The Intermittent Fasting Podcast

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Aug 04

Episode 381: Cognitive Health, Alzheimer’s Disease, Insulin Resistance, Amyloid Plaque, Diabetes, MCT Oil, Exogenous Ketones, BDNF, And More!

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The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #256 - Max Lugavere

Welcome to Episode 381 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

BUTCHERBOX: Grass-fed beef, organic chicken, heritage pork, wild-caught seafood, nutrient-rich, raised sustainably the way nature intended, and shipped straight to your door! For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get ground chicken, ground sirloin, or ground pork—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get ground chicken, ground sirloin, or ground pork—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!SEED:

Listener Q&A: Kel - I would be very interested in learning about what lengths of fasting help reduce the risk of Alzheimer’s.

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #252 - Nathan Price, PhD and Leroy Hood, MD, PhD

Effects of intermittent fasting on cognitive health and Alzheimer’s disease

Boost brain health and slow mental aging with 10 intriguing tips from longevity experts

Listener Q&A: Michele - Do you girls know anything about Mody diabetes?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 381 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody. and welcome. This is episode number 381 of the Intermerge in Fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, we've been really having a great summer so far. We went to the lake last week, which is down south. And it was so much fun just to take. We were only there for like Sunday to Wednesday, but it was such a nice break out of the city. We did tons of swimming. Luca got to go on this. There's this like bobsled thing. It's like it's kind of like a race car on a track. And he got to do it with his dad and I and like sitting on Pete's lap in front of him and then also with me. And you kind of go through this like coaster and they just have all these fun like hikes and everything. It was so much fun just being there together. It's been sort of the highlight of our summer so far. So it was really, really nice. And yeah, I'm just happy it's summer and it's gorgeous out. And it's actually light out. Like now it's 8 30 in Prague looking outside. It looks like 4 p .m. or something. So that's really nice too when we're podcasting together. So I also appreciate the late long days. When does it get like dark there? Like in the winter, it's very dark. Like it'll get dark around like 4 30. During the summer though? In the summer. Oh, it doesn't get dark until like 10. And then it's light again at like four. Wow.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, we did make it to the summer solstice, which I loved that day. Do you know why?

Vanessa Spina:
We love it too. We think it should be a holiday. We always celebrate it, but why do you?

Melanie Avalon:
Because every day after that is shorter. It's like you made it to the top of the hill and then it's like downward coasting.

Vanessa Spina:
you prefer that the darkness? Yeah, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
I didn't realize until this year, I felt so not intelligent, that I didn't realize the seasons are based on the sun. I thought it was the same day every year. I thought summer was the same day every year. I just learned it's based on the sun and changes.

Vanessa Spina:
So it changes every year based on like the sun cycles, the summer solstice. Yeah, I kind of knew that just because my husband's like all the seasons are like that.

Melanie Avalon:
Who knew it kind of moves around but yeah, I was telling you on Instagram. I love I love when you have your stories of all Your adventures with your family. I love watching them Everybody's so like cute and happy and you're always doing adventures and makes me feel good Everybody watch Vanessa's stories or do you post them on your on your private? No. Yeah, that's a private Well apply for friendship And then watch

Vanessa Spina:
her stories. Yeah, I don't really put the kids much on the public stuff because it's more like my work and stuff. But I do post things here and there. Well, I do love I love your stories. Thank you. How's your summer going so far?

Melanie Avalon:
It's going well, it is summer, it is hot. There was something I told you I wanted to talk about on the show. So we work with a lot of sponsors on the show, and we got one recently. And I've actually never done this before. I had used the product in the past. I felt really good about the science. So I felt really good having them sponsor the show when I recorded the ad. And then I started retaking the product like this time around. And I'm so obsessed with it. I actually went and rerecorded the ad to talk about how obsessed I am with it. Like that's how you know, like to take. I think I know what you're talking about. Have you taken seed probiotic?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't, but I heard you talk about it just in our messages.

Melanie Avalon:
So basically, this is why I feel the need to to talk about I literally tell everybody like my sister Like people come to my apartment. I'm like, have you tried see probiotic? I like pull it out Like take it now, but basically I just know a lot of our listeners me included you know struggle with gut issues or really trying to optimize their gut health and the probiotic world is It's so Nebulists and nuanced and there's so many different Probiotic strains and it can be hard to find one that works for you So I historically I've always tried a lot of different ones. Oh, like I I do really love for example I've taken By optimizers p3 om I still take that one because that one specifically helps break down protein and I eat a high protein diet So I like that one, but I started retaking seed and I was so I first heard about them a few years ago On a podcast that the founders and I was so intrigued by all the science they've done on it So basically so like to date now they've done 10 clinical trials and 14 preclinical trials Which is crazy but basically they've really looked into the strains that are in this probiotic and The effects they found are incredible and i'm experiencing them as well. So they have found in their trials that Their formulation which is called ds01 that it supports digestive health So it helps with gas bloating constipation it actually so the probiotic Actually helps hydrate your stool, which helps pass your stool easier. So people who struggle with constipation They found that it helps maintain gut barrier integrity, which is really really important for digestion as well as food sensitivities and things like that They found that it helps support the immune system Cardiovascular health so they found that it helps have beneficial effects on cholesterol and then this is interesting And this is what i'm really really noticing So skin health so they found in some of their studies that this probiotic actually helps with fine lines and wrinkles And supports a youthful appearance of the skin and when I read that I was like, okay Well, maybe no i'm like noticing it. It's crazy. I'm noticing it in my skin. My digestion is so much better Oh and something else really cool is they found that it supports folate production And so for people who struggle with mthfr Or really keeping their their methylation and control I think folate is so so important or if you have high homocysteine levels having adequate folate can help reduce that And so their probiotic has been shown to support that They have a really cool encapsulation that they use that helps get the probiotic exactly where it needs to get into your gut And also their sustainability mission is amazing. I I'm really inspired by them. I'm using them as my inspiration for future packaging and things like that because their Packaging is sustainable what they do for the planet. They have a refill system. That's amazing. So Yeah, but I I just i'm really noticing it with my My digestion my bloating and my skin are the main places i'm really noticing it. So If listeners would like to try it i'm obsessed and their offer is also amazing I love it when brands have amazing offers. So you actually can get 25% off Which is so cool. Just go to seed .com slash if podcast And use the code 2 5 if podcast so 25 if podcast that will get you 25 off their ds zero one Probiotic. Yes, so I just felt the need to share this because I am noticing such a big difference and I plan to keep taking it indefinitely Huh? Those are my thoughts. Do you take?

Vanessa Spina:
Abrobiotic, Vanessa? I do. I take one by bi -optimizer.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, the one I mentioned, yeah, the P3OM. I really like, yeah, I like stacking these because by optimizers is just one strain essentially. This is, it's like the gamut. It's like 24 clinically and scientifically studied strains. I sometimes get nervous with probiotics because of histamine reactions and things like that. I have not had any issues with that at all. I had something amazing. I definitely want to try it. I love it. It's funny because I've been talking with our business partner, Scott, and he's like, we should make a probiotic. And okay, so I'm not saying that I'm, you know, I'm never going to make a probiotic, but that is a whole world where there's so much research and it's so evolving and different things work for different people that I'm like, I'll just let Seed handle it for now. And I do really like, you know, by optimizers, P3OM as well. So I'm not saying I'm not going to make it now, but I really like when I find companies that basically I feel so good about what they're doing that I can just wholeheartedly, you know, endorse them. So yep, yep. Anything else for us to touch on or shall we jump into some things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, sure. I'm ready to jump in. Cool. Would you like to read the first question? Our first question is from Kel, and she's asking, I would be very interested in learning about lengths of fasting to help reduce the risks of Alzheimer's, please.

Melanie Avalon:
Okie dokie. So this was really good timing for this question from Kel, because I actually, although it will be in the past now, but I just released my episode with Max Lugavere, my second episode with him, which was really, really an honor. I think I told you about that, right? About interviewing him again. I brought him back on the show. He wrote Genius Foods, The Genius Life. He has a cookbook as well. He's really a figure in the preventing cognitive decline, addressing Alzheimer's, brain health world. And he has a new documentary out called Little Empty Boxes, which was really haunting and beautiful. He actually filmed it over years and years while his mother was experiencing cognitive decline. And I probably mentioned this on the show before, but I was so, so honored when he came on because he told me that I was one of the only people who had seen the film at that point because he only went on a few podcasts for it, which was such an honor. And then like, for example, I aired the episode this past Friday. And on the same day, like he was on my show and he was on Rogan. I was like, oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
This is crazy. I didn't see it was on Rogan. Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
And I just listened to that episode as well, and it was really good. So I highly recommend checking out his work, but it's been top of my mind, basically preventing cognitive decline in Alzheimer's from researching to interview him, really just diving deep into it and watching the documentary and such. And so then I went and actually did some more research on fasting specifically for Alzheimer's. And so before I dive into the actual studies that I found, something also worth mentioning is I also, a few months ago, aired an episode with Lee Hood and Nathan Price. They have a book called The Age of Scientific Wellness. I think I mentioned them before. Nathan Price is CFO at Thorne, or Chief Science Officer, so CSO at Thorne. That's my favorite brand. Oh, yay, yeah. That was surreal to interview him, but I'm like one of the big guys there. I love Thorne as well. And then Lee Hood is the developer of so much, so much technology that went into genetic sequencing and analysis of all of that. He's like a legend. He's one of the oldest guests actually that I've had on the show. He's like had conversations with like Watson and Crick and stuff, which is crazy. In any case, their book is about aging in general, but what they really focus on is how Alzheimer's and cognitive decline and dementia is really like the health issue that seems to be one of the biggest things that we need to tackle when it comes to the future of health and wellness, because it's just eluding us how to really prevent it, reverse it. It's like the thing that seems irreversible once you really start down the path of cognitive decline compared to a lot of other degenerative diseases and chronic diseases where you can, you know, reverse them oftentimes. So they also talk about the importance of addressing Alzheimer's and their big theory in that book is that Alzheimer's really relates to a metabolic issue that the neurons and cells in the brain are not able to properly generate energy and things just start, you know, not working and get worse and worse. So that's just a broad overview picture of how important or how much intermittent fasting can help support metabolic health and energy generation. And so not only does it help support metabolic health, help reduce energy issues with like blood sugar control and insulin, and I'll go on a tangent about that as well. But on top of that, you also produce ketones while fasting and ketones are a very excellent source of energy for the brain. They're an alternative source of energy to glucose and the brain is very glucose hungry in general. So like it needs, you know, it needs glucose to function. And so something that might be happening a lot in cognitive decline and Alzheimer's is the brain literally just can't use glucose and energy anymore. We actually know that insulin, another thing that happens that's interesting is insulin, which helps regulate blood sugar, also helps, I think, break down amyloid plaque. Like it helps degrade things in the brain and keep things clean. And so if insulin is being used constantly to deal with blood sugar, that kind of negative ramifications and keeping the brain quote clean. Yeah, so there's just so much potential benefit for fasting and cognitive decline and dementia and things like that. And so looking into actual studies, so I found a really nice review from April 2023. It was called Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Cognitive Health and Alzheimer's Disease. And it was published in Nutrition Review. They had a lot of findings. I'll just like read the conclusion, which is very short. But their conclusion was that the observations lead to a hypothesis that intermittent fasting over the years will potentially reverse or delay the pathological process and Alzheimer's disease. And then to get more specific, so some of the things they found, they found that fasting in general tends to have a lot of implications and effects on the mechanisms that are associated with dementia and cognitive decline. It really helps potentially address what might be going on there. And so in animal studies, there's been a lot of, they've found a lot of benefits on cognitive function in animals and memory, mental processing when they're fasting. And they do talk about how the state of fasting, that response evolutionarily supports high brain function because historically, when we were fasting, we had to be finding food. So we had to be cognitively vigilant, like we had to be alert and awake and go find food. So the effects of fasting naturally work to support the brain and brain function. So some of the different mechanisms I mentioned before about how fasting benefits insulin resistance. So like I was saying before, they found that it helps benefit insulin resistance. Like I was mentioning before, actually, some people have even posited, they call cognitive decline and Alzheimer's type 3 diabetes, whether or not that's actually the case or, you know, the full story is yet to be determined. But definitely anything that benefits insulin resistance will likely help benefit the brain as well. Other things happen while fasting that support the brain. So it helps reduce oxidative stress and damage to the mitochondria, which is highly involved in cognitive decline. So basically, our brain cells, their mitochondria, which is the energy production part of the cells tend to be struggling and, you know, experiencing oxidative stress and issues and fasting can help help address that by helping with antioxidant mechanisms, helping repair DNA, helping remove cellular waste in the brain. Another thing that I hear about all the time, like on different podcasts and books and all the things is how we know that fasting supports something called BDNF, which is brain derived neurotropic factor. And that is actually it's sort of like miracle grow for the brain, like it, it really helps support brain cells. And we see that elevated during fasting. So that's amazing. Kind of going back to how I was saying that cognitive decline in Alzheimer's might be a metabolic issue. The paradigm that was presented in that book, The Age of Scientific Wellness, when they presented it as being related to a metabolic issue, they're basically saying that issues with the brain relate to greater issues in the body overall. So with the metabolic issue and metabolic syndrome, that extends to so much in the body. And a part of that is cardiovascular health. And so there seems to be a connection between cardiovascular health and brain health. So vascular health, the endothelial cells, and brain health. And there's been a lot of studies showing benefits of fasting on vascular health as well. So that might be a potential mechanism for how it helps. So when they went through human trials, they did note that there are limited trials looking specifically at fasting and Alzheimer's, for example. So a lot of this is more looking at mechanisms and things that happen during fasting and how we would assume that that's really helping benefit the brain and helping prevent Alzheimer's. There have been some studies with mixed results, like some seeing improved working memory and performance, others not finding that. So there's a lot of factors that could be going on. And they posit at the end that maybe it has to do with compliance issues or how the studies were set up. So it's hard to point to specific human trials on this, especially because cognitive decline and Alzheimer's happens. We know it happens for years and years, and this is what Max Lugavere talks about. By the time you have signs of dementia and Alzheimer's, it was a long time coming. And that's why prevention is so key. And so we don't really have studies that have looked at people for fasting for 10 years and how it affects Alzheimer's. Those studies just haven't been done. I would love for them to be done. But I definitely think there's a lot of potential for fasting to help with all of this. And interestingly, in this review with their analysis of the data, they proposed that basically intermittent fasting may not be quite as beneficial or as effective in reducing amyloid load in the brain, which I will circle back to that, in cases of Alzheimer's that are completely genetic, like familial Alzheimer's disease, that it was probably more effective just for the amyloid deposition part of it and late onset Alzheimer's, which is with versions coming more from dietary choices and lifestyle rather than more on the genetic side. To circle back to the amyloid piece. So that is a whole rabbit hole. People may or may not be familiar, but there's been a really huge upshift, a really, really huge shift in the perspective of amyloid plaque and its role in Alzheimer's disease. I think when people think Alzheimer's and dementia, they think, oh, amyloid plaque, like that's the thing. And a lot of the drugs on the market that try to address Alzheimer's work by trying to remove amyloid plaque. There was a study that in the past, I don't know when this happened, in the past year or so was found, it was a key study really supporting this hypothesis and it was found to be fabricated. Basically, they just made up stuff in order to get drug approvals for certain things. And that's really, really concerning. And it means that, you know, a lot of these medications on the market are based on faulty data and it makes sense looking at it that way because we know that in general, the different drugs that are out there for Alzheimer's just don't seem to really work. And there seems to be, like, there's not really a correlation. There is a correlation, but it's a confusing correlation between plaque and Alzheimer's disease. So basically, you can have people who have autopsies after death who did not have any signs of cognitive decline, any other brain is full of plaque. On the flip side, you can have people with cognitive decline who don't have as much plaque as you would expect. So things don't really seem to match up. And then also, like I said, a lot of these drugs work by targeting removing amyloid plaque and yet they don't fix Alzheimer's. On top of that, as I was reading about in the age of scientific wellness, there's now a theory that amyloid plaque might actually be protective. So basically, there's an issue happening that's not the amyloid plaque in the brain. And then as a response to that, as a protective mechanism, amyloid plaque develops. What I was thinking about this analogy, I was thinking about this last night, is that I don't know that this is exactly the case. But it could be a situation where it would be like if you pass something and you just see tons of police cars and if you started seeing that a lot of different places, would you think the police cars are the problem and we need to get rid of the police? Or is it that the police are there because there was a problem there? And I think that might be something that happens with amyloid plaque. So basically, it's really, really confusing. Point being is I think it's pretty clear now that amyloid plaque is not like the cause of Alzheimer's. It's definitely not what's the word. There's a phrase for this, necessary but not sufficient. So basically, you likely will have amyloid plaque if there's cognitive decline in Alzheimer's, but it on its own does not substantiate or completely cause Alzheimer's. There's probably some greater metabolic or some other issue at play happening. So all of that to say, intermittent fasting, we know just can really support a state of the body that really can extend to brain health. So going back over it again, helping with insulin, helping with metabolic help, helping with cardiovascular disease, antioxidant status, inflammation, so many things. I think it becomes pretty clear that I would definitely look to fasting as something to help prevent cognitive decline. And especially going back to what I was saying earlier, we know that cognitive decline starts years and years before there are symptoms. So if you can be doing something, a lifestyle choice that helps support brain health, I mean, do it. And that's what intermittent fasting can really help do. So I'll just read their longer conclusion. Their final, final conclusion, they said, there are no definite treatments or preventative drugs for dementias arising from Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases. Notably, the pathological processes and Alzheimer's disease are complex and extend beyond beta amyloid plaque and tau. So tau protein is these entangled proteins that also are seen in cases of Alzheimer's. They said our current understanding of Alzheimer's is that it likely reflects a proximate etiology rather than the original cause. So basically, the way we're looking at Alzheimer's right now and thinking certain things are the cause of it, they're probably not actually the root cause, kind of like what I was saying earlier. And so they say that vascular disease plays a critical role in late onset Alzheimer's. Oxygen free radicals and genome mutations are also implicated. In this context, it is worth considering intermittent fasting, given its favorable, favorable impact on vascular endothelium, cellular metabolism, production of oxygen free radicals, and consequent diminished risk for genome mutations. They say that intermittent fasting for 12 to 24 hours appears to be a promising approach to reduce the risk of Alzheimer's pathology and its clinical manifestation of dementia. They note that for findings, they have findings from animal studies showing favorable impacts of intermittent fasting, as well as human studies showing the benefits of fasting and reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease, inflammatory conditions and obesity, which are all associated with Alzheimer's. And then at the very end, they say intermittent fasting may be tested and clinical trials of Alzheimer's disease for safety, feasibility and efficacy, given the broad cellular and metabolic impact of intermittent fasting that can favorably affect Alzheimer's disease pathology from multiple angles. In particular, beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and promoting vascular health and reducing oxidative damage provide empirical support for such trials. So long story short takeaway is lots of promise there. We definitely need more trials. I personally don't think it's one of the best things you could do to help prevent potentially prevent cognitive decline. Vanessa, do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, thank you for that incredible recap and providing all that amazing information that was so thorough. I learned so much from it. And I'm so glad that this question was asked. I recently became more interested in the subject because I have a close friend who has a parent with dementia. And so I was sending them some studies on ketone use and I was recommending they start using MCT oil powder on a like a daily protocol a couple of times a day. And I was sending them all the research showing that this is something that I've known for a long time, but there now is so much research validating ketones. As you mentioned, it, you know, Alzheimer's is now being re perceived, perceived in a new way as diabetes of the brain. And so ketones provide this alternate fuel for the brain as you were talking about. And fasting produces that in some cases, though, I think, especially with someone who's older, fasting is not always going to be ideal for them, depending on their state, like with their muscle mass, et cetera. So if they're not able to fast, they can take MCTs as exogenous ketones, and they'll have ketones there, but you're basically doing the same thing as what you would get through fasting. You're just taking the ketones exogenous. So that's something to consider as well. I love that you mentioned BDNF. That was some of the research that really excited me early on. I got to interview Dr. Mark Madsen a lot about that. But his research on BDNF and intermittent fasting is really great for anyone who wants to look into it further because he wrote a book as well. I think that came out last year and he documents it a lot. So people are interested in fasting and BDNF, brain derived neurotraffic factor. It really is amazing what it does for the brain. So I agree with you. I think fasting is an amazing tool for the brain. And the main two reasons how I perceive it is with regards to BDNF and ketones. I'm not as familiar with the amyloid plaques, et cetera. But I think the MCT oil stuff is really promising. And I've started taking it myself. I've become more recently really interested in cognition because I've been so sleep deprived in the last few years since I started having babies. And I just noticed that my performance when I was podcasting was really starting to suffer in the last, especially six months, especially when I started podcasting. And the second time I just found that I couldn't always recall the word that I wanted to, like I would recall the second best word. So that's something I mentioned on the podcast previously, that now when I podcast, I fast during the day to get myself more deeply into ketosis and my performance is completely back when it comes to podcasting. So on my podcast today, I did not because I had dinner right before we podcasted. But if I had continued fasting until 7 p .m., which is when we start recording, I know that my podcast, my podcasting would be way better. So another thing that I've started doing is when I do have episodes that I'm recording and I haven't fasted, I will have a coffee with MCT oil powder in it before. And that is also really helping makes me more alert and it gives me the ketones. But if I'm fasting, I don't need the caffeine or the ketones. So I wanted to mention that as well.

Melanie Avalon:
I cannot agree more and I find it really intriguing that I hope there's more and more studies on the MCTs and the benefits for the brain because I know I've been following that for a while and I just think there's so much potential there. So I'm really, really excited for there to be more research and we'll definitely put links to all of those resources that you talked about. I was also curious because I remember I did an article in Fox News where it was all about brain health and I was like, did I talk about fasting and that? So I just googled it and I did. It says, Avalon also recommended intermittent fasting, a pattern of eating in which you restrict the hours you eat each day rather than the amount of food you eat as a means of supporting cognitive function. During intermittent fasting, the brain can switch to utilizing ketones generated from fat as an additional fuel source, reducing its reliance on glucose, she said. This may be protective against cognitive decline. Additionally, ketones produced during fasting trigger higher levels. Oh, I remember, I remember this because it says produced during fasting trigger higher levels of proteins that help protect the brain and boost memory and learning, Avalon added. I remember because when I sent for Fox sent them these answers, I said that it boosts BDNF. And then I guess they wanted to make it more accessible to the public. And so they looked at BDNF and it technically is like a protein. But I remember I when I read this, I was like, Oh, no, like, is that I was so stressed. I was like, is that is that correct? Like, is it actually proteins? But it's just it's funny how much when we hear the word protein, like how we just revert to thinking, at least for me, when I heard the word protein, I revert to thinking like dietary protein, like muscle building protein, which is a very myopic view of protein, when really proteins are so many different things in the body. But I'm just having flashbacks now to that moment. So I'll put a link to that article as well. It's called boost brain health and slow mental aging with 10 intriguing tips from longevity experts. Do you have any in your family? Has there been cognitive decline or dementia, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Thankfully not, however, I think that inevitably, you know, the older you get, I think it's something that affects everyone in your brain, you know, relies on this mitochondria. As you're mentioning, there's so many in the brain, and mitochondria over time just get damaged from the energy production process. So, as you mentioned, because fasting reduces oxidative stress, it means you're going to have your mitochondria in better shape, and just living, just existing, is going to wear on your mitochondria, especially if you don't practice fasting, if you eat a standard western American diet, if you don't do resistance training, you don't exercise much, you know, they've done studies where they've shown exercisers and athletes tend to have and retain way more of their mitochondria and also way more of their mitochondria's horsepowers, so to speak. So, I think it's inevitable just from living, eventually your mitochondria are going to take a hit. If you do a lot of the lifestyle things that we talk about, that we practice, that we talk about on this podcast, on our separate podcasts, I think you're going to give yourself an advantage for sure. But even if it doesn't run in the family, even if there's not a genetic predisposition, I think it's something everyone needs to pay attention to, and I'm certainly paying attention to it more, because I've been noticing, you know, with the sleep deprivation, wow, like it really can accelerate, you know, I'm not saying mitochondrial damage, but it can give you a preview of what could come later on. So, taking MCTs, fasting, is something that I've started to get more of my family into as well, since I've started researching that for my friend, and yeah, I don't have it in the family though, no.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I'm really glad to hear that about your family. Same here, except my grandmother had a stroke and then she got dementia after that. So it was not due to, you know, it was from the stroke. And I agree about, like it's inevitable that, it's inevitable that our mitochondria are going to face, you know, the challenges of life and aging and all those things. And I think for most people, it's not inevitable that they will experience cognitive decline if they really are preventative with all of these lifestyle choices and doing everything that they can. And there are some cases, you know, where it's for the genetic disposition, it's, you know, going to happen. That's very, very rare, the numbers of, you know, purely genetic, like familial Alzheimer's disease and things like that. I just think there's so much agency that we can take. So it's really nice to hear that you're, that you were able to support your friend. That way by telling them about the MCT oil. Is it their parent you said?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, it's there.

Melanie Avalon:
their father, their father. Well, that's really great that he can take that and hopefully see changes. So, hokey dokey. Shall we jump into another question? Yes, that sounds great. All right, so now we have a question from Michelle and this was on Facebook and she says, hi Melanie and Vanessa, I love your show. I have a question about modal diabetes. Melanie, you and Jen actually answered a question related to this on the podcast in November 2021, episode 239. At that time, I'd written to ask you about my recent lab results. I had a fasting insulin of three, but my fasting blood glucose was 130 and my HPA1C was 6 .3. You suggested that I chat with my doctor more about the possibility of diabetes. Well, it took a lot longer than it should have, but I just recently found out that I have modal diabetes. It stands for maturity onset diabetes of the young. It's genetic, my sister has it too and it's also rare. I have MODI2, which is when there is a mutation on the GCK gene. This type is usually asymptomatic and doesn't require treatment. Do you girls know anything about MODI diabetes? I'm wondering if fasting will benefit me at all with this condition. I know it's individual and each person will be different when it comes to fasting. I've only been doing 14 to 15 hour fast lately. I haven't been pushing it because life is stressful right now and I don't want to overly stress my body. I do like to give my body a little digestive rest each day. I did really well with fasting when I first started during lockdown, but that time of life was very chill for me. I was not stressed at all. I was able to sleep and relax. Also, I used to be so frustrated that fasting wouldn't bring down my blood glucose, but now I know why. Should I continue fasting? Would longer fast be more helpful? I know it's hard to say, but I'm just wondering if you have any advice for me. I'm trying to lose around 10 to 15 pounds to be at a weight that I feel best, but I can't get the scale to budge. I'm only five two, so 10 to 15 pounds would be very noticeable on me. I appreciate how much you both know about fasting and health in general. Thank you so much. Okay, Vanessa, were you familiar with MODI diabetes?

Vanessa Spina:
This is the first time I actually hear of it. I have heard of something similar, but I hadn't heard of this particular acronym. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
So I was not familiar either. So I learned a lot researching this. I remember this question. So when I first read this question, I immediately remembered her question because I remember reading it. And then I remember I reached out to my friend James Clement actually, who wrote a book called The Switch, who now I am just remembering that I have a message from him that I haven't answered in a while. So let me make a note to answer him. And he was like, that sounds like diabetes. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, it does. And her blood test, she had low fasting insulin, but high glucose. He was saying that it sounds like type one diabetes, where your, you know, your pancreas is not releasing insulin. So you have high blood sugar. So I did a lot of research into this type of diabetes, and it's really, really fascinating. It's a subset of diabetes and it's diagnosed later in life. And it's similar, it's more similar to type one in that it has to do with an issue with the pancreatic function and releasing insulin, but it's not an autoimmune condition. So in type one diabetes, the body is essentially destroying the pancreas and it's not able to, you know, properly release insulin. In this form, there's, and there are a lot of different like manifestations of it, but basically the pancreas is just not functioning correctly. So it's not releasing the appropriate amount of insulin. It's just not doing its job, but it's not an autoimmune condition. And what's interesting as well, and this is kind of what Michelle experienced, there's not always symptoms. So people don't always necessarily notice that they have it. It sounds like what can happen a lot is people will just constantly have high blood sugar, but they won't be getting all of the diabetic type signs. Like their body will be releasing enough insulin to like kind of keep it at bay. And so they don't realize that they're in this kind of dire condition when it comes to blood sugar control. So, and they used to think that only about one to 2% of diabetics had this form, but now they're thinking maybe it's more, might be up to 6 .5%. And so my thoughts on it, as far as fasting is concerned. So I think this is definitely a situation of work with your doctor, like work with your doctor. What's interesting before that is I was reading different case studies about it. And some people would be diagnosed with type one diabetes, but they actually had this form. And then they realized they actually didn't need to be on insulin and they were able to go off their medications because of a misdiagnosis. So that's pretty interesting. My thoughts, I'm not a doctor, please work with your doctor. Preferably a doctor who was informed in the health benefits of fasting, but anything that supports metabolic health, I think would be very favorable to this condition because with this condition, you are experiencing a state where your body is going to struggle with proper blood sugar control and metabolic health. And fasting, as we've talked about all throughout this show, is so beneficial for regulating blood sugar, for putting less into the system during the fasted state and giving the pancreas a rest, for helping with inflammation, for helping with weight loss, even though I know Michelle's really struggling with that. But basically, I think there's so much potential. I don't think it's necessarily a cure for this, and I don't know what the solution is because like I said, it's a genetic condition that can come from, I think I said, like 14 different potential manifestations of it. There's an issue there that's genetic and hopefully medicine will find solutions for this in the future. I wouldn't shy away though from fasting. I would definitely try to find a version that works for you. Wear a CGM, see how you're responding, see what works. You would definitely, definitely, definitely want to be working with a doctor and testing your blood sugar levels to make sure that you don't get hypoglycemic or that you have any negative effects from that. So definitely do this with proper monitoring of all the things. But I definitely feel for you, Michelle, because you have this condition that I don't know that there's actually a solution or an answer right now, but I would definitely practice all the helpful dietary and lifestyle things that you can do to help support metabolic health because it's not just the pancreas that's, you know, really in charge of blood sugar control. We know that so much of it, for example, comes from like the liver releasing blood glucose into the bloodstream. You know, fasting is going to have beneficial effects because of the anti -inflammatory effects, the cardiovascular effects, the, like there's so many effects beyond just the actual insulin blood sugar piece that can extend to the whole body and I think have potentially, you know, beneficial effects as well. But thank you for drawing my attention to this because I wasn't even aware of this type of diabetes and now I am. And so my eyes are opened. I think it's going to be really helpful for, you know, things that we hear from listeners in the future and definitely keep us updated on your journey. And I'll read her PS, but Vanessa, do you have any other thoughts about that?

Vanessa Spina:
I think you covered it so thoroughly and I agree I also appreciate now understanding more about this.

Melanie Avalon:
I feel really sorry that she has this condition. I also do really love, you know, learning, learning new things. Her PS is she said, Vanessa, I bought your red light mask and I am loving it.

Vanessa Spina:
It's amazing. I'm so glad you love it. I love it too. That's so great. Thank you so much for ordering it and sharing your experience.

Melanie Avalon:
And also, okay, I'm making this my goal. I'm so bad. I put it, you sent it to me and you were so kind and I put it on my stack of things to try and I honestly, I've just forgotten to try it. So I'm gonna- No worries. No, but I need to try it. It's like what we were talking about last episode with, was it last episode or this episode with the habit stacking? I mean, I know. I just think-

Vanessa Spina:
that things line up sometimes in the perfect time when you're ready for them. So I know that you'll put it on when you're aligned with it if that makes sense and it'll be something that you want to do at that time and it'll be just perfect. So I'm not like worried about when.

Melanie Avalon:
You're gonna try it, if that makes sense? It's 100% going to become a habit. And actually, the other night, I was doing a call with a friend. I was trying to help him with doing some red light therapy for his own health issues that he was trying to address. And he asked me if I was familiar with the mask. And I was like, oh! And I was like, I need to try Vanessa's mask. And so I pulled it out. Like I said, I have this stack of products to try. So I pulled it out. I need to just habit stack it into my life. Like I'm thinking, I'm gonna try it when I'm in the sauna. Or maybe I can do it when I'm sitting on the couch. I'm gonna find the time to habit stack it. I'm gonna start doing it. Do you do it every day? I do it, like,

Vanessa Spina:
four to five days a week. And usually in the morning, they always say sunrise or sunset. I like to do it in the morning and because it's hands -free, that's my favorite thing about it. You can wear it and you can still do things. So you can still see because there's eye protectors. Not that you really need protection from red light because it actually helps your eyes, but there's eyes protectors. So you can have your eyes open without the light sort of like bothering you or anything in terms of your field of vision. And so if you're like watching something, you can watch something. Like I'm usually in the morning, it's my time with Lucas or like cuddling and like doing puzzles or reading. I don't think I've got my mask on, but it's funny. I post sometimes like I'll be on the deck with him in the morning on the terrace and like I'm having coffee and he's having his milk. And I'm like, no one can really see in our terrace, but like I like to think that, when I stand up and walk out, it's like a neighbor happened to catch a glance at me, they'd just be freaked right out. Like they'd be freaked right out. What the heck?

Melanie Avalon:
Jason or something. It's like Jason. About how we just said it.

Vanessa Spina:
I love with this mask, I always like I've done some reels on Instagram about how it actually is kind of cute looking like a lot of the masks that I tested and that I before I launched this one were Jason level creepy and this one is actually kind of cute and I know because the first time I was wearing it one of the first times I was wearing it and Pete came down the hallway and he was like oh it's like it's actually kind of cute and I know like normally he would be like what the are you wearing what are you doing now and he would like tease me or something but he's like it's actually cute something about the shape of it and like the way it's done you don't look like Jason but I still know that if a neighbor like glanced over they'd probably be momentarily like like terrified yeah because like you're just not you know there's something about not seeing people's faces that is very creepy on some level but anyway this mask the crystal mask is cute you'll see you have to when you do try it whenever that time is that you align with it or stack it in your day you'll have to send me a selfie because yeah I don't know what you think

Melanie Avalon:
I definitely will and one comment really quick. Did I tell you I went out once with Jason? Like one of the Jasons, I'm assuming there's lots of Jasons because aren't there a lot of Halloween movies?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't like that genre. So I don't know a lot of ...

Melanie Avalon:
Actually don't know that I've watched the Halloween movies. I'm assuming, I'm assuming there's a lot of different people that play the Jason's probably. Yeah, when I lived in LA. Wow, how was that? That was, I had so many experiences in LA that were not, were not real life. There were just like moments where you're like watching your life happen. You're like, oh, this is happening right now. He looked as intense in real life as, like, he was a very intimidating, like rocker, like large man. And we went to this really famous bar in LA called the Rainbow Bar and where there's always like lots of celebrities. And it was a crazy night. So yeah, fun times. Point being, how can people get your, your mask, which I'm going to try very soon.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I can't wait to see what you think of it. If you'd like to check it out, it's at ketogenicgirl .com, and I have the whole Tone Luxe red light therapy collection. There are all the different panels, half body panel, face panel, and this mask is called the Tone Luxe crystal mask.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome! Well, we will put links to that in the show notes.

Vanessa Spina:
Thank you so much Michelle for sharing that, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I do too. I can't wait to start trying it. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. Well, this has been, I feel like today was a very informative episode. Alzheimer's, modal diabetes, lots to learn. I love these topics. Yeah. So if listeners would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at iphodcast .com or you can go to iphodcast .com and you can submit questions there. These show notes, which will be very important because we talked about a lot, they will have links to everything that we talked about. For that, go to iphpodcast .com slash episode 381. You can get all the stuff that we like at iphpodcast .com slash stuff we like. You can follow us on Instagram. We are I of podcast. I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl, unless you want to try to find her real one and request to follow her and watch her stories. My personal one. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna have to find that. You're gonna have to sneak, you're gonna have to like scope that one out. Yeah. So I think that's all the things. Anything from you? Sorry, you said.

Vanessa Spina:
Bye for friendship. Yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Isn't that kind of like when you follow somebody, that's what it feels like, you know? Like if they follow you back, it's like they accept your friendship request. Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
It's it's it's so true. Hack me up.

Melanie Avalon:
the world we live in. So, well, this has been absolutely wonderful and I will talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Sounds great. Talk to you then and thanks to everyone for wonderful questions as always. Yes, yes. Bye.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Jul 28

Episode 380: Flexible Fasting, Collagen, OMAD, TMAD, Meal Planning, Protein Ice Cream, Sweet Treats, Podcast Mistakes, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #255 - Dr. Mindy Pelz

Welcome to Episode 380 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

APOLLO NEURO: For 15% off go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST

BETTERHELP: Visit betterhelp.com/ifpodcast today to get 10% off your first month!

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get bone-in chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code IFPODCAST!

Listener Q&A: How often do you change up fasting?

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 380 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 380 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing great. How are you? I am good. I feel like it's been a whirlwind. I had two crazy launches this week, which is really insane, although by the time this comes out, it will be a little bit in the past. But we finally launched my spirulina, so that was really exciting. Has it made its way to Prague yet?

Vanessa Spina:
Actually, like just before we logged on, I was filling out the customs form for it. So it should be here in like two days, I think.

Melanie Avalon:
Whoa, wait, so every time you get stuff coming in, do you have to fill out forms?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because there's like a 20% or something VAT tax. So you have to fill out, provide details on what it is and what the materials are. And then you have to usually pay, which they charge 20. It's just VAT for anything imported from outside of Europe. So it makes shipping really fun. Every time you get something? If it's coming from the US. So the other day, I got a shipment from Element and it was like four boxes, right? They want me to pay the sparkling? No, it was just like regular flavored salts. They want... They sent me an invoice for $70 just to receive the Element. And I'm like, this is salt. I'm like, I'm not paying $70 for salt. But it's just, yeah, Europe is... So if I order things from Amazon Germany, which is within the EU, they have... I don't have to pay the VAT on it, or it's already somehow priced in. But whenever you import from outside of Europe, it's a pretty big tax. But anyway, I'll be here in two days, your spirulina and Emdeologic, the new creatine plus electrolytes, which I'm excited to try for the brain benefits. I can't wait to try that. And I can't wait to try your spirulina as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, you'll have to let me know what you think.

Vanessa Spina:
excited. I'm just like eating so much of it every day.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love my spirulina so much. It's such a nutrient rich superfood. It's crazy. I won't go on too much of a tangent.

Vanessa Spina:
I have a new technique for it. Oh, what is that? So I basically before was doing all these things where I would like weigh it. So I figured if I got to seven grams, that was usually about 30 tablets. And now like I'm usually in a rush. So whenever I break open my eating window and break my fast for the day, I have a scoop, like a handful, which I found that if I feel like my palm, it's usually around 30 tablets, so I just like grab a handful of them and then swallow them with, with water and it's, it's like the only way that I'm actually getting it in every day and it's, it's just funny. Cause I'm just like, like if anyone saw me, I'm just like reaching into this jar of like green tablets and just like downing, like a huge handful of them. But I think I'm getting around 30 each time, but I'm doing the habit stacking things, so I'm adding it into something I already do. And that seems to be the only way that I can add new things lately. So before whatever I was doing, taking it throughout the day or at night, it just wasn't sticking, so I would forget to take it. So this is working.

Melanie Avalon:
I need to try the habit stacking more so basically you just something you already are doing without even you know putting energy into doing it just a habit you attach something a new habit onto that correct.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And it, I have been doing it, I started doing it with the tone collagen as well, because I kept like some days I would realize I didn't take it and I just had to add it into my coffee. And I have to put it right next to the coffee machine, you know, at first, right, like, I don't know how long it takes, if it's like 30 days, or, you know, they say it's usually 30 or whatever, you know, to do that for 30 days, but exactly, it's to stack it with or attach it to something that you do every day already, then it makes it much easier to add in something new. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
Habit stacking spirulina. I am such a fan. Congrats on that. What else did you launch? So that was on Friday. Oh, and if listeners would like to purchase it, they can go to AvalonX .us and use the coupon code MelanieAvalon. That will get you 10% off. Yes. And then on Saturday, I launched my third podcast, which is crazy. The Mind Blown podcast. Yay. Congrats. Yeah, I'm really excited about that one because I've talked about it a bit, but it's my first non health and wellness related adventure and it's with Scott Emmons. It's just, it's so fun because we go into really crazy mind blowing topics. So the first few episodes were the Mandela effect. The next one was about the dancing plague of 1518. We do episodes on like random listicle type episodes, like random things that have uses that you didn't realize in life. And it's just, it's fun. And it's funny because well, I don't know if it's funny. I think it's funny. It's kind of laugh a lot. It's the point. I'm really excited about that. Oh, I have a podcasting story for you. I, for the first time, oh, okay. I interviewed, did I tell you this how I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger?

Vanessa Spina:
I think we talked about it a little bit on the last episode, but maybe you were just preparing for it.

Melanie Avalon:
I think so. So I finally had it. And for listeners, he's, he's the big vegan, not big and size wise, like big and fame. So I wanted to record a little bit of video in the beginning for my social media because he's a very big deal. And so my email to guests always says that it's audio only because typically it is so he wasn't ready for video. So he had to kind of switch setups. So which was, I was already feeling bad because they had to like change cameras and everything. So he changed, we did some video, then we went back to audio, we recorded the episode, which was 90 minutes. And then I realized at the end, in switching back, I did not hit record for the episode. Have you done that?

Vanessa Spina:
no it's happened to me at least once and it was so painful of an experience that it it has scarred me so every single time i record now i'm like so intense about making sure that i press the button

Melanie Avalon:
It's a real and it doesn't I feel for you.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like the worst thing that can happen.

Melanie Avalon:
What's funny, I had my therapist appointment the next day, and there was a lot of other relatively pretty bad things happening at the time, like objective bad things, like if I were to tell you, you'd be like, Oh, yeah, that's like really bad. But the like, I was in the therapist room, like listing off all these things. And I was like, but the worst of it all is I literally I was ruminating. I was like couldn't sleep. Wait, so what did you do? So okay, because I was still on the fence, I was like, do I? I was so embarrassed. And he's such a big deal. And I was like, do I? Do I tell him? Do I not tell him and hope he never notices, which he probably won't because he, you know, does so much stuff. And I'll just wait until his next book comes out and invite him back on. And then finally, I was like, you know what, I'm just, I'm just literally going to tell him like exactly what happened with a lot of emojis, like a lot of emojis. You had already hung up. Yes. Yeah. I didn't realize until my assistant went to go upload the files. And she was like, so the panic moment, she was like, Jill, you so bad. I know. She was like, I don't, I don't see the files. They say like zero. I was like, what? What? I was like at the store. So it was like 30 minutes of like anxiety, which only got worse was yours with somebody.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm trying to remember who it was with, but I did invite them to rerecord and we did, but like I realized I've been podcasting out for six years and I think it happened in the first couple of years. I can't remember who it was with, but I remember it was very painful, but actually realized that the second time we made the episode even better, because it was almost like the first was a dress rehearsal. And I've done that before where I've just recorded with a guest and then a couple of days later, I'm like, I just don't feel good about the episode and I'll contact them. I've done this a couple of times and I'm like, do you want to do it again? And they're sometimes, yeah, usually they say yes. And it happens to be with people that I'm friendly with. So that, that makes all the difference, right? If it's someone that you have a friendship with, or if it's someone that is like a big guest that you don't really have a connection with, like until then and you have to ask them again and they're really busy, then it's rough. Yeah, but I always feel like it's worth just asking if they want to do it again and make it even better, you know, cause it, I'm sure he wants to come out on your podcast. So, you know, and I'm sure he's had similar experiences where something didn't get recorded, everyone has. So I'm sure he could understand. So what did you end up doing?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, well, that's the thing. So I literally can't express how much I was ruminating about this. And then finally, I just, you know, had a glass of wine, sent an email, and his team answered back and said that in the email, I was like, if you'd like to come back on for like a shorter one rerecord, or we could just wait until, you know, his next book comes out. And then she was like, she was like, yeah, he said, I'll come back. And she said, maybe this time, it'll be even better. Like you just said, and what was so amazing about that was a just the weight off my shoulders. But it was really, really nice to know because I think I talked about this before, but I do get pretty nervous bringing on people that are very, very vegan like that, because just because I want them to feel really comfortable. And I know my audience is not exactly their exact audience, even though there is, you know, a lot of plant based people in my audience. But but to know that he'd already spent 90 minutes, and that he was willing to come back. And she even said, like, he'll come on for the same length of time. I was like, Oh, my goodness. So he at least thought it was worth his time to come back, which was the biggest compliment. Yes. And he probably had a great time with you. He was really, really nice. So yeah, I'm so grateful. I was like, I said, text my sister, I was like, humanity is so kind.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm sure he had a great time with you and it's always nice being interviewed by someone and you're so nice and kind. Like I'm sure their team was also like, of course, we'll hook you up on this one. But yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
been there. Happy ending. Not making that mistake again. I did realize though going forward that I my speaking of habits, I realized my habit of recording as I do announce like I'm hitting the recording button. So I don't think it's gonna happen again. I realize it's only because I transitioned between the two that I was not paying attention. So I'm now not gonna make that mistake again.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, once it happens, you're like always, yeah, very intense about it. I recently was being interviewed and halfway through I realized that my mic was not connected. So I wasn't getting this like crisp quality. It was, you know, my Mac book audio, which I've heard before. And I just cringe when I hear it cause it's so tinny. And I was like, I'll rerecord with you. And she's like, I think it's okay. I'm like, no, like I'm fine. Like let's rerecord. Let's start over. And she was like, don't worry. Like my husband will edit it. I'll let you know. And I'm like, no, I, cause I, I feel so important about the audio quality feel so strongly about the audio quality that I'm really hoping that she's going to contact me to rerecord it. Because you know, it just halfway through, it's going to totally switch to crisp body, but maybe her husband is really good at, you know, editing and he can make it sound better or something. We'll see. But yeah, the panic moment just when like there's something with technology, something with recording, whatever goes wrong. And it's like, it's such a feeling of like you have no control or, you know, there's nothing you can do except just give up and start over.

Melanie Avalon:
It's yeah, it's like full on fight or flight response like just sweating. Mm hmm. Like adrenaline shot.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. But you will never do it again. After I did it that first time, I never did it again, because it's such a painful experience that you'll always remember now.

Melanie Avalon:
I have done that on this show I think once where we were messed up with the mics and I just required a pickup in the beginning and said I pointed out that the quality is not so good in the first half and then that it switches so then at least people people know okay anything with you before we jump in?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm really excited about Tone collagen. I've been diving into the collagen research in the last months and we are, I think we're launching in four or five weeks from now and we finished the packaging and I love it. So I'm really, really excited. And I'm taking collagen every day now because the collagen that we're using in Tone collagen has randomized controlled trials behind it and it shows a definite improvement in the appearance of reduction in the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles, improved elasticity, collagen, and even hydration of the skin. So that, and we added hyaluronic acid in it, which has shown also in RCTs to improve the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles by 15 to 20%, which is pretty huge. Like, I'm like, why not take that? But a lot of people like me, we're putting hyaluronic acid topically and it's such a large molecule that you actually have to ingest it. So I'm super excited to be taking the collagen with the hyaluronic acid in it. And I've just been really excited about the results that I'm going to be getting as I continue to take this and the fact that we're launching it and stacking it with red light. Now that I'm doing red light therapy on my face so consistently, I'm just really excited about being on this like skin health journey. I was texting you earlier today that I was super excited to see that Huberman came out with a podcast today. Oh, it's Huberman.

Melanie Avalon:
I think you said Peter, Atea, and then...

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah. So they both came out with the skin health episodes today. Was it their episode?

Melanie Avalon:
together? No!

Vanessa Spina:
That's what's so funny

Melanie Avalon:
I listen to his about vitamin D. Is that the one your son tanning? Is that the one?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's about skin health, like skin and vitamin D, skin and skin cancer, skin and UVB, UV everything. And so Huberman's is skin and light as well, but it's also about collagen. And I listened to the part on collagen and it's literally everything I just said on the two episodes I just did on collagen, which is like how exciting it is to see that there is actually research showing it. And he said, almost verbatim, what I did, which is I was always skeptical of collagen because I didn't believe that if you eat liver, it's going to make your liver better. Or if you eat heart, it's going to make your heart better. Obviously that's crazy, right? That doesn't work. Your body doesn't like specifically channel amino acids from the heart to your heart. Like that always didn't feel right to me. So I was always skeptical of collagen because I was like, why is eating collagen going to then make your collagen better? But it actually does for some reason in the face. So he said that in the episode and he was just talking about all the RCTs that I talked about in the last two episodes I did on collagen. So I'm really glad that my episodes came out first because otherwise it would sound like I listened to his podcast and then I just like basically just copied what he said. But yeah, I'm really glad those episodes just came out, but it was really cool to see that as well, that he's also very excited about it and taking collagen can really improve your skin health. Yeah, it's great to see that because I was very skeptical about it for a long time. And it's because I've seen a lot of people confusing collagen with protein powder. And collagen is mostly glycine and proline and hydroxyproline. So it cannot in any way substitute for a protein powder, but I understand why there was some skepticism about that and also because of topical collagens don't really do much. Just like topical hyaluronic acid, you have to ingest it. So that's what I've been working on and I'm really excited. I love the packaging also like you do for your spirulina. And it's so much fun as we've talked about before, just the packaging, designing and all that stuff. So I'm really excited for that to be coming out soon.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so exciting. So how can people get information about it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, we're going to be doing also a pre -celled discount. And if you'd like to sign up for that, you can sign up at toneprotein .com.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome!

Vanessa Spina:
I'm excited for you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited for your launches as well. Lots of things we're putting out into the world, both of us.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, it's so fun. I love it. I love the, it's called like the generative drive. I feel like I listened to a whole episode about that, like this desire to like create things and put things into the world.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I've heard before about this Enneagram thing and I think I looked it up and there's actually an Enneagram, unless I'm confusing it with a different classification of personalities or whatever, but there's one called Manifesting Generator and that's what mine was. Oh, which number is that? Do you know? I'm an eight. Sorry. It's human design. There's Enneagram and there's human design and the manifesting generator was the human design.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, gotcha. I have to take that one. It's called the human design. Okay, I'm going to take that. Do you know what any agreement you are?

Vanessa Spina:
I do, but I don't remember. Now it's been, I think it was a three.

Melanie Avalon:
I said I was an eight, I was a three, sorry. When I first did it, I was doing it with a friend and she was an eight, I was a three.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I was a three achiever. Yeah, I'm not surprised you are as well. So yeah, human design is manifesting generators. They're energizers of human design in our society. They take ideas and run with them and execute beautifully. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
I love it. Yeah. It's fun. Awesome. So shall we jump into some fasting things? I would love to. So to start things off, I posted a fun post in my Facebook group and I thought we could read the answers and discuss them if that's of interest. Yes, that sounds great. So after one of our last episodes, we were discussing how often we switch up our personal intermittent fasting protocols. So check out, it was either the episode right before this or the one before that. So it was either 379 or 378 that we talked about this. So I decided to ask in my Facebook group what other listeners do as far as switching up their intermittent fasting protocol. And we got some pretty cool answers. So I thought I could read some of those. Emily said that she changes her intermittent fasting protocol for functions, events, or vacations. I like that. I like that idea of following your protocol as your daily life. And then when you have, like letting it naturally change based on, you know, life circumstances. I feel like, no, I don't really change for functions, events, or vacations, do you?

Vanessa Spina:
I definitely do, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you guys will get along well. Okay, Tabitha, she said after four years of trying different protocols, my body feels best at six days a week, the same one meal a day, and one day a week with a longer window. I pick a Saturday or Sunday vacations, I try to keep the same schedule to feel my best, but I will do a slightly longer window if needed. Yeah, it's interesting because for me, I mean, I don't really go on a lot of vacations, but I like having the consistency of the eating window as a like a center in my life. And so if I'm doing something that's off my normal beaten path, I like having the eating window for me as something that it actually is stable. So I'm kind of like the opposite of some people, but more similar to Tabitha. Naeda, she said I'm working on it because of my schedule. But if I eat really in the morning, I feel that I won't be able to stop eating because usually my last meal is at 7pm. I'm definitely that type of person. If I, once I start eating during a day, I just want to keep eating all day. I actually can't understand the concept of eating during the day and then stopping eating. It doesn't make sense to me, but you're

Vanessa Spina:
Okay with that, right? Yeah, and I was more like you for years and years. And now I find with protein that I don't have that. I mean, I once I have my first meal and I kind of been bouncing around all over the place because every day for us is different. It's like, we're like working full time, we have the kids full time. So every day is different. Like I don't even have I totally understand how it can center you and ground you. And I love that. I almost wish I could do that, but I can't because of how things are right now. But I find because I'm so protein focused, you know, protein makes me so full that my meals are all of my meals are centered on protein. And if I have usually the most I have in a day is two meals, sometimes three, if you consider protein shake after dinner, a third meal. But for me, it's like all one, but because they're so heavy in protein, I get really full after the first meal. And I don't want to think about food at all. Like that's what I love about it is it makes me not repulsed, but like, almost, almost repulsed by the idea of food. I just don't want to think about it. Like if Pete talks to me about food or something, I'm like, I don't want to talk about food right now. Like, protein does that to me. So I don't have that issue anymore. But if I were to, for example, have a meal that was just like all carbs and fat, like I used to, like hummus and rice crackers or something. Or like rice crackers and cheese, I would definitely be ravenous. And I would just be like, thinking about going to get a latte or going to get a drink or this and that. And and now I don't I just want water for the most part between, you know, with some element in it. And that's about it.

Melanie Avalon:
it even if I were to eat like a complete meal of just meat during the day. Like I just love eating and once I'm eating I just want to keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay. But when's the last time you tried that? Cause you've been doing this one meal a day dinner for so long.

Melanie Avalon:
I've tried it in the past few years. It did not go well.

Vanessa Spina:
Also, I wonder if it's because of how your day is because your day is like your day starts later and you're up later. So for you, like opening your window at dinner, I think, is that maybe similar to someone else opening it up midday or at one or something?

Melanie Avalon:
No, because people who open it at one don't just eat for four hours and then go to bed.

Vanessa Spina:
You never know. Well, like today, for example, can I share what I did today? Oh, please. So we just had like, I was out with the kids most of the day because I wanted to give Pete some time alone so he could get work done. And I was out until four since this morning. And I basically just had coffee this morning and then a bunch of water, like several times. And we got home and I was like, okay, I'm going to have my like, quote unquote, lunch now, but it was four o 'clock. So I ended up being oh, mad. And I had my meal and then I was like, well, now I'm too full to have dinner with Pete when he gets back. So I guess I'm just having oh, mad, but it was like from four until six. And then like, I was having a little bit of like dessert at the end and now we're podcasting. So now I'm done for the day. So that's like, it's not like a typical pattern, but I really like it when this happens. But it's like, for me, that was like lunch. I don't know if that's confusing. It was actually my lunch, but I had it at dinner time. So it was like a late lunch. And actually, today is probably like an optimal way for me to eat. Because now I'm closing my window early and going to be fasted until whenever tomorrow. But it was just yeah, isn't that when you typically open your eating window? What time do you have your first meal?

Melanie Avalon:
late. Not four o 'clock.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I meant. I thought you were having it at four for some reason. Maybe that's when Jin would open hers with her hummus.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, no, no, no, four is an example of if I were to have it at four, I would want to just keep eating until 2am.

Vanessa Spina:
That's why I was saying, isn't your dinner. Oh, mad like lunch for me, like at one. Okay. I get it now because you're not having it at four. If you were having it for, it would be similar to like someone who was fasting until midday or 1pm. That's what I meant.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. No, I eat very late. I don't like to say the time because it's so late. But the only time I remember being repulsed by food is when I would like growing up in high school and stuff and we would go to the country club every Wednesday and have a buffet and I would just pig out. So like buffet situations is literally the only time I can remember being like stuffed to the point of, you know, nausea with food. Although now if I do eat a really, really filling meal at night, maybe with more fat than I normally have, I would just not want to eat food the next day during the fast. But if I were to start eating, I would love it. Like I think I just love food.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, last thing. Sorry. If you were to have, say, a meal at four, which would be like my midday or like one o 'clock, and you had a big like a big ribeye or something, and you ate ribeye until you were full, do you not feel like you could then go into like for like four or five hours into another meal? I can always.

Melanie Avalon:
always keep eating.

Vanessa Spina:
Wait, can you keep eating steak or you could then switch to like carbs or fat if it's still protein.

Melanie Avalon:
Like when people, like I think I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode last night, some podcasts, the person made a comment about, I think it was a Huberman, he made a comment about the fillingness of like two ribeyes. I'm like the fillingness of two ribeyes. Like I could always keep, that's why I have to eat so late is because sleep timing, I have to stop eating because it's like time to go to bed. That's why it works so well. I have to have like an endpoint that's like a non -negotiable like, oh, it's 3 a .m. But what?

Vanessa Spina:
What about Thanksgiving, like if you would eat a lot, a lot of turkey, did you ever get to that point where you were like, I'm done?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, the only time I ever feel I'm done is, like I said, those times when it was so overwhelmingly like buffet, Thanksgiving, where you hit the point of feeling sick. That is literally the only time with eating food besides going to bed where we're just shutting off that I would rather at that moment not put more food in my mouth. I have to feel physically sick. And even if I do feel physically sick, then give me two hours and I'll want to eat again.

Vanessa Spina:
Even if it's just pure protein, because ribeye is like protein and fat. Cause for me, when I did carnivore, that's when I had that experience of like, I just don't want to, I had the first time that I had that experience of like, I don't want to look at food. I don't want to think about food anymore. I'm just, I don't want to look at another piece of steak or chicken breast or anything. And I realized the only time I ever felt that way in my life before then was at Thanksgiving. Cause that's the only time I would overeat protein, the Turkey. Cause you know, we're told like, don't eat too much protein. It's bad for your kidneys, et cetera. And I was plant based for so long and never over ate protein. And that's when I made the connection with like protein leverage. And I was like, okay, so if I eat the lean protein until I'm full, then I get disgusted by food to the point where I just want to focus on other things and it, I get all my energy back to focus on work, to focus on kids, projects, whatever. But for me, that's, that was like the protein leveraging. So if it's just protein, if there's carbs, like fruit, or there's fats involved, like I probably could still have more like chocolate or something after dinner, but as long as it's mostly protein, I just have no interest. So

Melanie Avalon:
interesting to that, to get that sick feeling, I require carbs as well. Basically because when I first started eating high protein was when I first started doing Atkins in college and that was the first time, that was essentially the first time I could eat and not dread the end of the meal. I felt like I was satiated. I wasn't craving per se, but I always did want to keep eating still. It was never like, that's why fasting was perfect for me. Because even with low carb where I wasn't fasting, I still had to stop eating. Even though it wasn't blood sugar swings and cravings, I still, even with those high fat, high protein meals, like I said, I always can keep eating and it's always, it was always like a sad thing to keep eating. And then when I realized, oh, I can just eat at night and then go to bed, which the allure of going to sleep is also really fun. You're unconscious, so you're not thinking about not eating.

Vanessa Spina:
But this is fascinating to me because I know as humans, I really believe that we're wired to feast and fast. I really like nothing has ever felt more true to me when I learned a new concept about like our physiology and food than the fasting and feasting. And I really believe we're designed to feast and then, you know, maybe fast for a period after that, but we're definitely designed to feast. And that's, I know exactly what you're talking about when you're having like sometimes we'll be at a restaurant or something, I'll be with somewhere with Pete and I'm like this, we both look at each other. I'm like, this tastes so good. I don't want it to ever end and he's like, I know me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly, and that's how I feel with food.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I make my food so boring now that I don't have that most of the time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, my food, you know what I eat, I eat plain meat, like I eat plain food, like plain cucumbers, plain chicken, plain fish. I add turmeric and ginger, so maybe it's not super plain.

Vanessa Spina:
I have to ask you if you've tried this and also for listeners if they've tried this new thing because for high protein eaters, it is literally the best thing that's ever been invented maybe. So have you tried this protein ice cream with the creamy, the ninja creamy?

Melanie Avalon:
I've been reading about it for like a few years now. People are obsessed. I haven't tried.

Vanessa Spina:
I tried it with toned protein and I just did two scoops of toned protein and filled the rest with unsweetened almond milk and then stirred it around with a spoon. That's literally it. It takes less than a minute to make. Put it in the freezer because it has this compartment in it that you pre -freeze. Put it in there for a minimum of 12 hours. They say 24, but I've done it usually with 12 hours and it works fine in the morning. You take it out of the freezer and it's like this block of ice, like yellow ice, and then you put it in the creamy and it has this powerful blade that goes through from the top to the bottom. You hit the light ice cream setting and then when it's done, you hit re -spin and that makes it like a soft serve vanilla ice cream. If you did a taste test, I don't think people could tell the difference between that and just like a vanilla ice cream because the texture is identical. If you don't do the re -spin mode, it's a little bit more like ice cream when you take it out of the freezer and you kind of have to, as you're eating it, it starts to melt. But this, with the re -spin, it turns it into a soft serve like from a machine. Luca and I will go sit on the couch and we each get a spoon and I share it with him. It is so good and he now gets to have his ice cream because he started to ask for ice cream because he heard other kids talking about ice creams at summertime. He gets his ice cream and I have my ice cream and we're both enjoying basically delicious protein. It's insane. For years, I think it was like four or five years ago, I wanted to make and market a protein ice cream. But when I discovered this, I was like, there's no point because everyone could just make this at home and it's insanely good. It's like the most satisfying ice cream where when you're done, you're like, I'm fine. Whereas usually when you're eating, for me anyway, when I would eat like a traditional ice cream, the whole time I would be like, don't eat the whole thing. Don't eat the whole thing. And then at the end, I'd be like, I ate the whole thing and I still want more. But this is like, you're done and you're like, that was great and I'm good.

Melanie Avalon:
just a few thoughts. One, I think that's amazing. And I've definitely, I've seen lots of boards and people talking about doing it and they're just obsessed. They're obsessed with it. It would be a dangerous slope for me because I had that, especially when I first started doing the low carb diet. That's when I was really experimenting with stuff like that. I think I would get flashback triggers to my... But it's just protein. Yes, but I would still... I don't do well now with artificially sweetened things.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yeah, it does have like my protein has monk fruit in it and I put a bit of Stevie in it.

Melanie Avalon:
I know it tastes amazing and it's like perfect for people who like that is what they want in their lifestyle. I think it just would make me a little bit crazy of other things because of who I am, because of like...

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, you're not worried about overeating that. It's more that it'll give you cravings. Oh, I would overeat that too, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Literally, I'm endorsing this. The reason I know so much about it is because I'm so intrigued by it and it makes me happy to read about all the recipes because it looks like it tastes really good. The reviews I read about people using that, it's creamy, right? Creamy.

Vanessa Spina:
C -R -E -A -M -I, I think, the ninja cream. It's like cream eye, creamy.

Melanie Avalon:
We should see if they want to sponsor this show.

Vanessa Spina:
It is, it is so good. And you can also, I just want to share one last thing for listeners is I make just a vanilla with my tone protein. You can use any protein powder, any flavor, but you can add like mix -ins to it. So you could add like lilies, unsweetened chocolate chips, or you could add blueberries or, you know, sprinkles or whatever in it and add some extra like flavor or something. So it's kind of like the store -bought kind, but it is so satisfying. Like I get stuffed at the end of it. And I think a lot of people would, or a lot of people are, but Luca, he'll have like, we basically share it. So we're each getting like one scoop or one serving of protein with it.

Melanie Avalon:
No, that that's amazing. I cannot express enough how much people are obsessed with this. And if that's something that, you know, works well in your diet, like get Vanessa's tome protein, make it now. I will and then write about it on the internet and I will read it. I'll read about your

Vanessa Spina:
share about it in our group because it's it's a game changer like if you I don't usually have treats and I don't bake a lot of stuff or or buy treats like I was telling you I've been doing those sugar -free marshmallows it's kind of the first time that I've been having anything after dinner but this ice cream is really awesome. I think

Melanie Avalon:
I think that's it, you saying the word treat. I think I have a big emotional connection to food and treats and baked goods and ice cream that goes beyond any, well, A, I think there's the issue of what I just said is that I will keep eating food, like regardless of what it tastes like, like I just love food, even if it's steak, I promise. Like if we were to go to like a Brazilian, you know, steakhouse type thing where they just keep bringing the meat, like I would just keep having them bring it. Have you gone to those? Yes, but not since, not since, doing fasting. I was thinking about it, I was like, should I go there for my birthday? But then I was like, no, no, not a good idea. Cause I want to feel good the next day.

Vanessa Spina:
every time I've gone I'm like the one person at the table who still has it like on green. Oh yeah that would be me and you. And they're like everyone has like been done for a while ago and everyone's like getting meat sweats and they're like they want to leave and I'm like hey we're just getting started.

Melanie Avalon:
That's me. So like, for example, like when I go to a normal restaurant, I eat, I order usually a steak, I eat all of it, then I eat everybody else's leftover steak, then for dessert I eat more steak, like, and then I could still keep eating steak if they would keep bringing it or fish.

Vanessa Spina:
I would love to know what would happen if we both would order a steak for dinner and a steak for dessert and I would not feel any kind of third party embarrassment for myself or anything. Like I would not have to worry about anyone being like, oh my God, she's ordering.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, can we please go to, oh my gosh, can we please go out?

Vanessa Spina:
to dinner yeah that would be so much fun and i think with the all you can eat with the brazilian here there's one called braziliaero i think in the u .s is it called um something with a c

Melanie Avalon:
Wait, Texas Day, Brazil, and Fogo de Chão are the two mean ones.

Vanessa Spina:
chow is the one I see. I think they add a lot of sauces and things to the meat so it's not, I think that is a reason why you just want to keep going if you're like us.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I was like, is this meat seasoned? I gotta find...

Vanessa Spina:
It definitely is. I usually don't mind too much, but I'm aware like that it tastes even better than like it tastes better than it should. Like maybe there's some MSG in some of the sauces and stuff, which always like makes you want to have more. So I am aware of that as well. But it's fun. You should go for your birthday sometime.

Melanie Avalon:
I've seriously contemplated it, but I was looking that up about what they add. And I was like, I would want to do that if it could just be plain. I don't want to get all that extra seasoning and salt and everything, because then I wouldn't... Because here's the thing. I think a big epiphany in my life or something that I really liked a change in my life with food now that I've told about all my struggles and feelings and challenges, I really like being able to go to a restaurant, get exactly what I want that I love and not feel bad the next day. Because I think it's a really common experience for people because of everything they add in restaurants, like seasonings and salsas and MSG and seed oils to not feel that well the next day. But I've learned, oh, I know how to order and I can have a time in my life and I can still not have really any residual effects from that. And I just love... I love that. And so I've been looking at going to something like that, but I was like, I don't think I would feel well with all the stuff they add to it, especially if I would... Because I would just keep eating and eating and eating. But maybe once, I probably should just for the experience.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, last question, do you ever have treats?

Melanie Avalon:
In my mind I do, not now, no. I did go through a period where I was experimenting with sort of kind of like things you were talking about, like with the protein ice cream and stuff. I was experimenting with like these low carb mixes and I realized for me that it was a completely emotional connection and not one that necessarily, it made me feel good in the moment and maybe it didn't have any too bad of negative effects because I had, you know, I would do like the, I mean, I would be crazy. I would do like the low carb and low fat treats. Basically I would recreate as much as I could the funfetti experience, but in a low carb, low fat approach because I was like, I'm just going to minimize all potential damage here. And I realized for me it just wasn't a healthy emotional habit, like the relationship I had. And I, for me it's better just to not go there. I mean, I think it's wonderful for people who, like we were talking about earlier, it does work for them and it lets them have these treats and things that they want and, you know, live their lifestyle and support the health of their body and do all the things. I think that's great. For me, I think it's just, I just rather not. I do love funfetti though. On my death bed, I will eat funfetti.

Vanessa Spina:
I always say like when I'm an old lady, I'll just be like eating all the things.

Melanie Avalon:
This is really morbid. I shouldn't say this, but I have had moments where I have had moments where I'm like, well, you know what? At least on my death bed, like the day I can, like, I'm just going to eat all the things. That's going to be a really fun moment. So you know what? We got something to look forward to.

Vanessa Spina:
on my life are you still doing I know you were trying just like pure protein days

Melanie Avalon:
been doing quite a few of those. I realized I do them mostly because they eat so late. Sometimes for whatever reason, it's just really, really late, later than late, late. And I really need to go to bed. And on those days, I'm like, you know what? It's faster for me to just eat protein rather than go through my whole experience of the cucumbers and cook the food and all the fruit and all the stuff. So if it's a really, really late night, sometimes I'll just eat a hunk of protein and go to bed. Or if I have to get up really, really early, I'll eat all protein the night before because then I know I won't have, I for sure won't have any digestive distress now that everybody knows all my crazy weird habits. I really can't express enough, Vanessa, how much I always can keep eating. And I've always been that way. I want to be really clear about this. This is not a result of me fasting and being ravenous. I have always

Vanessa Spina:
been this way. I'm saying like I totally get it and like I was saying earlier I really believe we are wired to feast. We are wired to make hay while the Sun shines to eat when you like ancestrally you'd have a big kill take down like some big wooly mammoth or whatever and we are wired to eat as much of that as possible and to feast because who knows how long it would be until the next one. So I really believe that's our ancestry. We are descendants of the survivors who lived during that time and were able to survive by hunting and gathering and so there's a reason why when you start eating delicious food like you want to eat as much of it as possible it's it's a way I really believe that you know we're wired so I totally get it I totally get it.

Melanie Avalon:
I feel the same way although it's interesting so like and like at restaurants or I always clear my plate I've always been ever since I was little I was always fascinated by people who didn't eat everything on their plate I'm really I'm really intrigued by people that don't seem to have this drive quite as much like people who can just Eat and be done

Vanessa Spina:
My husband is like that. I don't understand. We have like half his plate and I'm like, what's going on here? How do you do that? What is the sorcery?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I don't understand it. I really don't. Oh my gosh, we have to go eat dinner together some time.

Vanessa Spina:
time. Yeah, that would be so much fun. We'll definitely make it happen. I know you will.

Melanie Avalon:
we could get the appetizer like the carpaccio or shrimp cocktail or tartar tartar oh yes and um okay okay who are we responding to nydia was saying that she oh she was saying that her last meal is at seven oh she was talking about how she once she starts when she starts eating she can't stop right there with you stacy says she just started a morning to midday eating window instead of opening at two or three pm i follow a keto guy that she found on our pod oh i wonder who and i'm trying this way for a while a keto guy who was eating earlier

Vanessa Spina:
I want to know who also let us know in the group.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I wonder if it was Matt Gallant from Bioptimizers, or it might have been, I don't know, we've had quite a few. It could have been William Shufelt, could have been quite a few people. Anna says she does mostly 20 to 22 hours of fasting, and then two days a week, Monday and Thursday, she does 40 hours. And then her eating windows are usually between 4 and 8 p .m., and she has dinner with her partner. That's what I feel like I would like to be that eating window, like 4 to 8, and then, you know, have some time before bed. Oh well, not gonna happen.

Vanessa Spina:
That's what I always thought you were doing. That's what I do on my days.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's nice. That's nice. Lizzie says her stays the same. She's strict during the week and more lax at weekends and holidays. Heather says she's following because she just recently completed two fasts greater than 36 hours. And she was blown away by the mental clarity and energy at the end of it. She's following Mindy's flag protocol with her cycle. Oh, and I will put a link in the show notes. So I did just air my episode with Dr. Mindy Peltz. If people would like to learn more about fasting for their cycle, they can check that out. That's been a very, very popular episode. Melissa says she always got a minimum of 12 hours, but she prefers waiting 16 or more before breaking her fast. She says, I go on how I feel to decide. I don't have a strict routine, but I don't get stressed if I have a family event that requires more around the 12 hours. I'm 54 postmenopausal. So I think for me, it's better to have some inconsistency. So I don't plateau. I do like that. I like people knowing what works for them, just to comment on the postmenopausal stuff. We've had a lot of episodes on fasting for different states of life. And I think fasting suits the postmenopausal state of life very, very well for many women. And then Christie says, I cannot stay on any protocol with a laughing emoji. She says, my window is always changing. I have a super busy lifestyle. I find it easier to just focus on my clean fast for a specific number of hours, typically no less than 19 hours fasted. I eat when it is convenient beyond that point. Two days, sometimes I only get one day off, I will do a longer eating window so I can try to fit a couple of good meals in. I do focus on my protein on days when I won't be able to get much food in. She said also she's lost 35 pounds since March and she posted this in May. So congrats, Christie. That is amazing. It's interesting. I find it really interesting people who, and maybe not so much with the fasting per se, but people often say they're too busy to do fasting or follow a certain diet. I feel like once you find a diet and a habit that really works for you, it frees up more time. But maybe I'm just not quite understanding people's life circumstances.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I definitely that's one of my favorite things about it and why it's so helpful on the days that I do all matter, even just, you know, two meals a day, it's just so much less planning, so much less prep. And then with kids, it's like, it's like an hour of prep and an hour of cleanup because there's just, and also like time during that is eating. So it's like, I don't know, an hour of prep and like half an hour eating half an hour cleanup. It takes two hours for us to have a meal as a family. There's just so much cleaning involved with like little kids. So yeah, for me, like I still prepare meals for the kids, but for me to be able to give them a meal out, like today we had lunch out or to be able, and I, I wasn't having lunch, like the kids had lunch while we were out, just to not have to do that for myself saves me so much time, so much time. It's insane how much time it actually takes if you cook for yourself, whole foods at home for every meal. Like it's, I mean, we usually as a family tend to do between two to three meals because the kids will have two big protein meals every day, and then they'll have snacks. Sometimes they'll have three meals, just depending on their hunger. Most of the time, like Luke is having three meals a day and Damien's having like 20 million breastfeeding. But it's such a time saver if you don't have kids or if you're on your own or you're not eating and your family is, it's just saved so much time. Oh my gosh, like I, so maybe they're talking about getting into it that takes time, like planning it out.

Melanie Avalon:
She just, she just focuses on a clean fast, typically no less than 19 hours, and she eats when it is convenient. And then also she adjusts based on when she gets days off. So maybe it has to do with like shifting work schedules and things about how it actually aligns with the literal time on the clock ability to eat, I'm guessing. I guess for me, it's if you do a one meal a day situation where you eat at the end of the day, you will always have an at the end of the day moment before bed. So like, I guess you also every time you wake up, that's also a consistency. So like if you wanted to have like a consistency that never changed, it would be, you know, eating right upon waking or eating right before you go to bed, that could change with the amount of hours fasted based on shift work and things like that. But I just think like if you put in, it's like if you put in the prep into knowing how you're going to eat, then not having to make those eating decisions all the time frees up so much time, like so much time. So that also applies to food choices as well. Like people who say they can't follow a certain diet, you know, eating, not eating processed foods or eating certain whole foods. Like if you plan ahead, I don't want this to come from an entitled place. Like I know maybe this is a lot harder based on people's life circumstances. But I do think at least trying to plan things out with your food choices and seeing how it goes might be an option. It might be a more approachable option than some people realize. And I don't think this actually necessarily applies to what Christy is saying, but just in general, the concept of dietary changes and whether or not you have time for them. Okay, and then Christy, I want more comment, which I'll end on because it kind of ties everything together. But Dr. Alexandria Rosa said she does one meal a day, usually with a weekly 24 hour fast and a quarterly 72 hour fast. And then Christy, who we were just talking about, she said she wanted to add, she said, I'm struggling to find hunger. That's not a complaint. It's an observation. So while I'm constantly switching my eating window, I often cannot eat. Oh, okay. That makes sense. I often cannot eat when it's quote time. For example, the other day I was set for a 24, 23 hour fast, 23 hours past, I got hungry -ish at 30 hours. It was late night. I don't generally enjoy eating supper late. I made a nice sauteed salmon and put it over a salad with avocado and it was satisfying and I called it a day. That kind of ties everything together. So she's definitely having this experience of not having hunger during the fast and while eating feeling very satisfied. So yeah, I definitely have had that experience though of it's time to break my fast and I'm just not hungry. That's the time I'll be not hungry as deep into my fast and maybe that's why I love it so much because I'm finally free from this eating craving thing that used to perpetually run my life all the time. Exhausting. So any comments?

Vanessa Spina:
I love hearing everyone's, you know, experience and what works for them and how people either have flexibility with it or it actually gives structure to their day. I think that's so cool. I relate to so much of it.

Melanie Avalon:
I love people being able to find what really works for them personally. And it's so interesting how so many different things work for different people. And it's also really interesting just with intermittent fasting being so popular now and increasingly growing. If people aren't familiar with it, and they haven't tried it, there are so many different approaches to it. So you can't even, you know, it's hard to comment on whether or not it's going to work for somebody because what is it like there's so many manifestations. So I definitely encourage people to trial things and experiment to find what really works for them. So Okie Dokie, well, this was amazing. For listeners, the show notes for today's episode will be at ifodcast .com slash episode 380. Those show notes will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. You can submit your own questions to questions at ifpodcast .com, or you can go to ifpodcast .com and you can submit questions there. You can also ask questions in that Facebook group, which is ifbiohackers. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I'm Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun. I loved hearing everyone's different approaches and eating windows and timings. It was great and looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too, I will

Vanessa Spina:
Talk to you next week. Okay, sounds great. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jul 21

Episode 379: Special Guest: Chris Rhodes (Mimio), Fasting Mimetics, Anti-Inflammatory, Autophagy, Fasting Metabolites, OAE, PEA, Spermidine, Nicotinamide, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 379 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

APOLLO NEURO: Apollo uses sound wave technology to activate your parasympathetic nervous system and instantly turn off stress with the touch of a button! Use this wearable lifestyle enhancer to regulate your body's stress response, improve sleep quality, resolve insomnia, improve heart rate variability, support a state of calm, and more! Go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST for 15% off!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

APOLLO NEURO: Go to ifpodcast.com/apollo and use promo code IFPODCAST for 15% off!

MIMIO: Go to mimiohealth.com and use the code IFPODCAST to save 20% off your first order!

Chris' personal story

Comprehensive metabolomics

Fasting mimetics

The role of variability across study members

Controlled habitual diets

OAE (Oleoylethanolamide), PEA (Palmitoylethanolamide), Spermidine, nicotinamide

Determining dosing

Were there diminishing returns at the higher dose?

Making fasting easier and more palatable

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 379 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, friends. Just a quick note before we jump into today's episode, which I am so excited about. It is with a very special guest, and you are going to learn so much about what happens in your body during fasting and how you can potentially really enhance that majorly. We're going to talk about how you can potentially get the benefits of a 36 -hour fast during your daily fast. I personally am so excited about Mimeo. I'm going to try it out myself. I do want to note one thing about the ingredients. You guys know I am really intense when it comes to the fillers that are in supplements. Mimeo does contain a vegetable form of magnesium stearate, so I did just want to put that disclaimer out there. After talking with Chris and learning about the supplement, though, I personally think the benefits likely way outweigh any negative effects from magnesium stearate, which likely is benign. You guys just know me. I like to be kind of crazy and super intense with every single ingredient that I put in my body, so that's just a small disclaimer. Like I said, I am personally going to take Mimeo. I'm so excited about it. And, friends, you can get 20% off if you go to ifpodcast .com slash Mimeo. That's M -I -M -I -O. And use the coupon code ifpodcast. That will get you 20% off. Okay, get ready to have your minds blown. Here we go. Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 379 of the intermittent fasting podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am so excited because I have a very, very special guest today on the show here to talk about a topic that you guys are obsessed with, which is obviously fasting, but specifically some of the pretty cool metabolites and changes that happen in the body while fasting and how we can maybe potentially take those, I guess, compounds in supplement form and the effects of that. So there is so much science to dive deep into here. I am here with Dr. Chris Rhodes. He is the co -founder of a really cool company called Mimeo that we first connected, was it probably over a year ago now, I think,

Chris Rhodes:
Through Vanessa.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes, it was. And quite a while ago now, I was really, really intrigued with the science of what they were doing. And so we had quite a few calls about everything. Since then, we were just chatting before this episode, we actually got to meet in person because they had a booth at Dave Asprey's 10th annual biohacking conference. And I was so excited because there's so many incredible brands at that conference. But I saw you guys and it's really exciting to, you know, connect with these people virtually. But then to actually get to meet in real life, it's just a whole other level. So that was a really, really special moment for me. And after we connected, we were like, we just have to have to have this show and dive into the science and everything that you guys are doing and you know, see how it may help listeners as well. So, Chris, thank you so much for being here.

Chris Rhodes:
Oh yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to dive deep and just chat about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Prior to prepping for this interview, I had read your website and we had had conversations and everything, but I hadn't actually gone and read the details of the clinical study that you conducted from, what was it, like 2018 to 2023? I was like, that's a long time to be working on something. Because didn't you actually do the initial study in 2018?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, we started the initial study in 2017, actually. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, so it was all it was all what I was doing for my graduate thesis, getting my PhD in nutritional biochemistry from UC Davis. So all of that research was kind of like the five and then the five years of actually getting my PhD, and then an additional two years of postdoc after that to kind of develop the technology that eventually became Mimeo.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, okay. Gotcha. That's awesome. So yeah, so point being, I went and actually read the whole thing and it's so cool. And I'm so excited to talk about it, talk about the formation of Mimeo, where to start. Okay, well, I guess your personal story, you did just tap on it a little bit right then. But when you... Okay, so what made you decide to do that initial study in the first place? Did you have any idea when you started it where it was going to land? Like ultimately, that it would lead to the formation of this company that you have.

Chris Rhodes:
No, no, not at all. So I mean, the long story short of it is I got my BS in biochemistry from Loyola Marymount University down in LA. That was in 2013. And you know, like a lot of college kids got out didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I took an immunology fellowship at Stanford, where I just started pouring through all the research that I could get my hands on trying to find out what you know, really lit me up inside, and eventually came across, you know, longevity research, which I thought was fascinating, because it was this area that used to be, you know, the realm of like myth and legend, right, Ponce de Leon, and the fountain of youth and all that. But suddenly now it was becoming this very interesting and very robust area of scientific research. And when you're in that space, eventually you come across fasting, because fasting is one of the most reliable ways that we know of to extend lifespan in model organisms. And beyond that, when you dive deeper into, you know, the 1000s of studies that have been done on it, you see that it can help to treat prevent and delay most major diseases at the same time. So it's kind of this one thing that does everything. And what I found so fascinating about it was that it does all of that without actually adding anything into the system, right? It's not like this superfood or this wonder drug that's doing all that work. But somehow fasting is activating all of these regenerative systems and this, you know, longevity bio program that already exists inside of us, but just isn't ordinarily activated. And when that clicked for me, I actually got kind of mad about it. I was very much like, so my body knows how to live to be 120 and in perfect health, but it's just not doing it. And, and that's what kind of sent me down the rabbit hole of like, all right, I need to figure out what is happening in the human body during a fast to see if there's some way that we can kind of, you know, recreate it, right? Activate those same benefits, activate those regenerative systems, that longevity bio program on demand. And that's what I decided to do for my PhD research. And I went to UC Davis, got my PhD in nutrition, and like did the clinical study essentially to look at what was happening there.

Melanie Avalon:
That is so cool. I love it. I also just love that you captured all of the magic and fasting in that intro.

Chris Rhodes:
That's my specialty. That's what I'm here for.

Melanie Avalon:
I know if you're like the billboard for fasting, this is so incredible. So can we actually talk about that study that you did because I'm just so, so fascinated by it. What I really loved about the setup of it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but basically you had 20 people, I think, and they, you tested them at four different times. So it was in the fed state, it was in the technically fasted state, but basically once you're entering the fasted state, so like the beginning ish of a fast.

Chris Rhodes:
A typical overnight fasting state is like a 10 to 12 hour mark.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so beginning of the fast and then deeper into a 36 -hour fast and then refeeding after that 36 -hour fast. Was that the four times?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, those are the four. Yep, yep, that was it. Yeah, so what we did for that, just like you said, we had 20 people come in, 10 men and 10 women, so we were avoiding a gender bias. That was something that's very important, especially in the fasting research phase. There's not enough research done on women, so we wanted to make sure that we were getting a good, accurate representation of both genders. Yeah, we had them do an overnight fasted state, then had them eat their normal diet throughout the first day of the study. And then two hours after their last meal, after eating all day, we took a blood draw. Then we had them fast for 36 hours, which we then tracked for compliance through glucose monitoring to make sure that no one was eating or cheating. Took a 36 hour fasted time point. And then on that third day, we had them eat just like they were eating on day one. So the exact same meals, the exact same timing, and then two hours after that, we took another blood draw and basically looked at all of the functional differences of their cells and their plasma between each of those states. And what we found was really, really interesting because of course, you could, like when we're in this postprandial state, when we're in this fed state, there's usually this big loss of plasma functionality. And that is because you have all this, these nutrients that are pouring into the system, throwing everything out of homeostasis, right? All this metabolic chaos that your body has to deal with or else it'll die. And then you also have all the foreign molecules that are coming in, just because like broccoli, food, whatever, they're not humans. So they're coming into your body and they're creating some kind of immune response. So you have these inflammatory responses, the metabolic responses, that being thrown out of homeostasis, and then also kind of deprioritizing other functionalities in order to focus on digestion and metabolism and all of that. So we see this, we saw this big loss of plasma functionality there. And of course, the baseline state was much better than that. But what was really, really interesting is that the 36 hour facet state was the best of them all. So the overnight fast is what we would call the baseline state and the 36 hour fast was able to really, really enhance functionality even beyond that. So there was something unique about the 36 hours of fasting that basically turned these already young, healthy people into super people. Their plasma became more anti -inflammatory, it became more antioxidant, it became more cardio protective. And of course, their metabolic markers were way better. So that was fascinating for us because it's really hard to do that with a nutritional intervention, especially a single like one day intervention, taking already healthy people and really enhancing their functionality. So we were like, all right, what is the difference between one state and the other? And what we found was that we did what's called comprehensive metabolomics, basically looking at all of the small molecule components of the plasma. And we found that there were over 300 significant differences between the baseline state and the 36 hour fasted state. Those were kind of the ones that were basically responsible for activating a lot of these beneficial cellular health effects. So we screened through that list of 300 looking for ones that already had some kind of evidence of bioactivity, whether that was in creating anti -inflammatory effects or enhancing autophagy. And when we screened through that list, we were able to find this synergistic combination of four of those metabolites that when we use them in isolation could recreate these same beneficial effects of fasting, those same anti -inflammatory, antioxidant, cardioprotective benefits in human cells. And then even beyond that, and this is the thing that I think is so cool, we were able to enhance lifespan in C. elegans by 96% just through supplementation. So basically doubling their lifespan by using these fasting metabolites. So that's kind of what the MIMIO formulation ultimately ended up being. And what it is is that it's taking what your body naturally produces during a 36 hour fast and giving it back to people as a supplement so that you can raise your levels of those metabolites even when you're eating and get the same benefits of fasting, but without actually having the fast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. This is so, so cool. Okay. I have so many questions. So when you were looking through those metabolites, actually before that, I just want to make sure I'm going to like repeat some of what you said to make sure I'm understanding and the listeners are understanding. So basically, basically you tested people's blood at different times of fasting and eating. And you found that in this longer fasted state, this 36 hour fasted state, the, there were certain compounds elevated in the blood and that composition of blood itself is a more, I guess, like anti -inflammatory state of blood. And when you took that, those compounds themselves and tested them on human, so not in human people's bodies, but in their actual cells in vitro, you saw certain beneficial effects. And then also when you tested it and like you said, the C. elegans, you saw the lifespan extension. Is that like kind of what happened?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Taking those same molecules that are really only produced in the body during a fast and then just giving them back to either cells or the C. elegans, that's where we found that we could mimic these beneficial effects of fasting just through, basically recreating fasting at the molecular level. That's more or less what the MIMIO formulation is trying to do.

Melanie Avalon:
So questions. You mentioned there was over 300 metabolites. How did you decide, did you know from the beginning that it was that you're going to pick four? Like, was there like a fifth and a sixth one that were kind of close up there? Like, how did you decide the four?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, absolutely. So, of the 300 that we originally identified from the metabolomics, around a dozen of them were already known to have some kind of bioactive ability, right? In the literature, there had already been studies showing that, okay, this molecule or this molecule or this molecule has some kind of cellular effect. So, we took those, you know, around a dozen, and we screened them through all of those same cellular functionalities that we had been looking at during a 36 -hour fast. And from there, we were able to find, like, okay, you know, this molecule can explain maybe the anti -inflammatory effects, this molecule can explain these antioxidant effects, this molecule can explain the autophagy, like upregulation, right? And so, then we started combining the molecules together and found that there was this synergistic combination of four of them, that when we put them together created effects that could recreate all the, you know, the things that we were seeing during the actual fast, but then do so in a way that was greater than the sum of their parts, right? So, for example, with the C. elegans, when we tested these four molecules out individually, you know, they could extend lifespan by 5%, 10%, maybe up to 20% on their own, but it was only when we combined them together into that combination of four did we see this synergistic extension of lifespan up to 96%. So, these molecules are really activating these, you know, complementary pathways that are kind of recreating that, like we said, bio -program of fasting. So, we're trying to more accurately recreate the biological complexity that happens with some of the most powerful molecules that we could find from that data set.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. And I definitely want to go through them. Before that, I'm curious if you have thoughts, because I feel like there's two really big factors that I'm wondering if they affect the implications or the manifestations of these compounds. So one would be, is there a difference between, and again, we can go through them in a little bit, and that probably would be helpful for listeners, but is there a difference between our body endogenously creating these compounds versus taking them exogenously? Like, do they look any different to the body? Does the body know where they came from? And then I'll wait for the second one. So yeah, so that question.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, so that's a great question. And for these particular molecules, no, the body can't really tell the difference between something that you're going to take as a supplement, as long as it's, you know, bioidentical, right, versus the endogenously produced metabolite. And that's because metabolites don't have post translational modifications like proteins do, for example. So there's no decorations that says like, this is a human molecule versus this is a, like a plant molecule for these specific ones. If we were talking about proteins, then yes, it would depend, there would be differences based on, you know, what organism was the one that produced the protein in the first place and where did it come from and how it was treated. But for these metabolites, they're more chemical signalers rather than like protein enzymes.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, that completely makes sense, so the body doesn't really know. Second question is, when you test the compounds on the human cells in vitro, are those cells fasted cells?

Chris Rhodes:
Actually, yeah. And those cells are not fasted cells. We made sure that they were not fasted cells because we wanted to make sure that they had all the glucose and proteins and fats that they would need to essentially recreate a fed state, right? And then added in the fasting metabolites so that we could assess, you know, if you gave this to people when they were actually eating, what would happen? And would they still be able to recreate these effects?

Melanie Avalon:
That's one of my biggest questions is, you know, what is the difference of having these in the fasted state versus in the fed state?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, absolutely. And we can we can go into this a little bit later on. So we actually did a we've done already a pilot clinical study to look at what happens when humans actually take these, you know, the fasting mimetic formula, they take Mimeo during a meal and basically looking at the before and afters there and how it impacts their cellular functions and their plasma functions.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, awesome. Yeah, I definitely, definitely love to talk about that. I'm super curious the effects of them in the fastest state, like is it amplifying all of these beneficial effects? And then in the postprandial fed state, like you talked about, and you talked about in the paper, which is already naturally an inflammatory state by its very nature, is it more just mitigating damage versus supercharging the beneficial effects?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think that there's going to be both components to that, right? I think that, you know, you can use Mimeo and this formulation as a fasting mimetic. You can take it with food and it will help to prevent a lot of these negative impacts of eating. That's what we saw in our pilot clinical study. But while also recreating a lot of these beneficial effects of fasting, whereas you can also use the formulation as a fasting enhancer when you are fasting, right? So, you know, it was designed to mimic what happens in the body during a 36 hour fast, which, you know, on a daily basis, most people are not experiencing, right? If they're doing fasting, they're probably doing 16 eight or one meal a day or something like that. So that can really those molecules can help to, like you said, supercharge and jumpstart those benefits and even provide you some of the benefits of a longer term fast that you wouldn't actually experience in the shorter term fast, like the one meal a day or the 16 eight.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay. Okay. I just have a really quick, super rabbit hole question, but I thought it was really interesting in the study. The way it was posited was basically that this could be a good alternative for people who can't fast. I was wondering if the evolution of your thinking, like when you were doing it back then, were you also kind of anticipating that it might be, you know, for people who do fast, but they use it to either combat eating or enhance their natural fast, or were you really thinking of it in that terms of just for people who can't fast? I'm just curious, your mindset.

Chris Rhodes:
When we were doing it, I mean, my mindset, I'm not going to lie. My mindset was a little bit selfish at the time, right? I was like, like I said, I got mad that like my body wasn't doing these things. So I was like, I want to create something that, you know, gives me the ability to have these fasting, like benefits, even without being able to fast. But I do think that it's very like worth saying that yes, there are populations and who cannot fast, who it's not safe for them to do that. Or maybe it's not advisable, like especially elderly people, right? The people who could probably get the most benefit from these regenerative cellular effects, but who fasting is really not advisable because of all the problems with, you know, sarcopenia and frailty and, you know, um, like bone density and muscle wasting that they need the consistent calories in order to be able to sustain themselves. So I think that for older populations, the fasting mimetic is great to do because we really do want people to be able to get all these benefits without the pretty intense, the pretty intense effort that goes into a full 36 hour fast, and then even beyond that consistently doing a 36 hour fast to be able to get these benefits over a long period of time.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, no, it's awesome. I mean, even for me, I've I mean, people probably surprises people, but I have not done that many fasts that are longer than 24 hours, just a handful. And it's not pleasant for me. I don't do well. Okay, here's the thing. If the day was longer, so if it was like a 36 hour day, I could do it hands down. If it was a 48 hour day, I could probably do it hands down. But I can't sleep on an empty stomach. It just messes up my circadian rhythm. I've always thought that like, at the end of the day, oh, if I could just I could go to the 12 hours right now if I could just not sleep. So the point being is I'm actually I'm very much alert by this concept, because it's like, oh, maybe I could take this and I could, you know, get the potential benefits of a more extended fast without doing that actual 36 hour fast. I'm like very much alert by this. This is amazing.

Chris Rhodes:
Cool. And I agree with you. That was one of the hardest parts. So when we were doing the initial studies to figure out what the right timing was to look at for the larger clinical study, I was actually doing a 60 -hour fast and taking my blood throughout the time course of that fast to see, all right, where do we start to see the changes over from the postprandial state to more of the fasted state? Where does the glycogen disappear? When do we start to see these anti -inflammatory effects? When do we really see like the peak of these functional enhancements? During that 60 -hour fast, it was really difficult to sleep on both of the days, right, to get past the 48 -hour mark. And that was like the second day trying to go to sleep. That was the hardest because my body was, and I was like very terrified that I was going to actually die, right? I was like, if I go to sleep, I'm just convinced that I won't make up in the morning. And of course, like that didn't happen, right? But it's one of those weird things where, yeah, there's this funny psychological component to doing extended fast where it's like, I've never fasted this long before. I've never fasted this long before. Like, is this the hour that it all turns against me? But when you get out the other side of it, it's a very empowering thing because you really come out of it with this higher sense of control of your own body, your own impulses. And you get to realize that skipping a meal, like if I don't want to eat that pizza that somebody like brought into the workroom, right? Like I can just do that and it's going to be fine. Like I've gone 60 hours without eating before and I didn't die. So it just kind of gives you a lot more of that personal control and that empowerment to just, I don't know, take more agency in your food destiny, right?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I definitely feel it. One of the things I used to say to myself is, if I could do it one time, then I can do it 100 times because there's something about just knowing you can do it. And then the doors open, you can like totally do it again. But you have to just do it that first time. Yeah, that's the trick. And actually one other question about the, because you were just talking about, you know, you testing your own blood and things that you found. And the study was talking about how there was a lot of variability in the different responses between the people by as much as 14 times. What role did that play? So like, again, we're going to go through the four compounds. But for the four compounds, were some of them overwhelmingly, obviously elevated in everybody? Were there some where, you know, the odd person here didn't even have that one compound elevated? Like, what was the role of variability?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, that's a great question. So for the four that we actually ended up looking at, they were all universally upregulated. But yes, you varying degrees, right? Like some people had like, all right, I have maybe like a 2x increase in my circulation, right? Whereas other people were like, Yeah, I had a 7x increase in my circulation. But they were all across all people totally universally upregulated, because there are just certain obligate responses that the body has to do during a fast. And that's why I think it's really interesting to study fasting, because it's this evolutionarily conserved program within humans that, you know, you can track and you can measure and you can see and there's while there is of course going to be person to person variability, there's also going to be a certain set of these universal changes that happen, because if those changes don't happen, then we die.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, actually, I'll probably save this when we talk about Spermidine, like, I'd be curious how they were different based on people's baseline dietary intake of some of these things, you know, if that had an effect.

Chris Rhodes:
I mean, we definitely did analyze the starting metabolites and the people's diets and we made sure that like everybody was essentially eating the same thing before and after, right? That there wasn't any changes in the diet that they were consuming throughout the course of the study and that everything was pretty well matched. So there wasn't a ton of like, honestly, there wasn't a ton of sperm and intake just to begin with, right? Right? Americans have a very classically low intake of spermidine, especially when you consider something like a Mediterranean diet or a typical European diet. We're pretty deficient because we don't have a ton of whole grains typically, and we also don't have a ton of fermented food products in our day -to -day diets.

Melanie Avalon:
I'd love to dive more into that. One quick question about the diets. I'm super curious because you talked about it in the study and you talked about just now how you use this quote controlled habitual diet setup. And it was saying in the study that like to your knowledge is the first time that that's been used. Do you know if anybody else is going to use that? I'm just wondering if you're like starting a thing here, like a methodology. Did you create a methodology?

Chris Rhodes:
I mean, we did, we did create a methodology and you know, this is again coming from the nutrition background, right? Like people are, had they, they have different responses to different diets, right? So one of the big problems in nutrition research is that when you take people who are eating these very disparate diets and then put them all on one singular standardized diet, people are going to respond differently to that diet based on their, you know, genetics and their food preferences and the diets that their body have gotten used to eating and digesting and metabolizing. So when you put people on a standardized diet, there's always a certain period of adaptation that has to happen because it's essentially throwing the system out of its nice little bubble of homeostasis and into this whole new diet that it has to now learn how to properly absorb and digest and get used to. And since we were only doing a three day study, we did not have the time to get people adapted to a new standardized diet. We had to find a way to make sure that, you know, what the people were eating was going to be consistent on the fed day versus the refed day, but without actually altering what they would typically eat. So that's where we got the idea for a controlled habitual diet. So they come in, they eat just as they would, you know, if they weren't in the study on the first day, but all they have to do is just track exactly what they're eating. And then on the next eating day, they just adhere to that exact same diet and with no changes. So we knew that exactly what we saw and experienced on the first day of feeding was going to be what we saw and experienced on the refed day so that we could accurately track what the carryover effects of just the fasting was rather than having any other variables that are coming from the diet.

Melanie Avalon:
I was actually wondering when I was reading it, did they know when they were eating the first day and writing it down that they were going to be given back the list and told to eat that exactly again the second day?

Chris Rhodes:
Yes, they did. So they had knowledge of it going into it. We didn't just like spring it on them. So it wasn't... And we told them basically like, you know, just eat like a normal day. Like don't try and like be fancy about it. Don't do anything. Just whatever you would normally do, do that because you're going to have to do it again.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay. So cool. Okay. So these four compounds. So, so they are, okay. I got to learn how to pronounce these. Thankfully, they have acronyms. So OEA stands for, okay. So it's O -L, wait, do you want to say it?

Chris Rhodes:
It's Oleoylethanolamide, that's OEA.

Melanie Avalon:
Ollie, Ollie, Ollie, Ollie. Oh, can you say it again? How do you say it?

Chris Rhodes:
I know, it's the biggest tongue twister of all of them. Oleoylethanolamide

Melanie Avalon:
It's weird because looking at it doesn't quite, like, doesn't quite look like that. Okay, Oleoylethanolamide OEA. Okay, so OEA. So there's that one. And that one is...

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, so that one is, that one's produced by intestinal cells and it's involved in the gut -brain axis where it stimulates satiety, helps to suppress appetite. And then it's also a PPAR alpha activator, which means that it is promoting lipid metabolism within cells, so like fat -specific breakdown for energy utilization. Then that is really, really interesting because it's also one of the mechanisms by which your body helps to produce GLP1. So like there's been really interesting in vitro studies showing that OEA stimulates the secretion of GLP1, which is of course, you know, part of the whole hunger and satiety mechanism as well.

Melanie Avalon:
And so for GLP -1 things that people might be familiar with that because of Ozempic and GLP -1 agonists.

Chris Rhodes:
Right exactly i can i kinda like to think of Oleoylethanolamide as kind of like your body is natural i was in big to a certain degree right.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, very cool. And then trust that we should dive deeper into that or go over the four other ones. I'll ask one question about it. So I saw that it's a fatty acid derivative of oleic acid. Could it be a reason behind the benefits of high olive oil diets?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, I think that that's a really interesting question as well. And I would say yes, I think that there's definitely, there's definitely like, you know, big health and longevity effects to OEA, OEA is found in olive oil. And you know, when and it's been shown that when people consume a lot of oleic acid, OEA does also get upregulated in the system. So I would definitely say that OEA would be a component of something like why a Mediterranean diet has such great lifespan extension benefits. And we were the first one to really show that OEA has the ability to extend lifespan. So that was really exciting for us as well.

Melanie Avalon:
And it says it's also highly concentrated in organ meats.

Chris Rhodes:
Yep, definitely true as well. That's the nice thing about a lot of the fasting metabolites and the endogenous human metabolites that we're looking at is that, yes, they are a natural part of the human system and produced endogenously, but they're also found pretty widely throughout the food stream and in animal products and plant products.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so that's O -E -A, so really helping feelings of satiety and all of that. So then another one, hard to pronounce, P -E -A, how do we say that one?

Chris Rhodes:
So that one is palmitoylethanolamide. So same family of molecules as ole oil ethanolamide, but it's a derivative, a fatty amide derivative of palmitic acid. Okay. And that one is, it's actually, that's my favorite of the four. It has these really fascinating and wide reaching effects. I like to think of it as the body's kind of like rest and recovery molecule. So it's very potently anti-inflammatory. It has COX-1 and 2 inhibition effects, which is the same mechanism of action as like ibuprofen or aspirin, but then it's also a CB1, CB2 receptor agonist. So kind of behaves a little bit like your body's natural CBD and that it's going to create these mood elevation effects. It has effects on decreasing neuroinflammation, but also really interestingly pain relief effects as well. So really good clinical evidence for palmitoethanolamide being able to relieve pain, especially, you know, kind of like joint pain, nerve pain, things like fibromyalgia or diabetic neuropathy, things like that. So it's kind of, you know, it's kind of this little miracle molecule that has not only these great underlying cellular health benefits, but then also gives you kind of these effects that you can feel. It's also was just recently in a new clinical study shown to be able to enhance cognition in college students, which is again, one of those big things where it's like you're taking already young, healthy people and, you know, enhancing their cognitive functionality, which is really impressive.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's super cool. I had notes. I don't know if this was from your website. I think this was from your website. It was talking about how it has even been posited to be a natural CBD alternative for athletes, for example.

Chris Rhodes:
Absolutely. It's WADA compliant and has a lot of these similar effects of CBD because it signals through the same cannabinoid receptors. But yeah, it's an endocannabinoid, part of your endocannabinoid system. So all natural to the human body won't cause any flags on a drug test or anything like that. And your body just naturally knows how to use it, break it down so there's no real negative effects of it as well.

Melanie Avalon:
That is super cool. Okay, so foods we would normally get that from, primarily legumes.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah. Yeah. palmitoylethanolamide is one of those ones that you don't find quite as readily in the food stream. You know, it's going to be produced from palmitic acid, but there's a lot of things that are going to be produced from palmitic acid. So taking palmitic acid is not like the best way to get the palmitoyl ethanolamide. So that one I usually tell people it's better to supplement with because it's a lot more controllable.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. And then circling back to the one we mentioned earlier, which is spermidine. So we were talking about how we met at the biohacking conference. The prior year I had gone to the biohacking conference in Orlando. And I feel like spermidine people had, I feel like it's really in the past like, maybe two years that people have started talking about it more. And I never really had looked into it. And then I ended up hanging out for a long time with one of the big spermidine supplement companies, some of the people from it at the conference last year. That made me really intrigued because, you know, they were really good at pitching the benefits of it. That said, since then, so I've looked at it like a little bit more. But then since then, I actually was reading, I interviewed Dr. Michael Greger. I don't know if you know him, he's really big in the vegans here. But he has a new book out called How Not to Age. And reading his chapter on spermidine, I was like, whoa, maybe this does seem really, really powerful. He was talking about how he was talking about one study where they looked at all of these different kind of similar to your study in a way where they looked at all of these different, but it wasn't testing blood or anything. I was looking at people's food intake and looking at all these different compounds and what was the highest one correlated to basically good health outcomes. And it was spermidine, like hands down. I remember that study. Oh, you do. Okay, awesome. So yeah, so spermidine. So again, this is something we actually can get in our diet. And it seems pretty evident that, you know, certain healthy populations have higher levels compared to, you know, unhealthy populations, which are lower. So, okay, so spermidine. So, so what is it? What's the difference in getting it from food versus being created in our body? And what are the benefits?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, absolutely. So spermidine is a really interesting molecule, probably best known for its ability to stimulate autophagy. That is your body's cellular recycling process, essentially. So that's the way that your cell kind of breaks down dysfunctional organelles or faulty proteins and kind of cleans it up, breaks them down to their constitutive parts so that you can then use it to create new functional versions. And it's a way that cells both optimize their functionality from a removing dysfunction point of view while also increasing their metabolic efficiency by taking those building blocks and then being able to use them to create new things without having to actually have any net new resources available. So obviously, it's a very important process that happens in fasting. Right? You're getting rid of all the bad stuff that isn't serving you while also gaining resources that you wouldn't otherwise have in order to make new things that the cell needs to survive. So spermidine became very popular because it can do that. And it was first popularized kind of like as almost a fasting memetic because of its ability to enhance autophagy. And autophagy has become very synonymous with fasting. It's a breakdown product of arginine. So just a, you know, simple amino acid and yeah, really highly available in wheat germ than certain algaes and fermented food products from the bacterial synthesis of it. So very much a component of probiotics as well.

Melanie Avalon:
The last one is actually a form of B3, nicotinamide.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, that's right, nicotinamide. And so yeah, we think of nicotinamide as basically a broad spectrum NAD plus precursor, right? So it's the thing that, you know, when you take it into your body, it's going to be converted into NMN, it's going to be converted into NR, it's going to be converted into NAD. So taking that as your precursor molecule kind of helps to increase concentration of, you know, all three of the big ones that are important in the anti -aging and longevity space. And the reason why the NAD plus is really important, especially in like a fasting mimetic blend is because NAD is one of the main mechanisms that your body or your cells sense their energy state. And that has to do with the balance between two molecules NAD and NADH. So when you have high levels of NAD and low levels of NADH, that basically tells your cells that there's not a lot of energy around and we should start making these, you know, DNA modifications, these protein translation modifications, these functional modifications that skew more towards these kind of like fasting pathways, this metabolic efficiency and these pro longevity and survival mechanisms. So the thinking behind taking supplements like NAD precursors is that we can increase the levels of NAD within cells without actually having to, you know, reduce our actual energy intake. Essentially, we're like tricking ourselves into thinking that we have less energy than we actually do to help them activate, you know, this, these fasting pathways. And so when you have that in the formulation, like Mimeo, it makes it easier for all of the other components to do their job, because they're supposed to be existing in a fasting environment. And the increase in NAD plus is basically telling the cell like, okay, it's okay, we are fasting. So let everybody else do the thing they're supposed to be doing.

Melanie Avalon:
So on the website, so I'm a little bit unclear, are there different versions of nicotinamide? Like when you call it on the website 1 -M -N -A, is that a certain version of nicotinamide or is that a synonymous?

Chris Rhodes:
Right. So one methyl nicotinamide is like an even further down breakdown product of nicotinamide. So for a very long time, people thought that one methyl nicotinamide was just a waste product, right? It was like, okay, we have the NAD metabolism. It eventually gets broken down into one methyl nicotinamide and then one methyl nicotinamide is broken down and excreted. Essentially, it's kind of like the last stage of nicotinamide and NAD metabolism. But really interesting new research has come out that's basically shown that one M &A has a lot of interesting bioactive capabilities in itself. It's very anti -inflammatory. It has these cardio protective effects. It has these like exercise, like enhancement effects, these energy enhancement effects. And that's actually the molecule that we found in the original clinical study of the discovery of the fasting metabolites that worked within this synergistic combination of spermidine, PEA, and OEA. So the reason why we use nicotinamide in our formulation at the end of the day is because we're kind of getting the most bang bang for our buck. We're helping to increase NAD and our NMN and one methyl nicotinamide, all at the same time, just through one molecule.

Melanie Avalon:
So it contains nicotinamide or it contains that downstream metabolite, 1 -Mminin -A.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, it contains nicotinamide. So it contains the upstream precursor, and then we confirmed in our pilot clinical study that when you take nicotinamide, it increases the circulating levels of one methyl nicotinamide.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, gotcha. Also, I'm curious because there is so much the NAD world is so confusing, I think.

Chris Rhodes:
It's a little fraught, that's for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
You know, because there's NMN, NR, nicotinamide, then people taking straight NAD through IVs or injections, or I've recently, well, not recently, in the past year or so, I've been using patches, which I really, really love. A question though, because like I mentioned earlier, Dr. Greger's book, and he actually had a really, really good overview of all the different precursors. He had a section on nicotinamide, and he talked about how it could potentially, while it activates sirtuins, it could actually potentially be a sirtuin inhibitor because of a negative feedback loop system. Like basically he was saying, if the body senses higher levels of nicotinamide, it assumes there's enough and can actually shut down that process. Do you know if that's an issue at all?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, that's a really good question. I remember I remember reading that study as well. And I haven't found it to actually be an issue. So when you when you actually read it through, like there, there are problems with the like the pathway of the nad metabolism, essentially, because everything and everything operates on a feedback loop, right, where, okay, if we have a bunch of nad, then we're going to shunt nicotinamide metabolism away from nad production into maybe something like nmn production or nr production or, or even just going downstream to the one methyl nicotinamide production. But your body can still increase nad levels, you know, beyond its natural capacity. And you can see that in all of all of the clinical studies that have been that have been done with most of the nad precursors is that when you have when you take nicotinamide, when you take nr, when you take nmn, you do still get this like big increase in the nad plus levels.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Yeah. It's a confusing world, but it's nice to know. So in your study, you tested nicotinamide independently and synergistically with the compounds? Yes, that's correct. And you saw these beneficial effects. Awesome.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we saw the we saw the lifespan extension effects. We saw the clinical effects. We saw the cellular effects.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, okay. Okay, so that was a deep dive into these four ingredients. And how did you decide the concentration to use?

Chris Rhodes:
That's a great question. So this was actually based on the pilot clinical study that we did. So this was designed to be like a dosing and pharmacokinetic study, but then also, you know, a proof of concept for the functionality of the formulation. So what we did was we had five people come in and eat a standardized breakfast alongside a placebo control. And then for a period of, you know, six hours after that, we were taking their blood and looking at their plasma functionalities and their cellular functionalities like we did before in the fasting discovery study. So we did that for a standardized breakfast for the placebo control. And then we had those same people come in after a washout period and eat that same standardized breakfast, but alongside a alongside Mimeo and in different concentrations. So we did a low dose and medium dose and a high dose. And then we looked at their plasma functionalities again. And what we saw was when people ate this standardized breakfast on its own, there was this big loss of plasma functionality, right? Like we were talking about before, that's the effect of the postprandial state. So instead of their plasma became pro -inflammatory, became less antioxidant, it became less cardio protective. But when we did that same standardized breakfast, but with supplementation with Mimeo, we found that we could not only prevent all of that loss of function, but then actually add gains of function on top of that, that mimicked what we saw during fasting. So instead of being pro -inflammatory, their plasma became anti -inflammatory and antioxidant and cardio protective. And all of that was happened in the low dose of the formulation that we were trying. But you did get progressive benefits from the medium dose and the high dose as well.

Melanie Avalon:
the low dose was like the version that you have in the supplement form, and then the high dose was just dosing it higher.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, exactly. So basically, the low dose was what we had in the supplement form. And then like the medium dose was 2x that concentration, and the high dose was 3x that concentration. We've had two different formulations of NIMEO. The original one was based off of that pharmacokinetic study that was 400 milligrams of PEA, 300 milligrams of OEA, 5 milligrams of spermidine, and 500 milligrams of nicotinamide. So that was what we originally went out with and started selling to people and saw really great effects in that clinical study. Then as we progressed throughout our first year of sales, we started partnering up with some longevity clinical partners around the country, kind of looking at how these markers are being affected by MIMEO, what's the best way to use it. And a lot of our clinical partners actually started using a dose of three NIMEO capsules per day in order to help wean people off of the GLP -1 agonists like cosmetic and weak OV. And that's because of the appetite suppression effects of the OEA. So they were using a slightly higher dose to achieve this more clinical effect and more of those tangible effects you can feel. And so based off of that, we actually thought, all right, so we know that the first formula works in the underlying cellular components, but this higher dose, this three capsules per day seems to really be working to give people more of those tangible benefits, the appetite suppression, the mood enhancement, the cognition enhancement, things like that. So we did a reformulation to what is now the current formulation of MIMEO to increase the bioactives by 50%. So our new formulation is now 600 milligrams of PEA, 400 milligrams of OEA, 8 milligrams of spermidine, and 250 of nicotinamide.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, wait, and what did you say the surrounding was before?

Chris Rhodes:
It was five milli-

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, five. I said 500. I was like, okay. That's a... Okay. So it was five.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, that's a big reduction. No, no, yeah, it's actually yeah, that 50% increase for Sperm Redeem. Gotcha.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's super cool that they were using it with the Weaning people off of Osempic.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah. And that's what, you know, that's, that's the great thing about these molecules is that, you know, they, they have those, those tangible benefits in addition to the cellular ones, right? That's, that's always been my, one of my critiques about kind of what's out there in the longevity space right now is that a lot of them are operating on that, you know, more of the cellular level and less of the, what I would call treating the quote unquote, you know, symptoms of aging, right? Those like metabolic disruptions that can happen, like the aches and pains of actually getting older, like the memory problems that can crop up. So that's why I'm like, I, I know I'm biased, but I really love the Mimeo formulation because it's not, it's tackling both of those things at once, both the symptoms of aging and the underlying root causes.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow. So how do you recommend people take this? Should they take it with all of their meals while fasting? Can they overtake it? When you did that study where you were looking at the increasing amount, did you see any diminishing returns or with higher and higher doses at all?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, we definitely found a plateau, especially at like the higher dosage, right? But that's something that, you know, most people wouldn't be able to take anyway, right? Because at that point, we were using like a gram of nicotinamide and 1 .2 grams of PEA. So like really high concentrations that, you know, probably wouldn't be feasible on a day to day basis anyway. We definitely recommend daily use of the products, because that's what we have seen has the most consistent benefit. When you look at the clinical studies of the individual ingredients, it's always daily supplementation over the course of, you know, eight weeks, 12 weeks, six months, whatever it is, depending on the study. And that's where you see these, you know, these changes from baseline to the end point in the study. That's also, you know, where we saw the best lifespan extension, right? We started the C. elegans off, you know, early in their life stage and then kept them consistently on the formulation. And that's where we saw the 96%. So we don't really recommend cycling, although, you know, if people want to cycle, that's totally fine. But it's unnecessary just because, you know, on a day to day basis, your body wouldn't be experiencing these metabolites, right? Because they're only really elevated during a 36 hour fast. So you don't really get, you don't really get adapted to them over time.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so there's no like downregulation of endogenous production of or anything like that

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, because unless you are somehow fasting for 36 hours every day, you're not going to be highly producing these molecules anyway.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so how do you personally take it?

Chris Rhodes:
So I like to take it as a fasting enhancer. So I still do my one meal a day protocol, but I'll take my Mimeo in the first thing in the morning when I wake up, usually with green tea. And I feel like that just really helps me get through my day. I love the one meal a day lifestyle for me because it's very much like I get to wake up, I get to go and I get to be productive all day. I'm not thinking about food or distracted with anything else, I'm very much in the zone. And then when that's done, I get to kind of decompress with what I like to call a big food reward at the end.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too!

Chris Rhodes:
I'm like, this is what my effort was all for. And yeah, and then it's just nice having the freedom of knowing that, you know, I'm going to have all of my calories in this one sitting. So it can, you know, it can be more of a feast and less of like, I feel like I was, you know, just having small portions throughout the entire day that feels more like, I call it food teasing. And it's not my favorite.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I could not agree more. One of my favorite things about the one meal a day approach and having it at the end of the day is that I like to be able to just enjoy my food and not have the stressors of I need to be working or I need, you know, there's something else I need to be doing right now. Like it's nice to like have finished the day and have that behind you and then just focus on relaxing and eating. It works so well for me.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, I was I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid. And so one of the main things that they do for you when you have that as kind of like a coping mechanism is to make sure that you have your spaces for things right where it's like, Okay, cool. Like this is your desk. That's your workspace. Like when you're at your desk, you focus on work and you don't do anything else except for focus on work when you're at that desk. And then you have another place. That's like, this is your fun space. And when you're there, you don't focus on anything else but fun. And so like that really helps to kind of give your mind like context and focus in where it when it needs to focus and then let go when it when it can. So I like to kind of structure my day in that very compartmentalized way as well where it's like when we're here when it's when we're doing this like this is what we're focused on and then we can have that food reward and that decompression at the end of the day.

Melanie Avalon:
actually related since it sounds like you're eating, you're doing an evening eating window at the end of the day. It relates to what we were saying earlier when you were talking about the the methodology you used with the habitual diet where people have to adapt to a certain diet. I read a study and I've got to find it because I keep referencing it so much. It was looking at people's eating window timing because there's this idea that you know eating late is not good for your sleep and they found that that was true but only if you weren't used to eating late. So like habitual people who ate late it was not a negative impact on their sleep which I thought was interesting and I like knowing that.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, and I think that's totally true. And it's it relates back to fasting as well, because it's all very much tied to your circadian rhythms, right? So your circadian rhythms and your hunger responses are very intimately linked to each other. And when you establish a pattern of eating throughout the day, then your body learns when to expect food. And when it learns that it'll also increase your hunger, like responses at the same time. So one of the cool things about fasting is that you can really reset that system where if you train your body to not have an expectation of food on a regular basis, then you don't really get hungry throughout the day because your body doesn't know like the timings of when to try to make you feel hungry.

Melanie Avalon:
Exactly. I just find it so, so freeing. It's so amazing. And now I'm just really excited about the potential here of, you know, enhancing my own fast since like I was saying earlier, I don't really ever do longer than a day. So this is beyond fascinating.

Chris Rhodes:
And then even beyond that too, you know, like with, there's the, there's the underlying cellular component to it, of course, but then there's also the ways that Mimeo can just make fasting like easier and more palatable at the same time, you know, we get a lot of people who, especially women who do shorter term intermittent fasting, like the 16 eight, but you know, something like one meal a day is very intimidating because there's just a lot of hunger responses that go, that go into that. And Mimeo with its appetite suppression effects can be really helpful for pushing people past where they could ordinarily go, right? We've had tons of people who are doing 16 eight where it's like, I took Mimeo at the beginning of my fast and I didn't have any problem getting to like 24 hours. So really being able to make that process easier and more enjoyable because you also have like the mood elevation effects that happen and the energizing effects that happen as well to help kind of combat the typical, you know, fatigue that you can get from fasting.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Okay. Well, I will go ahead and mention it now. So for listeners, if they would like to get Mimeo, and we can clarify how it's spelled, which by the way, how did you come up with the name?

Chris Rhodes:
Mimeo is a combination of mimic and biology together, and that speaks to, you know, our underlying biomimetic approach, basically, you know, taking what the body is naturally doing and then finding a way to recreate it on demand.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, awesome. And so that's spelled M -I -M -I -O. So we made a link for listeners. If they go to ifpodcast .com slash Mimeo, M -I -M -I -O, and use the coupon code ifpodcast, you can get 20% off. I think that's your first order, I believe. Yes. So that's awesome, 20%. I'm really, really excited for people to try this and let us know what they experience. What's the main thing that you hear from people that they experience? The appetite suppression, that the fasting is easier.

Chris Rhodes:
Absolutely. Yeah. Fasting is easier. Appetite suppression. Interestingly, what we also really hear from people is performance enhancement. So one of our investors actually invested in Mimeo because, you know, we gave him a sample. He was going to go do a cycling course with his friends and he ended up, you know, he took Mimeo maybe like a half an hour before he actually went to do it and told us that like his, it was one of like the best rides he ever had. He set a personal record. He beat out all of his friends. He could like just go for longer without having any of the soreness. He recovered better the next day. So that was the reason why he invested in Mimeo was because he could take it, feel the benefits of it. And we've seen that kind of recapitulated in a lot of other folks as well, especially the higher tier athletes who are doing it. We were just on Ben Greenfield's podcast and he was basically, he was basically telling us that in the two months that he took Mimeo, he was able to put on 10 pounds of muscle, which is something that, you know, really hard to do, especially without, you know, some kind of, you know, biohack into the system. Right.

Melanie Avalon:
Wow, that's incredible. Is that episode air?

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, no, I just filmed it last week, but I think by the time that this episode airs, that episode will have aired.

Melanie Avalon:
That's super cool. I have actually never interviewed him and so he's coming on my other show in a few months which is exciting. I've got to read his book though, it's so long.

Chris Rhodes:
He's got a lot of knowledge, that's for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So again, so listeners can go to ifpodcast .com slash Mimeo, M -I -M -I -O. Use the coupon code ifpodcast to get 20% off. What is the... Because I know it's gone through a few formulations. Do you know what the future is? Do you think there'll be like another formulation in the future or another version of it? Or what's the future of the company?

Chris Rhodes:
For the fasting mimetic, there will probably be future formulations. You know, we have that data set of those 300 metabolites from the fasting study. And, you know, of that, we were able to screen through about that dozen, but that leads, you know, over 275 targets, right? That haven't had any research that have been done on them yet. So it gives us this big green field to kind of go through and see if there are other molecules that could fit into this synergistic formulation that no one's really ever heard before, right, but are still these natural, safe human molecules. So really, you know, using that as a research platform to build out the fasting mimetic. But in the vein of our biomimetic approach, and what we want NIMYA to ultimately be, is in the same way that we ran this process with fasting, we can run it with other interesting regenerative states in the body. So like exercise, for example, making an exercise mimetic or sleep or cold exposure or meditation, like, you know, really teasing out these interesting regenerative systems and regenerative processes and states in the body and finding ways that we can recreate those benefits on demand.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Wow. Well, I'm really, really excited about this. This is so cool. And I'll be completely honest, like when I first saw it, I was intrigued and alert. I was a little bit, I guess I was a little bit worried about, ironically, this discouraging people from fasting because it's like, oh, here's fasting in a pill. Now you don't have to fast. But I think, well, A, diving deep into the science of all of this, these ingredients, their effects just sound incredible. And like you were saying, it's not only can it potentially combat the inflammatory state of the eating state that we go into, but it can potentially enhance people's fasting. And I love that that's the focus here. And that, you know, we're not saying don't fast, take this pill. We're saying use this to enhance your fast and potentially combat some of the inflammatory effects of eating. So it's all an add -on and an addition to, you know, the incredibleness of intermittent fasting, unless you're one of those case studies that we talked about earlier where, you know, you can't fast. I basically just really, really love and appreciate the enhancement potential of this and the messaging surrounding that.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, absolutely. And I would say to like, for people who are more of the hardcore folks, right, who are like, Okay, I'm doing like a three to five day fast, like, you know, every couple of months, right? You know, this is something that can help to like, you know, sustain and enhance those benefits as well. Because, you know, you can't three to five day fast for the rest of your life, right? You got to have those periods in between where you are actually eating, and Mimeo can be really beneficial to, you know, help create those fasting like benefits, even during the times when you can't fast.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, this is awesome. Thank you, Chris. This is just so amazing. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on for listeners?

Chris Rhodes:
No, I think that we covered everything really happy.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. So again, so listeners go to IFPodcast .com slash Mimeo, M -I -M -I -O, use the coupon code IFPodcast to get 20% off your first order. And friends, definitely, I would love to hear your experience with this. So definitely write into us, let us know what you experience, you know, share it in our Facebook groups. I'm just I'm just really excited. And thank you for for doing what you're doing and drawing attention to, A, drawing attention to the incredible things that happen in our body while we're fasting. And thank you for doing those studies and, you know, bringing light to that. And then on top of that, making this product that people can take to really, you know, benefit from all of that tangibly. So thank you. This is awesome. And hopefully we'll get to see each other again next year at the next Biohiking Conference in Austin.

Chris Rhodes:
Yeah, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, awesome. Well, have a good rest of your day and I will talk to you later.

Chris Rhodes:
Perfect. Thanks so much, Melanie. I really appreciate you.

Melanie Avalon:
Thanks, Chris, bye.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

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Jul 14

Episode 378: Muscle Building, High Protein Diets, Weight Gain, Digestive Enzymes, Betaine HCL, Supplements, Fasting Over 40, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes: a 3-year progressive study

Effect of time-restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults: A systematic review

Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

LMNT: For fasting or low-carb diets electrolytes are key for relieving hunger, cramps, headaches, tiredness, and dizziness. With no sugar, artificial ingredients, coloring, and only 2 grams of carbs per packet, try LMNT for complete and total hydration. Be sure to try the new LMNT Sparkling — a bold, 16-ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

MD LOGIC: Get 10% off at mdlogichealth.com with the code IFPODCAST!

Go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code SAVE50 to get $50 off!

Listener Q&A: Stephanie - I’ve heard that fasting is not good as you get older? True?

Listener Feedback: Susan - My mother is 78, she’s been fasting for 5 years. She said she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her 40’s and 50’s.

Listener Feedback: Karen - I am 64 and have been fasting for about 5 years. I feel great!

Listener Q&A: Lizzie - What are the health benefits for 70+ years?

The effects of intermittent fasting regimens in middle-age and older adults: Current state of evidence

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 378 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 378 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Things are good. I was just telling you that I feel like I'm finally really getting back into my rhythm with work and balancing, you know, having the two kids now and the five month old and the toddler and just feeling like I'm getting my brain back partly. And big thanks to intermittent fasting for my interviewing. And last week was like the first week I felt like, wow, all the interviews went exactly as I wanted them to. Everything flowed well with work. I'm getting really organized again. Like it just feels really good. And it's taken a little bit of time to get here, but I'm feeling really excited about it. I had a really interesting interview last week and I was thinking about you so much preparing about this because I was listening to, so I interviewed Dr. John Jaquish and I had never interviewed him before. And he's a really interesting, he is a character. I was going to say character, but yes. Yeah. And I mean, if you follow him on Instagram, which I started following him last week when I was getting ready for the interview and I was like, he kind of projects a certain persona, you know, of like what he wants to put out into the world, like a lifestyle kind of thing, like a male influencer, let's say, if you're not following him already. But there was this great interview with Dave Asprey, one of your favorite people, and he was interviewing John. And it was a really interesting podcast because it was one of those interviews where it felt like they were just talking on the phone and nobody else was there, you know, kind of like when we talk. We're just dropping all these really interesting things that I wanted to ask you about. And if you knew about, okay, so they started talking about basically their diets and what they're eating. And Dr. Jaquish was, he's wanting to get a little bit more lean. So he was talking about the things that he was doing. And he does OMAD carnivore style, like he's doesn't eat all day. He does what we do on this podcast. And then he has a huge amount of ribeye steak for dinner. I mean, he eats a lot of meat for dinner. So huge protein meals and mostly steak, mostly carnivore. And he's someone who's very well versed on the research, researcher on exercise, physique performance, body composition. And he's an inventor for listeners. If you're not familiar, he invented a couple of devices, one of them that helps people with osteoporosis.

Melanie Avalon:
We created OsteoStrong, which is very well known.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And one of his early partners and investors in it was Tony Robbins, who just called him and said, I want your machine. I want your prototype. So really interesting. And he also created the X3 bar, which is this machine for gaining weight, which I also want to ask you about if you ever tried it.

Melanie Avalon:
have it. It's really interesting because I had him on the show as well. It's bands, essentially. It's like bands for resistance. And he has a whole book about... His book is called Weightlifting as a Waste of Time. I remember when I got the pitch for him to come on the show, I was like, this looks... I was definitely judgmental. I was like, this looks like he's just trying to sell something. I was actually really surprised reading the book, what all I learned, and then interviewing him. He really knew his stuff and the science behind it. And what was interesting is every person, so his X3 system, I've mentioned it to quite a few different people in the sphere who are well known. He's come up in conversation. And every time it's come up, they've said, yes, X3. If you actually do it, it really works. And it's super short. The workout is 10 minutes or something.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, so do you like you're not much of a weights person, otherwise you would use it?

Melanie Avalon:
Well, A, now that we're talking about it, I really feel like I should. I am so not schooled and nuanced in the applying techniques to your muscles to build muscle. I was worried I was going to do it wrong. That's just me being lazy. He has a lot of videos. So I definitely could have should actually probably watch the videos and do it with the videos to make sure I'm doing it right. The program, it's these bands that you set up in it. The point is he talks about how it creates the optimal amount of contraction with minimal and I don't know all the terminology and I should. It's been a while since I interviewed him, but with minimal stress, essentially, you basically get all of the signaling input that you need to build muscle without the potential negative effects that happen with weightlifting.

Vanessa Spina:
the way I understand it is that we have different strengths at different points of when our limbs are extended and the bands and the bar help you basically meet each area of potential strength that you would have based on where you're at. So if your arm is extended back, you have a lot more strength than if your arm is fully extended. And so it's going to give you way more resistance when you're extended back than when you're fully extended. Whereas when you're lifting a weight, you're always dealing with the same amount of resistance, even though you have variability in your amount of strength. So you're pushing yourself harder where you should, which basically stimulates more muscle growth. Are you going to try?

Melanie Avalon:
Do you have the system?

Vanessa Spina:
I have the same thoughts, like I'm afraid to use it wrong and hurt myself.

Melanie Avalon:
And the thing is, like I said, he has so many videos. So like, I don't want to scare people away. Like, I think if you, if this sounds like something that would work for you, especially because it is very time efficient, it's like I said, very short workouts. He has a lot of resources. So I think you could watch the videos and do it correctly. I just personally was at the time and still now I felt overwhelmed at like learning how to do it, but I probably honestly should bite the bullet and learn how to do it. Like I said, I do think it could be a really great, efficient way to really support muscle maths and strength. Also just reading his book. Like I said, I thought his book was going to be just selling something, but I was really impressed with everything I learned about the science of why it works. And then when I was talking, like I said, to other friends in the sphere who are also well known and they were like, yeah, it's, it really works. I was like, Oh, okay. So if listeners would like to get their own system, we made a link for you guys. You can go to ifpodcast.com/X3 and use the coupon code save50 to get $50 off. So that's save five zero. So what did they talk about in the show?

Vanessa Spina:
So yeah, I think he's a really fasting individual. So I was really interested when, you know, he started talking about how he does OMAD. He mostly eats protein with some fat, obviously, if he's having ribeye, but he does keto. He does like a high protein modified keto diet. And I thought that was fascinating. He also does these three day long dry fasts and he's been doing that. So kind of lion diet, lion diet, similar situation. And so he was asking Dave about, you know, Dave's like been leaning out a lot. He said he's super lean and they were hanging out recently and he, so he was talking about what he was doing. And Dave was saying that basically he does the same thing. He eats a hundred grams of protein at least at a meal, usually OMAD, but then he started eating more. And then they started talking about the new study that we were just talking about that came out about how there's no upper limit on protein synthesis. Oh, they were talking about that? Yes. So that I think the study had just came out when they did the interview. So they were saying how, how great it was, you know, also for people who like doing OMAD and you know, that you could basically, you're not just going to use 25 grams out of the hundred grams and then oxidize or burn off the rest. You're going to use it all and you can have most of those amino acids available for uptake for your muscles. So that was really interesting, but then it got more and more interesting because Dave said that what he's doing now is as he was doing high fat keto, he was losing so much weight and he got so lean that his team started telling him he needed to put some weight on because it was making him look old and he's supposed to be like this longevity expert. And so he said now he, he's trying this new diet to put weight on and he's eating three to 400 grams of carbonate with the high protein, like a hundred to 200 grams of protein. I think he was doing 200 grams of protein a day, two meals of a hundred grams of protein. And he said his HB1C was great. His triglycerides were great, like 60 or something. And he was doing it basically to put on weight, which is ironic. I'm not sure if he has though, but Dr. John Jake, which was really shocked, you know, that he was doing that because he's like the bulletproof guy. He's the keto guy, right? And now he's eating three to 400 grams of carb, which again made me think of you.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm like, wait a minute, that's my diet. That's like literally my diet you just listed. Did he copy it from you? I was actually thinking, I was like, have we talked about our diet? I probably have talked to him about it.

Vanessa Spina:
Funny because his idea of it was to gain some weight, that he wanted to put some fat back on his face and that's why he was doing it.

Melanie Avalon:
So when you say weight, you mean fat, you don't mean muscle?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, like his team wants him to put some more like fat or something collagen or something in his face so that he doesn't because that's, I think that is one thing that can happen when people get really, really lean. It leans out your face and they found that it was making him look older and he was getting some like feedback on that. So it was just funny that he was doing high carb, high protein to gain some fat, but I don't think that he has because he doesn't look any thicker to me anyway. But Dr. John Jake, which was shocked that he was doing this diet. So I brought it up to him. And when I interviewed Dr. John Jake, which he said, yeah, he, so when John, when Dave said that to him, John Jake, which said what the F and also he sourced so many times honor episode that I had to text my editor during it. And then he realized I was doing that. He said, I just hit my F limit, my F bomb limit. Didn't I? Like it was crazy how many times he said that F word, but we're going to have to try to add bleeps or something because there were so many that we can't like cut it out. So it was really interesting just to hear all these things of how they were each approaching, you know, diet. And oh, so then Dave said, when he eats his a hundred gram protein meals, he eats them with tons and tons of enzymes because he says, you know, if you're eating all the protein, you still may not be getting all the amino acids and you really need to eat all the enzymes. And I remember that you do that. I take a little bit with my high protein meals, but I remember you take a lot and I wanted to ask you about that.

Melanie Avalon:
So I take betaine HCl, yeah. So I use that and I use digestive enzymes and they are a game changer for me. They help so much with digestion.

Vanessa Spina:
So I take one gram of HCl, and then I take three of the mass zymes by bi -optimizers, but I don't know what that is equivalent to. I really can't wait for you to make some enzymes, though.

Melanie Avalon:
So my currently big project has been spirulina. I think when this comes out, spirulina should be out, which is very exciting. But that's some sort of all -consuming. But my next really big project I want to do in the supplement world is I want to do a digestive supplement line. I'm so excited. I have a very specific take on it that I want to do that I'm not really seeing anybody do. So I basically want to, I'm not gonna tell you yet what it is, but I basically want to make the enzymes that I currently take and love. And tailor them towards this idea that I have. People do love mass enzymes but by optimizers. I currently have been taking pure encapsulations, their betaine HCL pepsin, as well as their digestive enzymes ultra. And I really, really like those. So the betaine HCL has 520 milligrams of HCL, 21 milligrams of pepsin in one capsule. So you said you take how much?

Vanessa Spina:
I take one gram of HCL right now, the start

Melanie Avalon:
the meal. I'm a really bad person to ask. I don't count and I just take intuitively what feels right which is a lot of them. Yeah, I really don't count and I don't want to put a number out there because I take a lot.

Vanessa Spina:
Like mass times, they recommend three, but I'm wondering, like, how many is Dave taking? How many are you taking?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so okay, with I can comment more on the, well, actually, I'll comment first on the HCL a little bit more. The test that people say to do is basically like, take the HCL, keep taking capsules until you feel burning. Step back from that because that means you're at your limit. And by the way, this is not this is not you don't have to like worry, because that sounds really scary, like burning. It's just because it's it's sounds really dangerous. It's just essentially stomach acid. So it's okay, you're basically, you're basically realizing where you're at the point of enough stomach acid. What's interesting for me is I really feel like I could just keep taking the HCL and I would never even I don't really ever, ever get any burning and I take a ton but I'm eating it with massive protein meals and I wonder if that has something to do with it. Because it's, you know, just digesting the protein basically.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I had a naturopath on who said that exact same thing. I can't remember his name in this moment, but he was great. And he said, he gets people to do 500 milligrams and then one gram, 1 .5. Like just keep adding until you get to that point where you get some, like, is it a little bit of acid reflux or something?

Melanie Avalon:
Ironically, it shouldn't be acid reflux because you're digesting your food, so it's not really creating that issue of coming back up, which is acid reflux, but you'll feel a burning in your stomach, basically, which sounds scary again, but it'll be okay. What's interesting though, because I'm thinking about this more, I actually require a little bit less. If I do a complete carnivore meal, I actually require a little bit less than when I'm having it with all the fruit and cucumbers because I think the produce dilutes that HCl a bit. The pH is probably different that it's combating compared to when I am just eating meat and it's just that substrate, I require actually less HCl. For the enzymes, I know Matt and Wade at Bioptimizers, I mean, they talk about this a lot, how they'll take just tons and tons and tons, and I take tons and tons and tons. I take, like I said, currently the pure encapsulations, digestive enzymes, ultra. I don't experience any negative side effects from over. You don't get like a burning or anything with the enzymes like you do with HCl. The way I see it is that the more I add, the better I'm digesting the protein, and if there is like residual enzymes, that's just digesting more stuff and maybe even having a systemic effect. Maybe not because it's with my food. So I would say for listeners, if they feel like they're taking enzymes and it's not quite working, well, first of all, look at the quality and the brand that you're taking, but then beyond that, definitely try upping your dose and see if it helps. I take handfuls of this stuff. You said you take how many of the enzymes? Like a couple of capsules, three.

Vanessa Spina:
The massimes by optimizers, it says to take three within meal.

Melanie Avalon:
If you're struggling with the digestion, I would definitely try upping it. There's like two approaches you could go, long and slow, so you could try adding a little bit more each meal or Vanessa, you could try a meal where you just take a ton and see what happens and that would actually be like one meal that would give you a lot of feedback. It would give you a lot of feedback on what taking a lot does.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, see, I think most people probably need enzymes when they're doing high protein because like for myself, you know, most of my adult life, I was vegetarian. So I think my stomach acid got pretty low. And so did my all the proteases, lipases, I was barely eating protein or fat. So I took them a lot when I started doing high protein. But now I'm wondering, like, is my body actually breaking all the protein I eat down? Because there's so much of it. And then am I getting all the amino acids? So I'm just like trying to figure out, for those of us who eat, you know, the big protein boluses, like, there's no, no one ever talks about this, right? Like, you don't learn this, I didn't learn it in nutrition, school or anything in sports nutrition, either. Like, how do you make sure that you are actually getting all the amino acids into your bloodstream, you know, and you're not just like having them all missing out on some of them, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
such a good point and I do think it probably a good place to start is I mean it sounds vague but like do you feel like you're digesting at all well or do you feel on the flip side like you have digestive issues or is it feels like you're sitting in your stomach right like blowing

Vanessa Spina:
gas indications would be that it's not you're not fully breaking it down or feeling heavy after a meal or that kind of thing.

Melanie Avalon:
People don't know this often, but our gut bacteria can ferment protein if it reaches the large intestine. So if you're having gas and bloating from a primarily protein -rich meal, especially if there's not a lot of fiber or other substrates with it, then that means there probably is a significant amount of protein that's reaching your large intestine that wasn't completely absorbed because it's being fermented by gut bacteria.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, and I've had a couple of guests on the show to talk about that, and that's what I'm curious is, in that instance, is it just too much protein being consumed or is it a lack of enzymes? Probably requiring more enzymes. Your gut wouldn't ferment amino acids.

Melanie Avalon:
your intestinal cells are not going to ferment amino acids.

Vanessa Spina:
I've got bacteria.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it would be the gut bacteria and the colon. What's interesting about that point is that both camps will use that as arguments for both ways. I've heard low -carb people being like, you can actually ferment protein. But then I've also heard people deconstruct that and say, no, it's actually the byproducts of that have negative metabolic effects compared to the byproducts of fermenting fiber and carbs.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it's negative because your body would then be producing sulfide, like it would be producing sulfuric acid, which is, you know, ammonia is an issue, I think. It's probably a conversation we should have more, but like your body has to sequester the nitrogen that you break down when you break down protein in the liver, into urea, and then sort of package it up as urea and excrete it as urine, and it has to sequester that because it is toxic. So if you are having issues breaking down protein or you are eating a lot of protein and you're creating a lot of ammonia and sulfuric acid, it's probably not a good thing.

Melanie Avalon:
That's intuitively. I mean, because I remember when I first heard that and I was like, oh, yay, see, I can just eat the protein. But my gut instinct is leans more towards what you're saying, for sure. My no pun intended. Mom puns. Literal.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was just so fascinating to hear them talk about what they do exactly. And then last little bit, so when I had John on the show, I was like, so what did you think of Dave's diet? What do you say? It's kind of a little bit like gossipy comment. Like he said, oh, I think he's like getting ready to maybe market a product. But he said the reason he got so lean is because he was basically just eating amino acids, like essential amino acids. And that's it.

Melanie Avalon:
That would probably do it.

Vanessa Spina:
I'm like, so that's like the ultimate protein sparrow. No, and I like, and then I like, so are you going to try his high carb diet? And he was like, F no. It was kind of funny episode, actually.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I want to listen to that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, because when they were talking, it really, I really thought they were good friends. And then like when I asked them about it, but I think that's also maybe how men kind of are like with each other, like they'll make fun of each other. And it's not taken in a bad way. It's like a loving thing. Like my P always says when their friends make fun of each other, that's how they express affection. So, you know, whereas like women would never do that, never express affection by making fun of a friend, but men are wired a little bit differently when it comes to that. Anyway, yeah, it was interesting. Just all the talk about OMAD, that study and the enzymes. And then I really wanted to ask you about, you know, your routine. And I think it's probably just a conversation that should be had more because it's not being had very often. Like it was, it was almost shocking for me to hear Dave talking about that. And then talking about how he takes all these enzymes, you know, because you just don't, you just, that's just not really part of the conversation a lot. And it should be because we're talking so much about optimizing that protein intake, but optimizing it isn't just eating as much protein as you can, right? It's also making sure you're absorbing it and breaking it down, et cetera.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And what's funny is I'm just so, like I said, I'm so accustomed and used to taking massive amounts of enzymes. I forget that most people are not taking enzymes, definitely not in the amounts I'm taking them. Okay, but you're not eating like...

Vanessa Spina:
a bottle of meal.

Melanie Avalon:
in a bottle.

Vanessa Spina:
Like maybe a week.

Melanie Avalon:
Maybe. Okay. So let's see. So one of the 90 caps bottles. Yeah, probably a week, which would be like a dozen or so caps a meal, maybe a little bit more than that.

Vanessa Spina:
OK, that's not out of I mean, that's I could easily go from three to twelve. I was like having a hard time imagining swallowing a literal handful, like half a bottle or something at a meal. I was like, I can't do that.

Melanie Avalon:
It's just muscle memory for me now. Literally, I don't even think about it. All this fine, all this fine. It's probably more than 12 for me, but let's try 12 for you.

Vanessa Spina:
Let's try 12 and I'm going to report back if I notice any differences. But lately I feel like I've been adding in so many things, like I've been adding in spirulina and that's like another thing I have to make sure to do every day and then adding in collagen with my new collagen. I've been doing that. It's not something I was taking before. I'm adding in spirulina, collagen, chlorella before bed and there's like several other things I feel like I've been adding in lately. So HCL, just like so many things to swallow, you know, there's just like so many pills and things, but I think it's worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
I always dread when you're filling out, because I'm always, I was doing this last night, I'm always filling out these health intake forms because I'm trying products like left and right. And a lot of them are like blood work tests or the thing I was trying last night was this true diagnostic epigenetic age test and you always have to fill out this, you know, health intake form. I dread when I get to the supplement page where it's like, what supplements are you taking? I'm like, can I just not answer this? Because, and then especially with the ones where they want the details, like, you know, the amount and the frequency, I'm like, I can't, this is, I can't, this is too much. I can't, I can't fill all this out. I can't wait to send you my spirulina. It's almost done. Me too. It's almost done. I will say though, just comment quickly on the Dave thing. Since I recorded with him at his house in his kitchen, I can attest to the fact that his, his kitchen was, there were so many supplements. Just like everywhere. Just like on the counters everywhere. I was like, oh, okay, he definitely is taking these things.

Vanessa Spina:
I think Ray, do you follow Ray Kurzweil, Dr. Ray Kurzweil at all? Oh, it rings. Is he the rings a bell? He's the guy he came up with the singularity concept like when we will merge with

Melanie Avalon:
computer intelligence. Oh wait, I think I've listened to him. Has he been on Rogan? Oh yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
for sure. He's a fascinating individual, but I watched a documentary on him maybe like 15 years ago. He's the super positive guy. He's like super positive. So one of his best friends or close friends, I know who you're thinking of, the inventor of the XPRIZE. He is the super positive. Peter Diamandis.

Melanie Avalon:
I just remember when I listened to the interview with Ray that he was so like, some of the things he was saying sounded like pretty dark, but he was just kind of like really chipper about like everything.

Vanessa Spina:
And when you say super positive person, like Peter Diamandis comes to mind. Yeah, he does. He does come to mind. So positive about the future. And like, I just love that energy. Like I, I could be around it all day long. Anyways, they were in, they were both in that documentary together. Oh, cool. Wait, which, what was the documentary? I can't remember. I have to find it because it was 15 years ago. But all I remember is they were showing Ray and he was taking at least a hundred pills a day and he took them multiple times a day. And it was just like, I think the documentary was honoring him, but they were also kind of shadily, like just throwing in these shots of him constantly, like taking pills as a way to be like, okay, like he thinks he's going to live forever, but do you want to be taking this many pills a day? Like, is that a life that you want to be living forever? But I don't like taking supplements. I don't like taking a lot, but there really are, I think some that are super essential and then I kind of rotate them where I'm like, okay, these are my priority right now. I think what I love about spirulina though, just as a final comment on that is that it replaces my CoQ10 and fish oil. Like, even though I don't really take that, but I still feel good. It replaced it and it replaces it, a green supplement and also just a multivitamin. So for me, it's like, yeah, I have to take like 15 to 30 tablets of it, but it replaces so many things that I think it's worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I love the spirulina for that reason, that it's literally, it's crazy how much it's a nutrient powerhouse. It's just crazy. It's just like pure nutrients. Like you said, you don't need the multivitamin. I wouldn't, I mean, I understand that you feel comfortable doing it, just for listeners. I wouldn't advocate it to replace a fish oil pill because it's not, I mean, it's very low fat. So you're not really getting a lot of fat from it. So it's not like an omega, it's not a hardcore omega -3 source or anything, but it has, it does have those and it has specifically the, has that other special type of omega?

Vanessa Spina:
It has an omega -6 that basically the body treats as an omega -3.

Melanie Avalon:
The omega -3 that it does have, it has the EPA DHA forum, which is, you know, harkening to the types of omega -3s that you're getting from, you know, animal food, like fish specifically, which is great. And for listeners, so when this airs, that should already be out, which is very, very exciting. So you can get the spirulina at avlonx .us. Use the coupon code MelanieAvlon to get 10% off. And if you would like to get on my email list to get announcements about the newest supplements, because I am really excited, I am going to be creating a digestive supplement line in the future, get on my email list at avlonx .us slash email list. And you can actually also get text updates if you text avlonx to 877 -861 -8318. And when you do that, you will also get a 20% off coupon code that we text you. So that's pretty exciting. And for Vanessa, you also mentioned the collagen. How can people get your supplements?

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I'm super excited about the collagen. It is the first collagen I found that has clinical grade RCTs behind it. It's amazing for really pumping up the collagen in the skin and even improving the appearance of cellulite. So I'm actually taking it. And like I said, I hate taking supplements. But for anyone who's interested, we are going to do an exclusive launch discount and everything just like we did for tone protein. And you can sign up for it at toneprotein .com. And that's for tone collagen, which will be out very soon.

Melanie Avalon:
so, so exciting because then I'm just thinking, basically supplements I take, I take during the day like seropeptase. I don't take, I'm not like Ray or Dave with, you know, these millions and millions. Really during the day it's like seropeptase, berberine. Those are like my fasting ones that I really, really take. And then like with food, spirulina, but I think of that more as a food, honestly. Like I chew it, I eat like a food. I don't, do you chew it and eat it or do you swallow it, the spirulina?

Vanessa Spina:
I just swallow it. But Luca likes to chew it, which is really cute. It's his medicine, right? Yeah, the medicine every night is like I gotta have my medicine.

Melanie Avalon:
So cute, I love it. Ooh, I wonder what he'll think of. Will you let me know what he thinks of the mermaid on the bag?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh yeah, for sure.

Melanie Avalon:
I definitely will. He'll love that. I need Luca's thoughts on this bag.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but as a mom, it makes me feel so good because we really prioritize protein with him and nutrient -dense foods, but I don't really get in all the veggies, and it's hard to do that with kids, but he has two, I think, tablets of spirulina, sometimes a bit of chlorella, and I've heard it compared to one pound of vegetables and nutrients in it, and I believe that from how nutrient -dense it is. It makes me feel so good that he likes it, and it's a thing that we do together every night before bed or sometimes in the morning, and I'm definitely going to do that with Damien as well, so I mean, there's just so many reasons to love it.

Melanie Avalon:
It's, it's amazing. Oh, it also is a vegan source of B12, which is amazing. I mentioned this on a prior podcast, but similar to you, like, I remember when I first read the late like really looked at the label for the back of the bag about what was in it nutrient wise. And I was like, is this right? Like it doesn't like it literally didn't seem like it was possible to have that many nutrients like 600% of like certain, you know, RDAs and stuff. So yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing. That was super fun. When does your episode air with John?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it should be coming out in the next two to three weeks. So that's like sometime, probably when this episode is coming out and that's Dr. John Jaquish. Perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, he's definitely a character as both he and Dave have really intense personalities. So them together would be a conversation for sure.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it was definitely...

Melanie Avalon:
entertaining. All right. Shall we go into some fasting questions? I would love to. So I'm really excited about these questions. So I got this from my Facebook group and it's three questions slash comments. I'll read all of them and we can just address it together. So Stephanie wanted to know, she said, I've heard that fasting is not good as you get older, is that true? And then Susan commented, she said, my mother is 78. She's been fasting for five years. She says she feels healthier and better now than she ever did in her forties and fifties. And then Karen said, I'm 64. I've been fasting for about five years. I feel great. I do think longer fast on a consistent basis may not be too good. I think the same could be said for exercise, light cardio and some strength training is good, but going to hardcore can affect us negatively. Looking forward to hearing this episode for an expert's perspective. And then Lizzie, oh, there's actually more comments than three. Lizzie said, what are the health benefits for 70 plus year olds? Are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years?

Vanessa Spina:
I think it can be confusing when you hear lots of different sources saying different things. There's obviously a lot of research supporting the benefits of intermittent fasting and fasting as well, but I think it depends on what your goal is with it. Some people are doing it for autophagy. Some people are doing it for fat loss. Some people are doing it for longevity. It kind of depends what you're optimizing for because it may or may not be the best way to achieve that. But at the end of the day, I always go back to you have to see how you feel and assess it for yourself because there can be so many studies done on these things, but at the end of the day, do you like it? Do you enjoy it? Do you feel energized, happy, productive? Do you feel your best self when you're doing it? Or do you feel miserable watching the clock, white knuckling it? And I think if you're feeling great on it, then obviously it's working well for you. If your labs are looking good and improving, et cetera. But if you are literally white knuckling it through your fasting window, then that may be not only creating stress, but just you're not enjoying your day. So what's the point of doing it, right? So I really think it comes down to subjective experience. I do want to note though, as well, that one of the concerns for people who are over the age of 40 that I often bring up is Dr. Don Lehman, who is an amino acid scientist, protein expert. He always commented that he does not think fasting is very well indicated for people who are over 40 because it's harder to maintain muscle. It's something I actually asked Dr. John Jaquish about in our podcast funnily enough, because I wanted to know his opinion because he does so much fasting and he's so well versed in the science of muscle. And this guy has more muscles, like he's got muscles on his muscles. He's like...

Melanie Avalon:
You go to the dictionary like muscle and it's like see john jake wish.

Vanessa Spina:
Exactly. And he does a lot of fasting. So I asked him what he thought about it. And he believes that fasting, there are certain metabolites or molecules that are protective of muscle. We've seen that people talk about growth hormone, people talk about ketones having a muscle sparing effect. He monitors his muscle growth and retention with computers. I think his latest, he's constantly doing not only DEXA but all kinds of different analysis because he wants to grow muscle. And that's his brand. He's the guy who can build muscle. So he thinks that it's malarkey. Basically, he thinks that anyone who says that you're going to burn off all your muscle if you fast is wrong. So it's really interesting to hear people's different takes on it. But I did recently hear Dr. Don Lehman saying that when he refers to fasting, it's over 48 hours. So for people who are really concerned about losing muscle, as long as they keep it under 48 hours, then that shouldn't be too much of a concern. But I just wanted to bring up that aspect because I know that it's a reason that a lot of people who are over 40 do have concerns about the effects of fasting. But there's also a lot of opinionated people in this space who are either praising intermittent fasting or tearing it down constantly. And I know it can be confusing hearing people's different opinions on it. So I'd love to hear some of the research that you were looking at, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, first of all, I'm glad that's it's such a good testimonial. It's so true. Like looking at somebody like John Jake, which who has so much muscle and he, like you said, he clearly practices intermittent fasting, right? Daily, like he has one meal a day.

Vanessa Spina:
He has one meal a day, and then when he did the interview with Dave, he had just finished a three -day dry fast, and he does those pretty often. He was saying, wow, that's intense.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so yeah, that's a really good example. My thoughts were really similar to yours. So my initial thoughts before I like sat down did research was, I think in general intermittent fasting is wonderful for for people who are older, especially because we have often have more and more metabolic issues as we age, like our bodies, because when we're younger, you know, our bodies are more adept at kind of dealing with the often horrible onslaught that we throw at them with our diets and our environment and our lifestyle, like they deal like they're amazing they, but behind the scenes, things might be creeping up that will lead to problems in the future. So while we may not viscerally experience it, when we're younger, with creeping up blood sugar levels, you know, progressively rising insulin levels, you know, potentially negative effects with our lipid panels, down the road, when we get older, the body doesn't always put up with that forever. And these issues, unless we implement dietary lifestyle choices that change it tend to get worse with age rather than better. So something like fasting that can have profound effects on our metabolic health, I think can be incredible for older the older population. And then we just know about all these benefits, especially, I'll go into some of the studies that I found, but actually before that, the one thing I was thinking, though, and it's what you were just talking about as well, is that we do know that, you know, we need more and more protein as we get older, like that the requirement is raised, and preservation of muscle is so important for healthy aging, it's so strongly correlated to disease and mortality, as in, you know, low muscle mass being a problem. So the focus on protein, I think is so important. And so you definitely want to make sure with intermittent fasting, because you're eating in a smaller time window, that you're definitely getting enough protein in that window. And going back to what we were talking about earlier, this is perfect, that you can digest it. So making sure that when you're an older adult, that you're getting an ample protein and you know, doing digestive support so that you do with some like those amino acids, I think can be really important. So I did sit down and try to find some studies on this. And I found a really good review. So it was from 2021. It was called the effects of intermittent fasting regimens and middle age and older adults current state of evidence. They did make a note that they said basically they wanted and I'm, I'm talking in like more, you know, casual terminology, but they wanted to make it for like adults age 65 and older, I think, but that there's like less studies on the even like the older people get. So they looked at studies for people who are 50 and older, they looked through hundreds of studies, but the ones that met their criteria, they found four studies on quote, time restricted eating, which had windows from six to 12 hours. And then they found three studies on five to what was really interesting was that they said they also wanted to include studies on alternate day fasting, but none met their criteria. But I always considered five to alternate day fasting. Do you consider five to a form of alternate day fasting? Yes.

Vanessa Spina:
But in a sense, I'll always consider a day that you're eating food to be more of a low calorie diet.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, right. Because with 5 .2, on 5 .2 isn't an optional or to eat up to 500 calories on those days or...

Vanessa Spina:
I think most people eat 500 calories.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, five. So, okay. That's a good point. In any case, looking through these studies, here are some of the takeaways that they found. So they concluded that a growing body of evidence supports the promise of fasting regimens for middle -aged and older adults. They found that the time -restricted eating studies, so that was where people were doing eating windows, like six to 12 hours, they said they were particularly well -tolerated and that they produced modest weight loss when they were practiced on a daily basis. For 5 .2 specifically, they found that that form produced clinically meaningful weight loss. It had less consistent effects on metabolic parameters. That said that there were relatively few adverse events. The worst side effect they found in the older adults was a heightened risk of hypoglycemia, so more risk for low blood sugar episodes in patients with type 2 diabetes. So basically, in the older population where they have poor glycemic control already, the fasting, they did see some cases where they actually got low blood sugar issues. They did address that, and they said that maybe a way for people to basically work with that was to just take a slower approach to implementing intermittent fasting that maybe with the setup of the studies that people with type 2 diabetes, it was just kind of too much of a shock to the system, and that's why people were getting low blood sugar episodes. So they did posit that as a potential solution there. They said, oh yeah, here's where they said that they couldn't find any studies that tested the effects of alternate day fasting or alternate day modified fasting approaches in older adults. They did find, so benefits -wise, they did find, besides the weight loss, that there seemed to consistently be beneficial effects on blood pressure, which is super important because that's really heavily tied to cardiovascular health, and we know that cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of mortality. People think it's cancer, but it's actually cardiovascular disease. They did not find any serious side effects. The worst side effects they found were hypoglycemia episodes that I already mentioned, as well as some constipation. One of the things they talked about that I really appreciated and was something I was thinking about with this question was they talked about all the incredible benefits potentially of calorie restriction for health and longevity, but that there are concerns with that for older adults getting enough nutrients and protein and also preserving muscle. They were saying that intermittent fasting can basically probably create the benefits of calorie restriction without the negative effects of loss of lean muscle and loss of bone density and even potentially malnutrition. They were basically fans of calorie restriction for the older population. What they ended with, though, again, was just this importance of making sure, because of the potential for sarcopenia, that the older adults do get enough protein to support that. Then there were a few other good studies I found. I found a 2020 study called intermittent fasting enhanced the cognitive function in older adults with mild cognitive impairment by inducing biochemical and metabolic changes. That was a study that looked at 99 elderly subjects and they were either regularly practicing IF or they were irregularly practicing IF or they were not fasters. This is a cohort study. Basically, they're looking at what people are doing and seeing what's happening. They followed them for three years and they found that the group that was regularly practicing intermittent fasting, they had no cognitive impairment and disease compared to those who were irregularly practicing intermittent fasting or not practicing intermittent fasting. That's amazing. They said that what they saw in the group that was fasting in this older population that could be involved in the prevention of cognitive decline was they had higher levels of superoxide dismutase. They have lower body weight, lower insulin, lower fasting blood sugar, lower C -reactive protein, which is an inflammatory marker in the body, and less DNA damage. They postulated that other ways that IF may be really helping the metabolic pathways for cognitive function was from the use of ketone bodies, so being in the ketogenic state. Also, pyruvate metabolism and effects on the glycolysis and gluconeogenesis pathways. What was super cool was they also found that those who regularly practice IF, they had better cognitive scores and they had better cognitive function also at a 36 -month follow -up. That was cool. Then also, sort of similar, there was a 2024, so very recent, a systemic review. It was called effective time -restricted eating and intermittent fasting on cognitive function and mental health in older adults. It looked at eight studies and their conclusion was that time -restricted eating may have a positive impact on cognitive function and mental health in this older population. They did say that further research was needed though. Basically, the takeaway for me was that we see so many beneficial effects with intermittent fasting in the older population and I really think just as long as you're paying attention to that one concern of making sure you're getting adequate protein and then with things that it was finding with the hypoglycemia and such, making sure you're not going too extreme, finding the pattern that really works for you. If you're having trouble with blood sugar swinging issues, definitely try a continuous glucose monitor. We're major fans of those. It'll be a game changer because it'll give you a clear picture of your blood sugar levels 24 -7 so you can see how your fasting is affecting you, how your food is affecting you and you can adapt accordingly. We really love Nutrisense. You can go to Nutrisense .com slash ifpodcast and use the code ifpodcast. That will get you $50 off, so definitely check that out. For Lizzie's question about, are there many people you hear of that have been fasting for 20 or more years? I'm trying to think if I personally, personally know anybody who have been doing it for 20 or more years. The ironic thing is as a species, we just were doing this as our life for a long time. As far as many people, there's been millions of people who have done this for 20 or more years. I'm just trying to think if I actually know anybody personally. I've been doing it. Oh, that's crazy. I've been doing it since 20 ... I've been doing it since 20. 10? So I've been doing it 14 years. Oh, wow. That's weird. How about you, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's been around the same amount of time.

Melanie Avalon:
Do you know anybody like who's been practicing it for like over 20 years probably?

Vanessa Spina:
But I don't feel like it's something that I talk about with them, but I do know a lot of people who do OMAD Carnivore have been doing it for a long time. It's hard to know other than myself and you and probably like Cynthia and Jen. Because I just don't know that many people personally in my actual life who do intermittent fasting. I think a lot of my friends and family are starting to get interested in it now, which is interesting.

Melanie Avalon:
I feel like it started becoming really popular in the past five years or so, maybe. Once we fast forward another decade, I think there'll be a lot of people who've been doing it over 20 years who are talking about it. Because to your point, I think a lot of people do it, but in the past, it wasn't something that was something to talk about, it was just the way people ate. But now it's this whole thing that's in the news and the studies and we have a podcast about it that we've had for, you know, six years or so, seven years, I don't know, when did the show come out? A long time ago. So I think there are a lot of people and there's probably a lot more that aren't talking about it as well. So, okay. Any other thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think you covered it really well. Thank you for looking up all those studies.

Melanie Avalon:
Love getting these questions and then it's always just so fun to sit down and be like What's gonna come up like I'm always really curious like what's gonna come up when I sit down with Google Scholar and have a moment So for listeners if you would like to submit your own questions for the show You can directly email questions at I a podcast calm or you can go to I a podcast calm and you could submit questions There also definitely join me in my Facebook group, which is called if biohackers You can ask questions in that group as well I also post a lot in that group and ask for questions and for thoughts on things and we share it on this show So definitely check that out and the show notes will be at I have podcast comm slash episode 377 those show notes will have a full transcript and also links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out You can follow us on Instagram. We are I have podcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is ketogenic girl I think that's all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go

Vanessa Spina:
This episode was so much fun, like always, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too, thank you. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

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Jul 07

Episode 377: Anti-Aging Tips, Entering Perimenopause, Treating Menopausal Symptoms, HRT, CGMs, Hashimoto’s Disease, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Study: Enhanced muscle activity during interrupted sitting improves glycemic control in overweight and obese men

Welcome to Episode 377 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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SHOW NOTES

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Listener Q&A: Wendy - Does [IF] work? I tried it and never lost anything - may not work for everyone.

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 377 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 377 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everybody. How are you today, Vanessa? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm good. I was telling you before this, I'm really excited because literally, I just read it, another Fox article came out. She heavily featured me. I'm really honored. The article is called Three Women, Ages 41, 55, and 64, Share Their Secrets to Better Health and Longevity. And the subtitle is, For Women's Health Month, Three Mothers and Grandmothers Revealed How They're Defying Their Chronological Ages. And then it goes through the stories of the three women. So it goes through the stories of three different women, and it tells about the things that they're doing for healthy aging, which is, of course, right up my alley. But then, so that's like the whole first part of the article. And then the second part of the article, it says, A Biohackers Five Quick Tips for Healthy Aging. And then it says, Melanie Avalon, health influencer, entrepreneur, and host of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast, where we are right now. And the Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcasts agree that women can take proactive steps to slow their pace of aging. And then I go through five different ways that women can help optimize their aging and try to decide if we should play the guessing game here. What's kind of funny is, so the way this went down is yesterday, the Fox editor, Melissa, she reached out and said she was writing a story and would love some of my quotes. And so I wrote out all of my answers. And then after curiosity, I was like, I'm going to ask chat GPT what it thinks I would say. So I said, I was like, is Melanie Avalon, can you like answer this, you know, prompt? And it literally, it was so scary. It listed, I mean, it listed everything I said, almost in the exact same order. So the first thing I put in my answer was prioritized protein. And then chat GPT was like, prioritized protein. I was like, oh my gosh. And then I talked in my answer to her about leucine specifically prioritizing leucine. And then chat GPT included that as well. Literally everything I'd said, it gave a list and then some and that actually gave me further inspiration because it listed a few things. I was like, oh yeah, that's true. So I like added those in my own words. I didn't like just copy and paste. But yeah, so the the five ones that are in the article number one is optimize sleep. So I talk about how to, you know, create a sleep sanctuary to support restorative night tangent. By the way, when you were pregnant with your kids and everything, like how do you, well, a historically, are you a good sleeper? And then did that change with motherhood?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I sleep pretty well. Pregnancy, you start waking up a lot throughout the night. So I haven't had uninterrupted sleep for three years. I looked it up once and it's akin to night shift workers almost when you're up for periods of the night because then you're also waking up to breastfeed once the baby comes. But before the baby comes, most pregnant women have issues like heartburn and all kinds of stuff, being uncomfortable on their side. I luckily did not, but I did have to just wake up to pee a lot. And then I feel like that kind of starts preparing you for them when the baby comes because then you have to wake up a lot to nurse. So actually when we were at the hospital over Christmas, when Damien was in the NICU, it was the only time I had uninterrupted sleep because he was in the NICU all night. And I was sleeping at the hospital for about two weeks and I actually had uninterrupted sleep for like six hours each night. And I felt Pete and I would wake up and be like, Oh my God, I feel so good because the sleep was so amazing. But yeah, your sleep just isn't the same and it's a season of life where it's very different. But I feel like I'm lucky. I'm getting pretty decent sleep for what, for where we're at right now. And I know it's like a temporary thing, but yeah, why do you ask?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm just super curious whenever I think of like young mothers and things. It just seems like the sleep would be like madness. I just, I cannot. I cannot.

Vanessa Spina:
It's not that bad. I was really... We were both really scared of it. It was one of the reasons I think we held off on having kids for a while because we were scared of the sleep deprivation because of the way people talk about it. But it's weird how your brain adjusts. It really does because if you even get two hours of sleep early in the morning, your brain right away goes into the deepest state of sleep. So you can catch up. So you, instead of going into it more gradually, you adapt and then you actually feel pretty good. I feel great most days. I'm on very limited sleep. Your body adjusts and you adapt and then it's a temporary phase of life, but it's so worth it. Everything else makes it so worth it.

Melanie Avalon:
That's actually really interesting because I was listening to a, an interview with Matthew Walker, which I would love to try to get him on the show. I really, really need to, but he was talking about different studies where people are deprived of certain versions of sleep. And when they get so deprived like that, when they actually do fall asleep, they immediately jump into that stage that they needed. So I think it was mostly like with people who are deprived of REM sleep, for example, like severely deprived of it. And then when they actually did get a chance to sleep, it was like, not the same thing as what you were saying, where you jumped right in, but, but sort of, we said it happens actually with people who, I don't have it, I don't want to misquote this, I think he was saying how like C or like marijuana can affect, can make you get less REM sleep. And then when people come off it, they're probably like preferentially prefer REM sleep, so they'll have like crazy dreams because they're like restocking up on the REM stages. It's pretty interesting. The tips I gave in this were to implement a sleep sanctuary to best support a restorative night, including sticking to a consistent wind down routine and sleep schedule in a cool, dark environment, using a cooling mattress, avoiding late night, blue light exposure, and finding the optimal sleep position are some ways women can achieve better sleep quality. I got inspired by the sleep position because I just did a whole interview on that last week. That was number one. Number two, I said to seek hormonal support as needed. And I talked about the importance of micronutrient rich whole foods in your menopausal years, and at the same time also getting sleep and addressing your stress and reducing your toxic exposure. And then I did say, have you and I talked about our thoughts on hormone replacement therapy? So I did say, my answer I gave her was longer than this. What she kept from it was for some women, hormone replacement therapy may be an option, and then the quote is many women may find that the benefits outweigh their risks. Do you have thoughts on the women's health initiative and hormone replacement therapy? I feel like it comes up a lot in podcasts and interviews I have, like the drama surrounding it, basically.

Vanessa Spina:
I've done maybe five or six episodes in the last year just on HRT because it's so fascinating to me. And also because the data in the Women's Health Initiative has recently been reassessed and they found that actually it was bioidentical hormones were actually protective against breast cancer in women. And it's really important to have the progesterone balancing out the estrogen. But I've had some amazing guests, Dr. Sarah Gottfried. I've had several hormone specialists on the podcast because I wanted to learn about it for understanding perimenopause because it can start as early as a decade before menopause. And the average age for menopause is 50. But for women who have it younger, like 45, that means like 35, you could start having symptoms of perimenopause. And women seem to be having it more and more now, perimenopause. So I wanted to really educate myself on it and I feel like I've learned so much just from – actually, it was just in the last two months most of those episodes came out. So that's kind of been a big topic and I feel very empowered by the information that I've been learning and very – yeah, I would say empowered and excited to have this understanding for that when that time comes for me when I'm not cycling anymore. What about you?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, really really similar. It's really interesting because I mentioned it before but and you mentioned it what you were talking about But basically the the women's health initiative was this massive study That it was actually stopped Early the takeaway they were giving was that hormone replacement therapy was causing cancer in women and I know like Peter T. I feels very strongly about it. He actually has a really good interview With the main woman who did the study and I mean he completely deconstructs it me more deconstructs it I mean he deconstructs it when he taught when he's talking to her But he deconstructs it more when he's not talking to her It's quite possible that the way it was presented about the the risks of the cancer rates They're like tiny but they were like presented differently like relative versus absolute risk I don't think they even I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they didn't even really correlate to Mortality like it was just a couple more a handful more cases of cancer But not even mortality related to that and compared to like the benefits of women feeling like their lives are being changed With menopausal symptoms or preparing menopausal symptoms being on hormone replacement therapy I find it really interesting too because like you said a lot of the people that we interview do have this opinion But people they take the other of you which is what the women health initiative put out there actually the book I'm reading right now the Michael Greger book. He just had a whole long section on it about The way it was presented as a major negative. So I just think there's a lot of nuance there. I find it really interesting

Vanessa Spina:
Why am I not surprised? My goodness, and he's a man. Sorry, but.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, you know, it's funny. So I was thinking about that, you know, it's so funny because the way he presents it is like he presents it like, you know, that like the system is making these hormones that are like patronizing women, like taking control of women. So he comes off as like, it's like he's freeing women by saying they don't have to take on the risks of hormone replacement therapy. But I just want to be like,

Vanessa Spina:
Literally, the sound of his book hitting the bottom of my garbage can, if I would read that part. I mean, I can't even begin to... What I've been learning specifically from these experts, which a lot of it is new to me, is how bad that viewpoint is for women and how damaging it's been for women. Because women have been afraid of HRT. They're not taking it. They're dealing with all the symptoms when they don't need to be. One of the biggest symptoms is having poor body composition changes, so losing their bone mass and muscle mass. The doctors who are not really very well trained on these aspects of HRT and how it's changed and these different approaches are just giving women the same options. I think ablation is one of the options and going on birth control. Even though birth control has synthetic progesterone, which is the problematic one, they're telling women to go on birth control when they're in perimenopause to deal with the symptoms instead of just offering them bioidentical HRT, which can help most of those symptoms go away. That kind of rhetoric, to me, is really not of service to women, and the fact that it's from a man's perspective, all the podcasts lately, I feel like I'm raging against some just being honest with my thoughts.

Melanie Avalon:
I will say, you know, what's really interesting about it is, well, first of all, stepping back. So I have read other books from other guests, not Michael Greger, who have said similar things and some of them are women. So I don't think it's always necessarily just like the male, you know, view of that. And again, Peter is a male and he's saying the opposite. All of that said, I find it really interesting that, well, especially with Michael Greger, because he's all about like the science and the data. I don't know why he didn't go in and actually analyze the data the way Peter does, if what he does is really analyze data. Oh my goodness, wait, just really quick tangent. I'm so excited when I interviewed him. I'm trying to decide if I should bring this up. I was waiting for, I was like waiting the whole book with bated breath and it's a long book. I'm like halfway through. But I remember, do you remember when I interviewed, I think I told you about it, like Dr. Neil Bernard about his soy study, his soy vegan menopause study.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't remember exactly what it was.

Melanie Avalon:
about. So basically I had him on my show because he actually pitched to come on the show because he did a study on, speaking of menopause, looking at menopausal symptoms in women on a standard diet or a vegan diet with added soy. And they found that the vegan diet with added soy massively affected, beneficially, the women's hormonal symptoms during menopause. So the conclusion was that the soy, that adding soy to your diet, did this. But the setup of the study only compared a vegan diet with soy to a normal diet. There was no vegan diet without soy. So how did you know it was the soy? Like literally the soy could have been making it worse and they could have done better on just a straight up vegan diet, you know? Like you literally cannot make that conclusion.

Vanessa Spina:
at all. Yeah, that's bizarre.

Melanie Avalon:
seems really bizarre. So I was like waiting with beta breath during Michael's book because I was like, I was like, I'm going to be ready for it. I know he's going to bring up this study and I'm going to be ready for it. And then he did bring it up. He was like, in the soy chapter, he was like, this one study found that adding soy, he didn't mention the study, but he's like, this one study found that adding soy to your diet, you know, did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this is the Bernard study. I know it. And I went and looked at the references and it was, I was so excited. So I'm like, but it's things like that where because he has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of references. Actually, I just knew to wait, look for that because I had so extensively read an interview about that study. So I'm just like, I don't have time though to go check every single reference that he references to make sure it's not that situation with anybody really. It's just hard. There's just like so much information out there and opinions. And it's really hard to get to the truth of the matter, you know?

Vanessa Spina:
know, at the end of the day, you have to, I think, you know, do your own due diligence, draw your own conclusions, you know, I mean, everyone has different interpretations of the data. Sometimes I like to look at the person who's giving me the information and ask myself also, you know, is this someone that I want to emulate? Or like, is there does this person seem like they are healthy? Does this person seem like they have a young biological age or, you know, whatever it is, like, we all have our different criteria. But yeah, it is, it is hard sometimes when people give such opposing opinions on things, I totally get it. And I feel like a lot of listeners could relate to that as well. It's part of why I went back to school because I was like, I just can't, I don't know who to trust, I have to go back and educate myself more so that I can draw my own conclusions and understand how to read studies and do all this because it was so frustrating dealing with all the opposing opinions. It's so true.

Melanie Avalon:
And, and I thought not to go on an AI tangent, but I, I honestly thought when I started using chat GPT that it was going to make this better because I thought it was going to, um, like, just objectively look at studies and things. I think out of all the things I use it for, the worst thing to use it for is finding studies. Every single time I have asked it for studies, it makes up studies or quote studies, but it's not, it's not in there. I don't think it's set up to like go through the journals correctly on the internet because, and then I was listening to an interview about this and they were saying how like some lawyers were using it for a court case and it literally just like made up studies that did not exist, which is really scary.

Vanessa Spina:
Modely concerning. I know.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, just a little bit. I had to do a math problem the other day and it gave me the answer. I was trying to calculate what I had paid somebody over a certain amount of months taking into account like certain days. So I was like, I paid this person this amount for five months and this amount of days starting on, you know, like all these parameters. I was like, how much did I pay her? And it was like, you paid her and gave me a number. And I was like, great. Can you give me the breakdown of how you came up with that? And I was like, sure. And then I gave a breakdown and it equaled a different number. And I was like, so wait, so what's the answer? And I was like, you just gave me two different numbers. It was like, oh, you're right. Let's do this again to make sure we get it right. I was like, okay, this is like not, this is very concerning.

Vanessa Spina:
How can you make so many mistakes? That's wild. I mean, from all of it, I've barely used it at all. And every time you talk about it, it makes me want to use it less, so.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, to answer your question about how it makes so many mistakes, I think there's two main reasons it does. One is what I mentioned before is that it hallucinates. So if it doesn't know the answer, it can't not know the answer. So it just makes up an answer. That is a problem. Number two, it uses predictive, like I was just listening to a podcast about this, like predictive analysis to come up with things. So it's always, it's not necessarily hardcore. I mean, it is looking at the current data, but it's also predicting. And so to come up with its information. And so when it goes on these trades where it's predicting, then it's just predicting the wrong things. But it thinks it's, it thinks it's coming up with the right thing based on what it just did. If that makes sense. Yes, it's very concerning. So back to the study. Number three, this is the one that I gave her as number one. And this is something I know that you feel very passionate about. Let me know if you agree with everything I said, Vanessa, I was actually thinking about you when I was writing this because I was like, wait, am I like, am I recommending the right thing? I was like, I need Vanessa, like in my head right now to answer this question. Okay. Number three, optimize muscle mass. Okay. Please fact check me. Okay. So I said, maintaining muscle mass is crucial for healthy aging, according to Avalon declines in muscle mass and strength are intrinsically tied to mortality, playing a causative role in falls and metabolic issues. She said, I don't think I said causative role in metabolic issues, but oh well. Okay. Here's where I had a question. I said aging typically leads to reduce muscle protein synthesis. Women should pay careful attention to getting ample protein as they age with a particular focus on the amino acid leucine, which stimulates muscle protein synthesis. That's all good, right?

Vanessa Spina:
I think so, yeah, I think I usually say that muscle protein breakdown rates are higher, but I guess you could say it as muscle proteins of this goes down, but I guess it's like six of one, half dozen, the other, whatever hour that's...

Melanie Avalon:
That's so true. That's such a good perspective. Yeah, I gave her more information, but it didn't make it into here. But I was talking about the, like the leucine threshold. And I said, I recommended, I was googling and like in clinical journals, I found three grams for the leucine protein threshold. But then my interview with Dr. Gabrielle Lye, she said 2 .5 grams. So I said 2 .5 to three grams. What do you think is the threshold?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So Don usually heard Dr. Gabrielle Alliance mentor and they worked on a lot of this research together. He says two and a half to three grams, but he says three grams maxes it out. But I really want to talk to Don again, because now that this new study came out with no upper limit on muscle protein synthesis, I don't think he'll revise any of his statements or opinions, but I'm just so curious what he thinks about it. I should text Gabrielle and ask her because I know she talks to him like every day. But yeah, I think the leucine threshold would still be the same, even if there's no upper limit. But I'm not sure if the concept of maxing it out.

Melanie Avalon:
changes is different based on that information. Yeah. You have to let me know if she, what she says. Definitely. I said aging women should aim for a gram of protein per pound of body weight. So do we feel good about that recommendation?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think that's, that's a good number for like the mass population. Cause it's, it's usually, I usually say 1 .6 to 2 .2 grams per kg, which is like 0 .8. If you're more sedentary, but if you're a woman who's, you know, doing any kind of resistance training or activity, then that works out to like one gram per pound. But it's like, I think one gram per pound is a good target because a lot of people don't get there anyway, so it's better to overshoot.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Awesome. Yeah. Cause I was, I was torn answering it because I know what the official, you know, dietary recommendations are, which are in my opinion, tragically low. I was like, do I need to like go and explain this? And I was like, I'll just throw it in there and hopefully she'll just put it in. And then I said, women can also engage in strength training to further support muscle growth and maintenance. So that was my, my protein one. I'm really happy though, that she included the, uh, the leucine. I thought she, she might cut that out cause I thought she might think that it was too nuanced for the, uh, general population of Fox news. But, um, and then number four, there's only five, so we're almost on number four was monitor essential markers. So I said, what aging women should embrace the agency to take their health into their own hands. And I recommended working with conventional doctors to regularly check key health metrics, such as blood pressure, blood sugar levels, cholesterol, and bone density, along with other markers of disease. What she did not include is my second paragraph also talked about DIY, blood work and genetic testing through online platforms that did not make it into the cut. So now it sounds like I'm saying just talk with conventional doctors. It's so interesting to see how the, uh, you know, how the editing process can like change kind of what you're saying. I mean, I do recommend that, but I didn't just recommend working with conventional doctors. And then number five is something we talk about on this show all the time. It's not intermittent fasting, which actually was one of my points. And she did not include that, but I said, number five, achieve proper glycemic control. So I said that poor glycemic control is linked to a myriad of degenerative diseases from prediabetes and diabetes to cardiovascular disease and cognitive decline. I said that aging women can implement an unprocessed whole foods based diet, low to moderate and carbs, depending on their tolerance. And then the last quote of the article is women can also opt to wear a continuous glucose monitor CGM to monitor their blood sugar levels. So get in the word of CGM out there. That was a lot. It was a nice little, it was a nice surprise because whenever she asks for quotes, I, I never know if it's going to be just like a quote or like what it's going to be. And so to have it be kind of, I mean, this was amazing for it to be like an entire, I mean, it's basically just what I said in a list. So, so yes. Oh my gosh, it's been half an hour. How did I do that? Okay. What's new in your world?

Vanessa Spina:
I tried to make the sugar -free marshmallows. Oh, you did?

Melanie Avalon:
How did it go? Wait, you said you tried to. You tried to.

Vanessa Spina:
Try this afternoon and they make recipes I followed made it seem super easy I always thought that marshmallows are made of egg whites They're not It's mostly water. Okay. What do you think it is? What do you think they're made out of?

Melanie Avalon:
Gelatin and water and like vanilla and shh

Vanessa Spina:
sugar. Okay, you knew. I didn't know. I had no idea. I thought it was like egg whites or something. I had no idea. So that's exactly what it is. So if you make sugar free ones, you basically just do it instead with a sugar free, you know, alternative. So I used a wreath you taught, which is swerve, like basically the confectioners version of it, which I made in my blender and I got it started. And then we really had to go put the babies down for a nap. So you have to froth like whip it up in the mixer. So I had it in the stand mixer and I was like, well, it says it needs to mix for like five to 10 minutes. So I'll just get them to bed and then I'll come back and, you know, put it in. So it was taking a long time to get them to sleep. So my husband, Pete, I was like, can you just go check on it? And then I sent him like the recipe, I sent him some screenshots. I'm like, if it looks like this, then just like take it out, pour it in the pan. Cause I already had the pan set up. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
important question, where are Pete's skills on the cooking?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh boy. Like, non -existent. Oh. Not existent. Like, he just doesn't cook at all. I mean, he can, because we always tease him. We were dating. He made me like ex -Benedict, and he made all these things, but then, like, he's never entered the kitchen again, so. But he grills. He grills, right? He grills. So right now, I have, I have him, you know, doing all the dinners, which is awesome. Wait.

Melanie Avalon:
Can we do a shout out? Yes. If he was in the US, what grill would he be grilling on?

Vanessa Spina:
probably a schwank grill because that one everyone is talking about it right now and you basically can grill your meat and everything your steaks burgers shrimp everything like restaurant quality so I would love to get one of those when we're back in the US

Melanie Avalon:
He uses infrared heat to get the the perfect crisp char. I'm actually going to um, I'm trying to you said you did in a re -doctor. What's his name? Chafney?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I'm interviewing him on Thursday.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, you are? Oh, you're interviewing him. Oh, it's upcoming. That was just a coincidence. I haven't actually like dived into his work. All I know is he's a carnivore doctor. Yeah. Isn't his podcast, is it the plant free? Maybe he was on that podcast. What is his podcast? He has a podcast, right?

Vanessa Spina:
All I know is he is a carnivore doctor, and I'm pretty sure he was raised that way without really eating plant food. So that's what I'm really curious about. But my team booked the episode, so I have to do some prep on it, and I haven't done it yet because I have someone else that I'm interviewing tomorrow, one of my favorite protein scientists, Dr. Jose Antonio. So I'm really excited. He just published a new paper on protein, so I've been preparing for that. And then once that is done, I will switch over to Dr. Chaffee, but I know he loves that grill also. And being a carnivore, when you're a carnivore, you really become all about the cooking methods and the different ways to make your steak taste amazing because it's the main thing that you eat. So I think carnivores could do really well investing in some kind of grill like that because then you could basically have restaurant quality steak at home every day.

Melanie Avalon:
His podcast is the plant free MD podcast. Yes. So if listeners are interested, they can go to schwinkgrills.com and use the promo code I have podcast to get $150 off. So that's S C H W A N K grills.com with the code I have podcasts for $150 off. And I think I've asked like an influencer person, right? No, that was pre

Vanessa Spina:
I think I remember posting our engagement on my Instagram as an influencer. I shared like when Pete proposed and pictures of it and stuff. So it was around, it was sort of like maybe a year, but I had already been with Pete for a long time. So yeah, I was not single or anything.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, although actually it doesn't have to be dating, but I always just think it's funny because like dating or just meeting people, I'm always talking about all these things. And then I always feel like at the end, I'll want to give them the codes because I have codes for all the things I talk about and I want to give them a discount. But then I feel like, especially when it's like a new person you just met and you're like going on about like the continuous glucose monitors and all the things. And then at the end, you want to be like, oh, and you can go to neutrascents .io and use the coupon code.

Vanessa Spina:
You just want to share the wealth, yeah.

Melanie Avalon:
I do. So what I do now, I don't do this with strangers really, but if I were to go on a date or something, I usually tell the person at the beginning, I'm like, listen, anything I talk about, I probably have codes for. So just prepare yourself for that.

Vanessa Spina:
Get ready to enjoy the world. Yeah, I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
oh my gosh okay wait i completely interrupted what were we talking oh yeah pete not the best in the kitchen would love the showing grill if he was in the us what happened with the marshmallows

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, so I'm texting him pictures. I'm like, okay, it should look like this picture, step four, which is basically the stand mixer just filled with like a frothy white, you know, as if you were making meringue or something like just filled with like white frothy marshmallow. And then once it gets to that stage, which I assumed it was by that point, because I'd been in the room with them for like 20 minutes trying to get both of them down. And he's like, sends me this picture and it looks like it's kind of what it should be. And then he sends me another picture and it just looks like this, like a bunch of gravel like spread out parchment. So I came out and I'm like, what is this? Like, I guess it just ran for too long. And even if it got to the right point, you're supposed to move pretty fast from getting it out of the bowl and spreading it out. It says that in most of the recipes, but I think it was mixing for too long because it basically just, I tasted it and it just tasted like, uh, like the taste, especially the aftertaste was marshmallow, but the texture and everything was like all wrong. So I have to try again tomorrow and we'll see. But in the meantime, I reordered the truck zero ones because they're so good. They are exactly like actual marshmallows. And until I get my marshmallow skills, marshmallow making skills up to par, I don't know, it's going to take a little while. And they tasted very strongly of a wreath through tall. So which has a very strong minty aftertaste that I don't love, I'm not a bigger wreath through tall person, but that's the one like powdered sweetener thing that I have access to here. So I might try it with xylitol. I might have to play around with like a combination of stevia and something, you know, unless I can find something else, but the person who wrote the blog on it, I think I got it from food dreamer. She has a blog all day. I dream about food and she has a lot of cookbooks out and stuff. I love her blog. Yeah. She's got wonderful recipes and she said, don't try it with other lows. She said, try it with the best she found was Swerve and this other sweetener I had never heard of before. Oh, really? What was it? Do you remember? It was something with a B. I had just never heard of it. So I'm not sure what it is made of exactly, but the Chalk Zero ones are made of resistant dextrin. So I don't think that that's something that I could find. I think it's more of a manufacturer, like confectioners product. But anyway, I'm trying. I will report back and if I do it successfully, I will definitely share the recipe, whatever one that I end up using or playing with, or if I make my own version, if anyone else wants to try them. The other thing is I was like, maybe cause I like putting them in my element of hot chocolate. That's what I have after dinner. It's like a kind of nice like dessert treat. And so I was like, maybe if I just put them in my hot chocolate, I'll just get the taste of it. And then I put them in my, my element caramel chocolate, which I whip makeup with unsweetened almond milk. And I made it for the start of our podcast. And like, I looked down two seconds later and they were gone. Like they just dissolved into nothing. So I just have a very, very sweet chocolate caramel drink, which is fine. But yeah, no floating, no like slow melting marshmallows in my coffee. But it's funny because I don't really, I haven't had sweets or things like that, even like dark chocolate or anything in so long. And I was really surprised as I was testing with my CGM that they do not bump up my blood glucose at all. The Chalk Zero ones, I think partly because I'm quite active during the day, but they don't bump it up barely at all. And then last night I was like, maybe I should test this dark chocolate. I have, I have some dark chocolate, like smarties kind of things in dark chocolate bars that I have for Luca, because if we go to birthday parties or things like that, where the other kids are having treats, like I'll usually bring something for him. So I decided to try two pieces of the dark chocolate. And it was very good. Surprisingly, I was not tempted to have more, which is weird for me because I've always been more of an abstainer versus moderator, but I was fine. I think it's because I was after dinner, I had like, you know, enough protein. I was fully satisfied, but it did make my blood sugar go up. And then when I was reading, I mean, it was fine. It was like a normal reaction, but the truck zero ones didn't. So I was reading on Carolyn's blog about the marshmallows, her recipe. She said, don't use maltitol in the marshmallows because it makes your blood sugar go up. So I didn't know that about maltitol. And that's what I discovered myself yesterday when I tried it. So I'm still having so much fun with the CGM and testing things. I just tried a new sensor. I put one on on Sunday and I'm just going to keep rolling with it. Cause it's been so much fun. I'm learning so much about how my body works. And I'm just been so surprised at the things that I thought I just assumed. I'm like, this is probably spiking my blood sugar. And they weren't at all. And you know, it's, it's really cool to see when you have built up that insulin sensitivity and you are an active person. And, you know, I think I've got a lot of people now doing this, you know, 10 squats every hour since I, I posted about that study. And then I did a podcast episode about it last week. And I've had so many people commenting and damning me that they're doing squats all day long, every hour. So every time I do them, I think of everyone else who's also doing 10 squats and for listeners, this, we talked about it, I think last episode, but this study came out showing that doing 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes in this new study was better for blood sugar control than a half hour walk. And it turns out because you're activating the glute muscles and the quadriceps and producing lactate and the lactic acid is making the glucose transporters of glute glut four glucose transporters go to the surface of cells. So they can take up glucose. So that's what lowers the blood sugar, but by activating the glutes and quadricep muscles, you get this great blood sugar control. So it's, it's way better than doing a 30 minute walk. Because that takes time. Whereas just like dropping down and doing 10 squats. I've been doing it on the hour, just for fun also to test and I'm getting lower average blood sugar scores too. So having so much fun with the, this new Nutrisense CGM. If

Melanie Avalon:
If listeners would like their own Nutrisense CGM, they can go to Nutrisense.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code ifpodcast and that will get them $50 off a continuous glucose monitor. And if they'd like to try element for free, they can go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast and try it for free. See all the codes, all the abundance. Have you tried the new sparkling element? No, I don't think they

Vanessa Spina:
can ship to Europe yet. I don't think that actually will happen anytime soon. So next time I'm in the US, I'm definitely going to make a beeline to either get some or have some shipped to our place because I can't wait to try it. Have you tried them?

Melanie Avalon:
I haven't tried it, they sent it, so they sent the original box and then they just sent a whole new shipment and it's massive. It's crazy how heavy that stuff is.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, you have to let us know when you try it.

Melanie Avalon:
I will. And speaking of going back to the glutes thing, a big change I personally implemented, I don't know when I started doing this, but I feel like it really makes a difference. And it's something you actually mentioned when you first talked about the glute study, you talked about the importance of like being consciously involved in it. I started a habit where because I used to like when I would pick up something I would bend over at the waist, you know, and like, I would just like lean down and pick up things. Now I typically always like squat to get down. So then you just are like throwing in squats without even thinking about it.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, yes, I do the same thing like when I'm picking up Lucas toys.

Melanie Avalon:
like squat to get down and then you can like really like consciously squat up like you know like consciously like push yourself back up again from your legs without using your arms basically

Vanessa Spina:
Yes. And I think that's something I also learned a little bit in yoga is just being able to stand up from a sitting position without using my arms. And I think that that's a really good, I think that it's also a longevity test or something is like, if you are sitting, I think Dr. Peter talks about if you're sitting on the ground, how quickly can you get up? And like, how easily can you get up from, from being on the floor? Yeah, he does talk about that. I think it is a name, but I can't think of it right now.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So little hacks for listeners for their blood sugar and their health and their longevity and all the things. Just quick comment on the marshmallows. I'm really fascinated by – my one and only time I think I attempted making marshmallows was also a fail. I just remember they didn't – like you said, they didn't feel like marshmallows. Like they kind of turned into just – I don't remember, but it was like sludge or something. But I'm always really fascinated by food things that require both – where there's a big emphasis on time and – or like it'll often be like time and temperature. Like you have to move it from here to here at this time, at this temperature. Like it's basically like marshmallows, cheese, candy. It's like a science. I went down the rabbit hole of the cheese making world. It's crazy. Have you looked at cheese making recipes? Like how to make cheddar?

Vanessa Spina:
I have never attempted it. I have done candy though. I had a candy thermometer. We have one in Denver, and I made peanut brittle, but I made a keto version of it, and it's like macadamia nut brittle. It's one of my favorite holiday recipes, but I had to do that with the marshmallows. You have to get the syrup to a certain temperature, and yeah, it's involved. But it's simple. It's one of those recipes that's so simple. It's like four ingredients, but there's something about it that the recipe, when you read the blog, you're like, this looks so easy. It's not.

Melanie Avalon:
It's kind of like, I feel like I was ahead of the time with my cottage cheese obsession. Like I went through a cottage cheese making obsession and then literally like the next year, do you remember like there was that time period where everybody was making cottage cheese? Mm -mm. Okay, maybe not. And maybe I missed that one. Well, it happened and I was there before it happened. I'm thinking I should repurpose my cottage cheese making video now. It would probably do better.

Vanessa Spina:
I think a lot of people in Europe make more stuff like that at home, I've noticed. But in the US, you're probably the only one who doesn't, unless you have a homestead. Maybe... Wait, you make out of shoes? No, but I see it like people in Italy are just making their mozzarella and they're doing all this kind of stuff at home. But maybe in the US, it's more like homesteaders who are doing stuff like that.

Melanie Avalon:
and tick -tockers when it becomes a trend.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but like most people probably don't have time because it's like you could just buy it at the store very easily, I guess.

Melanie Avalon:
I made my cottage cheese because I wanted to make fat -free cottage cheese without additives. And it actually worked. All the recipes were saying, don't use fat -free milk, it's not going to work. I was like, I think it's going to work. It worked enough for me. It probably, I mean, it wasn't like restaurant quality, nobody would have, or even grocery store quality, but it worked for me. Point being though, I did that and it was like magical. I was like, wow. You literally watch it transform in front of your eyes and cottage cheese is mind -blowing. And then I was like, I want to make other cheeses. And that's when I went down the rabbit hole of looking at the recipes and I was like, oh, we're not going to do this. Like the mozzarella recipe, it's like, you know, when it's exactly this temperature, then keep it for this minutes and then stir it and then like let it sit and then think about it and then watch it and then this temperature and then that temperature and then move it. And then like, I cannot, it's like potions glass. It's like Harry Potter. So I don't know how they figured that stuff out originally. Okay. Tangents. So shall we end the show with a question? Yes, let's do it. Okay. I'll read this. So we have a question from Wendy. This was on Facebook and it was to a prompt where I asked people, did they have questions about intermittent fasting? She said, does it work? I tried it and never lost anything. Maybe it doesn't work for everybody. And then somebody asked her and they said, what did you try? And she said, quote, everything. Karen commented on that and said, I've only done totally clean fasting. I am post menopause, but stuck with it. I read Jen Stevens book and listened to her podcast, interviewing people fasting while I was getting started. I just stuck with it, hoping it was cleaning up my insights before I would see benefits on the outside. I truly believe it did. My benefits over three to five years have been better digestion, weight loss, not huge amounts, but decent eyesight has improved. Yay. Skin cleared and just feel better overall. I started 16 eight, then moved to 18 six some days and I'm back to 16 eight. Keep at it. So I noticed like a very, well, first of all, love the feedback, Karen. I'm so excited for you and all the things that you've experienced for Wendy's question. So this is more just like a general question. I guess there's a few questions here. One is like, because she said it maybe it doesn't work for everybody. Vanessa, do you think there are some people that fasting just doesn't work for? And also, you know, what about people who feel like they're just trying everything? Like how can they find what does work for them?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, I just did an episode that came out yesterday on my podcast, which is May 20th and it was with a hormone doctor, Dr. Amy, and it's specifically about that. Like basically when people have tried everything that it could actually be a hormone issue, which is what she found herself. She was a physique competitor and she was about to step on stage for one of her competitions and she gained 25 pounds and she was doing prep. So she was basically doing cardio twice a day and eating like steamed fish and broccoli, and she was, she gained 25 pounds and she went to see seven doctors and every single one of them told her that she was fine and she should eat less and move more. And then she finally saw a functional doctor who tested her and found that she had Hashimoto's. She had basically thyroid disease and she then changed her whole career path and became a functional medicine practitioner herself so that she could help women who have this issue. So sometimes it's, it's not, you know, like if you're, I think if you're trying everything and nothing is working, that may be the time when you would want to go see someone, get labs done, see someone who's perhaps a functional practitioner who can look at hormones and give you a lot of undivided time. She said her, the doctor that eventually became her mentor spent 90 minutes with her going over everything, you know, and trying to, and he was able to figure out what was going on with her. And, you know, you don't know if it could be an underlying physiological thing. If you have really tried every diet, every approach, and you're not getting results, there could be something going on hormoneally that you don't know about that, you know, you maybe just need some support with, right? So I think that's, could be a situation where you want to get some testing done potentially, you know, if you're feeling frustrated and that nothing is working with intermittent fasting. I do think that my opinion on it in general is that it is a stressor to fast during the day and for some people, it makes them feel great because it has a hormetic effect. So that little bit of stress produces like great energy, focus, you know, all the things that people talk about when they love intermittent fasting. But for other people who already have sort of their cup full of stress, that extra stress could be too much and not the right thing. So I do think there are situations when, you know, it's not the right fit for that person, or maybe that person is more sensitive to stressors either at that time or just in general overall. What do you think?

Melanie Avalon:
That was an incredible answer. Perfect timing with your interview about that. I historically felt like my body always really reacted a certain way once I really found the intermittent fasting pattern that worked for me. And then there was a time and point where I was on a certain medication and it literally, like I didn't change anything and the effects from it were so apparent and obvious. Like I feel like it really made me realize, oh, like certain medications, which would create a certain hormonal state presumably can really be a, you know, they can have a major effect where you can feel like you're doing everything and it's not working. And that was a medication, again, not, not hormones per se, but I think it's probably the hormonal effects of the medications. I love that you went there with the, you know, there could be something going on that you just are up against hormonal in your body that is not going to be fixed overnight with what it seems like you're actually doing. As far as I would want to know more from Wendy about what she actually is trying. I would especially like to know, I don't know if Wendy is this type of person, but I do think there, I think some people, especially the people who say like, I've tried everything. I have one friend who's like, really acts like this, where they don't give any one thing enough time before moving on to the next thing, or they don't commit to it enough. I think some people always just, they try something for a little bit doesn't work. So they try something else. It doesn't work. They try something else. It doesn't work without ever a sort of isolating a certain variable that they're testing and or be, like I said, not giving something enough time. So make sure you're giving whatever you're trying enough time. And I also will look at ephemeral fasting in particular does not working for you and you are, you know, giving it time and you are trying things that you think would work. There is a lot of magic in looking at the food choices as well. I think some people think they can just do intermittent fasting without necessarily changing what they eat, which is one of the magics of intermittent fasting is that it does often work for people regardless of their dietary choices. But there's a lot of magic that can happen and potential that can happen if you also look at the dietary choices. And there's so many really simple things you can try, especially paired with an intermittent fasting thing, especially if you haven't made dietary choices before. So it could be as simple as just switching to only whole foods like that can have a massive effect if you're eating processed foods, if you've never worked on changed macros up before. So trying a low carb approach or even trying a low fat approach, which I say hesitantly because I don't want to create like a low fat zeitgeist here. But by that, I just mean a more protein centric, not adding a ton of fat, you know, to your meals. I'm focusing on protein, you know, that's another really huge one. So basically looking at what you eat within the context of intermittent fasting can I think have a big effect for a lot of people. And then like you said, with the, you know, the stress and where people are in their life and like end point in time, I do think okay, so I do think intermittent fasting can work for most people. I do think it probably works better and easier for certain people than others. Like some people just seem to be much more like their body is much more, I guess, open to it and adapted to it and does well with it. Whereas other people, it just doesn't quite fit them as much, even though I think it probably still would work for most people. But for example, like I think it works really well for people like, like me and you Vanessa, because you mentioned earlier in the show how you are a an abstainer, not a moderator. So like, we like, you know, we like food and we like eating when we're eating. And we don't like having just like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. But at least for me, I don't like, it's like miserable to me to do like have like just like a little bit and then like stop like that's just so miserable to me. So the idea of like small little meals throughout the day, just not that just doesn't, it makes me feel so hungry, so unsatisfied. So something like fasting where I'm having all my meals in a shortened time period is glorious for me because I can eat all I want. And then when I'm not eating, I'm not eating and it's just fantastic. Some people do love the more moderationist approach and eating smaller meals. And for them, you know, they might benefit actually from a longer eating window where they eat smaller meals throughout that longer window. So I think really paying attention to, you know, what you like and who you are, I wouldn't want to create like this blanket statement of it just doesn't work for some people because while I'm sure there are some people it doesn't work for. my personal opinion, I think that's a very small percentage of people. I do think most people can find something that works for them. So I just want to dispel the idea that like, oh, like, I don't think it's like 50 -50 that like half the people it doesn't work for and half the people it does. I think most people it can really work for. So for Wendy, yeah, maybe some of that will help. So maybe Wendy can work with a practitioner to look at her hormonal levels, look at what else might be going on in her body, you know, making sure she's giving it enough time. And also looking at food choices within the eating window. Yeah, many other.

Vanessa Spina:
thoughts about that? I think you answered it really thoroughly and yeah I don't have anything else to add but I just want to say you know I relate and I know the feeling of frustration, of feeling like you're trying everything and nothing is working and you know I don't want you to give up hope hopefully you'll be able to you know find a solution and figure out you know what it is sometimes it takes the help of working with with someone you know potentially who can help guide you and figure on figuring out what the source of it is so let us know if you if you do end up working with maybe a functional practitioner or someone else and if you do find something that works for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes, please do. Awesome, okay, well, this was absolutely wonderful. So a few things for listeners before we go. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions at ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com and you can submit questions there. These show notes will be at ifpodcast.com/episode 377 and they will have a full transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. So definitely check that out. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are iapodcast, I am Melanie Avalon and Vanessa is ketogenic girl. So I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had so much fun with you and congrats again on your Fox article and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much, you were so kind. I had so much fun as well, and I can't wait to talk to you next week.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay, talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jun 30

Episode 376: Spirulina, Vegan Protein, Vitamins, Trace Minerals, Toxin Chelation, Nutrient Density, GNP Certified, Mind Blown Podcast, Behind The Mic Wellness, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Welcome to Episode 376 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

SEED: This episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you in part by Seed. Seed's DS-01 Daily Synbiotic is a 2-in-1 prebiotic and probiotic formulated to support gut health, skin health, and overall well-being. With clinically and scientifically studied strains, Seed's Daily Synbiotic promotes digestive health, boosts immune function, and enhances your body's nutrient absorption. Start your journey to a healthier you with Seed's innovative and effective synbiotic formula. Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any purchase! Learn all about electrolytes in Episode 237 - our interview with Robb Rolf!

SEED: Go to seed.com/ifpodcast and use code 25IFPODCAST to get 25% off your first month of DS-01®!

Spirulina nutrients

Nutrient deficiency

The creation of Melanie's spirulina

GNP Certified

Tested for potency and purity

The flavor

The formulation

Silica

Spirulina release

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 376 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 376 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I am here today with a very, very special guest, a repeat guest, Scott Emmons. How many times have you been on this show? Do you know?

Scott Emmens:
Wow, welcome. Thanks, Melanie. Thank you for the warm welcome. I think I think I've been on this show. This might be my sixth time.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, so you're basically like just another co -host of the show.

Scott Emmens:
Almost. Ten more shows and I'll maybe reach that status.

Melanie Avalon:
Honorary oh we could give you like an honorary you know how like colleges give like honorary degrees

Scott Emmens:
Yes, can I get an honorary ifpodcasting degree?

Melanie Avalon:
An honorary I have podcast co -host.

Scott Emmens:
Love it. Sign me up. How many episodes do I have to do? 15 total. Done. Okay. I love this podcast. I love the people. I love the podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
I do too. It's a fun place to be and it's changed so much over the years and yeah, I'm very grateful for it. And I'm really excited about today's conversation because I feel like this is a long time coming.

Scott Emmens:
Oh, it's a long time coming.

Melanie Avalon:
This is a long time coming, friends. I know you guys have been really eagerly awaiting and asking questions about when I was going to launch my spirulina supplement, also chlorella, we can touch on that briefly. And it's finally here, actually. So when this airs, obviously we're recording this in the past now for listeners, but so hopefully when this airs in theory, you should be able to buy my new AvalonX spirulina supplement and there should be an awesome launch special going on. So now is the time, we did it. And we just wanted to take a moment to A, tell you guys the crazy story leading up to it, why we decided to make this supplement and also just update, I think listeners a little bit in general about the supplement world and everything that we've been doing together and all the things to come. So how does that sound?

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, there's so much I think we have to cover about all the different things we've been doing behind the scenes and this product, I think, Melanie, it's almost a year in in production.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's been a long time. And what's really exciting, because I know, Scott, you listened to this show, right? Correct. Okay, so I think right now, like while you and I are recording, I think the episode that is playing this week with Vanessa and I, I think we talked a lot about spirulina because unbeknownst to me, Vanessa's low -key obsessed with it as well, like unrelated to me.

Scott Emmens:
Loking you obsessed with spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And then so we went on just a tangent because, and we can go on this tangent ourselves as well as to like how overwhelmingly mind -blowing, amazing it sort of is. It's so cute. So she gives it to her son, like, so she was having to take a, you might've listened to this, but she's, she was having to take a lot of different vitamins and supplements related to her pregnancy. And her son, Luca, who is like a wee little child, there was like vitamins or pills being taken and her son Luca really wanted to take some. So she gives him spirulina at night and they call that his medicine. So he feels like he gets to take medicine too.

Scott Emmens:
He's part of the supplement crowd. He gets to take his own supplements. He's a big boy now. I love it.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, yes. But what's really my willing friends. Okay, so true story. We can backtrack. I guess we could actually first say how I came to spirulina and what spirulina actually is. Is that a good idea?

Scott Emmens:
I think that's perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, spirulina and chlorella, they're both blue -green algaes and they are overwhelmingly abundant in nutrients to a, honestly, to a shocking degree. My like moment story about that is when we were working on the label, I asked if we could put a more detailed breakdown of the nutrient facts on the label. And then, so I like pulled up the nutrients and I literally couldn't believe it. Like I was reading them and I was like, is this right? Like, does it really have this much of all of these different nutrients? And it does. So it's what's really, really amazing about it is that it is a straight up whole foods vegan form way to get all of these nutrients in their most bioactive, bioavailable form because you're not getting them synthetic, you're not getting them in a pill. It's just real whole food that just has this overwhelming array of nutrients, which I can go into. And I can tell about how I first found it, but when did you first come across them?

Scott Emmens:
I think I first heard about spirulina probably going on almost 10 years. It's probably been 2015 at the earliest, but definitely by 16 I was on the spirulina bandwagon. I had always known about chlorophyll and the benefits of certain greens, but spirulina came into my world. I want to say I was listening to a podcast, a biohacking podcast in 2016, and I remember ordering it right around that time. It was 2016, I think at the latest. So I want to say it's been like eight solid years I've been taking spirulina.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's crazy. I think for me, similar, I first came across it probably around like 20, actually, yeah, very similar, like 2014, 2015. I was first interested more in chlorella for its detox potential, for how it chelates toxins in the body. And then it got really confusing because there's the whole chlorella spirulina debate. And then there's all these concerns about purity. And so I kind of like flirted with it in the past. And then a couple of years ago, probably now I had Catherine Arnston on my biohacking podcast, she has a company called energy bits, they make a really wonderful chlorella and a spirulina and a blend. She is, this is like her thing, like she's so passionate about it. And having her on the show, I really helped me dive deep and learn everything there was to know. And I was like, this is so amazing. Like I want to make my own someday. And side note, I actually I recently got back from the biohacking conference in Dallas, Dave Asprey's conference, I highly recommend friends, but I will stop myself from going on too much of a tangent. But if you want to like learn about all the biohacking things and meet all the brands and see all the products and, you know, go to lots of in person real life talks with, you know, a lot of guests I've had on my show that the biohacking conference is the way to be I am definitely going next year. It's gonna be an Austin Scott, are you gonna come?

Scott Emmens:
I'm 100% going to be there. It is definitely, if you're a biohacking nerd, it's the place to be.

Melanie Avalon:
You have to come, Scott. I wanted you to come this year.

Scott Emmens:
I know this year was a tough year for me, but next year, 100%, I'm in. Are you going to dress up for the dance? I don't know about the dance, but...

Melanie Avalon:
but i'll be there okay this year it was a space cowboy dance would you have dressed up for that

Scott Emmens:
Oh yeah, space cowboy, come on, that's two of my favorite things, space and cowboys, I love that.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, so it's like theme pending as to whether or not you will dress up.

Scott Emmens:
Correct. Right theme, I'm in.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, if it's not the right theme for me, I just make it the right theme.

Scott Emmens:
I could try, I could try.

Melanie Avalon:
you know, I like find the tangential outfit that embodies what I would like to wear.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, but that's you. Like you're, you're really good at that. Like you can sort of, you know, ad lib your way into creating all kinds of unique things. I think I'm going to need a pretty firm, good theme to really get me get my juices going.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll help you out.

Scott Emmens:
All right. Deal. Okay.

Melanie Avalon:
So oh, that was a supplement. Okay, wait, sorry not to go on like on a tangent But right before the the space cowboy a cowgirl dance when you were like walking in they gave us all a supplement Do you want to guess what it was?

Scott Emmens:
Walking into this space cowboy dance?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, so like you're okay, so let me give you like the setup like you're walking into the dance and they like hand you this packet and they're like, we're all going to take this together at this time. And I can give you a hint.

Scott Emmens:
I'm going to guess element.

Melanie Avalon:
No.

Scott Emmens:
All right, so then, what could it be?

Melanie Avalon:
can give you a hint.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, give me a small hint though

Melanie Avalon:
After we all took it, not only could we maybe tell like energy -wise, you could tell looking at people that they took it.

Scott Emmens:
Could it have been an edible of some kind of CBD?

Melanie Avalon:
No, you could physically tell.

Scott Emmens:
Ah, methylene blue to pep you up. Yes. Yeah, blue tongues.

Melanie Avalon:
Blue tongues. And what's weird is it was like you swallowed it and still blue tongues, you know, like it wasn't like we took a liquid like we swallowed a pill and yet blue tongues all around.

Scott Emmens:
So I wouldn't have expected the blue tongue with swallowing it, but it I mean, it's powerful. I I'd take like a drop from time to time and put it you know, just squirt like a drop in my mouth mixed with water and my peel be green or bluish green like two hours later.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh yeah, I forgot, I totally forgot I took it and then when I went to the ration later, I was like, whoa.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I mean, it comes out.

Melanie Avalon:
It comes out like glue.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, it's like a bluish green, like it looks like pool water.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, uh -huh.

Scott Emmens:
It does give you a lot of energy though, doesn't it?

Melanie Avalon:
I was like, I actually want to start integrating this into my routine. And what's ironic is you and I might've talked about this before. I was taking that like way back in the day, like when it was not a thing, like you had to get the fish, the fish tank stuff.

Scott Emmens:
I buy the pharmaceutical laboratory stuff, so it's supposed to be lab only, but I take it anyway.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I kind of want to, wait, maybe we should make one.

Scott Emmens:
Technically, methylene blue is not a supplement. Yeah, it's one of those fringe supplements. Although that's why if you go on Amazon, it's all lab results for cell culture dying, but they don't sell it to actually take. The only place you can get it is individual websites, and I don't know how long they're going to be around.

Melanie Avalon:
Gotcha. Okay. Well, boom, boom, guess not.

Scott Emmens:
There was a company that was making those truckies, remember that? And they had to stop advertising on the podcast because the FDA was cracking down on them. Yeah, but I'm a big fan, big fan. I mean, I don't know why Methylene Blue is so... why they're so opposed to Methylene Blue being on the market, but I think Methylene Blue was the first FDA approved drug. You know what it was originally used for? Not, I shouldn't say, not its only original use. So one of its original uses was for dyeing blue jeans, like the original 501 blue jeans that used Methylene Blue to dye it.

Melanie Avalon:
That is crazy. And I just asked chat GPT and it confirmed. Yes. The first drug approved by the FDA. That's crazy.

Scott Emmens:
Isn't that crazy? How about that? How about we hold on to that factoid for like 10 years to use it today?

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I know. Wow. Okay. Yep. Well, in any case, yeah, staining agent. So how do we get on the, oh, right. The biohacking conference.

Scott Emmens:
The biohecky conference, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
I hope my code still works. Hopefully it's live already, but the code BC, Melanie, that was the code last year to get you a discount. So maybe it's a discount now. I will circle back on that. Point being back to spirulina. Oh, that's why it came up because I met Catherine again in person at this year's conference. And she had her energy bets booth. And it was really great to connect with her and talk about all the awesome benefits of spirulina and chlorella and made me even more further pumped about hours. So circling back to the benefits, OK, friends, prepare yourself. So spirulina, for example, like I said, it's a blue -green algae. It's actually, granted, you're taking a small serving size. So it's not like you're going to have this as your protein intake, but it's very high in protein. So a serving size would be 30 tablets. We are making the tablets because when it's in powder form, it just gets everywhere. So for example, so 30 tablets protein -wise has 4 grams of protein. And that is a complete vegan protein, which is rare in the vegetable, vegan, non -animal world, non -carnival world. And then for example, so hours, 30 tablets, you get, by taking this, you get 100% of your vitamin K, 100%. And vitamin K is difficult to get.

Scott Emmens:
Not easy to get.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's like one of those nutrients that's super important and not in that many things and high amounts. You get, are you ready friends? 625% of your vitamin B12. This is huge, especially people on plant -based diets are often can be deficient in B12 because typically it's normally found in animal products. So with spirulina, you can just wave right past that. Not only get your full day's worth, but get 625% worth.

Scott Emmens:
That's really huge, Melanie, because there are so many vegan diets or vegan products that the whole foods that don't have vitamin B12, really, it's mostly meat products you have to get B12 from. To me, that's a huge advantage for the vegan population. If they're looking for a way to get solid protein and solid B12 consumption, it's perfect.

Melanie Avalon:
Honestly, like if you're vegan, this should be required, like you should just like have to have this. And then also in general, I'll circle back to that. So for the other B vitamins, so it has 27% of your B2 and then it has smaller amounts of the other ones, like 3% of your B1, 3% of your B6 and 6% of your B3, your niacin. This one is huge. Iron. And I think chlorella is actually higher in iron than spirulina, but for spirulina, iron 53% of your iron.

Scott Emmens:
That's a lot iron.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I know I personally, actually, I hadn't thought about this, but because I have a history of anemia, really bad anemia, really, really bad. I wonder if it correlates. I haven't had to do anything to address it in the past few years, and that's probably when I started regularly taking spirulina. I wonder if there's a correlation there, so that's awesome. Has 8% of your magnesium, friends, you know that we are big magnesium fans around here. It's got 86% of your chromium, and then it has like trace amounts of other things like 8% of your selenium, 2% of your zinc, 5% of your phosphorus, then what's super cool beyond that is not only does it have these typical nutrients that you might think of, it also has very unique phytonutrients and things you might not expect. For example, it actually has glutathione in it, which is very cool. Has chlorophyll, which we were talking about earlier, which is a side note, also if you struggle with anemia or iron deficiency, chlorophyll, I learned this when I interviewed Terri Cochran on the Biohacking Podcast, so we can put a link to that in the show notes, but she talks a lot about the role of chlorophyll for actually boosting iron levels, which is really, really interesting. And chlorophyll is great for detox, energy, skin, nice breath. I used to take it, man, forever ago, I used to take just straight chlorophyll as like a breath freshener. It also has, this one is super cool, it has superoxide dismutase in it, which is something you normally hear about not as like a supplement or a food. It's a compound in your body that really helps combat oxidative stress, and you can literally get that from spirulina. It has zeosanthan, which is a really potent antioxidant.

Scott Emmens:
Great for your eyes.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yes. Yes. Very true. Something else really great. It has DHA, which is a great essential fatty acid in the omega -3 category, and it has GLA, which is actually in the omega -6 category, but it has a lot of beneficial effects. It doesn't have the typical inflammatory omega -6 effects that we think of. It also has trace minerals that you might have heard of like molybdenum, boron, it has some calcium. I'm going to stop now because this just sounds like a really long list, but it's just kind of overwhelming.

Scott Emmens:
One other thing I just want to touch on, Melanie, although it's very low in carbohydrates, the carbohydrates that it does contain can include glycerol, sorbitol, mannitol, and myonositol. And as you know, I'm sort of obsessed with osmolites. And glycerol, sorbitol, and myonositol all act as osmolites, which are really hydrating for your cells. They help your cells create the proper hydration intercellularly. So, this is a great way to keep your hydration up as well because of those unique carbohydrates that are called osmolites, which work to pull in electrolytes into the cell and fluid into the cell.

Melanie Avalon:
I do not know that. It's very cool. Like honestly, ever since I was exposed to it and have learned more and more, we talk so often about nutrient deficiencies today. And we know that our soils are really depleted. And so the food we're actually eating from the soils with produce and then conventional agriculture, all of the issues there, we're just not getting the nutrients that we used to get historically. And nutrients are just so, so key for so many metabolic processes in our body. And even people trying to lose weight and such, a lot of that is often due to just not getting the nutrition that your body needs. For example, I found it really interesting. I was reading a study recently in whose book was it? I'm prepping right now for two interviews. I'm prepping for Casey Means, who is the founder of Levels that makes the CGM and then Dr. Michael Greger, who is, you're familiar with Dr. Greger, right Scott?

Scott Emmens:
I know the name, I don't know, I can't place the specialty.

Melanie Avalon:
He's like the vegan of vegans of vegans. He wrote how not to die, how not to age, how not to die.

Scott Emmens:
Yep, I know you're talking about the vegan.

Melanie Avalon:
In any case, in one of those books, I'm trying to remember which one it was, they were talking about a study where basically people were put on either, basically they could eat a whole foods diet or a processed diet and it was pretty controlled. What was so interesting, I think it was Kevin Hall, it was Dr. Casey Means' book. I think it was a four -week study. They did two weeks in one arm, two weeks in the other arm. The first two weeks was basically processed foods and then the second two weeks was whole foods. They found that when people ate the processed food diet, they ate way more calories and they were way hungrier the whole time and they were gaining weight. Then they flip it, they eat whole foods, they ate way less calories, yet they were much fuller and they lost weight. The reason I'm talking about this, I just think it's so, so important, is that hunger, satiety, cravings, they're not about not having ample energy in general. They can be, but in general, especially in our processed food environment today, they're not about you actually need more food. They're often about you're not getting the nutrients that you need. Adding something like spirulina to your meals or you could put in smoothies, you could swallow it whole if you want. Oh, we can circle back to the taste of ours. That is such a way to really quickly and easily get those nutrients that your body is craving. That can be so, so important and so key for combating cravings, hunger, and supporting weight loss, which I think is amazing.

Scott Emmens:
Absolutely. I mean, satiety is so closely linked, I think, to the actual amount of nutrients your body is taking in, whether that's macro or micronutrients. I mean, you know, you can tell if you sit down and eat a bunch of sweet potatoes, try to eat three sweet potatoes plus two bowls of broccoli, you're gonna have a hard time getting three sweet potatoes and two bowls of broccoli down. So you're gonna be very satiated, but you're getting a ton of nutrients and a ton of macro and micronutrients in there, which really, you know, crushes that satiety. And I think spirulina has the ability to do the same thing with a very low caloric intake, you're getting so much nutrition and so many nutrients, micro and macro.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so so true and you know because people especially with intermittent fasting sometimes if they're not adapting or they're struggling with cravings or they feel like they're white knuckling it there I mean there are a lot of different approaches that you can take to really help that you know we love like clean fasting and you know not having artificially flavored sweeteners during the fast and just having you know water and black coffee but really addressing what you're eating in your eating window I think is so so huge for how you ultimately are going to feel while you fast and so making sure that it's nutrient rich with something like spirulina is just a really incredible pathway that the people can go oh yeah speaking of the taste so I guess we could go through the process of Scott of developing our spirulina

Scott Emmens:
Wow, it was a very lengthy process, including the sourcing, where we were going to source it from. That took some doing because we wanted to have all of that with a C of A, we wanted to have that FDA approved, and then we wanted to do our own testing on that product to ensure that it met all of the marks of the COA and better, and to ensure that all of the heavy metals and contaminants were below all the thresholds significantly. So I think just sourcing it, I think, took several months.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, and I just want to say props to you. I'm just so grateful for everything that you do with, you know, looking for sources and betting and it's really incredible. I'm really, really grateful. And, and so when we actually, so we finally found a source that we love and friends, I'm so excited because I, I was doing a lot of research on the company that makes our spirulina. So it's in beautiful pristine waters of Hawaii. I'm blown away by their sustainability practices. It's incredible. They do a lot with their water usage, their electricity, like everything they do is just really, really sustainable for the planet. And then they have incredible practices in place to grow this really healthy, nutritious spirulina free of pesticides, toxins, things like that. I know a lot of people look, for example, for the USDA organic certification, which I have learned a lot about that certification. And I will say in general, I think it's great because it's, you know, it lets people at the grocery store find things where there is at least a, they know that certain things are being followed when it comes to toxins and, you know, all the problems with conventional food and produce and supplements and things like that. All of that said, there's a few different caveats. One is that, well, A, being organic doesn't mandate that something is actually sustainable or regenerative for the planet. And B, companies can be, and this goes with all food, companies can be doing practices that would meet criteria for organic standards and beyond that, but they just don't actually have the certification. So that's why for me personally, when looking at food choices, when making supplements, for me, it's really important to find the source and really look into what is that company actually doing, whether or not they have an organic certification. So, for example, our spirulina does not have a USDA organic certification. And I feel completely fine about it because of all the testing that we've done and research.

Scott Emmens:
Well, Melanie, I think it's important that we discuss the process of GMP certification and the process MD logic goes through with our co -brands and in particular, all the products that we've made with Avalonix and Spearline is no exception. You know, as you recall with Burberry, we went through extensive testing from five different suppliers of raw ingredient and Burberry until we found the one that met all of our specifications. And I think that's maybe even an overlooked step. But all of the steps in the MD logic, you know, quality assurance process are really, really important. We are a GMP certified facility, US manufactured only. And we take that very seriously. So the first step that we do is we identify an active ingredient or supplier of that active ingredient, in this case, Spearline. And then we make certain that they are an FDA certified active ingredient supplier that also provides a certificate of authenticity or a COA. Now this includes detailed information about the composition, concentration of the ingredients, as well as ensuring that it's free of heavy metals, bacteria, and other contaminants. So once we've got the COA FDA approved facility or multiple, we then test that ingredient to make sure that the C of A meets the specifications that we come up with in the laboratory analysis. Now that's not always done. So the very first thing that we do is test the raw ingredient from these manufacturers. And we do a blind test in batches. In other words, we don't say tell them, hey, we're going to test your product and send us a sample. We just do a blind batch test. So it's, you know, a real life scenario. Basically, the ingredient that we're getting is the ingredient that we're testing. These initial tests take place on the ingredient level, meaning we're not just testing the finished product. We're actually testing every ingredient that's going to be in that formula and every ingredient that walks the door. Before we even let it into the facility, we test the product in quarantine to prevent any cross -contamination. We've tested for identity, which confirms that the ingredient that they say it is is in fact the actual ingredient. And that's typically performed through some kind of chromatography or spectrometry test in a lab. So these are lab certified tests. Then we test for the purity. So we want to make sure that this product is as pure as possible, meaning heavy metals, microbial content, other toxins, molds, and sometimes it will also test for pesticide residues. Then we're going to test the potency. This measures like the active ingredient and the strength and concentration, ensuring that each batch and each batch of that ingredient we get has the correct potency, meaning it has all of the nutrients and the concentration that it's supposed to have for that particular ingredient, in this case, again, spirulina. And then finally, what is the composition of that? So we want to make sure that the proportions of all the ingredients are aligned. So in this case, really, it's just spirulina, along with a tiny bit of silica. but really it's 99 .9% spirulina. So the composition testing, let's say for a more complex product that has seven or eight ingredients in it, you're gonna test to make sure that all of the ratios and all of the products that were put into that formula are in fact what we say is in it. So that's really the last step. Then there is the stability testing, which makes sure that the product is going to remain stable in various temperatures and environmental settings for at least two years. So once the stability test is done, that's the very, very final test, but all of these tests, the identity, purity, potency, and strength of the product are all tested at the ingredient level. Then we do additional tests for composite or composition and stability with the final product. We also repeat all of the initial tests again on the final product. So that's identity, purity, and potency are all repeated on the final product to make sure that during manufacturing, nothing went wrong and that it's as pure as it was when we first got the ingredient. So it's really a dual laboratory test. So that is in essence, what GMP manufacturing testing looks like. There are also several other things if you're a GMP facility that you're going to be tasked with and that's a quality management system, which has a robust process to make sure that all of the procedures are being followed. You have personal training and hygiene requirements that are audited by the FDA. And in fact, it is the FDA that monitors and certifies GMP facilities. You have facility equipment validation, meaning the equipment has to be validated to make sure that it measures things properly, that they're cleaned properly, they're installed properly, and they're performing properly. You've got raw material audits, which is what we just discussed, all those different testing for identity, purity, potency, and composition. And then you have production and process control testing, as well as QC and some other documents. So there is, if you are a GMP facility, you are under FDA guidance and FDA regulation. As long as you're following those GMP procedures, you're going to get a decent quality product. But again, we kind of go that step above to make sure that we only deal with USFDA certified facilities for active ingredient. We only take companies that provide a COA. We only take those COAs that meet our specifications, and then we test all of those parameters to make sure that the C of A specifications we come up with in the laboratory are either at or better than what the certificate authenticity suggests that it has. So the quality of the spirulina is undoubtedly fantastic. And I really love the company we've gone with. It is a Hawaiian -based, so it's a US -based, Hawaii -based spirulina. So this product from beginning to end is a USA -made, USA -grown product. And I feel really good about the way the company has sustainable practices for spirulina. They've been in business for close to 40 years. They are one of the pioneers in spirulina, and they really have a passion to help educate the community and the world about what spirulina can do and the power and benefit of it. And they're continually giving back to the community of spirulina and sort of the health and wellness community at large. So love the company, love the spirulina, and it passed with flying colors through our very rigorous GMP certification for purity, potency, and identity. I hope that helps the listeners.

Melanie Avalon:
I always wait with bated breath when we're third -party testing it, because I'm like, what if it's new? Especially with this one we've been taking so long. We finally found it, but yes, it got a clean pass. Clean bill of health. Yeah. And I'm just going to say, I think it tastes... I really like the way it tastes, because I know some people don't like the taste of spirulina and or chlorella. This one is... And I've tried a lot of different spirulinas in my life. This is honestly the best tasting spirulina that I have tried, hands down. I love it.

Scott Emmens:
Agreed.

Melanie Avalon:
my sister agreed to. We sat there, we were like trying different ones. Speaking of, another reason that it took so long, friends, is because we went through a lot of iterations trying to get the tablet structure down. And that's because I've seen brands on the market that claim to be one ingredient only. And you guys know me, I'm all about, I love single ingredients and looking at the fillers and I'm just a little bit neurotic about that. And Scott, I feel so bad for you and Oscar and everybody. The team. Because basically, they kept sending me samples of spirulina made with different fillers and even one made without any fillers. And I was so neurotic, I was like, we have to have no fillers because it's possible because I see it out there. And you guys kept telling me it's not possible. You kept saying it's literally not possible. We can't make it in this travelable tablet that won't be shutting everywhere if there's not something in there. And I was like, it is possible because I have it from other brands. And we had a bet going. You guys were like, we're going to test these other brands and see what's actually happening. And you guys were right. So long story short, if a supplement or is it supplements and food products? Basically, if an ingredient in the product is below a certain threshold, like so minimal, you don't actually have to have it on the label. So that's what's happening often.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah. We're not making any claim that it's always happening, but more times than not, it has to be below a certain threshold and then it qualifies as a single ingredient.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So that explains the mystery of why I thought it was possible to have a single ingredient spirulina, yet you guys were telling me it wasn't really possible. So once I accepted reality that it had to have another ingredient, it was actually really good timing because around this time, because you guys were proposing that we put in like a teeny tiny bit of silica into it. And around this time, I actually was prepping to do an interview all on, well, not completely on silica, but it was with a company called All Queen Springs. Oh, don't even get me started on that because Scott, I'm obsessed with their water. I'm so obsessed. It's like the most amazing water ever.

Scott Emmens:
more than the deuterium depleted water?

Melanie Avalon:
Here's the thing about it. I was drinking deuterium depleted water. Theirs is naturally deuterium depleted. The water I was drinking before was distilled to be deuterium depleted, so super low deuterium, which is awesome, which is super amazing. It's great. It's very expensive. Their water is naturally low in deuterium, so it's way lower than most water people would be drinking. It comes from this Aquine Springs. I forgot where it is. It's in the US. It's straight from the underground. It never touches anything else. They immediately bottle it and you buy it, and it's really, really high in silica, as well as other nutrients. My sister and I, the other day, we did a water taste test, a blind taste test. It's crazy how different this water tastes. I can guarantee you they could do a blind taste test and they would taste the difference, and it just makes you feel so good. Side note, I learned all about the benefits of silica, prepping for that. I went from being like, I don't want any silica to, oh my goodness, maybe I should actually be taking silica as a supplement.

Scott Emmens:
I mean, silica is miraculous and it's great for skin health, it's great for joint health, it's wonderful for hair, skin and nails. So silica is one of those things that if you're going to use a filler or you're going to use a product to help enhance another product, silica is one of the best things you can use.

Melanie Avalon:
So it's ironic because on the one hand I want to be like, take this spirulina, it has silica, all these benefits. At the same time, it's like such a tiny amount of silica that I don't know how many benefits you're actually getting from the actual silica, but at the very least it's completely benign. It's not one ingredient, but it's almost one ingredient. If anything, the other ingredient has health benefits to it. So yeah, once we landed on the formulation, and then we had the whole journey with the label.

Scott Emmens:
We had the label journey. That was fun. That was another couple of months. I think I think it came out fantastic though. I love it

Melanie Avalon:
So this is how supplement business calls pretty much go down with me. We had a meeting, I had like an idea in my head of what I wanted the label to be and I was looking at all these different pictures of like Hawaii and flowers and I found this picture of a mermaid that just embodied everything I wanted, like the vibe of it, the colors, like all the things. And so we were having a design meeting and I had it up and I was saying like, this is what I'm thinking, like this vibe. And like in my head, but prior to that, I was like, maybe we could actually have the mermaid on the cover, but then I was like, we can't have the mermaid on the cover, like who are you kidding? And so we're having the meeting with like the whole team and who was it? I think somebody, I mean, somebody made a joke about like, I think you did, I think you were like, maybe we could just use the mermaid. And I was like, ha ha, wait, but really can we? And Scott and I, Scott and I were the only ones really that were team mermaid. The entire rest of the team was not so much the team mermaid.

Scott Emmens:
I think they liked the mermaid. I think it just from a design aspect that created certain problems, especially trying to get all the information on the label and still keep the mermaid in in the label. So I agree. I think the mermaid embodies the the brand and the essence of purity. I think people love that. But I think it was just a difficulty level, which we pulled off. But I think that's what people were more afraid of.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, I remember we were having the call and you were like, I was like, well, can we have the mermaid? And you were like, well, Starbucks has a mermaid or sorry. Don't they, is it a mermaid or it's like a goddess.

Scott Emmens:
It is a mermaid, technically, though. Is it a mermaid? I think so. Mermaid, or what's the other... What do they call... What else do they call mermaids? They call them... There's another name for mermaids that's more like...

Melanie Avalon:
Is there another name for a mermaid?

Scott Emmens:
The sirens siren is the other name i think it might be referred to that as the siren but i think it's a goddess of some kind on that on the starbucks label.

Melanie Avalon:
I will just never forget that moment because I remember I personally wanted to fight for the mermaid, and I think you were feeling the mermaid, but we weren't sure how much of each other we were into it or not. So you were trying to feel me out, and Scott kept bringing it back to the mermaid to kind of see if we could go that route, and the rest of the team was a little bit hesitant. But it ultimately manifested. Her name is Essence, speaking of. I'm excited. The packaging is like everything I could want. I'm really excited to see what people think, you know, which way they go.

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I think I mean, the design team, I think pulled it off. I think it came out spectacular. And I think they're really thrilled with it, too. So it's a win -win across the board. I did look up Starbucks real quick because I was so curious. It is the image of a two -tailed siren. And it's a mythical creature combined with it's a mermaid and a serpent combined. So Starbucks is not quite a mermaid, but close. A mermaid and a serpent? It says a two -tailed siren, two -tailed siren wearing a star star crown. So it's a two -tailed siren. That's all I got.

Melanie Avalon:
I should be that for Halloween someday. It'll be a good costume.

Scott Emmens:
Well, now that you've created a logo with a mermaid, you probably should be a mermaid.

Melanie Avalon:
I know, I was thinking, I was like, I could dress up as my mascot. Oh my goodness. So yes, so friends, you have to let me know what you think of the packaging. And I plan to, so because people have been asking, you know, are we going to make a chlorella as well or a blend, we do plan to do both of those.

Scott Emmens:
Correct. I think Chlorella is the next up, I believe.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I'm really excited about that. So friends, if you would like to get spirulina in your life, here's why you should stock up now. So it was really, really important to me to make it as affordable as possible. Some of the spirulina, chlorella and such on the market can be a little bit, there's a bit of a barrier there with pricing. So we did all that we could do to make it as affordable as possible. And during the launch, it's going to be 20% off, which is crazy and amazing, which the launch is going on right now. So basically right now stock up, we're thinking it's probably going to be just 20% off on the website, probably no code needed. If there is a code I will have and we'll be announcing it on my email list and with text updates. So make sure you are on those lists and getting those updates. So for the email list, it's avalonx.us/email list. For the text updates, you text avalonx, that's A -V -A -L -O -N -X, just one word, just type that I get so many different things, text it to that number and it only subscribes to you and sends you the code if it is that word avalonx. So text that to 877 -861 -8318. That's avalonx to 877 -861 -8318. Doing that in the email list. If there is a code, you'll get it. If not, it will just be on the website at avalonx .us. And I am so excited because I need this in my life currently right now. And I have been for a while now. I have spirulina every single night. I just have it with my food. It's like a non -negotiable. I'm really excited to be taking my own.

Scott Emmens:
Melanie i'm going to surprise you with some good news because it is being shipped to the warehouse for shipping tomorrow so it's ahead of schedule.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. So I get my sample soon.

Scott Emmens:
you're going to get your sample bags in very short order.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I'm so excited, I am so excited. Okay, that's amazing.

Scott Emmens:
That's hot off the press. Live, shocking Melanie moment.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love it. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Scott, because it's been a long time coming, and I know also I was really pressing to have an earlier launch, so thank you for everything that you've done.

Scott Emmens:
My pleasure. This is a product I'm super proud to have helped you make and proud to put this on the market. I cannot wait to see the feedback and start to try it myself.

Melanie Avalon:
I just think it's so interesting how, and I'm sounding like a broken record, so maybe I'll, you know, kind of end it with this, but we think we need to be taking like multivitamins and you know, all these people are always looking for these pills to fill in these nutritional gaps and there's something in your own backyard or in your own back ocean, literally creating all of that and you know, like I said, a whole foods form with way more other things to boot. And so yeah, I just, I'm really, really excited. I don't like to term like superfood because I think it's really misleading because I think there's just lots of really great foods and there's no one food that will, you know, save you or pave the pathway to longevity and the fountain of youth. If I had to pick a superfood, honestly, it probably would be spirulina and or chlorella.

Scott Emmens:
I'm looking at an article from the National Library of Medicine. It's an abstract titled, Wide Range of Applications of Spirulina from Earth to Space Missions. And they actually quote it as the world's first superfood. Oh. Yes. And then in this article, they also specifically point out that spirulina, I'm quoting now from the article, spirulina has been known since ancient times as a superfood. Aztecs collected it from the Alkaline Lake, Mexico as an integral part of their diet. So this has been being eaten by the Aztecs as part of their nutritional supplementation in their diet.

Melanie Avalon:
And didn't they use it on the space station? Am I making that up?

Scott Emmens:
I know for certain it's been used by NASA. I don't know specifically the space, the International Space Station, but for sure NASA used it. They were looking at it specifically as a source, not only for the short -term missions, but also a long -term source of nutrition for trips to Mars. So it could be that Elon Musk is actually testing how to grow it in space.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing what he is.

Scott Emmens:
I said it could be I don't know it is listed in here in this article they do talk about it being the perfect food for interstellar space travel because it can be grown in very small tanks for a small crew and to our discussion point has so many nutritional and medicinal values so it's a it's a perfect product to take into space because of its significant nutrition program.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's amazing. I'm reading about it here too now, like how they're talking about how it's just such a perfect food and supplement for astronauts because like you said, they get all this nutrition in a really small form and it's easy to grow in small, small controlled environments with minimal resources. So awesome, awesome. Which speaking of space, do you see where I'm going with this? I do. So this episode actually airs July 1st. So sometime around this time, Scott and I are still deciding. We are launching my third podcast, Scott's first podcast. Yeah.

Scott Emmens:
First, another one to come, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, which we will circle back to Scott and I are launching a podcast together and friends. I'm just smiling right now because I'm so excited. So it's it's my first non health and wellness related podcast, although I'm sure some episodes will involve health and wellness, but we are just having the time of our lives recording the show. It's called the mind blown podcast and every single episode we talk about mind blowing stuff like mind blowing stuff.

Scott Emmens:
And our first episode, I think, is a two -parter if memory serves and it's a killer episode. The topic is the Mandela Effect, but we take a very deep dive into certain dates and times that I don't think you've heard before, even if you know what the Mandela Effect is, you're going to love that first episode. Super fun.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. So teaser about that. So the first episode, like Scott said, we just go through basically what the Mandela effect is. And for people who are not familiar, there's a lot of things out there in the world that people remember swear up and down used to be different and apparently have changed now.

Scott Emmens:
Like example would be Chick -fil -A's, how is it spelled? Some people remember C -H -I -C, some people remember C -H -I -C -K.

Melanie Avalon:
So right now it's chick like CHICK. Some people remember like Scott said CHIC or a lot of people remember CHIC.

Scott Emmens:
And then the filet, some people remember it as F -L -F -I -L -E -T, and some people remember it as F -I -L -A. People remember it that way? I think so. Maybe I'm getting my Mandela effects cross -contaminated, but I thought that was the whole thing, that some people got the chick part wrong, some people got the filet part wrong, some people got both parts wrong. Or mixed up, I should say. They swear it was the one way, and it's been changed to a new way.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I'm not sure about the fillet part. I'm sure some people do. I think that the main ones are the CHIC or the CHIK. So that's one. Some of the other really big ones, Berenstein Bears. People remember it being spelled Berenstein, like S -T -E -I -N. And now it's stain.

Scott Emmens:
I would've sworn on my grave it was steam, not stain.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And there's so many of these. One of the ones I recently saw that came to me was, I used to think that Rearview Mirror said objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, but it says objects in mirror are closer than they appear. That one really bothered me because I remember reading that sentence and being confused about what it meant.

Scott Emmens:
Right, because the may doesn't make sense. Well, it either is closer or isn't closer.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, like, what does that mean? It may be closer. So yeah, so listen to Episode One for just all the different ones and basically the history of when this was first discovered, which is around 2009, I think.

Scott Emmens:
Correct, yep, that's what we found out.

Melanie Avalon:
For part two, we talk about a crazy theory that we have. I don't think it's that crazy, actually. We had a mind blown moment where we had an epiphany about the dates surrounding a lot of these. So, oh, Fruit of the Loom.

Scott Emmens:
Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
There is if you remember cornucopia and the fruit of the land there is no cornucopia i want the first way i found the bendel effect was tinkerbell dotting the i so if you remember tinkerbell. And the disney logo dotting the i that didn't happen which is. Discontinued.

Scott Emmens:
I could have sworn I think of all the ones we covered her dotting the little eye with her with her wand I mean, I remember watching that on TV. I could have sworn I saw her do that little dot on the eye

Melanie Avalon:
I can see it right now.

Scott Emmens:
I'm visualizing it, too. That one blows my mind away, not to be pun not intended, but really is mind blowing.

Melanie Avalon:
After that, those episodes, we have so many other really fun topic episodes. So the mind blown podcast tune in. I'm really excited about it. And then Scott is also launching another podcast, Scott.

Scott Emmens:
Yes, I'm going to be launching Behind the Mic Wellness, which is a great podcast. I believe it's going to be a great podcast. It's about getting to know your favorite biohackers and health and wellness podcasters on a whole different level. So I interview people about what got them into podcasting, about their podcast itself, some of their favorite guests, hurdles they had to overcome to get their podcast on the air, what makes them tick. And it's a really interesting way to kind of break that fourth wall and kind of meet your podcast host on a whole different level. And it allows them to kind of present themselves in a whole different way, kind of different than you would hear them on their podcast. And it also gets exposure for them to all these different podcasts. If you're looking for a great new health and wellness podcast or a new biohacking podcast, come over and check out Behind the Mic Wellness. That's going to be launching around the same time, probably in mid to late July. And we're going to have a bunch of your favorite guests, I'm sure you get to hear a lot about what they're doing to make the podcast grow, what their passions are in life, and just get to know them on a whole different, more intimate level.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really excited to listen to that one personally as a podcaster. I, I love hearing the stories of other podcasters. So it's a little bit selfish, but for why I like it, but I'm curious. Cause you, I know you've recorded quite a few episodes. Are you picking up on trends or is it like wild cards without, with how people answer things or what have you experienced?

Scott Emmens:
There's a lot of wild cards, but there is one trend that I don't think will be surprising. Almost all of the health and wellness podcasters got their passion into health and wellness and their podcast start by having their own health issue or something that happened to them in life or something that they discovered how they could change their life and all of a sudden they wanted to share it to the world and share it from the rooftops. That was the singular trend, I would say. People got started, what they decided to pursue, the different hurdles that they faced. Those are all pretty different, I'd say, widely different experiences, but the one core commonality is almost all of them have had some sort of interventional crisis or an aha moment about health and wellness.

Melanie Avalon:
Like, do you ask the same questions or different questions or...

Scott Emmens:
Yeah, I try to, so I have a format that we follow, which is sort of discussing kind of their early history into health and wellness, maybe a little bit about what got them into that particular topic, what got them started with the podcast, some of their greatest hurdles with the podcast, their favorite moments with the podcast. So you really get to understand like what drove them into that health and wellness space, whether it's biohacking or keto or carnivore, you kind of get to understand that, but you also kind of get the fun, unique stories about the bumps in the road to the podcast or maybe something they don't disclose on their own podcast because they're doing the interviewing and now as the interviewee, they get to talk more about themselves. So I get to find out like what are those little nuances about their podcast that they love or that they don't love or things that they have changed over time. So it's kind of a cool way to get to know your podcast on a really intimate level and get to know the host on a more intimate level.

Melanie Avalon:
I love that. Can I tell you what I would want to ask people who are podcasters, like as a podcaster?

Scott Emmens:
Yes, give me your top three questions because I'll start incorporating them.

Melanie Avalon:
I would, I mean, I have to think about it a little more, so I reserve the right to change my mind. But just like off the top of my head, I would want to know, I would want to know if they, because people ask me all the time if they should start a podcast. And they're always really, I think, surprised with how I answer it, which I'm like all about. I'm like, yeah, do it. Like, I'm in full support. And it's funny because I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode and he was talking about how he always, like, left and right is encouraging people to start podcasts. And he says he's probably responsible for like 50 podcasts starting. So I would want to know if somebody were to ask them, should they start a podcast? What would they tell them?

Scott Emmens:
That's a great question.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm really curious if everybody's like, like me where they're like, yeah, do it. Or if some people would be like, uh, think, think hard, long and hard before you, you know, take it on. I would want to know what is the most divergent or different thing from what people might expect as far as like what you, like the reality of podcasting compared to how it's interpreted. Let me, how do I clarify that? So basically like, what would people be kind of shocked to know about podcasting that's different than what you might present or see out there, like behind the scenes.

Scott Emmens:
Would you want that personalized would you want it to be maybe what is the most divergent thing about their personal life versus their on air podcast persona or is that too crossing line too much.

Melanie Avalon:
I like both of those. So I like that, those are like different questions. I like that one. I was thinking more the mechanics of podcasting.

Scott Emmens:
What surprised them most about actually doing the podcast versus the initial dream or thought about it? That's a great question.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, because I know what my answer, I think, would be.

Scott Emmens:
Don't answer because I'm going to ask you on the Mind blown podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay. Oh, you mean on the behind the mic?

Scott Emmens:
I'm sorry, behind the mic podcast, behind the mic wellness, specifically, yes.

Melanie Avalon:
And then I would also want to know probably what was their, it's like a two part or what, what was their best moment or like favorite moment they've had while podcasting and worst moment podcasting.

Scott Emmens:
That I did ask.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, there's so many things I would want to know.

Scott Emmens:
The favorite moment was oftentimes when they asked a great question to someone that they really admired. Those those were and then they gave that specific example.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's actually probably going to be my answer.

Scott Emmens:
Worst moments were having a guest that they loved, but the guest either didn't have the time for them or it just didn't go as they had hoped.

Melanie Avalon:
Have people said, have they ever had a moment where they, like where the guests asked them a question and they weren't like following?

Scott Emmens:
That didn't come up. There were some times where there might have been a point where the guests went off on a tangent and they couldn't rain the guests back in. And those were some fun conversations too about the specifics of how those went down.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I have a question. I would want to know what skills from podcasting have carried over into their real life.

Scott Emmens:
Ooh, that's a great question. I hadn't even thought of that.

Melanie Avalon:
I definitely know my answer for that one for sure.

Scott Emmens:
I'm writing that one down. So hold it for the show

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh man. I just, I love thinking of questions. I'll have to think, if I think of more, I will send them your way. Oh, oh, oh, maybe also I would want to know how has podcasting changed their social relations? Like are most of their friends podcasters or like are most of their friends now their guests? Because like, if I look at my life, the majority of my friends now are guests I've had on the show or fellow podcasters, which is kind of weird to think about.

Scott Emmens:
And that's kind of a unique small world. So it's interesting, once you get into that world, you start to know so many people in that world, it becomes kind of comfortable because you have so much in common and it's just a comfortable fun conversation.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, exactly. And it's really interesting, like how much you can... Something I love about podcasting is... Granted, people listening to podcasting might be doing other things and driving or multitasking, but podcasting itself, like the art of capturing a conversation, it's like the one time where you literally just live in the moment of that conversation, which is... We're so distracted in our world today. There's like so many things happening, but podcasting, you have to actually sit down and talk to another person and you can't really be... You can't be hardcore multitasking.

Scott Emmens:
I really like that because the people are so hectic today. Even phone calls are far and few between because people text so much. But when you sit down and do a podcast, you'll typically have a 15 to 20 minute pre -discussion for the podcast. Then you have a full discussion during the podcast and then potentially after the podcast. And like you said, during all of that, you're completely engaged with that person to get to know them, to really make sure you're engaged in the conversation so the listeners can follow. And so to your point, it's like a really engaging conversation on both sides. So it is very unique in that way and I think lends itself so great to making friendships and or acquaintances over the air because you're literally engaged and engrossed in that person's dialogue for an hour and a half or two hours.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And you're talking about their work, like something that's really, you know, important to them. So you're getting to know like what drives that person and their passion. And so yeah, I think that's another reason I think people really connect.

Scott Emmens:
And I love the long format of podcasts because it really allows for complete contextual conversation instead of the typical tiktok sound bites that we're getting or the instagram sound bite you get the complete context and nuance of a robust discussion so i love that long long time term you know frame up of the podcast you don't really get that in too many media so to me i love it in fact a lot of podcast if i see there under thirty minutes i'm probably not gonna listen to it because i enjoy. The hour hour and a half two hour podcast where you really get to get to know the guest and you know it's going to be a thorough discussion.

Melanie Avalon:
So true. You could ask people what has been their shortest and longest podcast as well. I've had some really long ones. Okay. So, so friends, definitely all the things to check out. So in the podcast world, the mind blown podcast, is it called just behind the mic or is it behind the mic podcast? What's the full title?

Scott Emmens:
Behind the Mic Wellness.

Melanie Avalon:
wellness. Okay, behind the mic wellness. Check out both of those. I can't wait for them both to be up and then to bring it all back to the beginning, spirulina. Yeah, I'm just friends. I'm so excited about this. Again, you can get the launch special 20% off, stock up now, avalonx.us. You don't want to miss that. And then stay tuned for all of the future supplements to come. And just again, I just want to express my gratitude to Scott, who's been such a key, key person behind. Because I know so many of you guys are, you know, really big fans of my Avalonx supplements. And I am as well because they're exactly what I could ever want them to be. And that's all because of Scott.

Scott Emmens:
I would love to take all the credit, but it's the entire MD Logic Health team. So I've got to give my team the props they deserve. Without them, I would be nothing. So it's truly a partnership and Melanie, I love working with you and partnering with you on these supplements because you take everything. So personally, you make sure everything is done to perfection. And there's nothing I love more than creating a wonderful, pure product with great partners. So thank you so much.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Well, thank you, Scott. And I will, I guess next time we'll be podcasting together will be for the Mindblown podcast.

Scott Emmens:
They cannot wait. And thank you so much for having me again. I think I'm my sixth time here at the I have podcast, Melanie. Appreciate it.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. You're one step closer to your honorary co -host. Almost there. All right. Have a good night.

Scott Emmens:
You too. Take care, Melanie.

Melanie Avalon:
Bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice, and no patient -doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by podcast doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme imposed by Leland Cox, and recomposed by Steve Saunders. See you next week!

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jun 23

Episode 375: Blood Glucose Control, Post Prandial Glucose Excursions, Eating Timing, CGMs, Fun Recipes For Electrolytes, Collagen, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

Study: Enhanced muscle activity during interrupted sitting improves glycemic control in overweight and obese men

Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

BUTCHERBOX: For a limited time go to butcherbox.com/ifpodcast and get chicken thighs, top sirloins, or salmon—for free in every order for a whole year! Plus, get $20 off your first order!

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NUTRISENSE: Get $50 Off A CGM subscription At nutrisense.io/ifpodcast With The Code IFPODCAST!

LMNT: Go to drinklmnt.com/ifpodcast to get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase!

Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?

DANGER COFFEE: Get 10% Off At melanieavalon.com/dangercoffee With The Code MELANIEAVALON!

Early Vs Late-Night Eating: Contradictions, Confusions, And Clarity

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 375 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode 375 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hello, everyone. How are you today, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I'm great, how are you?

Melanie Avalon:
I'm good. I'm looking at when this airs. So when this airs, hopefully my spirulina will be coming out soon next month, which is exciting. I've just been waiting, you know, a long time for that. Listeners can get on the email list at AvalonX .us slash email list. And then also my third podcast should have launched the Mindblown podcast. I'm really excited because I listened yesterday to the first episode because we got it back from the editors and it's just so fun. It's so exciting to have like a podcast. I love health stuff, but to like have a podcast about like completely different topics. I remember you said you were thinking sometime at some point you might have a podcast as well about other things. Yes. I think about it all the time. Well, I definitely, definitely support that. So listeners can check that out. It's the Mindblown podcast. One last, this is just like a random fun thing I did. I went and saw Legally Blonde, the musical. Do you like that musical? Do you know it? No, I don't. Did you like Legally Blonde, the movie? The musical is so, it's really good. I wore pink, which was crazy because I always wear black, but I had flashbacks because I don't know if you might've seen this on Instagram, but it reminded me because remember how in that movie Elle Woods has like her entrance essay or her like her entrance video for Harvard. She submits this video to get into Harvard and it's like, you know, it's all about like blonde and she's like a swarthy girl and it's like over the top and then she gets into Harvard. My entrance, when I submitted for the USC film school, which at the time they told us it had a lower acceptance rate than Harvard. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. I'm only saying that to like clarify this story and how it relates to Legally Blonde. So in my admission essay, I literally made the first sentence. I said something about how like how important good hair days are to females and then I said I would give up all my good hair days for admission to the USC School of Cinematic Arts and it worked. I got in because I knew that they had a really low, they were heavily skewed towards males for that program. So I was like, I'm gonna play up my female -ness. I don't know if that would fly today, but.

Vanessa Spina:
You're like the Elle Woods of innocent fasting, I know.

Melanie Avalon:
I know. Oh, man. I do not miss the days of college admission essays. Do you remember those days? Mm -hmm. I do. Ooh, crazy. Do you still have dreams that you, like, are in college? Like, nightmares?

Vanessa Spina:
I did when I was going to university, I would have nightmares a lot because growing up, I went to so many different schools and it was always very stressful to have to leave all my established friend groups and then start over fresh and be the new kid. And sometimes that was a good thing, sometimes it wasn't. In my last year of high school, I kept having this repeated dream about going to university and being the new kid but I didn't realize everyone's a new kid so it's way easier when you're all new. And I made friends right away and I had an amazing time at university but yeah, I remember having so many nightmares about it.

Melanie Avalon:
Were you in a different like click or friend group at all the different times that you changed? I mean, I don't know it was new people, but like type of group of people.

Vanessa Spina:
sometimes. Yeah, it's just the culture was so different in each school too. But yeah, I mean, I, I had such a great time when I went to school. I am, especially university was amazing. Like high school was good and bad, but university was incredible. I had so much fun. Did you have a good experience?

Melanie Avalon:
I did I was actually reflecting on this yesterday with my family because we were watching do you remember that? I don't know if you remember this the Angela Johnson YouTube short it was like one of the first like YouTube videos that really went viral It's that manicure skit about getting a manicure at the nail salon. Okay, I'll just send it to you. It's like It's amazing. We were revisiting it and rewatching it but I remember I saw her live because at USC there's this like there's the quad which is The I don't know. It's where they it's a quad like a university quad Yeah, okay. Okay. I feel like all schools have like the quad. Okay. I just remember I was like a freshman my dorm actually like looked over the quad and I was like, do they think we're Like we must be constantly stimulated because every single day there was like something happening Like really big deal on that quad So like it'd be like things like that like bringing in famous people and having like shows one day I woke up and there was so this was in LA There was skiing on the quad. They brought in like a slope Yeah, like was and you could ski down it. I was like what is happening? So like I Remember like college was like this crazy experience of Like you said, it's all new people You get to just make all these decisions about you know Your classes and when your classes are and you're like And there's all this fun stuff to do and then like freshman year you like sign up for all the things You're like i'm gonna do all the things and then you don't end up doing all the things But yeah, like I signed up for fencing and ballroom dancing and none of that panned out but Oh, well So flashback years anything new in your world?

Vanessa Spina:
I've been feeling like a kid on Christmas morning every day because, as I told you, I started a new CGM, and that has been so much fun because I'm kind of doing it, I think, in a way that is maybe unique to how a lot of people use it, because I think a lot of people are using it to maybe cut certain carbs out of their life. And I'm doing the opposite. I'm using it to see which carbs I can tolerate well and add back in, and it's been really, really fun to use it. And when I did it before, I was carnivore, and I shared how my CGM was basically just a flat line. It was not interesting at all. I just kept checking it, and then I was like, it's got to be wrong, and then I would double check with a finger prick, and it was just boring to watch. But now that I'm in a whole different phase of my life, I'm doing optimal protein. I've been calling it lately hyperprotein. Hyperprotein, we were talking about different, needing a good name.

Melanie Avalon:
I was just saying that we were talking about how we needed a name for it, hyperprotein.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, because that really is the focus is the lean protein. And in my opinion, adding, you know, your mix of fuel, because protein is the building block macro, your mix of fuel macros, carbs or fat, it's all up to you. You know, at the end of the day, it's your energy macros. But I do think it's better to choose lower glycemic ones with high fiber, if you're going carb route, you know, and to choose healthier fats, obviously, but it's so much fun at this stage in my life to be testing all kinds of different things. And it's kind of summertime. So we've been doing all this fun stuff. So I've been able to test fun things like glasses of Prosecco, seeing what that does to me. And then I told you, I tried half a banana, which I haven't had in years. And then I made some homemade hummus. Like I'm testing all these things. And so far, everything that I thought was going to happen is not happening. Like the things that I was assuming were spiking my blood sugar all the time have not been. Oh, wow. Yeah, at all, which is crazy. It's just been so incredibly insightful. So I'm really excited to, you know, sort of dedicate this episode to to cgms, especially because I know you know so much about using them. I'm kind of a newbie. So you know, we can kind of go through it for other people who are newer to it. And maybe it'll answer some questions that people have about using it. But it feels I feel like a kid on Christmas every day, this is I keep telling Luca, like mommy has a new toy. And he loves taking my phone and scanning the sensor, you know, because it makes the phone vibrate. She's like, I want to do it. I want to do it. But it's it really feels like, like a fun toy. But it is so incredibly insightful. So that's the most exciting thing going on. I have been working on launching tone collagen, which should be out and around now or around this time. And we are going to be doing an exclusive launch discount on it. So I do want to mention that is something I've been working on and really, really excited about too. That's pretty much every

Melanie Avalon:
everything that's new in my life. Oh my goodness. Okay. So many things. Okay. So I want to clarify. I want to super, super clarify for listeners, because I'm going to ask you some questions about your CGM experience. So everybody is so individual. And so if Vanessa says that she, you know, certain things spiked her blood sugar, it's like an example of how you just don't know, like people, like people can react so differently to different foods. And that's why I think the CGM is so important because it actually shows you how you are reacting and like, and what works for your body. So I'm dying to know. So what were some things that you thought were spiking your blood sugar that weren't and vice versa?

Vanessa Spina:
So I just assumed that every day my high protein meals were raising my blood glucose at least 20 or 30 points. And they're not. They're just not like it's barely like I've been between this range of like low 60s, upper 70s, the highest I was going for most I've been on it for a week now. So it's not that much data. We can circle back in like three more weeks. I'll have like two months worth of data to talk about. This is just sort of the initial things that have been happening. So my blood glucose is still pretty flat, even though I'm not doing carnivore anymore. And I just assumed that carnivore was keeping it so flat. But I really think it's because my insulin sensitivity is so high as we were talking about on the last episode. So working hard to bring your insulin down can really make a difference. And I think that's what I'm seeing is it's well, first of all, my meals are high protein. And so they are very slowly broken down. And that explains a little bit of that like flat line response. But I just assumed that when I was having a huge high protein meal that it was at least going up and doing a small spike. Because everybody tells you things like whey protein, spikes your blood glucose, caffeine, which is another one I'll talk about, but all these things we assume spike our blood glucose. And we just believe it because other people tell us that or people that we respect tell us that. And like you said, we assume because it spiked their blood glucose that it'll do that for us too. Or because it spiked the blood glucose of a group of people in a study that it'll do that for us too. But my blood glucose has been so stable. I mean, it barely goes up after my meals. A big thing that I noted is that most of the days I've been wearing the CGM, I am pretty active. So I'm moving my body around most of the day. I'm averaging like somewhere between 10 to 12 ,000 steps in the day, which is not crazy, but it's not sitting around all day. I'm just a busy, active person. And most of those days I'm also doing maybe like five out of seven of those days. I'm doing a around 45 minute to an hour workout of resistance training. Not a hardcore. I'm not one of those people who's at a gym doing like these crazy squats and you know, benching like super heavy weights. I'm not my workouts are not like that, but you know, I'm active and I'm doing a weights workout, resistance training workout. And on those days, which is most of the time, it's amazing. The response to the meal that I usually have after my workout, it's, it barely moves. So I was shocked. I really thought that, you know, having a huge protein meal, having dessert for me, which is like my tone protein with some plain yogurt, I assumed that was doing another blood glucose spike. And then I have a shake with tone protein with berries, just kind of like a second meal in my eating window. And then I have protein puddings, usually a couple of them. And I've also been testing lately, these chalk, zero marshmallows, and I assumed that those were doing things, nothing, nothing was moving on those days, especially like I said, because I'm really active. So that was a huge insight is that I track my activity, I'm a very active person. And that just that combined with having a low insulin, it gives you incredible recovery. So all my meals are like 100% score in terms of recovery and all the different measurements that they do, which is just really cool to see a couple other things that were really interesting. I had a couple days where I wasn't as active. And I noticed, for example, because we went away for this weekend, the days that we were in the car, doing mostly driving, there was a more moderate minimal amount of activity on those days. And that's when I had more of a response to the meals. but still nothing crazy, nothing like 30, 40 point spike. Like most of my meals, I'd say 20 point spike at the height. But because again, they're high protein, if you eat high protein meals, you probably notice, I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, but for a lot of people, the protein is digested over four to five hours. So it just gives you this very steady blood sugar. I also was assuming that throughout the night, I was having big spikes, nothing. It's like, I just stay in this like 20 point range, low sixties up to 79 every day. So then when we were away this weekend, I got to test some fun things. I did test coffee, assumed that was spiking me, nope. It goes up by like five to 10 points. And I have a huge coffee in the morning. I make a latte like with unsweetened almond milk. And I know that that's not clean fasting, but right now it's what I'm doing and it's working fine for me. But I thought that that was spiking me for sure. And it isn't at all. So on the weekend, I got to test some, a little bit more unusual things. And I'm really curious as to your response on one of them. So I did have one crazy spike that I was like, oh my gosh, that must be a mistake because I've never seen one before. On Sunday morning, we were having brunch with our friends and the place we were at didn't have any like almond milk. They only had coconut milk. And so I assumed it was just the coconut milk that we have here, which is just plain coconut milk, no sugar added. So I had two coconut milk lattes and with my regular breakfast, which was an eggs bunny. And I had like a 60 point spike. Like it went from. Wow. Yeah, my blood sugar was like 60 something. And it went up to like 120. And then it came crashing back down. Surprisingly, it didn't go below 60. So you would think that it would have like a bad rebound effect and go below my starting level, but it just went back to where I was at. So at least that was okay. And the Nutrisense, I'm using the new Nutrisense CGM, of course, cause it's the best and their app. And it still gave me an okay score for that, but it wasn't great. And I realized that they were using this special like barista coconut milk, which was full of sugar. So for someone who never eats sugar, if you do suddenly have it, your body is going to react poorly to it. Because if I had been eating sugar on a regular basis or even eating high carb for a few days before that, it wouldn't have had such a high spike, but because my body never sees sugar, like it hasn't had sugar for years and years and years. It was like, whoa. It was like I did the oral glucose tolerance test or something. Like it was just a huge response. So I went and checked what they were serving after. And it was one of those, you know, cartons, the barista with like a, you know, usual amount of sugar, but very unusual for me. So that was why it spiked. And then I kept thinking throughout the day, what if it was the eggs Benedict? What if it was like the high fat, you know, because you hear that also that other side of the coin where fat can spike you. So the next day we went back to the same place and I had the same breakfast.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh wow, without the coffee, without the coconut.

Vanessa Spina:
Without the coconut milk, I just had an element, chocolate with some regular milk. Actually, I had a whole milk that's really popular here. So they did have whole milk and I had that and no spike at all. So that was also a cool insight because I also assumed that regular milk would spike my blood glucose, but it didn't at all. And everything else was the same, in terms of activity levels and what I was doing. So it was definitely the coconut milk. And it wasn't a mistake, which is, because you can see in the app, you can see your blood glucose going measurements every 10 minutes, right? Even if you don't scan it, it's recording it. So you can go back and see, it wasn't just like an erroneous measurement. It was, that's what it was. So, because it tracks all the way up to that like 120, which I hit and then back down. So that was really interesting. And then the last one is the one I wanted to get some of your insight on. So a few times in the past two weeks, we've had events. So this weekend we had, we were away with friends. So a few opportunities where I was drinking Prosecco. And I always just assumed that Prosecco was spiking my blood glucose when I was having it. And it not only didn't, but all three of the times, a couple of the times I had two or three glasses, it made it go low, like way lower, like at one point on Sunday. So we had had breakfast early in the morning. We'd been walking around pretty actively all day. I had a glass of Prosecco and my blood sugar went down to like 50 something. And it was the same thing every time I had Prosecco. And I was like, I don't think it's actually that sugary, but definitely has alcohol in it. So I'm sure you know a lot about that, or at least you have your own experience in it. But yeah, that's been my experience so far. And it's been so insightful. I like you think everyone in the world should wear a CGM for at least a month. Cause like even a couple of weeks, I feel like I'm going to be wearing one for at least a couple months here to really get some good data. But also I'm very excited to see that all the work I've done to make my muscles and body so insulin sensitive means I can probably be eating way more carb than I do and be totally fine blood glucose wise because I'm so active and insulin sensitive. So that I think it's also something great for people to be able to assess on the other side of, okay, you've done great work now. Let's see what works well for your body by adding it back in and based on your lifestyle, what you can manage. And so it kind of gives you permission to go out and try a bunch of foods and test things and maybe incorporate some things that could be giving you some great phytonutrients, great fiber, but you were cutting out just cause you were assuming that they were spiking you like I was.

Melanie Avalon:
I love this so much. What did you find with the banana out of curiosity? It really didn't do my

Vanessa Spina:
at all. And same for the Chalk Zero marshmallows, except for yesterday. They did raise my blood glucose yesterday by about 15 points. And I think it's because we were in the car all day. And so I wasn't active. So there are definitely foods, even with my insulin sensitivity. And I'm not saying that that's bad, like 15 points is fine. What matters is that you recover from it, right? And that you don't go too high, you don't want too much variability. And you want to be able to recover from it. But it just goes to show how important activity is. Because if you are really sedentary, that's not a normal day for me being in a car for three hours driving, coming back from, you know, road trip. But I did do a bunch of body weight squats after did you see that new study about the body weight squats? No, what did it find? So I'm going to do it. I'm doing an episode on it this week on my podcast. But it's about how they did this study with a group of men where they were comparing blood glucose control after a meal with doing a 30 minute walk, or 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes. And the body weight squats fared better than the 30 minute walk, which for someone like me is like, heck yes, because I don't have time to go for a 30 minute walk after dinner. I have like, at this season in my life, but I definitely have time for 10 body weight squats. So I did that every 45 minutes. Like I think I did three sets before bed. And it definitely made me feel better about having, you know, more sedentary days.

Melanie Avalon:
That's a really great, like everybody should implement that. I'm going to start implementing that.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, everyone. And I feel like if you really do them mindfully and you really like, you can feel, you're really using your quads, you're really using your glutes, like you're really getting into it. Like I would do each one very intentionally, not just like kind of flippantly, but I think that could be something that could help so many people around the world to improve their blood glucose sensitivity because not everyone has time to go for a 30 minute walk after all of their meals, right? So yeah, it's absolutely massive.

Melanie Avalon:
That is amazing. I'm going to have to get that study from you for the show notes. Okay, so yes, thoughts. And one thing about, so the Chalk Zero marshmallows, I think I'd actually been looking at those recently on Amazon. So do they have any carbs? They do? They do, okay.

Vanessa Spina:
or something I had never heard before which is resistant dextrin which is like a corn I think it's corn sourced and then it's in a lot of like confectionary type foods and I don't it's not something that's in my diet regularly but I when we were in the US I wanted Luca to try roasting marshmallows so I found them online and then I really liked them so I brought a big pack back with us and then I kind of forgot about them and then at night I was like adding because there are mini marshmallows just adding them to an element chocolate or element chocolate caramel I cook it up with I heat it up with some unsweetened almond milk and then put some marshmallows on top and it's it's amazing so I was really curious what they what they did and totally fine on an active day but yeah one serving definitely has carbs in it it has some carbs in it so anywhere from like 10 to 20 grams

Melanie Avalon:
I really want to try, I haven't had foods like this in a while, but there have been times when I would do low carb and I would have low carb alternatives. So low sugar, low carb cake mixes or things like that. And eating them would taste so sweet. They would usually be sweetened with things like Stevia and Elulose and things like that. I want to try that while wearing a CGM and see what happens. Just that experience of having something that tastes so sweet that I know actually doesn't have sugar. I want to see what that would do to my blood sugar levels.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it hasn't been and right now, so I had some about an hour ago and my blood glucose right now is 69, so it did nothing, but today I did do a weights workout this afternoon, but otherwise I didn't do like 10 ,000 steps or anything. So most of the days it has had no effect at all.

Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy that you're you're resting ones are, you know, in the 60s like that. I do want to also clarify for listeners because some listeners might not have any idea about what is, you know, ranges to look for. So like 60s is very low.

Vanessa Spina:
It's amazing. It's definitely because I'm a keto person, remember that, yeah. For the first time, I don't eat barely any carbs at all.

Melanie Avalon:
That's incredible. The alcohol piece, so I actually, I find that alcohol lowers my blood sugar and I think that's pretty consistent. So there's a lot of studies on wine and like blood sugar control and diabetes and stuff and it tends to correlate favorably, especially red wine to glycemic control. And one of the mechanisms might be that alcohol, so the main reason people's blood sugar is elevated is actually from the liver. Like that's the number one reason. It's not, I mean, it is the food you ate because it's the food going to the liver and then the liver releasing it. But the primary reason for high resting blood sugar levels is the liver creating glucose essentially and releasing it into the bloodstream, either releasing stored forms or creating its own. And so alcohol actually turns that off. Yeah, because the liver starts breaking down the alcohol instead. I thought it was related to the alcohol. Okay.

Vanessa Spina:
That's a great explanation.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you. Of course, a lot of people might be having sugary alcoholic drinks and then you're kind of canceling each other out, but if you're having dry wine, just straight alcoholic vodka or liquors without sugar, you're probably going to see a drop in your blood sugar levels. And I'm pretty sure I can look for some studies, but I'm pretty sure there are studies on having wine with meals and things like that and how it has a beneficial effect. So, I'm so excited that you got to try this and have this experience and I agree, like you said, I just feel like if everybody in the world did this just once, you know, like at least two weeks, ideally a month, I just think it would be a game changer in our metabolic health because you would like finally realize what is actually happening in your body when you fast, when you eat, when you exercise, and it's so interesting. I remember I was scared to wear one because I eat such a high carb, comma, fruit, high carbs from fruit diet. And like we're talking, I eat like pounds of fruit every night. I was really worried that that was just doing crazy things to my blood sugar levels and it's not. I mean, it's not like your results. It definitely does spike a lot higher, but it's all things I feel comfortable with. So it's so eye opening. It's also really, really interesting to test my berberine using a CGM. Do you have my berberine? Although, you know what? I mean, yours are so low. It's like you wouldn't even want to take it. But that I see like a huge, huge beneficial effect on my blood sugar levels as well.

Vanessa Spina:
What's your experience with using it?

Melanie Avalon:
It's basically what I, now what I expect to know, and I don't really, I haven't really like tested a lot of things, but basically the two things I test is either my normal diet of like, high protein, high fruit, low fat, or like the low carb, slightly higher fat, but still, still relatively low fat, still high protein though approach. And when I do that, I have significantly lower blood sugar levels than if I'm having the carbs, like the carb version, but I don't, so my spikes are probably, I'm usually, during the day, like the 80s, 90s, depending on when it is. I think that's like, that's just considered good, like great. I know if I were to do low carb or carnivore, it would be lower. I prefer my, the version of the diet that I'm in right now, that's interesting. It's kind of like, I don't know if it's a trade off per se, but I have a better cholesterol panel when I do the, and I know cholesterol panels are very debated, but I have much lower cholesterol levels, like significantly when I do the high carb, low fat, high protein approach, compared to the low carb, higher fat approach. So mine will spike, like typically with, and we're talking, this is like a massive, I eat so much fruit at night. I don't think people probably really grasp how much fruit I eat, it's a lot. So it'll usually spike up to the 120s, sometimes in the 130s, but it always comes back down by the morning. I also find doing my cryotherapy session, after I do that, it really starts going down. So basically like when I wake up is when it's the highest for the day, and by the highest, I don't mean like after eating, but the highest in the fasted state, and then it progressively goes down during the day, especially after that cryo session, which is interesting. I will say though, if you wear a CGM in the cryotherapy machine, you might get a false flag reading because it can make it, the cold can make the sensor freak out a little bit and it spikes, but it's the sensor. So yeah, and I'll go ahead and put out the link up out there for listeners. So they can get a Nutrisense CGM, go to nutrisense.com/Ifpodcast, and use the coupon code Ifpodcast that will get you $50 off a Nutrisense. I think they're like subscriptions. So I'm out of CGMs right now, they're gonna send us some new ones and I really wanna wear one. It's been a while since I worn one.

Vanessa Spina:
That was the last time you did it.

Melanie Avalon:
A few months ago, I think. OK, so pretty recent. Yeah, I'm trying to remember when. It was a few months ago. I want to do it now that I've been doing more low -carb days every week just to see. Oh, you can see the only days thing. Yeah, I mean, I still have the cucumbers and stuff, but I'm really curious doing those a few days a week. I'd like to see if that has a carryover effect to the other days. That's what I'm most interested in, I think. So what happens on the actual day, but then in general, would my levels be better?

Vanessa Spina:
I want to test so many things, like a protein spraying like modified fasting day would be fun to test. There's just so many things. I was really curious about the hummus, like I made homemade hummus. I sometimes have, usually like when we go to friends homes for parties and things, there's always like a hummus tray with cut up vegetables and carrots, peppers. Like I just really didn't eat that stuff for years. And I decided, you know, to try it, test it. And then I tested it and then I made it a few times with myself at home and nothing, like just barely any reaction at all. And again, those are on average days which are active. So for me, the biggest takeaway has been how important the activity is. And it's, you know, sometimes people think of it as like eating after a meal, but it's also before. If you're just having an active day in general, doesn't have to be every day, you know, but you're moving your body around. You're doing things, you know, that's what really, you know, gives you great glucose control, I think throughout the day. And then those 10 body weight squats every 45 minutes.

Melanie Avalon:
I know I'm gonna start doing that. Yeah, after I saw you know that

Vanessa Spina:
that, you know, we weren't that active yesterday. I was doing them in the kitchen and Luca's like, why are you doing that? I was like, oh, it's good for my body. And so he started doing them with me. Oh, cute. That's so cute. I was like, how many can you do? And then we were counting and, you know, doing them together. And, you know, and then we had our algae together, we had our spirulina together, I think I told you he calls it the medicine.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes, I love it.

Vanessa Spina:
that. And yeah, I was like, you know, he's doing squats and takes your Alina with me. Like, I felt like those are a couple of wins. So it's really exciting. And I think for anyone out there who's interested in learning about their bodies and their health, you know, what's amazing with the Nutrisense app is you also get a nutritionist who do video calls with you. You not only can score all your meals and sort of get this score out of 100, but there's ongoing support with a nutritionist who will answer any questions that you have as well. So I think they really provide great value with that.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that was one of the things I really loved because I tried a lot of different CGM platforms and their support was really amazing and I'm I did it with a friend as well and she said the same thing like she loves chatting with them and it's it's just really, really helpful. I'm curious did Luca like roasting marshmallows?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he really liked it. He liked it a little too much. No, I'm kidding. No, it's because I want the marshmallows. Like I only have a limited amount because I brought these back from the US. You know, I'm happy to share and give him some and he wants like all of them. So I'm like, Luca, this is a treat for mommy. You have lots of treats and snacks. This is mommy's and you know, I can only get it by flying to the US. Bring it back here. So unfortunately, I don't have anything like that over here. But yeah, when it's done, it'll be done. And, and that's fine. I'll have it next time I go back. But it's a nice little, it's a fun treat. But yeah, he loves marshmallows.

Melanie Avalon:
Have you ever made homemade mar-

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't like I know it's I've heard people make it all the time and it's not that hard Maybe I should make some you could do it with Luca. Yeah, he then then he could have as many as you want

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, that'd be so... Have I, you said? I have not. I think I've tried to make... I think I did try once. I feel like it didn't work out that well. I might revisit that. I'm pretty sure I tried to make it, yeah, with... That's when I was ordering that... What was it, Great Lakes or whatever? That ever? That gelatin?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I should make a recipe. My new college for marshmallows and, and I'll be making them. And, and that will be.

Melanie Avalon:
Make that your email grab on your website like, you know, sign up here to get my the college and marshmallow recipe. Yes, I'm gonna do that. Oh my goodness, I'm having so many flashbacks. I was the reason I was looking at the Chalk Zero marshmallows. I was randomly craving marshmallows the other day. Sorry, you were craving them? And I was like, I want to order some marshmallows. Did you try the Chalk Zero ones? No, I need to order some. I was looking at all the different brands because there's all these all these different brands on Amazon that are, you know, sugar free marshmallows.

Vanessa Spina:
These ones taste exactly like regular ones.

Melanie Avalon:
really there's no difference oh okay i want to i want to order some and they melt like normal marshmallows and everything exactly the same okay i remember um last time i had a colonoscopy lovely i know i've had way too many colonoscopies last time i had one i was looking at what you could you know have before and you actually can make jello because you could have clear jello or like certain colors of jello but not other colors and i remember i was like i'm gonna make i was like i'm gonna make this a whole thing i'm gonna make and i ordered i ordered everything like i ordered like the like little gummy bear molds molds yeah like gummy bear molds and like this watermelon flavor and like gelatin and then when it came time to do it i was like this is i'm not complicated

Vanessa Spina:
I make them with Luca, the bears. We have like, gummy bears and he's like, I want to make the bears. So make chocolate ones or Oh, chocolate jello? No, just like, like, I'll make a keto chocolate, but I'll use the teddy bear molds. Oh, okay. Yeah. But it's great to make, you know, collagen gummies to

Melanie Avalon:
And have you made gummies or no? Yeah.

Vanessa Spina:
I've made, I've made those a bunch of times because it's a fun, they're healthy, low sugar. I just put Stevia in them and then it's a great treat for him and for me, but it's a great, like it's a candy for him. It looks like a candy. And then the other thing we made the other day, which was really fun was I made popsicles of element. Oh, how are those? And they're really fun because they got these cool like ice pop molds. They have different shapes, like a penguin and a whale and all this stuff. So like on a hot day, we've been making those in the morning. And I did with the watermelon element, I put the recipe on my reels and Luca helped me make them. And it was really fun. And it was great. We actually put frozen raspberries like at the bottom of the popsicles and then filled it with the raspberry element and water. And so they were like these fruit, like fruity popsicles with raspberries inside them and the element. So I called them like the hydrating popsicles so you can get hydrated while you're having delicious element and Luca loves those. So we'll probably be having a bunch this weekend too. And it's great because they're not messy, you know, like with kids, just like everything is melting, but it's really just water that's melting. So it's fine.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. For listeners, if they'd like to try element, they can go to drink L M N T dot com slash Ifpodcast. They make amazing electrolyte supplement, well packets. And then now they have sparkling. Have you, have you seen the sparkling drinks they have?

Vanessa Spina:
I haven't gotten to try them yet because I don't think they can ship them here, but I'm loving, I love the idea. I was really surprised actually when I saw it.

Melanie Avalon:
kind of like a soda, you know, because it's like a sparkling drink, but it's the element and they have a watermelon. I haven't tried it yet. I have it here. I haven't tried them. But yeah, so that's, that's super exciting. I have another thought about that. Oh, I'm curious, since you were like international growing up, did you have the experience of the ice cream truck man?

Vanessa Spina:
was that a thing oh yeah I mean not in China but when we were in Canada in the summer yes

Melanie Avalon:
Ice cream truck yeah like hearing this I just remember like the moment when you're like a kid you hear the sound and it's like oh no am I gonna make it in time and you're like running and then like if you miss you have to like run after them.

Vanessa Spina:
Eddie Murphy has a great fit on that ice cream ice cream that is coming and then he like you know all the kids run to get money and

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, that's why I was thinking my head I was in my head. I was like, wait a minute. Why did it take so long? Oh, right. You have to go get the money. Yes. There's a lot you have to accomplish

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, he does this like dance that the kids do once they get their ice creamed, like I got my ice cream and got my ice cream, it's a really good, it's a really good.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so funny. I like feel the cortisol spike though of like, it's like the ultimate moment of like, this must be accomplished really fast and like go. Did they steal noodles? Yeah. Yeah. I see them around and I get flashbacks. Oh, that's fun. So I remember I would always get the cartoon. My favorite was the Bugs Bunny with the gumball eyes.

Vanessa Spina:
I like the rocket one that's like red, white.

Melanie Avalon:
in blue. Oh, man, good times. There was something about those. Did they have the cartoon, the cartoon ice cream ones that you're in Canada? I think so. There was something about that texture that was just so unique. Mm hmm. Like what is it? I don't even know. It's amazing. It probably was an indexron. Probably. Oh, man.

Vanessa Spina:
When I was reading up about it last night, it said it's used in a lot of like confectionary types of foods.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, yeah. It's kind of like the rumor that like there are some things that like don't melt like McDonald's ice cream or something. It takes a really long time to melt. Yes. So in any case, CGMs. I highly, highly recommend them for, you know, finding the foods that work for you and really seeing, you know, how your fast affects you. And I'm glad that you talked so much about the role that physical activity plays, because I really think that's really underappreciated for the effects that it has on our blood sugar levels. Like I just think it is so, so important and has a huge impact. And it's something that's really hard to understand unless you're seeing it in real time, you know, on a continuous glucose monitor.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I agree and I was not expecting that to be my main takeaway, you know what I mean?

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Do you experience the dawn effect at all?

Vanessa Spina:
No, I was going to ask you about that because I know you said that you did that you do and I was expecting it. I was expecting there to be some kind of rise, but most nights or mornings, like it's pretty steady throughout the night, like pretty much the same range as during the day, but a little lower because I'm not moving or being active. And then it's just a very gradual rise throughout the morning and then I have coffee and it goes up like five points, maybe 10 points, but no.

Melanie Avalon:
nothing big. Now I really want to test. I want to see if I either don't or if I get a blunted effect when I do my mostly meat days.

Vanessa Spina:
I think I need more data, so I want to touch back on that, like circle back on that, because I know there's a few days of calibration, you know, the CGM is kind of, I want more data before I say like, really what's been going on, but that's so far, I just haven't really seen much, much of one, but I know, yeah, there's so much interpersonal variability when it comes to that.

Melanie Avalon:
So the Dawn Effect, it's basically this quote, natural rise in blood sugar that people will often see in the early hours of the morning. And it's basically a circadian based dumping of the liver, of blood sugar into the system and people will see a spike even though they didn't eat anything. And I definitely do see that spike and also probably involves cortisol as well, I think. So again, to listeners, they can go to nutrisense.com/ifpodcast and use the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. Okay, anything else about the CGM? I think we covered it. Awesome. Yeah, I thought we could leave because there was two more comments. Last week, I was reading people's experiences about the different types of intermittent fasting that they practice and we had two more that I hadn't read. So I was just going to read those really quickly. So I don't think we actually like give our thoughts on all the different answers. But if listeners would like to go back to last week, they can hear all these different approaches that people are trying with intermittent fasting. Two last ones we had. One was from Jen. She said, I'm in the process of adjusting mine now. My husband and I work different schedules and are not always hungry at the same time. But I struggle with not having my coffee upon waking, not because I need it, because I enjoy it. It's a pure want. Ideally, I can overcome this strong desire and hold out because I'd like to transition to an eating window of 1 to 7 p .m. How much coffee do you drink, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
day. So I just have one in the morning usually a latte. I make two shots of espresso. It's like around 150 milligrams and I put a couple of cups of unsweetened almond milk in it. And that's it usually for the day unless it's like the weekend and I go for brunch with friends and then I usually have a couple in the morning.

Melanie Avalon:
And you said you did not see an effect, right, on your blood sugar from the coffee?

Vanessa Spina:
There is one, but it's about, I would say like five to 10 points. It's not, I wouldn't consider that a spike. I would just consider that like a normal response.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, that's so interesting.

Vanessa Spina:
and it's very stable after.

Melanie Avalon:
That's yeah, that's so I wonder if man I feel like if I were to have coffee Because I just have a I just have a little tiny sip every morning of my danger coffee, which is my favorite You can go to Melanie Avalon comm slash danger and use the coupon code Melanie Avalon to get a discount on that If I were to have like an actual cup of coffee, I bet my I'd be so curious, but I bet my blood sugar would probably Shoot way high I think

Vanessa Spina:
One way for you to test and for us to see because there are so many things that I thought I just assumed were spiking me that have not been and I love how we had that one episode we did just on coffee and we talked about all the research showing that it actually is great for you in the morning, great for cortisol. I love that episode but I love to hear what happens when you test it.

Melanie Avalon:
It's funny. I feel like I'll research whenever I research coffee. It's the opposite of most people So like a lot of people are like trying to wean off coffee. I Like I said, I just have a few steps every morning. But when I research coffee, I'm like, man, I maybe I should be more Maybe I should be drinking more coffee. It just seems like it does have so many health benefits Pretty consistently if you're not, you know going crazy with it The reason I love danger coffee is it it's Dave Asprey's new ish coffee after bulletproof And it's remineralized and it's mold free and it tastes just so delicious. I just love it I love giving it as gifts as well But yeah The reason I I would be really curious like you said to test the reason I feel like it would Jump really high is I just feel like it would give me such an adrenaline boost and probably a cortisol spike and I just Feel like my liver would dump all this, you know put out this glucose But who knows it would be a hard experiment to do because if I were to have a huge I don't know how I don't know how I would sleep that night if I had like a huge Amount it's so very interesting. Is that why you only have a sip? Yeah, I think it's because historically, you know, I struggled a lot with insomnia and sleep issues and always felt like I would be on the coffee caffeine roller coaster and When I cut it out completely it's like oh I actually don't I actually don't Need it, but I love having like it feels just like a little like Ritual and a hermetic stress in a way like just having this, you know a few sips in the morning I really like having it. It wasn't the case of where like with wine where I cut that out completely I was like, no, I I definitely feel better having like my nightly wine. But with coffee, I was like, oh I I don't I Don't see myself needing that much more but and then the nice thing is you have it in your back pocket so when you're not drinking coffee regularly if you ever do have a day where you have to We're completely sleep deprived and you need energy all you have to do is like have a cup of coffee and you're like you can like climb Mount Everest, so It's nice to like have it in your back pocket My only recent memory of doing that was when I got up early for the Taylor Swift tickets and then Had to be awake for six hours and the Ticketmaster queue coffee was helpful for that One more comment for the fasting. So Nina said I was doing intermittent fasting but then I read some info about skipping breakfast being bad for you, so now I just eat whenever and Fast for three days every month I've done seven days once and a seven -day juice fast prior to that not sure if it's doing anything But I definitely feel more energy and focus during a fast and my blood sugar and a1c are always good Trying to increase white blood cells and improve immunity without success so far Okay, so this comment So basically Nina's experience was she was doing intermittent fasting Then she read skipping breakfast was bad So she stopped fasting, but she does fast for three days I feel like this is an example where It's something there's this idea out there that you know skipping breakfast is bad and I I just feel like it's and we've talked about it a lot in previous shows, but I feel like it's based on a lot of misleading information and Maybe in an ideal world if you were completely controlled maybe eating Earlier in the day would be better than eating later in the day, but when you look at the overall Like lifestyle and like what is the fasting habit that you can stick to and if you enjoy skipping breakfast I feel like a lot of that data and again, we've talked about it in prior episodes So maybe we can put links to it, but I think it's very misleading. It is okay to skip breakfast I think I just get sad hearing people who like so it's not like she um, you know, it's not like she just changed her fasting window She just stopped fasting because she heard that Although she does fast for three days every month. Yeah. Do you have thoughts about that Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
So I definitely think that this is a belief that is circulating right now because there have been a lot of people talking about leptin and leptin resistance. So if someone is having issues with their leptin, leptin levels being too high, just like with insulin resistance, your insulin levels are too high, then having breakfast within an hour of waking a high protein breakfast can be really helpful for that. But if you don't have leptin resistance, then it's not an issue. So if you want to check, you can have your leptin tested. The optimal range for leptin is between five to 10. So if your leptin is really, really high, it could be an indicator if you're way out of range on that, that your brain is not receiving the leptin signal, which is giving you symptoms like you're always hungry. If you're not getting that signal that you've consumed food, leptin is released after you consume food to basically signal to stop eating. And some people develop a resistance to that signal. So this is only for people who have leptin resistance. For everyone else, it's not necessary for any other kind of benefit. I think there are some benefits to eating earlier, like you said, but there's also benefits to skipping breakfast. I think they kind of even out in the end, it just comes down to what you prefer and what suits you best. Like most days I skip breakfast, but like this weekend, we're away with friends. We were all having, you know, Mother's Day branch and stuff together. Like I definitely had breakfast, fully enjoyed it. Felt great all day, you know, but most of the time I don't have time to make breakfast in it for myself. It works better. So it really comes under personal preference. And if you don't have a leptin issue, I don't think you should be concerned with that. So I think it is going around a lot right now because it has to do with circadian health. It's known as a zeitgeiber, you know, you're helping your body's peripheral clocks and organ clocks, you know, sync up with the light. But you can also do that by getting natural light on your body, getting morning light on your body, going for a walk outside in the morning or doing some grounding, or even just stepping outside for a little bit, getting some morning light that initiates a lot of those hormonal cascades. And it's an even more powerful signaler or zeitgeiber than food is. So I don't think anyone should be concerned about skipping breakfast. And even Dr. Don Lehman, who I constantly invoke, he skips breakfast, he has like a mid -morning meal. So like around, I think he says he has his first meal around 10 or 11. He considers, you know, first meal of the day is your break fast. It doesn't matter.

Melanie Avalon:
if you have it earlier or later. I could not agree more. Yeah, and I think just so many studies, like looking at that word break fast, like you said, a lot of the studies don't take into account, especially studies that are looking at later eating versus earlier eating, they're not looking at it in a fasting pattern. So they're not taking into account that, yes, for most people, if you've been eating throughout the day, of course you're gonna have poor glycemic control later in the day because you've been eating all day. So you've been like taxing that system. But if you're break fast, if you don't start eating until later in the day, you're much more primed and insulin sensitive than if you had been eating earlier. So I think that's something really important to keep in mind with a lot of the data about eating earlier versus eating later. I get sad to think some people hear this idea and then they think that they just can't fast then. But I'm really glad that you talked about the leptin thing. That's a really good thing to point out. So thank you for that. Yeah, but it was really exciting to read all of the people's different approaches to the fasting. And I feel like the takeaway for me is that there's so many different approaches and clearly so many different things work for different people. So definitely work to find the fasting window that works for you and also know that you can change it. You can also not change it. I think there's sometimes pressure that people feel like they have to change things up. But if something's working for you, keep on keeping on, I think, in my opinion. Yeah, any other thoughts about that?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think, I mean, the only other situation that just came to mind is, you know, someone who is very undermuscled or has lost a lot of muscle if they've been on bed rest or something. That could be a situation where you want to make sure to stop muscle protein breakdown as early in the day as possible. You know, someone who's like frail, elderly, really undermuscled, breakfast would be probably a good option. But again, it's really like very specialized circumstances, I think, where you're getting more benefit than not, especially if it's something that you like doing. A lot of people who skip breakfast do it because it aligns with how they feel in the morning. And I know you've talked about also and written about how hormonally we're kind of primed to eat later in the day than we are first thing in the day.

Melanie Avalon:
So I definitely think we are. So like the moment I did a blog post on this, I'll put a link to it in the show notes. It's called, I should probably retitle it to something more search friendly, but it's called early versus late night eating, contradictions, confusions, and clarity. I went through and looked at like the actual hormonal profiles of what happens for most people at different times of the day. And like right upon awakening, it's not really any of the hormones conducive to eating. Like it just from a hormonal standpoint does not, to me, seem to make sense to be eating. Like your cortisol is going up higher. So basically, the hormone is associated with eating. So like higher ghrelin, lower leptin, changes in adrenaline and cortisol and all these things are shifted a little bit later in the day. They're not right upon awakening, even adiponectin aligns accordingly. So I personally don't think that we're meant to wake up and eat right away. Because historically, as an evolutionary perspective, you'd wake up and it'd be like, time to go find the food. So your body is primed to give you endogenous energy, energy that you already have inside of you to go find the food. It's not like we would wake up to a buffet breakfast. That was not the situation happening, at least not on this planet. So any other thoughts? Yeah, I think that covers it pretty well. Awesome. Awesome. So a few things for listeners before we go. The show notes for today's show will be at ifpodcast.com/episode375. The show notes will have a full transcript, so definitely check that out. And there will be links to everything that we talked about, including element and Nutrisense. Again, if you would like your own continuous glucose monitor, which I don't think we actually said, I know we said it's like a sensor that you put on your arm, but I will say that they're very easy to apply. They can look intimidating. They're not you just like stick it on, you don't even feel it. I remember being so shocked the first time I put it on how much you don't feel it when you're putting it on. And it measures the interstitial fluid constantly to provide that look at your blood sugar levels. So the link for that is Nutrisense.com/ifpodcast with the coupon code ifpodcast to get $50 off. And then you can follow us on Instagram. We are ifpodcast. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is Ketogenic Girl. I think that's all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I had a wonderful time and just want to thank everyone for the great comments. I love hearing them and going through them with you and it was so much fun to chat all about CGM so I'm excited to circle back in the future when you do your next round and I do you know several more weeks as well we can chat more about some more insights.

Melanie Avalon:
I know that'll be really exciting. I'm really looking forward to it.

Vanessa Spina:
It would be fun to ask in the group you know what were people's biggest or takeaways from their CGM experience.

Melanie Avalon:
I'll post that today, that's perfect. Good idea. Awesome. Well, have a wonderful evening and I will talk to you next week. All right, sounds great. Bye. Talk to you then, bye -bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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Jun 16

Episode 374: Autoimmune conditions, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Inflammation, C-Reactive Protein, Plant Based Diets, Fasting Styles, And More!

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Apollo Neuro: Instant Stress Relief, The Science Of Safety, Sound Wave Therapy, Health And Happiness, Practical Tools For Peace, And More!

Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

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Listener Q&A: Jen Marceaux - IF & RA Question

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Listener Q&A: What type(s) of intermittent fasting do you practice and why?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #74 - Benjamin Bikman, Ph.D.

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TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 374 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is episode number 374 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your world, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, we just had an amazing weekend away. We went to this magical little town for the weekend with a couple of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who my son Luca is obsessed with their boys and they just had the most fun weekend. We all had the most fun weekend being together there. And it was great to get out of the city, just like, you know, get away for, I guess we went Saturday to Monday and I'm still just buzzing off the trip because it was so relaxing, so enjoyable. And you know, when you have little ones, like, and they have friends to play with all weekend, your parents get a little bit of like a break too, so we could sit, enjoy some Prosecco, relax together. Yeah, it was such a fun weekend away. And then we got back. It just feels like we've been kicking off summer. We've been grilling a lot and just, I love grilling because grilling season. I mean, it's delicious to grill, but for me, I feel like I get a break from cooking for at least a few months and a big break because Pete loves to grill. So I basically just have to get the burgers or steak ready and he does the cooking and it's a really nice change of pace.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, grilling. If I were to grill, I would, I literally would just like put it there for a hot second. We've talked about how we cook our steaks, right? Yes, I think so. Like I like mine super rare, very rare. How do you like it?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I like it so rare that people stare. Oh, I like that. People are like, Are you sure? And yeah, I when we were recently in Spain, I got this steak that was so rare and my aunt was just like, Are you okay? Like, I'm like, I've been in Europe too long because in Prague, tartar, like beef tartar is huge and in Paris. And so there's a lot of tartar places. I was craving it my whole pregnancy. And it was like one of the things that was the most excited to get to have again, but I love raw beef. It's just amazing and steak. Sometimes depending on the cut, I'll get it like medium rare, but I love like rare most of the time to and just getting a steak, being able to grill a steak at home, the way that you have it in the restaurant. I know we talked about how you worked at Ruth's Chris, which is my favorite steakhouse. But you know, you go to a restaurant and you pay, you know, 1020, sometimes way more times the price of steak just to eat it the way that they make it at the restaurant, because they have these incredible grills. And they have these like infrared heat, these huge infrared grills that now people can actually get at home. There's a company that I recently started checking out called Schwank grills, and they they basically make the grills that go in all the restaurants. I'm not sure if they had one in Ruth's Chris, but there's a couple of restaurants that are really famous that I think Morton's is one of them. And they make the grills that go in their restaurants. And they started making at home versions so that people can just do that at home and not have to go to the restaurant and basically save so much money because you can have restaurant quality steak at home because of that special infrared grill that you basically you just can't do that, you know, with a stove or even with a regular barbecue.

Melanie Avalon:
So they actually made the grills and mortons? I didn't realize that.

Vanessa Spina:
I think so. I think that's what he told me on our call, but now it's been a few months, so I'm like... Oh, okay. Back check. He told me, I think it was Morton's, because I was really hoping it was Ruth's Chris.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, the same heating technology used by Morton's.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah. So he told me on the call that the grandfather of the founder of Schwank Girls, he invented this technology, the infrared grilling, and they provide the infrared girls in a lot of steakhouses and Morton's is one of them. Did you find it on their website?

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, I didn't realize that they have the same technology as Morton's. That's really cool. And I'm just looking them up and they also, let's see. It's the same technology used by Morton's cut for 32 Del Frisco's and many other world -class steakhouses. So yes. So friends, if you are into grilling, the Schwank grills sound absolutely amazing. I just have one little quick fact about what to grill in the Schwank grill. Do you know like the USDA system, like the Select, the Choice, the Prime? I had epiphany about this recently, about the steaks. So that's the grating system. And they always talk about how great USDA Prime steaks are. And even when like, when I was at Ruth's Chris, we would have like USDA Prime, you know, fillets that we've made in this crazy infrared heat. I wonder if it was infrared heat at Ruth's Chris. I'm not sure, but it got really hot. Regardless, I was thinking about it. And if you're eating conventional, and I would be curious your thoughts on this, Vanessa, my thoughts are if you're eating grass -fed beef, I feel better about the higher fat cuts, but if I'm eating like conventional beef, I would want to get leaner because the, the toxins and everything are typically stored in the fat. And then the conventional beef is going to have a less, slightly less ideal Amaco 3 .6 fatty acid ratio. But again, it's not a huge source of that anyways, but my point is if I'm eating conventional beef, I would want to go leaner and the grating. So like Select versus Choice versus Prime, it really has to do with the marbling. So it really has to do with how much fat the steaks have. So if you're shopping at the grocery store, the Select and the Choice steaks, which are going to be cheaper, it's really more about how they just have less fat. And in a conventional steak, that's actually what I would want. Actually, maybe even with grass -fed because I actually like eating leaner beef. I feel like it's a little hack for the grocery store about saving money on steaks.

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, I love grocery store hacks, any way to make buying high quality meat more affordable, more accessible for more people. And I do sort of, I do practice that myself. When it comes to beef, I tend to buy leaner cuts in general, just as a day to day way of eating. And then if I am going for something, you know, more luxurious, richer, fattier cut, it's usually I go with something grass fed and finished. Usually what we get here is from Ireland or Argentina. Both of those places have grass fed and finished steak here. I think in the US, I usually get it from New Zealand. Whenever I'm in the US and I get my butcher box shipment, I also get all the grass fed and finished beef in there. And I usually choose those fattier cuts as well.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, see, that's an example, glad you brought a butcher box, an example of not having to worry about that as much because all their beef is grass -fed. So here's all the hacks. If you want to go like the conventional grocery store route, get the cheap select beef. And then if you want the grass -fed, get it from ButcherBox because that will save you money and that will be coming straight to your door anyways. And then get your Schwank grill. And we actually have a code for listeners for Schwank grills. So if you go to Schwankgrills.com, so that's S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com, you can use the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off of your grill. So that's Schwank grills, S -C -H -W -A -N -K grills.com with the promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 off. I really want to give one of these to my dad for Father's Day. When is Father's Day? I think it's June next month. So Father's Day was yesterday. Yes. So that would have been a great present or a good last -minute present if you forgot your dad, which would be a little bit sad, but you can order it now. So yes. And actually speaking of, okay, just one more thing while we're talking about really fun products really quickly. I am so, so excited because I've been talking for so long and I've been using every single night of my life Apollo Neuro. Do you know what this is, Vanessa? I love that.

Vanessa Spina:
it up after you sent me the link it sounds amazing

Melanie Avalon:
And I use a lot of biohacking type things in my life. I started using this when I first, I was around when I first launched my biohacking podcast. It's a game changer. I probably have used it every single night for years, with very, very few exceptions. And I hear equally favorable excitement from listeners about it. So basically what it is, it's a kind of like a watch that you put on your hand, but it's not a watch, obviously. The face of it basically buzzes. It uses soundwave therapy, which is gentle vibrations, and has different programs. And the way it works is those gentle vibrations on your wrist actually activate your parasympathetic nervous system. So it can basically instantly turn off your stress or at least mitigate it just with the touch of a button. It's incredible. I really think it's a game changer in helping me when I was really struggling to actually fall asleep. But it has a lot of other different modes. It has social mode for during the day. It has muscle recovery, things like that. But I use the unwind one every single night, and then it has a sleep one. It's a game changer. I have given it to so many people. I gave it to my mom, and she said it was absolutely amazing. I actually need to text her about it because I feel like she stopped using it. You know how there's some people that you give them things and they love it, and they just stop using it. But yeah, so I'm really excited because they asked to partner with our show, and I just love them for that one. Listeners can go to apolloneuro.com/ifpodcast and use code IFPODCAST to get a discount on that. So I am very, very excited about that, and the last thing about that, but I'm excited as well because the founder, Dave Rabin, who I've had on my show, I think twice, he's going to be at the biohacking conference, which by the time this comes out that this will be in the past, but hopefully I'll get to meet him in person, which is very exciting. That is so soon for me. So yes, but I think that is all the things. Shall we get into some questions? I would love to. All right. So would you like to read the first question from Jen?

Vanessa Spina:
So our first question comes to us from Jen. Hi, I'm a new listener of your podcast but have been doing IF off and on for about four years in parentheses COVID need I say more I'm back at it and I'm trying to bring a friend along with me. She has rheumatoid arthritis and was recently prescribed Remicade infusions which might be helpful for RA but just like many other pharmaceutical treatments it can also cause a host of other scary things. I suggested that she try intermittent fasting. I know you're not doctors and do not offer medical advice but can you speak to any benefits IF could possibly provide for someone with joint pain, inflammation and autoimmune disorders in general. Thanks. I'm loving your podcast so much. I went back and started at the beginning while I wait for new episodes to come out. Smiley face. I feel like I'm hanging out with my BFFs while I'm listening. I love that Jen. Thank you so much for this great question.

Melanie Avalon:
So, I love this question from Jen. It was actually good timing because last night I was listening to, do you subscribe to Peter Tia's?

Vanessa Spina:
special feed. I do and sometimes I pause it. So right now I have it actually paused and then other times I'll go back and subscribe.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, and then like stock up.

Vanessa Spina:
No, it just kind of like depends when I'm feeling the his content and when I'm not like I find like sometimes he gets in these cycles of when he's like really pro this or anti this or I don't know, it's just depending on what kind of content is coming out. I'm either a subscriber or not, but yes and no.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness. Now I'm having flashbacks. I had a dream that I met him the other night. I've realized the two people I dream most about meeting are Taylor Swift and Peter Atiyah, which is interesting, but I dreamed he like came up to me and he was like, he was like, I know about your podcast. He was like, one is about biohacking and one is about intermittent fasting. I just can't, you know, cause like he, those are like his, the two things he kind of like, well, biohacking, he does not like. And then fasting, he seems all over the board and it was a tragedy of a dream. Regardless, his most recent Q and a was all about inflammation. So I was excited cause I was like, this is perfect for this question. Although he didn't, I have a few more minutes left in it, but he did not talk about fasting yet. But what I was thinking about was the big takeaway that he really talked about a lot with it. And this is what I think I would have probably said and come to as well is that such a huge factor in our inflammatory conditions is our diet and the food that we're putting in our body. He actually said like the first thing to address really with inflammation is energy overload, like taking in, you know, too much fuel and the effects that that has. But beyond that, so like beyond excess caloric intake and weight and all of those things, there's also, you know, they're reacting to food components. And I'm going to circle back to that because of some of the studies that I found. So I did find a nice October 2023 review and it was called intermittent fasting, a promising dietary intervention for autoimmune disease. And so it was talking about how there are, you know, quite a good amount of studies on intermittent fasting that have shown beneficial effects on various autoimmune diseases and that the different reasons that that might be is because it can reduce inflammatory markers, it can modulate the immune system, it can alter and improve gut microbiota, it can enhance cellular repair mechanisms. And it does that last one through autophagy, which is something we talk about a lot, which is basically where the body goes and in the fasted state uses old problematic broken proteins in the body and breaks them down and reuses them. So it's kind of like a cleansing on the cellular level. So in this review, they said the types of autoimmune conditions that have shown beneficial effects from fasting include type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and systemic lupus. They said that there needs to be, that there's limited evidence and inconclusive evidence on MS. Now they're saying lupus again. So that's interesting. That sounds like a typo in this paper, thyroid diseases and psoriasis. So all of that said, basically, there are a ton of mechanisms within intermittent fasting that can help with inflammation and autoimmune disease. And I did want to look specifically into rheumatoid arthritis for her question. And so I found a very nice study from March 2024, so also pretty recent. And it was called fasting mimicking diets, a literature review of their impact on inflammatory arthritis. And I was worried it was going to be just about fasting mimicking diets, but it actually wasn't. It actually was about fasting in general. I'm not really sure why they, I feel like they should have titled it something a little bit different. But so in this study, and it was very intense, but they basically talk about the role of fasting in autoimmune conditions in the immune system and autoimmune conditions in general. And basically fasting has a lot of effects on proinflammatory cytokine expression. So that's kind of like what I was talking about a moment ago with the inflammatory markers. And it also has a really interesting impact on both cell trafficking and cell metabolism. So there's a lot of different inflammatory markers that fasting can affect. So there's things like CRP, TNF -A alpha, interleukin -6, IL -6 that people might have heard of, leptin, really quick tangent about CRP. And I don't know if we've talked about this before on the show. Have you tested your CRP much, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I've tested it here and there over the years, how often do you...

Melanie Avalon:
test it? Well, the reason I was asking is because I test it. So I use insight tracker all the time and it's on their panel. So I've tested it regularly multiple times a year for years and years. And mine's I'm a flat line. What's interesting about it is I guess I thought that that would be normal because it's such a flat line. I've never I've never bumped. It's always the lowest it can be, which it doesn't test for zero. It's like less than one is the lowest it can be on the test. So the lowest it can test on the test is point. Well, okay. It says it can be zero to eight. The range on insight tracker is zero to point eight. I'm wondering if you can even test zero because minus point has been point three every single test for years and years and years. And I thought that that would be normal because it was so flat line. I was like, Oh, that must just be something that some people do. But one of my friends at insight tracker said he's never seen that before ever. I was like, wow. So, and it's funny because I always sort of feel like I'm inflamed. Like I think I get kind of psychosomatic, like obsessed with the concept of inflammation. And I'm like, Oh, I'm inflamed. But from a cellular level, I'm not. So in any case, going back to all the stuff about inflammation, the reason I'm talking about it so much is because arthritis and autoimmune conditions are an inflammatory condition and fasting has such a beneficial effect on all these different biomarkers. Some of the other mechanisms of actions that it talks about, it's postulated that that rheumatoid arthritis actually involves metabolic issues in the cell and the cells aren't actually able to produce enough ATP. And it's been shown that fasting can have a beneficial effect on that entire process, which is super cool. And then so fasting also has a beneficial effect on the balance of the T cells and how they're acting in our immune system. So those are some of the cells that are involved in actually, you know, doing what the immune system needs to be doing. And then what's also really interesting as well is that there might actually be a gut microbiome connection to arthritis and fasting has been shown to have a beneficial effect on the gut microbiome. Circling back to diet, like I was saying earlier, so there's been a few studies on fasting and dietary interventions on rheumatoid arthritis, and they actually in the studies combine them with a diet. So like in one of the studies, they actually combined fasting with a vegetarian diet. And they saw when they did that, so basically not, they didn't like eat during the fast, but they fasted and they followed it up with a vegetarian diet. And they found a significant decline in symptoms for patients who did that eating plan for three and a half months, compared to people who did not. And what's really interesting in the trials and something that they noted is that the benefits that people did seem to experience from fasting would come back when people went back to their normal eating pattern. So it's not like you could use fasting to, I don't really like saying in remission because it sounds like, oh, it can never go away. Or it can sound like you can't be cured in a way. But it is really important to keep in mind that if you put your body back into the state where it's encouraging that inflammatory condition, or it's encouraging that condition that affects the immune system, that the condition would come back. So with something like arthritis, it's not really, I don't think it's like you can cure it permanently with fasting, but it could be that while you're doing fasting, you experience a drastic reduction in your symptoms or like I was saying, going into remission. But yes, basically, there was a lot of literature on fasting and inflammation and the immune system and autoimmune conditions, and quite a few on arthritis specifically. So do you have thoughts on fasting and autoimmune conditions, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Well, that was such an incredible overview. So comprehensive, so detailed. I mean, it's hard to think of anything to add to that. It was such an amazing response and just so much wonderful information. I think it's amazing, you know, with the body, how intelligent it is, and how it is programmed to thrive and be in homeostasis. And often, we're doing things that interfere with that. And that's one of the reasons I love fasting so much is that you kind of step out of the way of your body's natural innate intelligence and let it restore things. And I think that's why we see so much, you know, healing happening with fasting, why we see so much lowered inflammation, all the things that you were talking about. And, you know, as Jen said, we're not doctors. But you know, there's a lot of research out there showing that, you know, fasting does provide some of these benefits. And a lot of people actually, you know, report that they have alleviation of their symptoms, you know, with either fasting or a combination of fasting and, you know, some kind of medical protocol as well. So, you know, it definitely couldn't hurt to try it, I think. But you know, it all depends on what your friend thinks. But if you are able to maybe show her some of the study, show her some of the research, then maybe she'll become interested and want to try it out. And it could work well for her. It could not. But I don't really think there's that much harm in trying it. And it's, there's just so many lifestyle interventions that are basically free of charge. You know, it just takes trying it out, testing it out and seeing if it makes a difference for you. And if it does, how valuable is that? You know,

Melanie Avalon:
It's so true. And I'm glad you pointed that out. I think it's a really high potential benefit for a really low risk. So like the risk reward ratio is on point. I also forgot to mention Dr. Walter Longo, who did develop the fasting mimicking diet, which I was mentioning in that title of that study. I remember one of his studies and I remember him like saying this. Did he say this to me like on the show? I can like hear his voice saying this. I don't know if it was like on a podcast or on my show or his audio book, but I know they found in their work that they could actually basically regenerate, like replace the rodents entire immune system. Like when they would go on these fasting mimicking diets, it would kill off these old immune cells and basically create a new immune system. Again, that was in rodents, but there's definitely a lot of, a lot of promise there. Like I'll read the summary of the study I was reading or talking about that was specifically about arthritis. So their conclusion was fasting acts on cellular mechanisms and regulates the metabolism of immune cells. Thus commitment to an eating pattern that includes a fasting component could suppress the inflammatory process. So far, most of the reported dietary interventions show beneficial effects on symptoms and disease progression and rheumatoid arthritis and PSA patients, but says there is still much to learn about fasting and the impact of different fasting patterns on non obese and older patients. And more evidence is required before recommending any such eating regimens as supplemental diet therapy to patients with inflammatory arthritis. And to clarify that, that sentence I feel is talking more about like doctors, you know, recommending this as an actual, you know, diet, like it says, diet therapy. I wouldn't be nervous about that sentence or shy away from using it. I find that overall, the study was really, really supportive. Like the beginning of the conclusion said, definitely let us know Jen. I mentioned earlier that that CRP, that would be a good, you know, if somebody's looking for like an actual marker of something changing for inflammation in their body. I mean, of course they could look at their autoimmune markers, like their antibodies, but measuring their CRP would be something good to look at because that would be a good indicator of, you know, how is your inflammatory response in your body actually changing? And do you have chronic inflammation or not? So Okey Dokey, and actually I'll give a link for inside tracker. Since I, like I said, I'm so obsessed with it. You can go for that one. You can go to inside tracker.com/Melanie, and the coupon code Melanie will get you. They just switched over to a subscription model. I know you get some sort of discount with that code. So that is something to check out. Okay. Shall we go into our next topic? I would love to. So I thought this would be fun. I really liked posting in the Facebook group and asking questions for the audience. And I was really curious asking people, I said, friends, what type of intermittent fasting or types do you practice and why? I was really curious what people would say. So would you like to hear what some of the people are practicing? I would love to.

Vanessa Spina:
I love these segments.

Melanie Avalon:
I like it too because I don't read it beforehand, the answers. So it's like in real time, me reading it right now. And I like hearing people's reasons. So Emily said she does a daily eating window because it is a comfortable way to live. So I'm not sure exactly what hours she's practicing. Janice says she does a daily fasting window. Okay, so now we're getting into it right away, whether or not people look at the eating window or the fasting window. So Janice does a daily fasting window of 18 to 20 hours. She says, I'm just not hungry. All I eat is protein and healthy fats. During the week before my menstrual cycle, I cut back to 14 hours or so because perimenopause is kicking my butt these days. We had a recent episode where we talked about fasting around your menstrual cycle. So listeners can check that out. Bethany said, I mainly do 16, 8, but once a week, a 24 hour fast and a couple times a year, a two to three day fast. I'm about to start trying 12 to 14 hours fasting as I'm not losing fat. Even though I'm not hungry for breakfast, I realize I'm not getting enough protein in two meals. I mostly eat protein and veggies and fruit. I just can't eat too much at once or I feel bloated. Stephanie said I stopped eating after dinner and I don't eat again until lunch the next day. IF has helped my late night snacking so much. Zoe said I'm usually an 18 -6 schedule, but I've done a couple 36 hour fasts. Andrea said I eat one meal a day fasting 20 to 23 hours per day. It's simply the pattern that I've fallen into comfortably and easily. It works with my schedule to eat dinner with my family. Then I keep eating until I'm full and I close my window again until dinner the next day. I've done a few extended fasts of 48 hours without problems. I don't have a reason to eat one meal a day. Aside from it's just what naturally comes to me. I'm not hungry during the day so there's no reason to eat. I'm written fasting has been an absolute game changer in my health. My doctor is thrilled with my labs. He gets so excited to see me because I always have him run a fasting insulin test. None of his other patients are ever fasted long enough or have already had their coffee. Jane said that this is her pattern as well that she's been fasting five and a half years and it is effortless to live this way and has been a game changer for her health too. I'm trying to remember didn't you test your insulin your doctor said it was too low?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it always gets circled because it's like way out of range. But it's usually around two. I think the last I had it was 1 .4 and I need to do an updated test, but everything gets so wonky during pregnancy and postpartum I'm waiting a little bit. And then I will do an updated test, but it's tight. My, it's my, my blood glucose control is tight. And yeah, I know we're, we're going to be talking next episode about CGM's and I definitely saw it in action using the CGM. So just a little teaser about that episode, but yeah, it was, it was too. And a lot of my things come out of range and I want them to be, because I don't want to be in range with the general population reference ranges because we know we have, you know, in the Western world, a population that is mostly metabolically unwell, so I want to be out of range.

Melanie Avalon:
No, well, speaking to the insulin, that's crazy about your insulin. They actually recently did add insulin to inside tracker as well, which was really exciting for me. So I have only tested it. I tested it the past two times. I went, it's never been low like yours. Like mine, let's see, mine last time was 4 .6. And then before that it was five. I'm normally usually like six or under. I'm trying to remember Dr. Benjamin Beckman. Did you interview him? Have you interviewed him? Dr. Beckman.

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, yes. Many times. Yeah. Are you talking about the best range for insulin? Six and below. Six. Okay. That's what I thought. That's the stricter side, which I agree with. Some people go higher than that. I've heard as high as 10. I know Dr. Gary Taubes, he's shown research when it goes above 15 is when people start to really have big issues with managing their weight, etc.

Melanie Avalon:
Well, yeah. So mine, mine's always been under six, which is good. Knock on wood. But yours, I mean, your sounds amazing too. So yes. Okay. Wait, why did I get inspired by that? Somebody said, Oh yeah. Andrea said that she ran her fasting insulin test and how excited her doctor was. So super cool. Um, a few more. So Kathy, 24 is her average. She says some days are a bit longer, some shorter. Mary Ann says 19 five. She opens her window at noon. She's flexible for social occasions and she eats every day. She started in August 2019. And then Arietta said, this is my pattern too. She started IF in August, 2018. I find it so interesting that people are giving like very specific things. And then other people have the same patterns as well. Laura said after years of 18, six, I've adopted a more flexible fasting schedule, intuitive eating, I guess putting on muscle requires me to eat more often, but my body can slip back into fasting on days. I feel the need. Oh, before I keep going, we did that teaser for the CGMs. We are going to talk about it next episode. I'm so excited because Vanessa has a lot of experience using them recently. Holly said I used to do a lot of 18, six, 19, five. I got a CGM and figured out my blood sugar spiked too much no matter what she ate, breaking her fast, switched to a short 12 to 14 hour fast and my blood sugar remains steady and I've lost weight and body fat. Tracking macros has also been key and I never eat after 7 p .m. So listeners can go to Nutrisense.com/IF podcast and use the coupon code IF podcast and that will get you $50 off a CGM. We love CGMs. Listen next week because we're going to talk some more about it. That's so interesting. So that's an example where she was fasting longer and then she found that by fasting shorter, it helped her blood sugar and I would wonder is it the fasting shorter or is it that when she fasted shorter, maybe it changed how she was eating and that had the effect, the different effect on the CGM. Do you have thoughts on that, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I say definitely if you are fasting, we know that's lowering insulin and making you more insulin sensitive, and you should notice a better recovery from your meals and things with the fasting. But I'm not sure how having a shorter fasting period would increase the insulin sensitivity. Do you know what that might like? I don't know what mechanism that would be. But sometimes you see results on the CGM that are sort of counterintuitive. You'll expect something to make your blood glucose rise and it will actually do the opposite. So there's a lot more I think happening than we actually fully understand, even though you have an app and it sort of is giving you interpretations and things. But typically, I would say a longer fast would make you more insulin sensitive. But again, so many things are bio individual. So it could be that that's just what works best for you.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, I agree. Like I, I would doubt it would be the actual fasting shorter that is creating the change. I would think it's probably maybe when you were fasting longer, you were, it could may or may not be something like this. I'm just putting it out there. Some people if they're fasting longer, maybe they overcompensate with eating and they eat more than they would have. And they have like a higher glycemic load in the, in the meal that they're eating than compared to when they, when they fast shorter, maybe they're eating, just eating less. I think that could happen probably with a lot of people.

Vanessa Spina:
I think that's a really good point. Oftentimes, if you fast for too long, then, you know, you might start wanting or thinking that you need more food than you do. And then you could maybe overeat or overcompensate. Whereas if you are doing more meals or something, then you won't be eating as much. I think that's a really good point.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. So some more. So Becca, she says ADF works great for me. She did 19 .5, 22 .2 and one meal a day, but now she's doing ADF and it works wonderful. So ADF for listeners, it's alternate day fasting and it's not really intuitive based on the naming, but basically it's usually where two days a week, you either fast completely and so like you don't eat those days or you eat up to like 500 calories. Sunny said after six years, I believe I am now in the eating window phase of the journey. Clean fast, 16 .8, no fuss, no muss. I love that and I love Sunny. She's been, she's like one of the original like people in my Facebook group from the very beginning. It's so weird to think that there was a time when the Facebook group, like when I started it, that's crazy to think about. Okay. Angie said, I started IF four or five years ago. I'm type two diabetic. My A1C used to fluctuate between six to seven. I'm proud to say for the past four years, my A1C is between 4 .8 to 5 .3. Some medication has been removed altogether and my metformin has been reduced to a small dose. I do one meal a day on weekends to switch things up. I have made this lifestyle for health benefits and any weight loss is a bonus. That is awesome. I love hearing that. Tabitha says, I have done IF for four and a half years now. First two years, I was one meal a day, 24. I lost 75 pounds. The third year I tried other IF protocols due to being peri -menopausal and listening to advice on fasting for hormones. I didn't like any of those and I slowly gained some weight. February, 2024, I went back to my original one meal a day plan with one day a week of 18, six, and I feel my best with this pattern. I like what she said there because, you know, we talked about it before on a prior episode, actually a lot of episodes, but there are a lot of recommendations to adjust fasting for your cycle and especially like your peri -menopause years. And for some people, that works really, really well. And for some people, it doesn't. They just like, you know, like doing what they normally do. And so that was the experience with Tabitha and I think that's just good motivation because I think it can be scary to try different things. So I think it's good to know that you can always try different things. And if they don't work, you don't have to do them. Like nobody's forcing you to do anything, which is really awesome. Like you have so much freedom in trying different things and finding what works for you. Kelly said, since I had my third baby at 43 and really started looking after my health, I've been intermittent fasting. So it's been seven years, but I've been doing it longer for 14 years. I would stop eating around seven at the latest and break my fast midday. I breastfed my baby for two and a half years. Even went to Thailand when she was one and a half, thinking that was long enough. I detox and fasted for nine days, expressing all my milk and felt so incomplete, wanting to continue to feed her. I put her back on and fed for another year. Just amazing. I do three day water fasts every three months and attend a annually. I'm due for my second one this summer. The autophagy process is so powerful. Alexander said 16, eight every single day. Often longer fasts really helped me lose 15 pounds and keep them off. It gives my body a break, makes me fat adapted. I think it made me get sick less and recover faster. Amy does anywhere from 16 to 18 hours fast on average. She started five years ago. She lost 20 pounds and she's maintained and she breaks her fast with two servings of perfect aminos. We have just a few more. So Terry, 16, eight, she started in 2021. She's 61. She opens her window from one to three p .m. However, this can cause trouble because I can snack too much after dinner, which has always been her weakness. On days that I get enough protein, it's easier to make better food choices after dinner. I'm considering getting a CGM to highlight the effects of food choices and timing, mainly to improve my sleep and overall health. My fasting insulin and weight are normal. I love the freedom and energy levels. Anna wanted to know, has anyone tried the fasting mimicking diet for five days? Just curious about the health benefits. I've heard it gives you a great reset. I forgot, Vanessa, have you tried the fasting mimicking diet? No. Yeah, I tried for like a day.

Vanessa Spina:
I think it's interesting for people who don't want to fast or can't fully fast. I think there probably should be something out there for people that is more accessible. I've heard it's sort of something that becomes popular in places where everyone is always excited about the latest fast, you know, the latest thing. But personally, I just think, you know, just fast, like fasting. You know, we talk about how the definitions of fasting or there's no consensus. To me, fasting is just not eating, just nothing, but I do understand the science behind it and the fact that lower protein intakes do have some effects. I just don't think that they necessarily should be extrapolated to humans because most of them have been done on rodents, on animal models that I don't think are comparable enough to us, and I think it's more important to get the protein in than to go doing these low protein diets, but it's just a personal opinion. So for me, if I'm going to fast, I'm just going to fast. Maybe here and there, throw in a low protein date if you want to, but the concept of that prolon fast, for me, I know would be, I would be starving, I would be thinking about food because I need protein to feel full and not think about food because my body every day, just like every other human, has to get protein. It's the one essential macronutrient that our bodies cannot synthesize on its own, and I would argue that even the quote unquote non -essential amino acids are essential, but that's a whole other podcast, so your body has to get protein every single day from external sources, and if it doesn't, then you will be getting it from your own sources, and your body is always going to need to keep and prefers to keep your vital organs that keep you alive over your muscle tissue, your skeletal muscle, things that are hard to put on, things that are hard to grow, so yeah, sorry, I'm going on a rant, a simple question, but I am really not a fan of it, so I think I get a little triggered when I hear it.

Melanie Avalon:
I almost wonder if, because I was talking earlier about how Peter Tia seems like he's such a fan of fasting and then like not at the same time, I don't know, he seems to have concerns about it. And I almost wonder if it's because he did so many, he always talks about how he went through a period of time where he was doing, like he was doing a lot of extended water fasts. And I wonder if like the muscle loss from that kind of carried over to his perspective of fasting, because he always goes on and on about fasting and being worried about muscle loss and how women need to have like a protein shake during their fast, which to me seems counterintuitive to have like eat food during your fast. But I wonder if it speaks to what you were talking about with these longer fasts and not getting the protein.

Vanessa Spina:
I just like let's call it what it is. It's a low calorie diet. It's a low calorie diet plan. But it's being called fasting mimicking or whatever, because it's trendy. And it makes people feel like they're fasting, but they're not they're on a low calorie diet. So I don't like that the term is being borrowed or used incorrectly. Because to me, it's just not fasting. It's, it's a low calorie diet, we all know what low calorie diets do. And especially ones that are devoid of protein. So when you look at it through the lens of a low calorie diet, with barely any protein in it, does that sound healthy? No, but when you call it fasting mimicking or fasting, whatever, then it gives it this halo effect that it's healthy. But I really don't think it's a good idea.

Melanie Avalon:
So I personally would find it very difficult to do. Like I said, I do think because I know the purpose of it is he basically Dr. Longo identified, I'm trying to remember how many biomarkers of fasting. It was like four, five, a handful of biomarkers that were elevated in fasting. It had to do with ketones and glucose and a few others. He found the dietary protocol that would create those same biomarkers while still allowing intake of these foods. And it was this protocol he came up with that's the fasting mimicking diet prolon and it's really low calorie. I guess what I would say to the... The reason I don't see it as just a low calorie diet is I think a lot of people do a low calorie diet, but they're not doing a prolon severely restricted five days protocol that creates these same fasting biomarkers, at least the ones that he found. I guess I feel like it could be for people who want to do a five day water fast, but some people do find eating that easier. I feel like for me, it spices up my hunger, makes me hungrier. I'd rather just water fast like you were saying. But for some people, I think it does make it easier. So like Nina commented on Anna's comment and she said, she said, I did it with prolon. I'm not sure if it did anything, but it was much easier than normal water fasting. I guess you have to do a pre and post test, but what would you test? I would answer for her the pre and post test. I mean, that would be a good time to do something like an Inside Tracker, like before and after, like their full panel. It sounds harder for me to do. I'd rather just water fast. I can see though the therapeutic benefit and I can also see like for people who, maybe people who have never fasted, who are severely overweight, who could benefit from a longer, lower calorie intense structure thing and they're just intimidated, maybe having the structure of prolon would work for them.

Vanessa Spina:
I do think it has a place, like I said, I think I agree with you. I think there are some people that might find it more accessible potentially. I know there was someone in our group for the podcast that said they did a proline and they use the tone device and their ketones went really high when they were doing it. Oh, that's cool. Cause I never heard anyone ever tested that before. But it makes sense because the protein was so low that they probably got into ketosis on it. Cause you can get into ketosis in so many different ways, even on there's research showing you can get into ketosis, a thousand calorie diet of all carbs. So it's like, it's, it's a state, right? It's a metabolic state, not necessarily a diet. So I do think that there are probably applications for it, but in general, if people want autophagy, I mean, I just interviewed Dr. Tommy Wood and I have a couple other guests who are coming on the podcast to talk about this, but he talks about in humans. If we really look at the human data on research, it's not conclusive that fasting really gives us so much amazing autophagy compared with, for example, exercise. So he said the research does state that doing a 30 minute resistance training workout, lifting weights gives you more autophagy than a three day fast. So between those two, which would you rather do if the science shows conclusively, you're getting the same amount of autophagy.

Melanie Avalon:
That's crazy, right? I didn't know they actually had seen that.

Vanessa Spina:
He's really interesting because I asked him a lot about Dr. Mark Madsen's research and he said, again, so much of the research has not been done on humans. There's a researcher that I'm about to have on the podcast and she's right now putting together some really interesting data on humans with regards to this because a lot of it's been done in the past with rodents, especially when it comes to mitochondrial biogenesis, coming from facet exercise versus fed exercise. It really has to do with how much you are activating your muscle. It's a whole other topic, I know, but you can get so much autophagy just from exercise, from doing resistance training, from lifting weights, and you don't necessarily have to fast for days and days. I think it's just a really key thing to keep in mind when you're considering all these different approaches. Doing extended fast, I think, over 48 hours may have more downside risk if you're over 40, especially, and you are trying to put on more lean mass to keep you healthy in your later years, whereas you could just get as much autophagy from doing some weightlifting.

Melanie Avalon:
That's amazing. I can't wait for the research. And yeah, I think that's a good example of something like one of the myths with fasting because people be like, autophagy is on or off, but autophagy is actually always happening. Fun fact, even at a small level, somewhere everywhere. So it's not, it's not even an on off switch. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, so there are two more comments. I think I'm going to save them for next episode because one of them has things I want to talk about associated with it. So this has been absolutely wonderful. So a few refreshers for listeners from the beginning of the episode, it's summer, it's grilling season. If you want to get a grill to deliciously grill your steaks restaurant quality style, definitely check out shrink grills at shrinkgrills.com with promo code IFpodcast to get $150 off. And then if listeners would like to submit their own questions for the show, they can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or they can go to ifpodcast.com and submit questions there. And then they can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcasts. I am Melanie Avalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. Oh, and the show notes are at ifpodcasts.com/episode374. And they will have a transcript as well as links to everything that we talked about. All right, I think that is all the things anything from you Vanessa before we go.

Vanessa Spina:
I had such a wonderful time and looking forward to the next episode.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too.

Melanie Avalon:
Talk to you then. Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

STUFF WE LIKE

Check out the Stuff We Like page for links to any of the books/supplements/products etc. mentioned on the podcast that we like!

LINKS

More on Melanie: MelanieAvalon.com

More on Vanessa: ketogenicgirl.com

Theme Music Composed By Leland Cox: LelandCox.com

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a review in Apple Podcasts - it helps more than you know!

Jun 09

Episode 373: Spirulina & Chlorella, Long Fasts & Cortisol, Fasting Over 40, Resistance Training, Fasting Definitions, Glutathione, And More!

GET THE EPISODE ON APPLE PODCASTS!

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #126 - Azure Grant

Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast, hosted by Melanie Avalon, author of What When Wine Diet: Lose Weight And Feel Great With Paleo-Style Meals, Intermittent Fasting, And Wine and Vanessa Spina, author of Keto Essentials: 150 Ketogenic Recipes to Revitalize, Heal, and Shed Weight.

Today's episode of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast is brought to you by:

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Schwank Grill: We love protein, and you can achieve the best grilling with Schwank Grills, featuring state-of-the-art infrared technology used in the world's best steakhouses (including Ruths' Chris and Morton's)! These grill create perfectly seared, steakhouse-worthy results every time. Make every cookout a special occasion with this ultimate grilling experience! Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

LUMEN: Lumen is the world’s first handheld metabolic coach: a device that measures your metabolism through your breath, to let you instantly find out if you're burning carbs or fat! The Lumen app also gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workouts, sleep, and even stress management! If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!

To submit your own questions, email questions@ifpodcast.com, or submit your questions here!!

SHOW NOTES

SCHWANK GRILL: Visit schwankgrills.com and use promo code IFPODCAST to get $150 OFF a Schwank Grill!

LUMEN: If you want to take the next step in improving your health, go to lumen.me and use code IFPODCAST to get 15% off your Lumen!

Listener Q&A: Andrea - What’s the truth about occasional long fasts (36hrs-48hrs)?

Listener Q&A: Michelle - Does taking glutathione break a fast?

The Melanie Avalon Biohacking Podcast Episode #171 - Dr. Nayan Patel

Visit MelanieAvalon.com/auro and use the code MelanieAvalon, for 5% off. Also add the code Auro10, for an additional 10% off!

TRANSCRIPT

(Note: This is generated by AI with 98% accuracy. However, any errors may cause unintended changes in meaning.)

Melanie Avalon:
Welcome to Episode 373 of The Intermittent Fasting Podcast. If you want to burn fat, gain energy, and enhance your health by changing when you eat, not what you eat with no calorie counting, then this show is for you. I'm Melanie Avalon, biohacker, author of "What, When, Wine" and creator of the supplement line AvalonX. And I'm here with my co-host, Vanessa Spina, sports nutrition specialist, author of "Keto Essentials" and creator of the Tone Breath Ketone Analyzer and Tone Lux Red Light Therapy Panels. For more on us, check out ifpodcast.com, melanieavalon.com, and ketogenicgirl.com. Please remember, the thoughts and opinions on this show do not constitute medical advice or treatment. To be featured on the show, email us your questions to questions@ifpodcast.com. We would love to hear from you. So pour yourself a mug of black coffee, a cup of tea, or even a glass of wine, if it's that time, and get ready for The Intermittent Fasting Podcast.

Melanie Avalon:
Hi, everybody, and welcome. This is Episode 373 of the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. I'm Melanie Avalon, and I'm here with Vanessa Spina. Hi, everyone. What is new in your life, Vanessa? Well,

Vanessa Spina:
I've been on this high from doing OMAD again, intermittent fasting. That's sort of been the biggest thing. And I'm also excited about some new testing I've been doing on my blood sugar. Those are like the things that excite me right now, but we're going on a fun getaway this weekend with two of my girlfriends here and their husbands and their kids who are the same age as Luca and Damian. We're going to this little, I think I told you about it last summer. We go every summer. It's this little fairy tale place. Yes, with the castles. Yes, it's a UNESCO heritage site and you don't really drive cars in there. So like you can spend the whole weekend there. So we're going with some friends. I'm so excited. And Luca is so excited because he gets to go with like basically his two of his best little buddies here. It was funny because you were asking me, you know, what, like, what did Luca and their friends, you know, what language they speak. And I was going to text you and be like, all my friends here are Americans. All of their kids speak English. Some of them speak like a bit of Czech as well. Like they know some of them no more than others. But yeah, all of my friend group here is pretty much they're all American expats. And then one of them is Australian. All my girlfriends are American. They're just living over here as like expats. So yeah, they all speak English with each other.

Melanie Avalon:
I know by the time this airs, it'll be way in the past, but I'm dying to know, was Luca, so he wasn't scared of the dinosaurs in the dina, in the dino.

Vanessa Spina:
No, it's funny. I was wondering if he was going to be scared. We went to this amazing dino park with all of our friends here and all their kids and the kids had the best time. And it was just, it was a lot of fun. Some of the kids are trying to get into like dinosaurs and stuff. But I thought he might be scared, but he wasn't. And there were a couple of parts. I was like, I'm kind of scared. He wasn't, you know, because they're, you know, huge animatronic dinosaurs and they were moving and like, it was so realistic. But yeah, they weren't scared. And then kind of remembered, like kids don't really have much fear, like maybe when they're older. But at this point, like they don't really, I don't think he really, I was saying to Pete, like, later that day, I was like, I don't think he knows what scared means. No, like, I don't think we've ever talked about that word or I don't think he's had an experience of that yet. So

Melanie Avalon:
That's so interesting. I only have like a few memories of being really scared as a child. The reason I was thinking about it is because I remember, I think my mom took me, do you know Six Flags? I've heard of it. I think my mom took me to Six Flags and I was really, really little. And I think it was around Halloween time and people were dressed up. And apparently I remember like freaking out and I remember us leaving like right at the beginning. So, and I have a distinct memory of being, do you remember when you were taught how to swim? I don't. I have a distinct memory of being taught how to swim and that did not go well. I remember they had to like, they like let us loose. They were like, do the spider crawl and like cling to the, yeah, I just remember thinking I was gonna die. Like my life flashed before my eyes. Yeah, that's really interesting. It makes me wonder what role does fear and parenting and nurture versus nature and, you know, how you react to your kids crying. And I don't know anything about parenting. So this is all me just like mumbling, but I'm really interested in what creates our perspectives of the world and how that is involved in parenting when you're young. Like does Luca cry a lot?

Vanessa Spina:
He has like a lack of emotional regulation, you know, for sure, at some point, but he's a very calm child. And I think a lot of it has to do with his diet and lifestyle. He only eats whole foods, he's never like consumed sugar, he doesn't eat any processed food. And, you know, I think it really contributes a lot to his stable mood, because I know he has very stable blood sugars. From what he eats, so he and we also don't do a lot of screen time. We noticed that screen time and consuming a lot of processed food, I think they both can cause a lot of issues with like tantrums and meltdowns and then combine together, they can also do that. So we just we don't do like restaurants and things like that. The only time that he's allowed to have screen time is if we have a long haul flight, like if we go on the airplane for like a long, like a, you know, 10 hour kind of situation. But otherwise, we just don't give him that. So I think it helps him be quite calm. And that's sort of what people say a lot about him. In general, he's just like an extremely calm child. So hopefully, the same thing will be the same thing with Damien.

Melanie Avalon:
And then you probably have the added benefit, so like on the long flights and stuff, so most kids if they've been consuming that content all the time, it's nothing really special for them. You can't like, you know, give it to them as like a special treat, but for Luca, like he doesn't normally get to do it as much, so I'm guessing that really helps with the long flights.

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, but in general, like we we tend to just like do a lot of sticker books and activities even on the plane and he'll sleep.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, sticker books. I lived. I lived for sticker books.

Vanessa Spina:
Did you have a sticker album?

Melanie Avalon:
Do you remember the company Clutz Kids by chance? I think it was called Clutz. Clutz, they had all these different books. They had like science books and like craft books and all these books. They would always be at the grocery store on like a turning, like a, what's it called? The things that like twist around, kind of like when you're getting birthday cards. Like when you're getting birthday cards and they're on the thing that twists. I think it's called a turnstile.

Vanessa Spina:
Turnstile in Canada anyway

Melanie Avalon:
I loved those books and they had this big sticker book and I think I had three three like three or four and like years in a row from traveling like we would get that sticker book and man fun times it would just be like these big crazy things with stickers and you would just create things so much fun. What's new with you? Well related to that a little bit because I'm just thinking how much gratitude I have for people like you raising kids with that diet and you know the effects that it has on their health and the health of our future and I'm reading right now Dr. Michael Greger's book newest book are you familiar with dr. Greger? Yeah

Vanessa Spina:
Yes, but I haven't heard the most flattering things, probably from Dr. Sean Baker, and I think they kind of have a bit of an antagonistic...

Melanie Avalon:
situation? Yeah. So, um, he's probably one of the most famous vegan researcher advocates. I mean, he's up there. I'm like, I've been reading his work for, I mean, years and years. His books are so long, but what's interesting about it is he does so much research. So it's very persuasive, everything he says, because there are so many studies and I really respect him for that. I know it takes a lot of time. I'm very, I mean, I'm kind of mind blown that I'm going to be interviewing him because I've been following his work for so long, but there are so many questions I want to ask him when I interview him. I just want to ask him all the counter arguments to the typical vegan arguments about the role of animal protein and stuff and diet. And the way this all relates to what we were just talking about is because he makes so many arguments that the majority of health issues and problems are because of animal protein intake or meat, dairy, things like that. I just find it so interesting that if you look at the history of us, like humans, and even relatively recent, I'm just thinking like pre, so like pre -processed food industry, like we were eating meat, so that's not what changed. What changed was these processed foods, like that's what changed. And I find it really interesting that meat, especially in the vegan world, gets so demonized as the problem when maybe it's not that, like maybe it's the processed foods. And the reason I was thinking about it was what you're talking about with not giving, you know, not feeding your kids all these processed foods. Yeah, this interview, that was going to be really intense. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
I just interviewed Dr. Vera Tarmen. I was mentioning it last episode, but I absolutely love her. And she's, you know, a medical doctor who's specialized in addictions. And she wrote Food Junkies. I don't know if you read that book. I haven't. It's amazing. She talks about how these ultra -processed foods, they generate levels of dopamine. And she talks about the units of dopamine that they release. And she talks about, like, how our physiology is adapted to having, say, like, 100, 200 units of dopamine, maybe 250 on, like, your wedding day or graduation, like, these special peak events where you have just such ecstatic feelings. And the processed foods give us these units of dopamine, like, cocaine, where you get, like, 400, 300, 400 units of dopamine. And it's so much that your body's not designed to be able to cope with that. And she talks about what happens to the receptors, and you get this up -regulation, down -regulation of the receptor sites. And basically how this processed food is, it's like any other drug, and how we have to start thinking of it as drug -like food. And I was talking to her about children, and I told her about what we do with our kids. And I'm like, sometimes I worry that I'm being too strict about it. And she said, but if you were talking about cigarettes, would you be like, I'm worried I'm being too strict by not letting Luca have cigarettes or not letting him have cocaine? I'm like, yeah, it sounds insane, right? But we do have to start reclassifying some of these foods because of the way they act on our body. Our bodies is so physiologically, you can actually measure it, what's happening, you know, to the body and how it affects the brain and how it creates this addictive pattern. And I also asked her, do you think that the standard American diet is basically creating food addicts? And she said, absolutely, because there's no way that you can meet those carb requirements without eating processed food. And that was my experience when I was vegetarian and vegan. In order for me to feel satisfied at the end of the day, I had to eat some processed food. You just can't only eat so much broccoli and cucumbers and whatever if you're not eating protein, like meat based protein, you can only eat so much tofu, like, eventually, you're gonna have to have some highly processed food. I do think we need to think of that food differently. And it would be very hard for me to interview someone like him because I feel like they're putting out harmful information. But I have to admire the fact that you're able to talk to people like that, who have such opposing points of view. And, you know, be able to admire their research and their work and everything. I remember Dr. Ted Neiman always says that there's like this U -shaped curve, where you really do well with, you know, optimal protein. And on the other side, eating very, very, very low protein can create also like a lot of I guess he was talking about maybe in the context of fat loss or something. But based on everything I've learned about body composition, and how I was when I was eating that way, like, I think you can lose a lot of weight, but I don't think it's all necessarily high quality weight loss.

Melanie Avalon:
I mean, I feel obviously very similar and part of me wonders because I've made a really conscious decision with the show to bring on people of completely different opinions. And I do because you were mentioning about him putting out false information and stuff and I do think about that sometimes and like am I like giving a platform to things I don't agree with? So it's like a fine line of, I think about this a lot, but I really do want to bring on people like that because I really want to hear what they have to say to what I am wondering or curious about or questioning about what they say. Like I want to know like what their answer is respectfully. So it's an exciting opportunity to interview them. It's going to be intense though. If I ever finish the book, the audiobook is like 20 hours, which is a long time, so we shall see. Okay. I will just give one little quick update. Hopefully by the time this comes out, hopefully, I think my third podcast should have launched because we're planning to launch it at the beginning of June. So hopefully the Mind Blown podcast is out there, friends and listeners. So check that out. As well, hopefully the spirit, my spirulina supplement should be coming out. We're figuring out the launch date right now. So we're hoping for beginning of July. So those are my updates. Any other updates or shall we jump into some things?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, that sounds very exciting. I'm really excited to try your spirulina because I'm obsessed with it. I got Luca taking it every day with me. Yeah. And it's so cute because I call it the medicine because he had this whole thing where like Damien was getting medicine and he wanted medicines. I was like, you can have some medicine too. So every night, usually before I go to bed, I have chlorella and he's like, I want some medicine. So he comes, like sits on the counter with me and I usually give him two. So Catherine Anderson said, you can give them one tablet for every year of how old they are. So soon he'll be able to have three, but he has two spirulina tablets and he just crunches them up and he just eats them and he loves it. And it's so, it's great because I know he's getting, you know, such incredible nourishment from that in terms of the plant foods that we don't eat as much of, which is like also what makes me feel really good about taking it. And I know he doesn't need all the antioxidants as much, but he's just getting so much from it. And I just love like, it's our thing at the end of the day, like after this podcast, you know, I'll probably go and we'll go have our medicine. It's so cute. And she said, you know, one tablet is equivalent to the nutrients in one pound of vegetables or something. So, you know, as a parent, it makes me feel so good that he's having it.

Melanie Avalon:
Okay, first of all, that's like the cutest thing ever, the medicine, that's so cute. I was just sitting here smiling, oh my, giving him his medicine. Oh my goodness, that's adorable. I wonder why Catherine says there's a limit for that amount. I'm actually right now, we're signing off on the bag and everything. So I got the, I was like looking at the supplement facts on the back of the bag. It's shocking, the amount of nutrition and spirulina. So I'll just like tell listeners really quickly, for us, 30 tablets is a serving. I think energy, but that's the same serving size for them. So it's like, if you know energy bits, it's one of their single serving packets. That's what's considered a serving. So just that, well, it has four grams of protein, but it's a complete amino acid profile. So it has a hundred percent of your vitamin K, 27% of your B2, let's see, 3% B1, 6% B3, 3% B6, 625% of your B12, which is amazing, especially for people on plant -based diets, because those are typically lacking B12, but you can get that from spirulina and chlorella, has 53% of your iron, which is crazy to me. And chlorella, I think has even more. We will be launching a chlorella as well. But some other ones, like 86% of your chromium, has 8% of your magnesium, 8% selenium. It's just, it's crazy how rich it is. And then it also has, like you mentioned the antioxidants, it has these like random things like superoxide dismutase and has glutathione in it and GLA. So it really is like, I don't like the term superfood, but if I were to nominate a superfood for the superfood awards, I'd probably nominate spirulina, chlorella, they'd be up there. So yeah, it's exciting. I can't wait to send it to you.

Vanessa Spina:
you I can't wait to try yours and yeah I'd specifically take the chlorella because it has the K2 and I was low on K2 postpartum and also it helps boost Damien's K2 through breast milk because I have to give him K vitamin K drops every week so you have to do that for newborns if you choose not to get the shot after they're born so I always take the chlorella at night also because Katherine said it was amazing for detoxification and so I usually take the I take the spirulina when I open my fasting window I don't have it during the day because I don't consider it to be clean fast friendly even though that's been said but it has protein in it so I treat it as a superfood as you have protein superfood so I always have the spirulina at the start of my window and I have the chlorella right before bed and it helps a lot with detoxification pulling toxins out of your stored tissues and helping you excrete them by binding to them because of that hard cell wall

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, it's amazing for that. Now I'm, because I'm looking at our supplement facts, so like I said, it has 100% of vitamin K. I'll have to check if that's the K2 form. I'm assuming it is.

Vanessa Spina:
The spirulina has K, but the chlorella has a K2 from energy bits, but I'm not sure what it is with yours.

Melanie Avalon:
I'm making a note of this to research this so thank you because that's something I really I want to know personally so thank you

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, K2 really helps with blood clotting, which can be an issue postpartum, and it's a vitamin that I was lower in. You can also get it from an egg, just like you can get the B12 and choline and stuff. But if you're vegan, you're not getting eggs, or if you're not eating eggs every day, then it's really helpful. But for me, it's replaced, spirulina and chlorella have replaced my multivitamin. I mean, you look at the breakdown like it really can. It's not just a multivitamin, it also replaced my cookie tin. It also replaced something else, the fish oil, because it has an omega -6 that is considered. It acts in the body like an omega -3. And I think there's one other thing. So you can really save a lot by switching out several supplements for spirulina and chlorella. And I'm not someone who likes to take a lot of stuff. So for me, just taking one thing, I like to just take one or two things. And I feel like everyone in the world should be taking spirulina and chlorella daily.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I need a sound clip of that.

Vanessa Spina:
Especially because of the phycocyanin, it kills cancer cells in in petri dishes and it's what's used in chemotherapy. They use phycocyanin and it's basically found in really high concentration in, I think it's in the spirulina, not the chlorella, I think it's in the spirulina. But they're both so amazing to take. I really feel like everyone in the world should be taking it. I'm trying to get my parents to take it next.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh my goodness, I can't wait to send you mine. And what I love about it as well is you're getting all of these vitamins and these nutrients in their real food form, like not synthetic. I just feel like they're so much better absorbed by the body. Yeah, and yours is raw, I'm assuming. Yes, it's not, yeah, heat treated.

Vanessa Spina:
I think you said last time you were taking, I was mentioning I take about seven grams of each, which is about 30 tablets of each, and you said you were doing like double that.

Melanie Avalon:
Mm -hmm. I usually do about double that.

Vanessa Spina:
Is it just like for just getting more?

Melanie Avalon:
I just love it. It's like that time. I just love eating it and that's like intuitively what feels like the right amount for me in my big, you know, one meal a day situation. Obviously you have it in your eating window.

Vanessa Spina:
Mmhmm.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah. And I'm excited because I like the way, I know some people don't like the taste. If so, you can swallow it. You can crush it and add it to foods. I just put it in my smoothie.

Vanessa Spina:
sometimes.

Melanie Avalon:
Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to do it

Vanessa Spina:
Oh, it also replaces a green. Sorry, if you're someone who has traditionally taken like a greens supplement, it also replaces your greens. Yes.

Melanie Avalon:
It's so amazing. I'm so happy you understand.

Vanessa Spina:
It's like mana from heaven. It doesn't even make sense that this exists and that when you actually look at the breakdown of what's in it, it looks like it was godsend. It's incredible.

Melanie Avalon:
No, it's so funny because like, that's the way I've been feeling about it. But then when I finally got back the supplement fact label for our bag, I was on the phone with Scott and I was looking at it. I was like, is this right? I was like 625% of your B12, 53% of your iron. So then I was like going to chat GPT and I was like fact checking everything. And yep, it's accurate.

Vanessa Spina:
And the superoxide dismutase, I mean, there's lots of antioxidants and there's glutathione. I think there's superoxide dismutase and there's one other with the C. What is it?

Melanie Avalon:
Would it have been the, in chlorella there's nucleic acids? Yes. Was that the one? No.

Vanessa Spina:
Okay. There's chlorophyll. Maybe it's chlorophyll I'm thinking of. Because chlorophyll, I think there's one, no, it's one other antioxidant. Superoxide is glutathione and it's probably going to come to me later. But what's amazing is, you know, our, we make superoxide dismutase in our bodies. Like my children make it. And we make it, I think, until the age of 30. And then our endogenous supply of antioxidants goes way down after the age of 30, which explains why people start really aging after the age of 30. So if I could go back in time, I would have been starting to take this when I turned 29. But I love taking it now because I know that it's like, it's helping support so much free radical damage and buffer that, but superoxide is a crazy free radical. It's like got three unpaired electrons and causes so much damage to your mitochondria. I think it's one of the only antioxidants that gets inside the inner membrane of the mitochondria and helps protect it.

Melanie Avalon:
This is so amazing. I really can't wait to send it to you. Oh my goodness.

Vanessa Spina:
I can't wait to try yours and I can't wait to see the packaging, the mermaid.

Melanie Avalon:
Oh, the mermaid essence. She came together, she pulled through. Yeah, I'm really, really excited about it. And it took us so long to find a source. And I'm obsessed with the source where we found. It's in Hawaii and they only use like the best practices and they're really sustainable. And I'm just really, really excited about it. And then we third party tested it ourselves to make sure it's completely free of pesticides. And we tested for heavy metals and all the things. So because it doesn't have an organic certification, but that's a label that means certain things. So I know that if I can go and check all the things that organic would mean, I feel good about it, if that makes sense. So like I know the raising practices and then I went and tested for all the toxins and things that the organic labels should supposedly protect against. So I know it's up to those standards. So I'm really, really excited about it. So for listeners, if you'd like to get the special launch special, cause we're gonna do a really great launch special for it, definitely make sure you're on my email list. So that is at avalonx.us/emaillist. And you can also get text updates. If you text AVALONX to 877 -861 -8318, that's Avalonx and I'm gonna spell it because all the texts we get are often not this A -V -A -L -O -N -X. We get everything and I'm like, nope, that's not. And I can't like add people. So you have to text that keyword to get added to that list. So yeah, very, very excited. Shall we jump into some fasting things? Sounds great. So to start things off, we have some great questions about longer fasts. We're excited about this because I have some studies and some thoughts and then it's gonna tie into something that we teased about last week if you listened to that episode. So this should be fun. So we have a question from Andrea. This is actually from my Facebook group. So you can join my Facebook group. It's called IF Biohackers and I often will ask for questions in there. And so Andrea asked, what's the truth about occasional long fasts like 36 to 48 hours? I've heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I've also heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I go with what feels good to me, but what are the real facts? And then some other people chimed into that. So Maris said, I would like to know this as well because I do two of them each week. And Kimmy said, I'd like to know more about this also. I've been fasting almost four years and have only done a few 24 hour fasts. I can go longer with no problem at all, but is it too much stress on my 55 year old body?

Vanessa Spina:
It is true that fasting can raise cortisol levels in many people. And so in terms of what we hear of it stressing the body too much, I think that it can be one of those things where if someone already has a very high stress load and maybe already high cortisol, that could be a situation where it could be adding potentially too much stress. However, I think that intermittent fasting and fasting in general also has a hermetic effect, which is similar to the hormesis that we have when we build muscles, we stress our muscles. And that stress is a eustress, it's a positive stress because it makes our muscles stronger when they recover and repair and it makes them bigger and we build stronger, better muscles. So in that same sense, intermittent fasting and even longer fasting, I think can also provide some hormesis where it can actually make us stronger. You know, it can help us sometimes deal with other stresses in our life. And that's sort of a very inter, like person bio individual thing, I would say. Some people may have, you know, the feeling that it stresses them out too much. There's also psychological aspects to it. Whereas if you believe it's gonna stress you or stress your body then, and you firmly believe that, then it's gonna be a stressful experience. You might be white knuckling it through it. You really have to check in with yourself and see how you feel personally. Doing it, do you feel? Like I was talking about the last episode, when I got back into doing it, I felt boundless energy. I felt my little sparks of joy coming back throughout the day. I felt like myself again, I felt like I had way more time way more energy to go do things. I found myself with much enhanced cognition, wanting to listen to more interesting complex things instead of just sort of feeling more sluggish and lethargic when I'm in that fed state, more of the day and wanting more entertainment and less sort of cognitively stimulating things. So for me, I notice right now in my life, it's a really good thing. Maybe at other times it would be more of a stressor. So it's bio individual. It also depends on what's going on currently in your life. And we do know physiologically it can raise cortisol levels in people it tends to, but that can either be a good or a bad thing for you. So I just wanted to make that comment before you talked about the research. And then I have another comment later about the effect on muscle.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome. Thank you. And yeah, I agree so much. I mean, it's a theme of the show is that it's very, you have to find what works for you, especially when it comes to these longer fasts, like they're asking about. I do think I don't want to make blanket statements, but in general, I think with time restricted eating, intermittent fasting that's happening within a day, so not longer than a day, I really think most people can adapt to that and find a pattern that will work for them. With these longer fasts, Andre, I was asking about 36 to 48 hours and I know people often wonder about even longer fasts than that. I definitely think some intuition comes into play and you have to find what works for you. And I did find a really interesting review article. This is actually from May 2024, although it was originally published June 2023, but still for the public, I guess, May 2024, which is very recent. And it's called efficacy and safety of prolonged water fasting, a narrative review of human trials. So it was actually looking to summarize the effects of these longer fasts in people. And so these fasts were five days or more, which is longer than what the listeners were asking about. But I do think it can look at a lot of good mechanisms and definitely things that people might experience in longer fasting, like when you're really getting there, like the five days. And so for that, they found that five to 20 days of fasting increased circulating ketones. It led to mild to moderate weight loss of two to 10%. But that approximately two -thirds of that weight loss was muscle and only one -third was fat. But again, this is a five -day water fast or longer. They said the excessive lean mass loss, I'm quoting from the study, suggests that prolonged fasting may increase the breakdown of muscle proteins, which is a concern. For other health benefits, they found that blood pressure consistently decreased with the fasting. There was mixed findings on cholesterol panels and plasma lipid panels. So they found decreases in cholesterol and triglycerides in some studies, but others didn't find that. As far as their fasting glucose, fasting insulin, insulin resistance, and HbA1c, which is considered to be a marker of longer -term blood sugar based on glycated hemoglobin from high blood sugar levels. And hemoglobin has a turnover rate half -life of three months. So it's typically seen as a three -month marker of your blood sugar status. So that was in people with normal blood sugar levels. Interestingly, for people who had type 1 or type 2 diabetes, they didn't find those changes. I thought that was really interesting. They also looked at the effects of refeeding in a few of the trials, and they found this is also really interesting. So three to four months after people did these longer fasts, the metabolic benefits, so the weight loss could have, like, in some of the trials and some of the people was maintained, but the metabolic benefits weren't. And that actually doesn't surprise me, I can circle back to that. As far as negative side effects they found, they found metabolic acidosis, and this is not in everybody, but they just found these metabolic acidosis, headaches, insomnia, and hunger in some studies. Their conclusion was that prolonged fasting appears to be a moderately safe dietary therapy that can produce clinically significant weight loss over a few days or weeks. However, the ability of these protocols to produce sustained improvements and metabolic markers warrants further investigation. So a few comments I will have there, and again, I want to clarify, super clarify, because I know the question was about shorter fasts in this, and this is talking about five to 20 day fasts. The point about the metabolic benefits not being maintained, I find really interesting but not surprising. So basically what it says to me is, you know, the weight loss can be maintained because you literally lost weight. But these metabolic states that we're in, it's because things that they're measuring, like ketones, blood sugar, insulin resistance, cholesterol, triglycerides, that's not something where you can like set it up and then be good to go if you don't maintain a lifestyle that's supporting that. Like those markers change very fast. Even the cholesterol panels, so even when I interviewed Azure Grant, she was a researcher and she did a lot of work on trials that were involved with ORA ring. I actually was introduced to her through the former CEO at ORA, his name was Harpreet. One of the studies she was on was so fascinating to me and it was they basically checked people's cholesterol panels, like consistently throughout the day for a few days. And the amount of change that they saw, like even within a day, was so interesting. And it really made me like think differently about when you get your cholesterol panels done at, you know, on a blood drop because it's just a transient moment in time. And I remember there was a sentence in that paper saying that for every single participant, at least one marker of their lipid panel went out of range or went into like a problematic range at some point during the day, which is like, and again, that's, you know, that population study. it just goes to show the point of it and how it relates to the study I'm talking about right now is that these things change so fast. And so it's not surprising to me that, you know, you go on this extended water fast and then you see all these beneficial changes. And then if you check three to four months later, really not surprising to me that people don't have those effects anymore, especially if they're not continuing their, any sort of fasting protocol. I find it really interesting though, that even with all of everything that they found on these super long fasts that are longer than these questions that we got asked about, they still concluded with all of that, that it's a moderately safe diet therapy. So if you're looking at fasting even less than that, like 36 to 48 hours, I think the same conclusion would obviously apply to that as well. I will just speak a little bit more to my own thoughts on it. A lot of the fasting proponents and researchers out there, like recently I've been interviewing both Dr. Mindy big advocates of having these longer fasts within a person's protocol, especially for women. I know Dr. Peltz in particular really likes fasting for older women and menopausal women in particular. She thinks it pairs really well with that. And you can check out past episodes because recently we talked a lot about that. We talked a lot about sinking fasting to your cycle, whether or not you should do that. Vanessa and I personally don't really change surrounding our cycles. Well, I do think it can work for a lot of people if that's their cup of tea and works for them. So long story short, my thoughts on this, my thoughts on occasional long fasts. I agree with Andrea. She said, I heard it's great for you if you're fat adapted, keep electrolytes up and eat hearty following the fast. I agree 100% with that. And then her comment about she's heard it's terrible because it stresses your body too much. I think Vanessa did a really good job talking about that, what our perception is surrounding stress. That was a really great analysis what Vanessa gave. And the role of cortisol and a hermetic beneficial stress versus too much stress. And like Vanessa was saying, I think you have to look at your overall dietary stress load bucket. And it's very possible that something that is technically or normally would be a hermetic beneficial stress. If your stress bucket is full to the brim and you're just running on stress hormones and you're emotionally stressed and maybe even under eating or all of the different things, then too much fasting might be too much stress. Because in that context, it's no longer hermetic. It's too much for your body. But then I love what Andrea said. She said she goes with what feels good to her. I agree. Listen to your body. Your body can speak to you about what works best. And so like for Maurice, for example, who's she does two of them each week, if that's working for you and like you're feeling good. I mean, keep on keeping on. And so for Kimmy, for example, who she's been fasting almost four years and she's only done a few 24 hour fasts and she felt like she could go longer with no problem. But she's worried about it being too much stress on her 55 year old body. I personally, again, I'm not a doctor, but I feel like if you feel like you keep going longer with no problem, like try it. And you might see a lot of benefits from it. So Vanessa, what are your thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
I wanted to comment on the concept of fasting being bad for muscle after the age of 40 because Dr. Don Lehman is someone who you know I really look to for a lot of these recommendations and he said if you're past 40 he really doesn't recommend it because he said it can cause too much lean body mass loss or muscle loss and usually it's too difficult at that point to put it back on especially past the age of 40 we don't have the same hormones that we have when we're younger when it's a lot easier to put muscle on and so you know he said it's sort of like you know every day you're losing bricks from a wall you know if you fast you're gonna accelerate that process and then you're not gonna get them back but I heard him say that he considers extended fasting to be over 48 hours and I didn't realize before when he was just talking about fasting that that's what he was qualifying it as so it's interesting because usually when you look at some of the charts you know on on extended fasting you see that it's after three days that the proteolysis or the lysis or breakdown of protein goes way down and you're mostly burning fat after those first three days you actually do break down a lot of protein but some of that is autophagy in the first three days but he says that up to 48 hours he doesn't really consider extended fasting so that means he's saying that up to 48 hours fast are probably fine on your muscle if you're even if you're over 40 so it was a little clarification point I wanted to mention because I think a lot of people have questions about that it's really important I think to do resistance training if maintaining your lean body mass is really important to you and you want to make sure that you're still offering a stimulus to muscle protein synthesis without ingesting protein because that's the other like like you can lift weights or you can eat protein both of those stimulant muscle protein synthesis but if you're not eating and you're doing a fast say up to 48 hours then you want to do some resistance training if you are concerned about not being able to signal muscle protein synthesis that can definitely help with it but I just thought it was interesting I didn't realize that that was what he considered to be sort of that threshold for when you get into the danger zone for losing muscles so seems that under 48 hours is fine according to him if you're over 40 and you don't want to lose muscle mass

Melanie Avalon:
I think one of the primary issues we have in the intermittent fasting world is just how many different words there are for different things and the lack of consensus surrounding definitions. Yes. Especially even intermittent fasting, we call it so many different things, like intermittent fasting, time -restricted eating, time -restricted feeding. And what's really interesting, I find this interesting, because I'll read a lot of books and sometimes they'll go through and they'll define each one of those. And sometimes it'll be a very specific definition. And I'm like, where did that come from? Is that like your definition of that word, you know? Like for example, Megan Ramos in her book, I'd have to look at my notes, but she defined intermittent fasting as I really would have to look. Basically the definitions were just not, they were not what I would have called intermittent fasting or time -restricted feeding. And it was all, I'm really happy that she defined it because that's really helpful for reading her book. It's like, okay, so when I read her book and I hear what she says, I'll know what she's referring to. So I think it's great that she does that. And she's definitely has her definition for it. I just think it's a big problem for the intermittent fasting world at large that we don't agree on these definitions. Like somebody needs to like step up and like, I don't know, to find them.

Vanessa Spina:
It's one of my biggest frustrations, especially when you're reading research. And you and I have talked about that, the study will say intermittent fasting and it's not, it's something completely different. And just the fact that there is no consensus is, I think it, yeah, it's definitely needs some clarification. Although it's interesting, when I was interviewing Dr. Sachin Panda who basically put time restricted feeding on the map, he says they're basically the same, like he had a definition for it. You could do intermittent fasting in some ways without having the same like time restricted eating pattern. Like for him, it's really about the patterns, but yeah, it would really serve us to have just a little bit more consensus on these definitions.

Melanie Avalon:
or even like ADF, for example, alternate day fasting, I feel like there's two pretty accepted versions of that. And in one version, you don't need anything on the fasting day. And in the other version, you eat like up to 500 calories, which I just feel like is very different signaling if you're not eating at all versus eating some. Or for example, like the ones where it's intermittent fasting but then they're like consuming stuff, but it's fasting.

Vanessa Spina:
That drives me crazy. That's what I was thinking of when we were, you know, talking, you know, because I mean, people get excited about like new studies, you know, in this area. And then even when you talk to the study author and you're like, why did you call this intermittent fasting when it's caloric restriction? And it seems like some people, even though they've been working in the field for a long time, they don't really either they, they don't know there's a difference, which is concerning, or they do know, and they don't care, which is like also

Melanie Avalon:
It's just confusing. So I'm looking through my Megan Ramos notes to see what... Yeah, I want to know what the definition was. My notes that I have, so she considered time -restricted eating is certain hours. It's not intermittent fasting. They're different things. Like she recommends time -restricted eating on days that you're not fasting. So they're like completely different. And I'm trying to remember what she said about what intermittent fasting was, but I don't think I have it in my notes. But yeah, so definitions friends, definitions. Yeah. Do you think we adequately answered that question?

Vanessa Spina:
Yeah, I think so from all angles. I think from the stress perspective, you know, and that bio individuality and then the length of the fast and then concerns with muscle loss. And I think that that's probably a lot of what our listeners in this community are concerned with. So yeah, I think so.

Melanie Avalon:
Awesome, I think we can briefly answer one last question. Super short, and it's from Michelle. She wants to know, does taking glutathione break a fast? I can answer this, or do you have thoughts?

Vanessa Spina:
My answer is yes. I mean, because it is basically made up of three different amino acids, so I would definitely keep it in the eating window.

Melanie Avalon:
Yes. Okay. So my thoughts, I would agree. I will say though to comment on this, because I think a lot of people take oral glutathione. And ever since I interviewed Dr. Nayan Patel, he has a company called Auro Wellness. He has a really fascinating book about glutathione, like I learned more about glutathione than I ever thought I could learn. And he makes a really good case that taking oral glutathione supplements, they realistically do not get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. Even IV glutathione doesn't get into your cells. It just goes through your bloodstream. So I really encourage people not to take oral glutathione supplements anyways. I know they're expensive, and I encourage people not to take IV glutathione. It's very, very temporary and transient. And I also talked to my friend James Clement about that, because I really, really trust him. He does a lot of longevity -related lab work. I had him on my show for a book called The Switch years and years ago, and we became buddies. I love him. I'm just laughing, because I tried to convince him to go with me to the Veronica's concert, because he loves the Veronica's. But in any case, back to the glutathione. So Dr. Patel makes a transdermal glutathione, and they have studies showing that it actually gets into the cell. I love this stuff. I use it all the time, especially after a night out, you know, drinking a bit of wine. So for that, you can go to MelanieAvalon.com/auro. So A -U -R -O. And you can actually bulk up their, I didn't realize this until, because I post about them all the time on Instagram, and they sent me a DM this week. And they said, you guys can actually be doubling up your coupon codes, which is amazing. So you can get 15% off if you double up the codes. So use the code MelanieAvalon, that will get you 5%. And then also add the code Auro10, A -U -R -O -10, that will get you 10%. So then you'll get 15% off. So definitely take advantage of that. And the reason I love this is because it completely avoids the question of does it break your fast, because you are doing it transdermally, you're putting it on your skin. So there's not even the worry of it breaking your fast. So that is my answer to that question. All right, anything else, Vanessa?

Vanessa Spina:
I loved all of these topics on this episode on the last one. I can't wait for more. I just love all the great questions that we get and it's so much fun to chat about these studies with you.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. I really I love that we love all the same things. It's so amazing. So thank you to all the listeners for being here. If you would like to submit your own questions for the show, you can directly email questions@ifpodcast.com or you can go to ifpodcast.com. You can submit questions there. You can get the show notes at ifpodcast.com/episode373. Those show notes will have a full transcript and have links to everything that we talked about. So that will be super helpful. And you can follow us on Instagram. We are @ifpodcast. I am @MelanieAvalon. Vanessa is @ketogenicgirl. I think that is all the things. Anything from you, Vanessa, before we go?

Vanessa Spina:
I don't think so. I had such a great time and can't wait to record with you next week.

Melanie Avalon:
Me too. Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Bye.

Melanie Avalon:
Thank you so much for listening to the Intermittent Fasting Podcast. Please remember, everything we discussed on this show does not constitute medical advice and no patient-doctor relationship is formed. If you enjoyed the show, please consider writing a review on iTunes. We couldn't do this without our amazing team. Administration by Sharon Merriman, editing by Podcast Doctors, show notes and artwork by Brianna Joyner, and original theme composed by Leland Cox and recomposed by Steve Saunders.

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