Episode 375: Blood Glucose Control, Post Prandial Glucose Excursions, Eating Timing, CGMs, Fun Recipes For Electrolytes, Collagen, And More!
Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
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Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?
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Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 375 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I'm great, how are you?
Melanie Avalon:
I'm good. I'm looking at when this airs. So when this airs, hopefully my spirulina will be coming out soon next month, which is exciting. I've just been waiting, you know, a long time for that. Listeners can get on the email list at AvalonX .us slash email list. And then also my third podcast should have launched the Mindblown podcast. I'm really excited because I listened yesterday to the first episode because we got it back from the editors and it's just so fun. It's so exciting to have like a podcast. I love health stuff, but to like have a podcast about like completely different topics. I remember you said you were thinking sometime at some point you might have a podcast as well about other things. Yes. I think about it all the time. Well, I definitely, definitely support that. So listeners can check that out. It's the Mindblown podcast. One last, this is just like a random fun thing I did. I went and saw Legally Blonde, the musical. Do you like that musical? Do you know it? No, I don't. Did you like Legally Blonde, the movie? The musical is so, it's really good. I wore pink, which was crazy because I always wear black, but I had flashbacks because I don't know if you might've seen this on Instagram, but it reminded me because remember how in that movie Elle Woods has like her entrance essay or her like her entrance video for Harvard. She submits this video to get into Harvard and it's like, you know, it's all about like blonde and she's like a swarthy girl and it's like over the top and then she gets into Harvard. My entrance, when I submitted for the USC film school, which at the time they told us it had a lower acceptance rate than Harvard. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. I'm only saying that to like clarify this story and how it relates to Legally Blonde. So in my admission essay, I literally made the first sentence. I said something about how like how important good hair days are to females and then I said I would give up all my good hair days for admission to the USC School of Cinematic Arts and it worked. I got in because I knew that they had a really low, they were heavily skewed towards males for that program. So I was like, I'm gonna play up my female -ness. I don't know if that would fly today, but.
Vanessa Spina:
You're like the Elle Woods of innocent fasting, I know.
Melanie Avalon:
I know. Oh, man. I do not miss the days of college admission essays. Do you remember those days? Mm -hmm. I do. Ooh, crazy. Do you still have dreams that you, like, are in college? Like, nightmares?
Vanessa Spina:
I did when I was going to university, I would have nightmares a lot because growing up, I went to so many different schools and it was always very stressful to have to leave all my established friend groups and then start over fresh and be the new kid. And sometimes that was a good thing, sometimes it wasn't. In my last year of high school, I kept having this repeated dream about going to university and being the new kid but I didn't realize everyone's a new kid so it's way easier when you're all new. And I made friends right away and I had an amazing time at university but yeah, I remember having so many nightmares about it.
Melanie Avalon:
Were you in a different like click or friend group at all the different times that you changed? I mean, I don't know it was new people, but like type of group of people.
Vanessa Spina:
sometimes. Yeah, it's just the culture was so different in each school too. But yeah, I mean, I, I had such a great time when I went to school. I am, especially university was amazing. Like high school was good and bad, but university was incredible. I had so much fun. Did you have a good experience?
Melanie Avalon:
I did I was actually reflecting on this yesterday with my family because we were watching do you remember that? I don't know if you remember this the Angela Johnson YouTube short it was like one of the first like YouTube videos that really went viral It's that manicure skit about getting a manicure at the nail salon. Okay, I'll just send it to you. It's like It's amazing. We were revisiting it and rewatching it but I remember I saw her live because at USC there's this like there's the quad which is The I don't know. It's where they it's a quad like a university quad Yeah, okay. Okay. I feel like all schools have like the quad. Okay. I just remember I was like a freshman my dorm actually like looked over the quad and I was like, do they think we're Like we must be constantly stimulated because every single day there was like something happening Like really big deal on that quad So like it'd be like things like that like bringing in famous people and having like shows one day I woke up and there was so this was in LA There was skiing on the quad. They brought in like a slope Yeah, like was and you could ski down it. I was like what is happening? So like I Remember like college was like this crazy experience of Like you said, it's all new people You get to just make all these decisions about you know Your classes and when your classes are and you're like And there's all this fun stuff to do and then like freshman year you like sign up for all the things You're like i'm gonna do all the things and then you don't end up doing all the things But yeah, like I signed up for fencing and ballroom dancing and none of that panned out but Oh, well So flashback years anything new in your world?
Vanessa Spina:
I've been feeling like a kid on Christmas morning every day because, as I told you, I started a new CGM, and that has been so much fun because I'm kind of doing it, I think, in a way that is maybe unique to how a lot of people use it, because I think a lot of people are using it to maybe cut certain carbs out of their life. And I'm doing the opposite. I'm using it to see which carbs I can tolerate well and add back in, and it's been really, really fun to use it. And when I did it before, I was carnivore, and I shared how my CGM was basically just a flat line. It was not interesting at all. I just kept checking it, and then I was like, it's got to be wrong, and then I would double check with a finger prick, and it was just boring to watch. But now that I'm in a whole different phase of my life, I'm doing optimal protein. I've been calling it lately hyperprotein. Hyperprotein, we were talking about different, needing a good name.
Melanie Avalon:
I was just saying that we were talking about how we needed a name for it, hyperprotein.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, because that really is the focus is the lean protein. And in my opinion, adding, you know, your mix of fuel, because protein is the building block macro, your mix of fuel macros, carbs or fat, it's all up to you. You know, at the end of the day, it's your energy macros. But I do think it's better to choose lower glycemic ones with high fiber, if you're going carb route, you know, and to choose healthier fats, obviously, but it's so much fun at this stage in my life to be testing all kinds of different things. And it's kind of summertime. So we've been doing all this fun stuff. So I've been able to test fun things like glasses of Prosecco, seeing what that does to me. And then I told you, I tried half a banana, which I haven't had in years. And then I made some homemade hummus. Like I'm testing all these things. And so far, everything that I thought was going to happen is not happening. Like the things that I was assuming were spiking my blood sugar all the time have not been. Oh, wow. Yeah, at all, which is crazy. It's just been so incredibly insightful. So I'm really excited to, you know, sort of dedicate this episode to to cgms, especially because I know you know so much about using them. I'm kind of a newbie. So you know, we can kind of go through it for other people who are newer to it. And maybe it'll answer some questions that people have about using it. But it feels I feel like a kid on Christmas every day, this is I keep telling Luca, like mommy has a new toy. And he loves taking my phone and scanning the sensor, you know, because it makes the phone vibrate. She's like, I want to do it. I want to do it. But it's it really feels like, like a fun toy. But it is so incredibly insightful. So that's the most exciting thing going on. I have been working on launching tone collagen, which should be out and around now or around this time. And we are going to be doing an exclusive launch discount on it. So I do want to mention that is something I've been working on and really, really excited about too. That's pretty much every
Melanie Avalon:
everything that's new in my life. Oh my goodness. Okay. So many things. Okay. So I want to clarify. I want to super, super clarify for listeners, because I'm going to ask you some questions about your CGM experience. So everybody is so individual. And so if Vanessa says that she, you know, certain things spiked her blood sugar, it's like an example of how you just don't know, like people, like people can react so differently to different foods. And that's why I think the CGM is so important because it actually shows you how you are reacting and like, and what works for your body. So I'm dying to know. So what were some things that you thought were spiking your blood sugar that weren't and vice versa?
Vanessa Spina:
So I just assumed that every day my high protein meals were raising my blood glucose at least 20 or 30 points. And they're not. They're just not like it's barely like I've been between this range of like low 60s, upper 70s, the highest I was going for most I've been on it for a week now. So it's not that much data. We can circle back in like three more weeks. I'll have like two months worth of data to talk about. This is just sort of the initial things that have been happening. So my blood glucose is still pretty flat, even though I'm not doing carnivore anymore. And I just assumed that carnivore was keeping it so flat. But I really think it's because my insulin sensitivity is so high as we were talking about on the last episode. So working hard to bring your insulin down can really make a difference. And I think that's what I'm seeing is it's well, first of all, my meals are high protein. And so they are very slowly broken down. And that explains a little bit of that like flat line response. But I just assumed that when I was having a huge high protein meal that it was at least going up and doing a small spike. Because everybody tells you things like whey protein, spikes your blood glucose, caffeine, which is another one I'll talk about, but all these things we assume spike our blood glucose. And we just believe it because other people tell us that or people that we respect tell us that. And like you said, we assume because it spiked their blood glucose that it'll do that for us too. Or because it spiked the blood glucose of a group of people in a study that it'll do that for us too. But my blood glucose has been so stable. I mean, it barely goes up after my meals. A big thing that I noted is that most of the days I've been wearing the CGM, I am pretty active. So I'm moving my body around most of the day. I'm averaging like somewhere between 10 to 12 ,000 steps in the day, which is not crazy, but it's not sitting around all day. I'm just a busy, active person. And most of those days I'm also doing maybe like five out of seven of those days. I'm doing a around 45 minute to an hour workout of resistance training. Not a hardcore. I'm not one of those people who's at a gym doing like these crazy squats and you know, benching like super heavy weights. I'm not my workouts are not like that, but you know, I'm active and I'm doing a weights workout, resistance training workout. And on those days, which is most of the time, it's amazing. The response to the meal that I usually have after my workout, it's, it barely moves. So I was shocked. I really thought that, you know, having a huge protein meal, having dessert for me, which is like my tone protein with some plain yogurt, I assumed that was doing another blood glucose spike. And then I have a shake with tone protein with berries, just kind of like a second meal in my eating window. And then I have protein puddings, usually a couple of them. And I've also been testing lately, these chalk, zero marshmallows, and I assumed that those were doing things, nothing, nothing was moving on those days, especially like I said, because I'm really active. So that was a huge insight is that I track my activity, I'm a very active person. And that just that combined with having a low insulin, it gives you incredible recovery. So all my meals are like 100% score in terms of recovery and all the different measurements that they do, which is just really cool to see a couple other things that were really interesting. I had a couple days where I wasn't as active. And I noticed, for example, because we went away for this weekend, the days that we were in the car, doing mostly driving, there was a more moderate minimal amount of activity on those days. And that's when I had more of a response to the meals. but still nothing crazy, nothing like 30, 40 point spike. Like most of my meals, I'd say 20 point spike at the height. But because again, they're high protein, if you eat high protein meals, you probably notice, I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, but for a lot of people, the protein is digested over four to five hours. So it just gives you this very steady blood sugar. I also was assuming that throughout the night, I was having big spikes, nothing. It's like, I just stay in this like 20 point range, low sixties up to 79 every day. So then when we were away this weekend, I got to test some fun things. I did test coffee, assumed that was spiking me, nope. It goes up by like five to 10 points. And I have a huge coffee in the morning. I make a latte like with unsweetened almond milk. And I know that that's not clean fasting, but right now it's what I'm doing and it's working fine for me. But I thought that that was spiking me for sure. And it isn't at all. So on the weekend, I got to test some, a little bit more unusual things. And I'm really curious as to your response on one of them. So I did have one crazy spike that I was like, oh my gosh, that must be a mistake because I've never seen one before. On Sunday morning, we were having brunch with our friends and the place we were at didn't have any like almond milk. They only had coconut milk. And so I assumed it was just the coconut milk that we have here, which is just plain coconut milk, no sugar added. So I had two coconut milk lattes and with my regular breakfast, which was an eggs bunny. And I had like a 60 point spike. Like it went from. Wow. Yeah, my blood sugar was like 60 something. And it went up to like 120. And then it came crashing back down. Surprisingly, it didn't go below 60. So you would think that it would have like a bad rebound effect and go below my starting level, but it just went back to where I was at. So at least that was okay. And the Nutrisense, I'm using the new Nutrisense CGM, of course, cause it's the best and their app. And it still gave me an okay score for that, but it wasn't great. And I realized that they were using this special like barista coconut milk, which was full of sugar. So for someone who never eats sugar, if you do suddenly have it, your body is going to react poorly to it. Because if I had been eating sugar on a regular basis or even eating high carb for a few days before that, it wouldn't have had such a high spike, but because my body never sees sugar, like it hasn't had sugar for years and years and years. It was like, whoa. It was like I did the oral glucose tolerance test or something. Like it was just a huge response. So I went and checked what they were serving after. And it was one of those, you know, cartons, the barista with like a, you know, usual amount of sugar, but very unusual for me. So that was why it spiked. And then I kept thinking throughout the day, what if it was the eggs Benedict? What if it was like the high fat, you know, because you hear that also that other side of the coin where fat can spike you. So the next day we went back to the same place and I had the same breakfast.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, without the coffee, without the coconut.
Vanessa Spina:
Without the coconut milk, I just had an element, chocolate with some regular milk. Actually, I had a whole milk that's really popular here. So they did have whole milk and I had that and no spike at all. So that was also a cool insight because I also assumed that regular milk would spike my blood glucose, but it didn't at all. And everything else was the same, in terms of activity levels and what I was doing. So it was definitely the coconut milk. And it wasn't a mistake, which is, because you can see in the app, you can see your blood glucose going measurements every 10 minutes, right? Even if you don't scan it, it's recording it. So you can go back and see, it wasn't just like an erroneous measurement. It was, that's what it was. So, because it tracks all the way up to that like 120, which I hit and then back down. So that was really interesting. And then the last one is the one I wanted to get some of your insight on. So a few times in the past two weeks, we've had events. So this weekend we had, we were away with friends. So a few opportunities where I was drinking Prosecco. And I always just assumed that Prosecco was spiking my blood glucose when I was having it. And it not only didn't, but all three of the times, a couple of the times I had two or three glasses, it made it go low, like way lower, like at one point on Sunday. So we had had breakfast early in the morning. We'd been walking around pretty actively all day. I had a glass of Prosecco and my blood sugar went down to like 50 something. And it was the same thing every time I had Prosecco. And I was like, I don't think it's actually that sugary, but definitely has alcohol in it. So I'm sure you know a lot about that, or at least you have your own experience in it. But yeah, that's been my experience so far. And it's been so insightful. I like you think everyone in the world should wear a CGM for at least a month. Cause like even a couple of weeks, I feel like I'm going to be wearing one for at least a couple months here to really get some good data. But also I'm very excited to see that all the work I've done to make my muscles and body so insulin sensitive means I can probably be eating way more carb than I do and be totally fine blood glucose wise because I'm so active and insulin sensitive. So that I think it's also something great for people to be able to assess on the other side of, okay, you've done great work now. Let's see what works well for your body by adding it back in and based on your lifestyle, what you can manage. And so it kind of gives you permission to go out and try a bunch of foods and test things and maybe incorporate some things that could be giving you some great phytonutrients, great fiber, but you were cutting out just cause you were assuming that they were spiking you like I was.
Melanie Avalon:
I love this so much. What did you find with the banana out of curiosity? It really didn't do my
Vanessa Spina:
at all. And same for the Chalk Zero marshmallows, except for yesterday. They did raise my blood glucose yesterday by about 15 points. And I think it's because we were in the car all day. And so I wasn't active. So there are definitely foods, even with my insulin sensitivity. And I'm not saying that that's bad, like 15 points is fine. What matters is that you recover from it, right? And that you don't go too high, you don't want too much variability. And you want to be able to recover from it. But it just goes to show how important activity is. Because if you are really sedentary, that's not a normal day for me being in a car for three hours driving, coming back from, you know, road trip. But I did do a bunch of body weight squats after did you see that new study about the body weight squats? No, what did it find? So I'm going to do it. I'm doing an episode on it this week on my podcast. But it's about how they did this study with a group of men where they were comparing blood glucose control after a meal with doing a 30 minute walk, or 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes. And the body weight squats fared better than the 30 minute walk, which for someone like me is like, heck yes, because I don't have time to go for a 30 minute walk after dinner. I have like, at this season in my life, but I definitely have time for 10 body weight squats. So I did that every 45 minutes. Like I think I did three sets before bed. And it definitely made me feel better about having, you know, more sedentary days.
Melanie Avalon:
That's a really great, like everybody should implement that. I'm going to start implementing that.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, everyone. And I feel like if you really do them mindfully and you really like, you can feel, you're really using your quads, you're really using your glutes, like you're really getting into it. Like I would do each one very intentionally, not just like kind of flippantly, but I think that could be something that could help so many people around the world to improve their blood glucose sensitivity because not everyone has time to go for a 30 minute walk after all of their meals, right? So yeah, it's absolutely massive.
Melanie Avalon:
That is amazing. I'm going to have to get that study from you for the show notes. Okay, so yes, thoughts. And one thing about, so the Chalk Zero marshmallows, I think I'd actually been looking at those recently on Amazon. So do they have any carbs? They do? They do, okay.
Vanessa Spina:
or something I had never heard before which is resistant dextrin which is like a corn I think it's corn sourced and then it's in a lot of like confectionary type foods and I don't it's not something that's in my diet regularly but I when we were in the US I wanted Luca to try roasting marshmallows so I found them online and then I really liked them so I brought a big pack back with us and then I kind of forgot about them and then at night I was like adding because there are mini marshmallows just adding them to an element chocolate or element chocolate caramel I cook it up with I heat it up with some unsweetened almond milk and then put some marshmallows on top and it's it's amazing so I was really curious what they what they did and totally fine on an active day but yeah one serving definitely has carbs in it it has some carbs in it so anywhere from like 10 to 20 grams
Melanie Avalon:
I really want to try, I haven't had foods like this in a while, but there have been times when I would do low carb and I would have low carb alternatives. So low sugar, low carb cake mixes or things like that. And eating them would taste so sweet. They would usually be sweetened with things like Stevia and Elulose and things like that. I want to try that while wearing a CGM and see what happens. Just that experience of having something that tastes so sweet that I know actually doesn't have sugar. I want to see what that would do to my blood sugar levels.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it hasn't been and right now, so I had some about an hour ago and my blood glucose right now is 69, so it did nothing, but today I did do a weights workout this afternoon, but otherwise I didn't do like 10 ,000 steps or anything. So most of the days it has had no effect at all.
Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy that you're you're resting ones are, you know, in the 60s like that. I do want to also clarify for listeners because some listeners might not have any idea about what is, you know, ranges to look for. So like 60s is very low.
Vanessa Spina:
It's amazing. It's definitely because I'm a keto person, remember that, yeah. For the first time, I don't eat barely any carbs at all.
Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. The alcohol piece, so I actually, I find that alcohol lowers my blood sugar and I think that's pretty consistent. So there's a lot of studies on wine and like blood sugar control and diabetes and stuff and it tends to correlate favorably, especially red wine to glycemic control. And one of the mechanisms might be that alcohol, so the main reason people's blood sugar is elevated is actually from the liver. Like that's the number one reason. It's not, I mean, it is the food you ate because it's the food going to the liver and then the liver releasing it. But the primary reason for high resting blood sugar levels is the liver creating glucose essentially and releasing it into the bloodstream, either releasing stored forms or creating its own. And so alcohol actually turns that off. Yeah, because the liver starts breaking down the alcohol instead. I thought it was related to the alcohol. Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
That's a great explanation.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Of course, a lot of people might be having sugary alcoholic drinks and then you're kind of canceling each other out, but if you're having dry wine, just straight alcoholic vodka or liquors without sugar, you're probably going to see a drop in your blood sugar levels. And I'm pretty sure I can look for some studies, but I'm pretty sure there are studies on having wine with meals and things like that and how it has a beneficial effect. So, I'm so excited that you got to try this and have this experience and I agree, like you said, I just feel like if everybody in the world did this just once, you know, like at least two weeks, ideally a month, I just think it would be a game changer in our metabolic health because you would like finally realize what is actually happening in your body when you fast, when you eat, when you exercise, and it's so interesting. I remember I was scared to wear one because I eat such a high carb, comma, fruit, high carbs from fruit diet. And like we're talking, I eat like pounds of fruit every night. I was really worried that that was just doing crazy things to my blood sugar levels and it's not. I mean, it's not like your results. It definitely does spike a lot higher, but it's all things I feel comfortable with. So it's so eye opening. It's also really, really interesting to test my berberine using a CGM. Do you have my berberine? Although, you know what? I mean, yours are so low. It's like you wouldn't even want to take it. But that I see like a huge, huge beneficial effect on my blood sugar levels as well.
Vanessa Spina:
What's your experience with using it?
Melanie Avalon:
It's basically what I, now what I expect to know, and I don't really, I haven't really like tested a lot of things, but basically the two things I test is either my normal diet of like, high protein, high fruit, low fat, or like the low carb, slightly higher fat, but still, still relatively low fat, still high protein though approach. And when I do that, I have significantly lower blood sugar levels than if I'm having the carbs, like the carb version, but I don't, so my spikes are probably, I'm usually, during the day, like the 80s, 90s, depending on when it is. I think that's like, that's just considered good, like great. I know if I were to do low carb or carnivore, it would be lower. I prefer my, the version of the diet that I'm in right now, that's interesting. It's kind of like, I don't know if it's a trade off per se, but I have a better cholesterol panel when I do the, and I know cholesterol panels are very debated, but I have much lower cholesterol levels, like significantly when I do the high carb, low fat, high protein approach, compared to the low carb, higher fat approach. So mine will spike, like typically with, and we're talking, this is like a massive, I eat so much fruit at night. I don't think people probably really grasp how much fruit I eat, it's a lot. So it'll usually spike up to the 120s, sometimes in the 130s, but it always comes back down by the morning. I also find doing my cryotherapy session, after I do that, it really starts going down. So basically like when I wake up is when it's the highest for the day, and by the highest, I don't mean like after eating, but the highest in the fasted state, and then it progressively goes down during the day, especially after that cryo session, which is interesting. I will say though, if you wear a CGM in the cryotherapy machine, you might get a false flag reading because it can make it, the cold can make the sensor freak out a little bit and it spikes, but it's the sensor. So yeah, and I'll go ahead and put out the link up out there for listeners. So they can get a Nutrisense CGM, go to nutrisense.com/Ifpodcast, and use the coupon code Ifpodcast that will get you $50 off a Nutrisense. I think they're like subscriptions. So I'm out of CGMs right now, they're gonna send us some new ones and I really wanna wear one. It's been a while since I worn one.
Vanessa Spina:
That was the last time you did it.
Melanie Avalon:
A few months ago, I think. OK, so pretty recent. Yeah, I'm trying to remember when. It was a few months ago. I want to do it now that I've been doing more low -carb days every week just to see. Oh, you can see the only days thing. Yeah, I mean, I still have the cucumbers and stuff, but I'm really curious doing those a few days a week. I'd like to see if that has a carryover effect to the other days. That's what I'm most interested in, I think. So what happens on the actual day, but then in general, would my levels be better?
Vanessa Spina:
I want to test so many things, like a protein spraying like modified fasting day would be fun to test. There's just so many things. I was really curious about the hummus, like I made homemade hummus. I sometimes have, usually like when we go to friends homes for parties and things, there's always like a hummus tray with cut up vegetables and carrots, peppers. Like I just really didn't eat that stuff for years. And I decided, you know, to try it, test it. And then I tested it and then I made it a few times with myself at home and nothing, like just barely any reaction at all. And again, those are on average days which are active. So for me, the biggest takeaway has been how important the activity is. And it's, you know, sometimes people think of it as like eating after a meal, but it's also before. If you're just having an active day in general, doesn't have to be every day, you know, but you're moving your body around. You're doing things, you know, that's what really, you know, gives you great glucose control, I think throughout the day. And then those 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes.
Melanie Avalon:
I know I'm gonna start doing that. Yeah, after I saw you know that
Vanessa Spina:
that, you know, we weren't that active yesterday. I was doing them in the kitchen and Luca's like, why are you doing that? I was like, oh, it's good for my body. And so he started doing them with me. Oh, cute. That's so cute. I was like, how many can you do? And then we were counting and, you know, doing them together. And, you know, and then we had our algae together, we had our spirulina together, I think I told you he calls it the medicine.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love it.
Vanessa Spina:
that. And yeah, I was like, you know, he's doing squats and takes your Alina with me. Like, I felt like those are a couple of wins. So it's really exciting. And I think for anyone out there who's interested in learning about their bodies and their health, you know, what's amazing with the Nutrisense app is you also get a nutritionist who do video calls with you. You not only can score all your meals and sort of get this score out of 100, but there's ongoing support with a nutritionist who will answer any questions that you have as well. So I think they really provide great value with that.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that was one of the things I really loved because I tried a lot of different CGM platforms and their support was really amazing and I'm I did it with a friend as well and she said the same thing like she loves chatting with them and it's it's just really, really helpful. I'm curious did Luca like roasting marshmallows?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he really liked it. He liked it a little too much. No, I'm kidding. No, it's because I want the marshmallows. Like I only have a limited amount because I brought these back from the US. You know, I'm happy to share and give him some and he wants like all of them. So I'm like, Luca, this is a treat for mommy. You have lots of treats and snacks. This is mommy's and you know, I can only get it by flying to the US. Bring it back here. So unfortunately, I don't have anything like that over here. But yeah, when it's done, it'll be done. And, and that's fine. I'll have it next time I go back. But it's a nice little, it's a fun treat. But yeah, he loves marshmallows.
Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever made homemade mar-
Vanessa Spina:
I haven't like I know it's I've heard people make it all the time and it's not that hard Maybe I should make some you could do it with Luca. Yeah, he then then he could have as many as you want
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that'd be so... Have I, you said? I have not. I think I've tried to make... I think I did try once. I feel like it didn't work out that well. I might revisit that. I'm pretty sure I tried to make it, yeah, with... That's when I was ordering that... What was it, Great Lakes or whatever? That ever? That gelatin?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I should make a recipe. My new college for marshmallows and, and I'll be making them. And, and that will be.
Melanie Avalon:
Make that your email grab on your website like, you know, sign up here to get my the college and marshmallow recipe. Yes, I'm gonna do that. Oh my goodness, I'm having so many flashbacks. I was the reason I was looking at the Chalk Zero marshmallows. I was randomly craving marshmallows the other day. Sorry, you were craving them? And I was like, I want to order some marshmallows. Did you try the Chalk Zero ones? No, I need to order some. I was looking at all the different brands because there's all these all these different brands on Amazon that are, you know, sugar free marshmallows.
Vanessa Spina:
These ones taste exactly like regular ones.
Melanie Avalon:
really there's no difference oh okay i want to i want to order some and they melt like normal marshmallows and everything exactly the same okay i remember um last time i had a colonoscopy lovely i know i've had way too many colonoscopies last time i had one i was looking at what you could you know have before and you actually can make jello because you could have clear jello or like certain colors of jello but not other colors and i remember i was like i'm gonna make i was like i'm gonna make this a whole thing i'm gonna make and i ordered i ordered everything like i ordered like the like little gummy bear molds molds yeah like gummy bear molds and like this watermelon flavor and like gelatin and then when it came time to do it i was like this is i'm not complicated
Vanessa Spina:
I make them with Luca, the bears. We have like, gummy bears and he's like, I want to make the bears. So make chocolate ones or Oh, chocolate jello? No, just like, like, I'll make a keto chocolate, but I'll use the teddy bear molds. Oh, okay. Yeah. But it's great to make, you know, collagen gummies to
Melanie Avalon:
And have you made gummies or no? Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
I've made, I've made those a bunch of times because it's a fun, they're healthy, low sugar. I just put Stevia in them and then it's a great treat for him and for me, but it's a great, like it's a candy for him. It looks like a candy. And then the other thing we made the other day, which was really fun was I made popsicles of element. Oh, how are those? And they're really fun because they got these cool like ice pop molds. They have different shapes, like a penguin and a whale and all this stuff. So like on a hot day, we've been making those in the morning. And I did with the watermelon element, I put the recipe on my reels and Luca helped me make them. And it was really fun. And it was great. We actually put frozen raspberries like at the bottom of the popsicles and then filled it with the raspberry element and water. And so they were like these fruit, like fruity popsicles with raspberries inside them and the element. So I called them like the hydrating popsicles so you can get hydrated while you're having delicious element and Luca loves those. So we'll probably be having a bunch this weekend too. And it's great because they're not messy, you know, like with kids, just like everything is melting, but it's really just water that's melting. So it's fine.
Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. For listeners, if they'd like to try element, they can go to drink L M N T dot com slash Ifpodcast. They make amazing electrolyte supplement, well packets. And then now they have sparkling. Have you, have you seen the sparkling drinks they have?
Vanessa Spina:
I haven't gotten to try them yet because I don't think they can ship them here, but I'm loving, I love the idea. I was really surprised actually when I saw it.
Melanie Avalon:
kind of like a soda, you know, because it's like a sparkling drink, but it's the element and they have a watermelon. I haven't tried it yet. I have it here. I haven't tried them. But yeah, so that's, that's super exciting. I have another thought about that. Oh, I'm curious, since you were like international growing up, did you have the experience of the ice cream truck man?
Vanessa Spina:
was that a thing oh yeah I mean not in China but when we were in Canada in the summer yes
Melanie Avalon:
Ice cream truck yeah like hearing this I just remember like the moment when you're like a kid you hear the sound and it's like oh no am I gonna make it in time and you're like running and then like if you miss you have to like run after them.
Vanessa Spina:
Eddie Murphy has a great fit on that ice cream ice cream that is coming and then he like you know all the kids run to get money and
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's why I was thinking my head I was in my head. I was like, wait a minute. Why did it take so long? Oh, right. You have to go get the money. Yes. There's a lot you have to accomplish
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he does this like dance that the kids do once they get their ice creamed, like I got my ice cream and got my ice cream, it's a really good, it's a really good.
Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I like feel the cortisol spike though of like, it's like the ultimate moment of like, this must be accomplished really fast and like go. Did they steal noodles? Yeah. Yeah. I see them around and I get flashbacks. Oh, that's fun. So I remember I would always get the cartoon. My favorite was the Bugs Bunny with the gumball eyes.
Vanessa Spina:
I like the rocket one that's like red, white.
Melanie Avalon:
in blue. Oh, man, good times. There was something about those. Did they have the cartoon, the cartoon ice cream ones that you're in Canada? I think so. There was something about that texture that was just so unique. Mm hmm. Like what is it? I don't even know. It's amazing. It probably was an indexron. Probably. Oh, man.
Vanessa Spina:
When I was reading up about it last night, it said it's used in a lot of like confectionary types of foods.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah. It's kind of like the rumor that like there are some things that like don't melt like McDonald's ice cream or something. It takes a really long time to melt. Yes. So in any case, CGMs. I highly, highly recommend them for, you know, finding the foods that work for you and really seeing, you know, how your fast affects you. And I'm glad that you talked so much about the role that physical activity plays, because I really think that's really underappreciated for the effects that it has on our blood sugar levels. Like I just think it is so, so important and has a huge impact. And it's something that's really hard to understand unless you're seeing it in real time, you know, on a continuous glucose monitor.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I agree and I was not expecting that to be my main takeaway, you know what I mean?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Do you experience the dawn effect at all?
Vanessa Spina:
No, I was going to ask you about that because I know you said that you did that you do and I was expecting it. I was expecting there to be some kind of rise, but most nights or mornings, like it's pretty steady throughout the night, like pretty much the same range as during the day, but a little lower because I'm not moving or being active. And then it's just a very gradual rise throughout the morning and then I have coffee and it goes up like five points, maybe 10 points, but no.
Melanie Avalon:
nothing big. Now I really want to test. I want to see if I either don't or if I get a blunted effect when I do my mostly meat days.
Vanessa Spina:
I think I need more data, so I want to touch back on that, like circle back on that, because I know there's a few days of calibration, you know, the CGM is kind of, I want more data before I say like, really what's been going on, but that's so far, I just haven't really seen much, much of one, but I know, yeah, there's so much interpersonal variability when it comes to that.
Melanie Avalon:
So the Dawn Effect, it's basically this quote, natural rise in blood sugar that people will often see in the early hours of the morning. And it's basically a circadian based dumping of the liver, of blood sugar into the system and people will see a spike even though they didn't eat anything. And I definitely do see that spike and also probably involves cortisol as well, I think. So again, to listeners, they can go to nutrisense.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. Okay, anything else about the CGM? I think we covered it. Awesome. Yeah, I thought we could leave because there was two more comments. Last week, I was reading people's experiences about the different types of intermittent fasting that they practice and we had two more that I hadn't read. So I was just going to read those really quickly. So I don't think we actually like give our thoughts on all the different answers. But if listeners would like to go back to last week, they can hear all these different approaches that people are trying with intermittent fasting. Two last ones we had. One was from Jen. She said, I'm in the process of adjusting mine now. My husband and I work different schedules and are not always hungry at the same time. But I struggle with not having my coffee upon waking, not because I need it, because I enjoy it. It's a pure want. Ideally, I can overcome this strong desire and hold out because I'd like to transition to an eating window of 1 to 7 p .m. How much coffee do you drink, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
day. So I just have one in the morning usually a latte. I make two shots of espresso. It's like around 150 milligrams and I put a couple of cups of unsweetened almond milk in it. And that's it usually for the day unless it's like the weekend and I go for brunch with friends and then I usually have a couple in the morning.
Melanie Avalon:
And you said you did not see an effect, right, on your blood sugar from the coffee?
Vanessa Spina:
There is one, but it's about, I would say like five to 10 points. It's not, I wouldn't consider that a spike. I would just consider that like a normal response.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Vanessa Spina:
and it's very stable after.
Melanie Avalon:
That's yeah, that's so I wonder if man I feel like if I were to have coffee Because I just have a I just have a little tiny sip every morning of my danger coffee, which is my favorite You can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash danger and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount on that If I were to have like an actual cup of coffee, I bet my I'd be so curious, but I bet my blood sugar would probably Shoot way high I think
Vanessa Spina:
One way for you to test and for us to see because there are so many things that I thought I just assumed were spiking me that have not been and I love how we had that one episode we did just on coffee and we talked about all the research showing that it actually is great for you in the morning, great for cortisol. I love that episode but I love to hear what happens when you test it.
Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. I feel like I'll research whenever I research coffee. It's the opposite of most people So like a lot of people are like trying to wean off coffee. I Like I said, I just have a few steps every morning. But when I research coffee, I'm like, man, I maybe I should be more Maybe I should be drinking more coffee. It just seems like it does have so many health benefits Pretty consistently if you're not, you know going crazy with it The reason I love danger coffee is it it's Dave Asprey's new ish coffee after bulletproof And it's remineralized and it's mold free and it tastes just so delicious. I just love it I love giving it as gifts as well But yeah The reason I I would be really curious like you said to test the reason I feel like it would Jump really high is I just feel like it would give me such an adrenaline boost and probably a cortisol spike and I just Feel like my liver would dump all this, you know put out this glucose But who knows it would be a hard experiment to do because if I were to have a huge I don't know how I don't know how I would sleep that night if I had like a huge Amount it's so very interesting. Is that why you only have a sip? Yeah, I think it's because historically, you know, I struggled a lot with insomnia and sleep issues and always felt like I would be on the coffee caffeine roller coaster and When I cut it out completely it's like oh I actually don't I actually don't Need it, but I love having like it feels just like a little like Ritual and a hermetic stress in a way like just having this, you know a few sips in the morning I really like having it. It wasn't the case of where like with wine where I cut that out completely I was like, no, I I definitely feel better having like my nightly wine. But with coffee, I was like, oh I I don't I Don't see myself needing that much more but and then the nice thing is you have it in your back pocket so when you're not drinking coffee regularly if you ever do have a day where you have to We're completely sleep deprived and you need energy all you have to do is like have a cup of coffee and you're like you can like climb Mount Everest, so It's nice to like have it in your back pocket My only recent memory of doing that was when I got up early for the Taylor Swift tickets and then Had to be awake for six hours and the Ticketmaster queue coffee was helpful for that One more comment for the fasting. So Nina said I was doing intermittent fasting but then I read some info about skipping breakfast being bad for you, so now I just eat whenever and Fast for three days every month I've done seven days once and a seven -day juice fast prior to that not sure if it's doing anything But I definitely feel more energy and focus during a fast and my blood sugar and a1c are always good Trying to increase white blood cells and improve immunity without success so far Okay, so this comment So basically Nina's experience was she was doing intermittent fasting Then she read skipping breakfast was bad So she stopped fasting, but she does fast for three days I feel like this is an example where It's something there's this idea out there that you know skipping breakfast is bad and I I just feel like it's and we've talked about it a lot in previous shows, but I feel like it's based on a lot of misleading information and Maybe in an ideal world if you were completely controlled maybe eating Earlier in the day would be better than eating later in the day, but when you look at the overall Like lifestyle and like what is the fasting habit that you can stick to and if you enjoy skipping breakfast I feel like a lot of that data and again, we've talked about it in prior episodes So maybe we can put links to it, but I think it's very misleading. It is okay to skip breakfast I think I just get sad hearing people who like so it's not like she um, you know, it's not like she just changed her fasting window She just stopped fasting because she heard that Although she does fast for three days every month. Yeah. Do you have thoughts about that Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely think that this is a belief that is circulating right now because there have been a lot of people talking about leptin and leptin resistance. So if someone is having issues with their leptin, leptin levels being too high, just like with insulin resistance, your insulin levels are too high, then having breakfast within an hour of waking a high protein breakfast can be really helpful for that. But if you don't have leptin resistance, then it's not an issue. So if you want to check, you can have your leptin tested. The optimal range for leptin is between five to 10. So if your leptin is really, really high, it could be an indicator if you're way out of range on that, that your brain is not receiving the leptin signal, which is giving you symptoms like you're always hungry. If you're not getting that signal that you've consumed food, leptin is released after you consume food to basically signal to stop eating. And some people develop a resistance to that signal. So this is only for people who have leptin resistance. For everyone else, it's not necessary for any other kind of benefit. I think there are some benefits to eating earlier, like you said, but there's also benefits to skipping breakfast. I think they kind of even out in the end, it just comes down to what you prefer and what suits you best. Like most days I skip breakfast, but like this weekend, we're away with friends. We were all having, you know, Mother's Day branch and stuff together. Like I definitely had breakfast, fully enjoyed it. Felt great all day, you know, but most of the time I don't have time to make breakfast in it for myself. It works better. So it really comes under personal preference. And if you don't have a leptin issue, I don't think you should be concerned with that. So I think it is going around a lot right now because it has to do with circadian health. It's known as a zeitgeiber, you know, you're helping your body's peripheral clocks and organ clocks, you know, sync up with the light. But you can also do that by getting natural light on your body, getting morning light on your body, going for a walk outside in the morning or doing some grounding, or even just stepping outside for a little bit, getting some morning light that initiates a lot of those hormonal cascades. And it's an even more powerful signaler or zeitgeiber than food is. So I don't think anyone should be concerned about skipping breakfast. And even Dr. Don Lehman, who I constantly invoke, he skips breakfast, he has like a mid -morning meal. So like around, I think he says he has his first meal around 10 or 11. He considers, you know, first meal of the day is your break fast. It doesn't matter.
Melanie Avalon:
if you have it earlier or later. I could not agree more. Yeah, and I think just so many studies, like looking at that word break fast, like you said, a lot of the studies don't take into account, especially studies that are looking at later eating versus earlier eating, they're not looking at it in a fasting pattern. So they're not taking into account that, yes, for most people, if you've been eating throughout the day, of course you're gonna have poor glycemic control later in the day because you've been eating all day. So you've been like taxing that system. But if you're break fast, if you don't start eating until later in the day, you're much more primed and insulin sensitive than if you had been eating earlier. So I think that's something really important to keep in mind with a lot of the data about eating earlier versus eating later. I get sad to think some people hear this idea and then they think that they just can't fast then. But I'm really glad that you talked about the leptin thing. That's a really good thing to point out. So thank you for that. Yeah, but it was really exciting to read all of the people's different approaches to the fasting. And I feel like the takeaway for me is that there's so many different approaches and clearly so many different things work for different people. So definitely work to find the fasting window that works for you and also know that you can change it. You can also not change it. I think there's sometimes pressure that people feel like they have to change things up. But if something's working for you, keep on keeping on, I think, in my opinion. Yeah, any other thoughts about that?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think, I mean, the only other situation that just came to mind is, you know, someone who is very undermuscled or has lost a lot of muscle if they've been on bed rest or something. That could be a situation where you want to make sure to stop muscle protein breakdown as early in the day as possible. You know, someone who's like frail, elderly, really undermuscled, breakfast would be probably a good option. But again, it's really like very specialized circumstances, I think, where you're getting more benefit than not, especially if it's something that you like doing. A lot of people who skip breakfast do it because it aligns with how they feel in the morning. And I know you've talked about also and written about how hormonally we're kind of primed to eat later in the day than we are first thing in the day.
Melanie Avalon:
So I definitely think we are. So like the moment I did a blog post on this, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called, I should probably retitle it to something more search friendly, but it's called early versus late night eating, contradictions, confusions, and clarity. I went through and looked at like the actual hormonal profiles of what happens for most people at different times of the day. And like right upon awakening, it's not really any of the hormones conducive to eating. Like it just from a hormonal standpoint does not, to me, seem to make sense to be eating. Like your cortisol is going up higher. So basically, the hormone is associated with eating. So like higher ghrelin, lower leptin, changes in adrenaline and cortisol and all these things are shifted a little bit later in the day. They're not right upon awakening, even adiponectin aligns accordingly. So I personally don't think that we're meant to wake up and eat right away. Because historically, as an evolutionary perspective, you'd wake up and it'd be like, time to go find the food. So your body is primed to give you endogenous energy, energy that you already have inside of you to go find the food. It's not like we would wake up to a buffet breakfast. That was not the situation happening, at least not on this planet. So any other thoughts? Yeah, I think that covers it pretty well. Awesome. Awesome. So a few things for listeners before we go. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode375. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And there will be links to everything that we talked about, including element and Nutrisense. Again, if you would like your own continuous glucose monitor, which I don't think we actually said, I know we said it's like a sensor that you put on your arm, but I will say that they're very easy to apply. They can look intimidating. They're not you just like stick it on, you don't even feel it. I remember being so shocked the first time I put it on how much you don't feel it when you're putting it on. And it measures the interstitial fluid constantly to provide that look at your blood sugar levels. So the link for that is Nutrisense.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?
Vanessa Spina:
I had a wonderful time and just want to thank everyone for the great comments. I love hearing them and going through them with you and it was so much fun to chat all about CGM so I'm excited to circle back in the future when you do your next round and I do you know several more weeks as well we can chat more about some more insights.
Melanie Avalon:
I know that'll be really exciting. I'm really looking forward to it.
Vanessa Spina:
It would be fun to ask in the group you know what were people's biggest or takeaways from their CGM experience.
Melanie Avalon:
I'll post that today, that's perfect. Good idea. Awesome. Well, have a wonderful evening and I will talk to you next week. All right, sounds great. Bye. Talk to you then, bye -bye.
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
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The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
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