Episode 368: Collagen, Natural Skincare, Defining Your Diet, Red Light Facials, Fasting Mistakes, Hormetic Stresses, High Protein, And More!
Welcome to Episode 368 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
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SHOW NOTES
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Listener Q&A: Julie - Red Light Therapy for Face
Listener Q&A: What was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting?
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TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 347 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 368 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing awesome. How are you? I am good. I feel like I'm still in the waiting period of so many things that are just coming, although by the time this comes out, maybe some of them will be out. I don't know, the spirulina, the third podcast, which I just need to bite the bullet and launch it. We have seven episodes recorded, so. Wow, good for you. Thank you. I'm excited about it. And then my super secret project. How about you? Are you doing any product development right now?
Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, I was actually I made a reel today on Instagram about my red light mask and I had so much fun doing it because it's like it's this thing it's like me trying to do me trying to fill all of my needs in the one hour after my kids go to bed and I've got like my red light mask on I'm lifting weights and I'm like having a protein shake and I'm watching a show at the same time and like are you watching
Melanie Avalon:
Watching love is blind. Yes. I feel like when you say that, is that part of some, is that part of that moment?
Vanessa Spina:
It's like, yeah, I'm like catching up on all the things in that one hour, you know, and it's what's cool is like, the point of it is that the red, the red light mask is hands free. And I genuinely, it genuinely frees me up to be able to do things like that. But I don't actually like work out wearing my red light mask. I'm usually staying on the couch or something like that. But I was just thinking today, just after dinner before we started recording those, like, I don't have actually any product, like, really any new products that I'm like, think that I'm going to make in terms of wellness devices. But we are working on Scott and I are working on the collagen, which I'm excited to be launching next, which is, oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's this really cool collagen that has a lot of scientific research behind it showing that it actually does help boost the collagen and elastin in the skin. And I'm really excited because I feel like I've been on this like skin health journey like in the last year. I kind of felt like I didn't do enough when I was like in my 20s when I was younger and like, it sort of was catching up with me. And I feel like I've been able to actually like really make huge progress. So, like, really getting my skincare routine down and like, learning about skincare and making sure like I'm using, you know, toner and serum like in the morning and night, which I wasn't for so many years, like I really thought you only needed moisturizer. And doing the red light therapy, like the panels and doing the mask and like the mask doing that every week and being really consistent with it, which I think is key to red light. And then finding collagen really actually has science behind it, like all these different things have been coming together. And I've been getting so many compliments lately on my skin. And it is putting me in the best, best mood, because like, I've always had like decent skin, but I, you know, no matter what, like, you can't hide the fact that like your, your skin is going to be affected by the things you do, like I spend a ton of time in the sun, like, I'm outside a lot, like I, you know, probably don't do all the things that, that I should have been doing all the time, you know, like wearing a big hat, like, hiding from the sun, all these years, etc. But I feel like I've made some like really big progress. And just, you know, when you're doing something, like, whether it's like you're on a fitness journey, or someone says, well, wow, like your arms look really fit, or like someone just notices whatever that you're doing, that's when it kind of becomes like real, you know, oh, yes, yeah, it's like someone says, like, yeah, just like my husband and some girlfriends recently just been like, you have amazing skin. And I'm like, wow, like, thank you. Because I didn't definitely didn't feel like that a year ago. And now I feel like it's, it's actually working. So I'm excited about that.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Okay. So many things. So many things. I completely, okay. Because you gave me your tone device, which I love. And you also sent me the mask and Vanessa, I feel so bad.
Vanessa Spina:
I can't save the rest!
Melanie Avalon:
You did. Yes. And I feel so bad because so I have this like section of my apartment where I put all the, all the products that come, they come in all the time. I'd put it under some things and I completely, I could just completely forgot. So like very recently, a few days ago, I was like, oh my goodness. Like, like jackpot. I've got to try it soon. Um, so it's so great that we're we're talking about this and we have a question about it. So I'll read that in a little bit to comment more on the skin stuff. I as well had that epiphany moment where, I mean, I went through a period of time where I was literally just using coconut oil, like to take off my makeup and then as a moisturizer, that was it. And then I was kind of doing like nothing. And then I like fell into the beauty counter world. It's funny. I was more excited about it for other people because I wasn't personally really using that many skincare products, but I was really passionate about the mission of finding endocrine disruptor free skincare makeup and like providing that need to people. And I liked their makeup, which I was using, but then the more I like learned about that and the more I heard people just like freaking out in a good way about the products, I was like, Oh, I got to like try some of these. And that's when I started realizing how much skincare products can like change your skin. So I think one of the biggest effects I see on my skin, have seen on my skin diet wise is and not to say that, okay, because you clearly are like experiencing the skin glow and it's amazing. So it's probably just the version of keto that I was doing. But when I switched from doing a keto diet to like a really high fruit diet, one of the reasons I stuck with that was it just made my skin glow like the fruit just like just does something magical. A lot of berries. So like, yeah. And I've gone through like pineapple, shwills, it's basically berries and used to be pineapple.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, there's a lot of antioxidants in the berries, right?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. But I remember I had like this validating moment, like you were talking about. I'd gone from like fruit, then I went back to keto. And then I went back to fruit one night and I went to the grocery store the next day. And literally the next day, like a woman walked up to me at the self checkout and was like, your skin is glowing. What do you do? Like such a timing moment because I just switched to fruit the night before. And I was like, I eat lots of fruit. And that was it. But then again, like the context of if you're eating lots of fruit and the context of, you know, like a high fat diet, I do not think would be a good thing, you know.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. Yeah. I don't eat that much fat anymore these days. Like to me, keto is like more burning the fat on your body. Like in a way, like being fat fueled, being able to tap into it, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be eating tons of that.
Melanie Avalon:
Could not agree more there needs to be a name for that. Yeah, that's not some crazy tangent Like that's not PSMF and that's not you know, let's come up with it right now
Vanessa Spina:
You know, when I think about like, I've been thinking about this actually this week, and I've thought about it a lot in like prior months as well, that I'm like, when people think of like, say someone is new to me, and they're like, Oh, she does keto, like, whatever they think I'm doing is probably nothing like what I'm actually doing, which people who like listen to my podcast, like follow what I do for a long time, no, it's like a high protein diet, with, you know, some healthy fats that are in the food, like when I have salmon, there's like healthy fats in that, etc. But I'm like fat fueled, and I'm tapping into my body fat, my ability to be fat fueled because I don't eat 300 grams of carbon a. So but I'm also like not eating no carb, you know, and I feel like we do somewhat similar, like I know it's not, I think our diets are more similar than they're not. So like, and I've also thought about like, is it? It's not protein spraying modified fasting, I don't do that every day. It's like unlimited high protein with like nutrient dense, low carb, berries and low glycemic foods, like lots of berries, lots of like nutrient dense vegetables that are also low glycemic, like low glycemic, high protein, but it's not paleo. Because I don't eat all the dates and like the sugar. Wait, why is it not paleo though? Well, I do lots of dairy. And I think paleo is not so much dairy. And I don't do any of the like dates and the nap like the fruit sugars like my impression of paleo is that you can have, you know, quite a bit of like sugary fruits, you know, the date bars and things like that.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, you feel like you don't have to, but you can. And the dairy is like a maybe, you know, kind of depends. I've thought about this though, like this exact question, because a lot of the manifestation that I would do when I wasn't doing the fruit was just like tons of high lean protein and low carb, but I wasn't adding fat really. So the closest thing felt like PSMF, but I'm like, it's not PSMF because I'm not doing like the severely calorie restricted thing. We need a word for it.
Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Ted Naaman, I think like his like PE diet is probably the closest to what I do, but it's like I don't like calling it the PE diet, like it just doesn't, see he calls it like PE diet because it's protein to energy diet and I remember talking to him and I was like actually he kind of calls it the low energy diet because it's not a lot of energy calories but it's not an appealing name right because it makes it sound like you have low energy whereas the opposite, like I have a lot of energy but yeah he calls it P to E as in like the ratio of protein to energy but that's like too complicated although some people know of it like the PE diet like okay that's what Dr. Ted Naaman recommends although he is doing something a little bit different now with like the app and stuff that he's working with diet doctor.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, he is? What is he doing now?
Vanessa Spina:
They just launched this new like sort of app or platform and it has to do with like nutrient optimization and something called, is it the satiety factor or something? I interviewed him about it last year, like at the end of last year and it's on the tip of my tongue, but like I seriously, I'm in such a like mom brain fog. Like if we had recorded before I had dinner, maybe it would have been sharper, but they've been talking a lot about it on Twitter satiety per calorie. That's what it is satiety per calorie. This is like his new thing satiety per calorie. So maybe that's what he's been playing around with the name himself, but his whole like principle is eating to satiety, which is like high protein and then like he goes a little bit more high fiber, but everything is just like low carb, lots of lean protein. And lots of low carb, low glycemic, like so you could almost call it Mediterranean diet. But then again, they do eat like that, but then they put a lot of like olive oil on everything and they have grains. Yeah, there's grains too. So it's like there's a name missing. Maybe we'll come up with the next next name because it's it doesn't fully fit in paleo. It doesn't fully fit in keto. It doesn't fit in like Mediterranean to me. Like I call it high protein keto because there's like no sugar and I don't eat grains. So yeah, it's hard. It's like but I just know that calling a keto definitely is not like really appropriate. Although high protein keto maybe is closer because when people think keto, they think like you're eating high fat and that high protein, I tend to call it high protein modified keto because that's like the closest thing I've been able to find to it. But a lot of people don't realize that you don't have to be eating all the fat to be fat fueled or to be in that, you know, state of ketosis.
Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, I thought about this so much as well. And I always just use a lot of modifiers. I'm like, I do high protein, low fat, paleo, or I do high protein, high carb, low fat, paleo. That's what I normally say. Cause normally I'm existing in that high fruit world, but sometimes I normally say that I do high protein, low fat, high carb, paleo with fruit.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, see, it makes sense, but it's so complicated, right?
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like so many it's complicated. It's like those magnets where there's all those words on the magnet thing you like
Vanessa Spina:
I thought you were doing like before, maybe it's a little bit different now, or maybe you just change it up, but before you were doing a lot of like high protein, like lots of scallops and lots of other lean protein at night and like lots of blueberries and cucumbers, like is that, are you doing something different or is it still similar?
Melanie Avalon:
Yep, I'm still doing that. I did actually, every now and then I have, I don't know what it is, but every now and then I just have this really intense meat craving because normally I'm eating lots of fish and scallops like you said. Oh, the scallops. But every now and then I'm like, I just have meat craving and I'll just have a carnivore night and I'll just, but it's all lean and I literally would just go crazy and just eat lean meat like pounds and pounds and it's so fun.
Vanessa Spina:
I know you have those nights and I feel like if you ever make it to Prague, we'll go have like beef tartare because like they have the best.
Melanie Avalon:
The best. I love it. I need to go to like a Brazilian steakhouse sometime.
Vanessa Spina:
We do that or we have in the past like four or five years, like once a year, we'll go. There's a really good one here. It's called Brasileiro. I took my parents and they had never been before and like they still talk about how much they loved it. Like, because it's such a fun concept, right? Like you, you know, you have your like red, like green art on the table. And the one that we go to here has like a really nice buffet of like sushi, like a lot of sashimi and salads. And then you can have that. And then they bring also like all the cuts of meat. And it's like, it's just such a fun night. It's really, it's such a funny dining experience.
Melanie Avalon:
I need to go. Mm. Yeah. Thinking about it now. I have for like a long time ago, back when I lived in Memphis. So it's been a really, really long time in Memphis. They had Texas state Brazil, and then here they have Fogo de Ciao. There's one literally right next to me. So I have no excuse. That's the one I always hear about in the US. Yeah, I need to go. Oh, now I want to go. I think I'm gonna, I think I'm just gonna go. Can I just like go by myself? Just like pick out one night? I could go with people as well. Yeah, we should come up with a word for it though, because I've been thinking about that for a long time that there's not, not really a word for it.
Vanessa Spina:
And I'm sure a lot of our listeners also feel like there's no representation.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so listeners who have suggestions for what to call this, although it's interesting because like my version, because I sometimes do the version that's more like you and then I sometimes do the version with the fruit. So I feel like those are actually a little bit of two different things. What's the version with the fruit? Because I normally am doing like high carb fruit and not high carb fruit. It's low carb fruit, but it's high carb comma, high carb parentheses fruit.
Vanessa Spina:
Did you just have a moment when you're like listening to the podcast as one of our listeners? Mm -hmm. Yep.
Melanie Avalon:
Like we need some punctuation there to explain.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness.
Melanie Avalon:
So on that point, on that note, but for really, so for the high carb parenthesis fruit, like that's different than the high protein without the high carb parenthesis fruit. You do high protein, low carb fruit, some low carb fruit.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah so like pretty much every day I have like a high protein dinner and then after dinner I make a protein shake which has a cup of frozen berries in it and then I also have some dried freeze dried strawberries with yogurt so it's like strawberries blueberries raspberries blackberries like the berries the berry family which are actually keto approved but I never really ate them when I was doing like traditional like strict keto I just like avoided most fruit because I could get carried away with like carbs so easily but doing high protein I don't really I don't really add much fat to my foods I just eat the fat that's in foods like I was saying the fat that's in the steak or in the ribeye or in that comes with the eggs or whatever so I add I do add some fruit and especially when I've worked out that day I feel like I want more fruit but fruit for me is a berries like I don't really eat like avocado is kind of a berry is a fruit too not a berry a fruit but I don't really eat any other fruit other than that
Melanie Avalon:
So, yeah, I eat the similar fruit, but I just eat massive quantities. I'm like a fruititarian, except not with protein. That sounds awesome. It's so great. Yeah, I just love the fruit. You have pineapples, too, and berries? I did. Well, I went through a pineapple phase, and I would love to get back to the pineapple phase. Like, whenever I try to bring it back, it feels too sweet now. I don't know if I like... I don't know. I want to ease myself back in, because it's so anti -inflammatory, the pineapple, like crazy with the bromelain. What is it about the pineapple? The bromelain enzyme in it, which you can actually take as a supplement, but kind of like my seropeptase supplement, where it's an enzyme that breaks down protein, so the bromelain does that. And when I was eating tons of pineapple, we're talking entire pineapples every night, the inflammation reduction was just crazy. Wow, that's super interesting. Yeah, so we should come up with a word. Going back to the skin, we actually... I have a question. Can I read it to you about your mask? Yes, I would love it. So this is from Julie. The subject was red light therapy for face, and she said, Hello, ladies. Vanessa, I have a question for you concerning a red light therapy mask for the face. Unfortunately, I do not have your brand mask. Tone Lux. She says, but she's on her second one at home. She says, The first brand I used said to clean the skin, then apply a hyaluronic acid before using the mask. The second brand of masks that I am currently using says to wash your face and have nothing on the skin while wearing the mask, and then apply the hyaluronic acid after the red light therapy treatment. What do you recommend? Thanks.
Vanessa Spina:
I'll tell you what I personally do. I don't put anything on my face because I don't want anything to interfere with the red light wavelengths hitting the surface of the skin and also penetrating more deeply into the dermis layers. But I have also seen this. I have also seen other companies recommending that you can add serums and then use the red light at the same time. It's not something that I have ever personally tried, but I have seen it recommended and I think there could be some potential to it. I tried to look up some research on this and I didn't find anything specifically with hyaluronic acid and doing red light therapy. All the research that I relied on is you want to make sure that your face is clean. Definitely no SPF, no moisturizer, nothing like that could provide a barrier. So I think it would depend on the kind that you're using because you wouldn't want something that has an ingredient in it that's going to in any way block the red light wavelengths, if that makes sense. So I think as a general rule, like I would personally recommend just having bare skin. But if you have a mask or they recommend like some masks will say like use our serum with it. That serum probably, if the company has done their research and I'm going to assume that they have, wouldn't have any compounds or any, you know, ingredients in it that would block the red light. But I think like as a safe bet, just don't have anything. Just have like your raw skin, no makeup, just like fresh face. And you know, what's great about doing the skin and the face is that when you are looking to improve the health of your skin, you want the appearance of your skin, which is the outer part of your skin. Of course, you also want the wavelengths to penetrate more deeply. But in general, like you don't have to be all that close to the light, you can be, you know, about like anywhere from four to six inches away. And you only need like four minutes, like with a red light therapy panel that has a good amount of strength to it. When I wear the mask, I usually do 15 to 25 minutes. And that's using my mask, which is the Tomux crystal mask. So what's great about it is it is hands free though. So it's not like you have to sit in front of a panel for 15 to 25 minutes, you can just strap it onto your face. And you know, you can do other things if you want to, you can watch a show, you can read a book, I like do sticker books with my son Luca, in the morning when I'm doing mine. And like, it was a game changer for me to get the mask seriously, because with the panels, it was great until I had kids. And then it's like, my morning I'm spending with Luca, or I'm spending with Damien or both of them. And, you know, it's not that often that I have like, you know, 20 extra minutes after doing whatever, you know, taking a shower, whatever to do red light. So I do get to get it in here and there on the body. But I with the mask, I'm able to maintain that routine. And like I was saying earlier, the key really is consistency. So doing it, you know, four to five times a week, and doing that for at least like eight to 12 weeks. And then after that, you can probably get away with doing one to, you know, one or two times a week for maintenance. You know, having the mask is really great for that.
Melanie Avalon:
No, that's super helpful. It's funny thinking about, I have like a visceral response to, I cannot handle, I'm going to come up with so strange. So like if I were to put on a lotion and then put a mask on, on top of that, that would feel very uncomfortable to me.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I don't like the feeling of it either, the thought of it either.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so that's even like with clothing like if I were to put on like a lot of lotion and put clothing on top like I do not like that.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't like it either. And I think that's like one of the reasons that at the beginning, I was talking about how like, I haven't always been on the top of my like, on top of my skin. You know, routine is because like, I only like to put lotions and creams on at certain times, like, you know, I don't I also don't like putting all kinds of stuff on and then getting putting clothes on top of that. So it's like, I have to be very specific, you know, for me, it's like before bed, I can do it. And yeah, so I feel the same way.
Melanie Avalon:
It has to be like naked skin. Like I can't, I can't put on something and then put something on top. It's like a, no. Do you remember the TV show, Arthur? Did you watch that growing up? With the? I think he was an aardvark. The guy with the glasses? Yeah, and Buster, the bunny. I read the books. I didn't know there was a show. Oh yeah, there was a TV show. There was just one episode that is scarred in my head. His sister's name was D .W. and she was annoying and there was this one scene where he was sick and she came in and like got some lotion and like rubbed it on his chest and then they closed his shirt and I had like that image to this day. I'm like, I can't, I can't have like the, I could not be rubbed down with lotion and have like a shirt on top of it. That's what I was thinking about as like a five year old child watching that show. Okay, awesome. Well, I'm really excited to try it out. Oh, how can people get your mask?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, you can go to ketogenic girl and you should see it right there on the front page or just click on the menu go to the the tone luxe red light therapy collection so I have I have three different panels and then the crystal mask which is the the red light mask and it's it's a lot of fun to use it's got lots of different settings and there's also I'm looking at launching a new one that has a neck attachment also like for the neck that's nice yeah but it's it's great it's just like our lives are so busy these days you know it's it's so great if you can find something that can help you you know like
Melanie Avalon:
multitask and now I'm just thinking like when I can use it I was thinking I would use it in the sauna but then there's the idea of owned by the sauna I mean I have a sunlight and solo unit where your head is your head is outside of the unit but if my face sweats at all we could go back to that issue of the not liking the liquids on the skin with the device on top so when I'm like working on my prep docs I'm watching TV at night I can I could put it on then so I'm excited I'll have to try it and report back yeah so thank you so much for sending I'm so sorry that I like completely forgot I like didn't I didn't make like a mental
Vanessa Spina:
I also forgot.
Melanie Avalon:
You forgot to. Yeah. I didn't make like a mental registration note. Like I didn't like file it into my head as like product received. I think I just like put it, you know, down but now we know. So I will try it. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you think. I'm very excited. I used to use one similar but it didn't have the eye cutouts and it was more like a dome type thing that you put over your face. It also had blue light for Yeah. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Acne yeah, what's funny is like I used to find all these masks looked really creepy So I didn't like wearing them But this one the one that I created the the crystal mask doesn't look creepy. It actually like looks kind of cute So it's not like like some of the masks you know, they remind me of like Jason like the horror movie like and they are a very creepy looking but I wanted to find one that was like not that creepy and then I was wearing it one day and Pete came in the room and he he didn't know that I was like testing them out and he was like The mask is kind of cute. I was like, it's gonna cute, right? So it's nice to wear it and not feel like you look like Jason from the mask or whatever
Melanie Avalon:
It's like a little masquerade adventure. It's like Cinderella story. Awesome. Well, I will report back on that. Okay. So friends, I asked a fun question in my Facebook group. And so the Facebook group is, I have biohackers, intermittent fasting, plus real foods plus life. So please come join, hang out with us there. I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna start doing this more, ask like random questions and get everybody's answers. So I got a lot of really good comments. I asked friends, what was a mistake you made with intermittent fasting? We got a lot of comments. Would you like to hear them? And then maybe we can share mistakes we made.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, this sounds so fun.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So, well, the first person who commented was kind of a wild card. Stewart said, the biggest intermittent fasting mistake I made was intermittent fasting. It's stress on the body, eat regular meals, but don't snack all day. And then there was a reply to it from Nicole, and she said she agrees. On that note, I do think some people, intermittent fasting might not be the best fit for their body, and they really are better eating regular meals throughout the day, and they can regulate that, and that's what works for them, and I'm all about it. At the same time, I believe most people can benefit from some sort of time -restricted eating in their life. And as far as his comment about its stress on the body, I would say it's stress on the body.
Vanessa Spina:
The opposite i think it's stressful for the body to be constantly in the fed state and not having that they just arrest and not be able to go into that like catabolic phase you know after meals.
Melanie Avalon:
That's such a good point that I think a lot of people don't talk about very much, which is, well, A, the digestive eating state as well is a stressful experience for the body, like digesting energy, you know, assimilating it, dealing with potential toxins and the activation of the immune system. Like the whole thing is not, even though it's associated with the parasympathetic rest and digestion mode, the actual experience is not necessarily easy, I guess, for the body. And what I think I'd like to elaborate on here is like this word stress, like he's just using the word stress as like an overarching, not quite clarified word, like a big category. But there's all these different types of stress and there's different degrees and I can have different implications based on context and how much of it and just so many things. So we know like hermetic stressors, I've heard this example made so many times by different podcasters, Peter Attia makes it a lot. And it's that if you were to look at the hormonal state and the metabolic state, just like the state of the body during exercise, especially like intense exercise, it would look on paper like the most horrible thing, how your blood sugars probably going up, stress hormones are being released, all these different things you would think, oh, that this is not a state we want to be in. And yet we know that exercise is one of the most beneficial things we can do if we're doing it in a natural way that's supporting the body. So this idea of like stress on the body, like you really, really need context and applying intermittent fasting in a way that is honoring the evolution of our bodies, where our bodies are accustomed to alternating between states of feeding and fasting. And when you're entering that fasted state, you're letting your body rest as far as like your digestion rest. You're finally tapping into fat stores so your body's not stressed with the blood sugar swings and like the glycemic control issue. So that's super beneficial. And we've also, certain quote, stress hormones are released, things like noradrenaline, maybe even cortisol, but those hormones in and of themselves aren't bad. They have a purpose and a place and they're serving a purpose in the fasted state of helping you have energy and tap into body fat stores and all these different things. So I really, really think context is key. So Stuart, I completely validate you that maybe intermittent fasting doesn't work for you. I would ask everybody to think more about this, is it stress on the body thing? So that was a long, do you have any other thoughts about that, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I mean, there's, you know, a lot of mental factors, I think, as well, like, if you believe it's going to be stressful, or you believe it is stressful, you know, to do intermittent fasting, I just think that, you know, like, I'm more on the side, as we were just talking about that, perpetually being in the fed state is very stressful for the body having to deal with, you know, high blood sugar, and, you know, having to manage all of that and insulin and, you know, having a lot of fuel, like, circulating in the bloodstream, like, that's extremely stressful for the body to have to deal with and manage. So our modern lifestyles, we are perpetually consuming things. And, you know, whether it's food or information, news, like media, whatever. And I think that a lot of that really does put a lot of stress in the body. So for me, like, and for I think a lot of listeners, it's probably not the case for everyone, but intermittent fasting is that stress relief, it's like, okay, I can go back to my natural state, I can go back into that facet state for a period of the day, which is probably how ancestrally like I was, you know, designed to thrive in that sense. So definitely had a lot of a lot of comments on that. But I appreciate that being shared anyway, because like, it probably isn't for everyone. And if, if it is something that is stressing you out, there's always an adaptation period. And I'm sure you've talked about this, like multiple times on the podcast and past episodes. But, you know, it's it's the same with going off carbs or like lowering your carbs. There is an adaptation phase where during that period of time when you're first doing it, you might not feel amazing. And that might feel very stressful. But in general, I think it can be a wonderful thing for the body. So yeah, it depends on your how you think about it as well. Thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
So that was a great comment to start with. Laura said doing the same time every day and eating too many carbs in her eating window. So that's a good example. We talked about this last episode about, should you do the same time window every day or should you shake it up? And I'm the person who does better with the same time window, but Vanessa does better with different windows. So it sounds like Laura, she realized that she needs to be more of like a Vanessa. And for her, she was eating too many carbs in her eating window. Oh, oh, they're like, oh, I should also mention if they're like reactions. So the Stewart's thing had nine people liked that comment and five people liked Laura's. Judy said eating whatever she wanted. And then in parentheses, junk food in her eating window and 15 people agreed with that. I will comment on that briefly, which is that I think you're going from, eating standard American diet and junk food to intermittent fasting with junk food. Like you'll probably definitely see benefits. That said, the benefits just escalate and compound when you do make the healthy choices. And I think a benefit of intermittent fasting is, it also, for at least for me, it made me start craving more healthy, simple plain foods. Because when you go through that fasted period and then it's like time to have your eating window, you want like nourishing food, which is like protein and like food. It's not like a snack bar. It really just changes, at least for me, your perspective of what you crave, which I love. Andrea said adding lemon to her water. Clean fasting is so much easier. Kristin said eating carbs in her window. She definitely needs a more ketogenic approach. Kimmy said ending her eating window for the day with carbs. She wakes up hungry every time. So a lot of carb things here. I have a comment about that, but I'll save it for a little bit. Laura said over fasting and not eating enough within her window. One meal a day was terrible for me, even though at one time there was such a push for it when you'd hit a plateau. And I think this, again, goes back to finding what works for you. So for Laura sounds like she was probably not able to eat enough when she was doing a one meal a day approach. And I think that does happen for a lot of people. I also think some people can get enough in their one meal a day approach. I know I do. Vanessa has, when she does it, again, the theme of the show so often is really just finding what works for you. Annette said fasting for too long, more than three days. So that did not work for her. Sophia said one meal a day, that big meal caused so much inflammation for me. So I have a comment about that, but then Kelly actually commented on that and said, how do you know you had inflammation? Was it stomach bloating? What did you do that was different that helped? Just curious. I'll just comment on that. So the big meal causing inflammation and a one meal a day situation, there are a lot of factors that could be involved there. It's hard to know how much of that would be just from the concept of eating a big meal versus the foods you're eating in that meal. There's also a lot of digestive support you can do to help with bigger meals. So, and I plan to make my own versions of this next, hopefully after spirulina, which is taking HCL, Betaine HCL, that's essentially stomach acid and it can really help you break down proteins. And then you can take digestive enzymes as well to really help with breaking down protein as well as other different other different food components. So there's all these different, they often end in ACE like amylase, protease, lipase, and they're all to digest different things. So you know, lipase helps digest fat and amylases help digest starch, proteases help digest protein, cellulase helps digest cellulose. There's so many. I'm actually, one reason I'm really excited about formulating my digestive enzyme blend is I am really getting into the formulation of it and which ACEs to include. But point being, so formula day, if you are experiencing inflammation, I would look at your digestive support and I would also look at the actual food choices. Are you eating foods that are inflammatory for you? So you know, that could be like a food reaction type thing. I love Victus88. They're my favorite food sensitivity test. So they test your IgG, your IgE, and then really importantly, they attest your IgG4, which actually gives you tolerance. So because a lot of conventional food sensitivity tests just look at IgG, which is your reaction to a food, but they don't look at your IgG4, which can actually help with tolerance to that food, nor do they look at their C3D, which is something they can amplify a reaction. So it's possible that you might have like a tiny reaction IgG, but a C3D complement, which actually makes it way worse. So they have a very nuanced test and they give you the strength of the response, which a lot of the tests are just like on off, like you had IgG, you didn't have IgG. Point is, I really recommend this test to help find the foods that work for you. So maybe you won't have that inflammatory response in a one meal a day situation. So for that, you can go to MelanieAvalon.com/Victis88, V -I -C -T -U -S -8 -8, and use the coupon code MelanieAvalon, it will give you a discount. I forget how much it's for, but there is a discount with that. Going back to the list. So Erin said snacking too much in her window. That's interesting. Vanessa, what do you feel about snacking within the eating window?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean that I guess it sounds like it might be like a really long eating window, you know, like if if the eating window is like 12 hours or 10 hours or something, then it's kind of like, maybe she's saying that she's having kind of like, a couple of big meals, but then still snacking too much in between them. That would be my interpretation of it. So I understand, like, I guess that would probably not give you the results that you're looking for.
Melanie Avalon:
for. My interpretation is that there's probably at least two meals with like a time in between where she could not be eating if she so chose.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, sounds like that's what she maybe like she figured out we're guessing here.
Melanie Avalon:
We figured out what you're saying. Again, intermittent fasting, it's not really about restricting. The focus is on the time aspect restriction piece. That said, people, you can always optimize and make changes and you might find that you are eating too much in your eating window. So that could be a situation where she could just stop the snacking or she could shorten the eating window. So lots of different potential there. Zoe said, probably holding on to the idea of eating whatever, that's an all caps, whatever she wanted in her window, healthy food choices make a difference. I agree. Tracy said, oh, I was waiting for this one to come up, not eating enough protein to open my window and then going nuts on carbs to make up for it and the resulting hunger. Now I open with protein, I have a snack and then a few hours later I have a meal. And then Jane wanted to know what she opens her eating window with and she said she opens with cheese, nuts, any meat that she might have left over. And then typically she has fruit and maybe some peanut butter. Her large meal is at dinner time. Oh, wow. So she opens with a lot more than I was thinking reading her first question. I cannot agree more. Like when I was saying that earlier about how you crave food, more whole foods, I just really, there's such a magic, I think, to really making protein a foundational part of your meal. And especially if you open with it or start with it, it helps so much, I think, with satiety and getting full and not having to keep eating and eating and eating. Do you have other thoughts about the protein, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, that's like the cornerstone of my entire approach to life now is like protein first, you know, making sure that first meal has protein in it is key to halt muscle protein breakdown. That's something I learned from Dr. Don Lehman. And so that's, that's key, but for me, it's also what helps me to feel so satiated. So like you and I have talked about this before. We both have a similar approach where it's just kind of like unlimited lean protein until I'm full. And then for me, I know that that approach just makes me feel so satisfied at my meal. And I don't have to think about food like the rest of the time. And I'm also doing so much good for my body in terms of body recomposition and, you know, shoring up that muscle development, muscle repair as well. So yeah, for the first meal of the day, and it's also great for leptin, you know, for your first meal of the day, if you are having an earlier meal, like if you're having a meal before dinner time to, to have protein 40 to 50 grams, at least that meal, but anytime you're having, you know, at least 30 grams, if it's animal protein, 35 grams, if it's plant protein, at least you're going to be initiating muscle protein synthesis, which is so good for you. But as I said, it's also going to help you really feel satisfied, which is like, for me, it's the key in like, in being able to be effortlessly lean is like, it's just managing hunger, like no one, no one wants to feel hungry. I think that's, that's like one of the biggest struggles when it comes to achieving like the body composition or level of fitness that you want. And, you know, being able to take care of that by prioritizing protein, and to me, like, I still think of it as like the magical macronutrient, because it's just so amazing at doing that.
Melanie Avalon:
I do too. And what's so interesting about it is to me, it just seems like so obvious that it does all of that and that it's so fulfilling and increases satiety and helps muscle. And like you said, it's this magical macronutrient. I forget that people don't, like so many people just don't know that, like they just literally don't know it. So it would never occur to them when they're like eating and eating and eating and hungry and hungry and hungry and can't get full that eating a certain type of food would actually make them feel full like with eating protein. Because I'll suggest this to sometimes I'll be, you know, talking to people and they're trying to troubleshoot while their diet's not working or what to do. And I'll just I'll start with that. I'll be like, you know, you could try really focusing on protein and that will be like a brand new idea to them. Like I need to remember that because to me, it's just like so obvious. But it's really exciting for people to experience that because it's something you really feel in your body, I think, like how much it helps everything. So okay, we have I love this one from Martin. He said, I started one mill a day at 68 years old rather than 20 years old. Like that's his biggest mistake is starting. Never too late to start. Maddie said, not eating enough. And turns out I do better with a morning window. So yes, finding the time it works for you. And then Mary answered that and said, interesting. I'm going to give that a try. Thank you. I love seeing the people like interacting and, you know, trying out different things. Nydia said overdoing it and not eating enough protein. Then she says she'll stop because I'll binge on bad food. So I think that's something good to comment on. If you find yourself in a pattern with intermittent fasting where you are going into these binge type, you know, cycles, I would really suggest looking at the approach that you're doing because something is not working, you know, for you. I really think, you know, it might be for you that you need like a longer eating window, or maybe you need to if you're a moderator type of person rather than extremist, maybe you need to include some of your, you know, treats in your eating windows, then you don't feel the need to like, binge on them. But the point is if anybody feels like their intermittent fasting pattern is having control over them rather than control over it, I would really encourage them to reevaluate and troubleshoot. Shannon said the biggest mistake I see people making is not eating enough protein. If you've only been doing two meals, you need to eat huge servings of protein. Kim says protein is hard to get in. Unfortunately, I use a protein drink as needed. And just a comment on that is, again, this is me coming from my perspective and the way I experience it. So when people find it hard to get enough protein, is it because they're filling up on other foods? I guess my question is, if you make protein the foundation of your meal, so like it's the main thing you're eating, the first thing you're eating, and then you fill out around that. I guess I wonder how people like I wonder what people's main issue is and struggling to get in enough protein. Do you have thoughts?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think it's a combination. I notice that the most when people are first trying to go higher protein, because it's just something that, like, none of us have ever done before. So you have to learn it, right? Like, it's always a bit of a learning curve. Like, what's, how do I add more protein? What are the lean proteins? Like, how do I, you know, you figure out different ways, and then eventually it becomes easier. So I think it's a combination of, at first, just not knowing how, and then, like, and just like what which food foods, you know, to add in order to get more protein. And also just that, because you don't know enough different ways of adding it, that you'll kind of be limited. So you're like, maybe you're just adding another chicken breast, and you're like, not enjoying that, or like finding it hard to eat all of that. So like, then you start figuring out like, oh, I can add it by having a protein shaker, I can add more egg whites to my scrambled eggs or omelet, or I can make protein bread, or I can like have more yogurt, or I can add like all these different things. I think once people sort of figure that out, then it gets easier. So that's been my experience is that it's just sort of a beginner's adaptation to it. And then not knowing like all the foods that are high protein that you, you can add in. And so like, it's a combination of those different things. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. I'm also getting full if I didn't say that.
Vanessa Spina:
like getting full from it that you're like, what now I'm trying to hit like 40 or 50 grams and I'm full.
Melanie Avalon:
Which is such a good problem to have, I think, for a lot of, you know, like, let's not complain about this. This is what we thought. It's like the opposite problem of quote dieting normally. So, okay. Sunny said overeating during her window. Janice said fasting too long each day and not fasting according to her cycle. So that's another example of somebody who clearly does well with adjusting to her cycle, which again, we talked about this a little bit last episode. So check out that episode. Nikki doing it every day the same. So again, somebody who doesn't do well with the same. Kyoko said one meal a day. That was tough. I learned to listen to my body. I eat twice a day now, most days, and I feel and look better. Also previously, I did not pay attention to protein intake. That makes a huge difference. See friends for not making this up. Stephanie said, there seems to be a trend in this post of a lot of people saying similar things. So perhaps this isn't the best approach for many people as from what I can see for many people, it creates disordered eating. If you just find a balanced diet, eat when you're hungry and listen to what your body is asking for and choose whole foods, your mind and body will be far more balanced than restricting and obsessing over a certain window or type of eating following an intuitive eating approach. I feel is the most healthy way to find a healthy balance with food. Thank you so much for sharing Stephanie. And she has really wonderful emojis. She has the pink heart emoji with like the vibrations, which like the heart like vibrating, and then she has like the hands closed. I'm wondering Vanessa, because I have a lot of thoughts and we still have half of the responses and we're coming up on an hour. Should we put like a teaser there for next week and start with that next week?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was gonna say that too.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. I actually talked about it a lot with, I recently had Matt and Wade from Bioptimizers back on my show. I love them. I've had them on so many, I think I've had them on this show three times and that show three times maybe. We ended talking about basically what she just said. Oh, I can't wait to hear all those thoughts. Yeah. Wade got passionate. I was like, whoa. It was like, it was like listening to, it was amazing.
Vanessa Spina:
Last time I interviewed Rob Wolf, he got really passionate, like pretty much the whole episode was him like pushing back on intuitive eating. Just like that and also the critiques of like, oh, these approaches are so restrictive, etc. And he's like, well, no, actually, like these approaches are helping people from debilitating conditions. So, you know, it's, yeah, the whole episode was him being passionate on this topic, and how he was saying like he was, he was going to start pushing back more at it. And I'm not talking about this particular comment in the Facebook group, but just in general about critiques on like these different lifestyle approaches, which, like lifestyle medicine is a thing, there's a huge amount of research behind it. And it is helping a lot of people. And it is scientifically validated, like it is evidence based, a lot of what we're talking about. It's a new movement to me, it's a revolution. But yeah, we're gonna talk about it on the next episode. So I'll leave it there.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'll just really briefly comment. I think there's like a move where it almost takes away agency from people when they have these tools at their disposal where they could really improve their health and make changes. But there's these labels of it being too restrictive or it'll create too many issues. And so the interview I'm doing tomorrow with Lee Hood and Nathan Price all about the future of like healthcare and wellness. But they mentioned, for example, that there's pushback against genetic testing. So like getting your tests about APOE status or, you know, what do your genes say about your potential disease or your disease risk. And there's this idea that that creates too much anxiety. And, you know, people shouldn't know that, but they did a study and only 2% of people regretted getting back their genetic risk profiles. Not exactly the same thing, but it's just to wrap it up with a bow like this idea. I just love giving people agency when it comes to health and letting them make the choices they want to make that make them feel best in their body. So yeah, so that will be a teaser for next week. We can dive into it. And a few things for listeners before we go. Thank you so much for all of your comments and questions. We love you guys. You can submit your own questions by going to questions at iapodcast .com or you can go to iapodcast .com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at iapodcast .com slash episode 368. You can get all the stuff that we like at iapodcast .com slash stuff we like. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am @MelanieAvalon and Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go? Oh,
Vanessa Spina:
I had the best time and really looking forward to the next episode where we pick things back up.
Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye
Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
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LINKS
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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
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