Category Archives for "Intermittent Fasting"

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Welcome to Episode 364 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

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Go to ifpodcast.com/shield and get a $400 supplement gift card when you sign up for the SHIELD Program!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #189 - Dr. Megan Rossi

Dane's poor health history

Being close to death early in age

CMV

Difficulty with prednisone

Getting into rest and digest

Meditation, prayer, journaling

Victim mindset

Reading inspirational books

Law of attraction

You don't have to be perfect

GI Map for SIBO and imbalances

Missing the important clues on standard tests

Leaky gut and loss of microbiome diversity

The liver's role

Food philosophy

Feeling unsafe in your body

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #27 - Nick Ortner

SHIELD Program

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. You are in for a super special treat today with today's episode with Dane Johnson, I think you all will find it so inspiring. This episode is honestly for anybody, anywhere, whoever has struggled with health issues. We talk about so many inspiring things. And for those of you who do suffer specifically from IBD, Crohn's, colitis, definitely check out Dane's program. You can get a completely free evaluation appointment if you qualify by going to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then if you do qualify, and you do do that free appointment, and decide you do want to do the program, you will get a $400 supplement card with the program, which is awesome. You also get three months of coaching, lifetime support, so many things. After hearing Dane's story today, you'll really see how he completely changed his life and is changing so many other lives. And even if you don't technically have IBD or Crohn's or colitis, but just suffer from GI issues, IBS or actually any health issues. This episode is for you. It is so inspiring. We talk about so many things when it comes to reclaiming your health. I can't wait to hear what you guys think. Now enjoy the show. Hi friends, welcome to episode 364 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I have a very special guest on today's show. I am just so excited about this conversation. I think it's going to help so many people. So the backstory on today's conversation, about a year ago now, I went to Dave Asprey's biohacking conference in Orlando, and I met the fabulous, amazing Erin Smith. I think I had known her through email a little bit because she works with a lot of really amazing people. But I met her in person. She works with slash represents a lot of really cool people and was like, you have to meet my friend Dane Johnson. He has this incredible story about reversing IBD and dealing with IBS. And he's just changing so many lives and just has this incredible energy to share with people. So I was like, yes, please let me meet him. And so since then we scheduled the show, I went and listened to some of Dane's interviews and friends. I'm just so excited to have this conversation now because I think everybody is in for a journey when they hear what he went through and what he's doing today changing so many lives. So today he's the founder and CEO of Crohn's Colitis Lifestyle. And he's also a board certified nutritionist, specializing in reversing Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. But Dane, well, first of all, thank you so much for being here. And like I said, I have listened to some of your interviews and it's having been in places myself with IBS and also with hospital stays and things like that. I really, really appreciate you sharing your story and everything that you've gone through to, you know, reverse what you went through. But I obviously can't put your story in words for me. So first of all, welcome. Second of all, what's your story? What happened? I mean, it's crazy. I'm like, so excited to hear it now from you, like in real time.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you for having me and what an intro. Thank you, Mel. It's awesome to be here. Shout out to Erin. I've been with Erin for years. She's been a best friend and a connection to this industry and she's got that same excitement for what we're going to talk about today, guys. Yes, we need to get this out there about nutrition or biohacking or drainage or what's going on with the liver or cells or all these underlying issues that we're not hearing from our great, fabulous doctors in their own right. And so, yeah, she's amazing and I love working with her. Shout out to her and thank you for having me so much on here on episode 364. I'm going to bring the heat today, guys. Grab, you know, get pen and paper. If you know someone dealing with IBD, this is the moment I'm going to bring you as much value, as many to -dos, as much aha as I can at the time we have. I'm not going to hold back and I'm excited to help change lives. So I dedicate to you, to anyone out there who's chronically sick, who's stuck in that prison like I was, who feels like there's no answers, the biologics aren't working, the steroids aren't working, the antibiotics aren't working, doctors are talking about cutting out body parts. This... is dedicated to you, you're not alone.

Melanie Avalon:
some listeners might think, Oh, well, I don't have a technical diagnosis of IBD. I just want to share, this is really going to be for anybody who has experienced any sort of GI distress, just from, based on what I've listened from, you know, your story, just as a really quick random side note tangent. I was interviewing Dr. Megan Rosie a while ago. She's more in the plant -based sphere, but she works with gut health and digestion. And I learned, I think it was during that conversation, I learned that they actually have changed sort of recently, or when I interviewed her, it was recently the official criteria of IBS, which I thought was so, I find it really interesting how they even diagnose these things. Cause I realized I didn't technically qualify anymore because like I have a ton of digestive issues and have historically and deal with them through food and diet and lifestyle, but like now the criteria requires actual pain. And I was like, Oh, I don't, I don't actually have pain. So that's kind of like a tangent rabbit hole, but I find it really interesting, all the different labels and diagnoses and things. What are your thoughts on all of that for people?

Dane Johnson:
If you want to. go into conspiracy theory, maybe it's because we can't have 35% to 45% of the United States diagnosed with IBS because everyone is having these issues. At what point is it just, okay, everyone is having this? Why is there such an epidemic? And to your point about this isn't just IBS, IBD. I've worked with tons of people who are undiagnosed suffering. I'll give you one example. I worked with this guy, Steve. He worked at his father's business. He lived in Newport Beach, California, and he could not figure out what's wrong. 15 baboons today, 50 pounds under weight, no diagnosis, no inflammation, and just suffering. And we were able to get him off. And he was taking antidepressants because they would constipate him, not because of his mental issues. So that's how screwed in his case, he was just tied up like, I don't know what to do. This conversation is for anyone who wants to learn about how do I get happy and healthy at the same time and optimize my gut. And my story is going to help you with that. Because I was a good old boy from Virginia. I worked at Papa John's Pizza for four years. What do you think I ate five days a week? Making $5 .50 an hour. Okay, I worked Domino's, Papa John's Pizza. I ate fast food every day. I went to college and drank beer and ate whatever I could afford. We'd go to La Hacienda, like Mexican place, and just get the free chips and salsa with a cheese and tortilla queso, and it would cost three bucks, because I was broke, right? I mean, so that's when I started getting UC symptoms, and I was also really big in the gym, if you're someone who loves your GNC whey protein. I got to have 300 grams of protein a day to build muscle kind of guy. I can relate with that. If you're someone noticed thinking that your hormones might be off with gut health, I'll try to address that today. Everything is connected. The gut health, and I'd say, it's probably an argument on what is more important, both are extremely important, is also the liver. The liver and the gut have a lot of core issues that we can discuss today on how can we start to clean these? What are root causes? How do we find them? Should we invest in lab work? What's going on with food sensitivities? What is the microbiome? How do we start to build it? How do we know when it's getting better? How can I deal with things like constipation, diarrhea? What are some root issues that might be happening with that? So there's a lot we can discuss, and everyone with IBD, I want you to realize this in the connection. Just because you've been diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease or IBS doesn't mean you have an alien gut. You still have a normal human gut, and when you optimize a gut that has a diagnosis of IBD, you actually might get healthier than what a quote unquote normal person might see in their gut. there's a lot of words. Does that make sense, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
It does. And super inspiring. Basically, you know, if we are having these issues, it's an opportunity to, like you said, not only potentially reverse them, but to really, truly optimize your gut health. Yeah. Okay. I'm so excited. Can you dive into your story? I can't wait for you to start telling it. And I don't understand just having listened to your prior interviews. I don't know how you were doing it. Like I don't know how you were showing up on sets in the condition that you were in.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, yeah. And the last little thing on our tangent is my lab work looks better than everyone else's around me who are considered normal, who've never had a diagnosis. That's my point. My stool analysis, my urinalysis, my blood analysis, all of it, all of it. I look at normal people's quantitative PCR stool analysis and I find candida, I find Clostridia, I find dysbiotic bacteria, I find low stomach acid, I find fat malabsorption with no diagnosis. So that's what I'm saying, guys. It's for all of us. We're all together. IBD just means it got to a point where it's chronically inflamed, your immune system's freaking out, and now you're getting symptomatic. But there's a lot of people who are not symptomatic getting this symptom. So last tangent, let's jump in so people can understand about my experience. And as I said, the thing that really connects me is I never wanted this. I never wanted to be in natural medicine when I was younger. I was always entrepreneurial. I was always a hard worker, but I just wanted to eat what everyone else ate. I wanted to go where everyone else went. I didn't want to try to be this person who was restricting what I ate. I had a lot of problems being able to succeed in this. And the success came from a need, not a want, is the big point. So at 19 years old, I was going to College of Charleston in South Carolina, love Charleston, and I started getting blood in the stool. And the only thing I could think of is I was under a lot of stress with school. I had a breakup with a girlfriend at the time. And then I also was really getting into weightlifting. So I was having three to four protein shakes a day of stuff from GNC. And it was regular whey protein, which I came to find highly processed whey protein with a lot of additives, a lot of chemicals and sweeteners and different things that I think did affect my gut. And I started getting blood cramping pain as I calmed down on some of that protein. I calmed down on drinking alcohol. I calmed down on pizza that you have in college at 19 years old. I started noticing the symptoms did calm down. But by the time I was 23, it was kind of going on and off. I didn't I never heard of IBD. I never want to look at these problems. I wasn't one who wanted to go to the doctor. So I kind of put things off until I was about 23. And the reason is because at 23, I had started to have 12, 15, 18 bloody bowel movements a day. So I would go to the I would go. I mean, I was working in a lot of stress. Was it involved? I think a lot of us can connect with stress and symptoms. I was living in Washington, D .C., working a nine to five cubicle job, suit and tie, our commute there and back every day. I wasn't seeing friends. I was forty thousand dollars in debt from college. I was living on my dad's pullout couch, you know, trying to save money to pay off this debt. And I was kind of sad and miserable with it, but I was just willing to work hard. And I think my body started breaking down. But it looked like a crime scene and I didn't know what happened. And it was no longer, oh, I must have ate something off. And you kind of, you know, oh, you know, maybe it'll get better on its own. I think that's what we a lot of us do. It had gotten so bad that I had to start speaking about it. And I told my parents and then we went to the doctor and that's when they diagnosed me with ulcerative colitis at first.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow.

Dane Johnson:
That's terrifying. It was, too, because I'd never heard of it. And I didn't know what it was. And I remember sitting there, and I'm 22, 23 years old, and this doctor goes, yeah, you have ulcerative colitis. You're going to have this for the rest of your life. We need to start you on prednisone and mesalazine. So it's a 5 -ASA anti -inflammatory stomach coder along with cortisol steroid that helps knock out inflammation in your body. Long -term, terrible for you. A lot of problems with prednisone. But it can help knock out symptoms and make you feel like, oh, I'm going to be OK. But as you come off of it, it also has problems. So over the next few years, I just got more sick and more sick. So from 23 until I almost died of Crohn's colitis right around my birthday at 27 years old, it just got worse and worse and worse. So I just went through how everyone went through this. I used my insurance. I went to multiple doctors. We just did what they said. We even started reading about diets. So even while I was going on 6MP, Remicade, Intivio, anyone who's been chronically sick knows what I'm talking about. So these lifelong infusions of immunosuppressants and immunomodulators. So they usually put you on both, like an M urine and a Remicade or a 6MP or Intivio and you do both of them. Well, they were not effective. I was getting more sick on these drugs. I was getting terrible side effects. So I'm talking waking up in a pool of your own sweat, freezing, like you just jumped into the Atlantic Ocean in December. So, you know, sweats, headaches, pain, you know, three to four bowel movements a night, 15 bowel movements during the day. And then I started getting covered in cystic acne. And I didn't know what it was, but I was covered. My back, my chest, acne, I started losing weight. Today I walk around like 185, 190 pounds. And at my worst, I dropped to 120 pounds. So it was just like, you know, 23, 24, 25, getting worse and worse. And I had, God had blessed me with a career. I mean, when I was 22, I left that job. I took a one way ticket to California. I left this big job. I became a waiter in Los Angeles. You know, I left a big job with a 401k and, you know, a road to six figures. I left it all, became a waiter, got fired for my first waiter job. It made me laugh because I had a big job. And then they said, you couldn't cut it. You can't sell fish and wine, man. You're not good enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Would you get fired?

Dane Johnson:
for? I couldn't. I wasn't really good at reciting all the matchings of the wines with the different fish in Iran because I was working for reselling Oracle Software and they were begging me to stay because I was the youngest employee to get a promotion. I had gotten a raise in six months. I had asked for more money right out of college and my numbers performed best on the team reselling Oracle Software to the Department of Defense. They were excited. They wanted an IBM. There was another section was trying to get me. So I was, you know, barely my nose was up high, you know, and then I move. I say, no, I'm going to go live my life. This is my one time in life to go live and really just be myself is one of the happiest times in life. I just got diagnosed with UC. And then, you know, and I said, that's it. I got a chronic disease. I'm miserable out here. I got my degree. I got a year under my belt of office work and I got a resume, then get fired for my first waiter job. You know, when I moved to that, you know, hindsight, 2020, it did teach me a lot about my health. I'll get to. But, you know, I just was wanted out. I wanted I'm in California now. I'm living my own life. I've got like, you know, $4 ,000 to my name. And you know, I paid off a good portion of my debt for that year. I just put all my money towards the debt. But I just kept getting worse and worse. And you know, the 15 bound moments, the 20 bound movements, the chronic pain, so it felt like I was pooping glass and I started getting scared not to be around a bathroom. And as you said, Melanie, that made my story. We could take a whole, you know, hour on it. I want to trim it up for what's important for people to listen to. But God had blessed me with a career in acting and modeling. And I always thought maybe I could do it. So I went out there and I tried and I worked out it and shook hands and talked to people and figured things out. And I got signed with some of the biggest agencies in the world. And I started working with really good, clean commercial stuff like I was working for Nautica and Patagonia and Tommy Hilfinger. And I was working for, you know, Skechers and, you know, a lot of smiling young dad stuff as well. And so I was getting jobs like, oh, you got a job offer in Florida and Germany and Switzerland and Sweden. I'm going, this is all amazing, but I can't be without five minutes from a bathroom. And so that's a whole thing. And, you know, I was basically hiding it every once. So I didn't give up my career. I got booked for a 10 day job in Jamaica, OK, to shoot the Sandals Resort. Have you ever seen that commercial? I was one of the main guys in it where it's like a couple out on their vacation. So they paid for me to go out to Jamaica for 10 days. And I was on Prednisone. I had my mom actually had to wheelchair me to the airport. I mean, I was that bad. And when they saw me, I had lost 20 pounds from the casting. A month prior where they upset, they looked at me like, are you OK? You look a little skinny. I was just wearing baggy shirts. I told them, you know what I told them? I told them I was in Europe and Paris doing fashion shows and all that. And they wanted me skinny. I'm not kidding. It's a real story. And on set, we're shooting a commercial on set. I'm running off set into the jungle to take a crap and they're going, what's wrong? And I go, it must have been something I ate. I feel nauseous is what I told them. I mean, I am like double seven. I am hiding everything. I mean, and I did that for years. I mean, until one time I got booked just off my pictures, you know, because you get magazine pictures and commercials and one of my and I had agents all around the world and they called me and go, oh, this guy wants to build a fitness line around you and you're going to make all this money. It's going to be great. He just wants updated Polaroids on you. Well, I'm covered in acting. I'm 40 pounds lighter than my pictures. So my my and then I just I started just crying. I just lost it. I was in there with shout out to my booker at the time. My name was Chandra. I just thought my career was over. And it wasn't just about like the ego of like, I got this career. This is my one time to be a series regular or do all this. It was my freedom. It was that I could go off. I mean, it was one to my life. I was only going to be 20 something for so long. I was only going to have this experience one time. I wanted to live in California. I didn't want to go back to Virginia. So to get too sick was to give up my life in California and not have the money because I didn't come from a wealthy family where I would have to then just move back in with my mother and I did in Virginia. I didn't want to do that. So it was it was deeply like I had failed to let it go. And I just I I was I was a two faced person. I would put on this. I mean, I did a live on Good Day L .A. with Tommy Hilfinger himself. And I was literally losing vision as as I'm on the I'm on live television, you know, and and I weighed 142 pounds, six to in one of Tommy suits. He's like, you look good. I'm like, great. Thanks, Tommy. You know, and and so there was a lot of moments we could really go over that. Maybe one day, you know, I'll write all those stories. But it was like I was I was depressed, angry, anxious, hiding. You know, Marilyn Manson's makeup artist was working with me in Puerto Rico once. And I had to meet me two hours before set every day to to cover my body and makeup so they couldn't see all the acne. And I didn't fit. I didn't fit the clothes. So I kept trying to eat, but I couldn't gain weight. I was so upset. I was so angry And it was just getting worse. And then I was on set for uh doing uh, a show in same santa barbara For ug and then i'm literally shivering in a hot tub And i'm gonna tell you what the root causes we're gonna get to that. So i'm i'm cold sweats I cannot keep warm my vision's going in and out and i'm supposed to lead a fashion show with like all these executives around the world outside And i'm supposed to be like looking cool and fit, you know, and I go to the main um sierra I go to the art director. I've worked with them for six years, you know three times a year And and I said sierra. I I think I need to go to the hospital. I just told her I said look i've been pooping blood I'm underweight i'm shivering. I can hardly even stay awake She said don't worry about dane go and I was like blacking out as I was driving to the hospital I'm calling my mom. I I feel it was like worse than a dui I could not drive but I had to get to the hospital So i'm driving from santa barber back to l .a Because I gotta get back to where I kind of live and also i'm under sag after insurance Which really wasn't that good because I hadn't really built as much as had a lot going on as an actor yet at that point And so my insurance sucked and so I just drove straight I got stopped and got some emergency packets just to try to keep my brain working And I drove to the uh ucla clinic And then i'm there for like two hours, right two three hours and they're pumping me with morphine Which is like, you know, it's legalized heroin Basically, they're pumping me with morphine to help calm down the pain and calm down my body They put me in it But they're kind of keeping me in this chair and not move me into a room and then they come back and say look Your insurance doesn't cover you here in our er room So you're looking at a hundred thousand dollar bill of if you like eight to ten thousand dollars a day Depending on how long you need to stay. Do you want to stay and pay or you want to go? I said, you know bleepity bloop bloop bleep No Get me out of here They pulled me in an ambulance and sent me to cedar cyanide Two three hours later cedar cedar cyanide tells me the same thing your insurance isn't going to cover me So they sent me inland to a predominantly chinese hospital where I almost died And that was you know, so was suffering. I mean I was I was chronically sick and during that time I was I probably had already spent thirty thousand dollars on nash bat doctors I went to I flew out to mayo clinic So we would take we would fly out to different specialists and get a hotel room and pay for flights and food And then we'd go on google and read about supplements and diets and we'd go to whole foods and spend six seven hundred dollars You know, my sister was helping to pitch in and we were doing anything. I'd wake up My mom would be giving me almond milk and gluten -free cereal You know because that's what I lived on. I loved cereal when I was a kid So the big point in all this guys, you know, it you know when I bring it up, i'm kind of reliving it It makes me emotional But you know, I almost died in that hospital and it was intense and my whole family flew out You know if you ever seen someone interview, I kind of can feel the emotions rising up You kind of relive that trauma. My body doesn't want to remember it and that's why i'm so passionate about what I do now And i'm so convicted is i've been through it. I'm not a guy talking from an ivory tower I'm not someone who just is just in the books talking about the clinical. I live it. I breathe it I'm on the i'm on the field like a like a general I fight along with you guys. I really do this Yeah, my whole family flew out. I almost died in that hospital December 14th 2014. That was 10 years ago coming up And my mom actually helped save my life By calling all these different doctors and finding good for root issues We'll talk about you know Even like a ex -girlfriend had broken up had came and tried to help take care of me because it was like I mean it was it was really heart -wrenching like we had just broken up after three years Three months before I almost died. I mean talk about stress, right stress and energy has a lot to do with it I was on a feeding tube. I was on 200 milligrams of infused prednisone. I was on four antibiotics. I was on Intimio Intivio, I was on antiviral chemotherapy that actually saved my life That was eventually what we figured out I was on three grams of dilated and dilated is seven times stronger than morphine So if you ever taken morphine imagine 7x and then imagine the max dose of that So three grams of dilated is what you give to a cancer patient who's dying So I was floating. I was floating now. I don't remember a lot there. My mom says i'm talking to the window I i'm talking to my twin sister I don't have a twin sister, you know, I i'm saying crazy stuff I was stuck in that hospital bed for about 35 days and I lost the ability to walk because I went from a So at the at the show 35 days earlier at the show, I was about 178 180 pounds When I left the hospital about a week outside of the hospital when all that water retention from all the steroids started coming off I was 122 pounds that took about 45 days so about 45 days. I lost about 60 pounds And I didn't have and all the Skin on my feet was decaying off because of all the toxins in my body My body had nowhere to store it had no fat And I had such pain in my legs, but the muscles there was So if I got a massage the next day you ever had like severe muscle cramps from running 10 15 20 miles

Melanie Avalon:
I've had muscle cramps, not from running that many miles, but you can have some muscle cramps.

Dane Johnson:
You ever had like that muscle twitch up and you're like, Oh my God. You're like hitting your leg because it's twitching up on you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Oh, like the really, really pain, like the pure pain. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah. So that's how it felt kind of chronically for about an hour or two after any massage. Any movement in my body, it was, and then when I went to the bathroom still 10, 15 times a day, it felt like I was pooping glass and it felt like my colon was going to fall out of my anus. And so I'm 122 pounds. I look like a caveman. I've got a huge beard. I stink. My feet are like coming off. I'm in severe pain. You can't even give me a rub touch. And then I've lost really ability to talk because I can't listen to you. If you talk to me, I forgot what you say within half a second. I can't comprehend. I'm like brain dead, tongue sticking out, drooling, brain dead at this point. I've been on chemotherapy, Dilaudid, everything. And so even it took about a month for me to come back. So I was housebound for a year. The first month was just, you know, I couldn't watch. You ever seen the old Robin Hood cartoon movie? Yes. The conflict of that movie was too intense for me. So like, I couldn't handle any conflict, any kind of, there's a problem and we need to go fix the problem. So why? So I'm stuck on a couch. My sister is living with me. My mom and my sister are taking turns living with me to make sure I don't, you know, keel over. And I'm like, we cannot watch this. We watched Space Odyssey. Don't watch Lion King. No, I can't. I can't. I can't handle any, any conflict, like even dumb and dumber conflict. Like you didn't pay the gas man. Do you realize what you've done? I can't handle it. Like I need Space Odyssey. Tell me about Mars. That's it. Like you needed the Taylor Swift errors.

Melanie Avalon:
movie.

Dane Johnson:
My adrenals were so shocked, my nervous system was so shocked, I couldn't hear any conflict. The shock in my body was like, it was the strangest thing. I've never been there. But imagine being very stressed and watching a horror movie like, what am I doing? This is turn this off. It's kind of like that for everything. So yeah, it was hell and it was really hell and I fought my way back. And I remember when I almost was dying, it was like, I didn't really care anymore. I was just in pain and there was this one day I started just uncontrollably crying and it wasn't from the pain. I told the doctors it was from the pain. It was because my ex -girlfriend showed up. That was hard. When you get so sick and then you see how much people care for you, it's, ugh. So let me get myself back here. See when you relive it guys, that's the thing when you get on, you relive this stuff. It's really tough. So about a month, I started being able to move. Now, luckily, I had already in that four years from 23 to 27, I had decided I want to get natural medicine school. So I started looking at different natural medicine school. I looked at becoming a natural medicine doctor. I looked at the pros and cons. I talked to people who were already, you know, got their DO or DC or went and became acupuncturist or NDs. And I just looked at all this stuff because I knew I wanted to get involved in this. So I had already been practicing natural medicine for about a year, year and a half before I almost died. And that's why one of the reasons I was able to keep up in the shows and do all that is I did start seeing some results with diets and certain supplements and getting rid of certain toxins. I stopped drinking alcohol and I started working really closely with my naturopath professor. And so that kind of saved me until it exploded my face because I really didn't understand what I was doing to the level I do now. And so I know it's a long winded story, everybody. And I want to dive into being here to help you. You know, the big point is, is, you know, I spent a year rebuilding my 40 hours a week I was working, I was reading everything I could on functional medicine, I customized my own plan. I learned the assets of how to get real results and why I was failing before, which we can go over. And then about a year after that, I've been good sense. I've had some speed bumps, as I call them, where little things have happened, but nothing drastic. Nothing. That's I haven't taken a medication in 10 years. I have had no surgeries, despite every doctor telling me I had to get needed a full collect to me. And I work with people with surgeries. That's fine. We do fantastic results there. And we work with people with 40, you know, 40 years of Crohn's colitis. And I've been predominantly, I'd say 90 percent symptom free. I might have a little bit of something calm, loose stool, diarrhea, but no major issues, no major reactions. And I had a lot along the way. So as I got healthier, then I lived in New York City for three years and I had to figure out how to stay healthy without a bathroom around, without, you know, a lot of good clean air and being around EMFs all day long and not being home. You know, if you ever live in New York, Manhattan, you're not home from 8 a .m. till 10 p .m. That's just New York life. So there was a lot of trial and errors of how, you know, how to do all these things. I worked three jobs for three years in my 30s to build CCL. I built bootstrapped CCL. No, I never got a loan. I built it to be what I needed when I was chronically sick. And I've been viciously trying to figure out how to help the world with Crohn's and colitis and figure out what took me large amounts of money and large amounts of time and a lot of pain and suffering to figure out. Because if I had what I know now when I was that sick, I never would have got that sick.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, this is crazy.

Dane Johnson:
It's crazy. And so let's go back. I mean, one thing I want to give people about root issues I found, if I can give some people some value on that right now. When I was in the hospital, my mom was frantically calling every doctor I had ever met with trying to figure out why I wasn't getting better because antibiotics or prednisone had usually worked before. It wasn't working anymore. She called a doctor in Florida and this doctor, and I did colonoscopies with every doctor, right? Oh, you're in here. Let's do a colonoscopy. I was like, everyone's sticking some on my butt, right? I'm over that, right? I've done three. It actually just makes your microbiome worse. It disturbs the area. It can cause more issues with polyps. I mean, there's a lot going on with colonoscopies. I'm not saying they're bad, but there's a lot more than what's being discussed. And this one doctor said, in one of my samples, he found cytomega virus. Cytomega virus, CMV. He found CMV.

Melanie Avalon:
I had that too. That's so interesting.

Dane Johnson:
Oh, let's dive in. Okay. He said he believed that the CMV virus had taken over my body and my immune system could no longer control it. This also can happen to AIDS patients or cancer patients. Sometimes when you get chronically sick or the elders, like my grandpa didn't die. He had Alzheimer's. He didn't die of Alzheimer's. He died of pneumonia. His immune system couldn't protect himself from the pneumonia. Same thing happens with C. diff in the elderly's. What we see is that when a person's body gets so weak, these infections can kill them where other normal healthy people, it won't. My body had gotten so weak. It could be stress. It could be all these other things happening, but my body got so weak, it could no longer control the CMV. The CMV took over my body and that's why antibiotics weren't effective. That's why steroids weren't effective. That's why the antiviral chemotherapy saved my life. It started controlling the CMV. And then I woke up and I woke up. That's crazy. Isn't it? And then the doctors knew they called my whole family like he might not live the night. That's quote unquote what they told my mother. He might not survive the night. We don't know what to do. They didn't pick up the phone. Look, you guys are here for a reason. We need to be progressive. The worst mistake we ever did is delegate out our health. We need to be progressive about what is going on in our bodies. And I'm going to make that and through this whole podcast, I'm going to show that over and over again and prove it to you. We need to be the ones who know we need to be progressive and we need to be asking everyone more why and more what and more how. Don't just take someone's word for any of it. Because if my mom had made that call and done that, I'd be dead. On the other hand, if it wasn't for prednisone and TPN, I'd probably also be dead. So it's a combination of the natural, the functional, the conventional. You got to put it all together. That's what I've really done. During that year, I stayed on prednisone for a while and slowly tapered off. It was very hard for me to get off prednisone. When I was on 10, five milligrams, it took a long time. The doctor told me to just go 20, 10, zero. That was a mistake. If I go 20, 10, zero on prednisone, I'm back in a flare. I had to go 20, 17 and a half, 15, 12 and a half, 10, seven and a half, five, four, three, two, one, zero. That was that. My body was not addicted to it. And my body would freak. So that was my experience. This is not medical advice. So there's a lot going on there. So CMV was an issue. Now, once I started during that year, the biggest asset I had when I was stuck in housebun for a year is I had already decided that I was going to heal. I had already made up my mind that I could heal, that I would heal, and that I was going to use natural medicine, but I was also going to be open -minded enough to use conventional where I thought it could suit me. So the biggest shift I made in that year is I took the seat as the CEO of my health. Before, it was my GI doctor. We just followed what he or she said. And we got three or four GI doctors looking for them to serve as the CEO. Oh, Mayo Clinic, they're the best. We're just going to do what they tell us. Well, that didn't work. They were telling me food didn't matter. Same thing, cedar sign I said, same thing UCLA said. But if I did fasting, I saw the needle move. And I remember going to a doctor saying, hey, Doc, I had 20 bowel movements on average last week. I did some fasting. And then the day after I fast, I only had 10 bowel movements. Is there a correlation? Doc says not. Young idiotic sir, there's no correlation. Leave the thinking to me. have felt like that. And there was a correlation. It was an obvious correlation. And I'm not saying we all just need to fast for the answer. We can go over that, but we know the needle can move. If you see the needle get worse with stress, that means that the needle can move better with meditation and gratitude and love. If you see the needle get worse with processed food, that means the needle can get better with clean food. The law of relativity states for one thing to be true, its opposite must be true. And that is what I hung my hat on when I was sick as I knew I doubled down all chips in that I could affect my health. That I had a say and I was willing to do everything. Okay. So I'm going to give you some of my laws that I created in that year. Okay. I had a full time job. Get myself healthy. There's no failure. There's no quitting me. I almost died from this. I'm backed into a corner and you're going to hear a tiger start roaring. That's what I want to give you right now. You got to own this. I don't care if you're 16 right now, 18, 25, 40, you are the CEO of your health right now. I bestow it upon you. You're going to take full responsibility for everything that happens in your health, but you're also going to build your team. Okay. You drive the ship. Okay. It's not your fault. This happened to you, but it is for damn sure your responsibility. That was my biggest change right there. It's not my fault, Dane. I got to forgive myself that this happened. You're not supposed to be sick. Okay. Say this to yourself. I'm not supposed to be sick and it's not my fault that this happened and I am overwhelmed and I need a better team and I am willing to take responsibility and I love and accept myself anyways. Let's move forward. Start with the mind. First thing you got to do when I sat and I got that conviction. Okay. When you build conviction, you will act, the fog will start to clear. Okay. I've been in those shoes when you are sick and you need to get healthy, the fog will clear the moment you decide. I know it's crazy. It's divine energy. You got to get conviction. The energy of conviction needs to live in you because with conviction, certain answers become obvious. Watch this, Melanie. It's so obvious. When I got convicted, I came up with some laws that I never did for the years prior. I'm only going to eat what I cook. That's not hard. It's just hard to stick with with our lifestyles. I got so convicted and I was so sick and I was housebound that now that was going to be my truth. I don't know if I should be meat, plants, AIP, carnivore, SED, low FODMAP, vegan. I didn't know. I was in a very similar situation to you guys. I don't know, but I know that if I prepare everything that I eat, I'll learn quicker. I'll understand the variables better. It'll be cheaper because I also can't. work, it'll be cheaper and I'll be more likely to get better results. Here's the law. Here's the underlying law I want everyone to start with. If you're that sick or you really want to be convicted, if it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. That was my conviction. I mean, I'm talking. I was really screaming it from the mountaintop. If it can't hurt me and it can only help me, do it. So it just put away your shame. Prayer. I'm praying to God every morning and night. Why? Because it can't hurt me and it can only help me. It doesn't have to be, you know, the religious argument. Just give up that energy somewhere. Have a faith in something, right? And so I just decided to do that. Meditation can't hurt me. It can only help me. I didn't want to meditate. My match path professor was always telling me, you got to meditate. You got to meditate. Okay, fine. So I used to, then I started learning how to stack. So every, you know, every day I get an Epsom salt bath. I'd be reading a book and I do meditation and I knew I had engaged the parasympathetic nervous system when I started salivating. How do you know when you're in the rest and digest mode and you're signaling your cells to heal when you salivate? A lot of people don't know that. That's why when you're getting a really good massage, you're going to start drooling.

Melanie Avalon:
That's interesting. I've never heard that. Like ever.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, all these little hacks by Nd Tommy that I said you the man good one So that's one to know and that's another thing when you're meditating Actually, if you can start to try to get yourself salivating and you practice that you'll engage the parasympathetic Because that's the rest in digest mode when you're in the parasympathetic your body creates more digestive enzymes. Those enzymes lives in your saliva Your heart rate naturally goes down. You're not going to be able to salivate and have 120 your heart rate going at 120 per minute, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, yeah.

Dane Johnson:
Beats per minute. So the little things, like, and I also, I started figuring out how to make what I wanted feel good. That's layer two, let's keep going over the laws, okay? Only what I cook, I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna journal. It's obvious when you're convicted, five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the night, Dr. Dane's gonna see patient Dane twice a day, how'd you do? So I'm praying, you know, and I got my prayer from Jordan Rubin, if you're into IBS, IBD, and you should definitely be reading his books. His books helped save me, and I'll tell you, I was actually doing a one -on -one call with Jordan Rubin a month ago, and I manifested that, because I'm gonna pardon with the man. He helped save my life. His books were huge for me. And he had a prayer in there, and I just read it morning and night, in his book, The Maker's Diet. And he calls it, makers as in God, Jesus, The Maker's Diet, right? And a lot of his emotional spiritual really is what I connect to now, even more than the diet he puts in there. But I read that, I would then do aromatherapy, and then I would sit down and I'd journal about what was gonna go on. So how did my night go? And then how's my day gonna go? And when you journal and you hold accountability, you'll figure out, wow, I had way more bowel movements than I thought. I ate way more crap food than I thought. I had to wait more snacks than I thought. I didn't have enough water today. I really wasn't good on taking supplements. This is the accountability of it. And then if you're doing too much, you just gotta calm down on what you say you're gonna do day to day. You're just trying to do too much. So you gotta calm it down, because consistency is worth more than perfection. That's also layer two. I want you to be consistent more than perfect. You come and you listen to these podcasts, there's 5 ,000 things you can do. Calm it down and get consistent with what gives you ROI. So I'm gonna journal every day. I'm gonna eat what I cooked. I'm going to put on positive music. I refuse to watch dramatic killer movies. I'm not watching crazy intense aliens or Terminator or none of that. I'm watching comedies. I'm looking to laugh. I'm listening to Bob Morley. So another thing is I created my, I called it my I'm already healed. I'm already healed playlist. There's another hack. Create a playlist and put 20 songs in there that make you smile and make you wanna sing along. The trick is, is that you find yourself skipping a song, you have to delete it and replace it with a new song. You're always signaling happiness. You were telling yourselves, you were telling your body, I'm safe, I'm good, I'm happy. Another thing, especially when you're housebound or in a wheelchair or something like that, get stuff on your schedule. Every day I was booked. I'm gonna call my best friend from college. I'm gonna call my childhood friend. I'm gonna help this person out. Even though I was chronically sick, I could get on the phone and talk to someone about their relationships. I got positive energy. Hey, Rory, what's up, bro? Are you thinking, yeah, you guys doing well. You've been together for two years. How's it going? How you feeling? I'm not gonna just constantly talk to people about my problems. I wanna help people solve their problems. The more I condition being a problem solver, the more I'm gonna come back to my life and be a problem solver. Practice being a problem solver, okay? Another point on that, if you're gonna tell someone a problem, tell them a solution. That was big. For years, every day I talk to my mom, I tell her what was wrong. I tell her how angry I was. God smited me. I never deserved this. Why do I have to eat like this? Why is no one else dealing with this? Why am I the only one dealing with this? When I became CEO and I decided I was no longer going to allow myself to feel like a victim and feel sad, you gotta get rid of those feelings. And it's not like you can just change it in your mind. You have to condition it. We could literally stay here for two hours because everyone listening, you have to condition. It's like a workout. You don't live for biceps one day. It's every day that that muscle is gonna grow. It's the same thing with positive thinking and about getting rid of depression, anxiety, worry, doubt, fear, resentment, all that happens when you're chronically sick. It's a vicious cycle. So you just gotta start being healthy before you actually feel healthy. Being is what you're doing in the present moment. Eckhart Tolle, read it. So that's why I love reading, okay? So you gotta feel good. You gotta practice the feeling good. So I'm not gonna watch it. I'm gonna listen to Bob Marley. Luckily I lived in Southern California. Doors are open, sun's in. I found other things. What makes me feel good? I started gardening. at 24, 25 years old. old. Like today I still take care of 80 plants. I'm growing tomatoes, I'm growing cucumbers, spinach, basil, you know, I'm growing strawberries, I'm picking it. Today my son was helping me plant some chamomile and some cilantro yesterday because it gets us outside, it gets us hands in the dirt, it gets our feet in the ground. So it feels good. Like I can do that at home. Another huge hack, reading. People don't realize this, okay? If you're listening to this in your car right now, you can do multiple things while you're listening. But if you're reading a book, you have to be present with reading the book. Meaning if you listen about cognitive issues, 90% of our thoughts out of the 40 ,000 thoughts we have a day, last time I read on the stats, 40 ,000 thoughts a day, 90% are the same thoughts on repeat. If you're reading a book on health, on manifestation, on positive vibration, on letting go of pain, anger, anxiety, doubt, fear, you know, I'm going to die, all this. If you're reading that, you can't think about your problems and read that book at the same time. You'll lose your place. So that's where I said, oh my God, this is brilliant. Just the act of reading is replacing my thoughts with this brilliant author's thoughts. If you hire Tony Robbins one -on -one, it's going to cost you a million to $2 million. But his book, five bucks, it's his voice. Let his voice sink into your spirit 20 minutes a day. Dr. Susan Blum, Eckert Tolle, right? Joe Dispenza, one of the best books I read on mental and all this manifestation, Dr. Joe Dispenza, Breaking the Habit of Being Myself. That headline literally says what we're talking about now. You have to recondition how you think the positivity. And it's a condition just like the gym. If you lay off of it, you're going to start getting those negative thoughts because it is impossible to cure a bad day or any disease because all energy can come and go. I'm feeling bad. I got diarrhea. I got a headache. I got bleeding gums again. I got acne again. It comes and goes. Energy comes and goes. None of it's eradicated. Cure means eradicated. So life is about a conditioning of balance. The body is a balance. So we have to get back in balance with our body. And that's a repetition. That's a consistency. So journal, positive energy. Learn how to identify negative energy. One thing is I talk to people who get me all angry and upset and it'd make me worse. I'd have more symptoms when I was upset. I know everyone listening feels the same. You get stressed, you get more symptoms. So when you're around negative energy, you need to learn how to either A, get away from it, or change that negative energy. You got to manipulate energy. When I was chronically sick, walking around with a cane, 135 pounds, trying to rebuild myself, I was fierce. There is no negative energy allowed around me. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to see it. And if I was around it, I couldn't just yell at someone because I'm being negative and angry. I realized this with my mom. She's telling me what to do. I start screaming at her. I know what I'm doing because I almost died. And I started getting shooting pain as I start arguing with her on the phone. And that's what changed my mind that every day when I talk to my mom, I'm just going to tell her what's good. I'm not going to keep telling her I still have blood. I'm going to tell her that the blood is 30% down. You get the difference? Hey, how are you feeling, Dane? Oh, I still have blood. No, that's negative. And that's stressful. My blood's 30% down from two weeks ago. I'm winning. I'm happy. I'm there. If I can get a 30% down, I can get a 70. Mom, this is what I'm excited about. Every mom listening right now wishes their son or daughter would be like that. Everyone listening for the significant other wants the positive energy creates positive energy. Stop enrolling people and enrolling people in what's wrong and start enrolling them in what's right. Because it's the law of attraction. You keep telling people things are going to happen. It's more likely to happen. That's read the law of attraction, the secret. It's an energy. If you want to stop feeling bad, you've got to start acting in ways that create a spark for positive feelings. Feelings are emotions, energy in motion. Your spirit has these feelings that can be changed based on experience, not just thought you can't talk yourself out of feeling bad. So I can go on tangents all day about the mind, but it really is the biggest thing for long -term success when you're on that battlefield. You start there, and then you have to start building what I call your daily blueprint. What is your plan? You've got to get balance because when you say you're going to take these supplements or eat this way, it's emotionally taxing. It's very difficult. When you're going to intermittent fast and do a 12 -hour or 15 -hour schedule, it's emotionally taxing. You have to condition yourself with it. Is that not true, Melanie? When you tried fasting, was it much harder then than it is now, emotionally?

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. Now it's just second nature.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, and so, but it's a conditioning. The first few times you did it, and you probably talk about it with people, that it's tough. And that you have to find that positive energy elsewhere. Okay, and we can go on tangents about that. I'll say one with food. I had to replace the desire for gluten and processed foods with the desire of freedom. It's a replacement, it's not a sacrifice. See, if we invest $100 instead of buying those new sneakers, what is the positive energy? I am investing in my financial freedom moving forward instead of the immediate sneaker. Same with food. I am investing on getting back to my shape, getting rid of this bloating, getting rid of these skin issues, getting rid of these migraines, getting a clear mind, getting natural energy. I don't need three cups of coffee a day. Being confident and happy in my own body, and not needing to use a restroom, not worried about stool, not worried about inflammation. And that means more to me than anything. And so every time I eat that healthy food, I'm just investing in that freedom. And then I give myself, you did this, Dane, so now let's go get some sun. Now let's go out and hang out with our friends. My goal was not to be able to add back in gluten. My goal was to be able to go out to a restaurant and see my buddies, even if I'm not eating what they're eating. Or go to a bar, even if I'm not drinking. I just wanted to be free. I was stuck to a bathroom. So what are you investing in? What is your desire? Forget the fear. What are you gonna get out of this? What are you gonna give yourself that you're excited about? That needs to be part of your daily blueprint. What you do from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, make sure you can be consistent with it. I'd rather you do less and be consistent than try to do too much that's overwhelming you. As you get better at this, you're gonna naturally want to stack. Melanie, as you practice, have you found that you can handle more protocol, do more biohacking, read more books, and ask yourself to do more in your day to day.

Melanie Avalon:
Definitely. And also a quick comment to that. I definitely went through a, because you were talking earlier about how, you know, trying all these different things and this idea of, you know, if it can't hurt, it can only help, then you do it. I had the struggle or the experience of like feeling like I needed to try all the things. So even if I thought it couldn't hurt and could only help, I got overwhelmed with thinking I had to do all these things to be getting better. So I had a really interesting evolution of trying to do all the things and feeling like I had to do all the things to like letting go of some of that. And then finally coming back to a place where now the way I see it is I do the things that I know enhance my life, but I tell myself I don't need them. Like I don't have to be doing them. It's like a mindset shift that has really helped me personally.

Dane Johnson:
Beautifully said because you're you change the fear to a desire exactly yeah, so everyone write this down get rid of I need and replace it with I want.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love that.

Dane Johnson:
no longer. If you ever hear yourself, even today, I still catch myself. If I ever come out and say, man, I really need, I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, I really want.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, wow. So that's something, yeah, that you do.

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, because its need is an anxiety. I need more money. I need to get more time. I need to get a babysitter for these kids. I need to find more sleep. I need more time for my friends. It's all anxiety. Watch this. I want to find a babysitter with the children and be in balance with it. I want to be able to hang out with my friends and make sense of that time balance. I want to have more time that I can meditate and be with myself. I want to have more time with my wife. It opens up a how. It opens up a question. It's conversational. It brings credence to the date night. If you tell yourself another what you need, all they're hearing you is complain. If you tell them what you want, you're opening up a conversation for brainstorming. So desire, lead with desire, not fear is huge for me. And one of my first e -books I wrote, one of the chapters was, don't be surprised if you catch me eating a burger and fries. And it was because I had to break free of this idea that I had to be this perfect. It was one of my biggest fears when I really became an IBD specialist is I had to be this perfect eater that never did anything wrong. And I'm like, straight edge is all because that's what's expected of me. And it wasn't, you know, for me, I actually, this is way down the road for you guys, but I want you to be able to eat whatever you want. I want you to want to eat well and not poison yourself. So that's the thing. I can eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want. But I rarely ever choose to poison myself. That's true for people with IBD or regular gut health. If you're having, you gotta, it's a conditioning. So when you get educated about food and you get educated about processed foods and convenience taxes found in anything that you have to open, a wrapper you have to open, there's a convenience tax, I call it. And a convenience tax means if it's easy and it's made simplified, you don't have to cook it, there's something that's gonna tax your body. The latest research is gonna tell you something someone's gonna come out and finally say, oh, nope, that package has this. It's in everything, okay, it's a convenience tax. So when you can change that, but I wanna really dive into some of the like really big takeaway physical things people could start utilizing. Because I know maybe for you and I, Melanie, this stuff really hits home because it's so big for the growth. It's like for me, I just say it's like church. It reignites my spirit, it reignites my why. It gets me excited, it connects me with the community. I wanna work with you guys. I want you to win and me to win because I want our team to grow. I wanna be able to see you and talk about, hey, what solutions have you found and what place? I imagine a network in the future where no matter what town or city we go into, we have people working on creating good restaurants with no seed oils and no processed foods and no glyphosate and building conscious companies around these solutions. I wanna pardon with people who are inspired like this. Those are the friends I wanna be around. Those are the people I wanna go to dinner with. I'm interested in what you have to say. You know, I wanna be inspired by you. I only wanna be influenced by people who are happier or healthier than me. Not richer, not more Instagram followers. I don't give two craps about that. I wanna be around people who are happy and healthy. You know, those are the two things I look for. And so, you know, here are the things that I found. So when I got out and I started looking deep diving into functional medicine, I've been working in functional medicine about 10 years, and I've worked with a few thousand people with Crohn's and colitis. We put out a testimony of completely reversing people's symptoms once a week. That's how much we do this. We only see Crohn's colitis. We see about 130 clients a week with Crohn's colitis, and we see people all around the world. We have testimonies in Africa. Our youngest testimony is six years old. I've worked with a three -year -old. Our oldest testimony is 67 with 42 years of Crohn's, five surgeries. Yeah, we do it all. This is what we do. Everyone on our team, all our coaches and practitioners have Crohn's colitis themselves. So we live it, we breathe it, we own it, and we customize it. We work with vegans, we work with meat eaters, we work with people who AIP, we work with people whose goal is to be able to eat whatever they want again, whatever it is. You've got to decide what your North Star is, right? And so here are the things, the big things I found physically and the functional side of things that were really big problems that the doctors at Cedars -Sinai, UCLA, Mayo Clinic never mentioned to me, okay? The biggest one that you can get ROI on is a quantitative, just to start with, is a quantitative PCR stool analysis. I like to use the GI map. Some people will use Genova, a gut zoomer by Vibrant America, GI 360. There's a lot of them out there. And they're all pretty similar with a little differences, little color changes. But when I did that, I found large amounts of H. pylori. H. pylori is a bacteria that can cause low stomach acid, can cause ulcerations, can cause bleeding, can also be linked with SIBO because when you have low stomach acid, you're more likely to get bacteria overgrowth and fungal overgrowth, especially in the small intestine. And that can have a cascade of problems. So as you go over this, guys, remember that the body, it works like in a big circular motion. It's a moving circular motion and one thing gets off, it causes a cascade effect. So as symptoms, you could go, oh, I'm overwhelmed, I have so many symptoms, but once you fix one thing in that circle, usually a lot of things get better. So everything tends to get better or everything tends to get worse, you know? And so that was an upstream problem for me, was no one had ever told me I had a large amount. Now when I tested H. pylori and did a stool antigen chest at the conventional doctor, it had tested negative because they can only find what's called mid E to the fourth or greater, okay? Well, the PCR had showed about low E to the fourth. So it was coming up negative with the doctor's technology, but it was coming up positive with the PCR technology through functional labs. And also H. pylori, and this is deeper level understanding, is that it can be in biofilms, it can also burrow in the gut, so it can be hidden in your body and actually have much larger levels. Found H. pylori, I found large amounts of candida that was linked, in my opinion, to the skin issues, one of the problems with the skin. Why was I breaking out an acne everywhere? I was bathing in Neutrogena, you know? And today, with all the people who have helped with their skin issues, I could literally run a Neutrogena ad with all the skin I've cleared, working on the liver and the microbiome and the hormones and the food, right? And so I found large amounts of candida. I had a young, I'll give you a quick case on that, I had a young man in LA, and he had the best PPO insurance, he had a great job, multi -six figures, he was on prednisone, he was on biologics, 20 bloody bowel movements a day, about to get his colon removed because the steroids and biologics weren't working, doctors didn't know what to do. He starts working with me, I do a stool test on him, and I immediately find four times the normal threshold of candida, right there in an at -home, non -invasive stool test. And you gotta remember, just like mold or viruses, look at COVID, some of us, we don't have responses to it. We're freaking out to it. One person's in the R room from COVID, one person, no problem. It's the same thing with candida, it's the same thing with mold, it's the same thing with parasites, it's the same thing with all these things. I had a three -year -old with massive amounts of gliotoxin, we got rid of the gliotoxin mold, her gee, I heard calprotectin went normal. So that's the thing is a lot of times it could just be that you have a massive infection and no one's looking at it or no one's seeing it and the lab's insurance companies aren't really covering it. And most of the time, I don't know about you guys out there, but the doctors aren't running these tests. And even when they run a test, they don't go over the test with you, they just go, yep, nope, we didn't see anything. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, show me the test. That's what a functional doctor's also gonna do with you. They're gonna interpret and show it for you. And for me, I wanna actually train you on the ABCs of lab tests, so you can do them yourself whenever you want. Because we can actually order you a lab test in Dubai, Canada, America. We can do Australia all over the world. We can get you a stool test and you can order it on your own wholesale price. That's something we do. So, you know, that you can see. You can see, you know, pancreatic enzymes that can give you an idea of low stomach acid. You can see fat malabsorption. You can see zonulin for leaky gut. You can see dysbiosis. You can see really bad infections like campylobacter, Giardia, C. diff, toxin A or toxin B. So it's not a perfect test, but a lot of times I can just find obvious stuff right there. And anyone out there, I definitely look at, if you wanna invest in your health and you haven't done a stool analysis, it's a really good place to go. If you're on a budget, then I'd first work with a coach and build a plan, do that for a couple of months, then spend money on labs. Because labs are expensive if insurance doesn't cover them. Insurance doesn't cover most functional lab tests unless you have a really, really great doctor who's really cool and hip, but still very rare. And so that was, I found H. pylori. I found candida, the cytomegalovirus. Now the cytomegalovirus was the biggest one because that's what was killing me. So when I calmed that down, now I just had really bad IBD, but I wasn't life -threatening. So now I had the star, I started working on candida. I started working on the H. pylori. I had very low short -chain fatty acids, butyric acid. I had very low beneficial bacteria. I had very low stomach acid. I also found, later on, I found parasites. I tested positive for blastocystis hominis and cyclospora, I also tested positive for, so I had to work on parasites. Another problem that my skin was telling me that I later found out is I had severe drainage issues. My liver was so backed up. I had very low bioproduction. My lymphatic system wasn't working, especially when you're bed rested and you don't move. That's some of the vicious cycle. Because you get so sick and you don't move, well, your lymphatic system tends to work better when you're jumping up and down, or you're walking, or you're exercising, or you're sweating. Okay, so that gets the lymph to move, or pressure, like H -bot, hyperbaric oxygen chamber can also help that pressure or scuba diving can help push toxins out of the lymph, which also can help with anxiety, PTSD, or migraines. So a lot of times it could be a lymph issue, or it could be magnesium, salt issue as well. So you start to see all these problems. So, you know, I'm 30, $40 ,000 into this. I've gone to every major doctor, and no one showed any of that. No one found any of that, or even talked to that, or even looked for it. So that was really the big thing I want to say is there's so much underlying. And I want to say this is a big point, Melanie, and for everyone listening on this. When you get diagnosed with a disease, and someone says it's incurable and we don't know what causes it, and then you just look at the actual mechanics of the gut, you start to see that it's not just a root cause you're looking for, it's root causes, it's root issues. And no matter what disease you're looking at, specifically with autoimmune, I mean, I specialize in Crohn's class, so I'm specifically talking about that, but any autoimmune disease, nine times out of 10, I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar, if we look deeply at your systems, we're going to find problems. Here are the top problems we're going to find. Beyond the pathogen infections we just talked about, that's a core problem driving autoimmune, but here are other basic fundamental problems of how your body is not working, like an engine. With autoimmune disease, I am finding commonly low stomach acid. Commonly, you are not breaking down food well. And guess what that stomach acid's doing? It's also helping to kill off bacteria and parasites and other infections that are now going unchecked into the rest of your GI. It's also causing problems with food sensitivity. Why is it, Melanie, most of us grew up, we were fine with bread, we were fine with a little bit of milk, we were fine with a little bit of peanuts, we were fine with a little bit of eggs, now we're all sensitive to it. We're not allergic, most of us were sensitive. See, I'm not allergic to those foods, but I couldn't tolerate any of it. Now, I could, my gut is strong enough that I could go eat an entire large Papa John's pizza pizza and my gut would be fine. Is it good for me? No, but my strength of my digestion, my microbiome, my gut lining, it can handle that damage, that poison. Before, I couldn't have a sip of water without a bloody bowel movement. So with low stomach acid, that's also affecting, it's part of the equation where we're getting more sensitive to food. Why is it dairy and gluten are the big two? Besides the glyphosate in the process and the A2 casein and the gliadin increase, The gliadin protein and the casein and lactose protein are the hardest to digest proteins. They're very dense. When you have low stomach acid, those are the type of foods that are gonna go unchecked through the stomach acid. So now you have partially digested proteins sitting in your small intestine that now need to be evacuated through the colon, causing more gas, more diarrhea, more cramping, and it's damaging your villi in your gut lining. So imagine all these little particles around your gut lining. Remember, your gut is 28 feet long. So it doesn't matter if you have IBD or not, that's a problem for all of us. As those undigested proteins go and try to be absorbed through the gut lining, they're big, they're dense, they're not supposed to be there. The gut then breaks itself apart to allow that to be pushed through, or it poops it out and that's where you get really nasty smelling gas and bowel movements and diarrhea, but it goes into the gut lining and that's why a lot of us are noticing derious causing acne. Because it's inflammatory, it's not being properly digested, and it's seeping into the bloodstream. And then it's backing up the liver because the liver is cleaning the blood. I can't remember exactly how many times, but I think, don't quote me on this, you guys can check online, but I think the liver cleans about 200 gallons of blood a day, something like that. So you've got all that. And then now you got damage to the gut lining where there's a cytokine reaction and then the mucosal membrane is also being weakened. So it's causing a downstream problem. So you've got to think upstream. So digestion is a big problem. Microbiome diversity. We're not eating from farms. Everything we eat has glyphosate. Glyphosate is destroying the microbiome. The more diverse the microbiome, it's already been clinically showing, the less likely COVID is gonna be a problem, the less likely food sensitivity is gonna be a problem, the less likely autoimmune is gonna be an issue. We're losing our diversity. And with the loss of diversity, we then can't control the bacteria causing SIBO. We can't control the fungus causing mold issues and other candida issues and fungal issues. So we're losing control of our environment, much like the forest, okay? So we need that diversity in there. The microbiome in the soil and the microbiome in the gut are very similar. We're losing the diversity in the soil and it's destroying our food on the planet and we're losing the diversity in our gut, it's destroying our gut. See the connection to the earth? We're human organisms. So microbiome diversity is a big problem. Second is that leaky gut. So that gut lining being inflamed in a weak mucosa membrane. So that's causing more downstream problems for everyone. Meaning, just because you don't have IBD or IBS doesn't mean you don't have leaky gut. So what is leaky gut? As those tight junctions and that gut lining are being weakened, destroyed, the membrane that separates the gut lining from the bloodstream is being winged out. It doesn't have the proper food, right? Like butyrate, probiotics, phosphatidylcholine are three foods for the gut lining. And since it's getting weakened out, the villi are then getting damaged and the villi get worse at absorbing nutrients. Right behind the villi is all of your cytokines. So the dendritic cells live there, the T cells live there. And that's where you're getting autoimmune disease because they cause the pro -inflammatory interleukin -6, interleukin -1 beta, TNF alpha, and IL -12, IL -23, all those cytokines start living right behind the gut. That's why they say the immune system lives in the gut. So right behind that damaged gut lining in the mucous membrane is all those cytokines, all that immune system. So now they're firing and firing. And that is connected, in my opinion, in my belief, with all autoimmune disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, diabetes, Crohn's colitis, of course, all these different forms, okay? So that's a core problem for all of us is the gut lining is not strong, the microbiome diversity, the digestion. Next is the liver. Almost all of us have a backed up liver. It is a core problem. I think Sinclair, she's doing a great job on this. She's really opening up. A lot of people are really opening up on this. But what's happening is our liver is getting overwhelmed with all these toxins. We're breathing in toxins, we're drinking toxins, we're eating toxins. As our liver gets backed up, we can't create bile. Bile is how the liver cleans itself. It attaches all the toxins to the bile and then dumps them into the duatum at the top of your GI tract, then to be disposed. So a lot of times with so much toxins, the duatum is at the top of your GI. So that means the toxins have to go through 28 feet of the GI tract to be exposed through the bile. They're getting reabsorbed into the body. They're not even getting properly dumped because the liver's overwhelmed and there's not enough bile production. There's not enough pancreatic enzymes. And we're cutting out our gallbladder is also a problem. Okay, and so the liver as it gets overwhelmed, we can't create glutathione. It causes more constipation. It causes digestion problems. Because without bile, you can't break down fats and you can't properly absorb your fat solubles. Vitamin A, D, K, E. Those are your fat syllables. So now, what's gonna happen? You're gonna see hormone issues. Okay, you're gonna see omega -3 to omega -6 issues. You're gonna see inflammation issues. You're gonna see cognitive function issues. Because if you can't properly utilize your fats, your brain's not gonna work. Your body's not gonna work. Your hormones are gonna work. It's a cascade. So liver, liver's a massive problem, especially if you believe that you have parasite issues or mold issues. Those two are gunk. It's like tar in the liver. Okay, and that's why people are allowed to talk about Castoril packs and coffee enemas and Nacetyl cysteine and tudka as a biosalt and bitters to help your body move and produce more bile. So there's so much going on in there. And even as you start dumping that out, and a lot of us, even if we're on a specific diet, we have these other core issues where the diet's not enough. Melanie, how many times have you talked to someone on a strict diet, but they're still having problems?

Melanie Avalon:
A lot.

Dane Johnson:
a lot, right? And so that's the thing is diet itself is only one stage. The whole point of diet is to reduce, you want to get rid of the toxins, right? The best thing you do with diet is defensive, get rid of the toxins, get rid of the inflammatory stuff. Okay? So the two things I want you to focus on with diet, whether you're plant, meat, whatever, the goal of it is it has to reduce or eliminate an inflammatory response from eating. So you're not getting an inflammatory response from the food you're eating. And number two is it needs to be bioavailable. Those are the two cardinal rules. I call it food philosophy. So in the shield program, what we do is we actually free you from a diet and we build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy. That's our mission statement with food, no diets. We build a lifestyle that makes you happy and healthy food philosophy. Food philosophy is measured by being able to have the self -empowerment to look at any plate of food and measure your ability to handle it. So can I look at that plate of food and assess its risk? So I coined that as I started trying to open up my diet because I couldn't have grains. And then I got scared of phytic acid, and arsenic, and Dave Asprey is making me scared of everything. And so I'm going back and saying, no, no, I have a normal gut. I want to prove it. I should be able to handle a bowl of oatmeal. That was my mission statement. It wasn't oatmeal is bad. I'm never going to eat it again. It was, I want a normal gut and a normal gut should be able to eat any of these foods properly prepared from the earth. So I should be able to handle an almond. I should be able to handle quinoa. I should be able to handle a red bell pepper and a tomato. Even though Gundry's got me scared of that. So it's like you look at all these diets and I'm telling you guys, this is how I've worked it out is my goal is to be able to eat whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want, but I need to use food philosophy to assess its risk. And I need to be strategic about can I really handle it and is it really causing a problem? And that's where lab work and all that comes in. But the stronger your microbiome, the stronger your digestion, the stronger your mucosa membrane, the more healthy your liver, your gallbladder, all those things. And the better you prepare the food without all the inflammatory stuff, you're going to be back to mother Teresa. You're going to be with the Italians, baby, having a good time. Give me whatever. Okay. Make it up, chop it up. It's all good, right? Get rid of all the nasty stuff. So, you know, that's my mission for you. I want to see, I want to desire that. I don't want to be scared of food. How many of you guys are done being scared of food? I want to be able to eat food from the earth. And I just assess, was it cooked in canola oil or soybean oil? I go to every restaurant. They're all cooking in trash. Where'd you get this chicken? Was it just fed corn its entire life and completely stressed out and given steroids to grow? And I mean, same with the fish. I mean, there's a lot of problems here. So, for me, it's not about just plant versus meat. It's the quality of the food and how it's prepared. That's the big thing we all need to get on the same page with. That's where you really start looking at what are the mechanics going on in the body. And you also, when you want to become a Jedi. So, if you're going, Dane, you've given me so much. I'm overwhelmed already. This is for that 10% who already know a lot of this stuff or are getting excited about it and want to take it to the next level. Here's the next level. You've got to change your relationship with how you feel about being a sick person. People who are chronically fasting and chronically on these diets, there's this deep feeling of also unsafety. Like, if you don't do it, you don't feel safe in your body anymore. You start to feel this inflammation. There's this lack of safety. I felt that about 18 months ago, I really started addressing that. And it's gotten better, but I still don't feel fully safe. To be completely transparent, I still don't feel fully, fully safe in my body. But from 18 months ago, I'd say it's about 60% better. you I'm sitting in Tahiti and I don't really have any symptoms, but I still feel like if I don't do all these things or take all these supplements to do that, that I'm not safe, that I'll be hurt again. Right, Mel? You get that, right? Now, me and Mel could probably just talk about this for hours because this is where we're probably at, so I want to give you some of what you're looking forward to. We have to re -trigger the relationship at a cellular level with our body of how we feel, feelings, like really address feeling. It's okay that you feel unsafe, but why? And start doing that. So, that's where I started doing EMDR, hypnosis, EFT are my three favorite. I think German New Medicine is cool, too. People have gotten results with it. I just think these are a little bit more, I don't know, there's more science behind it, more people are doing it. It's more broad. German New Medicine is more about tactics for IBD, but EFT tapping is emotional freedom technique. So, I meet with an EFT mental health specialist usually once a week, once every two weeks, and I'll tap on why do I not feel safe? I'll tap on why is this food thing? I'll tap on I'm going to, you know, whatever I'm scared of, or I just had a newborn baby, like my son is two months old and I'm freaking out over here, right? I'm tapping. So, from the lack of sleep and write that, so we're starting to release energy. Remember, that feelings are an energy. It's not physical. So, can you change the way you feel with just physical? Meaning my lab work, my supplements, my diet, my fasting, that's physical. You have to start opening up to the energetic side of it. You have to realize that energy actually transforms into physical. I'm stressed, turns into more bowel movements, right? Well, I'm at peace. I'm in love. I'm conditioning myself to let myself feel safe. Okay? And I'll do this right now for 10 seconds right now. I want everyone just to breathe for a second. And I want you just to try to feel the feeling. Just try to get the feeling of safety. Just practice right now. Feel it. Forget your truth or your reality. I'm safe. Imagine with all your best friends, it's the middle of the day, the sun is shining, you don't have to be anywhere, you're not worried about money, your job, you're not worried about what's on your plate, you're just here and you're safe. Feel that goodness. Just practice. Let it smile. Put a smile on your face because you can. Feel. Feel safe. If you've got that feeling right now, feel it, become aware of it, hold onto it and come back to me. We can change a feeling not just based on what we think reality is but because we choose it. You have to choose to wake up and condition a new reality and that's what hypnosis is helping with and that's what eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing is helping with and that's what emotional freedom technique is helping with. There's a signal at a cellular level that actually becomes physical. We need to send the signal to ourselves that we're safe, that we've arrived, that we're not meant to be sick and that we're okay and that needs to be conditioned and the more sick and the more suffering you've gone through, the harder it will be but you'll probably end up being a superhero for the world coming on and helping people like Melanie's doing. Usually the more suffering, the more superpowers and just realize that it's a balance. Let go of the idea that it's okay not to feel safe in a moment because in a moment in your life you're going to feel angry, you're going to feel lost, you're going to feel lonely. There's no way you're not. You can't eradicate those feelings. You will feel them again. You will feel like you're not as healthy as you want. It will happen. Just expect it. Make friends with it. It's okay. You can't eradicate any energy. There's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your health. It's going to be a day where you feel like you're not doing as well with your marriage or your girlfriend or what's in the mirror. It's going to be a day you're not going to be doing as well with your food. That is called life. It's supposed to be there. The answer is balance. Can you feel it? Can you be okay with it and can you rebalance yourself? Winners win because of their best at rebalancing, not because they're the best at not feeling. The best winners in the world still feel loneliness. They still feel sick. They still feel off. They still feel like they're failing. It's their ability to respond to it that makes them winners. So again, the goal is not to eradicate anything. The goal is to respond. Can you stay in balance? If you stay in balance, you'll continue more often than not, send a chemical signal to your cells that you are safe and that you are okay. And your parasympathetic nervous system will engage. And studies show that when there's less stress, which is an energy, that there's less chance of cancer, there's less chance of disease, there's more likelihood of better microbiome diversity, there's more likelihood of better digestion, there's more likelihood that you're gonna stay married, there's more likelihood you're gonna have the best life. So whatever it is, the Jedi moment here is keep practicing the feeling, safety, happiness, love, gratitude. And that, when I bring it back, is why I decided to pray, because it changed the signal. Hope that helps.

Melanie Avalon:
I would say yes. That was amazing. Thank you so much. So have no fear, everybody. The show notes will have a full transcript of all of this. So what you were talking about with reading, people can actually go and read this and take it in and only take in that information at the moment. I'll also put a link. You mentioned tapping. I've had Nick Ortner on the show, I think twice. So I'll put links to that if you want to learn more about tapping as well. So how can people work with you and what resources do you have?

Dane Johnson:
You can check us out check out also the show note in the links. I'll send it to Melanie where you'll be able to apply for a strategy session to talk to our team about your case so we want to put our best foot forward for you. Are our plan is the shield program that stands for supplements herbs imagination exercise lifestyle and diet. We will build you a customized plan we will train you on these things we will train you on labs and protocol nutrition and customizing what you're gonna eat what you're gonna take and why you'll be part of a community. You have full access to talk with anyone in our community our community is free governing so we don't restrict you talk with other members on their results and we have different threads for moms and dads and people in india or europe or australia or people who you know are doing surgeries or fish a lizard fishers you name it. The show program also includes three months of private coaching with your ibd coach who specializes in this has the these themselves and only sees krone's colitis or ibs something around that nature 90% are a form of ibd so that can include microscopic colitis lymphocytic colitis and colitis you name it and so we really are our impact driven company. And when you come in you'll apply for a complimentary strategy session to talk with one of our sports specialist who also have ibd themselves i love our team i'll talk with either becky or kelly or erica or lindsay and all of them actually have. Had some form of ibd since they were teenagers in the role in their late twenties and early thirties or fifteen years of experience with this surgeries by logic you name it so we immediately want to put you on a phone with someone who can relate with you connect with you and really help you feel supported cuz i would've done anything to talk with someone who had krone's colitis when i was sick. And just you know how they started getting their life back and so you'll be able to do that and see if the shield program is right for you and if. And you can also see us on instagram krone's colitis underscore lifestyle calm or YouTube youtube .com slash krone's lifestyle me dane johnson one if you want to say hello to me and let me know you came from Melanie. You know if you click the link in the below will know you came from Melanie because we want to support you, we want to support Melanie and just know like you know. That money took this time and introduced me to you guys i want to build integrity and trust with you and so that will be the show program and we have other other values that you can do and you can work with us so just reach out to us let us know what you need and we will have a solution for you.

Melanie Avalon:
So again, these show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 364. And that's where we will put links to everything that we talked about. All those resources will be there. Goodness, this was just so incredible. I really can't thank you enough, Dane, for everything that you're doing. And it's interesting because I remember when I had my own like rock bottom with health issues and I mean, I was not in the hospital for 35 days, but I was there for three days and it was not fun. And I remember thinking, I was like someday, well, I remember thinking two things. I remember thinking, I'll know I'm like on the up and up when I'm taking pictures again in public. Like when I'm at a restaurant and I have like pictures of me there with the family or like when I'm on social media again, because I was like so scared of like the world and like me and everything that was happening. So I had that moment. And then I had the moment thinking like someday I'll be grateful this happened to me like not right now, but someday. And I can truly say that now because I wouldn't be doing everything I I'm doing if I hadn't gone through those health challenges and hearing your story. I'm just so grateful for what you're doing. And sounds like you also wouldn't be doing everything that you know you're doing if you hadn't gone through that as well. So I'm just so grateful for you sharing your story and what you're doing. And it's incredible. I look forward to everything else that you have coming.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'll give you one that I was super grateful for. The day I could pee without having a bowel movement was like the biggest, oh my God, to like go into the stall and not have to like shamefully like run in there and release whatever is coming out. Like, you know, was so, oh my God. It was like, oh, I'm back. Thank God. Yeah, I'm grateful. And thank you for having me, Melanie. I mean, you put this together and you're the one who's putting the work in to create this, create this environment for us to grow and learn together. I just want, you know, I want to grow forward with trust and integrity. I want to serve people in Crohn's colitis. I want to do much bigger than even what we're talking about. We're going to build the most empowered Crohn's colitis community globally. We have big ideas. I want to create a win -win scenario for us. I am driven on impact, you know, connect this, whatever you need, please click the link in the show notes. We know you came from Melanie because we want to also support Melanie in that. And yeah, we're just here for you. And we know it's tough, but you're going to get everything you need to get real results coaching. We can get lab work around the world. Also EFT. I didn't mention this, Melanie. I actually just hired my EFT coach to come and do a free EFT session for a whole community once a week. So every week you can just jump on and do a live with her and she taps on everything, fear, optimism, doubt, worry, anger, and she does Q and A as well. And she's awesome. She has also colitis herself for 15 years. And then we have an ND who meets every week to go over like training on supplements and like stacks for constipation or different problems. So that's another thing we're adding is we're adding professors who just come on and do lives beyond your private coach. So we are thinking and we can ship supplements all around the world. You know, we're just doing big things and we're just really excited. And if you have IBD reach out, we want to, I know there's a lot of crap and craziness out there, but integrity and trust, that's what we focus on and we try to do our very best. Thank you so much, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much, Dane. And so for listeners, Dane has an incredible generous gift for you guys. So if you think that this program is applicable to you, you can go to ifpodcast .com slash shield. And then when you go there, you'll fill out some intake forms. And if you qualify for the program, you will get a free intake session. And you said, how long is that session, Dane?

Dane Johnson:
usually about 45 minutes to an hour, you'll talk with your IBD sports specialist who also has had IBD and recovered from IBD and be able to talk to you about your case complimentary.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. And then if that resonates and you're fit and you actually do the program, then you also get a $400 supplement gift card as well to go with the program, which is amazing. And then Dane was telling me that the program includes three months of private coaching, and it's also a lifetime membership. Anything else you'd like to share about the program?

Dane Johnson:
Yeah, the biggest thing is we're building what we needed when we were chronically sick and it's about impact. That's the number one thing is we know you need a coach, you need a private coach, someone who specializes in IBD. You can really help customize your plan and how it's working and all the ebbs and flows. And we want it to be a one -stop shop. So yeah, you get $400 gift card included. So if we tell you to take a supplement, we're going to be paying for it already. So we want you to feel really good integrity with what you're getting and why. And you'll be getting free access to my live trainings every week. You get free access to EFT tapping with Rachel Turner every week. And you can talk to the whole community forever on your mobile or your desktop, all other members with IBD. It's a one of a kind where I think you're really going to be excited about it. We hope you take a look if you have IBD and you need support.

Melanie Avalon:
So amazing. I'm excited. So again, so listeners, the link for that is ifpodcast .com slash shield. So definitely check that out for that incredible generous gift. Dane, thank you so much. This was so amazing. I know we've like had this on the book for months and months. So it was so wonderful and beautiful to finally connect with you. And I'm just so excited to see everything, everything that you continue to do in the world. I can't thank you enough.

Dane Johnson:
Thank you for having me, Melanie. Amazing conversation. God bless. I hope everyone learned a ton today and let's move forward with positivity, optimism, integrity, and let's change the world. Thank you for having me. 

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 363 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

MD LOGIC: Upgrade your gut health and well-being with MD Logic Health’s Dr.'s Choice Probiotic. Packed with Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria strains, it's designed to support your gastrointestinal, immune health and much more. Dr.'s Choice Probiotic is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference and use code BCMelanie for 30% off the 10th Annual Biohacking Conference Tickets. Ends March 31st (drops to 25% after that) 

Intermittent Fasting: Does It Affect Sports Performance? A Systematic Review

Metabolic Switching: An Intermittent Fasting Revolution with Dr. Mark Mattson - Part 1

Listener Q&A: Jennifer - What foods/supplements WON’T break a fast?

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Episode 354: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Cold Plunges, Dopamine Fasting, Spermidine, Follistatin Gene Therapy, Sex, Fertility, And More!

Episode 358: Special Guest: Dave Asprey, Coffee, Minerals, Adrenal Fatigue, Wine, Coffee Enemas, Coffee Shops, Traveling, And More!

Listener Q&A: Xenia - My doctor told me to stop 16:8 IF when I had serious bloating issue... (then Emily said why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet, it is a lifestyle and once you see all the benefits you won't want to stop and Sacy said In my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips. Tweak the food.

FOOD SENSE GUIDE: Get Melanie's App At Melanieavalon.com/foodsenseguide To Tackle Your Food Sensitivities! Food Sense Includes A Searchable Catalogue Of 300+ Foods, Revealing Their Gluten, FODMAP, Lectin, Histamine, Amine, Glutamate, Oxalate, Salicylate, Sulfite, And Thiol Status. Food Sense Also Includes Compound Overviews, Reactions To Look For, Lists Of Foods High And Low In Them, The Ability To Create Your Own Personal Lists, And More!

Episode 347: Special Guest: Vince Ojeda, Gut Health, Food Sensitivities, Food Allergies, Dysbiosis, Fasting Mimicking, Elimination Protocols, IgG, IgE, IgE4, IgM, CD3, Food Antigens, And More!

Go To Victus88.Com And Use The Discount Code MELANIEAVALON For $55 Off Victus88 Testing!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 363 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing wonderfully. How are you? I'm good. I had a meeting where I thought about you so much. Like, it was like a Vanessa meeting. Like, you needed to be there to experience it, I will tell you. Yeah, I don't know. We're currently designing packaging for my spirulina supplement. I know why you're talking about me. So I really just want to make the packaging like vibrant and beautiful and eye -catching, and, you know, all the things. So the design call meeting, it was like me and Scott, our partner at Empty Logic, and then like the whole design team. And so I had gathered like a lot of pictures of inspiration for like colors and, you know, the vibe I was feeling. And I found this picture of a mermaid. So for listeners, I just texted this mermaid to Vanessa so she can see it while I tell her the story. Did it come through?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, that's beautiful.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so I saw this picture and the reason I love this mermaid is because because I want to make like a lot of supplements in the spirulina line like a spirulina and chlorella and a blend so I was like oh we can use like part of these colors for one we can use part of the mermaid colors for the other and we can kind of do all the colors for the blend and in my head before the meeting I was like I mean I would like to just do the mermaid honestly on the package but that's too I can't do mermaid like what who am I kidding so then we get on the phone call I like bring up this mermaid I'm like talking about the colors and then Scott Scott makes a comment I made like a throwaway comment like I would love to just have the mermaid like haha jokey jokey and then Scott was like well Starbucks is a mermaid and you know that does fine I was like oh door open you're right so then I was like the funny thing about the call was so Scott and I are like team mermaid the whole rest of the team they're like not no I'm not feeling it I kept being like these colors but like can we have the mermaid and then Scott Scott knew the team would like not really be down with it so he was trying to like hint at it without like really supporting it so he'd be like you know Melanie how do you feel about the mermaid and like we just kept like dancing around the mermaid like people and like Scott and I weren't sure like I wasn't sure if Scott really wanted the mermaid and Scott wasn't really sure like if I seriously wanted the mermaid but we were like trying to read each other out and we kind of thought we were on the same page so it was just like this whole thing about like the mermaid and isn't the mermaid amazing yes cuz cuz on the call they're like we can't do the mermaid I'm like what but can we do the mermaid are they gonna do the mermaid so now I've just decided that we have to do the mermaid like I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make this mermaid happen I've named her essence so beautiful do you know do you have like the artists and everything well that's the thing that was half the call we're like who created this mermaid and because I am because the name of the file is like a lot of numbers and I googled that and I couldn't find the original file but then I went through my initial like it was months ago but I was like I'm gonna find this mermaid so I tried to Google but I originally googled and I tried to like click on the pictures I had clicked on cuz you know like you click on the pictures and then it gives you more pictures and you click on the pictures it gives you more pictures so I sound it that way like going through the tunnel of Google Images it's AI and did you know that AI artwork cannot be copyrighted

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because Pete my husband's been using it a lot to make graphics for his articles And I'm like so you own this right like it's basically yours. We were just talking about this at dinner I was like, I'm pretty sure that that it's just yours. You can just use it

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like you can just use it but nobody owns it so like anybody can use it.

Vanessa Spina:
Right. So that's kind of like someone else could could take it and do it as well. But that's like, pretty low risk.

Melanie Avalon:
So I found the Etsy store that was selling like the high -res version and I was messaging them and I was I was like I don't want to like give off any flags. I was like, how do I like message and be like, is this copyrighted? I was like so worried. I was gonna do that. They were gonna like take it down and like Copyright it. Yeah, so fun fact ai artwork No copyrights. There might be a mermaid in the future somewhere

Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's funny because when I first opened the image, I was wondering if it was AI just because we were like looking at AI images over dinner that my husband was making. So it's like, yeah, it totally looks

Melanie Avalon:
that way. Did he find some programs that he likes online for that?

Vanessa Spina:
He's using something. I'm not sure what I, when I do it, it does a similar result and I'm using Canva, like there's a plug -in in Canva for it. This whole world of AI is... You would love this. I've been doing it with Luca, so like I did this only a couple times, like I was sitting on the couch with him and I was like, what do you want to see? And he was like, a rainbow choo -choo train by the river in Prague. So like we did that and it made a rainbow choo -choo train in Prague. You know, so we just like, we went through like three or four different pictures and he would just tell me whatever he wanted to see and it would, you know, make the image. So it was really with him. Yeah, I thought of you and I was like, Melanie would love this.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm smiling so much. That's like a whole other level of raising children, you know?

Vanessa Spina:
He's gonna grow up with this just being a thing like he just speaks into existence whatever he wants and it's there

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa. That's crazy. Oh my goodness. I love that. Well, on that note, anything new in your life? That's my mermaid update.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean mostly just baby life like everything is baby life. We're going to Spain next Sunday for a couple weeks because my parents are there so every year they come and spend some time in Spain and we go there and you know it's such a great place for kids like there's so many playgrounds. Every morning we just get up go to a playground there's usually a boardwalk by the beach there's so many different beaches and stuff there and there's always playgrounds like some have like big pirate ships and all kinds of stuff so Luca's really excited to see his grandparents to go on the airplane he's going to have his own seat like he just talks about it every single day how excited he is to go there and we're excited just to get some like nice weather like it started to be spring here but it's going to be a lot warmer and like have some beach days and stuff so it'll be really fun to go there for a couple weeks.

Melanie Avalon:
You know what's really interesting about that is with the playgrounds thing. So when you say that I immediately get so many memories to playgrounds. When I was growing up, they're all the playgrounds we would go to in Europe.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, that's funny. Yeah, there's there's a lot. I mean, I'm sure Germany is similar, you know, to Spain and Prague, there's a playground, like on every corner, there's just so many, it's endless, which is really great when you have little, little kids.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just getting so many memories. Like the playgrounds, they're like sturdy. They're like magical and they're like sturdy.

Vanessa Spina:
super colorful like there's this one that we go to in Spain that's just rainbow like it's total rainbow and every every part of it is a different you know rainbow color and Luca loves running around and saying all the colors names and yeah it's it's really fun so I'm really excited to get some travel in it's been a while since we went anywhere because I haven't been able to travel for a while so I'm excited for that.

Melanie Avalon:
Right, and you're the little travel bee.

Vanessa Spina:
Speaking of which, we said we were going to talk about your trip to London, so...

Melanie Avalon:
did it. And long story short for listeners, true story. So I supposed to go to London for like, how many days, three days or four days. I ended up, I went to Thanksgiving dinner, I came home. So I literally went for like a dinner.

Vanessa Spina:
It's, this is the most Melanie thing I've ever heard. I love it. And I know you did it twice, and then you were like, this is my new thing. I'm just gonna go places for a day.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I'm all about it. I'm all about it. Like I can do anything for a day. And you know, I have these moments. I mean, I know I'm an adult and I know I've been an adult for a while, which is weird. But like, you know, you have these moments where like, oh, I'm an adult. I had that moment. I like got back from the Thanksgiving dinner, which was fabulous. I went to see Charlotte Fox Weber. She's a guest. I found the Melanie Avalon biohacking podcast. I adore her. In any case, I went for a Thanksgiving party. So I like went to the party. I got back to my hotel that night and I was sitting in the hotel lobby and I was just so I had like a blast. But like I wanted to get back to work like I, I didn't want to like just like hang out in London for a few days by myself and not be working. So I was sitting in the lobby like probably like one or two am and I was like, Wait a minute. Because the first I was like, I'm still gonna be here for a few days. I was like, Wait a minute, I can fly back tomorrow. Like I can do that. Like I can change my flight. I can leave this hotel. I felt so adult. That's amazing. And so I did. And that's when I got COVID. Yeah, I felt so bad for you. You were so sick. Yeah, so it was a fun time. And now I do the Monday trips. Now I've done quite a few of them. And they're more to come.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so freeing, you know, I mean, we talk a lot about on this podcast about finding the thing that works for you, you know, trying different things, knowing yourself. And that's just like such a perfect example of it. Cause you know, in the past you may have said no to trips cause you didn't want to do all the travel or be gone for a long time. But now that, you know, you can just go for a day, like opens up this whole world of possibilities for

Melanie Avalon:
travel for you. It's amazing. And then I want to slowly, like, extend the days that I'm there, but, you know, work on that aspect. But, yeah, because people think what's bothering me is, like, the travel part or, you know, the travel part. But I'm like, no, the travel part's fine. It's like being away from—I just don't feel good with, like, my food and my digestion and my sleep and all of that for multiple days, but I can suck it up for a day.

Vanessa Spina:
It's a part of travel. I mean, a lot of people I you probably so many people listening to this have the experience of when their travel like they just don't go to the bathroom for like several days and stuff like, which is why for me, I always take magnesium citrate with me the magnesium calm, because like that usually doesn't happen for me, but if it does, like I'm not concerned, but so many people, I'll talk to they'll be like, Yeah, I went to Mexico and I like didn't go to the bathroom for a week. Like, oh my god.

Melanie Avalon:
So that freaks me out, like it freaks me out.

Vanessa Spina:
But it's such a common thing that when people travel, it like, you know, you're eating different foods, you're in different environments, there's different bacteria, like, it does affect most people's digestion, some people not at all, or just a little bit, and some people a lot. So you're not the only person, like, it's a very common part of traffic.

Melanie Avalon:
And actually, I'm so glad we're talking about this because I did want to talk about something for the listeners related to it. I was thinking a lot of the bowel movement issues are about it messing up your circadian rhythm with the travel because so much of that is tied to your circadian rhythm. I hadn't done an international trip since I've been fasting, so this was my first international trip with fasting. I didn't really have any jet lag. I implemented my theory I've been talking about for so long but hadn't personally implemented. I mean, I do it domestically, but that's only a few hours difference. I did it for this trip, and I don't want to say zero jet lag, but I don't remember having any jet lag. So basically, my protocol was I just ate my... So I do a one meal a day with a later meal, like a dinner meal. So the night before traveling, because I had a late night flight out, I stayed up super late, like more later than normal, had a massive meal like normal, slept in really late, went to the airport on the night flight, and then I just fasted the whole flight over. And then when I got to London, it was the morning. By the time I got to my hotel, it was the afternoon. I still didn't eat, so I was still fasted, and I just fasted till dinner. And then at dinnertime, I had an early dinner, and then I went to bed, and then it was completely normal the next day. And then on the way back, I did the same thing. I just did my normal dinner before the flight, and then I flew home the next morning, and then I fasted the whole flight, and then I ate dinner when I got back, and then I was completely normal the next day. Like zero. Besides the actual day landing there, where I was a little bit tired, there was zero jet lag. That's it.

Vanessa Spina:
That's great. That's what I always do. I usually fast on flying because it's easy. It's easy.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and you can use your meals as an anchor, basically, to sync up your circadian rhythm to the new time zone. So if your body is accustomed to thinking, I eat this at this time, I eat this at dinner, I eat this at breakfast, I eat this at lunch, then it automatically, when you eat that meal again in that time zone, in that time zone's time for that meal, it just syncs you up. So, yeah, team fasting for jet lag.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I mean, my biggest thing for jet lag is just as soon as I land, say I land in Europe, is getting outside and getting as much light on myself as possible and going for a long walk. And I think that that's probably been helpful because it is helping you sync up with the wavelengths of light at that time of day, which is then triggering different hormones, you know, and helping you, you know, make melatonin more later and helping you with all that. So, yeah, that I think the light and the meals are two of the biggest things you can do to really help. I think that's

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing, yes. And then my little hack that I have discovered, I don't know if I told you this, but one of the things I miss the most with travel is my cooling mattress. Like I have to have my cooling mattress. Have I told you my solution to this? No. Because you can't travel with a cooling mattress, but here's what you do. Are you ready? I love this so much. So you go, I always go to Whole Foods, which they, it is so nice that there's Whole Foods in Europe. I was like, oh, I feel like I'm at home.

Vanessa Spina:
The whole thing I do, if I go to Austin, I go to Whole Foods. If I go to London, I go to Whole Foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Although it's like different in the European whole foods. I was like, stuff is like different here, but in any case. So I always get the, they have like the whole foods brand leader glass bottles of water. So I always stock up on that water because that's why I drink at home. And then if I travel, I stock up on it to drink there. But if you get a mini fridge in the hotel room, keep the water in the mini fridge. And then at night when you're sleeping, you get out one of those really cold waters and you kind of cuddle it like it's a stuffed animal and like it keeps you really cold. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then you come out. So like, so you cuddle it and you want to get it by your like core so that it's like cooling you down. And then, you know, if you wake up like a few hours and it's warm, you just swap it out with a new cold, cold one and cuddle it again.

Vanessa Spina:
That's amazing. I mean, most people cuddle with a hot water bottle and you go with an ice cold bottle of water. I love it. Like you're such a cold girl. It's really in your DNA. Do you think it's in your DNA or do you think it's something that you have like trained yourself because you know all the benefits of cold?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, like growing up like in high school and like I would always like I love the heat and I love tanning and but I also was always hot like my mom would always be like, wear a coat and be like, I'm fine. I like feeling not inflamed, which is why the cold makes me feel. So I don't know. That's a good question. How about you?

Vanessa Spina:
For me, I definitely have trained myself. Like I never liked being cold growing up. I think it's because I under ate protein. But now I'm the person I was the person who was always cold. I think I was under eating calories a lot and I was under eating protein. And now I'm the person who's always too warm. Like I walking around in t shirts. It's not that warm here, but it's been we've been getting a little bit of spring sun and I've been out in t shirts. We went ice skating. Last weekend, we took Luca for the first time and I was in a t shirt the whole time. You know, and I love that. Like I love the feeling of the cold air, but I have made myself deliberately more cold adapted. And I also love that I've made myself cold adapted because I feel like it's a superpower that I'd much rather be wanting to, you know, cool off and to enjoy cold exposure, especially because I know how beneficial it is. You know, in the morning I go outside and stand in the sun or do some grounding and it's freezing cold, but it feels amazing to me. And I much prefer that to when I was a teenager, you know, we did a ton of winter sports and I was always freezing. Like I was always cold and resisting the cold, you know, and not enjoying it. Whereas now, you know, I love it and I love that you can make yourself more cold adapted. So I'm one of those people who will make myself learn to love and embrace things because I know that they're good for me. And I think that that's like, it's kind of a cool thing to be able to do, but it's definitely, it's probably in our DNA, you know, but we like moved away from it towards comfort for so long. And then when you realize that it's better to embrace these things, then maybe you go back more to like how we're originally optimized.

Melanie Avalon:
is for? I think, no, I think it's so true. I had that moment recently where I was like, oh, this does feel like a superpower. Because I was reflecting on how, I was reflecting on how whenever I have guests back to my apartment, even if they're like men who you would think would be like, you know, resilient, because I keep my apartment cold, like cold. And all the men who have come over here are like, freezing. And I'm like, I'm fine. And I was like, thinking about it, I'm like, I, this is like a superpower, you know, I'm like, resilient, I can like handle the elements, even though I can't really handle the elements. But I love the cold, team cold over here. Quick travel plug for people, if they would like to come hang out with me. Oh, speaking of travel, Vanessa, you should come to the biohacking conference in Dallas. Is it happening already again? It's in May. Yes. Wow, that's crazy. I'm excited. So it's going to be so amazing. It's at the end of May, through the beginning of April, it's like three days. So look at me, I'm going to be there more than one day. Definitely come. There's so many guests I've had on the podcast. So I was looking at the lineup, it's people like Paul Saladino, Dr. Mercola, Sarah Gottfried, Anna Kebecke, there's like so many people. And then there's this massive expo where you can try all the health and biohacking things, meet all the people. We can hang out. So please come listeners. And if you're coming, please let me know so that we can meet. So if you go to melanieavilon .com slash biohacking conference, oh, and this is Dave Asprey's biohacking conference, by the way. So he'll be there as well. Use the coupon code BCMelanie and that coupon code will get you a massive discount. I think when this airs, it'll be a 30% discount. So again, melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference, coupon code BCMelanie, please come hang out. I will be there and we'll have so much fun. So I think that's all the things. And then one last plug for people, we are about to close out our special giveaway we're doing for the show. So this is a chance to win the entire AvalonX line, Vanessa's Tone Protein, and a special surprise from MD Logic. So you will win, are you ready? You will win my Sera Peptase, which is great to take in the fasted state. It really helps support your fast because it helps you break down problematic proteins, sort of like what autophagy does. So it helps with inflammation, clears your sinuses, clears your brain fog. Studies have shown it can reduce cholesterol, it can reduce amyloid plaque, in vitro and in vivo. Again, animal studies, but still pretty cool. So you'll get that. You'll get my Magnesium 8, which is a broad -spectrum magnesium blend because most people are deficient in magnesium. That's great for muscle recovery, sleep, just energy overall. You'll get my Magnesium Nightcap, which is a special type of magnesium, which crosses the blood -brain barrier. It helps with memory and mood, as well as sleep and relaxation. You will get my berberine, which is amazing for blood sugar control. If you're really trying to optimize your fasting and your eating and take charge of your metabolic health, berberine is incredible for that. When I wear a CGM, I see a massive difference in my blood sugar response when I am taking my berberine, specifically. I've compared it to other berberines. You will get Vanessa's Tone Protein. Vanessa, would you like to tell them about your tone protein?

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to. Well, first of all, it tastes absolutely delicious because it's flavored with a vanilla bean. And everyone says they absolutely love taking everyday look forward to it as a special treat, but it's also scientifically optimized to help you build muscle and get toned and lean. So it's enhanced with leucine. So you know that you're triggering muscle protein synthesis with every serving. So it's scientifically formulated for optimal muscle growth and it also tastes delicious.

Melanie Avalon:
So you will get that and we recorded an episode episode before last all about the awesome benefits of protein actually before workouts how you can still burn equal amounts of fat as fasting as with protein prior to a workout so that's prior to a workout but also that protein would be great for refueling after a workout and Vanessa is the best of the best for formulation so you definitely definitely want that tone protein you will also get a special surprise from one of MD logics favorite supplements I'm not sure what they're going to throw in but I'm sure it will be awesome they have a wide broad range of supplements so if you would like to win all of that which is worth definitely a couple hundred bucks go to apple podcast subscribe to the show and write a brief review if you've already written a review before no worries you can update your old review to update it for something new and sparkly or you could create a new account and write a new review we would really love that but in any case do that and send a screenshot of the review to questions at if podcast .com and we will enter you to win the prize which is really really awesome so again subscribe brief review on apple podcasts or update your old review send us a screenshot to questions at ifodcast .com and you will win avallonix sarah peptase magnesium 8 magnesium nightcap berberine vanessa's tone protein and something special from MD logic all of that is worth a couple hundred bucks super awesome yeah okay shall we get into some fasting stuff for today I would love to answer some questions before that I have a really fun little quick review I was going to share a study it's actually just a review but it's from January 2024 so it's pretty new and it is a systemic review published in nutrients and it's called intermittent fasting does it affect sports performance a systemic review so the purpose of the study was to investigate whether or not intermittent fasting affects performance and professional athletes they wanted to look on the effects of aerobic and anaerobic exercise strength and power body composition including fat mass muscle mass and weight and see how intermittent fasting affected all of that the majority of the studies they looked at were time restricted feeding with a 16 hour fasting window and an eight hour feeding window there were a couple that were 14 eight hour fasting and those were primarily in Ramadan and they did look at one that looked at just quote overnight fasting their conclusion was. So looking at all the reviews, they found that first of all, they said that they could affirm that intermittent fasting of any type metabolically affects the body composition in a positive way. So it helps with body weight specifically. They said that it's a adequate nutritional strategy to reduce body fat percentage to a good number for the athlete. So that number is between 6% to 12% body fat for men and 12% to 18% body fat for women while, and this is key, maintaining muscle mass. So I think that is just so, so important. They also found that studies showed that fasting patients had greater adherence than other dietary approaches. So basically it's fasting is something that you can really stick to and is good for the long term. And interestingly, they actually found that in general, the fasting was actually more effective in the medium and long term than in the short term. And I just want to focus on this for a second because so often when we think of things like dieting or calorie restriction, it's always said that, yeah, it works in the short term, but not in the long term. Well, they actually found literally the opposite, which is what we want, that fasting is more effective in the medium and the long term than the short term, which I thought was super cool. They found that in general fasting improves metabolic health and insulin sensitivity and glucose and lipid metabolism. So that's sugar and fat metabolism in the body, all in ways that would be beneficial for the athlete. In particular, it seems to have a beneficial effect on adiponectin hormone, which low levels of adiponectin are actually associated with obesity, oxidative stress, and insulin resistance. So they found a good effect there. And they found that fasting does not negatively affect sports performance. And I already said this, but that it does improve body composition. So takeaway, again, this is a review from January 2024, but their findings were that fasting is basically a really good approach for professional athletes. Any comments there, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I think that's amazing. I mean, there's so many detractors about intermittent fasting. And yet I know when I was interviewing Dr. Mark Madsen, who's sort of one of the founders of intermittent fasting, he did some of the early research on it. And he found, you know, that it was amazing for, you know, BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor, and that it was helping the athletes at his university. And he was really wanting to put their whole university track team on intermittent fasting, because he, he personally saw that with his running, that it was improving it. And he was like, we're going to be, you know, unbeatable if my, if the whole track team does intermittent fasting, but you know, he, he couldn't do it with the students there. But I remember him saying that, you know, he thought it was like the super powerful athletes for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
That's so amazing. I love anecdotes like that. I need to, how many times have you interviewed him, Dr. Mattson?

Vanessa Spina:
Just once, I did one interview with him on the optimal protein podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, very cool. And he's like a legend in the fasting sphere. He's done so much, so much research with fasting. So that's amazing. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think he's one of the main reasons that intermittent fasting took off in the first place is definitely his research. That's incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
So, okay, and we'll put a link in the show notes to Vanessa's episode with Dr. Matson so people can check that out. And okay, shall we jump into some questions for today? Yes, I would love to. So to start things off, we have a question from Jennifer. We get questions like this all the time, but it's always nice to revisit and kind of just give an overview or approach to it. So she wants to know what foods slash supplements won't break a fast. She says she takes collagen powder, MCT oil, omega -3 oil, and she's read that a tablespoon of cream might be okay, but is any of that true?

Vanessa Spina:
So my personal golden rule with this is basically anything that has any calories in it or that's going to stimulate any anabolic processes or building or growth processes is not suitable for fasting because you want to only be in that catabolic or breakdown mode when you're in fasted mode. And so you are activating the AMPK pathway, which is associated with the longevity and health benefits that are provided from doing fasting. So I personally think, you know, if you're ever in doubt, just ask yourself, does this have any calories in it? So that means there are actually some supplements that you can take fasted as long as they don't say take with food on them because they don't have any calories at all. And they're not triggering any anabolic processes. But if we look at your list, for example, you know, collagen powder, does it have calories in it? Yes. So it does break a fast MCT oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. Omega three oil. Does it have calories in it? Yes. So we'll break it fast. So cream does have calories definitely will break it fast. So I think that one of the reasons there's a lot of confusion about this is because there are people who follow sort of the, you know, four different forms of fasting and keto, like the bulletproof sort of coffee kind of thing where, you know, that was always advocated as, well, this won't break your fast because it doesn't have any carbs in it. So in a sense, you know, there are people who advocate for fat fasts where, okay, we know that you're really not triggering as much insulin as if you're having carbs or protein. That's definitely true. But if it has calories in it, then in my opinion, you're taking the body out of the fasted state. So that's kind of, I'm pretty black and white on it. And that's how I tend to look at things. So being in the fasted state, for me, you know, there are things that you can get away with, like mostly water, plain tea, element, unflavored, I think it's called the raw element, which is basically just the electrolytes, you know, those things don't have calories in them. And they're not stimulating any growth pathways, anything anabolic. So what about you, Melanie?

Melanie Avalon:
Three thoughts to it. One, if listeners would like free element, you can go to drinklmnt .com slash if podcast, that will get you a free sample pack, which will include that raw unflavored one. So definitely that would be a great supplement for your fast, the raw unflavored, which actually brings me to the second point, which is like an element sample pack, you also get all the other flavors. And so those are an example of something that is non caloric, so no calories, but they have a, like a sweet taste to them. I consider that breaking a fast, even though it's non caloric, which I love Vanessa's pillar about the calories, even though it's non caloric, it's sending signals to your body of flavor and food and sweetness, which can affect your insulin and you know, have a hormonal effect from there. So I basically do the two pillars like the calorie pillar that Vanessa talked about, and then does it evoke sweetness or the taste of food, even if it's non caloric. That's a really simple way to like two pillars to look at. But the third thing I thought about was, I guess we haven't recorded since I recorded the in person podcast with Dave for this show, right? That was also before. Yes, we have not recorded together, right? Yes, that's right. Crazy. I was thinking about it because you mentioned bulletproof. And also I asked Dave, so I'll put links in the show notes to the episodes that I did with Dave. But I asked him, you know, this question, of course, he has a very opinionated, intense opinion about this, which is a little bit contrary to what we said. That was crazy. I forgot, Vanessa, have you done in person podcasts before?

Vanessa Spina:
I have been a couple, but I was being interviewed, so it wasn't me interviewing like you did. you

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was like, this is a whole like, this is a whole another experience. Having to, it was a lot. It was a lot to take in. Because being interviewed, like you said, is one thing, but you're you're just answering the questions. But I was like, prepping and I had my notes, but it was like on camera. And it was with Dave Asprey, who's like a legend. And it was like a lot to take in and I was traveling for it. So but it was a magical time. So listeners, definitely, definitely check it out. I want to do more in person podcasts now, actually, which is crazy. It inspired me. So Okie Dokie, I think we answered that question. Shall we go on to Zena's question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So Xenia from Facebook says, my doctor told me to stop 16, eight intermittent fasting when I had a serious bloating issue. He couldn't tell me why I had a bloating issue. I did some tests and just minor stomach inflammation, but he said that I should stop 16, eight intermittent fasting, but I'm seeing people having all kinds of benefits from intermittent fasting, including fixing gut issues. And what if I start having weight gain after discontinuing with IF? What should I do? Then Emily said, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. Stacy said, in my experience, bloating was food related. Think carbs like pasta, bread, chips, tweak the food.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So I love this question from Zinnia. I love the feedback that listeners provided as well. Okay, so Zinnia went to her doctor and her doctor said to stop IF because of her bloating. This doesn't really make sense to me. Okay, I have a few different thoughts. One, the actual fasted process itself is like Zinnia mentioned, healing for the gut. She's saying that she's heard the benefits of IF including fixing gut issues. So resting the gut is a great chance for it to heal and repair itself. Any bloating you would get from the actual fast would probably, and I reserve the right to be not completely comprehensive or adjust if new information comes out. But from my current understanding, really the only bloating that would be caused by fasting itself, not the eating on the flip side, but by the actual fasting would be a sort of die -off that people can get. So if you're starving some bad gut microbes, they can get a little bit unhappy and they can release metabolic byproducts which might contribute to bloating. That would be temporary though if you are fixing your gut, working on your foods, addressing your microbiome. So that would be a temporary thing and it's not something where you need to stop fasting. Now, if you get bloating while fasting, it's probably from kind of like what the listeners were like Stacy was saying with being the food related. It's probably from the food you're eating after the fasting and it could be accentuated or made a little bit worse because in the fasting pattern, you might now be eating a larger bolus of food at once than you were before. So before if you were eating just throughout the day, you would be constantly digesting that food at more of a baseline compared to fasting. And then if you're eating like a large bolus of food, you might be getting some digestive distress from that. So it could be just the actual load of the food being too much for you and or the actual foods that you're eating may be problematic and maybe eating them in a larger amount at once is a problem. So some ways to address that, I mean, two big pillars there. One, digestive support can be amazing. So taking some HCL, which is basically like our stomach acid and you can get it in supplement form that can really help with digestion, especially for digestion of protein. And you know, we're all about the high protein meals around here. And then digestive enzymes can be really great to help break down just all the things. I actually, Teaser probably will have a line out for this in the future. Right now what I currently take, I use pure encapsulations for their digestive enzymes and their HCL. So you can try that. And then also the actual foods you're eating, the bloating is probably caused by the foods you're eating or an extension, the foods, how they're being digested and metabolized by your gut bacteria, which are affected by the foods you're eating as well. So it all kind of like goes full circle. So I would really, I wouldn't stop IF, look at your food choices and try to find what you do digest. Going on an elimination diet temporarily can be really helpful for that. Definitely get my app FoodSense Guide. That's at melonieavilon .com slash FoodSense Guide. I'm happy to announce it is now free. It used to be a paid app, but I actually made it free. So you can subscribe beyond that for other features in it, but there is a free version. So that is a comprehensive guide to over 300 foods. And it'll show you what different potentially problematic food compounds are high in each food. So you can kind of see like, oh, if I'm reacting to, you know, these foods, you can like see what compounds they're high in. And it might turn out that you have a problem with FODMAPs or you have a problem with lectins or you have a problem with histamine. So that might be a valuable tool. Also taking something I love to help with this that has been incredible for my bloating has been to, well, for me to a low FODMAP diet. So I use my FoodSense Guide app for that. And then having my fast and then ending my fast. There's this supplement. I want to make my own version one day. It's called Dr. Danielle Gut Assist. I have tried a lot of different leaky gut support powders. And they usually have some combination of glutamine with some other things. I love this one. I literally, I've tried so many. So it has L -glutamine, it has D -glycerinated licorice extract, which I've tried that one by itself as well. But I like it in this blend. It has some aloe and it has some arabino -galactin. So I take that as a supplement at the end of my fast. And I found that really, really helps my overall digestion and bloating. So to recap, Zinnia, I would not stop the, I mean, I don't want to go against your doctor. So work with your practitioner or find a new one. I would keep going with the bloating and then kind of like, so Stacy talked about the food -related things. And then Emily was saying, why would you discontinue IF? It isn't a diet. It's a lifestyle. And once you see all the benefits, you won't want to stop. I do think that a lot of listeners and people, IF becomes a lifestyle for them. And all of that said, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Vanessa's eating window in the past. That said, don't feel like you have to be on one certain type of fasting forever and ever. Like you should feel free and the ability to change around your fasting window. So I think the best of both worlds is seeing fasting as a lifestyle and also knowing you have flexibility within that to change and adapt accordingly. So I don't think we ever want like a fear mindset or over restriction or anything like that. So I just want to encourage that mindset surrounding all of that. I also have thoughts about the weight gain after discontinuing. But Vanessa, do you have any thoughts about the bloating and all the things?

Vanessa Spina:
I think you entered it really thoroughly. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the waking.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just going to say to that that like people really get, you know, worried about weight gain after discontinuing with IF and well, A, goes back to IF can be a lifestyle and it's always in your back pocket and you can always keep doing it. But having this fear about weight gain, I just really want to empower people that you can always, even if you're not doing fasting, you can always make food choices that support your body and you don't have to gain weight. And I know that sounds like really simple and simplistic, so maybe I'll elaborate on it a little bit more, but so say you do stop fasting and you go back to eating throughout the day. Your body requires a certain amount of nutrients and calories every single day and you don't have to be restrictive to maintain, especially if you're making whole foods choices and focusing on protein, there's just so much potential basically in your food choices. And when you get out of the mindset of like, it's all about calories and if I eat this amount of calories or if I'm eating at these times, I'm going to gain weight, I would just try to add some comfort in that focus on what you can have and, you know, try to not focus on the fear mindset about gaining weight. Think about things that like if you focus on protein, for example, that's going to fill you up, especially lean protein and lean protein itself does not easily become fat. I mean, we even talked about a study recently where fueling with lean protein before exercise, people still burn fat similar to fasted exercise, which is so, so mind blowing. So focusing on foods that don't even normally become fat, so eating protein and then eating whole foods that, you know, require, they require energy to be broken down. They have a thermogenic effect. They're not just easily shuttled into fat. I just want to encourage people to, to kind of lose that fear if they can. Yeah, that was a lot of thoughts. Any, any thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Just I guess the last note that I would say about the bloating is I really recommend trying an elimination protocol. And for me, I did that for a month doing carnivore, you don't have to do it for a whole month, but carnivore diet, just eating mostly meat, I think you did it recently for like, almost two weeks, like 10 days. It's a period of time where you can just only give your body something that generally does not cause much bloating for people. And what I found is that when I did only meat, then I was able to reintroduce certain plant foods, and I was able to see what actually did cause bloating for me. And after I figured out what that was, like for me, it was a lot of cruciferous vegetables, a lot of the cabbage family, broccoli, cauliflower, you know, a lot of times people eat these foods because we're told they have anti cancer properties, and they're really good for you. And a lot of people incorporate them into your diet. But for me, it was causing me so much bloating. And as soon as I figured out what it was, I was able to, you know, reintroduce other foods, and not have to deal with bloating anymore. So I think that elimination protocols can be really helpful to sort of figure out if there is something that you're habitually consuming that is actually causing bloating for you. And it's a food sometimes that you may not think it is. And it could surprise you. But then once you figure it out, then, you know, you don't have to deal with bloating anymore, which, you know, I've been free of bloating for four or five years now since I figured that out. And I know from having dealt with it in the past, how uncomfortable and stressful it is, and it may not be being caused by food. I'm glad you're seeing a specialist about it to figure out the root cause of it. But elimination protocols can be really powerful, you know, for figuring that out.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm so glad you talked about that because that reminded me of an incredible resource for listeners. So we had the founders of Victus88 on the show. This is the food sensitivity test. I am obsessed with friends, so I was always looking for a food sensitivity test that would actually show you what you were sensitive to. Because most of them just look at IgG or IgM, which isn't the full picture, they actually look at the full picture, which is not just IgG and IgM, your immune reactions, but these two really important things called C3D as well as IgG4. And basically, I don't want to get all in the nuance and the weeds of it, but basically what they do is they show you what your body is actually reacting to. And then they show you if your body has created tolerance because it's possible that you're having an IgG or an IgE response. And I said that earlier, I think I said IgM, they look at IgG, IgE, IgG4, and C3D. They show you not only are you responding to a certain food, but is your body either A, have tolerance, so it's actually not a problem, or B, are you only responding a little bit, but your body is amplifying that response, and that's what that C3D response is. So that was a lot of letters. It's a mind -blowing test, and I think it really helps show listeners what foods may or may not be a problem, and even on the meat side of things. So when I did it, I found that I thought, oh, carnivore, any meat goes, but I found that I actually respond, for example, some I have zero response to, like pork is completely fine for me. Cod is fine. Shrimp is fine. Scallops, which I eat all the time, have a little bit of a response, but they have this complementary other aspect, which makes them be tolerant to it, which is so fascinating. But then I actually do have a little bit of reaction to chicken and beef, which made me sad. I was like, what? And also, people can find that addressing their that if they do multiple tests, addressing their gut health and their digestion, that they might adapt and change over time, which is incredible. So if you it's called Victus 88, you can get $55 off with the code Melanie Avalon. Just go to Melanie Avalon dot com slash Victus 88. That's B I C T U S eight eight. So that could be really, really eye opening for everybody to see what foods like literally see what foods there are problematic for them, like right here, right now. And then you can make actually walks you through a elimination. It gives you options like an intense elimination protocol to try or a more approachable elimination protocol where you just cut things out every few days. So it's really amazing. We'll put links to all that in the show notes. So I think that is all the things as a brief reminder for listeners. If you would like to win the entire avallonix line, as well as messes tone protein, as well as a special surprise from IndiLogic, go to Apple podcasts, write a brief review and subscribe or update your old review and send a screenshot of that to questions. I a podcast dot com. Another resource if you'd like to hang out with me and Dave Asprey and Paul Saladino and Dr. Sarah Gottfried and Anna Kebecke and so many guests I've had on my show. Definitely come to Dave Asprey's 10th annual biohacking conference in Dallas. It's this may be code B C. Melanie will get you 30% off at melanieavallon .com slash biohacking conference. You can get these show notes for today's show with links to all of this. So all these things I'm hitting you with, they'll all be in the show notes. They'll be at I a podcast dot com slash episode 363. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I a podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl and you can follow me on my new TikTok. Please come hang out with me there. I feel really lonely. So please come. That is Melanie Avalon biohacker. Whoo. Okay. I think that is all the things. Vanessa, this was so wonderful. Thank you for, I want to say thank you to Vanessa because she's like a champ. She's doing these recordings while having, you know, a newborn. So, so much gratitude to you for, for being here and this has been so amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
That's so sweet. I'm so happy to be back recording with you. I'm excited for us to get back to our regular recording schedule and just excited for, yeah, all the future episodes. I had so much on with you. Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I will talk to you next time.

Vanessa Spina:
next week. Sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing your review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and re -composed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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Welcome to Episode 362 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of chicken thighs, 2 lbs of ground beef, or 1 lb of premium steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: MD Logic’s Vitamin D3K2 is the ultimate vitamin D supplement for bones, immunity, and overall health and wellness! Derived from all natural vegan lichen, Md Logic’s D3K2 is tested multiple times for purity and potency, free of all problematic filters, and comes in a glass bottle! Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of chicken thighs, 2 lbs of ground beef, or 1 lb of premium steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off sitewide at mdlogichealth.com with code IFPodcast!

Luis' diet beginnings

High protein diets

Listener Q&A: Kathryn - I’ve heard that keto diets can actually raise cholesterol

Keto Macro Calculator for Free

Listener Q&A: Valory - Best way to incorporate when you have no gall bladder and are sensitive to high fat.

Intentionally breaking your ketosis

Listener Q&A: Aimee - Is it useful to our bodies if we aren't eating keto 7 days a week?

Recalibrating your palate

Listener Q&A: Emily - Can you truly lose fat and build muscle at the same time? And if so, what’s the most effective way to do both simultaneously?

Listener Q&A: Melanie - What is the best time to take Tone Protein surrounding exercise to support muscle recovery? Immediately after or can it be several hours later?

Fasted training

Listener Q&A: Valory - I go to the gym faithfully. I’ve completed 2 weight loss challenges where I lost weight but also muscle...

Listener Q&A: Nicole - Are they actually necessary if you don’t sweat and only fast from 12-19 hours

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - Are electrolytes just salt mostly? If I have high blood pressure is something like element safe? More salt related- is pink salt ok? Is Celtic the only “good salt”?

Potassium, calcium and insulin

Listener Q&A: Nydia - How many in a day can you drink??

Flavor development

Listener Q&A: Teresa - Anytime I go low carb my sleep suffers...

Listener Q&A: Nydia - Same here, if I go low carb my energy suffers, can’t sleep much. What kind of supplements should take?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 362 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here with a very, very special guest today, friends. I'm just so excited about this conversation. I have been following this man for years, like years and years and years. Ever since I really first started experimenting with ketogenic diet, a low -carb diet, and became really obsessed with the, quote, science of diet, I found the whole world of Ketogains, which is a massive, massive online community centered around, well, a lot of topics. But you can tell from the title, they talk a lot about the role of low -carbon ketogenic diets with bodybuilding, muscle preservation, building muscle. It's a really cool community. And so I had been in the groups for it, and I'd been listening to a lot of podcasts with the founder, Luis Villaseñor. I've heard a lot of shows that Luis has been on, and he has such a wealth of knowledge when it comes to all the topics that I just mentioned, as well as I know, friends, so many of you guys are mega, mega fans of Element that we talk about all the time on this show. Luis is also a founder of that company as well, as well as other companies. So I personally have so many questions for Luis, and then I asked in my Facebook group for questions for him, and got just a ton of questions. So we have a lot of different topics that we can definitely go in today's conversation. But Luis, thank you so much for being here.

Luis Villaseñor:
Thank you so much Melanie for having me.

Melanie Avalon:
So, and I was telling you before, but, um, I feel like we've met, but we really haven't met. This is our first time actually talking. So this is a really nice moment for me. Okay. So to start things off, your personal story, when did you first find the whole world of low carb and keto and what made you interested in that? And what was your experience pairing that with bodybuilding and weightlifting?

Luis Villaseñor:
training. It's actually a long story, but to make it the shortest abridged version is that when I was a kid, I was overweight, very much like the classic fat kid from school. I just tried to find a way to make myself healthier. My mother took me once to a dietitian and she was overweight and it didn't really resonate for me. How is this lady going to teach me or explain me how to lose weight when she hasn't managed herself? I've always been in that scenario where I try to learn by myself. If something doesn't make sense, I try to understand the whys. Let's say that just by myself lost weight in high school and then when I got into college, I wasn't really feeling myself in the sense that I actually changed a career, I changed from college, a little bit of a disappointment with a girlfriend. What happened was that I found myself not eating and I ended up anorexic and bulimic. I had lost the weight since I was a kid. From fat to chubby, then skinny, but I had started weightlifting. Then when I got into college and this happened to me, I basically lost all my muscle. I wasn't really energized. I recall I was counting calories, about 400 per day, just like a small salad.

Melanie Avalon:
400 calories.

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah, and basically what made me realize that I was doing this wrong was one time where I put a pair of jeans, and they were super short. They were up to my jeans, and I said, what happened with these jeans? Did they shrink? I realized that I was putting on my little brother's jeans, which he was eight years old at the time. They fit. For me, it was like, whatever I'm doing, this is wrong, and I'm going to kill myself. I was aware that I was eating very little, but it was just in the idea of I want to get thin, and I want to have a visible abs. I was chasing that idea of not eating and doing lots of cardio. At that moment, I remember that I started researching and saying, what do actual body builders do to get strong but stay lean? I started researching the internet. Just to give you a little bit of context, we're talking about 1999, 2000. There wasn't really the internet as we know it today. I actually had to go to the library in college and sit on a computer and do some research. I started to go to nutrition classes. I wasn't really studying nutrition. I studied business administration and then marketing, but I had some girlfriends that studied nutrition. I started to go to their classes and try to understand. Eventually, I found out in between some bulletin boards and bodybuilding bulletin boards about the body opus diet and the danducane diet and very similar approaches to keto, which led me to Lyle McDonald. I don't know if you're familiar with him.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes.

Luis Villaseñor:
So imagine that we're talking that, again, the 2000s, I was in these building boards with many fitness authorities or trainers speaking and engaging and learning from them. And then eventually, Lyle wrote his book, The Ketogenic Diet, which I bought and basically became my Bible. So I sort of started doing what he preached on his book and what I had read on the internet at that time, which was basically not the classical ketogenic diet that a lot of people understand and follow, which is a high fat, low protein, very low carbohydrate diet. Their approach was very much how can you build the most amount of muscle and stay lean without necessarily adding a huge amount of carbs. I wasn't really in the idea of the health benefits of keto and treat certain illnesses and inflammation and everything else. More so, more interested in the idea of being able to gain muscle while staying low carb and not gaining fat, of course, right? So I just started following the advice, following the diet. It resonated with me a lot because I love to eat very much that kind of stuff over others. And I started to realize slowly that whenever I ate carbs, cake, a donut, those kinds of things, they actually triggered me. And those were the things that triggered overeating. And then, of course, the bulimia and purging. And as long as I stayed eating whole foods, mostly protein, with the fat that comes along with it, I was very much stable and stable in all aspects of my life, like thinking, working, training, everything resonated and worked very well, right? And I can tell you that I stayed like that and did whatever I did at that time. And because I started to be a little bit vocal about the diet, but every time that I started speaking about it and asking questions, people were very weird about it. I have doctors in my family and they were like, what you're doing doesn't sound sane, or you're going to kill yourself. It's too much protein or too much cholesterol, take care of your heart, et cetera. So I started to sort of worry in the sense that, okay, maybe this is just for a short term or what's going to happen, et cetera. So I started to do even more research on the side. Let's say that I started to be like a closet nutritionist in a way just for me, right? And whatever happened during the time is just, okay, it's my responsibility. I'm going to learn it for me so that I can stay healthy. And at the time, not to worry in anyone else. So I just told everybody else that I was just doing like a very much low sugar diet because I was eating lots of salads and vegetables. So people don't really, didn't really judge me, but they also didn't understand why I ate like this. So I just started stopping telling them what I was doing, but still, you know, the doctors were always bugging me every time that we had Christmas parties and so on. If they asked me, it was like, oh, you're going to die. And it sort of became my joke where every year I took my blood tests to my aunt, which was a, which is a doctor is like, I'm not dead yet. Am I going to die next year? And she was like, I don't know, maybe, you know, and yeah. And then just to make the story short, what eventually happened is that I started publishing sort of what I had learned and helping people in the internet, especially on mainly on Reddit, Reddit, then on Facebook. And eventually that just led me to actually change careers, get a bachelor's in nutrition, get more certifications, do a little bit of research on my own. And I don't know how this actually ended up happening, but I sort of became good friends with very, like my heroes in a way, like Rob Wolf, Marxist, and a lot of people that are in the same space that also had shared experiences and knowledge. And that helped me go into the next level, get more clients, create more so a coaching company, which is what we have on Ketogains, help many people get much better. And then also, that's very much the basis for element, which was the classic recipe that I gave my clients whenever they started the transition to the diet. Right. And that's basically it. That's a short story.

Melanie Avalon:
So many things you touched on. Okay. Well, first of all, thank you for talking about your history with the disordered eating and everything. I think, you know, we talk about it so much in the female sphere, but I feel like men don't talk about it as much. So it's nice to shine a spotlight on that and to, you know, provide a way out of it really, which ended up benefiting so many people. So okay.

Luis Villaseñor:
Okay, so many things. In that scenario, I think I was very lucky because now that I look at it from another perspective, I didn't know it at the time, but I'm very thankful that I started eating this way because I don't know if you've seen, there's some research and studies that actually support the idea that I low carb diet without eating processed foods actually help people stop the urges that come along with eating disorders, right? Because for example, nobody has, well, as far as I know when I've studied, there are no eating disorders related to people eating latuses, for example, right? It's always a super palatable food, processed foods related to either sweet stuffs or crunchy, tasteless, things like this. Nobody, I never got the urge just to overeat in meat, for example, but every time there was a donut or a cake or things like that, they were the things that triggered. And then when I realized and I started reading on these reports and studies of certain treatments that work like this, it's like, wow, this is why I probably was very lucky.

Melanie Avalon:
Actually, to that point, it's something you touched on earlier when you were talking about people being concerned about your diet and the high protein and everything, because I'm just thinking now you're talking about people not overeating certain foods. So I personally eat a really high protein diet. I just love it. We talk about it a lot in the show because I do intermittent fasting, and we're always talking about the importance of protein, and I do manage to eat a massive amount of protein in a relatively short window, like a four -hour, five -hour window or so. Do you have any concerns about really high protein intakes?

Luis Villaseñor:
none whatsoever. Basically, I joke that most of my female clients end up eating more protein than the average man. And we are actually like we have our tribe and we are very aware of that. And it's like, like, like, how do you say this, like our motto, you know, a quote. So it's became sort of a joke for real, because just to give you a perspective, or like my average female client starts at 125. And I have women that end up at about 150 160 ish, depending on their, of course, their size and muscle, right. And now, a lot of people think that I cater mostly to, you know, bodybuilders and athletes. It's funny, but like, 70% of my client, if not more, are basically normal females, around 35 to 60 year old. So they are not really at let athletes per se, right, I do cater to them as well. But the biggest chunk of my clientele are traditional housewives. And they end up eating that much protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. That's perfect because that's a large demographic of our audience. So you're speaking straight to them. I can eat so much protein. Like last night, I just ate pounds and pounds of chicken and pork. Okay. And actually while we're talking about the concerns, since you were talking about the concerns people had, because we did have questions about that. Katherine, for example, she said, I've heard that keto diets can actually raise cholesterol levels, but that that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. I need more information. So I know that's a massive question, but what are your thoughts on the cholesterol raising potential of keto?

Luis Villaseñor:
So it really depends on exactly how do you do the diet right there there's like every diet out there there's a like that good way to do it when you're managing health and the easy way and. That the incorrect way i'd say right i was a classic beauty kiddo where you eat whatever as long as it's just below thirty grams of carbohydrates pretty right. I do believe that there are certain things that you can eat that can improve your health and others that probably without knowing can worsen or not make it not make you better and so. For the actual Ketogains protocol is very much a combination of paleo with a whole food keto I don't really advocate or am a fan of eating processed foods in any fashion, especially with the goal of. Changing your palate and basically recovering your first the food taste and then cravings and all of that unnecessary that comes along with food nowadays. So what I suggest normally is protein is a goal basically help people how to estimate your ideal amount of protein then cars are a limit that you set between different brackets most people end up. Around 30 grams of net carbohydrates a day, some can increase up to 100 depending on their metabolic flexibility how much muscle they have. Age, but these cars aren't really just free cars basically what I suggest these. If you are below 30 grams per days basically green vegetables that grow up ground with certain variations and if you're over you can add some starches potato sweet potato carrots tomatoes and so on and maybe some fruit right and then fat. Is the one that comes along with your protein you need to have or being a super high fat diet just to maintain this so called ketogenic ratios I'm really not in favor of that because, especially when you come. With a little bit of extra body fat, the point of doing desired first is to harness that body fat, so if you are adding lots of body fat sorry of a dietary fat. You're going to be burning fat all right, but mostly the fact that you're eating. There comes a point when you are losing weight or you can increase dietary fat but not at the expense of burning your own fat and I'm not a fan of also. Making people focusing on doing exercise to burn body fat rather it's easier to burn the fat by managing what you're eating rather than just spending countless amounts of time in the gym or doing cardio.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, we can put a link in the show notes to the Ketogains calculator that you have because I think people will find that really helpful. It's so interesting. So I love hearing you talk about the getting the fat from what's just already in the whole foods versus adding it. I was also interviewing Gary Topps this week who, you know, really popularized the, well, a lot with low carb and the insulin theories and everything. And I think there's this massive potential misconception in the keto and low carb world, which is people think because fat doesn't stimulate a quote insulin response. That means that fat's unlimited when really it's the way I see it is that fat doesn't stimulate insulin because it doesn't need insulin. Like it just gets stored. You know, like it, it's not like you're not storing that fat because there's no insulin. I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to make people afraid of fat. I just think that there's like this basic idea that kind of got twisted and.

Luis Villaseñor:
It's a very complex concept that got overly simplified to the point that people understand it incorrectly because actually fat does stimulate insulin but have very small amounts. Tiny amounts. And for example, if you eat carbohydrates per se alone, you're going to see a big spike, but that spike is going to go down faster. If you combine fat with carbohydrates, you can sort of mitigate a spike or you can also have it depending on what you eat, but the spike stays high longer because it's also related to the amount of energy. So it's a big chunk of energy, even though you may not have carbs, it increases the length of the insulin spike. And that's something that also people don't realize.

Melanie Avalon:
you see it all the time. It's like, add fat to your meals to mitigate the spike. And I'm always like, I don't know if that's the best thing. So if a person's eating a ton of carbs, I'm not sure I want them to just add a lot of fat to that as well. I don't know that that's the best situation.

Luis Villaseñor:
to be in. Explaining it like that, what makes people do in the end, is not eat less to a point. Rather, try to mitigate all the carbs that they ate, especially with extra fat. Ends up making the situation worse, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly oh my goodness i love talking about this because we see it all the time that recommendation.

Luis Villaseñor:
I didn't answer the thing on cholesterol, but just to finish my line of thought, what I see with 99 of my patients is they don't get the so -called super high cholesterol that some people report. More, so what happens is if you eat like I suggest following our protocol, your triglycerides start to go down as you lose weight. Most of my clients end up below 70 or 50, depending, especially when they are linear. Your HDL is in between 50, 60, and yeah, your LDL is going to be a little bit higher than on a traditional, let's say low -fat diet or vegan diet, but it's still going to be manageable. You're going to be around 110, maybe 90, 120 at most. But what is most important for me is your ratios. I do check HDL with our trigs and everything else. I mean, most people, those ratios are in the perfect or very good category. For example, in my case, I'm very much like that. And of course, what I also suggest if you are worried about this is to also get a calcium score test. If you have zero calcification, which is something that I see with a lot of my clients or very low calcification, it means that this is perfect. The risk should be very low. Of course, again, I'm not a cardiologist. This is just my conjectures. And this is what I do, especially in my case. I have zero calc score, even though I've been doing this diet for basically 24 years. But again, I'm not someone that overly abuses fat. Most of my fat comes from egg yolks, the fat that comes along with ground beef or beef, a little bit of avocado oil here or coconut oil there, olive oil. Mostly that's what I eat as fat.

Melanie Avalon:
That'll probably help because we got a few different questions about people who said they have no gallbladder and they're sensitive to fat, like Valerie was asking about that. So that'll probably help.

Luis Villaseñor:
In the case of people with no gallbladders, you can perfectly do a ketogenic diet, again, by not overdoing fat and relying mostly on coconut oil and MCT oils, because those really don't require bile for you to absorb them. And the other thing that I've done is, or to suggest to people that don't have a gallbladder, is don't eat big amounts of fatty food at once. You're rather going to have to distribute those foods, like instead of having one big meal or two big meals, maybe three smaller meals would be better. And of course, not abusing dietary fat.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So just to like wrap that all up and as a subtle nuance, Deanna, for example, she said, is a high fat diet beneficial for our overall long term health? So people who are on like a super high fat version of low carbon keto, do they need to take a little bit more caution with everything like the cholesterol and all of that?

Luis Villaseñor:
If your numbers are, well, especially, again, in the, let's say, the cholesterol ratios, and you have a zero or very low calcium score, which means the calcification of the arteries, I wouldn't worry that much because the narrative is that cholesterol is bad. I think that it's not bad, per se. It's natural. That's why we make it to a point. And then recent studies, probably you've seen them, also show that people that are the most longevity also have a natural high, or, well, not natural, but they tend to have higher levels of cholesterol more than what are traditionally known as beneficial, right? And if we look at the story of cholesterol recommendations, you will find that year after year they are lowering the number. And I don't want to be an advocate of conspiration theories, but, well, if they make the threshold lower, it's easier for doctors to recommend statins, right? And I'm not a fan of statins. I can tell you that. I see, like, a lot of the reports of all the side effects, and I think it's better to just mitigate that with diet instead of just trying to use a medication that really is not going to help you, but it's more like a band -aid.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm haunted by statins because I was always the way you were thinking. And then I listened to a lot of Peter Atea and he's very like pro statins. And so I'm like haunted by the statin question.

Luis Villaseñor:
No, I know. And again, I'm not advocating foreign, I guess. I do think there's a special case. For example, I have a patient that has very high cholesterol, do a combination of autoimmune disorders, and of course, high family hypercholestemia. And with the statin, in her actual case, it can lower her cholesterol by 100 points. That's a very specific case. But taking statins, just because your total cholesterol, let's say, or your LDL is about 150, which is what I see a lot of doctors pushing, I think that probably you should better just review your diet, do a little bit of exercise, review other stuff before just taking a pill and also understanding and informing yourself of all the other risks that this medication can also give you, and then take an informed decision.

Melanie Avalon:
Has it been an uninterrupted streak for you personally with keto and low carb or have you had any moments off of it?

Luis Villaseñor:
I'd say that my latest being out of keto is probably one or two days in between every few months.

Melanie Avalon:
You take one or two days every few months where you don't do keto.

Luis Villaseñor:
And it's not like I take them, oh, it's time to go out of keto. It's basically if it happens because I'm at a party and I want to have some cake or, you know, I have a very laid back approach where, and I'm thankful again, because I changed my stance over the years as a mature, right? If you ask the Luis 20 years ago, probably he would say a different thing. Whereas right now it's like, it really depends on the situation. It's a lifestyle. It's not a religion. It's not like the keto God's going to come and exterminate me, right? And nothing's going to happen also physically or nothing happens. Like it's not, if I lower my ketones, I'm going to gain 20 pounds of fat immediately or nothing like that happens. It's just, if the situation arises and it's worth it, let's say I'm on a vacation and it's the best cake and you know, the chef came to the table and it's covered in gold, okay, I might as well try it. But I'm never in the, in the idea of, Oh, I need a donut. There's a seven 11 there. I'm going to just stop and eat it because usually when I've done that and these are a story that I share with my clients and it's happened to many of them. It wasn't worth it. Just not eating for the sake of eating something has to be a special occasion and as, and something special by itself. But yeah, like I normally, I do have this personal rule is if I'm going to eat something out of my allowed food. So it's not really allowed again, because it's not like it's bad or good food. It's like something that I don't normally eat. It has to be really worth it. And if I'm never in the, into the idea of, okay, I already broke the diet. I'm going to eat whatever for the rest of the weekend, for example, because that never works out and you always, especially myself, I end up feeling unwell so that, you know, you get bloated, you feel awful, you look awful. Everything, you know, it's a train wreck. So it's, for me, my rule is I never order myself something unless it's really worth it. I may try it and taste it, but it's one meal and that's it. I usually, I go back to eating like I always do immediately after. That's if nothing happened.

Melanie Avalon:
I think that's a really really healthy mindset and approach. It kind of reminds me of an advice phrase I heard which was something to the effect of not that it's a mistake to you know have that meal but it's basically like you can do anything once just don't do it two times in a row. It's basically like the idea of what you just said like you're gonna have the meal you're not just going to keep on keeping on with it after.

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah, because that creates that unnecessary, well, that unhealthy behavior pattern that a lot of dieters tend to have, which I used to have, which is you broke the diet, might as well eat whatever, because you're going to start on Monday, and then you basically destroy all the hard -earned work, but then you have remorse, and then you punish yourself in the gym, not eating anything, et cetera, and that creates a vicious cycle, right, where you cannot sustain the punishment that you are putting yourself, because you, you know, didn't follow the diet, and then you end up, again, in the same place, and you became like the groundhog day of diets. You're always on a diet, and this is why diets don't work, because people think they have to punish themselves, not eat anything, don't enjoy the food that they're eating, then they break the diet on the weekends, and they start again on Monday. The moment that I realize, eh, it's just a meal, whatever, I'm not going to punish myself, I'm just going to continue as if nothing, that's when you break the cycle, and yeah, you still manage to lose weight, not as fast as you probably imagined, but it's a continuous process, and when you turn back and you realize that it's been a year, and on the span of the year, you maybe lost 10 pounds and not gained them back, that's a big win, because then the next year is 20 pounds, and then it's 40 pounds that you're not going to regain forever in your life, because you did it in a healthy way with a healthy mindset, and now it's become your new normal.

Melanie Avalon:
The hack I was doing for a while, and I think this is one of the popularized diets, I don't remember if I actually found it through the diet or if I just kind of came to it on my own with my obsessive research, but when I was low carb, because I actually don't do it, now I do really high protein, high carbs from fruit. I say low fat, but I eat the fat that's naturally with the meat and everything, and I'll eat salmon and stuff, so it's not really that low fat. But back when I was keto and everything, if I had days where I was doing carb ups or taking the day off, I would make sure that I would eat high carb, low fat on those days, because the way I envisioned it in my head was I was like, if I'm just eating all the things on this day for whatever reason, and if I'm eating the fat, that's just going straight into the fat cells. But if I'm eating high protein, high carb on those days, there's the thermogenic effect of food, and then the conversion of carbs to fat is like a complicated process, and I was like, I feel like this is minimum damage control, and I'm trying to remember which diet it is that does that approach.

Luis Villaseñor:
There are a lot of variations, but what you are explaining is the correct way to do a carb load, for example, for the cyclical ketogenic diet or a carb load either for bodybuilders or any athlete. You basically go, you maintain protein to a point, you increase carbohydrates depending on how high and whatever, but you keep fats to a minimum precisely because of what you stated, especially when you are transitioning from diets, if your glycogen stores are full and you keep eating carbohydrates, they turn via process, the noble lipogenesis into fats, and all the fat that you're eating basically just gets stored directly as fat.

Melanie Avalon:
So the question I was actually going to with that initial question wondering about your history, Amy wanted to know, is it useful to our bodies if we aren't eating keto seven days a week? So how do you fill out people who are eating keto but not consistently?

Luis Villaseñor:
So I genuinely don't recommend the carb loads or the meals cheat days for various reasons. First is because what we just said, there's the correct way to do so and then the incorrect way. The thing is that people use cheat days basically as a cheat, as a way to undiating and then I'm going to eat whatever, right? What happens here is that you're not really getting the benefits of keto on one side, but all the negative things because by getting kicked out of keto, it takes two or three days to actually enter ketosis. So you're really adjusting keto one or two days, not enough to actually get the benefits of mental being, producing of ketos, etc. And of course, all the digestive and enzymatic changes that come along. And of course, you also don't get the changes in the cells, right? There are a lot of processes that when one is going to actually do a carb load, usually it's after three or four months of correctly doing the diet because otherwise you haven't really transitioned and gotten the adaptations. That's one thing. The other is how one should do the diet, again, eating a clean high carb diet with low fat versus what people want to do, which is eat a pizza, eat ice cream. It's a combination of high fat and high carbohydrates. That's basically just that recipe for disaster. And what happens is people end up loading, they gain and regain the same five pounds on and off or even more. And what I see usually is that people end up giving up because the diet didn't work. They just lose three pounds at the beginning because it's water weight, but then they gain five back because they're gaining in the water weight plus, depending on what they ate, probably some fat.

Melanie Avalon:
you mentioned Rob Wolf earlier, who is also my hero. But he talks about that a lot on his podcast, how everything that you just said, basically, that people think it'll work to like, do the keto a few days and then not and do the cycle thing. But really, they just kind of are shooting often or shooting themselves on the foot because they never never actually getting into the, you know, the metabolic state they need to be in. And then if they do, then they just get right out of it right away. And so like you said, not the benefit.

Luis Villaseñor:
The other aspect is a psychological aspect. And this is actually studied. When you are doing these kinds of cheat meals, you spend the whole week waiting for the cheat meal. So you're not really enjoying the food and you're actually suffering more than you should be. Like again, it creates this unhealthy behavior and relationship with food because you're just waiting for the cheat day. And taste -wise and hunger -wise, you destroy the adaptation process as well. Just not even talking about a cellular process. When you're exposed or waiting for cheat meals, foods that are super highly palatable, super delicious, then the other food tastes bland and you won't want it. Everything tastes horrible because you are just waiting for the pizza. Makes sense? So on the other hand, this is exactly what, when I get a new client and I'm going to be personally following the person, I do this like a clean, I wouldn't call it detox because it's not a detox, but I call it a palate reset. I teach them how to make natural foods more savory and how they can learn or relearn the natural tastes and flavors of food so that they can basically just go to any restaurant and just order a steak and they're super happy with it. And you are actually waiting for that steak or you can cook in your house and again, learn to cook the basics but very healthy, healthy meals, not just the idea that chicken and broccoli. No, that's not it. You have to eat a lot more than probably you're used to, but also you have to make those food enjoyable so that you really don't want the pizza and the doughnut and other stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
I agree so much and that's actually another reason I really love intermittent fasting is because I feel like it kind of does that a little bit and that it really amps up. When you go through the fasted period, then when you do sit down to your meal, especially if you're eating just natural whole foods, at least to me, they taste so much better.

Luis Villaseñor:
better. You arrested your palate and I call this the coffee test or the dark chocolate test. A lot of people are not used to liking dark chocolate. They just love the traditional brown, full skim milk, sugar, lard and chocolate, right? The moment they start to clean their palate and they start to find appreciation in the dark chocolate, that's when you know that you are doing it correctly. And the same happens with coffee drinkers that they are used to, you know, that coffee latte or the Starbucks mochaccino and all of that. They start to slowly revert to just drinking plain black coffee, maybe with a little bit of stevia, but that's it. You start to appreciate the smell and the notes of certain foods much better, including steak, including chicken and fish versus probably what you had eaten before.

Melanie Avalon:
My version of that test is, it's funny, when I go to restaurants, I get everything completely plain. If I get steak or chicken or whatever, I just want it completely plain, and it tastes amazing to me. I will get so much pushback, though, sometimes from waiters, they'll be like, are you sure? Like nothing? I'm like, it's fine. It tastes amazing. The other day I got, they had Wagyu carpaccio, but they were slathering it in olive oil, and I was like, why would, then I can't taste the actual meat, then it's just like olive oil that I'm tasting. So yeah, question about muscle building, though, Emily wanted to, I love this question. This is like the question, oftentimes with muscle building and weight loss, Emily wanted to know, can you truly lose fat and build muscle at the same time? And if so, what's the most effective way to do that?

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah, that's the quintessential question. And basically, I have to answer this question almost every day on Reddit, on my board, because people come from traditional ideas that you need to be in a caloric surplus to build muscle, right? And that's actually incorrect. What you need to build muscle are four things. First, of course, strength training. You need a stimulus. And it has to be a correct amount and in a correct way. It's not just showing up to the gym. The second would be more than adequate protein with different contexts. Because when we are younger, we need less protein than when we are older. That's one thing, right? Because probably you've talked about this a lot, Laosine desensitivization, or you become Laosine -resistant. So it's not the same when you are young as when you are, let's say, over 40 or over 60. You need more protein and more high -quality protein. It's not just any protein. It has, optimally, to be animal -based protein. It would be the best, whole, full sources of protein. But of course, there comes a point where whey protein or shakes have a news. Then what you need is energy, right? Energy can come from protein, OK, from carbohydrates and from fats. But the fat can come from dietary fat or stored body fat. And then finally, you need rest and stress management. Now, going back to the question is, can you build muscle in a caloric deficit? Yes, as long as you have extra fat to lose. If you are, let's say, as a man under 15% body fat and as a female or a woman under 24% body fat, likely you're not going to be building much muscle in a deficit. But you are likely going to be building enough on maintenance. If you stay on a high -protein diet, around 30% of your calories come coming from protein. And the rest, a mix between fat and carbs. And this is not just me speaking. It's something that I've done myself. And basically, that's a protocol that I do with most of my clients. Unless you have a very low body fat percentage and are a heart gainer, would I put you in a surplus? And that's actually a very small surplus, because also people think you have to eat 500, 800 extra calories. That's only getting you to gain mass, which is not muscle. It's basically a combination of water, some muscle, but mostly fat. Just traditionally speaking, I was reading research the other day, which I love these kinds of studies. More than 50% of the weight you gain when you do a classic bulk, meaning eating on a surplus for the sake of gaining muscle, is fat. So basically, then you have to cut down. And when you cut, you're also going to lose some muscle. So the end result would be you're actually just gaining 30% up to 40% muscle. It's detrimental. A safer way to do so would be first, you get down to a sensible body fat percentage while still strength training. You always strength train. And then you either maintain. What I do, it's called gain -taining. Or you slightly increase calories, let's say 150 calories here or there, very slowly, and you review body composition. Then the idea when you're in the low end bracket is to gain as much weight as you can without actually gaining body fat. But again, it has to be very conservative.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I think listeners are going to love hearing that, that answer.

Luis Villaseñor:
And just to give you a little bit more advice on the nuances of this, when you are training like this and eating like this, you don't really just use weight as a way to measure success or if you're doing it right. More so what you focus is on measurements. You can take full body measurements. And also you measure strength gains in the gym. Just to give you an example, one of my favorite clients that has been training with us for 46 boot camps, that would be about five years, give or take. We were looking at compression pictures between her first training course with us and now. She gained almost 10 pounds. But her clothes and measurements are basically the same. She was like a, let's say skinny fat. So she gained basically 10 pounds. Let's round it. Basically it's just muscle because she sent me the picture with the same bikini. And you don't see like if she had gained weights, rolls of fat here and there, right? No, basically the same piece of swimming suit. She gained a buttock. She gained a back. She gained delts, basically 10 pounds all over her body of pure muscle. That's incredible. And she's not 15 years old. She's 40 with three children. She's a housewife. So again, it's not like she's not a bodybuilder. She's just a regular housewife with kids and course and she only trains three times per week. Also, she doesn't live in the gym. She just trains whenever she can and eat sensibly.

Melanie Avalon:
So in doing that, the timing of the protein, especially because a lot of our audience is doing intermittent fasting, this is Melanie, not me, this is another Melanie, wanted to know when was the best time to take, and she says, tone protein, which is Vanessa, my co -hosts. A brand. My co -hosts brand. She says, when is the best time to take tone protein surrounding exercise to support muscle recovery immediately after, or can it be several hours later?

Luis Villaseñor:
So, optimally, you want protein as close as possible to your training. Again, this is my, what I suggest to my clients, right? Because there are different ways to skin a cat. I try to get, or to, let's say, join or have together the anabolic process of building protein, uh, sorry, of muscle building, which is a strength, strength training exercise with the amino acids that come from the protein. Because when you train, there's what we call the anabolic window. Of course, it's understandable that this window isn't really a window. It's more like a door, like it stays elevated for longer periods of time. Right. But just for the sake of managing insulin spikes and so on, I usually recommend, especially my clients that are diabetic to have the protein before training, like 30 minutes before, and then train like normal. And then afterwards, because a lot, a lot of my clients also do intermittent fasting is okay, a few hours later, one hour, depending on your schedule, you have a big protein meal, let's say it's breakfast, and then two hours later you have your dinner or whatever, which is sort of like what I do. I'm not really a fan of faster training because from my research, there's really no benefit for extra fat burning as it's usually said, especially in the context of a ketogenic diet, because you're already burning fat, right? You're not going to increase the fat burning just because you do faster training, you're going to burn the same. Your main source of energy is basically fat already. There's no benefit. And it does. And there are some studies that do support that fasted strength training. We're talking specifically about strength training, fasted strength training without amino acids in your blood and without having the muscle full effect, which means that your muscles are full with amino acids can be detrimental to muscle growth, especially when we are talking to middle aged individuals, basically people over 30 or 40 years old.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, Vanessa and I actually on a recent episode, actually, I don't know if I don't know if it's aired yet, if it'll be before after this episode, but we actually talked at length about a study that was looking at fueling exercise, it was looking at like carb fueled a carb preload water preload or a protein preload. And it was similar amounts of fat burning in the protein in the water, which was

Luis Villaseñor:
really interesting. People tend to think that maybe protein negates fat burning, it doesn't. And I've seen this study and I recall that even protein increases a little bit of the fat burning. And another thing related is that also why I give protein to my clients is because the classic saying says that you cannot build muscle on a ketogenic diet because you don't have carbs, right? That's what a lot of people believe. Carbs by themselves are not what actually helps muscle building just because there are carbs. People think, okay, carbs are anabolic. So then related to muscle building, you're going to build more muscle with carbohydrates. In reality, what happens in carbs and insulin is that insulin is an anti -catabolic hormone. And the process of building muscle requires, or you can see it as this equation. Training per se creates both muscle protein synthesis, but also muscle protein breakdown. The end result, if muscle protein synthesis is bigger than muscle protein breakdown, it means that you're going to build muscle. Now, what aspects modify muscle protein building and muscle protein breakdown would be protein around training stimulates muscle protein synthesis, but it doesn't have any effect on muscle protein breakdown, whereas insulin doesn't have an effect on muscle protein building, but negates a little or diminishes muscle protein breakdown. So again, people will say, okay, then I do need carbohydrates to raise insulin to benefit from this diminishing effect of muscle protein breakdown. And basically, there's a study that I love to quote, which what they did is they fed bodybuilders a whey shake with maltodextrin, basically pure sugar. And then another group of bodybuilders basically just whey. And what they found is that basically, the muscle protein synthesis raised exactly the same and even better without the negative effects of the muscle protein breakdown. Basically, protein alone raised insulin sufficiently to get the benefit. You don't need the carbohydrates, you need the sugar. Just one whey shake around training is more than enough to get the best results. If you just add sugar, basically, it's just sugar that's going to be stored. So for the context of building muscle on a low carb diet, it's perfectly doable and carbohydrates are percent not necessary.

Melanie Avalon:
It's been a while now, but I saw a study a while ago that was looking at adding protein to diets and it was in people that were, I don't know if they were completely sedentary, but they weren't doing any concentrated muscle stimulus of any sort, and they actually, some of the protein in excess converted to muscle, which was really interesting, like without an exercise stimulus.

Luis Villaseñor:
Yes. It's funny because I think I know that particular study and what they found is it wasn't older people, right? I don't remember. I think so because if it's the same study that I'm referencing, as you know, all of us have this set point theory, right? Like our normal standard weight. But it's not just about related to fat, it's also related to our ideal muscle or the amount of muscle that we genetically are predisposed to have, which we can increase, of course, with the stimulus of exercise. So if it's a study that I'm thinking of, psychopenic populations, people that have naturally lost lean mass or muscle because of aging and not eating sufficient protein, the moment that you give them enough protein from good quality sources, they revert back to their ideal muscle size. Again, they're not going to get like bodybuilders, of course, but they're going to recover what would be their ideal muscle tone to a point, even without exercise.

Melanie Avalon:
Valerie wanted to know, she said she just turned 60, and that she's completed two weight loss challenges where she lost weight, but also muscle. How can one build muscle in their later years? Everyone tells me just to eat more protein. If that's truly the answer, how much is enough?

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah, the thing here is that it requires a little bit more context because here are two things that happens. First, I would love to know how she determined that she lost muscle, because that can be a little bit of conflicting information, right? If what she did was get the classic in -body or, yeah, like the in -body that they have in most gyms, that kind of device has a lot of margin of error. Or in my experience so much that every time that a client tells me their body fat percentage or their lean mass based on those metrics, I just dismiss it outright. Just to give you an example, it tends to give men a much lower body fat percentage than they have, usually by six points. So they come at me and I have 14% body fat. I look at their pictures. No, you're like 22, but they tend to think like they are much lower. And so they tend to eat them much higher, right? Because they think that they deserve more food. And the same happens with females, right? And so this test confuses lean mass with water and glycogen to a very big degree. So every time that you do any diet whatsoever, you're going to lose some glycogen and some water. And that is accounted for as lean mass. So that can give very disheartening results to some people thinking they actually lost muscle. So what I normally do is we take measurements of the person and also on key parts like their arms and their thighs. And yeah, of course, if you were overweight, those are going to also get smaller, but not at the same extent of maybe your belly and your hips. Make sense? So that's one thing that I would review. And the second is if you are maintaining your strength in certain exercise, it's very unlikely that you're actually losing lean mass. And of course, if you're eating sufficient protein, which is a question, what is sufficient protein? When we talk about high protein, low protein, that's a very subjective number because people, especially when people use percentages. So I hate percentages to very much define the amount of protein that one needs to eat. Very easy rule to follow is from I don't know if you're familiar with Mike T. Nelson, Dr. Mike Nelson. He's one of my favorite researchers and doctors on the field of strength training and metabolic flexibility. And he suggests the 420 rule, which is especially for people that are having a hard time or that are over 40 gaining muscle or maintaining muscle is three to four meals per day with at least 40 grams of protein each, which leaves you in between what I suggested, 120 grams at least or maybe 140 for most females make sense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And it's funny, you're talking about how relative it is. Like for me, for example, I eat so much protein that if I were to only eat like 100 something grams, I mean, I would be starving. I eat so much. Yeah, so moving to the electrolytes. So Nicole wanted to know if electrolytes are actually necessary if you don't sweat and only fast from 12 to 19 hours. She says only for 19 hours. Oh my goodness. But my related question to that is we were talking earlier about this, our palette resetting and, you know, things tasting differently based on what we're eating. And I actually talked with Rob about this when I had him on either the show or my other show, which is that I found when it comes to salt, and we also have questions about that, like Stephanie wanted to know are electrolytes just salt mostly. But when it comes to salt, I found personally that like if I add more salt to my diet, it's like I have that similar effect that we were talking about with the food where I crave more salt. And then I feel like I'm excreting more salt. Whereas if I like cut back on the salt, I end up craving less salt, and it seems like I excrete less salt. So I've always been perplexed by that idea of like, do I need more electrolytes or am I just like when I take in more electrolytes, I'm just my body then craves more electrolytes. And again, when I say electrolytes, I know that's a spectrum, I'm just talking about salt right here. So there was a lot of questions in that. But what are your thoughts on salt and like how much do we intuitively need and an element, for example, what else is in there besides salt?

Luis Villaseñor:
So, just to give you an electrolyte 101, electrolytes are basically salt, potassium, are the two main ones, but then also magnesium and calcium, right? Generally speaking, we really don't have to really supplement calcium because most people do get more than enough from their food sources. And also, there's a little bit of an issue with using calcium as a supplement because most of it isn't really absorbed. And we talked at the beginning about a calcium score. You eat lots of supplements with calcium. There may be a degree where it gets just deposited in your artery, so we don't want that. It has to be naturally obtained. That's it, right? Now, people tend to think that sodium and potassium are just for hydration and if you sweat. And the issue is that it's a little bit more nuanced and complicated than that because basically, there's a thing called the sodium and potassium pump, which is called in biochemistry as an action potential. Basically, what I like to see or explain it is like the spark plug of a motor car. Most actions in our body begin with the action potential of the cells or the sodium potassium pump. If we don't have adequate sodium and potassium in our fluids in our body, we are going to feel lethargic and tired because we are working very slowly. We're not getting energy in and out of our cells in any given moment efficiently and we're not going to be able to produce ADP at an efficient rate. That's basically the most important thing to understand about sodium and potassium. It has not much to do with hydration as we know it. Now, sweat per se isn't really a good indicator of sodium losses. Of course, when you pee, of course, you excrete, but also respiration and depending where you live can change a little bit equation. People that live in high altitudes, even though they may not feel they are sweating, they're also losing their perspiration, of course, yet they're having losses of sodium and potassium. Now, how much do we actually need? It really depends first, again, like I was saying, on the weather, on the altitude, activity levels, some genetic variations, but mostly it also depends on your actual diet. If you are doing a high -carb diet, likely you're not going to need as much sodium and potassium as someone that's doing a low -carb diet. If you're eating a high -process food diet, also you're likely not going to be needing as much because most processed foods use sodium as a preservative or as a flavor enhancer. Then, if you're doing a low -carb diet or a ketogenic diet, there is a range that I personally suggest, which we have on the website on Element, or also I can share a leaflet that I have in my website, which is basically for people that are doing a high -carb diet or a traditional diet, sodium needs range between 1 to 3 grams per day. If you are doing keto or low -carb or whole food, you can increase by 2 grams, so let's say 5 to up to 7, depending with some personal modifications, of course. Then, for potassium, potassium has to be in a ratio or in relation to sodium because we're talking about the sodium potassium pump. The lowest that I would suggest for potassium is about 3 .5 grams, and you can increase at the same rate as sodium. If you go, let's say, 7 grams of sodium, you would be at least at 5 grams of potassium. Now, some people, when they say if they are in a low -carb diet that they are retaining water every time that they add sodium, two things usually happen. Maybe they are not getting adequate potassium. If your potassium is way too low, what happens is that you are going to retain sodium. Also, if your sodium is way too low, you also retain water. People tend to think that only high sodium retains water. Now, if your sodium is way too low, you can also retain water because your body is trying to maintain as much sodium as possible, and you're probably going to suffer from a little bit of edema. Related, for example, to high blood pressure, some people also tend to think that sodium persists the one that causes high blood pressure. That can happen on a high -carb diet, but it's very unlikely on a low -carb diet because insulin is the one that very much regulates high blood pressure. If you are in a low insulin state, which is probably something very common that people experience, especially at the beginning of a low -carb diet, you're going to be peeing all day long. When you are on low insulin or stable insulin, it basically has a diuretic effect. Basically, you're dumping sodium every time that you're going to the bedroom. Another way to lower blood pressure if you actually have it is also by increasing potassium, not really lowering sodium per se.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, that was great because that was Eleni's question about the retaining water, so that was really helpful. And then Stephanie's second part of her question was about the high blood pressure. So that was great. And then just to clarify about the, you talked a lot about the lower limits, but on the upper limit side of things, because people, okay, people love element and I give it to so many friends and family members personally. So I can't tell you how many times I've been asked by friends, by family members and by people in my Facebook group and listeners, Nadia wants to know, for example, how many in a day can you drink?

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah. So again, it really depends on the type of diet that you're having, how active you are, the weather, and just to give you a range. I personally get on average two per day. When I'm training quite heavy and I'm sweating, I may have even three or four. I know personally some clients that are very low carb and are athletes that they get five or six per day. It's not something that I would advocate because these are very outsiders. I think that for people that are managing a low carb diet or eating, and just for reference, when I say low carb, it means less than 100 grams of carbohydrates per day. For people that are into low carb territory or paleo, probably two is more than enough because I also don't advocate that you get all your electrolytes from element. Also get it from real food, right? Add some sodium to your meals, prepare with spices. Potassium is super important. I saw the question on your Facebook group with this lady and what she reported that she was eating. That's super low for potassium. Potassium is very difficult for a lot of people that are not eating fruits and certain vegetables to increase because a lot of potassium, for example, is found in meat. But if you're cooking the meat, it's lost in its juices and then it evaporates or you're not getting more than you need. Getting to three grams or five grams of potassium is going to be a little bit hard. Then also, for example, element has a big amount of potassium because especially in the United States, big amounts of potassium are seen as a medication if you go past certain amounts. I'm not sure if it's in the whole United States or in certain states where you may need a prescription to actually buy potassium pills. I'm not sure and correct me if I'm wrong, right? But the issue is also if you overdo potassium, it's not that good. It's better to just go slowly and in relation to sodium. What I normally suggest to increase your potassium amounts is you can probably have whole food bone broth, whether you make it yourself or you buy a pre -made. And also, you're very familiar with it, salt for diabetics or low sodium salt, which is basically lower than sodium but it's high in potassium chloride. So what I normally suggest is mix a little bit of sea salt with potassium chloride or this low salt and it's a very easy way to manage or increase your potassium levels in a more natural way without actually having to use pills. Because also, if you're using pills, potassium acts as a diuretic, right? And if you are very high in potassium, long water, etc., that can create heart palpitations or cramps and things like that, which again, we don't want to go into that territory, just let's manage sensible amounts. And you're going to notice very easily when you are out of work with sodium or potassium, right? If you feel your hands tingling or you have muscle cramps or you feel maybe your eye twitching, all of those are signs of electrolyte imbalances. Or if you feel lethargic, you suffer brain fog, a lot of the usual symptoms that are part of the keto flu, which people think are because of not eating carbohydrates, which is one of the reasons why I had the idea for element, is because when I was studying about the side effects of keto way back in 2000, I was reviewing the so -called keto flu. And basically, those are what we call chronic dehydration symptoms in nutrition, especially for athletes. Eye twitching, muscle cramps, brain fog, tiredness, lethargy, are very much the same. So basically, they are very much managed with a little bit of salt and potassium.

Melanie Avalon:
To the potassium pill question, that's something I've been perplexed by for a long time. I mean, I don't think it's changed, but last time I checked, which was years and years ago when I was first exploring this world, I was buying potassium pills and I was always really shocked that you could do that because it can like so quickly be a problem, you know?

Luis Villaseñor:
Exactly. You tell, especially because a lot of people use them as diuretics, right? And so you take two grams of potassium plus maybe you had three or four, you can very much disrupt that sodium -potassium balance or increase a lot of diuresis, and you end up with hyponatremia, which is the opposite of being super hydrated, right? And I've seen athletes that basically just want to do that to lose water. And that's when you see people that get a heart attack. And it's not to, you know, get your listeners afraid of potassium. No, if you're eating mostly your potassium from foods, like an avocado is an excellent source of potassium, red meat plus their juices are amazing. And as well as probably get this sodium chloride, sorry, potassium chloride salt, that's super easy. And I myself never had an issue and I never take any potassium supplement, right? So it's not something to worry about, just eat whole foods. And you're likely going to be great.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Again, we love element on this show and you're talking about the development of everything. And one thing I love about element, you have a lot of flavors, you have a raw and flavored version though with, you know, no, no flavors, no nothing. So that's what we always promote for people who don't want to quote, break their fast thoughts on people taking these while fasting and the flavors. Also, I'm super curious what your favorite flavor is and how involved are you in creating the flavors and is there a flavor you really want to make?

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah. So, generally speaking, I can tell you that I'd say that for 99% of the population, I don't see a way that this can break a fast. We actually do have a few posts on our blog regarding where it has element breaks a fast. And from what I started, because there's not a consensus in this to this question is how many calories break a fast or if you get an insulin response. I've used a continuous blood glucose monitor. I've had it with my clients taking element with plain water and it doesn't move nil. So this is why we can say with very assuredness that it shouldn't affect fasting whatsoever. And okay, if it's a choice and you want to, like you said, just not partake with any flavors or any other ingredients, there's always a raw version, which basically is just the electrolytes very much raw by themselves. And that's also like a more assurance for people that just wanted to use it as a fasting aid because dry fasting is something that outside of religious recommendations, I myself wouldn't recommend because you do need, as I said, the potassium sodium pump for many of the processes that you actually want to improve with your fasting, right? You want to improve mitochondrial biogenesis, you want to improve autophagy, et cetera. And because all of these processes are related to the health of the cell, more to the point of having adequate electrolytes in your system to support that precise procedure.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. And the flavor development, how involved are you?

Luis Villaseñor:
So back when we started, we were basically in the team about 10%. So it was a proton team, which is the ones in operations. And then it was Rob and I as basically the main idea, right? So basically, all founders, which are, we are three parties, which Rob and Nicky, his wife, James, which is our CEO, and myself, we basically bought the flavors, it's like, hey, I would like this or that. Let's see if it tastes as well. We had a joke at the beginning that because we didn't know if element was going to be successful, and that all flavors had to be able to mix well with alcohol, you know, with margaritas, or with vodka. Because if we didn't, as an electrical drink, okay, we're going to make a mixer or for rins or something, you know, but then, like, I am involved in the decision making with all the founders, it's always like an equal boat. I can say that I've suggested some flavors like the mango chili and the chocolate, the main chocolate that we had, because I love chocolate. And one, it's funny, and I'm weird like that us my favorite flavor ever since a few years ago, when I learned or was starting more about sodium and salt, and especially their benefits, both for hydration and sports with, and more without without an emphasis on ketogenic or low carb diets. I stumbled upon on this article, where has it stated or the recommending adding sea salt to coffee, because it takes away the bitterness. So it's something that ancient Greeks and Turks used to do. And still, if you go probably to Greece, and in some parts of Spain, if you ask for coffee, you can ask for salt. And they also give you a little bit of a lime or orange, and you mix lime or the orange with sea salt on your coffee. I know it sounds weird, right? But it actually takes the bitterness away, you don't have to add, you know, sugar or anything else. And so I've always like more than 10 years, add a little bit of salt to my coffee. And then I suggest, you know, let's find a way to do make this, because I have in keto games, you know how I said you need the protein before training. What I have from probably what 15 years, 12 years suggested is the Ketogains coffee, which is coffee with a way shake, plus sodium and creatine. And that's where the idea for the chocolate flavor in a way came from. So it's coffee, the cocoa, plus the salt. And you can, the idea was to mix it with whey protein, but it's just took life on its own and just mix it with coffee. And that's basically how you will find most of the recipes for chocolate and its variations.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, were you heavily involved in the chocolate medley then?

Luis Villaseñor:
In the actual, in the new one, not very much. But I do decide our boat very much in which flavors. Because for example, in this one, it was mint, chai, and raspberry. So what we do is we had also other flavors. And then based on what we bought, and then we involved all the team elements as well, we decide which flavor probably fits better for the launch. And then we look at the sales, and if it's worthy, we keep it. Or if not, we change it for another. For example, last year on the chocolate medley, we had chocolate, mint chocolate, and caramel. Caramel was so successful that now it's a standalone product.

Melanie Avalon:
Did that happen with watermelon too?

Luis Villaseñor:
No, it was great for it.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, we got grapefruit comes and goes.

Luis Villaseñor:
Yeah, we only had that for summer and also was so successful that now it's a mainstay.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I think I was associating those two because watermelon came out I think in a summer. So I think I was thinking it was like a limited time thing because watermelon is my favorite.

Luis Villaseñor:
So, it's one of my favorites as well. One flavor that we sunsetted is habanero lime.

Melanie Avalon:
One that you what? That you did what for?

Luis Villaseñor:
we just took out, we sunset it, because it wasn't really as popular. It was popular when we had it on a mix, when we had the, we call it for a while, like the Spanish or Latin mix, it was our first seasonal mix, which was chocolate, mango chili, and vanilla lime. And it was like a festive or a fiesta pack, that's what we called it. And eventually, because it was very successful, we launched those three flavors on its own. But just for the whole US market, the habanero lime, because of the name itself, it made a lot of people afraid that it's gonna be super spicy. But now that we took it out, a lot of people are complaining that they loved it. So it's like, okay, maybe we'll relaunch it eventually as a special case or something.

Melanie Avalon:
Alumina time

Luis Villaseñor:
Exactly.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so fun because I have my own supplement line as well, and I just I love the whole product development process. And it's just it's exciting, especially when you're making something that's, you know, helping people so much as well. Yeah, well, thank you so much, Louise. This has been amazing. And I'm just thinking because this is like obviously the intermittent fasting podcast. I'd love to have you on my other show as well, the biohacking podcast.

Luis Villaseñor:
I love doing my super fan of biohacking as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, awesome. Okay, so we'll have to schedule you for that.

Luis Villaseñor:
I do wanted to answer a question on electrolytes. There was this lady because I promised to her that I will answer on the show.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh yay, which one was it?

Luis Villaseñor:
So it was regarding sleep and low -carb diets.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. I can read it if you want because I have it. Teresa said, there's two, but Teresa, I'll read both of them. Teresa said, anytime I go low carb, my sleep suffers and I do all the sleep hacks. Blue blockers, sleep remedy, magnesium nightcap, blackout curtains, sleep masks, progesterone. I'm sure there are more. I seem to either fall asleep okay, but then I wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep or I'm wide awake for one to two hours trying to fall back asleep. This is only when I'm eating low carb, any help. And then Nadia said, same here. If I go low carb, my energy suffers and I can't sleep much. What kind of supplement should I take?

Luis Villaseñor:
So, more than supplements, this is a common thing that happens to a subset of people. So there are two answers here. One would be to not go so low -carb that your sleep is impaired. That's one, like, the easy solution. But for people that actually enjoy low -carb or eating like this and do want to find a way to maintain this, this is transitory. And the most common response that I've seen, and this is after much doubling, I think you actually have an answer for this in our website, just to give you a little bit of reference. In Element, we have a whole area dedicated to answering a lot of these questions because we love the research and we love to be science -based and help people with all of the answers. So what I found related to this, and it's not just, again, theory, I've experimented it with lots of clients, and for some it works. Actually, I think Rob suffered from this, and this is the first iteration of this sort of experiment, is that when you are transitioning or sending you to keto for your body, especially if you are not managing your electrolytes very well, you're putting a flight or flight response. So you have increased adrenal response. And because you also have lots of energy from this fat burning and the increased number of ketones, you are in a state of heaper alertness, which keeps you awake. So the things that you can actually do is review your amount of sodium and make sure that you're getting about the recommended amounts, basically between five to seven grams per day, which, believe me or not, nine out of 10 questions that we get related to not feeling well on low carb are related to electrolytes. It's like I'm not selling you element. Go and use whatever you want. But it's because we are either so afraid of adding sodium or using sodium because there's a campaign or has been for the last 20 years against sodium that we take sodium for granted. That's a bad thing. So we don't actually use sodium as we should. So that's one thing. And the other is that people are very bad at managing and reviewing how much sodium they are taking. Every time that I ask someone, how much sodium you take? A lot. No, a lot is not a number. Let's review food intake, beverage intake, what else are you doing, et cetera. And usually what I found is people are rarely getting one or two grams of sodium per day, which, OK, maybe on a high carb diet, you're going to function. But when you transition to low carb, that's not adequate. And so what happens, again, in people that cannot sleep, it's like, again, they're in this state of fight or flight response because they increased adrenaline because probably you're aware of the aldosterone system, right? So it's part of your hormonal system that's pretty much peaked along with your HPA axis. And basically, that's why you cannot sleep. Plus, you're probably getting lots of energy from the fat. So, again, you're in a state of hyperawares. The other thing that I've seen that works if adding sodium doesn't work is have your last meal be the one that has the highest amount of carbs so that you get a little bit more sleepy. At tryptophan, tryptophan usually also acts as a way, some analyzer. You know, the classic when it's Thanksgiving and you eat turkey and you get sleepy, it's because of that tryptophan found in Turkey, which is an amino acid. And finally, also adding another amino acid, which is called glycine. So five grams of tryptophan, five grams of glycine, a little bit of carbs. And of course, reviewing that you have more than enough sodium throughout the day should be for a great sleep cocktail or take away that hyper -vigilance, hyper -energy issue.

Melanie Avalon:
That is awesome. And just anecdotally, I've definitely experienced that before where probably when I was doing low carb or keto and would have some sleep issues. And I remember a few different situations where I actually was with element, I had some element and I felt it was like that fight or flight response turned off. Like I just felt like, huh, so safe and was able to fall asleep. So I definitely, definitely have experienced that. I need to start because we get questions about sleep a lot. And talking about electrolytes has not been, I don't normally talk about it. So thank you.

Luis Villaseñor:
It's one of the most common issues that you see with people nowadays. Well, there are a lot of common issues, but related to health, what I try to help my patients with is managing diet. That's one pillar. The other would be exercise. And the third one is usually stress management. If you don't sleep well, if you're overly stressed, all the effort that you put in the gym is not really going to work 100 percent. You're going to grow less muscle and you're going to lose less body fat. If you're overstressed and not sleeping well, and if you're not sleeping well, you're going to be hungry all the time. So it's also going to be very difficult for you to sustain and maintain your diet. So mostly in many cases, it's just, you know, let's get you seven, eight hours of really restful sleep. Let's find a way to cope with stress or, you know, meditate, whatever. That's not related to eating because a lot of people just medicate themselves with food. And then, you know, you will have energy to train and you will do much better with the diet because you're not anxious all the time and just eating because of the anxiousness and all of that.

Melanie Avalon:
I could not agree more. I was really happy in the very beginning when you were talking about the three things and you ended with the sleep and stress. I was like, yes, so, so important. So I bet listeners, again, cannot recommend element enough and supporting your electrolyte needs, especially if you're fasting, especially if you're doing low -carbon keto, and you can actually get a free sample pack of all their flavors, yes, completely free. So you can go to drinklmnt .com slash ifpodcast and that's where you can grab that sample pack. It comes with any order. So again, cannot recommend that enough. And then the show notes will have links to everything that we talked about. Those will be at ifpodcast .com slash episode 362. So Louise, thank you so much. I've been, this is just, like I said, such a moment for me because I've been following your work for so long, like a decade now. And I'm just so grateful for everything that you're doing. It's just really truly life -changing. And I look forward to, hopefully we can meet in person someday. Do you ever go to the biohacking conferences, like Dave's conference?

Luis Villaseñor:
I actually want to go to the last one, it was just what, 15 days ago or something?

Melanie Avalon:
There's probably another one. There's there's one coming up and there's Dave's conference in May at the end of May, like the big one.

Luis Villaseñor:
Okay, so yeah, I'd love to go. It really depends on my schedule. But this year, I don't have big trips outside of some family things and work. So I'll try to make it happen. Actually, just when you said about the other biohacking podcast, I don't know if you're familiar with the Entrepreneurs' Organization. With the what organization? Entrepreneurs' Organization. I don't think so. Just to give you like the average format, it's a worldwide organization for entrepreneurs, which I've been a part for the last eight years. We actually have just a channel and a chat for biohacking, which I ended up for whatever reason as a moderator, right? And they would love to maybe have you as well, you know, for a conference or something. So I'll get in touch to see what we can do.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, awesome. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. Yeah, so we'll have to meet sometime. You're just so awesome. And I also super appreciate maybe this was evident earlier. But like I said, Louise is in my Facebook group and you like jump in and answer people's questions. And I just I'm like, it's so nice. Like it's so kind. Even like random questions like back when I was prepping for Anthony Yoon for Botox, you had a lot of insight about Botox, for example, I was like, wow, that's amazing.

Luis Villaseñor:
love to answer and help you whenever I can. And it's, of course, sensible advice. Like it's like, it's basically what made me be the person that I am today just asking and getting good answers, right? Because sometimes there's a lot of misinformation, I try to be as plain as possible and as informative, I know, which is a little bit difficult in this day and age. But whenever I see a genuine question that I probably can answer, in some degree, I'd like to jump in.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, well, I super appreciate that. So, well, so my Facebook group is if biohackers, you can join that. But so how can people best follow, like join the keto games community, follow your work. I talked about element. Where can people go?

Luis Villaseñor:
So the starting point would be just type Ketogains on any browser, that's basically my company. And in most social media groups, you will find keto gain, you know, in Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or you can also look me up via my direct name. And whatever are those channels you send a PM to me, I usually I manage my own social channel. So I'm always, like you said, responding myself. And also, of course, you can go to drink element. And that's also one of my companies.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, we'll put links to all that in the show notes. Again, thank you so much. Can't wait to talk more in the future. This was amazing. Thank you.

Luis Villaseñor:
For sure. Anytime. Thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon:
Have a good rest of your day. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 361 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Blissy: Get cooling, comfortable, sustainable silk pillowcases to revolutionize your -sleep, skin, and hair! Once you get silk pillowcases, you will never look back! Get blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.Com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

REEL PAPER: Reel paper makes soft, sustainable, eco-friendly, soft, perfume-free, dye-free, plastic-free toilet paper made of 100% bamboo, and they plant one tree for each role you buy! Reel paper is available in easy, hassle-free subscriptions or one-time purchases,  conveniently delivered to your door with free shipping in 100% recyclable, plastic-free packaging. Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

BLISSY: Get blissy in tons of colors, and risk-free for 60 nights, at blissy.com/ifpodcast, with the code ifpodcast for 30% off!

REEL PAPER: Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

Find Reputable Health in the App Store or the Google Play Store and use code IF24 to get access to the open source study!

How Reputable Health works?

Which wearables are connected?

Open source studies

Data unions

Health data biases with AI

Overlapping data in multiple wearables

Epiphanies in using Reputable Health

Joining the open source fasting study

What you can do in the app

Creating your own studies

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 361 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 360 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

Butcherbox: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get 3 lbs of chicken thighs, 2 lbs of ground beef, or 1 lb of premium steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and ge4t 3 lbs of chicken thighs, 2 lbs of ground beef, or 1 lb of premium steak tips—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

Write a review on Apple Podcasts to enter to win a giveaway!

Pre-Exercise Carbohydrate or Protein Ingestion Influences Substrate Oxidation but Not Performance or Hunger Compared with Cycling in the Fasted State

Listener Q&A: Julian - How to deal with fasting as a person who works out early in the mornings.

Listener Q&A: Valory - How do you find the right fasting window (time of day plus duration) for you?

Go to melanieavalon.com/ifquiz to find the right fasting window for you!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 360 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.


Melanie Avalon:
This is Episode 360 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am so excited because I am back here again with Vanessa Spina. It has been so long for us that I literally just forgot the intro, and she had to remind me how to start the show. So, Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Bye everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm so excited to be back here with you.

Melanie Avalon:
I am so excited. And Vanessa is a champ. She is doing this post pregnancy with her beautiful little boy who might even be like with her while during part of the recordings upcoming. We shall see. We're not sure how it's going to go, but we're just going to go with it. But Vanessa, oh my goodness. I mean, there's so much I want to hear about. How was your pregnancy? Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, the delivery was great. You know, he was our little Christmas miracle. And we were so excited to be having him at Christmas, even though, you know, I'm a little bit worried he's not going to love his birth date. But it was just incredible. It was such a magical time. The hospital, the birthing place that we were at, it's like a big birthing hospital, just had Christmas trees everywhere. And it was really magical. And my parents were, you know, visiting and staying with Luca. And we were at the hospital for actually quite a long time, almost two weeks. And Luca would come and visit us at the at the baby place. It was so much fun to like, I don't know, the whole thing will always have such an amazing place in my heart because it was such a magical time. Whenever you have a baby, it's such a magical experience. So all of it was incredible. And he's just doing amazing. He's two months old now. He's just the smileiest baby ever. He's so smiley. He makes the cutest little sounds. And every day he's just getting more awake and alert and just with us. And it's so much fun. Like we're just in like baby bliss heaven. It's been amazing. But thank you so much for asking.

Melanie Avalon:
My goodness and sweet to clarify he was born on Christmas

Vanessa Spina:
His due date was Christmas Day, and he ended up being born about six days before that, so right after, but we were in the hospital for a little bit of extended time, so we spent Christmas Day in the hospital, and my mom made a full Christmas dinner, and her and my dad brought it to the hospital, and we had it in our hospital room. We had a really nice room there, so it was spacious, but we were on a small table, like having our Christmas dinner there, but it was like so magical and special, you know. Christmas makes everything, you know, magical, so yeah, it was a whole Christmas baby thing, and yeah, it was really amazing.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, I'm so happy for you. What was your very first? Because I remember you made a comment about having a drink post delivery. What was your first meal? Or what did you have first after delivering?

Vanessa Spina:
I did have to have sushi. I did order sushi. I was like, it's becoming like a tradition now because I had to do that right after Luca. And then I thought I was going to have like a margarita or something in the hospital. I always kind of say that to myself just to help, you know, the past like the last couple months, you're just like, I just don't want to really be pregnant anymore. So it helps to think about like what you're going to do, you're going to get to do. For me, it's like sleeping on my stomach, because I really miss that when I'm pregnant. I was really excited for and then we had champagne on New Year's, which was like right after we got, it was like two days after we got home from the hospital. So we had New Year's Eve, we had champagne, and it was really nice. It was really, really good. But how, how are you doing? How, you know, how are your holidays? Like, how has everything been like, been so excited to catch up with you on everything.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Wait, and you're a stomach sleeper? Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. I actually have an episode, I haven't done the interview yet, but it's about, it's with somebody who makes out the neck nest, which is like this pillow that forces you to sleep on your back, which apparently is how you're supposed to sleep. I'm a side sleeper.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, back is the ultimate. I do, I'm able to do it for naps. I did today, I was napping with Luca and Damien, but at night I find it hard to do. So yeah, I've looked into actually things. I used to have this pillow I got that was like, it has a space for your head and then it had, the pillow part was on around your head. So it kind of holds your head so that you could sleep on your back. Cause it's hard to do.

Melanie Avalon:
That's what he makes. That's his pillow. And I've had it here because they sent it. I feel so bad. They sent the pillow. And they were like, we really want you to use it before you interview him so you can have your experience. And I was like, okay, I'll do this. And then it came. I just don't like doing it. And also it had down feathers in it, which kind of bothered me. So I was like, I'm sorry, I can't use it down feathers. Oh, well, then they were like, Oh, we'll send you another one special made without down feathers. I was like, Oh, no. I have no excuse.

Vanessa Spina:
Excuse. You must have like so many products, I mean, to test and to sample and I'm sure you have so many things that people want you to try out and stuff.

Melanie Avalon:
Which speaking of I have I promise I've opened it and taken pictures with it your tone device and I'm gonna use it I swear I have like the pictures ready and waiting I promise I'm gonna do it soon I can't wait to try it

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't thought about it, there's no pressure, no rush. Seriously, I just felt like you had to have a black and rose one. I mean a rose gold one, black and rose gold one.

Melanie Avalon:
And what I'm curious about, and so for listeners, the tone device measures the ketone levels in your breath, I'm really curious if I ever blow ketones like ever.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I know. I'm curious too, because I remember you said you never really had much.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, actually today would be a good day to try it because last night on occasion, because normally I eat a ton of fruit at night, like a ton. Last night I didn't have any. So today would actually be a good day to see. Yes. It's good to go. Like I just like turn it on and like we're rolling.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah it's good to calibrate it so that you just turn it on and let it read zero three times and then do a test. So you can do the calibration anytime like anytime you haven't used it in a while anytime it's been sitting just unused it's good to do the calibration so you just turn it on let it count down let it read nothing let it read zero three times and then you do the test and it just warms the sensor up a little bit more because it's a 20 second warm -up so then you'll have a whole minute and 20 seconds of warm -up then and then do it when you first first get it sometimes it takes a little bit like say a few days to warm up to you and your breath and everything but it should be detecting ketones like right from that that first test after the calibration

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I'm motivated. I'm going to do it. I'm also wearing a CGM right now. That was one reason I wanted to play around with carbs. I was curious to see how it would affect my blood sugar levels ongoing. I actually put it on because announcement, I launched a TikTok channel, which is a whole nother world. Are you on TikTok?

Vanessa Spina:
I tried it when it first came out and it was like maybe four years ago and I made a bunch of videos and I just couldn't get into it and I couldn't figure it out. I was just like, I don't know, I'm just gonna go back to Instagram and they launched Reels. So I was like, I'm gonna stick to the Reels and I'm here because this is where I have the following. But yeah, I mean, good for you if you're doing it and if you get into it and you can reach so many new people.

Melanie Avalon:
We'll see how it goes. It's an intimidating world. I feel like it's like moving to a new school and you're like the new kid. It's a good way to put it. So, but I put on the CGM because I'm going to do monthly shoots with my photographer. So I put it on the CGM during the shoot, but yeah, I'm kind of just like letting her post and then I like go back to Instagram and like hang out. And then I go in and occasionally, and like I posted some Taylor Swift videos and those get like thousands of views. I'm like, Oh, this is the way to go Taylor Swift videos all day.

Vanessa Spina:
That's perfect for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Maybe I should just post Taylor Swift videos over there. So yes, so friends, please follow me so I don't feel alone over there and give up and like leave. It's Melanie Avalon Biohacker is my handle. This airs early March. Exciting things are coming. My spirulina supplement should be launching soon. So I'm very excited about that. That will be at AvalonX .us. EMF Walking Product Line is still coming, I promise. And then very exciting, massive sparkly project of overwhelming awesomeness, hopefully this year. I don't know. It's like, it's the biggest thing I've ever done, I think. So that's coming. Teaser. That's a big tease. That's a big tease. Okay, yeah. Well, I did want to announce, okay, some announcements for listeners. We have been getting requests to have more, this is the Interpreter Fasting Podcast. So requests to have more fasting content. So we are going to start a little format where I'm going to talk very briefly about a fun little study at the beginning of every episode, just to like bounce our thoughts off. And you can let us know if you like that or not, we could adjust accordingly. And then also we would love to do a giveaway for you guys because who doesn't love winning free things? So this giveaway, if you go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show and write a review. If you haven't done this before, you can write a new review. If you've written a review before, thank you so much. Just go and update your review. And in that review, share something that you like about this show or something sparkly or your thoughts, just in general. We would love to hear from you. And those reviews, they really, they really, really help more than most people realize. So the giveaway, we are giving away the entire line of both of our products. So you will get all the avallonic supplements and you'll get Vanessa's tone protein, all of that. And you'll get something from MD Logic. I'm not sure what they're gonna give you. They're gonna pick something. So to enter to win after you write that review, send a screenshot of that review to questions at iapodcast .com and we will enter you to win. So again, just go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe, write a brief new review or longer if you like, longer is fine. Or update your prior review and send a screenshot to questions at iapodcast .com and we will enter you to win. So this is huge. This is like all the things. You'll get serapeptase to break down problematic proteins in your body and clear your sinuses and remove inflammation and take that in the fasted state, very important. It's a great catalyst for your fast. You'll get magnesium breakthrough, which is a full spectrum magnesium blend for all your magnesium needs. You'll get magnesium nightcap, which is a magnesium that crosses the blood -brain barrier, helps with sleep, relaxation, mood and memory. You'll get berberine, which is great for blood sugar control. Wearing a CGM and using avallonix berberine, I really see a huge difference in my blood sugar levels and I hear that from so many people as well. So that's a great way to supplement your diet and your fast. You'll get Vanessa's tone protein. Vanessa, would you like to tell the benefits of your tone protein?

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. So tone protein was scientifically optimized to help you initiate muscle protein synthesis and help you build muscle and it's enhanced with leucine. So you will be guaranteed to initiate muscle protein synthesis with every serving that you take. And it also tastes absolutely delicious. It has a vanilla bean flavor and you can put it in pretty much anything. I love putting it in plain yogurt, in shakes, adding fruit, adding cocoa powder, make it into a chocolate shake. There's so many things you can do with it. I even make waffles with it and developed a recipe for that. So it's really, really amazing and a delicious way to help you build muscle and get toned.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's awesome because as you guys know, we are all about the protein and if you want one protein powder, you want Vanessa's protein because you can really trust her about her formulation with the protein. So that's amazing. And then like I said, MD Logic is going to throw in something. I'm not sure what they're going to throw in. I don't know. I love a lot of their supplements. They have a great vitamin D, they have a great new probiotic, they have a melatonin, so they're going to throw in a surprise Fonzie as well. So that is, I should probably have counted up how much that is worth, but that's worth a lot. I mean, hundreds of dollars, maybe, maybe, a couple hundred. So to win that, again, go to Apple Podcasts, subscribe to the show, write a new Apple review or update your existing review, share your thoughts on a show, something you like, something that resonates, all the things, and it will run through the beginning of April. So you have a little bit of time to do that, so go do that now. And we will announce the winner probably a little bit later in April. So thank you so much, guys, for that. Can't wait to see all of your thoughts and all the things and also to give away those supplements. And then in the meantime, if you would like to buy any of the supplements for yourself, you can go to AvalonX .us, use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount. Vanessa, how can people get your toned protein?

Vanessa Spina:
available at MDLogic's website, so MDLogic .com, and we can link that in the show notes for everyone.

Melanie Avalon:
Perfect. And then you can also get all of MDLogic supplements also at MDLogic .com. Okay. And then one more last announcement before we jump into the fasting study. I just wanted to briefly plug a new sponsor we have on the show. They're not actually sponsoring today's episode, but I'm just so obsessed with them that I wanted to personally talk about them on the show in addition to the ads that we run in the show otherwise. So, real paper, I'm obsessed with them so much. They make toilet paper made out of 100% bamboo, which honestly, I had not optimized my toilet paper usage and consumption for sustainability at all. I mean, if you think about it, normal toilet paper, you're cutting down trees, like you're cutting down trees and then you're using that toilet paper and then it's just like done. Like it's like one and done. Not sustainable, not good for the planet. Bamboo is a grass, which I hadn't really thought about until I had the call with the founder and I was like, oh yeah, you're right. This is kind of mind blowing. So bamboo, it just grows back. Like you cut it down, you mix the toilet paper and it grows right back. It is so cool. And what they've really done is they've really optimized their toilet paper to be super soft and amazing and you don't feel like you're missing out on anything from normal toilet paper and then they are so sustainable that there's zero plastic, oh, there's zero dyes and zero perfumes. That's an experience I've had with toilet paper where I accidentally have bought toilet paper that was scented and I was like, whoa, this is a problem. I do not want all these chemicals down there. So it's completely dye free, completely unscented and plastic free. Their packaging is so plastic free that there's not even plastic in the tape that they use, which that really inspired me. I was like, oh, I got to look into that for shipping my own stuff because that is next level. And then lastly, it comes straight to your door so you don't have to go out and get toilet paper anymore. Like so, so amazing. So we have an amazing discount for you guys. Oh wait, and then one last thing for every order that you buy, they plant a tree. So not only are you not cutting down trees, by buying this toilet paper, you are planting trees. I love it. They sent me free toilet paper, obviously to try so that I could speak to it. And now I'm like a customer, like I'm signing up myself, like I'm buying this. I love it so much. So you can go to realpaper .com slash if podcast and they have an incredible discount. You can use the coupon code IF podcast to get 30% off your first order plus free shipping. And that includes subscriptions. Their subscriptions are discounted. So that means if you get a subscription, which is discounted, you can get another 30% discount on that subscription. So definitely just go ahead and get a subscription. And if you don't like it, cancel, although you probably won't want to because you're going to love it. But either way, that's the way to get the best discount on your first order. So that is realpaper .com R E E L P A P E R .com slash I have podcasts, coupon code I have podcasts to get 30% off your first order plus free shipping. It's with times like these, Vanessa, that I wish you lived in the US so that you could be getting our bamboo toilet paper that I'm obsessed with.

Vanessa Spina:
with. I'm gonna try and see if there's something like that comparable in Europe but definitely when we're back in the U .S. I'm gonna try it.

Melanie Avalon:
Are you going to like, stay in Prague for forever?

Vanessa Spina:
No, not for, I don't think forever, but for the, like for now, this is where we are. But we're definitely going to be back, I think at Christmas towards the holidays. So I'll definitely try it. And whenever I'm back, I have like all the samples waiting at our place. Like I have so many things to try and stuff. So yeah, I'll definitely put that on my list.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. I just realized we'll have to talk next episode. We haven't talked on the show since I like went to Europe, right? Oh my goodness. No. Oh my goodness. I have travel takeaway tips. Okay. You told me a little bit about it, but yeah. Okay. Teaser next episode. It has been so long. Okay. So fasting. So I decided to just randomly look up new fasting studies. This will also be really fun for me because it'll force me to really, you know, see what people are writing about with fasting these days. So this study, and I thought it was a great study for this episode because we have a question about it, although we might not get to it, in which case I'll just talk about it next time. But this was a case where I was reading another study, which was actually very new, but then I was like looking at the reference studies and then I found in the reference studies, this fun little study. So it was kind of like a rabbit hole. So this one is actually from 2021 published in new trance and it's called pre -exercise carbohydrate or protein ingestion influences substrate oxidation, but not performance or hunger compared with cycling in the fasted state. And so what they were looking at, they looked at 17 trained male cyclists doing high intensity interval training. So hit training, and they wanted to see how either doing it fasted after an overnight fast or doing it with a carbohydrate rich breakfast or a protein rich breakfast. How did it affect their fat burning as well as everything else going on. So it was really interesting. So the brief takeaways, well, they talked about in general, how like reducing your carb consumption before exercise has been shown pretty consistently in the literature to increase fat burning and also to increase the activation of beneficial cell signaling pathways and also to help with muscle adaptation. So we love that. But then they've talked about how historically as well that it's often recommended that people do eat carbs before exercise. If the exercise is going to be longer or more intense and that on the flip side, that athletes often get a little bit nervous about doing fasted training because they think that it will negatively affect their workout or that they'll get super hungry, even though they do tend to like the increased fat burning and they do tend to find that it improves gut comfort during exercise, which I know personally for me, one of the main reasons I would want to do fasted exercise is I just, the idea of working out with food in my stomach is just so like unpleasant sounding to me. Like Vanessa, do you like or mind working out with food in your stomach compared to an empty stomach?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm someone who likes to work out fasted, for sure, like I, and if I have eaten earlier in the day, it's okay. But there has to be quite a bit of time elapsed between that, but 99% of the time I'm working out fasted and it works the best for me, but I know a lot of people need to eat before. I actually have a question related to this, which will be fun to have this study to refer

Melanie Avalon:
to. Exactly. That's actually the study. I was hinting at before if we get to it, maybe we'll just like bump it up. So what they found was, oh, this is another, this is another something interesting they pointed out because the way this study was set up was that it was done in an overnight fasted state. So it wasn't presumably like a 24 hour fast or anything. It was just they had fasted overnight and then they exercised. And then they, the study pointed out that that sort of fasting would deplete liver glycogen, but not muscle glycogen. So they weren't concerned with performance decreases in the workout from muscle glycogen alone because people would still have that. It's really just the liver glycogen that would have been depleted. So in any case, what did they find? So they found between all of the different arms of the study that there was no difference for average power, oxidative stress, perceived exertion, or hunger. So I mean, that kind of says exactly what it says, but basically the actual ability for them to do the workout, the way it felt, like how hard it felt and whether or not they got hungrier or not wasn't any different based on if they had carbs before, protein before, or were fasted. And again, this was high intensity interval training for cyclists. So that's basically where you go really, really intense for a really short amount of time. Then you rest and then you go intense and then you go slower and then you go intense and then you go slower. That's the sort of workout it was, but it's a type of workout that is a very intense albeit shorter workout. Okay. So what differences did they find? They actually found that the fasted exercise did increase fat burning compared to having carbs. So the athletes burn more if they had fat. However, having a pre -exercise protein meal allowed similarly high levels of fat oxidation. So what I thought was really cool about this is basically, at least in this study, they found that the athletes could go fasted or they could eat protein and they would burn similar amounts of fat, which I think has a lot of implications. Maybe when people are playing around with their exercise performance and whether or not too fast and whether or not, you know, do they feel like they need some food beforehand? There's possibly the possibility that having protein might be a way to still allow you to have that fat burning while having some food in your stomach. And they did find as far as like the gut comfort that we were talking about, they did find that the protein meal did increase gut discomfort a little bit, but they said it was basically modest. So on the scale of 1 to 100, it was around a 21, like change. But it started at a 12. I'm not really sure how this rating system worked, but basically their gut comfort when they started was a 12 and then it only went up to about a 21 with the protein. So they said basically it wasn't like that bad. So it seemed like still viable that people could eat a protein meal beforehand and not have too much gut discomfort. And then they referenced a lot of prior studies that have been done on eating protein as the pre -exercise fuel meal. The results have been mixed. So some studies have found increased discomfort and some have not found that. So I think it's really an individuality when it comes to, you know, what actually best suits your gut and how you feel while exercising. But in any case, that's the basics of the study. It did go into a lot more detail and nuance, but I just found it really interesting, especially for people because we get a lot of questions and maybe we'll just go ahead and read the question that we have from the listener because we get a lot of questions on this show about people struggling to work exercise in with their fasting pattern and feeling like maybe they need to eat something. And it sounds like depending on the exercise, depending on you, there might be this possibility for having a protein -rich meal, a low -carb meal, before your exercise and still burning ample amounts of fat. It's not, you're not going to be in the fasted state, so, you know, don't think it's like magical that way, but it might be an option for people. And like I said, we can maybe read that listener's question. But before we do that, do you have any thoughts or comments, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So there's a really interesting study that's similar to this that I quote all the time on my podcast, Optimal Protein Podcast, because it's all about how basically if you do facet exercise, one of the main benefits is you get mitochondrial biogenesis. And so a lot of people feel like, well, they need to work out facet even if they don't feel comfortable doing that, because they want the mitochondrial biogenesis or the genesis of more mitochondria. And this study in particular that I'm mentioning talks about how if you actually eat protein meals, high protein meals, but you're not really eating a lot of carb, you basically get two thirds of the same amount of mitochondrial biogenesis. The expression of new mitochondria, you don't get the whole amount, but as much as two thirds. So for people who feel better eating before their meals and they don't like doing facet exercise, I always say if you're doing it low carb, keto -ish, high protein meal, then you're probably going to get the same amount of mitochondrial biogenesis. But now with this awesome study you're talking about, they also can rest assured that they're going to burn probably about the same amount of fat. And that's probably the connection between the two, is that you're relying on your stored body fat and so you have to generate more mitochondria as an adaptation. So I love that you chose this one to start off with and also because it relates back to this question, which I'd love to get to.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I love that. So thank you. We'll have to put both of these studies in the show notes. And that's actually also similar because they talked about the oxidative stress potential. Yeah, they talked about the reactive oxygen species in exercise and they found that there wasn't any difference between the different arms in this study for oxidative stress markers. So that's really interesting. They actually said that that was surprising. They thought they would see a difference when they're not sure why. They said it might have to do with the fact that the individuals were well trained so that they had similar responses, which that goes into a whole rabbit hole.

Vanessa Spina:
There definitely should be way less if you're being fat -fueled because you don't have as much free radicals being created or generated from burning carbs, so I'm surprised.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, says they also found a large degree of inter individual variability, which you know what that says to me that coupled with the fact they were saying the well trained individuals that clearly, I mean, I would think that what you're eating, especially if they saw variability, then clearly the different ones are having different effects, but a lot of it probably comes down to your overall, like your overall metabolic state and your exercise potential. And, you know, if you're more attuned to exercise and dealing with oxidative stress, you're probably better at dealing with it, which may sound a little obvious. What I'm trying to say is the oxidative stress potential probably isn't just about what you're eating. It's probably your overall body composition and your health and your, you know, how trained your mitochondria are in general.

Vanessa Spina:
If you have more mitochondria, then you take the burden off a little bit of creating as much as many free radicals. But I find that surprising because still, if you're being carb fueled, you're definitely going to get more, more free radicals. So that's interesting. Maybe it was the way they were measuring it or something. But yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Melanie Avalon:
No, thank you. So again, we will put links to that in the show notes and I'll go ahead and read the question we had kind of related. So the question was from Julianne and this came from Facebook. I've been asking for questions more in Facebook, by the way. So definitely join that group. It's IF Biohackers Intermittent Fasting plus Real Foods plus Life. Tangent, I'm still hacked. So my profile in there is like my fake little baby profile that I just made recently because all my old profiles are being run by who knows random people. So if you see crazy ads for me advertising random stuff, that's not me. So just as a disclaimer, but back to the Facebook group, definitely comment in there things you would like to hear on the show because I find it really great because people can chime in in the meantime on people's comments. So Julianne's question was how to deal with fasting as a person who works out early in the mornings, weight training and cardio. I find that I get extremely tired and hungry after. Is this a sign to shorten my fasting window or is there something I can do to continue fasting after working out but not feel so exhausted? And I will just draw attention to the fact that the study I was talking about again was HIIT HIIT training. So it's really intense but it's shorter and Julianne is talking about doing weight training and cardio. So she's doing like a longer exercise she's doing strength training and she's doing catabolic fat -burning cardio. So it's a little bit of a different situation but do you have any thoughts for Julianne, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I mean, if you're doing this kind of workout, doing weight training, especially, I would wanna maximize my returns from that by having like a protein shake after my workout and maybe taking in some calories as well, just because you're expending so much energy between the weight training and the cardio, and you're gonna be expending energy with that post -exercise oxygen burn for hours afterwards. You know, right away, when I saw this question, I was like, well, if you feel extremely tired and hungry after you're listening to your body, you definitely should refuel, and the optimal time to take in protein is right after doing weight training. So based on what we were just talking about with that awesome study that you brought in and the one that I mentioned as well, if you're eating a high protein meal, you're not gonna cut down on your fat burning. I'm not gonna say it's like you're fasted, but in a sense, you know, you're getting two thirds as much of the mitochondrial biogenesis, you know, but you're eating, you still did your workout fast, so you're gonna actually get all of the mitochondrial biogenesis, you're gonna get all the fat burning, and you're not gonna reduce any of that in the recovery period afterwards if you're eating a high protein meal that's very low in carb. So like a protein shake would be amazing, I think, optimal after that, and I definitely wouldn't try to force or push fasting if you're feeling extremely tired and hungry after. It's definitely a sign that, you know, you did an amazing workout, and you probably need to refuel, and you know, you wanna take in, it's a great time to take in some amazing nutrients and you know, high quality protein right after that workout. What do you think, Mani? Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so I had a few thoughts. My one comment on that is maybe for one of the future studies I'll look because this study was looking at, you know, the protein before the exercise and how it affected fat burning. So I don't know what happens. I don't know how it would affect fat burning after exercise. I wonder if they've done a study on that and I bet they have. So I will try to find one. I just don't want to make that, at least from this study, I don't want to make that assumption. Although in theory, it would make sense if like the mechanics of the protein are not affecting fat burning. Hopefully that would extend to the post exercise fat burning potential period. So I think that's a great idea. What Vanessa said, that would be, you know, refuel with the protein, you could use her, her tone protein, that could be a great way to do it. Some ideas I had were, you're getting really tired and hungry. First of all, I would look at, at your sleep because it sounds like you're somebody you said you work out early in the morning. So it sounds like you're one of those people that gets up really early to work out, which is like literally the most, uh, I just can't do it. So props to you. Are you at all sacrificing your sleep for that workout? Because if you're starting it off in a sleep deprived state already, that can be one way to help with the tiredness that isn't even food or fasting related. So really honoring the sleep and then also, so when is your last meal? So if you don't want to eat, because basically you have kind of three options here that I was thinking you have option one that Vanessa just mentioned, which is to refuel with protein right after, which I really liked that idea. And then kind of playing around with that and maybe adjusting your fasting windows accordingly. So maybe, maybe if you weren't eating that earlier in the day beforehand, but now you are maybe like ending your eating window earlier so that you're still getting a longer fast leader. You're just kind of changing around where your fasting hours are. And again, we don't know when Julian's fasting hours are normally. So it's sort of hard to comment, but that's one idea. Second idea was to do kind of like what that study was that I just mentioned, which would be to have your protein meal, low carb protein meal right before exercising. So you would still get the fat burning and there's the potential that it might help with that tiredness, even though they didn't see any difference in performance between the three different arms, other studies have. And it might be for you that that's like what helps. And especially actually backtracking that study did mention that like studies on longer duration exercise, which it sounds like what Julian is doing, that the meal likely has more of an effect. So that might be a way to solve that, to have that protein meal beforehand. And then again, you could kind of do that trick. I just mentioned where if you were eating later on the day, kind of stopping your eating window earlier in the day. So now you're kind of just shifting around your fasting hours to keep the same amount of fasting hours, but fueling that workout with protein with a low carb meal. Other option I thought of was if you are eating dinner still, so if you're still eating like kind of late at night or dinner, and then you're waking up and doing your workout, maybe, I don't know, this is controversial, maybe eating later or eating more the night before. So really getting in your fuel, ample fuel the night before, maybe that would be enough to carry you through with that morning workout. Because again, I don't know when your normal eating window is. So it might be that you're stopping eating too early in the evening, and so by the time you're fast to workout, you're just too much into the fast. Maybe you need a shorter overnight fast for that. So that's an option as well. Basically, there's a lot of options to play around with. I'm a bad person to ask because I'm like, just don't work out early in the morning because I don't like that. But you do you and I support. So definitely let us know, Julian, if you find something that works for you. Do you have any other comments, Vanessa? No, I think that was great. Awesome. Okay, so I will go ahead and read another question. Valerie wants to know, how do you find the right fasting window, the time of day plus duration for you? And I was really excited to talk about this because I don't think Vanessa and I have talked about this on the show. I was actually going to ask you, Vanessa, how do you recommend people find the fasting window that works for them?

Vanessa Spina:
I think experimentation is really, really useful when it comes to this because you're only really going to be able to dial in what you like best with trying lots of different ways of doing it. So I remember when I first, first started intermittent fasting, you know, I read Oreo Hoffa Makers book, the warrior diet. So I tried, you know, fasting all day and just having the OMAAD, one meal a day at dinner, but I have tried every single variation. And sometimes I think I'll like a certain approach and then I'll try it and I don't like it. And then other times I think I won't like it and I end up liking it. So, you know, I thought that I would love doing breakfast and lunch and not having dinner. Did not like that at all. It didn't work for us as a family and it just was not, you know, convenient or sustainable. And then I thought that I would really not like doing breakfast and then dinner and fasting between breakfast and dinner. But I ended up liking that, you know, and sometimes, you know, I revert back to different, you know, I've actually been going back to doing one meal a day more recently and I'm really enjoying that again. So, you know, I think you have to try out different things and, you know, if you could try out the first one, you could love it and then be done or you could try it out and be like, this doesn't work for me and kind of, you know, try different variations. But it also depends on your goals and, you know, what you're wanting to to achieve. But I think the best way is just by trying different ones and then, you know, starting with something that you think lines up with one of your goals and seeing how that works for you. What about you? Didn't you say you're doing one meal?

Melanie Avalon:
meal a day now.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so recently, I've gone back to doing one meal a day and just trying that on the weekends, I usually go back to doing breakfast and dinner. And that's usually because, you know, we're all together with the family, we're having those meals together. But like Monday to Friday, I have been going back to doing my one meal a day, which is not really one meal, it's more like dinner. And then I have a protein shake a little bit later on. So it's kind of like two meals, but it feels like one meal. And I'm just really finding it works great for me during the day. In terms of like having lots of energy during the day, I end up doing my workout fasted. And, you know, my days right now are not because I'm on maternity leave, they're pretty slow. So, you know, there's I'm not doing a ton of activity. I am like breastfeeding actively, and that's going great. And, you know, it didn't affect my breastfeeding, because I still maintain my hydration, I maintain my calorie level, quite high, and, you know, eat tons of protein and nutrient dense foods. So I think, you know, that's, that's really important. But, you know, playing around with the different windows, like I was saying, that's, that's really how you find what's best for you. And it also depends on what you're optimizing for. Like when I was pregnant, you know, I wasn't able to fast all day and just have one meal a day, you know, that's, that's probably pretty obvious. But, you know, for some people, that might actually still work for them. I don't know, it depends on the person depends on the individual, most people probably wouldn't be able to fast all day while pregnant. I didn't think that I would be able to do OMAD while breastfeeding. And yet, I tried it actually kind of came about accidentally, because we all got the stomach flu. And I had no appetite for several days. And I was, I was a little bit concerned that it would affect my supply, but I maintain my hydration as taking my element the entire time, because I still I wasn't having aversions to that. So even though I didn't want to eat anything, I was able to keep my hydration up. And that really, really helped. And thankfully, it didn't affect my supply, even though I couldn't eat for a few days. And then I was like, I think maybe I'll, you know, try the OMAD and see how that goes. And it also didn't affect my supply. So you know, I think that just works well for me. It's a pattern that I really like. So yeah, that's, that's sort of what I'm doing right now.

Melanie Avalon:
for listeners if they would like to get element electrolytes, which we love. They have an unflavored one, which is clean, fast friendly, and then they have a lot of awesome flavors as well, if you would like to have around your eating window. So you can go to www .drinklmnt .com slash ifpodcast, and that will get you a free sample pack with your purchase, which is awesome. It's funny, I had COVID over the holidays as well, which is not the same thing as the flu. I do, but when I got that, all I wanted was meat, and so I actually did a carnivore stent for 10 days. Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, it was interesting that last time I got COVID, too, it was the same thing. I think I was just so exhausted, and my body was like, I just need pure nutrients, which is meat. So yeah, those were great recommendations. I love how you experiment with so many different windows. We're very different that way.

Vanessa Spina:
like this month I could be back on two meals a day or I could be doing three meals a day or yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I've been doing the same thing for, you know, a decade, haven't budged, maybe tried something different like once. I was like, nope. My recommendation. So I actually created a quiz for this question. So if you go to Melanie Avalon .com slash if quiz, I totally forgot about this quiz completely until I read this question. I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot that I had this. I should retake it myself right now. So go there and it will make a recommendation for the type of fasting you should do. Like whether you should do like a one meal day type approach, whether you should do where you're counting the hours on the clock, like I just have different options that it'll give you. But the way I formulated it is I always kind of approach it from like, what's important to you in your life. So rather than starting with like, I'm going to do this hours of fasting, I ask questions like what meals are most important to you in general? Like I think that's a good place to start. Are you, you know, are you a breakfast person? Are you a lunch person? Are you a dinner person? Cause that's going to, first of all, that's going to show you which hours of the day you should probably be eating ish. And then beyond that, like once you kind of know the general time of the day that you want it to be, then it's like, do you, like, how do you feel with the counting and the rules aspect of it? So like, do you want to kind of not really count hours and like go by the clock? Do you want to just be more general and vague? So it's like, oh, I'm, I eat lunch and dinner or I eat dinner or I eat breakfast. Like that approach works really well for some people. Some people want like the accountability and the boundaries and they find freedom in the rules. So for them, it's like they want to count the specific hours that they're eating or on the flip side, they want to count the specific hours that they're fasting. I found that there's two types of people. Some people like to count the fasting. Some people like to count the eating. I always, when I started, I like to count the fasting hours. So I would always make sure that I went like a minimum of a certain amount of hours and then I would eat. But it's like Jen, for example, my former co -host, she always counted the eating hours. So like she, she would stop eating by a certain time, for example, and that's what made her feel the best. Whereas to me, that was like really scary because like I, not scary, but I, like when I'm eating, I don't want to like think, oh, I have to be done eating by this certain amount of time. Like I just want to feast and eat and like all the things. So there's a lot of mindset that actually goes into finding your perfect window. And then I think also you can either, you know, if you feel comfortable and think it would work for you, you can start intense with like, you know, one meal a day or a 17, 18, 19 hour fast. Some people need to go more slowly and start with like a 12 hour fast and slowly increase. So basically there's a lot of psychology that goes into it. I really think it's more psychology than maybe not more than anything else, but that's a major part in finding your right eating window. And also just know that you don't have to like get it right the first time. So like Vanessa was saying, if, if you try something and it doesn't work, that's fine. Also make sure that you give it enough time to see if it's working, especially if you're not fat adapted. So like, if you're not fat adapted and you try fasting for a day and you're like, oh, I can't do this, like give it longer. Like commit, commit to, um, I mean, it's hard to put a number on it, but you definitely want to commit to it long enough to make those adaptations and see if it actually is working for you and then tweaking accordingly. But yeah, I would definitely just start with melonyablon .com slash if quiz, and that will be a great starting point for you. You can also get my book, what, when wine, I talk all about this in there as well with much more detail. Yeah. Yeah. Any other thoughts about that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I think that was amazing. He created a quiz for it. That's so perfect for anyone listening to go and try it.

Melanie Avalon:
I should go make some more quizzes. Have you ever made a quiz?

Vanessa Spina:
I think I yeah I've done I've done them before using I think I used something called monkey survey a long time ago and it was really fun.

Melanie Avalon:
I remember when I was researching it and I remember Monkey Survey being one of the ones I was looking at, it's just so much that you have to think about the questions, how much are they weighted, how much do they affect the outcome, and if you go down this route, does it... It's like a whole thing. I was like, oh, this is like a whole thing. I was really happy with the outcome because I would take it and it works for me, it gives me what I am. I would be curious what it... Ooh, you should take it and see what it gives you, I'd be really curious. Really fun. Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. The show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. Those will be at ifodcast .com slash episode 360. Don't forget to go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe and or write a brief review and or update your review that you wrote in the past for the show and then send a screenshot of that review to questions at ifodcast .com so we can enter you into our giveaway to win the full AvalonX line, Vanessa's Tone Protein, as well as a special surprise from MD Logic. Yeah, you can get all of the stuff that we like at ifpodcast .com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram, we are ifodcast, I am Melanie Avalon, Vanessa is Katogenic Girl, and I am now on TikTok, Melanie Avalon Biohacker. So I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun and can't wait to record the next one with you.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. This has been so amazing. I will talk to you next week. OK, talk to you then. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermission Fasting podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. See you next week.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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Welcome to Episode 359 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Listener Q&A: Sadi - Total protein for the day

Listener Q&A: Karen - Can you speak to ‘natural flavors’?

Listener Q&A: Katie - I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein

Listener Q&A: Marisa - Can you please address Isoleucine restriction as it relates to longevity?

Dietary restriction of isoleucine increases healthspan and lifespan of genetically heterogeneous mice

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - Thoughts on taking mineral supplements

Listener Q&A: Lori - I’d love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss after the age of 50

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 359 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Spina, and I have a wonderful co host joining us again, Scott Emmons from MD Logic. How are you doing today, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I'm doing wonderful. Pleasure to be back on the show with you, Vanessa. Looking forward to our questions for the day. I always get to learn so much and get a further understanding of what people are concerned with and the questions they have recently. So yeah, super excited.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Yeah, I'm excited too and just can't wait to get into these questions. I had so much fun recording the last one with you. So much fun to have you back here on this one. And it's early March when this episode is coming out, and it's my birthday week, march eigth.

Scott Emmens:
Hey, happy birthday.

Vanessa Spina:
Thanks.

Scott Emmens:
Spring break is coming up. The weather should be breaking soon, so looking forward to that.

Vanessa Spina:
I am too. I'm really excited for just spring in general. I mean, I'm enjoying winter more and more since I have started embracing the cold, learning about circadian health, cold adaptation, which we were just talking about on the last episode, and all the benefits that you get from that. So we could talk actually a little bit about morning routines. But since I've been diving more deeply into this red light is a huge part of my morning routine and also getting out and getting the sun on my body throughout the day, but specifically, especially at two times, and that's at sunrise if I'm up for it, which I usually am. And in the winter, like just standing out there and doing some grounding. Standing out in our garden, doing some grounding. I definitely look like a psychopath if you are not into any of this stuff. But I'm barefoot in the garden, like, walking around just for, like, five to ten minutes, getting some light on my body. And it's amazing to know that that's really signaling the melanopsin in my eyes and skin and initiating these hormonal cascades and also getting a bit of uva light a little bit later in the morning. And it's so important in the winter, I think about so often so many of us work and live in indoor environments now, which is such a contrast to our ancestors. And not only that, but windows that we have filter out most of the red light, and they let in all the blue, and then we're staring at blue screens. It's almost like we're in an experiment designed to see, how bad is blue light for you. Because the way we live our lives, we just get so little natural light. And you think about the time, if you don't live in Hawaii or Australia or other parts, the winter is generally cold, and so we're indoors even more. And I'm one of those people who always used to want to be comfortable all the time. And if I saw someone outside in the morning, in the winter, barefoot, I'd be like, what is going on with that person? But apparently, getting that light exposure during the day is even more important than avoiding blue light at night, which says so much, right?

Scott Emmens:
100%. It is so difficult to do in the winter, but I have really made an effort. Now my son thinks I'm insane because where I ground, he has a sliding basement door. So I'm standing in front of his sliding basement door. So when he opens his curtains every now and then, he sees his dad in shorts in, like, 30 degree weather, standing barefoot out in the sun. He's like, dad, you're mental. And I'm like, listen, kid, when you're 52, you're going to be doing the same thing because you're going to be in worse shape than me, because at least in my 20s, we were outdoors doing things we didn't have computers. You're right. The amount of blue light, and more importantly, the fact that we really don't get much sunlight on our face. Like, you get in your car, you might have a little commute, but even then, your windows might be tinted, and even a non tinted window is preventing some of the natural light from getting to you. You really have to get some direct face and eye and skin exposure. And the earlier in the morning, the better. It's going to reset your clock. And if you don't believe me, go camping for a week. Don't bring any melatonin or sleep aids. Go out there, wake up when the sun goes up, and I promise you, by 930, you will be knocked out dead asleep.

Vanessa Spina:
We spent so much time at our cabin or cottage growing up, and I always used to go to bed at, like, eight whenever we're there, when we're camping, it's the same thing. And I always used to think it was because we didn't have tv, but it's probably that blue light coming from screens and just the routines that are so important. And it's amazing how these simple, free hacks are just aligning ourselves with that circadian rhythm that ancestrally, we would have spent all of our time outdoors. Even if we were sleeping in caves or in different fabricated habitats, we would have been outside all the time. And now we're doing the exact opposite of that. And it's amazing how these really simple things, like grounding like that. It's funny your son laughs at you because Luca loves it. Like, kids have so much brown fat all over their bodies, and we can actually gain it back. So there was this one study where this individual had a tumor on their adrenal glands, and they were constantly secreting adrenaline, and they had brown fat all over their bodies, so we can actually get it back. But when you're born, you have so much of it. So Luca doesn't really feel the cold, much. Like when we're outside in the winter, he loves it, and it's very rare that he'll say to me, like, I'm cold. And it's because it's really cold, and he's, like, dropped a glove or something like that. But kids have so much brown fat, they're constantly outside trying to take clothes off, and we're, like, putting layers on. You know, we can really learn so much from that. They're also in and out of ketosis all the time. And that's been really interesting with Luca because I have the tone device. I can check his ketones, and he loves it. Like, daddy checks his ketones, mommy checks her ketones, and he loves just taking it and blowing into it. And it's kind of fun because it's got graphics on it, and it gives know a number, like a readout, and he's in ketosis all the time. And we're born with that. The brown fat and the metabolic flexibility and our super comfortable lifestyles and environments and convenience food basically gets rid of all of those superpowers that we're born with. And now we're trying to reclaim through these different biohacks and things.

Scott Emmens:
People, they look at biohacking and they sort of think, like, I don't know if they think it's cheating or it's crazy, but really, we're just trying to get our bodies back to the natural state of things. It's because the modern lifestyle makes that know. It's funny, I hadn't even thought of this till you mentioned luca, but I remember being five to, like, eight and outside for five or 6 hours in the snow, making a snowman, like, for literally hours and not getting cold.

Vanessa Spina:
Same. Making a fort.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, making a fort, which was. God, I used to love that your.

Vanessa Spina:
Parents have to call you in and you're like, no.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it was very rare that maybe my feet would get cold or something, or my hands, because the gloves were so. But, like, my body, I don't really recall shivering. I was basically out there building snow forts, having snowball fights, making snowmen for hours. And I think a lot of it was just your body's natural adaptation and the brown fat you develop and have when you're young. So that's an interesting observation with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I notice that, and I hear it from other people who practice similar morning routines with grounding, with red lights. I'll tell you mine, basically, I do that outside, and I turn on red light if I'm up before sunrise and just have it ambiently. So, like, if I'm in the bathroom with Luca or he's having a bath or something, and he know having the red light, and I try to do my red light therapy session sometime in there, and then typically, I'll have a coffee with almond milk. And that's usually how I start, like, the first hour of my day or so. What about you?

Scott Emmens:
My first hour of the day is, typically, I will try to go for either a walk if it's too cold, if it's not too cold, I'll be able to go outside on the grass. Can't be concrete, or it's got to be grass. Barefoot, maybe ten minutes in the sun, not long, just ten minutes in the sun. And then I will be usually drinking my coffee simultaneously. Then, if I still have the time, I'll make some fresh squeezed lemon juice, which is really great to get your bile and your liver kind of going for the day. And then I may wait an hour or two, take a berberine, and then I'll make usually like three to four eggs over easy, and that's pretty much it. I just eat those eggs and that gets me through most of the day to like 132 o'clock. But my morning routine is basically getting light. That's the most important thing. Grounding if possible, and then coffee with some nutrients, electrolytes and hydration. Pretty simple.

Vanessa Spina:
I love hearing people's morning routines. I have this one book, and I think it's called morning rituals of creatives or something like that. And it talks about all the highest producing poets and writers and scientists, and every page is like their morning routine. And sometimes it's their whole day. And it's so funny because it's like some of the most prolific writers that we absolutely adore and revere. They were like sleeping in the day, getting up, smoking a pack of cigarettes, having coffee, staying indoors a lot, just like some really unhealthy situations. But it's like they did whatever they could to preserve their creative energies. And it's just funny because some of them are really healthy, and then others are just like, they're so unhealthy, and yet it was whatever they needed to be able to perform. And I know for myself, in order to be really productive and clear and coherent and creative, especially, I have to protect my mental energy so much. The rest of the time when I'm not preparing to podcast, I have to do nothing. I have to basically do nothing. And I also have to protect myself constantly from negative news and negative, just negativity. And if I do that, then I can be really creative and high producing. And it's almost to the point where I have all these boundaries around me to prevent that stuff from getting in. But I have to be like this, and I have to tell my husband all the time, I don't want to hear that a horrible story, because I have to protect my energy. And it's interesting. Do you have anything like that that you feel like you have to create boundaries around or to get in a flow state or something?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, so that's fascinating. I had not even mentioned this to you at all, I don't think. But I have been working on some articles and considering. So launching a podcast that's going to be health based, probably January 22 is my goal, but let's just hope it's January 22. But I also have been thinking about launching a podcast called emotional conservation. And it's a combination. Yeah, seriously. So this is so crazy that you're mentioning this, because I haven't mentioned this to anyone.

Vanessa Spina:
Wow.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah. And the whole idea is that, look, you only have so much creative mental energy to output, right? What are the things you can do to help yourself keep both your emotional conservation and your emotional iq functioning? So your emotional iq is how well you're able to empathize, how well you're able to understand what other people are going through and when the right thing to say is something. But when your emotional conservation or your emotional stores are low, your emotional iq by default, even if you know what to do, becomes harder to do it because you're agitated, you're tired, you haven't saved up the energy, you can't be creative. You get overwhelmed. So that's something I've been digging a lot into. And one of the things I found that's been helpful is not just the morning routine, but the nighttime routine helps set up the morning routine. So, for example, I have a jug of water that I put next to my bed before I go to bed. I have an electrolyte pack next to that jug of water. And so sometimes I'll take electrolytes, sometimes I won't, but I will chug the water first thing in the morning when I wake up. That's like the first thing I do. But I have it in the night, my gratitude journal. Instead of writing in the morning when I've already, like, I'm ready to go and get going, I'll kind of write that in the evening. If I've got concerns or worries, I write those down in the evening, shut off my phone, I put it on do not disturb in airplane mode around 930 or 10:00 and then that's it. Then I get in bed and I'm prepared and ready for the next day because I don't have things hanging over me. I know what I want to do. And that helps with the emotional conservancy. And then as far as the news and negative media, yeah, that doesn't go on at all past like 02:00 if ever. I just try to skip through it. Even when I go to my little Microsoft browser and it's got articles that are clickbait, I'm like, skip. No, don't want to hear that. Don't care because you've only got so much emotion to give out. Yeah, really interesting you mentioned that. So you may be seeing the emotional conservation podcast sometime in 2024.

Vanessa Spina:
Well, you're going to have to have me on as a guest because I'm obsessed with this topic.

Scott Emmens:
You're booked. Consider yourself booked.

Vanessa Spina:
It's so funny because I just tell Pete all the time. He's a protector, he's a provider, he's a protector. He's constantly screening information for danger. He's on Twitter or x a lot, and he's like telling me information and I'm like, this information does nothing for me or for my ability to create positivity in the world. And he doesn't fully get it, I think, because he really needs to be informed because that's his primary goal, is, like, protecting and providing for us. But I'm a creative person and that stuff just sucks all my positive energy out and it just kills it. And there's so much negative news that is so like this really disempowering feeling. I'm not saying be ignorant, but you feel so disempowered by it. And so I think maybe I'm sensitive also to other people's states. Anytime I hear about something horrible happening, I'm like, to someone else, I just feel it. I feel it. And then I can't get in a good state to be creative or I can't get in the flow. You really have to protect yourself and your mental energy if you're going to go out and create and have the energy to create. And at the end of the day, I think it's okay to be maybe a little bit ignorant sometimes of the bad things happening in the world because that's what the news is always highlighting. And they're not highlighting the fact that, let's say, 500,000 successful births happened today. And this 95 year old man celebrated his birthday surrounded by all his family. And these people just got a well in their village. Actually, there's some Instagram accounts now that finally have good news. Those are the only ones, like, to follow. But it doesn't get clicks, it doesn't get reactions. And now it seems like so much of the content that we see is like, there's actually accounts that I've heard on podcasts. Their whole mo is just posting stuff that is controversial or gives you a negative reaction because it gets the most engagement. Like they purposely are designing content for people that will make them click or comment. And it's the stuff that makes you feel outraged. And it's like, I don't want to feel outraged. I don't want to feel all this. And then all your energy then goes towards that, and then you don't have it left for yourself and for the good you want to put out for the good you want to put out into the world. So I think it's okay to be conservative. And be protective of your energy.

Scott Emmens:
And I used to be a lot like Pete, right? And I would do dive into research and articles and what's going on in the world and try to spread this information. And what I found was it didn't make my family happier. It didn't help them. It made them feel exactly like you said. And I think the more empathetic you are, the more it negatively affects you because you want to help. But there's very little that you can tangibly do in a lot of these situations. Can you be supportive of people? Can you feel empathy for them? Yes. But the way that it's portrayed is sort of like it's your fault the environment's dying and it's your fault and you should do this. And people, then, they want to pick sides. Look, we pick sides over football teams and politicians and whether this brand is better than that brand, or whether we pick sides over almost anything. And I think that's been weaponized to some extent because it works to your point. It gets clicks, it gets people engaged. It gets engagement, it keeps people on. I don't see people on twitter for 2 hours having, hey, I really like you too. I think your point is wrong. And your point. No, here's my point. And you know what happens at the end of the day, neither one of them has convinced them of anything other than they've spent 2 hours arguing and spending a lot of negative energy. So I just walked away from that because it doesn't do any good. And it does leave you feeling a little bit unempowered. But also for people, like, I think for you and I and other people that are empathetic, it kind of hurts. And it leaves with this sort of sad feeling. So I get where Pete's coming from, and I used to do that same thing, and I just realized it's not helping my family. And frankly, it wasn't helping me either, because I'm like, I started spinning down this negative sort of spiral in my. Got to cut that out. So about three years ago, I just stopped watching the news pretty much altogether. But believe it or not, no matter how much you try to not watch the news, you still get it anyway. So if it's really that important, you're not going to be ignorant. You're going to hear about it, you're going to know about it. It's just not in your face all the time. It's not being presented by me to my family where they're like, is dad losing it? He really seems tense about this stuff. And kids want to feel safe.

Vanessa Spina:
It's designed to make you tense. It's designed to make tense and to react and to get that reaction from you. And I'm so glad that you became aware of it. It's hard sometimes to make people be aware of it. I have this game I play with Pete, so he'll tell me the news of the day, and I'm like, thanks for the daily outrage. We're all addicted to it, and it is very addictive. And I think he'll smile when I say that. But it's true. Your brain starts to become more and more wired a certain way towards getting used to receiving certain feelings and emotions and reactions. And it's definitely being used against us. Like, the fact that we are like that and the fact that we're programmed to always be looking for that tiger in the bush, that the negative stuff, it sticks out. It stands out so much more. And you have to actually deliberately put boundaries around yourself to make sure you cultivate the opposite, because you're always going to be. We are the descendants of the most paranoid, the most conspiracy theorists, like cavemen and women, because the ones who were not looking for the tigers in the bush got pretty much eaten, right?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, they're right here. Welcome to the Daily ps. Stay with Scott and Vanessa.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I could talk about this stuff for hours. Yeah, I love talking about morning routines. Biohacks. I got all fired up about the biohacks from the last episode that we talked about. We had some really phenomenal questions, as usual. Let's get into some of today's questions. The first one comes to us from Sadie, if you'd like to read it, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. Thank you, Sadie, for the question from Sadie. I understand the concept and goal of consuming x amount of total protein per day. For me, it's desired body weight or lean mass because I have a lot of body fat to lose. And the goal to consume at least 30 to 40 grams of protein at each meal to get enough leucine to activate PMS. I don't think we want to activate PMS. I think we're talking about muscle protein synthesis, or in this case, protein muscle synthesis. But vanessa, I would guess we're not looking to activate PMS anytime.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't want to activate PMS. I definitely want to activate muscle protein synthesis. And we all know Sadie was meaning to say muscle protein synthesis, but she probably had autocorrect on, and it gets me every.

Scott Emmens:
So we had to have a little fun with that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love typos. I love them. They are.

Scott Emmens:
So, yeah, enough leucine to activate muscle protein synthesis. But if I'm doing one to two protein shakes a day to help keep calories low, lose body fat with just one scoop of whey protein, 20 grams of protein with added EA powder to increase the leucine content to activate mps. Doing this until tone protein comes out. Would my total protein for the day decrease since each shake is only 20 grams, but enough leucine to activate? Hope that makes sense. So you think, yes, it does. But vanessa, take it away.

Vanessa Spina:
So this is exactly why we created tone protein is to be able to hit your protein target without having to take down like six chicken breasts all the time, and to be able to eating 100 to 150 grams of protein. I think a lot of people fall in that sort of amount for their daily target, and it's sometimes hard to get that. That's like the number one thing I hear from people is that how do I possibly eat this much protein a day? We're not used to it. Maybe men are more used to it. Women are not used to it. We're used to eating salads and light food, calorie light foods and diet foods and things like that that we were told would help us recompose our bodies. We didn't know we were supposed to be eating the protein and hitting the gym instead of eating the salads and hitting the treadmill. And that's shifting. Now we're understanding what fitness really is from a female perspective as well. And I think just hitting that protein target, it can be difficult because it's a learning curve. There's a learning curve, and I've learned how to do it in different ways. But I wanted to create something that I myself could use so that I could take one serving of a high quality whey protein shake that is enhanced with leucine, similar to what you're doing by adding in some actually essential amino acids. But you could just be adding in bcaas and you'd be enhancing your protein meal or your protein shake, in this case, with the added leucine content. And so you don't need the EAA powder, just bcas. Or you could just take tone protein because you said you were doing this until tone protein comes out, and it's definitely out now. And so you could either do that, keep doing what you're doing, or you could try tone protein because it does the same thing. But to answer your question, your total protein for the day will decrease because you're getting maybe five or six less grams. Doing a scoop of tone protein or the scoop of the whey protein with the added bcaas. So the shakes, like you were saying, they end up being less than that. Like 30 to 35 grams range that I recommend for a protein meal. But it doesn't matter because what matters is you're raising the level leucine in your blood to initiate pms or muscle protein synthesis.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, we'll call that protein muscle synthesis.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, exactly.

Scott Emmens:
It is mps, though, for folks who just want to be totally clear on it. By the time folks are hearing this podcast, Vanessa MD Logical have launched a leucine only capsule. So you will not need to have anything other than just the leucine capsule. And you can add it to the whey protein, although you don't need to because you're getting four full grams. But let's say you're traveling and you want to have the chicken breast, but you want to make sure you're getting enough leucine or you want to have just two spikes. You want to have a spike before your workout, but you don't want to have another protein shake. You just want to have a full meal, but you want to just kind of make sure. Am I getting that leucine? You'll get three capsules, will give you 1.5 grams. So if you do four capsules, you'd be close to two. And six capsules give you a full 3 grams of leucine. So if you were to take three capsules with a meal, you'd probably be right in that three to four gram range, depending on the meal you're eating. We will probably also, by this point, have an essential amino acid powder out that's going to be coming out and it will have 2 grams of leucine total. So it's not going to hit that quite that four. But to me, that would be something that I'm going to experiment with pre workout. So it's going to be kind of my pre workout drink. I might add a leucine capsule or two to it prior to my workout. And then my post workout is going to be the tone protein because I'm going to get the full grams of a complete 20 grams of protein plus the 4 grams of leucine. For me, it's hard for me to drink a protein shake and work out, like to be a little lighter in my stomach when I work out. So I'm probably going to do like an EA pre workout, maybe with a leucine cap or not. And then my tone protein shake will either be like in the morning as a substitute for my breakfast. And then that'll be my post workout because I'm really at that age of 52, it's getting more difficult to maintain muscle mass. So that's probably going to be my routine. I'll keep you posted once if I get to come back after March and we'll let you know how that routine is going. But I'm super excited just for the tone. I've seen an improvement with just that, but I think my routine is going to be a tone protein post an EA pre and loosing capsules with meals or when I'm traveling and I just can't bring along the tone or the that.

Vanessa Spina:
I love that. And yeah, I love that you love tone protein, too, and so does Sadie. I hope that you get to try it out and let us know how you are liking it, Sadie. But I love that in the know you crafted your own formulation. That's totally what I've been doing for so. And I know you have been too, Scott. So our next question comes to us from Karen on Facebook, and she says, can you speak to, quote unquote, natural flavors? I have heard and read to steer clear as there isn't much regulation on what they can include. However many products that are endorsed by people that I have come to trust have them. So how do you shift through what is healthy and what is not?

Scott Emmens:
So that's a great question. And I think the reason that you are saying many people you've come to trust have them in their products is in order to make any kind of flavor, you need a natural flavor binder of some kind. For vanilla, for example, it's very hard to extract the flavor out of the bean. And so you need to utilize the natural vanilla flavor and combine it with other natural flavors to make sure that it pops. So if you've got a reputable company that you trust and people that you trust, they're going to have natural flavors that are exactly what they say, right? It's natural flavors to enhance the vanilla flavor or the orange flavor. So if it's a protein drink from a company you trust, or it is a pre workout drink from a company that you trust, and there aren't 18 or 19 different ingredients like silicon dioxides and dyes and flavors and other things, I think you're really safe. Now, they are regulated in terms of grass, meaning the FDA says they have to be generally recognized as safe. You'll often hear that referred to as grass. So they have to be generally recognized as safe to be included in whatever it is you're eating. Where I get concerned on natural flavors is particularly in things like processed foods or processed sugary drinks. For example. Potato chips are a good example. Cheetos are a good example. Fast food is another one where they'll add these natural flavors. And at that point, it could be a cacophony of 19 different ingredients. Whereas typically, when you're looking at something like a whey protein or a pre workout drink, you're looking at two or three ingredients in those natural flavors that are not only grass, but in our case, make sure that they're beyond grass. They're safe for your body to take. So I think if it's someone you trust and a brand you trust and it's in a health product, you can be pretty confident you're in good shape. If it's coming from potato chips or some sort of dorito like or spicy sort of salty thing, or fast food, processed food or frozen pizzas, I'd steer away from those so I wouldn't lump them all in the same bucket. There's definitely a distinction between brands you trust in the health space and your processed foods or sausages and things like that. So hopefully that helps clarify the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing all that information, Scott. I know being involved in supplement manufacturing for so many years, you are the best person to ask this question to, and it's really helpful and informative. So thank you so much for answering that. And thank you, Karen, for your question. And we have a question from Katie on Facebook.

Scott Emmens:
Okay. Hi Katie, thank you for your question. I am so torn between fasting and eating enough protein. I've been fasting 18 to 20 hours a day, occasionally 20 to 24 for three plus years. It's weird for me to eat before 01:00 p.m. I have such a hard time doing that. I'm usually at work and prefer to eat when I get home. And for years I've heard in your podcast and others that a four to six hour eating window was great for health. But now I'm learning more about the power of eating more protein, especially in menopause. I am almost 53 and have been in menopause for two years. Do I ditch the short eating window for more protein or try to cram it all in in 4 hours? Does Vanessa still fast? Question mark. I think I remember her saying on her podcast she now eats breakfast shortly after waking and then around dinner at six ish. I'm not sure which approach to take, but I'm afraid to stop my fasting. My weight loss has been creeping up ten pounds since last summer. So maybe I need to shift to more protein and a shorter fast. Great question.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, thank you so much for this question, Katie. Now this is a question where if Melanie was here, we'd probably have a little bit different responses because I know that she has a little bit of a different approach than I do, and she tends to do that shorter eating window, more omad style, but with a long window where she gets all of her protein in in that day. Now, as for me, I do approach it a little bit differently, and I have been changing it up in the last years, I have been trying different approaches. Now, I found that when I'm traveling and we're at a resort, which is kind of where this all started, it was way easier for me to do the half board. That's a really common thing at resorts here in Europe and in Greece, where we go, they have this breakfast option with this incredible breakfast buffet. So I had to get that in. And then I ended up just fasting until dinner because I felt fully satisfied from an amazing, nutrient dense breakfast. And that was a way for me to adapt in that situation. Then I kept doing it for a while we were home, but I naturally started gravitating back towards doing more of the 16 eight, the lunch and dinner. And I've talked to a lot of experts about this, especially Dr. Don Layman. And I am not a big fan personally of Omad, unless someone maybe is using it to either lose the last five to ten pounds and then they just want to maintain and just eat one meal a day because they like that. So some people really like that routine. It frees up your day from having to cook and prepare meals and clean up after. You could just eat once and some people love that. Now, I find that in terms of my personal approach, it's optimal for me to eat around midday. It's usually after my fasted workout and I feel great having a meal then at that time, it works really well for me socially as well. And I am also not hungry, just like you in the mornings. I just don't typically have a big appetite in the morning, so it just suits me better. I find I'm more energetic when I'm out doing errands or working out, and I have found that to work really well for me. So I prefer to have a 16 eight eating window. I don't think you need to get it in four to 6 hours. I think if you are someone who is over the age of 40, I personally believe you should be eating at least twice a day and protein focused meals at both of those meals because our rates of muscle protein breakdown do go up and we have lower levels of hormones as we get older and so we don't have the same anabolic signals or stimulus that we used to with hormones. So instead of having those hormone levels helping us to retain our muscle, now we have to use protein, protein intake to get enough protein at a meal to initiate muscle protein synthesis. And resistance training provides another anabolic signal to tell your body, we need this muscle. She's using it, he's using it. We have to hold on to it and maybe even grow it. And you have to send those signals that way because you don't have those hormones to rely on anymore. I also don't like too much extended fasting past the age of 40 because that muscle is so precious and it's hard to put muscle on. It's really hard to put muscle on and it's hard to maintain it as well, and also to have strong muscles and bones. So resistance training anywhere from two to four times a week, at a minimum two a week and a minimum two meals a day. If you really want to focus on building muscle, minimum three meals a day. And I sometimes do that. I sometimes have lunch, dinner, and I often will have a protein shake after dinner with tone protein. Now I'm having two a day. So you could say I'm up to four a day and I'm not really concerned about the fasting window. So you sort of ended the question saying that your weight has been creeping up about ten pounds. If you're after body recomp, body recomposition, fat loss and retention of your lean mass. I would say to me, this is like a great switch up, going from fasting 18 up to 22, 24 hours a day to now you're eating two meals. I can't tell you how many messages and emails I get from people who say they've added in another protein meal and their fat loss has really ramped up effortlessly because you also get the satiating effect from the protein that's so high, the thermic effect of protein, which helps you burn more calories. I've just get countless messages from people saying that they've added in. Either they've gone from one meal a day to two or they've gone from two to three and they're just eating more protein and suddenly their clothes are fitting better and they've lost ten to 20 pounds. So if you're feeling stuck, there's no better time than to try a different approach to switch it up. And I would not worry about trying to fast the most amount of hours in a day. I think you're going to get better results if you add a protein meal in. What do you think, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I completely agree. I think you're going to get better results by adding in more protein and having a larger eating window. So my wife actually, she's going to kill me if she hears this podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
I remember this.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, my wife went into menopause about 18 months ago and put on about ten or 15 pounds. And I'm not saying a word, even though I'm not saying anything. But one day she finally says, how could I maybe lose some weight? I feel like I'm gaining a lot of weight since menopause. And I said we could try this. Are you saying I'm fat? I'm like, no, you asked me my opinion. But what we did is we just added protein to her diet in the morning, which helped curb her typically high carbohydrate meal in the afternoon. So I just added in berberine and 20 grams of tonin, the 2 grams of additional leucine. She's lost about six pounds in about six weeks, which she's thrilled about, and that's without any hormone treatment. So she is going to examine maybe some low hormone treatment, including testosterone. I think women underestimate the need for testosterone because you don't just lose estrogen, you lose all of the hormones, including testosterone, which is highly anabolic. And Vanessa brought up a lot of good points. That protein itself is thermogenic, but when you have more muscle mass, you're burning more calories effortlessly because those muscles require a high caloric intake, you're able to do more exercise. But at the end of the day, what you're also doing when you're kind of starving yourself is you're losing your muscle mass and making it harder for your body to lose the fat because you're burning muscle mass and fat equally. When your body is in that sort of starvation mode, if you were to increase your fast to 22 to 24 hours, I think your body would just kind of go into starvation mode and you get what's called skinny fat, right, where you might not be necessarily overweight, but you might not have the muscle mass you need. And we know that as you age, muscle mass, particularly post menopause, is so important for both men and women over the age of 50 to predict their overall health span and their longevity. So I think this is a great timing. It seems like you're gaining some weight with what you're currently doing, I don't think extending your fast is going to do any good. And I know Vanessa has several studies that have also suggested that fasting with additional protein actually has better output in terms of body composition and weight loss. Or at least body composition and fat loss, I should say. Sometimes we get weight and fat confused. It's definitely from the research I've seen that she shared the way to go, I think this is the perfect time to try it. I would definitely go that route.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm excited to hear how it goes. If you end up trying that, I think that it would be great. If you want to share, report back and see how it's going. And I definitely recommend getting body composition scans done, like now at this point when you're starting and then checking back. Because oftentimes what happens with a lot of the people that I've worked with or hear from, their weight usually stays the same, or it goes up a little on the scale, but it's because they're burning fat and they are either retaining more muscle or gaining some muscle. So, like with your wife's story, I'm betting that six pounds is, like, all fat, and that's a huge amount of just pure body fat to lose, a fat mass to lose, and probably cut down her body fat percentage by a lot. And it's really motivating when you have a Dexa body scan, say, every six months. So, like, do it now. I would recommend doing one now. Just Google Dexa scan near me and do one in six months or in twelve months. And I think you'll be really happy with the progress that you see. Just to know also how much lean body mass you have is great. The scans usually tell you what your resting metabolic rate is, and then you can figure out how many calories to eat at maintenance. I just find it so motivating to get those done.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I agree.

Vanessa Spina:
All right, so our next question comes to us from Marissa, and she says, can you please address isolucine restriction as it relates to longevity? I understand that is a major factor for muscle protein synthesis, but there is also evidence that restriction is beneficial.

Scott Emmens:
So this is a great question. And I actually took the time to look up the study that was connected from Marissa. We could put that in the show notes. It was a study done in mouse, and I just want to take a moment to delineate between isolucine and leucine. Leucine. Isolucine and valine are considered your branch chain amino acids, and they're typically sold in a ratio of two. One. One meaning two of leucine, one of isolucine, one of valine. This study looked at restricting just isolucine, but not leucine, and not valine, just restricting the isolucine, which is not what is in tone and is not what we did. So when we created the leucine capsules, we deliberately did not go with a BCAA, we went with a leucine only capsule. So this study I found particularly interesting because it does suggest that by reducing the isolucine intake, but not the leucine or other amino acids, you have a lower glycemic index. And the mice, both their health span and longevity span increased. Now, I have not seen this data in humans, and I don't think we'll see it for quite some time, but the study in the mice was pretty compelling in terms of their blood sugar, their health span, their longevity and their overall seeming of performance by reducing the isolucine. So the beautiful part about what we're doing is it's just the leucine, right? The leucine capsule and the leucine only. Now, whey protein does have isolucine in it, but not nearly enough that, I think, is going to kind of bump this. Beyond this, I don't have any human data to suggest what that gram per day is. But even in the essential amino acid we created, we went again high on leucine, moderate to low on isolucine, and then actually higher on lysine and some other amino acids in the formula that we've created. So there does seem to be some science behind this, which means you may want to go with just the leucine caps and or the tone protein in leucine caps. And check out our ea blend when that comes out. And for me, though, the other thing I read, I read some additional studies that were linked to this study. It also showed that if you're exercising, particularly weight resistance exercising, that all of these isolucine issues were basically null and void. Right. So as long as you're doing not significant, moderate amounts of both cardio, but in particular weight resistance training, that the isolucine didn't seem to have nearly the impact it did in a non active mouse or non active person. So the studies that I'm referring to were in humans that showed. No, actually, I'm sorry, they were in mice that showed that if the mice were doing active physical workouts, difficult workouts, the isolucine had no impact on their overall longevity or health.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I always go back to the fact that you could add on a few years, maybe live a little bit longer, if your ultimate goal is just to live the longest. But what do you want your quality of life to be at that point? For me, I want to be strong and healthy and vital and energized, and I don't want to just be living as long as possible, but frail. So when it comes to restricting certain amino acids, restricting protein, turning off mtor, which, switching off mtor, which a lot of people are doing with things like rapamycin, I don't know if it's the best idea. If you want to be strong and you want to be running around and enjoying your life as much as possible, I'm okay with not living an extra two years and being frail and unable to do anything. We've all seen family members in that situation, and I don't think it's a really high quality of life. So I'd rather have a higher quality of life and maybe live a year or two less than I possibly could by restricting myself. Like I could fast every day and maybe add on some more time. But what's the point if I have no real muscle mass left and I can't get myself up from the floor or a chair or anything like that, you really want to think about, I think, your quality of life. So there's definitely a lot of research showing that protein restriction, amino acid restriction, mtor suppression can add more years to the lives of rodents. But what is the quality of those years? What's the health span? So I think it's a trade off. I do personally do extended fast a few times a year for autophagy, and there's definitely suppression of mtor that happens then, but it's so tiny, minuscule even compared to my everyday life, where I'm optimizing for optimal protein intake, for taking in all the amino acids to help me stay strong and just go after all my dreams and live the life that I want to. And ultimately, that's what it comes down to for me, is that there are trade offs, and you have to choose which ones you want to optimize for.

Scott Emmens:
It's kind of paradoxical, because every single bit of data we have supports that. Lower leg strength, grip strength, lean muscle mass. All of those are in the top five predictors of both health and lifespan as we age. So it's paradoxical to me that this lower protein concept and this low, eat low calories and you'll live longer. But yet, to your point, you might be living a very frail life and if you do happen to have a slip or a fall and you break a hip because you don't have any muscle mass, you're toast. But you can look this up on Google. You can find dozens and dozens of studies on grip strength, leg strength, lean muscle mass, overall body, always, always in the know five things that are going to predict your longevity and your health span. So it's just a weird paradox to me that this low protein concept or low caloric intake concept over lengthy periods of time works. And there was a monkey study done in, like the, forget it was chimpanzees or what type of primate it was, or monkey, but the monkeys that lived longer were basically kind of miserable and gray, and they didn't look good and they weren't happy. It wasn't a great life. They might have lived six months longer. But to your point, Vanessa, not a great life. So I'm with you on both. Have a healthier health span and maybe give up a year or two. But I'm not sure that that data is going to pan out in the long run because I just see too much data to support muscle strength. Lean muscle mass is critical for longevity and health span.

Vanessa Spina:
Not surprised that we're on the same page about this. And, yeah, I think it's a great question. I think it's definitely something to definitely keep in mind and consider. And the research on life extension and caloric restriction for that is pretty compelling. But again, how do you want the quality of those years to be? And like you said in that those primates sounded like they were not too happy just existing like that.

Scott Emmens:
But as this particular question relates, it was specific to isolucine. So to me, I don't have much of an issue reducing isolucine. I'm going to do a little more digging into it, because if I'm getting my leucine and then just enough isolucine to keep my total protein complete, I wouldn't be opposed to that. Because, again, I think leucine is your main player. As long as you have enough isolucine and complete protein, I think you're fine. So I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, because by limiting that one amino acid, if it does help, great. I think we're on the same page with just generally more protein. Keeping your muscle mass is the best option.

Vanessa Spina:
Absolutely. All right, so our next question comes to us from Stephanie, and she says, what are your thoughts on taking mineral supplements? Specifically, I've been hearing oodles of information on folvic and humic acids. Just wondering, geez, there are so many supplements out there, it's really hard to know what to take and if we even need minerals.

Scott Emmens:
So, yes, we absolutely need minerals. Minerals, I think, get a bad rap in terms of, because they're sort of kind of thought of as basic. People don't recognize all the different minerals and how important they are. Fulvic acid and humic acid are great ways to get small amounts of trace minerals and modest amounts of some of your larger minerals. Get about 70 to 75 in a fulvic acid. Between 80 and 85 in a humic acid. They're very closely related. You do have to source it properly because they're generally kind of dug up from salts and dirt. I shouldn't say dirt, but basically out of the earth. Right. And so you want to make sure you're getting a high quality source that's not contaminated and it's tested. But those are really good ways to get a lot of nutrients and minerals that you wouldn't otherwise get. Another great way to do it is a multivitamin that has all of your main minerals and your trace minerals. And just to emphasize how important minerals are. So we've all heard about magnesium, right? They're saying now upwards of 600 different enzymatic processes are conducted by magnesium. That is a remarkable amount. You can't make your neurotransmitters properly without magnesium. Zinc is also required for dna, for wound healing. Copper is required for collagen synthesis, wound healing. Let's see. You've got boron that helps with your bone structure. That also helps with some brain function. And fertility. And testosterone in men. Fertility for women. And testosterone and fertility for men. But definitely it's a factor in strong bones. You've also got selenium, which is very important for your immune system. So are minerals important and do we need them? Absolutely. And I think we probably have more of a mineral deficiency in this country than we could possibly imagine. Way beyond just magnesium. We know we're monocropping and our soils are really deplete of minerals. I take a multimineral every day, plus a trace mineral. And I often will seek out products that have a little folvic acid or humic acid in it. Although it's not been my go to because I try to look at a simple way to get multivitamins or multiminerals in like a multivitamin, for example, makes it simple. Or I bought a few products that I'm looking to create that have all the minerals I want in them, along with some trace minerals. So yes, minerals are exceedingly important on their own, right? But then they also act as cofactors for all kinds of things. Protein synthesis, muscle recovery, as electrolytes, which is very important for your heart rate and your brain function and your neurotransmitters. I could go on and on, but yes, they're very important. And I think a wide spectrum general multi mineral will get the job done for the average person. And if you want to go with sulvic humic acid, I think that's a great way to start.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of that. Now, we have one last question on today's episode from Lori on Facebook, if you'd like to read it.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely, Lori, thanks for the question. I'd love ideas on how to firm up my skin after weight loss. After the age of 50, I wish I could afford a juve, but are there any more affordable options? Well, absolutely there are. So the first one I'll mention is our wonderful host. Vanessa has multiple red lights now, and I think others in development, and she's got really high quality panels. It matters what the power of those are, it matters what the depth is, and it matters what the nanometers are of those lights. And Vanessa's done all of that research to give you a really affordable, great quality, long lasting product. So I would highly recommend that there are other products you can use for different applications. I do also, beyond Vanessa's panel, also use some pads for my daughter. For example, she runs division one track, so sometimes she'll get like a cramp on her lower back. And I just bought her like this high powered sort of belt that goes around her back so she can get that, or it wraps around her hamstrings if she's having some hamstring issues. And that's really because I know my daughter's not going to take the time to put the panel on. And if I can just strap it on her and let her walk around with it, she's going to use it. So it really depends on what your use is. But there are a lot of other brands. But I would start with Vanessa's because I know she's done the research and I know it works. I wish I could afford a Juve, too, but I don't think it's any better than the products you can get for much less money. I think the big advantage is it's a giant full body board. They're a great company, but I don't think I could afford $1,500 mat. So I'll pass on that. She also said other ideas, so I don't know if you have other ideas on firming up skin, maybe hyaluronic acid or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. So a couple of things. Thank you so much for mentioning the tone Lux line of red light therapy panels. I created them with love, and we definitely love Juve on this podcast. They've been a sponsor for years, and they have amazing full body panels. You also have a lot of alternatives out there. You can check out the tomlex line that I created as well. And there's a lot you can do with a half body panel. You can pretty much target your whole body with a half body panel without needing to have a full body panel. But I have a couple of things that I love. So I think the number one thing that I wish I had learned when I was younger, well, there's two. The first is exfoliation that I actually have been doing for a long time. So once or twice a week, I use a scrub on my face, because one of the main ways to keep your skin looking youthful is to get rid of the old skin cells. So if you use a scrub on your face, there's some great ones out there. You will help your body in clearing out those dead skin cells and help that cellular renewal on your skin. So that one I do and have been doing for a long time, the one that I wish I knew about earlier was serums, because I always thought that moisturizer was what you needed. But actually moisturizer helps you keep and lock moisture in. But what's really helpful is using serums. So vitamin C serums, retinoid serums, serums with retinol in them if you're not pregnant. Of course, I haven't been using the retinol ones, but I'm looking forward to using them again as I get back into my routines. And they can be really powerful, really helpful. I interviewed this amazing plastic surgeon, Dr. Anthony Yoon, and he really was explaining this to me about the power of retinoids and just vitamin C serum. So after cleansing the skin in the morning and night, using some toner if possible, he says it's not necessarily necessary, but definitely using a serum and that really helps, that actually improves your skin, whereas putting a moisturizer, which you do after that is more for comfort. And I think a lot of people have that twisted, like I did for so long. I thought, well, moisturizer makes your skin more moist and more hydrated, but it doesn't. It just locks it in. So it's a good idea to use moisturizer on your body and skin after you shower. When you have a lot of moisture there, you can lock that in. But in terms of actually having beneficial effects, the serums are really important. And the last thing that I do is I mentioned I do a couple of extended fast throughout the year. I find that that is amazing for autophagy. And my skin always feels and looks incredible. And the autophagy really is clearing out those dead skin cells, not only inside our bodies, but also on the skin surface. And so making sure that you have no contraindications for that, if that's something you're interested in, you can definitely get a lot of benefits. You have to be careful. Talk to your care provider, make sure if you're on medication, especially because your levels of medication can change a lot if you're doing an extended fast. But once a year, a 36 hours, two, three day, up to four or five days can do amazing things for not just the whole body. We were talking about how so many of the biohacks that we do today, it's really just to get back to homeostasis, to get out of our own way. And once in a while, I do like those for the skin. I think it can be beneficial, but you really don't want to overdo it. You don't want to go into too much proteolysis and break down your muscle and lose your hard earned muscle. And if you're in a situation where you don't have that much lean body mass or your low body weight, it's probably not the best idea either. So those are just a few things, and I think that they can be really beneficial. And of course, the red light therapy I'm obsessed with. And it's why I recently launched the Telnex crystal red light therapy mask, because it is amazing. There are so many powerful benefits to these different wavelengths of light, especially in the red, near infrared and orange spectrum of the sun. But you can get that therapeutically without the harmful rays that come from the sun. That can actually create sunspots or exposure. And I'm all about getting good amount of sun exposure, but not overdoing it. It's so great for vitamin D and forgetting all those wavelengths. But you have to also, if you overdo it, you can end up with sunspots like I did. I have a couple, and I'm using the crystal mask to help with that. And I'm noticing some big improvements. And I've gotten so much feedback from people who've purchased the tone Lux Sapphire panel who've purchased some of the other panels that their dermatologists are saying, wow, I'm seeing major improvements. So that's like the best validation for me, that the panels are powerful and effective, and it just makes me so happy when I get feedback like that. So thanks again for mentioning those, and thanks again for the wonderful question. We had so many fantastic questions between these two episodes. I so appreciate you being here, Scott, taking the time to answer and opine and share your expertise and knowledge with the guests. So thank you so much for being here and for joining us today. Where can everyone connect with you and follow you online and maybe even connect with you if they have a question?

Scott Emmens:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I always learn a ton. Like I said, I really enjoy getting these questions. They're always really well thought out and very specific, and it really helps keep me informed, and it's my pleasure to help people help themselves. So thank you for having me. If you'd like to reach out to me directly, you can do so on Instagram @longevityprotocol. I also have an account called collagen guru, but I don't check that one that often. But longevity protocol is my main Instagram handle. You can also reach me through our website, mdlogic health. That's www.mdlogichealth.com. If you just go to the contact us and know. I'd like to speak to Scott Emmons about such and such. I don't necessarily take questions just in general, but if you have a specific reason that you're reaching out about a product or something that you'd like to partner with us on, you can reach me there. Or my Dm on Instagram are the two best ways to do that.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Well, thanks again, Scott, for being here. I really, truly appreciate it and I had such a wonderful time and appreciate all the brilliant questions that we received. So thank you to all of you. Now you can catch up with me and follow me on Instagram at Ketogenic Girl. And you can also check out the Optimal Protein podcast, and you can check out the tone device, the tone luxe red light therapy line that I created@ketogenicgirl.com, and we will link everything in the show notes for you all, as usual. So sending you all so much love. Thanks for being here, and we'll catch you guys on the next one.

Scott Emmens:
Much appreciated. Take care. Bye. Vanessa, thank you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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LINKS

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Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Welcome to Episode 358 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
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Listener Q&A: Nancy - Coffee's impact on the gut microbiome

Listener Q&A: Teresa - What are the rules around drinking coffee when you have adrenal issues?

Listener Q&A: Teresa - How do you find the best coffee?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 358 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Hi, friends, you are in for such a special treat with today's episode. It is an in -person episode that I did with the incredible Dave Asprey at his house in Austin. If you want to see what that actually looked like, I will be posting video clips on my Instagram, so definitely check that out. I feel like he needs no introduction. Does he need an introduction? I don't know. Dave is basically the grandfather of biohacking. He's a multiple New York Times bestseller. He has books like The Bulletproof Diet, Headstrong, Fast This Way, which is all about fasting and Smarter Not Harder. And he's just a pretty awesome human being that I am so grateful to call my friend. And we tackled all of your questions about coffee because, oh my goodness, do we get a lot of coffee questions on this show? And who better to ask than Dave? And I think I talked about this in the show, but basically the only coffee I was drinking for years was Dave's Bulletproof Coffee because I really, really trusted him for quality and for it to be free of mold. Some drama went down. Dave is no longer with Bulletproof or at least is not right now. But that's all good because he made something even better, which is Danger Coffee, which I am obsessed with. It's mold free, free of toxins, and it is re -mineralized with ultra trace minerals. Plus it tastes delicious. Friends, I gifted Danger Coffee to so many people over Christmas. It's one of my favorite things. I cannot recommend it enough. You can get 10% off with the coupon code MelanieAvalon at MelanieAvalon.com/DangerCoffee. Make this your go -to coffee. It's my go -to coffee. Join the club. You will love it. I promise. And friends, if you would like to hang out with Dave and me, you can. I will be at Dave's 10th annual biohacking conference in Dallas this year. I went last year to the one in Orlando and it was such a blast. Friends, please come hang out with me. You can get 35% off your tickets with the coupon code BCMelanie. So for that, just go to melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference. Use the coupon code BCMelanie to get 35% off your tickets. Definitely snag those before they sell out. Also, if you go and you see me, please, please come up and say hi. People did that last year and it was so fun. I would love to talk to you. Love to meet you. So definitely don't be a stranger. Be my friend because we are friends. Again, melanieavalon.com/biohackingconference with the coupon code BCMelanie for 35% off your tickets. There will be links to all of this as well as a full transcript in the show notes. Those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode358. All right, without further ado, please enjoy this fabulous conversation with my dear friend Dave Asprey. Hi, friends. Welcome back to the show. So I am so excited to be here today with a legend in the biohacking and the fasting world. Dave Asprey, a man who barely needs any introduction and the topic of today's episode. So on this show, we get so many questions about coffee and my personal background with coffee. I started drinking about a decade ago something called Bulletproof Coffee. Heard of that. And that was because I was following Dave's work in the biohacking world and I was super concerned with things about mold and toxins. And at that part in time in my life, I was experiencing health issues. So I was like really kind of it was a fear mindset. I was scared of everything in any case. Which we evolved from that. Yeah, a little bit. But I was drinking Bulletproof because I honestly truly trusted Dave based on everything I heard about his concerns with his own mold issues. All the things. So I've been drinking Bulletproof Coffee. Well, I was drinking Bulletproof Coffee for about a decade. And then stuff happened, drama happened, and Dave is no longer with Bulletproof Coffee at the moment.

Yeah, I'm no longer working with Bulletproof for a variety of reasons.

Davis no longer working with Bulletproof for a variety of reasons, in his own words, which actually turned out to be to the benefit of everybody because he created something even better, which is Danger Coffee and friends, I've been talking about Danger Coffee a lot because it's amazing. I like the taste way better than Bulletproof and it has something even better in that it is remineralized. In any case, I recommend it to anybody and everybody and I just knew we had to have an episode with Dave on all things coffee. So Dave, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, and I just want to make it super clear, Bulletproof is my baby, and it's a company that I founded. And when I was running it, Forbes named Bulletproof one of the top 20 most innovative brands in the country, which is unheard of for a company that size and all that. It's nice to be able to go back to my roots and be able to do new innovation, because the things I'm doing at Danger Coffee are things that have never been done in the coffee industry. I definitely made some waves the first time I'm talking about mold, and it made a lot of big coffee brands very angry. And I mean, some of the early comments were almost funny. I'm like, guys, this is back by science.

I'm going off -script now, I have questions, but I just have to ask, so what are you doing that is innovative with Danger Coffee?

Well, Danger Coffee, Older Clean, our mold testing abilities have evolved from 10 years ago. And so I mold test the coffee, and it says right on the bag, lab tested, mold free, that sort of a thing. If you look at some other brands that are out there that used to say mold free, they might not. And so you should be very careful on the label. If it says clean, what does it mean? It's nice to know. And the other thing that I'm doing is I'm an appatent, let's say we filed a patent for it, for remineralizing the coffee. And we're adding ionic and trace and ultra trace minerals in relatively high doses to the coffee so that you don't need to take mineral supplements that have the same things in them because they're in your coffee and the heat activates it. So you can't taste the mineral, but it makes the coffee hit different because of electrolyte presence. So when there's electrolytes in the coffee, you don't taste them, but the coffee, but it goes, wow, this coffee's really good. And for some reason you just want more. And you want more, not because you're craving caffeine, but you want more because your body says, I've been lacking minerals. I chose these minerals because it is the whole food plant -based diet that is stripping minerals from people's bones. And I thought maybe you should put it back in. I can't say that just Danger Coffee does this, but I drink Danger Coffee every day. And I take mineral supplements like the Minerals 101 stuff that I make and I eat my diet and lots of red meat and all that. But I had surgery on a bone. They cut the bone in my foot in half last year. And I was awake for it. And the surgeon, I did an episode on the show about this. The surgeon has the bone saw it's going, and it slows down in the bone. And he says, there's some, having a hard time getting through this guy's foot. Like, is he even human? And we actually have that on video. So I, after I said, David, what is going on here? I'll put it on someone half your age and their bones cut like butter. Like, why are your bones so dense? Like, what is it? Upgrade labs? I think it's the minerals actually that's driving bone density. And if you're eating almonds and kale and spinach and beets and whole grain, whatever stuff and beans, all of those things are pulling minerals out of your body and you get weak bones.

So with all of that context, it's providing minerals, it's providing nutrients. The question from me and from Lizzie, is it a food? Coffee.

I believe coffee is a superfood. The reason for that is coffee, and we'll say danger coffee, but all coffee, if you brew it with a metal filter instead of a paper filter, it has a very meaningful amount of soluble prebiotic fiber in it. It has more polyphenols than kale and spinach and even raspberries, even though they're different polyphenols. It's the number one source of these colored compounds from plants in our diet that are responsible inside your brain, inside your cells for making something called melanin. And we know melanin from suntans and dark skin, but melanin inside your eyes, inside your nervous system, acts electrically within the cells. And melanin is just cross -linked melanoids. Coffee is full of melanoids. They're basically polyphenols. So there you go. You're drinking coffee because it changes your gut bacteria and it extends and multiple studies, all kinds of coffee seem to be correlated with dying less of all causes. So why would you not consider that a superfood?

Well, Nancy actually wanted to know its impact on the gut microbiome, so I'm assuming that's a good impact that you just mentioned. It's a good impact.

Okay. If you look at the various studies and invite you to go out and look them up, just don't go to Google because Google can't do any health stuff anymore. It's like a censorship wasteland. Go to any other search engine and you'll find good information on just microbiome coffee. And it's pretty profound with a little bit of soluble fiber every day that you drink in the morning can do.

We're gonna get a lot of questions about, does that fiber then break your fast?

No, it turns out when I wrote Fast This Way, I also wrote about something else that doesn't break a fast, that really helps. The goal of fasting is not to suffer unless you're into that. The goal of fasting is to get the metabolic benefits of fasting. There is a kind of spiritual fast where you're going really deep and maybe sitting with discomfort as it, but if you got to get shit done today, maybe have some soluble fiber during your fast that doesn't raise mTOR, doesn't raise insulin, but feeds the bacteria in your gut so that they make short chain fatty acids that increase your ability to have ketosis. Well, that's why one of the things you can put in your water or coffee during a fast so you're not hungry and you can be focused and still get the fast would be soluble fiber. So no, it doesn't break a fast. The people who keep saying, if it has calories, it breaks a fast, they do not know science. Straight up, no science there.

We get a lot of questions about adrenal issues. So, Teresa wants to know, what are the rules around drinking coffee when you have adrenal issues? Does drinking coffee when fasted burn out your adrenals as she's heard some functional nutritionists' claim?

I've had stage four adrenal fatigue twice in my life. My body doesn't make enough cortisol, naturally. It's a genetic thing, never have. So I've been really, really burned out of dreamly. The first time I read one of the first books on this, Wilson's book on adrenal fatigue, I went a year and a half without coffee, slowly crawling out. The second time when I knew some of the tenants of longevity and biohacking, took me about six weeks to recover. And I drink coffee every day. Here's the deal, suffering doesn't make you stronger unless it's small doses that you chose. So if you have adrenal fatigue, you cannot function in the world and you hate your life and you need to go to work like I did and you can't get out of bed, but you have to anyway and you whip yourself into it, it sucks. And I feel you if you're there. So when should your cortisol rise? Do you know that's the answer?

Good morning.

Would a cup of coffee, a single cup of coffee for someone with adrenal fatigue help them raise their cortisol in the morning when they need to? Yeah, it does. And it gives you your life back. And you better drink it with a glassful of salt water. Sea salt or salt from a mine, preferably North America without explosives, yada yada. You do that because you need the electrolytes in the blood volume. And should you take it with adrenal cortex? Yes. Should you take it with licorice root? Yes. Do I do all that stuff? Yeah, I do. But to say I'm a purist, so I'm not going to drink coffee because someone says it might quote burn out my adrenals, not understanding even what that means. If you're worried about your adrenals, take an adaptogen, take adrenal cortex extract. In fact, those are longevity substances that I highly recommend, especially when you're traveling, when you're jet lagged, when you over train, when you're getting sick, because then you won't get sick. But to blame coffee for what lifestyle does, given all the studies, hundreds of studies showing all the metabolic and health and even resistance to major diseases like Alzheimer's that comes from coffee, like, oh, focus on adrenals. It doesn't matter how you feel. Just feel like shit, don't drink coffee for a while and maybe then you'll be better. I just feel like you might be paying that functional medicine doctor for a lot longer if you don't have coffee.

I cut out coffee and wine for a year.

I would agree on cutting out wine, that's so spad player.

No, no, no, no. I could have coffee and wine for a year, and then I realized I'm never gonna do that again. Like I'm happier. I'm happier with them in my life than without.

So I don't like to say this. I don't think wine is good for you. Really? But I think that if you drink wine that's older than you, it's good for you.

because it has more.

Just because you can't drink very much, it would be broke. Oh. So I self limit my wine to really, really expensive wine. In other words, I don't drink wine often. You don't? Really?

You don't think there's a hermetic benefit to alcohol?

There's data that says up to maybe half a shot of alcohol in some people can have a hormetic response on some things but not others. It's probably not good for breast cancer, particularly that's one where any amount seems to be not good for you. There are some conditions where a small amount is good for you but not one shot and not one shot every day. And if you monitor your sleep levels and you have a half a shot, even that will likely affect your sleep in a negative way.

My aura ring says I do fine with my wine.

How much do you have?

Like a glass. Every night. Of drag from wines.

So you're saying something cool. Dry farm wine is actually launched on my show. If I'm gonna drink wine that's not older than me, it would be dry farms because dry farms, like the standards I used to have when I was running Bulletproof, it's like, look, let's test for mold, let's test for additives. So if you're drinking wine, it needs to be European for sure because most American wines, and I know some people who run vineyards here that are really good, just most American wines have glyphosate because it's in our groundwater and that can be in your wine. And if they say no additives, you probably are really, really good there, but there's 2 ,000 additives that can be in American wine. So again, should you eat wheat? No, if you're gonna eat wheat, should you eat Italian wheat or American wheat? Don't touch American wheat, eat Italian wheat. So I would say dry farms, the cleanest wine, and I've been friends with them for years, they sponsor my events. If you're gonna drink it, that's what you do. I even tested a half a shot worth of alcohol, or whatever that would be, a half a glass of wine. For me anyway, it creates inflammation, maybe histamine or mast cells or something. Not all bottles do it. Dry farms is the cleanest, but I know I'm gonna feel less good the next day. I did 30 days of doing one glass a night just to test it out of either sake or dry farms wine or something else like vodka. And at the end of that time, just look at the brain, look at Dana Amos research on it. So I think you should save alcohol for special occasions, like once a week max and have at most two glasses when you're gonna do that, and take glutathione, take the Z -biotics and things like that. But sorry, it's not super healthy, but you can get away with it, but protect yourself. It's the acetaldehyde in the gut really is aging. So it's one of those things I want it to be good for me. I've tried, I just haven't figured out how.

Dr. Aiman on my show as well and I know that he's what you just said not a fan.

Well, on his board of directors, his work changed my life really helped to lead to biohacking the movement. So I would just say, does brain science support coffee? Yes. Does it support alcohol? Probably not.

Why do you think the mind diet includes a glass of wine as part of to drink, not optional? It's part of the diet and that's the official diet for preventing Alzheimer's.

than might and who published that?

It's like the mind diet.

Is that from the Alzheimer's Association?

I have to fact check, but it's like the diet associated with.

So like if you go to the American Diet... It would be the thing record...

or commented by...

Alzheimer's. Sorry guys. Go to the American Dietetic Association. They're the ones who do like school lunches and hospital meals that cause diabetes. Literally, their recommendations cause the problem. The American Heart Association, their diet with omega -6s, all their weird nonsense high carbs causes heart disease. You mentioned Nina Takelts in another interview. There was a time when I was considering a class action lawsuit about certain claims against the AHA. And then the next day I spoke to an executive from the AHA and it turns out they'd already changed their mind and I just didn't know it. I was like, thank you. They've shown they can evolve. I still think a lot of the recommendations are wrong, but there is moving in the right direction. So, bottom line, sorry. You better show some evidence. If you wanna know who to go to for Alzheimer's, it's Daniel Amon and Dale Bredesen, both of whom are friends who've been on my show. I hope Dale launches book. Those are the guys who know.

Well, if you do drink, drink, drink from wines. I agree with you 100%. Bring it into events like I do.

You know, I bring it, same thing, in my events. You sneak it in if you have to. You will see dry farm wine at my events, and I've, because people are gonna drink, I totally support you, you're right, and ability to drink, just drink this up without toxins in it. And, am I, can I ethically say that drinking a glass a night is in science good for you? No, can I say half a glass a night? If you don't have any other sensitivities, might be good for you, if there's no toxins, probably. So, there you go.

Well, we can circle back to that, but I will say that at your biohacking conference most recently, it was Dry Bar Wine. I always had Dry Bar Wine, it's good wine. It was so good, I contacted them, and I was like, I love the one that they had, and then they sent me a case of what you had at, it was a Pino. No, it was really good.

They're good people and they really do test their wine. So I was like, someone had to fix wine and they did it. Yeah. That's how they're still in three glasses. This is good for you. Sorry.

Well, so back to coffee, April, if you drink high quality coffee like Danger Coffee, should you drink it daily or should you consider cycling?

Well, if you have a compound that makes you feel good every day, that seems to, in multiple studies, reduce, at least it's associated with a reduction in all cause mortality, and the benefits increase up to either three cups a day or up to five cups a day, depending on which study you believe in, why would you not drink it some days? Is this like self -loathing or like what, what would the motivation be? Maybe a desire to die more quickly? I'm just confused. Here's what it is.

people have the questions that you've been talking about through this episode of not knowing if maybe it's better a different way.

Yeah, I don't, I can't see any reason to do that. People are like, but it's addictive. I'm like, look, if you have something to do every day, and you feel good when you do it, and if you don't do it for a day or two, you start feeling worse, then it's an addiction. They go, yeah, I'm talking about exercise. So food's addictive too. So it's breathing, like things that make you feel good and perform better and feel better, the great preponderance of evidence is that coffee is good for us. I mean, there's thousands and thousands of studies out there, and it's a bit more edgy for something like nicotine. We had a question about that. Like nicotine smoking, we know that's bad for you, but we know smokers don't get Parkinson's and Alzheimer's because it's protective. So can you use nicotine apart from smoking as a cognitive enhancer on a longevity substance? I've written about that, took a lot of heat for it, but the science is real, but it's more nuanced. With coffee, it's not very nuanced. There's really good evidence that says coffee's good for you, and there's also evidence that says moldy coffee is not as good for you. I even published a study on it myself, but I have 36 studies that back it up that I didn't pay for or publish from around the world. So coffee's a thing, clean coffee's a bigger thing. Wine's a thing, clean wine's a bigger thing.

I think you can make the same argument with wine with all the studies, possibly.

You could, although they study vodka as well, which is basically the alcohol and wine without all the toxins.

to use nicotine every day.

Not every day. I go through phases. I've gone through phases. I'm like, I really like nicotine. It is one of my favorite cognitive enhancers. Like if you want to write a really, really nice, like 10 ,000 words in a night, which is what I do when I go into the flow state for writing. I'm like, a little bit, I do decaf danger and I'll put a little MCT and butter in it and I'll turn the lights to red and I'll take a spray or two of nicotine.

A spray, so you're doing.

I do one milligram spray. You can buy it anywhere in the US, anywhere in the world except for the US. It's just not approved here. That's the way it works. Or buy it on eBay, because people import it and then resell it. But you do it and then you just feel like your brain go, and then literally I can integrate 10 ,000 words a second right, and they're good words.

I'm a fan. I like the patches. But don't overdo it because you'll get sick.

Yeah, and too much nicotine is bad for your vascular system. You need like, it's a, that's a micro dose. So that's a tough one. But when it comes to coffee, three to five cups a day, depending on your caffeine processing ability in your liver, it's just good for you. Three to five cups? The studies show increasing, it can be decaf too. It's not the caffeine, it's the polyphenols. So three to five cups a day, even instant coffee works, which is the moldiest, worst coffee you could possibly get. Even that shows benefits that increase. And in one major set of data, it's up to three cups a day. And in the other older and bigger set of data, it's up to five cups a day. So I do about three cups in the morning of normal danger coffee. And if I'm really disciplined, I might do a decaf that night, but I don't always do decaf at night.

I will say if you don't have that much and then you need it so you have like a cup of coffee, you feel like you can conquer the world. Or if you do a copy in a month.

in that tweak you.

tweak me? Yeah. What does that mean? I try.

I'm like, it is so hot. Oh.

No, you just pour it down a little bit. That's fine.

Yeah, okay. But the caffeine hits me hard when I do... It does.

I did that and I was like, oh, this is what it means to feel alive. This is life right here. And then I started doing them every day and I was like, I got to stop this.

You can overdo them. And by the way, functional medicine, people love them. There's good stuff for the liver. There is a pretty good paper from some traditional colon doctor guy who went through a lot of research and including ER visits. And people do perforate their colons with coffee enemas and you can disrupt your microbiome. So it's like, go. Wait, the actual... Maybe they're putting too much in. I don't know. But they had a few case reports that were not really nice. So I would say be cautious and maybe every day might be too much. But doing that a couple times a week, depending on what you're detoxing and why, I think it could be a good thing. But I would just say, I hear mixed results, but in the functional medicine detox community, it's very popular and I think there's good evidence for it.

Well, to wrap it all up, I brought my enema bucket with me when I travel.

You bring a bucket? Do you check it separately? Like it's a big sticker. Get them a bucket. It's stainless steel. Like it let it rattle through the custom. No, it's not.

I don't like a whole colonic system. I do have one of those at home. But no, it's like the space. You just put in your suitcase.

Yeah, but why did you just use the toilet? What do you need a bucket?

A bucket if you want to do an enema.

Oh, to get it in.

Yeah, to do an NMI requires equipment.

But you're in a bucket, then I have like squeezy like... Oh, but like...

I don't like that.

Okay, got it. No, no. I'm less anime experienced than you. The way?

That relates last question to bring it all together. Teresa wants to know, how do you find the best coffee? And I know you've talked about this, so I kind of know your answer, but how do you find the best coffee when you are traveling? Is there something to look for that is less likely to be moldy or full of bad ingredients? Is a place like, this is a good question, is a place like Starbucks that serves high volume, likely to be fresher than a mom and pop?

the freshness of your coffee does not determine whether it has mold or not. The mold is forming during the growth of the coffee in small part and mostly during the fermentation of the coffee. And after the mold is grown, then they wash the coffee and they strip off the outer layers, but the parts per million of the toxins that matter are already in the beans. Studies show, and these are published on my website, you go to daveaspery.com and search for one ugly mug is the name of the post. I can always remember that. And when you look on there, you go, oh wait, are there studies that show that these toxins survive roasting the beans they do? Are there studies that show they're present in brewed coffee? Yes, there are studies. And the studies that don't find them are using the techniques where you actually can't find them because coffee can mask toxins in certain kinds of tests. So it's complex. So how do you find it? I'm at a coffee shop and I want good coffee. I know I might take a hit, but I'm willing to try. And this is one of the things that led me to start making mold -free coffee is I followed the algorithm. I'm in Denver. I'm going to give a big keynote about antivirus software. Very exciting, like my tech career. So I drive 40 minutes in a taxi to get clean coffee because I'm like, I'm dying here. I need it. And I go to the shop and I say I want single estate. This means coffee from one plantation. And Central America at that time had the best climate for less toxins in it. Just it depends on how much rain, how much drought, and things like that. And Guatemala, back when I started the company was a good source for it. And I've since found different sources for danger. But I said, okay, I'm going to try that coffee. I didn't know any of this other than single estate, Guatemala. And I get the coffee and I drink and it tastes really good. And I'm on my way to give my keynote direct from the coffee shop. And then the mold toxins hit me and I wouldn't even hit you. Guys, I lived in a toxic mold bedroom as a kid. I've had multiple damage on clinical scans that Daniel Aiman did. And I've done a documentary on toxic mold. People have been exposed to mold. If you're one of them, you know, I'm talking about you feel mold. And it feels like someone's shutting off your brain. It feels like your body is like jittery and anxious and cranky. And it's, it's hitting me. Somebody even get pain in your joints or in your back. And I'm like, I feel like I just took bad drugs. And I'm on the way to give a keynote. I have no idea what I said in the keynote. It probably didn't suck that bad. But it wasn't that happy of a day. And I'm just like, this is unacceptable. I spent 50 bucks on cab fare to get a frickin cup of coffee. And I got the most nice expensive, probably good. But that's how you do it. It's single estate, Central American washed coffee. It's like a 5050 throw you don't know. Right. And the reason I do danger coffee is it is lab tested. You're not 5050, you know, it's clean. And then the minerals that I use, they actually can clean mold because they bind to it. So there you go. You've got something you know what you're getting. I have traveled around the world carrying danger coffee. And I've gone to Starbucks in every continent that I've been to and said, Hey, can I have a vent a hot water, please? And I pour my ground danger coffee in, I stir it with a spoon. And eventually when it's brooded, drops to the bottom and I pour it into my flask and I'm good to go. I literally brew coffee every day I'm on the road. I travel at least 200 days a year, because I don't want to feel like crap. And I have tried gold metal award winning coffee, most amazing flavorful ever. And then you feel like garbage afterwards. And I don't like feeling like garbage. That's why I did danger coffee and the name danger coffee. It's because who knows what you might do. The idea that we're going to do something for your own safety. You can be like humbled and doled by people just trying to keep you safe. And I don't want to be around people like that. I want to be around people who are dangerous, because they're the people who start companies, they're the people who asked her out finally. They're the people who took a risk because it was worth it. They had a dream and they reached for the dream. So here's to having dangerous people in the world who choose to be peaceful, because that's what makes an amazing world. And people who are scared, so they're peaceful. They're not dangerous people. They're boring people. And they'll probably do evil. So be dangerous. And who knows what you might do. You might have fun.

I'll give you my endorsement. Like I said in the beginning, I really do. I love Danger Coffee. I have only heard good things from listeners who have bought it and reported back. People love it. It tastes amazing. And like I said, it's mold -free, and then it's one step better with all of the remilorization and everything. It replaces.

This is expensive supplements for minerals. If you have the amount of minerals that are in it, it is more expensive than regular coffee. But you're getting a therapeutic dose of minerals when you drink it at every time. And I feel different. And so it's also delicious. It's my latest and greatest.

Do you know how much I love it?

And you tell.

I gave it as a Christmas gift to my assistants, like a massive shipment of it.

Oh my gosh.

So that's how you know. Do you know? Because I'm a gift, like gift giving is my love language. So that, that's how you know.

Well, guess what I have for you? What? I was gonna give it to you after the show, but I don't know how, in the room with me. Have you heard of our new ceremonial grade, Danger Coffee?

I saw it on the website.

So there are levels of coffee that most people have never experienced because they're microlots that they may only have, you know, 1200 bags. And they're like the finest wine, but they're coffee. So finding a microlot that's clean that we can lab test and remineralize, we did it. And it's now a subscription thing where maybe once a quarter we're going to be doing this. And I have one of those for you. And it's amazing. Thank you. You're welcome.

Well, it's a good day. It's a good day. It's worth the trip. Yes.

And thanks for having me as your first ever live podcast guest. And thanks for coming to Austin. So I didn't have to come to Atlanta. That would be a lot of work.

No, thank you. And well, this has been so amazing. And like I said, I am really, really obsessed with Danger Coffee. It takes things to the next level, tastes amazing, mold -free, remineralized. So friends, go to melanieavalon.com/danger. Use the coupon code MelanieAvalon that will get you 10% off site -wide. I promise you, you will not regret it. It's one of my favorite things in my life. I cannot recommend it enough. melanieavalon.com/danger. Coupon code MelanieAvalon for 10% off. Thank you, by the way, for that discount. I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you. And thank you, Dave, for everything that you have done. You are truly changing the world. You talk the talk and walk the walk. You do the things. Why? Thank you very much. I like you're very genuine and I can say that everything that you say and endorse is just coming from a real place of honesty. And thank you.

You're very welcome. And keep supporting the Biohockey movement, keep talking about all the stuff you find that works, and every day, more people are joining.

Alright, talk to you later.

Thanks guys for tuning in.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 357 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

REEL PAPER: Reel paper makes soft, sustainable, eco-friendly, soft, perfume-free, dye-free, plastic-free toilet paper made of 100% bamboo, and they plant one tree for each role you buy! Reel paper is available in easy, hassle-free subscriptions or one-time purchases,  conveniently delivered to your door with free shipping in 100% recyclable, plastic-free packaging. Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz

Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

REEL PAPER: Get 30% OFF reelpaper.com with code IFPodcast, plus FREE shipping! (Works on subscriptions too!)

TONE PROTEIN: Get on the exclusive VIP list and receive the launch discount at toneprotein.com!

Listener Q&A: Nicole - How often should you vary your fasting window?

Listener Q&A: Candice - Peptides! What are they?

Listener Q&A: Niki - Red Light Devices

Listener Q&A: Lauri - If you could select your top 2-3 biohack items what would they be?

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 357 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
All right, well, hello everyone and welcome. I am your host today, Vanessa Spina, and I have a wonderful co -host joining us today, special guest, Scott Emmons. Many of you are probably familiar with him.

Vanessa Spina:
Scott is the COO of MDLogic Health. He is a biohacker and former bodybuilder, and he brings a wealth of knowledge and perspective. His previous experience as a biotech executive for over 20 years helped send him on his voyage to co -found MDLogic Health, a wellness company.

Vanessa Spina:
So welcome, Scott. It's great to have you back here on the Interim Ritten Fasting Podcast.

Scott Emmens:
My pleasure, Vanessa. It's always great to be at the IF podcast and I'm excited for our questions today. Thank you for having me.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I always appreciate when you can join and share a different perspective. And I think we have some wonderful, brilliant questions as always to get to. But how have you been doing?

Scott Emmens:
Life has been good. Right now, I am just wrapping up from Valentine's Day, which was fun with the wife. So that was good. I'm really thrilled. I think by the time folks are hearing this, we'll be well into our subscription model for Tone Protein.

Scott Emmens:
Got tremendous feedback initially during the pre -launch. And I would be remiss if I didn't just mention to folks, if you're listening to this now and you have not received either an automatic conversion to your 20% for life, if you bought during the pre -sale, if you did not sign up and receive an email or you're not automatically converted over, please reach out to MDLogic Customer Service.

Scott Emmens:
And Vanessa can put that email in the show notes. But at this point, the special is available. And you should be seeing that in your inbox. If you have not received that email from either MDLogic or Vanessa, again, please reach out to us at MDLogic and you will be rolled into that 20% for life program.

Scott Emmens:
So keep an eye out for that. Looking forward to that. I think the subscriptions run through the 1st of March, if I'm not mistaken, but more details will come via email. So just wanted to let that out there, but things are going great.

Scott Emmens:
We actually have two new Co -brands that are launching and MDLogic is working on a large new pipeline for plant proteins, some pre -workout drink, and specifically some skin, hair, and beauty products that we're pretty excited about.

Scott Emmens:
So lots of new developments happening in our world, and lots of things going on with my kids as always. So it's been an adventurous 2023 and we're off to a great start in 2024.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm so glad you brought up the launch of Tone Protein, which we launched together. It was so much fun and just so wonderful to see the support. I know a lot of members of this community and of the Optone Protein podcast community were really excited to finally have a super clean, super high quality whey protein isolate, the product that I wanted so badly to exist on the market, I had to go and create it myself.

Vanessa Spina:
And like you, I was making, you know, formulations in my kitchen. And now finally, I don't have to, I can just use, you know, Tone Protein and put a scoop in there. And now I'm actually doing two a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I was doing one protein shake for the longest time, but my fueling needs went up. My fueling needs were actually higher during pregnancy because they are higher, especially for protein, but they went up even more breastfeeding.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm now up to two protein shakes a day. And I love using Tone Protein. I love that it is so high quality. It's so clean. It's one of the cleanest protein powders on the market. And the fact that it's also enhanced with leucine, I love that you can just initiate muscle protein synthesis in every serving.

Vanessa Spina:
So that enhancement with the leucine really makes a difference to get four grams of leucine in every serving. And I'm just so thrilled with how the launch has gone. I'm so excited to make new flavors.

Vanessa Spina:
As you know, I've been begging you to make cookies and cream from the beginning.

Scott Emmens:
Cookies and Cream is, I know, first on the list.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, unflavored. I've been getting a lot of requests actually for unflavored and just for all the flavors. So I'm really excited to expand on that. And I'm also excited about the collagen you were just talking about was we're going to come out with.

Vanessa Spina:
We're going to be coming out with a collagen. And that's something that I've always been really interested in. But again, hit that same issue where I just wasn't happy with the products that were on the market.

Vanessa Spina:
So have to go and create my own. That's been the same thing with all the products. The tone device, the red light therapy, create the products that you want to see in the world that you selfishly want to use yourself but that you think other people may enjoy as well.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm excited about the collagen too.

Scott Emmens:
you know, with the whey protein unflavored, that's the first I'm hearing that you were getting lots of requests for that. So that actually is pretty simple to make, right? Because flavor is complex and it's got to have the right blends and certain things to make the flavor pop.

Scott Emmens:
So in a completely unflavored way, we'd probably not be able to put the leucine in that, but we do, we are launching leucine capsules. So the reason for that is if you do an unflavored whey with leucine, it can be relatively bitter.

Scott Emmens:
Leucine is a very bitter amino acid, which is why it took so long for us to get your formula just right with that perfect blend of flavors. But the unflavored, I think we can get that out pretty quickly.

Scott Emmens:
So we can work on that as we're working on cookies and cream in the background. And we have done extensive research. I don't know how much I've told you about this, Vanessa, but we've been researching about seven different collagen testing them, looking at the clinical data.

Scott Emmens:
So we have three bovine collagen we've narrowed it down to. And I don't think you want to do marine, but we've also been doing a deep dive into marine collagen, particularly testing them for mercury and heavy metals, because I know that's a big issue for folks.

Scott Emmens:
The other thing we've looked into is the molecular weight and the different kinds of patented peptides. So low molecular weight collagen seems to be really good for absorption and for gut health, whereas the higher molecular weight is better on taste, texture, and better for your skin tone.

Scott Emmens:
So we've done a deep dive on what the differences are in these collagen, what the peptides are, why one might be better than the other. And again, as we've mentioned many times, we've also looked extensively at the five nutrients that are called cofactors, which we initially added to our embryologic collagen.

Scott Emmens:
The issue is copper is a highly reactive molecule, but it's also essential along with zinc and vitamin C. Those three are really key cofactors, out which you just can't make collagen in your body. So you kind of don't really, you digest the collagen, but you're not really getting and creating collagen from it without those cofactors.

Scott Emmens:
So we're going to take that out of that, just make pure collagen and then have the collagen cofactors as these separate nutrients that has all of the five cofactors you need and all of the right ratios to maximize your collagen creation from the collagen you're taking.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm excited because when we launch the college and we can do some educational content around college. And I've been learning so much from you about those cofactors. And I think a lot of people don't know that about college.

Vanessa Spina:
And there's just in general, I think with everything from protein to college in, there is a lot of maybe misinformation out there or, you know, as we, we discovered one website that we were looking at that had some really interesting facts.

Vanessa Spina:
Quote unquote fact that were all completely made up. There's just a lot to learn about these things. And I've really enjoyed doing those educational podcasts that we did about how to select a high -quality whey protein.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm looking forward to doing one about how to select high -quality collagen, also how to supplement with it. Because there's even collagen being marketed as protein supplements, which is one of the worst offenders that I've seen.

Vanessa Spina:
Because people don't know and people are so trusting. I know I'm like that myself. I see something advertised in a certain way. I'm like, oh, so this must be a great protein. It looks like it's got a nice chocolate flavor or whatever.

Vanessa Spina:
And if you don't know, you will fall for that. And you realize that you're basically taking collagen and thinking that it's going to help you initiate muscle protein synthesis. One is the furthest thing from that because it's not even a complete protein.

Vanessa Spina:
So there's so much to learn about quality of protein, protein rankings in terms of their score, their bioavailability, and just to understand and help people wade through the marketing noise. Because there is so much noise and it's easy to be flashy and grab people's attention.

Vanessa Spina:
And then you really do have to put a little bit more work into it to understand some of these concepts. Because I used to be one of those people. I watched Netflix documentaries and I thought that being vegan was optimal.

Vanessa Spina:
I thought that there was enough protein in cucumbers when people would ask me about protein. I was like, cucumbers, there's in vegan propaganda and I saw it in marketing and believed it until I went back to school to study biochem.

Vanessa Spina:
And then I realized that I was being sold a lot of stuff that was really not accurate at all.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, we'll do a real deep dive on proteins and collagen as a protein specifically, the cofactors. That'll be a great episode. And I think that's what I love most is helping people way through all of the marketing pieces and for lack of a better word, the propaganda or just the company trying to push a narrative.

Scott Emmens:
So I really enjoy pulling the veil back on that and letting people understand exactly what you're getting. And I'm looking forward to that one.

Vanessa Spina:
What did it say they were telling people that if they had whey protein, was it that it was acidic, that there was something

Scott Emmens:
Basically, we say that all of the additional things beyond the essential amino acids were wasted in calories in terms of fat, which is completely

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that's what it was. And they had some charts that looked very scientific, but sometimes even when there's charts on there, it's not legit at all.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it looked very legit. But then when you went to the source, that actually didn't say anything like that. In fact, I don't think there even was a source. It was their own creation. Not to say that that product doesn't have some benefits, but the way that they couched it was like, oh yeah, if you take away your, it's bad.

Scott Emmens:
No, that was very, we'll call it inaccurate.

Vanessa Spina:
I get it because I hear from people constantly who have the same questions. And I'm like, where is this information coming from? And then you find out, wow, it's a company that's putting this out. And I'm not sure why they're doing that.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, it's great to be able to learn. I'm learning so much myself and have been learning so much myself over the years and also to be able to share. And I just love that you have so much experience, especially with supplementation.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I've been learning so much since we started working on tone protein. And it's been great. Well, speaking of learning, I'd love to jump into some questions. What do you think?

Scott Emmens:
Let's jump into some questions. I'm excited. All right.

Vanessa Spina:
So the first question comes to us from Nicole on Facebook if you'd like to start off with that one.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. So this question is from Nicole. Nicole, thank you for your question. And it is, how often should you vary your fasting window? Is it necessary to go longer than 18 hours to get the benefits?

Scott Emmens:
I'm super active and do two different forms of exercise in the morning and definitely need food after. I range from 14 to 18 hours typically. So Vanessa, what do you think?

Vanessa Spina:
So I love this question, Nicole. I think it definitely is a great idea to modify or vary your fasting window, but always go back to what are you optimizing for in the moment? What goals are you optimizing for?

Vanessa Spina:
Because I can switch up my goals three, four times a year, depending on what season it is or what it is that I'm currently optimizing for. And you may have a few goals when it comes to your health, but there's definitely one that's sort of the prime goal that that's the one you want to, you know, figure out how to optimize, you know, your fasting window, your protein intake, all these things.

Vanessa Spina:
So I would say that the main benefits that come from intermittent fasting are typically caloric restriction, which you, you know, you get sort of more effortlessly doing it in an intermittent fasting window.

Vanessa Spina:
You also get a lot of benefits on your metabolic health. You get digestive rest. So, you know, I think that you can still get a lot of those benefits. Even if you don't go longer than 18 hours, you know, I think then it's sort of a different category.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like, well, if you're trying to get a topology, I would put that in a different category where I would say, well, you want to do maybe a fast once a year, 36 to 72 hours, like a water fast or supervised fast, something like that, because that's going to really crank up the topology.

Vanessa Spina:
Or if your goal is topology, you want to make sure you're getting in that resistance training and exercise in and maybe doing fasted exercise. You get mitochondrial biogenesis. So it kind of just depends on what you're looking for.

Vanessa Spina:
I find most people come to intermittent fasting because they want to recompose their bodies, cut some fat, do it effortlessly. And also because they want to get some of the longevity and health spend benefits.

Vanessa Spina:
So I don't think you need to go to 18 hours or more. I think anywhere 14, you said you range between 14 and 18. Typically, you can definitely be able to do your fasted workout. It sounds like you do two different forms of exercise in the morning fasted.

Vanessa Spina:
And then you want to break your fast right after. And that's the best time to break your fast, especially if you're having, you know, a meal that has an optimal amount of protein in it. So you can help your body repair and restore itself.

Vanessa Spina:
And I definitely would not be pushing to try and get those, you know, higher numbers or to be pushing when you've just worked out fasted. And you feel that you need to refuel, to nourish your body and provide those building blocks to help your muscle repair and recover as well.

Vanessa Spina:
So I think that at the end of the day, you got to find the window that works the best for you, because that's going to be what's sustainable. A 68 is more than enough to get a lot of the benefits, the main benefits of intermittent fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
What do you think Scott?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I agree, especially I'd be curious to know the two different forms. I'm sort of thinking that it's an aerobic and maybe some weight training, but either way, if you're doing two different forms of exercise in the morning and you don't have a high protein meal and or a meal with either half a shake or full shake of protein, you're going to do a lot of, you know, catapultation of your muscle because your body is going to be starving.

Scott Emmens:
It's going to have just worked out in these two different forms, particularly if you're doing weight resistance training, your body is going to be, you know, really starving for those proteins and nutrients.

Scott Emmens:
And I think you said it really well. Like that's the perfect time to break your fast is immediately post some intense exercise, which I would say two different forms of exercise in the morning is. And I think going past 18 hours again, if your goal is to stay really physically fit, which obviously if you're working out every morning, two different forms, I would, I would assume that's the goal.

Scott Emmens:
I wouldn't go beyond the 18 hours. I think that's more than enough and sufficient. And I would definitely eat an hour or sooner after the exercise for sure. And of course, make sure it includes both a hydration and a good bit of high quality protein between 20 and 30 grams, whether that's, you know, eggs, which is a great source of protein, some sort of meat and, and or a high quality shake, I eat some, I think would be the way to go.

Vanessa Spina:
love the plug on tone. I can't find myself, I can't help but mentioning it all the time, because it's what I use every day. And I don't know a way protein that's, that's better. So I love to have a protein shake with tone protein right after working out other times, you know, if I'm not feeling that so much, then, you know, make a different kind of high protein meal.

Vanessa Spina:
I tend to recommend 30 to 35 grams of protein at each meal. And especially if you're doing intermittent fasting, you want to make sure that you're hitting your protein target in that shorter window. So I like to go a little bit more on, on the protein just to make sure that you get enough for muscle protein synthesis.

Vanessa Spina:
And especially if you are plant based, you know, you definitely more closer to 35 grams at a meal. But I know that wasn't specifically about your question. So let's move on to the next one. Thank you for the question, Nicole.

Vanessa Spina:
So Candice from Facebook says, peptides, what are they? Why are people using them? Do they work? And by work, I mean for improving health, weight loss, etc. I've seen them in powder form. And my dad is getting injections of several different formulas from a doctor's office that practices regenerative medicine.

Vanessa Spina:
Are injections better? Are there any studies? Also, thank you for the deep dive on semi -gluteid on the, I believe that was the December 4th podcast. That was absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much, Candice.

Vanessa Spina:
I love getting to do that deep dive. It was so much fun to talk about how semi -gluteid works in the body and the half -life and everything. So I'm really glad you enjoyed it. What do you think, Scott?

Scott Emmens:
So peptides are highly effective in both powder and injection forms, but they're kind of two different things and they're used for two different ways. I think peptides are going to continue to become more and more popular in both supplemental powdered forms, capsule forms, and injection forms.

Scott Emmens:
So you have pharmaceutical grade peptides like semi -gluteide, which is OZEPIC or bogovie. There's a number of those peptides in the market. There are other peptides for things like eczema and you'll see those advertised and those are either injectable or pharmaceutical grade peptides.

Scott Emmens:
Then there's this sort of gray area injectable peptides, which things like BP157, which you really should have a physician that understands what each of these new peptides are, that they have a really good source for those peptides.

Scott Emmens:
Because when you're injecting a peptide into your body, A, you want to make sure it's really pure and you really want to make sure it's a physician that's worked with peptides extensively, taking some training on them.

Scott Emmens:
There's a lot of evidence for a number of different peptides. The one that's probably most popular is the BP157, which is often used for generation of limbs or arthritic pain. They work really well. I've had a couple of those injections for some knee and shoulder issues.

Scott Emmens:
When I say a couple, I mean two, just because they're very expensive and they're very effective. They work really well. I'm a big fan of both the injectable and the oral. From an oral peptide, you'd be surprised at some of the things that are peptides that you hear every day.

Scott Emmens:
Creatine, for example, that's a peptide. A peptide is nothing more than a chain of amino acids that are linked together in a certain form. That form of amino acids tells your body to do something. It's like an instruction panel or the building block of something really important in your body.

Scott Emmens:
When it's already in that peptide form, it spares your body from having to take all of the amino acids and create it by itself, along with all the cofactors needed. It's almost a biohacking way to get these peptides that your body creates on their own in a powder form.

Scott Emmens:
Another peptide I love is carnicine. That peptide is an amino acid. I think it's two different amino acids. It works really well to help pull in electrolytes into your cells. It has some antioxidant properties for things like helping prevent issues with your eyes.

Scott Emmens:
It also is great for performance enhancement in terms of athletes. A lot of athletes will use carnicine as one of their peptides of choice. Then collagen, those collagen peptides, because what they've done is taken that native, fibular collagen, which is what creates your skin, your ligaments.

Scott Emmens:
They've broken that down into an amino acid, but not quite down to the amino acid level, but they've broken it down into peptides. That makes it much more digestible. That's why we talk about those cofactors, because those collagen peptides then have to be rebuilt into your body to create the collagen itself.

Scott Emmens:
That's what those cofactors come into. Creatine, carnicine, and collagen peptides are three peptides you hear about all the time. They're all very effective that I use all the time.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you for covering those. I actually am fascinated by peptides and I recently had a doctor who actually works with a lot of celebrities. He's out of New York, Dr. Neil Palvin, on the Opsaline Protein Podcast.

Vanessa Spina:
That's all we talked about for an hour. Every single peptide, all the injectables, what they're for, and it's amazing the different applications that they have because that really does seem to be where we are going and trending is towards personalized medicine with people having the ability to analyze their genetics, find out if they have these single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs or different mutations.

Vanessa Spina:
There's all these different kinds of mutations that people can have that turn out to really affect how the body really functions overall. It's really amazing that you can correct some of those things with these peptides, these injectables.

Vanessa Spina:
Obviously, the Wacovi, Osempic ones are getting a lot of attention. I think that is bringing just more attention in general to peptides and the fact that they're all these injectables. If you want to hear the A to Z on all those injectable peptides and all the different ones, you covered a lot of the key ones there.

Vanessa Spina:
Look out for that episode with Dr. Neil Palvin that's going to be coming out early in 2024. It could be up as the airing of this, but it'll be around this time. Thank you for covering all of that.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. So we've got another question here from Nikki on red light devices. Hi, Melanie and Vanessa. Vanessa, I just preordered your red light device and face mask. I'm so excited to try it. I am too, actually.

Scott Emmens:
I am also trying to use red light to encourage hair growth. Oh, we just talked about that. But it is difficult to target my scalp with the regular devices because it can't face your scalp and at the same time, it faces the rest of your body.

Scott Emmens:
Are you planning on making a helmet device for hair growth anytime soon? If not, are there any you would recommend? I know iris stores are popular, but I wouldn't purchase it without your silver approval.

Scott Emmens:
Thanks for all that you both do. Nikki, let me include the exo, Nikki.

Vanessa Spina:
Hi, Nikki. It's so nice to hear from you. I really love this question. And first of all, thank you so much for supporting my work and what I'm doing in creating wellness products. So I'm so excited that you pre -ordered the new Tonelux Crystal Red Light Therapy Mask.

Vanessa Spina:
And I really can't wait to hear what you think of it. I absolutely love it because I was finding that I like to do my red light therapy on my face in the morning. And I'm with Luca in the morning and lately, especially the last six months.

Vanessa Spina:
He needs me to be focused on him. Like he will grab my face, turn it towards him. Like I cannot look any other direction than him. But he doesn't mind when I put the mask on because we can still read books and do stickers and, you know, we can, you know, do activities together.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's not that long. I usually do a 15 minute session. I can do anywhere from 10, 15, 20, 25 minutes. And I've been noticing some differences with my sunspots already on my face. So I'm really excited for that and to see the differences.

Vanessa Spina:
And the thing with red light therapy is you really have to be consistent at the beginning. I would say, especially the first eight to 12 weeks. And I know you're going to be able to speak to this a little bit from your personal experience, Scott.

Vanessa Spina:
But after you get the results, you can do maybe one session a week or something like that. So you just have to be really consistent at the beginning and you'll get some amazing benefits. And then after that, you just maintain your benefits and your results after that.

Vanessa Spina:
So I'm super excited for you. You to try it. Now, when it comes to encouraging hair growth, this is one of the coolest things about red light therapy because when Russian scientists were first studying red light, they were doing tests on mice to see if lasers would be safe for humans.

Vanessa Spina:
So a lot of the times you look up research on red light, it's photo biomodulation. A lot of the research comes from these laser studies. And one of the first things they saw is that it was regrowing hair on the mice.

Vanessa Spina:
And that's when they started to go, Oh, maybe there's actually some benefits to lasers and red light and photo biomodulation, as opposed to being concerned about the safety of them. So I think hair growth is a huge potential area with the face.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, it's a collagen, a lasso and production, youthfulness, sunspots, you know, can make you look younger. And it can do also systemic benefits from the self remitocondria. But when it comes to hair growth, I think that that can be really, really helpful.

Vanessa Spina:
So my personal recommendation would not be to use the face mask on your scalp. I would use a panel. And the reason for that is the panels are much more powerful in terms of their power density and irradiance.

Vanessa Spina:
It's much stronger. The amount of jewels that you get in terms of the, you know, square centimeters or scranges is much higher with the panels. So I would, if I was doing this for myself, I'd put the panel on the side of the screen.

Vanessa Spina:
And I would put a panel, a powerful panel and prop it up on the floor. And then I would lay down in front of it so that the top of my head would be facing the panel. If that makes sense. So I would definitely do that.

Vanessa Spina:
So when it comes to the face masks and the helmets, the power density and irradiance is much lower than the panels because it's right on your skin. So for safety and, you know, just because you're getting exposure right close to your skin in general, they're not as powerful as the panels can be.

Vanessa Spina:
So I would do that. I also think it would be probably pretty comfortable to just lay on the floor and do your red light therapy. What's been your experience, Scott, because I know, I mean, you were showing me before we started recording your progress.

Vanessa Spina:
It's amazing to see. So I know you've been really doing it consistently and you've been doing some different things. So what would you recommend?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, so I have a whole protocol that I was following when I was like, so I'm 52, right? So when I was in my 40s, I was like, really, I got to keep this hair. And I was very diligent about it. This was just before red light.

Scott Emmens:
So it was more like Rogaine and a little bit of myconeedling biotin collagen. And that kind of kept the hair I had, but it really wasn't helping grow there. So then I discovered red light and I was using that for a long time.

Scott Emmens:
At first, I was doing about 15 minutes, probably five to six times a week. And I definitely saw a difference that was like around 45. Then I kind of said, eh, you know, the heck with it. And I let it go.

Scott Emmens:
And it just, my hair just wasn't like gone. I'm like, wait a second, I wasn't prepared for this. Over the last three months, I have really begun to use both a panel and a pad. And the pad is just because it's easier and simple.

Scott Emmens:
I don't always have the panel, but the way that I do my panel, I don't, not really much of a lay down kind of guy. So I put it on, I've got a big leg massage chair and I put your panel like on a really firm camera, a mounted, like a tripod mounted camera.

Scott Emmens:
And then I sit on the barcalauner. It's like a, not a barcalauner, but it's like a massage chair and it hovers just about an inch over my head. And then I'll just sit and watch a TV show or listen to a podcast or read a book.

Scott Emmens:
And the 15 minutes goes by super fast. But I also, I think for my age and for how kind of far my hair had gone, I needed to include some other things. So my routine consists of a micro needling in the morning, a light one, then an aggressive micro needling along with a blend of keratin and rogaine.

Scott Emmens:
So it's pure 100% keratin. I said keratin, keratin, which is what your hair is actually really made from. And then biotin, I take it because your hair stacks those little biotin amino acids on top of each other.

Scott Emmens:
So that's more for like the hair growth and length. The keratin is what the hair kind of is actually made out of. It's the primary ingredient in the hair. And then once the micro needling and the keratin are on, I will do the red light therapy for about 15 minutes while that's not a recommendation.

Scott Emmens:
This is my protocol. I also do take biotin and I take collagen along with cofactors. And the final thing I've added in recently, and again, I'm not recommending this, but it's just my protocol. Check with your doctor, make sure this is safe.

Scott Emmens:
But I put a couple of drops of 1% methylene blue on my head before the red light. There's a lot of data to suggest that methylene blue particularly ingested, which is not even, I don't need to think legal.

Scott Emmens:
So I'd never do that. But a topic I put it on along with those other things I do, then do the red light therapy, either the pad, which I'll use downstairs if I'm like watching TV downstairs or in my office where I have the panel set up.

Scott Emmens:
I'll do 15 minutes, probably three to five times a week, depending on how busy my week is. And I was literally just showing Vanessa, I'm like, Hey, I really think this protocol is working. What do you think?

Scott Emmens:
And I pulled my little headphones down and she's like, actually, I see a big difference from the first time we met. No, I don't have a lot of hair, but it is definitely gone from totally bald to like, you know, there's some actual hair there.

Scott Emmens:
So I'm feeling like another three months of this protocol is going to work great. And there is a plethora of evidence on red light, both for hair growth, eye support, skin tone, mitochondrial support.

Scott Emmens:
So look into that red light research. There's just, there's plenty of it. And I think, you know, if you're not doing some sort of red light, you're missing out on a tremendous easy opportunity that's relatively cost light because you can keep the device for months, if not years.

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely see a big difference and I'm a painfully honest person. So like if you were showing me and I didn't see anything, I'd be like, sorry, no. So yeah, I definitely see a big difference, which is really cool because like I remember when we were talking about this when I first told you that I was thinking about coming out with a mask.

Vanessa Spina:
Maybe eight months ago or something like that in the spring and you were yeah, you're showing me that you're wanting to, you know, have some red light therapy benefits there and it's so cool because it's just endless.

Vanessa Spina:
The amount of things that red light does is endless. Like we almost should have like a shower because I keep saying I think in 10 years everyone's going to have one like a hairdryer, like a panel in their bathroom.

Vanessa Spina:
But you almost have like a shower booth with red light and have it go all over your entire body for maybe like five minutes after you are done your shower and you can also warm up.

Scott Emmens:
I'm sorry, they used to have, not red light, but they used to have infrared lights in a lot of bathrooms with a timer. Do you remember those?

Vanessa Spina:
don't, but it sounds like similar. And I've seen in Prague, there's some solariums, the sunbeds that are like marketing themselves as like sun plus collagen. So you can go lay down in tanning bed, and you can get super damaging tanning rays.

Vanessa Spina:
And you can also get some red light while you're there, which I'm not. Yeah. But I would do it if they could just do like the red light, that would be kind of cool. Yeah, I'm sure there's some like, sort of a bond type of, you know, character out there who's got like a red light shower thing that I'm talking about already, or some athlete pro athletes, they're the ones who, you know, really got into this because they're always looking for that edge.

Vanessa Spina:
And, and they've all been doing the red light, you know, for years. And now it's just sort of becoming like, I wouldn't say it's mainstream, but it's in the biohacking community. It's like, if you don't have a red light, like, who are you?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, you have you'd have a red light. You can't even call yourself a bio hacker. But you're right on a pro athlete. I was talking to someone who we were engaged in some discussions with. And they had mentioned there's a red light like spas and saunas where they either do a sauna of infrared plus red light or just, you know, red light and near infrared light.

Scott Emmens:
And I think that's important that I think yours is both red light and near infrared light, right? I think it's got both the 660 and then the 830 nanometers. I'm not sure what your nanometers are, but basically you want a red light combined with a near infrared light.

Scott Emmens:
So just so people are clear that we call it red light, but it's really both the red light and the near infrared light. And if half your bulb looks like they're not working, that's just because it's near infrared light and you can't see it.

Scott Emmens:
That one penetrates a little deeper. They both serve slightly different purposes, but combined, they work really well. But he was saying that there's like a two week wait to get into these red light, you know, saunas.

Scott Emmens:
I was like, holy moly. And that's at LA. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
That's a big business. Yeah, it's really interesting too because I have one wavelength in the sapphire, I put four wavelengths that I found to be the most associated with benefits in the research. And one of them is orange light.

Vanessa Spina:
And I did the same thing with the mask because it's actually so close to red that it's considered like photovol modulation with red light, but it's called orange. And if you look at the light, sometimes the sapphire, if you're using it in the dark, sometimes you'll see it's a bit orangey and it's same.

Vanessa Spina:
It's just one of the wavelengths, but it has a lot of benefits too. And actually all the wavelengths have different benefits, which is really interesting. But red, fascinatingly activates this chromavore on the electron transport chain in the mitochondria.

Vanessa Spina:
So even when you're doing a hair treatment or you're doing a treatment for muscle repair and growth, or you're doing a treatment for like stubborn body fat or whatever it is you're doing it for, you're getting systemic benefits because we have mitochondria floating around in the blood that self -humidicondria.

Vanessa Spina:
So it just amazes me. And it's like, it's not, whoa, right? Like there's an insane amount of research showing this stuff. Well, I first started finding out about it. I was getting so excited because I'm like, there's so many who products out there.

Vanessa Spina:
There's like these mats with frequencies and there's crystals and there's all this stuff. And I love a crystal. Like crystals are cool, but to have something that has like tens of thousands of scientific studies, clinical studies behind it showing, my favorite one is actually the one in Denmark, where they had women who were infertile to the point where they were like completely resistant to everything, like IVF, like assisted fertility, everything.

Vanessa Spina:
And they used this thing called the gigalaser. And it's like this crazy powerful machine that they put over women's abdomens. And over half of the participants went on to successfully become pregnant and deliver healthy babies.

Vanessa Spina:
And one of them was 50. And they were blasting their ovaries with, like it's the most mitochondrial dense area in a women's body. They're blasting their ovaries with these jewels. And it's so exciting to see research like that.

Vanessa Spina:
And Japan and Denmark have been putting a lot of funding towards red light therapy research because they have really low fertility rates. And it's like for someone to see research like that. And maybe they've been going on a fertility journey and having fertility struggles, one of the most painful things that couples deal with, to see that like someone at 50 is using red light to become pregnant and have a healthy baby is just amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
So that's one of my favorite studies on it, but there's so much research behind it.

Scott Emmens:
That's why I love red light. And now do you feel it like relatively quickly the research is there? Absolutely.

Vanessa Spina:
So our last question for today comes to us from Laurie on Facebook and she says, if you could select your top three biohack items, what would they be? It gets overwhelming when listening to podcasts and wanting to try everything.

Vanessa Spina:
I love this question and I completely agree. I feel the same Laurie. So thank you so much for sharing that. What are your top three biohack items,

Scott Emmens:
Okay, so from three to one, I'll use items and then I'm going to include one practice, even though it says items and I'm not sure if items being supplements, so I'm going to probably leave supplements out.

Scott Emmens:
Maybe I'll mention one, but from an item standpoint, number three would probably be some type of heart variability monitor. I really feel strongly that if you're getting ill or not an optimal performance for a workout, like if you see your heart variability drop precipitously in an evening, you probably might want to skip your workout for that day.

Scott Emmens:
You're likely heading for an injury or an illness, so your body is telling you it needs a rest. Heart rate variability has been demonstrated time and time again to kind of be a leading indicator before you're even physically aware of either an illness or an injury that's upcoming, and it's so easy to track.

Scott Emmens:
You could do it with an oar ring, an apple watch, you can do it if you want the most accurate form. They have chest ones that go across your chest that will measure that, so that would be my number three.

Scott Emmens:
My number two biohacking item would probably be my cups, my cupping methods. I just got into this recently and I have found it incredibly powerful in combination with Redlight too because I was having just kind of like old man problems, like cramping in my thighs and cramping in my traps, and I was hydrated and had plenty of potassium and I was working out and like, what's going on here?

Scott Emmens:
What I started to discover was you have this layer of skin between your muscle and your skin. It's called fascia, and it's this really, really thick material that helps keep your muscle structure in place, but what can happen over time if you're an athlete particularly and you're always working out, you can get the scar tissue or layers of tissue between the fascia and the muscle where the fascia is either gripping muscle or scarring up or vice versa.

Scott Emmens:
I don't know all of the science behind it because at little, I just started this a couple of months ago, but I have had like again, this on my left leg, a cramp in my left leg that no matter how much I used those little guns to vibrate it out, it would just hurt more the next day.

Scott Emmens:
I started using these cups on my lats, my lower back and my thigh, and it was like within three days, I felt an unbelievable difference. The cramps were gone, the muscle felt stronger. It just was just like kind of a miracle maker.

Scott Emmens:
I was really surprised. These were my initial cups were just like little rubber cups with a suction on them that you kind of pumped and I could not believe how powerful they were. So now I've upgraded to like the more sophisticated ones and I'm a big fan of those cups.

Scott Emmens:
I think if you've got any kind of muscle aches or pains, that's a must have. And then I could not say number one is because of its versatility, its effect and this, it's got to be red light for sure.

Scott Emmens:
And curious to learn more about this orange light because I hadn't done that. I have heard about purple light. So I'm dying to know more about this orange light when we get done. But red light would be my number one.

Scott Emmens:
And then my item that I would mention in terms of the simple thing you could do is either cold plunge or ice bath. Use your way into it. Make sure that you have someone there. Make sure you check with your position that your heart and your body are ready for.

Scott Emmens:
If you're in the northeast or in a cold country like Prague, for example, you can use the water coming out of your shower and start that way. That's going to be like about 50 degrees, 55 coming out of your shower.

Scott Emmens:
And trust me, that's going to feel cold enough for your first exposure. The first time I ever got an ice bath, it was about 48 degrees and I lasted about 30 seconds. That's okay. And you do want to submerge all the way into a tub.

Scott Emmens:
If you can put your head under, that's great. But again, you can pass out and you have to be careful. So you want someone with you when you're doing this and you definitely want to be checked out by a physician.

Scott Emmens:
But cold immersion or ice baths for just a few minutes every other day, three to five minutes every other day between 55 and 45 degrees, it's going to get the job done. I've never been more ache -free in my joints and body, in my body than I was when I was regularly doing that.

Scott Emmens:
I just started doing it again because I was preparing for the polar bear plunge in January, which you may see some pictures of me on Facebook or on the IndieLogic page, running into the ocean like a maniac in January.

Scott Emmens:
But I figured I'd better get prepared for that. But that has got me re -hooked on it, as Vanessa will tell you, it is a very addictive but super powerful process. So those are my three items and my one free easy to do.

Vanessa Spina:
I love all of those. So in terms of items, like I think more of bio hacks, but in terms of items, I have to say, the number one for me is the tone device. That's why I created it, because I love getting biofeedback and keto is one of the most powerful bio hacks in terms of things you can do to reverse aging.

Vanessa Spina:
I know reverse aging is a kind of a controversial term, but it's really amazing how you can actually reprogram your genetics through epigenetics. Ketone's signal to your body to either unravel or not unravel certain genes and express those genes.

Vanessa Spina:
It's really amazing how they act as histone deacetylase inhibitors. There's so many things that keto does for us. Ketone's actually signal to our mitochondria to uncouple. And that helps in so many different ways to help support our mitochondria because we are uncoupling heat production from energy production and we have more mitochondria.

Vanessa Spina:
And so the biogenesis of mitochondria, it does so many things for the body in terms of health span. So it's the number one bio hack. And so I like to check my ketones to see how I'm doing in terms of getting ketosis.

Vanessa Spina:
And that's why I created the tone because I so tired of pricking my finger using those expensive test strips. And it's just really inconvenient. Like if you want to check your ketones and you're like on the go or you're at someone's house, like you don't just pull out like this kid and like prick your finger and all that.

Vanessa Spina:
But with the tone, you don't have to buy those expensive test strips. You just invest in one device and you can test an unlimited amount of times. And the other drawback with the blood is that you're only seeing a picture of what's circulating in that moment.

Vanessa Spina:
You're not seeing what's been produced and what's been used. So that was always my issue with that as well. And I don't like urine strip testing. I find that to be the most unreliable because once you basically keto adapt, you're not excreting these additional ketones anymore.

Vanessa Spina:
But the breath is not like the urine. The breath is showing you a byproduct of utilization. So about 20% of the ketones that your body produces from your stored body fat goes out in the form of BHB and acetoacetate.

Vanessa Spina:
And during that conversion, 20% of that then spontaneously decarboxylates or degrades into acetone. And acetone is so tiny that it goes out through your lungs. So when you're testing your breath, using a breath ketone analyzer, you're actually reading how many carbons are, those carbons are coming from your fat, from your stored fat.

Vanessa Spina:
So you're getting biofeedback on the level of ketosis you're at and you can also look at some interesting data between your blood and your breath and the ratios and correlation there and it'll show you how much you're using.

Vanessa Spina:
And so I find it fascinating. It's like my number one product for sure you use it every single day, no matter what. Second would definitely be red light therapy panels. And that's why I created the tone luxe line of red light therapy panels because red light is just so amazing as we've been gushing and gushing about.

Vanessa Spina:
And I would say the third is probably tone protein. It's my three favorite things that I use every day. But what better biohack is there than, recomposing your body, getting effortless, sort of recomposition, burning more fat.

Vanessa Spina:
There's so many research studies showing that people eating more calories than a control group when those extra calories are coming from protein, especially weight protein, you're burning more fat. Like it's such an amazing biohack to me if you wanna recompose your body.

Vanessa Spina:
And one of the best things you can do for your body is basically to get rid of excess, unneeded body fat and improve your metabolic health. And then gain muscle and become stronger and have stronger bones.

Vanessa Spina:
So definitely those are my three in terms of items. And I concur with you on the free one, ice baths. I cannot wait to do ice baths in sauna again. Once, you know, I'm back in the groove of doing that stuff because in the winter, it's cold enough in Prague that I just put bathwater, cold bathwater.

Vanessa Spina:
And it gets to between 10 and 15 Celsius, which is the equivalent of what you need. I'm not sure what it is in Fahrenheit, but what you need to be basically in an ice bath. And my hack, my free hack is that when you immerse yourself, and like you said, take all the precautions, check with your doctor, make sure you don't have a heart condition, make sure you're supervised, all those things that if you do find it's appropriate for you and not contraindicated, and you're sort of easing yourself into it, I like to get in there all the way as quickly as possible to my chin because we have brown fat that's around our collarbone.

Vanessa Spina:
And this thing called the turnover effect happens where it switches on our brown fat. And so within 30 to 60 seconds, I'm warm in the water, as long as I don't move much. Then when you get out again, it's freezing.

Vanessa Spina:
It's freezing when you get in, it's freezing when you get up. But once you're in and you're into your chin, you actually feel warm, you feel fine. And it's easy to stay in there and actually overdo it.

Vanessa Spina:
Dr. Susan Soberg, who was on the Huberman podcast, she did some studies showing what is the minimum effective dose, and she found it was 11 minutes a week. So you don't even need to do that much. Like if you're doing three or four sessions a week, it's only a few minutes.

Vanessa Spina:
And I find that way easier than a cold shower. Like cold shower is not, I find that much harder to do than to just sort of like put my arms on both side of the tub and get in and then just stay until here.

Vanessa Spina:
But that is one of the most powerful things I think you can do for your body as well is become cold adapted. And you'll notice it's extremely addictive. You feel amazing after, but you need less and less clothes when you go outside in the cold, which is like, you know, I'm starting to become that weirdo in the shorts.

Vanessa Spina:
And all my friends talk about it now.

Scott Emmens:
It's 30 degrees and you're out there like we're in shorts.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because between the thermic effective protein and the cold adaptation, I'm a warm person now. I was always that cold person. But once you really rev up your metabolism with, you know, good focus on protein, and you're also becoming cold adapted, like you start to become like really, really comfortable all the time.

Vanessa Spina:
And when you're always a person that's cold, it sucks. Like I just love being the person that I way rather be warm all the time. So it's a great combination. And yeah, that's my number one, just like the free hack.

Vanessa Spina:
But again, as Scott said, you know, make sure it's it's safe for you, your supervisor doing it with a friend or, you know, you made sure that it's it's fine for your heart and all that because it is it is intense, like it's really intense hack.

Vanessa Spina:
And you want to not be doing all the things all the time over functioning, over biohacking, I think you can get into a situation just like with red light, you don't want too little, you don't want too much, you got to find that that sweet spot.

Vanessa Spina:
So it was so much fun to talk about favorite biohacks with these God, I love doing this episode. And we had so many great questions. I'm super excited to record the next one with you, which are also co hosting with me.

Vanessa Spina:
And we have some more phenomenal questions in there. So thank you all so much for sending in these questions. And can't wait to chat with you on the next one, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
That sounds wonderful. Can't wait to do it. And thank you so much for bringing up the brown fat. I forgot about that. Not only that, you know, you're going to lose weight because that you're burning so many calories to stay warm.

Scott Emmens:
Like I never had less love handles than I did when I'm, you know, doing the ice bath three to four times a week. And I think you're right. Don't overdo it three to four times a week, three minutes time is good.

Scott Emmens:
I one time went 12 minutes at an hypothermia for like two and a half hours. So you can't overdo it. But it's been so much fun. Thank you for having me on. I hope we answered all the questions to the audience satisfaction.

Scott Emmens:
And I'm looking forward to the next one.

Vanessa Spina:
Awesome. Thank you so much, Scott. And thank you everyone for your fantastic questions. Be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ketogenic Girl and Scott, what is the MD logic handle for Instagram and yours?

Scott Emmens:
So MDLogic is a MDLogic Health is the Instagram. My personal one is at longevity protocol. So you can reach me there. You can get me there if you'd like. If you're interested in partnering in any way or you just have some questions or just wanna follow me, you can do that.

Scott Emmens:
And you can always reach me or MDLogic through. I think it's, I wanna say contact at MDLogicHealth.com. That's our email. But if you just go to our site, www.mdlogichealth.com, all our information is there including tone protein.

Vanessa Spina:
Excellent. Well, thanks so much and catch you on the next one.

Scott Emmens:
Thanks Vanessa.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Welcome to Episode 356 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Go to Defeat Your Cravings for a free copy of Defeat Your Cravings!

The lessons learned since the first book

What is "the pig"?

Loving yourself thin?

Mindful eating myth

Food rules and rebellion

Intermittent fasting

Extinction curve timeline

Eating by design

Hacking your cravings

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 356 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi friends, this is a very special episode today with Dr. Glenn Livingston. We don't even remotely touch on everything in his book, which is such a valuable resource. I cannot recommend enough. Everybody get it. And it's completely free, which is insane. So just go to freecravingsbook.com.

Melanie Avalon:
That's freecravingsbook.com. You can download the book completely free. It is such a valuable tool. It goes into the science of cravings, the science of overeating and bingeing, provides step by step plans to tackle the inner voice, your inner pig, that's telling you to eat all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
It has troubleshooting recovery plans, refutations for everything your inner pig might say and all the excuses it might make. So many things cannot recommend it enough. Freecravingsbook.com. Pause the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Go download it now. You will not regret it. All right. Now enjoy this fabulous conversation with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston. Hi friends, welcome back to the intermittent fasting podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode 356. And this is a very, very special episode, very long time coming. I am here with my dear, dear friend, Dr. Glenn Livingston friends. I have talked about Glenn so much on this show.

Melanie Avalon:
So a lot of you are probably already familiar through me mentioning it or through reading his prior work. Glenn is the author of a book that had thousands of reviews about overeating issues, binging issues, craving issues.

Melanie Avalon:
And since then he has released a new iteration of the book, updated it, added the latest science, added his latest thoughts. And I cannot recommend enough this book. It is called Defeat Your Cravings, The Back Door to Weight Loss.

Melanie Avalon:
And friends, the reason I've talked about Glenn so much on this show before is because he has a, if you're not familiar with it, a paradigm shifting mindset approach tool technique thing, which I'm sure we'll talk about in order to really address those moments of food temptation and cravings, especially with you guys doing intermittent fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
You might have these moments where you really want to eat these things that you're used to eating or that you're craving. And Glenn has a brilliant, simple, effective method that has helped so many people.

Melanie Avalon:
I personally have implemented it. Glenn, we were talking right before this about how we got connected, which was through your publicist, I believe. But did you know, I'd been reading your books way before that.

Melanie Avalon:
Did you know that? I've been following you for years. I did not know that. Yeah. Since like 20, when did you publish your first book? What year?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
2015.

Melanie Avalon:
Since then. Really? Yeah. Because I can remember where I was when I first read your book and it was in the apartment that I lived in like 2016. So right after that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm honored. You were a very young lady at that time.

Melanie Avalon:
I was. Those were the days.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You still look pretty young, lady.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Thank you. Wow, that's crazy. And even at that time, when I read it, it had a lot of... I mean, that was in the beginning and it had a lot of reviews and a lot of fanfare. So, I'm super curious.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, we need to talk about your system and everything, but this new book, Defeat Your Cravings, what inspired you to write it? Well, I think it's a great book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The whole system, I wrote the first book, which had almost 20 ,000 reviews now, I think, in 2015 while I was getting divorced, basically about how I personally overcame overeating. It was different than the standard approach out there, although I've come to learn that it actually resonates with what the evidence says works for overcoming overeating, which is cognitive behavioral therapy and maybe some SSRI medication.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I wrote it in the absence of a deep knowledge of the science of cravings formation and extinction. Since I wrote that book, I've had experience with over a million readers of the first book and over a million readers in psychology today, and over 2 ,000 paying clients who came through my group and individual programs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like I have a much more comprehensive understanding of how to overcome overeating now than I did way back when. Also, Melanie, while I was getting divorced, I was in a pretty angry state of mind, and I feel like it came through in the book.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I wrote it like a pissed -off middle -aged guy getting divorced. I think that in some ways, that's why it became so popular because it was a radically different way of looking at it's a tough love approach to taking control of your own mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I don't think it had the same level of compassion that I really have for over -readers. I also don't think it was nearly as comprehensive or doctor -like. Like I am a psychologist. I do think in a comprehensive way, and there are pieces and parts that come together.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The old book was really about fixing your thinking to stop overeating and how I fixed my thinking by keeping a journal, and it took me a while. And then we worked with all these clients, and I had all these coaches working with me.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We got really good at fixing people's thinking quickly. But what would happen is, I can give examples of all this if you want to, but what would happen is, no matter how well I help people to disempower their excuses about overeating, they would still get to this point where they said, screw it, just do it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know you can't really start tomorrow because tomorrow never comes. If you say start tomorrow and you eat a bar of chocolate, that you're going to reinforce both the craving and the thought about starting tomorrow.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you are more likely to say start tomorrow again tomorrow and have a stronger craving. And so you can only ever use the present moment to be healthy, and if you're in a hole, you better stop digging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That would be an example of fixing your thinking. And that's what the whole old program was about. But it was very, very effective. We got by like 2022, we were to the point that after one month, people would have reduced their overeating self -reported episodes by about 89 .4%.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if the six -month market was more like 55% and the year market was a little lower, and that really bothered me, and I don't know if I'm giving you a long -winded answer to your very first question.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so then we saw the screw it, just do it, response, and that's when I realized I had to update the book and put in everything I knew about overcoming that response, which has more to do with overcoming organismic distress and understanding the science of craving that it does with fixing your thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's why I wrote the new book.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. I did not know that about you going through. I knew about your divorce, but I didn't know that that was during that time of writing that first book. I can totally see the change in tone in the second one.

Melanie Avalon:
I loved how you go deep into the science of everything in this new iteration. I thought it was so fascinating. And that's so interesting about that second phase response. So now, because you open the book with a really, you know, it sounds like a pipe dream, salesy, almost too good to be true.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you really help 85% now perpetually?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We don't have data on the perpetual level. We just opened the new program a couple of months ago. So I could tell you that it's more. It's, I don't have a statistically reliable sample yet, but I can tell you that it's more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's what I can tell you. And just, you know, anecdotally, qualitatively, my experience in working with people like this is that it's easier to hold onto than just fixing your thinking.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So I'm trying to decide because I have so many specific nuanced questions about the approach, but can we just tell listeners a little bit about the actual concept? So what is the pig?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let me first say, I had a very serious over -reading problem myself that I tried everything you could imagine to fix it for about 20 years. I come from a family of 17 psychotherapists, and when something breaks in the house, everybody knows how to ask it, how it feels, and nobody knows how to fix it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so, for the first 20 years of my trying to overcome over -reading, I was trying to love myself then. I thought there was a hole in my heart, and if I could fix that hole in my heart, then I could probably fix the hole in my stomach, or I wouldn't have to keep trying to fill the hole in my stomach.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I went to a psychologist and psychiatrist, and over it is anonymous, and I cried and I screamed, and I had a spiritual journey, and it made me a very soulful person, but it really didn't fix the problem.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I get a little thinner and a lot fatter every time I tried something new. And during that time, I was also consulting for industry. I was married to a woman who commuted, who traveled for business most of the week, and I had time for a second career.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I was a child and family psychologist with a big practice, but I also started doing advertising research for the food industry and the pharma industry, but most of the food industry. And in the course of doing that, while I was going through all of these love yourself thin rituals, I started to notice that they were spending millions of dollars to get these rocket scientists to engineer hyperpalatable concentrations of starch and sugar and fat and salt and exciter toxins, and it was all geared at hitting the bliss point in the reptilian brain without giving you enough nutrition to feel satisfied.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And eventually, looking at that got through to me, it made me realize that maybe it's not about the fact that my mama dropped me on my head or her mama dropped her in her head or that she didn't love me enough or she was going through something of her own when I was little.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Maybe it has more to do with what these big companies are doing and they're hitting these evolutionary buttons and creating addiction. And the hitting these evolutionary buttons that exist in the reptilian brain, it's not the higher brain where love lives and long -term goals and achievement live and strategic planning and rational thinking.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're hitting our primitive survival buttons. And I eventually thought to myself, maybe I need a more of a tough love approach. Maybe you can't really love yourself thin because the part of the brain that they're targeting doesn't really know love and kind of bringing you up to speed about what is the pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I did something a little crazy. I decided that I had to create a kind of tripwire. If I was going to be the alpha wolf of my own brain when this lower part of my brain was trying to take control, I said, I need to create a kind of a tripwire so that I know when it's active.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so I would make a rule, like I will never have chocolate on a weekday again. And that way, if I was in a Starbucks and there was a big old chocolate bar on the counter, and it was calling to me and I heard a little voice in my head that said, you know what, Glenn, you worked out hard enough and you're not going to gain any weight if you have a couple of ounces of chocolate.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Go ahead and start your silly rule tomorrow. Let's just get some of the chocolate right now. Yippee, feed me. I would say, wait a minute, that's not me. That's my inner pig squealing for pig slap. And chocolate is pig slap on a Wednesday.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't eat pig slap. And I don't let farm animals tell me what to do. And Melanie, I was not going to teach this. I was not going to publish this. This was a very private thing internally. I will tell everyone you don't have to call it a pig.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You can call it a food monster or anything that's just a little bit aversive to you that you don't want to take control. But you do need to have something that wakes you up at that moment of impulse and makes you say, well, wait a minute to hear who's in charge because you're going to need to research yourself at that point.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you think that you need to love yourself more at that point, it's going to leave you very vulnerable to the to the pig taking control. So what I'd done back then was I established a tripwire and it would wake me up and I'd have these extra microseconds to make a better choice.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I wouldn't always make the right choice. I wasn't instantly cured, but sometimes I did more so than I did before I made the tripwire. And over time, I experimented with different rules. I would start to fix what the pig was saying.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if it said, you know, oh, one bite is not going to make a difference, I would say, well, it's never just a bite. And one bite is the difference between whether you're in charge or I'm in charge, which is a totally different way of life.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a difference between making important food decisions with my head and my intellect versus making them with my emotions and whims and impulses. And so, you know, one bite is a tragedy. And I would disempower that thought.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And over the course of about eight years, I got better by fixing my thinking about food, fixing my thinking about food. So that's what the pig is. The pig is the, it's the sum total of all the thoughts that suggest you're going to break very specific rules that you lay out for yourself.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, we define it as that, which is also a good definition of your lower self. And then you are all the, all the thoughts and feelings that suggest that you're going to stick to your plans. And by, by accomplishing that separation, what I know now that we're, we were doing was interfering with the automatic habit loops that the brain is so good at implementing in order to acquire calories and nutrition.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just opened up the space between stimulus and response where I could start to, I could start to have an impact, whereas nothing else did. When I would be thinking about, you know, like earlier on I'd be thinking about, well, maybe I really need a hug or maybe I need to cry about, you know, what my mother did to me when I was a kid or, you know, maybe I need to assert myself in some way with someone that bothered me when I was thinking about all these emotional needs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It didn't give me the clarity to figure out the choices that I could make. And also there's, those emotional needs are pretty hard to fulfill. And it's, it's hard to fix the traumas that you went through as a kid.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it's hard to, you make yourself dependent upon, dependent upon what happens with these other people in relationships if you feel like you've got to solve all of those conflicts before you stop with reading.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I just started focusing on that space between stimulus and response and what I could do, that's when I started to get better.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love two big myths that you dismantled there. One is the loving yourself, then the emotional role of it. And you even mentioned in the book, you said that you talk about how your work with clients and how some clients do still insist on starting with the emotional work first.

Melanie Avalon:
And you say that when that's the order that less than half of the time, are they ultimately successful and everything? But you also draw attention to the fact that people can still, you know, work on their emotional connection and the reasons and everything, but it's not like the actionable step that you can implement now that can actually make the change and change the habits and, you know, address those habit loops.

Melanie Avalon:
So, so effective.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I remember a guy that told me that if I really wanted to know what my psychological traumas were, that I should stop overeating and then I would know, as opposed to trying to fix all my traumas before I stopped overeating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? And it's true. If you, the brain has difficulty conducting the emotions when the digestive system is overloaded with food. And so when you're constantly overeating, you're not really aware of all the thoughts and feelings surrounding your traumas.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So it actually works better to focus on these very practical techniques to stop overeating and then go hire a good therapist to help you with them or psychologist or psychiatrist to help you process the traumas.

Melanie Avalon:
And then sort of related the second huge paradigm shift myth busting that happens. There's the whole mindful eating world. And there's this idea that we should be able to mindfully eat these foods in small amounts.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's funny because I listened to so many podcasts. And I was listening to a podcast once, and I got so angry, which kind of says something about me. Like, clearly, I was being triggered by the episode, so I'm not sure what that means.

Melanie Avalon:
But basically, the girl being interviewed was making this very elaborate case for why we should always be able to eat a little bit of anything. And if we don't, if we feel like we're not able to, or if we have like a quote restriction rule around it, that means that we are not in touch with ourselves.

Melanie Avalon:
And it means that we, you know, it means there's work still for us to do if we can't have just like a little piece of the chocolate. When for me, I'm like, well, chocolate, I don't really have a problem with.

Melanie Avalon:
But if it's like Fun Fetti Cake, if I have one piece of that, it's not food. It's like a processed drug thing that is programmed to make me crave it and want it more. So I don't feel like I should have to mindfully eat that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, what are your thoughts on mindful eating?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, I think 100 ,000 years ago, we wouldn't have needed food rules and we could have eaten when we were hungry and stopped when we were full. And I think that eating mindfully is a good idea, but it's not sufficient to help you eat healthy in today's modern food environment.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the food industry is manufacturing things which can turn off your ability to know when you're hungry and full. And I mean, literally there are, you know, hormone, there's hormone interference in some of the packaging.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so if what you're eating has broken your ability to know when you're mind, when you're hungry and full, then how can you rely on your ability to know when you're hungry and full entirely to control it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So my metaphor would be more like driving. I think it's really important to drive mindfully to be present while you're driving and pay attention. But you also need to pay attention to the lights and the stop signs and the yield signs.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And, you know, in a city without stop signs and yield signs and traffic lights, you wouldn't really, really be safe to drive around. So I think that the controls actually expand your freedom and make it possible to navigate a larger radius of locomotion.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, have the free flow of commerce and socialization in a city or, you know, like the metaphor we go back to making it possible to enjoy more foods and more taste satisfaction and more freedom.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that the rules make it possible to do that versus the you've got to be able to eat everything approach. Some people respond negative. Well, let me see one more thing about it before I go into how some people respond.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I think that a good food rule is like a kitchen knife and you could use it to over restrict or you could use it to chop vegetables. So I don't think the problem is the knife. I think the problem is the way that the rules are used.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I mean, I would refer that people use it to chop vegetables. Some people are overtaken by a feeling of rebelliousness and response to rules. And so either they make rules that are way too strict. And, you know, like if you say, I'm only going to eat 500 calories a day, your survival systems are going to be on overload, trying to press you to have a lot more.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And they're going to say, forget about your silly rule. So it's really hard to maintain that. You know, so there's some rules you can't make. I always joke and say you couldn't make a rule that say I'll never pee again because your bladder is going to tell you otherwise.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to authentically nourish yourself. But let's just seem to have a reasonable rule. There are some people who are thrown by the rebellious feelings that the rules engender. And I would say that the goal in my system is to sever the link between all emotions and overeating and make important food decisions with your head.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And rebellion is just another emotion. Why do you want to reify the rebel inside of you? Or can't you just understand that as another emotion, like anxiety or anger or, you know, or sadness or... You don't need to eat because you feel too angry.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You don't need to eat because you feel too sad. You don't need to eat because you feel too anxious. Why do you have to eat because you feel too rebellious? Why can't you follow the rule anyway? So I'm in favor of teaching people to eat by design rather than to eat on impulse.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I have a disagreement with the mindfully community that it says that you have to allow all foods. I do have a disagreement with that. I think it's very possible to use rules to be over restrictive. And if you are physically over restrictive, your body will rebel for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Those aren't the kind of rules that we encourage people to make. We actually try to get people to make weight loss kind of a secondary goal. And the first goal is to have a normal, calmer, easier, more peaceful relationship with food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, where you're flooding your body with nutrition and a slight caloric deficit if you want to lose weight and you're not going through these tremendous ups and downs. And really the primary purpose is to be able to make decisions about foods and foods behaviors that were previously under the control of your impulses and emotions instead.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So does that answer your question?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, it does. And you know what's really interesting? It's actually, well, first of all, I'm very much a rules -oriented person. So to me, it works really well right off the bat because I see rules as freedom.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I can live my life when I have the rules in place and you answer my question because I was gonna ask about people who are rebellious or have you read Gretchen Rubin's Fortunes?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you would like it. Are you familiar with it? A little. It's like basically, do you fulfill inner or outer or a blend or neither expectations? So which rules do you follow or which rules do you rebel against?

Melanie Avalon:
And she has it, four different types of people.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
as I can need to read that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, probably. I mean, it goes so well with your work. But interestingly, it's actually very similar. So the example you're making about the knife and how it's used, and then also the rules, it's actually very similar to me hearing it to intermittent fasting because you're basically setting up these rules about when you eat or don't eat.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not personal, it's not emotional, at least it's not supposed to be. Then you just exist within that frame. And anything during the fasting window, any voice you would hear telling you to eat is, it would be quote, pig squeal, with the assumption that those rules, those fasting rules aren't being made from an overrestrictive place.

Melanie Avalon:
So they aren't using the knife like you said to. What did you say? What was the bad way to use it?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, you could imagine bad ways to use a knife but just use a knife to chop vegetables. We find the best results when people start with a 12 hour window to begin with. And then after a couple of months, if they want to have a tighter window, then it can work out.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But you and I want to talk about this. And you explained to me why that might be. I just know that it is. I find that if people, unless they've been intermittent fasting for a long time or they're not eating a lot of processed food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I think that when people have been, especially if they've been binging or just eating a lot of bags and boxes and containers of stuff, I find that we do better if they'll start with a 12 hour window before they tighten that up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Do you have thoughts about that?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I mean, I can definitely see that working. And for a lot of people, easing in to intermittent fasting is the approach that really works for them. And I can see how, especially if they're coming from a sort of binging type background or overeating type background, that that would be, you know, a really powerful approach.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, then it wouldn't be just relying on intermittent fasting to, quote, fix everything. It's this really, really powerful mindset tool, you know, psychological tool that you've created. So, I mean, if it's working in your clients, sounds like a plan to me.

Melanie Avalon:
And 1212 is, I don't want to make assumptions, but I think a lot of people on the standard American diet eating system, if they haven't thought about it before and they were randomly asked how much do they eat during the day, they might think it's like 1212.

Melanie Avalon:
But when they've done studies where they actually see what people are eating, people are eating like constantly, like most people eat once they wake up and then they snack throughout the day and then they snack right before bed.

Melanie Avalon:
So most people aren't, you know, are not doing a 1212 thing. So, you know, that's a great place to start.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay, good. That's a good intersection of our work then. Melanie, you know that the last thing I want to see about them, the allow everything approach is that it does work for some people. I don't want to discourage people from doing that if it really works for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
We get complaints from the people that come to us who that was working for. They'll say, I'm not binging because I allow everything. So I don't ever feel rebellious, but I don't feel like I can eat as healthy as I want to.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They're trying to achieve a higher level of health. And I think that's a benefit of our system is helping you to get there.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically they can use the system to make these new choices surrounding what they're eating within that mosaic of eating everything. Awesome. Awesome. And listeners, I really, really cannot recommend enough getting the book.

Melanie Avalon:
Just get it now. Get it now. If you've ever experienced anything with cravings or overeating or any struggles with food, it's crazy. I just think this is a reason that your work has had such an incredible response.

Melanie Avalon:
It's crazy how much people will identify with it. You get so specific and you list off things and it's like, oh yeah, I've literally heard that exact thing in my head. It's kind of like Taylor Swift.

Melanie Avalon:
How she relates to everybody for the people who like Taylor Swift.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The book is free on the website, by the way, for Ken O 'Nilkin PDF.

Melanie Avalon:
So you can get it free at freecravingsbook.com. Okay, get it now. Freecravingsbook.com. So I have a few questions, specific questions that I liked with content that you had in this book specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
And it's been a while since I read your first one. I actually read a lot of, because you had quite a few. I've written eight books. Eight books, okay. I probably read, I probably read half of those probably.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Most of them were written in the early years though. I hadn't written a book since 2019.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, in the early years, I remember I read your first book and then I was like, oh, I got to read all of them. So but in any case, so I think the things I'm going to ask you about right now are new to this book, but they might have been touched on in previous books.

Melanie Avalon:
So one of the things I found so fascinating was you talk about the extinction curve timeline. So the actual process that well, first of all, you talk about the science of a habit and a craving and what the brain actually goes through.

Melanie Avalon:
And then when you stop indulging that, what the brain goes through and what that looks like and what that timeline looks like, which is probably very helpful to people because apparently it's got some twists and turns and you think you're you think you're through it and then you're not.

Melanie Avalon:
Was this the first time we're talking about the extinction curve timeline?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
This is the first thing I'm talking about it with you, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you talk about it in the previous books?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
No, no, no, we had a webinar once about it, but that's not available anymore.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so it was new. So one of the things I found so fascinating is, because I think a lot of times people will, you know, be working on a specific craving or not eating a certain food, and then they'll be doing pretty good, and then they'll wanna have it, you know, like a slip up, like just this one time, like it'll just be this one time, but even if it is just that one time, you point out the role of randomness and that if you, and I'll let you explain it better, but basically this idea that the uncertainty surrounding whether or not you're going to have something makes the brain want it even more.

Melanie Avalon:
So if you randomly do indulge, you're actually making it much worse, even if it's just that quote one time. I was wondering if you could expand on that a little bit more. I find this so fascinating.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Rather than jumping into the middle to make that one particular point, I'd like to give you some background about how cravings are formed and extinguished in the first place. And then it'll be easier to explain why randomly reinforcing a craving is about the worst thing you could do.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Is that okay? That's perfect. So let's start with the understanding that if you have a strong craving, if you have stronger cravings than other people, that's actually a sign that you have a healthier mind than other people, a healthier brain than other people, not a sick mind.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You need to know that 100 ,000 years ago, food was not nearly as abundant as it is now. And as a consequence, we had to work for it a lot. As a matter of fact, the bulk of our day was probably involved in sourcing and finding and motivating in ourselves to go find food.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if we, if we didn't have strong cravings, we would have died because we wouldn't have been motivated to, you know, go hunt and gather and, you know, organize and bring food back and feed our family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so the brain evolved this system for motivating us to do what was necessary to go find food. And it does that through the use mostly of dopamine. And it, it does that through the same mechanism to form the craving and extinguish the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So this is important also, because people think that they must be broken. They can form cravings, but they can't extinguish them. But it's not true. If you have a strong craving, it means your brain is working, which means that the extinction process will work also.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So that's very important to overcome any notion that your brain is broken like that. If you don't have lesions in your ventromedial hypothalamus, or, you know, if you haven't had a serious brain trauma, and sometimes even if you have it, it's very unlikely that you can't extinguish a craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Okay. So let's, let's imagine there is a caveman. I'll call him Thag, T -H -A -G, Thag. And I just like the name. It's a random. I love it. It's a really random name. And let's say that Thag is out looking for food and he sees a monkey.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And he follows a monkey to a banana tree. And Thag is so happy that he gorges himself on bananas. He would have eaten mass quantities because remember food was scarce back then. And it would have taken as many as he could back to his wife and family.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What would then happen is that the next time Thag saw a monkey, his brain would secrete a bunch of dopamine and try to get Thag to follow the monkey because he was more likely to find food if he followed a monkey than if he was just randomly searching.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So the monkey had some utility. We'll call the monkey a food signal. And in today's modern environment, that would be akin to seeing a sign for a donut store or a hamburger place or, you know, a convenience store that you're familiar with, all of the branding and signage.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Their food signals also, they lead you to the acquisition of calories and nutrition and sometimes just calories. Now, suppose that I decide that I'm eating too many donuts. I'm stopping at this one particular donut store on the way home from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I'm having three or four donuts every time. And so I'm developing a little punch and I decide I have to extinguish that. So I decide to make a rule that says, I will never stop for donuts on the way home from work again.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what most people think will happen at that point, and I'm going to go back to Thag in a minute to explain why, but most people think what will happen is that you're going to have the worst cravings on day one.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's going to be hardest on day one. Then it'll be a little less hard on day two, a little less hard on day three, all the way until you get to the point that the donut store doesn't bother you anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's not actually what happens. What happens is you have a little honeymoon period right away. So it's actually easier than you think it's going to be for the first couple of days or exposures, which are an exposure is passing the donut store and not having the donut.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then the brain does something which is called an extinction burst. I call it the worthy effort of my donuts reaction. It says, I used to get donuts whenever I passed the store and I don't get donuts anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Where am I calories? See, the brain thinks that this is keeping you alive. It thinks that the acquisition of massive amounts of calories is necessary to keep you alive. It thinks you're going to die if you don't stop for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That's why this is so difficult. Why does it do that? Let's go back to Thag. Thag follows a monkey the next day, and at least to a tree with bananas, he's really happy. And then the next thing, and the next thing, and the next day, and it becomes a really solid habit.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
He gets so excited when he sees monkeys. But then one day, Thag follows a monkey. It's later in the season, the bananas will become scarce, and they get to a tree without any bananas on it. Thag was really sad and disappointed.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Many people think that at that point, in fact, his brain would give up and would stop motivating him to follow monkeys to trees. But what it does instead is it doubles down, it secretes even more dopamine, and makes Thag even more motivated to go follow monkeys to trees.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And the reason for that is that it would be more beneficial, more of a survival advantage, to hold on to a food signal, to find a monkey that led you to a tree with bananas 70% of the time, or 50% or even 20% of the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It would still be a survival advantage as opposed to having no monkey at all. Your brain is a calorie acquisition machine, and when it's learned that there's a signal that makes it more likely you're going to find food than if you didn't have that signal, it doesn't wanna let go of that, and it's gonna motivate you to engage in the behavior that led to the calorie acquisition before.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what that corresponds to in the extinction curve is this extraordinary effort to test whether the reward has become available at random. It's called intermittent variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's like what happens with a slot machine. You don't know when it's gonna pay off. So you know you have to be there pulling the lever. This is why those little ladies get stuck at the Las Vegas slot machines, because they don't know when it's gonna pay off.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And sometimes they'll even fight if they go to the bathroom and someone takes their spot for a second. There's this feeling of compulsion that you have to get the reward. And that's you have to be there to get the reward.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You have to engage in the behavior to get the reward. And that's what the extinction burst or the worthy effort in my donuts reaction is about, your brain is testing to see whether the reward has become intermittently available at random.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Now, if you push through that, what most people do is they say, oh my God, this is too hard. And their inner pigs say, well, this torture is gonna last forever. You obviously can't do it. What most people do at that point is they give up and they reward the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
They reward the food signal. And so now they've proven to the brain that it was intermittently available at random. And the brain goes, oh, good, I did the right thing. I generated this extinction burst.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I generated this horrible craving. And the extinction curve resets and people start to feel like they're powerless over the problem. But it's really just because they don't understand what's happening.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if you can tell yourself, you don't have to do anything about that craving. What you want to do is plan out these extinction curves, pick a very particular craving, plan out the extinction curve, and plan to take extra good care of yourself over the course of the whole curve.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So what reinforces people's willpower is having good enough nutrition and good enough sleep and good enough hydration and feeling like they're part of a tribe and they're not isolated and minimizing their other decisions they have to make over the course of the day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And what you want to do is take this all very seriously. Don't go into battle wearing a plastic helmet. Tell yourself this is going to be hard. The brain doesn't want to give up the calorie acquisition learning, but you can push through it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Once you do, then you start to enter a more or less linear reduction in cravings. But the brain is going to throw out a couple of mini tantrums at the very end of the extinction curve. Somewhere around the 20 to 30 exposure mark, you're going to get a couple of little tries, little cravings for donuts.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you push through that and you allow you know, allow the full extinction curve to take place, you will then hardly be bothered at all because the brain will then say, okay, it's obviously a waste of energy to follow the monkeys.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's obviously just a waste of energy to get you all motivated when you see the donut sign. I'm going to label this as dormant. It's not gonna erase the craving. It's not gonna erase the learning because what if monkeys lead to banana trees again someday, but it's gonna label it dormant so it won't bother you unless and until you reinforce it again?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Does that make sense, Melanie? Yes, it does. So then, if you don't want to give up donuts entirely and two or three people are capable of doing this, and if you've gone too far down the, you know, the automation loop and you've dug too deep of a groove, then it might be you have to give up, but I give it up.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But I find that two or three people can moderate rather than abstain. The way you do that is to very specifically bind the reward to a particular context.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love this concept so much.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
much? Well, yeah, because it makes it possible for you to have what you want without having to, you know, give up your freedom. We call it eating by design. So if you were to say, I will only ever have donuts on Saturday mornings after my workout and no more than two.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
What you're really doing is setting up a set of food signals that have to work in concert and your brain is smart. It knows how to recognize the particular contacts. It'll say, okay, I need to have experience the workout.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's got to be Saturday. It's got to be morning. And there's a limit of two. And it's kind of like if you were to have a slot machine in a casino that only paid off on Saturday mornings at 10am, the casino would be empty all week long.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The little old ladies would suddenly not be there after a week or two, they would not be there because it only paid off on Saturday. And then there'd be a mad rush on Saturdays. And so that's how cravings work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole. The last thing I would tell you about cravings, which is important, is that, well, two more things. One is that at the end of the extinction curve, when things are starting to be labeled dormant, a lot of people make the mistake of becoming overconfident and saying, I've got this.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So now let me try just stopping at random at the donut store again. And boom, they reset the extinction curve, they simulate the variable ratio, intermittent reinforcement schedule, and they're bringing lights up and reignites the craving.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So once you break out of prison, don't go back to see your friends. If you want to re -experience the food, do it by design, don't do it at random because you're feeling cocky. Okay, the last thing to remember about cravings, I lie, there might be two last things.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But the most important last thing to remember about cravings is that they're tied to specific food signals. So let's say I go through 30 days, even 60 days, and I'm just really not bothered. I don't even think about stopping at the donut store on the way back from work.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I don't, I don't, I don't obsess about it during the day. It's just not really part of my life. It's where I wanted to be. I'm really happy. And then I go to my mom's house. I haven't seen her for a couple of months and she invites me over for breakfast.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And there's a big old plate of donuts like she always has when I go for breakfast at mom's house. And I've got cravings like I've never had before. I'm thinking, what's wrong? I must have failed. This is too hard.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I must have failed. But you didn't fail. You succeeded at extinguishing the donuts from the donut store sign. You didn't succeed at extinguishing your mom's house on Saturday mornings, you know, when, when you go to her place and you hadn't been there in a while.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So as a practical matter, when you really want to, when you have a food that's troubling you or craving that's troubling you, you want to think about all of the different stimuli that it's attached to and make a plan for it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And if there are infrequent stimuli like going to your mom's house that it's attached to, then you want to write yourself reminders like actually plan out an email to arrive to yourself just before you go into mom's house and what the day that you're going to be there in the day after.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And maybe in that email, it will remind you to eat a little more healthy food before you go. It reminds you what your pig is going to say and what's wrong with what your pig is going to say, like just a little more hurt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you'll, you write out the refutation for that, the answer to why the pig is wrong about that. It'll remind you to drink more water, it'll remind you to get a little more sleep. And then you can extinguish those exposures as well.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Don't get thrown if the craving comes back in response to another stimuli. Just understand it's a little bit like a game of whack -a -mole.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
These things are going to pop up because there are other stimuli that you won't have experienced. But if you keep whacking them down and keep going through the extension curves for them, you get to the point that they just don't bother you at all anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Your pig will say it's going to go on forever. As a practical matter, usually about 80% of cravings for a given substance is related to one or two daily food signals, and then the remaining 20% are with these infrequent signals that come over the course of time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That is, I think, the answer to your question.

Melanie Avalon:
Super amazing. Some quick follow -up questions. So that extinction curve timeline that you just went through, is it a set amount of time regardless of what the person is trying to tackle, or is it longer for some, shorter for others?

Melanie Avalon:
I know you talk about the role of the counterintuitive idea that it takes longer for cravings that we were more intermittently dealing with, compared to every day. So is there like a general amount of time that it takes, or is it random?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a number of exposures, not a specific amount of time. Most cravings are daily habits, and those can usually be extinguished in about 30 days, 30 exposures. If it's something you do every week, let's say you're playing poker every Saturday and you're eating pretzels every Saturday, that's gonna take longer.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That could take 30 weeks to get through. And so you're gonna need a little more support to do that. And so that's, so you'll set up emails and friends to call you and things for 30 weeks. So you can really get through that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So yeah, it's, I mean, and it also varies depending upon how long the craving was reinforced in the first place and how strong it is, but varies depending upon how pleasurable the experience was for you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So these are principles, not hard and fast rules, but generally spanking for a daily habit, somewhere in the first four to 10 days, you're gonna have that extinction burst, which is the hardest part to get through.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And then you're gonna have very strong relief right around the corner. And the only way out is through. You should be excited when you have the craving because the only way to kill a craving is to have a craving and not reinforce it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You know, and once you understand this, you kind of prioritize your extinction curve and get at it, man. There's no use dilly -dallying around. You can make this happen.

Melanie Avalon:
Nice. And if you do indulge, let's say you're at like day 29, does it reset to the very beginning or?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It kind of does. Yes. I mean, people have had the experience, so they'll find it a little easier to get through, but please don't shoot the messenger. Don't reset it at day 29, please. Please don't do that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, another question. You mentioned in the book and you mentioned it here as well, that cravings are never extinguished, they just go dormant. If you had a craving and you successfully went through the curve and now it's dormant and it's in the past, is there the possibility of having it again and not enjoying it as much for whatever reason and rewriting how your brain interprets that food item?

Melanie Avalon:
And the reason I'm asking, I'll just elaborate really quickly, is because when Jin used to host this show with me, we would often talk about Fun Fetty Cake because like I said, that's my thing. She would swear up and down that my food buds had changed and if I were to try it now, I would not like it.

Melanie Avalon:
And she said that she had tried things like that now and she didn't like them, like things she used to crave, that she no longer crave them and she could eat them now. I was like, nope, that's not me.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, I know if I have it again, it will taste amazing. And yeah, and it did. I actually tried some gluten -free Fun Fetty Cake and it was like the most amazing thing I've ever tasted. I was like, okay, we're not going down this rabbit hole at all, but I feel like I did have something similar where I don't know the context of, it's really vague in my memory, but I feel like I had an experience where I did rehab something and I just didn't like it as much now and that actually helped me want it less.

Melanie Avalon:
So is there that possibility of retrying something from the past and actually having that help you not want it more or is it like once it's a craving, keep it in the past?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
There is that possibility. First of all, there is the possibility of going through the extinction curve. You know, like a lot of people will go through a 90 day period where they have no sugar, flour or alcohol.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But that's one of the best resets you could do if you're really struggling. Go through 90 days with no sugar, flour or alcohol and then look at the difference in how you're thinking and what rules you want to set and how you want to eat at the end of that versus the beginning.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It's a very freeing thing to do. And I've seen a lot of people do that and then say, I think that I will allow sugar once a week at a restaurant for one serving of dessert or something like that. A lot of times that's possible.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm not guaranteeing it. It's at your own risk. A lot of times that is possible, especially when people really study this stuff hard. So they're not part of what allows the habit automation loop to take hold is this idea of powerlessness or that it's a disease or if there's something wrong with you.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And when you get rid of those ideas and you really understand what's going on, it's often possible to moderate something that you couldn't moderate before because you say, all that's happening is my brain's really excited.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I'm just, I really, really like this. That doesn't mean I have to do it. I can just extinguish it again. So I have seen people come up with conditional rules to bind their pleasures to certain contexts after needing to not have them at all for a long time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I feel like it's safer in most cases if you decided you didn't, you really couldn't have it. It's probably safer not to have it. But let's go to the specific question you're asking. Could you have a toxic experience with a previously pleasurable substance?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
The answer to that is yes, because of the phenomenon of down regulation and up regulation. So your being is designed to avoid overloading your brain with stimulation if that stimulation is not relevant to the acquisition of what it wants.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
When I used to sleep underneath the subway, when I went to graduate school, my parents got me an apartment with these crazy pediatrics students that slept just about underneath the subway. And I could not understand how anybody slept.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But three weeks later, I didn't even hear the subway and I slept like a baby. And the reason for that is that my brain down regulated or habituated to the noise. It decided that stimuli was not relevant anymore.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Let's say you really like super salty things that your desire for super salty things probably didn't occur. I'm sorry, let me back up for a second. The same process would happen if you would eat something salty every day.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Like if you eat something a little bit salty, it would be interesting then you put a little more salt on it, a little more salt on it. Because in order to get the same pleasure response from the salt, you need a little more, a little more, a little more because your brain is down regulating in the same way that it down regulated that's response to the subway.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Because it's not going to respond to salt in the way that it normally does. Okay, so now you get to the point that you're eating these nacho chips that have two grams of salt in them in a bag and you hardly even taste the salt.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
It just tastes it tastes good to you, but not as good as the first time you had it maybe. And you need more and more salt to make it taste good. So you're eating super, super salty nacho chips, then you decide to extinguish that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
If you then go back 90 days later and you have one of those super salty nacho chips, it's going to taste too salty to you because over the course of that 90 days, your brain would have up regulated, it would have reestablished the responsiveness.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Just like if I went out to the country for a couple of months and then I went back and slept under the subway, I wouldn't be able to sleep again because my brain would have up regulated again. So provided that you went back and had the same level of intensity of stimulation, you would have a toxic experience and you wouldn't want that thing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And I've experienced that with salty stuff. I stopped having salty soup. And then one day I decided I just give it a shot and I couldn't imagine how I ever got it in my body. So it can, but it depends upon a number of things.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that totally makes sense. I've definitely experienced that with salt as well. Salt's one where it's like very, at least for me, very telling, like, because I've gone through low carb keto periods where I was eating much higher salt and then cutting out the salt and then having it.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, whoa, I don't have, how in the world was I eating this? The sweet thing though, I don't know that Fun Fetti cake. It's always, it's always gonna call to me. Well, something I also love in the book.

Melanie Avalon:
And again, I will just prefer listeners to the book because there's so much we didn't even remotely touch on. So, you know, you talk about, like I said, the specific squeals and how to refute them. And those are the ones where I think people will really resonate and be like, okay, I've literally heard that exact phrase in my head.

Melanie Avalon:
And here's how you can, you know, combat it. You talk about how to, how you can use all of this to actually create healthy habits that you want. So kind of like hacking the, you know, the variety and the randomness and everything to make yourself crave healthy foods.

Melanie Avalon:
You really read the book. Oh yes, oh yes. Most definitely, I loved it. It was so great. So much, like I said, so much science. I loved all the updates. You have your ritual mantra, your 100% optional tool people can use that they can possibly integrate if it resonates with them.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's completely free. Get it now, freecravingsbook.com. Completely free.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Press the big blue button.

Melanie Avalon:
press the big blue button. Is there anything you want to talk about specifically before we go from the book for listeners?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
just because we went into depth so much about the science of cravings that it's how to say one more thing about it. It's helpful to understand that it was so important to be able to locate food sources, that the brain has the capacity to form a new craving, a new automation loop, from one particularly unexpected, rich, and delicious experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just gonna ask that. I'm glad you're talking about this. Yes.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I had a friend in my 30s, his name was Hank, and once we went out to a diner and he took a bite of a sandwich, I think it was. And he said, Oh, Glenn, I can't eat this. This is too good. And Glenn, if it's too good, then it's no good.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
That that was his understanding of how to avoid getting a craving. If he had something that was too delicious and unexpected, he knew his brain was going to start making him want to go to that diner all the time.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And so he decided right away that he wasn't going to do that. So if you find yourself having an unexpectedly delicious experience that you don't want, like I don't want to take anything away from you that you do want.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
But if you feel like it's going to be trouble, then make a rule for it right away. Don't don't let it take hold. On the other hand, you can use that phenomenon to crave the things that you want to crave.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So if you research a half dozen or a dozen recipes that are entirely on your plan, like one of my favorite things is this vegan, flowerless, you know, cheeseless lasagna. I got it from Dr. Furman. And you have like a half a dozen or a dozen of those things, and you rotate them through your diet.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
So you don't have them every day, or even every month, you allow, you know, allow yourself to wait for them. Then you're constantly having these unexpected, delicious experiences, and your mind will keep craving that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And it is an awful lot for the satisfaction on your plan. And that's one of the ways you can hack your brain to want the things you wanted to want to not want the things that you don't want it to want.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. I love it so much. So if somebody had that delicious experience where they're like, oh no, this could be a problem, what sort of rule would they create around that?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Well, let's say it was a particular sandwich. It could be very particular. I feel like I will only ever have a half of this particular sandwich at such and such restaurant with my spouse on the weekends, right?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Or maybe it's just so strong, they feel like they can't deal with it at all. And so they'll say, I won't ever do that. It's up to you and it's a matter of judgment. And I have to interview people about their experience with it to really know what to tell them about that.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I err towards conditional rules where you don't have to give things up entirely because people like more freedom than less, something like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I was going to say intuitively, I think the reason I really loved the binding concept is it's something I've historically done, like I would, without even realizing it, I would, especially when I was still fine tuning my diet and what I eat, I would say I could only have certain things on like a holiday and only on a holiday and not if it wasn't a holiday.

Melanie Avalon:
And then interestingly, the farther I got in life and time, then I didn't even want those things on the holiday. It's like the longer I went.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
A very common condition or rule people will make is, you know, I can have one serving at dinner, of any dinner I want, a one serving of dessert, of any dessert that I want on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
I know I know a lot of people that do that. It works out well.

Melanie Avalon:
I also like just to throw it out there. I like your ambiguity asset test. So basically, because people might make their rules a little bit too vague and then, you know, what does that really mean? And so what is your test?

Melanie Avalon:
If how many people followed you around?

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
You want your rules to be operationally defined so that 10 people following you around for a month would know whether you followed it or not. So you can't say, I'm going to avoid chocolate 90% of the time because probably by the end of the month people would be arguing about whether you did or you didn't.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Right? Or you especially you can't say I'm just going to avoid chocolate or I'll try not to eat chocolate. But you could say I'm only ever going to have chocolate on the last three days of the calendar month.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
And that would accomplish the same thing. But it's very, very specific so that there's no ambiguity for the pig to barrel through.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. Clear and specific.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
because you want it to function as a trip wire so you know the moment the pyrrhoxylmbran is awake.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny because one of my good friends who is a major fan of your work, she would experience something that you would talk about in your book that I never personally experienced, but she would talk about like getting into overeating and not even realizing what led to it.

Melanie Avalon:
Like for me, whenever I would have issues with overeating, I was very much aware going in like from the first bite, I was like, Oh no. But for her, she would say that she would just realize that she was, she would just like find herself overeating.

Melanie Avalon:
And I was like, a lot of people say that it's just so interesting to see how, you know, how different things manifest in different people's minds. And you address all of it with your books and with your clients.

Melanie Avalon:
So yes, free cravings book .com. I cannot recommend it enough. And friends, Glenn not only is he making this incredible work accessible to so many people and changing thousands of lives, but he's also one of my dearest friends.

Melanie Avalon:
And I genuinely mean this. Like, Glenn, you're just such a treasure and one of the most kind, empathetic, savvy, knowledgeable, funny, awesome, incredible human beings that I know. And I'm so grateful that we're friends and thank you for what you're doing.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Could you tell my dad that please? Sure. Thank you, Melanie. That's really sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I have enjoyed this so, so much. We'll have to have you back on the show. Maybe we can have you on the show in the future for a Q &A if you're open to it.

Dr. Glenn Livingston:
Absolutely, anytime. You tell me when.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, I think listeners would love that. So we'll have to do that. Okay, so again, the show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode356. There will be a full transcript there as well as links to everything that we talked about.

Melanie Avalon:
And I will see everybody next week and have a good rest of your day, Glenn. Thank you, dear. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intramission Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know! 

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 Subscribe For Updates HERE!

Welcome to Episode 355 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

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To submit your own questions, email questions@IFpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!! 

SHOW NOTES

Beautycounter: Keep your fast clean inside and out with safe skincare! Shop with us at melanieavalon.com/beautycounter and use the code CLEANFORALL20 for 20% off, plus something magical might happen after your first order! Find your perfect Beautycounter products with Melanie's quiz: melanieavalon.com/beautycounterquiz
Join Melanie's Facebook group Clean Beauty and Safe Skincare with Melanie Avalon to discuss and learn about all the things clean beauty, Beautycounter, and safe skincare!

LMNT: *NEW* LMNT Chocolate Medley is available! Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

AIRDOCTOR: Clean Your Air Of Pollutants, Viruses, Dust, And Other Toxins (Including 99.97% Of Covid) At An Incredible Price! For A Limited Time Shop At airdoctorpro.com With Coupon Code IFPODCAST, You Can Save Up To $300 Off Purifiers!

YUMMERS: Get 20% Off Sitewide AND A Free Sample Of Yummers NEW Dog Food At yummerspets.com/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST20!

Luca’s Keto Birthday Cake

Never Binge Again(tm): How Thousands of People Have Stopped Overeating and Binge Eating - and Stuck to the Diet of Their Choice!

Listener Q&A: Lori - Could you take a deep dive in the data that can be gained by smart scales ?

Episode 352: Special Guest: Dr. Valter Longo, Fasting Mimicking, Nutritional Science, Cellular Rejuvenation, Reproduction & Lifespan, Calorie Restriction, Autophagy And More!

Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition: Observational Study

Listener Q&A: Leslie - Does NMN break your fast?

Ion Layer: Get $100 off with the code melanieavalon at melanieavalon.com/ionlayer!

Our content does not constitute an attempt to practice medicine and does not establish a doctor-patient relationship. Please consult a qualified healthcare provider for medical advice and answers to personal health questions.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.) 

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 355 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Bannals. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for the Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
This is episode number 355 of the Intramurton Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi everyone. Vanessa, I have two things I wanna talk to you about. Okay. One is a story about pharmacies and compounding pharmacies and taking agency with your health.

Melanie Avalon:
And the other one is about birthdays. Which one should we do?

Vanessa Spina:
birthdays.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, because my birthday is approaching. By the time this comes out, it will be way in the past. But I'm super curious when you have like your birthday or you're celebrating anything in general. And we might have talked about this on the show before.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't think we have. Do you eat something celebratory that you wouldn't normally eat? Cause food is like such a big part of this show.

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely do, but these days I don't go that crazy for me. Like if I have it all my way, Pete and I will go to one of our favorite restaurants that's like, you know, elevated dining and I'll have an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's like what I want usually. So there's a couple places that in the city that we really love and that's usually what we do for my birthday. And one is like a French bistro and they have this incredible aged steaks that are absolutely amazing.

Vanessa Spina:
There's another one that's like right on the river and it's like super romantic and beautiful. And it's yeah, like we will splurge a little bit on those nights. But the food that I want is usually like an amazing steak.

Vanessa Spina:
Even though we have amazing steak at home too, it's just, you know, restaurants will have like amazing sauces with it and stuff like that. But I don't really do anything like sweet. Like I don't really get excited about anything like that.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh my goodness. I have so much.

Melanie Avalon:
many thoughts. Okay, one, elevated dining. That is such an interesting phrase. I've never heard it called that before.

Vanessa Spina:
I don't know where that came from. Oh, you just made that up. Yeah, I was just like, it's an elevated dining store. I was like, what is it? White tablecloth. Like fine dining? Yeah, but like we'll go to a place that has like, yeah, fine dining and, you know, they'll have like an amazing tenderline with like a hollandaise sauce or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's my treat. And similar with like the other place that we like to go. Or they'll have like an amazing truffle sauce or something like that. That's like really like a big indulgence, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, this is a complete tangent. I was just thinking, I'm so sorry. I was just thinking about you and Prague and these restaurants and how I want to go with you. Is Taylor Swift going on the Ares tour to Prague?

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know, but that would be amazing. Okay, because listen, if I go to Austin to record with Dave and then London for Thanksgiving and I get these travel skills, and if I maintain these travel skills, maybe I'll come to Prague.

Melanie Avalon:
If Taylor is going to Prague,

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that would be incredible. So is she doing an international tour now? Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. I was actually just talking last night with Rebecca Rudish, who I've had on the show, the founder of Yummers, who side note plug. I adore Yummers. If listeners want delicious pet food toppers for their dogs and cats, cannot recommend it enough.

Melanie Avalon:
Listeners can get 20% off, which is awesome at yummerspets.com/IFpodcast with the coupon code IFPodcast. I don't know if this will still be running, but they did have a special as well to get free dog food.

Melanie Avalon:
Side note, she's a dear friend of mine. My birthday is approaching. I just said that, which is why I'm talking about the birthdays, but we were talking about stuff to do and she was like, we should go see Taylor somewhere internationally.

Melanie Avalon:
So maybe I'll just like blend this all together into some magical adventure. Okay. And we're back. So Prague stakes.

Vanessa Spina:
What's your indulgence? Birthday.

Melanie Avalon:
I just love the food that I normally eat, but I love going, like you said, I love going to a really nice restaurant. I'm such a, I love like fine dining restaurant experiences or like thematic restaurants.

Melanie Avalon:
I just, I'm all about it. I love it. So kind of similar to you. I love going and I love getting like a multi course entree with multiple meat manifestations, meat and fish.

Vanessa Spina:
That's the most exciting part. I'm like, I don't really care about the dessert, to be honest. Like, I just want.

Melanie Avalon:
all the meats, bonus points, if you can get a different type of meat in multiple courses, like major bonus points. So if I can get like a shrimp cocktail, carpaccio, sashimi, a steak, and then maybe get one of the appetizers that I didn't have for dessert.

Melanie Avalon:
And I talk about this all the time, but I literally have gotten entrees as my dessert, which side note, Barry Conrad, who I've also, who we've also had on this show, who lives in Australia, we were talking, did you know that?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wait, actually, maybe in Prague, what is an entre? Oh, but it's a different link.

Vanessa Spina:
Like there's appetizer and then entree is the main meal. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's the way it is in the US. Apparently in Australia and other places, the entree is the appetizer.

Vanessa Spina:
I know I've heard this before and it's, that's what it means in French. You know, it's like the first dish, but yeah, I find it really confusing. Entree to me is like the main dish. But yeah, I also love like a big treat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I'm the same if I get like a surf and turf. So like steak with like a side of shrimp or I'll order, you know, a lot of steak houses, they'll have like sides and extras and things. We're definitely on the same page with that.

Vanessa Spina:
It's fun to get dressed up, you know, get a little glam on and, you know, go to your favorite restaurant. That's actually what we did for my most recent birthday. We went to our favorite restaurant on the water and I had like the best ever.

Vanessa Spina:
I had a tartare for api with like a truffle mousse and then a tenderloin with like an amazing hollandaise and, you know, had some, some greens with it or something. And it was, it was incredible. I was just so satisfied.

Vanessa Spina:
Sometimes I'll get like a cheese, like a cheese plate or something like that. If I really want dessert, but most of the time I'm fine. And then if I, we get home and I still like want something, I'll make like some kind of yogurt, something like that.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm just happy with that.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so great. I'm normally torn between fish and steak, so that's why I really like getting two entrees.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and also if like sometimes you can get to and like share it's fun too. But yeah, I'm, I'm all about it. The sake and the seafood too. It's so.

Melanie Avalon:
good. I used to, like, because I do, it just speaks to me like birthday cake. It really does. Like that, it's just something, it's overwhelmingly lights up my dopamine centers. Like the concept of, you know, unless there's no this like fun, fatty cake or birthday cake.

Melanie Avalon:
So I used to get keto versions online and sort of make like these sugar -free versions, which honestly taste amazing to me and taste very similar because I haven't had real sugar in eons. But it's just too much of a slippery slope for me.

Melanie Avalon:
I think some people are moderationists and some people are like extremists and I'm an extremist and I would just rather not have that than have a little bit.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, same. I find it is a little bit different now. So when I make Luca's birthday cake, I make it with all the sugar -free icing and the sugar -free sprinkles and all that. And I'll have a piece. And usually when it's, I know it's like, we still have it.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm aware of it. I'm aware that there's cake in the fridge. Not a feeling I normally have. And then, you know, I'll usually like, just basically, I'll have like a piece maybe the next day and then I'll just like cut it off because I don't want to like keep having it every night.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like it should be that for that special occasion. And it's a same. I noticed like when I, we were in the U .S. when I was pregnant with Luca, I tried out some of those keto ice creams because I'd never tried them.

Vanessa Spina:
And I was like aware that they were in the fridge. Like when I walked by the kitchen, like it was like, they were like, hello, like where are we in there? And I was like, why am I aware of this? Like I don't have that feeling normally.

Vanessa Spina:
And I way prefer to just not like, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to waste mental energy thinking about something or being like, oh, I'm going to have that later. Like I just don't like that feeling.

Vanessa Spina:
I prefer to just not have it at all. And just like enjoy a tea after dinner or something like that that just works for me now. And yeah, I'm an obscener for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I've read about that. It's a very real psychological thing. So like if your brain, I totally read about it. So if your brain knows the potential of this thing that it wants is there, it doesn't forget.

Melanie Avalon:
It like keeps it very present until it's no longer an option. It talks to you like, hello, I mean, when you're so that's why it can be so important, especially if people are starting like intermittent fasting, for example, and they think they're going to be tempted by certain things to get it out of the house.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it doesn't matter if it's like closed and in the pantry, like it needs to not be accessible because it's not about you and your willpower so much as what I just said that your brain, as long as it's there, your brain's going to be wanting it.

Melanie Avalon:
And then once it's gone, it won't.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, and it's gonna drain your willpower. I remember reading about that too with like, if you work in an office and someone has like a bowl of M &Ms or whatever your favorite, for me it would be like hard candy.

Vanessa Spina:
If someone had like a bowl of hard candy or something at the front, like that you suck on, like do you remember like nerds or rents or things like that? Like I love those like the fruit shaped ones. If someone had a bowl of that or if I had, what was your favorite runt?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I love the red ones and the banana. The banana was magical. And nerds, I loved also like, if I had to walk by a bowl of that, like an open accessible bowl of that every day, it would drain so much of my willpower.

Vanessa Spina:
But like I haven't thought about rents in like five years, you know, because like they're just not in my environment. Like, and it's such a good point you bring up, like just having it there, it's draining and it does take up your willpower and it does take up mental energy that you could use for more productive things, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Laffy taffy. Did you ever have Laffy taffy? I remember it though. So good. They had this version called tanky taffy. And it was like the, it was like a massive version of the Laffy taffy, but they had this watermelon one with like watermelon seeds.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, so good. Comment though about the fasting. So I think a way that fasting is sort of a hack on this. I still think get the stuff out of the house. What's so amazing with willpower and fasting is that when you, you get this window and then you no longer have this debate with yourself about to eat or not to eat.

Melanie Avalon:
Cause like, if you're not doing intermittent fasting and you're dieting, it's like, do I eat this? Do I not eat this? Do I eat some more? Do I not eat some more? Like it's like that constantly, which is exhausting.

Melanie Avalon:
But with fasting, it's like, okay, not my window. So then you don't have to like think about

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, I call it the noise. Like it's just like sort of in the background noise or this like distraction that's there. And when you cut it out, it's like a laser. Like you can just focus so much more on what you want to focus on and just take that out of the equation.

Vanessa Spina:
And I think that's probably the biggest thing for me with intermittent fasting is just having that having that framework that it just like, I don't know. I think maybe some people thrive on it more than others.

Vanessa Spina:
You know, some people, if you're not an obscener, if you're a moderator, then I wonder it would be really interesting to see if obsceners gravitate more to intermittent fasting, I would bet that they do.

Vanessa Spina:
Whereas moderators, you know, don't gravitate as much to this kind of lifestyle. That's so yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I bet. And also a bit of encouragement. I think a lot of people will use the clear out the kitchen thing as like the, oh, this is the last time to like eat all the things. I think it can be a spiral where people think they need to like get rid of all the things and eat all of the things.

Melanie Avalon:
There's like this idea, especially like, and I think we will have recently had Glenn Livingston on the, oh, so next episode, perfect timing. Next episode should be with Glenn Livingston. He wrote the book, Never Binge Again, which it's not just about binging.

Melanie Avalon:
It's really about anybody who's struggling with what he calls like the inner pig, which is like this voice that like wants the things. He's amazing for dealing with the psychology of dealing with your food cravings and choices and such.

Melanie Avalon:
But one of the things he does talk about is like all the excuses that this, this pig voice in your head will make about eating and like how one of them is like, oh, this is like the last time, you know, like I'll just eat all these and this will be like the last time when really it's, it's not, that's just like a lie.

Melanie Avalon:
Like it just like, it just lies to you, this voice. So don't listen to it. His solution is basically don't argue. So like when you have this voice in your head that's like, you know, wanting you to, to break your diet rules that you came up with.

Melanie Avalon:
And I don't want to make this sound like overly restrictive or, or disordered or anything like that. But, but basically you have a healthy plan that you've set out to do a diet, fasting, whatever it may be.

Melanie Avalon:
And if you're struggling with this voice in your head that is trying to get you to not engage in that pattern that you believe will be healthy for you and that you would like to do, his solution is you don't argue with it.

Melanie Avalon:
You don't debate with it. You just like don't listen to it. It sounds really simple, but it can be life changing. Basically like you, you isolate it as like the pig voice and you just don't listen to it.

Melanie Avalon:
So check out next week's episode. I think it'd be very helpful for people. Okay. Yes. Next time we talk, I will tell you my crazy story about the compounding pharmacy. Okay. Sounds good. It's crazy. People have you just as a teaser, how do I say this?

Melanie Avalon:
Like, how do I say this? Have you ever had an experience where you are smart and intelligent and have information and know what you're doing and you're just being completely talked down to by somebody who believes they're in a power of position?

Melanie Avalon:
This happened to me with a compounding pharmacy and it's a crazy story. So teaser. Okay. Anything from you before we jump in the questions?

Vanessa Spina:
Can I share something I'm really excited about? Oh yes, please do. It has to do with red light therapy and something new that I'm launching, but I just, I'm so, I'm just buzzing about it because I've been working on it all week.

Vanessa Spina:
So, you know, I use the red light therapy panels. I'm starting to embrace the cold more because it helps activate more brown fat, generate more brown fat. And I also, I'm using my red light therapy panels more these days because it's getting colder outside and I'm not outside all day.

Vanessa Spina:
Before I was getting red light at sunrise and all throughout the day and then in the evening, I'm not anymore because the seasons are changing. So, I brought out all my red light therapy panels. They're all in the bathroom and around the house because my husband and I both use them.

Vanessa Spina:
But one thing that I was noticing is I wasn't doing my face protocol or my face treatment as much and it's because I'm usually with Luca and that's my two year old toddler. And he, you know, he doesn't want me to be like holding this red light therapy panel in front of my face.

Vanessa Spina:
He wants me to play with him and play with his choo choo train or make, you know, Play -Doh butterflies or whatever we're doing. So, I realized that I should use the red light therapy masks because I, a year ago, I customized a couple of them because I was gonna launch them as a product.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been so busy with other stuff that I kind of like left them on the shelf. So, I started, you know, I pulled them out, I started wearing them like, this is amazing. I can get a full red light therapy session on my face while I'm still playing with Luca.

Vanessa Spina:
Like he doesn't care that I have a mask on and he actually likes it. He likes like playing with the remote and changing the colors on me. But I can get a full session in and I have my hands free. And, you know what?

Vanessa Spina:
When usually you're doing a face treatment, your eyes are closed because you're not gonna like stare into these powerful lights unless you're specifically doing that for like an eye treatment. Usually your eyes are closed and you can't really do much, right?

Vanessa Spina:
But with the mask, like you've got your hands free, you can see things, you can like watch things, you can read things, you can just interact normally. So, it's like the ultimate multitasking. So, then I posted about it as a kind of a joke for Halloween and I was like, this is my Halloween mask.

Vanessa Spina:
And so many people in my community and like listeners of the podcast were like, this is amazing, I want one, like can I order one? Just like, okay, let's do this. So, I've been having so much fun creating the new mask.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I've created the new Tonelux Crystal red light therapy mask and it is amazing and it's so easy to use. You just like put it on, strap it on your face and then you can set the program on the remote to, there's all kinds of different programs, but set it on and just relax.

Vanessa Spina:
Like you can, if you don't have a toddler that you're playing with, you can lay in bed and relax. You can read a book, you know, you can watch a show, you can listen to podcasts and, you know, it's just the ultimate multitasking.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I'm super excited about it and it's an amazing product and I've just been having so much fun doing like the box design, working on the box design, the manual and customizing like the bag, there's like a travel bag with it that goes with it and all the stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
So, I just been buzzing because as we've talked about so many times before, like this is the most fun part of like creating products is like actually creating the designs and the customization and also just because so many people are excited about the masks, I think they'll be a really fun like Christmas gift and just something awesome that people can use and there's just so much interest in the masks, it's really, really exciting.

Vanessa Spina:
So, that's my latest update.

Melanie Avalon:
A while ago, the closest thing I've been using to this was Saluma. Do you know that brand? I don't know. They make a, it's basically like a dome and when you're laying down, you set it over your head so you can't be moving around with it like this.

Melanie Avalon:
I would go in the infrared sauna and I would lay down and I would put it over my head and it would do red light and it also had near infrared and blue light as well for acne, which you said, you changed the colors on it.

Melanie Avalon:
So is it red light and other lights as well on yours? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's got four wavelengths in it, and it has these programs. So you can have it go between the main light. So it's got a 630 nanometer red light. It's got a 590 nanometer. It's actually orange light, but it's in the red light family.

Vanessa Spina:
And then it has two 830 and 850 nanometer for near infrared. And so it has these programs where it'll do like five minutes of each, or you can just create your own program or set it to how you want. Or you could just have it be on red light the whole time or in a combination and you can set the time and all of that.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, those are the main wavelengths in it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I've been, like I said, I was using that sluma wine and I've been wanting to get something like that for when I was laying down in the sauna. But the issue with that, what I liked about it was it wasn't actually touching your skin.

Melanie Avalon:
So, does this actually touch your skin or does it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it goes on your face. Like it goes, it's like any other mask, but it's made of silicone, so it's quite comfortable. Oh, cool.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that you can see and you can breathe through it and looking at the pictures and see through it. This is so cool.

Vanessa Spina:
that. I was testing another one, which was like, they call it the Iron Man mask, and it's a full, like it's gold, and it's a full mask. And at first I thought that I was going to like that one more. But when I had it on, I just felt like I couldn't breathe.

Vanessa Spina:
I just didn't feel good. Whereas this one, the silicone one is like so light and easy to wear that, you know, you can put it on and you can still like breathe normally, you can still see normally, you know, and it's got to be comfortable if you're going to, you know, do it.

Vanessa Spina:
And you only have to do it three, four times a week, like 10 minutes, or you can do longer ones if you want like 15 to 25. But I'm just so excited that I can get back on track with my red light therapy sessions, because it's so amazing for boosting collagen and elastin factors and just improving, you know, overall skin health.

Vanessa Spina:
And I just like had kind of stopped because it was too hard, you know, to do it with Luke and then for a while I would like wait until he would go to bed and then I would do it like at night and that's not optimal either.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's, it's just, you know, great to have your hands free and your eyes free and still be able to do other things.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so cool. So how does it attach behind it?

Vanessa Spina:
to you? It's got actually three straps. So each strap is like on each side, and then it attaches in the back. And then there's another one on the top, which goes and attaches to those two. So it's quite secure.

Vanessa Spina:
And yeah, it's just like Velcro straps. And you designed this? Yeah, I mean, the like the, the one that hit the one that is on my Instagram that I think you're looking at is actually not the one that we are doing, but it's a newer model.

Vanessa Spina:
That was like an older model that I had that I was just like testing out. And then I was like, okay, I want to go with this. But it's a newer model that features the infrared as well, which is what I was kind of waiting for.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, really, I'm so excited about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Is it on the website now?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, yeah, if you go to ketogenic girl, I just was setting that up today. Yeah. And we're still working on the design as of today. I might do a fuller like print on the face and everything. This is so.

Melanie Avalon:
Cool. Yeah, this would be an amazing gift for people. People don't talk about the orange light.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's interesting. So my SAFAR panel, which has four wavelengths of light also, one of the wavelengths is also orange, and it has some other benefits, like for the skin. I think it complements the red.

Vanessa Spina:
And some of the masks that they have, they have every wavelength. They've got all the colors, because apparently they do different things. But not all of them are things, I think, that people would be interested in.

Vanessa Spina:
Some of them are skin whitening. I'm like, it's not something that I'm interested in. What light does that? I think it's cyan.

Melanie Avalon:
How interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so all the wavelengths have different properties to them. But red light therapy obviously has all the really well -documented benefits. So I don't think there's as much research behind the other ones.

Vanessa Spina:
But yeah, there are some masks you can get that have all kinds of different colors in them.

Melanie Avalon:
Like I said, the one I was using did the red near and front and then the blue for the acne, which I could see that being the blue being really helpful for people if they have acne.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, that's a sign, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, well, super cool. So what's the link for people to get this? Thank you.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, they can check it out at ketogenicirl.com if they just navigate to the website and then look up the Tone Luxe Red Light Therapy. There's basically just two things on the website. That's the, you know, the tone, breath ketone meters and the tone red light therapy.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, it's right under there if you want to check it out there.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Yeah, that would make a great gift for people. Although by the time this comes out, it will be past the holidays, but always giving gifts to people. So, do you, that's a question. Do you, for like Christmas and things like that, do you get presents throughout the year or do you wait until right before?

Vanessa Spina:
Christmas shopping, I usually do, like I probably should start now, but I usually do it around Christmas time. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm pretty intense. I'm like looking all year. I'm like, gift giving is my love language, so I'm really intense about it. And I got a fact check this. My mom, I think, said this year that we're quote, not doing presents or something.

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, wait, what? I understand not wanting to feel the need to like have to spend a lot of money on people, but I really express love through giving gifts. So even if we're not doing gifts,

Vanessa Spina:
My brother is also gifts, his love language. Ever since we were a kid, he would get so excited about Christmas gifts and he still does. Like giving them? Giving them, receiving them, it's definitely his love language and it's really cute how excited he gets about it.

Vanessa Spina:
So it's like, you know, you have to get Matt something really thoughtful because it's his love language. You really want him to feel loved. So it's like, yeah, it's so cute.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, what's funny is it's my giving, but it's not my receiving. So, words of affirmation. Yeah. Lights me up. How about you? Do you know yours?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, some mine are words of affirmation and affection. Receiving or for both? I think giving is affection and then words of affirmation and receiving. Affection and physical touch, you mean? Yes, and receiving is words of affirmation and then physical touch.

Vanessa Spina:
That when my husband and I were dating, we realized we had really different ones. Oh, what are his? So we both have affection as a main one, but his number one way of showing love is acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
And for me, it wasn't even on my radar. We had to learn each other's because obviously the first couple of years you're together, you're just on this dopamine high and everything is amazing and you feel loved and you shower each other with so much of everything, affection, words, all that stuff.

Vanessa Spina:
But it took me a long time to realize that he was doing things for me. He would carry my suitcase for me and that was his way of showing me. He's taking care of me, protecting me, loving me. But I didn't feel love through it for a long time and we had to learn each other's.

Vanessa Spina:
So I had to learn how to show him love through acts of service, which was not in my vocabulary. So it's really cool and you understand each other's and you kind of have to learn them. And he's had to learn to be more expressive with words of affirmation because it's not one on his radar.

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I have to kind of learn how you both are wired to make sure the other person feels loved all the time.

Melanie Avalon:
I think it's so important. It should be mandatory, because there are so many different quizzes out there and profiles and compatibility reports, but this one is pretty, I don't know, I think it would benefit everybody to know they're giving and receiving and their partner's giving and receiving.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, it's huge. It's really huge. You want to be, obviously it's great if you can be the same. And I'm glad my husband, I have one in common. But if we didn't know that about each other and we didn't learn each other's, then I don't think we would feel loved.

Vanessa Spina:
And it's just, it's critically important. I think a lot of people are aware now about love languages and they're so accurate. It's really amazing. So yours expressing is the gifts.

Melanie Avalon:
gifts, yeah, and then the receiving is words of affirmation.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think also women tend to have words more often and men tend to have acts of service more often. Like it's interesting to see, I see that pattern come up. Like and men are often more like action oriented and women are more words like when it comes to relationships but that's not saying that's everyone but I've just noticed that a lot.

Melanie Avalon:
I've noticed that as well. The other one I guess we're leaving out is time. Quality time. Yeah, so quality time, physical touch, words of affirmation, acts of service.

Vanessa Spina:
quality time I know and

Melanie Avalon:
Oh gifts and gifts. Is that all of them? I think there's five. Yeah. So gifts, time, access service, words of affirmation, and touch. Yeah. Which my like anti one, are any of those anti ones for you?

Melanie Avalon:
Because like I don't like

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not big on gifts. I don't like it. I always tell people, don't buy me anything, just write me something. But, you know, of course, if he gives me a gift, I'm like, okay, that's really nice. But I'm like the person who's like, let's not do gifts this year, guys.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so you're like my mom. And I'm like, wait a minute. When you said that?

Vanessa Spina:
I was laughing like every year. I'm like, I think my mom is actually maybe gifts too. So every year I'm like, can we not do gifts this year? My mom's like, no. And my brother also, right? So yeah, I don't usually win.

Vanessa Spina:
I've never won that we always end up doing gifts. And it's fine. Like once I get into it, I'm like, okay, this is fun. But I have moments where I get, I feel like it's being pushed on us. Like you have to give gifts to your loved ones or you don't love them.

Vanessa Spina:
Like I get this feeling like this commercialization of the holiday that I don't like. You know, I'd rather just give a gift because I saw something spontaneously and it made me think of that person. But you know, once you get into it, you're like, okay, it's fine.

Vanessa Spina:
And it definitely would feel really weird a Christmas morning to like not open anything or do anything. So the last few years I've asked for donations to things cause that like feels like a more, a less commercialized gift.

Melanie Avalon:
my experience of it is it's the way I show, the way I can show love because it's like, I have to really know the person. And then I like take the time to think about like, what would they like, what is like perfect for them?

Melanie Avalon:
So it's like me, it's kind of like, it's not an active service, but it's me like doing this thing to like show how much I like care about you and want to like give you this thing that represents that in a way.

Melanie Avalon:
I totally get it. It totally makes sense. So my mom though gives really good gifts. She goes, yeah, she finds stuff like, like so unique and special. I'm like, where did that come from? So yeah, she's sweet.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, on that note, shall we answer some listener questions? Yes, I would love to. Okay, doke, would you like to read the first question from Lori?

Vanessa Spina:
So, Lori on Facebook asks, could you take a deep dive into the data that can be gained by smart skills? I have a GE fit profile and I really like it. I'm wondering what the healthy target ranges are for visceral fat, bone mass, muscle mass, dot, dot, dot.

Vanessa Spina:
I have found the information fascinating. I am a 54 -year -old perimenopausal woman who practices one to two 36 to 42 hour fasts a week. I have a protein forward diet getting on average 100 grams a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to learn more. I'm interested to see if my muscle mass and my fat -free mass changes much after the fasts and if they go down. Trends over time show things are really about the same and I think I am at a plateau.

Vanessa Spina:
I would like to get rid of some more fat in my thighs but my belly fat is mostly all gone. I fluctuate between mostly a four sometimes a five on visceral fat. My bone mass isn't budging staying at 6 .2 but I never had a DEXA scan.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm not sure what the 6 .2 means or if it is low or good. I would love to hear what you can find out.

Melanie Avalon:
All right, Lori, thank you so much for your question. And this made me remember something that we did not discuss the episode before last, where we were talking about Valter Longo, which I will put a link to that episode in the show notes, which was ipodcast.com/episode352.

Melanie Avalon:
I asked him about the fasting mimicking diets effects on muscle loss. And he said in their studies, they found that basically there was a transient muscle loss from the five day fasting mimicking diet, but it all came back within a day, which was interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. It all came back within a day. So basically they were, I have to double check what he said exactly, but basically there wasn't any long term muscle loss from the fasting mimicking diet.

Melanie Avalon:
So that's super low calorie, low protein, five days. That there was transient, but he said it came back after the study. And then after they stopped. And so I asked him, how long did it take to come back?

Melanie Avalon:
And he said it was 24 hours. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So, yes, actually just released an episode on my podcast yesterday where we were talking about this because Dr. Bill Campbell, who's a physique scientist in Florida, he actually just changed his opinion on rapid fat loss protocols because he just did one in his lab and he found that what was happening is they weren't measuring total body water and that a lot of times these studies were showing that rapid fat loss protocols were actually causing a huge loss in lean body mass, but within two weeks it would come back and it was actually water and because our muscles store the most water in the body and that's one of the ways that you can actually game the system if you're doing like a dexa scan.

Vanessa Spina:
If you chug like a gallon of water before having a body, a dexa scan, it'll look like you added 10 or 20 pounds of muscle mass and it's because the dexa is just measuring the dry mass so water can conflate the lean body mass measurements.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. And I think so. I think that's huge. I'll have to, I want to fact check if he said it was 24 hours that it came back, but it was relatively short. And I would need to check, he made it sound like they were checking the difference between, you know, body composition.

Melanie Avalon:
But I would need to read the actual studies, which speaks into this whole question about the scale and measuring all of these different things because it can get so convoluted, like Vanessa was just saying, especially because of the role of water.

Melanie Avalon:
So the way these smart scales work, they use something called bioelectrical impedance analysis, or it's also called bioimpedance analysis, BIA. And basically what it does is you have your feet on the scale, it puts a current, a not harmful current.

Melanie Avalon:
But if you have a pacemaker, they do recommend that you, you know, speak to a doctor or it could interfere with pacemakers. The current runs up one leg through your torso, and then down the other leg.

Melanie Avalon:
And then because of the way this electrical current travels through water versus fatty tissue versus muscle, it guesstimates, it guesses based on the level of resistance, how much water, fat and muscle you have.

Melanie Avalon:
And there are just so many potential issues here. So basically I did find a study, it was 2021, it was called Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition, an Observational Study. It did not look at the scale that Laurie was using, the GE fit profile, but all these scales are essentially using the same technology.

Melanie Avalon:
And so they looked at three scales, they looked at the body partner by Tefal, the diet pack by Torellion and the body cardio by Nokia withings. They found that all of the scales, oh, and then they compare, basically they did the, they weighed the people and they compared it to Dexa scan, which I have comments on Dexa as well.

Melanie Avalon:
They found that all of them were accurate for weight. So just your basic weight were accurate. However, fat and muscle were not accurate, like at all. So fat mass was off, and this isn't kilograms, but was off by between 2 .2 to 3 .7 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
And the negative, so basically it said that they weighed, they had less fat than they did. So it was underestimated. And then for muscle mass, it was off by 4 .5 pounds. So in the positive, negative 6 .6 pounds.

Melanie Avalon:
So negative saying they had less than they did and four pounds. So saying they had more than they did. So all over the place. And their conclusion was that this technology and smart skills is not accurate for determining muscle and fat, but the scales are probably accurate for weight, like just weight.

Melanie Avalon:
And so a lot of factors, and there are a lot of reasons for that. There's a lot of factors that can influence just the system. So your body setup, your feet, where your feet are on the scale, whether you're standing up straight or not, the current isn't even like measuring upper body.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's kind of extrapolating from there. It's just not, and her question says that it's measuring visceral fat. Specifically, I have no idea how it thinks it's figuring that out. Like that's something that I don't think even Dexa shows that.

Melanie Avalon:
You'd have to have an ultrasound. Yeah. So that, no, it's it, no. And then bone mass, again, I don't know how it would be determining that. And something that's interesting. So Dexa scan is what is used for bone mass.

Melanie Avalon:
But I talked with Gabrielle Lyon about using Dexa for muscle. She doesn't even think that it Dexa is super valid for measuring muscle mass. She recommends deuterated creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, which you ingest, I guess, and then measure after.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. She says DEXA, I'm just quoting from the transcript that I had with her. She says, it's not a direct measure of skeletal muscle mass. It's an extrapolation. It's directly measuring body fat and it is looking at bone.

Melanie Avalon:
The rest is extrapolated. So if we're comparing this to the scale, for example, so scale is basically getting your weight and then the smart skills, getting your weight and then using this current to kind of guess at things based on a level of persistence.

Melanie Avalon:
But it's just not accurate, probably compared to DEXA, which is accurate for body fat. So it is actually giving you body fat. It is actually giving you bone. But then the muscle mass, it's extrapolating.

Melanie Avalon:
It's not actually measuring muscle mass. And that goes back to what Vanessa was saying, like the amount of water you have, your hydration levels can all affect that. So she says that the way of the future is deuterated creatine, which is actually tagging skeletal muscle, looking at the creatine, because creatine is found in skeletal muscle, and then that's going to be the way to really get an accurate picture of muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
So all of that to say, Lori, I wouldn't make any recommendations about the scale because you just can't know if it's accurate. I wouldn't look at it. What are your thoughts, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So my, I love everything that you shared about it. I am not a big fan of these kinds of scales because I just don't think the technology is there yet. I think they can be used for trends. And some people, like I know, physique competitors will use them to assess their body fat at home and they'll look at the trends.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do think, as you said, they could be accurate for weight. In terms of body composition, I'm a big fan of Dexabody scans. They are the gold standard of what we have now. And I know what we were talking about with the D3 creatine.

Vanessa Spina:
It's coming. It's just not there yet. And I would be interested to try it for sure myself and, you know, potentially recommend it. If it's, if it's something that turns out great. I was actually talking to Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Bill Campbell about this yesterday or on the episode that came out yesterday because, you know, I was asking him about these different methodologies. So they have a physique lab and mostly what they study is his fat loss.

Vanessa Spina:
And so they use ultrasound often for that, even, which is like they have one in their lab, which is amazing. He loves Dexa. Like he thinks it's fantastic. And I agree with him. I know it can be manipulated, but for the most part, I do think it gives us the best picture out of the options that we currently have.

Vanessa Spina:
And I'm sure better options are coming, but I found it to be very accurate when I myself go for scans, when I recommend scans to other people. And it can even show you, you know, where your fat is, you know, where you carry it, you know, exactly how much you have in different parts of your body.

Vanessa Spina:
You can learn exactly how much pounds of fat, fat mass you have on your body. You can also, you know, learn your resting metabolic rate from it and your bone density. So I have no idea how a smart scale is purporting to be able to analyze bone density or visceral fat.

Vanessa Spina:
Like that's just not possible. So I wouldn't put much weight on that at all. I would just use it for trends, possibly with your body fat. You could look at, you know, what the trends are. Does it look like it's going up or going down?

Vanessa Spina:
And I do think the technology is coming. I've seen some different models of this on the at home smart scales where they basically would have these like wands that surround you and scan your body. You know, so that is like more like a dexter, right?

Vanessa Spina:
That that makes sense to me that it could give you accurate information in your home. But in terms of like even bioimpedance, air displacement, the pod pods, I'm not as much a big fan of those. But Dr.

Vanessa Spina:
Campbell says, if you're using one method, whatever it is, just make sure you control the conditions and use the same method when you're doing the before and afters. So yeah, I unfortunately, I just don't think that any at home skills right now have the technology that that'll really give you the accuracy.

Melanie Avalon:
And even with the DEXA, I think it can be important to make sure that you go in in the same sort of conditions when you get it, because the water can influence that a little bit as well, like with the muscles specifically.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And a nice thing about DEXA as well is it's pretty low on the EMF, or sorry, on the radiation exposure compared to other potential things. So I think that information gained from it is very valuable.

Melanie Avalon:
That's great. No, yeah. So, I mean, it's not minimal. I mean, it's not, you know, non -existent, but it is relatively low. Shall we answer one more question? Yes, I would love to. All right. So, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
So we have a question from Leslie, also from Facebook about does NMN break your fast? And I have a lot of thoughts on this, but Vanessa, have you played around with NMN?

Vanessa Spina:
So I have some in my fridge and I haven't actually taken it yet, probably partly because I'm pregnant, but also because it's really hard to know how effective NMN is, you know, because we'll never really have the data in humans, you know, to see whether or not it really does affect our longevity.

Vanessa Spina:
But I do have some, but I do not believe it breaks so fast. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So if it's pure NMN, it shouldn't break the fast. I'll be curious how it goes in the future, because it's in a gray zone right now with the FDA in the US as of this recording. I was actually going to release an NMN and then it became a whole thing, which is, and I think the reasoning behind it is because pharmaceutical companies potentially want to, you know, patent it, which I will not go in that soapbox.

Melanie Avalon:
But in any case, no, it should not break your fast. I do take a pure powder form of it at present. I will say that, so NMN, just briefly, it's a precursor, stands for nicotinamide mononucleotide. It's a precursor to NAD, which is a master coenzyme in our body involved in all of our metabolic processes.

Melanie Avalon:
So important for health and it gets depleted with things like aging and stress and sickness and boosting your NAD levels can be really good for health and longevity. And since NMN is a precursor to NAD, that's why people take it.

Melanie Avalon:
You can also get NAD straight as an IV or an intramuscular injection. I was doing those for a while. There needs to be more research, but theoretically, I'm pretty, I find the studies pretty compelling.

Melanie Avalon:
And I have some good friends in the sphere who believe in it a lot, like James Clement, who I really love. The thing about those is your mileage may vary, but for me, they A, they're very expensive and B, they always make me feel a little bit sick, which is like, it's like a lot of money to spend to not feel very well, but it's temporary.

Melanie Avalon:
It's only like 10 minutes that you don't feel well. But for me, I do not feel well after those injections, even though I know the long -term benefits are probably there. I did get really excited recently because I found a new brand that makes NAD patches and I am obsessed.

Melanie Avalon:
So out of all the options, like the NMN, the NR, which is another precursor to NAD, the IV is the injections. My favorite now is the NAD patches. Friends, this has changed my life because it gives you the access to putting NAD into your bloodstream, but it's transdermal.

Melanie Avalon:
And you have it at home. I made a video recently on Instagram about how to put on the patches, because you have to activate the NAD and you pour it on this patch and there's like saline solution. It's like a whole thing.

Melanie Avalon:
It's easy to do once you learn how to do it. They last for 14 hours, and then you can just have them at home and use them when you need. So I'm basically, because I usually go out once a week, so I'm kind of using them once a week the day after going out to boost my NAD levels after a night out on the town.

Melanie Avalon:
So I love them. They're called Ion Layer. And if you go to Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer and use the code MelanieAvalon, you get $100 off, which is crazy. So that's Melanieavalon.com/ionlayer with the code MelanieAvalon for $100 off.

Melanie Avalon:
But yes, to recap, NMN should not break your fast, NR should not break your fast. I like supporting NAD levels and my favorite now are NAD patches. Okay. Anything from you Vanessa, before we wrap up this episode?

Vanessa Spina:
episode. I had so much fun with you. I love the questions. As always, keep them coming and I can't wait for the next one. Me too. I had a lot of fun.

Melanie Avalon:
But so, so much fun for listeners. If you'd like to submit your own questions to the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there.

Melanie Avalon:
These show notes will have links to everything that we talked about, like those studies, and those will be at ifpodcast.com/episode355. And you can get all the stuff that we like at ifpodcast.com/stuffwelike.

Melanie Avalon:
And you can follow us on Instagram where I have podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl. And I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I just had so much fun. Yeah, just love getting to talk about all these topics with you. And I can't wait for the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Likewise, I will... talk to you in the future. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intimation Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

BUY:
Melanie's What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine
Vanessa's Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight 
The Tone Device Breath Ketone Analyzer

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast

The Optimal Protein Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com 

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!