Welcome to Episode 402 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SPECIAL GUEST MARK SISSON

Mark Sisson is widely regarded as the founding father of the ancestral health movement. His number-one-ranked blog and Primal Health Coach Institute have paved the way for primal enthusiasts to take personal responsibility for their health. Known as a market-disrupting, innovative entrepreneur, Mark’s Primal Kitchen enterprise introduced healthy condiments to the marketplace for the first time, and was acquired by Kraft-Heinz in 2018. As one of the earliest proponents of barefoot-inspired living, Mark proceeded to launch Peluva five-toe minimalist footwear company (with his son Kyle) in 2021, and is now busy “changing the way the world walks.”

Mark, 71, has a BA in biology from Williams College and is a former world-class endurance athlete, with a 2:18 marathon and a fourth-place finish in the Hawaii Ironman World Triathlon Championships to his credit. Mark lives in Miami Beach, Florida, where enjoys Ultimate Frisbee, standup paddling, fat-tire beach bike rides, and a walking-oriented lifestyle.

Website | IG | Book: Born To Walk

SHOW NOTES

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LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 402 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX.  And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment.  To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. Oh, my goodness. I am so excited about today's interview.  We have a very, very special guest on today's show. It is a legend. He almost needs no introduction, but I will give him an introduction anyways. And he has a new book coming out, which honestly was a complete paradigm shift for me personally, and I think is going to affect so many lives. So I am here with Mark Sisson.  Friends, I know you know who Mark Sisson is, but he is a legend in the primal sphere world. So he actually came up with the company, the Primal Kitchen Enterprise, which was acquired by Kraft Heinz, but people are probably pretty familiar with those products.  He's a multiple New York Times bestselling author, the Primal Blueprint, Two Meals a Day that I had him on recently, or a while ago for Primal Endurance, so many incredible different books. And his newest book is called Born to Walk, the Broken Promises of the Running Boom and How to Slow Down and Get Healthy One Step at a Time. And okay, friends.  So this book, I was really excited to read just based on the title alone. My personal history with running and listeners might have gathered this over the many years of me doing this show. But I am, I am not a runner. It's never really appealed to me. It doesn't make me feel good.  And I always sort of felt a little guilty about that, especially when I would, you know, I see people who are really into running, which I think is amazing. Well, I guess we can talk about that. I think it's amazing if it makes people feel good, and it has a healthy place in their life. So I've always admired and respected that I've been really intrigued by things like people doing marathons.  And at the same time, I was always a little bit suspicious about the health effects of things like marathons. All of that said, I also was a little bit aware of the barefoot movement and the minimalist shoe movement, but I really had no idea about the actual reasoning or science behind that.  So friends, born to walk is going to completely answer all of your questions and give you a complete paradigm shift with all of this.

Melanie Avalon

Should you actually be running? We're going to talk about that. So Mark, thank you for all that you're doing and thank you so much for being here.

Mark Sisson

Thanks for having me, Melanie. What an introduction. I love it. So let's get into it.

Melanie Avalon

Literally, I've been wanting and needing to read your books since I'm having flashbacks now to like, what was it like when they would make us run the mile when you were in elementary school? I honestly think that was my least favorite day of school every single year. It just felt wrong doing it for me, even though ironically, I was one of the fastest students.  But in any case, enough about me, you, your background with running. So you used to be a runner. Could you tell listeners a little bit about your background? Also, I am dying to know when was the last time you ran a mile?

Mark Sisson

Well, so, yeah, I was a runner. I was one of those people who gravitated toward running in the late 1960s, early 70s. Not because it was a fad, but because it was the only sport available to me. I was a skinny, scrawny kid, too small for basketball or football or baseball or hockey. I grew up in Maine.  I actually wound up jogging to and from school every day for years just as a way to get home before the bus could ever get me there. So it was a form of transportation early on.  When I was in high school, as a freshman, I went out for the track team, and I found myself able to win both the mile and the two-mile event in most of the track meets I entered as a result of my lifestyle, which was running to and from school, like some Rift Valley East African story you might hear. Over the years, I developed this ability. I was a runner.  I was somebody, one of the very few, it turns out, genetically gifted to be able to handle that amount of mileage in minimalist shoes. Because in those days, in the late 60s and early 70s, there were no cushioned running shoes. They were just Chuck Taylors. And eventually, there was a Japanese shoe called the Onitsuka Tiger, which was a very minimalist shoe.  It had a quarter-inch thick sole, and so you felt the ground every time your foot landed. There was no cushioning. There was no, you know, rear foot motion control, mid-foot stabilizers, or any of the stuff that they claimed to be beneficial in today's running shoes. So I was a runner, and I was one of many runners in the 70s who self-selected to be runners.  And I turned into a pretty decent marathoner. I finished fifth in the U.S. National Championships in 1980. I went on to compete in the Ironman Triathlon. But eventually, I had to retire because of injuries. I was injured largely as a result of the excess mileage I was doing, largely as a result of the shoes that I was wearing.  These cushioned, eventually, I started wearing these big thick cushioned shoes that Nike was developing. Those caused problems.  And I got to the point where I could no longer train at an elite level, and I turned my attention to other things in life, like figuring out how everyone could be strong and lean and fit with the least amount of pain and suffering and sacrifice and all of the negative words that we use to describe what we think it takes to become fit.  And that's what started me down this path of the Primal Blueprint and Primal Kitchen and writing books, you know, across the sphere of health and wellness. But I was, and to answer your question, I haven't run a mile in 30 years. And it was a recognition that humans are not really born to run, we are born to walk.  And so much of my strategy, my anti-aging strategy, my fitness strategy, certainly my health strategy over the past few decades has focused on lots of vigorous, robust walking, some time spent in the gym lifting weights, a little bit of time sprinting once in a while, and I will differentiate the concept of sprinting from regular running.

Mark Sisson

Running is a, you know, we're certainly born to be able to run, Melanie, but we're not born to run metronomically day in and day out at an eight or a nine or a 10 minute per mile pace over a lifetime.  The book sort of was born out of this recognition that there are so many frustrated people who took on running because they heard it was the best way to improve cardiovascular health or the best way to live longer or the best way to lose weight. And it's not any of those, it's a horrible way to lose weight.  There are 50 different ways, better ways to achieve cardiovascular fitness without the injury tendency that runners get. And there's a hundred different activities that are much more fun.  And your experience, which was one of, I think, a very common one, which was, gosh, I think I should be running because people around me are running and there's all sorts of hype surrounding running and how it's supposed to be this great activity. And yet you found yourself kind of second guessing it every time you went out the door.  And I, you know, I think a lot of people share this feeling like, okay, I'll do it. If I have to struggle and I have to suffer, I'll do it, but I don't really want to do it. There are things I'd rather do. And I'm here to give everybody permission to walk again. Walking is the quintessential human movement. It's what everybody should be doing as much as possible, as often as possible.  Anybody can do it from the least healthy, most pain-ridden person right up into an elite athlete. Everybody can walk and should walk.

Melanie Avalon

I was actually reflecting on walking yesterday because I was flying back from Vegas, so I was sitting for four and a half hours on a plane and then I was in the airport and I was just walking through the terminal and I was like walking feels so good. It was just like this intuitive moment where I was like it is doing so much good for my body right now.  So question about our evolution and the genetics and all the things because, and you mentioned this a second ago, but so we do have adaptations for running and you talked about this in the book. So we have like an upright stature ability. We have long limbs, narrow pelvis, slender frame, efficient thermoregulatory potential, lots of other things, powerful glutes, short toes.  So clearly evolution takes a long time to happen and presumably you have to be doing a lot for us to evolve certain features. So like you said, we did evolve with the ability to run. Why were we not doing it more than it sounds like we were doing it? And then for people like you who you said you did have this genetic tendency to run.  So is there a certain subtype of humans who were running more evolutionarily?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so that's a great question.  So a lot of the hype around running and humans being, quote, born to run, there was a book came out in 2010 by Chris McDougall that posited that humans are born to run and described persistence hunters in the early days of Africa, these early humans who would track a beast for an hour or two hours or three hours and outlast the beast in the heat of the desert and then be able to walk up and stick a spear in them at the end of this long tracking expedition.  But bear in mind, number one, those individuals weren't running seven minute miles for three hours. They were walking and hiding and crouching and jogging a little bit and tracking and sprinting and combining all these methods that require a large human brain and opposable thumbs to make the tools to create the spears to be able to do this.  So that they could kill a beast and have food for a couple of days. They didn't do this every day. In fact, it was antithetical to life until about a hundred years ago that you would go out and run mileage every single day for no reason whatsoever. These were individual pre-humans and early humans who by virtue of their lifestyle, which comprised walking a lot.  But no chairs, no couches, no sofas, no TVs, they walked a lot. And that's what gave them the capacity between the walking and the lifting of heavy things. They carried stones, they carried logs, they built things, they climbed up things to look out and see what was going on. They carried babies, they lugged carcasses back to camp.  They were always lifting heavy things and they sprinted once in a while. Now when they sprinted, it was typically a life or death situation. It was like, oh my God, there's something trying to kill me. I better run away.  That's so that this combination of lifestyle where there was a lot of low level activity, a lot of walking around like literally minute by minute, day by day, that kept an aerobic capacity.  Then lifting heavy things, which was the compliment today is go to the gym and lift weights twice a week and sprinting once in a while, not every day, but once in a while they had to ramp their effort up to 100% of max to continue to live and pass the genes along to the next generation. So the idea that we're persistence hunters has been sort of glorified.  And I think the anthropological evidence has been misconstrued to suggest that we are born to run. We're born to walk clearly and we're born to sprint a little bit, but we're born to be able to run, but not run metronomically day in and day out and certainly not given the shape of 75% of this country, which is overweight. Now my own genetic capabilities.  So one of the things I say in the book is that probably only five or 2% of the population is even genetically capable of being able to run day in and day out as a form of, quote, recreation, end quote. But until 100 years ago, no one would have chosen to do that.  Even the fittest and skinniest humans would not have said, oh, I'm just gonna go run 10 miles for no reason whatsoever because I feel like it's gonna make me healthy.

Mark Sisson

It was the exact opposite. Expending that amount of energy in a world where energy food was scarce was completely antithetical to health and to survival.  So this idea that we can use running as a means of raising our heart rate and try to offset the lifestyle that we've created for ourselves, which has a lot of leisure time, a lot of sitting in chairs at desks, sitting on couches, watching TV, doing all these things that we tend to do, I guess it served a purpose in getting people off the couches.  But over the past 50 years, what's happened is, and I'll tell you, it's just a really interesting, perfect storm of events that happened to create this running boom in the first place.  As I said, in the 1970s, the only people who ran were runners, were people who were, like me, genetically gifted, skinny, ectomorphs, great lungs, a propensity to manage discomfort well, because running is managing discomfort. and they're basically masochists, it was almost always in pursuit of some goal like winning a race. So, up until the mid-70s, the only runners were people who were runners.  The only people who ran or trained or jogged were people who were actually trying to race and attract meat or had selected that as their sport. Now, this is where it gets interesting.  In the early 70s, Bill Bowerman, who's the coach of the Oregon Track Club and Olympic trials team coach, realizes that many of the skinny American runners who are trying to compete on the world scene are getting injured because the shoes they're wearing are not built for 80 or 90 miles a week of training, and that was what it was determined you needed to do in order to compete on the world scene.  So, Bill Bowerman and Phil Knight, who eventually founded Nike, became the CEO of Nike, created a specific, very thick, sold shoe that would allow skinny runners with good form to be able to run more miles in their training so that they could compete on the world circuit. Okay, that's point number one. Point number two is around that time, Bill Bowerman had gone to New Zealand.  He had seen that the fit people in New Zealand were doing this thing they were calling jogging. They were going out and running miles for no particular purpose. So, Bowerman wrote a book called Jogging.  Then in 1968, Ken Cooper revolutionized the concept of cardiovascular health by writing a book called Aerobics, and the book Aerobics, which has sold, I think, 30 million copies to date, it posited that the more of an activity that you did that raised your heart rate, the better it would be for your heart's strength and the longer you would live.  And so, people started thinking, okay, I'm going to start doing this aerobic activity, and the easiest way to do this was running. So now, along comes, now we have the thick shoes, which are enabling people to run and not have their feet tell them that's way too many miles, because these thick cushioned shoes are absorbing some of the shock.

Mark Sisson

We've got books, and eventually Jim Ficks writes a book called The Book of Running, and he popularizes running. And the next thing you know, Frank Shorter wins a gold medal in Munich. Bill Rogers sets an American record in the Boston Marathon, and now everybody's excited about running as this new health pursuit. And remember, the 70s and into the late 70s and early 80s was the me decade.  It came after the counterculture of the 60s. It was now the me decade. It's all about me. It's all about trying to self-help and all the things that accompany that. So this cultural zeitgeist pushed everybody into running. But even in the 80s, we still didn't have the rates of obesity and overweight that we do today. So even in the 80s, more people started running. These new shoes came on the scene.  They started to allow people to put in more miles. It seemed like a good idea. I was one of them. It seemed like a good idea to me. I was still racing at a high level. But more and more people would started taking up this nascent sport in the interest of losing weight, improving cardiovascular health, some meditative aspects that were discussed.  They were all manner of purported health benefits to doing this. And yet, the number of running injuries increased. Why did it increase? Because people were running with bad form, and they were using these cushioned shoes to enable their bad form.  When you run barefoot, Melanie, when you run down the sidewalk barefoot, I don't care how untrained you are, how overweight you are, your feet automatically tell your entire kinetic chain exactly how to absorb the shock. And when you're running barefoot, you don't heel strike.  If you're running barefoot, you're running with a well-defined midfoot gait and doesn't last very long because you're not trained to do it, but if you were to take shoes off any untrained person, have them run down the sidewalk, they would run with pretty good form, barefoot.  Put some shoes on those people and all of a sudden you see the heel striking, the slapping of the pavement, the plotting, the noise and that's where you start to get the injuries. So running, even to this day, now we fast forward to today where we have these thick, thick, thick, cushioned, pillowy running shoes, there's no decrease in the amount of running injuries.  50% of everyone who calls themselves a runner is injured every year. And at any one point in time, 25% of all runners are injured. It's a worse injury record than ENFL.  So when we're talking about injuries, we're talking about bone bruises, we're talking about Achilles tendon issues, we're talking about plantar fasciitis, we're talking about chondromalacia of the knees, we're talking about tendonitis throughout the hips.  All of these are almost like, I would say almost all if not all, are related to the shoes they're wearing, the bad form and the tendency to overdo it because the mind goes, I'm a runner, I have to get out and do my three miles or my five miles or my six miles.

Mark Sisson

So now we have the spate of injuries. Then we also can talk about running as a weight loss strategy. It's horrible. Most, if you go to a marathon, which is the quintessential bucket list item for a lot of people, and you look at a marathon like Los Angeles or Chicago or Boston, you see 40 or 50,000 people lined up in the starting line, 80% of them are overweight. I got a question for you.  If you claim to be a marathoner and you've been training for this 26.2 mile event, why are you overweight? Why are you still overweight? Because the type of training you're undergoing is causing your body to burn mostly sugar and hold on to its fat stores so that when you finish a workout, your brain goes, we have to eat. We don't know how to burn fat.  We've gone out and we've trained too hard for the fitness level that we're at. And now the brain says we have to compensate by overeating calories. And so somebody might go out and run seven miles and burn off 750 calories in that workout. But the body and the brain immediately goes, oh, we're gonna make up for that.  We're gonna consume 800 calories because if this fool's gonna do it again tomorrow, we have to be ready. So over time, you will see people who have been running for a long time and still have the same 10 or 30 pounds to lose. I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? So those are two examples.  I've got many more in the book of all of the reasons that running has a spate of broken promises, unfulfilled expectations, left people feeling guilty because they tried it, they thought they could do it, they didn't have what it took, and they moped away thinking they'd failed when in fact, if they had engaged in a well-thought-out robust walking program, they would have lost the weight, they would have felt better about themselves, their mood would have been elevated, their digestion would have improved, their mental clarity would be better.  I mean, all of the things that we sought from a running program and didn't get were always available from a well-thought running program that certainly combined two days a week in the gym lifting weights and a little bit of sprinting.

Melanie Avalon

So in the book you go through the entire history of running like you touched on there and there's also the myth of the of the marathon.

Mark Sisson

Oh, that's a great one. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Can you tell listeners a little bit about that?

Mark Sisson

You know, this is the, again, it's the metric a lot of people use. It's the bucket list item. There are people who, you know, have their marathon finisher medals, hanging at their desk at work. They're so proud of the achievement. And they should be it's an amazing achievement. But it was fabricated out of thin air.  So the original story, as was told, inappropriately by the industry in the late in the late 70s, early 70s, was that there's this guy Fadipides, and he was a hemorrhodromae, which was a messenger for the army. And when Athens, you know, there was a there was a the battle of Athens had happened in marathon.  And he had to run to Sparta to announce, well, the original story was that he, they had this huge battle. And after fighting for three days, he ran to Athens, 25 miles to Athens, and collapsed in the middle of the town square after saying, Rejoice, rejoice, we've won. And so the original story was this guy ran, he fought for three days, he, he ran 25 miles, he collapsed in the square.  And, and so that was the, that was the the heroics of the original story of Fadipides. The problem was that was taken from a poem by Robert Browning, who used a tremendous amount of poetic license to describe this hero and create a myth around him.  The fact is that this guy ran from the battlefield, 103 miles to ask for assistance, the town that he was at was having a that he ran into to ask for assistance was having some feast and they said, Well, we we can't go we can't we can't help you because we're in the middle of a festival. And we have to, you know, we have to wait three days, and it's going to take us then four days to get there.  So he has to take this guy, Fadipides has to take a nap and run all the way back to the battlefield to announce to the generals, yeah, these guys can't show up, they can't, they're not going to help us. So we're on our own. Now, they, they wound up winning the battle, but the guy ran 306 miles in 36 hours. That's the real history of Fadipides.  So if you really want to honor this guy, you would you would not be running 26.2 miles, you'd be running 306 miles. But then it gets it gets a little even weirder. So because of the original myth, the original Olympic Games in 1996 Olympic Games in Greece said, we should have a marathon run. And so they had a 26.2 mile, sorry, a 25 mile marathon run.  And that was that was the marathon distance, until the Olympics was held in London a few years later, and they wanted the event to finish in front of Windsor Castle. And in order to do that, they had to extend the race to 26.2 miles. So that's how the that's how the distance came to be 26.2 is because a queen wanted to see the finish, not because of the distance from from the planes of marathon to Athens, and not because of anything that this heroic guy Fadipides did. The point being that the entire distance is just a fabrication. It's it's drawn out of thin air, based on a poem by a 19th century poet, who wanted to honor this guy with his poetry. And yet, millions of people every year, pay their 300 bucks to enter this race, beat themselves up horribly.

Mark Sisson

And then, you know, take their finishers medal because they're they think they're honoring this this feat by this one guy. Anyway, this, we have a lot of these stories in the book about how, how the assumptions about what went before us created this running boom, that really ultimately was based on fabrications.  And I think, you know, later on, again, that the running shoe industry, marketing these thick, sold, cushioned running shoes as being better for you, may be the worst thing that happened to running because more injuries as a result of these bad shoes, encouraging bad form. So anyway, we're back to walking is the quintessential human movement is the best thing we can do.  It's the cornerstone of anybody's longevity program, for sure. I mean, even if you look at my friend, Dan Buettner, who I don't know if you know, Dan, but he's the author of The Blue Zones. Dan's my downstairs neighbor in my building.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? What a building to live in.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, and Dan and I talk, you know, we talk a lot about it. But, you know, we argue over things like meat versus, you know, beans at the as the center piece of the diet. But we certainly agree that walking and outdoor activity is that is this probably the single greatest determinant of people living to 100 years old.  So if you're thinking about longevity, walking is a far better choice than running. We have a whole chapter in the book about how really good runners tend to get into cardiovascular problems after decades of running as a result of running too hard, too long, too far, you know, too often and raising their heart rate too much. So running is not even a great longevity strategy for most people.  And again, when I talk about most people, I'm saying there are some people like me and even I was on the cusp of being genetically appropriate for running. Most of your elite runners. Look, here's the thing, running is catabolic running tears muscle tissue down.  That's why even in the 10,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, even in the endurance persistence hunting group, they recognize that it was catabolic that it would that it would tear you down and you could only do it once in a while in search of sustenance of food, a protein that would build you back up. So the idea that early humans would go out and, you know, we killed an animal yesterday.  Our bellies are full. I know let's go out and run six miles. No, they never would have done that.

Melanie Avalon

It's really crazy hearing that marathon story. It's crazy just as a general theme in life, how many things we do today are based on really arbitrary, like random things. And it just becomes so important. And if we look back to the origin, it's not what we thought. And I just feel like I like learn more about that every day. We just was so many things in life. So yeah, no, that's completely crazy.

Mark Sisson

Well you and I have bumped up against this in the community that we're in right now, in the diet and nutrition community. Go back to the 1980s when fat was the enemy, eating fat made you fat, and that the best possible meal you could eat was boneless, skinless chicken breast.  You know, and all of a sudden cut to today when, nah, I need the skin on the chicken because I want the collagen, I need the fat on the meat, I need, you know, it's like but we assumed that fat made you fat and that assumption carried for 20 years even though there was no basis at all in fact on that. So you're right, so many of our cultural norms are based on myths, it's bizarre.

Melanie Avalon

Here's one for you, not related at all to health and wellness, but do you know why we have margins on paper? This blew my mind.

Mark Sisson

to be able to make notes. Not why.

Melanie Avalon

No. So like back in the day, living conditions were so horrible, it was completely normal to just have rats in your house. So rats would like chew at people's paper at night and like take away the words. So they started putting margins on paper so you could allow space for the rats to chew the paper.

Mark Sisson

That's pretty interesting. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. But it makes total sense, yeah. Now it meant you connect the dots in reverse, right?

Melanie Avalon

You know, I've never looked at paper the same way again. Something else interesting about, just speaking about this evolution of humans, I was really interested to learn in the book that going back to when we were hunter-gatherers and you talk about the Hadza tribe that are still around today, apparently they burn the same amount of energy as like sedentary people do here.  And it's because we burn, you talk about this like inflammatory energy that people who are sedentary burn. Yeah, so what's happening with that?

Mark Sisson

Well, there's a couple of things happening with that. Number one, the Hadza spend a lot of their time not doing much, right? Low level activity. When I say not doing much, they're still walking around, but they're resting and sitting and walking. And then they do their persistence hunt, but they don't do the hunt every day, right?  So their average energy output isn't that much greater than an athlete training today or a sedentary person today.  Meanwhile, and we know this, you and I know this from the intermittent fasting community, from the metabolic flexibility community, that when you eat appropriately, you become more metabolically flexible, you become metabolically efficient, and you don't need as many calories to maintain muscle mass, build muscle mass, never get sick, have all the energy you need all the time, and most importantly, not be hungry.  So the converse of that is the people around us who go through life with this idea that I'm gonna see how much food I can eat and not gain weight. What's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight? And so people tend to overeat in a way that their bodies respond to in one of two ways.  Either they eventually gain weight, or in many cases, the body says, I'm not prepared to store this as fat, but I don't wanna, this is too much energy, and so I'm just gonna rev higher all day long. I'm going to increase the metabolism, whether it's the thermic-effective food, or whether it's just increasing basal metabolic rate to burn off the excess calories that I'm taking in.  And so these people can take in 3,500 or 4,000 calories a day, maintain body weight for a while, not be that active. And it's pretty much on the equivalent of what the Hadza would eat in a very otherwise active day. Humans do have sort of a shared baseline set point, but they can manipulate it somewhat with exercise.  But what we see with even elite athletes is that there's this compensatory mechanism where, yes, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna run for two hours, and in those two hours, I'm gonna burn 2,000 extra calories, but then I'm gonna get home, and I'm not gonna do much for the rest of the day.  So my body's gonna cut back on its energy expenditure so that at the end of the day, I haven't really burned that many more calories than a sedentary person, which is another reason why this concept of weight loss, running for weight loss, doesn't really work, because, as I said, you go out, you burn the calories, and typically the calories you burn as a non-elite runner, as an avid jogger or a person who just incorporates running into their lifestyle, you go out and you burn calories, but most of them are sugar calories, most of them are glycogen stored in your muscles.  And so you get home, and not only do you tend to overcompensate by overeating and consuming carbs, you actually carbolode on a regular basis as a result of that, but then you compensate throughout the rest of the day by doing less.

Mark Sisson

Maybe you choose not to go outside and rake the leaves, or you choose to not walk your dog the mile that you normally walk the dog, but now you walk them down to the mailbox and back. Or your kids say, hey, dad, let's go out and throw the football, and you go, eh, not right now, I gotta rest up for tomorrow's run.  So there's all these compensatory mechanisms that, in many cases, they're not even conscious decisions, they're unconscious choices that we find ourselves making that ultimately wind up having us expending really, at the end of the day, no more energy than the average couch potato might expend.

Melanie Avalon

It's so crazy. And I think it really speaks to the power of the input side of things. So what you're eating, which especially I think we see that effect with intermittent fasting, how powerful it is compared to the trying to burn off the calories with exercise and things like that.  And also even with like, GLP ones, regardless of the controversy around them, I think they do show one thing they show that people eating less seems to be effective for weight loss.

Mark Sisson

Go figure, right? Yeah, but I think that's the greatest thing I learned from initially from Primal Blueprint and then from Keto and now from Accommodation of Keto and IF is that I don't need that much in the way of energy. Like I surprise myself on how robust I am and how much muscle mass I maintain on 30 or 40% fewer calories than I consumed even as recently as 15 years ago.  And it's just a testament to a couple of things. Number one, the quality of food you eat, the quality of the calories, the amount of protein you take in, but also the ability of your body to access stored body fat on a regular basis without skipping a beat, not noticing that you're hungry or hangry.  I mean, that's one of the most magical feelings there is, is to not be tethered to hunger, appetite and cravings. It is the best. It is, yeah, it is the best. And I wish I could give that to people. That's the superpower I wish I could give to people because it's so freeing, yeah. And, and, and, so now let's tie that in with walking. So walking is an energy efficient exercise.  It is 100% fat burning for almost everybody unless you walk so fast with a weight vest on uphill that you, you know, you start burning glycogen. But anybody who goes out for a walk is burning mostly fat. And in the book, we give a number of metrics on how to determine what your fat max heart rate is. Like what's the heart rate?  The maximum heart rate below which you are burning 90% of your calories are coming from your stored body fat.  And, and, and in that regard, one of the reasons that walking works so well for people trying to lose weight is whenever you do encounter a hunger episode rather than walk to the refrigerator to grab a snack, go outside and walk 15 minutes and feel your body releasing its adipose tissue and combusting it as fuel. And you will come back from that walk a little bit more energized and less hungry.  So it's an amazing hack, if you will, I hate that word but it's amazing hack for, for hunger.

Melanie Avalon

I have a two-part intuition question related to this. So one relates to this and one relates to the shoes, but they're both intuition. So you do talk extensively in the book about this Fat Max concept, and listeners definitely get the book.  There's so much information in it that we're not even remotely touching on, but there's a lot of ways to determine your level and measuring it, and there's all these things.  And so my question is, because you do say in the book that even you emphasize the importance of really monitoring that number so that you don't go above it in your training, and you say that even going above it like a little bit can undo the benefits you were looking for, I think. I might be paraphrasing a little bit.  But so my question is, how intuitive, if we want to embrace this type of movement that will best burn fat, and we are going a little bit faster than walking, because I'm assuming walking will keep us in the okay zone, how intuitive can we be with that? Do we actually really need to monitor everything, or can we be intuitive?

Mark Sisson

Great question. So one example would be, if you're jogging, if you think that you like to run, you want to run, you're defending your right to run, and you want to go out once in a while and run, and you want to stay within that fat max fat burning zone, one way to do it is to go with a friend and carry on a conversation.  And as long as you can carry on a conversation, you're probably at or below fat max. Once you are huffing and puffing and unable to carry on a conversation, that's an indication that your oxygen consumption has increased, and now you're into burning glycogen and getting away from the fat burning zone. Now, I don't want to tell people that you've completely negated all of the benefits of a workout.  What I'm saying is it compromises that training effort at staying in the fat burning zone. It doesn't negate, it doesn't destroy it doesn't oh my god, I screwed up and now I have to go back to square one.  No, it's just the more time you can spend at that in a particular workout staying at or below that fat max heart rate, chalk that whole workout up, or that long walk or whatever it is to okay, today I just worked on fat burning, then when you go do your high intensity stuff, which I do recommend, then you can go all out.  And you'll that now that's the time where you can really like hit it hard and nail it. The problem with almost every runner and I was one of the worst. And if we first talked about this in primal endurance, I don't know if you read that book, Melanie, but that came out a bunch of years ago, a while ago, like when it came out.  And the problem is that people wind up training in what we call the black hole of training or the no man's land, where their heart rate is is too high to be promoting aerobic capacity, capillary perfusion, fat mobilization and fat burning too high for that, but too low to be really focusing on VO two max and power and strength and speed. So all you're doing is practicing hurting.  And so, and it just makes me want to cry. Because I see these people who are out there huffing and puffing every single day. And they never get better. They never improve. And you'd say, well, you know, at some point, you stop improving. Well, look, if you're, if you're that slower runner, two things are going on. Number one, you better improve.  Because theoretically, you're doing this because you want to get better at your life, you want to run faster times in your 10 k's, your marathons. And if your whole life is based around, well, I do, and I hear this a lot, I do six marathons a year, I'm like, okay, that's interesting. You know, what, what's your personal best? Well, I've run 345, 344, 342, 346.  And my thought process is, first of all, I was a career runner, I ran 100 miles a week for seven years, I've never run that long in my life, I never spent that much time running in my life. So God bless you for hurting that much.  And number two, if you're not getting better, something isn't working in your program, why would you go repeat, no offense, a bad performance over and over again, just what to collect more hardware? I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

Mark Sisson

And in the meantime, you're getting injured, injured, you're courting injury, you're not losing the the body fat you wanted to lose. In fact, what happens with a lot of these types of runners is they, they shift their body mass from they decrease their, their muscle mass, and they increase their fat, even though their weight stays the same, they become what we call skinny fat.  Running is catabolic running tears you up. There's no question about it. So every workout you do running, running tears you up. Yeah. Now you go to the gym and you can build some of that weight back. But walking is anabolic walking is at the very least anti catabolic walking does not tear you down, it builds you up.  So you'll even see the best bodybuilders in the world who are very careful about not losing a single bit of muscle like this, they work so hard to put their muscle on. They'll walk after a workout to burn fat, they won't run. No way they won't run, but they will walk after workout because they know that it's not catabolic.  It is, it's at the very least anabolic at the very least it's preserving muscle tissue while they're burning fat.

Melanie Avalon

And to that point of people putting themselves into this seemingly unnecessary suffering, we do know there's this endorphin high and you talk about the different neurotransmitters in the book and it reminds me of the work of, I don't know if you know Dr. Loretta Bruning, but she's done a lot of work and I've had her on the show a few times about the different neurotransmitters and why we have them and like, but basically their beneficial role like serotonin and dopamine oxytocin.  She doesn't even talk about endorphins in her books because she emphasizes that the point of them is they're in a response to like pain and a problem. So they're not something we should be like seeking to increase.

Mark Sisson

So, you know, how did we animals in general evolve endorphin? Well it's probably to maintain a calm, peaceful attitude in the face of death or in the face of a life or death moment. So you know, you've tracked a beast through the heat of the desert all day for three and a half hours and you failed to kill the beast, endorphins.  Rather than lie down and wallow and die, the endorphins give you a little bit of sense of hope, a little bit of peace and calm, like okay, you know, try again tomorrow. Endorphins are released when, I hate to say it, but you see these nature shows where the lion is eating the zebra while the zebra is still alive, endorphins.  That's what endorphins are keeping the zebra from, you know, eventually the zebra says, alright, it's over, I'm going to die a peaceful death, endorphins. So the seeking of these endorphins is a, again, a false promise. It's like trying to recreate, chasing the high as they say, right?  So the first couple of times it's like, oh my God, it felt so good after the run and eventually you chase that high and the next thing you know is I was chasing the high and I got injured because I, I mean this is, this is, I didn't talk about it in the book, but this is what happened to me at the end of my running career. I was so high on endorphins.  I had five days in a row in 1980 when I ran 20 miles each day and each day I ran 20 miles faster than a previous day and I was so in the zone and so high and I wasn't recognizing that I was in a life or death situation and I wound up getting injured to the point I got hip tendonitis that never, it didn't resolve until probably 30 years later and that was the end of my, my, my elite running career.  Now, when I say elite running career, I could, I could still run really well as a human being, but I couldn't participate at a world-class level anymore and I couldn't train that hard because of what I'd done to myself and part of it was a result of the, not just the endorphins, but it was the injury that I got from the shoes that were, here's a story for you.  I'll take a side step here and say, when I first got my thick cushioned running shoes, they felt great. I ran a lot in them and I got severe chondromalacia, severe knee pains and I sat my senior year of college out cross-country season, walked around campus with a cane until I got orthotics.  I was a miracle cure with orthotics, okay, so I get these orthotics and now the orthotics are raising my arches up enough that the overpronation that I was experiencing from the shoes without the arches, that was prevented and so I ran for a few more years with orthotics until my hip gave out because what had happened was the cushioning and the lack of proprioception and input to the bottom of my feet,

Mark Sisson

the initial problem went all the way up to my knees.  I fixed that by putting a wedge in my shoes and then when I wedge my shoes and it bypassed my knees, it went up to the hip and this is what we see and this is part of the, one of the chapters has to do with footwear and why we get injured and why modern running footwear is so bad for people and it's definitely, and it's even bad for people who are walking and we'll talk about that.  Your foot needs to feel the ground, it needs, the foot needs to sense the texture and the tilt of the ground underneath in order to inform the brain of exactly how to orchestrate the kinetic chain from the bottoms of the feet to the point where the brain now says, okay, here's how much we scrunch the arch around that rock or here's how much we bend the toes over that stick we're walking on.  Here's how much we roll the ankle out a little bit to take pressure off the knees from having to bend sideways. Here's how much we bend the knee and it's normal, Sagittario plane forward and back. Here's how much we rotate the hip to absorb the shock. Here's how deep we bend the knee in order to absorb the shock of this jump.  All of this information comes from bare feet, from these perfectly formed organs that we have at the end of our legs, these feet that are our main contact with the universe. They're our main contact with the ground, with the universe and our feet want to feel everything underneath in order to orchestrate this perfect kinetic chain.  You put thick cushioned stiff sole shoes that enclose the feet and scrunch the big toe against all the other toes instead of allowing it to splay outward which is what it really wants to do and the next thing you know you you you bypass all that important information and the brain has to guess okay I guess I bend the knee sideways I don't know I guess I you know tilt the hip a little bit to absorb the shock but without that important sensory information people get injured you know an injury it's an injury is your body's way of saying you're doing it wrong so if 50% of runners get injured every year they're doing it wrong something's happening but that they're doing it wrong and I'm here to say nobody gets injured walking like unless you're you know hiking on a on a rocky path and you slip on a whatever but but generally walking nobody gets injured in fact when you're injured running how do you recover from your running injury you walk

Melanie Avalon

I'm having a flashback now, and I will say, the section in the book about the shoes, I don't even, okay, I don't like wearing shoes, I don't ever wear now, I don't ever wear running type shoes. I don't like my foot to feel constricted, so I mostly wear sandals, so we can talk about that.  But I'm having flashbacks to high school or college, and I wore these shoes, I think they were Skechers, and they were called Tone Ups, and they were supposed to like make you, they're unstable I think, so they're supposed to make your muscles better, but they actually really hurt my knees. I was getting flashbacks to that.

Mark Sisson

example of of a marketing hype that now here's how those came about this is really interesting so in the early 2000s there was a movement toward minimalist footwear I was an early adopter of minimalist footwear I was the original one of the original guys wearing the five toed shoes the Vibram five fingers I had 20 pair of them in my closet I had different colors and different styles I wore them everywhere to my wife's chagrin weddings and funerals you name it I was this is what I wore a lot of people were like-minded a book came out that year called born to run and that's where I got my title born to walk because I'm trying to refute what Chris McDougal wrote in born to run he's a great author and he's a great storyteller and much of what he writes about the book is accurate and one of the things he writes about is that modern footwear modern shoes are too thick and they are causing runners injuries so a lot of people went to to buy minimalist footwear there were several companies startup companies in the 2008 910 era and minimalist shoes were all of a sudden really big and people read his book and they they said wow I'm a good runner I'll go out and run seven miles my first run in these thin thin thin flat flexible shoes well people got injured they got injured at alarming rates because they've been spending decades running in thick cushioned shoes with their toes and feet atrophied and all of the work being done from their ankles up and now they put on these minimalist shoes expecting their arches to work in a way without any arch support that they've never done before expecting their toes to work in a way they hadn't really worked out and so people got injured and so there was a there was a point here where there was a backlash against minimalist footwear and people said well you know it's just it seems like it's not working well it didn't work because it wasn't sold appropriately should have been sold okay walking these shoes a lot if you're gonna run in them run a quarter mile the first day a half a mile the next time you run but do not under any circumstances go out and run hard in these until you have spent a year training your feet what happened was there was a backlash against the minimalist shoe movement and because footwear is such a huge industry a number of people said oh here's our chance if minimalist footwear doesn't work we're gonna make maximalist footwear and that's where MBT Maasai basic training shoes came in that's where Hoka got started that's where you know Nike and New Balance and Adidas and they all started making thick thick thick cushioned running shoes as as literally a knee-jerk reaction to the minimalist footwear movement having been inappropriately sold at the wrong time so Skechers comes along and they say okay if the concept of the minimalist footwear movement was legit which was we want to work your feet more we want the muscles of your feet to be working more and so we're gonna put them in a thin shoe with lots of room for the toes to move around and that'll strengthen your feet Skechers said what if we put your feet on a Bosu ball and now we don't now you're working the muscles of your feet but you're working them in a different way so it was a interesting idea but the execution was horrible and like you said so many people got lower back pains they got because again you remove all of the haptic sensory input to the bottoms of feet now you really remove it now it's really thick and rocker and now the shoe is forcing you to walk in a certain way and your brain has to guess like okay how much you know how much do I roll my ankle or how much do I have to bend my knee sideways to absorb the shock of this or or my lower back is is is hurting because my stabilizer muscles are overworking because I've scrunched my big toe against the other the other toes in the shoe and I've disengaged my big toe from my glute let's take a sidebar here Melanie let's talk about the big toe or what we call the great toe and the glute bodybuilders have recognized this for a long time there's a direct connection between activating fully activating the glutes and having your big toe be able to abduct to pull itself away from your feet So in the gym,

Mark Sisson

they will say, the saying goes, great toe, great ass. And what that means is, that's why you see bodybuilders and weight lifters and really serious people about lifting, taking their shoes off on days they do deadlifts and squats and lunges and things like that, because they want to engage, they want the big toe to splay outwardly in order to fully engage the glute.  They want to build the glute, the glute's one of the largest, strongest muscles in the body. You want to engage it. And if you're wearing shoes when you do this activity and you're compressing the big toe against the other toes, squeezing it against the other toes in a shoe or even in a tight sock for that matter, you are not able to fully engage the glute.  And then what happens is, when you do the work, when you do the heavy work of a squat or a deadlift even or any of these other lower body focused movements, when you do that, you disengage the big toe from the glute. And now the stabilizer muscles near around the glute have to take on some of the work. And that's where you start injuries there and you start to get problems.  So the big toe needs to splay outwardly. It needs to be able to what we call abduct. Abduct is taking it away from the body. Adduct, ADD, is pushing it into the body. Toes need to, they want to splay outward. They should splay outward. So barefoot is always the best way to go. But in the absence of barefoot, having a five-toed minimalist shoe is the second best choice.

Melanie Avalon

Speaking of the shoes and constricting the toe, that was another completely, I think, arbitrary thing. You talk in the book about the narrow shoes going back to peasant times and being rich or not.

Mark Sisson

Yes. So in the days of old where there were caste systems and there were peasants and there were nobility, peasants wore wide toed shoes. They wore wide toes because they were out in the fields working. They needed their feet to do work.  The foot was critical to any movement they did, whether you're plowing a field, mowing a field, gathering wood, chopping trees, whatever it was, you need a wide base to initiate whatever action it is.  Meanwhile, the nobility wore thin, tight, pointy shoes for no other reason than a fashion statement to tell the world that they were nobility, that they didn't have to work, that they were not peasants. And that's kind of how this, I mean, you go back to the Ming Dynasty and they were binding feet.  I mean, you've probably seen some of the horrible photographs of women's feet who were bound from birth and wind up looking like pointy triangles with no toes at all. That's the worst and highest iteration of binding feet together. But shoes do that. Bunions. People come to me all the time, oh my gosh, Mark, I'd love to wear your shoes, but I have bunions.  And I'm like, well, okay, I have a lot of people who wear my shoes whose bunions no longer bother them, like at all. They've regained function in their feet. One of those people is my daughter-in-law who at 19 had bunion surgery on one of her feet, didn't have it on the other one.  And now she's the marketing director for Palluva and she's kicking herself forever having had bunion surgery because her other non-surgical foot is completely fixed. So bunions, and people will say, well, but Mark, you know, bunions are, they're genetic. They run in my family.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.

Mark Sisson

bad fashion choices run in your family or good fashion choices depending on if you get wearing Jimmy Choo's or Manolo's. But bunions are a result of bad footwear. Everybody is born with perfect feet. I don't care what they look like. I don't care if they're flat or whatever. Everybody's born with a perfect foot and a perfect kinetic chain, birth defects notwithstanding.  And this perfect kinetic chain works for you. So you may say, well, I have flat arches, I have duck feet, I have knock knees, I have wide hips. I don't care. As long as your feet can sense the ground underneath you, your brain knows exactly how to orchestrate your kinetic chain to absorb shock and impact trauma and ground forces perfectly every time you walk.  But it has to have access to that information without having that input from the bottoms of the feet to tell what you're walking on, whether it's cobblestones or dirt or grass or a rocky trail or sticks, whatever, the brain has to have that information in order to inform your particular kinetic chain how much to scrunch the arch, how much to bend the toes, how to roll the ankle, how deeply to bend the knees, how much to rotate the hip.  All of these things, they work perfectly. And you look at babies, babies have perfect feet, right? They're almost V-shaped, right? You look at the bottom of the heels, the bottom of the V, and then they go outward. Like, oh my God, they're so cute and they're so perfect. Well, we put them in cute little Mary Janes or cute little Nikes.  And the next thing you know, kids have foot problems and have shoe problems. Well, bunions as a result of a lifetime and not even that much time. I mean, when my daughter-in-law had her first bunion surgery, she was 19. She already had bad bunions at the age of 19 from footwear, not from genetics. You know, you'll get a genetic predisposition.  We talk about this in the intermittent fasting world a lot, right? You have a predisposition to storing some amount of body fat, maybe a little bit more than other people. So you have to be cognizant of that. But in general, your body works the same way everyone else's body works. And so in terms of intermittent fasting, it'll work for you.  It might not shed, it may not get you down to, you know, 4% body fat like it would someone else. But it'll definitely work for you if you tweak the knobs right. Same with footwear. If you are able to encourage good foot health, good foot form, resilience, strength, realignment at an early age, your feet will serve you for a lifetime.  And when we talk about feet serving you for a lifetime, one of the reasons people die, and this is a typical scenario, you know, somebody is 80 years old, they get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and they trip over the cat, and they fall and break your hip. And that's the beginning of a cascade of bad events, right? They go to the hospital, they get pneumonia, and they die.  All of these things happened initially, because maybe the foot wasn't strong enough to withstand, to catch yourself from tripping.

Mark Sisson

And maybe your balance was off because you hadn't done enough footwork in terms of the realm of balance to be able to even maintain good balance. Maybe you hadn't done enough outside work, footwork, walking, and lifting weights, so your bone density was compromised because you didn't do that work.  And there your bones, which would not have otherwise broken in that fall, now were so brittle because of lack of activity, that you broke the hip when you fell. It's this chain of events that starts with the feet. And my message, you know, my new mantra, my new mission is to change the way the world looks at foot health as being critical to overall health.

Melanie Avalon

I'm so glad. I was going to ask you about the slipping and falling. So I'm so glad we touched on that. I'm just so happy right now, Mark. OK, for a few reasons. One, the bunions thing, my dad had surgery for it. My grandmother had surgery. I was always told it was genetic. So I was like, am I just waiting? Like, is it going to pop up in my feet? So that's good to hear.  And then two, just to touch back on the tone up Skechers thing. One of my favorite things about having like podcasting and having this show is when I have an epiphany from something that I was wondering, you know, like decades ago forever. And and then like I'm who would have thought like two decades later, I'd be talking about toneups right now. And now I understand why I was experiencing that.  Another another shoe question. So the reason I was coming back from Vegas was I was hosting on the red carpet. Actually, no, last night, no night before. Wait, was it last night? Oh, biohack yourself. Yeah, yeah. Were you there at a forum? No. OK, it was fun. But I was I was hosting on the red carpet and all the things. And we were there all day. And we were talking about shoes and when to put our heels on.  And I was making a comment that I I actually love heels. I either want to be barefoot or wearing high heels, but are high heels horrible?

Mark Sisson

You're horrible, but Melanie, don't stop wearing them. They look fabulous.

Melanie Avalon

That's what Brad said.

Mark Sisson

He was like, they look fabulous. But yeah, they're the worst thing for your feet. So you earn the right to wear them if you spend a lot of time with either going barefoot or wearing toe spacers or going barefoot, walking around with toe spacers, or even better, getting yourself a pair of peluvas and walking around in those. Because the difference, you talked a little bit about sandals.  Do you wear the thong kind with the division between the big toe and the second toe? Yes. Okay, see, those are not great. So yeah, those are not helping you at all. You're better off going barefoot. What you want is, because what happens is you sort of have to scrunch your toes a little bit to keep them on under certain circumstances.  You know, they're not, I mean, they're better than, if they're wide enough, they're better than wearing, you know, regular restrictive shoes. Let me ask you a question. Did you see Ben Greenfield there?

Melanie Avalon

I so funny thing is he's coming on the show soon. We've had so many email exchanges. Yes. I met him for the first time in person

Mark Sisson

Was he wearing, was he wearing a paloubas?

Melanie Avalon

I didn't look at his feet. I wish we had done this conversation before. I would have been, like, staring.

Mark Sisson

He's so on board, he's so on board with Palouis. And I heard he was wearing him at the premier, but.

Melanie Avalon

He probably was.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, because we have, you know, great looking leather lace up Napa leather lace ups that look just like stylish shoes, you might find at Wolf and Shepherd or something like that.  Because we recognize pretty early on that once you understand not just the importance of toe freedom and and relaxing and realigning your strength at your feet, but once you get the feeling the comfort of this, you will not want to wear other shoes again, high heels accepted.  But actually, a lot of women who are who are wearing Palooas now are shying away from even wearing high heels because they just they recognize that the comfort, the discomfort of the high heels is so great that they're not willing to put themselves through that. So keep that in mind.

Melanie Avalon

Are any of the palubas, and this actually kind of expands on the flip-flop question, so you guys sent me a pair and it is enclosed. Are they all enclosed shoes?

Mark Sisson

Yeah. Do you know which ones we sent you? I'd have to check. And what do you think? What's your first impression?

Melanie Avalon

I don't normally put my feet except for heels into enclosed spaces. So it was a completely, it feels completely different.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, it's a novel experience for I get it. It's like, no, it's the difference between a mitten, a mitten and a glove.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I was like, this is a new, this is a new experience.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, these are gloves for your feet. These are gloves for your feet. So they take a little bit of getting used to for some people. Some people take to them immediately and go, oh my god, this is the best thing I've ever done. Other people say, they feel a little weird.  And then, you know, two days later, like, okay, I need to buy another pair because, you know, I needed another color and another style. So I think one of our sales objectives is to have people give them a day or two trial and, you know, before you say, it just still doesn't feel right. Or whatever. Because, you know, most people are okay with gloves, right?  I mean, most people would would put on gloves and say, yeah, I like gloves. Maybe even better than mittens for some certainly for some activities. Anyway, I'm just riffing here. We have a lot of styles and a lot of different uses for them, too. We've got we just introduced a trail shoe.  I've got a lot of off-road UTMB racing guys who are training in the shoe and loving it because normal racing shoes of that type are too thick and they can't feel the trail. They can't feel the rocks they're stepping on.  And so they tend to twist an ankle, partly because their shoes are too stiff and they haven't spent the time strengthening their ankle and partly because they can't feel what's going on underneath. So when they train with the peluevus, they feel what's going on underneath. And now when the ankle rolls, it rolls just enough, but also the knee bends just a little bit more to offset the forces.  And it's a great training tool for somebody who's doing that sort of thing. We tell people, you know, don't run in pelueus. Wear your running shoes when you go run, but train. Spend your day walking around in peluevus. Go to the gym in peluevus. Work. Spend the day working in peluevus if you're having to wear shoes at work.  And then when it's time to do your sport, put on your basketball shoes or put on your hockey skates or whatever it is you're putting on. And your feet will be stronger, more resilient, and they will thank you for having done that.

Melanie Avalon

No, I am so excited because I think so the order of my experience with the Paluvas and your book is you guys sent me the Paluvas because when did you launch the company?

Mark Sisson

Oh, it's been a year and a half.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so I think it was around the time you launched. It was a while ago. And I hadn't read this book yet. I didn't have any of this education. And like I said, I don't even normally wear, like I pretty much just wear sandals and high heels. So I didn't understand, I did not understand until I read your book and talking to you now and all the things, I'm just like, wow.  Anytime it's applicable to my life, I need to be wearing these. And there are so many people in my life who just need these, like this could change the world.

Mark Sisson

No, I think you change the world. And now these are walking shoes. And, and, you know, again, I was the it's not a coincidence that I wrote the book born to walk on the heels pun intended of the shoe company because I'm so adamant about people walking but I'm adamant about them people about people walking well, walking with good form.  Now I will share with you today is day 14 of a total hip replacement for me. I had my hip replaced 14 days ago. I am I'm going to say 95% recovered. I thought it was going to take six weeks or eight weeks. I am 95% recovered two weeks into this. I did 40 minutes on the elliptical last night. I did yesterday morning. I did three miles uphill on a treadmill. I'm wearing the peluvus.  Now here's the important part of this. You know, I had a traumatic surgery, right? If they cut my the side of my hip open, they yanked my hip bone out, sawed the end of it off, put a medical metal L piece on it, reamed out my hip socket, put a ceramic cup in there, stuck it back together and sewed me back up. The next day I was I walked about a half a mile a day later.  I walked about a half a mile in peluvus in downtown Vail, Colorado. The next day I walked a mile in peluvus and I've been I've been increasing my output. But the important thing is with the peluvus, I am able to execute a perfect gate almost immediately because I'm waiting the heel and then rolling off the big toe.  We talked earlier about this big toe abduction, this ability of the big toe to splay outwardly. A perfect gate really requires that you roll off the big toe. And I'm I guaranteed my quick recovery.  And I'm going to I've already talked to my doctors about this is is in part due to the fact that my walk is not compromised by a restrictive shoe that is squishing my big toe against the other toes and causing me to over pronate and roll sideways off the shoe.  As happens in so many cases, you know, when you you angle your foot outward 15 degrees and then you kind of when you walk through it, you roll off the front instead of pushing off directly off the big toe. So I'm I'm really thrilled about and by the way, when I when I wrote to my surgeon and I said, I think we're going to revolutionize THA, which is total hip arthro arthroplasty.  He said, Why stop there? Why not? Why not knees and ankles and everything else? And I'm like, You're right. Exactly. So I think I think we're really I know we're really on to something here. I mean, we, you know, we already have tens of thousands, many tens of thousands of customers who are extremely satisfied, who buy multiple pairs, whose lives have changed, who are.  And in your case, Melanie, if you like to walk outside, that's the best use of palovas for you. And I have, I live in a building in South Florida, I told you Dan Buettner lives in my building, but there's a lot of sort of accomplished individuals that live in my building.

Mark Sisson

My wife has probably 15 friends that are between the age of 60 and 70. Many of them walk six to eight miles a day. All of them are walking in palovas.  And all of them at this point would not have another shoe to walk in because the the ground feel the the engagement of the full leg engagement, not just a glute, but every muscle up the leg as a result of this ground feel as a result of this toe splay as a result of this minimalist notion of the of the footwear. The ability to articulate toes.  I mean, we walk on cobblestones here and we call it foot candy. It's like it's it feels so cool to walk in cobblestones and and have it be put a put a smile on your face. You know, when you walk outside and you've had shoes on all day and you take your shoes off and you walk in grass and you can't not smile, right? Like you step in grass and all of a sudden the world is wonderful, right?  If you're barefoot, that's sort of the feeling we wanted to recreate with with palovas. We wanted to get this sense of when I'm walking, I want to experience the universe. I don't want to necessarily.  I mean, I sometimes I'll listen to a podcast, but most of the time when I'm walking, I'm experiencing the wind on my face, the sounds around me, conversations going back and forth, smiling at people as they walk by. This is this is real world, real time, real life experience. You know, all we have in this life is now. Yesterday didn't really exist. It happened, but I only remember it.  And tomorrow's not here yet. All we have is now. And so the more amount of time you can spend sensing the moment and appreciating the moment as a result of your tactile communication with Earth, I think the better off you'll be and the happier you'll be.

Melanie Avalon

This is so incredible. I have decided I am giving these to everybody for holidays. Yeah, this is absolutely incredible. And I just I found the one that you guys sent me and now I just lost it. It was the the women's it's one that came in all pink. Oh, the women's strand trainer. Yes. Wow. Okay.  So quick question about when people so people order palubas for themselves, a few quick questions about practically implementing these and a clarification question about the intuition. So, so if people were in palubas, do they have to worry about concentrating at all on their walking form? Or is this going to make them intuitively walk correctly?

Mark Sisson

I think that's it. I think you intuitively walk better. Think about your walking form. And if you've had, if your form has been compromised by years of wearing bad shoes and your feet are deformed, take it easy. Obviously, you know, walk around the house a little bit the first day, keep them on for an hour, see what you think, notice how your feet feel.  In many cases, what we tell people is if your feet slide right into your pelubas, you want these shoes. If your feet don't slide right into these pelubas, you need these shoes. So many people's feet are deformed from years of wearing narrow restrictive shoes or from the bunions or from, you know, loss of communication with their feet.  I mean, sometimes it takes people 10 minutes to get their pelubas on the first time to get each toe into the appropriate socket. That's an example of complete loss of toe awareness.  Like you've like the fact that you can't tell me that your toes are in each individual socket tells me you've lost communication with this most important, one of the most important organs in your body that is your main connection with the universe. So many people have tiny small toes, right? Their little toe, their pinky toe looks like a vestigial organ that's going to shrivel up and fall off.  It's been so, it's been so relegated to being squished against the next toe. No, you want to, you want to articulate that you want to, you want to separate it, you want to get it out there. I mean, there's a reason that 20 million pairs of toe separators have been sold in the last couple of years, the toe spacers. I think women in general know that their feet are messed up.  And so lots of women take their shoes off at the end of the day, they put on their toe spacers, they watch Netflix, you know, for two hours, and then they go to sleep. Well, that's a great start.  But I'm saying what if you lived during the daytime, you walked and you ran errands and you dropped the kids off at school and you went to work or whatever you do, you did the laundry, you did your, and the whole time you're wearing either barefoot or you're wearing pelubas.  So every step you take, you are reinforcing this positive realignment and strengthening and increasing the mobility and the resilience of your foot passively. Like you're not running, you're not doing specific exercises. You're just living your life, walking around a lot in pelubas or barefoot. Like I said, I'd rather people go barefoot, but it's just, if you're outside, it's just impractical.  You know, so much of our environment is hardwood, floors, marble floors, tile floors, pavement, concrete, things like that. We designed the pelubas to be, to give you the sensation of walking barefoot on a putting green when you're walking on a sidewalk, right? So it's not as squishy squishy at all, but it's also not thin, thin, thin.

Mark Sisson

So you feel everything and you're calling upon your metatarsal head and your fat pads to absorb all the shock. No, just a tiny bit of, just enough protection and cushion so that you could walk. And this was my, by the way, this was my litmus test so that I could walk 10 to 12 miles a day in Europe on concrete with these shoes on and feel better as a result of having done it.  Not get bone bruises, not, because the old shoes, the old five-toed shoes, the ones that I originally talked about that I wore, I couldn't walk two or three miles without getting bone bruises and then really having my feet suffer. So that was one of the first things I did when I reinvented, redesigned this concept from the ground up.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. Okay, that explains a lot. So the first time I put it on, yeah, I had issues like getting my toes in and I thought I needed a bigger size. So I did get a bigger size. I don't know if it was both things happening there. Like I need a bigger size and I've lost intuition of my toes and my little toes gonna fall off.

Mark Sisson

Don't let that happen.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. Oh my goodness. And what about socks? Do people wear socks with these?

Mark Sisson

Absolutely we make socks we make a different size of socks and different we have a no show sock for people who don't want to have people see their socks we make an ankle sock and crew sock. They're all five toed of course you can't wear regular socks with these.  That wasn't your problem no no okay yeah yeah but but having said that i don't i don't wear socks at all and so i made we made the shoes we made the shoes for people like me who don't wear socks prefer not to wear socks so all of the shoes are.  available to be worn without socks it's just that some people insist on wearing socks and and you know, sometimes we have these try on events where people we will bring.  You know, a full kit of every size that people are gonna try on the shoes and then see if they like them, but if multiple people are going to try on the same shoe we we bring socks for everybody to try on that's just a sanitary thing but.  You know, some people absolutely want socks when I was in veil it was zero degrees when I was rehabbing my hip day one I had socks I wore socks underneath regular shoe and walking through.  The little town of veil on the cobblestones in zero degree temperature was fantastic it felt great they gave me crutches they told me you're going to need these crutches for a week at least i'm like don't tell anybody I throw them away after the first day i'm like nope.  Don't need crutches sorry this is not happening just further evidence to me of how critical the big toe is and toe splay and toe articulation is to orchestrating a good walking gate and then once you have that the more you walk the more you reinforce.  That upright stature that good posture that good mood that you know everything coming full circle back to the concept of walking born to walk, we are born to walk and I want people to walk as much as they can with good form with good footwear and you know extract the greatest amount of contentment enjoyment fulfillment and pleasure out of life as possible.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I am so excited right now. I think my game plan, now I'm looking at your shoes and you have so many more since when I first ordered. So you had this one at the time, but I think what I'm gonna get is the Miami casual loafer for women's for the day, like when I'm outside. And then you have a slip on. What does it mean that the heel goes down?

Mark Sisson

Yeah, you can either put the, you can, I have two of them, I'm wearing one of them right now. I just had to drop a package off down at the front desk in my building. And I didn't want to go down barefoot, I would, but it's, you know, not allowed, it's inappropriate here. So I jammed into my, my zen, these are my zen slip-ons zen, zen, they're quilted. And they have a flexible back.  So you can either pull the back up and keep them cinched and on. Or you can, it's a collapsible back, you could just step on it as if they're, I don't know what the, what the other term is, like more like a sandal. Like you don't, you don't have any, any back support or anything around it, but it goes both ways.  And when I was, this is the shoe I wore in Aspen, when I, in Aspen, in Vale, when I was, I'm going to Aspen next week, when I was in Vale, when it was cold.  And because I, I just come out of surgery, I mean, I couldn't really bend over to tie my shoes or to, or to cinch my shoes on, but I could step into them and step on the collapsed heel and walk around town with the collapsed heel and socks on, it was, it was great.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. This is my shoe. Okay. I'm excited. I'm so excited.

Mark Sisson

Yeah, so I want you to keep me posted because you're someone I need to have, understand the concept, embrace it, love it, and promote it. Because I think you get, not just the science, but you get the sociology behind it, the anthropology behind it, and it's concurrent with an intermittent fasting-type lifestyle.

Melanie Avalon

I'm just so grateful and so excited because literally, I was thinking about this like today with your book. I'm like, nobody's talking about this.  Like I know there are other companies making like minimalist shoes and things like that, but like this book that you have, this education, it's absolutely mind blowing and then people can, well, A, read the book and make lifestyle changes, but then you have a practical solution where it's not like we're gonna have to, like we just talked about, people can just start wearing palubas and it's gonna really like help change things.  It's ironic because you're talking in the book about one of the problems with running being the low barrier to entry. So anybody can do it, but we shouldn't be doing it. And it's a lot of problems. This is low barrier to entry in the best way.

Mark Sisson

Absolutely. We had a team meeting today. In that meeting, I reinforced to my team that we are an education company that sells shoes.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Well, listeners are probably dying to get a pair for themselves and for their whole family like I want to do now. So you're so kind. Listeners can go to paluba.com. That's P-E-L-U-V-A.com and use the code IAPODCAST to get a discount on your order. So definitely take advantage of that. That's the code IAPODCAST at paluba.com. Oh, by the way, where does the name come from?

Mark Sisson

Oh, so, you know, I've been very adamant about the word primal. I have 20 trademarks. Primal Kitchen, Primal Blueprint, Primal Health Coach Institute, Primal Fuel, Primal Fitness, boom, boom, boom, all down the line. I went to get primal footwear and somebody had carved out the word primal and there was no other iteration. So we had to make a word up.  So we looked through all of the languages and come to find out, and I have no affinity for Portuguese, but in Portuguese, PE is foot and luva is glove and you put them together and it's pe luva.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing!

Mark Sisson

And it sounds cool, doesn't it, I mean, you got to admit it's a great it's kind of a luxury sounding name and we really like it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, you did a good job because a lot of times like made up words or vague words, they're hard to remember. Like ever since I learned about it from Brad, originally, I've never like, I've never like had to scratch my mind to like remember what it's called. Well, thank you so much, Mark. I appreciate your time so much. I was sad. I heard that you were at the, uh, eudaimonia conference briefly.  I was there too, but I did not see you.

Mark Sisson

No, I just I came down. I literally drove drove up from Miami Beach for the afternoon to just check it out. We were thinking about maybe exhibiting there next year. So I wanted to get just sort of the layout.

Melanie Avalon

I'm definitely gonna go next year. So hopefully I will see you there. And thank you again so much. Literally, you're like one of my favorite people. You're honestly one of the reasons I'm doing what I'm doing today. I've been following your work since forever. Like the early blog days. And I just can't express enough gratitude for everything that you do. So thank you.

Mark Sisson

It's my pleasure and thank you so much for that acknowledgement. That's really important to me to hear that people took the message and are, you know, the term paying it forward doesn't do it justice, but I appreciate the fact that you do what you do.

Melanie Avalon

Well, thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day. Enjoy Aspen, and I will talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, Melanie. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes.  We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 400 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, Avalon X.  And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment.  To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So, pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 401 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here.  This is going to be a really sentimental, emotional episode for me. I'm here today with Vanessa Spina on her last episode on the show, Vanessa. Although, actually, we're going to have to have you come back if you're down as like a random guest co-host every now and then if you want to in the future, maybe.

Vanessa Spina

That would be so nice because I was just thinking as you're talking like, oh my gosh, this is going to be my last time saying hello, everyone. So yes, I would love to come back from time to time. That would be so much fun.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, we should do it. We should have like a reunion episode. Yeah, that would be fantastic. It would be cool if I could orchestrate a reunion episode. Although, I guess, well you know Cynthia. Cynthia knows Jen. Do you know Jen? You know Jen? Yes. Wait, do we all know each other?

Vanessa Spina

Yes, we should have a four-way. Yeah, Cynthia was just messaging me this morning because she re-released my podcast, the episode of her podcast that I was on. And so she was messaging me this morning about it. So yeah, we're all, I don't talk to Jen as often. I talk to Cynthia probably more often, but I did meet Jen earlier this year. So yeah, we all know each other.

Melanie Avalon

and you and I have not recorded together since I met Cynthia in person, which was so exciting. Yeah, how was that? Oh, it was so exciting. It's so weird to meet somebody in person who you know so well and have talked to so much and then meet them in real life, you know?  I feel like people, especially it's weird because like I've seen her on obviously Instagram and social media, so I know what she looks like, but I feel like people still look in real life sometimes different. Like she's so she's so like petite. She was doing an interview for her podcast, like a live podcast, so I went and watched. Oh, that's fun. Yeah, it was it was really amazing.  It was so nice to meet her in person. So now I just have to meet you. You want to come to the US?

Vanessa Spina

I'm sure it'll happen at some point, you know, I'll be so nice, but that's so fun. You got to meet Cynthia and fun for her too

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so but in any case so Vanessa you have a lot of well Okay, so a few things a you have a lot of really intense amazing life change is happening with your your boys and homeschooling And all the things and so this just wasn't going to work out so much anymore for you know Everything that's going on in life, which is completely understandable.  I've had the time of my life doing this show so many laughs I feel like we've tackled so much especially content related to protein Which people have so many questions about and I just feel like you've brought so much to the show and I've had so much fun And I'm gonna miss you so much

Vanessa Spina

too. Yeah, it feels bittersweet. It's been so amazing to do this with you. I never co-hosted a podcast with anyone else, so you've been just the most amazing host and co-host. From the beginning, you made it such an amazing experience. It was so exciting joining with you, doing our cover art, countless evenings that we spent together giggling and sharing our various experiences and Q&A with listeners.  I'm so thankful for the experience. Honestly, it was really magical and special. I'm so thankful to you for inviting me on to co-host with you. I've just enjoyed it so much. You were just a dream co-host. I couldn't imagine doing it with anyone else. I'm much more of a solo act to myself.  To join forces with someone else, I don't think it would have happened with anyone else but you, but you just made it so amazing, such a beautiful experience. Our listeners, I'm so thankful to the listeners. Such an incredible community that you've built here from originally starting the podcast with Jin.  For me being a listener over the years and then hearing Cynthia take the torch from you was really great. Then it was such a thrill to take the baton from her mixing analogies with torches and batons. It's been amazing. I think you've been just here all along with all these different co-hosts.  I think that's a fun thing in itself that you get to bring on different co-hosts who can share different backgrounds and different experiences. I'm glad that I got to be the protein one because I know over the years there were a lot of questions about intermittent fasting and protein. I think it's really been an exciting time, especially in the last year.  Because of certain studies in particular, we've really answered the question of whether or not you can actually do intermittent fasting without compromising on your lean body mass, without risking your lean body mass and being able to maintain it as well as grow your muscle.  Even if you're eating within a certain window, there's actually research that just came out from Dr. Luc Van Loon's group where they showed with intermittent fasting that you won't compromise any of your lean body mass or any of your muscles. A lot of those alarms and fears, I think, that were raised previously had a lot of people concerned about maybe they should stop intermittent fasting.  We also had the other research by also Dr. Luc Van Loon and Dr. Jorn Tomellen that came out in December showing that if you eat 100 grams of protein in one sitting, those amino acids are just circulating and available in your peripheral blood supply for up to 12 hours and probably longer. It doesn't matter when you eat your protein.  You don't have to be so concerned or worried or stressed about eating it within a certain anabolic window. What matters is you hit your protein goal for the day and you can do that in one meal or two meals or a multi-course meal that you have or however it is that you structure a day.

Vanessa Spina

The bottom line is that intermittent fasting and building and maintaining your lean body mass and muscle don't have to be in conflict with each other. I think that was the big question that a lot of long-term listeners and intermittent fasteners had, especially in this community.  So I really feel excited that we're in a time right now where the research is providing the answers because I think there was a little bit of conflicting information on both sides before, but I think really in the last year, it's really been settled.  They say science is never settled, but I think it's been settled to the greatest degree that it could be, at least for now, until new research comes out changing things. But I feel really good about that and I feel really grateful and thankful and appreciative about my time co-hosting with you. So it's really been an honor to be co-host with you.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I echo back literally all of that, everything you said in the beginning about you being a dream co-host. And yes, we honestly just had the best time. It shall be missed. And I agree so much about the protein stuff. And so actually for today's episode, I reached out to listeners and asked for questions for you AMA style for our last episode together.  So this actually speaks to what you're talking about, the amazing audience and all their amazing questions. We got a lot of questions for you. So shall we jump in?

Vanessa Spina

been to some of them? Yes, I would love to. That sounds great. And thank you to all the listeners for sending in your questions.

Melanie Avalon

So actually the first one I'm going to ask relates to what you were just talking about because you were talking about how the view on protein has evolved during the course of even being on this show. So a similar question, but for intermittent fasting specifically, Judy says, okay, seriously, how have your views changed on intermittent fasting from when you first started the podcast to now?

Vanessa Spina

I love this question. Thank you so much for submitting it. I think it's such an important one. And I really this is where I'm at completely with it. I mean, first of all, you're gonna laugh, but I've fallen back in love with intermittent fasting.  And I started so after we went to Greece, I decided I had been reflecting for a while, you know, I was doing a lot of carb experiments and things over the summer. And I realized that I just wasn't feeling optimally. I wasn't feeling as energetic as I was before. I wasn't feeling as focused as I was before. I was feeling hungry all the time.  I also was having these like aches, body aches and things I don't normally have. And I realized it's just that sort of a moderate to higher carb approach or lifestyle just isn't it for me. So I decided to fully go back to high protein keto. And I jumped back on doing that by going back into intermittent fasting and doing one meal a day. So I've been doing that now since we got back from Greece.  So it's been about, I would say about six weeks now. And I'm loving it. Like it's just been amazing. I'm completely back in love with intermittent fasting, I would say like 99% of the days since then I've just done one meal a day. I usually open my eating window at 4pm and fast until then. And I feel amazing. Like I just have all the energy. I feel great during the day.  I'm able to get all the things I need to get done. And I'm not distracted by work or feeling hungry. And I also realized that ketones are a big thing for me. It's a big part of intermittent fasting for me. And I don't think that carbs in themselves are inherently bad in any way. And I don't want that to come across. I think different people have different lifestyles and things that work for them.  For me, I feel optimal with a pretty low carb approach, like low to very low carb intake. And also doing at least two meals a day or more fasting, I get some expression of ketones. And what I figured out is that it's not that carbs I think are bad for me, especially healthy whole food carbs. It's that they are anti ketogenic for me.  And I think it's for me, the ketones that help me feel so satiated combined with protein. So when I have more carbs, it starts to make me hungrier.  So I did an episode about this on my podcast, and I had such an outpouring from listeners who said they had been experimenting doing the same things that I was, and adding in more and more carb, and they were feeling hungry all the time throughout the day.  So I think that that was kind of leading me away from the intermittent fasting is that I was just hungry all throughout the day because of the carbs. So I went, you know, back into ketosis, back to doing, you know, OMAD, and I feel amazing. Now to your question, what do I think about intermittent fasting?  I really think that if you look at the body of evidence on what intermittent fasting does compared with caloric restriction, there's a lot of overlap between the two.

Vanessa Spina

And I really think for myself that for the most part, intermittent fasting is a great way of doing caloric restriction and a lot of the benefits from caloric restriction or that are attributed to intermittent fasting come from the caloric restriction that happens very effortlessly for a lot of us when we do intermittent fasting.  But I do think that there's just so much overlap between the two that a lot of the benefits are coming from that caloric restriction, but it's just way easier to do caloric restriction in this way. I do think there's a little bit of magic, a little bit of a magical aspect to it, which does come from the ketones.  And I think that when you are doing intermittent fasting, closer to the more expression of ketones towards the end of the fast, in terms of autophagy, it's pretty much awash compared to most of the research that I've seen. If you compare caloric restriction and the autophagy from that, and you compare intermittent fasting and the autophagy from that after a 24 hour period, it tends to even out.  So, you know, I think it's just a really amazing tool for doing caloric restriction and getting some ketones. And for some people, it just works. It's quite amazing. And if you're one of those people, you know it and you absolutely love it and what it does for you. And I definitely feel that way, but I also don't let myself get too carried away because I also look at what the research is showing.  And I think, you know, there are some benefits to it that can just be attributed to the caloric restriction. And I think there's also some of it that come from the ketosis or ketogenesis that does get sort of entered into and amplified, especially if you're not on a high carb diet, you're going to get, you know, more expression of ketones.  So that's kind of where I'm at when I look at it and the most honest, most honest way.

Melanie Avalon

many things that I love here. Okay, so it's great because you actually, you actually answered Nadia's or Nydia's question. So I announced in the post that you were leaving. So her first part said, what? Question mark? Question mark? No. And then she said, how are you feeling now that you got back to keto? We are going to miss her. So you answer that question.  It's so interesting to me because it's interesting how people really can function. People feel better on different macros. And I'm curious, did you ever try the fruit only carb approach? I'm just curious.

Vanessa Spina

What do you mean, like just fruit and meat, kind of like a carnivore?

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, like when you were doing carbs, you were doing.

Vanessa Spina

So yeah, I had started experimenting with adding more and more carb in throughout the summer because I was experimenting, especially with targeting it around my workouts and also targeting it a little bit in the last week of my cycle. And this was partially influenced from Dr. Stacy Sims work and some other experts that I interviewed.  So I had added in, when I added in my pre-workout meal, I was having some oatmeal with protein powder in it. So that was like the main carb that I added back in and then the rest were really from fruit. I did try some rice a few times and I just found that the higher carb, the more carb I added back in, the more fat I had to scale back on. And that's, I think, harder.  I think very, very low fat than it is to go very, very low carb. Because if you're having a piece of salmon, it's like there's protein and fat in there. And I don't know if you've ever had protein, I mean salmon, that's very low fat. It's just not very good. It's hard to get proteins that have zero fat in it, whereas it's a lot easier to just not have carbs.  So I think at some point when you start adding back carbon, you're going to get to a point where you're adding in carb and you also have fat in there. So you're not fully keto and you're not fully high carb, low fat. You're kind of somewhere in between. And that's kind of what I was finding is I never tried just only fruit. I think it was like, but most of the carbs I was eating were fruit.  And for me personally, it made me very hungry. And I think, again, it's because they're anti ketogenic. So there's just no way that I could maintain ketosis or much of it at all, even with intermittent fasting when I was adding those carbs in. And so it was combining in a way that made it harder and harder for me to do that fast throughout the day. I was fighting against myself. That makes sense.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, completely. And it's interesting. So like, for me, so I will have salmon, but I won't have it every night, but I will just basically not, I'll just never add fats to anything. And then in general, my proteins are lean. So it's, you know, the scallops and a lot of scallops and bare moondi and the occasional salmon, occasional fillet, mignon.  But I find if I just stick with those proteins and like a lot of them, then I don't really have to think about the fat aspect. I just chalk it up to like, it all kind of works in the end. I feel more like, so for me, it's actually easier doing fasting with high carb, low fat. I can do that every night. And I feel satiated. I feel it feels sustainable compared to when I go keto.  After a while I get like, it gets hard, which is interesting. So then I need to like, bring in the carbs. So it's just really interesting how different things work for different people.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, and I still have fruit, like I still eat, like I just had a protein shake with strawberries and blueberries and raspberries, and I had some dried apple before that. So like, I'm not removing all fruit, but it's just the amount that I had been bringing back in.  I just feel so much better going back, you know, lower, like cutting out the oatmeal, cutting out any of the other carbs that I was having. I do have more legumes now, but it's just, I'm finding that once I went back, you know, cutting back on the carbs, it was just so much easier to get back into that pattern of like fasting throughout the day and not thinking about food at all.  So I don't know, for some people, it's probably like the fasting leads the way. And for others, it's like the macros and how they feel lead the way, but they can, they kind of compliment each other. I think especially keto and fasting compliment each other so well, because they're such a similar state.  So I think as for me personally, it just makes it effortless to do, you know, the longer intermittent fasting. And I just wasn't finding that when I was doing higher carbs. So I feel really happy that I've like found my way back here and it just feels right.  And I'm glad that I also experimented and I think it's so important for people to unapologetically experiment and not be concerned about identifying with a different diet or a different lifestyle. You know, psychology shows us that identifying with different lifestyles and dietary approaches actually makes us more successful with them and makes us commit and, you know, be more compliant with them.  But I also think it's a double-edged sword because you can get into a situation where you're like, I can't go and try high carb for a summer or I can't go and, you know, do this or that because I'm keto or I'm this or that. And you kind of sometimes identify with your lifestyle. And I think it's so important to experiment all the time.  And every time I do these experiments, I always find my way back to the way that I feel optimal. And I want everyone to find that optimal for themselves. And the only way to do it I think is to try a lot of different things. So I really hope that, you know, people feel encouraged and supported to go out and experiment with all these different things.  Try high carb, moderate carb, low carb, high protein, low protein, you know, even vegan carnivore. Try everything and you'll find where you really feel your best.

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much. And I think it's really awesome that both you and I experiment and we both landed or we tend to land at the opposite sides of the spectrum, which just goes to show that different things work for different people. So although I feel like the one commonality with us is we're always high protein. Yes. High protein and fruit. Yes. I love my fruit.  Which speaking of Denise, she says it is still hard for me to believe she can consume over 200 grams of protein with only one or two meals. It is so difficult for me to get in even 80 grams. So are you actually getting in that much protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

So it's funny because since I went back to doing the OMAD, I'm definitely not hitting 200 grams anymore. And so I just did an Ask Me Anything special. It was actually the AMA number 20 and episode 636. And I talk about exactly what I eat in a day. This actually just came out this past Monday.  And I talk about how I get to that 200 grams of protein, because I actually had this question from some other listeners in my podcast group as well. And so I really go into detail on the exact meals and everything that I have when I hit that 200 grams. But since I've gone back to OMAD, I have not been hitting that much. I'm a lot closer to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.  So it's definitely come down from that. And I feel great hitting that number. I think 200 grams of protein per day is not necessary by any means. I think there's definitely diminishing returns after you pass the point of 1 gram per pound of body weight. And for listeners in Europe, that's closer to 1.6 grams of protein per kg. And I just think, yeah, for the most part, I'm not hitting that.  And I think it's probably better for me to be closer to that 1 gram of pound per pound of body weight. But I'm just one of those people who loves protein. And I found all these different ways, you know, like making protein bread.  And I've been doing all these recipes lately on my Instagram and on my website, which are all like high protein recipes, like the cottage cheese viral, the viral cottage cheese flatbread. I made that also into a pizza crust, you know, making frozen yogurt, which is super high protein and sugar free, high protein cheesecake.  I recently made high protein cottage cheese pancakes, like all these different recipes helped me to really hit pretty high on protein. And I'm also someone who loves eating protein. So the reason that I would get to 200 grams of protein in a day for me was just because I enjoyed it.  It wasn't because 200 grams was conferring more benefits for me than hitting around one gram of protein per pound of body weight. So once you get there, a lot of research shows that there's diminishing returns in terms of building muscle and also on satiety and appetite. So protein is the most satiating macronutrient.  It secretes so many satiety hormones that act on the brain as well and are secreted by the gut. And it helps us to feel full because we have to get that protein every day. But once you get to that amount, there's really no need to go above that. Like I was just doing that because I really enjoyed protein, not because it was making me feel that much fuller or anything else.  I also have these chocolate protein puddings. I make a protein ice cream. So I just have all these tools that I've developed over time and recipes that really helped me get a lot of protein in. And of course, protein shakes, all of these things helped me to hit that protein target.  And I often just overshot it just because I liked it, not because getting to 200 grams was conferring any additional benefits.

Melanie Avalon

While we are the same there, I mean historically, I just love protein. It is just so good. We actually have some specific questions about just nuances of protein. So Tammy wants to know, she says she gets so confused. 100 to 200 grams of protein. Is that six ounces of fillets a day or two chicken breasts? Can you let us know how many ounces a day we should eat? I guess of food.  And actually, and then also related to that, just to like discuss all of it, Denise wants to know when figuring out grams of protein and meat, poultry, seafood, et cetera, should it be weighed before cooking, raw or after cooking? The weight does change quite a bit. I normally estimate six grams of protein per one ounce of cooked protein.

Vanessa Spina

Okay, so I actually have this graphic that I created on my social media. So if you want to get, let's say 30 grams of protein in one meal, whether that's a snack or a meal, because you want to make sure to get that at each of your meals, you don't necessarily have to hit one gram of protein per pound of body weight.  That's really, I think, optimal, but as long as you're getting at least 35 grams of high quality protein, if it's animal sourced, it can even be 30 grams. But if it's not animal sourced, then you definitely want to get at least 35 at your meals. This is just per meal, what that looks like. So I think that makes the most sense in terms of explaining per meal as opposed to for a whole day.  So if you're having, for example, chicken breast, as you were asking, that's about six ounces of chicken breast is 30 grams of protein in grams, that's 175 grams of chicken breast. And you always want to measure it raw because I know that's confusing for people, but usually we always go by raw because that's how food is sold. So that's how you're able to measure and quantify things.  Whereas if you measure it cooked, obviously you lose a lot of the water, but it would be much harder to compute things if you were measuring things cooked because it's going to be variable. Whereas when you have the raw weight, you can just see what it is when you buy it. So it's easier to go by raw weights. If you were having eggs, that's 4.6 to 6 whole large eggs. It's a lot.  30 grams of protein is 4.5 to 6 large eggs, whole eggs. If you're doing that in egg whites, it's about 8.8 egg whites or almost nine egg whites. If you're having salmon, that's 5.8 ounces or 167 grams. If you were having plain yogurt, it's one and a half cups of plain yogurt. If you were having beef, that's 5.2 ounces or 148 grams. If you're having turkey, it's about 6.3 ounces or 180 grams.  If that was in bacon, it would be 9.2 ounces or 260 grams because obviously bacon is a lot more fat. It's like protein and fat, probably half and half. It's delicious too. Yes. And if you were having whey protein, it's 25 to 30 grams because whey protein is about 11% leucine. So 25 to 30 grams of whey protein is serving as 30 grams.  It's the most straightforward with whey protein because it's 30 grams in weight and it's also 30 grams of protein. That's some examples in ounces. I do have this posted on my Instagram and it is a little infographic with the exact portions to optimize muscle protein synthesis. I hope that that's helpful.  Again, with the weights, always go by raw because that's usually what it is going by when you're looking at macro breakdowns because that's how food is sold.

Melanie Avalon

That was insanely helpful. Also related, so you're saying, you know, we don't necessarily have to have that 200 grams of protein a day or that, so two questions here. What do we need to have minimum for the protein? That's my question.  And then Michelle said, we are going to miss you, Vanessa Spina, with the little like tragically crying emoji, the one that's like crying and like its mouth is like open, it's like so upset, that emoji. I'm really gonna miss this too. I know, she says, good luck with everything, with the emoji, with the hearts, we love that one. The smiling emoji with the hearts. I'm jealous you live in Europe.  It seems amazing over there. I guess I wanna know more about the 30 grams of protein we need to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. I've been making myself eat a little something before the gym lately, but it's usually just a protein bar with 15 grams of protein, but then I have about 40 grams of protein after the gym and animal protein. Is that okay?  Or do I need to have more protein before my workout? Thank you. So my question is, what minimum would you put on total protein intake and then do we also need to have this 30 grams at a time to stimulate muscle protein synthesis and then her situation with the gym?

Vanessa Spina

I mean, I hate to say it, but the RDA for protein is the minimum amount that you can get away with without really, like, to avoid disease, but you can also actually build muscle at that, at the RDA, which surprises a lot of people. And I recently got to interview, as you know, my hero, Dr. Luke Van Loon. He had some things to share about protein that I had really never considered.  And he, he's really, his main message was that your body adjusts to whatever protein you give it. So in some ways, you know, I think he believes we make a little bit too much out of, you know, the protein question, which is kind of blasphemy in some ways, like he's a protein scientist and he studies is, there's definitely a amount that's optimal and it's not the RDA, but the RDA of that 0.8 grams per kilogram is probably just what you need as like a floor to avoid disease. And he said you can actually build muscle at the RDA level too. So it's not optimal though, right? So if you want optimal, then that is, according to the research, closer to 0.72 grams of protein per pound of body weight, which is about 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that's like where you want to be if you are someone who is focused on building and retaining all the lean mass, that's where you want to be. So you know, you can portion that up throughout your day, but a lot has been made about getting at least 30 grams of protein per meal. I think maybe a little bit too much may have been made of that. Now that I've interviewed so many different protein experts on this topic, I think the latest cutting edge research is showing us that what matters is that you hit your protein target for the day at the end of the day. And it doesn't need to be within a certain anabolic window. It just needs to be somewhere in the 24 hours since you did your workout in order to optimize your muscle growth. It doesn't need to be 45 minutes after your workout as some people make it out to me. There's a lot of people who do have these very specific recommendations and break it down further into women. And I've talked to some very seasoned scientists on the other end whose opinion, this is not my opinion, but their opinion is that a lot of times because the fitness space is so crowded, there are people who will have a very specific message because it's a way to garner more eyes on their work. And it's not necessarily what the research is actually showing in terms of outcomes. So I think that it probably places unnecessary stress on people. And that's what I love so much about the research by Dr. Jorn Tremelon and Dr. Luke Van Loon is they found as long as you get the protein in, if you eat a hundred grams of protein at one meal, it's just going to circulate in your peripheral bloodstream. It's not going to turn to fat. It's just going to circulate the amino acids are going to circulate and be available to be taken up by your muscle tissue, by your organ tissues. And it's just going to stay there like floating around until your body needs it.

Vanessa Spina

And at some point it'll all be taken up. And, you know, it doesn't have to be before you work out, after you work out, it just needs to be sometime within 24 hours of your workout. After 24 hours, there is diminishing returns in terms of the impact that you would have on your muscle.  And the other key message that Dr. Loon especially conveyed was that the most important thing is actually getting the resistance training done, because as much as protein can help us from losing muscle mass, the main signal really is the resistance training for building muscle. So the protein helps, but you have to get the resistance training actually done.  So that's, yeah, I think that addressed most of your questions.

Melanie Avalon

One quick question from me. So you're talking about the amino acids just circulating. Do some of them, though, turn into glucose?

Vanessa Spina

So, he said, and according to their research, they just keep circulating in your bloodstream until they're taken up by different tissues. And I asked him very pointedly.

Melanie Avalon

it's different, right, than what we've been, like what we've been saying.

Vanessa Spina

And their research is the only research that did muscle biopsies for 12 hours, measuring muscle protein synthesis. And Dr. Tramellon said at the end of the 12 hours, it was still going. So they stopped taking muscle biopsies, but he's very sure that it wasn't just stopping at 12 hours because that's when they stopped taking the biopsies, right?  So the protein, the amino acids, don't get turned into anything else. I asked him very pointedly, at what point does it turn into fat, right?  Because he said only in the situation where someone is massively over-consuming protein as well as fat and carbohydrate, but massively over-consuming it to the point where their body couldn't possibly use it, that's when the body would potentially turn it into fat, but way after it would have already turned the carbs into fat and the fat and taken the fat up.  So it's only in an extreme scenario where the protein is consumed in such an excess in addition to other energy calories as well. And he said it could potentially be stored at some point, but what they've seen is that the amino acids just stay floating around.  And some of it is taken up by your muscle, some of it is actually just taken up right away by your gut even during the digestive process as fuel for your intestinal cells. And the rest is utilized as building blocks for your different enzymes and hormones and tissues and skin, hair and nails, our entire body is mostly protein. So it makes a lot of sense.  And that's really what the latest, most cutting edge research is showing.

Melanie Avalon

So that's different than what we were thinking about, you know, what were they saying like 60? There was a six in there like 60% 60 60% what what what six am I thinking of? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina

It was, I believe, Dr. Don Lehman said every 100 grams of protein, I think 60 grams of it. Becomes glucose, yeah. He'd almost have to like have them both on and have a debate because I think they both firmly believe what they believe. But I think that it would be really interesting to ask, you know, Don about his thoughts on Dr. Tom Ellen's work because it just came out, you know, in December.  Actually, now it's coming up on a year, oh my gosh, it feels so recent to me. But it is the most recent research and it's the most extensive because most of the research that was done prior to that, they only measured rates of muscle protein synthesis for like four or five hours. And I also asked them, all right, so we know it takes 30 grams of protein to initiate muscle protein synthesis, right?  Where this leucine threshold is triggered and the level of leucine in your blood rises by two to three grams. And this is what is this anabolic muscle building signal that the body receives. So I said, what happens when you eat five grams of protein or 10 grams of protein or 15 grams of protein? Like, are you still stimulating muscle protein synthesis, but just to a lesser degree?  And he's like, that is legit the next 30 years of research. So you don't know the answer. It just seems that once you get to 30 grams of protein, that's when you get this big amplified signal and below that you just don't get a signal. Like nothing, maybe like something's happening, but it's nothing that we can pick up or that we haven't been able to pick up yet.  So we'll see maybe in the future, we'll find out. But so far it seems that you really do need to hit at least 30 grams of protein. So going back to what we were just talking about, you know, if your goal is, if your target for the day is like 90 grams of protein, it's very easy to break that up into three times 30 grams, right?  If it's a hundred grams of protein, like three times 33 or 34, and you can also do it all at one meal because you can have a hundred grams of protein at one meal and it's all going to just turn into circulating amino acids for your muscles to take

Melanie Avalon

up. Awesome. Well, I am so intrigued because I'm, I'm like dying to know I want to hear this. I'm debated out between those two people. I mean, I know for me, the reason I started, like the reason I came to high protein, you were talking about how you just like the taste of it, which is the same for me.  And I, right after college, had this epiphany where I was like, oh, I could eat just lean protein and basically eat all I want. And I don't think it's going to turn into fat. So it was like my diet hack. That's when I fell into the rabbit hole of high protein. Okay. One more, one more protein question. And then I have some, we have some fun questions for you.  I mean, these are fun, but we have some non-protein questions for you. Brooke says I have a 26 year old son who is vegetarian, more than likely not getting in the protein he needs and not sure he really wants to hear my opinion on being vegetarian. What would be the quickest and easiest way to share with him the importance of protein?  I would love for him to listen to your podcast, but I know he won't. Maybe a specific research study, any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you. And I will say this is actually appropriate timing. So while we're recording this right now is the week I aired my episode with Dr. Michael Greger and literally had a moment where we talked about what he thought is the most anti-aging thing you can do.  Or he was saying like the one thing that, oh, it was the one thing that affects all the aging pathways. And he was saying to eat a low protein diet. So to

Vanessa Spina

further confuse people. Okay, I just want to say one quick thing on this that I learned in the last year, there's something because this was one of those things like we talked about haunted me. There's one thing that people think of as mTOR and then there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and the simplest way to break it down is eating protein, good mTOR, doing resistant training, good mTOR.  This is not bad mTOR. Over eating calories from fat and carb, bad mTOR, right? That's like you're signaling growth to the fat cells, you're signaling inflammation and growth to the wrong cells.  Signaling growth to your muscle is not bad mTOR and I think that people need to start thinking of mTOR that way and this is like my own thing so like it's probably very unscientific but this is what I have gleaned from so many interviews is that there is good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and people are so confused because they've been told that mTOR is bad for longevity and I think it's such a disservice because no one should be avoiding the good mTOR, the eating protein mTOR and the resistance training muscle building mTOR.  Does that make sense? Like you just don't want to be avoiding that because that's what's going to make you live longer because you're going to be stronger and more durable, right?  And the longevity research that we've seen where they are suppressing mTOR, so much of it is rodent-based and it has nothing to do, like we're not putting mice like on strength training programs and like having them build muscle, right?  Like it's, I think it's really really backwards and I hope in the coming years people start to disassociate the negativity they have around mTOR because there's good mTOR and there's bad mTOR and I really think that the bad mTOR is all just excess calories that's sending these growth signals but to the fat cells instead of the muscle cells. So just want to say that.

Melanie Avalon

really quickly about that. Yeah, please. I bet this is also related. I wrap a mice in, which is, you know, a longevity, potential longevity pharmaceutical compound. It acts on both mTOR complexes. But the reason people would low dose it for longevity versus the high dose is because then you can make it preferentially, hopefully just affect the quote good mTOR, not the bad mTOR, just a random fun fact.  So I learned that recently. That's awesome. But yes.

Vanessa Spina

back to Brooke's question. This is such a tough question and I had to sit on it and think, okay, what would I do if Luca came to me one day and said he wanted to be vegan just like I did when I was 17 and said the same thing to my parents.  And so, I mean, I don't think that's going to be so much an issue for me personally, which I know is not helpful, but every single day I say to Luca and my husband does this too, like eggs and beef and chicken, you know, protein is what makes you strong, especially things like eggs, which are so nutrient dense, liver, like all these things.  And he has taken that in and he will like be eating his dinner and he'll like flex his muscles and he'd be like, mommy, like look how strong I am because like I'm eating all my eggs and I'm going to be vegetarian. I would not get upset about it because I think the research shows that you can trigger muscle protein synthesis as long as you get more protein from plant sources and you combine them.  So I think some of the best combinations are like pea and rice protein together. And you just have to note that you need a little bit more. So usually you need closer to like, if you're, if you're having whey protein, you would have 30 grams in a serving. And if you're having a plant-based version, I would try to get 35 to 40 grams in a serving.  So I wouldn't try to dissuade him from the lifestyle that he's chosen because he probably has his reasons for it. And it's going to be very difficult to, you know, turn someone around from that kind of thinking. And I know from my own experience, no one could have like deterred me from the path that I had chosen.  I had to do it on my own, but I wish I had had this knowledge because when I went vegetarian, I was just eating carbs and fat. Like I didn't understand, you know, how to properly prioritize protein and eat it. And I think my journey would have been very different if I had, I also didn't understand about like really important things like B12 and choline, you know, so I would have kept eggs in.  So if there's anything you can convince them to do is to at least have eggs. Cause if not, you know, you can supplement with that, but it takes a little bit of privilege to be able to afford those kinds of supplements. So not everyone's in a position to do that. So, you know, eggs are very affordable and I don't think they hurt the chickens.  Like we have a lot of friends who like, and I say this as a former vegan, but like we have so many friends who have like chickens in their backyard and they get fresh eggs from them. And the chickens are happy AF and like the chickens lay the eggs and they eat the most amazing fresh eggs. And like Pete's cousins here, we go out to their, you know, farm and get their eggs from them.  The chickens are great. Like they're no one's like, they're all about it. The chickens are all about it. They are like, they're all super happy. You know, I'm sure there are situations like with industrial farming and stuff where the chickens are, you know, literally in like really tight cages and stuff.

Vanessa Spina

But if you get the right kind of eggs, you can support, you know, the farms that you want to, or even, you know, go to a local rancher or farmer and get eggs directly from them or farmer's markets. Like there's ways to do it where you don't have to, you know, be harming any animals.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really glad that you took that direction with the answer. Like, that was a really amazing, you know, like, like you're letting, you're, you're supporting the child doing what they want and also optimizing it to the best of within those circumstances. So awesome.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I definitely think that that's what I would do. And I don't think you should be worried because as long as they, you know, get that protein in, which you can do, and the research really shows it's optimal from, you know, animal sources, but you can get it in from plant-based sources too.

Melanie Avalon

Okay. You might have a similar answer then for this. So Stephanie, she has a few like rapid fire questions, but the first one is a little bit less than rapid fire. She says, Oh no, Vanessa, no, with one, two, three, four, five, six, six, oh, and she says, mom question, I know you only have boys so far. How can I help my 17 year old daughter with weight loss?  Would you take a similar approach with, with that? Where are you? Yeah. What would you do with weight loss with kids?

Vanessa Spina

I actually, I did a post on this a couple of years ago and it was like what I wish I could go back and tell my teenage self, you know, because that's really when I struggled. You know, I was going through so many changes, you know, hormonally, and I didn't know how to nourish myself properly. And I definitely was like overeating on the energy macros and I wasn't prioritizing protein.  I didn't understand how it could help me feel satiated. So, I was really on this like struggle bus where I just wasn't getting enough protein and so I craved energy calories constantly. And it ended up, I was a very active kid, even so, I wasn't able to keep up with it.  So, if I could go back, you know, I would have definitely related the importance of protein for satiety and optimizing my protein intake. And, you know, if you do it with animal proteins, like even whey protein, whey protein isolates doesn't have any fat in it. So, it's a great way to get protein in without adding extra calories.  But if I knew that and I had just optimized my protein intake, I would have experienced what I experienced now, which is effortless leanness. I don't have to work at being lean anymore because I optimized my protein intake and I have this self-regulating appetite.  So, if I would have taught myself that, you know, to really focus on adding in and I think adding in protein is easier than getting someone to cut back on other things or focusing on taking away and that protein, bumping up the protein, it just displaces the energy macros, right, naturally.  So, I would have done that and I would have focused on resistance training, you know, instead of just doing cardio because you build that metabolically active tissue and you're able to, I think, shift the way that you look at your body in terms of, like, women were often, you know, told to be as small as possible and that's really, like, the beauty ideal.  And I've learned since then, you know, there's a lot of different ways to have a beautiful body and to me, a fit, healthy body with some muscle, I think, is a new beauty standard that women are starting to embrace and understand more. So, you know, that's something that I would have tried to convey to myself, you know, being younger and probably what I would do also if I had a daughter.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. I love the concept of, you know, focusing on what you can have and what nourishes you and supports you and builds a strong body rather than restricting per se or what you're cutting out. Okay, she has other rapid fire questions. I think they're sort of rapid. Why did you move to Europe initially?

Vanessa Spina

We actually decided to go to Prague for a year and just travel, just travel around. And we like did that and really, really enjoyed it. And we mostly were just traveling around Europe because as you know, once you're over in Europe, it's like really inexpensive to fly to Italy and to Spain and to France. And you can really explore and you can even hop on like the train and go all over.  And so we did a ton of exploring and a ton of traveling. And all of a sudden, like COVID came along. And we had to kind of decide what to do. And I got pregnant. So it didn't make sense for us. Time to camp out. Yeah, it didn't make sense for us to like uproot everything, you know, during the pregnancy.  And then once we had our first son, Luca, you know, we really realized like how child friendly and amazing the culture is in Europe is really like children are front and center and really, really embraced. And that's not to say they aren't in North America, but I would say it's a little bit more so here where like there's a playground on every corner.  There's constant activities for children and for families. And it's like you can't walk 10 feet without bumping into a stroller. It's just so many people with children and families. So it's just a very, in terms of the culture, we find it's a great time to be here for us. And then I got pregnant again.  So, you know, anyone who's had kids knows like it's hard to do any like big moves or changes also in that time. So that's kind of why we're still in Europe. And, you know, we're hoping at some point, you know, we'll figure out like our next, like our, our plan.  But right now, just with like children, we love being over here, although we really do miss family and friends, but we're very fortunate that they come to visit a lot and we get to visit them too. So we'll see what happens in the coming years. But it's just been a really exciting adventure that kind of got extended with COVID. Yeah, we'll see what comes in the next years.

Melanie Avalon

Not the same situation, but kind of similar for me. I moved to Atlanta and I was just gonna come temporarily and it was right before COVID and then COVID happened. And I was like, oh, I'm just gonna camp out here for a little bit. Okay, her next rapid fire, number one way to get rid of aches and pains in an almost 60 year old.

Vanessa Spina

I would go for keto. I think keto has been proven scientifically to be one of the most anti-inflammatory diets and lifestyles. And I, one of the things I mentioned at the top of the episode is when I was eating more carbs, I was feeling achy. And it's not to say I had any kind of like full blown medical condition or anything like arthritis or anything like that.  But I just felt achy and I didn't feel good in my body. I also felt really headache-y often. And I hadn't felt that way since when I was like pre-keto doing high carb, I felt that way all the time. Like I just felt like I always had a headache or I felt like aches in my body. And going on keto removed all of that for me. And I think it has to do with what a low inflammatory state it creates for people.  And there's a lot of research on this. Like that it puts the ketogenic diet and the very low carb intake puts people in this very low inflammation state. So it could be something to research and look into and maybe talk to your doctor about.

Melanie Avalon

I would echo that. I would say looking at the dietary choices because it's really shocking. People's body could react with pain and inflammation to certain foods, and they might have no idea until they realize what those foods are. So looking at the food choices can be huge.  I know you're talking about keto specifically, but I'm just saying like in general as well, like trying to pinpoint your trigger foods. Also, I would throw in Avalon X syrup peptase. It's amazing for all of that. Okay. Have you tried pickleball? And then she says, I will miss you. That is so, so cute.

Vanessa Spina

I haven't tried it yet but I love tennis and I love racquet sports so like I see people doing it all the time on different TV shows and I'm like I really want to try that it looks super fun.  It hasn't taken off as much in Europe as it has in like the US and Australia and stuff so maybe it's coming but people are really big into tennis here so who knows it could be the next big thing and I will miss you too but you can catch me on the optimal protein podcast anytime or find me on social media and I'll be there.

Melanie Avalon

Perfect. Also related to Europe, sort of. Leslie says, I've always been curious, how many languages does Vanessa speak?

Vanessa Spina

Well, I wanna be really truthful because in terms of fluency, I would say English and French. I'm fluent in English and French. And I went to French school until I was in grade nine and it's like my family heritage as well. So my dad is French. So those I can speak fluently. And then Mandarin and Spanish I'm conversational in and I can read and write to a certain level. It's not fluent.  I'm not saying I'm fluent.

Melanie Avalon

How do you say intermittent fasting in Mandarin, do you know?

Vanessa Spina

I've never looked that up. Now I want to. That's so funny. It's such a specific language that

Melanie Avalon

How about French? La faste interment.

Vanessa Spina

French? Oh man, there's got to be a term for it because they have all these like specific terms, high protein, they call hyper protein, like hyper protein.

Melanie Avalon

like epic. Wait, what is it? What's the phrase?

Vanessa Spina

It's hyper protein, so it's like hyper protein. Okay, okay, okay, yeah. I bet they have like a special term for it. I want to know now also. Okay, it's the same thing. It's to fast intermittent. Makes sense. That tracks. Yeah, that tracks. I thought maybe they would have like their own term. In Chinese, it's jian xie xin jin xie. Oh, yeah.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm impressed you could say it. That's really impressive. Did you read that from Chinese characters just now?

Vanessa Spina

No, I use the pinyin, which is like the... Oh, it gave you like the phonetic? Yeah, it's like the phonetic pinyin is the phonetic version or interpretation of the characters. Some of the characters I knew like xie and shu, but I didn't know jian, qing. So like I said, I'm not fluent in Chinese and I don't speak it regularly enough, but because I spent so many years living there, I did pick up a lot.  And then when I went to university, that was my elective. So I took Mandarin, but I really miss it. Like sometimes I just go on Duolingo and like I do some Mandarin because I really, yeah, I miss speaking it. It's a beautiful language.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. That's impressive. That's impressive. I'm impressed. Okay.

Vanessa Spina

And I'm learning Czech, so that'll be my fifth.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, that's cool. That's cool, that's amazing. Anna wants to know, does Vanessa have plans to write another book on her high protein keto lifestyle she's been doing? Would love that.

Vanessa Spina

In the works, I am working on it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, really? I didn't even know that.

Vanessa Spina

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I am working on it.  I don't want anyone to I don't want to make any like announcements because it's it's challenging to get anything done these days The two babies but and the homeschooling which is like another reason why I'm just you know Continuing to do this was was not feasible and I as much as I'm like seriously sad about it And I'm really gonna miss this time, especially hanging out with you and all of our listeners But it is something that I do have planned and and I am working on so yeah, stay tuned It feels fitting that it should you know come out at some point

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, well, that'll be amazing. I will be there front row supporting. What about you? Oh, another book. I actually, actually, I did meet somebody recently and we might wanna do a book together. Forgot about that. So we shall see. There's just so many, like you were just saying, there's so many things that you have to prioritize. Okay, so two questions about red light for you.  Leslie says, I have and love Vanessa's red light therapy mask. I would love to know what her protocol is with the mask, which mode and duration, et cetera. Thank you. And then Sarah says, I would also love to know a protocol for red light panel, not the mask. There are multiple ways to use it, but I'm unsure where to start. And I said not the mask negatively. The mask is great.  So what are your protocols for both of these things?

Vanessa Spina

I actually wear the mask myself every week. It's the only way that I can really be consistent with my red light therapy because otherwise, I just don't have the time to sit in front of a panel. And one of the ways that you get results from red light therapy, it usually takes eight to 12 weeks to start seeing results, but you have to be consistent.  And that means at least like four to five sessions a week. So for me, the mask is invaluable because I just strap it on and I can be hands-free so I can do other things.  Like I can't operate heavy machinery, but I can like sit on the couch with my kids and watch them and also interact with them as opposed to sitting in front of a panel, like anyone who's done that knows you can't really like do much and you can't really see much. And you definitely can't be like on the couch or anything like that. So it's very helpful for me.  I also just started wearing the neck piece, which is something that I'm working on adding to my collection. So I've had so many requests for people who want the neck, the neck piece. Yeah, so it's like you've got the face and then there's a neck and chest attachment. So it straps behind your neck. It's doing the front?

Melanie Avalon

of your neck? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And your chest. Would that do your thyroid then? Maybe. Yeah, it could. That's the reason I first started doing red light was either for hair growth or thyroid or maybe both at the same time. So I used to shine it on my thyroid.

Vanessa Spina

Okay, I made a reel. I'm going to send it to you right now. I made a reel last week with me trying to get my red light therapy done with Damien and Luca crawling on me. And I'm wearing the neck piece so you can see what it looks like. But I've just started using it because I'm like, while I'm doing this, why don't I also do the neck?  You know, because it's it's also I mean, even really think about I did it more just for like, keeping the skin, you know, collagen rich and elastin rich. But yeah, so I wear the mask a lot. I use it way more than I do the panels. Now, if I didn't have kids, or I didn't have little kids, I probably be sitting in front of the panels because the panels are more powerful in terms of the power irradiance.  But the mask helps me actually get it done. And to me, that's better than nothing, right? So helps me to be consistent. So the crystal mask that you have, and thank you for purchasing it, has six different modes. And the one that I usually use is mode six, because it's red and near infrared. So it's got 630 nanometers and 850 nanometers.  And the other modes, like mode five and four, they basically just cycle through like mode five is like orange and a near infrared mode four is like combined, the red and near infrared. So I usually do mode six. And I usually do it for about 20 minutes. And that's like 20 minutes a day.  And for anyone who doesn't have the mask or doesn't have a red light therapy mask, and is using a panel, I usually have found that most people in the research, most people start seeing results when they do about 20 minutes a day. Depending on the body part, there's different dosing.  So you want to actually refer to your red light therapy panels manuals, like in my manuals, I've put the exact dosing in terms of minutes for each different like thing that you're trying to accomplish. So like the distance from the panel and the amount of time and it's all specific to the irradiance of power radiance of my panels.  So that's why you have to be specific with the panels that you're using, because if they have less power radiance, you may need to be closer, or do it for longer, or if they have more power radiance, which I doubt because mine have some of the highest power radiance on the market. But if that sounds like I'm bragging about it, I didn't mean it to sound that way.  But they truly do have quite a lot of power radiance.

Melanie Avalon

I'm supporting, I'm, I'm, I'm, what's the word, confirming this information? It's just facts.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, like your panel should feel like a day at the beach when you're in front of it, if it's really effective. And that's like a little takeaway. And you need to know the specifics for your panel because you want to avoid overdoing it because there's also, you know, this sort of bell curve, right, like where you can get, you don't get results if you do too little.  And you also don't get results if you do too much, because there's something called the biphasic dose response. So you want to hit at that sweet spot and you need to know it for the specific panel that you're using. So if it's not in your manual, you can probably correspond with the company that sold you the panels.  But I have specifically in my manuals every like the exact time, the distance, because red light really is a vitamin. So you want to think of it as dosing, you know, what dose do you need for each specific thing? And yeah, there's a lot of research and different guides available online as well that you know, people can find if they they just want to know how much you do.  But usually you don't want to do more than 20 minutes per day. So like if you're trying to target different different areas of your body, you're always going to get systemic benefits no matter where you do it on your body. But if you want to target different parts of your body, then you know, you want to switch it up.  So like if you're doing your thighs on Monday, for 10 minutes and your face and neck, you know, then Tuesday, you could do like your abdomen and you could do like your arms or something like that. If you're using it for like muscle recovery, muscle building, because it's really good for recovery and repair, you know, post resistant training, it's good for conditioning your body before exercise.  If you have like stubborn body fat areas, I mean, there's so many different things that you can use it for. So you really want to know like the specifics with your panel, but that's what I do with that with the the tonelux crystal mask.

Melanie Avalon

Just a really quick clarification question. You said you don't get the benefits if it's too low of a dosing, also if it's too much. Is it that you don't get any benefits if it's too much or that you stop getting more benefits? Yeah, you stop.

Vanessa Spina

don't get any. You undo the benefits? Yeah, which is really what's so tricky about it. And it's also really interesting because there's this amazing Danish study where they were using this red light therapy on women who had been treatment resistant to becoming pregnant.  And they use this amazing red light therapy panel that was like blasting their abdomen with like 20,000 joules of light, like just a red light, just so much. So much that my immediate thought was like, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response? Because this was so much. And yet, like 50% of the women in the study managed to get pregnant and carry their pregnancy to term.  So it was really amazing. And Denmark is one of the countries with Japan that's been investing a lot in red light therapy research because they have like really low fertility rates. So this research really astonished me. And I had a red light therapy expert who's also like a quantum physics expert, quantum biology expert. And I said, how did they not trigger the biphasic dose response?  And she says, she believes that people are so red light deficient, that it's actually pretty hard to overdo it. And that she believes in that specific scenario that those people maybe in that study were just so deficient that the 20,000 joules was not too much for them.  So joules is the unit of light when you're measuring the doses, which is what I was talking about earlier, like with the manuals or understanding your panels, it should be broken down by joules, you know, how many joules you're getting, which is a measure of like the surface area and the power radiance of the device and the proximity to it.  But yeah, a lot of research says that if you get too much, you get no results as well. But I think it's an area that we probably need more research in because we don't fully know what that is yet. But there's research out there which does show like what a good target is.

Melanie Avalon

wow okay that's really shocking to me but really helpful and by the way i saw your video it's so cute with your kids oh my goodness it's so interesting that they're not scared of you you know like i don't know i mean you look no you don't you don't look scary i mean i would be a little bit scared if i was a child

Vanessa Spina

I know. And it's funny because like Pete, the first time he walked in, I had the mask on. He was like, you get scared. No, he's like, you look kind of cute. Like it's kind of a cute mask. And I was like, I was joking about how like a lot of the masks, the red light, every mask are creepy looking like Jason, you know, Halloween.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, it's not it's not super creepy. I want to clarify I'm just saying like you don't look like a human You know so and I was always scared of robots when I was little so yeah

Vanessa Spina

Mine, I think, is kind of cute looking. I'm just gonna say. I've tested a lot of masks and some of them are like, they look like really creepy. So I think mine is okay. But yeah, I thought Damien, because he's 11 months old, I thought he might be taken aback but he just like smiled at me. He's all about it. Yeah, he was just like, he was lifting it up and he loves to play with the room.

Melanie Avalon

No wait, Lucas, Lucas is the one that's like really playing and laughing, right?

Vanessa Spina

That's Damien. He's 11 months and Luca is three.

Melanie Avalon

Wait, sorry, I'm getting oh my gosh. Sorry. I'm having a brain fart moment

Vanessa Spina

No, I know you know who Luca is.

Melanie Avalon

I know. Yeah, I do. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina

we're here. Yeah, maybe neither of them were, were scared. The first time I put it on Luca was like, what's that? But he wasn't, he wasn't scared of it. But maybe if it looked more creepy, like they would be so it's

Melanie Avalon

So cute. Oh my goodness. But you see the neck attachment, right? I do. Yes. I do. Yes. I got distracted by your cute children. Okay. One last question for you. And then a closing thought. Janelle says, what are Vanessa's Christmas plans last Christmas? Wait, it was last Christmas. You were in the hospital.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, we were just talking about that at dinner. We were saying because Damien's almost a year he's going to turn a year, you know, right before Christmas.

Melanie Avalon

When's his birthday again?

Vanessa Spina

like right before Christmas, December 19th. So we spent, and we were talking with my parents this weekend and they were like, do you remember last Christmas, we brought Christmas dinner to the hospital and we had Christmas dinner in your hospital room because we ended up staying at the hospital for two weeks because Damien had some complications. He's doing incredible now.  So, you know, all of that ended up, you know, not having any long-term effects, thankfully, but we did spend Christmas in the hospital recovering. We were there for two weeks. And so my mom made Christmas dinner and brought it with my dad. It was the cutest thing ever. Like they had all these bags and like oven mitts, you know, and they drove it all to the hospital with Luca.  And, you know, we had like a little square table in our hospital room and we had like a pretty nice hospital room, so we had a really cozy Christmas. And the hospital was filled with Christmas trees and Christmas lights. So it was, you know, a difficult time, but also one of the best times of our lives. So it was really nice reminiscing on that.  I can't believe it's been a year ago, but we're planning on spending Christmas at home with our family. So that's going to be really exciting because it's been a while since we've been home. So we're flying back to the US and we'll be there for a little bit.  And yeah, I'm really excited to be with everybody with all of like Luca and Damien's cousins and yeah, just to enjoy some really quality Christmas time. And I'm also ready for some time off. What about you?

Melanie Avalon

where are you going to be actually and this airs this is perfect because this airs December 23rd so a few days before Christmas I will be on this day Merry Christmas I know Merry Christmas I will be my family actually convinced me to fly to Sanibel Island in Florida oh my gosh I know for how long I'm gonna fly there on the 23rd and then be there the 24th 25th and then fly back the 26th that's really exciting are you excited I'm working on the travel skills um yes traveling is not my favorite thing and also I wanted to be cold at Christmas and like the beach seems like a different vibe but you know what I'll be there Elsa eternal winter I know and I need my snow no I am I am really I'm really excited about that so we will both be traveling for Christmas ah okay well one more one more comment from Alice she says Vanessa will be greatly missed but she is so busy with her family and her other podcast is there a new partner in the works and so I was trying to decide if I should announce I think I think we'll just make it a surprise because oh that's fun yeah I think I think that's what I was trying to think of that's what we did when Cynthia started and when you started and I think so do you remember if we announced you before hmm or was it like surprise like on the first day

Vanessa Spina

I think you did because I think I remember you like talking about me with Cynthia and Cynthia was like saying things, nice things.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's correct. I think I'm gonna make it a surprise this year. So we have a few episodes, like special episodes coming up after this with some special guests and then new co-hosts will be here. So yeah, I'm excited for you guys. Me too. I'm really excited. Definitely a new chapter.  It's gonna be a new, kind of like we were talking about each co-host bringing their own, you know, special thing to the show. I think it's going to be a completely new spin on things. Still, still very much intermittent fasting, just a completely new perspective, completely new.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, it's like you're going back to the roots of the podcast, but also going to completely new territory.

Melanie Avalon

that's a good analogy or whatever that would be in words yes but in any case this was okay this is so amazing I'm so glad we did this episode yeah as a fun fact for listeners so because we we made the decision about Vanessa leaving and we'd already recorded all of our episodes and then Vanessa's like we should do a goodbye episode so I'm really glad we did this it felt so cathartic and you know I'm like really glad that we did this and I just appreciate you so so much I adore you I love you podcast bestie forever we'll have to bring you back for a reunion or a special episode in the future

Vanessa Spina

I would love that. This was the most beautiful goodbye episode that I could ever ask for. I feel like it just tied a pretty bow on all of it. And again, I was, I had been so honored to be your co-host. It was an incredible experience. And I learned so much from you. I just, it's, it's something I will always cherish. And I also cherish our friendship and I love you as well. And I love our listeners.  And I'm so thankful that I got to be a part of your lives. You can always find me anytime on the Optimal Protein podcast. I am really excited to continue my work there. If you ever want to come over and, you know, listen to me talk about protein and optimizing that. But I'm so honored that I was able to be here. So thank you so much for, you know, inviting me to, to join you.  And I'm so, so, so excited for you and for listeners of the podcast for this new co-host. I think listeners are going to be absolutely thrilled. So it's really exciting.

Melanie Avalon

I could not agree anymore. And I also learned so, so much from you. It was an amazing, incredible, beautiful chapter, which I will reflect fondly on until the day I die. Not to be dramatic, but yeah, this was amazing. So Merry Christmas to you and happy holidays.

Vanessa Spina

Merry Christmas. Yes. Happy holidays to all the listeners. I hope everyone has a wonderful break and yeah, it gets, I'm sure everyone's going to be ready and excited to go with intermittent fasting starting in the new year or so.

Melanie Avalon

That's like the time that's like the time to really jump in when people are feeling it with the motivation for sure.

Vanessa Spina

Yes. And there's nothing like intermittent fasting for a good reset. I can speak from recent experience.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Well, I will talk to you later.

Vanessa Spina

you in the future. Okay, sounds good. Thank you so much listeners. Bye for now.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much for listening to the Interimism Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team.  Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Welcome to Episode 400 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

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FOOD SENSE GUIDE: 

Get Melanie's app to tackle your food sensitivities. Food Sense includes a searchable catalog of 300+ foods, revealing their gluten, FODMAP, lectin, histamine, amine, glutamate, oxalate, salicylate, sulfite, and thiol status. It also includes compound overviews, reactions to look for, lists of foods high and low in these compounds, the ability to create your own personal lists, and more.

STUFF WE LIKE: 

Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!

LINKS:

Zero App Episode on the IF Podcast

Interview with Megan Ramos

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to episode 400 of the intermittent fasting podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, Avalon X.  And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath ketone analyzer and Tone Lux red light therapy panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment.  To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time and get ready for the intermittent fasting podcast. Hi everybody and welcome. This is episode number 400 of the intermittent fasting podcast.  I'm Melanie Avalon and I am here today with a very, very special guest. This is going to be a special listener story episode. We've been doing a few of these episodes and they have been honestly so fun, so enlightening. It's been incredible to talk to you guys and hear about everybody's intermittent fasting journeys because there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of differences.  I'm just having so much fun doing this type of episode. It's also special because it's episode 400. Oh, hello. And then on top of that, so this listener, I'm here today with Andrea Miles and I was telling her beforehand, like I've seen your name like Facebook group and emails and things like that for a long time. You've been in this community for a while, right?  So when did you first start listening to this show?

Andrea Miles

I would say probably it was it was during COVID. So maybe spring of 2020, I'm guessing. Okay.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so a good solid four years or so. Yeah. I feel like I know you just from seeing you around all the places, and now we're connecting in real life. Oh, that's sweet, that's awesome. And I'm also really excited because when we bring listeners on this show, which by the way, listeners, if you'd like to come on, definitely submit, we would love to have you on the show as well.  So for that, just go to ifpodcast.com, slash submit, and then there's a form there where you can submit to be on the show as well. And in any case, when you do that, we ask a lot of questions. And Andrea, you provided so much information, so many topics to dive into. I am just, I'm really looking forward to this. So foundational question, how did you first get exposed to or into intermittent fasting?

Andrea Miles

Well, I had been complaining to my doctor that I was doing all the right things, I was eating right, I was working out, I was really probably over-restricting on calories, and the scale was going up, it was not going down. I was getting very frustrated. And he suggested that I read the obesity code. That was all, just read it. But it made so much sense to me once I did the science behind it.  And it kind of snowballed from there. Then I read Jen's book, and then your book, and started listening to the podcast, and I just got really into it from there, I suppose.

Melanie Avalon

So for listeners, I've had Jason Fung on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. The ironic thing is I have never interviewed him specifically about fasting. I actually interviewed him. He wrote a book called The Cancer Code that came out during COVID. So that interview was pretty much all about cancer.  So I've never actually, I mean, I think I probably asked him a few intermittent fasting questions, but barely any. But I have had his partner, Megan Ramos, like his fasting business partner in the clinic on the show a few times. And she's actually going to be on this show, I think like in a few episodes. So listeners can look forward to that as well. That book is amazing.  It dives so deep into, I mean, from what I remember, because it's been so long that I read it, but I remember it really, really went into like the insulin obesity hypothesis and awesome, awesome. Okay. So I also love that your doc, that's amazing. So this was a conventional doctor that recommended it to you or was it a functional medical practitioner?

Andrea Miles

a regular medical doctor. He's an internal, internal med doctor. And yeah, I also thought it was kind of insightful of him, I should say, because a lot of doctors don't think along those lines, I suppose. And I think he knew that I was probably smart enough to pick up on the hints he was laying down with that book.  The approach that Dr. Feng takes is maybe a little extreme, but I understood where he was coming from and what he was trying to say, and kind of adapted that to my own life and how I could approach it and get the benefits of intermittent fasting without maybe the super extreme fast that he was taking his patients on in the book.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I definitely want to dive into that specifically, your approach to things, because that's a lot of what you were saying in your answers that I really, really liked. It seems like you have a very healthy approach and mindset when it comes to fasting, just from what I read from your answers. I'm curious. Okay, I have a lot of questions. Question one, did you have a moment that you remember?  Okay, wait, first of all, when was this? This was before the pandemic?

Andrea Miles

I think it was probably, I'm going to say spring of 2020. It was right before I started listening to your podcast.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, do you remember a when you decided to just try it? And do you remember when you actually like first started like the first day? And if you don't, that's totally fine.

Andrea Miles

I don't remember the exact day. I remember I started with skipping breakfast and lunch and my goal was 16 hours and I did 16 hours every day for two weeks and I patted myself on the back. I white knuckled it and I had some headaches and it was tough but also at that time I hadn't read Jin's book and I was putting lemon in my water. Once I stopped doing that, fasting became a lot easier.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, wow. Okay, so the queen fast super important for you. Were you doing coffee and tea or?

Andrea Miles

I am all about coffee and tea now I always I've always enjoyed those black without any creamer or sugar or anything like that so that was never a problem I suppose to to still enjoy those without really feeling like I was giving anything up.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I think people, people when they're coming from the the creamer sugar aspect, people struggle with that one switching over. I actually, you probably heard me talk about this before, but I, I was doing like, tea and coffee and, and sweeteners. Honestly, for a long time, I don't actually remember when I switched over to the clean fast perspective.  Yeah, so always interesting to me how that works for people. And did you, because you said you were white knuckling it in the beginning, did you were you seeing beneficial effects pretty quickly? Or how long did it take to, you know, start experiencing changes physically?

Andrea Miles

I would say probably after about a month, maybe five to six weeks, I started to see changes in my body. Like I wasn't feeling as inflamed, if that makes any sense. I just, I was, before I started fasting, I felt puffy in all ways. Like everything about my body just, I was not comfortable in my own skin.  And once some of that internal inflammation, at least I assume that's what was going on, went down, everything got a lot easier and I felt a lot more comfortable just overall on a day-to-day basis.

Melanie Avalon

I love that the the inflammation thing is one of my favorite benefits and like how you're struggling a little bit to describe it. I feel like you you don't really understand until you've had it and then had it go away and then you're like oh okay that's what that was. Yes. Yeah it's one of my favorites. Did you go back to that doctor after you started?

Andrea Miles

Yes, absolutely. I see him every year. And I actually in 2022 asked him to test my fasting insulin level. And he actually had to go over to the lab to explain what the test was. They didn't mess it up because nobody ever orders it. He said patients are never fasted long enough to actually take it. So he got pretty excited about that. And so I asked for that every year.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. And you said you're fasting. It's been going down, right? Every time you test it.

Andrea Miles

It has started at nine, then it was six, and then this last year it was four.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. Amazing. And the diet you're eating on all of this. So what's your what's your diet history? Like growing up, what type of foods did you like? How has it evolved through the years?

Andrea Miles

Well, I am a Gen X-er. My parents were always very health conscious in our house. My mom never fried anything. I kind of grew up in the low-fat revolution, so everything in the pantry was kind of geared towards the low-fat sort of paradigm, I suppose. And that worked well when I was young, but I'm 47 now.  Once that metabolism starts slowing down a little bit and the muscle isn't as easy to keep on your body, you need to start opening up different macros, I suppose.

Melanie Avalon

I mean, that's something I was really excited to see you talking about was how you prioritize protein. Is that still a thing for you?

Andrea Miles

Absolutely, absolutely. If I have learned nothing in probably the past year, it has been the importance of protein and that macro balance. When I started intermittent fasting, I didn't watch calories anymore. I let my body tell me when I was full and when I was satisfied and when I was done eating, and I learned to listen to those hunger cues again.  And that has been really eye-opening, I suppose, in so many ways, when you don't let food control your life anymore.

Melanie Avalon

I cannot agree anymore.  I think honestly, that's another one of my I think we have this a lot of the same, you know, favorite benefits of fasting is that I just love food and I love that for so long, I was stressing about calories and what I was eating and all the things and now I eat all the things I love and I don't even think about calories and I do it in my eating window and it's like all good like it's so, so magical and and it sounds like we have similar so you eat, you're an evening eater.  I am. Yes. And you have a family, right?

Andrea Miles

Yes, yes. I've been married for 24 years. We have 18-year-old twin daughters and a 13-year-old son. Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon

twins oh my goodness is it is it true that twins like are not psychic but they like with each other

Andrea Miles

There is definitely some sort of connection there that is odd.

Melanie Avalon

I've always wondered what that would be like to have a twin. Are they identical? They're fraternal. They're fraternal. So have they dabbled in anything like this? No.

Andrea Miles

Although when I was growing up, my breakfast was the most important meal of the day, and I didn't always like eating breakfast. So when I was out on my own, off at college, that was the first thing to go in my life, was breakfast. I didn't like the way it made me feel in the mornings, I just didn't like eating breakfast. And so I decided as a parent, I wasn't going to put my kids through that.  But once they were old enough to decide, if they knew how long it was till lunch, once they were 10, 11, I let them decide if they wanted breakfast that morning. In that way, yes, I guess I've let them experiment a little bit. They're both very active. One is in cheer and dance in college, and the other does track in cross-country in college.  Yeah, as collegiate athletes, they eat quite a bit, actually, and pretty often.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, that's super cool. I love that. How about on the flip side when you were raising them? Did you make them finish their meals?

Andrea Miles

No, they had to try everything on their plate because, as you may or may not have heard, your taste buds change over time. So I would never let them get away with saying, I already tried that and I don't like it. That's what's for dinner tonight. You need to at least try one or two bites. And if you don't like it, that's fair. I'll let you find something else to eat. But I'm not a short order cook.  So you either need to prepare yourself or find some leftovers in the fridge.

Melanie Avalon

That's awesome. That sounds like a very healthy, solid approach to parenting with the food stuff. Thank you. And wait, how about your son? Were any of them picky eaters? Yeah.

Andrea Miles

Two of the three were pretty picky, and one, he's, my son, he's really just, now that he's gotten into running himself, he's starting to make healthier food choices and be less picky. So I think just natural maturing and changing of interests has led them to be less picky, too.

Melanie Avalon

Were you a runner or are you a runner? Are you athletic?

Andrea Miles

I really enjoy exercise, but no, I'm not a runner.

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it sounds like you like spawned all these like athletic, you know, children. And I had another question about that. Oh, I loved the story you told about candy and Easter candy.

Andrea Miles

Could you tell that? Sure, sure. So when when my girls were young, I'm going to say maybe kindergarten age, they they wanted to eat candy in their Easter basket. And it was early morning. I mean, we hadn't even been to church for the day yet. And I decided, you know what? This is a good, good opportunity, a good learning lesson. And I said, you can have anything you want to eat today.  If you want candy for breakfast, fine. You can have anything you want to eat all day long, whatever. But you can not complain to me about a stomachache. They got a stomachache. I didn't hear complaining, but they learned that lesson. And they never they never binged on the candy again because they knew how it would make them feel.

Melanie Avalon

That's really amazing. That was also a gamble on your part. Were you like, were you praying? Like, please let them get a stomachache.

Andrea Miles

I kind of was, but it also worked out too with my son because I thought, well, it worked out with the girls. I'll let, I'll do the same thing with him. Well, they had told him how miserable it made them feel. And he was really shy about it for the first couple of years. He didn't, he didn't binge.  And it wasn't until like the third year of him being allowed to do that that he finally got us a mild tummy ache.

Melanie Avalon

That's so funny, I love it. I'm gonna, I don't think I'll ever have kids, but I'm gonna keep that in my back pocket, if I ever do. Okay, so going back to your food choices now, so you said you focus on protein. I think something that, well, I know something a lot of listeners struggle with is how to get enough protein, honestly, that might be one of the most common questions we get.  So for you, well, first of all, so you're eating windows. So you're eating dinner, right? So you said you eat dinner and then kind of like another snack later, is that?

Andrea Miles

Yeah, I eat dinner with the family. I'll clean up from dinner, clean up the kitchen, do a few other things around the house, and then I'll sit down and relax for the night with a snack. I'll just keep eating, whether that be popcorn, my ninja creamy, nice cream, or some other somewhat healthy snack. I just keep eating until I decide I'm full and satisfied.  Usually that's about an hour and a half to two hour eating window each day. Okay.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, so that's shorter, actually, than I was picturing when I was envisioning your schedule. I got to get one of these ninja things. Vanessa talks about it all the time, all the time. I see it on the web. People love it. That's where you make the protein ice cream, right? Yes. It seems like a really good way to get in. Because basically the ice cream you make, can it be almost pure protein, almost-ish?

Andrea Miles

I've used like the protein shakes and just added a scoop or two of sugar-free pudding mix to kind of give it a little extra flavor or thicken it a little bit and so yeah that's pretty much protein I suppose but.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, nice. So you're in your actual dinner. So again, going back to this protein question, we always get is your dinner that you have with your family? I'm assuming are you the one typically cooking dinner or just your husband?

Andrea Miles

Oh, I am the one cooking dinner. So no, yeah, I try to provide like a well-rounded balanced dinner for everybody. Not everybody's going to choose the vegetable that night. And that's fine. Not everybody's going to choose the fruit that night. That's okay. Whatever. After dinner, usually my dinner is pretty heavy with protein, a little bit of carbs, some fat.  It'll be heavier and carbs if we have quite a bit of fruit that day, I suppose.

Melanie Avalon

So you don't personally you're not really existing in either low carb or low fat or high carb you're not any mention this earlier but you're you're just more eating intuitively and focusing on protein.

Andrea Miles

Correct, yes. I do try to balance, like the protein goal is always the main goal. And then interestingly, the other two sort of fall in line as well. Once I meet that protein goal, I think my natural tendencies just kind of balance that out, I suppose.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. That is, that's, it sounds like the perfect like intuitive approach to eating. What's your, okay, wait, two questions. One, what is your favorite meal in general? And also what would be your last meal where it's like anything goes?

Andrea Miles

Oh, well, I don't have a super sophisticated taste. I love pizza. I would probably pick pizza for my last meal with mint chip ice cream.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, you're a mint girl, mint ice cream girl. That's like very polarizing, the mint ice cream, I think.

Andrea Miles

It is, and oh, it's always been my favorite.

Melanie Avalon

Like when it's green?

Andrea Miles

Yes, and I'm very picky about ... This is going to sound so crazy, but I'm very picky about the chocolate in it. I specifically like chocolate chunks, not chocolate flakes.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, that's important. You got to know. You got to know exactly what you like. Is there a brand you like?

Andrea Miles

It's probably very local, but it's good, rich dairy. Good, rich. OK, I've never heard of that. Yeah, I think they're proud. I mean, I live in Nebraska, so I think they're probably, I'm sure they were bought out. But that was what I always had as a little girl.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, that'll do it. Like what you had when you were a kid, those emotional, nostalgic ties. Yeah. So what, and what is your favorite go-to meal in general? Like if you're going to a restaurant.

Andrea Miles

You know, that's what's so interesting, is since I've been intermittent fasting, I always kind of went towards the sandwiches and maybe even the pastas before, like the high carb, not good for you things.  Now when I go to restaurants, I'll look for crazy things that I would have never thought to order before, like meatloaf or a grilled pork chop or, you know, just, I don't know, I'm failing to come up with good examples right now, but.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I know you're talking about like that actually first happened to me when I probably first went low carb, but I it's like my taste buds had a new eye perspective. Like they wanted to explore new things. It's like I had like, it's like I've been given a new taste bud experience and I wanted to try new things that I hadn't before.

Andrea Miles

Instead of going for the tried and true favorites, I expanded my palette a little bit. So now it's, who knows? Maybe I'll get the special. Who knows? It just depends on what I'm feeling that day.

Melanie Avalon

When you do eat at restaurants, do you eat more because it's a one meal a day type situation or do you just eat more later when you get home?

Andrea Miles

It kind of depends on what our plans are later that evening because I don't want to under eat either. Because I understand the risk that can come from that, doing that on a repeated basis too. If we aren't doing anything later and I'm gonna have the opportunity to come home and eat some more, then I will probably eat a little bit less at the restaurant.  If I'm not going to, then I will make sure that I have quite a bit to eat at my dinner.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, that's smart. Yeah, I literally have just embraced getting usually two entrees now. That's smart, though. It's really fun. I love it, especially because I'm normally there's two entrees I want to try because I normally really want like a steak, but I'll also want to fish. So I remember I had like this moment where I was like, Oh, wait, I don't have to order just one entree. I can order two.  Absolutely. Okay, yeah, no, I love that. So this episode actually airs mid December. So we are, you know, right in the holidays and all those things. Do you adjust your eating window or anything like that for the holidays? And like, I know for you and I recording right now, it's before Thanksgiving. So like, do you adjust for that? What do you do with holidays?

Andrea Miles

I try to keep my minimum fast to 16 hours. So for example, with Thanksgiving, I just recognize that I'm going to be breaking it earlier than I normally would and try to get at least 16 hours in. Now there's no rules. If I don't, okay, maybe I fall a little short of that goal. It's not the end of the world. It's just a new day tomorrow and you pick up and move on. But yeah, I shorten it.  But also the thing that's kind of fun about shortening your window and eating one meal a day is I'm shifting that Thanksgiving meal in this example to earlier in the day at lunchtime when I would normally eat at dinner. So I'm also going to be closing my window earlier, which means the following day I often have a longer fast. Longer fast.

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. That's super cool

Andrea Miles

If I'm ever kind of quote unquote beating myself up for for falling a little short of a goal. I always remind myself that hey tomorrow's even probably going to be better than far better than today was so

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so it sounds like because you talked about it just now you talked about it in the answers you gave me, but the how you deal with your internal thoughts surrounding everything. So have you what are some examples of the evolution of your internal thoughts that you've had with, you know, dealing with cravings and food and all the things.

Andrea Miles

Yeah, it's been a learning journey too. I've always been a glass half full person. It's amazing how much your gut health matters to your emotional and mental well-being. Once my gut health started to get more in check, my mental clarity became so much better and those positive thoughts and feelings were a lot more frequent.  And that was really, it was indescribable because you don't, like we were saying earlier, you don't realize how far you've maybe slipped kind of like with the inflammation until you start feeling better again. But yeah, I was really hard on myself in the beginning.  But yeah, once I started to realize that I'm doing this and I'm actually pretty darn good at this, you gain a new perspective on your whole self.

Melanie Avalon

I love all of that so much. And yeah, with the gut health stuff, so you and I both, we struggled with SIBO. Did you get diagnosed with that officially?

Andrea Miles

I did through process of elimination because it was right at the height of COVID, and so they didn't want to do the breath tests for obvious reasons. And the gastroenterologist too, she said that she personally didn't like to rely too much on them anyway and preferred a process of elimination in terms of a diagnosis. So I did all the things.  I had eight vials of blood drawn and provided stool sample and all the things and everything was negative. She called. She said that's the only other thing it could be.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, wow. Did she prescribe like Rifaximin or anything like that for you?

Andrea Miles

Yeah, she did Zafaxin. I did two rounds of that. And then in an elemental diet as well. I paired that with an elemental diet. That was my own choice, not her recommendation. I am glad I did that. That was very difficult, but I think it was very important to healing my stomach.

Melanie Avalon

What version of the elemental diet did you do? Like did you do because I was in that rabbit hole and there's like there's like the official shakes you can get and like people would do their di diy ones and for diy some people would do like a high carb version where they made it with like just all honey basically and then some people would do like low carb like bone broth. What did you do?

Andrea Miles

I did a commercial brand, it was a powder mix, but it had nothing in it in terms of no sugar, no additives like that. And it tasted really, really bad. But it helped. I relapsed with the SIBO after about 40, 45 days. And that was when the realization came to me that I can't continue with antibiotics. I mean, that's not a good future course to handle that, just to continue to take antibiotics.  So I needed to find a different road.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. Yeah. So many people, I'm getting so many flashbacks when you said about the powder, because I think I ordered, I ordered some sort of elemental diet mix. And it was basically like the mix is just like the protein, essentially. And it tasted horrible. And then I mixed up myself and I don't, I think I gave up. I think I tried it for like a day and I was like, I'm not doing this.  Um, so I failed at that. But I also did there was a vaccine, Rifaximin, whatever, whatever it's called. It actually, I feel like it made me worse. Like it didn't help me. I know it helps so many people, but for me, it was not a good fit. Yeah. Okay. So, and then were you doing, because I know you mentioned you were using my app a little bit for food, food sense guide.  Did you ever do like a low FODMAT diet or anything like that?

Andrea Miles

I didn't, because some of the things that were on that list that should have been on the OK for the low FODMAP diet were some of my trigger foods. So I thought, well, this is not going to work. And so that's where your app was really helpful. I could just choose the specific foods that bothered me and make notes about them and and add them to my little list.  And it was really helpful to go back and say, oh, yeah, I remember I didn't do so well with grapes that last time I had those. Wow. OK, maybe I'll I'll try those again and see if that happens.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, yeah, so for listeners, FoodSense Guide, it's over 300 foods and it includes all of these different compounds that you might be reacting to in foods. So we were just talking about FODMAPs, which I should probably define there.  I always forget what it stands for, but it's basically fermentable, these different potentially fermentable substrates in foods and every letter in FODMAP stands for one of those compounds. Then there's other things like histamine and glutamate and lectins and sulfites. And so that's all in that app.  Something I would like to do actually, in like in all my free time, you're talking about how some of the low FODMAP foods were triggers for you. I think it would be cool if either in my app, probably in my app, if I could break it down into, cause like I said, each letter is a different compound.  Some like high FODMAP foods or low FODMAP foods are, it's not necessarily like, like so FODMAPs is not like one thing, it's like these different things. So it could be possible that maybe one part of the FODMAPs is what is bothersome for you and not the others. Like I think it'd be cool if it could be like broken down even further is the point. Oh yeah, for sure.  But it sounds like, so it sounds like now, so you made changes and do you struggle with gut issues now?

Andrea Miles

I don't. I can eat all the things. Leaky gut is a very real thing. I feel for anybody struggling with that, but you can come back from it. You can heal your gut and everything will be okay.

Melanie Avalon

Have you found fasting helped heal your gut as well?

Andrea Miles

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it even longer fasts, like if I'm really kind of going through a period of inflammation, I try to get a longer fast in there because I know that will happen.

Melanie Avalon

help. What constitutes a longer fast for you?

Andrea Miles

24 hours, I suppose, I have done longer, but yeah, about 24 hours I would say would be a long fast. Do you track the fast with apps? I do, I use the Zero app, I love it.

Melanie Avalon

love that we will have to put a link in the show notes we've had. I think it's the current she was not the founder, but she came in recently and now is one of the head people at zero. Dr. Naomi Parela I think is her name. We'll put a link in the show notes if people want to learn more about the zero app because that was that was an incredible episode actually. It was.  Yeah, I really had a fun time interviewing them. Okay, so what are some of your other favorite benefits? Like we've talked a lot about the physical stuff. What about life benefits that come from fasting?

Andrea Miles

Oh, there's so much less planning, I suppose, and time spent in the kitchen. You just don't have to dedicate the time to planning, and it's so flexible that you can not worry about making sure you are near food for lunch, or make sure there's breakfast nearby, or to choose to just live your life and not be tied down by the fact that it's mealtime for some.

Melanie Avalon

It's another thing where you have to experience it to really realize it but like you're saying the amount of time you get back like you don't realize when you're eating constantly throughout the day just how much time that is because it's just so normal like it's what everybody does but then when you get back all that time it's like wow like for me it's amazing it's a I can't yeah it's it's again it's something that you have to have done I think to realize just how beneficial it is true and then have you found because you said something in one of your answers about how you can if you're creative you can make intermittent fasting work for most situations so like do you encounter challenges with making it work in certain situations and how do you deal with that. 

Andrea Miles

only sometimes it's like I've said I I'm an evening eater so there would be times when maybe I'm invited to an event in the afternoon where you know maybe I just don't really care to eat with their serving and and that's okay you don't need to feel like you have to eat just because you are attending an event like that everybody there is excited that you're there and wants to see you not necessarily see you eating. 

Melanie Avalon

I agree so much, because I honestly do think that oftentimes the hardest thing for people is what you just touched on, which is it's not so... Well, people will say things. I'm not saying they won't, but there's a lot of internal anxiety people can have about worrying about what people are thinking.  And so it takes, at least for me, it definitely took building up that muscle to realize, oh, I can go and just be me and not eat if I don't want to, and that's okay. And people are not going to freak out on me unless they do. In the past, some of my family used to freak out on me once I got through that. But yeah, it definitely takes...  Honestly, it takes practice just as much as the fasting takes practice, because it can really break from social norms. And especially, it's getting a lot better now. I think because intermittent fasting is becoming so much more well known. But when I started, it was so long ago, and nobody was really doing it. And yeah.

Andrea Miles

So then it was you were the person that stood out in the room because you were the only one not eating. Yeah, I understand that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, but now like people know about like if I like meant say it say it people know like they're like, oh like they're familiar.

Andrea Miles

Yes, yes, it just takes a certain level of confidence to be okay with explaining why you're not eating too when asked.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I found one of my hacks is I will especially if it's like a long, like a holiday long get together thing where people are going to be there for hours and hours. If it's one of those, and there's a meal at the beginning, I will just kind of come at the end of the meal. And that kind of addresses that. So yeah, there's a lot of a lot of different things that you can do.  Do you anticipate, because you mentioned earlier, how you find like naturally with your with the quote macros and such that you kind of naturally adapt to what you need. Do you anticipate changing things up in the future, especially like with the evening window that you're doing? Do you anticipate much change? Or do you think you've kind of found your pattern?

Andrea Miles

I think I've kind of found my niche. I don't at least at least right now in my life this is working really well. I work full-time and you know my son's still in school on a you know day-to-day basis so the schedule works well I suppose.  Now maybe later in life I would shift that but right now it's it's going well and we were planning a vacation for earlier this spring and last fall I had lost all of the weight I was probably going to lose with intermittent fasting but I was not toned really and so I decided to focus on protein and since then I have seen muscle gains and I have started people have started to ask me if I've lost weight well I haven't lost weight in in a year now but people are starting to notice and I can only attribute that to the increased protein and and focus on my protein intake so I don't see that changing because obviously that part is going well. 

Melanie Avalon

I love that, especially because a lot of people worry or say you can't build muscle while fasting. And it's just not true because people, people do it. Like we see it all the time. So that is amazing to hear. Did you, so you added in protein, you focused, so did you at the same time you're adding a protein and focusing on strength training together?

Andrea Miles

I have always done strength training with cardio on the off days, I suppose. So I didn't really change anything with what I was doing in terms of exercise. Oh wow, you just added more protein.

Melanie Avalon

Shifted protein. Yeah, that's amazing. That's awesome to hear you mentioned your job. Do you do you work from home? Or what do you what do you do?

Andrea Miles

I do work from home. I'm an underwriter. So when COVID hit, they closed our office and sold the building. So I work from home permanently. It's not for everybody. Personally, I love it. It just works really well for me. I can control the lighting, for example, my surroundings. I can get little chores done by taking quick breaks in my day, which you should do anyway.  When they did change to working from home full time, I got really nervous about being inactive. The office, the physical office that we were located in was quite large. It had an exercise room. So you could go down there on your lunch break and just walk on the treadmill if you wanted, which was fabulous. And you know, I find long routes to the bathroom during my day and things like that.  So that made me really nervous coming home and lopping that square footage off. We are fortunate we have quite a few exercise machines and things in our basement that I can take advantage of, but I still was going to need to be in front of my computer eight hours a day. So I got an under desk elliptical, a cubie. And I pedal, and I pedal, and I pedal five to seven miles a day.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing I love that so so that one that you're talking about is it is it electric.

Andrea Miles

Yes, yes, it's it runs through Bluetooth on my phone, actually. So. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I can keep track of how far I've gone just by looking at my phone. But yeah, it's.

Melanie Avalon

It's cool. And you have a standing desk that goes with it.

Andrea Miles

I do. Um, I also decided that, okay, well, if I'm coming home to work, I am going to make my quote unquote office exactly the way I want it. So I got a desk that I can sit or stand in three monitors.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. Yeah, I was already working from home primarily before the pandemic and I had a serving job. So I lost that with COVID. And it was actually really amazing because I think I was holding on to it like a security blanket. So it forced me to just go full time with you know, podcasting and all of that stuff.  But that's something I was really worried about actually was because I kind of saw my serving job as my exercise because it's a really those jobs are really movement intense. So I had to really, I really had to make sure to, you know, make sure I'm not being sedentary all day. And I so for example, like zoom calls, I rarely do video, I pretty much always call in or do audio.  So then I can like walk around during them. That's like just like a little small hack that works really well for me like you don't have to be chained to your computer all day with a lot of things. I love that. I did get I got one of those treadmills. And it didn't I should probably look into it again. It didn't like really work with my setup. But it was it was really big. Is this one that you have?  Was it big? It's probably

Andrea Miles

two feet long by a foot and a half wide okay that's way better so yeah i do have to i used an old luggage strap to strap my chair to it because otherwise it tends to creep away from me oh that's funny oh my god

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness. I love that small hack for you there of the hacks. Oh, and speaking of cool machines. So can you tell what you experienced with your vibration?

Andrea Miles

Yes, so I have osteopenia, so I wanted a vibration plate to help my bone density. After about 18 months of using this vibration plate for 20 minutes a day, almost every day, I went in for my normal routine checkup, and she measured me, and she measured me at 5'2.25". Now, I have never in my entire adult life measured higher than 5'1.75", so I told her she must have mismeasured, and could she please do it again? She repeated, and same result. That is really weird. So, I came home, and our family has the trusty marks on the wall on the wall, and so I had myself re-measured, and sure enough, I have grown half an inch. That's crazy. Yeah, just my spine decompressing, I'm sure, but how cool. Now I can actually say I'm 5'2 in my life.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. So how often do you do the vibration?

Andrea Miles

I do it every morning for 20 minutes in the day before I log on my computer to work. And you sit on it, stand on it? I stand on it with my knees just slightly bent. And that's when I kind of get my social media time in on my phone.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I need to start. Okay, because I have one of those and I never use it. I used to. I used to use it all the time. I need to start doing that I read that and I was like, Whoa, I need to. I gotta get on that. That's amazing. That's, that's incredible.

Andrea Miles

I used the highest level for 20 minutes.

Melanie Avalon

Have you seen any effects on your bone density from it?

Andrea Miles

So, my DEXA scan, I just had one recently and I still have osteopenia, but my one prior to that was 12 years earlier.

Melanie Avalon

so oh wow wow it's like hard to make any

Andrea Miles

Yeah, it's not a real good comparison, honestly.

Melanie Avalon

No, not at all. Wow. Okay. That's so cool. You talked about how you got into someone like the biohacking type stuff. What other stuff do you like?

Andrea Miles

or a ring. I use Lumen as well. So I like that. I have an Apollo neuro. Really like that as well. I love my Apollo so much. Yes, I do too. I do too. It's so comforting.

Melanie Avalon

It's a game changer for me. I'm actually getting one for my brother for Christmas and I use it every single night of my life.  So for listeners, it uses sound vibration but it's just like gentle vibrations and you can wear it on your wrist or your ankle or you can clip it to your shirt and it helps automatically turn on your body's parasympathetic nervous system so your rest and digest and calming state. You're literally turning that on basically with the touch of a button.  So rather than having to get there through meditation or things like that, which are great, this also really helps and just turns off the stress in a way and can actually enhance meditation. They actually just did a study on that. I recently had Dr. Dave Rabin, the founder back on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast so people can check that out.

Andrea Miles

out. Yeah, you can use it to for things like a little burst of energy because there's different modes for that as well.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, and they just added like a hug thing that's super cute. So yeah, I love it. Would you ever go to any of the conferences?

Andrea Miles

Oh, I would love to, that'd be so much fun.

Melanie Avalon

There's so much fun to meet all these guests and see all these people and all the brands. We just, yeah, it's so, so fun. So fun. Speaking of, do you travel? I mean, you mentioned about traveling in the spring. Does your family travel much?

Andrea Miles

Yeah, we do. We like to travel. We try to go somewhere about once a year or so. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. We just recently went to Hilton Head this last spring to celebrate my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. They renewed their vows on the beach. It was sweet.

Melanie Avalon

Have you found fasting helps with travel? It does.

Andrea Miles

is because everybody else in our party was, are we gonna have time to grab food in between flights? Does anybody have snacks in their bag? And okay, where do I need to be and when? I mean, yeah, it was just, it was a lot less stressful, I suppose, not to have to worry about food.  And then, you know, we landed and everybody's starving and can't get their luggage fast enough and find food fast enough and yeah.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. It's so nice. It is. Does your husband...

Andrea Miles

been fast? He does not, no. Hasn't trickled over. No, it hasn't. He probably thinks it's kind of my superpower because I think it's kind of amazing to him. He doesn't quite grasp how how I'm not hungry and

Melanie Avalon

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't think it hasn't really rubbed off on any of my family. Nope. Just me. Yeah, agreed. What would you tell people who may be nervous about starting or on the fence about starting fasting? What would your go-to advice be for people with fasting?

Andrea Miles

Try it and don't get discouraged if you don't succeed or what you deem as success. Keep at it because like I said, it took four to six weeks before I thought, I really have the hang of this now. So stick with it, be patient with yourself. It's a long journey and it winds.  You're gonna sometimes feel like you're not making any ground so I would recommend definitely some sort of a progress, whether that be pictures, measurements, honesty pants, all of the above, do all of the things so that you can see, look back and see, wow, look what I've done. I am better than I was on that day because I've been doing this.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. And you had a moment with your trying on jeans.

Andrea Miles

I did, yeah. I took one of my daughter's jeans shopping with me and I've always carried my weight in my hips and my thighs and my rear end. So I was always looking for ways to cover those areas. And now I buy clothes that fit. And when I went jean shopping recently, my daughter said, I don't, I don't like those jeans on you mom. I said, well, why not? They fit.  And she said, they make you look like you don't have any butt. She was right. It's kind of disappeared. So those were no, and I had to find some different jeans, but never has that ever been a problem in my life.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. And what I love about that, though, is not only are you losing the weight, but we've talked about it all throughout this episode, your focus now on your protein and coupled with the training, you know, you're also building muscle with all of this. So seems to be the ideal changes in body composition that people are hoping for.

Andrea Miles

My body's never gonna be perfect. It is what it is. That's not my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is just to be comfortable with myself again, and I am. I'm happy with that.

Melanie Avalon

I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining us for episode 400. Oh, my goodness. Such a special moment. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on about your journey or share with listeners?

Andrea Miles

I came across this quote when I was preparing for this podcast and Maya Angelou said, nothing will work unless you do. And that really resonated with me. If you put in the work, you

Melanie Avalon

you will see the payoff. I love that so much. Well, thank you, Andrea. This has been such a lovely, wonderful time. Everything you said has been so inspiring. And I love how you were saying earlier how you're like a glass half full person, like that your mindset and approach to life really, like I can feel it. It's like very, very positive and like high vibration. And I just, I'm just smiling.  And I was during this whole interview. So thank you. Thank you so much for your time. And maybe the last question I'll ask you, it's the last question that I ask on my other show on the Biohacking podcast, but it's always a nice way to round things out, which is what is something that you're grateful for?

Andrea Miles

I am grateful for diversity in this world. I think it provides such a fabulous opportunity for us to learn from each other. We have all these different platforms now to make that so much easier. It's one of the things I'm grateful for, in addition to my health, because I understand how important that is as well.

Melanie Avalon

That's an incredible answer. Nobody has ever given me that answer before. I love that. I'm always so curious what people are going to say. That's so wonderful. Well, thank you, Andrea. I am so grateful for you. I'm grateful that you've been here all this time and that I got to talk to you now about your journey and keep me updated.  I'll see you around the Facebook group and all the things and just thank you and have the happiest of holidays.

Andrea Miles

Thank you so much, Melanie. This was such an honor. I really, really appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon

Well, yeah, well, I will talk to you later. All right. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team.  Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 399 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

SPECIAL GUEST:

Megan Ramos is a Canadian clinical educator and expert on therapeutic fasting and low-carbohydrate diets, having guided more than 14,000 people worldwide. She is the co-author of the New York Times Bestseller Life in the Fasting Lane and The Essential Guide to Intermittent Fasting for Women.

Website | IG (Fasting Method) |  IG (Megan Ramos)

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OTHER LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

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Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 399 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX.  And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment.  To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. I am so incredibly excited about the conversation I am about to have.  It is with a very, very popular guest. So I've had today's guest on the show before. And I often ask for questions in my Facebook group for guests. And whenever I even remotely mention this beautiful person, I'm here with Megan Ramos, I get inundated with optimism and excitement and enthusiasm because people love what you're doing, Megan.  And so many people say that, you know, they're the reason that they found fasting and, you know, change their lives and things like that. So I get so much gratitude. And then I also get so many questions for you. And I had you on the show before.  And that was before you had released or yeah, I'm pretty sure that was before you had released your newest book, which is The Essential Guide to Intermittent Fasting for Women, Balance Your Hormones to Lose Weight, Lower Stress and Optimize Health. That book honestly is absolutely incredible when it comes to just being a I mean, it's in the title, An Essential Guide to Intermittent Fasting.  And what I also loved, there's an endorsement on it by Cynthia Thurlow, who my audience will be very, very familiar with since she was a former co host as well. Megan has a lot of her background working with Dr. Jason Fung, who is a legend in the fasting world. And she wrote the New York Times bestseller book with him life in the fasting lane. So Megan, thank you so much in advance for being here.  And also I know it's been a while, but last time we had you on that was pre pregnancy and baby and this is post pregnancy and baby. So congrats on that. How old now is your who's it a boy or girl?

Megan Ramos

I have a son. His name is Marcus, and he's just about 13 months old. So it's pretty wild. I don't think I've slept since I was last on your podcast. It's all been kind of a blur. Pregnancy was a bit rough. And then this last year has been crazy.  I appreciate your very kind intro though, Melanie, I feel like for the last year, I've just been known as my son's cow and the lady who doesn't sleep at the end of the street. So it's good to hear that makes me feel a little bit more like myself, and like all these long hours are worthwhile and hopefully we're helping a lot of people out there.

Melanie Avalon

No, I literally have so much gratitude. And I talk about this on the show a lot. I personally don't anticipate having kids. I just don't really see it as part of my life. And so I am, I am so I don't know how you guys do it. And I am so grateful to moms like you for, you know, taking one for the team. They're like, I could not, I could not, not do it.  And I'm going to ask a listener question right off the bat because something relates to this. Teresa, she said she wanted to know, she said, I know pregnant women aren't supposed to fast. So I'm curious what Megan's eating patterns were when she was pregnant. What times and what types of food did she have? So yeah, I'm curious about that as well. Did you get create?  Well, first of all, did you get weird cravings during pregnancy?

Megan Ramos

I did not have any weird cravings at all during pregnancy. I didn't really change my diet. The weird thing about my pregnancy was that I ended up having two placentas. And I didn't know this. And it kind of explained why my pregnancy was so awful at the very end. But I had these two placentas, the one my son's main placenta, and then I had this accessory placenta.  And they caught it at the last minute, which is great, because we both got to live. And it was actually a pretty serious condition called type two of azaprivia. It got caught by a real fluke. So I mean, all the stars align there to keep us alive and healthy. But I was super sick.  And I had all these dreams and plans of eating and how I was going to structure everything and make everything as nutrient dense as humanly possible going into pregnancy. And I was barely alive for the eight months that I was pregnant before I was born. He ended up having to come early because of the placenta issue. And I was amazed that I like he was growing and that I didn't end up in the hospital.  But I'll say like during my pregnancy, whatever food I could tolerate, I just like ate and ate and ate. And that changed as my symptoms change. But I stuck very true to like a real whole food kind of principle, I guess, sort of paleo. But I did do things like drinking raw goat milk from a farmer that I knew was very comfortable with. And you know, eating a two sheep yogurt.  So I did have some, you know, type of dairy sources as well. But yeah, just kind of stuck to my regular I really prioritize protein. Fortunately, I could eat beef, but I couldn't like tolerate like a New York strip for some reason. But I could tolerate fillets like wrapped in bacon. So I think like for like two months, like that's all I ate for like dinner.  And my vegetables, I just try to cycle through and I did eat some carbs, you know, I usually would have some berries at lunchtime. And then I would have like some sweet potato or some root vegetable at dinner time as well. And you know, I did gain 26 pounds by the time he was born. And he was born at five pounds, eight ounces a month early.  So you know, it was enough, at least to keep him going and thriving. But all of my plans for like a real, you know, like ultra nutrient dense pregnancy kind of went out the window. And I just had to go with what my body let me eat. But I know I didn't have fast food, I didn't have junk food once, you know, I we ate at home, pretty much we did take a trip early on in our pregnancy to lanai.  And we were fortunate they had like things like grass said beef and avocados actually really helped with my early nausea. And they're high in B6, which I kind of knew but then really became aware of once I was pregnant. So I pretty much ate grass said beef and avocados the entire time we were in lanai. And I could eat eggs, eggs didn't seem to bother me.  So just yeah, just trying to get in when I could tolerate within my own dietary principles. But I didn't shift anything. Prior to pregnancy, I you know, I did eat some carbs, I ate berries, I did eat root vegetables and smaller portions.

Megan Ramos

They're not things I ate when I was struggling with insulin resistance. But they were things that I strategically added into my diet afterwards. And I continued to consume those throughout pregnancy to tolerance.

Melanie Avalon

Wow. Okay. So many questions. Well, I love how you were saying that you had these dreams of eating nutrient rich and then it sounds like what you ate was really nutrient rich to me. Sounds like you did pretty good.

Megan Ramos

I think I thought I was going to eat like liver like a few times a week.

Melanie Avalon

the organ meats and all the things. Okay, I hear you. Did you change your eating windows?

Megan Ramos

Yeah, I did. And I actually banked embryos, I went into mommyhood, actually a little bit late in life. So a lot of your listeners know, and for those of you who don't, I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 14. I was actually kind of amnoxiously skinny preteen. And I had PCOS and it was kind of weird, like I didn't have acne, I actually had regular periods.  But I started cycling, you know, just before my 10th birthday, like really kind of abnormal PCOS stuff. You know, I have been able to correct that later on in life, but it didn't undo some of the damage that happened earlier. So when a woman has PCOS, they burn through a lot of follicles early on in life. And we're only born with so many eggs.  Like we don't have an infinite supply of eggs that we can generate over time and genetics, you know, plays a big role in dictating how many eggs we have at the start. And then things like PCOS, you know, plays a role kind of in the life, like the longevity, like how often, you know, or how long we have those eggs for. If you have PCOS, she'll burn through a lot earlier on.  So when I was older, and we decided it was time to start a family, I wasn't that old. I mean, I just turned 40 and my sons one, I had low ovarian reserves because of my past. So I we decided to bank embryos, because we would like to have a second kid. So I did the whole IVF thing. I was very fortunate, though, because of my lifestyle, I had really high quality eggs.  So even though I didn't have like a ton, because of my history of PCOS, I had some really good raw materials to work with. And that gave us an amazing baby boy very easily from IVF. So we were very fortunate in that respect.

Melanie Avalon

Well, I didn't know that about PCOS and the eggs and IVF. That's amazing. And the high quality eggs with the fasting, how did you change it?

Megan Ramos

Yeah, my mommy brain here. I'm so sorry. Yeah, so pretty much like my maintenance plan, because you know, I've, I've improved a lot of health markers, like reversing type two diabetes, and my PCOS and fatty liver, and I lost a lot of weight and kept it off for a long time. And pretty much since I hit my goals, I've really like eaten two meals a day.  And then as my schedules just kind of dictated it, I've done fasting. So like, prior to pregnancy, I had a class every Wednesday evening. So I just ended up doing 24s, a 24 hour fast every Wednesday, I had a long flight, which I often did, you know, I would cycle in some even longer fasts.  And then I would strategically plan a few extended fasts a year just for longevity, health improved health span reasons. But you know, going into pregnancy, sorry, going into my IVF journey is where I got lost my tangent there. I started doing 14 hour window only, and having three smaller meals throughout the day.  And I'll say like with all my symptoms, it was the only way I was able to get in I think enough food at the end of the day to keep a healthy pregnancy without having to go into the hospital or something like TPO and just I wouldn't want that for my son's development. And I could avoid it.  So having the three smaller meals throughout the day did help quell a lot of my side effects and enable me to get in a good I guess a good low love like low diet of nutrient density throughout the day enough to have an optimal healthy baby at the end.

Melanie Avalon

So you were still, because I think people get really nervous with pregnancy and everything, and we get lots of questions about breastfeeding as well, but you were still eating in a slightly restricted window.

Megan Ramos

Yeah, you know, I still got in 14 hours a day. It was pretty easy. I never snacked unless like, I really felt kind of like I needed to. During pregnancy, my whole thing was like, if I if I felt hungry, like I wasn't going to say, Okay, you know, have some sparkling water and just try to suck it up. Pregnancy is a time for growth. And it's not a time for for fasting.  So I just made sure to listen to my cues. I think I was so fortunate. By the time I did get pregnant, I'm like incredibly in tuned to my body and its needs. I know when I'm thirsty versus hungry, and vice versa. So I never really withheld but I found like I was able to maintain, you know, three smaller meals a day, and sort of a 14 hour window pretty easily, you know, throughout my journey.

Melanie Avalon

Okay, awesome. Yeah, so I have more questions about the windows and fasting and everything, but while we were talking about PCOS, I did have a good question about that. It was from Leah, and she wanted to know if someone is a type 2 diabetic and has PCOS, did one lead to another?  Are they both just caused by high insulin or is there some other component that influences which way this insulin resistance manifests? Would you treat the two the same with diet and fasting or should one thing be taken into consideration with PCOS?

Megan Ramos

Yeah, lots of really good questions. PCOS is essentially like diabetes of the ovaries. So PCOS and type 2 diabetes are both caused by insulin resistance. Genetics sort of can play a role too as to what of these expressions of insulin resistance, like which of these diseases you're likely to develop to over time, although I think I was actually like the first person in my family to have PCOS.  There's a whole bunch of them, like I had fatty liver, PCOS, and then eventually type 2 diabetes. As the insulin resistance becomes more severe, the more expressions and diseases related to it, you're going to accumulate over time.  And unfortunately, due to all of the dietary crazy changes that happened in the late 70s, a lot of women in my age group and younger women are struggling with multiple metabolic diseases as they've gotten older. So it's really common to see PCOS and type 2 diabetes come hand in hand. I had actually a lot of women that come to us with PCOS that was established when they were younger.  When we do look at their diabetes markers, sure, they're not classically abnormal by like tradition Western medical standards, but by functional integrative standards, like they're not good. And the person is usually on the cusp of being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes as well.  You know, it's sort of a bit controversial, I think, and even in the fasting space, how we treat this, a lot of my colleagues outside of the fasting method and Jason, who work with women with PCOS, they always kind of like try to treat the PCOS and the sex hormones and get those balance first, and then, you know, sort of tackle the diabetes.  What Jason and I have always done at the fasting method is treat the insulin first, we end up sort of, you know, knocking down two birds with one stone. But really that the insulin resistance is what's causing the sex hormone issues that's leading to the PCOS. And it's just it's a perpetual cycle.  And, you know, sometimes I think just treating the hormones, especially in severe cases where someone also has something like type 2 diabetes, we know the insulin resistance is on really bad. So really trying to target the sex hormones is just kind of, it's frustrating, it's a long lengthy process. And when there's type 2 diabetes parallel, it doesn't always work.  So in if we have a woman, say a 27 year old woman came to me, she's a newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes, she's known since her teen years, she had PCOS, she's looking, you know, to maybe want to have the possibility of conceiving down the road, she just wants it to be an option. So she does want to tackle the PCOS.  And she's struggling with the symptoms of PCOS, like acne, facial hair, but we don't want those symptoms if you know, we can avoid it. So what do we do? And I would treat them like a diabetic first and foremost, in the sense like, you know, we're treating the insulin resistance. And that's kind of what we say.  But I mean, the if you you just rephrase the PCOS is that's diabetes of the ovaries, we're treating the insulin resistance, the diabetes of everything kind of first.

Megan Ramos

And then once we have regained insulin sensitivity in the body, then we really focus on trying to optimize the sex hormones, like, you know, where they're still in balances, where they're still, you know, low levels of progesterone, or the issues with androgens, like, how do we optimize those down the road? And we found it to be, you know, very, very effective.  You know, fortunately, we've helped a lot of women, you know, with PCOS, who wanted to be moms become moms, which has been really great, you know, they told me at 14 that I would probably never be a mom. And here I was, you know, like, I, I got pregnant, first embryo transfer, no issues right off the bat, you know, and, and had a lot of luck.  And there's just there's so many opportunities for these these women. So it's been grateful to be part of these journeys. But even if motherhood is not something of interest, like we still want to treat the PCOS because it is like type two diabetes, but of the ovaries.  So we want to fix that get rid of the potential side effects that someone might be experiencing as well, and just improve their overall health outcomes. And we treat everybody like a diabetic in terms of fasting protocols at the start.

Melanie Avalon

That's incredible. And so when you say doing that first and then potentially treating the sex hormone issues, is that with like bioidentical hormones or HRT?

Megan Ramos

We don't do that at the FASTA method, but if there's things that we can do, we would recommend it in certain cases if needed. Or if there's just things that we can do nutritionally to boost things like progesterone levels.  You know, when someone's a type two diabetic and it's causing these other issues, and there's like PCOS and insulin resistance is causing the imbalances, we will, for example, you know, in a cycling woman, fast them fairly aggressively throughout the duration of their cycle. But once we've tackled the insulin resistance, then we want to optimize the hormones in each part of the cycle.  So once we've sort of tackled the insulin resistance, something that we would do to help optimize the hormones then is sort of more fasting. And the beginning of the cycle, less fasting in the second half of the cycle, more structured carbohydrate intake in the second half of the cycle to support progesterone production, for example.  So there's hacks that we would do nutritionally to see if we can optimize things first. We're fortunate, like for certain age demographics, we've had a lot of great benefits doing that. Generally, as women get older, like taking bioidentical hormones does have a lot of longevity benefits.  I chose my own will and accord as a 38, 39 year old woman pregnant to take bioidentical progesterone throughout my pregnancy. And then to take it after I knew my breast milk was established with my son to just kind of optimize my hormones, because that just declines naturally with age. And I will gladly take estradiol as from the time comes.  So we are a big fan of bioidentical hormones for the right demographic who does need it. But for younger women, we can often optimize a lot of things nutritionally and perhaps postpone the need for those hormones a little bit down the road.

Melanie Avalon

Is there a reason the progesterone is after the breast milk is established?

Megan Ramos

Taking progesterone might interfere with prolactin levels. So they're kind of contradictory to one another. So elevated prolactin suppresses progesterone levels and elevated progesterone will suppress prolactin levels. So I just wanted to make sure. I unfortunately, due to my weird placenta situation, had to have a C-section. That was not the dream. And my son was born early.  So it was really important to, I worked really hard to establish my milk. Just wanted to make sure that was solid. And once that was solid and my son was growing like a weed, then I was happy to take the progesterone. And it was such a great thing to add in because of all the postpartum anxiety and all that stuff.  And the progesterone really, it's amazing how much hormonal support helps with things like that.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, okay. By the way, how rare is that double placenta situation?

Megan Ramos

Oh, it's super rare. And it's like 2% of the population. It is more common in women who have done IVF just because of the embryos are like implanted kind of artificially, right? Like it's not just something that spontaneously happens in the uterus. So I guess you're just a little bit more prone to some placenta issues. And of course, I didn't know that.  And then they don't tell you that till after the fact.

Melanie Avalon

man, crazy, crazy, crazy. And also at your clinic, how many patients have you guys treated or how many do you deal with ongoing? Like how many I'm just curious, like trying to get like an idea of like the numbers.

Megan Ramos

Yeah, so we're now entirely online. I was actually just asking for this data for email that I was working on. I think in the last 12 years, we have worked with either between our Toronto Clinic and law online. We've worked with close to 100,000 individuals worldwide.

Melanie Avalon

That's amazing. That explains a lot why you can have so much knowledge, you know, especially when writing your book and a question about your book, there's a lot of debate out there with fasting definitions. I don't know if you saw the study that came out a couple months ago where they tried to have an official like establishment of what the different fasting definitions mean.  I've found it really interesting. So what do you consider intermittent fasting in your book? I found it really interesting that I think what you were calling intermittent fasting may not be what a lot of people refer to it as basically what constitutes a fast, an intermittent fast.

Megan Ramos

We at the fasting method classify things like 12, 14, 16, 18 hours of fasting, especially when done daily. We consider that to be just good time restricted eating. Why? Well, following these strategies, you know, we don't often see things like PCOS or type 2 diabetes reverse like at all, maybe very mild issues of insulin resistance are resolved.  Maybe, you know, if you're early on in your journey and you it's been just a few years of you carrying that freshman 15 still, it can easily be lost with those journeys. But unfortunately, we have a very sick North American and sort of, you know, global population, severe type 2 diabetes, severe insulin resistance and metabolic health problems. And those just don't cut it for fasting strategies.  So we classify those as just good eating days, how you should eat in between fasts to maintain the progress that you've made with your fasting, and how you should just eat for optimal health and longevity and just sort of good daily shorter fasting practices that we do know have disease preventing benefits down the road.  So like something like 14 hours of fasting has some really great benefits of preventing metabolic related breast cancer and woman. These are great things that we should be doing all of the time to sort of maintain good health and free disease prevention.  But for actual disease reversal, and especially when we've got a lot of that body fat that's super stubborn, and there's a lot of insulin resistance, they're keeping it on, we don't find those to be effective strategies. So those are those time restricted eating protocols, you know, they're daily fasting protocols for for maintaining health and for disease prevention, once you are healthy.  Now, what we focus on is fasting protocols that really target the insulin resistance. And in an insulin resistant individual, we really don't see those insulin levels fall enough for healing and some sensitivity to begin to develop until we approach the 24 hour mark.  So people that we work with and how we define fasting is we call it therapeutic fasting, we're fasting to treat condition we're fasting to treat insulin resistance. So we do combinations of 24, 36, 42, 48 hours of fasting, and then occasionally some extended fast.  So sometimes, you know, it's funny, because like I see all of the same stuff as you and your listeners, and like an extended fast is 24 hours, I actually just had someone the other day tell me they did an extended fast or 24 hours. By definition, though, an extended fast, you know, for us is 72 hours or longer. And these are the therapeutic strategies we help to reverse disease.  Now when someone's disease is reversed, we don't keep up with therapeutic strategies. I mean, you do a therapy to treat a condition and hopefully you can alleviate that condition and go to maintenance. And then we switch to time restricted eating protocols to maintain after that.

Melanie Avalon

It's definitely a slightly different view than I think a lot of people have. We had a question about the 72-hour fasting. Sherry said, I heard her say on one podcast that 72-hour fasting is easier for menopausal women. Can you ask her about it and what that looks like? For example, is that three fasting days and then four days with two meals?  I will say for listeners, get the book because it will go through, it goes through all the protocols and what this actually looks like. Just to briefly answer, when people are doing those extended fasts, are they fasting completely for 72 hours and then eating regularly the other days or what does it look like?

Megan Ramos

Yeah, for individuals who want to do 72 hour fast. So for like cycling woman, we would do it in the first half of the cycle in that follicular phase before ovulation. And then in menopausal, post-menopausal woman, there's a lot more flexibility. You can do it any time. That feels good. We would have people do three days consecutively, like say from Sunday dinner to Wednesday dinner.  And then that ends up with four consecutive days of eating, usually two to three meals a day, often though people will break it up with a 24 hour fast somewhere in the middle. So we commonly see people fasting, say from Sunday dinner to Wednesday dinner, and then maybe doing a 24 hour fast on Friday until from Thursday dinner to Friday dinner, just to kind of break up those four days of eating.  I know this sounds really intensive, and it has been a common comment since my book came out, is that I'm the crazy fasting lady. And these are intensive strategies. And they're really only meant for short term treating a condition and then moving on from it. And I'm all about the minimal effective dosage. For those of you who are listening, you might be a little bit scared of these things.  We always start someone off slowly and work our way up. And we always see what is the minimal effective dosage of fasting required for them. And I hate to say it, but unfortunately, in cases of severe metabolic disease, severe insulin resistance, we often do need to do some of these therapeutic fasts. Now, I would say there's never really a need to do a 72 hour fast.  You can do one if you want to do one. Sometimes people really like packing all their three days of fasting back to back. You know, we used to have women do a Monday, Wednesday, Friday fast in our clinic.  And they would come in and say, can we please just do them all in one day, because or sorry, an all in one stretch, because once we get into a fastest state, it's easier to stay there than to have to bounce back and forth throughout the week. Whatever is most sustainable, sure. But we do these therapeutic strategies, hopefully, you know, not longer for than six months.  If someone's able to be consistent with them, you know, before we start to turn down the fasting dial. And if someone's making great progress, you know, doing 24s, then like, hey, if it's not broken, don't fix it. And we definitely work to keep them there.  But there are people who do need to do longer fast, there is definitely a time and a place, you know, for doing something like 248 hour fast, and maybe occasionally, you know, doing a 72 if that's easier for you. And there's a time and a place for that. And I feel like there's not a ton of resources out there.  So I think sometimes I get labeled the crazy fasting lady, with these long protocols, but there is a time and a place. And I wanted to make sure we could provide a voice for all women, we a woman who have great success with 24s, but for the woman that just find it easier to do some little longer fast to get to their goals as well.

Melanie Avalon

A question about the mechanisms of action there with the longer fasting. How much of it is just due to the low insulin versus other things that are happening with fasting?  And my follow-up question would be, can you sort of hack it by doing like a 36-hour fast and then a super low insulin meal, you know, and like, so sort of like maintaining that low insulin but not fasting as long, or is it really about the fasting hours?

Megan Ramos

A bit of both. Someone's looking for weight loss. Jason actually just interviewed me. It was the funniest thing. We spent 20 years just talking, and it was just weird to be talking on camera with him, interviewing me. I know that interview's not going to air well into next year, but he shared on the interview that he recently... It was just going to work out in his schedule to do a three-day fast.  He wanted to do one before seven, the holiday hoopla. He took a very tiny, next-to-no insulin-producing meal every single day during that fast. You can absolutely do that. For women, if I was someone who wants to do a five-day fast and I need something like a slice of avocado in the middle of that fast to be successful, then do it.  If they're really looking to knock down the insulin and suppress it for a long period of time and to try to burn as much fat, do it. Absolutely. Go for it. There are some other health benefits.  In certain cases, like if someone was a cancer patient, we would probably want to do three days to focus on water and electrolytes because we would really want to optimize the cellular recycling process called autophagy. Autophagy is this physiological cellular recycling process that can be activated by nutrient suppression in the body. That is beneficial.  A lot of cancer patients seek it out as just one of the tools in their toolbox of therapies that they're using in conjunction with regular medicine. We tend to really try to optimize that autophagy process. We would try to minimize nutrients being added to that particular time and just stick close to water and salts and some Epsom salt baths.  Sometimes people feel too like when they are losing weight, they're starting to get a little bit excess skin accumulation and they want to try to minimize that. That's another instance where we'd see someone really want to optimize autophagy happening in the body so we can get that breakdown of the connective tissue happening there.  If that was the goal, then we would say, okay, autophagy really peaks at the 72-hour marker into a fast. We would want to do a three-day fast then if that was someone's goal and we would try to minimize nutrient intake during that particular time. There's really no black or white answer. There's really no wrong or right way. It just depends on what that particular goal is of that specific fast.  Sometimes there's a time and a place. I think Jason's like he had some broccoli and green vegetables. Nothing that sounded appealing for me even on an eating day, but I don't like broccoli, but I'm pretty sure that's what he ate. That's fine. People have avocado slices here or dill pickle there.  That's also fine if they're just trying to lose weight, but otherwise it depends on what their goals are, how we would guide them on that.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, so actually the second part of Sherry's question, she was the one asking about the 72-hour fast. She said, can a salad with oil and vinegar be a fasting aid? And she also said, I'm so glad you were interviewing her.

Megan Ramos

So Jason, yeah, but it can be but it is it is a fasting aid. So, you know, I'm not going to say that you're in the fastest state for that entire duration, you are going to be removed from the fastest state for a period of time.  But if it's something small, if it's something that you know, if you're having something like leafy greens, and it's there's not going to be that insulin response is just so minimal. And you add a little bit of olive oil, for example, but not a lot, just like a little bit.  It's not a ton of fat, you know, it's really not any different than adding a little bit of something like heavy whipping cream to your coffee during a fast. So it is fairly equivalent in that sense of someone needed something.

Melanie Avalon

And so, to clarify, we're talking about people using this to do those longer fasts, not like their daily fasting window, just for super clarity there. Speaking of daily fasting, you mentioned this in the book, but how do you feel about people doing one meal a day every day?

Megan Ramos

No, I hate it with a fiery, fierce passion. And I'm fortunate that there's a lot of wonderful female fasting advocates out there who also feel the same. It is just such a detriment we've seen to women's metabolism over time. We run into nutrient issues over time, and then women are feeling like garbage, they're starting to gain weight. So with one meal a day, these are kind of the big issues.  So you're doing the same thing day in and day out. There's really not that much intermittent with it, and the body does begin to adapt versus doing three 24-hour fasts a week. So if you're doing just one meal on Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays, it's intermittent. One day is one meal, the next day is two meals. You know, then one meal, two meals, one meal, two meals.  So there's change, there's variety there. Your metabolism is getting fed different amounts of metabolic energy every other day, and it keeps it guessing, and it keeps your metabolism running well. But when you do the same thing every single day, your body adapts, and it slows down your metabolic rate. So I always talk about, you know, you have a house, we all have household incomes, right?  So if your household income is reduced by 40 percent for whatever reason, at first you would overspend, likely. If it was abruptly reduced by 40 percent, I mean, you would still maybe have expensive car bills and other luxuries, like gym memberships and things that you might not be able to afford afterwards. And so you might go into a bit of debt.  And then over time, you learn how to avoid accumulating debt month in and month out. And you cut back, you know, you might cut back on groceries. You might sell one of your two cars and get a public transport pass. You might get a Netflix subscription instead of going to the movies. You might just stream stuff versus paying for cable, like that type of thing.  Like you figure out how to cut corners and avoid going into debt every month because your monthly income has been reduced and you learn to adapt over time. And so our bodies are we feed our bodies and we give it, you know, metabolic dollars every day in those meals.  And when you reduce it every day, just to sort of one meal and say you you're still eating a very colorically dense meal at that one meal, but you're still reducing it, say, by about 40 percent day in and day out. And your body over time will overspend metabolic dollars and you will see some weight loss happening. But then it says, OK, you know, this is becoming consistent now.  And I know how to plan and I'm going to cut costs and reproductive function. And you're going to cut costs from cognitive function, cardiovascular function. And I'm going to adapt to this new budget and then your body adapts to that new budget by slowing down your metabolic rate to match your new metabolic intake.

Megan Ramos

And that's what we see happening when people do one meal a day. Also, it's just not enough protein. It's pretty much the bottom line.  And, you know, too, is that a woman, especially as we get older, our protein demands increase and it's so important, you know, to have good protein intake because it plays a huge role in maintaining really good hormonal health, not just, you know, when I talk a lot about insulin hormone, but sex hormones and we need the protein.  The protein is really an important building block along with dietary fat as well for good hormonal health as we get older. So our demand for it actually increases, decreases as we age.

Melanie Avalon

I'm a huge fan of protein. It's ironic. I'm airing the week that we're recording, not that this is coming out. An episode with Dr. Michael Greger, who's very, very big in the vegan sphere. And he was talking about how the one thing correlated to longevity consistently is a low protein diet. And I think it's really confusing to people when they get completely different perspectives on that.  It's interesting. I feel like I'm a unique unicorn in a one experiment with this because I have been doing one meal a day for, man, over a decade. I eat super high protein though, like pounds and pounds of meat and fish and seafood at night. And then I tend to alternate between higher carb days versus low carb days.  I don't know if maybe that is enough to keep my body guessing or keep my metabolism going. I mean, it's worked for me so far, but I also realized that I'm very unique in that. Like the amount of protein I eat in my window is like a shocking amount. So I don't know if you've worked with any unicorns like that.

Megan Ramos

No, there are definitely unicorns out there. I'd say it's not like the bulk of individuals, though. But I love your strategy of changing up your macros. Often, you know, there are times where people cannot fast for whatever reasons.  You know, like we won't necessarily fast somebody that's going under evaluation for an unknown medical condition, because then they always just kind of like blame the fasting, even if it would be helpful. If there's these instances that pop up or someone just, you know, they're going through a stressful time and, you know, they haven't combated stress eating yet.  But, you know, they can make the commitment to eat healthier. And we'll change up their macros. So weeks of higher protein, then weeks of higher carb, weeks of higher fat, and more moderate protein and carbohydrates, which is mixing up those macros. And it's been incredibly beneficial in their health journeys.  And it has made an improvement in their insulin resistance levels as well, in sort of the absence of doing longer fast. I don't necessarily know if it would take like an insulin dependent diabetic off of insulin. I don't believe so. But, you know, there's always going to be a unicorn in every case. But it is a it is a great strategy.  We are big believers in our program of just kind of rolling with the seasons. And some seasons will be higher carbs, some will be higher protein, some, you know, will be higher fat, and just kind of really making sure that you're prioritizing what you're eating locally, because it's going to be more nutrient dense, and just kind of embracing those changes in macros as the seasons change as well.  So there's a lot of, you know, Davis and Claire, I know he can be controversial too, like Michael Greger and these other guys, but he's got some interesting data on the benefits of changing sort of macro ratios for a longevity. And when we've put that into clinical practice, we've seen some really interesting outcomes and improving health span as well.

Melanie Avalon

I've had them on the show twice so I'll put links to that for listeners. How do you feel about and have you seen a change in your patient population either by numbers or by just their condition they're coming in with due to JLP ones?

Megan Ramos

We usually, it's very common for someone on our team to tell me that they had a consultation with someone and they said, I must be the only person that this didn't work for. And if I had like a quarter for every time I heard that, all of us pastors would be like living up on a Hawaiian Island. So there's that.  So one thing, you know, it goes to show that we've got to really sort of fix our relationship, our food choices, the frequency that we eat, our behavioral aspects around food. There isn't a magic bullet, especially that one that will work for everybody. So some people can continue to snack all day long on process, they refine foods and they might get some weight loss from these GLP ones.  But we do see a substantial number of individuals that say, Hey, you know, this doesn't work for me. I must be the only one because that's kind of what the media has a believing right now. It's just like, no, like welcome to like 10,000 people who are just just like you.  The other thing we see is nice people that have taken them have had some positive experiences with fat loss, but then have developed some side of effects, have had to stop taking it and then have regained the weight because they didn't change how they ate the frequency that they ate or their behaviors around food. So it's definitely not a miracle bullet.  There's a time and a place for them though, you know, when they did come out, I know Jason would put people on them short term, that would be the goal just to help get kind of appetite under control, but we would never want them to be on them long term where they might experience some problems down the road. We again, don't think it's a magic bullet.  I will never forget it was the start of COVID lockdown in Toronto at the time Toronto was really kind of crazy with it. My dad is a very social outgoing lawyer and he was then just home alone and isolated and he was eating his feelings. Sorry, dad, I'm sharing this with everyone and he had made such great progress with his diabetes through fasting. He had lost tons of weight.  He was off all his medications and A1C was like moving in the great direction, but this COVID just kind of sent him like so many other people into like a loop of poor habits and eating and his numbers all slid and Jason called me and he's like, I'm seeing your dad this afternoon and he's like in a telehealth appointment and he's like, what do you want me to do?  These are his numbers and he's like, I imagine, you know, you're aware of what's going on with his eating as well. And I said, just put him on a was epic for three months, like just give him three months to get it together, to get him to acclimate to what's going on, give him a little bit more control over his appetite at this particular time.  And Jason said he agreed, but he wanted to make sure that I was on the same page and that's exactly what it did. You know, it helps suppress things a bit, you know, for him to kind of, you know, get used to what was going on, make a new health plan to get back into action.

Megan Ramos

And after that three months, he didn't need it anymore. And he was rolling along and doing just fine and was able to maintain, you know, good habits and eating and fasting afterwards and get back his numbers. So, you know, we don't say never, you know, in our program, there is a time and a place.  I know clinically when we're working with someone in the clinic, you know, we try to make it not as long term as possible. It's not a magic bullet. That's for sure what we've seen as well.

Melanie Avalon

I really love and appreciate that perspective. And yeah, I think they're clearly there can be very powerful and potentially therapeutic if used correctly. I feel like they're just a severe lack of education and correct implementation. And yeah, so that that's fascinating. Another question. So with the holidays and everything, do you have tips or tricks for people?  Should they consciously try to be more restrictive? Should they use that as a time where it's seasonal and that's a time to boost their metabolism? And we've mentioned avocados a lot in this interview. And I keep getting flashbacks to something that you share in your book, which is your 90 minute hack where you can determine if you're actually hungry and then you think about an avocado or something.  Yeah. So what are some tips and tricks for holidays and approaching them? And what is this 90 minute hack thing that you have?

Megan Ramos

Yeah, so you know, when it comes to the holiday season, there's there's all different kinds of things like, you know, trying to be the one that hosts it so you can play on the menu or offer to bring like charcuterie or different side dishes so you do know that there's something that you can have. I know here in the I live in the Bay Area now and we always go to our friends on Thanksgiving.  And I just know now to offer to bring my own side dishes and I make amazing brussel sprouts with pancetta and they love it. So everybody's excited. And then I'm mostly excited because I know there's a side dish there that I can really lean into. And I'm not stuck with bad options. So and most people who are hosting don't mind if you offer to help because it is a lot.  So I mean, there's things like that. In general, I do recommend eating and prioritizing, you know, some good fatty protein or fatty fiber source depending on where you lean more plant based and more animal based fatty protein or fatty plant or fiber source before you go. So you're nice and satiated before you show up to the party.  We do have a 90 minute hack to help you reach satiation at the start of your journey. But we have a 90 minute holiday hack is that when you show up, I know I'm unfortunately won't be home for Christmas this year. But when we are, you know, we show up at my mom's super early. So you can do like the presents, the old school presents, they get to be kids again, even like the age of 40 and 37.  And then we're just there for the whole day. And there's like food being put out after food being put out. But like the real main meals, not, you know, coming to like five o'clock, you know, you get there early, and there's all these appetizers and hors d'oeuvres. And I encourage people, you know, treat them like a mini meal.  So you're showing up, you know, dinner is still going to be a few hours away. Eat for 90 minutes, but cut it off. So like you're not grazing, you know, for three hours, you get to participate, you can focus on the foods that align with your sister or with your principles and food values. And then everybody thinks you're participating, and then you cut it off. And then you wait until mealtime.  And during that time, you know, enjoy different herbal teas, like mint tea that might suppress your appetite carbonated waters, flavored carbonated waters, just to help what we often see so much as people say, no, I'm going to fast to dinner, I'm going to show up at my sister's house at noon, and dinner is not going to be to six. And I'm going to avoid all of the pastries.  And I'm going to do a 24 hour fast. Don't do that. Please don't do that. Like wake up that day, have breakfast, prioritize the foods that make you feel satiated for that meal.

Megan Ramos

You know, so for like my family, we might have like bacon, eggs and avocado, you know, for for that meal.  And then we show up and we do enjoy some appetizers and dessert orders, like we don't shoot ourselves in the foot, and then spend, you know, six hours debating with people that you know, why we're fasting, and why we need to fast and why they should be fasting, like no one wants to get into that over the holidays. And so we show up, you know, we give by giving ourselves permission.  So this whole concept of food freedom that Melissa urban sort of coined, to a certain extent, you know, you're giving yourself permission to have something that way, you don't go overboard with it, right? When we show up with the attitude, we're not going to eat anything.  And we're going to fast into dinner, almost every single time, you know, the patient or client would come back and say, Well, I ended up eating everything. But when you show up and say, No, I'm going to eat the foods that align with my values, and I'm going to eat them for 90 minutes, and then cut off the timer. At that point, people then do stick to the foods that resonate with their values.  And they do cut off the timer, and then they avoid all of this family conflict. They are feeling satiated then because they stuck with the foods with their values. So that's a sort of the 90 minute recommendation. And a lot of our communities found that to be helpful.  And then if you are going to have, you know, something a little bit special at your at your meals, I do know, like whenever we're in Florida for Thanksgiving, my husband loves his godmother's like sweet potato casserole, and he will have it.  But he will eat everything else first, all of the other protein, fiber and fat sources that he's going to have, he will eat all of those first, and already feel pretty satiated before having any of that sweet potato. And then he's able to control his portion size. What we found was on, you know, all the days like that.  And this happened to me, I remember it was like my first Christmas, and I was going to eat my mom's roasted potatoes. And I was like a little four year old, I put all the food on my plate, and they went for the roasted potatoes first. But I ate roasted potatoes on a mostly empty stomach, my insulin spiked, my glucose was spiked, my appetite was spiked.  And then I was like a bottomless pit and like people stared at me. And then I knew for the next holiday, wait, no, the great fatty protein and fiber. And I went to have some of her special roasted potatoes, I could only eat a small portion of them because I was full. My appetite was suppressed, meaning all the other good foods.  So save any indulgent items that you have for last, fill up on the good fatty fiber protein sources first. And if you can use something like vinegar, so if you can appropriately add it to a particular carb dish, like if you are having potatoes, for example, maybe not sweet potato, casserole, but something else add some vinegar can make a big difference as well.

Melanie Avalon

Wow, that's so cool that you intuitively figured that out as a kid. You know, that's amazing with the potatoes.

Megan Ramos

I was like 27 at the time, but I felt like a kid the first time. I'm like, oh, I'm going to eat all of this. This is my Christmas present, potatoes. And it just went horribly wrong very quickly. I didn't have any self-restraint. And the next time, I'm like, no, I'm going to treat them like dessert on my plate, and I'm going to eat them last. And I had a lot more control that way.

Melanie Avalon

I love that. A final question about your book. So you were mentioning earlier how some people interpreted the book a certain way with what you're prescribing when it comes to fasting. So I'm curious, since releasing the book, also since having your pregnancy and everything, is there anything that you would go back and change or adjust with what you wrote, or do you want to write another book?  Have your thoughts evolved.

Megan Ramos

I would love to write a book on perimenopause and strategies. I think the essential guide to intermittent fasting for women, there was some information there for perimenopausal women, but I think it's such a unique time in a woman's life where there's so many hormonal changes going on. And there's a whole different game set of strategies.  And we gave some of the basic ones, the common ones in the book for effectiveness, but perimenopausal women trying to lose weight and treat or prevent insulin resistance from developing, they deserve their own book. There's a lot there. Of course, I would also love to write one for women who are struggling with PCOS geared towards fertility and positive fertility outcomes as well.  So we tried to make the essential guide to intermittent fasting for women with key pieces of information for women across the whole adult hormonal landscape and spectrum there. So there's definitely something for everyone, but I feel like those were two demographics where there could be whole books just dedicated to those particular things.  And then of course, the post-menopausal women, I think, have so much freedom and liberty with fasting and even some nutritional choices to a certain extent. And I wish if there was a second version, I could have highlighted that a little bit more.  So I know when we do our book club at the fasting method and we go through the book, we really try to highlight that so that the post-menopausal women really feel heard and seen. So those are some reflections now that it's been over a year. Those are some of my hopeful goals for the future, once I've slept for a few consecutive nights at some point, things that I'd like to work on.

Melanie Avalon

And to clarify with the perimenopausal woman, is that the category of woman that needs to be more, I guess, concerned about overfasting? It's interesting because a Megan, another Megan, she said that she really appreciates you. She said she heard you. She said hearing her on a podcast changed the way I think about my health and has helped me enormously.  And then she wanted to know, for a woman approaching perimenopause, how can they make sure they're not fasting excessively? So my question there is just, is perimenopause where that is more of an issue?

Megan Ramos

It can be, absolutely. Sometimes less fasting is definitely more in terms of results. And when we work with a perimenopausal woman, we need to see the labs and we really customize it. We really want to make sure we're being ultra sensitive to thyroid. When you're younger or even a bit older, you can beat up your thyroid a little bit, but we don't want that to happen during that time.  We really want to make sure we're loving and nurturing our thyroid. I know at adrenal glands, there's so many that's so important for just overall sex hormone balance. Taking a look at the different sex hormone balance, taking a look at their cortisol, and really planning their particular fasting and eating strategies around that.  Even from when we would work, have someone do an intensive workout, changes if they're having cortisol issues, especially going through perimenopause. There's a lot of stuff that we, I think it's the most time in a person's life where fasting really needs to be personalized based on a whole handful of hormones. Often less fasting is more and being really creative about how you structure it.  I think maybe millions of people have heard both Jason and I say, breakfast. But a lot of the times, we make breakfast one of the staple meals for the perimenopausal women. Especially when cortisol is high, we want to optimize the conversion of Friti 4 to Friti 3 in the morning rather than reverse C3. We see all these reverse C3 issues. We want to optimize that.  We don't want to make it worse throughout the day or in general. We often will implement breakfast, whether we're doing some shorter fast or are still doing some longer therapeutic fast. It's very personalized and we do tend to turn the fasting pile down a bit during this particular stage in life.

Melanie Avalon

I, and I'm sure others will eagerly await hopefully that book when you get some more sleep in you. Thank you so much, Megan. I really cannot express enough my gratitude I have for everything that you're doing. And literally, you are so wildly popular with my audience. It's insane.  And even having co-hosted the Intermittent Fasting Podcast with both Cynthia Thurlow and Vanessa Spina, they both say the same thing that just, you know, whenever they have you on their shows, it's just everybody is obsessed. So, um, thank you so much for what you're doing, friends, definitely get the essential guide to intermittent fasting for women.  I will hopefully can have you back in the future when you have a new book and some sleep in you and all the things.

Megan Ramos

Yes. Thank you, Melanie. And thanks to all of your listeners for everyone's support. And I will keep putting information out there, sleepless or not so sleepless. We will keep getting stuff out there, helping just real practical strategies, you know, because fasting is super doable for everybody, but it is a little bit nuanced, especially for us ladies.  So just keep getting the information out there so women know that it is safe for them, but I feel confident that the strategies that they're doing are safe for them. So thanks everyone for listening to my rambles and happy fasting and we'll see you soon.

Melanie Avalon

Yes, no, thank you. And I almost forgot last question. It's so easy. What is something you're grateful for?

Megan Ramos

Right now, I'm so grateful for everything I've learned about nutrition, because my my son was born early, and he was 1.6 percentile for weight. And it has been a journey, but he is absolutely thriving. And if I hadn't been through all of this, like he's going to have such a completely different life than I have. So grateful. Sorry. Anyways, he's a cool guy.  So he's not going to be part of the puffs generation. That is for sure. And I'm happy for for it. So we can make we can start making changes for the kids to come.

Melanie Avalon

Thank you so much. That is so powerful. I am overwhelmingly grateful. Congratulations to you and your beautiful boy, and have a wonderful year. We'll talk again soon. Thanks, Melanie. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast.  Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.  See you next week.

Welcome to Episode 398 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine, and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

SHOW NOTES

SPONSORS & DISCOUNTS:

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STUFF WE LIKE: 

Visit ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike for all the stuff we like!

STUDIES:

Fasting's effects on stem cells linked to increased cancer risk (link)

Short-term post-fast refeeding enhances intestinal stemness via polyamines (link)

OTHER LINKS:

Vanessa's Tone Device: The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

Melanie's podcast: The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

Vanessa's podcast: The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts!

Original theme composed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon

Welcome to Episode 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat, with no calorie counting, then this show is for you.

Melanie Avalon

I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of What, When, Wine, and creator of the supplement line, AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of Keto Essentials, and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy Panels.

Melanie Avalon

For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions at ifpodcast.com.

Melanie Avalon

We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome.

Melanie Avalon

This is episode number 398 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing well. How are you? I am good. I have had an epiphany about a product I want to make.

Melanie Avalon

Can I like pitch you it? Okay. So you know how we talk about sleeping and how I love sleeping cool with like cooling mattresses and air temperature down and all the things? Yes. So what if I make like a stuffed animal that you sleep with that is filled with like a gel or a water and you keep it in the freezer.

Melanie Avalon

And so then at night, you pull it out of the freezer and you snuggle with it and it keeps you cold. So cute. I've been snuggling with like those like cold packs and realizing how effective they are. And I was like, Oh, this should be like a stuffed animal.

Vanessa Spina

That would be really cute. Have you checked if they have that anywhere? Like, it's got to be a thing. But probably for heat ones, maybe they have them for heat ones, but not for cold ones.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. I'm getting flashbacks when we were little. We had the boo boo bunny. Did you have a boo boo bunny?

Vanessa Spina

No, but you literally are Elsa, like you are it's crazy. Like who cuddles with an ice block?

Melanie Avalon

Listeners friends, let me know if this is something you want and I will I will make one. This is hilarious. What's new in your life?

Vanessa Spina

Things are going well, you know, overall, just like juggling all the things, the family, the work, the fasting, the not-so-fasting. I've been... The not-so-fasting? Yeah, like I've been revisiting, you know, I probably mentioned it a few different times.

Vanessa Spina

I've been trying different things, you know, I told you I had recently added in this morning meal, like at 10 a.m. before my workouts. And now I'm starting to learn about how to strategically use carbs before workouts and protein.

Vanessa Spina

And I had the most brilliant guest I think I've ever had on the podcast, Dr. Stacey Sims.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yes, which we have a question about her later, so.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I saw that, which was amazing timing, but I interviewed her and she's just so incredible because she is such an expert when it comes to women's physiology and especially women who are active or athletic.

Vanessa Spina

And she really talks about how she had this viral TED talk where it was women are not small men. People, a lot of listeners have probably heard that before, but maybe they knew it was her. They didn't know it was actually from her.

Vanessa Spina

And so she talks about how a lot of the research that's done on things like intermittent fasting and fasted workouts and, you know, protein timing, meal distribution, all this stuff, it's always for the majority of the time done on men.

Vanessa Spina

And so she looks at the research that's specifically done on women and also how things affect our brains and also our ability to recover. And it's just so specific. She just has a very specific and incredible amount of knowledge.

Vanessa Spina

So it was really interesting to interview her and talk to her because I think things are different if someone is metabolically unhealthy. And I kind of told her, this is, look, this is my journey. I'm not an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

Like I tried out for sports in high school. I did not make the teams. Like I was an overweight teen. I was not fit. Like I would get super red if I tried to run a mile or anything like that. I was usually like the one last picked for team sports and stuff like that.

Vanessa Spina

So I became athletic now as an adult, but as a kid, I was not that. And I was someone who became, you know, metabolically unfit, very metabolically inflexible and obese. You know, I was like 38% body fat.

Vanessa Spina

So I told her before we started recording, like, I'm not an athlete. This is my story. I use intermittent fasting and keto and all these things to help me when I was in that really metabolically unfit place.

Vanessa Spina

And now over the years I've started doing resistance training. I started getting energy back as I lost fat mass through keto and intermittent fasting and these different tools and strategies where now I'm this active person and I am building all this muscle and I, and now I have to revisit my strategies like do these things still work for someone who's now metabolically fit and who's very active compared to older version of Vanessa who was unfit and obese.

Vanessa Spina

Right. So it's really interesting because she does say that these things have a place like intermittent fasting has a place for women who have PCOS. As you know, the research on that is amazing for women who have issues with things like PCOS and obesity, they have their place there.

Vanessa Spina

What she doesn't like is when they're applied to the fitness space and women's active women and women who are athletes because there she finds there's more a risk of under fueling and not recovering well.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men who are athletes and athletic, they can sort of get away with some of those strategies even when they're athletic, but women not as much. And so she has this very specific knowledge that has been really interesting.

Vanessa Spina

And I think anyone who's, you know, completely if you completely recompose your body and completely transform your metabolic health, where you're a new person and your activity levels are completely different, you may need to revisit your strategies, you know?

Vanessa Spina

And so now I'm finding things that are like, wow, I'm really fired up about all these things that are now helping me take things to the next level athletically where these other tools really helped me when I was in a different place.

Vanessa Spina

So it's very exciting.

Melanie Avalon

Oh my goodness, I have questions and thoughts. This is actually just a random question. Have you ever thought about doing a TED Talk?

Vanessa Spina

No, I don't think I really have.

Melanie Avalon

I just think about it because I feel like for so many people it's how they get their initial massive audience. Like Cynthia had a TED Talk. I just feel like it's like a thing to do that really gets you out there with a message.

Melanie Avalon

If you have a particular specific message, it's interesting. I would have thought that you would have thought of it. I don't know. I felt like it was something that sounds like a Vanessa thing, like doing a TED Talk.

Melanie Avalon

Like would you want to? It was like given to you like an invitation.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know. It kind of scares me. I think I would need to get to a point in my career where I had a specific amount of knowledge, and I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm still refining things, but I have a specific amount of knowledge that only I have.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe you just need a message that you're really passionate about sharing. I definitely have that. I think there's just a lot of pressure. I had two friends who did TED Talks, Darryl Edwards and Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

Vanessa Spina

When Gabrielle was preparing, she was rehearsing with me. I just felt so nervous for both of them when they were doing it. I knew they were both going to absolutely crush it, and they both completely did.

Vanessa Spina

But I remember the feeling of seeing them go through the process. It was making me nervous because it's a lot of pressure, stepping on stage and delivering this perfect 10, 12-minute pitch. But I don't know.

Vanessa Spina

It maybe would be worth thinking about. What's interesting too is a lot of people, I think, maybe Cynthia, maybe I'm wrong about this. It seems like certain people that I know, I think maybe Cynthia, maybe Dr.

Vanessa Spina

Stacy Sims, they did their TED Talk, and then they started really building a huge following partly because of the virality of that. That elevated all the work that they had been doing over the years.

Vanessa Spina

Maybe I could be totally wrong because I actually don't fully know. This is just what I'm inferring. Whereas other people, and then once they do the TED Talk, they get a book deal and they get multiple book deals and they build this massive community.

Vanessa Spina

But then there's other people who build up their communities in other ways, either with a book first or with a podcast or with an Instagram or whatever, and then they do a TED Talk later. That was more Gabrielle.

Vanessa Spina

She already had built up this huge audience and stuff, and then she was like, I need to do a TED Talk, which just took her message to the next level and her following a community to the next level. Yeah, it's really interesting on when is the best time to do it as well.

Melanie Avalon

I'm really intrigued by it. And now I'm thinking back through all the people I know who have done TED Talks. And I know some of them have, I know I had like a long call with somebody who had done TED Talk and he said it was like the most stressful thing, like the vibes of what you were just saying.

Melanie Avalon

And I remember being like, Oh, okay. But then I've talked to people who are like, Oh, you should totally do one. So any case, a huge question I have about Stacy, and it actually relates to the study a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

It relates to an idea I have about the study we're going to discuss. But you mentioned that she said one of her main concerns is under fueling while fasting. So are, I don't know if this came up specifically, but are the issues from the fasting or are they from fasting if you're an athlete under fueling?

Melanie Avalon

Like is it like required to have the under fueling piece as well?

Vanessa Spina

It's that the, it's that the fasting, one aspect of it is that the intermittent fasting leads to under fueling because especially for athletes, the energy demand, depending on the athlete as well is so high that you can't really, you can't really cut out that fast and that, that eating time.

Vanessa Spina

And for her, it's the ones who like skipped the morning meal or like really push to extend their fasting window late into the day, she thinks it's really not ideal for athletes because of certain hormonal things.

Vanessa Spina

And so one of her things is like, if you're going to do resistance training, you just need 15 grams of protein before resistance training. And this is like a small amount of amino acids that basically signals to your hypothalamus that there's fuel on board and amino acids on board.

Vanessa Spina

And it also helps get into the state physiologically post exercise to recover, which is really interesting. So she has a lot of research showing that specifically in women, one of the ways that we're different.

Vanessa Spina

She also talks about cycle specific things. So things happen around women's cycles. She also talks about really interestingly how women have more oxidative fibers. So we're actually more metabolically flexible than men.

Vanessa Spina

Whereas men don't have as many oxidative fibers. So they have to do some of these strategies like fasting until midday or later to become as metabolically flexible as women. So I was like, that's really cool because usually when you compare women's physiology to men's, it's usually some kind of disadvantage, but this is one area where we actually have an advantage.

Vanessa Spina

It's kind of like.

Melanie Avalon

People debate, I mean, I have read multiple times that women are better fat burners than men. I don't know, but I think there's this idea that we're not as good at fat burners because it seems like dieting and everything comes much easier to men.

Melanie Avalon

But I'm pretty sure from like just a physiological perspective, like we burn more fat when we're exercising, we more easily tap into fat. It's actually all in our advantage. Well, okay, I'll tell you, so this is how it relates to the study we were gonna discuss.

Melanie Avalon

So this study was actually sent to me by my friend James Clement, shout out to James. I love James, he wrote a book called The Switch. I was just thinking about, was The Switch about switching into fat burning.

Melanie Avalon

It's about the switch between A and BK and mTOR specifically is what it's referring to.

Vanessa Spina

Oh, not the metabolic switch!

Melanie Avalon

It probably is on a grander scale, but I think specifically it's been forever since I've read it. I think specifically it's talking more about that. I should revisit that and actually check that.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I'm interested.

Melanie Avalon

In any case, so this study is called Short-Term Post-Fast Refeeding Enhances Intestinal Stemness via Polyaminines, August 2024. And he actually sent me an article about it. The title of the article is Fastings Effects on Stem Cells Linked to Increased Cancer Risk.

Melanie Avalon

So this was a rodent study, but it was really interesting because basically the researchers, they had, prior to this, they had done studies on intestinal stem cells. So they actually found in 2018 that 24-hour fasts could boost the regeneration of intestinal stem cells, which tends to go down with age.

Melanie Avalon

So that's super awesome. And their new study actually looked at the effects of the refeeding process after that fasting on intestinal stem cells. And again, this was specifically in rodents, but what they found was actually an increased cancer risk after the refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And the way that it was set up, so they actually had three groups. So there was one group that just fasted for 24 hours, another group that fasted for 24 hours, and then they ate whatever they wanted for a 24-hour refeeding period.

Melanie Avalon

And then just a normal control group, a normal control group that ate just normally throughout the study. And the mechanisms that they proposed for why there was an increased cancer risk, just specifically in the group after the refeeding period, was likely due to high levels of mTOR Complex 1, which we talked about mTOR a lot on a show.

Melanie Avalon

They found that it increased protein synthesis via polyamine metabolism in that refeeding process. And so their conclusions from that was that when the fasting and the refeeding cycle that you needed to carefully consider and test the diet-based strategies that you implement for that because of this increased cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

Something that's really important to note, which they don't really draw attention to in the article about it, surprise, surprise, is these were mice that had a genetic disposition for cancer. So they were mice that were set up to probably get cancer, and then putting them in this setting where they were fasting for 24 hours and then refeeding, that refeeding process actually did increase cancer risk.

Melanie Avalon

And so I have a lot of thoughts about this. The way it relates to what I was saying about asking you about Dr. Stacy Stems, the reason I was asking the question about is it the fasting or is it the fasting and the underfueling?

Melanie Avalon

So is it actually the fasting that's a problem or is it the fasting which creates underfueling? And so my question here is, is it actually the fasting that's the problem or was it the intense overfeeding period that these rats went through because of the fasting and specifically because they were set up for cancer, a genetic tendency towards cancer?

Melanie Avalon

And I have other thoughts beyond that, but just having laid that out, do you have any initial thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

don't. I read both the study links that you sent me. And well, the first thing that I want, I guess, to make clear is that they were rodent studies, right? I think you mentioned that. So what they find could have no application whatsoever to humans, which is something that I've really been learning recently because there's sometimes extrapolations that have been made from rodent studies to humans that later on are confirmed as having absolutely no parallels whatsoever in humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I used to think, well, if they found it in a mice, it must apply to humans even in a small way, right? And then it turns out, no, it doesn't matter. Like it can be found in mice and then not be a factor at all for humans.

Vanessa Spina

So I just want to preface it saying that I would be really curious to see the research done like in human randomized control trials and see, you know, what, I don't know if you could do this kind of study in humans though.

Vanessa Spina

That's one of unfortunate things about the limitations and ethics. You know, I don't think you could, you couldn't create, I guess you could maybe set up the parameters a little bit, you know, differently or just follow people who do a lot of fasting and refeeding in different ways.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, I mean, I think you could look at ADF. The problem here, well, like you said with the rodents and like the fasting and rodents, it's hard to translate rodents to days to humans because do you do it one-to-one like 24 hours, 24 hours, or like accommodate the fact that a 24-hour fast and a rodent is days and days and days and a human?

Melanie Avalon

So it's like, what actually is the equal fast? Do we even know? And so, but one of the things I just wanted to, I guess something I think we can take away from this, and this is completely mechanistic, but basically, it is possible that you can do fasting and have these beneficial effects and then have an eating environment that could still be potentially detrimental.

Melanie Avalon

So in this situation, and I would like to actually read, I could only access the overview of the study. I couldn't get the actual details because I would like to know if the rodents that were eating whatever they wanted after the fast, like how did that eating compared to the other groups?

Melanie Avalon

Because it was all just, it was just like what they wanted. So I'm not sure like what they were actually eating or how much.

Vanessa Spina

It also just wanted to make a point there. It also, like they said they did three groups, but they weren't all the same. Like one just did fasting, then one did fasting and refeeding. So they didn't, and then there was a third group, but they didn't do like three, like three or four different types of fasting and refeeding.

Vanessa Spina

So how do they know for sure it's the refeeding?

Melanie Avalon

How do they know to what extent the fasting was the cause here? They need a group that was overeating without having fasted as well. That I'd be curious about because that they might, you know, they might find with that, that fasting was actually mitigating some of the effects, you know?

Melanie Avalon

But something I think that we can take away from this, and this actually relates to our next question is I do, this is my opinion, but I think fasting has so many incredible benefits and I think people can do compensatory, take compensatory measures from that, that create problems and then that, and then the fasting gets blamed for it.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that happens with the under fueling with the athletes. Like I, it might not be the entirety of the cause of the problem is they're under fueling, but I feel like it's probably a big part of it.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm curious if we had a population of athletes and maybe there's been the study, but I'd be curious if there's a population of athletes that did not under fuel like at all and was doing fasting, do they see problems?

Melanie Avalon

And then like with the study, I'd be really curious if they were to have a control group of rodents that fasted and then were controlled to eat normally. Like would they see the problems? And then on the flip side, I don't think fasting is a magical cure all for everything, so you could do fasting and then you can still, in your eating window, eat not good food, like carcinogenic, toxic food, processed food,

Melanie Avalon

high sugar food, and fasting might help mitigate a lot of the effects of that. But I don't think it's a magic wand to just completely undo the negative potential of what we do end up putting in our bodies.

Melanie Avalon

So whether it's too little or too much, that stuff still counts. So yeah, fasting seems to be given, it gets all the blame or like all the praise, and I think the approach is actually more nuanced than that.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, I agree.

Melanie Avalon

So, which that does relate to the question. So would you like to read Amy's question?

Vanessa Spina

Yes so first question today is from Amy. I just finished a three day water fast and when i had my first meal afterwards my body swelled up and became very sore. I am assuming it's the return of inflammation does it seem.

Vanessa Spina

Normal to have the inflammation return so quickly or was this likely more of an indication of a food sensitivity slash intolerance it was tough because i hadn't done a fast. Over 20 hours in a long time however i regained my sense of smell i lost it from coven so that was super cool wow amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Amy. Well, first of all, I'm dying to know. And since this was from Facebook, maybe I can ask her, I'm really curious how I really want to know how like when she had COVID was her sense of smell gone for months and months.

Melanie Avalon

And then she did a three day water pass and it came back or like, had she just had COVID and then did it and came back. So it would be hard to, you know, parse out if it was actually do the fasting. But if it had been like months and months, and then she did this and it came back, that would be so, that would be so cool.

Melanie Avalon

I mean, it's cool either way and it's awesome either way. Have you had COVID Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

Have had it one time It was really at the very very end. I got like a very last variant I think it was omnichron or something and it was pretty mild

Melanie Avalon

Did your smile go away?

Vanessa Spina

I didn't, but funny enough, that's how we figured out what was going on. We were actually in Greece and the hotel that we stayed at, you know, Uzo, Uzo, Uzo, I'm probably saying it wrong. Uzo is this Greek, it's sort of like a hooch or like a, like a moonshine kind of thing, or just like a alcohol Uzo.

Vanessa Spina

I think it's homemade sometimes. You can make it homemade or professionally made, but it's a traditional Greek drink, very strong, smells very strong, just like most hard alcohols. And they always have it in the room, in your hotel room, it's like a little.

Vanessa Spina

Like a welcome gift? Yeah, like a welcome gift. Exactly. They have some like nice local nuts and then locally made Uzo. And we always take it and put it away because we don't want our kids to, you know, go and play with it or whatever and knock it over.

Vanessa Spina

So we always take it and put away in the closet. And there was one, I think it was like halfway through the trip. My husband took it, took it out. I think he wanted to like taste it or try it or something.

Vanessa Spina

And he's like, huh, that's weird. It doesn't smell. And we were like, what? He's like, and then he's like, I think I lost my sense of smell because I smelled it and it almost knocked me out of my chair.

Vanessa Spina

And so if he couldn't smell that, you knew it was real. And he's like, I think I have COVID. I was like, no, you don't. He took a COVID test the next day, but that was like his only symptom. Weirdly enough.

Vanessa Spina

I never lost any of my smell or taste. Did you?

Melanie Avalon

So was he asymptomatic, COVID, or was he feeling sick?

Vanessa Spina

He didn't feel great, you know, but he wasn't like super sick. Yeah, it just lasted a couple of days. Like a short cold and mine same for me, but I didn't lose this smell.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah, for me, I had it twice. The first time I had it, it was weird because I didn't feel... It was the day after New Year's Eve, so I thought I had just been out too late and it's funny because I hadn't been actually sick in years, so I didn't realize I was sick.

Melanie Avalon

I didn't put two and two together. I was like, I'm so tired. I actually had a fever the night before. I was dreaming that I was burning up. I was dreaming about fire and stuff, but I didn't put two and two together, and then my smell went away.

Melanie Avalon

My sense of smell, and I was like, oh... I was like, I know what this is. And then when I got it the second time, same thing, I had a dream at night where I was in some sort of hot situation and woke up and didn't think I was sick, but then it started going away again.

Melanie Avalon

I was like, oh, I know what this is. So that was... Last, sorry, last hand gen. I'm so sorry, but it just reminds me of it. My sister and I went out. The Michelin guide recently came to Atlanta and they starred some restaurants.

Melanie Avalon

Do they come to Prague? Is there a Michelin in Prague restaurants?

Vanessa Spina

Yes, there's a couple. There's just only a couple, but yeah, they do come here.

Melanie Avalon

So we've been wanting to go to the different ones and try them. And we went to one called Lazy Betty over the weekend, which was amazing. I highly recommend it. They were awesome. But the bartender was so incredible and giving us all of this free, all these free drinks, but he gave us this, like a spirit made from grapes made from my favorite white wine, grape, melon blanc.

Melanie Avalon

But it was that situation where like you couldn't even like smell it. It would like wipe you out. You had to like, I was like scared of it. I was like holding it far away from me. But I am not a, I do not like hard alcohol or spirits.

Melanie Avalon

They're not my, they're not my cup of tea. Do you, do you like them?

Vanessa Spina

No, I mean, so we were at a little get together yesterday. And I wanted to have some Prosecco. That's my go to. And they said I could only have a bottle, which was like $500 or something. So I was like, Okay, I guess I'll have something called a skinny bitch.

Vanessa Spina

I don't know if you need to bleep that out. But it's an actual drink in Prague. And everybody knows it.

Melanie Avalon

Oh really? It's like common to order.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, it's just vodka soda with a splash of lime.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, yeah, it's like a skinny margarita.

Vanessa Spina

Yes, but when I was back in Texas and I was out with some friends who are also one of my girlfriends who lives in Switzerland and we both were like, yeah, we'll have a skinny bitch. And the waitress was like, excuse me?

Vanessa Spina

We're like, okay, it's not a thing here, but it's a thing.

Melanie Avalon

in Europe. That's funny. Wait, so that's what, so you like it like in a, it's okay. And then like a mixed drink situation, I guess.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, exactly. I'll have it with soda if there's no other options. But over the years I used to have that more. Now I'm more of a Prosecco kind of girl, especially since I tested it with my CGM this summer and saw that really didn't do what I thought it was doing.

Vanessa Spina

So yeah, I feel fine about having those.

Melanie Avalon

which is so interesting to me because Prosecco, I mean, it's a, it tends to be a little bit sweeter, right? Doesn't it? Or is it really dry?

Vanessa Spina

These are pretty dry usually, but I still expected it to.

Melanie Avalon

to do something different.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah. And it just like, well, Kara was explaining to me, just like turns your liver off in terms of putting out, it shuts off gluconeogenesis essentially while it's dealing with the alcohol. So your blood sugar can go down, which is what happens to mine, which is like, I don't think is a bad thing.

Melanie Avalon

This relates to a question we have later. Perfect. I might reorder the question so we can talk about it. In any case, how are we on this tangent? I'm so sorry. Oh yeah. Like COVID and smelling all the things back to Amy's question.

Melanie Avalon

I think Amy, okay. She says, is it normal to have the inflammation return so quickly? So your body's swelling up and becoming really sore after eating. That's not normal. And what I mean by normal is that's not what we should be experiencing in a really healthy metabolic state where what we're eating is really suiting us.

Melanie Avalon

And the processes are all working the way they should be working. I don't want to say it's not normal that, oh, it's like horrible and terrible. And you know, you're an outlier. I don't mean it that way at all.

Melanie Avalon

I just mean that it is a sign that something is not working here because you shouldn't be swelling up and getting sore after eating. You don't have to like sign up for that. It's like part of life. It's like there are other options.

Melanie Avalon

So I would, and the way this really relates to the study before is that that study was showing that even with the fasting, the food eating state, depending on what it is, can be inflammatory. So in that study, it was increasing the risk of, you know, tumor growth in cells.

Melanie Avalon

She says, is it likely an indication of a food sensitivity or intolerance? I'm not a doctor. I would say high probability that that is the case. So I would really look at what you're eating. And the amazing thing about coming off of a lung fast like that is it's a great opportunity to see how you react to food because you should be able to eat food and not swell up and feel bad from it.

Melanie Avalon

So I would think it's probably something you're eating. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina

I think it's probably a combination of inflammation and a food intolerance, so when I used to do a lot of extended fasting, which I'm glad I don't do as much of it as I used to, because I used to do quite a bit of it before, I also would notice similar things sometimes, and especially inflammation, like in my legs.

Vanessa Spina

Whenever I would do an extended water fast for four to five days, I would have no inflammation. It was amazing. It was an amazing feeling of lightness, and my legs especially would get really, I don't know what the word is, not toned, but just free of inflammation, and no swelling, whatever the opposite of swollen and puffy is, hydrated and just perfect.

Vanessa Spina

And then when I would go back to eating normally, I usually would have some return of the inflammation. And I have some friends who are like this as well with their legs. It tends to happen in the ankles or legs.

Vanessa Spina

And I think it can also be fluid shifts. Usually when you're fasting, maybe you're having a little bit of salted water, but you have way less sodium coming in without the food. So you also can release just water from the lowered amount of sodium being consumed, and also from the lowered retention and recycling of electrolytes.

Vanessa Spina

Your kidneys, when your insulin levels fall, which they do quite a bit during fasting, your kidneys don't reabsorb as many electrolytes, so people dump a lot of water, a lot of glycogen to you. But yeah, I think it's probably a combination of those things.

Vanessa Spina

But yeah, it can be really frustrating speaking from experience. I actually, I think, got to the point where I was kind of tired of the back and forth that I would experience from that, whereas now where I'm at, I have to say I don't have any issues with any inflammation, swelling, fluid imbalance issues, or anything like that.

Vanessa Spina

And I don't know, it would be interesting if I did a fast now to see if it would make much of a difference. But I just prefer the stability of it because the back and forth, I would get so much relief from inflammation when I would fast.

Vanessa Spina

But then as soon as I was consuming a lot of food normally after. But I have to say, I did figure out a lot of foods that were more inflammatory for me from it. So whenever you do an elimination diet, there's always a massive opportunity to reintroduce things very methodically.

Vanessa Spina

And a lot of people don't do that, which is actually one of the things that those studies were sort of talking about early in the episode is you can do a fast and get all these benefits, but then if you eat sort of the wrong foods when you reintroduce them, then you might end up causing more damage than if you didn't do the fast at all, which I definitely agree with.

Vanessa Spina

So you want to be specific about consuming healthy foods. You are what you eat, so what you consume definitely will become a part of your body and proteins and substrates and all that. So yeah, I think it's probably a combination.

Vanessa Spina

And if you reintroduce things really methodically, one at a time, and usually it's recommended to do a slice of something and then wait a day and see what happens and then do a little more. And it takes time, but it's invaluable what you learn from it.

Vanessa Spina

I really learned, especially with vegetables, which ones would make me very bloated and I never have bloat anymore because I just figured out what those were and I didn't know before. So yeah, it's a great opportunity to figure out what's really well aligned with your personal physiology.

Melanie Avalon

I'm glad that you pointed out the part about the fluid changes because that's definitely a huge shift and I think the soreness is part of the part that indicates to me that you're having some sort of immune response to the food likely because like pain signals

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, I don't remember having soreness. That part is really interesting and would be interesting to talk to a doctor who's familiar with fasting. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon

No, definitely. Yeah, so hopefully that helps. Maybe we can go to the question that related to the alcohol. All right. So now we have a question from Michelle and this is the one that relates to Dr. Stacy Sims.

Melanie Avalon

So this is perfect. Oh, by the way, did you reach out to her to interview her? Dr. Sims. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, she was on Huberman, but she had been on my radar already. And I had emailed her a little bit before she was on Huberman's podcast. And I think I told you, they wrote back and said that they didn't think it would be a good fit because she wasn't a fan of keto and intermittent fasting.

Vanessa Spina

And I realized that if you look up my podcast, it still had the old description where I talk about keto and fasting a lot. So I wrote back and I was like, oh, that's when the podcast used to be called Fasquito.

Vanessa Spina

And I also think athletes need different strategies. And I would love to talk to her and learn from her. They said, yeah, then that's great. She really likes that and would love to come on. And she was absolutely wonderful.

Vanessa Spina

I think it was my favorite episode of the podcast I've ever done.

Melanie Avalon

Oh, whoa. That's an endorsement.

Vanessa Spina

I know. She's like my favorite guest I've ever had on. She's so passionate about understanding women's specific physiology, but she's also so kind and down to earth. Yeah, really amazing.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So Michelle's question, she says, Hey, Melanie, thank you for answering my question about modal diabetes on the podcast. And the reason she's addressing it to Melanie was I posted this, this post in the Facebook group.

Melanie Avalon

I was very excited. Love you, ladies. Thanks for the tips. Another question that I have about fasting is regarding women in their forties. I just turned 40 this year. I listened to a Huberman podcast.

Melanie Avalon

There we go. Recently where he interviewed Dr. Stacy Sims, she was talking about how women should not work out fasted. And then she puts the little like yikes face emoji, especially as we age and our hormones change.

Melanie Avalon

I don't love eating in the morning right away. And I like to work out fasted somewhere between 9am and noon. Any thoughts on this? I saw on Vanessa's Facebook group that she might be interviewing Dr.

Melanie Avalon

Stacy Sims soon or trying to thank you while we answered that last part. Yeah. So Vanessa, do you have thoughts on this, especially after interviewing Dr. Sims?

Vanessa Spina

Yeah, it's really interesting, I think. So she did mention that she thinks any woman who is active on a regular basis is an athlete. Mm-hmm. That's a definition. Yeah, even if it's recreational. Because I was, you know, telling her a little bit, like, I don't really think I'm an athlete.

Vanessa Spina

You know, I just work out recreationally. And she's like, no, if you do regular intentional exercise, you're an athlete. So that's the way she, that's her perspective on it. So she thinks that there's solid research showing that if women are doing resistance training, just a small amount of amino acid is about 15 grams before the workout is really beneficial for the hypothalamus to know that there's fuel on board,

Vanessa Spina

as she says it, and also for the recovery, it triggers certain aspects of recovery as well and helps women recover better from the workout. She also mentioned that women should have a protein meal, I think she said, within half an hour of a resistance training workout.

Vanessa Spina

And then she also mentioned that if you're going for endurance, that I think 30 grams of carb before. So she personally is an athlete. And she has something called like a protein coffee. And she makes an espresso shot with some protein powder in it.

Vanessa Spina

And she'll just like, sort of do a shot of that in the morning before heading out to do like a cold water swim or something pretty intense. I found this information pretty valuable. You mentioned that you don't love eating in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I'm very similar to that. I don't have an appetite in the morning. But I started eating anyway. And, you know, like I mentioned, I have my first meal around 10am. I usually work out around 11. And having a small meal, like if you just have a protein coffee or like I've been doing a scoop of protein with some oatmeal or with some yogurt, it's really not a huge meal that you feel it when you're working out.

Vanessa Spina

But I would say in terms of like feeling full, which I always worked out fasted partly because I wanted I didn't want to feel full working out. But I think it does. I have been noticing I've been enjoying my workouts so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I've been able to push so much harder. I'm doing a higher weight level now already. And I've gone from doing two to four workouts a week to doing five to six. And then I've also just added an endurance.

Vanessa Spina

So in the last week, I've done two. It's kind of funny, I call it strollerblading, but rollerblading with my stroller with my nine month old. It was so much fun. I went with a girlfriend twice last week.

Vanessa Spina

And this is like a roller coaster for the kid. Yeah, it was really fun. Damien slept the entire time through it. So the second the second time today he was awake and he was just loving it, zooming around.

Vanessa Spina

But this is like a 600 calorie burn according to my Apple watch. And it was really intense, like very hard work. It looks so easy. Like you're just gliding around, but it's a more intense workout way more than my weights or even running in some ways, but super satisfying if you want like a really intense workout.

Vanessa Spina

So the first time I did it, I, I think I was fasted and, or maybe I had just, I had, I know I didn't have any carbs. I had just had some protein in the morning because I was just doing resistance training in the morning.

Vanessa Spina

And I was struggling. Like I was really struggling during that, that hour. And today I chose to take her advice and I had some carbs before we left and it made a huge difference. I enjoyed it so much more.

Vanessa Spina

I was so much more powerful. It was just a much better workout. So I think I had a banana before we left and I had already had some protein powder earlier. So, you know, I understand the importance of, you know, the fasting windows for some people.

Vanessa Spina

And I was like that for so many years, but I think, Like I said, when we first started talking, I use those strategies specifically to help me lose fat. It was very effective keto. Although it has been said to not be the best diet for building muscle, it is, it has been said to be the best diet for losing fat.

Vanessa Spina

There's lots of different ways to do that as well. Even you know, high carb, low fat, or moderate carb, moderate fat, or however you want to, you know, choose your fuel mix. But I think, depending on where you're at, intermittent fasting can be amazing when you want to lose some fat.

Vanessa Spina

But I just want to say, don't be afraid of having a little bit of protein or even a little bit of carb before your workout. Especially if according to the research, it can help you recover better. And you might even enjoy working out more.

Melanie Avalon

Are you fasting at all now or are you eating a little bit throughout the day?

Vanessa Spina

So according to the international fasting consensus, I'm still doing intermittent fasting because the minimum is 14 hours. So I'm eating usually between 10 and seven, which is not that different from that's a nine hour eating window.

Vanessa Spina

It's not that different from what I used to do. But I'm glad you asked because it probably sounds like I'm not doing any fasting anymore. I still am. I'm just not doing a 16 eight, but now more doing a 59.

Melanie Avalon

Yeah. Okay. It's so funny how like when you've been fasting for so long, for longer amounts, like you and I were like 14 sounds, I mean, at least to me, like it doesn't sound like that much, but like it's like so much compared to normal, you know, like normal standard eating.

Melanie Avalon

We come from a different, you know, paradigm now, having been in the fasted world so long. I had one other thought about that. Oh, speaking of the fasting definition. So at the time of this recording that episode actually is this week, like is airing this week.

Melanie Avalon

It's funny because we do each time we do four different subject lines in the email. And then long story short, if people run email campaigns, they'll know how this works. But we do different subject lines.

Melanie Avalon

And then the most popular subject line, it sends the majority of the email or half of the emails to the most popular one. So when we were coming up with the lines this week, I saw all the different ones.

Melanie Avalon

And I knew that it was that week. And so I was like, we have to do something about the fasting definition. And so that that subject line was like, finally, we have a definition for fasting. And that was the most popular winner.

Melanie Avalon

So if you want to know the definition

Vanessa Spina

Yes, and I am planning to interview Dr. Grant Tinsley who spearheaded that paper.

Melanie Avalon

It's so exciting. Awesome. Yeah. So, you know, that was, that was super helpful. And I would love to interview Dr. Sims and maybe she, I'd be curious if interviewing her, if it would change my mind. And by, by change my mind, I mean, I think it's great that approach and that concern surrounding women and under fueling.

Melanie Avalon

So I'm not, it's not changed my mind on that. Like, I think it's, I think a lot of women do under fuel and do need more fuel. And I think a lot of women just in general could benefit from having this other approach to fasting.

Melanie Avalon

So I think that's great. I guess my, my thing, I'd be curious if I would change my mind on is does every woman need to adjust to that? So for example, like Michelle working out in the morning, doesn't love eating in the morning either, and hasn't communicated anything about not feeling well doing that.

Melanie Avalon

Like maybe, maybe she's not, but I'd be really, really curious if my thoughts would change on if you're a woman and you're doing physical activity and you feel fine and you're doing it fasted. Like, is that a problem?

Melanie Avalon

I'm assuming she would say that is still a problem.

Vanessa Spina

You'd have to ask her directly, but I think, okay, on the one hand, like I said earlier, she mentioned that these tools do have a place when someone is, say, obese, or has PCOS, or is metabolically unfit.

Vanessa Spina

So her, I think, concern is more for women who are not in that situation and are already really lean, maybe lower body fat percentage, and then are at that risk of under-feeling because you also don't have a lot of stored fuel at that point, right?

Vanessa Spina

I would say, if you were to ask her, I don't know exactly what she would say, but I would say she would probably say something like, you could do it, but you might shortchange like some of your recovery or some of your hormone levels.

Vanessa Spina

One thing that she's also really big on is eating more protein when you're older. So if you're targeting 30 grams of protein per meal, if you're postmenopausal, she believes you should target more like 40 grams of protein per meal, and her protein recommendations are on the upper end.

Vanessa Spina

It's closer to 1.1 gram of protein per pound of body weight to 1.2, very specific. Again, based on a lot of research. So she's on the upper end of protein recommendations. I think that's because of, you know, she's talking more specifically to an athletic population.

Vanessa Spina

I didn't really ask her a lot of questions about postmenopause, so I know that, so for example, Michelle, she just turned 40, so probably not even perimenopausal yet, or maybe, but she did mention something specifically to women who are in perimenopause, and she has two amazing books.

Vanessa Spina

I think one of them is called Roar, I'm reading it right now. The other one is sort of a follow-up to that one, so I think she has specific recommendations for people in different stages, so I don't really know what exactly, because you mentioned, you know, especially as we age and our hormones change, so maybe you're experiencing some hormonal changes, you'd have to ask her directly to know for sure what she would say.

Melanie Avalon

Somebody else who might be an interesting person to listen to would be Dr. Mindy Peltz. She talks a lot about menopause and fasting.

Vanessa Spina

Our last question is from Diane and the subject is glycogen stores. Does the food you eat during your feast affect your glycogen stores? For example, if I eat a salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than if I have pasta or maybe extra wine with dinner?

Vanessa Spina

Does when you eat the pasta during the fast affect how fast you burn the stored glycogen? For instance, if I open with pasta and close with a snack of turkey, does that change the way it burns? I'm truly enjoying your podcasts and learn something new every week.

Vanessa Spina

Keep up this important work, ladies.

Melanie Avalon

Awesome, Diane. Thank you for your question. And so we think we think she's probably combining two different words in her question, because it's a word that is not a word. So I think she's confused between glycogen and glucagon.

Melanie Avalon

And she kind of made a new word from that, which is awesome. We love creativity. But assuming she's referring to glycogen, which is stored glucose in our liver and our muscles. So the answer is yes. Yes, and is the answer.

Melanie Avalon

So basically, I think it's more important to have a broader view of everything. So rather than thinking about it, like in this specific meal, this order of the food is going to lead to this storage of the glycogen in this order.

Melanie Avalon

It's more about the entire meal. How much glycogen are you going to store from it? And then in the fasted state, what is the hierarchy of burning fuel? So glycogen, like I said, it comes from glucose.

Melanie Avalon

So any food that has carbs can become glycogen. We can also create glucose from excess protein. The pathway there is a little bit longer. And the carbs are going to be the main thing that are more instantly filling up your glycogen stores.

Melanie Avalon

So like in her example of salad and protein with dressing, does it store less glycogen than pasta? Most likely, yes. Well, I mean, but it also depends on the dressing. You know, it's a dressing like really high, like honey mustard, sugar.

Melanie Avalon

So it really just depends on the amount of carbs and glucose that actually end up getting stored. It's like the net carb load. The interesting thing about the extra wine, and this is why it relates to what we were saying earlier, is that wine actually does temporarily, or alcohol, does temporarily decrease glycogen stores, or it can, and decrease blood sugar levels because it turns off the process where the liver is creating glucose and glycogen itself,

Melanie Avalon

gluconeogenesis. And what's interesting about that, which is another tangent side note, but the majority of the blood sugar in your bloodstream is not what you just ate. The majority of it is from your liver churning it out.

Melanie Avalon

So that's a little bit, a slight misconception people have. And that's how things may work like berberine, like my berberine supplement, for example, which can lower blood sugar and metformin, and they may be working in part by impeding the ability of the liver to produce glucose.

Melanie Avalon

Back to the question. She's asking about, you know, the order of it. So like opening a pasta, closing with turkey, does that change the way it burns? At least for storing glycogen, I wouldn't think about it that way so much because it's really going to be the net load of the overall meal.

Melanie Avalon

Because when you're in the eating state, you're in the eating, the fuel storing state, regardless. I would eat in an order that both, that best benefits your digestion and your hunger levels, which might relate to this a little bit.

Melanie Avalon

But for example, people often find, and we talk about this a lot, like opening a protein and centering your meal around protein can have a really safe shading effect, get you the nutrients you need. And then you might find that, you know, having carbs after might be a better approach for you.

Melanie Avalon

You can try different things. This is where CGM really comes in handy. And we've talked a lot about CGM's on today's show. So if you would like a continuous glucose monitor, you can go to Nutrisense.com slash if podcast and you can use the coupon code if podcast to get a discount.

Melanie Avalon

I believe it's $30 off and one free month of free nutritionist support. So we really recommend that. But just to wrap up Diane's question. So yes, it would be the overall net load, mostly of carbs, protein a little bit as well.

Melanie Avalon

But a lot of that's from carbs is determining your glycogen stores. And then oh, one last thing, as far as burning, so like the hierarchy of burning in the fasted state, we naturally burn the glycogen from our liver.

Melanie Avalon

And once we deplete that, that's when we enter into the fat burning. Well, that's when we can more likely enter into the ketogenic state. The glycogen in our muscles is actually saved for like muscle related activity.

Melanie Avalon

So we don't really tap into that while fasting, at least not like in a daily fast. Do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina

That was the most perfect summary and answer ever. There's nothing I could possibly add to that

Melanie Avalon

Awesome. Thank you. Well, so hopefully that was helpful, Diane. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Loving the questions. We're approaching next week is episode 399. It's a special guest episode with Barry Conrad, who's back on the show.

Melanie Avalon

Definitely check it out because we dive deep. Actually, it's kind of like the flip side of today's conversation. We dive deep into fasting as a man. He maintains an epic, epic body composition, does his daily fasting.

Melanie Avalon

We talk about his eating window. We talk about how much time he spends in the gym, which is not a lot of time at all. He's an actor and he's in a lot of really cool things. So definitely check that episode out next week.

Melanie Avalon

And then 400 after that, we're going to do something special. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, directly email questions at ipodcast.com, or you can go to ipodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon

You can get the show notes at ipodcast.com slash episode 398. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ipodcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. All right. I think that is all the things.

Melanie Avalon

Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina

I had so much fun. I love all the questions and can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon

Likewise, I will talk to you in two weeks. Okay.

Vanessa Spina

Sounds great. Bye.

Melanie Avalon

Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient doctor relationship is formed.

Melanie Avalon

If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Melanie Avalon

See you next week.

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Welcome to Episode 397 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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SHOW NOTES

OneSkin: Get 15% off with the code ifpodcast at oneskin.co.

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Episode 332: Special Guest Barry Conrad, Allergies, Food Fear, IF & Social Norms, High Protein Diets, Value Alignment & Lifestyle, And More!

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Adjusting fasting for a crazy work schedule

Working out with resistance training

The magic of a good diet

Protein needs

Australian food vs American food

Sugar content in our foods

Connecting with the podcast

Allergies, bitter, and spicy foods

Whole foods

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #167 - Mark Schatzker

Wine and other alcohols

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 397 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. Welcome back to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very special guest who is actually a repeat guest on the show. That's how you know he is somebody very special. I am so excited. I'm here with Barry Conrad.

Melanie Avalon:
Barry was first on the show for episode 332, and we decided it was high time he come back and share a little bit more about his intermittent fasting journey and experiences for so many reasons that we will get into today.

Melanie Avalon:
Actually, namely, one of the inspirations was Barry was recently in The Heights at the Sydney Opera House in Australia, which is absolutely mind blowing and incredible and amazing. And I wish I could have gone, but we were actually having conversations while he was in the show about how he adapts his fasting, does or does not adapt his fasting to that crazy lifestyle, and decided we should have him back and talk about all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
So Barry, thank you so much for gracing our show again.

Barry Conrad:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be back. How's it going? How are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm feeling good. Like I said, I'll put a link in the show notes to your first episode, where we talked a little bit about your backstory and your history because you've done so many things. You landed a role on Fox's Power Rangers, Ninja Storm.

Melanie Avalon:
Your first feature film was the box office hit the sapphires. Your theater debut was Broadway's Violet, followed by a streak of roles which included Oh my goodness, beautiful, the Carole King musical.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm about to I have not seen that I'm about to see it in a few months here. Do you like that musical?

Barry Conrad:
You're gonna love it so special. You'll know so many of the songs. It's nostalgic.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know that I, this is so embarrassing. I'm sure I know her music, but I don't know that I know her music. I don't know that it's her music. Does that make sense? Like I saw Jersey Boys and I was like, oh, okay, that's their songs.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it gonna be that situation?

Barry Conrad:
It'll be the same sort of thing because she's a songwriter. So so many of these songs will be like, oh, well, I know that song, but I didn't know it's.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, kind of like how Taylor Swift writes for other people as well.

Barry Conrad:
had to segue back to Taylor Swift. Melanie is like the biggest Taylor Swift fan, which I'm sure you all know. Anytime, they do know.

Melanie Avalon:
And you also had a role in Neighbors, which that was the, I feel like I know this is not in your bio, but wasn't that like the longest running soap opera in Australia? Did I make that up?

Barry Conrad:
You actually write, yeah, the longest-running TV series ever in Australia drama, yeah, so it's very cool.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy, crazy. And so, and you're also an ambassador for Panasonic Hawaii, are you okay? I think we talked about that last time. So we can definitely circle back to that as well. But yeah, coming back to the Sydney Opera House.

Melanie Avalon:
So first of all, congratulations. How was the show, the experience?

Barry Conrad:
It was incredible, Melanie, and I actually listen to that tried to wrote Melanie into coming over to Australia, which is like, I only travel for a day. It's like, it's too far.

Melanie Avalon:
I almost came for like one night, me and my sister were like, we're going, we've looked at flights. I told you we looked at flights.

Barry Conrad:
It was incredible. It was so enriching. It was so vibrant. It was a show that I could be present in every single moment of it. This is the first time that I actually felt like I could really enjoy a role and be present in it.

Barry Conrad:
Usually in the past, I've been worried about this or that or whatnot, and this just felt like a chef's kiss. It was just so wonderful. The stories special, the people are special, so talented. It's like a multi-generational story.

Barry Conrad:
Everyone can find themselves in the characters. It's set in New York, my favorite city in the world. I just had a wonderful time, genuinely. It was so amazing. It's only a week since we've closed, so I still feel that processing time of bittersweet sadness, happy, grateful, all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. It actually is amazing. And I swear I know what it is. It is in the heights not into the woods. I love the song breathe.

Barry Conrad:
I have to tell, okay, I'm shouting out to Olivia DeKalb, and I'll get her to listen to this. She played Nina, my character's love interest, and she sounded incredible. Check her out on Spotify as well.

Barry Conrad:
She's a singer-songwriter.

Melanie Avalon:
Does she have that? Can I listen to her singing that anywhere? Is it online anywhere?

Barry Conrad:
I'm sure it's somewhere or we could try to find it for you. Like there's an archival that was recorded of the show, but she is amazing. So props to Olivia DeKalb.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. Like I said, while we were talking during it, not to go straight into intermittent fasting, but what was your dietary approach with fasting leading up to the show and then did you adjust it for the show?

Barry Conrad:
I'm not too sure what I said last time, but still what stands for me is I do generally 20 hours a day on average a week. So 20 hours a day of fasting. Leading up to the show, I was actually really strict and disciplined.

Barry Conrad:
I wanted to be match fit, you know, more than ever, because whenever I'm preparing for a role as an actor, I want to be the best that I can be. And this guy's like a 24 year old guy, like, you know, young vivacious doing his thing.

Barry Conrad:
So I wanted to like be right in that zone. So I really tightened up my diet a little bit more. High protein cut back on the ultra processed food. And I was actually working on something else that I was doing a shoot for.

Barry Conrad:
So I was in prime condition. But by the time the show came around, because we're doing so much choreography. I don't know if it's a combination of the curry slash the eight shows a week, six days a week schedule, but I was able to maybe, you know, bend the rules a little bit more for myself.

Barry Conrad:
Like I was able to eat a little bit more, indulge a little bit more and not be as strict with my fasting. So to give you guys context, on Saturdays and Sundays, we have two shows for both of those days.

Barry Conrad:
So in the middle of the day, sometimes I'll have like three meals, like I have like, you know, I have like chicken teriyaki and rice, and I have like fries, I have, you know, maybe like a club sandwich and people are like, how are you eating all this food and sort of staying in shape?

Barry Conrad:
But I don't know, Melanie, you tell me, like, I think is it, do you think it's the output of the energy or do you think it's the fasting protected nature of fasting? What do you think?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Okay. So many thoughts. And I knew you were going to flip it on me, but wait. So when you quick clarification. So when you're having the three meals in between shows, that was like your meals, right?

Melanie Avalon:
And then you didn't eat again until.

Barry Conrad:
the next day.

Melanie Avalon:
Next day in general it was always like a daytime meal situation and then and then having a show after.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, so we'd have a show like a matinee at like 2, 2 30 p.m. We'd eat at like 4, 4 30. And that's when I'd have these like three meals. But I mean, okay, Australian portions are not American portions.

Barry Conrad:
They're not as big. They're not as big. So I was, we needed the energy. So I was just like, I was inhaling the food, but then the next day I'd do the same thing, but just the Saturday and the Sunday I'd do that.

Barry Conrad:
But it seemed to be fine and stay in really good, really good shape. So I don't know. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I love this question and you actually asked it to me. Like, okay, so here's the thing, Barry sincerely asked me this question. We were having a call and he's like, people, he's like, I eat all this food.

Melanie Avalon:
And people are like, Oh, you can't be, you know, eating all that food and blah, blah, blah. Like what is happening here? Two things to approach. One, I would love to discuss the societal disbelief that people have surrounding this.

Melanie Avalon:
And then two, what is actually happening? And for me, as far as like what is actually happening? So I do think there is this magic. When you do fasting and you're going that period for a long time without eating, and then you do have all this massive food at one time, you have better insulin sensitivity, you process the food better.

Melanie Avalon:
You're not constantly in a fat storing state by eating constantly throughout the day and messing with cravings and all the things. I really do think there's some magic here, which displays itself by people doing it.

Melanie Avalon:
But people don't believe it. You were saying people were not disbelieving of you, that you could eat this much. And do they think you were secretly eating otherwise?

Barry Conrad:
I think people look at that, they just look at the volume of the food quote unquote volume.

Melanie Avalon:
Or did you tell them you were fasting otherwise?

Barry Conrad:
I do tell them I said I do intermittent fasting and people nod maybe in confusion like not knowing what that means and then some people nod like knowing what that means but they still don't quite get because I work out three days a week resistance training and that's it for like 30 minutes a day that's it and then I just fast and people don't they were really just skeptical about how is that possible.

Barry Conrad:
You know.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes cause if people will put pictures in the show notes, but if you look at Barry, he looks really great. He looks amazing.

Barry Conrad:
Thanks, Mel. As do you.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the other thing. So the working out. So you're not spending, you said 30 minutes, a couple times a week.

Barry Conrad:
And I just know, like, gym bros, if any of them listen to this podcast, they'll be like, whatever, bro, like, you're juicing up, you're doing something. But I promise you, it's 30, 35 minutes, that's max.

Barry Conrad:
And that's all I do. But it's just intense. And I just do my thing, and I get out. And I don't know how that works necessarily. But it does for me. So I don't know if that's genetics, or if it's the fasting that's sort of being contributed towards that.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it resistance training?

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, resistance training only. And then especially for this show, like prior to the show, I usually we do like resistance training, maybe do a little bit of cardio on the days in between. But that would look like maybe the Stairmaster for 10 minutes max, or a walk by Bondi Beach, which is an iconic beach in Sydney.

Barry Conrad:
Please come visit us. And that's it. It's not anything crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, you're getting so much cardio during the show, presumably, like so much. Here's a question. Before you started doing fasting, what was your gym approach with resistance training and did it manifest differently?

Barry Conrad:
was still not long. It was always that amount of time. It was never like an hour. Some guys spent a couple hours in the gym, like, what are you doing for a couple hours? That's a lot of time. It was always shorter and more intense, rather than a longer period of time and hitting all these different muscle groups.

Barry Conrad:
I do a full body situation every time and that's it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. Oh, that's interesting. So you don't alternate full body like to failure.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, I go to failure as much as I can. And that's it. I just touch on, like, I'll do chest, shoulders, bias, tries, glutes, hammies, calves, and that's it. And I know a lot of people would think that's not enough.

Barry Conrad:
But at the moment, it's working for me. I know I can keep challenging myself. But Brock Ashby, actually, who was on my show at Bento at BC, he's a personal trainer, and he encouraged me to lift a bit heavier.

Barry Conrad:
So I started actually implementing more of that. And maybe that's helped. I'm not too sure.

Melanie Avalon:
When did you start?

Barry Conrad:
I started lifting a little bit heavier probably earlier this year, but I really just do think maybe it's a combination of that, but a lot of it is the way I eat. As you know, Mal, food is so important on nutrition.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm having flashbacks to the old paradigm I used to exist in where I thought I had to like, you know, go to the gym and I mean, we're talking about going to the gym, but like, like I had to like, that it was all in the gym was where the body was made.

Melanie Avalon:
And that was the lever. And when I first changed my diet, which wasn't with intermittent fasting, and it wasn't even with eating like whole foods, it was switching to low carb, that's when I realized, oh, changing what you eat actually has a massive effect on so many things.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's a little bit magical. And then I just started implementing and integrating more things from there. Like you said, I just think there's so much power in the food choices, the food choices, and then also the fasting as well.

Melanie Avalon:
We also talked to you and I about protein, because people have this, people have this fear or this belief that you need to be eating protein constantly throughout the day in order to support or grow muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
And well, I think we can both speak to that because you're not you are not correct. You're not eating protein constantly throughout the day. And you are are you building muscle? Did you build muscle without eating protein constantly throughout the day?

Barry Conrad:
I don't eat throughout the day, a, like I eat in my one meal, quote unquote, one meal a day or one window of food, but I don't eat throughout the day at all. I don't stress about as soon as I put the last weight down, I'm running to my protein shake.

Barry Conrad:
I don't do that too. I don't subscribe to that myth that you need to do that because I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it's within a 24 hour period, you can consume that protein for it to be effective for protein synthesis and stuff like that.

Barry Conrad:
So I don't stress about that, but yeah, I don't eat throughout the day at all and I don't freak out about it.

Melanie Avalon:
And during that time that you've followed that approach, have you built muscle?

Barry Conrad:
Absolutely. And I also think of the body re-composition. I feel like I'm in better shape now than even like 15, 20 years ago. It's great. It's crazy. I just don't understand how that works. But I definitely the only thing that has changed between now and then is most significantly is the fasting and the nutrition.

Barry Conrad:
That's it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, what I love about this so much is people will say that you need to be eating protein constantly to build muscle. But if we can have examples where people are not doing that and they are building muscle, that means mechanistically, it is possible to build muscle without eating constantly throughout the day, because I build muscle without eating constantly throughout the day protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Actually, Vanessa, I was talking with her earlier today, she actually just interviewed, she interviewed the guy who, I don't know if you saw this or if you, I don't know if this episode has aired yet either on this show.

Melanie Avalon:
They recently have done more research on the whole idea about how long it takes or how much basically the timeline of protein intake and when you can build muscle or not. And they thought it, there was like this window that you had to have protein in and that protein also, after eating protein, it was only anabolic for a certain amount of time.

Melanie Avalon:
And now they don't, they've done research and realized that you can eat a massive amount of protein and it'll still be anabolic for a long time. So kind of flies in the face of what we've thought about.

Melanie Avalon:
So people think that you can't get all your protein at once because the rest will just be wasted. And apparently that's not true.

Barry Conrad:
correct me if I'm wrong because I've heard previously that you could only, for example, like only 30 grams of protein per meal. Is that is that change? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That's been the idea for so long that you can only synthesize and use 30 grams of protein at a meal. And then everything beyond that is like not used for building muscle. And what they've realized, and Vanessa could speak better to this, but what they've realized now is that there's not an end, like it does keep going.

Melanie Avalon:
And one of the reasons that that may be is that the studies, like they would only look for a certain amount of time after eating protein. So they never, they never looked. Like they never looked to see if muscle synthesis continued, which is a big gaping hole in the whole theory.

Barry Conrad:
That's massive. And that's good for me. Because I eat, for example, I will have 500 grams of ground beef at a time, or 1 kilogram of chicken wings at a time. And that's a lot of animal protein at once.

Barry Conrad:
And then I'll also have, for example, a cup or two of Greek yogurt with a scoop of whey protein in there. So that's a lot of protein in one meal. For most people, most people probably get to do. And it's good to know that not all that's going to waste at 30 grams.

Melanie Avalon:
like scientifically, we're not finding that. And like I said, we just see it, like we see you doing it, me doing it, like people are doing it. So clearly, it's, you know, it's working. And did you say, wait, the meals that you eat, are they are they provided by the theater or they like

Barry Conrad:
There's a cafe inside the Sydney Opera House. Sydney Opera House is one of the most iconic gems of Australia. It's incredible. But inside there's this cafe, and they do pretty good food there. It's not provideable, but it's cheaper because it's for the people performing that.

Barry Conrad:
They're not massive. They're not airplane meal size, but they're not my size. As Melanie knows, I love to eat big portions. So three will suffice. Yeah, like you. So one's not enough for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I just want to come see the show. I know it's done, but I would just like, it would have been a great time, a great time.

Barry Conrad:
There'll be other things, I believe it, there'll be other things. You get to all be performing in the States and you get to come to one of the shows. And the US. Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Do a tour. Do a tour. Here's a question. Speaking of the U.S., how often have you come to the U.S. and done stuff here?

Barry Conrad:
Well, the last time I was there actually, I did reach out to Melanie and she was like, sorry, I'm good, I'm busy, I'm probably doing a Taylor Swift thing.

Melanie Avalon:
No, you didn't. Wait, wait, no, you didn't.

Barry Conrad:
No, the last time I was there, no, I did make, I did get in touch with her, but- You have never- No. Remember, I was in New York. I was in New York at one point, but then it was just like, I didn't give you a notice.

Barry Conrad:
I just messaged you when I was there and I was like, what?

Melanie Avalon:
Did you ask if I wanted to like meet up in New York? I don't remember this. I have no memory of this. I remember you being in New York. We're gonna plan something next time you're here.

Barry Conrad:
But we're definitely, the next time I'm there, we'll definitely meet up and we'll put something on social media for you to see. Eat all the protein. Eat all the protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Oh, which I want to, I have questions about that. We're going to like dinner eating and desserts and savory desserts. We're going to talk about that. But I do have a question for that. So when you're in the US and you eat the food here, do you feel any different in your body from eating the food here versus Australia?

Barry Conrad:
180%.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not a leading question.

Barry Conrad:
How do you how do you feel a I love America so much and I can't wait to be living between there and here be I will say that yes there are places that the food makes me feel good but a lot of the places I don't feel as good like maybe it's the produce in terms the animal protein side of things is a bit different but you have to hunt you have to find good spots good quality you don't want to just eat you know I'm not gonna say names but just fast food places and stuff like that obviously it goes without saying but what about you do you find like you have to really source do you look at websites and go okay this is what they use or like you just sort of get to the restaurant and go hmm what can I have that I know will not upset my gut situation.

Melanie Avalon:
This is such a good question. Before that, one quick question. Do you have fast food in Australia? Do you have McDonald's? What? No, I'm sorry. I just Australia is like really far away. I don't know.

Barry Conrad:
Like I said, do we like, you know, have koalas as pets next? Is that the day?

Melanie Avalon:
Are there kangaroos in your backyard? There are.

Barry Conrad:
Right. It's so weird. Because when I lived in South Africa, people used to ask like, do you did you have to like hunt for your food? I'm like, yeah. And they believe me. Like, no, we haven't done we have all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
there are kangaroos like hopping around, right? I'm not making that up.

Barry Conrad:
Not in Sydney, like very in the countryside, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Aren't they violent or aggressive?

Barry Conrad:
They can be, so you probably don't want to get out of the car and try to do a waltz with the kangaroo. You want to keep it moving.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you eat them? Are they on the menu regularly in Australia? Because I like kangaroo. Tastes good.

Barry Conrad:
I actually will say I've never seen kangaroo in a restaurant on a restaurant menu, but I have but it's definitely in our supermarket like in terms of like and the meat is really lean the proteins really good so it's great you just have to cook it not too long so it's not.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my mind is being blown. Okay, because I I have it here. So I've had it. I found ground kangaroo at the grocery store. So I've had that and then there's a restaurant here, my one of my favorite restaurants in Atlanta, they have kangaroo as an appetizer, and it's really good.

Melanie Avalon:
So I always I thought like kangaroo steaks were like a thing in Australia. And I'm kind of sad now to learn that they're not a thing.

Barry Conrad:
Maybe i just haven't found it but it's not typically now it's fairly.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like the leanest red. It's so cool. It's so cool. It's like super lean red meat.

Barry Conrad:
That's it for Melanie Evelyn.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, stock up on it. But to answer your question, I feel like I have to go to a certain type of restaurant here in the US, which is basically like steakhouses or French restaurants or Italian restaurants that have, it sounds so pretentious, that are not like, that are nice.

Melanie Avalon:
And if they're nice, like literally $3 signs, if they're nice, if they're nice, then I can go in and I know I can typically find something on the menu, like a protein that I like, and then I can have the, you know, I can ask for requests to, you know, adjust it for me, and I'll be good.

Melanie Avalon:
And I basically can handle or tackle most restaurants like that and eat it there and walk out feeling okay. Like if I don't make modifications, though, it's a little bit suspect. And yeah, because there's just so many additives and seed oils and all the things.

Barry Conrad:
I can't wait to be over there and actually get a restaurant with you and just to see you in action as you order. So can I please like basically I want it like prepared like this and not nothing.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know if we talked about this last time, but I have been a server in a restaurant for a long time and fine dining. And so I feel like I understand what they have to go through to do that. So I appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon:
I have gratitude. I ask very nicely. I want to empower people. I mean, you're the customer. You're paying them. They are making money off of you. You have the right to adjust the meal so that you enjoy it the most and feel good.

Barry Conrad:
Oh, trust me, I adjust as well in a way that's polite, obviously, but some people feel uncomfortable with that. To circle back to what you said about fast food, I will actually say, do you know Thomas DeLauer?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I've had him on the show on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast.

Barry Conrad:
I saw something on maybe Instagram where you talked about differences in fast food or something compared like America compared to Europe and stuff like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it different?

Barry Conrad:
It really is like from Australia. It's I don't know why like but the McDonald's here versus say a McDonald's I've had in LA or whatever it is different it's I mean doesn't mean it doesn't taste better there but the way I feel is completely different.

Melanie Avalon:
It's really horrible here. It's really bad. I remember I used to, because my international traveling experience mostly revolves around Germany, because they have family there, I would always have the Harrybo gummy bears.

Melanie Avalon:
And they're a completely different Harrybo. Do you know that brand? Do they have that in Australia? I don't think so. Guess not. Sad day. I think people here will know what it is. It's a gummy line. It started with gummy bears, but now there's all these gummies.

Melanie Avalon:
It's a thing. Big in Germany, but big here, too. And the ingredients are so different. In Germany, they use natural things to color it. Here, it's all these random colorings. And then here, we use corn syrup.

Melanie Avalon:
And there, I don't know what they use, but it's not probably... It's a completely different formula there versus here. It's upsetting. A lot of people here will say they go to Europe, and they can eat the grains there, and they don't have the reactions to bread and things like that.

Barry Conrad:
other than restaurants in America, I've actually never gone out and bought a loaf of bread there because I just...

Melanie Avalon:
in America?

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, it really is different. Over here in Australia, the sourdough bread is so good. Generally, the bread's pretty good over here. I don't know what it is in the water over there. Also, I'm not generalizing.

Barry Conrad:
Not everyone has bad bread in the United States of America, but it does feel different from my past experiences so far. That probably will change.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, here's a fun fact for you. Are you ready? I learned this this week. So in Ireland, Subway bread does not qualify as bread. What? Yeah. Because of the sugar content, because it's full of sugar, it was too high for the country's legal requirements for the food to be called bread.

Melanie Avalon:
So instead, in Ireland, Subway bread is classified as confectionaries.

Barry Conrad:
That's wild. That's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
That's telling is what that is. It's telling.

Barry Conrad:
It's scary because a lot of parents for example would be like no let's have a sandwich like this is healthy and it's not because of them. You know turning a blind that's that's because we're told it's fine to have bread but no breads the same.

Melanie Avalon:
It's like full of sugar. That's crazy. It's crazy. It blows my mind, and I think about this more often than I should, but breakfast cereals here in the US, it blows my mind that this is what is taught to us as the thing to start children off with for the day for a healthy start.

Melanie Avalon:
And you look at all the breakfast cereals, and it's like ADA approved, like American Heart Association, good for your cholesterol, healthy multivitamins, minerals, eat this now. And it's literally sugar.

Melanie Avalon:
They get sugar down their throat.

Barry Conrad:
It wasn't that spirited by a brand. I'm not going to say the whole number K, you know, substitute K.

Melanie Avalon:
Vanessa and I talked about this on a recent episode, which probably hasn't aired yet, but we talked about how—actually, by the time this comes out, it will have aired—but we talked about how basically Kellogg's—that's the name.

Melanie Avalon:
There's a whole history to it—but basically, Kellogg himself, the reason he created it was because he wanted—it was a moral thing. He wanted to stop men's sexual desires, and he thought that this bland food would stop their libido, which is kind of telling.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's fun fact one. Fun fact two—so many things. So have you heard the phrase, breakfast is the most important meal of the day?

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, who hasn't? That's what we're told, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Guess who came up with that?

Barry Conrad:
Mr. Kellogg?

Melanie Avalon:
Kellogg's, it was a marketing thing. We were told this as health mantra of life and literally it was marketing. It's so upsetting. It's really upsetting.

Barry Conrad:
It's upsetting and also just the power of marketing, like that's amazing for what they wanted to achieve because they achieved it, but it's just like, wow, like everyone lives their life by that because of that.

Melanie Avalon:
In Australia, do they have these breakfast cereals marketed heavily to kids?

Barry Conrad:
Cocoa pops can your cornflakes every like it's the whole yeah, it's everywhere. Of course. Yeah, it's really upsetting. So

Melanie Avalon:
Here we are.

Barry Conrad:
When I go to the States and I'm staying at a hotel, for example, and I typically don't have like breakfast, meaning like early in the morning. But when I do, I'll definitely do it at the hotel because it's like it's the buffet and stuff like that.

Barry Conrad:
And when I do that, I'll just smash the eggs, try to find because the bacon over there isn't typically great. There's usually biscuits and gravy and stuff like that. So I'll just try to go poached eggs, tomato, mushrooms and stuff like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Here's a question. So when you are traveling, do you, because I'm kind of jealous of you because I'm so intense with my intermittent fasting, I have to do it, like I have my system, I do it the same way all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
Even if I'm traveling, are you more fluid? Do you adjust? How do you do traveling?

Barry Conrad:
It depends what the purpose of the travel is for. If the travel is for a work trip, I will typically try to stick to my protocol. But at the same time, if I'm in town and people want to take me out somewhere, I'm not going to be religious about it and say, sorry, the clock is still at 16.49.

Barry Conrad:
But if it's like a vacation, I'm going to not be crazy. I'm not going to go to the extreme, but I'll definitely enjoy myself. Because I know that I believe it's what you do most of the time. And I feel like that is protective.

Barry Conrad:
I don't know how that works, but I do think that your body sort of thanks you for doing what you do most of the time. So when I get back home, I'll just jump strip back in and I'm the type of person that can sort of just go cold turkey, meaning like I can just switch really easily.

Barry Conrad:
I can go into a couple of weeks of just like not fasting if I wanted to and then just jump strip back into fasting and not... I think it's just practice. At this point.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm the same way, not that I do always do the fasting, but I'm the same way with the cold turkey, like extremist. I can just, with things in life, I can just go all in really intensely either way. I don't have to like build up to it and I don't do good with moderation.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, do you remember the first time you consciously decided to try intermittent fasting?

Barry Conrad:
I've actually been trying to wreck my brain for this answer because I think I don't know, Mel, I've been trying to figure I know it's been a good five, six years now since I've done it. But I don't know the first exact moment like it wasn't like a penny dropped in something I don't know.

Barry Conrad:
But I did. I do know that I started with 19 hours. I started there. And you clocked it on the clock. I did. I feel like I started listening to your podcast when you were doing it with Jen Stevens. And I was like, what the heck is this thing?

Barry Conrad:
What? I just I was because I'm always fascinated with

Melanie Avalon:
How did you find our podcast?

Barry Conrad:
I don't know, I just, I was looking for health and fitness topics on Spotify, and I think I was at the tail end of doing a show at the time, I was like, oh, what can I listen to? And that came up, and it was really interesting.

Barry Conrad:
I was like, oh, listen to this. And then, to be honest, your show, this very show that I'm on right now, was a major catalyst for me really sticking to it. And I'm not just saying that just to say it, like it really was a pivotal, because the stories were great, the science was great.

Barry Conrad:
I loved the banter between you two. It was just really informative, really relatable, and not too sciency, but also had science enough to back it up, so it wasn't just like some cult or something, you know?

Barry Conrad:
So it was great.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, it makes me so happy.

Barry Conrad:
So it's actually quite actually, to be honest, Mel, it's surreal to be on your podcast. I know that we've known each other for a while now, but I want to say thank you because this podcast actually has been a major contributor towards me sticking to what I'm doing and has taught me so much about fasting.

Barry Conrad:
So thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. Thank you for sharing that. And that just, it makes me, I'm so honored and happy. And I love hearing that because it's really nice to know that, because I feel like with this show, I mean, it's like, I know it's been a long time.

Melanie Avalon:
And when we're recording podcasts, it's just you and the other person who can't even see because I refuse to do video. And so you don't see like all the people who may be listening and how it may be affecting them.

Melanie Avalon:
So thank you for sharing that. Oh my goodness. That's crazy.

Barry Conrad:
It is crazy, actually.

Melanie Avalon:
think we talked about this last time. I don't know how we even connected originally. I think you were maybe sharing stuff about the show on Instagram.

Barry Conrad:
Instagram yeah that's gonna be me but i definitely hundred percent no in twenty nineteen i was listening to the show that's my first time listening to it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, crazy pre pandemic era. That's crazy. Oh, that's that's a question. When the pandemic happened did, because I know for a lot of people, well, people reacted all different ways. But I know a lot of people actually, it actually helped their health journey because they like, you know, were able to actually like tackle things.

Melanie Avalon:
How did the pandemic affect you when it came to your health and dietary choices?

Barry Conrad:
It was it goes without saying that it was really rough. I mean, for me, personally, it was really tough.

Melanie Avalon:
especially in your industry, because your industry like shut down.

Barry Conrad:
The industry shut down here in Australia, and I'm sure in the states as well, you know, so it's like, how am I going to get through this, you know, it was really stressful. I did probably turn a bit more to a little bit more ultra processed food at the same time, I still did not deviate from my fasting protocol.

Barry Conrad:
And I do believe that was protective. And I still kept up on workouts. I am a pretty self motivating person. So I, in the face of stress would rather say I'm not going to take this so like double down on what my whys are like what my goals are.

Barry Conrad:
So even though it was tough, I stuck to generally what I'm doing now. But I probably did allow a bit more wine, a little bit more comfort food, quote unquote, you know, during that time. It's very isolating.

Barry Conrad:
What about you? What how did how did you handle that time?

Melanie Avalon:
So I was really grateful that my job, everything I was doing was all, it was like podcasting and it was stuff that didn't rely actually backtracking. It actually was a really beautiful moment for my life because I was still, I mentioned earlier doing restaurant jobs.

Melanie Avalon:
So I was still doing a restaurant job when the pandemic happened. And I had gotten to a point with the podcasting and everything that I didn't actually need to be doing the restaurant job financially, but it felt safe because I was clocking in somewhere and I got a paycheck.

Melanie Avalon:
That felt safe. And it was really scary to think about doing everything on my own as an entrepreneur, as a podcaster. That was terrifying. And so I knew for a long time that I should quit my restaurant job and just focus 100% on this type of stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
And I honestly, the pandemic happened and then I lost the restaurant job because they cut people. It was actually a beautiful thing for me because I'm really curious about how long I would have stayed in that.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'm completely like, people need the jobs that they have and I was in it for a reason and I support people doing all of that. But for me, at that time in my life, I didn't need to be there anymore, but I was scared to let go of the security blanket that it gave me.

Melanie Avalon:
And so the pandemic happened, I lost it. And then I realized, oh, I actually don't need it financially and I can be doing these other things. And so it was actually really good. It's amazing. Yeah. It was actually really, really helpful for me for committing finally, because it's scary to be...

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, you know, it's scary to be living on your own, not clocking in somewhere.

Barry Conrad:
hundred percent relate to that and it is tough because it's like what's going to happen but you actually yeah you know the magic actually the magic happens more when you actually make that choice to leave and i'm sure that you can attest to that like things open up more it just happens

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. I remember literally when I lived in LA, my hairdresser told me one of her client, her other clients was like a bartender, and then I'm probably like an actor or something. But she told me like, once she quit her job and like committed 100% to this other route, that's when it really took off.

Melanie Avalon:
And I saw that for me as well. And everybody has their own path. But for me, that's what was really, really helpful.

Barry Conrad:
Does it affect your fasting protocol and or your nutrition or not really?

Melanie Avalon:
No, fasting and the way I eat has been something that has provided, like it makes me feel really good doing it and it's provided a really nice anchor and stability. And so I didn't, I didn't change it during the pandemic and I'm really grateful for that.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember actually, do you know my David Sinclair story about this by chance? Do you know David Sinclair? Of course, yeah. So he was one of my first guests on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast and he's a legend.

Melanie Avalon:
He kind of discovered resveratrol, he didn't discover it, but he popularized resveratrol, oh, which we have to circle back to wine, but that's one of the anti-aging compounds in wine. And he had a book called Lifespan, which is one of my favorite books ever.

Melanie Avalon:
And so I had him on the show, on the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast early on, like when it was barely anything, barely any guests. And I just emailed him to his Harvard address and I was like, do you want to come on my show?

Melanie Avalon:
And he was like, sure. And that blew my mind beyond belief. But when the pandemic happened, so I don't know if you remember, do you remember when the pandemic happened and there were all these podcasts about the pandemic?

Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember that?

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, it was like it's very sensational as it was like a thing was a moment.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like all the podcasts are about it like everywhere. And so I was like, I feel like I need to do an episode on the pandemic because everybody's doing an episode on the pandemic. And this was before it got political, like you could actually do an episode and not feel weird.

Melanie Avalon:
So I reached out to David and I was like, do you want to come back on for an episode on the pandemic? And he was like, sure. Just like mind blowing. And again, that was before it was political. So he came on.

Melanie Avalon:
But the point of the story is I remember one of the things he said on that episode was that this could be an opportunity. Like he was talking about like health and lifespan and everything. And he was saying that this pandemic situation, like this is an opportunity for people to actually come out healthier on the flip side.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you have choices you can make now. And you could use this time of being away from society and your normal thing and all the stuff and actually, you know, work on your diet, go to the gym and like come out even stronger.

Melanie Avalon:
And I'm paraphrasing, of course. But I thought that that was so inspiring. I feel like that's the way it was for me.

Barry Conrad:
I actually really relate to that as well, like creatively, I actually got so much out of it as well, like, writing and things like that. So I get that, like, you know, it was a good like, what other choice did you have, but to, okay, the option is either to bow down and just, you know, be on the bathroom floor, or what, what can I do in this isolation sort of thing, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, yeah, because to that point, and I think one of the problems with modern society is because of the way food has been created to satisfy, like literally instigate all of our feel good neurotransmitters in our brain, it was so easy, and I understand why, to turn to these processed foods and everything as comfort and nourishing, because that's literally how it's designed.

Melanie Avalon:
It's designed to make you feel good. So for a lot of people, I think that became, you know, there was the whole, like, what do they call it? Like the pandemic, because there's like the freshman 15. There was like the COVID 15.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. I can see how there was different paths for different people. I'm really glad we're on the flip side.

Barry Conrad:
I'm so glad travel to travel as well if you can go anywhere.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. And it was crazy in Australia, right? I feel like you guys were like the most intense.

Barry Conrad:
We had like, I don't know what it was like there, but five kilometer radius. So basically you could only walk within five kilometers, like to the park or. Yeah. We had like a 5k radius that we could explore from our houses.

Barry Conrad:
We kind of go beyond that. It was just, it was insane. It was a lot. So I thankfully was living.

Melanie Avalon:
Are they monitoring that?

Barry Conrad:
or that was like on our code. No, they're monitoring it. There was cops out on the south spot. How do they monitor it?

Melanie Avalon:
But how would they know where you were from?

Barry Conrad:
They would basically stop you and say, where do you live that are like, yeah, as intense and so thankfully, I was living by the ocean and I was able to just take ocean walks that really got me through, which is what is part partially when inspired.

Barry Conrad:
My song ocean road to shameless plug right there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, really? Wait, I have to listen. Ocean Road, OK, putting in the show notes. I'm going to look after this.

Barry Conrad:
As you said, cloudware on the flipside.

Melanie Avalon:
So, you know, I eat a lot of natural, real foods, a lot of cucumbers and such and blueberries. So like my normal buying habits are to go to Costco and buy like 15, three packs of cucumbers, like 10 bags of blueberries.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I buy a lot of the same thing. And yeah, it's like a whole thing. Like they know me there. Like they really know me there. It's kind of crazy. So like the pandemic happened. So I would like go places and buy what I normally buy.

Melanie Avalon:
And you know, there was like the idea of like people were like stockpiling. And I felt like I needed a sign that was like, no, I always buy 50 cucumbers. Like this is my normal habit. This is not like I'm not freaking out.

Barry Conrad:
who's the blonde lady she's like she's stealing all the stuff we need

Melanie Avalon:
Like, he's like stockpiling. No, I'm not stockpiling. This is just how I shop. I'm sorry. So

Barry Conrad:
I'm just trying to get a visual of you buying all of these cute, do people look at you funny when you do that?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh yeah, no, they know me, like they know me. For real, like they know me. It's a thing.

Barry Conrad:
a lot of skelops, right? You love skelops, that's your thing.

Melanie Avalon:
Scallop yeah so basically it's scallops blueberries and cucumbers and massive amounts and if I don't buy the scallops one day they'll be like where's the scallops and if I don't buy the blueberries like where's the blueberries.

Barry Conrad:
Okay, Team Blueberries, Team Cucumbers, I haven't bought that many knee scallops, but I do like them. I do like them though, but they're expensive too. They're not cheap.

Melanie Avalon:
Fun fact for the audience, Barry, not scallops, but in the same family of shellfish, Barry was reacting allergicly to shrimp and decided he liked shrimp too much for that and he was going to fight his way through.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this story. So you like deconditioned your body to shrimp, right? Like you can eat shrimp now.

Barry Conrad:
I don't know how it's possible but i Melanie is exactly right i would literally blow up my neck and face would expand and break out in hives every time i had shellfish it's so crazy like actually scary, what my stubbornness of not wanting to give up the enjoyment of this room like friends like i'm not giving this up.

Melanie Avalon:
like small amounts no no oh you just go big but you're good now i'm good now okay so when you visit we're gonna have a shrimp cocktail as an appetizer

Barry Conrad:
Do you know that I've actually never had one of those before? I know what they are. Don't, don't yell at me. I know. It's like one of my favorites. I know what it is. I just, it's not a thing here in Australia really.

Barry Conrad:
Sadly, it's not.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so okay, we're gonna have one of those.

Barry Conrad:
been talking about shrimps aka prawn, we call it prawns over here.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you call them prawns? Yeah. Whenever I think of prawns, I think of that Cloverfield movie or no. Do you know that movie? Which one? Oh, District 9. With that movie, I think of District 9.

Barry Conrad:
Hi, Prawns. Often I'll go back to fasting geek territory, like I would often open my window with a plate of prawns, aka shrimp, with salt and pepper, maybe a little bit of mayonnaise or peronnaise, and some wine.

Barry Conrad:
So it's really refreshing. Peronnaise? Peronnaise, I don't know if they have... It's kind of like a spicy mayonnaise, kind of like... Whoa, I don't think we have that. If you don't have either a hack to make it, so it takes some normal mayonnaise or a healthy mayonnaise and just basically thrash it with cayenne pepper and you just spice it up and you just dip that in there with a little drizzle of lemon and you're good to go.

Melanie Avalon:
That's good. Okay, I'm not a big Kyan fan, but it sounds sounds interesting. Not a spicy. Yeah. No, not I'm not big on the spiciness. Oh, did you know you want to know a fun fact about spicy. Did you know that there's no evolutionary explanation for why humans like spicy like it literally causes us pain, but there's no reason for why we would eat it.

Melanie Avalon:
I find this fascinating. What? Yeah. So like everything out like bitter. Okay. So like when we eat bitter, it's like, oh, it's like, it's like signaling that it's a plant, anti nutrient against the past.

Melanie Avalon:
And like it helps us with all of that, like spicy. There's no, it's literally pain. And there's no reason that we would be doing it. Humans are the only people that willingly eat spicy animals do not animals will go eat like bitter plants because they know it's good for them.

Melanie Avalon:
And medicinally, spicy. Nope. Just humans.

Barry Conrad:
That's really interesting actually that's that's fascinating how did you like how do you find that out that's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know. I'm like a, just a collection of family.

Barry Conrad:
Fun facts. Because, listen, I was born in South Africa and- Is spicy big there? Yes, spice and curries and things like that. My palate is just very diverse, so I can really appreciate spice and hot food, and I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So, and you have that, what's it called? Lion? Wait, what, what was it called? Something Nate, Pyrenees. Pyrenees. Yeah.

Barry Conrad:
Maybe this is an Aussie thing, paradise.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it might be. I don't think we have that here.

Barry Conrad:
But can you will you maybe potentially kind of maybe try it.

Melanie Avalon:
I knew you were going to ask that. I knew, I knew that was going to, no.

Barry Conrad:
But what if you just like dip your little pinky into it and go, maybe it's kind of okay.

Melanie Avalon:
Barry is always like, will you maybe try this one thing just once, maybe?

Barry Conrad:
like oysters. Melanie, Ellen doesn't know oysters.

Melanie Avalon:
I will try oysters because oysters fit in my, like, real food animal thing-ness. I don't like spicy though.

Barry Conrad:
Did I ask you about travel? So when you travel, does your, okay, let me give you a scenario to give a context. If you're traveling for family vacation for a week, I know that you like to travel for a day, but just stay there for a week.

Barry Conrad:
And it's like family, you know, you're celebrating maybe a birthday or something like that. You're there for a week. Will you adjust your, not all allowances, but would you change your eating protocol, aka, or your fasting protocol or not?

Barry Conrad:
And why?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So, so many thoughts. I think honestly the hardest thing in my intermittent fasting journey has been the social situation of how people think it's weird to make certain dietary choices or certain fasting protocols.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it seems really weird. And the hardest part for me has been knowing what feels good in my body and being okay with that and not feeling bad, like not feeling like I need to change what I'm doing for other people.

Melanie Avalon:
Like that's been really, really hard. So when I travel, which is not like all the time, because as you know, it's not my skillset, but I am much happier with everything if I just eat what I really know that I like.

Melanie Avalon:
And when I go to like parties or things like that, like I know what I like. And if I eat that and drink that, I feel better in my body. And so I it's been a whole journey to like accept that I can do that and not have to feel bad about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Because people really want you to eat the things like they really want you to do. I agree with that. And I actually had a moment recently, which is like this beautiful shining moment. So my mom has kind of been not the most accepting of my dietary choices for a long time.

Melanie Avalon:
So because I first went low carb in 20, I think like 2010. Can you tell me what?

Barry Conrad:
That means what is what is local mean in the context like.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, so in 2010 is when I found the whole Atkins keto thing. And so I just counted carbs, basically. So I stopped eating sugar and grains and like I was eating a lot of meat and dairy, a lot of dairy as well.

Melanie Avalon:
But I was counting carbs, like counting carbs. And that's when I started that. That was 2010. I started intermittent fasting in 20, probably like 2011 or 12. And then I started 2012, like cutting out processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's been a long time of going to restaurants with my family and being crazy with what I order. Because even with low carb, I wasn't with low carb, I was not modifying it as much as I do now. But I was eating really low carb and making modifications, like ordering weird things and not eating dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
And my mom was always so like not about she was not about it. And she texted me like week before last, probably. And she said, quote, I have an apology for you. And I was like, Oh, gosh, like what happened?

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, what? And then she was like, she started doing an elimination diet by her doctor's referral. And she's realizing how much she reacts to foods and how it makes her feel. And she was like, I'm doing an elimination diet.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm realizing that I can't tolerate these foods. And I'm so sorry that I gave you so much grief for so long about ordering certain things at certain restaurants. And now she's like all about it. And for like a week straight, I got a text like every day being like, I'm so sorry that I so point being of all of that is there's this crazy because food is really social.

Melanie Avalon:
And I do love like enjoying meals with people and social context and enjoying it. And but to answer your question about what I modify for situations like with family and traveling.

Barry Conrad:
Let me give you an actual hold on. Let me give you a thing. If Barry Conray came over there, I was like, no, we're going out to eat. You know, we're doing this, we're doing that. Would you if I ordered, I'd probably typically ordered mainly sort of the same ballpark of what you'd have for like the appetizers, mains and stuff like that.

Barry Conrad:
But if I ordered like, maybe like a dessert, would you have like a spoon of dessert, of my dessert?

Melanie Avalon:
I would eat what I, because here's the thing, like I would, I get so much joy from, because I, okay, multiple things here, thing one. And there are different types of people, we talked about this earlier, like extremists versus moderationists.

Melanie Avalon:
For me, it's like AA, like having a bite of that sugaryness makes me just, it does not feel, it tastes amazing. And then I am craving and wanting. It's like not an experience that I like having, like it's horrible.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I'd rather just not have it. And I can genuinely, honestly, I know you don't believe me, but you having it, I can like enjoy like you having it and like seeing it and hearing from you how it tastes.

Melanie Avalon:
And then I get the best of both worlds. Cause I get to enjoy it, like the idea of it without getting that intense craving feeling.

Barry Conrad:
So, you know, it's really weird what in a kind of maybe similar way, like, I often ask people, even if it's like someone that I just met, like, we'll talk, make small talk and stuff. So also, what's for dinner or what's for lunch?

Barry Conrad:
And that's my way of enjoying vicariously. What do you want to know? Like, you're weird. What a widow like they want to know. Same, same. There you go. I get it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh, wait, I have a good example for that. Here's the thing, okay, I'm so happy you said that. Okay, so this is my question for like you and the universe. So, you know like food shows or like show all the stuff and like all the things?

Melanie Avalon:
For some reason, if you watch that, but you actually eat the stuff as well, it's like all fine. Like you're allowed to like watch it and like be like, oh, if it looks so good and like fantasize about it and then eat it, like you're okay.

Melanie Avalon:
But if you watch it but don't eat it, now you're like weird. And I don't understand that.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, you gotta, you gotta eat it.

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, you just like undid everything I just let up to.

Barry Conrad:
No, no, I don't understand what you're saying. Like you can't you can live vicariously through. No, I get it. Because I do the same thing. I'm like, oh, and I always ask people like, Oh, so what's for dinner?

Barry Conrad:
Because I when they describe it, something about them describing the food, I can picture myself doing it. And that's like a bit of a dopamine hit. I'm like, cool, I'm good to go.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like I my hack my hack and this is I've talked about this on the show before so I feel okay about saying it now but those foods are so good and it's they're engineered to make you addicted to them.

Melanie Avalon:
So it makes sense. So my hack is I will like when I'm eating my meal at night, I like my blueberries, which tastes sweet and tastes amazing and are healthy for me. Sometimes I'll like look at other foods that are like that I actually wouldn't eat.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's like I get to experience them vicariously while still eating amazing food. And everybody wins because I'm not going to actually eat it because it makes me it's not good for me and it makes me feel like not good.

Barry Conrad:
I will say, Mel, like one thing that I have changed, maybe the past, I think I've mentioned this to you before, like the past couple months, I did cut back a lot more my ultra processed food. And what I mean by that is a lot of food that we buy is processed in some way.

Barry Conrad:
But ultra, I mean, like your cheetos and your chocolates and stuff like that, you know, I mean, like, and just that alone has made such a difference. I've still been able to drink as much because I like to drink while I cook like a much on a mess up, sound like alcoholic, like I cook and drink at the same time I enjoy it, you know, I can drink a lot more wine, I can eat a lot more food, but it's real foods,

Barry Conrad:
whole foods. And I can digest a lot more and get the same results somehow without having the ultra process. So can you speak to that a bit more? Like, why is that? How does that work? Because I can eat a lot of more chicken or more rice or fruit or whatnot, and wine, and just cutting out a couple more blocks of chocolate or whatever, it makes a difference, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, there is magic. There's such magic to eating complete whole real foods, which is kind of like the theme of this episode. But like when they're in their whole foods form, it takes a lot more energy to digest them.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not like instant, just energy going straight into you from the from the processed foods. And the amazing thing is once you actually do clean up your palate, and people don't believe this, and I wouldn't have believed it because I used to eat all the foods.

Melanie Avalon:
But you start craving natural real foods in their whole form. And that's what's hard to communicate to some people. But I am so satisfied eating my stuff I eat, which is like plain meat, plain chicken, plain scallops, cucumbers, blueberries.

Melanie Avalon:
And it tastes amazing. Like I get the best of both worlds. And I mean, we could do a whole tangent. But actually, so there's this guy named Mark Shatsker who wrote books called The Dorito Effect and The End of Craving.

Melanie Avalon:
I've had him on the Melanie Avalon Biohive podcast. Okay, so his theory, which is mind blowing, is that this is like a whole, whole tangent. But his theory is that when so like foods have these added vitamins, and they have added like sweeteners that are non caloric.

Melanie Avalon:
And it sends a lot of confusing messages to our body because on the calorie side of things, like it tastes super sweet, but it has like artificial sweeteners. So it's like not exactly what we think. And then the vitamins, we get vitamins, but not in the context of the way they would have been naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
And basically, it makes our body just freak out and like shut down, like metabolism wise. And there's been studies on this. So I mean, he goes to the extreme like saying that if you have a sugar free processed food with less calories, you'll gain weight because your body shuts down because it's getting mixed messages about it.

Melanie Avalon:
But I think there's something really big to eating whole foods in their natural form with the vitamins that they have the nutrients that they have and like communicating the right signals and feeling satiated compared to these processed foods, which are all over the place and oftentimes, oftentimes high energy with no nutrients on the flip side of things.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just it's not good. Like it basically just puts our body into a constant fat storing mode and possibly a state of uncertainty, which is what his theory is.

Barry Conrad:
Can I ask you, so I know things are a little bit different over there, but define because it's kind of a slippery slope to say, processed food, because a lot of food, even if it is healthy, is in some way, I don't know, handled or processed.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, so what is the gauge for that? Because you can't really get a pure straight out of the soil, you know, something to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, there is the whole Nova classification, do you know about that?

Barry Conrad:
No, tell me, because I feel like people do the best they can do in terms of what they know. So they might go, I'll avoid the Doritos isle. I'll go to the veggies section. But even some of those veggies are sprayed with things or handled before they get to the grocery store.

Barry Conrad:
But people thinking they're doing the right thing. So do you know what I'm saying? I do. It's not completely pure, but it's the best of what you can get, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
So I'll give you the technical legal answer, and then my thoughts. So the Nova classification system, it came out in 2018. And they basically put food into four groups. So group one was unprocessed or minimally processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's basically what we think of with unprocessed. So fresh, dry or frozen vegetables or fruit, grains, legumes, meat, fish, eggs, nuts, seeds, so like food in its real form. You can remove unedible parts like the skin or something, but it's like you're not actually changing the food.

Melanie Avalon:
And there's group two, which is processed culinary ingredients. So that's plant oils, animal fats, sugar, honey, salt. You're basically refining, grinding, milling or drying. Then there's group three, which is processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's with the canned pickled vegetables, meat, fish, fruit, bread, cheese. You're basically taking the group one, so like the real foods, and then you're adding in group two, which is the processed foods.

Melanie Avalon:
So like adding sugar in the process or in the pickling process, the smoking process, the curing process. And there's group four, which is ultra processed foods. And that's the worst. And it's basically a series of, it's where you're extracting, you're chemically modifying.

Melanie Avalon:
It's what we think of with like fast food and all the things. So it's things like packaged snacks, reconstituted meat, prepackaged frozen dishes, all the things. And what was exciting about this was that it actually gave definitions to this idea of processing, and then they were able to track how it affected health, if it was like which group it was in.

Melanie Avalon:
That's like a technical answer for more like my thoughts. I really feel like it's kind of more common knowledge. Like is this food that you're eating a food in its real form that we would have eaten hundreds of years ago?

Melanie Avalon:
Because what was your question about people being confused about it?

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, so I mean, I'm projecting, but maybe the average person going to the grocery store might go, okay, this is day one of me being healthy. My first thought is just avoiding the Cheetos and chocolate candy aisle.

Barry Conrad:
And then we just go to like where I can see vegetables maybe, and maybe I'll grab some of that. And then maybe I'll grab maybe a package of ground beef, and then maybe I'll grab a pack like some potatoes and some rice.

Barry Conrad:
But even those things that seem healthy, maybe are treated before they get to the grocery store in some way. Yeah, but that's the best I know.

Melanie Avalon:
here's my suggestion. So and yes, and I think any step you take, especially if you've lived in the, the current world of food and processed foods, like any step towards not that is amazing. So thumbs up.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some, I think there's some good tenants people can follow to break out of that, which is one at the grocery store, if you shop around the perimeter, because most of the fresh stuff, so like the meat, the fruit, the veggies, they aren't in the center aisles.

Melanie Avalon:
They're in the perimeter. So don't go into the aisles unless required. You might go into the aisles for if you want some like olive oil or coconut oil or spices, but in general shopping around the perimeter.

Melanie Avalon:
And then honestly food shouldn't need an ingredient list. Like it shouldn't have a label. Like it should just be the food and even things that do have labels. So like talking about the spices, if you go look at the spices, like turmeric and ginger, like it should just be turmeric and ginger.

Melanie Avalon:
There shouldn't be like all this other crazy stuff added. I think having that paradigm can really help with making choices, but I do think it's like it's a stepping stone and it requires a lot of education because like you just said, it's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Like you can buy something and you think it's not processed and like the original, but it has all this stuff added. That happens a lot with especially with like seafood and happens a lot with like seafood and things.

Melanie Avalon:
We're like chicken even. Like a rotisserie chicken. Like okay, like I'm being good. I'm buying a rotisserie chicken. Like it's chicken. But then you look at the ingredients and it has like corn syrup and sugars and flavors and sweeteners and it's like what?

Melanie Avalon:
That's not like just chicken. So I just think education is the key and having eyes wide open. But anybody can look at an ingredient label.

Barry Conrad:
But then can I ask you again, coming back to the example of, for example, like if when I buy, you know, if I'm feeling like I deserve this treat, I want this treat, and I'm buying chocolate, and maybe a bag of chips, and I'll have that maybe one day a week, but then, you know, I'm still pretty, I'm fine still, obviously, the next day, I know, based on experience, like the next day, I'll probably feel a bit bloated or feel a bit,

Barry Conrad:
there's waterway because of that extra salt and stuff like that, it's fine. I don't freak out. But to the average person, they might think, Oh, my gosh, I've gained all this fat, it's not possible to gain a pound or a kg of fat overnight.

Barry Conrad:
But people freak out because they get on the scale the next morning and go, I'm fat now, or I've gained weight. It's like, well, you got to understand how food works, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, there's so many thoughts there. One is yes, you can't so if you have like one meal or snack or treat off and the next day you gained X amount of pounds like you didn't

Barry Conrad:
I call it trinkets, trinkets.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, that's like an Australian world, a trinket.

Barry Conrad:
That's actually not, it's a mini thing. People are like, Trinkets, what the heck?

Melanie Avalon:
Is it not Australian? No. Trinket. If you have a trinket.

Barry Conrad:
I call tricas like chocolate chips things like all the kind of like, you know, things that I wouldn't normally have if I'm trying to prepare for like a shoe or something, you know, you know, I'm talking about like, what does that think the ferry?

Barry Conrad:
What is the thing you like the

Melanie Avalon:
Like a snack? Like a treat. A treat. What's that cake that you like? Confetti.

Barry Conrad:
Yes, that's what a trinket is to me. That's a trinket.

Melanie Avalon:
Funfetti. Funfetti is not trinket, it's an experience that we'll never come back from.

Barry Conrad:
You need to introduce me to it and you can watch me have it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I'm down. Yep. Yes, yes. And the gluten free one that tastes basically the same. I think it's really important for people to understand their mindset and the relationship with all of this, because some people can have the trinkets and like feel great and, or have the trinkets and maybe not feel great, but it doesn't create a downward spiral because I think that's the problem with a lot of people.

Melanie Avalon:
And either way, say you're doing like really great and you're like fasting and doing all the things and you have like a cheat meal or whatever, everything is okay. That's my message. Like everything is okay.

Melanie Avalon:
And I just don't want people to get into the mindset of everything is ruined and falling off the wagon because that just leads to more like falling off the wagon. And some people, I think you need to know yourself.

Melanie Avalon:
Some people are good having trinkets occasionally. And some people like for me, it's like just not a good thing. So I'd rather not go there. Some people can have them. And either way, like you said, like one, you know, moment is not the ruin of everything.

Melanie Avalon:
I think people just need to know themselves. And I, and last thing, I think they need to have experience what it feels like to eat all natural, whole, real foods. And then they can actually tell the difference of what the different things feel like.

Barry Conrad:
It's just more satiating and speaking like that's funny that you mentioned your mom like my mom Reese as a light has Been talking so much more about oh, wow, like, you know I've been having more protein in my diet.

Barry Conrad:
This is like just changing the way I feel like I feel more full I'm like, I know And so it's the same sort of like aha moment like she's never really Maybe just known about that, you know, like the benefits of that so Knowledge is it's important for people to know that protein is so foundational Like as we age our muscle decreases like I want to say a percentage Every what is every year every decade you tell me about it.

Barry Conrad:
It's a lot. Yeah, so After a certain age so like it's important to be having a lot of protein, you know That's the foundation and then I don't think it's a deal breaker whether it's fat or carbs, but it depends on how you feel Everyone will be different.

Barry Conrad:
So some people can do more fat somebody could do more carbs, but It's just such a game changer and you feel more full if you're just having carbs all the time You're gonna crave everything you're gonna eat all day.

Barry Conrad:
I promise you

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. There's so much magic to when you focus on protein for satiation, hunger, and then like you were saying body composition, all the things, and you can have all of it in a short amount of time and build muscle.

Barry Conrad:
despite what people may believe.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. I know. Oh my goodness. So many things. Well, this was amazing. We didn't even talk about wine.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, well, give me like a real quick succinct elevator pitch about wine, because I've heard Melanie in my in my life, people have been coming out saying, I've read these new studies saying alcohol is all bad now, like even two glasses a week is really bad.

Barry Conrad:
So what's your take on that? Red carpet answer, you have to answer it really quickly.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh, so many things. Well, I did recently have an article published about this in Fox.

Barry Conrad:
I saw that. Congratulations.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Thank you. My thoughts are that the if we look at the studies, the curve is consistently a J shaped curve. So people who drink moderately, minimally to moderately seem to have the best health effects compared to people who don't drink at all or people who drink to excess.

Melanie Avalon:
And if we look at populations like the longest lived studies ever, the longest lived populations, they're all drinking wine. I think there are a lot of health benefits to wine when it comes to the polyphenols and all of that when it comes to drinking.

Melanie Avalon:
So the studies that keep coming out about it saying that it's, you know, horrible and no drinking is better than drinking at all, I just I feel like we look at reality. That's not what we see when we look at people drinking and we look at the mechanisms of what certain things in alcohol might be doing.

Melanie Avalon:
Honestly, I think people should do like you need to know yourself. So you need to know how what works for you in your life. It's kind of like the things with the the processed foods and all the things like are you a moderationist?

Melanie Avalon:
Are you extremist? Like who are you? So knowing yourself. And then I think the the type of drink that you're drinking is super important. So I've talked about this a lot. But I think one of the main problems with all these studies is that they're lumping together all alcohol into one category and they're not accounting for what type of alcohol, especially with wine.

Melanie Avalon:
This is why I talk about dry brown wines all the time. There's a big difference between conventional wine, which can be high, high sugar, high alcohol, high pesticides, high toxins. That's way different from having dry farmed, lower alcohol, low sugar wine from Europe.

Melanie Avalon:
That's why I only drink that type of wine. And you will feel massively different if you drink that type of wine compared to conventional wine, which can actually have up to I think over 70 additives are approved for wine in the US, which is crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Fun fact, if you're drinking wine at a bar or something like cheap wine and your teeth turn purple, I used to think that that was the wine turning my teeth purple. It's not the wine. It's because there's a dye in the US called mega purple.

Melanie Avalon:
And they put it in the wine. And it's like a purple dye. That's the type of stuff. Yeah. Because I think that was like wine. Like, oh, I can't drink wine because it'll turn my teeth red. No, you can drink wine.

Melanie Avalon:
Just don't drink conventional wine that's mega purple added.

Barry Conrad:
But why they're adding, I don't understand why you would add die to one.

Melanie Avalon:
Consistency, because so much of the wine in the US, it's all owned by a few key wine producers that own everybody. And they want to mass produce wine and make it all the same. And they do that through dyes and additives, so then they can just turn it out like a factory.

Barry Conrad:
A quick fire answer from you like white and red wine, if someone prefers white wine, is that still beneficial in some way or not at all? Because a lot of studies come out like red wine is like great.

Barry Conrad:
So the layperson, give them like a little something.

Melanie Avalon:
No, that's a good question. I do think a lot of the health benefits from wine come from the polyphenols that are in red wine. And they're higher in red wine because when you make wine, the reason wine is red or white is because whether or not it's macerated and exposed to the skins and the fermentation process.

Melanie Avalon:
And so you get a lot more of that in red wine compared to white wine. There's been a lot of studies looking at red versus white wine. I do think... So I think this is just my opinion, but I do think that minimal to moderate drinking probably has health benefits for a myriad of reasons.

Melanie Avalon:
I think we'll get way more health benefits from red wine. That said, I am an advocate, like I said, of dry farmed wine. By the way, speaking of quick tangent, if you'd like to get the wines that I drink every single night that actually check for this.

Melanie Avalon:
So they check that it's low alcohol, low sugar, organic, free of pesticides, free of mold. They don't even sell or give US wines because they don't meet their standards. It's called dry farmed wines.

Melanie Avalon:
You can go to dryfarmedwines.com slash Melanie Avalon and get a bottle for a penny. That's why I drink every single night. I love them. It's amazing. They have white and red. But back to your question, I do think there are more health benefits to red wine.

Melanie Avalon:
I also think in a healthy lifestyle, if white wine is your wine of choice and you're drinking the wines that I talked about, that you can probably get health benefits from it. I know it's like super controversial.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wait, one more thing. I'm interviewing next week, the creators of The Mind Diet, which is kind of like the official diet for Alzheimer's.

Barry Conrad:
Oh, wow.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so they've done a lot of research and they've been around for quite a while and it's like the diet like they've done that they've done the most scientific research on the best diet for Alzheimer's and they include in their diet because

Barry Conrad:
Where in Panama is like, I'll have like a Pinot Noir and like a Tempranillo, but I'll also do at the moment drink a lot of Pinot Grigio. A lot Pinot Grigio. And it doesn't seem to have seemingly any effect on my body.

Barry Conrad:
I don't understand that though.

Melanie Avalon:
I just think there's this whole misconception, all of alcohol is lumped together in one thing, and it's not taking into account the type, like wine specifically, and the types of wine. But I do think there's a lot of fear mongering around alcohol.

Melanie Avalon:
And I understand why completely, 100%. But yeah, I do feel strongly that you can definitely have, you know, alcohol in your diet and have the health benefits.

Barry Conrad:
I think what you're saying, it's about knowing yourself. It's really important to know what you respond to, well or not.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, completely. And that's kind of what it is with honestly, with everything, like we're talking about in the beginning, the fasting, the eating, all the things.

Barry Conrad:
Even with fasting, I always I tell people like, oh, this is what I do. But, you know, like, I know it's not for everyone. It's just you got to do what's best for you because you immediately just want to derail that whole thing.

Barry Conrad:
Well, you're trying to make me do what you do. I'm like, no, I'm just saying this works for me, but you should do what works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly, I cannot read more like find what works for you and my goal with these shows just share what I'm learning until people can make your own decisions and find what works for them what.

Barry Conrad:
What's the Alzheimer, the diet? That's wild. There's a diet for that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm so excited to interview them. Like I said, they have the most scientific studies on diet for preventing cognitive decline.

Barry Conrad:
I think I've mostly read one.

Melanie Avalon:
I drink mostly red. I drink both though. Okay, so they do five ounces of dry red wine. I'll do any varietal. It just needs to be what I said, like dry, low alcohol, low sugar, organic, all the things.

Barry Conrad:
Okay, what can't tell me what low alcohol means for you per bottle? Like is it 12% is it 11% is it like a 8%?

Melanie Avalon:
Dry Farm wines, all of Dry Farm wines is 12.5% or less. And you can get on their extra low ABV subscription, which I love. And that's what I am on. Oh, by the way, join Dry Farm wines now. When you sign up, it's random, like you click what you want, and they send random varietals.

Melanie Avalon:
So you can do that to start. You can also email them and you can tell them exactly what you like, and they'll help cultivate exactly what you want. And you can request extra low alcohol wines. So all of their extra low alcohol are 11.5% or less.

Melanie Avalon:
But yeah, 12.5% or less is what they consider low alcohol. When I'm at restaurants, because it's hard to find that, when I'm at restaurants, I try to go for 13% or less, max 13.5%, but not above that.

Barry Conrad:
Do you know what's interesting over here in Australia? Like our, our baseline over here is 12% per bottle, but it's a 750 mils bottle.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, that doesn't matter because it's like it's the percent of the alcohol. But oh, wow, I should come to Australia. I should come to Australia. You can come to Atlanta.

Barry Conrad:
Please come here because we need you, we don't have anything like you here.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. When you come here, I'll stock you up. I'll give you all the things and you can take them back.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, they need to ship to Australia. I wonder why they don't ship internationally. Maybe it's something to do with cost.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't know. But dryfromwines.com slash Melanie Avalon, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon, it will get you a free bottle for a penny. I love it. So yeah. Oh, wait, one last question about that.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you normally... So I always break my fast with wine. Do you normally have wine to break your fast or with your food? Like when do you have wine or wine alcohol?

Barry Conrad:
I would actually like to ask you this question, because I've been listening to, I'm not going to say who, but just certain podcasts and stuff, and they all say, particularly if you're training and things like that, resistance training for context, that you should, your first quote unquote meal should be a certain amount of grams of protein.

Barry Conrad:
But at times, like I'll often crack open a bottle of wine while I cook my first meal. So is there a difference in terms of the protein hitting your system if you have the wine first, or the protein first after a fasted steak?

Barry Conrad:
Because I do both. Sometimes I just do the protein first, sometimes the wine first, or whiskey.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you know that the body prioritizes breaking down alcohol before anything else so if you have wine in your system your body is gonna be like focused on that but the food is still there the protein still there so you are going to break it down eventually and i actually don't like drinking wine or alcohol with meals for this reason because i feel like it slows down.

Melanie Avalon:
It like slows down processing carbs and protein and fat so that's why i actually like going out drinking and then coming back and eating but that's just me.

Barry Conrad:
Is there a time limit then? For example, let me give you a scenario. If you're going out tonight and you're going out and having a drink, is there a certain amount of time that you go, I know if I wait this long, this will be optimum for me to eat at this other time to break down the protein.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it depends on a lot of things. It depends on what you drink. It depends on some people are faster, alcohol, metabolizers. It's like caffeine. So some people process it faster than others. Like for me, apparently I process alcohol really good.

Melanie Avalon:
Caffeine, not so much. So I think it's really individual. I don't have a blanket answer. I honestly don't know the answer. I don't know that there's enough studies on that. I just know for me... That'd be an interesting study though, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, it would be. Yeah. That's like my type of study. Like if I had like unlimited funds and I could do a study, I would do something like that for sure.

Barry Conrad:
Because I often do that, like I'll open it with a glass of wine or whiskey or a whiskey sour while I'm cooking my protein-heavy meal.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. And for me, like, I feel like it puts you into a, because we know for eating, you need to be in the parasympathetic, like, relaxed, digested and rest state.

Barry Conrad:
What does that mean, Melanie, for the layperson, if they hear what his person thinks?

Melanie Avalon:
like your nervous system has two main forms that can be in, which is the sympathetic. So that's like fight or flight, like, like adrenaline doing things. And then there's the parasympathetic, which is the like resting and digesting.

Melanie Avalon:
And so you oscillate between the two on different spectrum levels. And so I find for me that having a glass of wine with a meal helps ease you into that. I find it helps with digestion.

Barry Conrad:
It's so interesting, because a lot of people just eat or drink how they want, but it's just interesting how different things affect different results. It's crazy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, takeaways from this episode. Okay, here are my takeaways. Let me know if you would add something. Find what works for you. Protein is really important. And also, it's okay if you eat it all at once in a massive meal.

Melanie Avalon:
You can still maintain or even gain muscle. Process foods. Try not to eat them. Try to eat the most natural form that you can. Do what works for you and don't be upset by other people judging you on your dietary choices.

Melanie Avalon:
Anything else?

Barry Conrad:
And I would say as well, it's really picky, but more like I would say ultra processed food. Because I feel like a lot of food, even if they're healthy, they can be kind of processed. Don't worry about that.

Barry Conrad:
But I feel like the ultra processed stuff, just avoid like what Melanie said before, avoid the center aisles in the grocery store. You know, like you'll be you'll be fine. You don't need cereal in your life.

Barry Conrad:
It's okay. You don't need it.

Melanie Avalon:
Live your life, eat real foods, look at labels.

Barry Conrad:
So do you, you know, if that's where you're at, like you got to be conscious for a patient because we're taught a certain thing and everyone learns or moves forward in different ways.

Melanie Avalon:
Not only are we taught it, but we've grown up in a culture that has been scientifically engineered to make us crave it and want it more. So be kind to yourself. The deck is stacked against you and you can see the light and then make choices and go at your own pace.

Barry Conrad:
And I will definitely say this, it sounds like such a cliche thing to say, but food is so important. People like what we put in our bodies really does matter. It'll balance for longevity, for our present, for our future.

Barry Conrad:
Like it's, it's everything. Like just be mindful. You know, there are other choices that can taste equally amazing. That don't have to be what you've always known before.

Melanie Avalon:
like you will enjoy it at these dinners. I really do enjoy what I'm eating, even if I don't eat dessert, Barry.

Barry Conrad:
But I will have that cake. What is it?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm having a holding you to it when is this is so fun you have to come back in the future and update us.

Barry Conrad:
And in person, we'll have to do an IRL episode. I mentioned that.

Melanie Avalon:
I've actually, I've only done one in-person interview ever.

Barry Conrad:
Okay, Melanie, when I come over there, we have to do it like when I come over there, it's a winner than if we have to do an IRL because I'll be there.

Melanie Avalon:
Do we have to, Flo?

Barry Conrad:
We have to and you know what though part of the episode was the cake will be there and I will do it.

Melanie Avalon:
Like in person? Of course. Can we just like do that and then we'll talk about it later?

Barry Conrad:
Why don't you go like, why don't you like video? Like, what does your deal with that? Cause you're an actress.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. I don't like seeing myself. Oh, I guess. I like audio. Can't we just like also do the interview later because.

Barry Conrad:
Yeah, we can. We don't have to do it.

Melanie Avalon:
If we're like doing an interview while having the experience, I feel like that's like too much taken and like I'm a control freak and like trying, you know, we should like have the experience and then we'll do an interview.

Barry Conrad:
have the experience and then we can debrief. Yeah, that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Friends, listeners, these show notes will be at ifpodcast.com. So you can read a full transcript there as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
You can follow us on Instagram at ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon Berry. Are you Berry Conrad on Instagram?

Barry Conrad:
berry underscore conrad

Melanie Avalon:
Barry Underscore, Conrad.

Barry Conrad:
But if you just type in Barry, you'll actually find me and we'll just come up.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah, just Barry. And he's like the first one that pops up. So definitely follow him as well. And this has been so amazing. Thank you for this conversation. And hopefully we can talk again in the future.

Barry Conrad:
Thank you so much for having me and I hope you all enjoy it.

Melanie Avalon:
All right. Have a good day in Australia. It's like midnight here. It's like what, noon?

Barry Conrad:
Thanks for making the time. It's like 2.17 here. PM in the afternoon. It's crazy. Have a good day. Have a good night.

Melanie Avalon:
Good time, mate. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 396 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Listener Q&A: Nicole - Hi ladies! I have a question regarding facial flushing during fasting.

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Listener Q&A: Lisa - Inflammation & Joovv

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #224 - Forrest Smith (Kineon Labs)

Listener Q&A: Jodi - I appreciate your input on how to start with such a crazy life with work and kids.

Listener Q&A: Nicole - What are your biggest regrets?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 396 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 396 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. Vanessa, can I ask you some questions? Sure. You drink coffee, right? Yes. I'm curious, in your coffee drinking habits, what is most important to you for the coffee? Is it the flavor, the health benefits, the antioxidants, the mold content?

Vanessa Spina:
I would say flavor and low mold content. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
That's what you.

Vanessa Spina:
Cause we, yeah, we have an espresso machine, so like we grind everything fresh. I keep everything sealed. I have a vacuum sealer that I use specifically for my coffee beans. So when I open it and fill the hopper, then I can reseal the bag and there's zero air in there and it keeps them super fresh. So I think that and the, we grind it on the spot and the flavor is really important. So I usually get, is it a hundred percent Arabica? I usually try to get that and yeah, and low mold content, I think is the most important thing for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm having an epiphany. Is that little hole on the bag of coffee beans so that you can vacuum seal it back?

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe, maybe there's some machines that work like that. I have like a vacuum sealer that I just take bags and I make my own seal and then I fill it with whatever and then I vacuum seal it after. I got it first when I was doing carnivore because, you know, we would get like these huge stakes divided up and then I would put it in there and seal each one individually or sometimes I would make like smoked brisket or something and then just seal it in there and it lasts forever and the fridge so you don't have to freeze it but then if you vacuum seal it and freeze it then it lasts like literally forever so yeah I got it then but now I use it to keep everything fresh and it's amazing for coffee beans so yeah those are I mean I think extra nutrients would be probably bonus.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay i'm pulling people in my coffee development adventures i had a vacuum sealer i was. Worried about the plastic like ceiling things in plastic but then i realized. Like when i order these frozen things are already in plastic just no easy answer with plastics why can i see a link glass.

Vanessa Spina:
Develop that. Yeah, something is coming, I'm sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so how are things in your world? Thank you for the the input. I'm as I gather data

Vanessa Spina:
course. Yeah, things are amazing. I was just at the playground a few hours ago with Luca and I was doing this tandem zip line with him. I posted a video of it on my Instagram, but it's this new thing that we've been doing. There's a zip line at his playground. They have them at a lot of the playgrounds here and he usually goes by himself. And then one day I saw this other mom doing it and I was like, wow, that's crazy. She's doing the zip line with her we tried it and it was so much fun. So I get on it on the zip line and then he gets on on top of me and then we launch off together and we like stare into each other's eyes like screaming. So funny.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Is it on? I love Ziplines or I love them when I was little. Is it on like a hill or anything? Or is it over a height?

Vanessa Spina:
a little bit. It's on a slope and it's just, you know, like it's like a big tire. It's got like a bunch of tires that like break it and stuff. It's pretty well made. Yeah, it's just so much fun. So we were doing that this morning. My husband came down with my mother-in-law while we were doing him and they were laughing and they took a video of us doing it. So I put it on my Instagram. Yeah, it's just a typical day for me now. It's like a zip lining in the morning and then working in the afternoon and evening. I just feel really blessed that I have the energy to keep up with my boys because they're very energetic and do fun things like that with them. It's awesome. How are things with you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm watching your video right now. Oh my goodness. That looks so fun. Oh, this is so fun. Oh, and it looks so European

Vanessa Spina:
the backdrop of the architecture.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks because we used to always go to Germany growing up and we'd do stuff like that and we do like there were so many seesaws in Europe and my sister and brother and I would just have a blast. Like you'd have to like load up the tire on one side with rocks.

Vanessa Spina:
It's so much fun!

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I think those don't fly today in the U.S.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was going to say I was talking to actually, yeah, Dr. Grant Tinsley last week about it because he has kids. And I was like, yeah, we were doing the zipline this morning because it's also ziplining that morning. And he was like, huh? And I was like, oh, you probably don't have those at your playgrounds. There's a lot more risky things here, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember even when I was in elementary school at the playground, part of the playground was off limits and this was when I was like a little kid, so it's probably all off limits now. Good times, good times. I remember I had a friend that had a zip, she had like a massive, I don't even remember who it was. I just remember going there and that their backyard, they had a massive sloped backyard and they had a massive zip line. They went from the top to the bottom like long, fast and I was like, this is like having a roller coaster in your backyard. This is cool. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So that is awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. What's new with you? I don't know. I had a really good interview yesterday. Do you know Dr. Jack Wolfson, the paleocardiologist? No. He's yeah, the paleocardiologist, but it was a really fun conversation because he's literally the thing I'm probably most haunted by. Let me think if that's true. The main things I'm most haunted by in a diet, nutrition wars and opinions are protein intake and longevity, ironically enough because we talk about protein all the time, and lowering Apobee and LDL artificially with statins for longevity as advocated by Peter Atiyah. And so it was a deep, it was funny because it was a deep dive into like cholesterol and LDL and Apobee and he's very anti-statins and he's also very anti-Peter Atiyah, even though he's never listened to any of Peter Atiyah stuff, which so literally half the episode was me like defending Peter Atiyah to him. And I was like, I don't know that this is a productive conversation, but Oh man, so yeah, I find it interesting when people comment on other people's work when they haven't read their work, you know, so where do you fall on the, on that topic?

Vanessa Spina:
The first one, I mean, I have been bringing it up lately on the podcast and how I kind of had it all wrong. And I really thought that, you know, you had to sort of try to balance out all the mTOR, but I learned from Dr. Kurt Escobar, it's really dysregulated mTOR that we want to avoid and not the mTOR from eating protein and doing resistance training. Like that's not the mTOR that has negative impact on longevity. It actually is the opposite. And how there's these relationships that are so complex, like how mTOR even initiates autophagy and everyone thinks it's only AMPK, you know? So I kind of had it all wrong and I feel really excited and empowered to have learned that because I no longer feel like I have to somehow balance out all this mTOR that I'm doing right now because I personally am so focused right now on building as much muscle mass as I can in the years that I can build muscle mass because you get to a point where you're basically just maintaining. And I'm so excited being in this stage of my life. Like I'm lifting heavier and heavier weights, like I'm pushing harder in my workouts, like I'm experimenting with, I mentioned adding in that other protein meal. So I'm now doing three protein meals a day. I'm getting some great results from it. I'm just all about experimentation. So I'm trying this out and I'm going to assess at the end how I'm feeling with it. But I really, really like it. And I just feel like that used to haunt me and now it doesn't, you know? And for years, I was just so focused on like fasting and AMPK and, you know, this is what we need for autophagy. And yet there's so much autophagy that you get from exercise. And you can see it in people. I mean, when they look at the mitochondria of people who are lifelong exercisers, their mitochondria, they retain way more of their mitochondria, much, much, much, much more. And the capacity of those mitochondria is also maintained way more. And you see it in people who work out that they look younger. And I think it comes from metabolic health. And, you know, I was afraid that too much protein and resistant training would age me earlier. What's the word for it? Premature aging, but it's actually the opposite. And I think that's really, yeah, it's something that you saw at me and no longer does. Like I now have a different view of it. And I think there's just a lot of confusion out there on that topic.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever measured or do you measure your IGF-1? I have.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I have before I haven't I haven't done a lot of testing lately just because I'm everything with pregnancy throws things off So hmm. Yeah, that's so true sort of waiting until I'm back to baseline back to a baseline

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that makes sense. I've only done it like a few times, measured that, but I feel like whenever I did it was really high. But then it's like I'm measuring it, you know, I don't know, probably at a time when it would be high.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I think that there are going to be tests coming out in the very near future that are going to help us assess our biological age based on mitochondrial function and the quality and function of our mitochondria that are going to be really, really insightful because you're going to be able to actually tell if things that you're doing are working for you, like if supplements that you're taking are making a difference. And I know, yeah, we've sort of been circling around this topic for a while, but I'm really excited for those things that'll help measure and quantify these things more.

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much. Do you have thoughts on the, like the super low LDL APOB and statins and stuff?

Vanessa Spina:
know, I mean, what is your current opinion on on

Melanie Avalon:
Well, basically the summary is low fat vegan people will say that, you know, you want super low LDL and I need to clarify that LDL is there's like LDL C, which is like all the different LDLs, when there's LDL P, which is Apo B, which is the particularly part that can create CBD issues. But in any case, there's that camp, then there's like the low carb higher fat camp where they're like, oh, LDL can be it's totally fine. If it's really high, as long as you don't have inflammation and you have high HDL, then there's people in between like Peter who says, who's also is pro, you know, a diet that's, I mean, not vegan, like, that's more similar to a diet that I would probably follow. He thinks, I don't know if this is the exact quote, but he thinks for the ultimate longevity, I think your Apo B would need to be below like 30, which is only achievable with pharmaceuticals. So like he's on statins for longevity. And he has a history, I think.

Vanessa Spina:
My opinion, because there is also in the keto space a lot of talk and rhetoric around lean mass hyper responders and that kind of thing, I don't think it's a good thing to have really high cholesterol, even if people are doing keto. So I think if people are running into issues where they have really high cholesterol, I think it could be dangerous even if someone is doing keto. But I prefer to cut back on fat at that point and switch out fats for healthier ones. And I say healthier with trepidation because I don't mean to not eat any saturated fat, but to me that's like, you know, if someone is doing carnivore or something and they're eating a lot of saturated fat and they're adding a lot of butter to things and, you know, just adding a lot of fat to their diet, you know, just sticking to eating the whole foods in their whole food form, like whole eggs, steak, you know, maybe having some leaner cuts of steak, but not adding butter to the steak kind of thing, not adding extra fat to things and even switching out some fats for I think like olive oil. I tend to use mostly in my cooking coconut oil, but I don't use a lot of it. Like I use a spray. I don't like, you know, coat everything in oil, even though I eat low carbs. So I do think that, you know, just like you don't want to have really high circulating blood sugar, I think you don't want to have really high triglycerides or really high cholesterol. But I personally wouldn't go on something like statins for that. I would just try to do it naturally.

Melanie Avalon:
We're pretty similar there with those thoughts. I do find it really interesting. I like interviewing because a lot of the vegan people will say that you can't eat animal protein and have, you know, low cholesterol levels and mine's really low. So I always like interviewing them and being like, I eat pounds. Same. Yeah. I'm like, I eat pounds and pounds of protein and, you know, I have really low levels. So that's not quite accurate.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you tell Gregor that?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm pretty sure I did in my lost episode. Oh, did you ever re-record it? No, we're recording in October again. Okay, awesome. It was nice to have like a breather in between because it's hard to like redo it like right away, you know.

Vanessa Spina:
I would be, yeah, I would want to either do it right away, like the next day or have a breather.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Well, like the next week would be pretty rough. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Like, yeah, do it like now.

Vanessa Spina:
I feel that way like sometimes and like I'll have I had a guest once that I had been preparing for their interview for weeks you know reading their book really detailed notes and I was so ready on that day and something came up it was definitely something important having to do with their families they couldn't record that day and I was like yeah we need to do this like either tomorrow or in two months because I can't like come back on this.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. I'm about to interview. Finally, Dr. Sarah Gottfried. I think we've rescheduled.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love her like multiple times. She bought my keto program. Like when I was first like starting in the keto space, she has my book too. And she showed it to me when I was interviewing her and I almost started crying. She's just so wonderful, not because she bought my stuff. She's just a wonderful human. And yeah, I'm excited for you to interview her.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really excited because I ran into her at the biohacking conference and she knew who I was. I have interviewed her, but it was years and years ago, so I didn't think she would remember me.

Vanessa Spina:
That's really cool.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I remember I had that moment with the book. It's because I sent it to him, but when I interviewed Rob the first time he had my book on his desk, I literally wanted to like cry.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it means a lot to you as an author.

Melanie Avalon:
It really does. So, okay. Shall we jump into some things for today? Yes, I would love to. All right. Would you like to read the first question from Nicole?

Vanessa Spina:
So our first question comes to us from Nicole, and the subject is flushing. Hi, ladies. I have a question regarding facial flushing during fasting. I'm a long time faster. In the beginning, I did get facial flushing at the end of my fast. I didn't experience it for a while, but it just started up again. I fast about 16 plus hours, usually opening my window around 230. Every day between 12 and two, I get really flushed, and my face and neck get really red. These are not hormonal flashes, as I have experienced those, and they feel totally different. They gradually disappear after a bit. I'm not dehydrated. I haven't changed anything I eat, and I clean fast. These flushes happen way after I've had coffee. I don't take any medication for hours before. Sometimes they are accompanied by a tension headache. I opened my eating window earlier one day and no flush, but to be honest, I hate not fasting. I plan to keep on doing it. Any insight on why this happens? Some info. I'm 45, lower carb, definitely not keto. Recently, a month ago, was on herbals for an infection. The flushes seem to start after that. I would love your thoughts. There are two emojis of someone really hot. They're flushing. Super cute.

Melanie Avalon:
It's the anger emoji and then like the hot emoji. We love emojis, all the emojis all the time. Well, thank you so much, Nicole, for your question. So there are a lot of things that could be going on here. I mean, it could be things like blood sugar or your adrenals. My thought though, the first thing that came to me, and then especially the fact that you were recently on herbals for an infection and that's when it started. It could be a histamine situation, especially since it's something you've experienced in the past. So basically, his histamine is a chemical in our body. It's released during inflammatory responses, during stress. It's high in a lot of foods, it can be released from the gut microbiome. And some people are just like their histamine bucket gets filled up and they get histamine sensitive and they get symptoms from it, like flushing, honestly, like flushing allergy type symptoms. And so the fact that you've had flushing in the past and then didn't, and then it came again after an infection with herbals, I would bet that you're probably sensitive to histamine and changes in your environment, both externally and or inside of your body are creating periods of your life where it's becoming a thing. And the reason I would guess that it goes away when you eat is because your body's inflammatory response immune system, like the majority of our immune system is in our gut. So once you start eating, it's kind of like switching focus a little bit to your food. If you had some sort of change in your gut bacteria during that infection and with herbals, which is highly likely, it could have created a different balance of histamine producing bacteria in your gut that are producing histamine. The effects of it are appearing during your fast. I mean, a way you could figure out if it's histamine, there are a few things you could do. So I actually interviewed Dr. Becky Campbell on my show for, she has like a histamine diet book. So I'll put a link to that in the show notes. You could try, there's a few things you could try. If you wanted to just see if that's literally the reason, I'm not saying to take allergy meds ongoing, but you could take one for a day and see if it, if the flashes don't happen, the flushing, if the flushing doesn't happen, then it's probably histamine because the histamine would be blocking it. So for example, I mean, you could take a Benadryl that would probably knock you out. You could take like a Claritin or a Zyrtec for a day and see what happens. You could also ongoing try a low histamine diet for a bit and kind of clear out some of that histamine from your system that could have a really, really beneficial effect. And also just working on your gut microbiome health in general could be really helpful. So through your food choices, I don't know if you talk about what you eat, but favoring, you know, a whole foods diet. Oh, you said you're low carb, but definitely not keto. Yep. You know, favoring a whole foods diet, a probiotic I really, really love is seed. I'm obsessed with them. They have a lot of science behind their probiotic strains and I've noticed a lot of great effects on my digestion. And there are certain strains that are histamine producing versus not. And I haven't noticed any issues with seed. So if you go to seed.com/Ifpodcast you can use the coupon code to five I have podcasts to get 25% off, but yes, I look at, I really would bet that this is a histamine thing going on. Do you have thoughts? Vanessa? I think you.

Vanessa Spina:
covered that wonderfully, definitely had the same thought. It could be related to the herbs, especially if that's when it started. And that would be the simplest explanation. So it sounds like it could be something that, you know, your body could still be working through, but I wonder if you could talk to that provider who had you on that and see if there's something going on, or if they might have some insight into that, the practitioner who had you on these herbals.

Melanie Avalon:
What's also really interesting is it sounds like she's thinking it was the herbals, but it also could have been the infection. Like, cause that would have all been at the same time. So, you know, it could have been the infection that caused this change. I really would bet something happened though, with your gut microbiome that is having residual effects from here. And like I said, the fact that you've had this in the past before says to me that you're probably just sensitive to histamine changes again, it might not be histamine, but that's what I put my, my, my money on and oh, a resource. You can get my app food sense guide. It's a comprehensive catalog of over 300 foods for 11 different compounds in food that people often react to and have, you know, reactions to. So things like FODMAPs and lectins and gluten oxalates, it includes histamine. So definitely download that. There's a free trial it's at MelanieAvalon.com/foodsenseguide. Oh, and I think it's like free ongoing. It's just, if you subscribe, you get more features. So yeah, download that, look at the histamine foods, see what you're eating. I would definitely try a low histamine diet. Okey dokey. Shall we go on to our next question? Yeah, sounds great. So our next question comes from Heather. She says, I'm trying to get back to fasting, but I do a CrossFit type gym at 6 AM. That's so early. She said, I tried not to eat before once and I got dizzy after. Do you have any tips?

Vanessa Spina:
I'll be not going to like my tip but my tip would be to eat before you go because I tried and this is something I'll be doing this fall again now that is the fall but when we go on holiday to Greece I tend to do a different kind of fasting I call it circadian rhythm fasting and I have breakfast quite early I usually around seven and then I fast until dinner and I love it and it works really well and so I just want to provide a reminder that there's lots of different ways to fast and I was getting great results I was getting more deeply into ketosis when I was doing that I'm interested to test again this time because that happened the last few times and I could feel it as well as I was testing but really interestingly you know you get quite a lot of time fast did like so if you have a meal early in the morning I guess for you would be like at 5 or 5 30 or something and then you you know your eating window would be pretty short say at the most it's an hour and then you fast until dinner you're still fasting like 22 hours in the day it's still a long time you know a fasting so I think there are different ways to fast in terms of dizziness other thoughts I have are that it could be related to electrolytes so I'm not sure if you supplement with electrolytes but it's funny to me because I know I worked out fasted for so many years and I love doing that and I think a lot of people enjoy fasted workouts but I always felt great doing it so if I had ever felt unwell or dizzy or anything then I would have definitely changed it up so I'm just sort of speaking to what I would personally do if I was in that situation I would try having a meal before which I recently started incorporating a pre-workout meal and I've really been enjoying the workouts I've been getting and so I think it can also you know another thing to think about is also like what is the outcome that you're optimizing for because you might still be able to get there easily even if you have a meal before you workout if that makes you feel better if you are working out fed you're still getting a lot of the like the majority of the benefits from the workout it's not taking anything away from your exercise because if you burn fat more fat during your exercise fasted then you know you're still going to get the similar benefits from burning more carbs potentially while you're working out because you're going to burn more fat later so I think it all kind of evens out and the important thing is that you're doing an exercise and CrossFit is intense so I would definitely probably get dizzy as well if I was doing CrossFit fasted and that early in the morning it's just from what I've seen I have never tried it but I've seen it a lot on social media and it looks extremely hardcore and intense so that would be my suggestion what about you Melanie

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I thought, so I thought you were going to recommend, remember when we had that conversation about eating protein only before a workout?

Vanessa Spina:
Can we talk about that? Yes. And so that was, I had found some really interesting research showing that you get similar rates of mitochondrial biogenesis. A lot of people do facet workouts because of the purported mitochondrial biogenesis. But as I've been talking about in the last few episodes we've done, you know, there was a recent research review done showing that that pathway does not exist in humans from facet workouts. So you, the reason that people were still getting the mitochondrial biogenesis from eating protein before the workout was because of the workout. Just like doing it facet, it was the workout. So doing it fed, even if you have things other than protein, you're also going to get the benefits of mitochondrial biogenesis. It's the workout that does it. So I don't think it matters whether you're in the fed or facet state. And that's something I recently changed my mind on that I believed for a long time this recent research review came out and they looked at all the data in humans and they found that pathway exists in rodents, but it does not exist in humans. So it's really the workout that causes those adaptations. So that's why my answer is different.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, thank you for that. It's so, so helpful and fascinating. I'm glad you can speak to it, especially because I, well, I'm similar to you in that I, like, CrossFit is really intense. I applaud people who do it. I personally, I'm not a good person to ask because I don't do CrossFit. I personally just don't like working out in the Fed state at all. So what I would do, which I don't even know if this is an option, and this is ironic because a lot of people would say not to do this, but I would experiment with eating more the night before. I'd be curious what your actual eating window is. You might find that if you can eat more the night prior, because in a way you're eating window, I've heard like this quote from somebody like you're eating window, you're sort of fueling for the next day. So you might be able to find a combination of food that you could eat before bed that would, you know, last and make you feel okay at 6 a.m. I do like the electrolyte recommendation as well. And we have a link if you want free samples from Element. So you can go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast, and that will get you a free sample pack of Element. So check that out. Yeah, I really feel like that's, I can't really think of any other options. Yeah. Anything else? Yeah. I think that pretty much covers it. All righty. So now we have a question from Lisa. The subject is Inflammation in Juve. And would you like to read this, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Sure. So of all the supplements and or therapies like the Juve that you've tried, which do you feel is best for inflammation? Do you still love your Juve like you did in episode 77? I'm making my way through the episodes and wondering if your opinion has changed since then. Is there a way to search your website for this? If there is, I couldn't figure it out, but we'll keep trying. Thanks, Lisa.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome, Lisa. Wow, 77. So many podcast episodes. I was reflecting the other day on just how many podcast episodes has been created and same with you. What episode are you on now with your Optimal Protein podcast? We just passed 600. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. So yes, I still, I love red light therapy. I use it and near infrared. So red and near infrared therapy, which is what the jouve devices are. I use them. I use it every single day of my life. I use it to regulate my circadian rhythm. So I light my apartment with it in the morning and in the evening. I do targeted treatment on my body. It's very rare, but when I do have muscle pain, I, it's amazing how incredible it is. I actually, I also love, I interviewed Forrest Smith at Kineon and he has a targeted, a targeted laser red light device that it's small and you can actually strap it to different joints on your body or you can like hold it places. And it's a game changer for really, really targeted therapy. And Vanessa also has her tone lux devices, which are incredible red light therapy devices as well. So I have, yeah, I have not changed my opinion. I still love and adore red light. I think it's great for inflammation. The, uh, you can use the code Melanie Avalon for discounts on jouve and Kineon and tone lux, I think all the things as far as other things for inflammation. So honestly, so fasting, fasting is amazing for having an anti-inflammatory response on the body. It's probably one of my favorite things, honestly about fasting and then what you eat in your eating window, eating an anti-inflammatory diet for you because different people react to different things. I just think is so, so key. Like that's the foundation for me is the fasting and the diet and then adding on things to there. I think the best supplement for inflammation, the reason I launched Avalon X with Sarah peptase was because of how potently anti-inflammatory it is. It's amazing. It's a proteolytic enzyme. It actually goes and breaks down problematic proteins in your body, which your immune system can be reacting to. And so that's why it can so miraculously address inflammation in so many different parts of your body because it's, you know, breaking down those proteins all throughout your body that might be causing problems. That's why I made my Avalon X Sarah peptase. And again, the coupon code Melanie Avalon will get you 10% off that AvalonX.us. Other things for inflammation, cryotherapy. People often ask me why I do cold exposure and cryotherapy. And one of the main reasons, well, it's mostly how it affects my mood and how it affects my feelings of inflammation. And I've heard a lot of people say that as well. So because people will get out of the cryo chamber before me and they'll make that comment. And there's a lot of studies on that as far as how cold exposure can regulate the the immune system. I feel like those would probably be my main things. What's interesting is my CRP level, which that's a marker of inflammation in your body. Mine's been a flat line for years and years. So I think all these things are working pretty well. I also do take lotus naltrexone, which has an anti-inflammatory effect. I've been on that for a few years. Try to think if there's anything else. What are your thoughts, Vanessa? Do you talk about the anti-inflammatory benefits of your red light device?

Vanessa Spina:
I do. And actually it was amazing because I had this really bad shoulder pain. I had like a really stiff neck and shoulder and I know it's because of sleeping in the wrong position and breastfeeding at night and everything. And just with my kids, like sometimes they will just fall asleep on me and I'll get stuck in a certain position. Anyway, I don't usually have much muscle pain. So I don't really have an opportunity to use the red light for that. So I was like, hey, I have an opportunity to try this. And I literally had tried everything. I had tried cutting out some things I thought could be causing it, you know, some kind of reaction. I thought maybe it was oatmeal or gluten related. I think I mentioned that to you. And then I got a massage and that relieved the pain for a couple hours. And then it came back and it was like that kind of stiff pain where, you know, when you turn your head and you're like, uh, really uncomfortable and hard to not think about it during the day. And I was sitting on the couch. The kids had fallen asleep on me and I had the red light. I had my red light gem, which is the portable one, handheld one. And I put it between my shoulder and the couch behind me and I just did red and infrared for like 40 minutes. I just, cause it's got an automatic timer after 10 minutes and I just kept turning it back on, turning back on. And I got up and I was like, Pete, it's gone. And this has happened to me so many times with other things that have happened, even like infections. It's crazy how effective it is, especially for pain relief. And I think also the warming, the heat, especially with sore muscles. I mean, there's a reason that athletes use this for muscle recovery because I did also think, well, what if I just tweaked it when I was working out? Because I've been working out way harder and way more. It's like, what if I just tweaked it when I was working out? But I think it was, yeah, just some unrelated muscle pain. I was just amazed. And the next day it was still gone and I had it for two weeks, you know, and it was like suddenly after 40 minute session with the red light, it was gone. So I think it's extremely powerful. It might be the most underrated wellness tool that exists. I mean, it's so science backed. It does so many incredible things. Cause even if you're doing a session on say your face for boosting collagen and elastin production and the fibroblasts of mitochondria in your skin, you also have cell free mitochondria that circulate. So no matter where you do a session specifically on your body, you're getting systemic benefits on the mitochondria throughout your body as well. So in the future, I think everyone will have red light in their homes, just like a hairdryer. Like there was a time when no one had hair dryers and now everyone has one in their homes. So I think it'll be one of those things that'll just, at some point it'll be omnipresent in everyone's homes. And we're just kind of on the, you know, the cusp of it right now, sort of some people who are more like into biohacking and stuff have it. But if you have a device, you know how amazing it is. And it's just, again, we're talking about in the last episode, like the different ways that we disconnect from nature. It's just a way of reconnecting with nature because we are indoors so much. Most of us are indoors 90% of the day or more behind glass. And we don't get that red light from the sun that we get naturally when we're outside. And so this concentrated red light therapy and infrared from panels is just, I think one of the most powerful tools for lowering inflammation and for even pain relief in the moment. I don't think it could work for every kind of pain, but if it's muscle related or otherwise, there are lots of different examples of things that you wouldn't even think that it would work on. And it does. So it is, yeah, it's so powerful.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I remember one of the first times, similar to your situation where I did have some pain and I put the red light on it and I was like, oh, it's gone. It was just gone. It was shocking. When I first did it, I remember the first time I would hold the light over it and it would go away and then I would remove the light and it would come back and I was like, that's really interesting. Yeah, I didn't wait. Cell-free mitochondria, I didn't know about that. They float around and what are they powering? It's in your blood cells. Gotcha. That makes sense. That's amazing. So how can people get your device?

Vanessa Spina:
you can get it by going to ketogenicgirl.com. I have my collection of red light therapy panels there and there's several different sizes. And then I also have the crystal face mask, which I am obsessed with. And I use it in the mornings because it helps me stay consistent with red light with having a toddler and a baby. It's just really hard to have the time in the day to go sit in another room in front of a panel. But with the mask, I can just put it on and I can still interact. So I think it's a huge benefit to be able to be hands-free from it. But that's the Tone Luxe collection and it's at Ketogenic Girl. And yes, you can get 20% off with that Code Melanie Avalon.

Melanie Avalon:
I told you this last time I got it set up and then charged it now it's ready to go I just have once I get it in my habit. I know I'm gonna keep doing it I need to make it part of my nightly habit. Yeah habit stacking habit stacking. Yes. Yes No, it's really it's really wonderful that you have made that mask Especially because a lot of like the ones I'd used in the past Directly for the face where you had to like lay underneath it still it wasn't like an actual, you know Something that strapped to your face

Vanessa Spina:
Right. Yeah. And I really want to know what you think of it because I think that a lot of them are creepy, but I think that I think mine is pretty cute, but I want to know what you think when you try it on.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I love it so much. Awesome, awesome.

Vanessa Spina:
I've got my Halloween costume all set so with your mask. Yeah, just put that on be a biohacker. Yes I'm a biohacker just answer the door with that or go to a party with that and I'll be done. So funny

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I know I should just wear it out like out in the world. Yeah, why not? Let's normalize it. Do they let you in stores with masks on like that? So good question. Is that like illegal? I feel like ever since the pandemic and people wearing masks.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends what state you're in. Like in California, pretty sure you'd be fine. Depends where you are probably. It's so funny.

Melanie Avalon:
Love it, love it. Oh, and she wanted to know, is there a way to search the website? Yes, there is a search bar on both. Well, okay, so a few different things. There's ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike. And there's also melanieavalon.com/stuffilike. And you can just search on that page for things. And then you can also search the entirety of the website of both websites, their search bars, like in the top, on the top. And the good thing is, because there are transcripts of everything, everything is very searchable. So things should come up. Okey dokey. Shall we go on to our next question? Sure. So this question comes from Jodi. The subject is starting IF and Jodi says, Hi, I just started listening to your podcast and I'm super intrigued. I am a nurse practitioner and very interested in health and fitness. I did the whole 30. And since then, I'm eating a dairy free lifestyle. She says, also a petty free lifestyle. We're wondering if she means paleo. We're not quite sure. She says I could lose five pounds and I would love to keep it off. I work out five to six days a week. I have young kids and we eat dinner around 5pm, making me done eating by 6pm. Won't I be starving the next morning? I mean, I wake up now ready to eat breakfast. Does it take a while to get used to it? Is it bad if you don't do it every day? I appreciate your input on how to start with such a crazy life with work and kids. Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
I've heard different recommendations for this over the years. I think Dr. Sachin Panda, who's the scientist who really put time-restricted eating on the map, he always says, start with just pushing it back an hour. If you usually have breakfast at 7, then start having it at 8. And then after a while, start having it at 9, start having it at 10. Just push it back. Maybe gradually, you get to the point where you're having it at 10, or 11, or 12, depending on what kind of fasting window you want to have. Technically, according to the international consensus on fasting terms, 14 hours is the minimum. So if you were to have breakfast at 10 AM, you would still be doing intermittent fasting. And if you're closing your window by 6, that's still an 8-hour eating window with a 16-hour fasting window. So 10 from where you are now, if it takes some time to get there, I wouldn't be worried about how long it takes. I definitely think that there's probably an adjustment period. But hormonally, it's not usually a time that most people feel really, really hungry. A lot of people don't actually feel hungry in the morning. And I think part of that is from having coffee in the morning, which has an appetite suppressant effect. But most people hormonally tend to be hungrier later in the day. And I think that that's why intermittent fasting has sort of taken off so much, that so many people have been practicing it in the last years, is a lot of people just find that they're naturally not that hungry in the morning if they're not eating out of habit. But it's definitely going to be different for different people. So I would say, don't worry if it takes you some time to get there, and don't be afraid to get there gradually and slowly.

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, it's interesting that she says she is somebody who wakes up ready to eat breakfast, and it could be that she is one of those chronotypes that actually is hungry in the morning. I feel the same what you were saying, Vanessa, about, you know, a lot of people hormonally don't actually want to eat in the morning. I mean, I know that's me for sure and a lot of people, but something that's interesting is our hunger hormones adjust to our circadian rhythms if we follow consistent ones. So, ghrelin, for example, is a hunger hormone, and it makes you feel hungry, and it can adjust based on your pattern. So, like Vanessa said, if you go slow and slowly change things, it can adjust as well. It could be something, it's kind of like what I recommended earlier, and again, it goes against contrary wisdom, but if you definitely don't want to have a breakfast eating window, you said that you're done eating by six, you could try having a longer eating window in the evening. I know you're done eating with the kids at six, but maybe you could have something before bed. That's another possibility if you wanted to extend the eating window in the evening to make it easier in the morning. And does it take a while to get used to? So, yes, the body, you know, makes these adaptations. I mean, the good thing is you've done Whole30 before, so you've made food choices, which in theory should be supporting your metabolic health and your insulin sensitivity and all the things, but fasting can definitely, you know, take a bit to adjust to. We actually, on a recent episode, we talked about some studies that looked at how long it took people's hunger signals and things to basically for people not to be hungry while fasting. And it seemed in general that after a week or two, people often would adjust to whatever fasting window they were doing. Is it bad if you don't do it every day? Of course not. Like, definitely start wherever you're at, adding something, okay, how do I say this? Adding something beneficial to your life, in my opinion, is never a bad thing. It's not bad if you add just a little bit of it. That's good. And then you can keep going from there and adding more. I do really like Vanessa's ideas about going slow. I would have a reframe around because people often think, oh, life is so crazy, I don't have time to do this. One of the amazing things about fasting is how it actually frees up time. So I would completely reframe that if that's possible. Once you take the time to figure out the eating window that will work for you and plan the meals accordingly, now you're going to free up all this time where you would have been prepping meals that you're just not. So you're going to get time back. It's going to take a little bit of time in the beginning to create the system and think it through and plan it out and try it. But once you connect into that, you're going to get back so much time. It's also almost easier to start. I think it's easier to start fasting when you're busy because it distracts from hunger. I think one of the hardest ways to start fasting would be if you weren't busy at all and you were just like doing nothing, laying around, not eating, that would be pretty miserable for me. So yeah, I think that's a lot of options. Sure. All right. And then we will end with one more question from a different Nicole. She wants to know, what are your biggest regrets? Vanessa, do you have big regrets?

Vanessa Spina:
I tend to not be someone with a lot of regrets because I feel like life is always sort of working itself out for us in different ways. Things that we're ready for appear for us when we're ready for them. And it's sort of, you know, the way that life unfolds, like when they say when the student is ready, the teacher appears kind of thing. But the one forget I was trying to think of was if I had any regret, it would be that I did not continue resistance training. So when I, when I was in my early 20s, I got into a phase when I was doing, I always did a lot of cardio, you know, to just like manage my weight overall. But I had this period of time in my early 20s when I was in university and I went to the gym and I did, I lift, I did resistance training, I lifted weights, and then I totally moved away from it. I don't know why. Like, I don't know why. I would love to go back and ask myself why. I just don't know why. It just kind of faded out of my life and I started doing more yoga. And yoga is great, but it's great for, you know, flexibility, stretching everything. But I wish I had just kept up the resistance training because I would be so much further ahead where I am now. And I've managed to make a lot of progress in the last four years when I really recommitted to it. But now that I know everything that I do about it, I wish that I had been, well, it's two things actually, prioritizing protein and doing resistance training from that time on. I mean, I would be so ripped and jacked now. Like, it would be awesome. I wish I could go back and, you know, it would just be so amazing for my metabolic health to have built up all that muscle and get all the benefits from exercise, all the autophagy. You know, I mean, I would have been really hot all the time. But yeah, that's probably my biggest regret in, yeah, just in life in general. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
So, I'm really similar to you in that I don't like to live in a regrets-based mindset. I like to see everything as learning experiences and even really hard situations I went through. I always saw them as challenges and knew that I would grow and learn and good things would come from them. And I really like that mindset. And at the same time, I guess if I could change something kind of similar, I wish that I had done growing up. I wish I had done more musical theater, I wish I had pursued that more. And I wish that I had done dancing. I think I would have had a better, I think I would feel more comfortable in my body. I feel like now I'm making up for lost time. It's like I just recently discovered how fun dancing is at weddings and parties and Taylor Swift parties. And yeah, I wish I had done dancing more. And I wish I had appreciated growing up similar to you, Vanessa. Not the exercise per se, but on the diet side of things. I went through such a period of time in high school and middle school when I was haunted by skin issues and trying to lose weight and all those things. And I wish I just realized the power of food quality choices rather than dieting and calorie counting. And I just wish I had realized the profound effect that the food choices have in your body, which I didn't realize. I didn't realize that until I read Rob Wolf's book after graduating college. I was doing actually fasting and low carb before I really appreciated the whole foods type aspect. But yeah, the good thing is every day is a new day. You can always, always do new things and have no regrets. So awesome. Anything else from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm not surprised we have similar. Yeah, not the the musical theater one though. I'm it's it was interesting to hear that and I'm sure if you you know think hard enough there's definitely things you can regret but I definitely feel like you that you know everything is a learning experience it makes you ready for the next thing. Yeah, I love that you share that mindset but I had so much fun with you on the episode and I love the questions that we got to answer so thank you to everyone for sending in your brilliant questions and we really appreciate everyone who takes the time to do that and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, I feel the same. I echo all of it back to you. Thank you so much to the listeners for the questions. If you would like to submit your own questions, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. And the show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode396. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are I a podcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time and hope that you have a great rest of your day. Thanks to all our listeners. You too. I will talk to you next week. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

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Welcome to Episode 395 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Repercussions of intermittent fasting on the intestinal microbiota community and body composition: a systematic review

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 395 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 395 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm feeling great.

Vanessa Spina:
How are you feeling?

Melanie Avalon:
I am good. I've had a crazy few couple of nights the past few nights, some of which I will not share on the podcast, but some of which include my power went out again. Do you guys get power outages in Europe?

Vanessa Spina:
No, in Asia, we did all the time. We had backup generators and stuff on our house, but here, not really.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh really? Oh wait, that's so interesting. It's like a common thing in Asia.

Vanessa Spina:
Uh-huh. Yeah, they're like called rolling blackouts or brownouts or when I lived in Manila in the Philippines, we had backup generators on the house. So like the power would go out a few times a week and you would just like everything would turn off and then a few minutes later it would turn back on with the generators and yeah, very common. A few times a week? Yeah, it was very normal. Just like part of life, especially in Southeast Asia. I don't know if it's the same now. Like that was when I was in high school. So it might be better now. Yeah. And China sometimes, not as much, but yeah. But in Europe so far, no. Do you get a lot of them where you are?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, wait, quick question in Europe, are the power lines above ground or underground?

Vanessa Spina:
above ground. But I don't know because I don't actually, you know how in North America, you kind of like see these big power stations. Actually, there is one. I found one on a hike. Not too far. And it was out. Yeah, it was above ground. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. My apartment complex here must just be, I don't know, it keeps happening. When I grew up, our house was on a hospital line. So we never got power outages ever because of the hospital. I remember when I was a little kid, it made me so sad because I like wanted a power outage. Like I wanted to like camp in the house and like all the things. And now I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like it goes out for a second and I panic. Yes. Just gives me gratitude for modern day life. I don't think I could do like the old days. I mean, I guess I could.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, absolutely. I think every day the way that we live is so amazing and it's like the richest kings and queens or emperors of the past couldn't even have some of the small things that everyone has these days that we take for granted, like indoor plumbing, like a dryer. Actually, those are a luxury item in Europe. Not everyone has dryers, but having a dryer is a huge luxury. Just having appliances, power, lights, yeah, all the things. Although on the other side, our technology is also creating really unnatural situations for us. I read yesterday that blue light is causing the eye to attack itself. It's just like...

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, like an autoimmune condition in the eye?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I mean, I actually only read the headlines. I didn't read the study yet, but I was like, oh my goodness, but it doesn't surprise me because our environments are so...

Melanie Avalon:
unnatural. I used to literally get in arguments with chat GPT like every night. I'm like, what is modern life? I'm like arguing with a computer and then feeling bad about arguing with it and apologizing to it.

Vanessa Spina:
So, are you having some bad nights of sleep or?

Melanie Avalon:
No, I'm actually pretty, I'm pretty good with sleep. I mean, that's another ironic thing about the technology that like we probably slept better as, you know, before all of this, but I can use all of the modern technology to help myself sleep, like the cooling mattress, the cooling blankets, the, you know, all the things.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny how we have to hack our way back to nature. I was telling my father-in-law, as we were walking in the forest last weekend, and I was telling him all about grounding and how amazing it is and how I kind of dismissed it as kind of an airy fairy thing. Like, I don't know, just a nonsense pseudoscience years ago. And then it turns out that, you know, apparently in Russia, kids learn in school that the earth is negatively charged and the atmosphere is positively charged. And we used to believe that it was a sodium gradient, you know, on cells, although this is still taught in textbooks. So I guess we still believe it that the reason why our cells have negative voltage, like negative 70, negative 80, negative 90, a hundred voltage on our cells is because of the sodium differential, the ion differential between the sodium potassium inside and outside the cell.But turns out it's actually this crystalline water that is holding charge and really healthy cells have a negative charge on them and positive. And they've done studies where they've looked at the cancerous cells have really positive charges on them and grounding because the earth is negatively charged is a way that you can get rid of excess negative charges. I know you know this well, but I was explaining it to him and I'm like, he's a rocket scientist, so he's really smart. And, you know, I'm, I'm trying to make it sound not woo woo, but he also gets quantum mechanics and how fascinating it is. So he's very open-minded about stuff. But yeah, it was, it's just funny how there's all these things that I think in previously we knew and cultures that were really advanced had this knowledge too, and we're sort of rediscovering it. It feels like we're just rediscovering a lot of it right now. Oh my God.

Melanie Avalon:
So, the episode that Scott and I just recorded for the Mind Blown podcast plug, we did it on out of place artifacts. Have you gone down that rabbit hole? Oh, it's so interesting. There's all these different artifacts that we found historically that don't, like, either they don't match timelines of what we thought. They indicate technology like way before we thought people had technology, or they indicate advanced civilizations, or they indicate people being places that... It's crazy. It was really interesting. So, it's things like there's this map that was created in the 1500s that shows an accurate depiction of Antarctica, which makes no sense because they hadn't been to Antarctica, and Antarctica at that time was under snow, yet it shows the shape of Antarctica, which there's literally no way they could have known that. So, it's like, where did this map come from? Things like that, and things like there's the Baghdad Battery, which is like an ancient battery, which indicates some sort of civilization had electric power ability. Yeah, it's stuff like that. You would really like it. It's a rabbit hole for sure.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, my father-in-law was also telling me that, you know, Pangaea, I thought that was just one time that the Earth was one continent or one unified landmass, but there's been like seven. Like back and forth? Yeah, and it goes back and forth, and he was telling me the names of all the different ones. Like, I only learned about Pangaea in school, but there's seven others, and the landmass on the Earth keeps growing apart and then going back together, and it's all because of like the fault lines and everything. I had no idea, and it's one of those facts, like some of the things you're talking about where you just go through your whole life thinking one thing, and then someone drops something on you, and you're like, what, there's seven others, there were seven others? Like, it's just, yeah, that sounds like a really, really fun episode.

Melanie Avalon:
What's weird is that modern-day archaeologists tend to be really resistant to the ideas because it disrupts the timeline that's assumed. But there's just so much evidence, like there's literally, we just find stuff that doesn't match the timeline. But so they'll like try to fit, they'll like try to come up with theories that explain away all these artifacts when maybe they just indicate that things were different. I don't know why it's so shocking that there would have been an advanced civilization that got like wiped out. Like, I don't know why that has to be controversial.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I've always thought that there was. It probably has to do with our egos, but I always thought that there were civilizations that were more advanced, been completely wiped out that we don't even know about. It's one of those things that's so hard for people to change their thinking, especially when they've built their careers on it. Like when I was talking about, you know, some of the things we're learning about this fourth phase of water, this crystalline water, this water that's inside our bodies, it's like this gel-like water, it can actually hold charge. It can actually, one of the experiments they did, it powered a battery, speaking of batteries. And this knowledge means that we have to completely rewrite all biology, physiology, biochemistry, all the textbooks have to be rewritten.It's like, who wants to do that? So none of the scientists who built their careers on established ways of thinking, they don't want to go back and say that all their work was wrong. You know, it takes a lot to have a paradigm shift, but it's also very exciting when a paradigm shift does happen. And at some point, it's almost like it gets to a point where you can't resist it anymore. It has to sort of manifest, which is really interesting. We're totally on some wild tangents

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I was thinking I was thinking that the related theme is I bet the one thing we have been doing a long time is fasting. Maybe I wonder if these ancient civilizations. Hmm, who knows?

Vanessa Spina:
I know in Rome, I read about how the Romans used to do something called the Senna. Have you heard of this? It's C-E-N-A, and it meant one meal a day, and they would eat one meal a day. And I got really into this when I was doing OMAD, and they would basically have one principal meal in a day. Sometimes they would snack. It's very sort of awful, Ori, not awful, Ori, awful maker, awful hoary maker, Ori, awful maker. But during the time that I was doing OMAD, I remember researching it. Yeah, it was very much like most Romans could only afford to have like one main meal a day. And that seems similar to probably how a lot of us ate, or a lot of not us, but humans ate in the past, because if you were hunting and gathering, like you just didn't have that consistent food supply, you kind of had to fast.We were watching a nature documentary with Luca yesterday, and it was talking about the lion diet, which is like they basically hunt and have to have a big kill every two days. So they feast, and then they don't, on meat, and then they don't eat for two days, usually two or three days, depending. But I was saying to Pete, I'm like, I wonder if they had access to food around the clock. Would they eat around the clock, or would they still just eat every two, three days?

Melanie Avalon:
That is really interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
you probably could tell that from a zoo. Yeah. I'm going to ask the zoo because sometimes we go, they'll be like feeding the tiger, the lion. Like I should ask them if they eat every couple of days or if they eat every day because they're at the zoo.

Melanie Avalon:
I know that like zoo animals get a lot of mental, like they'll get like mental health issue problems and things that wild animals don't get, which is not surprising. Can you imagine your life in a exhibit?

Vanessa Spina:
No, it's horrible. Yeah, living in captivity. I think there are some animals, I remember in Vancouver where I lived, and this will be the last thing I'll say about totally off the wall topics, but they had an aquarium in Vancouver that was the world's first aquarium that every single, like most of the animals, I don't know if every single, but most animals there, the large mammals, they were all rescues. So they rescued them from the ocean and helped rehabilitate them. So every single one of them were rescues. I think some of the animals they say, especially at the Prague Zoo that we go to, that a lot of them are endangered, so they're helping them reproduce and build up their population. So it does make me feel better about it, but otherwise I get really depressed at some of the exhibits because I don't like seeing them in captivity. It's much better. When we went to the safari, we got to see them all in the wild and that was much more exciting, which I definitely wanted to do again.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can't really release them after they're in captivity because they can't handle the real world. I was reading about that in one of the authors that I interviewed. She was talking about basically this idealized view we have of the animal species that's just not accurate. We use it as a model for what is natural human behavior, but she makes the argument that animals don't actually act that way like we think they do. It's a whole tangent. But we'll use examples of how different animals seem to be inherently empathetic, but she makes arguments that it's not empathy. It's just the way the social structure and hierarchy is. But in any case, apparently you can't really release the animals that are in the zoo because they can't reintegrate into the social hierarchies and or they come back when the free willy-whale made me so sad. Hey, go. So yeah, on that note, animals fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
I was going to go into another weird tangent about what I learned about killer whales.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, wait, tell me really quickly. What?

Vanessa Spina:
They're not that nice. They're killers. They kill seals and all kinds of other dolphins. They kill dolphins. We saw that in the nature documentary we were watching sometime in the last year. It really upset me. We all kill, I guess, to eat, but they were killing them for fun, for sport. So yeah, kind of changed my opinion.

Melanie Avalon:
There's been like, I've been seeing, well, not, I haven't been seeing them, but I've been hearing people talk on podcasts about recent videos of whales attacking, recently a whale just attacked a boat, a killer whale.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember that when that was happening, like it started surging or something. They were having these big attacks.

Melanie Avalon:
Can you imagine being on a boat and just, Oh my goodness. That's terrifying.

Vanessa Spina:
Terrifying. All right, I shared my last random.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I could talk about it all day. Shall we jump into some fasting-relieving things? Yes, I would love to. All right. So to start things off, we have a quick study to discuss. This is called Reprocussions of Intermittent Fasting on the Intestinal Microbiotic Community and Body Composition, a Systemic Review. So this was published in Nutrition Reviews in March of 2022. And long story short, it ended up looking at 17 studies. What I thought was actually really interesting in the beginning was of these studies. It said most of them were either alternate-day fasting or time-restricted feeding setups. I just thought it was interesting because they make a conclusion right at the beginning of those two different approaches and the two different ways that those affect metabolic signaling throughout the body.And they said that time-restricted feeding, which tends to be what people listening to this show are often doing, it's where you're eating in time windows during the day, right? That's the definition that we agreed upon from that article, Vanessa, essentially. Yes. Yeah. We recently, we'll put a link to it in the show notes, we recently talked about a study that gave official definitions to all the different types of fasting. So that was helpful.

Vanessa Spina:
I just have to quickly say that I interviewed the author, one of the main authors, and he said that he was also frustrated with some of the terms. But he said, at least it's something, you know, it's some kind of consensus. And I was like, okay, I'm just glad we're on the same page. But I'm going to be interviewing him for this podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, thank you. That's amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
Listeners submit questions for him. That's Dr. Grant Tinsley. He spearheaded that consensus on fasting terms, but he's also done a lot of really interesting intermittent fasting research.

Melanie Avalon:
Did he not like how some of the fasting definitions included? He's also, yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
He's also a purist like me, so we kind of got to bond over that.

Melanie Avalon:
Did he say other people felt that way as well?

Vanessa Spina:
No, he just said, so I just said, look, to me, it's like, okay, it's similar to saying you have sleeping, and then you have modified sleeping, which is laying in a bed, like listening to a book. And I'm like, but that's resting, it's not sleeping. So to me, that's like saying modified fasting is eating periodically something even if it's low in one macro, you know, or if it's even just only one macro when it's like a fat fast. And he was like, I love that analogy, I'm going to use it. He's like, I also feel the same way. But I understand. I mean, they had a lot of experts on the panel. And anyway, I just wanted to, yeah, let you guys know after I interviewed him what, yeah, if what his thoughts were on that.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. I love that. That's so fun. Were there any other fun takeaways?

Vanessa Spina:
From not really on the the fasting study, I think they just had so many experts on it. And, you know, they just really saw a need to have consensus. So hopefully, it'll be the start of something. And I think that they were able to like something like protein pacing, which is a really cool study that I loved, but to me was not intermittent fasting, because they were eating protein every so many hours. To me, that shouldn't be in the category of intermittent fasting. It should be called something else like protein pacing, which is so cool as a concept on its own. So something like that, I don't think would fit into that definition if people now are using that consensus. And because there were so many experts on that panel, it should have a lot of influence on people who are publishing studies on fasting, whether or not they can use the term fasting or not, which will cause a lot less confusion.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so interesting how debated it is, like I recently interviewed Katherine Arnston again on my show for Energy Bits for her spirulina, and she's all about, for example, that spirulina doesn't break the fast, but it's like a fasting-friendly food, and I just think it's such a different — because I don't agree with that — I just think it's such a different paradigm. There's definitely like two types of people, like people who think fasting is, you know, just water, essentially, or coffee, and then gray zones.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm about to interview her again, too.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, cool. Cool, cool. Yeah, she's really up to this up on the science of spirulina. It's really impressive.

Vanessa Spina:
She really should get like an honorary PhD, although I think she is going for her PhD. Oh really? But she should get like some kind of Nobel prize or something for her work on algae, it is amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
It is. It's really, I'm really grateful for everything she's doing for sure. So okay, going back to the study, like I said, what I thought was interesting was they concluded right at the beginning that time restricted feeding influences weight control and biochemical parameters by regulating the circadian system. So our sleep-wake cycle, improving satiety control systems, oh, and improving satiety control systems by acting on leptin. So basically they were saying time-restricted feeding works because it affects our circadian rhythm and it affects our hormone that makes us feel full, which is leptin. They said on the other hand, ADF leads to a reduction of around 75% of all energy consumption regardless of dietary composition in addition to promoting hormonal adjustments that promote weight control.So for ADF, they were saying it was calorie restriction and hormones adjusting. I just thought that was really interesting that they, especially because we've been talking about you know, is intermittent fasting, the effects, are they just due to calorie restriction or are they different? I thought it was interesting that this study, even though it wasn't even looking at that, made that conclusion about those two approaches. In any case though, one of the major takeaways, and it was a long study, but the main takeaway is they were looking at how fasting affects the gut microbiome and the intestinal microbiota community in your body, specifically the firmicutes bacteroides ratio, which is the dominant strains. And so these strains are not strains that you can take in a probiotic. They actually represent around 90% of our gut microbiome, but they are not, like I said, they're not transient and they're not something you can take in a probiotic pill.So there's the gram-positive firmicutes and the gram-negative bacteroides. I always struggle with saying that. And their composition and relationship has a huge role in obesity-related metabolic changes and weight loss in the immune system and all the things. And the takeaway of the study was that fasting seemed to really beneficially affect that ratio in our body for the better for our metabolic health. So their conclusion, for example, they said, in short, the ADF and time restricted feeding protocols have a positive effect on the remodeling of the intestinal microbiota and can possibly be used to control body adiposity, improve insulin sensitivity, and achieve other obesity-related metabolic changes. These fasting protocols demonstrated a positive effect on the intestinal environment, specifically on the quality of the intestinal microbiota, which in turn has been associated with the amelioration of several diseases such as inflammatory bowel disease and changes in the gut-brain axis.So yes, do you have thoughts on this study, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I thought it was an absolutely amazing review. I had read different papers over the years that talked about this and anything that has a positive influence on the microbiome in that way, especially with regards to that population and the ratio of fermicutes and bactroides because it does have an influence on body composition really fascinatingly. I just thought it was such an amazing review because it really summarizes some of the benefits that are not talked about as much when it comes to intermittent fasting or time restricted eating, which these days are really equated a lot with caloric restriction. And so it would be interesting to know how much of the effect is from time restricted eating or ADF versus caloric reduction. If there is how much overlap, how much of the benefits happening when it comes to the intestinal microbiota are coming just from the fasting and how much is from the caloric restriction aspect of the fasting, if you know what I'm saying.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly. And what's interesting is, that's why I thought it was so interesting. In the beginning, what they said where they separated ADF from time restricted feeding, because they don't even mention calorie restriction as part of my restricted feedings, like mechanism of action. You know, that's really, really interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
It is and it also I think I was listening to a researcher who's I'm interviewing in a couple days on intermittent fasting and he was saying what's super interesting about ADF is some people like they're talking about in the study do reduce their caloric intake by as much as 75%. Then other people will do a fast for 24 hours and in their own mad they'll overcompensate to eat and match the calories that they would have missed from their whole 24 hour fast and it kind of depends on the person but I think in general most people significantly reduce their caloric intake from that from a man yep.

Melanie Avalon:
It's, it's so, so fascinating. And I think it's also a good clarification. I mentioned this already, but I think with the microbiome, I don't think a lot of people have a realization about these essentially indigenous bacteria populations that we can't modulate them really through like probiotic supplementation and such. So it's, it's really interesting that fasting can have such an effect on them and weight loss and weight gain. For example, when we take probiotics, those are different strains that can survive in oxygen. They tend to be transient. That's why you have to keep taking them. They don't, they don't colonize your, you know, gut and stay there and you're good. You have to like keep taking them. So for example, like today's episode is actually sponsored and part by seed, which is now my like favorite probiotic ever.Like I've experienced so many benefits from it. And I don't like to blanket prescribe probiotics to people because like I said, there's so many different strains and different things work for different people, but their company that their entire mission is researching the science of probiotic strains and what helps people. And they have so many studies. For me, I've noticed a lot with my skin and my GI health. And I mean, I just love them. So I tell everybody about them. People can try them out at seed.com/ifpodcast and they can use the code to five. I have podcast to get 25% off their first month of DS zero one, which is their, their probiotic. So I highly recommend that again. So I think like the, it sounds like an amazing approach to really optimizing our gut microbiome, which we know affects so many things is not just our food and the probiotics we take, but the, the fasting as well. So basically you could be 24 seven improving your gut microbiome, I think by fasting and then making supportive food choices in your eating window. So that's really, really, really exciting. Especially if you dive deep into this article, they talk about all the different effects that the gut microbiome has on, you know, other hormones like our, you know, ghrelin or hunger hormone, leptin or satiety hormone, GLP one. So people are, you know, familiar with GLP one agonist, their, their effects on GLP one from gut microbiome, another peptide called peptide P Y Y appetite control, and then inflammatory markers. So many things. So we're talking, we're talking in the beginning about what we don't know about the past and history. There's also so much we don't know just inside of our bodies with our microbiome. That's a whole civilization inside of us.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's amazing. And I'm so glad that you shared this review because it really is a really excellent one summarizing all the benefits, especially when people, you know, critique or reduce intermittent fasting or time restriction to just, you know, the caloric reduction.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah I think it's so so much more. Okie dokie, shall we get into some listener questions?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to. I just wanted to mention that have you seen that Firmicutes and Bactroides have been rebranded?

Melanie Avalon:
No.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I interviewed this expert on the microbiota. She was actually an exercise physiologist that studied the impact of exercise on the microbiome. She was really fascinating. And when I was interviewing her, she told me it was kind of funny because there were a lot of articles about how this renaming caused this massive uproar because people were really annoyed by it. Anyway, so for Mikutis was renamed basiota, basilota, B-A-C-I-L-L-O-T-A because it contains the genus basilis and Bacteroides was reclassified and split into two, Prevotella melaninogenica and Prevotella intermediate.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I have seen those words.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So it's like, I don't know why they need to do that. You know, it doesn't make much sense to me when, you know, everyone knows these names, is pretty familiar with them. But yeah, formicutes, basiota and proteobacteria. Yeah, it's, it caused an uproar in the scientific community. It's kind of like, it reminds me of when, you know, when they declassified Pluto as a planet, it was like, oh, it's like so sad. But when they just make these big changes and you're like, what committee decided this and why are they spending their time on this? But, you know, maybe, maybe the new names will be more beneficial in terms of understanding what they're actually made up of. So I guess the point with formicutes was that because they contain bacillus, their basiota. So anyway, maybe they'll catch on, but I don't think a lot of people know that they've been renamed. When was that? You said, I think it was in 2022. So it's been a couple years of people are, you know, this review was 2022.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I wonder if it was like right after this.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, probably. But also, I just don't think a lot of people know.

Melanie Avalon:
I've definitely seen those words. It's interesting because it's kind of like, oh, okay. So I heard this on a podcast recently. I don't remember who was talking about it. And I didn't go look up the origin story of it. It was a, and it was a passing comment, but the passing comment was something about how we call it adrenaline or we call it like norepinephrine or epinephrine. Wait.

Vanessa Spina:
nore or noradrenaline epinephrine norepinephrine you had it pretty much

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so the passing comment was that the reason for that is like it just comes down to like a personal thing that happened, like a drama situation type thing, you know, like different opinions. It just came to like down to a personality drama thing in the past for why that happened. I feel like there's like a lot of drama in the science world, you know, like it's just like any other social group. So, it really makes you wonder like, you know, decisions we've reached and ideas we have. What are the stories behind all of them? Yeah, good things have been different ways. It kind of ties into our theme in the beginning about, you know, being presented. It's like such a theme. I love that. Me too. No, thank you for sharing that. That's interesting. And that explains now why I've seen those words.

Vanessa Spina:
Now we all know, but are we going to use those terms? I still call Twitter, Twitter.

Melanie Avalon:
X I don't think Twitter's ever gonna I'm like how long is it gonna be like the formerly known as Twitter or like Twitter aka X like is it gonna change I don't

Vanessa Spina:
I do it on purpose because I just think it's so inane to change it. And you know, I'm a huge Elon Musk fan and I still like purposely call it Twitter because I'm like, no, I'm just gonna change the name on me. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
What do they call it now? They call it tweeting? What do they call it instead? Exing?

Vanessa Spina:
Right. I should ask my husband because he's a big Twitter person, ex-person. I'll ask him, but it's probably tweet. I don't tweet a lot. I literally just use Twitter to go on there and connect with scientists that I want to meet for the podcast. Because a lot of them, they're not on Instagram or TikTok. They kind of, I think, look down on it because it's like, you know, there's a whole mess of things on there that are pseudoscientific, but a lot of them do hang out on Twitter. So I go on there just to check messages. And then sometimes I go on and there'll be some scientists who's like, yes, I'm available this week. And I'm like, oh no, this is like five months ago.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my gosh. I feel like you should have changed it to something more analogous like chirper or something like something that would be

Vanessa Spina:
Even Exer, like anything.

Melanie Avalon:
Anything not just not x I don't go there so I don't I get scared

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it all goes back to, you know, naming things and

Melanie Avalon:
If you just sit back and think about the concept of virtual communities, it's kind of mind-blowing. It's not even a real place, but it's this fake place in our minds that we somehow connect with other people and we never even meet them in real life. It's kind of mind-blowing.

Vanessa Spina:
It is and it can totally take over your life. Like there was a point in my life when I got so involved with my online community that I was really neglecting like my in-person life community. And I had to make like an intentional change to stop, like focusing so much on the online. Cause it's like, I barely ever get to meet people online in real life. And like, yeah, we talk all the time, but I need, I need to start investing in like community locally. And I had to make that intentional shift. And it's been so wonderful to actually invest more in my community locally. And it's nothing against online community. It's just sometimes it can draw you in so much that it can sort of take over where you're like, I don't really need to invest in my real life community because I have such a vibrant online, you know, community.And, but we need, you know, in like real life connection, meeting up with people, having friendships and stuff on people that you can actually see on a regular basis to connect with this. There's so much that goes on when you're in person with someone compared to online.

Melanie Avalon:
There was one study on longevity, and they were looking at different populations, and in that study, the factor correlated the highest to longevity, I think, was, it wasn't the quality of social interactions, it was the number of social interactions, in-person social interactions, which could be like, is it just the number of people you meet in real life, or is that because in order to meet a lot of people daily, that means you're like going out and, you know, moving around and getting food and, you know, things like that, I thought that was really interesting. So, oh, we're about to answer a question, yes. So, our first question comes from Heather, and the subject is Cold Like Elsa, which I love that title, and she said, hi, with lots of exclamation points. She said, I've been fasting for about two months now, I average 19 hour fasts, around hour 16, I start to get very cold, is this normal? Could this be when my body enters ketosis? Cold, do you have thoughts on cold and keto? Ketosis.

Vanessa Spina:
So I don't know if any data is showing a link between cold and ketosis, but what comes to mind is that the body might be just going into some form of like energy preservation. That's what I would think is happening because one of the things that the body can do to save on energy is to shut off heat production. And so it could just be that towards that part of the fast, you're running low on like stored glycogen. So maybe you're it's, it's connected to switching into fat burning, which that could then be entering into ketosis depending on the person. So I think it's, it's a good idea. I don't know of like actual any, I don't know of any research saying that the body gets cold at that point, probably because it hasn't been measured that I'm aware of, although it could have been measured and I'm just not aware of it. Maybe Melanie, you know something about that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so honestly, I thought this was going to be easier to find information on than it was. What I did find that I thought was really interesting, I found a study called core body temperature energy expenditure. And there it is epinephrine during fasting, eukaryotic feeding and overfeeding and healthy adult men evidence for a ceiling effect for human thermogenic response to diet. It was actually looking at the changes in core body temperature and the thermic effect of food based on the meals you eat, but they did look at bi temperature while fasting. And some of the explanatory information was actually helpful for me. So they talked about how half, this is interesting. So half of our metabolism is actually go actually goes towards maintaining a stable core body temperature, which I did not realize.The reason I think that's really interesting to think about is that means that's a big, that's a big ratio of energy in our metabolism that can be sort of tweaked or played with depending on I'm not trying to make this too casual, but depending on the brain's interpretation of how it's responding to an energy deficit and where it wants to make adjustments accordingly. And that was my first thought when I read that. But then as I kept reading it kind of supported that because it talked about how there are there's this theory that people are either have like a spin thrift, like a, like a thrifty metabolism or not. So basically some people's metabolism seem to be, if, if there's like an energy deprivation, they kind of lock down and don't as freely burn energy anymore. And those people can be more resistant to weight loss and more prone to weight gain.And so people who have this like thrifty metabolism, it says, it literally says that it's defined by a greater decrease in energy expenditure during fasting and that these people have a lower core body temperature. So basically, if you are the type of person who has a more genetically thrifty metabolism, it's likely that while fasting, you'll get colder because your body is going to just willingly decrease energy expenditure. And that's going to directly affect core body temperature since 50% of our energy expenditure goes towards our core body temperature. And we also talked in another prior episode about fastings effect on thyroid hormones. And a lot of the studies we looked did see a decrease in T3 without an overall negative impact on the thyroid. It was just like a transient decrease in T3 and T3 raises body temperature. So fasting lowers that.That would be another reason you might, you know, get cold while fasting. So basically, it seems like it is a normal response and it can vary based on the individual. If you want to feel warmer, I have some suggestions. So ironically, doing cryotherapy, which is deliberate cold exposure every day, that actually increases your brown adipose tissue, which is your type of body fat that's purpose is to keep you warm. It actually has more mitochondria and it generates heat to keep you warm. And cold exposure can increase that throughout your body. So you can actually build up your inner thermostat in a way by building up this brown adipose tissue. And it's not necessarily gaining weight. It's more transforming your current white adipose tissue to brown adipose tissue. Also, what you eat in your eating window can have a big effect on your body temperature during the fast. At least this is just me speaking from my personal experience. But for me, it's so obvious. So if I eat like a lower protein, if I have a lower protein night, I will be colder the next day. If I have a higher protein, I'll be warmer the next day. It's shocking the difference. If you want to really heat up, add some MCT oil to your meals. At least for me, that turns me into a generator and I'm so hot the next day. So I don't like being hot. I prefer being cold. It just feels intuitively better. So I actually really like, I don't like it when I, because of my meal, have residual effects of feeling hot the next day, especially in the summer. But yeah, so I do think it is a normal response. I think it depends on your personal metabolism. Of course, if you're over restricting, over fasting, overdoing it, you could be entering a place where it's too much for your body and that cold is a problem. I don't know if she was concerned about it. I think she was just asking, but those are my thoughts on cold during fasting. Do you have any other thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
So I was going to say it used to be my issue for most of my life. I was always the cold person and I hated it except for in the summer because I was always very comfortable. And now I am always the warmest person because I eat so much protein. And in the winter, it's fantastic. It makes me cold adapted. I don't have to wear a lot of layers. Actually my friends constantly remark on how I'm wearing a tank top in winter. I mean, I will usually put a jacket on, but sometimes I will walk out without it. And I feel amazing. I love it in the winter this summer. We've had a really hot summer in Europe and I have been not liking it, not enjoying it at all, especially on really hot days. I just get so hot and like I'm showering a couple times a day and I just don't, I really don't like being hot, you know, getting too hot as well.So I need to find ways to cool off. And, you know, it's the one thing I've been thinking about a lot this summer. I'm like, I love everything about my high protein diet except for this. And this is the first summer that it's really bothered me where I'm like, maybe because I'm also wearing my baby a lot, like in the baby carrier. So that adds a lot of the keys really warm. So when I'm walking around the city, I have this like little heat pack on me on top of that and it makes me long for the days when I was fasting all the time and under eating protein and I was freezing. Like there's been a couple of days where I'm like, man, just want to like fast for a day just to be cold. But thankfully we had a bunch of rainstorms on the weekend and the temperature is finally cooling off.It's going back to a nice cooler temp, but on the hot, hot days, it is not great. I have to say I have to, it's something I still have to hack and figure out like how can I do high protein, get all the benefits except for this raging thermic effect in the summertime.

Melanie Avalon:
we know that decreased metabolism and like a lower, a lower metabolism throughout your life without a negative thyroid function is linked to longevity, which is a little bit counterintuitive. And we talked about that on a prior podcast. But for me, this is why just like the cold, it just feels like less inflamed. I just don't like feeling hot. I just, I really don't like not a fan. Do you get hot at night? I do.

Vanessa Spina:
but we keep a really cold room. And actually I had some of the better sleeps I've had all summer because the temperature finally cooled off. So we had the AC on top of that, but we like, I would sleep in like 16 Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit. I can Google it, but it is 16 Celsius is 60.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, yeah, that's, yes, we would get along really well. That's what I pretty much sleep in.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so how do you stay cold even though you eat so much protein? I need your help. Like right before I go to bed? I mean, just all the time, like during the day, like on a hot day.

Melanie Avalon:
Just to show you how much I, because I eat right before bed, so that's when I'm like at my hottest. So I have the air conditioning on, I have a cooling mattress. And now I have this Hylu blanket, which I'm obsessed with. I talked about it earlier, but it's made of graphene fiber fabric. And it, because of the nature of that fabric, from what I understand, that fabric wants to exist at 64 degrees. So whatever it's touching, it either like gives energy or pulls away energy to make that thing 64 degrees. So if you're hot, even though it's a blanket, it pulls heat out of your body. It's amazing. I'm so obsessed with it. And so listeners, if they're interested, you can go to melanieavalon.com/hilu, H-I-L-U, use the coupon code MelanieAvalon for 15% off. What's fascinating about it is it's really thin. Like it's so magical. I'm like, how is this magical, thin, smooth thing like changing my body temperature? It's really heavy too.

Vanessa Spina:
But how do you stay, okay, how do you stay cold during the day?

Melanie Avalon:
one less comment about that. So no, no, no, no worries. Just to show how important this is to me. So when my AC went out the other day, because it went out at like, or AC, okay, that's how much I value the AC. It wasn't the AC, it was the power. But as a consequence, the AC, it went out at like 7pm. And I was like, okay, it'll probably come back on in an hour or two. I wasn't getting updates. Normally they give us updates. So by like 10 or 11pm, I'd already gone to my parents, recorded a podcast, come back. Then I was like, I guess I got to go sleep with my parents because I can't sleep without like air conditioning. So I went back to my parents at like midnight.And then I got a text being like, it's coming back on at 3am. So then I was like sitting at my parents at midnight and I was like, do I just go back and wait it out so I can also have my cooling mattress and my so I did I literally went back and forth multiple times and I came back and sat in the dark from like 1am to 3am just sat on the couch like praying for it to come back on. But I needed my cooling mattress and my highly blanket.

Vanessa Spina:
I understand now why you're feeling a little rough when we started.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no. This was a few nights ago. Yeah. So no, I'm pretty much always exhausted in the morning. I just not sometimes I'm better at hiding it than others. But what you asked about during the day.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because the nighttime I'm good, it's like during the day.

Melanie Avalon:
I honestly, I, so if I were to add, this is a reason that I eat high protein, low fat. Another reason, because I find that if I eat high protein, like high fruit and lower fat, and this is just me. So friends don't like take this as gospel. That combination, especially if it's, okay, actually, you know what, I have found that different types of protein have different heating versus cooling effects. And this is a thing in Chinese medicine, and like I have this massive book, it's called like healing with whole foods. It's this massive manual that goes through basically every food ever created, and the TCM interpretation of those foods. And foods are considered in TCM to be either like cooling or warming. And so I have found that fish protein, normally the majority of my protein is fish.So it's scallops, bare moon tea, a little bit of salmon. If I eat high fish protein, I don't get massively hot. If I eat a ton of chicken, for example, I'm like burning up or like steak burning up, even though it's the same amount of protein, which is really, really interesting to me. So if my diet is high protein, but from fish and fruit and low fat, I'm okay with the temperature. But if it's like lots of chicken and steak, I'll be pretty hot. So I eat less of that during the summer months. It's okay, like you were saying during the winter.

Vanessa Spina:
Chicken is crazy because when I weed chicken breasts, I eat a lot of it and I get so hot from it. I should just do that in the winter. Chicken is steak and try to do more shrimp and fish in the summer. I love salmon. I eat it quite a bit, but I'm going to try that on really hot days. Last week, we had a week where it was over 100 every day Fahrenheit. Yeah, it's just hot. If I was cold, it makes me want to do some kind of fasting routine or something just to feel cool because I miss that feeling of just never feeling overheated no matter how hot it was outside. It's just a nice thing to be comfortable. I'm going to try that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, you should go down the rabbit hole of Googling the different the TCM temperature of the different foods. So like shrimp is actually hot in TCM, but scallops are neutral. Chicken. Let's see. I love this conversation. No, literally, Vanessa, I went through a period of my time where I was obsessed with this, like while I was eating, I would have that manual and I would just read about the foods.

Vanessa Spina:
They know so much. When I was doing my biomedical science program at U of T, they had an option after to do TCM, and I really considered it. I still think about it sometimes. But one of my favorite things I learned from that is food combining. You know, they're like, don't combine fruit.

Melanie Avalon:
with meat. Yeah, I know. I disagree.

Vanessa Spina:
I thought you might, but yeah, I love the knowledge from that. So that's, that's really cool. I want to know which are the cooling foods. I'm totally going to try it all out.

Melanie Avalon:
It's a thing. Okay, so chicken, this makes sense. So chicken and TCM, it's known for its ability to tonify blood. I can't say these words. Key and Jing. Okay. But it helps to regulate blood and expel cold. Literally.

Vanessa Spina:
Expelled cold.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So literally it's making you hot. Let's look at steak. Steak, also tonify, same thing. And it's also, yeah, it's warm. What's the other thing? Salmon. I think salmon, pretty sure salmon's, oh, salmon is considered warm in temperature.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's like other kinds of fish.

Melanie Avalon:
Bear Moondi. Let's see. I think it's like whitefish. Whitefish is neutral.

Vanessa Spina:
So my thing with whitefish is I have to add something to it like hollandaise because chicken and beef I can just have lean but fish like white salmon I can have it you know it's got some fat in it but it's relatively lean but whitefish I need something with it just like flavor wise or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you tried bare moon tea that I talk about all the time? Do they have it there though? Australia's bare moon.

Vanessa Spina:
should look. I remember wanting to look it up after our first podcast together, yeah, a few years ago.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I'm that obsessed with it. I'm talking about it all the time. Yeah, the problem is they probably don't have that Australia's brand and I want to be super clear with listeners. This is not all bare moondi because the Australia's brand is the one that raises it in tanks and they monitor it for mercury, but it's a fatty whitefish. It's a lean, fatty whitefish. It has the highest omega-3 content of any whitefish. It's delicious.

Vanessa Spina:
And obviously it's probably a little mercury.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes, they literally, they monitor it for that.

Vanessa Spina:
So if I were to find Barramundi here, I would want it to be from Australia.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh no, no, sorry. Australia's is the brand. Oh, and they don't even call it that anymore. So glad we're talking about this. It's called The Better Fish now is the brand.

Vanessa Spina:
I just found it. The better fish. Okay. Astralis.

Melanie Avalon:
Do they have it?

Vanessa Spina:
in Prague? Yeah, I don't know. It's probably it's a dot com. So I will try it. And if not, I'll try it when we're home. But I love this conversation.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Oh my gosh, we like talked the rest of the episode. Yeah, I am.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it was important though, because other people doing high protein have got to be dealing with this in the summer as well.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so fascinating because I think people don't like if you didn't realize this was all a thing that these foods have different temperature effects, you wouldn't know that you could actually biohack the protein you're eating to change your body temperature.

Vanessa Spina:
Is that the only cooling one? The whitefish?

Melanie Avalon:
So whitefish was neutral, scallops were neutral. I think, let's see what egg is. Egg white, oh, egg white is known for its ability to clear heat. I have done some clear heat, clear, yeah, get rid of it.

Vanessa Spina:
heat. Okay, because before they were saying like clear cold or something clear heat, they were expelled cold. Okay, so this is expelling heat. That's what I want. Egg whites, I eat so many egg whites. So maybe I just have egg whites.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, chicken was saying that it expelled cold, but it was warming. Wait, wait, but that, oh, wait, that makes sense. Yes. Okay. Right. These are opposites. Okay. I was thinking that they were supposed to be the same thing. Yes. These are opposites. So chicken like warmed you up and egg whites literally cool you down.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm going to try the next time we have a really hot day because it, yeah, it really affects me. So I'm definitely going to try it.

Melanie Avalon:
I think you'll find if you, okay, so say you have like a day where you just eat, and I have tried this before, right? Just had egg whites as my protein and I will be cold the next day.

Vanessa Spina:
egg whites and white fish. I could do scallops and then it would affect me the next day, not that, not the day of the next day.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, well, I'm doing it in my perspective of I eat before bed and then it's like the residual effects. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, I'm going to take notes and I'm going to report back. Please do. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I will. This is so fun. Let's look at what looks like. I wonder if they have whey protein. Let's see. Oh yeah. So in TCM, dairy products are seen as, I can't say that word, phlegm producers, not a fun word. Oh, here it is. Cow's milk is considered warm and sweet. Yeah, I don't know.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, thank you for sharing all that. I have hope for my super hot days and you know, we really delve deep on this question.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. You have to try some experimentation and report back, so and listeners as well. And for listeners, if you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes for today's episode will be at ifpodcast.com/episode395. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that is all the things. So anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. I loved the question we talked about on the episode and the theme of the podcast today was super fun, esoteric information, really enjoyed it and can't wait for the next one. Likewise.

Melanie Avalon:
Have a good rest of your night, and I will talk to you next week. Sounds good. You too. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Welcome to Episode 394 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Amy's introduction to intermittent fasting

Perimenopausal weight gain

Social push back to weight loss

Amy's fasting window and eating pattern

Nutrition to support exercise

Getting injured and recovering with red light

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Food choices

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Being a Nurse Practitioner

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Episode 388: Special Guest: Dr. Naomi Parrella, Weight Loss, Fat Loss, Semaglutide And GLP-1 Inhibitors, Fasting With An App, Muscle Loss, High Protein Diets, And More!

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 394 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 394 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I have a very special guest here today on the show. So we have been doing some episodes on this show, which are a little bit of a new and different format, which is interviewing you guys about your intermittent fasting stories. And it's been really, really fun. And honestly, some of the inspiration for it has been reading listener questions on the show and really enjoying when people share a lot about their stories and just wanting to know more. Today's guest, I am so excited to be here with. It is Amy Wrenn. She's from Orlando, and she has a really incredible story about her Intermittent Fasting journey and something we'll talk about. She's actually a nurse practitioner, which it's always so, so exciting to see the world of intermittent fasting enter the medical field.So I'm really, really excited to touch on that. We were chatting before this, but I just have so many questions for you, Amy.

Amy Wrenn:
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Melanie Avalon:
So you were saying you've been listening to this show for how long? Since

Amy Wrenn:
2019? 2017? Yep. 2019. 2018. 2018. One or the other. A long time.

Melanie Avalon:
You've been on the journey with us then for quite a while. And that actually relates to how you first started intermittent fasting or had you said that you found it through an Instagram reel, which now I'm thinking about, do you remember the actual reel you saw? Like, well, what was the magic in it that made it really land with you? I'm being selfish here trying to like figure out how to make better...Reels. It's kind of a rabbit hole.

Amy Wrenn:
I, so are you familiar with the Holderness family? They have, they probably have a TikTok and a YouTube, I don't know, but I used to, I still follow them on Facebook and they're in their forties and they make like cute, they make cute videos together. And they also have a podcast, which I was not listening to, but one day I was watching and she looked so good and I was a little bit like jealous. I'm like, how is she looking so good? I am struggling over here. And she mentioned this thing called intermittent fasting. And she mentioned that she was seeing this doctor in North Carolina, a functional medicine doctor. Well, she's actually an MD and a functional medicine doctor. And they started talking about it on their thing. And I was like, I want to do this. I want to learn more about it. So I just got on my phone and went into the podcast and I just typed in intermittent fasting and your podcast was the first one that came up.So I press play and listened to episode number two and was like hooked from there. And I think you and Jen on that particular episode was like, what's your top 10 favorite things about fasting? And you both went through your top 10 favorite things. And I was like, Oh my God, there's, this is more than just weight loss. There, there's a lot of things that go with this. And I just, from there, I listened. Cause I don't know. You guys were not on like episode 200 yet, but there was well over a hundred episodes. So I, as I started fasting, I listened to you guys every single day. And it was really great because I felt like I had a support group cause you know, fasting, the weight loss is not fast. And I feel like a lot of people fall off because they want to see that number on the scale.They want to see their clothes fitting differently. But what got me through that period of not really seeing any changes was listening to you guys every day, just repeatedly say about all the other changes that are happening in your body and all the different health benefits and listening to the questions. And so I had my own, like very own little support system through you guys. And it really, really helped bridge that gap for the first 30 days for me.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, so crazy. It's so weird to think that I've been in people's heads that long.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, you have. I feel like I know you very well.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so questions about all of that. Before that, had you been trying a lot of different diet approaches? And if so, what were the intentions for doing that originally? Were you trying to lose weight, health conditions? Where were you at before?

Amy Wrenn:
So six months before my 40th birthday, everything changed. I am a pretty petite girl. I'm 5 '2". I've always been small. I grew up a ballet dancer. I never had to diet before. I had no coping skills for losing weight because I had never had to lose weight before. I think it was maybe to the day, six months before my 40th birthday, I stepped on the scale like I normally did and I was up two pounds and I had not been up two pounds in years with the exception of pregnancies. I had pretty much stayed the same weight. I ate what I thought was a healthy diet. I ate my three meals a day. I had snacks. I was working as a nurse and I had children and exercise. I mean, I exercised quite a bit. So I was like, what is this two pound weight gain? Then the next month, another two pounds and then the next month, another two pounds to where I got to the point where I was 20 pounds overweight, which I was weighing what I weighed in pregnancy without changing my diet, without changing my exercise.I went to several doctors and bless their hearts. They didn't know what to do with me and I know people see it all the time, but they're like, you're normal. Everything's fine. And nobody cared that because I was still considered, I wasn't obese and there was lots of people who I'm sure were like, oh, I wish I weighed that, but 20 pounds is 20 pounds and I was very depressed. And on top of that, I got acne rosacea at now 40 years old and I was having joint pain, particularly in my fingers and my knuckles, just really bad joint pain and difficulty sleeping through the night. So just all of a sudden, this like turning 40 thing punched me in the face. And for two years, I really struggled. I tried the whole my fitness pal and monitoring calories, which was just absolutely miserable.I felt like I was always hungry. I was never satisfied. If I broke down and ate something, then this whole guilt and shame and you're making bad choices. And then I tried the eating to every hours. That's something that I happened upon and that was a great way to gain more weight. And then I finally got to keto. I did keto for seven months. I think I lost seven pounds doing keto. And what I did like about keto was at least there was some science behind it. I was like, okay, this, this, their science, this is how it works. This is why it works. I never lost more than seven pounds. And I was so miserable. I really like I felt like I had to think every time I went to eat, I had to really think about what I was eating. I didn't enjoy food. I really enjoy fruit. I really enjoy a sandwich. I also really enjoy potatoes. Like it was I wasn't very unhappy with it. And I finally was like, just forget it. And then I had, so then I gained the weight back and then I happened upon intermittent fasting.And when I first started, I was white knuckling it like at 11 o 'clock, I would get a headache. And I really just that hole in the beginning where my body was not metabolically flexible. It, I had low energy and headaches. And then when I was time for me to eat, I was overeating. But because I was listening to the podcast, I knew all these things were normal. And I knew that appetite correction was going to come. And I knew the weight loss was going to come. And it did. It took some time, but it did. But I had the other pleasant surprises were my, oh, my IBS went away. It was having some bad stomach issues. My joint pain went away. My face cleared up. I had more energy. I could think better like just all the wonderful things. And what I really, really, really love is that I eat a pretty healthy diet. I feel like I make good choices, but I could eat what I wanted, I didn't have to cut any macros out, so I could eat what I wanted.It was great. And ironically, once I did lose the 20 pounds, and it did not happen overnight, honestly, it took about two years. Every time I thought I was done losing weight, and then a couple months later, I would lose a couple more pounds. And then I thought I was done, and then a couple months later, I would lose a couple more pounds. So at the end of two years, in which I'm five plus now, I did finally stop. And I looked better at 47 than I did in my late 30s. So I'm loving it. It is a way of life forever for me.

Melanie Avalon:
Like to comment on the two pounds and the 20 pounds and that whole piece. I really like talking about that aspect of it because I think there's all this focus and you kind of mentioned it as well. Like there's a big focus on people who have extraordinary amounts of weight to lose, which is wonderful when they find things that work for them with intermittent fasting. We actually, the last girl I interviewed on this show, she had a much larger weight loss that she achieved with intermittent fasting. At the same time, these smaller amounts on people, it can be just as hard. People might think, oh, you know, you're not that overweight. It's it'll be easier. But weight loss resistance is weight loss resistance. Finding the diet that actually helps you burn into that fat is can be just as hard or or easy if you find the path that works for you as it is for other people with large amounts of weight loss.And then also what we know is that the way it happens for a lot of people is that slow, steady, just gaining a pound or two every year or so, you know, like, and then you don't realize and then you wake up one day like you said, and it's 20 pounds more, which when you start from a small frame, 20 pounds is, you know, relatively a lot on your frame and any amount of soapbox here. But I just feel like any amount of weight that feels like a burden to your body metabolically and such is warranted to find something that works. So thank you for sharing your experience there with that. Did you experience like socially people ever giving you pushback about wanting to lose weight? Oh, my God.

Amy Wrenn:
I experienced so much pushback from my friends that I was starving myself. Yes, I experienced a lot of pushback in the beginning, maybe for the first year. And it's funny because his friends now come to me for weight loss advice. And it's now something now that I'm a nurse practitioner, it's something I specialize in as well. But yes, I had a lot of pushback in the beginning. But the proof is in the pudding. And I look and feel great now. And I'm very strong, I've always exercised through this and I work out fasted. And I know there's a little bit of noise right now about once you're in your 40s and working out fasting and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, you know what, this is just, it's working for me. I'm not gonna change anything because it's working so well. But yes, I had a lot of pushback, a lot of resistance in the beginning.

Melanie Avalon:
have that pushed back with all of the different dietary approaches you were trying or was it more? Nope. Isn't it so interesting? Yes. Yes, it really is. I wonder if that's because we're just accustomed to all the different dietary approaches and like trying, you know, calorie counting or trying eating different things. But the idea of not eating, I just wonder why it's so different to people and why people give it pushbacks.

Amy Wrenn:
I don't know. There were some strong opinions. I will tell you that much, some strong opinions, but I didn't let it stop me. And part of it is because I had your podcast as a resource and as a support system that really, truly helped me just keep plugging away. And I would say, so I started at the end of March, April, May, June, but three months in, 90 days in, you could tell. Other people could tell. Like, I just, I feel like I had a glow. I have this picture, my friend, and I went to a concert and I was like, that's the moment you could tell. I had a glow about me like, hey, what are you doing? You look great. And I felt great.

Melanie Avalon:
What concert was it?

Amy Wrenn:
It wasn't Taylor, unfortunately, it was Rob Thomas.

Melanie Avalon:
I recently have realized how much I love going to concerts. I feel like I didn't like going to them growing up and now I'm like, I like concerts.

Amy Wrenn:
I love concerts. So I started, there was a moment when my husband used to work for somebody that had a box at the arena downtown Orlando. So anybody who came through, we get to go see. And my daughter who's in her twenties, we saw Taylor Swift speak now. We saw the red concert. No way. Stop it. Yes. Yes. I took her to see Justin Bieber. Like, and we've been honestly, because I know you're a Taylor fan, not to bore anybody else, but like she's been getting, we've gotten every album as they've come out because my daughter grew up with, with Taylor. But yes, I love concerts too. My big love is Matchbox 20, like when I was in my twenties. And so now whenever like he comes around, I try to go and I fangirl over Rob.

Melanie Avalon:
What was their main their main song? I mean, I know like I'm getting hit with like I can see the name and I can I'm Getting hit with memories. I can't hear them

Amy Wrenn:
So in the Barbie movie where he sings I Want to Push You Around, that's Matchbox.

Melanie Avalon:
20. What was their main song though when they first came out because that's what I'm getting hit with.

Amy Wrenn:
The very first song was Push, but he did that song with Carlos Santana. What is it, Senorita? Oh, okay. Harla Mona Lisa or whatever, but that was just him. But that one was a big one on the radio. But it's like 90s.

Melanie Avalon:
So you're eating window. What approach do you do? I'm going to wrap this back into the concert. No, it's fine. What approach do you do? And yeah, what approach do you do?

Amy Wrenn:
So I typically stop eating by 8 p.m. and I don't, I typically start eating at one. And it's two meals a day. Now I break my fast technically because you messaged me on something, you probably don't know. But I take the perfect aminos. I really enjoyed your podcast with Dr. Minkoff and I read his book. So I take two servings of perfect aminos and I consider that breaking my fast. I typically do that around 12 or 12.30. And then I wait at least 30 minutes to an hour to let it absorb completely. And then I start eating and then two meals. So a lunch and a dinner.

Melanie Avalon:
Nice. When did you start taking the perfect aminos in your journey?

Amy Wrenn:
In 2021, I went to Dave Aspery's biohacking conference because you also took me down that rabbit hole and you have no idea, Melanie, you've really taken me down some rabbit holes and I love it. I'm enjoying the ride. So I met them. I did not meet Dr. Makoff, but I met the body health people there and I bought their multivitamins and listened to their talk and then shortly there and they gave me the book and then after reading his book, then I think you had asked like, hey, who's somebody who I can interview and I recommended him, some other people did too and shortly thereafter you interviewed him. I don't know if it's because of our recommendations or if it was already something scheduled, but listening to that, I was like, I need to take these because I was doing CrossFit and then also just perimenopause and it's really been fantastic. I love them. I do. I take 10 of those big horse pills every single day. I don't care. Just one at a time. I get them in. It's easier than trying to eat that much. I can't.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. And for listeners, I'll put a link in the show notes to my interview with Dr. Minkoff. He wrote a book called The Perfect Protein. That's what it's called, right? I think.

Amy Wrenn:
I just want to look for it, but I loaned it to a friend, but I think it is called the perfect protein. It's the easy read. I read it in one day. It's not crazy long or anything.

Melanie Avalon:
because they actually pitched me for the show because, well, because of his brand and everything. And he had the book and I was like, is this going to just be like a cell for his protein? But then reading his book, it was really, really wonderful. Like, you really dive deep into the science of protein metabolism. So I had him on the show on the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. That was a really great interview. And I was really, I really liked the science he had in support of this idea of taking basically, basically what it is, is it's like the complete amino acid in the most pure form. So then you take it, like you're taking it, you know, an empty stomach and you're just like assimilating that your protein. So then you're meeting the needs for what you might be lacking. And actually what was really telling for me, so I interviewed him, I don't think I mentioned, I might have mentioned this when I recorded the intro, but I interviewed him, we stopped recording.And I was like, so, you know, how much should I take? And this is after me telling him how much, how much insane amounts of protein I eat. And he was literally just like, you don't need it. Oh, wow. Yeah. He was like, you're fine. Don't take any. And I was like, okay, that's really telling, you know, like he's not, he's not just trying to sell something. So awesome.

Amy Wrenn:
So cool. I noticed big changes with it too. I like just my muscle strength, my hair. My hair is one of the, I have one of those people that my hair grows to a certain length and it just doesn't grow any longer and it grew about two inches longer. And so I've just been taking them religiously ever since. They can only be helping me and I don't get the insane amount of protein in that you do. I try to eat a good amount of protein and prioritize it with every meal, but not quite what you do.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I think that's a really, really smart approach, what you're doing. I'm glad that you mentioned about it breaking the fast because I think they do, I think it's them, I'm pretty sure they say, yeah, they say that it doesn't break the fast, which I really don't know how they can say that because it's literally protein, which is literally the most anti -fasting thing.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah. They do say, they will say that I'm on their Facebook group too. And people argue kind of back and forth on it. And I'm just like, you know what? And so whenever I offer some advice on there, I'm like, I just break my fast with it. Just break your fast with it, wait 30 minutes and then eat. It either is or it isn't just do it that way. And then you don't have to worry about it.

Melanie Avalon:
I agree.

Amy Wrenn:
but they really want people to take it, or I don't know, at least their followers, you gotta take it before you work out, you gotta take it before you work out. And I'm like, listen, I take it, I work out early in the morning and I break my fast with it several hours later. It's gonna get to where it needs to go. I'm not, you know, you don't have to do it before a workout.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I'm really glad that you're pointing that out. As you know and listeners know, that's like the ongoing debate. And I mean, realistically though, at least in my opinion, as long as you're not like a bodybuilder competition where, you know, this is everything, it seems like most people are fine working out and then having their protein later, just realistically, like that's what I see. And for men too, I've heard it as well. So it's nice that that's really working for you.

Amy Wrenn:
It is and I've thought about changing it like I did. I listened to, I think I messaged you about that one guest on Huberman and she almost had me second guessing myself and then I was like, you know what? I'm not going to change anything. This is working for me. I feel great. I look great. Like I'm, I'm, this is working. I'm just going to keep doing this. If it gets to a point where it's not working for me anymore, then we'll, we'll take a, we'll, we'll look at tuning things. you

Melanie Avalon:
I think that happens to a lot of people because there's so many opinions out there and they can be very convincing opinions. And it's interesting that, like you said, we'll know what works for us. It'll be working so well and then we'll still feel the need to change. The example I use is not really to Dieter Fitness, but I remember one time I was obsessed with this product that I had ordered on Amazon. I don't remember at all what it was. Like I literally don't remember. But I remember I went in to reorder it and I loved this product. And then I was reading the reviews and like reading some negative reviews. And I was like, oh, maybe I don't like this product after all. And I was like, wait a minute. Like literally I've used it. So I think we do that with diet and nutrition. And so I'm totally down for people experimenting, but also like know what works for you.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah. I'm like, I don't need to eat a banana before I work out. Amy, you already know this. You don't need, like you don't need this, but don't do it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so true. And what type of workouts do you do?

Amy Wrenn:
So I was doing, it's not, it's more functional fitness. It wasn't the brand CrossFit, but pretty intense workouts. And then unfortunately my gym closed down and because it was a small business and it really broke my heart, maybe more than it should have, but you know, they were my family. And so now I did try some CrossFit stuff and I unfortunately ended up getting injured. And I was like, listen, listen girl, you are 47 years old. You do not have to compete with 20 year olds. Let's just find something that keeps you strong, keeps muscle on your body, keeps your bones strong, that has times of days that work well for you. So I have been going to a 45. It's actually been working great for me. I've been doing the end body since 2018. So I have a pretty good idea. Like I have a well -established baseline on there. And I have the most muscle I've ever had.And trying to get muscle on me is a struggle. It's a struggle bus. Just like, you know, it's like running uphill, especially as you get older. But I have the most muscle that I've had since 2018. So I'm like, you know what, it's working. I'm just going to keep doing it.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. For the injury, did you try any of the biohacking things to help with recovery? Yes.

Amy Wrenn:
So, I'm going to tell you about a different injury real quick. One Christmas, I think it was 2019, I was maybe had a couple glasses of wine and was doing Just Dance with my children and danced right into the coffee table and I had a spiral fracture to my big toe. I do not recommend Zero Stars. Don't do it to your big toe, it's terrible.

Melanie Avalon:
Was it was a like blood everywhere type situation?

Amy Wrenn:
There wasn't, it was inside my toe. So it was very swollen, black and blue. They said I just by like a hair mist having to have surgery. I went and I got the boot. Well, I had a, like the mini Juve because of, you know, you. And at the time, I was like, my husband's gonna die at how expensive these things are. So I'll buy the smallest one, which was still like $300. I told him it was like $50, but at any rate, I was doing the red light on my toe twice a day, 15 minutes twice a day. And he was kind of making fun of me with my silly red light. And I went in at four weeks for them to do an X -ray and kind of a checkup and the doctor, he was like, he came in the room and he was like, what are you doing? And I said, what? And he's like, I have never seen bone grow this fast. What are you doing? And I was like, seriously? I was like, it's my Juve, it's my red light. I've been putting it on every night. So that is my big win for that.

Melanie Avalon:
And that's while you're fasting, right, as well? Yes. So it's nice to know that we can be building bone while fasting. I'll give listeners a link. Do you still use your juve?

Amy Wrenn:
I do, but I need to get another one because I've used it so much and I've lent it out so much to anybody, my friends who've had surgery, they, I have them use it. You know, the, it only, when you charge it, it only lasts like a minute.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, so you have to go, the one that you hold in your hand?

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, it's the teeny tiny guy, but it really was so wonderful. I need to get a better one. Somebody gave me a gift, a Truelight. Have you heard of that brand?

Melanie Avalon:
That's not related to true dark like Dave's company, is it?

Amy Wrenn:
I think it is because I saw them at that biohacking conference. So I have one of theirs too and I used it. I just don't know if it's as good as a Juve because I haven't heard you talk about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's so funny. I'm trying to see if it's, I'm going to see if it's spelled the same as, okay. Oh, true dark. Yeah, so it might be, that might be Dave's company.

Amy Wrenn:
I think they were, they were there at his thing. Juve was not there, but True Light was there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wait, True Light by Dave Asprey, yes.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, okay. So I have his thing and I use that right now because it plugs into the wall. It's bigger. It's got the red near infrared and then it also has a yellow light. I don't use that one as much because I'm not as well versed on the yellow light. I do know I would not use that portion at nighttime. It just intuitively feels like there should be a morning thing if you're going to use that.

Melanie Avalon:
This is interesting. They have like a really skinny one.

Amy Wrenn:
This one's pretty big. This one's like four times the size of my like mini, mini Juve.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I will put a link in the show notes for Juve at the very least. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/joovv, which is J O O V V, you can get $50 off, I believe with the code Melanie Avalon. And I have mine actually literally it's right here. I have the, I have the mini. So you said many earlier. So you have the go.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, the teeny tiny one.

Melanie Avalon:
They have a one called the mini, or what used to be called the mini. I don't know if it's still called the mini, but you, um, that one, you can like stand on your desk and that's the one I have that I, I love it. Cause you can put it on your desk and like, I have it on just during the day when I'm at the computer, I mean, on me, I just feel so good. It's, it's crazy though. I haven't had the sort of energy injury you mentioned, but I did at one point have a pretty bad, I don't know if it was a sprain or what it was, but if I would shine the light on, like when the light was shining on it, the pain would just go away, which is crazy. And then the light would go off and the pain would come back. I was like, this is, this is weird. We're just going to keep this light on. Yeah, basically. And it was when I was traveling actually.And I had that, that go and I kept having to like recharge it. So that's amazing. Okay. Oh, I love that. So going back to the fasting window. So I think we've got a good picture of what you're doing. Actually one more question. So you said you eat two meals in that window. What, what do those look like? Are they protein focused? Or you were mentioned earlier how, you know, you, you like the freedom of eating what you love. So how have your eating choices evolved?

Amy Wrenn:
So I am, I'm pretty much a creature of habit, maybe not as much as you, but I for lunch either have a salad and it always has protein in it. And it's not because like, oh, I want to be good. I want to eat a salad. I just love salad. And I really love like the chicken is warm and then the salad's cold. I don't know.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I know what you're talking about. I'm getting flashbacks. I went through a salad phase. Yeah, it's very satisfying.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, I just love that. I love like that hot and cold at the same time. I will also do a, or I'll do just do a sandwich. Like I'm just, you know, a roast beef sandwich, a chicken sandwich, turkey sandwich, ham sandwich, but I have the same thing. I will warm it up like the one size. And I put cheese on it so that the cheese is melty than the other side with like cold pickles and whatever. I just like that hot and cold thing, but I'm pretty much either having one I'm having one or the other for lunch. Like there's just not a whole lot of fluctuation and one of the two. And then for dinner, I'm either having a salad with protein or I'm having just like chicken and vegetables or potato. I really love potatoes.Like I just don't wanna live in a world where I can't have potatoes and that seven months doing keto was no fun for me. And if it's like a date night, we get steak, I'm not a pasta girly. Like I don't, I could go the rest of my life without eating pasta, but I could not go the rest of my life without potato. But chicken and steak are my favorite proteins. When we went last year, my husband and I went to Italy, it was my first time abroad and it was very exciting, but thank God there's just so much pasta. So when in Rome, you eat pasta, but I was getting scallops a lot because I know those have a lot of protein in them.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that you have this like hot cold fixation when you go to the restaurants are you like what is the hot cold combination on the menu.

Amy Wrenn:
No, I already know. When I look, I could look at a video and be like, oh, that's going to be good with the hot and the cold at the same time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's so I love it. I love it. I also love that you I I like meeting fellow people who know what they like to eat and it's a relatively not I don't wanna say limited but like you know, it's it sounds like it's pretty similar what you eat all all the time all the time and that's the way I am and I I just love it like people think it's boring and I think it's the best like I love what I eat.

Amy Wrenn:
I know what I like, you know, I'm like, and I don't like some people are very adventurous and they'll, they'll try something new for dinner. And I'm like, but what if, what if you don't like it and now you've just ruined your dinner and your time out. I just, I know what I like and that's what I want to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's that's the way I am like a genuinely it's like I think some people because a lot of people and again I'm all down everybody do you Some people really need variety and like they want to eat different things all the time And I don't think they can grasp that I genuinely love eating Essentially the same thing all the time, but I do I'm the same way and it tastes so good to me. Okay, that's awesome do you find that You sounds like you always like we just talked about you're always eating the protein like if you were to Not eat the protein. Would you be really hungry?

Amy Wrenn:
I very rarely don't eat the protein because I work out a lot and I'm very aware of just being perimenopausal, so I don't do it. If I have a day where maybe I'm sick or I'm not very active, I might have a day where I push my fast out longer and it might be a lower protein day, 98% of the time I'm getting the protein in.

Melanie Avalon:
And what about, you mentioned earlier, just dancing with some wine. Do you have wine in your eating window?

Amy Wrenn:
I do. I typically keep that for the weekends, maybe one night. So what I've noticed as I have pushed past, I don't know, I'm going to say 44, I'm not metabolizing alcohol like I used to. It's very, very obvious for me. And so I've really kind of limited it to maybe one night a week, maybe two glasses of wine. And I love red wine. Red wine is my favorite. But recently, this is very exciting. I started NAD injections probably about six weeks ago, and just sub -q injections with the NAD. And initially, I wasn't like, oh, I'm not really noticing much energy. But I'll tell you what I have noticed, is I am metabolizing alcohol, I would say, like 90% better than I was before. Where before, I would just be so exhausted. I mean, I could just feel it. I could feel it in my brain. I could feel it in my body, my eyeballs. And now I'm like, I don't even feel like I had a drink last night. So it's not an excuse to drink more. I'm just when I do have my alcohol, I'm processing it better. So I'm just excited about that.

Melanie Avalon:
NAD for listeners. It's basically your body's master metabolic enzyme. It's involved in everything you do that requires energy. And so there's theories. I say theories because it's very heavily debated, but the idea is that supporting your NAD levels are great for combating stress, for drinking, for anti -aging, all the things for health. And there's a lot of different ways that you can get it in. So you can get it in. People will do IVs. I have not done an IV. Have you done an IV?

Amy Wrenn:
I have not, just doing this sub -Q right now at home.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, at home. Oh, because you're a nurse practitioner. Is that how you can do it yourself?

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, I mean, people can, I've prescribed it for patients to take it home, but there is a protocol where you can do every third day, you can take and you start just like with an IV, where you start and you low and you titrate up with it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, that's awesome. So do you feel, how do you feel when you actually, because when I was doing the, I did the inner muscular injections for a while and immediately after doing it, I would feel like not very, not good. Like tight chested and oh, yeah.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, so the first couple, the first week I did like, and I don't remember like milligrams per unit, sorry, but I did 10 units like every third day. And I was like, this is nothing. And then I did the 20 units, this is nothing. And then I got to 30 and I was like, oh my God, I'm having a heart attack. And I really oddly feel it in my legs and my chest and it lasts for about 10 minutes. And it's a very weird feeling, but I checked like my heart rate was normal, but it does feel weird. And it's the same thing with an IV. If you give it somebody in an IV and you give them too much too fast, they will have that feeling too. You got to go really slow and people have to titrate up on it. But now I'm on like, I don't know, maybe week six, seven, eight, somewhere in there. So my body's getting more used to it.

Melanie Avalon:
You described it perfectly, the feeling. It's like a very indescribable feeling, but it just feels not right. Like somebody feels like not right in your body.

Amy Wrenn:
to have a medical emergency, what's happening? Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, what I've been, have you seen me been talking about ion layer patches?

Amy Wrenn:
Yes, I did. I looked into it, but because I can get things it costs.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it is a little bit, I'm hoping it'll continue to come down and my code does give you $100 off, but basically they're NAD patches. And what I love about them is, I mean, you're doing the injections at home, which is more, what's the word accessible, but for people who are going into a clinic to get injections, this you can just do at home, it lasts up to 14 hours. It's basically like a slow drip, like an IV, except you don't feel, you don't feel any negative side effects, you just feel really energized. And I find it perfect for when I'm going out and drinking or the next day after drinking, it's just a game changer.

Amy Wrenn:
It really is a game changer. I had no idea. I did not go into this when I started it. I was like, I just want to experience it. I've never done NAD outside of maybe Quicksilver several years ago. And I was probably in it and actually not even NAD. But, and so I wasn't anticipating the change. And then it took me, I was like, wait a minute. I haven't, I haven't felt hungover. I haven't felt terrible. And I'm like, oh my God, it's the NAD. But I do want to try, is it Ion? Is that what it's called? Yeah, so it's Ion layer. I do want to try it. And I'll probably in the first of the year, try it just to see what it's like, just to experiment because I kind of like to experiment with stuff like that.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll be, you have to let me know what you like, especially comparing it to the injections. Cause like I said, I did the injections for probably a long time, maybe a year. And then I found the patches and I was like, Oh, I'm never going back. So for listeners, they can go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer. So I O N L A Y E R and the code Melanie Avalon will get you a hundred dollars off your first order. So I love them. You just like mix up the NAD yourself and put it on the patch and off to the races. Well, awesome. Okay. I do. I love the biohacking tangents. This is great. No, it's so amazing. Question. Have you been back to Dave's conference since 20 to 2021?

Amy Wrenn:
I was able to go to that one because it was it was in Orlando because California was shut down at the time But I would love to go again

Melanie Avalon:
Sorry, you said you did or did not go to Orlando.

Amy Wrenn:
He came to Orlando in 2021. Oh, wait, 2021's Orlando? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. You weren't there. But he came back. He came back to Orlando. Did he? Yeah. Yeah. That's why that's why I'm confused. I didn't know he came back. The first one I went to was in Orlando and it was not this past one. So not it was 2023. Okay. Well, the

Amy Wrenn:
a bummer. I didn't know. We just missed each other next time. You know what? My mom died last year around this time. I'm sorry. I think I was out of commission with all that and that's probably why I didn't even know. My brain was offline for a minute there.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm so sorry.

Amy Wrenn:
I appreciate.

Melanie Avalon:
that really sad. Okay, the question I had about okay, but I'm bringing it back to the concert and the social stuff and everything. So you're eating windows one to eight. First of all, how strict are you on that?

Amy Wrenn:
So in the beginning, when I was losing weight, and by beginning, I mean first two years, I was very strict, very, very strict. I did eventually for, I don't know how many months I got the app, I forgot what it's called. It was like four letters, I don't remember, but so I could clock in and clock out of my window and that helped me be mindful. And I also, at that time, I would occasionally have like a glass of wine during the week and I was like, how am I gonna break this? And so I think it was maybe Jen's suggestion. I get San Pellegrino and I put it in my wine glass. And that was just like, my brain felt like I was drinking wine and eventually I didn't need to do that like hand to mouth motion anymore. That's just a fun tip for anybody who's first starting out with it, who maybe needs to break that glass of wine at nighttime kind of deal. Once I got to my weight that I'm at now, I will make exceptions.So like if it's a weekend and there's a special event and we're out to dinner and it's, you know, I'm not gonna stop at eight o 'clock. I'm going to continue with the night and do my thing. I might push back the next day when I break my fast, but I might not, I'm more flexible with it now. But my body's super, super primed and used to this.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So, so if you're going to a concert type situation, you would eat before. Yes. Yeah. And then, and then go. Yeah. Have you experimented with any longer fasts?

Amy Wrenn:
you know, not on purpose, but yes, I have done some 24 hour fast, which were, like I said, not planned, but just kind of one of those things where like, you know, if there's a, I've had some family emergencies or I've had to take somebody to the hospital and the next thing you know, it's 9pm at night and you're like, Oh, I didn't eat today. So, but not, not on purpose. If maybe I did have like a weekend where it was a little bit heavier eating or heavier drinking the next day, I might do like an 18 or 19 hour. It just depends. But most of the time I really stick to the, I stop around eight or earlier potentially, and then don't really eat anything until one.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that you found what, you know, what really works for you. It's so great. It does work for me. It's great. Speaking up hospital. So going back to you being a nurse practitioner. So how long have you been practicing that?

Amy Wrenn:
I was a nurse for 15 years doing emergency obstetrics and labor delivery, and then I went back to school and became a nurse practitioner. I became a nurse practitioner back in 2020, and I have my family nurse practitioner certification, but I work in more of an integrative space. I specialize in bioidentical hormone therapy, and I also do weight loss. I've been working with GLP1s for the last four years. I work with peptides.

Melanie Avalon:
as well. Okay. So what do you think about the whole GLP1 world?

Amy Wrenn:
I love the GLP ones. I really do. For patients who have, they come in and they're like, these are all the things I've tried. Nothing's working. And I get it because, and you know, that two year window, nothing was working for me until I found fasting. And a lot of people will say that they tried fasting, but they didn't stick it out past the two weeks. I'm very fortunate that I had your podcast because it's really what helped kept pushing me through. And so for a lot of these people, when we start them on the GLP one, and I do a pretty comprehensive labs with them as well. So I'm looking at fasting insulin. I'm looking at inflammation markers, hemoglobin A1C, thyroid hormones, just a whole bunch of stuff. And a lot of these people, cholesterol, they come in and they're pretty sick. Like your average person on paper, on their blood work does not look good. And I start them on these GLP ones and I start, you know, you titrate with it, you start slow.And within several weeks, it's almost like a shot of fasting, if that makes sense. In the beginning, they will have some side effects, but they'll be really, really tired because their bodies aren't metabolically flexible. And so, and they'll get headaches too, just like I did in the beginning of fasting. But once their body starts to become more metabolically flexible and starts using this fat for fuel, then they start having extra energy. And they're not, they don't have that food noise. They have that appetite correction. So I see a lot of parallels to fasting with it. And then when we do some follow -up blood work, their cholesterol is better, their inflammation is better. They're just across the board. The things that made them unhealthy before, they are just so much healthier. And they just, you kind of just see like life come back in their eyes as well. And then what I do, so now some people need to be on them long -term, certainly.Some people don't need to be on them long -term. They just needed something to kind of like that restart button, the, have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in? That's kind of what this medication does. And once they get to the weight loss and on average, I would say two pounds per week on average, some weeks that might look like one pound, other weeks that might look like three pounds. But when they get to where they want to go and they want to come off, I taper them off and I transition them into fasting because they're already kind of doing it. And they've spent these months building up this routine, kind of sort of like pressing the easy button because they weren't hungry. So they've built this schedule. They've built this routine. And so as we taper off, I would get them to do fasting, whichever windows would work well for them and just let them know if you go back to eating how you did prior to this medication, you're gonna end up with the body you had prior.But if we implement these changes and you stick to it, then you'll be able to maintain this. And I, my patients were very, very successful. And of course I just push the, you have to prioritize protein and you have to move, you have to exercise. And if that exercising is, you know, just putting on some ankle weights and going on a walk, you know, you have to do something. You can't just sit back because you want to lose fat. You don't want to lose muscle. And I did, because I had an in -body, I could really kind of take a good look at are they maintaining their muscle? Are they losing their fat? So I had some metrics to go by, but overall I'm a fan. It's not for everybody. It's not, but it is for a lot of people. And they have more and more studies coming out saying, you know, not only does it help with your blood sugar, but it's reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease. And now they're saying that it's reducing the risk of Alzheimer's and dementia. And so it's just exciting.

Melanie Avalon:
I love hearing this in particular because I think a lot of people are and I'll put a link in the show notes, you mentioned earlier that you used a fasting app. I don't know if it was the zero app or not. Yes, that was it. I interviewed recently Dr. Naomi, who is now she's one of the head people at zero. She's a doctor and she has like a weight loss. I think she works at a weight loss clinic. But we dived really deep into the science of GLP ones, you know, there's all this concern about muscle loss, which I think is so important and is happening to a lot of people. And I also wonder at the same time if people were to approach them and use them in a smart way and focus on protein and focus on maintaining muscle and staying active. Like you were saying, I just feel like, you know, that's a different case.

Amy Wrenn:
It is. And I've seen it. I've seen it 100 times. You can be on those and build muscle. You just have to put in the work, and you have to eat the protein.

Melanie Avalon:
And I've also wondered, and you literally said it, I've wondered maybe if people can be on them and then go off and transition into a fasting approach with a high protein diet, maybe that's the way to as much as possible sustain the results.

Amy Wrenn:
I did it with all my patients and the patients who adhered to that plan had lasting results. And even sometimes would come back and be even less body fat percentage than they were going like when they stopped the medication. Yeah, really incredible results.

Melanie Avalon:
results. Wow. Do you see people in Orlando or do you do online?

Amy Wrenn:
I'm actually not seeing patients right at the moment. I was in the clinic that I was at, they sold it, and I didn't agree with maybe the direction of the new owners because I'm very passionate and I have, I mean, nurse practitioners are nurses first and we just, we've put our patients first and I'm always going to put what I feel like is best for my patients first. So I am actually right now in a really cool position where I'm with a friend of mine and we've created or they've created, brought me on to help create this company that's called Advanced Practitioners Network and I'm doing clinical education for it. So I'm helping teach other doctors, other nurse practitioners about bioidentical hormone therapy, also peptides and GLP ones. So I feel like I have a broader reach now because we work with different clinics in almost all the different states and doing education and teaching them how to do these things appropriately.So it's been very, very rewarding for me, which is how when I won the key on and I told you I got to do that lecture on fasting that day, I was very excited about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes, yes, that's how we yeah, isn't I think that's when I was like, Oh, you should come on the show. Yes, yes. Yes. Can you tell listeners briefly what lecture you did?

Amy Wrenn:
I did a lecture on fasting. Gosh, it was on just regular fasting, intermittent fasting, went a little bit into the fasting mimicking diet. It was for a bunch of doctors and practitioners, so it got a little sciency with the mTOR pathways and all that. It was kind of hard for me because I actually didn't create the presentation. It was created by one of my mentors, Dr. Louis Martinez, and he gave it to me and was like, hey, will you do this presentation? I was like, yes. Even though I know a lot about fasting and learning, somebody else's presentation is kind of hard. He had specific studies and specific diagrams, but it was very exciting for me. It was the first time I had been a speaker at a conference, so that was exciting too.

Melanie Avalon:
Cool, and congrats on that. Yeah, that's amazing. And thank you for doing that, talking about fasting and everything. It's really, really motivating and inspiring to hear people like you doing what you're doing. Because honestly, that's the way to really reach people in a very, very practical way. So it's so nice that you're doing that, and especially the education piece. Oh my goodness.

Amy Wrenn:
I'm loving it. We're actually writing a book right now too. I never thought... There's all these things that I'm doing that I never thought I'd be doing and it's very exciting. But yeah, we are... Dr. Martinez and I are writing a book on biogenical hormone therapy.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, cool. Well, when you finish it, you guys should come back on the show.

Amy Wrenn:
Oh, fun, yes!

Melanie Avalon:
I would love that. Awesome. Well, is there anything else about your fasting journey that you would like to share with listeners? Any advice or tips or tricks or takeaways?

Amy Wrenn:
Because I think the biggest thing in the beginning is you just have to give it time and know that things are happening on the inside. And like I said, I had more than just weight loss. I obviously, at that time, I had a lot of inflammation that I didn't know about and that was presenting itself as in joint pain, acne rosacea on my face, and then also the weight gain. And so with time and with just trusting the process, I was able to reverse that inflammation. My skin got better, my joints got better, and then I had improved energy. And then, you know, aesthetically, I was able to lose the weight and get back into my clothes and then eventually need smaller clothes. So I think just giving it the time and using the things that are available to you, such as that Xero app, I just kind of liked clocking in and clocking out of my eating window and things like the San Pellegrino and a wine glass to make you feel like you're having your drink.Those kind of tools really helped me along. And then, I'm not really sure who said it. And I don't know where I picked it up, but somebody along the way, you know, said about increasing your steps. And I use that with my patients a lot because there are some people who are like, absolutely no, don't tell me to exercise. But almost everybody's phone, people have their phones on them if they don't have any kind of tracking device. If you look at it and you're getting 4,000 steps a day, try to get 5,000, just any little thing that you can do. And you kind of do that too with your iron pans that you work with. And I know you do the ankle weights and they make a difference, I swear. I believe you. I believe you. So just making those little changes, habits, and then it just becomes part of your routine. And then you can just kind of keep tweaking those things. You don't have to bite off big giant things. Just take these baby steps until they're part of your routine and then you can take another baby step.And next thing you know, you've gone a long way. What is that saying? Like, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? Something like that. It's the same kind of thing. So and then and then also the other thing, just know when you first start and you break your fast and you eat every single thing in your kitchen, that is temporary. It's going to get better. You'll have appetite correction. It will blow your mind.

Melanie Avalon:
your mind. That was so amazing and so helpful. I love that. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of magic to just adjusting the little things that you do every day in little ways. It doesn't have to be this big, huge, concentrated, you know, starting this crazy gym practice and going, I mean, do that if you want, but there's like, you can make so much progress with all these little changes.

Amy Wrenn:
Yeah, do things that are sustainable.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly.

Amy Wrenn:
Oh my goodness. Well, this was so fun. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
so much. And we'll put pictures in the show notes, but you look amazing. You're glowing. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing everything and everything that you're doing and being here with us on the show. Hopefully we get to meet in real life sometime.

Amy Wrenn:
really hope so. I really do. I think it's going to happen. Like I said, I feel like I've been manifesting this for several years now.

Melanie Avalon:
I am going to by the time this airs, it will have happened, but it's kind of closer to you. I'm going to eudaimonia. Have you heard of that conference? No, where's that? It's in West Palm Beach and like everybody is there. I'm gonna meet Cynthia Thurlow in person. We've never met.

Amy Wrenn:
I'm so excited. Okay, what month is it in?

Melanie Avalon:
November 1st through 3rd, Dave speaking, Huberman is speaking.

Amy Wrenn:
Oh no, I think I did see that. I love her. Thank you for turning me on to her. I'm obsessed.

Melanie Avalon:
I love her too. Like literally so many guests I've had on my show are going to be speakers. So you should go.

Amy Wrenn:
I need to get my son is at school over there at in Boca Raton at FAU, so I should make it a weekend.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, you should. If you do, totally let me know because I will be there. I will. I'm going to go the first two days. And again, when this airs, it'll be in the past. But so hopefully we got to meet. That'll be exciting. But thank you so much, Amy. This was absolutely amazing. Congrats on everything you've accomplished and are doing. And yeah, just keep on keep on keeping on. This was awesome. This was. Thank you so much. Awesome. You too. I will talk to you in the future. OK, talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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Welcome to Episode 393 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and receive your choice between a whole turkey, turkey breast or spiral ham in your first box. Plus, get $20 off your first order!

Listener Q&A: Kenna - Hashimoto's and thyroid issues with intermittent fasting. Good idea? Bad idea?

Episode 374: Autoimmune conditions, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Inflammation, C-Reactive Protein, Plant Based Diets, Fasting Styles, And More!

Listener Q&A: Rachael - I would love to hear Vanessa's take on breastfeeding and IF/keto

Listener Q&A: Jann B - Who do we believe [about nutrition] and what do we eat for optimal health?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 393 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode number 393 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everybody. What is new in your life, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Everything is great. Things are going really well. How are things with you? They're good.

Melanie Avalon:
this episode actually airs a few days before Halloween. I won't talk about it too long, but I'm really excited because, are you a Wicked fan? I think you mentioned it recently. I probably mentioned it because I saw Dina Menzel. Yes, that's what it was. Well, related but unrelated, my sister and I decided last night that we're gonna be Alpha Bunclinda for Halloween. So cute.

Vanessa Spina:
I love how you plan your costumes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I literally already started ordering the costume.

Vanessa Spina:
And what are you going to do for Halloween?

Melanie Avalon:
go out? I don't know. Normally, we've been going to like the aquarium. We'll have events. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You went to a gala or something there, right? Yeah. They have like a sips under the sea where you like drink and look at the fishes. Yeah. I'm all about the Halloween parties. Here's a random thing I wanted to share though. I was reading this random article online and I know we talk about this a lot, but I don't think I realized the history of this. Do you know where the phrase breakfast is the most important meal of the day comes from? Kellogg's maybe. Yes. It was a marketing slogan in 1917. Isn't that upsetting? I don't know how I didn't realize that it literally was a marketing slogan.

Vanessa Spina:
Kellogg's is like one of the most disturbing stories that a lot of people don't know about too. Maybe more people know about it now. It's very bizarre.

Melanie Avalon:
So this says the founder, John Harvey Kellogg, was a physician and seventh-day Adventist and he strongly believed in the connection between healthy eating and religious morality. His idea was that creating a simple bland food like cornflakes would encourage abstinence from sex and a clean, pure lifestyle. He pushed the slogan to encourage more people to eat a plain cereal breakfast to support these values.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's so weird. Like they wanted people to suppress their carnal impulses and stay away from meat, which is, you know, makes you more carnal. It's the root word carne. Oh, wow. I never realized that like carne asada. Mm hmm. And they wanted people to eat these like sad dried flakes to make them I love that they're sad. They are right? Literally standard American diet, high carb. It's such a weird story. It's such a weird story. And then, I mean, I have nothing against people who believe in, you know, that religious sector or anything. But I think the origin of it, there was like a young woman who had these like visions where she was told that we should be vegan. And that's kind of why Seventh Day Adventists are vegan. And, you know, Dr. Ted Naaman was one who was like brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist. I don't know what you call it, sect or the theology of Seventh Day Adventist, or I'm not sure how you refer to it. And, you know, he's, he's such a big, you know, protein advocate and proponent because he saw the effects that it had on his body composition. It's really interesting. But yeah, it's, it's, it's so bizarre. When I first heard about it, I was like, there's no way that could be true. Like if you really read the whole story, I interviewed this vegan influencer. He was like a fit fitness model, John Venus. And he was really big fitness. He was a really big fitness influencer who was vegan. And then he decided to basically like start eating meat again. I did this really interesting interview with him because we talked in depth about it. And I had all these like, you know, images in the video interview, showing some of the stuff like the roots of Seventh Day Adventism and veganism and all that stuff. And like, people are just like, what? Like, how is this real? Anyway, I'm not surprised that it's Kellogg's.

Melanie Avalon:
It's interesting because apply that logic, especially because with intermittent fasting, a lot of people's concerns is that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. We feel like that comes from science. I know there have been a lot of studies on breakfast eaters, but I've done a deep dive into that and I find the studies a little bit nuanced and a lot of them are funded by breakfast cereal industries. A lot of them are lifestyle because we've been told for so long that breakfast is the most important meal of the day, that there's the healthy user bias. People who are following healthy habits often tend to eat breakfast because they're following the healthy habit lifestyle that we've been prescribed and told about. Think about it about something else. Think if there was something like, I don't know, drink more water. What if you found out that that came from, which it didn't, but what if you found out that that came from like Aquafina or Dasani? You would be a little bit skeptical about it. To hear that breakfast is the most important meal of the day or if you heard that like an apple a day keeps a doctor away came from, I don't know, if there was some apple company. So to know that this idea that's been so saturated in our culture came from a cereal company, I mean that alone is an issue, but then on top of that, a cereal company that was trying to change people's morality with their cereal, it's just, I don't know, it's very disturbing and it makes it really hard to take breakfast as the most important meal of the day seriously, as a phrase.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, I've kind of reframed it in my head because there is really interesting research that the first meal that you have in the day, if it is a protein-rich breakfast, that that gives superior blood glucose control for up to 24 to 48 hours following, I think it's at least 24 hours. So I tend to think of whichever meal you break your fast is, is your break fast. And so it is quite important. I do agree with it because I think it can also set the tone for the day in terms of your blood glucose control. So having protein at that meal I think is really important, which cornflakes, flakes of corn are pretty scant in. So if people are going to have some flakes of corn, I would like for them to add protein powder into it. My mom likes cornflakes in the morning, and so she puts my protein powder in it. And my dad likes to have muesli, and he puts my protein powder in it now. So I'm really happy about that because I think, you know, just having protein at that first meal is so helpful, you know, to halt muscle protein breakdown, which is, you know, quite high throughout the night and up until you have your first meal. So I do believe it is probably the most important meal of the day. But if you have OMAD, it's also a break fast or breakfast, right? Exactly.

Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I'm so glad you brought that up. It is literally break fast. But breaking it with something, you know, we just talked about this, but literally, you know, the Kellogg's are like this, those cereals were created to make people lackluster in their energy. Like literally the point was to tame down people's vitality.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's great.

Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. So it's just something to let marinate. Yeah, I have my breakfast every night at late. Very, very late. I'm also really intrigued. It's really interesting to think about, like it could have gone so many different ways. I find it really interesting that what culturally certain foods became quote breakfast foods and not other foods. Like I find it really interesting, you know, why are eggs, why are they a breakfast food and not a dinner food? And why is that is interesting. Why is chicken a lunch and dinner food and not a breakfast food? Like why?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I could have eggs at any meal of the day and actually often add them to my dinner if I'm having a burger because they're so nutrient dense and I don't always have them for breakfast. But yeah, it's like, why are they a breakfast food? There must be, I'm sure there's a reason.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I'm sure there is, or like, and you would think like, oh, maybe it's like the time required, but like pancakes, that requires a lot of time to make that. So why are pancakes breakfast and not dinner? Yeah, because I can see eggs, like eggs are easy. Like you just crack them in. So maybe they're easy for breakfast, but the logic doesn't follow.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like to eat breakfast foods for dinner sometimes. I'll make waffles. I'll make protein waffles. I'll have eggs anytime of day, but yeah, it is really funny and interesting what made those foods. Have you had other eggs?

Melanie Avalon:
like goose eggs.

Vanessa Spina:
No, but duck eggs. I used to recommend duck eggs to people if they had issues with eggs, because there's a crazy amount of people have issues with eggs. And I didn't realize it until years ago, I was doing my meal plans and programs. And I had a few thousand people were doing my programs. And so many people would be like, do you have an egg alternative? It was a huge amount of people. Like I thought most people could tolerate eggs, except for like, like my aunt, she couldn't eat egg whites. I thought if anything, sometimes people have issues with the egg whites, so they can still have the yolks. And you can actually make plenty of egg dishes just with the yolks. But it really astounded me how many people have egg intolerances or they just can't eat eggs at all.

Melanie Avalon:
Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. It makes sense when you think about it because the egg, it needs its own protection. So it makes sense that the immune system would be reacting to it for some people. Yeah, it's really interesting. I do like eggs. Well, anything else new or shall we jump into some questions? Yeah, ready to jump in. All right. Would you like to read the question from Kenna? It's.

Vanessa Spina:
Sure, so Kenna asks, Hashimoto's and thyroid issues with intermittent fasting. Good idea, bad idea?

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Kenna, thank you for your question. I did a deep, deep dive into this. So I know her question is about Hashimoto's specifically, and that is an autoimmune thyroid condition. But I wanted to look at the whole picture. So basically, how does fasting affect the thyroid in general? And then how might fasting affect Hashimoto's? So I tried to find every study I could find looking at fasting in the thyroid. And I'm just going to go through them, because I think it will provide a good picture of how the results, there's not one answer for how it seems to affect the thyroid. So I think you'll get a good idea if I go through a few of them. So for example, there was one study called Randomized Controlled Trial for Time-Restricted Eating in Overweight and Obese Young Adults. That was an August 2022 article. It looked at a six-hour eating window in overweight and obese young adults, and it found no significant difference in free T3. You know what, before I do this, let me give a really quick brief overview of the hormones, so this will make sense. So the main ones that I'm going to be talking about are T4 and free T4. So that is the storage form of your thyroid hormone. It gets converted in your body to T3, which is the active form. So the actual feeling you have of, like, is your thyroid working correctly? Like, is the metabolism going? That's the feeling of T3, because that's the active form. But it's dependent on T4, because that's the storage form that converts into it. TSH is what the doctors often look at to determine your thyroid status. TSH is actually not a thyroid hormone or signaling thing. It's actually related to the pituitary. And it is how the brain is feeling about thyroid levels, like, are they too low? Are they too high? And then the TSH is a signaling that tells the thyroid to make more or less hormone. So when doctors look at TSH, if it's higher, it means that your brain is perceiving that you are low in thyroid, because it's saying, we need more. So it's like sending TSH signals. If the TSH is lower, it's like the brain is saying, we have enough thyroid hormone. You know, make less. So that's what's going on there. The irony about it is when you get a standard thyroid panel, the doctor will usually just look at TSH and T4. So basically, they're looking at TSH, which is how your brain is interpreting things. It's not actually what actually might be going on. And then T4, which isn't even the active form. So there's so much room for false, just false interpretations of what's happening, because your signaling could be going, but it's not actually landing, like, you know, the thyroid's not responding appropriately. The pituitary could just be off in the TSH. I don't know how common that is. But then T4 is the storage form. So it doesn't even speak to the active thyroid hormone that you have. So with that caveat, let us look at these trials. There was that one I talked about that I just mentioned, the randomized controlled trial for time restricted eating and overweight and obese young adults. It looked at a six hour eating group. It found that the fasting, so with a six hour eating, decreased, did reduce the TSH. But there was no significant difference in free T3 or free T4. So basically, the actual thyroid hormones did not change, but the TSH went down. So the metabolism was not changing at all. But the pituitary, so the brain was like, let's maybe make a little less thyroid, even though it didn't manifest that way. They also mentioned as well, what's interesting is that low levels of TSH and thyroid hormones without an impaired thyroid gland have been related to longevity. So the takeaway here was that this possibly could have longevity boosting benefits. And there was no actual change in the metabolic rate, at least in that study. So that's one. There was one called alternate day fasting improves physiological and molecular markers of aging in healthy non obese adults. This one looked at alternate day fasting, and it found that there was no chance, this is ironic because it's literally the opposite of what the other one found. This one found the TSH did not change, but the T3 did go down a little bit. That said, there was no changes in resting energy expenditure. So that's a little bit mind blowing. Basically the thyroid, the active thyroid hormone T3 went down a little bit, but they resting metabolic rate didn't change, which seems like a paradox, but that's what they found. And they also commented as well that this might be slowing of the aging process because the reduced T3 is actually related to longevity. They also found no difference in T4, which is interesting. Yeah, and then to comment just again on the metabolism change, they said, we did not detect changes in resting energy expenditure after ADF, neither in the randomized control trial nor in the long-term fasteners. Then there was another study called effects of intermittent fasting on the circulating levels and circadian rhythms of hormones. This was 2021. This actually was a review of studies of the findings, and they found in general that fasting can cause T3 and stem studies to go down rapidly with fasting up to 55% after 24 hours, but that while it goes down, the TSH remains the same. So that's similar to one of the studies we read before and not the other. They also found that short-term, four-week and long-term more than six months ADF diets, alternative fasting diets also seem to reduce circulating T3 without changing TSH. And that was also found as well for a study in an eight-hour time-restricted eating window. So again, T3 going down, TSH not changing. And they did suggest that if people are on thyroid medication, which I want to talk about another study that talks about that, they might need to really monitor their medication because of how their TSH might change. What's interesting about that, because I actually read the study that it was referencing, and that study was called effect of Ramadan fasting on thyroid functions and hypothyroid patients taking levothyroxine, a systemic review of meta-analysis. So this is people who are doing Ramadan fasting and they're on thyroid medication, which everything, all the other studies that I was talking about were presumably people not on thyroid medication. It was just fasting. They found for these patients that there was no change in free T4, but the TSH did go up for those taking medication specifically, but it didn't go out of range. So their takeaway was that there might be something, you might need to pay a little bit more attention if you're on thyroid medication while fasting because of how it might affect the TSH and you might need to change your dosage. Although I just, I don't know, I don't know if I agree with that because I would definitely work with a doctor and get a full panel. I just find it interesting that if your TSH is changing, but your actual levels aren't changing, I don't know if I would personally adjust the medication if the levels aren't changing. This is something where I'm not a doctor. I would really suggest that people work with a knowledgeable practitioner who runs a full thyroid panel to monitor your thyroid. A full thyroid panel is going to include TSH, T4, free T4, T3, free T3, and possibly reverse T3, which is a hormone that can actually block T3. So you can have active T3, like active thyroid hormones, but if you have high reverse T3, it can actually be blocking that action. So that can explain seemingly hypothyroid symptoms with normal T3 levels, for example. So my takeaway from all of those studies looking at fasting's effects on the thyroid function was that some of the studies find that the TSH changes, but the thyroid hormones don't. Some of the studies find that the thyroid hormones change, but the TSH doesn't. And some of them find that they both go down a little bit, but multiple studies did note that TSH or the thyroid hormones going down, if there's no actual problematic change with the thyroid itself, that that is linked to longevity. So I'm going to talk about Hashimoto's, but basically my thought on that aspect is none of these studies found, none of these studies that I looked at found that fasting created a really problematic state for the thyroid. So I think it's really wise to monitor thyroid status, especially if it's something that you struggle with historically while fasting, but I definitely wouldn't be overwhelmingly concerned. That said, there's a difference between fasting while eating and nourishing diet with plenty of protein and over fasting and over restricting what you're eating and just, you know, doing too much. And I think that's a completely different scenario. So that's not what I'm speaking to. As for Hashimoto's, so there was one study called intermittent fasting, a promising dietary intervention for autoimmune diseases that is a September, 2023 study. It talked about how intermittent fasting can have beneficial effects on various autoimmune diseases. And the reason I'm talking about this, because as mentioned, Hashimoto's is an autoimmune condition. It did note however, and it gave a lot of mechanisms for why that might be. And we actually talked about this on a recent episode. So I will put a link to that episode in the show notes where we did a deep dive into intermittent fasting for autoimmune conditions, but they did note that the majority of those diseases that our studies have shown fasting is helpful for are things like diabetes and arthritis. And some of those mechanisms are improving the gut microbiome, enhancing cellular repair mechanisms through autophagy. They said that more studies are needed, that they're limited and conclusive on thyroid diseases in particular. That said, there's a lot of reasons that fasting could potentially have a, there's a lot of mechanistic reasons for how fasting could potentially have a beneficial effect on Hashimoto's just by reducing inflammation in your body in general. So I just mentioned it briefly, but the fasting can have a really beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. And there's a lot of studies showing connections between the gut microbiome and your thyroid and oxidative stress. So free radicals can cause a lot of damage in the body and are really linked to autoimmune conditions. The fasting has been shown to reduce that. Lowering inflammatory biomarkers in general. So people with autoimmune issues tend to have high levels of inflammatory biomarkers. And we have studies showing that fasting can reduce these biomarkers indicating inflammation in the body. So my thoughts on this, I think from just a autoimmune perspective for Hashimoto's, I think fasting could probably be very beneficial for that aspect. And then for the actual thyroid functioning issue, like I said, the study, the literature seems to indicate that you might see a slight drop in T3, maybe a little bit of change in your TSH. But in general, that's probably a good thing, probably linked to longevity. All of that said, definitely work with a doctor, definitely make sure you're not over restricting. That's all my thoughts. Do you have thoughts on thyroid stuff, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
That was so comprehensive and amazing. I mean, you went through all the different, you know, labs and hormones and then all the studies a few of them I had looked at as well and thought it was interesting that there were some different findings. The one that I found the most interesting was a review that talked about how T3 levels can drop quite a bit in the first 24 hours of fasting, but they tend to normalize afterwards. So sometimes there may be like a large drop initially, but it might not be something that will last. A lot of the studies also talked about how the levels usually go back to what they were right after people stop fasting, but I completely agree with you. It's definitely something to consult with your practitioner care provider about, especially because there are complications like medication levels and things that might be affected and might change. So thank you for doing that amazing summary on all of the research out there.

Melanie Avalon:
No, of course. And thank you because I totally saw that as well and I completely forgot. So I'm so glad you you saw that. That's perfect. Yeah, I did see that about the T3. It seems to rebound pretty quickly right after. So I've been haunted for quite a while by the the metabolism, body temperature, thyroid levels and longevity question. It bothers me because on the one hand, you know, there's people, you know, it kind of I guess it relates to calorie restriction as well with with longevity because, you know, we know and we talked about this actually last episode, but calorie restriction in general has been the one dietary intervention to really show a boost in longevity across lifespans. And it does seem to have a, you know, reduced body temperature, probably reduced metabolism. And so there's this whole like question of, you know, where should the metabolism actually land for the ultimate both longevity and health span as well. So it's really intriguing to me. Shall we do another question? Yes, sounds great. Okay, so this is a question for Vanessa. Rachel wants to know, she says, I would love to hear Vanessa's take on breastfeeding and if/keto and you are breastfeeding currently correct.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm hoping to also get to two years. I did with Luca. So I did breastfeed with Luca successfully doing intermittent fasting and keto, although my approach with keto is modified keto. So I do high protein keto, not the traditional ketogenic approach, which is, you know, restricted, moderated protein. I eat closer to one gram of pound, one gram of protein per pound of body weight, or 2 .2 grams per kilogram per day. And so for some people, this would kick them out of ketosis. I tend to get back into ketosis with the intermittent fasting. And the fact that I also do a lot of activity and movement breastfeeding probably adds to it as well, because the calorie burn, I think breastfeeding for me, I felt way hungrier than I ever did when I was pregnant. And I've heard a lot of women tell me this. Yeah, like you, it's just, it's amazing because you're like growing a baby, you think you would be ravenous, but some people actually have no appetite or even get nauseous, you know, in, in really, really challenging situations, like with hyper amesis, you know, being nauseous, like every day, all day, no matter what you eat, or if you don't eat, it's just horrible. I can't imagine how difficult that is. I really don't like being nauseous. I didn't have any nausea during either of my pregnancies. I'm so, so thankful for cause I just am such a baby when it comes to nausea. I did that, but I was also doing intermittent fasting and high protein keto during our conception period, during pregnancy during. So for me, it wasn't like a big change. So I think the question comes up a lot where people, you know, have been doing a different approach and then postpartum, they're, they're like, maybe I should, you know, start intermittent fasting/keto or get back into it. And so I would say for me, I waited at least six months to make any changes because if you make changes like intermittent fasting or keto, you might go lower in calories that could definitely affect supply. I don't think lack of carb affects supply as much as people think it does. Personally, I think it's more related to calories. And if you're eating enough calories to sustain what your body needs, plus breastfeeding, I don't think it really matters whether or not you're eating any carbs, your body makes carbs, it makes glucose with gluconeogenesis. It's more about how much energy you're taking in. And it doesn't really matter if you're getting the energy from carbs, all carbs, or no carbs or all fat or some fat or a mix of both with protein, because you can also oxidize some of that as well for fuel. So I just waited until about six months to make any changes, because that's when Damien started eating solid foods. So if anything affected my supply at that point. then I would be, it would be okay because he would be eating solid foods at that point. My supply was not affected by the changes that I made. And for me, I started adding in more carbs and eating a little bit less fat. So I started playing up with my macros a little bit and then changing up meal timing and stuff. So that's what I did in terms of changes and also doing more exercise, doing more movement, more workouts, just to feel a little bit more like my pre baby, even though pre baby self, even though like I've mentioned before, I didn't gain weight during my second pregnancy, but I just felt like my body composition was a little bit different. So I think, you know, something you can talk about, you know, with your doula or someone you, you know, work with in terms of, of how you're doing with your recovery as well. You know, how you're feeling energetically, just because the, the concern is that with intermittent fasting, keto, you might under fuel. And I think that's one of the big risks with breastfeeding or not risks, but the times in people's lives when they can under fuel, because you don't realize how many calories you need when you're breastfeeding. Like I had a friend, Caitlin grass fed girl, she told me she was waking up in the night and having to eat when she was breastfeeding. She was so ravenous. It's the, yeah, by far the hungriest I felt was when I, I started breastfeeding both times with, with Luca and with Damien. So it's really a time when you can under fuel, like I keep mentioning. So yeah, that's the, those are some of my thoughts on it. And I've done research on supply and carb content. You know, it's definitely something that people can play around with, but it does change the milk composition somewhat. But in general, I think supply is really much more tied to actual calories than, than carb or fat, if that makes sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, it totally does. I have no comments. I know nothing about this. So thank you for sharing your experience.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, thank you for the question. It's always fun to talk about this stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
So, like, when you stop breastfeeding, do your hunger levels return to normal pretty quickly or do you remember from your last time around?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it's just like, I don't feel as hungry now as I did like eight months ago, Damien's... Well, when this podcast comes out, he's going to be about 10 months, but right now he's about eight months and he... I am not as hungry as I was like when I started breastfeeding. It's always like at first, there's like a big adjustment. And I think because the body is recovering so much as well, you just... Also, you don't eat a lot during like the days leading up to the birth. There's usually other things happening. So you get like really, really hungry usually, right when it starts and your milk comes in, but it does tend to level up. After a while, like I don't feel ravenous all the time, but there may be some connection there to why I've been playing around with more meals, adding in a third meal, which sadly... So I've been playing around with oatmeal and protein. And I've been doing that as a first, first meal to do three meals a day. And I think I'm having some kind of reaction to the oatmeal because of my gluten sensitivity. So I think I've actually... I had to cut it out the last three days because it wasn't spiking my blood sugar at all. My other meals, like my yogurt meal, spikes my blood sugar more than oatmeal. And I always avoided oatmeal because I thought it would really spike my blood sugar, but it raises it about as much as coffee does, which is not that much. So I was kind of enjoying trying something different and doing... Like I put my protein powder in the oatmeal and having that in the morning with the kids, but I'm getting like a lot of muscle stiffness, which I never normally have. I was reading that there's a protein in oatmeal called like Avenin or Avenin, Avenin maybe. And it's similar to gluten. I read some blogs and they said, you can try just pure gluten-free oats because sometimes there's cross-contamination that could be causing it. So I got some gluten-free oats and some sprouted oats. And I'm taking maybe like a week or two off now to see if that's the connection. So I'm actually hoping that's what it is because I never have any muscle soreness. And yeah, I don't like having muscle pain. So I'm like, I don't think it's my workouts. I think it could just be this. And it's funny when you eat the same things all the time. Like you can tell if you try something new and your body reacts in a certain way, you can pretty much pinpoint it right away. Anyway, that's off topic.

Melanie Avalon:
No, I love it. Honestly, one of the more mind-blowing experiences at paradigm shifts is, you know, if you've been eating just, you know, whatever, like our standard American diet, and then you do clean up your diet, that it's fascinating in a way how you can tell how things affect you. I just remember thinking like, wow, I can't believe I was eating this stuff all the time. And I didn't realize, but it was just being in a state of chronic inflammation versus removing that inflammation, and then you can actually notice it from what you're reacting to. So thanks for taking one for the team with the child bearing. I'm so grateful to women like you for, you know, raising awesome kids.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks, it's yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. We love it so much.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome. All right, shall we answer Jan's question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I will read it. So Jan says, I believe that food is a source of good health. What we eat truly makes a difference. However, if you watch YouTube and listen to podcasts, you will hear a dozen different opinions on what we should eat. I think we can all agree that ultra-processed foods are bad for you. But beyond that, what? If you listen to Dr. Berry and many others, you know they believe eating carnivore is the proper human diet. But if you listen to Dr. Barnard and many others, you know they believe eating whole foods plant-based is the only way you should eat. Yet many others believe keto is best. Some say intermittent fast every day. Some say don't intermittent fast, it's bad for you. Also oil, again, we can agree that seed oils are probably bad for us. What about olive oil? Some say olive oil is great for you. Some say olive oil should not be eaten. And what about protein? Who decided that women should have 30 grams of protein per meal or at least 100 grams a day? Did they just pull this number out of the air? Where did they come up with this number and how did they know? So who do we believe and what do we eat for optimal health?

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm having a moment, okay, because the way you pronounced it, now I'm just wondering, Doctor, I've always said Neil Barnard, and I'm just, the reason I'm like fixating is when I interviewed him, I'm like, did I say his name wrong? How did you say it, Barnard?

Vanessa Spina:
I was just reading it. I don't know this person, so Barnard. I just said Barnard because I'm reading it.

Melanie Avalon:
I really hope it's Bernard, because that's how I introduced him. I'm like, Oh, no, I'm like, gonna go listen after this and try to find a

Vanessa Spina:
podcasts where he introduces himself and then you'll know.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh my goodness. Have you had that before where you have guests on and you can't find and like you can't find how to pronounce their name correctly? Or like I

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had one, oh, Dr. John Jake Wish. He told me right before we started, he's like, you're going to say my name wrong. Write it down right now in front of you on a pad of paper. It's Jake Wish, like Jake had a wish. So I wrote it down and I was like, well, this is a lot. And then I started saying it and I was going to say Jack Wish. So I looked down and I was like, Jake Wish, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
That sounds like something he would say.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, totally. And I'm so glad he told me because I was going to say Jake Wish.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so funny. I love that. Normally I'll ask like if they're not somebody super well known, I'll just ask them at the beginning how how to pronounce their name. But sometimes if it's somebody that I, you know, I should know then because I remember I remember I like Louise from key to gains visa nor. How do you say his last name? Villas in your okay. See, I literally I went down the rabbit hole. I was like listening to every podcast I could find and like everybody was saying it differently. I was like, I don't I can't I can't do this. And so then I think it before I was like, I am so sorry. Like I know who you are. I just I don't. How do you say your name? So okay, on that note, I love this question from Dan, I feel like it really captures the just the frustration and angst of one of the biggest issues we have today, which is so many opinions about what to eat and it can be very overwhelming and I feel you and it's honestly a big reason that I have my other show the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast is because there's so many opinions and I've been seeking for so long. I've been haunted by this idea. I'm like, I want to follow the perfect diet. Well, spoiler. There's not a perfect diet. I don't think but a big reason I have that other show is because I just wanted to interview people of all different perspectives because you know, I just want to know and there are I Jan, you pointed out so many good examples of how there are completely different opinions on things, you know, all the carnivore people versus the vegan people and intermittent fasting and the seed oils and olive oil and olive oil is a good example because I feel like it's highly touted and it's like one of the ones that kind of and it infiltrates all sides with all sides having both opinions about it, which is super confusing. So like at least with like meat versus plants. It's like, okay, one side is like all meat and one side is all plants like olive oil. It's like this wonder food and like, you know, Dr. Gundry loves it. He's big in the cuto world and a lot of vegan people love it. But then you have like the low fat vegan to like avoid the oils and you'll read like when I read Marian Nestle's book. She has a lot of books about food politics that completely blew my mind about olive oil and the industry behind it and all the like olive oil funded galas where they invite doctors and it's all funded by all of oil companies and it's just, it's very confusing. What I would say is, and you mentioned this in the beginning of your question when you said we can all agree that ultra processed foods are bad for you. Even that there are people who will not agree like the repeat people. They actually love like refined sugar. So go figure. I think if you step back and just look historically, what were we eating? You can see that there's a commonality. And you mentioned it with ultra processed foods, but just focusing on real whole foods that we can eat that we don't react to Vanessa was talking about her experience with gluten sensitivities and things like that. That's a really great start and you can focus on what is the most nutritious thing I can put in my body that's in a whole foods form and try not to stress as much about all the opinions about it. Basically, I think we can be more intuitive than we give ourselves credit for if we're eating real whole foods. So like carnivore versus vegan, some people thrive on vegan. I do think it's less than the vegan culture makes it seem like. They'll make it seem like vegans the answer for everybody all the time. And I think most people I do think I can say this pretty, pretty confidently. It seems like a lot of people, if not most people who do vegan, it's not sustainable long term. And they do need to end up bringing in some sort of animal foods with carnivore similar story. A lot of people thrive on carnivore and do it long term. I think I don't know. I don't know if it's a most thing because maybe that's a more niche group of people. But I think a lot of carnivore people do end up bringing back some sort of plants back into the diet. So the body knows what it needs nutrition wise. If we listen to it, I think we can see all of this information that we received from all these different sources as helpful. It's kind of like when I interviewed Max Lugavere and I remember I asked him what his thoughts were because I think at that time I was also interviewing Michael Greger. And he pointed out, because Max is a big proponent of the importance of animal foods for brain health. And so I asked him his thoughts on Michael Greger, who's like very, very, very vegan. And he pointed out that he thinks one of the strengths of Dr. Greger is how he really draws attention to all these really wonderful health benefits of different plants. So maybe a reframe here is rather than thinking, oh, I can't eat this, this is bad. What are these different sides saying are foods that are very good and nourishing for us? And then what from that plate of foods makes you feel good? I'm just really about listening to your body. And this is a very simple statement, but I really think it is telling if there was one magical diet, I really think we would have found it by now. And it would work for everybody. So I think these blanket statements that everybody needs to be doing carnivore all the time, or everybody needs to be eating just plants all the time. I just fact checking that that seems a little bit difficult to make as a true absolute statement because it's not working for people all the time. And you could say maybe they're not actually doing it right. And but I don't know, I just think I think if there was one diet, we would have found it by now. I think we can all agree mostly that ultra processed foods are a major problem here. And just going back to the whole foods is a really, really great place to start. Like seed oils, for example, there's, yes, there's a lot of evidence that seed oils are highly problematic and inflammatory, especially when they're refined and high heat process. And so seed oils are things like canola, cotton seed, corn, soft flour, sesame, and sunflower. There's like three C's and three S's that you can remember. But even with that, people will add like, you know, whole pressed seed oils to their salad and you know, think it's maybe it is maybe it is great for them. That's another example where I just like to go back to what is the natural form? Like, can you go up for seed oil? Can you go up and eat seed oil from nature? Actually no, you have to have to like, get all these seeds and it's a very labor intensive process to extract the oil from those seeds compared to olive oil, which is a little bit easier with just pressing the olives and getting the oil out of it. So I think just taking a step back, trying to not have too much fear surrounding things and choosing the foods that will, that feel good in your body, I think that's the way to support optimal health. Would you like to talk about that/the protein, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Sure, yeah, and I didn't know there was controversy around olive oil. I thought we all agreed it was amazing, full of polyphenols, but just shouldn't be heated.

Melanie Avalon:
So I think the controversy that would come in would be, maybe it's more about, it's a few things, probably three things I'm thinking of. One, reading food politics by Marianne Nessel, and then also Nina Teichels talks about it as well in her book, The Big Fat Surprise. It just makes you a little bit, kind of like we were talking at the beginning of the show about breakfast is the most important meal of the day. When you realize the exuberant amount of funding and the olive oil industry, it just makes you a little bit suspicious of things. Beyond that, I think there's a lot of issues with olive oil fraud. Like it's so bad. Then you mentioned that a little bit, but like it's really bad to the point where I get just, you really, really want to bet the olive oil that you are, that you're having a lot of the olive oils on the shelf are actually cut with other oils. So they're not completely olive oil. And then there can also be the issue of things going rancid or cooking temperature creating issues. I think the third thing is, I just think there's some people will say like, pour olive oil on everything. I think Gundry is famous for... Yeah, I was thinking of him. He's like having it by the leader. He's taking shots of it. So there's that side. And then on the flip side, there's like the low fat approach. And people will say, don't add all these oils. Yeah. So I guess it's not like super controversial, but there's definitely different opinions on it. And it's just weird that it can be this magical thing that's like you just take shots of compared to some people saying minimize.

Vanessa Spina:
I wouldn't take shots of it, but I do, like if I'm going to make a salad dressing, I use olive oil. If I'm going to make something like a marinade, I usually use olive oil. I think it's amazing and yeah, has a lot of polyphenols in it, but I just make sure to get it in protected glass and make sure I'm sourcing it really well. But I think it is, like you said, I mean, we go to Greece a lot and they make it there just from the olive trees, like fresh olive, fresh pressed olive oil, and it's been consumed for so many years, for thousands of years by, especially in the Mediterranean, which has a lot of centenarians and all that. But with the protein, I love this question. So the 30 grams of protein per meal, or at least 100 grams a day, this is not out of the air. This is actually research done specifically in the lab of Dr. Don Lehman, and Dr. Don Lehman was the mentor of Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, who worked in his lab for a time. So what Dr. Don Lehman discovered is that your body switches on this process of making new muscle called muscle protein synthesis when you eat a certain amount of protein because whole proteins contain, well, several or three branched chain amino acids. One of them is leucine, and when your body detects that the level of leucine rises in your blood to about three grams, that initiates this cascade of muscle protein synthesis. So if you don't eat three grams, if you don't hit three grams, you're not going to fully initiate muscle protein synthesis. And that's why 30 grams is a recommended minimum at a meal. And if you're going to spread your protein out throughout the day, you just don't want to spread it out in a way that's like, I had 15 for breakfast, and then 25 for lunch, and then like 45 grams at dinner. You're only really triggering muscle protein synthesis with your dinner meal. And I see this all over the place, especially with sort of the older generation, the generation above mine, because people are afraid of eating meat, afraid of cholesterol, afraid of proteins effect on the kidneys, which has all been debunked. And so people tend to minimize their consumption of animal protein, especially. And so a lot of times at their meals, they're getting like 15 grams of protein, 20 grams of protein, if they're lucky, and not getting the full 30 grams. So the 30 grams is really important, whether you have one meal or three or four meals, make sure to get 30 grams minimum, especially, especially the first meal of the day, whenever you're breaking your fast, whether it's in the morning, midday, or at night, that is critically important. And if you have maybe a lunch, say if you have three meals a day, you have a lunch that has a little bit less protein in it, you might be okay because you're still triggered muscle protein synthesis. But then dinner, you really want to bookend it with the 30 grams, but ideally 30 grams minimum at every single meal. When it comes to at least 100 grams a day, that's just because, you know, if you do three meals of 30 grams each time, that's around 90 grams, like give or take up to 100, 100 is a good ballpark for a lot of women to shoot for, especially when they're getting started with eating higher protein. So it's definitely not out of thin air. It has a lot of science behind it. And it is really important for halting muscle protein breakdown, which is that antagonistic process that's happening all the time is our muscle protein breakdown rates are, you know, increasing as we get older and there's things like anabolic resistance that also, you know, start to get worse as we get older. So it's very important to at least get 30 grams of protein at your meal. And then we talked about some ranges on the last episode, but the science out of doctors to Phillips lab and the numbers I always recommend are 1 .2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. If you're more sedentary, 1 .6 grams per kilogram. If you do some resistance training on your active and then 2 .2 grams or one gram per pound of body weight, if you're an athlete, you're hitting the gym once or twice a day. So that's what you can really take home in terms of what to eat for optimal health when it comes to protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Thank you so much. I knew you were going to have the most perfect answer for that. Thank you. I do. I, the protein question is definitely one that like I get where she's coming from with the question because I've, you know, you read all this stuff about like low protein is correlated to longevity and it's just, it's really confusing. At least there's the one thing I think that everybody agrees on with protein is that, that we do need more when we're older. That seems to be agreed upon by both camps.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I've really changed my thinking recently. We talked about this a little bit, I think last week or the week before, but this whole concept of mTOR, it's really dysregulated mTOR that's bad for us. It's not the mTOR from eating protein or from working out that is bad for us. And so, I'm not really a fan of protein restriction. I think most people really need to lean in more towards the protein and not worry about over consuming it, but be worried about under consuming it, especially after the age of 30, especially after the age of 40.

Melanie Avalon:
I cannot agree more. I think having the mTOR on all the time from eating constantly is a lot different than having an mTOR response from eating a protein meal. It's completely different.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. For me, it's mTOR all the time activated from too much energy being consumed. That really is what signals growth in the body and not the good growth. You want growth of your muscle cells, you don't want growth of your tissues or your fat cells, right? So I think that's what gets mixed up in some research where they misinterpret mTOR as being bad for us and so therefore we need to restrict protein. I think it's getting the message totally wrong. To me, it's mTOR in the context of excess energy, eating more energy than your body burns off every day, being in a caloric surplus, exactly what you said, eating all the time, not taking breaks. Whereas the mTOR that's being initiated from you building muscle or getting enough protein to initiate muscle protein synthesis, we don't want to avoid that at all. That's what's going to make us strong and lean and fit and able to, you know, be harder.

Melanie Avalon:
to kill. Yeah, it's so different. Similar to like insulin. Like we need insulin as well. It's just having insulin all the time. That's the issue.

Vanessa Spina:
Insulin's gotten such a bad rap and it does so many amazing things for us.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it's very, very important, so. Yep, but great question, Jan. Thank you so much. And to all the listeners as well. And if you have your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com, or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. Today's show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode393. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are @Ifpodcast, I am @MelanieAvalon, and Vanessa is @KetogenicGirl. All righty, I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a blast. I love all the great questions and it was so much fun. I can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I had so, so much fun.

Vanessa Spina:
I will talk to you next week.

Melanie Avalon:

Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.  Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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