hours. Because what if they measured more than 12 hours? It might just be an ongoing thing. They also had some other novel insights, just so many contributions to this field of knowledge. And they talked about two different kinds of protein absorption. So you have something called explanic sequestration, which is how much of the protein that you eat is actually converted into amino acids. How much of it makes it past your gut? Because some amino acids actually fuel your gut and get absorbed right at the gut level. How much of it actually makes it through your system, and then makes it into your blood and your peripheral system, where it's then sort of this amino acid pool that your muscles can dip into and soak up those amino acids. Then once the amino acids make it into your muscle tissue, how much of those amino acids actually make it into your contractile tissue is a whole other thing because that's actually what's building muscle. So what they found with 25 grams of protein, I think they said around 13 grams actually makes it to your muscles in terms of amino acid content. But with 100 grams of protein, about 53 grams in terms of amino acids makes it to your muscles. So it's a massive difference. And so for people who like to consume big protein meals, this is a game changer because, so for example, I used to always think I should do two to three meals a day because if I ate more than 25 grams at my one meal, I was basically wasting all the rest. So they were, a lot of people would say like, you're basically just oxidizing that quote unquote, excess protein and you're burning it as fuel, but it turns out that's not what's happening. You're continuously using those amino acids. So I then thought, well, if I'm going to consume 100 grams of protein in a day or sort of like 125 grams of protein a day, I have to split that up into at least two to three meals so that I can maximize muscle protein synthesis three times a day, four times a day. This is like, what do you call it? Like the dogma of protein and like muscle building communities is like everything, bodybuilding communities, everyone believes this. Like you should eat six times a day. Then you're going to maximize muscle protein synthesis six times a day. But it turns out based on this new study, you don't need to do that because you're 100 grams of protein or 125 grams of protein or how much protein you consume at that one sitting. A lot more of it is making it to your muscle and it's continuously stimulating it for hours afterwards. So this one study, it was done at the, I think University of Maastricht in the Netherlands and Dr. Luke Van Loon was one of the lead, I think, authors on the study, the one who was just interviewed by Dr. Peter Attia. And it basically just blows the lid off of everything that we used to believe about consuming protein.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. Okay, for first of all, for bringing this study and telling us all about it. I'm so happy that you listened to that interview as well. Because I know this is like two different things. I remember that really. And we talked about this, I think last episode, we'll put a link, we'll put a link to everything in the show notes. So for listeners, there was an interview with Peter Tia, and Dr. Luke van Loon. So we'll put a link to that episode. And then this specific article that Vanessa is talking about or study, it's called the anabolic response to protein and it's from December, 2023, published in cell reports medicine. And I remember, like you're saying, when I listened to the interview with Luke, it was blowing my mind because he kept talking about how basically what you just said that when you have a massive bolus of protein, that that muscle stimulus is just elongated. So so yes, it might look like it's less in the beginning, but that's just because it's a longer timeline. And so the stimulus is lasting. And I'm just so I hadn't read the study, Vanessa's talking about, I'm just looking at it briefly now. It makes me so excited. So for example, like she was just saying, it says, following ingestion of 100 grams of protein did not plateau. But 26%, 44% and 53% of the ingested protein derived amino acids appearing over four, eight and 12 hours respectively. So that makes so much sense that like, all these other like you were saying, like all these other studies that they do, they look at it like far as later and it's like, oh, just 26% of 100 grams of protein. So you only used 20, you know, six grams of that. But if they had kept waiting to eight hours, it would have been 44. And if they had waited to 12 hours, it would have been 53. So that's mind blowing. That's really mind blowing. And see you next time. Bye bye.
Vanessa Spina:
Muscle biopsies are not easy to do. So it kind of makes sense why, I mean, they're basically having to take out muscle tissue, cut out muscle tissue from the subjects every so many hours. So it makes sense that they capped it at four hours, right? Like that's pretty grueling to do. So I mean, I'm so thankful to those subjects who volunteered or who participated to do it for 12 hours. But you can kind of see why they didn't do it for that long.
Melanie Avalon:
This is kind of like the thing at the beginning that you told me about investing in yourself. This is something that's going to stick with me. Yes.
Vanessa Spina:
And the study that they did that just came out in December that we're talking about, they used this isotopically labeled milk protein. So they were able to tag the amino acids specifically and then trace them in the body so they could see exactly which ones were basically absorbed through digestion, broken down, and which ones actually made it to the blood, and which ones actually made it into the contractile muscle tissue. And that's also one of the things that really sets this study apart. So the duration of it and the fact that they isotopically labeled the milk protein and the amino acids so that they could actually see exactly where they ended up.
Melanie Avalon:
That was one of the things I thought was so fun and interesting. And the interview with Luke and Peter is when he was talking about, because basically it sounds like what he loves doing, like what he does is tracking amino acids and where they go. And he was talking about how the journey of an amino acid from like a cow in some country to they use that milk and then they used it to trace and then it goes through the body and then it comes out and then it's like I'm paraphrasing, but like back on a jar on his shelf, like he like tracks the journey of amino acids and it's really fascinating.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm only about a quarter of the way through of the interview, but I can't wait to listen to the rest of it. I mostly just read the study, and then I sort of was at the point where they were talking about, like Peter was asking him a lot about like carb intake and what happens with that. And then they had a couple really interesting insights. They shared about how in the past, like one thing that diabetics and athletes have in common is that they have a lot of intramuscular fat. And, but what's interesting about the diabetics is it just stays there. It's sort of stagnant, whereas with the athletes, it's constantly turning over. And it's because athletes develop the ability to store more fat in the muscle. And he said that this thing is what stuck with me the most. He said that when they looked at the muscle tissue and the muscle biopsies, when they were looking at the fat, it looks like little lipid droplets. Like when you look at soup and there's oil on the top and on that would be a little mitochondria and it would have this fat droplet attached to it, like a backpack. I keep picturing like a little mitochondria with a backpack.
Melanie Avalon:
A little lift would drop it back, back, back.
Vanessa Spina:
It's the cutest thing ever.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I can't unsee that.
Vanessa Spina:
I was like, this guy is my guy, like, it's the cutest thing ever. I really hope I get to interview him or meet him. Interview him? Yeah. Are you going to reach out to him? I have. I have my email. Last week I reached out to him on LinkedIn, so I'm trying different ways. You know, slide into the DMs. Yeah. I feel like he's not someone who's on Instagram. He looks like a very serious person. He sounds like a very serious person. I'm not saying serious people aren't on Instagram, but they know it's not the most serious place. So he's probably on Twitter. I might have to go on Twitter to do it. And I hate going on Twitter.
Melanie Avalon:
I have only been on Twitter two times in the past three years, I think.
Vanessa Spina:
You left fake about. Cuz we just, I know.
Melanie Avalon:
you feel the same way about it. No, no, no, I was saying because I I've only gone on like twice. And do you know why I went on to invite someone or for something else? No, I went on because the two times I had Gary Taubes on he was like, if you tweet about this, I'll retweet you. And I was like,
Vanessa Spina:
I was going to say it's probably Taylor Central -related.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, I did tweet about Taylor Quik during the Ticketmaster fiasco. That's what it was. I remember that. I needed to join the collective people suffering. I need to be there. I need to like dip in for a second. Oh, man. Yeah, I don't like Twitter. I go and I'm like, oh, okay. It's like, oh, you know what it's like? It's like if you're like, I don't know if this analogy is a real thing. It's like if you're like walking around at a university, like peeking in different classes and like you are registered in one class, but you're not sure which one you're just like opening doors and you like open the wrong one. Like, oh, this is not my class. Like leave.
Vanessa Spina:
I feel actually, I always think about this analogy. Tim Ferriss said, he says he, he had different analogies for all the different social medias. He said going into Twitter is like walking into a party and people are throwing beer bottles at your head.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Yes. And they're doing it like esoterically.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, for me, it just is so intense. It feels like I'm in a, at a party and everyone is like yelling over each other and they're like me, look at me.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't like it.
Vanessa Spina:
It's just like this, uh, just like so intense and it goes so fast and yeah, it's not my.
Melanie Avalon:
TikTok, my brief experience there was really like, I was like, oh, this is not my place.
Vanessa Spina:
I told you remember I was like, I'm not investing time on it because I know it's going to get banned and it's happening now.
Melanie Avalon:
It was a hot moment and I was like, okay, we're done. I like Instagram, I feel happy there.
Vanessa Spina:
People say like, Instagram makes me feel like bad. TikTok makes me happy. And I'm like, I don't know, like Instagram is fine. I feel fine.
Melanie Avalon:
there. That's the way I feel. I really, and I feel strongly about this because people say that. And I really think, not that people are victim, I just, I feel like that's a little bit of a victim mentality. Like you, you choose the content you're consuming there and then the algorithm adapts to what you're watching. So the algorithm is not go, okay, if you like show up as a blank slate, it's not going and like finding all this stuff and like throwing it at you. It's doing it based on what you choose to watch. So if you're watching content that is content that you, you know, that makes you feel good and that helps you and educates you, it'll feed you more of that content. Like my whole homepage is like biohacking and Taylor Swift.
Vanessa Spina:
That's how I feel. People who don't like Instagram, I think they're not curating their feed enough because when I go in, I see stuff that really interests me. I see stuff, content about homeschooling, which I'm really interested in. I'm constantly learning things. I see stuff about protein and science. I don't see a lot of content that would make me feel bad. I know that content is probably there, but it's not in my feed. Just make sure it's not there.
Melanie Avalon:
You have to treat it like a pet or like a boyfriend that you're training. Like you have to like encourage the good behavior. So like if it throws you something that you don't like, don't watch it, do not click on it.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. And I think that's why some people feel that way about TikTok is because I think that algorithm is better at doing that for you. You spend a lot of time on it, it will curate you content. If you like cottages in Scotland or whatever, it'll be in baking or something, it'll show you that stuff. Whereas on Instagram, you just have to do that for yourself. And if you don't do that, then you're just going to sort of have to take in whatever content they want to serve you.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, there should be like a filter like on a dating app or something, it should be like a screenshot of your Instagram homepage, because you can learn a lot about people by what is on there.
Vanessa Spina:
on their search page, it's true. So yeah, I just wanted to say, just clarify one last thing about in the study, when they took the 25 gram protein drink over 12 hours, they had about 16 grams of that was then peripherally available in the bloodstream over the 12 hours. So about one third of the amino acids were consumed by the digestive system. That's what I was saying, the splenic sequestration. And then about two thirds or 66% of the amino acid content of that protein meal made it past the digestive system and into the bloodstream where it then became available to muscles. When they did the 100 gram milk protein ingestion, 53 grams were peripherally available after consuming it. So with 25 grams, which people were saying that's the upper limit where you max it out, only two thirds or 16 grams of that is then peripherally available. Whereas if you eat a 100 gram meal, like we often do with OMAD, 53 grams, so more than half of that is actually making it its way to that peripheral availability for your muscles. So you're getting way more amino acids available to your muscles that's in the bloodstream and then it's available to your muscles for uptake. And then when they, because they had tagged the amino acids for the 25 gram dose, they found about 4 .5 grams was incorporated into the actual skeletal muscle and the 100 gram dose of protein, they had 13 grams that was incorporated into the skeletal muscle. So it's really amazing. And I think it really finally, I guess makes a case for people who like to do OMAD and feel good doing it and they don't have to worry so much about not taking in every opportunity throughout the day by eating multiple meals. And for people who do like to eat two to three meals a day, I'm sure that that's equally great or maybe even better to be doing if you want to build muscle. But if you like to eat OMAD and have a huge bolus of protein, according to this study, you're not gonna suffer in terms of your muscle gain. I'm really excited to talk to this, talk to some really amazing researchers that I'm gonna have on the podcast in the next couple of months. I'm really excited to sort of dive into this more deeply and the implications of it and what it means for muscle protein science because it's really just such a reversal on what has been said for so many years before. And I'm just so thankful for this study and amazed by all the different insights that we got from it. I'm just so excited about all these new findings that this study had and it's basically, it's kind of also exhilarating to see that you could have a really strongly held belief for a long time, something that everyone believes and sort of takes for granted. And then you could have one study come along and do something that the other studies didn't think to do and completely reverse all of the knowledge that you'd had until then or all the findings is sort of similar with like the fourth phase water that Dr. Gerald Pollack discovered. It's like these paradigm shifting studies and I think this is definitely one of them. And I'm really excited to talk to some protein experts that I have coming on the podcast in the next few months because I just wanna talk about the implications of this and how it's gonna change the way we think about recommendations to people to maximize their muscle gains. And in the past, I think because of those previous studies, I really believe and like I was told by so many protein experts, you have to do at least two or three meals a day to maximize muscle protein synthesis. You can maybe get away with two, but it turns out that if you're eating a large bolus of protein, and this is a topic we've talked about so many times on this podcast and just in our own conversations with each other about does having a huge bolus of protein, does it affect and doing intermittent fasting during the day, does it affect your potential to gain muscle? So I think it's just, it's like the study was made for us.
Melanie Avalon:
No, it's amazing. And I'm really glad you mentioned that last thing that you said you want to mention, because it explains, it explains why both are true. It explains why because the numbers that you gave, yes, there's a bigger net gain overall in the amount of proteins that reach the muscle with the hundred grams after, you know, the longer hours, but it's a lower percent of that protein compared to when it's the smaller amount, because it was like two thirds versus, you know, 50%. So that would explain why if muscle gain, like bodybuilder, whatever was your biggest, and I'm, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, but my, my interpretation of that data is if your goal is like competition level, like super physiological building a muscle, you'll get a better percent of converting muscle up converting protein into ultimately contractile tissue and muscle. If you do these smaller meals, because it's like, you know, two thirds versus a little bit over 50%. But for the everyday person doing that one larger meal, you're going to get ample tons of amino acids over the longterm. And if you were just comparing, if you only had like a 25 gram protein meal, or you only had a hundred gram protein meal, and that was it, you would get more protein from that 100 gram compared to the smaller one. Does that make sense?
Vanessa Spina:
Exactly. If you're only having one 25 gram meal in a day, you're probably not going to get enough. So you probably want to do it two or three times. But if you're only having one 100 gram meal and you're not a bodybuilder, then you're going to be just fine. So even if your goal is to build muscle, because some people might hear that and be like, well, I don't want to step on stage, but I do really want to build muscle, but you're still going to get enough amino acids. What I'm curious about is if you do that in the morning, it's probably going to be like if you were someone who likes to do OMAD and you do want to step on stage, you probably could do it if you had that OMAD in the morning. Because you then would be stimulating muscle protein synthesis for 12 hours after and be working out a few times during that period, which also stimulates muscle protein synthesis. But if you have it at night and then you go to bed, you're not working out during that time. I'm just thinking for someone who's a bodybuilder but wants to do OMAD, that could potentially be a thing. That's just one of these things I want to talk to some of these protein researchers about and get their opinions on it.
Melanie Avalon:
I'll be really curious when you finish the interview. Let me know what you think about, because later in the interview, he talks about the conversion of protein into fat. Did this article talk about that at all?
Vanessa Spina:
I did hear him talk about that part. I'm not sure. I heard him talk about it in the first third or quarter. And he said that it's likely highly overestimated how much sort of, again, quote unquote, excess protein is being converted to fat. And he said, it's only happening. And they both talked about the pathway through which it happens. If you, in his opinion, it's only happening if you are eating well over your caloric needs. And that sort of makes sense with everything, right? If you're eating too much fat over your caloric needs, you're probably going to gain weight. But if you're not overdoing what you burn in a day, then you won't gain fat. If you're eating a lot of carbs in excess of what you burn in a day, you probably will put on weight. So it kind of is the same thing with protein. So they talked about that prurveate conversion pathway. But he said, it's likely only ever happening if you're eating way more protein, which would be very hard to do. Then you're sort of consuming more protein. You're consuming more calories from protein than you burn in the day you're consuming excess calories, not excess protein. Is that the part you're talking about?
Melanie Avalon:
about? It was the part where they were talking about the pathway being like the protein converting basically to glucose and then converting from glucose to fat. That was one of the pathways, I think. I don't remember if there was a direct protein to fat conversion.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he was saying, like, protein to glucose to-
Melanie Avalon:
prove it, I think. Yeah. What was interesting about it for me was I think I was a little bit on the flip side where I've been like, Oh, it's really, really impractical for protein to become fat. Like I just didn't really think it was realistically happening. And so listening to him, I was like, okay, it does happen because he said it does happen. But like you said, it requires a lot of circumstances. I guess I'm so interested in it because of the exuberant amount of protein that I eat.
Vanessa Spina:
He said it's the most inefficient, which most people like Dr. Ted Naaman and others talk about. And it's likely only happening. You'd have to be consuming protein in amounts where you would be eating several thousand calories of protein. That's what it sounds like.
Melanie Avalon:
which I sort of do, so that's why historically, that's why I'm like really, that's why I've been interested in the concept for so many years.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you are though, clearly you're not, you know, you don't have excess weight that you need to lose like you're not. Oh, true. Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
I do think I, um, I don't know the amount of, I don't know. I have gone through periods where I was eating so much protein. It's, it's really interesting, but yeah, Oh, this was so fun. I'm so excited about this. Yeah, me too. Article. Thank you for finding.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, I think I've heard this question be asked so many times over the years on this podcast. I've had it asked me so many times over the years and it's kind of been, you know, a big debate like is intermittent fasting harming your muscle gain goals? It's like such a topic that we all want to understand because it's so important to all of us. And I know so many people like me were like, okay, I guess I'll eat more meals in the day. But once you really like the intermittent fasting lifestyle, you know, and like I've talked about myself, there's been times where I didn't feel good to meet a fast all day. And then I went, I enjoyed having more meals like from, you know, sometimes on holiday with my family or there's just days or like when I was pregnant, I needed to eat more meals. Like there's just times in life when it maybe it doesn't feel as good and you have to listen to your instincts. But if in general, you're someone who loves this lifestyle, that's why you're here because you love this lifestyle, you love what it does for you, you know, and it really works well for you and you're fearing that doing it is making you lose muscle. It's something I also want to talk about in the next episode because I know we have a bunch of questions about fasting and muscle loss. And I have something I want to clarify that I recently heard Dr. Don Lehman say with regards to fasting and protein. And I think, yeah. Such a teaser. Yeah. I don't have to put that as a teaser at the end. I think it's a really good clarifying point.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I love it. Oh, I'm excited. Okay. Well, thank you again so much. That was epic. I'm, I just really appreciate that. And that was, oh, I learned so much. So listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at I have podcast .com or you can go to I have podcast .com and you can submit questions there. And you can get the show notes for today's show. There will be a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So that will be very helpful, especially with all of the conversation that we had. That will be at ifpodcast.com/episode372. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And you can follow us on Instagram. Speaking of, at I have podcasts and I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun talking about all these topics with you all today and can't wait to be on the next one with you. You too. I will talk to you next week. All right. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.
Melanie Avalon:
See you next week!
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
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