Episode 350: NMN, NAD Patches, Finding Your Fasting Pattern, Excess Protein, Overeating, New Years Resolutions, And More!
Welcome to Episode 350 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.
Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:
LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!
To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!
SHOW NOTES
Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!
LMNT: The LMNT Chocolate Medley is available for a limited time! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!
Go to www.melanieavalon.com/ionlayer to get $100 off NAD patches with the code MELANIEAVALON!
TONE PROTEIN: Introducing Tone Protein! Finally, a clean, sugar free and high quality whey protein isolate by Vanessa Spina and MD Logic. Scientifically formulated to optimize building and protecting muscle, supporting the metabolic rate and getting lean and toned in the most efficient way! Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #227 - Dan Levitt
Listener Q&A: Jeff - Early is better?
Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.
TRANSCRIPT
(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)
Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 350 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.
Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 350 of the Intermittent Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. And Vanessa, 350. Is that a milestone? Should we have made this some sort of episode? Like a special episode?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think I've ever done that for 350. I remember doing it for like 100 and then maybe the hundred, every increment of 100. I just had 500 on mine and I celebrated that.
Melanie Avalon:
500? Whoa.
Vanessa Spina:
But 50 in between? I don't know, like, maybe 400 or 500 would be. We can do something big for them.
Melanie Avalon:
400?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Wow. 500. Congratulations. That's a long time podcasting.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, I didn't even actually do much for it, and then my brother texted me and he was like, oh, my gosh, congrats on 500 episodes. I was like, oh, that's so sweet.
Melanie Avalon:
Wow. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
350 is a nice number, though. It's great.
Melanie Avalon:
What was your first podcast experience, like, episode?
Vanessa Spina:
So I actually did it with my best friend Jess's brother, and we sat down together in Vancouver, and I had all the equipment on the dining table of this airbnb where I was staying, and her Brother Billy came over and we did an episode on hormones and exercise. He's like a personal trainer. It was really fun and it was in person, so we got to sit there and just podcast together. And I was like, oh, that was amazing. And, yeah, it's definitely one of the top downloaded episodes, obviously, because of the first one, but it did really well. That first one did well. And, yeah, I was so excited. What about you?
Melanie Avalon:
Wait, so your first in person, and I've still never done an in person. Did you continue it in person?
Vanessa Spina:
No, I just did that one because I thought it would be a fun way to break the ice. Her brother Billy and I have a really good relationship and great chat. So I was like, this would be a great person to do the first episode with. Just like, not like an expert guest, but someone who's knowledgeable and someone that I flow really well with. So we did a really fun first episode, and I was like, this is going to be amazing. But I had, over the years before that, been invited on other people's podcasts, and every time I would do one, I was like, this is so fun. I love this. I get in the flow. I get in a flow state. I feel amazing. I could do this for hours. I was like, I need to do this. I need to podcast. So I was pretty excited to make the decision.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. I don't think I'd been actually, I might have been on. Oh, I do remember my first podcast, and I was so nervous. And it wasn't even. Not to say anything bad about podcasts, but it was not like a big deal podcast. But I was like, oh, I was so scared. And, wow, that puts things in perspective. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to record in person. How do you feel about, this is so random. When you're trying to find something that you need, how do you feel about the research? A lot. Be really specific. Try to find the perfect thing approach versus the throw it at the wall. Just like reach out to a million different options and kind of just see what manifests approach.
Vanessa Spina:
I think it depends on the thing, but I usually like to do both. I like to research, especially if it's something I'm not super knowledgeable on, so that I have lots of information. But I'm also a big fan of experimentation, so I think that's the best way to figure out the optimal way of doing something, trying different approaches. I'm such a big fan of experimentation when it comes to lifestyle, diet, nutrition, everything. So I like combining both.
Melanie Avalon:
I like that. Okay. Yeah. I thought about it for two reasons. One, I recently aired an episode. I think I mentioned it. Did I mention this last time? Dr. Jennifer Gutman and her beyond Happiness book and how she talks about how all decisions are guesses?
Vanessa Spina:
Yes, you mentioned it because we had a question related to that.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. That's right. I feel like I did this two nights ago because I'm still trying to find somebody in Austin when I go record with Dave Asprey in person to do the tech aspect because I was like, I need to research and find the person and make this a thing. And then I was like, I just can't do this. So I literally just wrote an email asking for what I wanted. And then I googled Austin podcast studios and then I literally just clicked the first dozen links. These are for in person podcast studios. And I just sent it to them asking if they could come help me remotely, which is like, not a service that any of these people, but. And I was like, whoever answers, I'll.
Vanessa Spina:
Just be like, yes, that's a great idea.
Melanie Avalon:
And then we'll be done. I'm not even going to think about it. Just like the first person that says I can do it, I'll be like, okay, come with me. This could go really bad, but that's fine. Point being of that is I think I used to be neurotic about all decisions and over researching and finding the perfect thing, and now I'm just to the point sometimes where it's like, you know what? Whatever works. Whatever works. We're just going to go with it.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, well, you've been doing this for so long and we talked about before you doing like a dress rehearsal with your sister.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that.
Vanessa Spina:
It really works. See that?
Melanie Avalon:
But that would be putting in all the, all the energy where I'm kind of like, it would. I think I'm just going to not just show up because there's a lot of orchestration, but there's just like so much in life. Wow, this was a tangent. I did not mean to go down. I did want to share a resource really quick with listeners. So I've talked a lot about both NAD and NMN. So, long story short, NAD is basically a master metabolic coenzyme in the body. It's involved in all of your living cells, all energy production, everything that you do. It's more complicated than that. It's actually like a NAD NADH ratio. But regardless, declines in NAD are associated with aging and disease, and a lot of people focus on boosting their NAD levels. And so I've talked about this a lot. I take an NMN supplement nightly, even though it's confusing right now because the FDA is being weird about it. So it can be a little bit hard to get. I've also been doing NAD infusions. I did those for about, I don't know, maybe six to eight months. I was doing them every week. Have you done those, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
No.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. So I like them. They're just very expensive. Very expensive, and they do not make me feel good in the moment. Like, they make me feel bad. So I'm like, this is a lot of money to pay to feel pretty bad for, like, a little bit. So those are the injections. There's also ivs, which are even more expensive, and I have not done one of those because I was like, there's no way I'm going to pay that much to feel this bad for a few hours compared to the injection, which. So it's an intramuscular injection. It lasts for, like, ten minutes, so I don't feel that well. In any case, a brand reached out to me called Ion layer, and they make NAD patches, and I am so excited because they're way more affordable than the injections and the IVs, and they have data showing that they do clinically boost NAD levels. And it's just so easy to do. Like, they send you the patches and then the Ned and some saline and some water, and it's like a whole process, but it's easy once you learn how to do it. And you basically activate the NAD and then you wear the patch. And it's kind of like for listeners who wear continuous glucose monitors, it doesn't stick anything into your skin, but it sticks on your skin, and then you put a cover over it that's kind of like those CGM covers. I'm obsessed. I have replaced doing the injections with these patches, so I'm doing these patches once a week, and I'm doing them because I tend to go out on Friday or Saturday, so I wear them after the next day after going out to boost my NAD from my activities. So I actually have an incredible code for listeners. Like, incredible. So you can actually get $100 off your first kit, which is crazy. So $100 off with the code, MELANIEAVALON. So for that, I'll make a link. So if you go to melanieavalon.com/ionlayer, that will take you there, and you can use that code, Melanie Avalon, for $100 off. So again, I highly recommend it. I'm going to implement this into my life and use it every week. They last for 14 hours. Okay, that's my update. Anything from you, Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
I just finished having the latest protein shake with the latest version of tone protein, and it tasted great. It's really interesting. It's been taking a little bit longer than we anticipated to get the flavor right. And it turns out, because tone protein has added leucine in it. Leucine is a super bitter amino acid, so we've been trying different formulations. I think I also shared on the podcast how the tone protein samples that I had were making the tone device go crazy. And it was because there was actually alcohol in the vanilla, so we had to get rid of that, get another natural vanilla.
Melanie Avalon:
That still blows my mind. That really blows my mind that it lasted that long.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Are you sure? Yeah. I know you're sure.
Vanessa Spina:
I know. And the funny thing is, I was thinking, too, because I have tamari a lot with different meals I make, because I make a lot of low carb, like, asian food. And I was like, I use tamari, and there's a tiny bit of alcohol in there, but it doesn't seem to affect the tone device. But if I have cabbage, then the tone will blow, like, as much as if I had a glass of wine because of this raphano sugar in there. So there's certain things that it really does affect. But with that sample, as soon as I figured it out, it made so much sense, and it was very clear that that was the only thing. There was three days that week that it happened, and the only thing I changed was having that sample of tone protein. But then when I was talking to Scott a little bit more, he said that the vanilla also had some quote unquote natural sugars in it. And I was like, squeeze me. What? I was like, what do you mean, natural sugars? So apparently there were these natural sugars in, and I was like, this is like a non negotiable for me, like, no sugars. I don't want any alcohol in it. And as you like, Scott understands that particularness, know, festival or whatever you want to call it when it comes to supplements. So he was like, totally get it. Totally get you. Let's fix it. So I just got the new samples, like, 3 hours ago, and I just made my regular shake with almond milk and ice and tone protein. And so this version has something called a bitter blocker added into it, and I'm trying to keep it with as minimal ingredients as possible, but leucine is that bitter. That the bitter blocker actually made a huge difference. So I just was, like, having the last bites of it as we started chatting tonight, and it was great. So I think we have our winner. There's three other versions that he sent me as well, and some of them have some gums, like organic gums, like xanthum gum. Scott says there's all these health benefits. I was like, can we do it without the gums? He's like, there's really a lot of health benefits to them. Then finally, I said, can we do one without the gums? But instead, he decided to put collagen in. So I think that is going to help with the overall flavor profile and the bitter blocker. So nothing wrong with having some collagen in there. And, yeah, I'm excited because I think we finally have our winner. But it's crazy how long it takes with flavors, because when you have a supplement that's encapsulated, you don't have to worry about the way it tastes. Right? But when it's a supplement that's also a food, like protein powder, it's also got to taste great and not have weird aftertaste or not have alcohol in it. That's going to mess with my tone device and all my community members that love to use the tone, I don't want them to be having weird results. So, yeah, I'm excited because it tasted really good. So I think we're going to be able to launch really soon.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, that is very exciting. I know what you mean about the flavor taste stuff, because right now, working on the spirit, Lena, that's something where you taste it and it's like a whole nother ballpark of the sensory experience to address. Congratulations. It's exciting.
Vanessa Spina:
I just have to swallow the spirulina. Like the spirulina and the chlorella. I just have to swallow it because I don't like the taste of any of those kind of green things.
Melanie Avalon:
I can't wait for your final manifestation.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. Yeah, it's just so funny that I just happened to be eating it, like, right as we started and we were chatting.
Melanie Avalon:
People are going to be so excited to finally get it.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, me too. Me too.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, by the time this comes out, this comes out January 1. Vanessa, we forgot.
Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year. That's what we should be celebrating.
Melanie Avalon:
We forgot to start looking at the date. Okay. Mental note. Melanie, look at the date. Okay. And now it's, like, too late. We're like, I have an idea. Let's talk about intermittent fasting and the new year.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, let's take a.
Melanie Avalon:
What's the. Like, we're on a train, and we're going to go down a different track. Or Disney. Wait, before that. How can people get all over the place? How can people get on the email list or get your tone protein and. Or find out information about it?
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes.
Vanessa Spina:
If you would like to be updated when it's going to be out. That's at Toneprotein.com. And if you sign up with your name and email address, you'll be added to the list. And it's the exclusive launch discount list, so it'll be the biggest discount we ever offer on tone protein. So that's at toneprotein.com. And thanks for asking.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, of course. I'm so excited for you. I know it's been a long journey with you getting this formulation, so it's really exciting for the final version to come. And I know it's going to be the very best of the best.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much. Okay.
Melanie Avalon:
January 1. This is a question that must be asked of you, because I don't think we've had this conversation. Do you make New Year's resolutions?
Vanessa Spina:
I knew that was coming. I feel like it's always a blank slate. It's always an opportunity to set goals. But I'm not a big resolution person. I like to just be sort of setting goals all throughout the year and always trying to make sure that I always have something that I'm moving towards, something that I'm excited about, something that I'm just a goal oriented person. So resolutions are not really like, it feels more forced. I don't know. What about you?
Melanie Avalon:
I'm the exact same way. My life is driven by goals. It's exhausting in a good way. So I don't ever really have the need for a date with a specific goal because I would just have done that anyways. There's not any goal. If there was a goal I wanted, I would have already made it. It would be hard for me to think of something to do because I'm probably already actively pursuing it. How do you feel about. We have talked about this in past shows on New Year's, the pretty shocking statistics about how long diet resolutions last. How do you feel about New Year's goals? And is it a good time to try a new fasting window or a diet goal or something like that?
Vanessa Spina:
I do like it. I do think it's a good time to reset. A lot of people also like September for that. But it's really interesting because this is so pervasive. And if you work in health and wellness and fitness, then you know how seasonal it is. And there is this trend. Like, you can look it up even if you just look on Google trends, like see what people are searching. But if you work in health and fitness, if you work, especially helping people to improve their body composition, lose fat and build muscle, it's crazy what a high there is in January for wellness. People are super interested in wellness. And I like that. I like that people have that feeling of like, it's a new year, it's a blank slate. I'm going to be at my most fit ever, or I'm going to try this or try that. That they get this renewed sense of energy and desire and focus. I really like that. It's like, take that ride, that wave, use it to your advantage. The same way that women every month who are cycling have that first ten days of. Whenever you start a new cycle, you get this superwoman energy. Like, you have this estrogen rising. It's a great time to start a new lifestyle, nutrition plan, new fasting window, whether it's circadian fasting or Omad or whatever it is that you're interested in trying, take advantage. I think of those energetic highs and, yeah, it kicks off in January, really peaks, like January, February, March, April, May, then starts to slow down a little bit. There's a little bit of a summer slowdown, then it picks back up again towards September, and then it goes to the annual low between basically Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas and New Year's events and everything that people have. No one's really thinking anymore about getting fit during that time, unless you're weird like us. But yeah, it's interesting. And I think it's great that people have that reset feeling.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that. I love that so much. It's made me realize something about my life in that I feel like when I was younger, I used to always be sad about January coming because I didn't want the holidays to end. Like, I just loved Christmas so much. And it was like once January came, it's like, well, the sparkle is gone, but now life is just so exciting that I don't feel that way ever. I'm like, bring it on. I'm so excited about everything new. I do remember a statistic about the holiday weight gain that has stuck with me for a long time. And it was basically that people don't gain as much as we think. I'd have to find the study, and it was a while ago that I read it, but it wasn't a ton. Like, it was like a couple of pounds, but they don't tend to lose that. So it's like, people tend to maintain adding that pound or two extra each year. It doesn't go away. So, like, each year, their base point or their baseline is rising, which is concerning. I'm also really fascinated by the idea or the concept. I think about this a lot with cycles, how it feels like it's. I don't know if I can articulate this. It feels like we've been there before, and it feels like we're going in circles, but really, it's all new. That haunts me. I don't know how to articulate this. Like, weeks, like, we think it's Monday again, like, we've been here. We think it's Tuesday again, but really, it's all a new day, every single day. That really stresses me out if I think about it too much.
Vanessa Spina:
Which part stresses you out?
Melanie Avalon:
That we feel like we've been here before, but we haven't. It's literally, like, moving forward on the timeline.
Vanessa Spina:
What weirds me out is when I think about how we have these frameworks, about time and calendars.
Melanie Avalon:
They're not real.
Vanessa Spina:
And they're not real.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, good. You understood what I was saying. Okay. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
Because I'm like, okay. I think of each week as seven days, and I know that it helps me mentally to know that I have five work days and two weekend days with holidays or long weekends or whatever, and that seven days. There's something about it that feels comforting that you have your calendar and you know each week and what your Monday is and everything, but I often think about the fact that it's totally made up and that there is no real thing. But as humans and the way our minds are, we thrive with that framework and having that consistency of the weeks and the calendar. And, I mean, some of it is real, right? Because we do have light cycles of day and night. We do have monthly cycles with the moon, and there's, like, the gregorian calendar and all this stuff. But I feel like this is something you need to get into on your rabbit hole podcast with Scott.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's such a good. So I'm just so happy you knew what I was saying. You articulated it. So we. We come up with this time structure, but it's not like we're like, oh, this is a Monday. This is another Monday. But, no, this is actually a new not. You have not been here before. It's very stressful to make it.
Vanessa Spina:
That's like one of those middle of the night thoughts, like, you wake up and you can't get back to sleep, and you're just like, the calendar isn't real. You're just staring at the ceiling with wide eyes going like, but it's Thursday. But it's not actually. It's just like, yeah, I love that.
Melanie Avalon:
We'Ve had this moment? Oh, my goodness. No. I had a moment, actually, when I was reading, I mentioned interviewing Dan Levitt for his book what's gotten into you? About the history of atoms from the big bang until us. And he had, like, one sentence there that was so casual and such a throwaway, and I fixated on it. He mentioned how planets. Certain planets, rotate on their side or something. And I was like, how do we know what their side is that's not real? Who said where up is or down?
Vanessa Spina:
Well, gravity, I guess.
Melanie Avalon:
But with planets rotating, they're just in. Like.
Vanessa Spina:
It's like, in relation to what I know. And those moments, I think, are important to know. When we were in Greece, we were walking and we all just looked up at the sky and we're telling, like, we live on a planet, and those are the stars, and the planet is going around the. And every time I think about that, I'm just like, what am I even like? We live on a planet that's just. None of it makes sense. But, yeah, it's all just, like, pretty wild.
Melanie Avalon:
Reminds me of probably one of my favorite lines in a Disney movie. Do you know what it is? Based on our conversation, can you guess?
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think that I'll have enough time to guess.
Melanie Avalon:
It's in Lion King, when they're looking at the stars.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, what do they.
Melanie Avalon:
It's. What is it? It's Timon and Pumbaa discussing the stars. Oh, and Simba, he's present. And they're talking about. What are the stars? Simba is talking about how he was told that his dad told him the stars are like the kings of the past. And then Timon kind of talks down to him, and he's like, no, they're fireflies. Like, the stars are fireflies. And then Pumbaa's like. Because when you're little, this just goes over your head. But Pumbaa's like. I always thought they were, know, big balls of gas burning thousands of miles away.
Vanessa Spina:
I remember Pumbaa saying that.
Melanie Avalon:
And when you're a kid, you're like, oh, Pumbaa, you're so silly. But really, it's completely accurate. Yeah, because that's when Timon's like, no, they're fireflies stuck in that big, black sticky. It's so good. So good.
Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to show Luca lion king.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my goodness. Yes. All the Disney stuff. He can wear his. Oh, I wanted you to say it because you texted it to me. So, what does he call the fireman outfit?
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, Finerman. He's like, luca. We put him in the fireman suit, and I was like, I think he's going to like this. No, he loves it. And he wouldn't take it off. And he just kept looking at himself in the mirror. He's like, luca Feynman. Luca Feynman. We were like, yeah, Luca, you're a Feynman. And then he wanted to sleep in it, and he didn't want to take it off. He's got a little fire extinguisher and a little helmet, and he's got a little megaphone or whatever, and it's so cute. He's going to be so excited to wear it for Halloween. And I know it's the new year now. This is going to sound a little dated, but, yeah, Luca got to be a fineman.
Melanie Avalon:
The picture you sent me was, like, the cutest thing ever. I was smiling, so. Oh, treasures. Treasure yet? And maybe when this comes out, you'll have another treasure.
Vanessa Spina:
Hopefully, I definitely will. By that time. By the time this is out. Yeah, I'll be in the baby bubble. The love bubble.
Melanie Avalon:
Crazy. Very exciting. Okay, well, happy New Year's to everybody.
Vanessa Spina:
Yes. Happy new year.
Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Use this time energetically, this made up time, this fake construction, to fuel your life accordingly. I'm excited. Shall we answer some listener questions?
Vanessa Spina:
I would love to.
Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay, so to start things off, this is actually an update question. We got to an email. I'll reread the email that we already answered on the show. And then I thought I would just share the listener's update, because I thought it was. I'll just read it. So, Jeff and I don't know when we answered this originally, but he had written in saying that he listens to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. Oh, that reminds. I'm glad, glad I'm reading this. His team reached out to me about coming on my show. Do you know Dr. Greger?
Vanessa Spina:
That's crazy. He reached out to you.
Melanie Avalon:
I know. What's crazy, too, is, like, he's been on my list of people to reach out to to try to get on the show. The Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast, not the intermittent fasting podcast. So I just need to make a note, because I don't think I heard back from them. Okay. So he says, I listen to Dr. Greger on nutrition facts. He says that eating your calories earlier is better given circadian rhythms. And all of that because of our circadian rhythms, our bodies metabolize calories differently during the day than overnight. So I try and my window is eleven to seven. So 11:00 a.m. To 07:00 p.m.. I snack from 11:00 a.m. Kind of on healthy snacks and then supper time. I pretty much eat what I want, but not too heavy. And then if I stop eating after seven, I know I'll go to bed with a light belly and all is good. Question I have is do you see value in Dr. Gregor's advice and would you consider sharing that with your listeners? So we answered that in an earlier episode and then what I thought was super cool was Jeff wrote in an update because in his original email he was contemplating eating earlier based on this information about circadian rhythm and how we metabolize it better during the day. And then his update he said, melanie, I do agree with your opinion of Dr. Gregor. Now I'm really curious what I said. I did submit that question a few weeks ago and my journey had really only just begun at that point. I've since shifted to a 24 during the week, consuming what is essentially one meal a day. When I get home from work, I snack while preparing supper and I might have an after supper beverage, but that's it. Hunger is not really an issue on weekends. Breakfast is such a ritual that I can't really avoid it. I've been able to delay it a bit and have an eight hour window from ten to six or eleven to seven depending on when I prepare brunch for my kiddos. All that said, eight hour worked short term, but excessive snacking through the day had me shorten it. Big benefit is that I eat no food while out and about during the day. I have way more control waiting until I get home. Ps there is some good analysis of the early versus late debate on the lean gain site. All right, Jeff, so thank you for the update. And what I really, really liked about reading this update is I think it's really telling to show how we can when finding the intermittent fasting pattern that best works for know. On the one hand, we can look at the theories and what people say is best and you should do this or you should do that based on this or know. In this case, with Dr. Gregor talking about eating earlier, and for Jeff, that just doesn't work for like it makes him more hungry. He does more snacking and so he finds for him that a shorter one meal, a daytime window where he's not having that snacking issue and then having the longer window on the weekends when he's having family related things, that that's what works for him and I think a really important takeaway here, and this actually applies to sleep as well, is consistency can really do wonders compared to trying something that you think might be, quote, more perfect and not doing that consistently. So kind of like with sleep, they'll say that there's like an ideal window when you should be getting up, going to bed at this time and getting up at this time. It's been shown pretty evidently that even if you have a non conventional sleep pattern, like maybe you're going to bed later than most people and getting up later, it's more important that you do that and keep it consistent rather than try to force yourself into a different pattern and be inconsistent with it. And so with Jeff, I really love that he found that regardless of what is said about the early eating or not, that this later window works for him. And I think the same could go for any manifestation of intermittent fasting. So I just want to really encourage people when they are trying to find the intermittent fasting pattern that works for them. You have to find what works for you and the thing that helps you with your hunger and if you have inclinations to snack and also the social aspect. So I thought that was a pretty nice update. Do you have thoughts on it? Vanessa?
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree with your point on finding what works for you. I think that's a recurring theme that we have on the podcast. Know, there's a lot of studies out there that show different things, but at the end of the day, you have to experiment and figure out what works for you, even if the studies are there to help point us in the right direction or maybe give us ideas on what to test or what might be beneficial for us or understanding the mechanisms and pathways. But yeah, you really have to tinker and figure out what works for you.
Melanie Avalon:
Do you find, I know we've talked about this before, but if you eat earlier, do you find that it makes you want to snack more, or are you pretty good with closing the window and being done?
Vanessa Spina:
It's the opposite for me, and I've been doing this recently. I'm eating more because I'm in the third trimester of my pregnancy and I'm trying to split up my protein meals. And I don't love it. I feel really full. I don't really want to have dinner. I make myself have dinner anyway, and it's just not what I'm used to. Whereas normally I kind of go through the day more so just feeling really energetic and not feeling the sort of slowdown that you get from all that digestion, and then when I have my main meal, especially dinner, I really enjoy it. Now I'm just like, it's not what I want to be doing, but because of what I know about muscle and protein and what the fact that my body's building another body right now, I have to really stay on top of the protein and eat more meals and eat smaller meals. But I find that the nutrient density, if you eat really nutrient dense, like say a first meal earlier in the day, especially if it's mostly centered around protein, that you will not have blood sugar spikes. And it's when people have blood sugar spikes and then the blood sugar then falls below where it was before. That's when people experience a hunger and fixation on food, which was my experience. Maybe it's not the same for everyone, but when I eat, prioritize protein and healthy fats, which I usually always do for my first meal, I usually only have carbs later in the day. Then I am full for hours. I just don't really think about food, and it usually makes me want to eat less.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. For me, once I start eating, I can just keep eating. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
And I know that a lot of people have that experience. Like Dr. Sean Baker said that, and a lot of people have said how omed is really beneficial for just. Especially if you prefer that not thinking about food. But for me, I think because I do more protein and fat, it's just so nutrient dense that I get so full and I just don't think about food at all. It's more like, I don't want it. It's more an aversion at that point. Like, no, I don't want any more protein. You know what I mean?
Melanie Avalon:
So interesting. I wonder if there are different types of people when it comes to your. I'm guessing there are. Especially reading books surrounding addiction and food addiction, like brightline eating or Glenn Livingston's books. I think some people, food, whatever it is, just lights them. Like, that's the way I am. I was always the type that going to buffets and stuff, growing. Like, I would literally eat until I felt like, nauseous. And even then probably want to keep eating. Whereas some people, I think, just don't. I find it so interesting how the brain, how certain things light up people's brains and not other people's brains. I'm just so fascinated by that. So like what you were just saying about eating the protein and fat and being full, literally, I don't have a memory. I think I can confidently say I do not have a memory of eating a meal and feeling full. I have a memory of that, but of feeling full and being like, okay, I don't want any more food. Like, I always want more food. And this is the way I've been my entire life. And that's why intermittent fasting works for me. Because what my body needs is I need to have my one meal a day, and then I need time. Like, I need to go to bed because I need to get in, like, hours for my body to switch over to the fasted state, and then I'm good. But as long as I'm in that, quote, fed state, I want to just keep eating. And like I said, that's the way I've been my entire life. That's why a one meal day in the evening works so well for me.
Vanessa Spina:
But do you ever say, okay, say I put a plate of six chicken breasts in front of you. Do you feel like you would get through, like, maybe two or three, and then be like, I don't want any more of this?
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no way.
Vanessa Spina:
Like, you just have six, and then you'd still want to have, like, seven. 8910 and six chicken breasts doesn't even sound like that much to me. That makes my stomach hurt to think.
Melanie Avalon:
Say, 20 chicken breasts. That's a better. So, like, 20 chicken breasts. Yeah, no, I would want to keep eating.
Vanessa Spina:
I don't think you could physically eat 20 chicken breasts.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you'd be surprised.
Vanessa Spina:
It's funny, though, because one of the questions that we have actually is about sleep and protein. And I was just thinking today, as I was on my way back home to meet up with you for this, how we are so different when it comes to that, because one of us likes to go to bed with not a super full stomach, but you actually love to go to bed with this full stomach. So, yeah, it's funny how I think there are definitely different types. I don't know what you'd classify them as, but most people, I got to say, maybe you're a bit of a unicorn. Most people can eat 20 chicken breasts. And that's why I always say the steakhouses give you the steak for free if you can eat the 20oz or whatever, because they know most people just get to a point where their body's like, I can't store these amino acids, so we have to stop. And that's my favorite thing about protein. But I think it was Amy Berger was telling me once, maybe on a podcast, how she also felt that way about protein, that she didn't find it to be that. I know. I'm sure there's probably listeners out there who feel the same way.
Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is so interesting one. I find it interesting. At those restaurants, normally they make you eat it in the context of, well, I feel like oftentimes you have to eat it with like a side or something, or like the burger ones. You have to eat it with the bun and things like that. When I see those now, I'm like, I could do that. If it was just a steak, it would not even be remotely a problem.
Vanessa Spina:
I think I could too, but I think most people don't win the free steak. But any carnivores, carnivores are high protein eaters. We probably could be fine. We'd probably win it.
Melanie Avalon:
It was kind of ironic. I don't think I've ever engaged in one of those, even in my low carb days. It's kind of interesting, though. This speaks to food addiction and palatability. I know Rob Wolf talks about this a lot. Like in those eating contest things. Oftentimes, Rob always talks about this one show or episode where the guy would be trying to eat all the stuff and be literally sick and couldn't keep going. But then he would. And I think he was eating like ice cream. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
If you switch from savory to sweet, you can keep going.
Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. He added in fries, and once he added in fries, then he could keep eating the ice cream. Which speaks to just the overwhelming problem with the food system today.
Vanessa Spina:
I was just interviewing him on my podcast yesterday, talking about food system.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we need to get him on this show. I was waiting for them to move. So they've moved and everything now. Yeah.
Vanessa Spina:
And they're like setting up a element compound in Montana there.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my going to. I need to email him. I need to email Gregor.
Vanessa Spina:
They can be buddies.
Melanie Avalon:
We can do an episode, have them both did.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we had most of the podcasts. We were like, kind of talking about people who are silly when it comes to nutrition.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, really? I want to listen to it. When does it come out?
Vanessa Spina:
I think it'll be out in a couple of weeks.
Melanie Avalon:
Two of my favorite people together.
Vanessa Spina:
Thank you. It was funny because we were kind of talking about. He made this really interesting point. It's the last point I'll make on this episode, but he said how we were talking about the health at every size movement, and then there's these different people who kind of sometimes will attack these different protocols and things that we recommend or follow. And the whole point of paleo or paleolithic protocols or keto or intermittent fasting is to help people feel better, right? But it almost gets sometimes twisted around to the point where it's like, oh, you're making people restrict too much and you're creating stress for people. He really feels that a lot. And he says that he's starting to get back on his more. What's the word for it?
Melanie Avalon:
Pro.
Vanessa Spina:
More like, what is it called when you're a big advocate for someone? Zealot? I think he said, I'm getting back on my zealous high horse, or something like that. Because he's like, no, these things that we do. Paleo helps people who have inflammation and who have digestive issues and who are dealing with chronic pain. He's like, this is a solution to help people who are in pain. Why is it being twisted around into something that's harmfully restrictive or stressful or whatever? And I was like, I never thought about that. But the way he phrased it was so perfect. So we spent a lot of the podcast talking about that and just how these protocols, like intermittent fasting and keto and prioritizing protein, it's really to help people who want help. There's a lot of people who need help, who have chronic pain, who have chronic inflammation, who have. I more so work with people who want to improve their body composition, but there's so few people in our society who are actually metabolically healthy. People need these interventions more than ever. So, yeah, we were kind of talking a lot about that on the episode.
Melanie Avalon:
No, I love that so much. And I know we're talking about because I know he kind of went through a period, I felt, where he felt like maybe he was more focusing on the issue of people being over restrictive. Like, he was kind of like, in that vibe. I'm guessing that's what he means by now, coming out more on the other side. I mean, I know he's always been pro paleo and pro things, but I feel like he goes through times where he's been not over fasting and not overdoing things.
Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we talked about that, too.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, nice.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because I know he has a pretty strong opinion on not over fasting. And he said that his last talk that he gave was, like, longevity. Are we trying too hard? But he gets really passionate about the fact that there are these people who are zealously wanting people to not have any restrictions. And restrictions are important, right. If you don't restrict yourself from crossing a busy highway, you're going to die. So why is the term restriction always in this very negative context or negative light. When restrictions can be so helpful, they can literally save our lives.
Melanie Avalon:
Highway lanes are the reason we can drive anywhere. Like, if we didn't have stoplights and if we didn't have lanes like those lines on the road, it would just be. I mean, have you been to Rome? Yeah. I'm sure you. I guess. I guess we would get places. Because my family is forbidden. We cannot go back to Rome. It stressed my mom out so bad.
Vanessa Spina:
The way they drive. Pete loves it. He's like, it's organized chaos.
Melanie Avalon:
I remember one day we just sat at, like, one of those because basically, for listeners who haven't been to Rome, they have basically the equivalent of roundabouts, but there's nothing in the middle. So it's not like a circle. It's just an open circle. And you just drive in and then you just drive out and there's like, no, we literally just sat on the curb and watched the cars. And they're going, like, not slow. I don't know how they do it.
Vanessa Spina:
Your mom would not like Vietnam or Hanoi either.
Melanie Avalon:
They do that there, too.
Vanessa Spina:
There's just a lot of people on, like, mopeds and motorcycles. And it's really hard to cross the street. You have to just wait for a gap, then you cross and you have to run. It's like, frogger.
Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my gosh. Frogger. Whoa. I forgot about Frogger.
Vanessa Spina:
Pete has this time lapse video of me trying to cross the street, and it looks like. Like it took me like half an hour to get to him on the other side because there was no opening and I thought I was going to.
Melanie Avalon:
Die with the logs.
Vanessa Spina:
Yeah.
Melanie Avalon:
Don't you jump from log to log. Sorry. I'm, like, stuck on the frogger train now. Yeah. Wait, I want to see this video of you. It's really funny.
Vanessa Spina:
I'm just like. I go forward, Elaine in the back, and then I'm just like, yeah. He was just laughing so hard and it's so funny.
Melanie Avalon:
That's something else that will. Speaking of our discussion about fake time, have you ever, like, especially if you see an aerial shot of a crowd, like a Disney world or something, how people and crowds don't run into each other? That's mind blowing if you think about it.
Vanessa Spina:
It is. Yeah, it really is. I think about that all the time when I'm. Sometimes I'm weaving through a crowd and I'm like, we have these sensors or something around us that give us some kind of indication.
Melanie Avalon:
Think about it. Especially, like, crowds that are really crunched together.
Vanessa Spina:
People rarely collide.
Melanie Avalon:
They don't.
Vanessa Spina:
It's really funny. I think about that all the time.
Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy. It's mind blowing because think about how and these crowds can be moving fast. Like, you can have tons of people moving really fast in a tight crowd. Nobody runs into each other how and people are like going around each other. I mean, things to think about. Friends in your 2024? Oh, my goodness. Well, okay. I'm actually really excited about next. I'm always excited about next episode, but I'm excited about next episode with the question about protein and sleep because I did a lot of research. So teaser for next week.
Vanessa Spina:
Exciting.
Melanie Avalon:
Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. A few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@iofpodcast.com or you can go to iappodcast.com and you can submit questions there. The show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode350 and you can get all the Stuff We Like ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike and you can follow us on Instagram. We are if podcast. I am @melanieavalon, Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.
Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to chat with you on the next episode.
Melanie Avalon:
Likewise. Happy New year.
Vanessa Spina:
Happy new year, everyone.
Melanie Avalon:
Bye bye.
Melanie Avalon:
And no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.
STUFF WE LIKE
Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!
LINKS
BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer
The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast
More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com
More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com
Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com
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